The PS cannot rid itself of its racists because it would commit political hara-kiri

by , under Enrique

It’s been interesting to read how some Perussuomalaiset (PS) party members suddenly feel overwhelmed by the most recent racism scandal to rock the party. PS MP Tom Packalén asks in tabloid Iltalehti what should be done? Answer: For a start, why not sack them?

The other option is to defect from the PS like Kontiolahti councilwoman Mirva Hyttinen did on Sunday. She defected from the party after PS councilman Mika Hiltunen slandered refugees on Facebook by labeling them as social bums and rapists.

“I meet foreign people at work on a daily basis, and I cannot accept this type of intolerance,” she said.

How would any sensible person react if somebody labeled and victimized refugees as rapists that should chemically castrate such people as PS Uusimaa regional board member Kai Haavisto suggested? What about if like PS MP James Hirvisaari claimed that gang rape in South Africa was a genetic trait and a national pastime?

Here’s the million-euro question: Why doesn’t the PS sack those members who are openly racist (and there are many of them)?

The answer shouldn’t surprise us:  Racism and nationalism give the PS its political strength. How do you think they rose from nowhere to become Finland’s third-largest party in parliament?

Do I believe that the PS regrets what Haavisto and Hirvisaari wrote? If they did, they’d sack both of them from the party.

But this won’t happen because sacking racists from the PS would be synonymous with committing political hara-kiri.

Kuvankaappaus 2013-1-20 kello 21.28.48
Even if the PS uses rape statistics to justify its racism, it forgets that one of its party heavyweights, Matti Putkonen, was sentenced to eight months in prison in 1990 for rape.

Racism, xenophobia, and intolerance are powerful political forces in Europe these days. PS head Timo Soini understands this perfectly well. That is why he will not sack Haavisto and Hirvisaari from the PS. If we look at Soini’s track record on racism, we’d see a very long trail of broken promises and outright deceptions.

Remember when Soini said that any party member sentenced for hate speech would be banned? Remember when he played down racism in the PS to “one, two or three” cases? Remember when he scolded the foreign media, especially from Sweden, for giving the “wrong” picture of the party?

So many scandals have hit the party since the April 2011 election that we’ve lost count on Migrant Tales. And so have many others.

The PS reveal a lot of things about Finland. For one, it exposes racism as a much bigger problem in this country that some have wanted to believe.

If we are fair, all Finnish parties have their fair share of racists. Even so, no party has capitalized and given a platform to racists as the PS.

Even after the Kai Haavisto-James Hirvisaari blows over, we’ll be back to square one: nothing will happen.

Why?

Because the PS will not commit political hara-kiri.

The Finnish name for the Finns Party is the Perussuomalaiset (PS). The English names of the party adopted by the PS, like True Finns or Finns Party, promote in our opinion nativist nationalism and xenophobia. We, therefore, prefer to use the Finnish name of the party on our postings. The direct translation of “Perussuomalaiset” is “basic” or “fundamental Finn.” 

  1. Farang

    The answer shouldn’t surprise us: Racism and nationalism give the PS its political strength. How do you think they rose from obscurity to become Finland’s third-largest part in parliament?

    And this is where your problem is. You concentrate on PS as a party, while you should be worried about the people who vote for them.

    As long as PS gets votes, it means they are doing something right. You can’t deny people their right to vote.

    If you have problem with people voting for PS, you shouldn’t blame PS, but you should be thinking what are the reasons why people vote for them.

    Finland needs PS, it has already been proved in last elections.

    • Enrique Tessieri

      –And this is where your problem is. You concentrate on PS as a party, while you should be worried about the people who vote for them.

      Double-talk?

      Racism is a problem you’ll find in all parties in Finland. It’s widespread. The PS, however, is the only party in modern times that uses racism to lure voters. You may say that it has tapped a source other parties haven’t tried using to such extent as the PS.

    • D4R

      Yes they did something right to gain political power wich is to fish as many racist as they can to vote for them and that turned out to be victory for them, i don’t understand why’re they all of sudden crying about their racist politicians representing of who they’re. We all expected these kind of incidents to take place and we we will expect more to come. It’s amazing how some people are trying to sugarcoat PS party and it’s members, why can’t they just admit of who they’re period.

    • Mark

      Farang

      As long as PS gets votes, it means they are doing something right. You can’t deny people their right to vote.

      Just because someone votes for your policy doesn’t make it automatically right or any part of it. All it does is confirm that the politician shares views with a voter. If the politician is seen to be a racist bigot, then clearly the people that vote for him or her are likewise probably racist bigots. Right to vote? I think you are confusing one ‘right’ with ‘another’.

      If you have problem with people voting for PS, you shouldn’t blame PS, but you should be thinking what are the reasons why people vote for them.

      Why is it an either/or? Either we blame the voter or the politician? Why not condemn both for basing their political activism on an irrational hatred of foreigners or blacks?

      Finland needs PS, it has already been proved in last elections.

      Like Germany needed Nazism? I don’t think so!

  2. Farang

    Racism is a problem you’ll find in all parties in Finland. It’s widespread. The PS, however, is the only party in modern times that uses racism to lure voters. You may say that it has tapped a source other parties haven’t tried using to such extent as the PS.

    But that is a good thing for the racists, now they have a party that will drive their agenda.

    I don’t see PS luring voters with racism any worse than other parties luring their voters with lies. For example SDP lured voters by saying they don’t support the monetary support for Greece & co. but after they got elected they totally ignored this promise.

    Atleast PS is honest to their voters.

    There are lots of people in Finland who doesn’t want freeride-Finns in here and in democracy these people have every right to have their representatives in parliament.

    • Mark

      Farang

      I don’t see PS luring voters with racism any worse than other parties luring their voters with lies.

      Of course not, you don’t have any moral conscience, so why would you?

      At least PS is honest to their voters.

      Like Soini was honest in saying that any convicted racist would be kicked out? Hardly!

  3. Joonas

    Yes they did something right to gain political power wich is to fish as many racist as they can to vote for them and that turned out to be victory for them,

    Well, I would say that racism did not help to boost their popularity. I think it is more about the fact they were the only party in the election who were strongly against the EU bailouts. At least that was the main theme in their campaign.

    • Enrique Tessieri

      –Well, I would say that racism did not help to boost their popularity. I think it is more about the fact they were the only party in the election who were strongly against the EU bailouts.

      This is debatable. Some. like Timo Soini, will tell you that anti-immigration sentiment was a minor factor. The anti-EU vote played a bigger role.

      I tend to think that the latter is true but the former does play an important role. The role of the anti-immigration vote is so important that the PS doesn’t do anything significant to ban it from the party.

  4. Joonas

    I tend to think that the latter is true but the former does play an important role. The role of the anti-immigration vote is so important that the PS doesn’t do anything significant to ban it from the party.

    If I remember right, all debates were mostly about EU bailouts before the election. I do not remember debates about immigration, but my memory might deceive me. However, I do think some people voted them because of their immigration policy.

    But yes, I do find it also “strange” they don’t sack the most extreme members from the party.

    • Mark

      Joonas

      If that was true, then PS politicians that fought specifically on an anti-EU agenda would have gained more support than PS politicians that are well-known more for their anti-immigration stance. Perhaps you could confirm this one way or the other?

  5. Farang

    Why is it an either/or? Either we blame the voter or the politician? Why not condemn both for basing their political activism on an irrational hatred of foreigners or blacks?

    Because people have right to hate whatever they want. And in democracy they have every right to vote for politics that would suit with their hatred.

    • Mark

      Farang

      Because people have right to hate whatever they want. And in democracy they have every right to vote for politics that would suit with their hatred.

      You are giving the answer to the wrong question. This is an answer to the question of whether it should be legal that people can vote for a party like the PS, and the answer, as you suggest, is of course YES, whether we like it or not. But that is not the question that is being asked, Farang.

      The question is whether that kind of motivation to vote based on deep prejudice should go unchallenged. And the answer is a very definite no! It should be condemned, as leading towards a society that is divided and segregated, where certain groups are marginalised and discriminated against.

      It is interesting to hear some Finns talk about the Roma here, and the idea that the Roma lifestyle perpetuates their marginalisation. This is so much taken for granted that the historical persecution of Roma is totally forgotten. And here we are, at the beginning of another chapter in Finland’s contacts with ‘foreigners’ arriving on these shores, and we have the opportunity to avoid that kind of marginalised and poor community of ‘others’ by promoting tolerant integration, and what is happening? Stigmatisation and racist ranting. It is a damn sight easier to try to fix this problem now than to face its effects in 100 years time. And the idea that it can be avoided totally by closing Finland’s door is simply turning a blind eye to the modern world! That’s the same approach that tells women that they shouldn’t go outdoors if they don’t want to get raped, which is something you were doing last week, if I remember right! What did you call it ‘risk management’?

  6. Farang

    Like Soini was honest in saying that any convicted racist would be kicked out? Hardly!

    Well, there are no CONVICTED RACISTS in PS, so so far Soini has kept his promise.

    • Mark

      Farang

      Well, there are no CONVICTED RACISTS in PS, so so far Soini has kept his promise.

      OH my, …..God! If you tell a big enough lie…..

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      Well, there are no CONVICTED RACISTS in PS, so so far Soini has kept his promise.

      You know that this is not true, Farang. PS member Jussi Halla-aho was convicted of ethnic agitation by the Supreme Court of Finland last year (judgement KKO:2012:58 issued on 8 June 2012). This judgement is legally final. Halla-aho is therefore a convicted racist, but he remains a member of the PS parliamentary caucus. Soini has accordingly broken his promise to expel convicted racists from the party.

      Let’s just remind ourselves of the offence in question. At the time when the offence was committed section 10 of chapter 11 of the Finnish Penal Code read as follows:

      Section 10 – Ethnic agitation
      A person who spreads statements or other information among the public where a certain national, ethnic, racial or religious group or a comparable population group is threatened, defamed or insulted shall be sentenced for ethnic agitation to a fine or to imprisonment for at most two years.

      (Translation by the Ministry of Justice)

      Ethnic agitation is a paradigm example of a racist offence. It is the only regular offence in the Penal Code that cannot be aggravated under subparagraph 4 of paragraph 1 of section 5 of chapter 6 of the Penal Code, where the aggravating circumstance is “directing of the offence at a person belonging to a national, racial, ethnic or other population group due to his or her membership in such a group”, i.e. motivation by racism. Such aggravation is not possible because motivation by racism is already a core element of the offence of ethnic agitation.

  7. Farang

    Mark

    The question is whether that kind of motivation to vote based on deep prejudice should go unchallenged. And the answer is a very definite no! It should be condemned, as leading towards a society that is divided and segregated, where certain groups are marginalised and discriminated against.

