What PS MP aide Helena Eronen wrote about armbands for foreigners in Finland

by , under Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri 

Every month we’ve seen some sort of scandal coming from the Perussuomalaiset (PS) party. In April, which is only eleven days old, we already got another one by an aide who suggested in a blog entry that foreigners should start using armbands to help police distinguish who is an immigrant and who is a Finn. 

Eronen was hired as PS MP James Hirvisaari’s aide in January. Hirvisaari, a hard-core  anti-immigration extremist, was fined in December by a court for hate speech.

The PS MP defended in a  new blog entry on Uusi Suomi Eronen’s writing.

Eronen suggested on her blog entry today that foreigners should start using sleeve badges in order to help the police figure out rapidly who is a foreigner and who is a Finn. Her blog entry was directed at the Ombudsman for Minorities, which accused today the police of ethnic profiling.

Her opinion piece was published around midday and was deleted by Uusi Suomi in the afternoon.

She writes: “If every foreigner were required to use an armband of his/her national background, the police could immediately spot whether that ‘aha, that is a Muslim from Somalia’ or ‘aha. that is a beggar from Romania.’ Muslims could [use sleeve badges] with a half moon…Russians [with] a hammer and sickle, Kampucheans could have field mines, a burger [could be used to distinguish] USAmericans…”

Eronen  appears to like her own suggestion so much that she envisions a ceremony taking place.  “…take for example if a refugee from Kurdistan would get permanent residency [in Finland], his red half moon would be changed for a blue-white half moon when he’d become a Finnish citizen… Think about what an important moment in that Kurd’s life [if he would exchange his red half moon for a blue-white half moon at some ceremony at Immigration Service]. It would enforce integration and would make Finnish and Finnishness an important goal [for every immigrant to attain].”

The parliamentary aide suggests that potential terrorist could wear chips under their skins to monitor their movements.

One of the matters that has raised concern in Finland has been the PS’ ties with neo-Nazi groups like the Suomen Kansalinen Vastarinta. There has been concern as well of PS MPs like Hirvisaari who belong to extremist associations like Suomen Sisu.

If you visit Eronen’s Facebook page and go to photos, you’ll find one where she is wearing an army-looking cap with a flower emblem. The edelweiss flower was used by a mountain commando division in Hitler’s army.

    • Migrant Tales

      Kiitoksia Ossi. Hieno juttu, että olet postanut Erosen kirjoitus.

  1. Namen

    Sarcasm detect fail. In Ossi’s blog you can clearly see the text was a satire starting from the first chapter, making a bit of fun about the PS itself too.

    People should spend more time reading about things themselves instead of just trusting tabloid titles.

    • Migrant Tales

      Satire? Sure. Satire coming from an aide who works for PS MP James Hirvisaari, who was fined for hate speech. Was it a smart thing to do? Nope. It was offensive and an example of the type of atmosphere some PS members want to spread in Finland.

      Tabloid headlines? Is Turn Sanomat a tabloid? The story was also reported by Etelä-Suomen Sanomat of Lahti.

  2. Namen

    Oh, and since you mention the Edelweiss and Gebirgsjäger. They were Wehrmacht troops, not Waffen-SS.

    Gerbirgsjäger still exist in the German Army as of 2012. No reason to blame everything for Nazism.

  3. Mark

    Namen

    Sarcasm detect fail. In Ossi’s blog you can clearly see the text was a satire starting from the first chapter, making a bit of fun about the PS itself too.

    Yes, because the Holocaust and fascism are just the right topics to choose for sarcasm and satire!!!!

    PR disaster – again! Complete lack of political and human rights perspective – again! Lots of people crawling out of the woodwork to defend the completely crass – again!

  4. BlandaUpp

    This is completely out of order. Is this PS flirting with Nazi era Star of David iconography really the image we want to project of ourselves abroard?

    Is this the kind of society we want to raise our kids in?

    These people think they’re funny but when kids get bullied at school using the hateful fodder their bullies are fed by these PS idiots, it causes real damage.

    • Migrant Tales

      PS MP James Hirvisaari shortly came out protecting Helena Eronen and those that disagree do not understand satire. Yes, right, “satire” coming out of an aide that works for an MP who was fined for hate speech in December.

      I am just as concerned like you about these people. I too have asked the same question as you: Is this the kind of society I want to raise my kids?

      No it isn’t and that is why I write something on this blog at least once a day. It’s the least I could do for my children.

  5. justicedemon

    Though I only read the piece once in passing, I also thought it was satirical, and largely at the expense of PS. The article included the suggestion that if sleeve markings for foreigners were not practical or possible, then they could be introduced for Finnish citizens instead. It also pointed out that the Ombudsman for Minorities has received additional government funding to deal with a rising workload that is directly linked to a rise in complaints of ethnic profiling by the police. There was no suggestion that the budget allocation was misplaced or that such profiling was in any way justified. Rather the opposite: the piece seemed to be pointing out – in the style of C. Northcote Parkinson – that we effectively had public servants making useless work for one another.

    My understanding is that Helena Eronen has no declared political affiliation. The fact that she happens to be a parliamentary assistant to Hirvisaari may well be merely her misfortune, but I saw nothing in the blog article that would unambiguously support a finding of guilt by association. In fact suggestions of the same kind have been deployed before in this blog, for example when I have asked our more intellectually challenged contributors to explain the specific radar that enables them to tell in advance whether a person entering Finland is going to commit a crime.

    • Migrant Tales

      –My understanding is that Helena Eronen has no declared political affiliation.

      I’ve seen Muutos2011 on her Uusi Suomi profile. I don’t think she was a candidate, however, for that party in April.

  6. Elven archer

    Jonathan Swift proposed the poor should sell their children to rich gentlemen and ladies for food. I’m shocked!1! No wait! I am not, because he was not a “persu”. But if Helena would have written that I would be so shocked that I cried at least for a week. So even though Helena writes her tongue-in-cheek stories all the time and even though I really don’t see connection between holocaust and every freaking mention of sleeve badges (isn’t there laws against that kind of lack of connection? well, there should be because sleeve badges are bad, m’kay? that’s why you can buy them from stores.) this has to be very very bad. I comdemn this kind of funny stuff! No more humour.

    It offends people with no sense of humour and people who think everything is related to holocaust even in 2012 and in a different country. And you can’t mislead people with limited reading skills, you just can’t. It’s plain wrong. Their heads start to hurt when they try to figure these things out. It’s cruel. In what kind of country we are living in? Is humour really okay? I think not.This is outrageous. Think about fart jokes and people who have incontinence problems. Why do nobody think about people with farting problems!?! And we do those jokes too in Finland. I’m so shamed to call me a Finn now.

  7. Elven archer

    “Yes, right, “satire” coming out of an aide that works for an MP who was fined for hate speech in December.”

    It’s so nice that you don’t label people.

  8. Elven archer

    And what about the hamburger badges for Americans that Helena suggested? How can anyone say that with a straight face? Was Helena suggesting that Americans eat a lot of fast food? That a hamburger is some kind of symbol for America? I just can’t find words to describe how appalling this is. How this woman can be serious about these things?

    I eat burgers so I’m quite offended too. Should I be worried? After all Helena is Hirvisaari’s assistant. Hirvisaari was convicted because jury’s reading problems some say. That’s ridiculous in these days and age. People are clearly very good readers and obviously they recognise many different styles of writing. It’s just that Helena is a persu, so hamburger badges are wrong, get it?

    • Migrant Tales

      The thing that came to mind when Eronen mentioned hamburgers for USAmericans was a megaboard’s site called Ylitalo. They use these types of identification.

      I personally think it is a good matter that we are still horrified with the Holocaust and other horrors of WW2 that led to the deaths of tens of millions of people. If you read Eronen’s writings they are in the same vein as Hirvisaari and company when she starts to speak about immigrants and cultural diversity.

  9. D4R

    Elven archer: Jonathan Swift proposed the poor should sell their children to rich gentlemen and ladies for food. I’m shocked!1! No wait! I am not, because he was not a “persu”. But if Helena would have written that I would be so shocked that I cried at least for a week. So even though Helena writes her tongue-in-cheek stories all the time and even though I really don’t see connection between holocaust and every freaking mention of sleeve badges (isn’t there laws against that kind of lack of connection? well, there should be because sleeve badges are bad, m’kay? that’s why you can buy them from stores.) this has to be very very bad. I comdemn this kind of funny stuff! No more humour.

    It offends people with no sense of humour and people who think everything is related to holocaust even in 2012 and in a different country. And you can’t mislead people with limited reading skills, you just can’t. It’s plain wrong. Their heads start to hurt when they try to figure these things out. It’s cruel. In what kind of country we are living in? Is humour really okay? I think not.This is outrageous. Think about fart jokes and people who have incontinence problems. Why do nobody think about people with farting problems!?! And we do those jokes too in Finland. I’m so shamed to call me a Finn now.

    I am Somalian descent and i was highly offended by her, i don’t understand what’s to joke around stuff like that and to who that is humour, not to us for sure, even not to sweden Finns, my wife is one and she was offended as hell. Elven , now let’s joke about your dauther getting raped, will that be funny to you? will you laugh with me if i joke about your dauther?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hei Petri, tervetuloa Migrant Talesin. Siis tämä mitä kirjoitin on “maanpetturuutta?” Hmm. Etkö sinä ollut Muutos2011 puolueen ehdokas viime eduskunnan vaaleissa?

  10. Tim

    Why on earth do we tolerant anti-racist people have to be so stupid? Why do we understand every “persu” writing as we do?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Tim and welcome to Migrant Tales.

      –Why on earth do we tolerant anti-racist people have to be so stupid?

      Is it because there is something wrong with them? Is it a normal reaction of people who have little respect for others? I think so.

      The fact that society reacts to racism and social exclusion is a positive sign. Don’t you agree?

  11. Petri Kaivanto

    Valheen monistaminen vieraalle kielelle ja paisuttelu minusta on “maanpetturuutta”. Samaa harrasti tosin suuremmassa mittakaavassa eduskuntavaalien jälkeen Ulkoministeriö, joten ei mitään uutta auringon alla. Helena ei ehdottanut hihamerkkejä. Helena kritisoi Vähemmistövaltuutetun toimistoa ja YLEn uutisointia.

    Tässä hieman rautalankaa:

    http://kaivanto.blogspot.com/2012/04/toottailysta-ja-etnisesta.html
    http://henriheikkinen.puheenvuoro.uusisuomi.fi/102805-erosen-hihamerkit-ja-turun-sanomat

    Kyllä, olin myös Muutos 2011 hallituksen jäsen. Luovuin siitä, koska lähdin talvehtimaan Argentiinaan. Helena oli käsittääkseni puoluetoverini.

  12. Nick

    Among her photos there’s also picture wit Russian fur-hat and Red Army side cap. Oh wait, there’s also picure with “I resist racism.”

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Nick and welcome to Migrant Tales. It’s just an ideological thing. Some find attraction to fascism while others don’t. Separately, Helena Eronen was a candidate of Muutos2011, which based most of their platform on anti-immigration and anti-Islam. So that kind of reveals some of her thoughts on the topic.

      The question you should be asking is why we should avoid forgetting the horrors of WW2 and of other wars, external or internal, like what happened in countries like the former Soviet Union. There is something that makes them strikingly similar: they are intolerant of dissension.

      It’s the same case with Muutos2011, PS, Vapauspuolue and a few others.

  13. Mark

    Taking the mickey out of historical fascism might be hilarious to some, but this smacks of political naivety and a lack of sensibilities. I wonder how the Jews in Finland feel about this satirical ‘masterpiece’!

    I disagree that this was taking the mickey mostly out of PS, I think it was targeted squarely at their critics. The way that several posters have come here immediately on the attack shows exactly the kind of low road political capital that this was designed to gain.

    Write something provocative and totally disrespectful to the history of Europe’s battle with fascism and its excesses and then hide behind the banner of ‘humour’. Anyone who doesn’t like it hasn’t got a sense of humour, that’s always good for a giggle and sneer.

    And this from a party that constantly degrade immigrants and writes manifestos that demand second-class citizenship for immigrants in Finland.

    What was it that Chaucer wrote, Elven?

    Many a true word said in jest!

  14. Matt

    Nazism and fasism is coming back to Finland. Eronen’s block is one example. But one other is more dangerous. And I’m talking about Iron Sky movie. It admires very openly nazis and their actions. In last weeks, it has been among the most watched movies in Finland. It is shameful that such a movie has been made in Finland, and it is more harmful for Finlands reputation than that one blog writing.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Matt and welcome to Migrant Tales. Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Nazism and especially fascism in a 2010s context is making its way to Finland. It got a beachhead in the April election. I haven’t seen Iron Sky but my initial reaction is that: a fascination with that wretched period. I guess we’ll have to see the movie to understand it better. Have you seen the movie?

      Finland was a so-called “co-belligerent” of Nazi Germany during the Continuation War (1941-44). They don’t use the term “minor ally” in Finland to not try to put it in the same group as Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania. Fortunately we had a very small Jewish population in Finland back then. Even so, I am pretty certain that if Nazi Germany would have won the war, those few Jews would have been sent to concentration camps.

      We mustn’t forget that. People who flirt with Nazism and fascism are too young to know the horrors of those times.

    • Migrant Tales

      Petri, did I say she was a candidate? Nope.

      You guys, Muutos2011, has had a rocky yet short history. Juha Mäki-Ketelä’s short-lived stint reveals a lot about the party.

      But I’ll be honest with you, Muutos2011 would be one of the last parties I’d ever vote for despite your assurances about being pro-direct democracy. One of the biggest agendas of the party is anti-immigration and anti-Islam.

      But let me ask you an honest question and get the answer straight from the horse’s mouth: Are you in favor of cultural diversity in Finland?

    • Migrant Tales

      –When I read Helen Eronen´s suggestions for first time, I immediately understood that it must be just a joke.

      Then you must have the same type of humor as her.

  15. Toni

    If you flirt with socialism (Russia, China) or nationalism (arabs) it is much worse. They have caused much more horror to world. And don’t forget the horrors of capitalism and others. Some say capitalism have killed 147 million people…

  16. Greek

    I have “have your say” here after being quiet for a while. Several fact these people forgetting while giving these speeches.

    1-What patches would atheists and jews would wear?
    2-What patches Finns should wear in elsewhere than Finland?

    Do you have any idea of the mass of Finnish tourist and residents in Spain, Greece and Turkey? Probably more than the foreigners of these nationals residint in Finland. How would they feel if the Finns were patched, beaten or be in the similar circumstances as some immigrants in Finland?

    A person with quarterly functioning brain would figure this out.

  17. Joonas

    It was hard to believe the story when I read it from the news. I can believe it was a “satire” or “sarcasm”, but considering her job this was a very stupid move. Number one rule in politics: don’t use sarcasm, it always will be misinterpret. Did she really think there wouldn’t be a political scandal about this?

    Matt and Migrant Tales
    “And I’m talking about Iron Sky movie. It admires very openly nazis and their actions. In last weeks, it has been among the most watched movies in Finland.”
    “I haven’t seen Iron Sky but my initial reaction is that: a fascination with that wretched period.”

    If you guys are joking, then I can probably laught with you. But if you serious about this then I don’t know if I should just cry. How Iron Sky openly admires nazis? It is a comedy about moon nazis! Even the whole movie concept is already laughable so I don’t understand how anyone could take this seriously. And top of that, the nazis are still the “bad guys” in the movie. Have you ever seen movies such as “The Great Dictator (1940)”, “The Producers (1968)” etc.? Do you think they are also “admires very openly nazis and their actions”?

  18. Laputis

    Migrant Tales, it´s very easy.

    Helen Eronen´s suggestions were so crazy, that they must have been:
    a) joke
    b) expression of schizophreny

    Since I don´t believe somebody can be so openly schizo and at same time working in Finnish parliament, I concluded those sayings must have been joke. I don´t have to share or unshare sense of humour with Helen Eronen, it was simply rather obvious her suggestions were supposed to be as joke. It was just very difficult to believe her sayings would be something real.

  19. Laputis

    Mark

    “A joke at who’s expense?”

    At PS expense. Helen Eronen was sarcastic and making irony about PS party image as “neo-nazis”,

    Although I would say, that Helen Eronen is playing with fire with her sayings, because many people misunderstood her. Not only Enrique here misunderstood, but also few Russian news channels took her writings out of context.

    • Mark

      Of course people will take this at face value, including news aggregators.

      What strikes me as disappointing is that rather than work to undermine the stereotyping of immigrants, she’s more concerned with the reputation of PS. In fact, if anything, the piece she wrote only perpetuates the stereotypes and stigmatisation that her bosses have been feeding about immigrants. Likewise, the massacre of millions can never be a matter for political jokes. It’s more than bad taste, it’s a betrayal of political values.

  20. I am

    Hi dear all, Hi dear MT, Hi and Good morning to freedom of speech, Hi and Good morning to me and my peaceful wish, Hi to children , young, old, all people in Finland and the world

    Ha ha ha ha, U Helena Eronen and U PS listen to me, UR ideas about me is nothing for me, i
    dont care not at all about u guys, U cant change me with ur hate, i am who lives with love and love is my supporter but i have peaceful Hi for u too, Hi is means health and heal to u in my mother tangue so please taste it.

    Okay i just want look at ur eyes Helena Eronen and ask u? what r u really thinking about foreigners, immigrants, refugee people and who is not looks like u????
    Can u please understand what R U really doing with ur hate words against us???
    U dont know me at all?Do u think that am very happy for am living in Finland??? NOOOO
    Because U and ur voters, people who thinks are superman and woman made it so hard for me, but my happiness is in my heart and my power.
    I was spending my golden time on ur mother language, Finnish language, YES its true, for to know u better, for to understand u more and more, for contact to u, for make a peaceful life for me but finally i saw me in the middle of hate, racist and cruel people what benefits had Finnish language for me?
    For be workless, for knock on close doors, for immagine my parents face all the time, for crying blood tears, for reading ur hateful words on the net, R U FEEL HAPPY NOW????

    I will not be proud of my Finnish citizenship, noooo why should i be??? truely why???
    I know my rights in Finland and am standing for my right always, I know whats humanity about, whats life about and am very hard worker u need to know that am here, wash ur eyes PS what u r doing aganist me it will works against u, because ur hate will grow in ur life and not my life, i know how to care about my garden in my life, i have only love Seeds and i never searching for hate seeds.

    I love my culture, my own food, my decoration at home, my mother language, its very normal for all of us, and u try to inform me that am not okay because am not ur twin????
    Ha ha ha , again ha ha ha
    Am not looks like u, my skin is not white, am not Finland, Am not thinking like U.
    I dont want to be like u, no never, am glad for what i am and have many thanks to GOD the master of universe for it.
    Where r ur voters PS???They must answer to themselves, their conscience is with them in their heart and mind.
    Even ur name is racist, true Finns, ha ha ha haaaaaaaa, so u r true Finns, but who is not true FINN????

    U PS cant chnage my lovely minds to hate, u cant make me feel like u, u cant hide my smile, u cant make me think that all Finns are like u as i know
    Finns are different, like our fingers, look at ur hand, look at ur fingers, are they have same size and act???
    So U finns too, i understanding this matter very well, I love u Finns, blessing to all of us, me and all, PS too we r ONE
    Peace and love to all

  21. Arto

    Enrique, you have very little reason to be proud of this archetype propaganda of yours. I am also against racism, but I also feel that the truth must not be sacrificed, no matter how good the cause. I am even more sad about the quality of our journalism in general. The article by Turun Sanomat was outrageous. What role does the truth have in press any longer? Some journalists have completely lost their sense of responsibility. This is pure witch-hunt we have been seeing lately. I am more worried about that atmosphere than I am about racism.

    Nobody – expect a complete moron – would interpret this Helena’s blog writing literally.

    • Mark

      Arto

      I am more worried about that atmosphere than about racism

      You can’t have been very worried about racism then, if you were distracted so easily.

  22. Arto

    “I am”, how many of Helena’s blog writings have you read? Perhaps you should read at least one before blaming her for anything. And I mean read it directly, not via Enrique’s or anyone else’s propaganda filters.

  23. joku

    I have not read Eronen’s column and therefore cannot comment on that.

    However, I read your comments above and some of you are saying things roughly summarised as “yes, so maybe this text was just satirical and did not actually advocate armbands BUT because her name has been somehow linked with racist groups somewhere, her text MUST HAVE BEEN RACIST regardless of what it says”

    Isn’t this just the kind of blind labeling we are fighting against here?
    Isn’t it the same kind of behaviour as idiots saying that if a Somali citizen has committed a crime, most Somali citizens might etc?

    We should not get carried away by passionate feelings, because that might lead into unwise words and acts.

    People can change, and they should! You should not label things as evil just because you have strong feelings about the general issue,

    Always try to be rational and just. It’s difficult, but two wrongs don’t make a right.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Jack and welcome to Migrant Tales. In response to your answer no. However, what does it say about you if you use emblems that can link you to the Nazi period? It’s a bit like her column: Should I publish it and what impact will it have. Does it offend people? It’s called social grace.

  24. Arto

    Mark, what do you mean “distracted so easily”? I am not talking about just this single case. We have seen dozens of similar cases in the past few years, including not only press articles but also verdicts in court. Halla-aho’s verdict was a miscarriage of justice in my opinion. I am much more worried about the diminishing freedom of speech than I am about increase of rasicm (of which I have not seen as strong evidence). I also wonder if sense of humour will eventually die out in this country. I don’t like taboos. I think humour is a way to deal with _almost_ everything in life, even with difficult issues.

  25. I am

    Hi Arto,
    How r u brother?
    How was ur today? Wish all is okay and great for u, smile.
    Thats my first time that i am reading her blog and thats enough for me to know what she is
    thinking about me??? it is completely enough and i have a big thanks for it to Enrique.
    Who siad she is better than me or i am better than her???? Who knows me here???? No one, am alone between my problems that Finnish law and system made it for me, who is
    creator of law, system in here?
    One drop of water slowly slowly will make a river, ocean and sea
    So hate and love

    What she is thinking when she wants separate me from other people with her band???
    Whats mean her idea?? IT is racist i have no doubt dear Arto. I am coming here without problems, full of Energy, hope and a big head for reading and studing, for build a new life for me for laugh with Finns and others, but Helena laugh at me and make fun about me, oh bands, colourful bands???but what i got was hate, htae is not okay for our health, i dont want to get it all the time, am human, i have heart, like u Arto, like Helena, we have all humanity race, whats more important than this???
    I wish u a happy day Arto a happy day for u and ur family
    Peace peace peace

  26. Mark

    Arto

    I am of the same mind when it comes to humour Arto. I am also in favour of free speech (and the responsibilities that go with it), and at no point have I or anyone here suggested she wasn’t free to write this piece.

    Equally, we are free to criticise it as naive, opportunistic and in bad taste.

    After all, the joke lampoons immigrants; it doesn’t mention PS or any politicans in Finland, so it’s a bit of a stretch to say it’s lampooning the PS party. It’s lampooning PS’s critics, indirectly, and their accusations about Nazism.

    As you’ve brought it up, why in your opinion was Halla-aho’s verdict a miscarriage of justice in your opinion?

    You say you haven’t seen strong evidence of racism in Finland? What evidence have you seen and what have you done to seek evidence?

  27. Mikko Ellilä

    The blog post in question was a satirical comment to people who had complained about policemen who had stopped foreign-looking persons on the street (Eastern Europeans, apparently Gypsies from Romania or Bulgaria) to ask them to show their passports.

    The idiots who complained about this thought it was “racist” of these policemen to assume that the Gypsies who looked like they were born in India were “foreign-looking” by Finnish standards. An MP’s secretary wrote a blog post in which she rhetorically asked whether it would be better to require foreigners to wear armbands signifying their nationality, so that police wouldn’t have to make “racist assumptions” of people’s ethnicities on the basis of their racial features.

    The secretary in question, Helena Eronen, wrote jokingly that for Americans the logo to signify their nationality would be a picture of a hamburger!! Anybody who can read and write understands that this was a joke.

    The newspapers who published articles about this blog post are deliberately lying. The journalists who wrote these stories are pretending to be illiterate. They should all be fired for being totally unethical by distorting key facts and thus gravely misleading the public.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Mikko and welcome to Migrant Tales. I believe that in ever case we have to take the opinions of others into consideration. For example, it is illegal for the police to stop a person due to his or her ethnic background (ethnic profiling). We can see the same problem when looking at Helena Eronen’s blog entry on sleeve emblems. Was it a smart thing to write about, even sarcastically, if people would be offended by it? Maybe this reveals the whole problem: some of us lack social grace; we insult and turn off more people than inspire them with our words and example.

      Social ills like racism, prejudice and exclusion are expensive for any society. The more you stoke and fan the flames of these fires, the more expensive it will be to the tax payer.

      Our society is polarized at present and this does not spell anything good for us in the short and long run. Does Helena Eronen’s blog entry promote “us” of does it promote “them?” Does it make our society more polarized or more united?

  28. Arto

    @ I am: if you really have read Helena’s original article, I am sure you have not understood correctly what she was trying to say. It was not meant to be read literally. I have read several articles of her’s, without finding evidence of racism.

    @Mark: What Turun Sanomat did or what Enrique did above with his article is much more than just “criticise it (Helena’s blog writing) as naive, opportunistic and in bad taste”. These were defaming a person and quite outrageously so.

    Case Halla-aho: the blog writing was to demonstrate the double standards in our country (especially in the press) depending on which ethnic group (the Finnish or some minority) are written about. It used true examples from the press (mocking the native Finnish), then switched the roles with imaginary examples, explaining that similarly written texts about ethnic minorities would cause a completely different reaction. For me, it was easy to get the point. For some others, it turned out to be impossible. Getting a verdict in court about that was just ridiculous.

    • Migrant Tales

      –What Turun Sanomat did or what Enrique did above with his article is much more than just “criticise it (Helena’s blog writing) as naive, opportunistic and in bad taste”. These were defaming a person and quite outrageously so.

      Arto, in the first place this is a blog and on a blog we can be opinionated. What is “naive, opportunistic and in bad taste” by what I wrote? Most of what was written is directly from the horse’s mouth, or from Helena Eronen.

      But if you want to see some “naive, opportunistic and bad taste” writing, go to Scripta or why not go deeper and read James Hirvisaari’s blog?

  29. Sasu

    Tämähän on onni meille. Tälläisillä lausunnoilla perussuomalaiset vain hajottavat rivejänsän. Samalla he tekevät itsensä naurun alaiseksi.

    Oli paljon enemmän huolissaan jos perussuomalaisten äärirasistinen siipi alkaisi oikeasti käyttäytyä ihmisiksi. Silloihan he voisivat todellakin alkaa saada laajaa kannatusta. Nyt he ovat vain pieni joukko ääliöitä jotka kyllä pitävät kovaa ääntä mutta eivät ole mikään uhka kenellekkään muulle kuin itselle.

    Jotkut sanoivat viime vaaleissa perussuolaisten rasisti siiven olevan ravakki pukuisia rasisteja. Puhuttiin salonki kelpoisesta rasismista. Näyttää siltä että se rasismi on kuolut jo ajassitten jos ikinä oli olluttaa. Perussuomalaisten rasistit eivät ole mitään Suomen David Duke vastineita.

    David Duke on mukava ja älykkäs rasisti Amerikassa. Kuului KKK ja on toiminut uudenlaisen äärirasismin keulakuvana.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Oli paljon enemmän huolissaan jos perussuomalaisten äärirasistinen siipi alkaisi oikeasti käyttäytyä ihmisiksi.