    You still don’t get the point. If some people want that kind of society, they are entitled to pursue it. That is democracy. If enough people (over 50 %) wants that kind of society, then it should be. As long as they are not majority, it’s only their wish and goal, but so far they have right to have them and nobody should be feeling superior to them in order to condemn that. Anyone who condemns that, is not respecting democracy.

    That’s the same approach that tells women that they shouldn’t go outdoors if they don’t want to get raped, which is something you were doing last week, if I remember right! What did you call it ‘risk management’?

    I have never said women shouldn’t go outdoors and I never will. My opinion is quite the opposite. We should take care of the problems so that women can be safe when they are outdoors.

    It’s funny how you tried to twist my comment of risk management to some sick way mean a transfer of responsibility. If person A can do something to avoid getting into situation where he is robbed, it doesn’t mean that he is responsible of being robbed if that happens. Those two things have nothing to do with each other and I was pretty clear on that. Still you insisted to twist is like I would mean something else. That is your way to distract conversation when you are losing and can’t give any counterarguments.

    • Mark

      Farang

      You still don’t get the point. If some people want that kind of society, they are entitled to pursue it.

      You are still answering a question that no-one here asked. No-one asked that democracy stops working or being applied. By ranting on about democracy and the right to vote, you simply sideline yourself from the debate, Farang, and make yourself look like an ass! Get with the program!

      nobody should be feeling superior to them

      So, when people are exercising their God-given right to racist clap-trap, no-one is allowed to feel superior? hahahahah! Yeah, right….!

      I have never said women shouldn’t go outdoors and I never will.

      You said that women have to weigh up the risks of getting raped, and clearly, staying indoors (as long as it isn’t with your Finnish husband) carries the least risk, so this MUST be the course of action that you recommend for women! Or are you now taking it back that women should weigh up the risks of getting raped?

      It’s funny how you tried to twist my comment of risk management to some sick way mean a transfer of responsibility

      Well, let’s see now Farang, did you stop for one second to talk about what MEN should do differently to stop women getting raped? Nope. You spoke only of women weighing up the risks and giving them dubious and misleading data about immigrants and sexual assault to help them in that endeavour. In fact, I can tell you categorically that you did not say ANYTHING about making it safer outdoors for women. I guess you learnt something in the last week since we had that conversation. Or maybe, just maybe, my argument actually registed in that thick skull of yours and you’ve actually changed your focus on this issue, though of course you won’t give Migrant Tales any credit if that were the case!

      Those two things have nothing to do with each other

      So much for learning. Except in this case they have a lot to do with each other, and if you paid any attention to what women have been saying to men the last 40 years about the issue of rape, safety and responsibility, you would understand that asking a woman to ‘weigh up the risks’ is considered to be shifting responsibility. Don’t take it up with me, take it up with women’s groups and women!!!

      That is your way to distract conversation when you are losing and can’t give any counterarguments.

      hahaha. I’ll let people make their own mind up about that one!

  8. Farang

    JusticeDemon

    You know that this is not true, Farang. PS member Jussi Halla-aho was convicted of ethnic agitation by the Supreme Court of Finland last year (judgement KKO:2012:58 issued on 8 June 2012). This judgement is legally final.

    You try to be clever but you fail miserably. Yes, Halla-aho is convicted of ethnic agitation, but that has nothing to do with racism. So that conviction has nothing to do with racism.

    I don’t understand your loging. Ethnic agitation does not equal with racism.

    And to your knowledge, racism isn’t even crime in Finland, so nobody can be convicted of racism.

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      Yes, Halla-aho is convicted of ethnic agitation, but that has nothing to do with racism. So that conviction has nothing to do with racism.
      I don’t understand your loging. Ethnic agitation does not equal with racism.
      And to your knowledge, racism isn’t even crime in Finland, so nobody can be convicted of racism.

      It is amusing to see the Hompanzees trying to wriggle out of this one.

      The most obvious observation on your absurdly evasive interpretation, Farang, is to ask you precisely which offences Soini was talking about when he publicly declared that anyone involved in the work of his party who is convicted of racism will be expelled from the party.

      Is it really your view that Soini issued a wilfully duplicitous statement on this subject by deliberately referring to a criminal offence that does not exist? Is this really in the same league as Bill Clinton’s famous declaration?

      The context of Soini’s promise could not be more evident. It is quite clear which offence and even which specific offender were under discussion when Soini made his promise in February 2009, and Soini in no way objected to the Iltalehti headline: “Timo Soini: A criminal conviction will get Halla-aho fired”. Soini’s remarks specifically referred to the ethnic agitation offence of Halla-aho, which was under prosecutorial consideration at the time. Halla-aho was eventually convicted of that specific offence.

      As I indicated above, ethnic agitation is the paradigm racist offence in the Finnish Penal Code.

      Your insistence that ethnic agitation is not racism comes down to the view that someone who expresses and insists on racist views is not a racist. Looks like you have a serious case of pathological denial.

  9. Farang

    So much for learning. Except in this case they have a lot to do with each other, and if you paid any attention to what women have been saying to men the last 40 years about the issue of rape, safety and responsibility, you would understand that asking a woman to ‘weigh up the risks’ is considered to be shifting responsibility. Don’t take it up with me, take it up with women’s groups and women!!!

    I even gave you another example, which didn’t even involve women, but you decided to leave that example out so that you can try to twist around this feminist issue.

    Even now that I have cleared out that I don’t held women responsible, you still continue to argue about that.

    In order to get rid of rapes, we need to get rapists out from the streets. But as long as they are there people should know about them and be careful. Being careful doesn’t shift responsibility in any direction.

    Why didn’t you comment my other example about getting robbed? I know why, because the rape example was just easier for you to start twisting about. You don’t have any real argument, you just keep going because you can’t admit that you are wrong.

    If you really are honest person, then you should be able to answer this:

    If there was a shooter lose in Helsinki and police would warn people of moving outside, would you be shouting to the police that they can’t say that because people have every right to be outside and that would be shifting responsibility of getting shot to the possible victims?

    Summary: It’s not shifting responsibility if you teach people to be careful.

    • Mark

      Farang

      I even gave you another example, which didn’t even involve women, but you decided to leave that example out so that you can try to twist around this feminist issue.

      Look, deal with the issues as is, without inventing examples that have little relevance. You are ignoring women and what they say about this topic, and no amount of inventing examples to explain your logic gets away from that fact.

      Even now that I have cleared out that I don’t held women responsible, you still continue to argue about that.

      Yep, and this was where we left off last time; you refusing to accept what women have to say on this issue. It’s quite ludicrous that you are prepared to dictate to women on issues of rape and then just because you say that you are not holding women responsible, that makes it all OKAY, just as long as they keep doing what you tell them to, which is to make risk assessments about rape situations!!!!! You really don’t get it, do you? Unbelievable dense, you are!

      In order to get rid of rapes, we need to get rapists out from the streets.

      This is now a new tactic from you. Of course, it’s total bullshit. What about the rapists in the home? That is where the vast majority of rape takes place in Finland. And exactly how do you get ‘rapists’ off the street? Lock up potential rapists, or chemically castrate immigrants, like Kai Haavisto suggests? That barely deserves a reply, but I’m really interested to know how you keep rapists off the street.

      The irony is that rape sentencing in Finland is a joke by international standards. Only last year Amnesty International once again called for Finland to look at rape sentencing and the practice of using more lenient legal definitions of rape even in cases that involved extreme violence, resulting in lenient sentencing, and often with the justification that a woman had been drinking beforehand. Once again, the woman is made responsible in some way for the rape. It’s just unbelievable that some men in Finland (you included) are so ignorant of this issue (including the police) that it takes an organisation like Amnesty International to try to spell it out to them!!!!

      I know why, because the rape example was just easier for you to start twisting about. You don’t have any real argument, you just keep going because you can’t admit that you are wrong.

      That’s the irony here, you think you are arguing with me, when all I am doing is trying to put you straight on how WOMEN have viewed this issue. And yet you still try to argue with me as if this is about you and I.

      If there was a shooter lose in Helsinki and police would warn people of moving outside, would you be shouting to the police that they can’t say that because people have every right to be outside and that would be shifting responsibility of getting shot to the possible victims?

      Two things. First, the assumption is that the police would very quickly catch the shooter and people staying indoors is a temporary matter. Second, the idea is that everyone is affected equally, men and women – this is not the case in rape, where women are the only sex to suffer this kind of public terror. Third, your example is temporary, but what if this is a permanent issue, that you would be asking the public to stay indoors permanently? By asking women to take responsibility for the ‘risk’ of being raped, you have failed women. End of.

      Summary: It’s not shifting responsibility if you teach people to be careful.

      Anyone who chooses to see rape in this light is a scumbag. Why don’t you teach men not to rape? You haven’t said anything about that! No, you teach women to ‘be careful’, which effectively means to live in a state of terror. And you want women to think that you are on their side? Wake up, you arrogant male prick!

  10. Farang

    Mark

    This is now a new tactic from you. Of course, it’s total bullshit. What about the rapists in the home? That is where the vast majority of rape takes place in Finland. And exactly how do you get ‘rapists’ off the street? Lock up potential rapists, or chemically castrate immigrants, like Kai Haavisto suggests? That barely deserves a reply, but I’m really interested to know how you keep rapists off the street.

    Here it comes. You admit that we can’t get rapists off the street. Then it’s fair to ask, why are you so against advising people to be cautious?

    The irony is that rape sentencing in Finland is a joke by international standards. Only last year Amnesty International once again called for Finland to look at rape sentencing and the practice of using more lenient legal definitions of rape even in cases that involved extreme violence, resulting in lenient sentencing, and often with the justification that a woman had been drinking beforehand. Once again, the woman is made responsible in some way for the rape. It’s just unbelievable that some men in Finland (you included) are so ignorant of this issue (including the police) that it takes an organisation like Amnesty International to try to spell it out to them!!!!

    I don’t know why you put that (you included) there, because this chapter was something that I fully agree with you.

    That’s the irony here, you think you are arguing with me, when all I am doing is trying to put you straight on how WOMEN have viewed this issue. And yet you still try to argue with me as if this is about you and I.

    You only think you know how women view this. It’s only the voice of those loud feminist that somehow see it offensive to advice women of being careful.

    Normal sensible woman understand that it’s never allowed to rape a woman, but they also understand that they can themselves do something to make rape less propable. Same way as each of us can avoid situations to get robbed or beaten. That is common sense. Somehown you have lost that when you talk about rape and women.

    Why don’t you teach men not to rape? You haven’t said anything about that! No, you teach women to ‘be careful’, which effectively means to live in a state of terror. And you want women to think that you are on their side? Wake up, you arrogant male prick!

    It’s unbelievable what you can actually say. Are you seriously asking that question? Mark really knows everything 😀 We can end crimes today, let’s just teach all people not to commit crimes. Please come back to reality.

    Let’s take you for example, maybe that way you could get some sense in this:

    Let’s say some violent person approaches you with a hammer and says he is going to hit you. Which one would make more sense:
    a) Teach the person not to hit you?
    b) You get away?