      Hyvin sanottu, Sasu. Se on nyt niin, että joka kerta kun joku PS edustaja avaa suuta, sieltä joskus pompahtaa iso sammakko.

  30. Arto

    @Mark: sorry, forgot the last one. I wrote about _increase_ of racism in Finland. This is one of Enrique’s favorite claims. I don’t live in Helsinki but I live in one of the biggest cities in Finland anyway. I have not been able to personally observe such increase. Instead, I have seen many cases in the press that have been said racistly motivated even though we have later found out that it was not actually the case or there was no evidence of that. Those cases have made the credibility of such claims quite questionable, but how could I know what the truth is about the situation? I don’t know.

    • Migrant Tales

      –This is one of Enrique’s favorite claims (increase of racism in Finland).

      Racism has always existed in Finland; sometimes it shows itself more than others. You don’t think that the April election has given racism and prejudice more moving space in Finland? I do.

  31. Toni

    >Tämähän on onni meille. Tälläisillä lausunnoilla perussuomalaiset vain hajottavat rivejänsän. Samalla he tekevät itsensä naurun alaiseksi.

    ??
    Et siis halua laittomia maahanmuuttajia pois Suomesta?

    • Migrant Tales

      Toni, mitä tarkoitat: “Et siis halua laittomia maahanmuuttajia pois Suomesta?”

      Voitko selittää vähän enemmän mitä sun pointti on?

  32. Arto

    @Enrique: “Hyvin sanottu, Sasu. Se on nyt niin, että joka kerta kun joku PS edustaja avaa suuta, sieltä joskus pompahtaa iso sammakko.”

    Tai sitten siitä tehdään tarkoituksella vääristellen mediassa se iso sammakko, vaikka se ei todellisuudessa sellainen olisikaan. Se ei ole oikein.

  33. Toni

    >Toni, mitä tarkoitat: “Et siis halua laittomia maahanmuuttajia pois Suomesta?”
    >Voitko selittää vähän enemmän mitä sun pointti on?

    Jos kerran ulkomaalaisilta ei saa kysyä, että ovatko he maassa laillisesti, niin miten ne maassa laittomasti oleskelevat voi erottaa laillisesti oleskelevista? Siksihän Eronen humorisisti esitti ajatuksen, että laitetaan kaikille laillisesti maassa oleville hihamerkki. Ja saman tien voisi asian viedä pidemmälle ja erotella muutkin vähemmistöryhmät toisistaan, jotta vastaavilta loukkaantumisilta vältytään jatkossakin…

  34. Mark

    Arto

    These were defaming a person and quite outrageously so.

    Tell me which parts of the above post defamed Helena? It appears to be only factual observations and a bit of background about her boss. Draw your own conclusions from that.

    It seems what is ‘outrageousness’ here is the way Helena chose to be satirical using a quite obvious analogy to the Nazi’s stigmatisation of immigrants and minority groups. That’s fairly outrageous, if you ask me.

    In regard to the Halla-aho case, am I right in saying that to illustrate his point that hate speech rules meant he couldn’t be critical of Islam, he then wrote something that was considered hate speech, by way of example of being critical of Islam? It’s a bit like saying, “theft is illegal, and just to illustrate, I’ll steal this car so you all can see what I mean”. Or did I miss something?

    I have not been able to personally observe such increase.

    Do you think an increase in racism would be noticeable to individuals, either by you or I? I don’t think it would necessarily be. We don’t hear about everything that happens, for sure. I would have thought it’s very difficult to assess racism levels, even with statistics. A decrease in ‘hate crimes’ for example can and has in the past reflected less trust in police services rather than a reduction in racism. In that sense, it’s very important to listen to what foreigners are saying about racism. But the tendency tends to be to immediatly cast doubt. That atmosphere of distrust reminds me of how certain groups come to be made social outcasts. Think of how the opinions of women have been systematically devalued in the public space up until recently in many Western countries. The measure of a group’s public voice is also a measure of how they are viewed by those groups that weild the power.

    Second, it’s very hard to identify racism in the job market, other than to look at qualifications and other demographic data and compare that to that of other similarly qualified populations. These show that qualified immigrants are not being employed in jobs that fit their status. The question then is why? Again, other studies about employers in Finland do show that some employers are rejecting immigrant candidates on the basis that they are perceived as ‘not fitting in’ to the workforce. It’s all a vicious circle and not an easy one to make visible. However, rather than investigate further, many commentators are quick to say ‘prove it’, when it comes to racism, when such a demand is extremely unhelpful and unrealistic. It’s just not how it works and it takes only a little common sense to understand that.

    I think that deciding racism levels on the basis of media stories is also unwise. Yes, the media calling racism when it either cannot be proved or is actively disproved does not help the racism debate. However, we shouldn’t even be looking to discredit the racism discussion purely on the basis of media reports, in the same way that we cannot accept media reports as an adequate way of assessing social well-being in Finland, of any group.

    I’m concerned that ideas about those immigrants who clearly need more time to adapt and more support are going to face a great deal of stigmatisation: for being lazy, for being stupid, for being illitirate, for being welfare shoppers, for being Islamic extremists, for being paranoid about racism, for being completely against all Western values etc.

    The speed with which discussion of immigration in Finland turns to these extreme forms of categorisation is swift indeed. And that’s one thing that worries me. It’s the automatic assocation of immigrants with ‘problems’, problems that are by definition nothing new or seperate from the normal social problems that afflict various groups in a population that have different or specific needs. And yet these ‘problems’ are taken out of context, exaggerated and presented in such an emotionally and morally charged way that it tends to polarise debate and create unnecessary tension.

    Finland has the right to control immigration levels. Clearly it is pointless taking in more people than can be properly accommodated by integration services. The net benefit of immigration has been shown to be small, but it is a net benefit. The benefit in participating in a modern global democratic arena is perhaps intangible, but it does establish Finland as a country that subscribes to a proper human rights framework. Everything I see coming out of PS in regard to immigration seems to be challenging that framework, with very little thought to the consequences. While Helena’s comments can be taken as satire, they do not depart so far from the spirit of the Nuiva vaalimanifesti, which seeks to place severe social and economic restrictions on immigrants, and is strongly advocated by her political boss.

  35. Arto

    @ I am: Mikko Ellilä explained it very well in his text above. If you could read Helena’s blog texts which are written in Finnish, you should be able to read his explanation, too.

    @Mark: a long writing, I hope to read it completely later, sorry about the delay. Just briefly about case Halla-aho. Quote: “am I right in saying that to illustrate his point that hate speech rules meant he couldn’t be critical of Islam, he then wrote something that was considered hate speech, by way of example of being critical of Islam? It’s a bit like saying, “theft is illegal, and just to illustrate, I’ll steal this car so you all can see what I mean”. Or did I miss something?”

    I think you probably missed his point that the press can write hate speech about native Finns even in editorial articles without getting punished. One example he used was from newspaper Kaleva, saying: “getting drunk and killing people is possibly a distinctive, perhaps even genetic feature of the Finnish people”. The question he asked was: What if Kaleva would write about some other ethnic group in a similar manner, based on comparable stereotypes. One of these is considered acceptable in our society, whereas the other is not. That is, you can say whatever you want about the native Finns, but you need to be very, very careful about what you say or write about anyone else. That is the double standard he was demonstrating.

    • Mark

      Arto

      I think that Finns writing about Finnish character is a different thing to Finns writing about the character of foreigners in Finland, especially when accompanied by an anti-immigration political agenda.

      The example you gave is interesting because there might well be some truth in it (alcohol addiction and genetics) and I also notice that the word ‘possibly’ was used, which further softens the tone. Several studies have shown a genetic component to addictive behaviors, for example, though i couldn’t say anything about the homicide remark.

      Also, one person writing speculatively in an editorial discussing social problems in Finland probably doesn’t equate with a political party spewing constantly negative stereotypes about a minority living in Finland. The social and political ramifications are likely to be totally different, don’t you think?

  36. Väinämöinen

    Sasu and others.

    I have to challenge you. There are a few black people who say that they have never really faced racism in Finland. The other lives in a place where there are no other black people and the other in Finland. They exclude so called ”yelling in the street.”

    So I wonder why you are blowing up racism to this magnitude? It is good to remember that racism is also dual, working both ways. To make up racism of something that is not racism, is abusing the real value of the discussion.

    Does Migrant Tales need A BIG BLACK GUY SHOUTING LOUD: ”STOP THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT NOW”, to get the right proportions?

    • Migrant Tales

      Väinämöinen, take a look at the main headlines coming out of the PS yesterday and today. It’s right under your nose.

    • Mark

      Vaimanoinen

      I really do hope for all our sakes that there are at least some black in Finland who have not been subject of racism or xenophobia. Pitt should be noted that Kenyans on the whole speak excellent English and this generally brings a much warmer welcome from Finns.

      The fact you dismiss racial harassment on the street as irrelevant is however unacceptable to me. This kind of verbal assault can be particularly destructive to race relations, or are you saying that the feelings of foreigners don’t matter?

  37. Arto

    @Mark, there is no point of me explaining it all to you, unless of course if you cannot read Finnish and therefore the original writings directly. Please advice.

    • Mark

      Arto

      Why are you backing out now? A couple of sentences of explanation from you is all I ask about how you understand it. You did, after all, bring it into the discussion.

  38. Sasu

    Väinämöinen. Oletko sinä se oikea ihminen kertomaan rasismista ja sen olemassa olosta.
    Rasismi on muutakin kuin vihaa. Rasismi on ideologia, joka asettaa tietyn ihmis tyypin normaaliksi ja kaikki muu on eksoottista tai vaarallista.

  39. I am

    With respect for All
    Finland is a racist country, If u think what am saying is meaningless, thats because u dont have my pain, u dont have my experience in here, what happened to me was not important for u, u dont care about and u say i am wonder, its not true, u done something worng, u r

    guilty, all is perfect here, u r liar, u have problem, u r this and u r that, u can put mark on me but it cant change fact, fact is fact we cant stand up against facts.
    U have no idea that how racist people can play with ur life whenthey control ur life???
    U dont have freedom of speech, u cant debate, if u debate u should go to jail, to court and many hard things will happen to u,
    R u a Finn??
    R u a foreigner??
    Immigrants??? refugee, woman, man, grand mother, father,….
    If u say there is not racist here in Finland u r %1000 asupporter of racist, racist is a virus, u cant close ur eyes on but u cant protect ur life from Racist.
    Can U find an organization here in Finalnd that is completey for human rights_????
    NO its not possible, there r many places with different names but when u complain about racist everybody will say sorry and will close the door at ur face
    If u want more information just look at MT, u cant say we r all liars, can u???
    Bets to u all

  40. Arto

    @ Mark: “Tell me which parts of the above post defamed Helena?”

    Enrique gives an impression that Eronen suggested something crazy that she (factually) did not. He also gives an impression that Eronen is nazi-spirited, which – I believe – she is not.

    It seems to me that the truth is not one of Enrique’s top values.

    • Mark

      Arto

      In which party of her original writing did she tell her audience that she was joking, just for the record, and which part of Enrique’s quotes were factually incorrect?

    • Mark

      Arto

      Fair enough. Please enlighten me further about Halla-aho’s case.

  41. eyeopener

    Hi Clapotis

    “When I read Helen Eronen´s suggestions for first time, I immediately understood that it must be just a joke”.

    Maybe your understanding comes from being a joke yourself!!

  42. Mark

    I am

    Finland is a racist country

    I think this is unhelpful and untrue to say this. I don’t think any ‘country’ can be labelled racist, unless you are talking about an apartheid South Africa or a slave-owning America.

    There are racists in Finland but there are also a great many people opposed to racism, and so calling Finland ‘a racist country disrespects these people, while not really doing anything to get at what’s important, which is looking at the racism in Finland.

    However, I take nothing at all away from the rest of what you wrote.

  43. Arto

    @Mark: “In which party of her original writing did she tell her audience that she was joking”

    “Tell her audience”? Perhaps you are joking yourself now? The joke/sarcasm/irony must have been clear for any sane reader with adequate skills in Finnish language.

    “just for the record, and which part of Enrique’s quotes were factually incorrect?”

    It is not whether the quotes are incorrect or not. I kind of believe you are clever enough to understand that.

    • Mark

      Arto

      I think the satire became more apparent the more you read. However the point behind the satire was not at all clear. Was she parodying PS or critics of PS? It could easily be argued either way. Likewise, as this was directed at the minorities ombudsmen, one can assume it was probably a sarcastic reply to the idea that Finnish police have been profiling foreigners.

      While Helena’s true views about immigration have to be guessed at, the fact she works for Hirvisaari means that the links with Suomen Sisu are not exactly irrelevant. Enrique writes like a journalist, no question about that, but his instincts appear to be spot on with this one, in my view.

  44. Arto

    “Why are you backing out now? A couple of sentences of explanation from you is all I ask about how you understand it.”

    All this writing takes time that is out of something else, and I happen to be somewhat busy right now. It is not just typing two sentences, it is also about coming back to the original text and thinking how that can be briefly summarized for you. Therefore, if you can read Finnish, it would ease my job to give a reference to the original text and its later explanations by the original author.

  45. D4R

    Sasu: Tämähän on onni meille. Tälläisillä lausunnoilla perussuomalaiset vain hajottavat rivejänsän. Samalla he tekevät itsensä naurun alaiseksi.

    Oli paljon enemmän huolissaan jos perussuomalaisten äärirasistinen siipi alkaisi oikeasti käyttäytyä ihmisiksi. Silloihan he voisivat todellakin alkaa saada laajaa kannatusta. Nyt he ovat vain pieni joukko ääliöitä jotka kyllä pitävät kovaa ääntä mutta eivät ole mikään uhka kenellekkään muulle kuin itselle.