    • Mark

      Farang

      Here it comes. You admit that we can’t get rapists off the street. Then it’s fair to ask, why are you so against advising people to be cautious?

      As if those were the only two responses possible here, either we get the rapists off the street (impossible) or we ask women to be constantly assessing risk in public places (completely unfair to women). The other alternative is that men work actively to make rape unacceptable. You haven’t discussed that option at all. I wonder why?

      You only think you know how women view this. It’s only the voice of those loud feminist that somehow see it offensive to advice women of being careful.

      Oh fuck off, Farang! Only loud feminists? So that means you can ignore them? You make me sick, you chauvenistic prick! You don’t stop to think for one second how it feels for a woman to walk the streets at night. Do you consider it a human right that a woman can walk safely through the streets at any time of day? Or do you think that a woman that walks the streets alone in ‘some’ areas is inviting trouble, i.e. inviting rape?

      but they also understand that they can themselves do something to make rape less propable.

      Fucking unbelievable….you are still talking about what WOMEN should do to avoid being raped and not for a second talking about MEN REFUSING TO RAPE! Are you really this thick, Farang? Or just fucking stubborn to the point of completely ignoring all arguments that might force you to adjust your world view? Remember, you jumped on this rape issue as a way to bash immigrants, but the truth is that you are not one bit interested in women or women’s rights!! You are a manipulative person that uses what little intellect he has to perpetuate prejudice!!!

      Mark really knows everything We can end crimes today, let’s just teach all people not to commit crimes. Please come back to reality.

      I see. So the most obvious solution here, which is that men change their behaviour towards women is something that you refuse to even think about? That is somehow unrealistic? You are a male prick of the highest order!!!! I wouldn’t trust my kids (grown up or otherwise) around you for a second!!!!!

      Your examples are a nonsense….are you on drugs?

  11. khr

    I have to side with Farang now a bit. Everyone takes risks all the time, some of those more calculated than others. Just because some behaviours puts one more in risk of being victim of a crime, does not justify the crime. Neither is stating that some things are more risky than others defending the crime.

    The measures that mitigate the risk of stranger rape (yes, I’m aware that’s not the majority of rapes) are mostly the same that men can, and usually do (typically unconsciously) take to avoid violence. The exception being the one about sexy clothing, which is incidentally the useless one, as it does nothing to reduce the opportunity. The rapist is looking for a victim that can’t escape or defend herself, not a victim in a miniskirt.

    Timing and situation is very important though, when talking about risk management. It is too late to start talking about reducing the risk once the crime has happened. It reeks of victim blaming, even if that wasn’t the purpose.

    Talking about teaching men to not rape has a serious problem of preaching to the choir. The vast majority of men would not rape anyway, but they’d be the only ones listening to the “advice”. It’s not the men that adhere to the rules of the society that create the problem, but those that do not.

    • Mark

      khr

      Everyone takes risks all the time, some of those more calculated than others.

      Well you are a man, aren’t you, and that implies a general laziness towards this issue. I mean, if men weren’t so fucking lazy about this issue, then perhaps women wouldn’t get raped so often.

    • Mark

      khr

      It’s not the men that adhere to the rules of the society that create the problem, but those that do not.

      And why is it that more men do not kill or rape their mothers then? I mean, they are women, and they are subject to violence, so why don’t men rape and kill their mothers if it is only a matter of not adhering to the rules of society?

    • Mark

      khr

      Maybe you don’t intend it, but you seem to suggest that male rape of women is some kind of ‘uncontrollable chaos’ that lies beyond rules. I would say that is just not true. The rule is that men satisfy their urges regardless of what women want, and that this is in part acceptable, that men view their own urges as so primeval and fundamental that any questioning of those urges or any sense that men must or should control those urges is always prefaced with the ‘man as wild beaast’ narrative, as if that explains away everything. Or are you seriously trying to suggest that all rape is actually just men being insane?

  12. khr

    Well you are a man, aren’t you, and that implies a general laziness towards this issue. I mean, if men weren’t so fucking lazy about this issue, then perhaps women wouldn’t get raped so often.

    Perhaps, but for most men there aren’t all that much they can realistically do that they don’t already do (or, rather, don’t do). It’s not like rapists advertise what they are (for two reasons: firstly women would know to be wary of them specifically, and secondly they’d be in serious danger from the other men, who generally don’t like rapists). Men would need better means to help than “don’t rape”, as that’s an advice they already follow.

    • Mark

      khr

      Men would need better means to help than “don’t rape”, as that’s an advice they already follow.

      Keep telling yourself this. And meanwhile, the internet is alive with porn that puts women in submission to men’s whims. Come on, khr, have you never wondered about what makes other men tick in this way?

      The idea that ‘rape’ is something that goes on outside of the realms of the ‘normal’ is just self-deception. For a fact, I have been in too many converations where the ‘no’ that women say is interpreted as a ‘yes’, that I am left wondering just what women have to say to get the message across to some men. It’s argued that they like to play ‘hard to get’. I don’t know how old you are, because perhaps you are of a generation where this argument is dated, but I’ve heard it too many times to blind myself to the very real implications of it.

      Second, I have also listened to several ‘frustrated males’ talk about the lack of a sex life in their marriage, with real anger and frustration…the kind of anger and frustration that all too easily blinds one to the consequences of one’s actions. Rape is not something that exists ‘out there’, it exists in the very real attitudes and experiences of ordinary men…because rape is too common to simply blame it on the ‘nutters’. Make this realisation khr, and you will be a little bit further on in this debate…

  13. Farang

    Mark

    The other alternative is that men work actively to make rape unacceptable. You haven’t discussed that option at all. I wonder why?

    What in earth are you talking about? Rape already is unacceptable, there is nothing to discuss. People know it’s unacceptable.

    Newsflash for you: There are bad people on this planet, they will do bad things even if they are unacceptable. Get serious!

    You don’t stop to think for one second how it feels for a woman to walk the streets at night. Do you consider it a human right that a woman can walk safely through the streets at any time of day?

    I don’t have to stop to think, I am capable of thinking. I know women are afraid to walk the streets at night. And it is their right to walk safely. But, they are still afraid and whose fault is it?

    Is it the fault of those rapists that are lurking out there? Or is it the fault of a fellow human who says they should be careful out there?

    If there is a minefield and you are afraid to go walk there, do you blame the person who put the mines there or do you blame the person who tells you where the mines are so you can try to avoid them?

    Fucking unbelievable….you are still talking about what WOMEN should do to avoid being raped and not for a second talking about MEN REFUSING TO RAPE!

    I asked you already, do you really think that you can stop rapes by just asking rapists to refuse to rape? Why can’t you use this for all crimes? Just ask people to refuse committing crimes?

    Fact is that there are rapists out there and as long as there are, it is common sense to try to be as safe as possible,

    So the most obvious solution here, which is that men change their behaviour towards women is something that you refuse to even think about? That is somehow unrealistic?

    Why should innocent men change their behaviour? The problem are the rapists, do you really think you can talk them to stop raping?

    • Mark

      Farang

      What in earth are you talking about? Rape already is unacceptable, there is nothing to discuss. People know it’s unacceptable.

      Newsflash for you: There are bad people on this planet, they will do bad things even if they are unacceptable. Get serious!

      No, it’s not acceptable that people like you shift the responsibility for rape onto women, actively advising them about dress, about what kind of person to be wary of, and then, when it actually comes to the rape itself, your only contribution is that ‘there are bad people on this planet’. Rapists are men…they are ordinary men in almost every other aspect, so that really begs the question when you try to suggest that rapists are somehow the ‘evil doers’ of the world. And AGAIN, you absolutely refuse to even begin to talk about about what men can do to ‘stop raping’. You choose instead to pathologise rape, talk about it as if it was something committed by nutters, and thereby deny the commonality of rape and sexual assualt. Nearly 50% of women in Finland (45% if I remember correctly the STAKES study) report ‘inapprouwanted sexual advances’. And you try to argue that it lies outside of the norm? That is why women and men are so often on different pages on this issue. Men simply refuse to listen to women and to how they feel in regard to men’s sexual behaviour!

      Is it the fault of those rapists that are lurking out there? Or is it the fault of a fellow human who says they should be careful out there?

      Both. I know this is something that you will find hard to understand, but it’s true, nevertheless. I imagine that I would struggle to even convince of the theoretical possibility that this is true, without even beginning to touch on the reality of this truth. But let’s start with the question of whether you understand that ‘no means no’, regardless of what a woman wears, how much she has had to drink, where you have met her, and regardless of how much she was flirting with you before you decided you wanted sex? Because from what you have written so far, you have suggested that it is women’s responsibility to somehow avoid a situation in which a woman saying no ‘really means no’, and that the only way that women can have ‘power’ in this situation is not to be in it. If you don’t see this as being even the slightest bit problematic, I really wonder where the hell I start with you in trying to convey the reality of sexual politics…I mean, if ‘no doesn’t mean no’, then where do we start? We just accept that women have no power to say ‘no’? I cannot accept that. It is totally unacceptable, Farant. If that is the basis for the whole ‘anti-rape’ policy that you would put forward, it is totally inadequate…it doesn’t even begin to question men’s attitudes to women. You might label women that talk about this as ‘loud feminists’, but frankly, that is fucking insulting to women…and you should be ashamed of yourself.

  14. khr

    Maybe you don’t intend it, but you seem to suggest that male rape of women is some kind of ‘uncontrollable chaos’ that lies beyond rules. I would say that is just not true. The rule is that men satisfy their urges regardless of what women want, and that this is in part acceptable, that men view their own urges as so primeval and fundamental that any questioning of those urges or any sense that men must or should control those urges is always prefaced with the ‘man as wild beaast’ narrative, as if that explains away everything. Or are you seriously trying to suggest that all rape is actually just men being insane?

    I don’t think all or even most rape is by insane men. The urges are something men must control, and most men do, so it is quite obviously possible. I suspect that could be at least partly the rapists not seeing the victim as human enough to matter, when weighted against their own pleasure. The rapist could restrain, but just does not care.

    • Mark

      khr

      and most men do

      If by this, you mean more than 50%, I cannot say that that is very heartening. The police estimate 10,000 rapes in Finland every year, of which only 5% are reported. Sixteen per cent of women report violence against them before the age of 15, even, and that in a sample of over 7000 women, which is more than enough to be representative. 10% of women are victims of attempted rape in Finland, and 14% subject to ‘sexually threatening behaviour’. That’s 200,000 women, khr, subject to an attempted rape. When is the scale of this problem going to hit home? How big does this problem have to be before you notice it? Can you imagine 200,000 immigrants suddenly hitting Finnish shores? I guess you would notice that. 20% of women had experienced sexual violenc in the previous couple relationship. Were they all lying? The data show that women experience this unwelcome sexual behaviour in all surroundings, not just on the street: in bars, workplaces, schools, own dwellings, streets, stairways, outside…everywhere! Think about that for a moment….nowhere are women safe from men! Can you even begin to imagine how that must feel? And I don’t say this to scare women, I say it to you, as a man, to try to understand something of this issue that you so easily and happily feel qualified to talk about.

      The rapist could restrain, but just does not care.

      And why is that?

  15. Farang

    Because from what you have written so far, you have suggested that it is women’s responsibility to somehow avoid a situation in which a woman saying no ‘really means no’, and that the only way that women can have ‘power’ in this situation is not to be in it.

    You are so arrogant. You make this claim even when I have several times specifically told you that WOMAN IS NEVER RESPONSIBLE of getting raped.

    To me it’s 100% clear, somehow you seem to think that for majority of men it’s not.

    • Mark

      Farang

      You are so arrogant. You make this claim even when I have several times specifically told you that WOMAN IS NEVER RESPONSIBLE of getting raped.

      It’s not good enough. It’s not even close to be being good enough. It’s like telling a child that they are 100% not responsible for child abuse, but then telling them that they should avoid situations where they are one on one with an adult, without thinking for one second what that would do to a child’s sense of security.

      You are fucking lazy in this issue, Farang. And really you have no excuses.

  16. Farang

    Mark, you really have a problem in making difference between rapists and non-rapists. And why are you mixing all “unappropriate sexual advances” with rapes, while they have nothing to do with each other?

    Did you know that those figures include also cases where man has simply asked woman if she would like to have sex. Only sick person considers that a rape.

    • Mark

      Farang

      you mixing all “unappropriate sexual advances” with rapes, while they have nothing to do with each other?

      You cannot see the connection? Oh, I despair…..where the hell do I begin? Where?

      Did you know that those figures include also cases where man has simply asked woman if she would like to have sex.

      And you know this how? I haven’t even given the source for the data! You are a fucking joke, Farang.

  17. Farang

    And you know this how? I haven’t even given the source for the data! You are a fucking joke, Farang.

    I have read the research, not sure if it’s the same you are referring to, but atleast figures match, so we are talking about same thing.

    Question for you Mark:

    Do you consider man asking woman if she would like to have sex unacceptable?

    • Mark

      Farang

      I have read the research

      Okay, what was the reaction to the discussion about the proposed three categories of rape? What are the three categories of rape?

      What was the relevance of the idea of a ‘private crime’ and how was this challenged in the legislative reform?

      What was the situation in regard to the plaintiff requesting that a criminal prosecution would not proceed?

      What is the expected effect of HAVING to be present in court during a rape trial?

      What is the situation in regard to getting finance for research into violence against women?

      What prompted the increase in research into violence against women in the early 2000s?

      If you have read this research, then these are easy questions for you!!!!

  18. Farang

    It’s not good enough. It’s not even close to be being good enough. It’s like telling a child that they are 100% not responsible for child abuse, but then telling them that they should avoid situations where they are one on one with an adult, without thinking for one second what that would do to a child’s sense of security.
    You are fucking lazy in this issue, Farang. And really you have no excuses.

    From all your comments I can do only one conclusion: To make you happy, everyone should stop warning women about the dangers and just let them learn by experience.

    • Mark

      Farang

      and just let them learn by experience.

      You mean that the only other possibility to scaring the shit out of women is to let them learn from the experience of being raped?

      Listen to yourself, Farang. Can you honestly say that you have hesitated for one second to try and understand this issue?

  19. Farang

    It’s like telling a child that they are 100% not responsible for child abuse, but then telling them that they should avoid situations where they are one on one with an adult, without thinking for one second what that would do to a child’s sense of security.

    Actually, every responsible parent will teach their kids to stay away from strangers, especially when they are offering candy etc. I bet you consider that wrong too?

    • Mark

      Farang

      Actually, every responsible parent will teach their kids to stay away from strangers, especially when they are offering candy etc. I bet you consider that wrong too?

      So, now you equate advice to women to avoid encounters with men as being the same as advising children to ‘stay away from strangers’. So now it’s not only women who should stay at home, but kids too! That figures!

  20. khr

    If by this, you mean more than 50%, I cannot say that that is very heartening.

    It’s well above 50%. Those that rape do it more than once (6-7 victims in average, iirc, in some research (sorry, too tired to look up for references now, so I could remember wrong)). Even if they didn’t, using your 10% number (I have heard higher estimates), it would put 90% of men to the non-rapist category. The real number is obviously higher, when taking in account the serial rapist behaviour.

    When is the scale of this problem going to hit home? How big does this problem have to be before you notice it?

    Have I ever claimed there is not a problem? Or even that there would not be a huge problem? All that I’m saying is that the problem is not caused by the majority of men and demonising them does not help.

    And why is that?

    I do not know. Understanding the cause could perhaps give some idea how to work towards changing it.

    • Mark

      khr

      It’s well above 50%. Those that rape do it more than once (6-7 victims in average, iirc, in some research (sorry, too tired to look up for references now, so I could remember wrong)). Even if they didn’t, using your 10% number (I have heard higher estimates), it would put 90% of men to the non-rapist category. The real number is obviously higher, when taking in account the serial rapist behaviour.

      It’s horrible feeling responsible for an evil that you yourself completely object to. But observing your responses here, I cannot help but notice that you seem to be more concerned with men being wrongly ‘accused’ than you are with working to understand what ordinary men can do to stop rape, even when they know that they themselves would not do it. I think that the attitude of just saying ‘well, men know that rape is wrong’ is not enough, because that effectively means that men are doing NOTHING. It’s like saying that we all know it’s wrong, so therefore we would expect it not to happen.

      I don’t mean to be flippant here, but let’s compare this to internet piracy. 99% of people know it’s wrong – and yet 70% argue that it’s ‘okay’. 99% of data transferred through p2p is pirated. 22% of online bandwidth is given to piracy! So you see, just because you have a concensus about what is actually ‘wrong’ doesn’t mean that individuals won’t find a way to justify an ‘unacceptable’ behaviour. It is argued that piracy is a ‘victimless crime’. In the same way, it was argued that rape was ‘victimless’ in the sense that the woman must have ‘egged him on in some way’.

      khr – you are being lazy!

      Understanding the cause could perhaps give some idea how to work towards changing it.

      And that’s it….that’s your contribution. “If I could be bothered to understand the causes of rape, it would give me some idea towards changing it. But really, I cannot be bothered, and yet I still feel qualified to step in and comment on the debate in such a way that men don’t have to take responsibility?”

      I have to side with Farang now a bit. Everyone takes risks all the time, some of those more calculated than others.

      In other words, the work has to be done by women. You are not going to get off your fat arse for a second to try to even understand what the issues are, let alone work to advocate that ‘men – stop raping!’

  21. Farang

    So, now you equate advice to women to avoid encounters with men as being the same as advising children to ‘stay away from strangers’. So now it’s not only women who should stay at home, but kids too! That figures!

    Are you afraid to answer? Why didn’t you answer?

    In Finland it’s commont that parents teach this to their kids. Do you consider this wrong? Please answer if you dare.

    • Mark

      Farang

      In Finland it’s commont that parents teach this to their kids. Do you consider this wrong? Please answer if you dare.

      Actually, psychologists have come out and said this is wrong. Abuse rates have not varied greatly in the last 30 years, and yet parental advice to children to ‘avoid strangers’ has sky-rocketed. This has led to ‘stranger anxiety’, which has very real and potentially damaging consequences for social bonding. Child psychologists are quite concered about this.

      You see, Farang, the further you try and dig into this topic to find yourself a justification for making women afraid of rape, the more you will be faced with the reality that it is NOT A GOOD THING!

    • Enrique Tessieri

      Farang, we are all against rape. But could you enlighten us with hard figures on how much of a problem it is in Finland.

      The problem with these types of debates is that you are not really interested in the victim (woman) but keen to label and victimize whole groups. If you read PS MP James Hirvisaari’s arguments, it’s all about that. With this subject he labels groups and profits politically from it.

      What would you call such a person? A charlatan opportunist of the worst kind.

  22. Farang

    Mark is so deep in his own world that it’s futile to even try to reason with him. His answers above have proven that he has his own way own thinking, which is not the same way normal people think.

    Mark

    Somehow in your opinion all men are responsible for the rapes some individuals do. How can you say that while at the same time you and everyone else are fighting people who say that all immigrants are responsible is some individuals do crimes?

    You badmouth me and khr for not giving solutions to solve rape problems, and same time your own contribution is also zero. Please give even one single concrete example of what an ordinary non-raping man could do to stop some other person from raping. Should I go door to door in my neighbourhood and tell all men: Don’t rape!

    You are very hypocrate, you condemn people for not having solutions even when you yourself have no solutions.

    Only thing that and ordinary man can do is to vote for a person who would change the laws to keep rapists in jail, but that’s a bit of a long shot. Still doesn’t mean that all men are responsible for rapes.

    And with that internet piracy comparison you show that you don’t understand the difference between law and morale. People know that piracy is wrong by law, but they don’t agree that it’s wrong by morale. Rape is a differnt thing, similarly we all know that rape is wrong by law but also majority (basically all Finns) of people agree it’s also wrong by morale. It’s only those few exceptions who commit rapes and even they know it’s wrong, they just don’t care.

    So there is your difference: Rapist knows he is doing morally wrong, but does it anyway. Internet pirate doesn’t consider piracy morally wrong.

    • Mark

      Farang

      Mark is so deep in his own world that it’s futile to even try to reason with him. His answers above have proven that he has his own way own thinking, which is not the same way normal people think.

      And this is your response to being provided with a very basic argument that men should take responsibility as a gender for rape and not put that responsibility on women as a gender.

      Somehow in your opinion all men are responsible for the rapes some individuals do.

      I wouldn’t expect you to feel an ounce of guilt for what men do as a gender, just as I don’t think that you hestitate for second in asking women, as a gender, to calculate the risks of being raped while out in public. We are responsible as male citizens if we create a society that does not value women. If you think for a second that that is a given for men, then you are very sadly mistaken.

      You badmouth me and khr for not giving solutions to solve rape problems, and same time your own contribution is also zero.

      You are both lazy and have not properly considered the impact of your attitudes towards rape. Women do not feel safe when they are being asked to make rape risk calculations; that is not making Finnish society safer for women. That is passing the buck! And my beef with you is that you do not stop for a second to talk about what men should do. And really, if men stopped raping women, then there wouldn’t be a problem, would there! What is wrong with asking other men to stop raping women, Farang?

      I’m not going to blow my own trumpet, but I have been involved in campaigns to reduce violence against women for more than a decade, Farang.

      Should I go door to door in my neighbourhood and tell all men: Don’t rape!