    Jotkut sanoivat viime vaaleissa perussuolaisten rasisti siiven olevan ravakki pukuisia rasisteja. Puhuttiin salonki kelpoisesta rasismista. Näyttää siltä että se rasismi on kuolut jo ajassitten jos ikinä oli olluttaa. Perussuomalaisten rasistit eivät ole mitään Suomen David Duke vastineita.

    David Duke on mukava ja älykkäs rasisti Amerikassa. Kuului KKK ja on toiminut uudenlaisen äärirasismin keulakuvana.

    Olen samaa mieltä sinun kanssa paitsi se kohta jossa sanoit David Duken olevan mukava.

  46. D4R

    It’s Funny how some are coming here trying to explain Helena Eronen’s comment, guys stop it, there’s nothing to be explained anymore, she blew it up, trying to explain her comment will only make you appear stupid, it’s fair now to say that P.S party is a political joke party.

  47. I am

    Hi Mark,
    Thank u Mark u r right its unhelpful i know that
    But MT is the only place that i can talk,
    I know that there r good people too i said that in my all comments, but when i say Finland is a racist country , that is, i mean not that lands and forests or buildings, nice Finns are racist but i mean racist is what is controling this country, and thats true.
    Have a great night Mark

  48. eyeopener

    Hi Namen.

    “Oh, and since you mention the Edelweiss and Gebirgsjäger. They were Wehrmacht troops, not Waffen-SS.

    Gerbirgsjäger still exist in the German Army as of 2012. No reason to blame everything for Nazism”

    Wrong information my dear Namen. Edelweiss symbols were certainly used by the Waffen-SS that include several units of “Gebirgsjäger”. Even their sniper champions have been in the Operation Barbarossa.

    Simple historic findings. Forgot some important information?? Or just want to brush it under the carpet??

    Some education needed for you. History: grade: FAIL!! Just a joke!! A satire message I guess.

    So simple.

  49. Pekka Ylinen

    To Enrique Tessieri …

    I don’t know if you can Finnish or not…maybe some of your friends have informed you about the whole story. Well, anyway, just for your own information, the whole blog entry by H. Eronen has been written with a sarcastic overtone.

    Do you know what sarcasm is like? Check it out in Wikipedia. Now.

    Do you, Enrique, really believe that people mean always what they say or write. I honestly suggest that you go and start reading books and civilize yourself.

    The are many wonders for you to find out.

  50. Toni

    Every country have racism. Finland is the least racist country in the world. Ask any foreigner who has experience on living in many countries. We have many foreigners in our work place who tell Finland is the best place for foreigners.

    >Väinämöinen, take a look at the main headlines coming out of the PS yesterday and today. It’s right under your nose.

    Yes, the problem is that if Osmo Soininvaara or Päivi Lipponen says something, you don’t care, but if some PS member says just similar, you go grazy!

    And you don’t seem to understand why Eronen wrote what she wrote? What was the inspiration for it…

  51. Väinämöinen

    D4R

    ”I am Somalian descent and i was highly offended by her, i don’t understand what’s to joke around stuff like that and to who that is humour, not to us for sure, even not to sweden Finns, my wife is one and she was offended as hell.”

    Are you two still playing the victim-role? 🙂 Or did you grow up yet?

    I think you should say, ‘Swedish speaking Finn’. Perhaps Migrant Tales knows the right term.

  52. eyeopener

    Hi Pekka.

    Your whole message is a satire. Wikipedia freaks!! Unbelievable simple!! Nothing else to do??

    Not just a joke or satire this Ms Erroren ( Eronen is her real name). Got the joke??

  53. eyeopener

    Let’s take Ms Eronen’s message sarcastically. Right??

    She must make the Finnish police feel absolutely stupid and a bunch of “idiots”. She states (sarcastically of course) that Finnish police (without these sleev bandages) are unable to identify foreigners even if they are identifiable by colour, outlook or other signs.

    Do I have to believe that the Finnish police are a “bunch of stupid and ignorant people”?? (I mean this as A JOKE. Read this as SARCASM). HELP!!!

    Just a joke, isn’t it Ms Eronen??

  54. D4R

    Väinämöinen: D4R

    ”I am Somalian descent and i was highly offended by her, i don’t understand what’s to joke around stuff like that and to who that is humour, not to us for sure, even not to sweden Finns, my wife is one and she was offended as hell.”

    Are you two still playing the victim-role? Or did you grow up yet?

    I think you should say, ‘Swedish speaking Finn’. Perhaps Migrant Tales knows the right term.

    Doesn’t make any sense so, no comment! 🙂

  55. Toni

    >Interesting site for Ms Eronen as well. Probably she bought her sleeve bandage from the same site.

    I dont’t see your point. Must I show you a link to Finnis army sleeve bandages? Or Salvation army sleeve bandages? Or to the “good hope” signs many civilizations have used for thousands of years…

  56. Reijo tai Pale

    For what it´s worth, I´d like to Quote ms.Eronen a bit:

    “Afterall, economic situation is weak, recourses of even the police being inadequate to stop every single one with dark hair and long legs, I thought to suggest a cheaper practice, one whitch would also rid our country of this human right violation in use.”

    She has dark hair, don´t know of long legs, seems the type, though, looking at facial structure. Certainly no blonde.

    Ain´t this all so much fun? And it´s all-in-the-net.

  57. Petri Kaivanto

    To answer the previous question presented to me: I’m in favour of multi-ethnic and international Finland, which my country has always been. There is already enough cultural diversity in Finland between the original ethnic groups and the newcomers and there can be more in the future, BUT I strongly oppose to the so called “multi-culturalism” when it means different rules and rights for different groups. I am not anti-Muslim, but yes, I’m anti-Islam. Nothing to do with my party. Every party has anti-Islam members, candidates and deputies.

    I equally oppose to the special rights of any religion. For example I want religion out of the schools, like it has been in France for more than 100 years. I oppose to any non-medical circumcision and halal/kosher slaughtering. That’s not specifically anti-Islam, it’s pro-non-violence.

  58. Kristina Antoniades

    Helena Eronen, a Finnish politician, seems to have no knowlwdge of the Finnish Constitution which guarantees that Finnish and Swedish are the national languages. Why would she put armbindles on Swedish speaking people? Does she plan to send them to camps? Does she want to show that she is familiar with German history of the 30’s?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Kristina and welcome to Migrant Tales. Taking into account all the talk Helena Eronen has caused in Finland and abroad, it’s pretty clear that she shouldn’t have published the column in the first place.

  59. Toni

    Kristina, you don’t seem to know why she wrote that text? You should understand that first. Helena is not putting armbindles to anyone… She just gave one (humoristic) suggestion to a (humoristic) problem police has.

  60. Arto

    @Enrique: “Taking into account all the talk Helena Eronen has caused in Finland and abroad, it’s pretty clear that she shouldn’t have published the column in the first place.”

    Eronen did not write anything irresponsible or unethical, but yes, she should have known that the media cannot be trusted a slightest bit if a person has anything to do with the PS party. The behaviour of the media is still one of the most outrageous cases I have ever seen. There are many journalists that should be deeply ashamed of how they have made “news” about the issue.

    And the PS lead seems to be a group of cowards with their suggestion to sack Eronen.

  61. Mark

    Arto

    Eronen did not write anything irresponsible or unethical.

    I disagree. I think lampooning immigrants and the immigration debate by invoking Nazi-style abuses of human rights even in the name of satire is irresponsible and unethical. When are people going to show immigrants some basic respect even? This satire did absolutely nothing to undermine the negative stereotypes of immigrants.

  62. Toni

    Mark, what makes it nazi-style text? Can you explane?
    Why isn’t it just military style text where everyone is labeled? Or normal corporation style text where all visitors get a temporary id-card. Why labeling visitors and new people is natzi-style when same style is in use all the time in many organizations without any natzi-style comments?

  63. Mark

    Arto

    Is this something [undermine negative stereotypes about foreigners] that should always be done in order to have the right to write?

    Of course not. But what is the topic here? It’s racial profiling by the police. It is the police saying, you are foreign, therefore we think there is more of a chance that you are a criminal. This subject is very much to do with negative stereotypes. And what is her proposal? Hey, cheer up, it could be fascism instead of racism!

    Wow, that makes me feel so much better!

  64. Mark

    Toni

    Mark, what makes it nazi-style text? Can you explane?
    Why labeling visitors and new people is natzi-style when same style is in use all the time in many organizations without any natzi-style comments?

    Unbelievable. That’s right Toni, strip out all the context of human rights violations, all the context of scapegoating minority groups, all the context of the last time in Europe that minorities were forced wear emblems on their clothes to distinguish them and their second-class or sub-human status. Yep, strip it all out and then have the cheek to ask me why I think it has anything to do with Nazis.

    Go on, insult my intelligence some more….

  65. Toni

    Mark: “This subject is very much to do with negative stereotypes.”

    Isn’t it a fact? The police acts based on facts not stereotypes. If acting based on facts feels false to some, then please show a better way to act?
    And I am still asking how can police find if someone is braking the law if police is not allowed to try to find? What is your solution to that problem?
    No one is trying to distinguish anyone or label anyone as second-class or sub-humans. It is normal procedure to label visitors and newbies. It is normal.

  66. Toni

    In the morning News on TV they suggested “A”-letter label to all alcoholists. And everyone thought it was a funny joke… First they told Helena made a mistake and then they made a same “mistake” and if was funny. So, some people are allowed to suggest labeling and some are not?

  67. Mark

    Toni

    Mark: “This subject is very much to do with negative stereotypes.”

    Isn’t it a fact? The police acts based on facts not stereotypes. If acting based on facts feels false to some, then please show a better way to act?
    And I am still asking how can police find if someone is braking the law if police is not allowed to try to find? What is your solution to that problem?
    No one is trying to distinguish anyone or label anyone as second-class or sub-humans.

    Police act based on facts? Hmm, I wonder what ‘facts’ you are referring to?

    Well, let’s see, can a Finn be an illegal alien? Nope. So , by defintion, if the ‘crime’ you want to investigate is illegal immigration, then you know for a fact that you don’t have to worry about the Finnish-looking ones. Focus on the foreigners. Okay, so which ones are going to be the illegal ones? Can you tell by looking? Nope. So, what do we do? Well, we’ll just have to stop as many of them as we can! Is that a violation of their civil rights? Who cares!

    First, why is illegal immigration given such a high priority that police would use their valuable time to stop random foreign-looking strangers? No other crime in Finland? Drink driving perhaps?

    Second, if you decide that foreigners are more likely to commit crime and then you focus almost all your resources on stopping and searching these foreigners, then something very interesting starts to happen to the crime statistics – foreigners start to appear more frequently, simply because the police are able to detect crime in this group and not the other group that they assume, probably against good advice, are law-abiding citizens. So, we have foreigners appearing more in crime statistics, which further justifies the police focusing even more of their of their time on stopping foreigners, etc. etc. Do you see a pattern, Toni?

    Third, treating a minority as being inclined to crime (based on statistics that are often unweighted or even biased by their own police procedures) is an act of discrimination. All citizens are supposed to be EQUAL before the law, but if certain people, simply on their ethnicity are considered more ‘suspicious’, then there is a very serious imbalance in this so-called equality before the law.

    Fourth. Racial profiling tends to raise racial tensions and further marginalise especially 2nd generation immigrant male youth. As this is precisely the demographic that is more inclined to crime anyway, it’s a further spoke in the vicious circle.

    It is normal procedure to label visitors and newbies. It is normal.

    As criminals? Yeah, right!

  68. Mark

    Toni

    In the morning News on TV they suggested “A”-letter label to all alcoholists. And everyone thought it was a funny joke… First they told Helena made a mistake and then they made a same “mistake” and if was funny. So, some people are allowed to suggest labeling and some are not?

    Everyone is allowed as individuals to stick labels on people. We all know we do it all the time, with some people more and some people less aware of what they are doing when they are doing it. Indeed, it’s easy for us all to make mistakes. However, there is a difference between an off-the-cuff remark and a worked-out news article that she has had plenty of time to consider the ramifications of.

    You are allowed to label. The point is that you also have to take the consequences. The A for alcoholics is a long-running joke in Finland, but it is nevertheless a form of stigmatisation. Is it wrong? Of course it is. Did they recognise it and correct themselves? Yes.

    Maybe Helena will correct herself and recognise that her article wasn’t helping the debate. Will she change her views on the insignificance of racial profiling? I doubt it. But then, I’m still free to criticise her and you for defending it.

  69. Toni

    Mark: “Police act based on facts? Hmm, I wonder what ‘facts’ you are referring to?”

    Ofcourse I refer to a reason why police acts. Evidence and science based methods are these facts that I mean.

    Mark: “Well, let’s see, can a Finn be an illegal alien? Nope.”

    Sure a Finn can be an illegal alien same way as an African or an Asian. But not in Finland. Or first he has to loose his Finnish status and then he has to be exiled. Then he becomes an alien. I believe it is possible. We have also Finnish fugitives here.

    Mark: “So , by defintion, if the ‘crime’ you want to investigate is illegal immigration, then you know for a fact that you don’t have to worry about the Finnish-looking ones.”

    Yes, if one is doing that investigation in Finland. In other countries a Finn is just a foreigner like any other foreigner…

    If someone has been shot it is logical to start looking from those who own a gun…

    Mark: “Well, we’ll just have to stop as many of them as we can! Is that a violation of their civil rights? Who cares!”

    They are stopping cars and testing if any driver is driving after drinking. You mean that is also wrong? Any other ways to do that police work? Sometimes they stop russian trucks because evidence shows they are more likely to break the (traffick) laws.

    Mark: “First, why is illegal immigration given such a high priority that police would use their valuable time to stop random foreign-looking strangers?”