      Why go next door when you have an opportunity right here and now? That is the problem here. You are here, on this thread, talking about rape, and you will not even agree that men should take responsibility for it as a gender! I never asked you to be an evangelist, I just asked you to understand how your stance to the issue has made women feel. You don’t imagine you were the first man ever to tell women that they should calculate the risks and avoid certain men and situations if they didn’t want to be raped? God, no, you are not the first chauvenist who felt themselves entitled to dictate to women!

      Only thing that and ordinary man can do is to vote for a person who would change the laws to keep rapists in jail, but that’s a bit of a long shot. Still doesn’t mean that all men are responsible for rapes.

      The only thing? You are real scum if that is all you are willing to contribute to this debate. You do realise that calling for tougher sentencing hardly touches the 90% of rapes in Finland that go unreported? And why is that? Why are women so scared of the consequences that they would not even report what is a grave crime against them? Who cares about the 90%? Not Farang.

      And now you are confusing social responsibility with individual responsibility. You made yourself PART OF THE PROBLEM by telling women how they should react to rape. You did that, Farang. No-one forced you to come on here and start dictating to women about rape. I just gave you what is pretty much a standard response from women’s movements about exactly that argument you made and how women do not like having to take responsibility in that way, especially when men are offering nothing else and not actively seeking to send home the message ‘Don’t rape’.

      I mean, we’ve had campaigns against smoking, campaigns against drink driving that tell people not to do these things because of the harms to oneself and to others, but can you ever recall a national campaign in Finland to ‘stop raping’? Why not? 10,000 victims a year not enough?

      Even basic research funding for investigating rape is notoriously difficult to come by in Finland. The first real bit of comprehensive research by STAKES in the 1990s led to a shit storm and accusations of a feminist takeover because the picture that it started to reveal was one that MEN didn’t want to see. Men can take responsibility by at least opening their eyes and their ears to the situation. But not Farang.

      So there is your difference: Rapist knows he is doing morally wrong, but does it anyway. Internet pirate doesn’t consider piracy morally wrong.

      So let’s tell men not to do it. Is that so difficult? Do you think it will make no difference? Why the pessimism? Attitudes can change!Smoking rates have gone down because the authorities and public health officials have told people not to do it because it harms them and others. Attitudes HAVE changed as a result.

      Drink driving rates have gone down, while we STILL continue to campaign regularly and breath-test drivers regularly to ensure the message stays in the public mind. What campaigns do you see against rape? No, that would hurt Farang’s feelings because he doesn’t want to feel any responsibility for what someone else does. Why would you even begin to feel responsible if you haven’t done anything, even to the point that you would reject that message being put into the public domain? What have you against men, like you and I, discussing and agreeing that men should not rape! You seem to suggest that they already know it’s wrong and that’s enough…silence! And yet this is not the normal response to a problem of public abusive or harmful behaviour.

      I’ve heard a lot of shit coming out of the mouths of men in regard to women, Farang. I’ve heard men joking about slapping her about a bit to gain ‘respect’; I’ve heard them talk endlessly about sexual conquest, about getting in her knickers, giving her one, about having a good shag, with the idea that a woman’s ‘arse’ is a kind of trophy. This is quite normal stuff for men. Harmless? In many cases yes, but this objectification of women is also part of the very real context of rape.

      You can blind yourself to that, if you want, but you cannot tell me that men don’t think or talk this way about women, a way that basically devalues them, because we both know that they do. And this is the cultural context in which rape becomes much more likely, not by ‘monsters’, but by ordinary men!

      I certainly don’t hear men talking about respecting women, or about talking to other men about what men do, i.e. rape women. That’s the funny thing, because smoking typically brings up quite detailed conversations about giving up smoking, how many you smoke etc, while drinking is the same, men discuss how much they drink, what they think about their own drinking, about drunks or even drugs. These are normal conversations that engage in the topic and discuss harms and attitudes. But I have NEVER heard men discussing the problem of rape or men raping in a normal conversation (obviously I have discussed it with anti-violence campaigners).

  23. Farang

    Farang, we are all against rape. But could you enlighten us with hard figures on how much of a problem it is in Finland.

    Why are you obsessed with figures? The problem is equally severe to a woman who is a victim, no matter how many other incidents there are. Every single rape is too much.

    Do you agree with Mark that all men are responsible? Am I responsible if someone in my neighbourhood rapes someone?

    • Enrique Tessieri

      Why are you obsessed with figures? The problem is equally severe to a woman who is a victim, no matter how many other incidents there are. Every single rape is too much.

      Because I want to put this matter in perspective. You are only interested in labeling people that’s why you don’t want to put the issue in perspective. Simple as that.

    • Mark

      Farang

      Do you agree with Mark that all men are responsible? Am I responsible if someone in my neighbourhood rapes someone?

      So now you are misrepresenting what I have said. Do that again and I will complain to the moderators.

      There is an important difference between ‘being responsible’ and ‘taking responsibility’. A rapist that commits a crime is individually responsible for their actions. But men as a gender are responsible for the culture and environment that allows other men to rape.

      I am not asking you to ‘be responsible’ for another man’s rape. I am asking you to take responsibility for that culture and environment, and specifically, I’m asking you to respond to women’s complaint that asking them to calculate risks feels like they have been passed the responsibility.

      We should take that responsibility, men, because it is men who commit the vast majority of rapes. You and I and other men. And our responsibility begins by telling other men not to rape. That is taking resposibility for the culture and environment that makes rape a silent crime with no punishment in 90% of cases!!!!!!!

  24. Farang

    Because I want to put this matter in perspective. You are only interested in labeling people that’s why you don’t want to put the issue in perspective. Simple as that.

    Now you are confused. It’s Mark who is labelling people, only labelling I have done is labelled people as rapists and non-rapists based on if they have actually committed rape or not.

    It was also Mark who brought this whole rape discussion under this thread, which was originally about “racists in PS”

    • Mark

      Farang

      Now you are confused. It’s Mark who is labelling people, only labelling I have done is labelled people as rapists and non-rapists based on if they have actually committed rape or not.

      You should read something by Alan Berkowitz, a very well-respected US psychologists who has studied rape and violence against women and who also runs workshops aimed at exploring how men can take responsibility for sexual violence against women. You could start with this, which is freely available.

    • JusticeDemon

      Mark

      There’s no point in trying to educate Farang. He thinks that all truth is fundamentally intuitive. One may rely absolutely on gut reactions conditioned by a early acculturation to a society that certainly no longer exists and quite probably never did.

      PS draws its support from the cosy cultural certainties of the Urho Kekkonen lawnmower generation. Challenge this and the outcome will always be an appeal to violence as the ultimate source of value, because this was the impression on a fundamentally eastern European mentality ingrained by Cold War relations. Finnish racism must be understood in the context of that eastern European mindset.

      You can refute these prejudices intellectually, but the only outcome will be to reduce Farang to a sullen silence. The truth is whatever is obvious to him and all debate that suggests otherwise is mere sophistry.

    • Mark

      JD

      I don’t expect Farang to change his mind about anything. I just don’t think he should have the opportunity to write his crap here without a response. It does serve to illustrate the arguments and thinking that lie behind his attitudes and that is probably revealing in itself and educational in itself, regardless of whether he changes his opinion.

  25. Farang

    I certainly don’t hear men talking about respecting women

    Well, you should choose your company wiser. People I am friends with, do respect women and we have no intentions to hurt women anyway. Quite opposite, we take care of women and protect them.

    So let’s tell men not to do it. Is that so difficult?

    Are you really that naive? So rapist is raping only beacuse nobody told him not to rape?

    And this is your response to being provided with a very basic argument that men should take responsibility as a gender for rape and not put that responsibility on women as a gender.

    Nobody put the responsibility on women.

    We are responsible as male citizens if we create a society that does not value women.

    Here it comes again, the blame. We haven’t created that kind of society. Our society do value women, maybe it was different in the country where you came from.

    If there is an individuals who commits crimes, it doesn’t mean that the society accepts crimes. Get real!

    And really, if men stopped raping women, then there wouldn’t be a problem, would there! What is wrong with asking other men to stop raping women, Farang?

    Yes, rapist will stop raping if we just ask them to stop. Yes, that will work for sure.

    • Mark

      Farang

      Well, you should choose your company wiser.

      Typical cheap shot made by a man who is by nature a bully. I am talking about all-male workplaces, canteens, in the army, and also about normal friendship. You seem to want to think this objectification of women is something that takes place in seedy drinking dens or somewhere, but it isn’t. So, if you are going to stand there and tell me your friends or men at the workplace have never talked about women as sexual conquests, then I will call you fucking liar to your face!

      You are not protecting women by telling them to calculate risks of being raped while doing NOTHING to tell other men not to rape. You have shifted the responsibility, and like a rat, you hide behind the notion that you are not personally responsible, and there is nothing else you can do…yet you do feel able to tell women what to do!

      Are you really that naive? So rapist is raping only beacuse nobody told him not to rape?

      Only your twisted logic could come up with a nugget like that!

      Our society do value women, maybe it was different in the country where you came from.

      Bullshit. Farang, you are lying to yourself if you do not think violence against women and sexual assault against women is not a problem in Finland.

      Yes, rapist will stop raping if we just ask them to stop. Yes, that will work for sure.

      What are you saying, that men are biologically programmed to rape? Bullshit. Rape is committed because of the attitudes towards women of the rapist. You seem to forget that a lot of rape takes place within marriage, or by people well-known to the victim! This is a function of relationships and values that men hold. And yes, you can change men’s attitudes and that will change their behaviour!

      Your cynicism doesn’t cover up the fact that this is about men’s behaviour and attitudes towards women. If you want to pretend that those attitudes cannot or should not be changed, fine, but don’t lecture me about what is right and wrong, because you have NO credibility whatsover. You are a spineless cowardly man that won’t stand up to other men!

  26. Farang

    Typical cheap shot made by a man who is by nature a bully. I am talking about all-male workplaces, canteens, in the army, and also about normal friendship. You seem to want to think this objectification of women is something that takes place in seedy drinking dens or somewhere, but it isn’t.

    There is no more objetification of women among men than there are objectification of men among women. Talking about opposite sex and sexual activities is normal behaviour, there is nothing wrong in that. All that matters is what happens between man and woman.

    • Mark

      Farang

      There is no more objetification of women among men than there are objectification of men among women.

      Keep living the dream! Talking about sex is natural enough, and wanting sex is natural enough, but objectifying women is something else on top of that. But I am not going to waste me time trying to explain this to you. You want to show yourself to be ignorant, go ahead.

  27. Farang

    Bullshit. Farang, you are lying to yourself if you do not think violence against women and sexual assault against women is not a problem in Finland.

    Every crime is a problem. But those who commit the crimes are responsible, not the society or all citizens collectively.

    Violence against women is no more severe problem than violence against immigrants, or violence against children. Those are actions of bad people. Bad people exists in the world. We should try to get rid of these bad people, but people doing the decisions don’t want to. They want to keep them out on the streets. So blame them, but please don’t blame everyone collectively.