    ??
    I wonder why it has such a low priority, I think it should be higher. We have about 4.000 illegal aliens here and no-one looks for them. As we have many fugitives here too and no-one is looking for them either. Sometimes they just get caught accidently.

    Mark: “Do you see a pattern, Toni?”

    Yes, but at the moment the police is treating every law breaker with same attention. Do you mean they should stop looking for certain law breakers? Ofcourse recourses are used according to priorities. Some may feel those priorities are not treating everyone equally. Live with it or try to change it. But understand that someone else may disagree with your plans for new priorities.

    Mark: “All citizens are supposed to be EQUAL before the law, but if certain people, simply on their ethnicity are considered more ‘suspicious’, then there is a very serious imbalance in this so-called equality before the law.”

    That is called evidence based investication or evidence based crime prevention. If the evidence tells certain group is more propable to commit crimes they should be followed more or when looking for guilty one the search starts from most logical group. It is most efficient and any other way is not wise and a waste of money. If a crime has been committed, the most logical place to look is where evidence points to start investigating. Acting against evidence based methods is not wise. Sometimes it can be reasonable but generally not.

  70. Toni

    News tell the police striked today on Bandidos club house in Tuusula. You feel that is wrong police work to harass motorcycle clubs? Mark, are you going to tell police should stop doing that kind of stuff?

  71. eyeopener

    “I dont’t see your point. Must I show you a link to Finnis army sleeve bandages? Or Salvation army sleeve bandages? Or to the “good hope” signs many civilizations have used for thousands of years”

    No Toni you don’t need because I found that already before this one. But this link shows clearly that The Edelweiss was ALSO attached to Waffen-SS units and not -as was suggested- to the Wehrmacht alone. This argument was meant to downplay the seriousness of “sleeving”. “Sleeving” in the Army serves totally different issues.

    Ms Eronen’s suggestions was to make differences between people. For identification etc. Especially negative ones. Detection of possible wrongdoers.

    Is the Finnish police so ill-trained that they can’t make a difference?? I have some excellent courses for that purpose. No “sleeving” needed and far more better socially. But that’s what you are not looking for.

    Really simple. But what can you do with “blind eyes”??

  72. eyeopener

    Continu.
    Hi Tony.

    Foreigners are the same as Bandidos, he??

    Go get an ice-cream on the corner and after that you might need to go to class again to have some serious education. Especially on critical perception building. Maybe a bridge too far for you. But dear Toni: never tried always stupid. Right??

  73. Mark

    Toni

    Sure a Finn can be an illegal alien same way as an African or an Asian. But not in Finland.

    Wow…thanks for that: I’d never have figured that out by myself!

    They are stopping cars and testing if any driver is driving after drinking. You mean that is also wrong?

    Nope. Drink driving is after all a crime committed by drivers and not walkers.

    Any other ways to do that police work?

    Yes, there is. You can start with border checks and then routine checks of those that for other reasons come to the attention of the police. But random checks of immigrants for no other reason than they are ‘foreign-looking’ is degrading and unjustifiable. Does Finland have a problem with illegal immigration? Harrdly

    Compare it to drink driving, where 1 in 5 women and 1 in 3 men have admitted in surveys in Finland to driving while drunk! Do you think you can offer anything like this statistic for stopping immigrants? However, imagine that the police only stopped women on these roadside checks for alcohol. How would you feel about that? Sounds stupid, doesn’t it! Well, that’s the equivelant here. Immigrants stopped in the street or their cars are no more likely to be a criminal than another Finn. And even if they were, it wouldn’t justify it.

    Yes, but at the moment the police is treating every law breaker with same attention. Do you mean they should stop looking for certain law breakers? Ofcourse recourses are used according to priorities. Some may feel those priorities are not treating everyone equally.

    They are not treating people equally. And how on earth does ‘treating every law breaker with the same attention’ somehow invalidate the very important point of how racial profiling leads to higher arrest rates and crime rates for immigrants, which is used to further justify increased profiling! It’s a nonsense. It’s like saying, only immigrants commit crime because that’s the only criminal we pay attention to.

    That is called evidence based investication or evidence based crime prevention. If the evidence tells certain group is more propable to commit crimes they should be followed more or when looking for guilty one the search starts from most logical group.

    I see you paid absolutely no attention whatsoever to my main argument against racial profiling. IN FACT, you actually buy into the hocus pocus racial profiling justification wholesale, that statistics tell us who the criminals are, so we go after them, and then surprise surprise, those criminals are being even more criminal the next year. Can you believe it? Ugh….NO!

    A ten-year-old at school could probably explain to you Toni why this is wrong, why it creates self-fulfilling prophecies about ‘immigrant crime’ wrong.

    If you really don’t believe, why don’t you just tell the police to only stop red-headed drivers and test them for drink driving. I guarantee you that in a years time, you will be able to tell the world the shocking news – 100% of drunk drivers are red-heads, which completely justifies the police policy of only stopping red heads.

    Toni you show an absolutely shocking ability to create, chew on and swallow a logical inconsistency with absolutely no self-awareness whatsoever!!!!!!

    News tell the police striked today on Bandidos club house in Tuusula. You feel that is wrong police work to harass motorcycle clubs? Mark, are you going to tell police should stop doing that kind of stuff?

    Oh don’t be crass! How on earth is raiding a Bandidos club on even the same planet as randomly stopping foreign immigrants to check their papers? Are you really trying to tell me that the only choice in town is that police get to use racial profiling to investigate illegal immigration vs. no police investigation whatsoever. What you been smoking?

  74. Mark

    Toni

    Hey, here’s one for you.

    The [Vali-Suomen] survey also showed some 40 per cent of supporters of the True Finns party had been drunk at the wheel compared to a figure of 18 per cent for supporters of the Greens and the Left parties.

    Now we have this evidence, it’s quite clear that True Finns supporters should wear identifying armbands on their sleeves and that they should be stopped always when they are seen in traffic by the police and breathalised!

    Forgive my satire…..it’s in the air for some reason!

  75. Toni

    I wonder if you believe everyone drinking Fanta is a Nazi today?

    Fanta originated in Germany by Nazis when it became illegal to import Coca-Cola into Nazi Germany during World War II.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanta

    So, can people today drink Fanta without you labeling them Nazis? Drinking Fanta is much bigger symbol of supporting Nazism than talking about sleeve labels… Drinking Fanta clearly means supporting Nazism.

    • Migrant Tales

      –So, can people today drink Fanta without you labeling them Nazis?

      Folks, this is how you can divert a discussion into another direction. Are you serious, Toni?

  76. Mark

    Toni

    So, can people today drink Fanta without you labeling them Nazis? Drinking Fanta is much bigger symbol of supporting Nazism than talking about sleeve labels… Drinking Fanta clearly means supporting Nazism.

    Moronic argument. Let’s see now, which is more likely to link to Nazism:

    Drinking Fanta

    or

    Putting sleeves on immigrants to mark them out as immigrants for police checks

    Answers on a postcard please.

    Toni, you are making a total fool of yourself.

  77. Toni

    Mark: “Now we have this evidence, it’s quite clear that True Finns supporters should wear armbands on their sleeves and that they should be stopped always when they are seen in traffic!!!!! Forgive my satire…..”

    But I agree. I see no harm on that. If evidence tells TF supporters are more likely to drive when drunk then police should priorizise them to the most probable ones to stop. Like they do with russian trucks, some motorcycle clubs, people with criminal record, etc.

    But you try to explane that when all police work is focused on stopping True Finns supporters then of course data shows 100% crimes are made by them. But that is not science based evidence. Analysis is not based on data what police has done… that is not scientific way.

  78. Toni

    Sorry, I am not a professional discussionist.. In my eyes suggesting sleeve labels has nothing to do with Nazis like drinking Fanta is not. It is just a funny way to help police do their work.

  79. Mark

    Toni

    In my eyes suggesting sleeve labels has nothing to do with Nazis like drinking Fanta is not. It is just a funny way to help police do their work.

    Toni, you are being obtuse. No-one is suggesting that ‘sleeve labels’ automatically have anything to do with Nazis. However, let’s add a few other ingredients here, and please, pay attention this time:

    – exclusive to an immigrant minority
    – policy checks on the basis of this sleeve label
    – a suggestion offered by a PS employee

    My guess is that Helena would have no problem in admitting that her ‘satire’ was supposed to be a repost to the Nazi jibes made against certain party members. So why on earth are you being so obtuse? You really really really cannot fathom this? If you can’t, then fine, I’m not wasting any more precious time ‘discussing’ with you Toni. I bid you good day!

  80. Toni

    Mark: “My guess is that you haven’t a clue what this means.”

    Well, you let me understand that you think it was something it certainly is not.

  81. Toni

    Mark: “No-one is suggesting that ‘sleeve labels’ automatically have anything to do with Nazis”

    I disagree. Biggest “news” was that Helena’s text was labeled referring to nazism. That is why they introduced in the same nes how Nazis used labeling. So my opinion is that you are wrong saying no-one suggested that.

    And here you have texts like this:
    Matt: “Nazism and fasism is coming back to Finland. Eronen’s block is one example.”
    And then Migrant Tales agreed.
    Later he wrote about this kind of flirting with Nazism.

    Actually we now have less Nazism than some years before… and less racism too.

  82. Reijo tai Pale

    One thing is for sure: Fascism IS coming back everywhere. What the kids born into the internet era do not understand, is a world that has no internet. There used to be a country behind our eastern border, where dissident and/or controvercial voices were sent to Siberian death camps. Human nature is prone to such behaviour, it allways has & allways will be.

    I think it is an extremely good thing, that she wrote that text and created controversy. It goes to show how easy it is to take a few words and make one´s case based on however you INTERPRET them, especially, when you don´t even know the full text, or it´s meaning.

    You might ask WHY does the media like to twist things and blow them out of porportion? And should one really be under such control?

    What I´m getting at with this babble is, that mostly things exist inside your head only, and no one needs to do any brainwash. You do it yourself, by succumbing to every bit of pushed reality in today´s world. You can pick your reality, of cource, be it a reputedly racist writing here, and a call for a ban on racist writing there.

    In communist Russia, people came up with a completely new platform, one whitch should have been open and prosperous to all. It was nothing but an idea. However people were unable to handle that idea, and society regressed to fascism. It happened very easy, it is so very easy to label dissonant voices as dangerous and harmful. Harmful to whom? To the existing consensus, of cource. There are a lot of people in the establishment, who make huge amounts of money by tapping into people´s tendency to eat up every bit of propaganda, and use that to get themselves, or their friends to power.

    In USA, there´s only two parties TODAY, and the whole of that country has brainwashed itself to believe they actually had a choise. It´s all just warmongering, scaring the living daylight out of people by using their fears, so they can be sent to fight the war on terror. I´m talking about a whole nation under a spell. This fear is used to make people buy all sorts of crap for their protection, we all know about their huge industry, when it comes to protecting your ass. Even in the land of supposed utter equality, the land of Puff the magic dragon and all that, Sweden, the COPS might get enthralled by fearmongering (I see terrorists everywhere!) and it´s a fact. Eronen´s writing serves it´s purpose well, in making you think, and I mean you, with the nightstick.

    So, now you are faced with yet another completely new platform, one that should be open and prosperous to all. It is nothing but an idea. So how will you use it? Exaggerate, moralize, and perhaps resort to fearmongering?

  83. Farang

    Mark:

    “- a suggestion offered by a PS employee”

    What the hell has this got to do with anything? You actually claim that what person says or write have different meaning based on if she is a PS employee or not?

    What you are doing is exactly same what racists are doing. Racists claim that a person is something just based on ones ethnic background or race. You are making claims about person based on what her political background is.

    You are so double standarded that it makes me sick.

    People like you are worse than the worst racists. And I hate racists, so imaging what I think about you.

    Mark, what is you contribution to Finnish society?

  84. Reijo tai Pale

    “What the hell has this got to do with anything? You actually claim that what person says or write have different meaning based on if she is a PS employee or not?”

    This is a good question. PS is, to my wiew, mainly a voice of protest, and the people voted just to get a certain message through. This can, however develope into something, and I really hope it will. Something is obviously wrong in today´s politics all over the world. I´m glad that people don´t feel a need to start riots just yet, but the more the asshole politicians keep neglecting needs of their own people, mainly the young, the more wealth they keep on stuffing into the pockets of the rich, the more they keep lying, the nearer we get to the point of some civil unrest. It´s nothing like Greece or Spain, though. Finnish stoicism is really a legend of it´s own, and people do prefer the duck pond stay calm.

    Politics is nothing but lying, betraying your own, and backstabbing.

    These idiots are of cource afraid, that our pretty little poscard cenery front gets tainted a bit, and god help us, if S&P and Fitch downgrades our credit rating.

    And it actually IS true, it seems that in today´s world a fart up here CAN have some unexpected effects.

    People are afraid, everywhere around the globe there´s this fear. A “new” voice is of cource something terrible, I mean, it would be too much for some people. We have traditionally had three big parties, Coalition (right wing), Center party (only in name) and The Social Democrats (no idea where they are).

    So by overreacting on every single fart, these assholes just make thing worse. Why shoot yourself in the foot?

  85. Mark

    Farang

    What the hell has this got to do with anything? You actually claim that what person says or write have different meaning based on if she is a PS employee or not?

    Yep, that’s pretty much it…welcome to the world, Farang, where HAVE you been?

    She is an employee of an elected official. Not merely his maid or his dentist, but his personal assistant. Yep, it matters what she writes, as it reflects on her boss. In this case, it reflects her boss probably a little bit too well….and that’s why she’s clearly a liability and why the party were rightly trying to get shut of her. Take it up with them Farang if it really bothers you that much.

    What you are doing is exactly same what racists are doing. Racists claim that a person is something just based on ones ethnic background or race. You are making claims about person based on what her political background is.

    Does it hurt? I mean, to bend your brain like that? What was that, a backflip, half-twist, inside out forward half-turn, your heads somewhere up your arse?

    How on earth did you get from a comment about the responsibilities of a political appointee to Mark being a racist? The mind boggles!

    People like you are worse than the worst racists. And I hate racists, so imaging what I think about you.

    I love you Farang, you are me bestest ever mate! Cuddles?

    Mark, what is you contribution to Finnish society?

    Let’s see now, these are examples of the kinds of emails I receive on a daily basis from my Finnish clients!

    Really, Mark, you have done the best. You have helped me so much! Thanks a lot to you!!!Päivi

    Excellent work! Thank you very much. Jenni

    You deserve a VERY BIG THANK you for your contribution to my work. Esa

    You could say my job is to help showcase Finnish talent, skills and know-how on the international stage. I’d say I do a good job and that it contributes very directly to Finland’s good international reputation.

    So, what do YOU contribute, my bestest mate?

  86. Mark

    Reijo ja Pale

    Politics is nothing but lying, betraying your own, and backstabbing.

    If you knew even a smidgeon of real political work you would not say this. Politics is a bloody difficult job – constantly trying to see where best to advance and whose interests must be prioritised. It’s a thankless task, as your stupid comment well illustrates.

    But, hey, don’t bother to educate yourself, PS would love to have your vote even if it is based on ignorance. Hey, they’ll even feed you some more hysterical grievance to get you worked up!!!

    • Migrant Tales

      Here is a real good analysis of the far-right threat in Finland and Timo Soini’s role:

      Kansanedustaja James Hirvisaaren (ps) avustajan Helena Erosen tapauksessa ei ole kysymys toimittajien väärinymmärryksestä, tyylikeinojen hallitsemattomuuden ruotimisesta eikä siitä, oliko vitsi tai siitä tehty lehtijuttu hyvä vai huono.

      Erosen kannanotossa kyse ei ollut satiirista vaan natsiperformanssista, jossa huumorin varjolla tuotiin oikeat mielipiteet esille muka vitsin varjolla. Eronen myönsi radiossa pointikseen sen, että poliisin pitäisi pystyä erottamaan rikolliset selkeämmin. Natsiperformanssin ydin on ajatusleikki, jossa oma aate puetaan vitsiksi, ja esitetään marttyyriä, kun jäädään tarkoituksella kiinni oman ideologisen sanomansa levittämisestä. Erilaiset fasististen, natsihenkisten ja rasististen “vitsien” järjestelmällinen levittely ei ole uutta. Ne on tarkoitettu ensisijaisesti omalle sisäpiirille, vaikka niitä netissä julkaistaankin.

      Moni äänestäjä ei ole kuitenkaan tästä tiennyt. Siksi on perusteltua tehdä uutisia, jotka kertovat, kuinka paljon luultua enemmän valtaa Suomen Sisulla on perussuomalaisissa. Kysymys tässä jupakassa on siitä, että Erosta ei eroteta, vaikka eduskuntaryhmä niin on vaatinut, mikä taas kertoo paljon äärioikeiston vallasta puolueen sisällä.

      Kotkalainen kunnallispoliitikko Freddy van Wonterghem saa sanoa olevansa iloinen muslimitytön kuolemasta, koska tämä ei siten ainakaan pääse synnyttämään lisää muslimeja. Suomensisulaisen kansanedustajan Juho Eerolan avustaja Ulla Pyysalo pysyy myös tehtävässään, vaikka haki natsijärjestön jäseneksi, koska “ei tajunnut sen olevan natsihenkinen”. Tuomas Okkonen haki samaiseen järjestöön, “koska oli kännissä”. Kansanedustajat Jussi Halla-aho ja James Hirvisaari ovat saaneet jopa tuomion rikoksesta, mutta pysyvät silti vallassa.

      Viranomaiset ovat todenneet Suomen Sisun fasistiseksi järjestöksi, jonka rasistisia jäseniä on suomalaisen vallan korkeimmalla huipulla. Timo Soini perussuomalaisten puheenjohtajana jää jytkyn lisäksi historiaan miehenä, joka päästi aggressiivisen äärioikeiston eduskuntaan. Nyt näyttää siltä, että Soini ei enää pysty kontrolloimaan alaistensa tekemisiä, millä on arvaamattomat seuraukset.

      Here is the link: http://www.facebook.com/notes/tuomas-muraja/soini-avasi-äärioikeistolle-oven-eduskuntaan/10150668101992584

  87. Reijo tai Pale

    Mark:

    Now that´s the way my friend. It really is a thankless task to try and get it through, that we are all being manipulated by fear. We are presented with a theater play, some sort of sick joke, a front of democracy, and if you are not in that game looking after your interest, you will be slaughtered.

    Can you accept a notion, that it´s not just about PS, SD, KOK, or Finland?

    Take a look around, you see it everywhere: The rich get richer, and the poor even get their pensions stolen. Then you have some idiots flying around, from one summit to the next, making decicions that all but guarantee the breaking of EMU, all the time trying to come up with another lie on top of the old lie. Yeah, way to go! Then you have these f*ckheads moralizing you and talking about bearing responsibility, saying you must give more, let´s attack Iran, let´s make war, let´s all be poor, yeehaw!

    Well, you got me worked up!

    Please do explain, do you actually regard the PS and the world as an US and THEM – cenario, your brain is most interesting.

    • Migrant Tales

      Reijo tai Pale, we can understand your frustration but tell us what the solution is. Why do you think the PS can throw a lifesaver to Finland?

  88. Reijo tai Pale

    “Reijo tai Pale, we can understand your frustration but tell us what the solution is. Why do you think the PS can throw a lifesaver to Finland?”

    I do not suggest they can, and I´m cincerely frustrated about some useless louts in their ranks too. Some of their wiews are so old, and I just can´t get it, why people voted clowns like Veltto Virtanen or a single agenda – anti-Islam yahoo like Halla-pallo.

    There is no lifesaver, not anymore. We (the west) should have bit the bullet years ago. The politicians have made a real mess in allowing this cleptocracy to rule. All we can do is sort of sail along, and brace for the tsunami.

    My interest in this discussion is to contemplate the ease, with whitch people get labelled, and I have discussed this in real life with a lot af people too. Some seem to have a serious problem, you for example, assumed straight on, that I´d accept every fart coming from the PS, and regarded them as lifesavers, did you not?

  89. Mark

    Reijo

    The rich get richer, and the poor even get their pensions stolen. Then you have some idiots flying around, from one summit to the next, making decicions that all but guarantee the breaking of EMU, all the time trying to come up with another lie on top of the old lie. Yeah, way to go! Then you have these f*ckheads moralizing you and talking about bearing responsibility, saying you must give more, let´s attack Iran, let´s make war, let´s all be poor, yeehaw!

    I have a lot of sympathy for your grievance, and it is true that the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer over the last 15 or 20 years. But it really isn’t easy to change that trend. It’s not simply about getting the politicians to pass the right legislation. Globalisation means that politicians have to create a ‘lush soil’ for investment, and that typically means low taxation and subsidies for big business. The hope is for some ‘trickle-down economics’ to ultimately bring net benefits and increased GDP.

    Please do explain, do you actually regard the PS and the world as an US and THEM – cenario, your brain is most interesting.

    I’m not sure about your question here. In general, I don’t really subscribe to any ‘us and them’ narratives. I really do see us all in the same thing together, regardless of if I disagree or do not share the same convictions or thoughts as someone else. Likewise, disagreement is fairly normal, even among good friends. I’m not against it.

  90. Reijo tai Pale

    Mark:

    Now that´s talking about the REAL issue, the one that can lead to unpleasant consequences. There you go, I´m fearmongering now. Right now the trend seems to be austerity, austerity, and yet more austerity.

    I just can´t see Europe emerging like a Phoenix-birdie from this mindless catch-22.

    Huuever, the supposed rise of far-right ideology will be the least of our worries, it just doesn´t fly anymore. One of the reasons we are in this mess, is the FEAR, that if the system was let to reboot, the germans would of cource turn into nazis overnight or something…

  91. Reijo tai Pale

    Listen here:

    When you smell the air, do you not find the rancid odor of neo-moralism in the air?

    Do you not pick signs across the political spectrum, when you connect the dots, you can see something even worse developing than a couple of loud doomsday-sayers and some real racist idiots?

    If this attitude is allowed to develope freely, the whole of western World will shoot itself in the head.

    A sign:

    -Restrictions on alcohol, moralization, pushing to make all bars & nightclubs shut their doors earlier. (whitch is economically just about as stupid as you can get)

    A sign:

    -Pushing to dilute beer.

    A sign:

    -Pushing a drunken driver law 0-limit.

    -Hiding tobacco, as in forcing a law whitch makes absolutely no sense, and all the apes press “YES” in parliament.

    -Alcometers to each car, GPS – surveillance also, SOPA, PIPA, ACTA, you name it, It´s out there. No one seems to stop and think too much about the implications of such things…Naturally not the sort of stuff to make big headlines every day.

    Of cource, the thing about racism and the rise of the far-right is very simple: One can just begin to search for whatever brain fart, and draw big headlines. It is veeery easy. And fun, I must admit. And to think that a person like Sarah Palin almost got there, if thats not scary, what is?

  92. Toni

    Today Finland has less racism than ever before! This is the best country for everyone to feel equal changes to have a good and safe life. I don’t understand why media and some people feel the need to claim so much lies how bad country Finland is. What is the reason for that??

    • Mark

      Today Finland has less racism than ever before! This is the best country for everyone to feel equal changes to have a good and safe life. I don’t understand why media and some people feel the need to claim so much lies how bad country Finland is. What is the reason for that??

      Well, perhaps it has something to do with the surge of public support for a far right anti-immigration party whose members regularly promote hate speech.

  93. I am

    Today Finland has less racism than ever before! This is the best country for everyone to feel equal changes to have a good and safe life. I don’t understand why media and some people feel the need to claim so much lies how bad country Finland is. What is the reason for that?

    Hi Toni,

    Best of what? Racist???
    If u count ur some people , u see its not best country .
    No equal, no doubt
    Safe life???? ha ha ha ha
    The fact is not lie
    Many reasons

    Have great day Toni

  94. Toni

    >If u count ur some people , u see its not best country .

    What kind of people can find a better and more safe country and from where? Finland is the most safe country for blondes, red-heads, brunettes, foreigners, gays, lesbians, Africans, Muslims, Asians, criminals, etc. Did I forget some group?
    Just ask them what they think…

  95. I am

    Toni, thats ur idea, this is what u r thinking, but for me Finland was not a safe country, are u saying oh am very well when u have pain???
    U need attention to my words if u believe that am exist in ur society.
    Have u never talked seriously with a foreigner like me face to face??? U interest? U r not, as u like, u r free but we r all important creatures.
    Do u know whats mean of losing time? I lost it here because racist has games, different rolers and when u r stranger, u cant say oh sorry i dont want playing games with u, because u r under control., Rcist never debate with u racist will say to u yes or no, for racist there are only two colours, white or black so racist cant figure out about a problem.
    I am not thinking about, it is not about thinking but about hard stuff experiences, hard moments, hours, days, weeks, years here in Finland.

  96. Toni

    >Toni, thats ur idea, this is what u r thinking, but for me Finland was not a safe country, are u saying oh am very well when u have pain???

    I was hoping you would answer my question first… And I don’t understand your question. I am not saying…
    So, please, can you answer to my question first????

    >U need attention to my words if u believe that am exist in ur society.

    I don’t understand. Sure you exist if you can write.

    >Have u never talked seriously with a foreigner like me face to face???

    Foreigner like you? I don’t know what kind of a foreigner you are if you don’t tell me. So I can’t answer. Have you ever talked with a man like me? I can answer: You haven’t.

    We have many cool foreigners in our company and just last Saturday we had a sports day and a sauna evening. I heard many experiences from foreigners there. And many other sauna evenings before that. They are from Estonia, Romania, GB, USA, Columbia, Bolivia, South Africa, China, Russia, India, Indonesia and France that I now remember. And I know some people from Japan, Kamerun, Spain,…

    >U interest? U r not, as u like, u r free but we r all important creatures.

    Everyone is. Rest of your msg I don’t understand..

    Sure we have foreigners who have felt some racism here. We have many foreigners who have experienced racism from other foreigners. And I have met racism from foreigners. Everyone have felt it here!! My first contact to racism was about at age 13 when one romani guy gave me a “snow wash” saying my face was too white and snow is what my face was asking for… after that I have experienced racism few times but I am trying to avoid it by not walking into a trouble..

    But my point was that Finland is still least racistic because all other countries have more racism. I am not saying we don’t have racism. And I am saying some of our racisim is done by foreigners against other foreigners, like summer 2010 in Linnanmäki.

  97. I am

    Oh dont give up Toni,
    Yeah for first please here, ur answer i wish u like it.
    What kind of people can find a better and more safe country and from where?
    My idea all people deserve a safe country, a peaceful life
    From where? all around the world, we r living on one planet
    What kind of people? whats ur mean exactly? we r one, but kinds for me means male, female, age , language , nationality , it makes us different, thats okay and makes a colourful life on the earth.
    And if my answer is not perfect for u , u can answer it by yours.
    My kind, what kind of foreigner am i? Brave one thats me, who can see racist very well and is sensitive enough to smell it, Toni racist has different parts and acts.
    U dont understand my rest of message? How its come???
    U have right to dont understand it , because that was my time, my life, my years and not yours
    That was me under control and not u
    That was me who suffered alot and not u

    its about losing time, time is worthy, very worthy u have this moment , now and present is the only thing that u have it, if u lose it u cant go back , and live again no but past is finish, ur time in the past finished.
    Racist in Finland wasted my time, my golden times.

    some of our racisim is done by foreigners against other foreigners, sure its fact too.