    • Mark

      Your answer is a joke. You will only know if it is a bad person after they have done the crime, because you are not one bit interested in looking at what leads up to and facilitates the crime. And once they have committed the crime, your solution is to ‘get rid of these bad people’.

      It’s batshit insane!

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      Those are actions of bad people.

      For someone who claims to have no religious tradition, Farang, you are now trotting out a thoroughly discredited but nevertheless still influential 18th century approach to criminology that owes its “intuitive” plausibility to a concept of sinfulness that obstinately refuses to examine the causes of human behaviour.

      Would you care to explain why human behaviour (more specifically human deviance) deserves this uniquely unscientific treatment, and how you account for the evident correlation between crime rates and, say, alcohol consumption? Translated into your parlance, the 18th century view on this is that the correlation arises because “bad people” not only commit crimes, but also consume alcohol, from which it follows that alcohol consumption is a sign of a “bad person”. This mode of thinking is still prevalent in northern Finland, and it is no accident that the first temperance society in Finland was founded by Laestadius in Lapland.

      Where do your family come from, Farang?

  28. Farang

    You refuse to understand the fact, that people do bad things simply because they are bad. There is no other reason. You are lost forever if you try to find something that doesn’t exists.

    What is it with people like you? Is it just that you are too afraid to acknowledge the fact that everything in life can’t be controlled? Therefore you desperately have to find some logical reason for everything, like to have illusion that everything can be fixed.

    • Mark

      Farang

      Your theory for the causes of rape is that people are bad? “NO OTHER REASON”. You don’t see this as a tad absolutist and inadequate, I guess?

      Is it just that you are too afraid to acknowledge the fact that everything in life can’t be controlled?

      My idea is not to control, but to accept that rape is a result of attitudes, values and behaviour towards women, and that these are things that can be influenced. You seem to be saying that men who rape have no control over themselves. They cannot help but rape, because of some ‘badness’ in them. You are saying that men cannot stop themselves from raping? Is that correct, Farang?

      Therefore you desperately have to find some logical reason for everything

      No logical reason for why men rape? So you are saying that men who rape are illogical and just do it out of some kind of random insanity or badness that happens to afflict ONLY MEN?

      like to have illusion that everything can be fixed.

      You are saying that rape cannot be fixed? Women just have to live with the fact that men will rape them? Why don’t you tell that to your mother? Or your daughter? “Men rape and that’s that. They are just ‘bad’ men, and nothing can be done. Sorry ladies! Tough luck.

      Wow, with protectors like you, I imagine that women will feel so much safer!

  29. Farang

    You are saying that rape cannot be fixed? Women just have to live with the fact that men will rape them? Why don’t you tell that to your mother? Or your daughter? Men rape and that’s that. They are just ‘bad’ men, and nothing can be done. Sorry ladies! Tough luck.

    What is it with your attitude to rape? You somehow treat it as totally different than other crimes of violence.

    Same analogy applies to other crimes aswell, there are people who rob, there are people who kill, there are people who assaults others, etc. And we have to live with that. How are people who rape any different from the other violent criminals? As long as they are out there we can try to avoid them.

    You can’t fix rape any more than you can fix other crimes.

    And yes, I will definitely tell this to my daughters, so that they can be aware. And I teach my daughters to protect themselves if they ever get attacked. And I tell this to my sons, so that they can kick the crap out of anyone who they see raping someone.

    I feel sorry for your kids. If they get attacked, they just don’t know what happens, because there were nobody there to tell them how to protect themselves.

    • Mark

      Farang

      You didn’t answer the question. Why is that I wonder? Are you saying that men cannot help but rape women? They cannot control themselves? Is that correct?

  30. Farang

    Are you saying that men cannot help but rape women? They cannot control themselves? Is that correct?

    That is nonsense. Men don’t rape. Some men do. There’s a difference, you are generalising this so that all men would rape.

    I am definitely not saying that “men cannot help but rape”, that is like saying they are not responsible for their actions, like they are forced to rape by some magical power. Maybe you think like that, but I don’t.

    Why does someone kill? Do you really think they just can’t resist? They kill because they are evil and want to gain something on expense of someone else’s life.

    Same on rape. Someone rapes because he wants someting regardless of that other person he is violating.

    You can’t fix that kind of thing. It has never worked during the mankind and it never will. Some problems can’t be fixed, they can only be eliminated, meaning a rapists should be put away, not let loose on the streets.

    Still, you haven’t given a single example of how YOU would fix this. Maybe because you just want to talk about it, even if you don’t have any idea about it.

    • Mark

      Farang

      I am definitely not saying that “men cannot help but rape”, that is like saying they are not responsible for their actions, like they are forced to rape by some magical power. Maybe you think like that, but I don’t.

      So, if men don’t have to rape and they are not being made to rape through some ‘magical power’ as you put it, then we can assume they have a choice. And yet you still claim that society can do nothing to influence that choice. Don’t you find that a little strange, that society is constantly trying to affect people’s choices all the time, and yet when it comes to men and rape, suddenly we are powerless to affect their choice?

      You can’t fix that kind of thing.

      ‘Fix’ is your choice of word, and it’s a stupid choice at that. It seems to imply that an ‘either/or’ situation, where you can either ‘fix it all’, or you cannot do anything. I think reality is quite obviously somewhere in the middle.

      The question on the table is can society affect men’s choices? If rape is a choice, the society can affect men’s choice to rape, no?

      meaning a rapists should be put away, not let loose on the streets.

      Which actually does nothing to tackle the 90% of rapes that are estimated to go unreported in Finland! How convenient for you, as a male, Farang, to claim that ‘nothing can be done’.

      Still, you haven’t given a single example of how YOU would fix this

      I don’t use language like ‘fix’, and for obvious reasons. However, I have made it clear I would have thought that I would approach the issue by advocating ongoing nationwide awareness compaigns, in the workplace, in schools, in political contexts, involving also workshops with men to talk about the attitudes and reasons behind rape, and how women are devalued in such a way that rape becomes legitimised in the minds of some men.

      I would also challenge men to accept and understand that men need to change their sense of masculinity to properly respect women. Men also need to tell other men clearly and in one voice ‘don’t rape’. I would do that. And I would do it because I know, from a public health perspective, that these kinds of campaigns can make a real difference – there are countless examples of behaviours and attitudes that have been changed and influenced through persistent public campaigns, from eating habits, exercises habits, smoking, drinking, drink driving, and the latter of which is likewise a crime.

      Indeed, even the hate crime that at one stage in Europe led to the death of 6 million Jews and several more million through a war to liberate Europe was almost eradicated. It was built on a system of beliefs and attitudes towards other human beings that enabled individuals to abuse, murder and dehumanise millions of people.

      Shame that you are not even prepared for a second to address the real problem in regard to rape – men’s attitudes to women! It’s so fucking easy, but a dipshit like you, who thinks they are a good person, a dutiful father, and a loving husband is nevertheless still prepared to sell them down the river by not doing ANYTHING constructive to challenge men and their raping of women. Sad little coward! You could start here by just saying that ‘men should not rape’, and that men need to look at themselves as a gender and recognise that their devaluing of women has laid the ground in which rape takes place.

      It won’t ‘fix’ itself, Farang, that’s for sure.

  31. Farang

    Which actually does nothing to tackle the 90% of rapes that are estimated to go unreported in Finland! How convenient for you, as a male, Farang, to claim that ‘nothing can be done’.

    How should we collectively try to tackle a problem if nobody talks about it? If the victim doesn’t report the crime, how does anyone else even know it happened.

    If woman doesn’t report the rape, then nobody can help her.

    The way you talk here about me and others, calling names etc, it really proves that you know for yourself that you are wrong and you can’t defend your case with real arguments. I think THAT is a bit cheap.

    • Mark

      Farang

      How should we collectively try to tackle a problem if nobody talks about it? If the victim doesn’t report the crime, how does anyone else even know it happened. If woman doesn’t report the rape, then nobody can help her.

      You start by providing proper support. The way that victims have been treated in the past has been shocking. If rape involves someone from within the family, work or friend network, then the very problem of ‘men’s violence’ also come with it, that women are too scared of the possible consequences of revealing a rapist. That is just not right. Your talk about putting responsibility on women to ‘reduce the risk themselves’ does nothing for them except add blame. You say you don’t intend this, but I can tell you for nothing that what you intend and the actual effect of what you suggest are different things. And you have a duty of care to women to LISTEN TO THEM, and not to stand there lecturing them about ‘bad’ men, about risk analyses, and about ‘getting rid of rapists’, while the whole while not doing a single thing to tackle the real fucking problem – men’s attitudes to women!

      If you are concerned about women, as you say you are, then should make more effort. The fact that you don’t means I really don’t like you. You are a danger to women!

  32. khr

    Mark, I get the feeling that you’re responding to something completely different than what I have meant with my writings.

    And that’s it….that’s your contribution. “If I could be bothered to understand the causes of rape, it would give me some idea towards changing it. But really, I cannot be bothered, and yet I still feel qualified to step in and comment on the debate in such a way that men don’t have to take responsibility?”

    You’re in no position to say anything about what amount of effort I make or have made to understand the issues, so please don’t jump in to conclusions.

    What I am saying that I do not have any canned answers. “Men should stop raping women” is not the right answer. Not because it would be technically wrong – that happening would obviously stop that part of the rape problem. It’s not the right answer because it fails completely at answering the real question, which is: “How do we get there?”

    In other words, the work has to be done by women.

    This is again something I have never said or implied.

  33. khr

    But men as a gender are responsible for the culture and environment that allows other men to rape.

    Ok, this is something I can mostly agree with. (Only mostly, because men do not form the culture alone). Changing the culture is not simply done though, culture being such an hard to define thing as it is like trying to get a solid grasp of smoke. Working towards recognising other people as feeling individuals always helps.

    Also, nobody is a slave to the surrounding culture or the culture where he grew in, so there are limits to what a general attitude change can achieve. The rapists are already operating outside what is considered appropriate, so it is unfortunately not a complete solution. It is a part of a solution, certainly.

  34. Farang

    while the whole while not doing a single thing to tackle the real fucking problem – men’s attitudes to women!

    That is one of your fundamental problems: You think that attitude is something collective. It’s not, it’s a personal thing. Person A has somekind of attitude to women, Person B has otherkind. They are individuals.

    How can you say I’m danger to women? Plase elaborate. Give some concrete point on how I am danger to women, how do I cause harm to women. Please do so, as you started to throw these personal accusations.

    • Mark

      Farang

      Attitude is both collective and individual. And the idea is exactly to influence the individual attitudes of men through peer pressure and collective campaigning. Hell, if we can make this kind of effort to persuade men to stop smoking, then we can do the same to reduce the incidence of rape. Or are you simply saying it’s not worth the effort?