    Finland is still least racistic< How many people r living in Finland,?Its small country dont forget that Toni.
    My point is coming from my hard experience
    Good night to u and MT

  98. Toni

    >Oh dont give up Toni,

    Why you think I would give up?

    >Yeah for first please here, ur answer i wish u like it.

    You wish I like what??

    >What kind of people can find a better and more safe country and from where?
    >My idea all people deserve a safe country, a peaceful life
    >From where? all around the world, we r living on one planet

    So why you want to say bad words to a country that offers you all the best?
    Why don’t you aim your words to those countries where things are much worse than here???

    >What kind of people? whats ur mean exactly?

    I don’t know. Those were your words..

    >we r one, but kinds for me means male, female, age , language , nationality , it makes us different, thats okay and makes a colourful life on the earth.

    Yes. What is your problem? We are not one.

    >And if my answer is not perfect for u , u can answer it by yours.

    No, you didn’t answer at all.
    Please answer me what country is better for you than Finland and why?

    >My kind, what kind of foreigner am i?

    I don’t know. You wrote: “a foreigner like me face to face”

    So, What kind of a foreigner you mean you are? You didn’t tell.

    >Brave one thats me, who can see racist very well and is sensitive enough to smell it, Toni racist has different parts and acts.

    Also the socialists have many different parts and acts. Also foreigners are terrosists. They even burn police stations and kill people to get what they believe they want. Who do you like most?

    >U dont understand my rest of message? How its come???

    You write difficult words and sentences like: “How its come”. What does that mean?
    That is not any language…

    >U have right to dont understand it , because that was my time, my life, my years and not yours

    You can’t blame me not understanding you if you don’t write a language I understand. Please, use english…

    >Some of our racisim is done by foreigners against other foreigners, sure its fact too.

    Yes. So, what kind of racism you have experienced in Finland.

    >Finland is still least racisticMy point is coming from my hard experience
    Good night to u and MT

    And where is your experience coming from? Not from Finland??

  99. I am

    Toni,
    Why are u angry at me?
    Now in this moment we cant talk more, because u dont like my words and u think u r better than me, U say we r not ONE, but i can also explain u more, about this word , WE R ONE.
    So please be relax Toni, we r adults, u dont need insult me, English is not my mother language and so thats not a crime if my English is not perfect, but why when i writing in English to my friends in English they understand what am talking about???
    U Toni dont want accept me, u know why???? u think u r better than me, NO ONE is perfect, Except GOD.
    I said about the fact, U have not my experience and so offcourse u cant taste what is mean of my pain and suffer that i got here in Finland, U cant close my mouth this is my right, my right is coming from freedom of speech, and thats what MT gave it to me in this page, and so thanks to MT, also u have ur own freedom of speech here on MT and u see u can talk easily to me as u want.
    U know whats mean of we r ONE? Its not mean that am begging u ur kindness or ur race, I nooo, It is means we all have human race,so it is not mean that u looks like me, or u r my twin, or i wish that to be like u, i just want to be me, i love me, myself.

    Toni U said I was hoping you would answer my question first…….then i said dont give up,i mean hope is good thing dont give up, we can talk i understood.
    Toni u say
    So why you want to say bad words to a country that offers you all the best?
    And i say, thats ur idea, u dont know what happened to me here, i got pain from racist in here so whats bad words now??? Racist ?Pain? suffer?
    Again how u explain ur pain when u have pain Toni? Do u say i have no pain when u have headache or else, so i cant say oh i have a great life here when i have pain.
    Toni u said Yes. What is your problem? We are not one.
    It is not about problem, i have no problem with u i have never met u in person, i dont know u at all, it is difficult to understand people with their words, for me u r dear and ur idea cant hurts me.
    U toni said
    Please answer me what country is better for you than Finland and why?
    U want name of a country Toni ? I say there is racist here in Finland and u ask me what country is better for u???? and why?????
    We r not talking about this matter, we r talking about racist and that Finland is not a sfae country for me, am living in Finland why should i talk about other countries and…
    This is ur question, so u please answer it if u want.
    I could not find a place here in Finland that works for humanity.

    Toni u said Who do you like most?
    I like a peaceful society for all, i like and wish peace for all of us, i like best for me U and all,
    I like union between all of us a union with peace and mercy, I like and wish best for Finland, i care about Finland, i love Finland, Racist people r some people walking in their negative way Racists r not only Finns, i said that before in one of my comments, Immigrants, foreigner but Finland is a country , a land, a creature of GOD so i love it, i love all, Finns, foreigners, Immigrants and all, thats me.
    I like when i say hi to u u send me back a hi thats for free and bliss.
    How its come??? he he, i mean how it is possible, i say i lost my time here and u say i dont understand ur message.
    Toni
    >U dont understand my rest of message? How its come???

    You write difficult words and sentences like: “How its come”. What does that mean?
    That is not any language…

    >U have right to dont understand it , because that was my time, my life, my years and not yours

    You can’t blame me not understanding you if you don’t write a language I understand. Please, use english…
    Do u trying to say me, that am not a first class person like u Toni?
    U have no idea that who am i, are u?
    Hugs brother Toni , i just use my freedom of speech and its my right .

    I am not blaming u, i am saying u have right to dont understand it, is it blame Toni???
    Also i said because that was my time , my life , my years and not yours.
    Thats why best is face to face, when people talk like that they can understand eachother better.

    But losing time is a very very easy word i wish u understanding me better Toni.
    Toni u said
    Some of our racisim is done by foreigners against other foreigners, sure its fact too.

    Yes. So, what kind of racism you have experienced in Finland?
    I experienced both, foreigners against foreigners and racists in here, Rcaist Finns( attention its not mean u Toni or nice Finns, not means nice foreigners, it mean Racist people)
    Toni u said
    >Finland is still least racistic ……. Toni tahts what u said and i said My point is coming from my hard experience
    Good night to u and MT

    And where is your experience coming from? Not from Finland?
    I am talking about my experience in Finland, am living here. For sure Good night to u and MT is a great word its not aproblem.

    Toni we were talking enough, u dont accept me so i dont want talk more than this., i have respect for u but for myself too.

    Have a great day Toni and MT

  100. Toni

    >Toni,
    >Why are u angry at me?

    Why do you think and believe I am angry?

    >Now in this moment we cant talk more, because u dont like my words

    I like them, I just don’t understand everything.

    > and u think u r better than me,

    Now you are trying to provoke me.

    > U say we r not ONE, but i can also explain u more, about this word , WE R ONE.

    You can believe we are one but it doesn’t make it the truth. You can believe what you want.

    >U Toni dont want accept me, u know why????

    Why do you believe I don’t accept you? I don’t know you. You don’t tell about who or what kind of a human you are. You don’t answer to my questions.

    >u think u r better than me, NO ONE is perfect, Except GOD.

    I am not going to continue reading when you r only insulting me…
    God is not perfect either. Or which God you mean? There are so many of them… I think Zeus is allmost perfect.

    >my pain and suffer that i got here in Finland,

    Why do you suffer and why did you come here?

    >U cant close my mouth this is my right, my right is coming from freedom of speech,

    I am not trying to close your mouth. I am asking questions but you just don’t want to answer…

    >u dont know what happened to me here, i got pain from racist in here so whats bad words now??? Racist ?Pain? suffer?

    Everyone has experienced racism. How it hurt you?

    >Again how u explain ur pain when u have pain Toni?

    Pain is pain. Sometimes I feel sad when someone behaves racistic against me. But I understand their need to be racistic.

    >I say there is racist here in Finland

    I agree. We have racists here like every other country have.
    Our racists are mainly foreigners who come here acting racistic. I don’t like that.

    >I could not find a place here in Finland that works for humanity.

    Many organisations work for humanity.

    >Do u trying to say me, that am not a first class person like u Toni?

    I am not a first class person myself… you can be if you want.

    >Yes. So, what kind of racism you have experienced in Finland?

    I have heard some racistic coments. I have been hit, kicked and my property has been ruined and stolen..

  101. I am

    good faternoon Toni,
    Many organisations work for humanity???? NO NO NO, and OOOOOPS please dont feel alergy about my wordsToni, they are supporters of racist because they dont listen to u, they dont work for ur right, they dont care about u,thats the fact that is coming from my hard experience that i have here in Finland.
    They just looks like that, i did knock alot for my human rights, doors are close here if u have complaints about racist.
    Nothing can change us if we want to be strong and stay in peace way., if we want to think best, if we want grow and if we want to be human
    I am so sorry Toni for racist did hurt u, i understand it , racist is a hunter with a mask on face.
    For me talking about my experience is hard i dont want cry again and again., i cant stop my tears.
    I wish from my deep deep heart a happy life for u Toni, safe life with a rainbow of peace
    Smile

  102. Toni

    >good faternoon Toni,
    >Many organisations work for humanity???? NO NO NO

    Yes, yes.

    >They just looks like that, i did knock alot for my human rights, doors are close here if u have complaints about racist.

    Doors are closed many times when someone complains you as a racist. Even if you are not.

    >Nothing can change us if we want to be strong and stay in peace way., if we want to think best, if we want grow and if we want to be human

    Unfortunately there are lot of people wanting to hurt others. I don’t want them here.

    >I am so sorry Toni for racist did hurt u, i understand it , racist is a hunter with a mask on face.

    Racist is also someone who uses others and their money. There are a lot of them here who are just trying to abuse us.

    • Mark

      Toni

      What kind of article is that? This was halfway down, written in response to one Finnish woman’s conversion to Islam and saying that she used to just hang around in bars before that:

      Evil Finns. Yeah, right Marika, the Finns, (your former countrymen) are great in building a real first class state with a robust market economy, but they’re entirely too evil to run it, so lets fill it all up with your Muslim pals and then everything will go smoothly. One of the things of course, that Muslim Marika will want Finland to divest itself from, is the sauna culture. Nudity between family members is against the moon-god, so all those bad wood burning and electric saunas will have to be done away with. And since Islam is such a green and environmental friendly ideology, saving the world from the polluting CO2 gasses coming from wood burning saunas is just icing on the cake!

      Talk about distorting someone’s views!

      This isn’t an article, it’s a rant.

  103. I am

    Toni how r u today, hi
    Racist is also someone who uses others and their money. There are a lot of them here who are just trying to abuse us

    Thats scam and completely wrong.

    Finland, a paradise for foreigners
    It depends to what is paradise mean for us, for some people money means paradise, being rich have a big house far of city, sauna, no neighbour around. For some to abuse others, for some education, for some being free, for some freedom of speech, for some helath and happiness, for some work and a normal life, for some being lazy , for some sleeping and…,…

    It could be for me if i had my family with me here.
    Have good day u and MT

    • Mark

      Hi Toni

      Well, the link is not a translation, but a different story. But thanks anyway for the links. Nice to see that people are having good experiences in Finland too. It is also good that the stance taken against hate speech helps to give Finland a good reputation abroad and among Muslims. Of course, it’s certainly not the whole picture, but it’s an important part of it.

  104. Toni

    Mark: “Nice to see that people are having good experiences in Finland too.”

    There have been many foreigners in media telling how safe and wonderful place Finland is. They are amazed how safe and without racism Finland is. We even offer free health care for illegal immigrants instead of throwing them out from Finland.

    If you look for good experiences come to Finland.

    Those, who speak bad words about Finland, are usually not foreigners but “kukkahattutätejä” who don’t know what they are talking about…

    • Mark

      Toni

      Don’t be naive in thinking that one person’s experience is the same as another. If you come to Finland with a trade, employed by a company, and at least with English as a second language, then I think Finns treat you reasonably well, though they can get REALLY STUCK on the fact that you are a foreigner to the extent that it tends to dominate conversations.

      This isn’t racism in itself, but it just shows how even polite conversation can be very ethnocentric to the point where the effect is to ‘other’ you. When you get passed talking about national stereotypes and just get down to talking about life, that is when Finns finally relax.

      In the international beauty stakes, I think many Finns get caught up in being worried about not being that well-known and therefore worried about their ‘international status’. Foreigners therefore become an opportunity to polish the reputation of Finns.

      When foreigners don’t want to play that game (after ten years of being here), then some Finns are surprised that you don’t want to talk about it constantly. For them, it might be the topic of one conversation in a thousand. For foreigners, it’s probably one conversation in 20!!!

      But really, there are as many experiences of Finland as there are immigrants. It’s good to remember that.

  105. Toni

    >Toni: There have been many foreigners in media telling how safe and wonderful place Finland is.
    >Mark: Don’t be naive in thinking that one person’s experience is the same as another.

    One- many.

    But you need only one telling bad things and media brings it up and it ruins our reputation. And now we have had few “kukkahattutäti” telling lies about Finland.

    >Mark: though they can get REALLY STUCK on the fact that you are a foreigner to the extent that it tends to dominate conversations.

    Sure, if I go to other country they ask me where I am from, how is life in Finland, is Nokia really that good, how can we live in such a cold place, etc. Usually that subject dominates discussion all over the world.
    No matter where you go local people ask questions about your life.

    >Mark: In the international beauty stakes, I think many Finns get caught up in being worried about not being that well-known and therefore worried about their ‘international status’.

    Worried? No, that is normal that they don’t know much about us. Why should we worry about that?
    If I talk to US people they expect me to know that their country is known in the whole world and they are better people than any others. People in other countries have different identity and expectations about foreigners.

    >Mark: When foreigners don’t want to play that game (after ten years of being here), then some Finns are surprised that you don’t want to talk about it constantly. For them, it might be the topic of one conversation in a thousand. For foreigners, it’s probably one conversation in 20!!!

    So you expect Finns to be different and better than people in other countries?

    If you feel your friends talk about you being a foreigner constantly, then you might want to change your friends… not all Finns are like that. Or perhaps the reason is that you bring the subject up without seeing it?

  106. Mark

    Toni

    But you need only one telling bad things and media brings it up and it ruins our reputation. And now we have had few “kukkahattutäti” telling lies about Finland.