      You are a danger to women because you actively campaign against actions that could stop women being raped. You give passive acceptance to attitudes in society that harm women, even when these are pointed out to you! That’s what makes you so creepy!

  35. Farang

    Attitude is both collective and individual. And the idea is exactly to influence the individual attitudes of men through peer pressure and collective campaigning. Hell, if we can make this kind of effort to persuade men to stop smoking, then we can do the same to reduce the incidence of rape. Or are you simply saying it’s not worth the effort?

    Smoking is totally different thing. Smoking is legal and acceptable and people do it openly in public.

    Raping is done secretly without witnesses, because the rapists already know that it is wrong and unacceptable.

    What I’m trying to say that rapist already knows that he is not supposed to do that. The peer pressure won’t help, because he would anyway rape without the peer group knowing.

    I’m not denying that people should not talk about it, I’m simply saying that isn’t the solution to stop raping.

    Finnish justice system is by the way promoting rape. By letting rapists get away without jail time justice system is sending a message that one can rape without consequences. That is much more severe problem causing rapes than any “attitude”.

    You are a danger to women because you actively campaign against actions that could stop women being raped.

    Oh, please tell me what I have campaigned against?

    • Mark

      Farang

      Smoking is totally different thing. Smoking is legal and acceptable and people do it openly in public.

      Smoking kills, or didn’t you hear? And no, it is no longer acceptable. It is banned in the workplace, in bars and restaurants, in and around kingergartens etc. There has been a complete reversal in attitudes towards smoking in the last thirty years.

      If you don’t think smoking is a good example, take Drunk Driving, which is most certainly illegal and contributes to many deaths and traffic accidents. In 1990 there were some 30,000 estimated cases annually, and 25,000 in 2007. In 2010, the number of drunk drivers was at its lowest level in 15 years, in spite of increased drivers on the roads.

      By the way, this is a specifically male problem too, with only one in ten suspects being female!!! And remember, catching these drunk drivers is ‘taking them off the streets’. Now if you have the brilliant idea that you cannot so easily ‘catch’ a rapist, you would be wrong, as the majority of rapes are by people known to the victim and 90% of cases are unreported, meaning that with the same kind of national efforts, it is very likely that arrest rates could go up and rapes may then go down.

      Raping is done secretly without witnesses, because the rapists already know that it is wrong and unacceptable.

      I find this a very odd statement. Without witnesses? So the victim is not a person?

      I’m not denying that people should not talk about it, I’m simply saying that isn’t the solution to stop raping.

      Telling men to stop raping is an excellent solution, and the key point here is that it is a strategy worth employing and testing. We tell people to stop smoking and stop drink driving, we can tell men to stop raping. How can you possibly object if there is even a chance that it would have a positive effect?

      That is much more severe problem causing rapes than any “attitude”.

      Absolute rubbish. The punishment is what comes after the event, attitudes is what gives rise to the event in the first place. I agree the Justice system has an important part to play, but with 90% of rapes going unreported, it is playing only a very small part at present. However, the key thing is to make efforts to ensure that the convicted or jailed rapist does not rape again, and here again you come back to attitudes and how to affect them!

      The answer is a very simple thing. Raping a woman is not valuing them as a person. Men must look at how they devalue women. This is not just something that happened in years gone by, this continues today, in all aspects of life. It is ironic that fundamentally at issue here is that men, as a gender, have to change. Things are changing, but much of it is still being driven by women, with men as back seat passengers.

      Oh, please tell me what I have campaigned against?

      What a ridiculous question. You are on a public forum that receives 20,000 visits a month and you are saying that men can’t change their raping of women, men don’t even have to change, and that instead, women must make the calculation of when they will be raped, meaning that to be totally risk free, don’t meet any men, don’t walk the streets, don’t go drinking in bars, don’t leave yourself alone in a house with men etc. etc. Not only that, but when someone tells you that historically, women do not like this responsibility being passed on to them and that in fact men should focus on changing their attitudes towards women, you resist, say it isn’t possible, you don’t even consider it a possiblity.

      That is actively campaigning against a potential change that could reduce harm to women. Even this blog is a forum where you could positively influence men’s attitudes and you choose not to. The sensible conclusion is that you are therefore a danger to women!

  36. Farang

    If you don’t think smoking is a good example, take Drunk Driving, which is most certainly illegal and contributes to many deaths and traffic accidents. In 1990 there were some 30,000 estimated cases annually, and 25,000 in 2007. In 2010, the number of drunk drivers was at its lowest level in 15 years, in spite of increased drivers on the roads.

    Ok, this is better example, quite good one actually. I can’t nothing but agree with you. I didn’t consider smoking as a good example, because there one is basically just hurting/killing himself.

    The main difference between drunk driving and raping is still the fact that when someone makes the decision to go driving drunk, he is not deciding to run over anyone. The part of hurting someone comes as a secondary consequence of one’s decision to put people’s life at risk. While when person decides to rape, he knows for sure he is hurting someone.

    That is propably the reason why campaining against drunk driving works better. If we would like campaigning to reduce rapes, I think it would only affect to those people who doesn’t realise what rape does to his victim.

    Now if you have the brilliant idea that you cannot so easily ‘catch’ a rapist, you would be wrong, as the majority of rapes are by people known to the victim and 90% of cases are unreported

    But here you can propably see for yourself that this puts the responsibility on the victim of rape. It is the responsibility of victim to report it, otherwise we can’t catch them.

    So to tackle this problem, we should be educating people (victims and witnesses) to always report these crimes, instead of trying to educate people (rapists) not to rape. Do you agree that this would be one thing to consider?

    And about that 90%. That is just a guess. Nobody can know that, because those cases are not reported.

    I find this a very odd statement. Without witnesses? So the victim is not a person?

    No I didn’t mean that. Just by witnesses I meant that there are no outsiders seeing what happens. Ofcourse victim is always a witness.

    Telling men to stop raping is an excellent solution, and the key point here is that it is a strategy worth employing and testing. We tell people to stop smoking and stop drink driving, we can tell men to stop raping. How can you possibly object if there is even a chance that it would have a positive effect?

    Once again, I have never objected that. I have just given my opinion that it wouldn’t work. But I am not forbidding anyone to try.

    fundamentally at issue here is that men, as a gender, have to change.

    That is where you are totally wrong. Men don’t have to change. Only those men that devalue women, should change. Don’t generalise.

    What you are saying is exactly analog to saying that “all romanis must change” if there are some individual romanis that are committing crimes.

    • Mark

      Farang

      The main difference between drunk driving and raping is still the fact that when someone makes the decision to go driving drunk, he is not deciding to run over anyone. The part of hurting someone comes as a secondary consequence of one’s decision to put people’s life at risk. While when person decides to rape, he knows for sure he is hurting someone.

      This is pedantic nonsense that is insulting to women because it totally trivialises the reality of rape and the justifications that lead men to rape. Maybe you are naive, but then you should just shut up. Men who rape justify their rape in any number of ways and it is very arguable that those who rape actually understand they are doing wrong. This is part of the problem. Men justify it by saying the woman led him on, by saying that she really wanted it and was playing hard to get, or that she enjoyed it even if she says she didn’t. This are distateful facts, I know, but if you want to get into the psychology of rape or discussions of rape, then you really do have to broaden your understanding of the issues.

      Of course, I’m sure men know that society thinks it’s wrong, but the rationalisation of those actions is nevertheless real and one would have to conclude successful.

      If we would like campaigning to reduce rapes, I think it would only affect to those people who doesn’t realise what rape does to his victim.

      I guess this admission by you opens up at least some scope for justifying sincere campaigns to tackle rape in Finland.

      But here you can propably see for yourself that this puts the responsibility on the victim of rape. It is the responsibility of victim to report it, otherwise we can’t catch them.

      Once again, you insult rape victims by saying things like this. That women are scared to report the crime is not their own fault. Often it is the result of direct threats of violence or retribution. The key point here is that it is totally inadequate to say that society (men) will properly respond to the rape issue if women make the first move in coming forward to the police. That strikes me as emotional blackmail of rape victims, which I think is such an added insult to their already huge injury!

      And about that 90%. That is just a guess. Nobody can know that, because those cases are not reported.

      Well, you can rest easy at night then, knowing it was only a guess, provided I might add by Finland’s leading rape researchers, backed up by several surveys and organisations actually working with rape victims. But hey, any excuse to ignore the issues.

      Once again, I have never objected that. I have just given my opinion that it wouldn’t work.

      How would you know? Your arguments so far have been horribly weak! You haven’t answered the key questions – can men control themselves so as not to rape? If they choose not to control themselves, does this reflect a devaluing of women? Is this devaluing of women a key feature of masculinities? Can anything be done to change attitudes and to value (respect, love, basic rights) women? Until you acknowledge that rape is linked to values and attitudes and accept also that men CAN and MUST change their values if the incidence of rape is to go down, then you are outside this argument and actively working to undermine any effort towards changing men’s attitudes.

      That is where you are totally wrong. Men don’t have to change. Only those men that devalue women, should change. Don’t generalise.

      This would appear to be a key stumbling block for you. I guess you didn’t read that link I gave you that explored how to get men to recognise and take responsibility for rape as a male gender? So let’s see, when women couldn’t get jobs in the boardroom, society as a whole had no role to play in breaking that glass ceiling and attitudes towards women managers? It was all the fault of the individual company boards? As long as discrimination is done by a minority at any one time, there is absolutely no reason for the majority to take any responsibility, even if the effects are felt by ALL women, and ALL men are seen to benefit in some way from this situation?

  37. Farang

    Smoking kills, or didn’t you hear? And no, it is no longer acceptable.

    May I ask you, do you have some problems understanding what acceptable means?

    Smoking is very much acceptable. If it’s forbidden in certain places, it doesn’t mean it’s acceptable. Lots of things in life are very much acceptable and still they are restricted to be performed in certain places.

    It is acceptable to urinate, but not over a restaurant table. It is acceptable to have sex, but not in movie theater. Do you have problems to understand what I am saying?

    You saying that smoking is not acceptable just shows that you have no clue of what you are talking about.

    • Mark

      Farang

      You saying that smoking is not acceptable just shows that you have no clue of what you are talking about.

      Smoking is not considered acceptable in today’s world. The concensus about this is overwhelming. It is considered a health hazard, to the user and to those around them. In the 1960s it was officially labelled an ‘appropriate leisure time activity’ in Finnish legislation. Its effects on health care systems has been catastrophic and public attitudes have changed massively. We are not talking purely legality here, but even if we were, legislation has moved on massively in Finland since the 1970s, and each of the subsequent changes to the law have set tighter and tighter restrictions. The latest legislation now even commits to a tobacco-free Finland by the year 2040!

      If this does not reflect a complete change in social attitudes, then I don’t know what does! How blind do you have to be to not accept this very obvious social change?

  38. Farang

    Once again, you insult rape victims by saying things like this. That women are scared to report the crime is not their own fault.

    Tell me now, how is this insulting, if it’s just a plain fact?

    If man rapes a woman. Nobody else knows this, just these two person. How do you expect anyone to react to that if neither of these 2 persons tell anyone about it? If the victim chooses not to tell anyone, then how could she get help? Why don’t you answer to this question? Because you know there is no answer.

    And besides all these, have you for even one second considered the cases where women falsely accuse men of rape? Man and woman have had sex willingly, but for some reason next day the woman files rape charges against the man.

    • Mark

      Farang

      Tell me now, how is this insulting, if it’s just a plain fact?

      It’s insulting because you really fail to take account of just how harrowing a rape experience is for women, and you seem oblivious to the emotional consequences and how that may affect a woman’s choice to report sex crime. You likewise offer this as a response to the problem of 90% of crimes being unreported. Rather than explore better support for women, including from men, that would make reporting easier, instead you put the responsibility once again back on them.

      Farang, you don’t even take the 90% statistic seriously. You don’t take any of this seriously. You are looking for a way out the whole time, you don’t accept that men can or should change, you don’t accept what women say through surveys, you don’t accept that anyone can do anything except the actual victims, who must either take responsibility to avoid being raped, or face the prospect of not getting a conviction and creating all sorts of problems in their social networks be revealing a rapist who is otherwise ‘a good guy’ to everyone else!

      How do you expect anyone to react to that if neither of these 2 persons tell anyone about it?

      Well, you are talking about what can be done after the fact, and in the process you are blaming the individual victim for a) getting into the situation, and b) for not feeling strong enough to report it. You are not asking or looking at what can be done to prevent rape from the point of view of those that actually commit rape – men. You only talk and look at what WOMEN can do. And that is just plain wrong!

      And besides all these, have you for even one second considered the cases where women falsely accuse men of rape?

      And you wonder why women are reluctant to report rape? How does this affect it in any way? You are saying now that women reporting in anonymous surveys are making false accusations of sexual assault and rape? How does a false accusation change the circumstances of an actual rape?

      So, you are now using the ‘false rape allegation’ as a reason to not do anything about rape against women. You really are one fucking low-life piece of shit, Farang!

  39. Farang

    Mark

    You are saying now that women reporting in anonymous surveys are making false accusations of sexual assault and rape? How does a false accusation change the circumstances of an actual rape?

    Why do you make up something that I had said, even if I hadn’t. I never even talked about women lying in surveys. I was talking about reallife cases when women have actually falsely reported a rape, which never happened. This is one factor causing doubt, whether or not the actual rape has happened or not.

    Well, you are talking about what can be done after the fact, and in the process you are blaming the individual victim for a) getting into the situation, and b) for not feeling strong enough to report it. You are not asking or looking at what can be done to prevent rape from the point of view of those that actually commit rape – men.

    You constantly blame me of not giving answer to the question “how to prevent rapes”. Why is that? You can’t even give answer to that question yourself.

    When someone commits a crime, how can anyone a) know he is about to commit a crime and b) do anything to prevent it? It’s totally different thing when you see this happening in public place, then you can intervene. But when this is happening privately in a home where there are nobody else than rapist and his victim, there is absolutely no way to intervene, because nobody even knows it’s happening.

    I have given advice how people could try to avoid that kind of situations but in your opinion that is instulting. You still haven’t answered to the question what is so wrong in being careful and precautious? It’s no different than to stay out of dark alleys during night, especially at night, to avoid a situation where you could get robbed. You avoid answering to this question because it would reveal that it is actually sensible thing to do.

    You really are one fucking low-life piece of shit, Farang!

    As an adult, do you really consider that kind of language would help you get your point through? It’s not helping, but instead it eats your credibility.

    • Mark

      Farang

      Why do you make up something that I had said

      Look again, I put a question mark at the end. I want to clarify that you understand that this is what it appears you are saying. I asked that because you brought it up while we were in the middle of talking about surveys and the 90% and it just seemed to be yet another method to undermine the evidence on rape levels in Finland. As it is, I really don’t see what it has to do with real rape? I mean, I understand that it is an issue in its own right, and for anyone falsely accused of a sex crime, it must be particularly painful. But nothing we are talking about would actually make that more likely. It’s not an issue that needs to be addressed when talking about men raping! It just isn’t, and anyone that tries to bring it up in that debate really starts to cover themselves in shit…and I mean really nasty smelling shit, because it’s such an underhand and vicious thing to do! I think the irony that you did this not long after you said yourself that they should come forward was completely lost on you! It’s also a typical ‘men’s rights’ approach that opposes any women’s issue by trying to slide in a ‘men’s issue’ as if that had any kind of normal equivalence. There is just no equivalence, either in levels of crime or in the situation both before and after the crime. I will not discuss that with you! It’s disgusting and insulting to women that you even bring it up while talking about female rape. You just cast one big shit cloud over the whole topic, bringing women’s credibility as rape victims into question and allowing that to hang over the whole debate.

      Let’s just make it absolutely clear, if you are going to debate here, you are not going to do that! We are talking about ACTUAL rape that men do to women! That is the problem we are trying to address, and I will not have you bring another issue into this in such a way as to undermine that very serious problem in any way! That is so fucking male!

      You constantly blame me of not giving answer to the question “how to prevent rapes”. Why is that? You can’t even give answer to that question yourself.

      Not true. The whole discussion has been about how I think there is a solution and that it is men standing together and calling on other men to stop raping. I think this would have a very serious and important impact on rape, on attitudes towards women and on men’s own masculinity. I’m not suggesting this would ‘fix’ the problem in the sense of having 0 rapes, but I think this is what must happen, and I really cannot understand any male that isn’t prepared to make that commitment to women’s safety, basic human rights and value in society!

      When someone commits a crime, how can anyone a) know he is about to commit a crime and b) do anything to prevent it?

      You seem to be stuck at the moment a crime is taking place. Prevention is not a new concept, Farang. Why are you struggling to grasp what it means or how it works?

      I have given advice how people could try to avoid that kind of situations but in your opinion that is instulting

      It’s not just my opinion, as I have reminded you several times. I am trying to tell you what women think when men start telling them that the way to avoid rape is that they have to adjust their activities while nothing is said about what men should do, when the most obvious solution here is that men simply choose not to rape! Why should women not be in public places? Why should women not wear what they want to wear? Why should women not be able to drink in a bar, or even to be alone with a man in a private place without having to fear that a sex crime is going to be committed against her?

      You avoid answering to this question because it would reveal that it is actually sensible thing to do.

      I think it’s sensible to be street wise. Yes. But that is not a response to rape. Remember this all started by you trying to use rape statistics to bash on immigrants. When you argued that your ‘celebration’ of immigrant rape statistics was helpful to women to avoid rape, you revealed quite specifically that you do not have women’s interests at heart and that you couldn’t give two hoots for rape statistics, except that they allow you to bash on immigrants. This whole discussion with you since has only further emphasised this over and over. You’ve dug yourself in deeper and deeper. You could have just said that you accept that telling women to avoid immigrants as a way to avoid rape reflected very poor judgement on your part, in regard to the rape issue and in regard to the stigmatisation of immigrants that you so obviously set out to do.

      As an adult, do you really consider that kind of language would help you get your point through? It’s not helping, but instead it eats your credibility.

      Well that is a fucking joke! I have no credibility in your eyes whatsoever. You have made no effort whatsoever to validate any single part of my argument. I’ll start worrying about losing credibility in your eyes when you start showing some. In the meantime, I think I’m entitled to express just how angry I feel about your bare-faced ignorance. Take it or leave it.

  40. Farang

    Mark

    The whole discussion has been about how I think there is a solution and that it is men standing together and calling on other men to stop raping.

    That is just an idealistic phrase. How would you implement that in reality. Please tell me!

    It’s just easy to throw things like that in the air without a slightest idea how that could be put in to actions.

    Anyway, I’ll try one more time to voice my opinion, maybe this time you would approve this:

    How to prevent women from getting raped:

    solution: Men will stop raping
    actions for completing solution: X, Y, Z, …
    backup plan until solution is completed: be careful

    Would you now approve my advice to be careful? It’s not meant to be the answer as I’ve tried to say, but instead work as a temporary solution as longs as there are rapists out there.

    • Mark

      Farang

      That is just an idealistic phrase. How would you implement that in reality. Please tell me!

      It’s called setting goals, Farang, and ‘idealism’ as you put it, is a huge part of a functioning society.

      It’s just easy to throw things like that in the air without a slightest idea how that could be put in to actions.

      Now you are being lazy. Lazy thinking and lazy reading. I have already mentioned several settings through which campaigns can be organised. Workplace settings allow for education around the issue of sexual harrassment, but can of course extend to discussing the value of women. These are usually more productive when they are men-only discussions, as men are more honest and will discuss more openly in these situations. Schools are an obvious place where boys and girls can explore the issues around gender and sexuality, and where societies values of equality, human rights and safety can be reinforced. Doctors surgeries can provide information also to men on violence and sexual violence, including one would hope support services for men who feel they have a tendency to violence or to fantasing about rape to help them adjust and educate themselves. These kinds of services get used, Farang, so just because your brain cannot get itself around the idea doesn’t mean other people’s cannot either.

      For sure, some thought must always go into presenting this matter. The idea is not to scare women. Or educate men on how to rape. Usually involving men in men-only groups or seminars is better.

      But Finland has plenty of marketing and PR people who can work with experts and different grass roots organisations to help develop the message and find ways to get it home. That is what much public health work is about, for example. The mandate must come from the top down.

      How to prevent women from getting raped:

      solution: Men will stop raping
      actions for completing solution: X, Y, Z, …
      backup plan until solution is completed: be careful

      I applaud your attempt to integrate different opinions together into some kind of picture. It’s perhaps the first time that I have seen you do this. As it stands, I think that I wouldn’t argue with this, though it could be taken out of context. For example, suggesting that men stop raping with the notion that it’s only a solution if ALL men stop raping, and so if that is not achieved or even perceived as achievable, then nothing is done. One would expect a slow decline in rapes if society as a whole really committed to the values of sexual equality.

    • Mark

      Farang

      Just to go back to this point again: Joanna Lumley recently put her foot in it by offering some ‘well-heeled’ advice to young girls on how to avoid rape. The backlash from women was severe, and she’s certainly made herself look pretty dated with her comments. I’m not suggesting that all women were offended, and she has been defended by some who want to see it as just well-intention advice.

      However, when that advice means that the FIRST and only comment on rape focuses on what women can do and says nothing about what men can do, then it clearly falls well short of being useful advice. It’s not surprising too that attempts to focus on men by women have largely failed if the majority of men remain sullen and silent on the issue. The problem is masculinity, and this is constructed largely through a contract between men. This really is why men must also get involved in the project.

      This Farang, should leave you in no doubt about how many women view the comments that THEY should be the ones taking responsibiliity to avoid rape.

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