    I don’t think so. Also, a foreigners view of Finland is not going to be the same as Finns. That’s the point. Dismissing it because ‘they don’t know’ is rather burying your head about what problems might actually exist.

    No matter where you go local people ask questions about your life.

    Yes, I know that. But it can also be a kind of ‘positioning’, where they cope with your sense of difference by immediately making it the topic of conversation. Imagine if it was a facial disfigurement, and everyone you met decided to mention it to you. You’d soon get fed up and people would understand why.

    Worried? No, that is normal that they don’t know much about us. Why should we worry about that?

    Well, you tell me, you are the one who just wrote:

    But you need only one telling bad things and media brings it up and it ruins our reputation. And now we have had few “kukkahattutäti” telling lies about Finland.

    Clearly you are concerned about it too.

    So you expect Finns to be different and better than people in other countries?

    Toni, the simple fact is that being a foreigner is more of a big deal in Finland precisely because in larger numbers, they are a recent phenomenon. I’ve no problem with that. It’s not about expecting ‘Finns’ to be different. It’s about hoping that individuals I’ve met would stop for a moment and consider me a person, with family, with experiences, with a work history, with ideas about life, and not merely an ‘observer sent from Mars’.

    If you feel your friends talk about you being a foreigner constantly, then you might want to change your friends… not all Finns are like that. Or perhaps the reason is that you bring the subject up without seeing it?

    😀 Well, maybe you would like to think that, but it wouldn’t be true. I’m not just talking about ‘friends’, but rather acquaintances and work colleagues, of which there are many. It might surprise you to know that immigration is very rarely a topic with any of my friends in Finland, although recently I have been asking some questions of Finns, especially older Finns that can bring some longer-term perspective to this issue.

  107. I am

    Worried? No, that is normal that they don’t know much about us. Why should we worry about that

    Huuum
    Oh i know alot about Finland,so much, it was not hard to know about many things here, was veryyyyyyyyy easy for me.

    Also i know if i say oh am happy here, then am a good person, we foreigners have different experiences about our life here in Finland, for me was not safe, was not okay, was not joy but hurt and pain.
    It can be a pradise for a foreigner sure, we have different life here, all depends to
    What is our situation here, Jobs, family situation, and most important whats our idea about Finland? and also many other things
    But it is againt my human rights that i hide my pain and say om great, all is okay with me here.
    When say racist, when i sue racist word i see hate around me more and more it is no mean that i say all r racist,i just talk about racist person and a racist person can be a foreigner too, also racist one is not mean Finland a country is bad, i love Finland , i love world, it mean racist in Finland made a hard life for me.If i cant talk even on net then whats mean the freedom of speech, i dont have it here in real life, nooo
    But what is important for us, to hear what we like it and wait for hear about or to hear about the fact ??and real stories.
    Have a great day all and MT

    • Mark

      I am

      But what is important for us, to hear what we like it and wait for hear about or to hear about the fact ??and real stories.

      Thanks for sharing some of your story here.

  108. Toni

    >Mark: Also, a foreigners view of Finland is not going to be the same as Finns. That’s the point.

    No. My point is that now few “kukkahattutätiä” have presented their opinions as what they believe all foreigners think about Finland.

    You are trying to claim I dismiss some foreigners opinions. No, I dismiss some “kukkahattutätien” opinions when they think they represent all foreigers.

    >Mark: Clearly you are concerned about it too.

    No, I am concerning the mis-truth some people keep telling. I am not concerning if foreigners don’t know about us.

    >Mark: Toni, the simple fact is that being a foreigner is more of a big deal in Finland precisely because in larger numbers, they are a recent phenomenon.

    I don’t understand. We have had “foreigners” for hundreds of years.
    Now we have more working foreigners and more criminal foreigners here. Criminals we don’t like that much.

    >Mark: It’s about hoping that individuals I’ve met would stop for a moment and consider me a person, with family, with experiences, with a work history, with ideas about life, and not merely an ‘observer sent from Mars’.

    What have you done when they don’t treat you as a person? There must be something wrong if people around you don’t behave normal?

    We have many foreigners here and in my hobbies I meet many foreigners. We don’t much talk about where they come from but enjoy work or hobby time.

    But sometimes I like to hear their opinions about what they think about life in Finland. That I ask because some “kukkahattutäti” says they feel we don’t like them… and every time these foreigners tell how nice place Finland is and how polite Finns are comparing to their experience on living in other countries. Sometimes they give examples on their country and hope that similar multicultural chaos won’t ever reach Finland.

    So I have to ask, find me a foreigner who doesn’t like Finns…

    • Mark

      Toni

      You are trying to claim I dismiss some foreigners opinions. No, I dismiss some “kukkahattutätien” opinions when they think they represent all foreigers.

      Well, no-one can speak for the whole group of foreigners. So I suppose as long as these flowerpots are only talking about their own experiences, you will take them seriously?

      No, I am concerning the mis-truth some people keep telling. I am not concerning if foreigners don’t know about us.

      I take it that that means you are also concerned for what kinds of experiences foreigners have in Finland, even when those are not good experiences?

      I don’t understand. We have had “foreigners” for hundreds of years.
      Now we have more working foreigners and more criminal foreigners here. Criminals we don’t like that much.

      Well, if you have more foreigners, it stands to reason that you will also have more criminal foreigners. But hey, most of the immigrants don’t much like criminals either, so I guess that’s good too. Notice how you brought this conversation about ‘foreigners’ magically back to that conversational showpiece immigrant crime! You see, in a way, you illustrate well the problem, Toni.

      What have you done when they don’t treat you as a person? There must be something wrong if people around you don’t behave normal?

      Yes, of course, I must have done something wrong!!! Toni, Toni, Toni…..

      We have many foreigners here and in my hobbies I meet many foreigners. We don’t much talk about where they come from but enjoy work or hobby time.

      Good, glad to hear it. I guess you save your ‘foreigners and crime’ speeches for the internet then!

      So I have to ask, find me a foreigner who doesn’t like Finns…

      Hey, find me a foreigner that doesn’t dislike something about Finland? For that matter, find me a Finn that doesn’t dislike something about Finland :D.

  109. Toni

    >Mark: So I suppose as long as these flowerpots are only talking about their own experiences, you will take them seriously?

    They have no experience, they are Finns.

    >Mark: I take it that that means you are also concerned for what kinds of experiences foreigners have in Finland, even when those are not good experiences?

    Sure. But there are more bad experiences with Finns about foreigners… I hope they fix that problem first. That way every foreigner is welcomed here and no bad experience happens to them and not to Finns.

    >Mark: Yes, of course, I must have done something wrong!!! Toni, Toni, Toni…..

    Sorry. Others must have done something wrong, not you.

    >Mark: Hey, find me a foreigner that doesn’t dislike something about Finland? For that matter, find me a Finn that doesn’t dislike something about Finland

    Exactly 🙂

  110. I am

    I am a foreigner who can sing a song about the fact and not a song about what is not exist for me, i cant open my mouth and talk about what i dont have it here in my life.
    Nothing can makes me like that, nothing
    What does being honest mean then? I cant say lie to me, if i say i have a good life here then am not honest with me, if we r not honest with ourselves how r we will be able to honest with others?
    The fact is sweet and has power.
    Peace

  111. Toni

    Mark: Well, perhaps it has something to do with the surge of public support for a far right anti-immigration party whose members regularly promote hate speech.

    Hate speech? I haven’t seen that. I have seen much hate speech against Finns from you, Matt and MT right here.

  112. Toni

    Mark: An example of hate speech from me please.

    Racism is not increasing but has been decreasing in Finland. It is hate speech to say it is increasing.
    True Finns is not a racistic party. It is hate speech to say it is.
    Helena’s text did not flirt with natzism. It is hate speech to say it did.
    You tell Finns treat you badly and they are bad to discuss with.
    You tell Finns don’t treat you as a person. It is hate speech to say Finns are like that.
    You are clearly flirting that Finns are racists. It is hate speech.

  113. Mark

    Toni

    Mark: An example of hate speech from me please.
    Racism is not increasing but has been decreasing in Finland. It is hate speech to say it is increasing.

    Are you kidding me? Toni, my sweet, dearest, drunken friend!

    No-one knows for sure what the level of racism is. It’s very hard to measure for all sorts of reasons. All we can say for certain is that it’s probably wise to look at several factors together (hate crimes against foreigners, unemployment rates vs. educational status, surveys etc.). The rise of a Far Right party can also be seen as at least to some extent signifying an expression of disatisfaction with increased immigration to Finland and possibly also negative attitudes towards immigrants that can give rise to racist acts. Either way, to say that someone who suggests it’s increasing, while YOU believe for whatever convenient reason that it is decreasing is commiting hate crime is just a catastrophic failure of judgement, my friend. Tell me it’s the booze talking?

    So,where have I said that racism is increasing? I don’t usually get into those arguments, for the reasons stated above.

    True Finns is not a racistic party. It is hate speech to say it is.

    Oh dear, Toni. Whether PS is a racist party or not is not a question I’m going to bother trying to answer. However, to say there are no racists in PS is about as dumb as it gets. I guess you are not saying that.

    Where have I said that PS is a racist party? Again, it’s not an argument I’m likely to get myself into.

    Helena’s text did not flirt with natzism. It is hate speech to say it did.

    Toni – we can argue till the cows come home about whether it was good satire or bad satire, but one thing that is absolutely clear is that references to badges of idenfication for ‘policing’ purposes on minority groups by a political representative is about as Nazi as it gets, even if it was purely ‘satire’.

    You tell Finns treat you badly and they are bad to discuss with.

    So what! The point of telling you this was not to point out racism. I made that clear. It’s about trying to point out the relationship to foreigners and how it can easily get stuck on the ‘othering’ of people. I don’t look down on Finns that do it; I simply realise that it denies me a certain social reality that is more of a given in my native culture.

    You tell Finns don’t treat you as a person. It is hate speech to say Finns are like that.

    Yeah, right. Take a fucking chill pill, Toni!

    You are clearly flirting that Finns are racists. It is hate speech.

    Here you go again – the ‘you say Finns are racists’. This is just not a question I will even begin to entertain, same as ‘Finland is a racist country’, or ‘PS is a racist party’. Anyone who knows anything about my views on this blog will tell you that this is a fact about me. I’m not interested in those questions. But, if you are saying to me that anyone who claims that there are racists in Finland is using ‘hate speech’, I will say that you are sorely in need of an education.

    I do not think for one second that if a person in Finland is a racist that it is because they are a Finn. I don’t think it is their nationality or any other group characteristic that makes them this way, though clearly group membership can sustain and reinforce racism. It is down to the individual’s choices. And there are racist individuals in Finland.

    Well, after that lovely inspiring, confidence building list of things that you consider hate speech, I’m still none the wiser as to what it is that I have written that has led you to decide to accuse me of ‘hate speech’.

    Toni – my threshold for tolerating abuse is not that high, so I suggest you either change your tone, or get to the point. Either way, slur and slander do not endear you to me one little bit!

  114. Toni

    Mark: “Are you kidding me? Toni, my sweet, dearest, drunken friend!”

    That is also hate speech?
    You write for kidding others?

    Mark: “The rise of a Far Right party…”

    What party? True Finns is not a Far Right party. RKP is far more right. They are still giving medals in the name of known racist.

    Mark: “However, to say there are no racists in PS is about as dumb as it gets. I guess you are not saying that.”

    I am not saying there are no racists, but no-one has been proven as a racist. So, innocent until proven quilty? Belonging to Sisu is not racism because Sisu has not been proven as a racist group. Belonging to RKP has more proof to be racistic.

    Mark: “is about as Nazi as it gets, even if it was purely ‘satire’”

    Why it is Natsism to suggest using sleeve bandits?
    It is normal in military, corporation and in sports like for a captain of a football team.

    Mark: “The point of telling you this was not to point out racism”

    But I felt it was racism as you felt Helena’s text was racism. We are both wrong?

    Mark: “Take a fucking chill pill, Toni!”

    Now you suggest I need a fucking pill? Is that hate speech or sarcasm? I can’t tell… I don’t need a pill for fucking or chilling…

    Mark: “I will say that you are sorely in need of an education.”

    I need education on how you can say someone is using hate speech but I can’t? What kind of diploma is needed for that and from where I can get one and how?

    Mark: “I suggest you either change your tone, or get to the point.”

    My point: I don’t understand why you say someone is racist or using hate speech just if you feel like it?
    You tell someone’s text is racist or hate speech but isn’t that hate speech to say so, if it is just an opinion?
    Why drinking Fanta is not an act of hate but talking about sleeve bandits is? Both are normal acts of normal people and widely used in our society today… even Natsis used both. Fanta they invented and using sleeve bandits has much longer history…

    • Mark

      Toni

      Your comments are unnecessarily provocative. You still haven’t told which particular thing I wrote that was hate speech, so from my point of view, you are talking a lot of hot air. If you are just trying to claim that words like racism are completely arbitrary concepts, you are mistaken, and if you also think Suomen Sisu are not racist, then clearly you are doing a whitewash. This is the group that opposes mixed marriages, for goodness sake.

      I cannot be bothered to reply too the rest of your post, it was to depressingly ignorant.

  115. Toni

    Mark: “and if you also think Suomen Sisu are not racist, then clearly you are doing a whitewash. This is the group that opposes mixed marriages, for goodness sake.”

    Where can I read about that opposing? Or did you just invent it?

    Some RKP members don’t want their children in same school with Finns. They were furious when that was suggested. That is not racism?

    In RKP they still give medals by the name of known racist. Isn’t that racism? They cherish the old days when they were master race here and Finns were much lower people.

    Is Kokoomus party child mulaster party because they support baby girls genitals to be mutilated?

    • Mark

      Toni

      Where can I read about that opposing? Or did you just invent it?

      How about here, from their online manifesto! First paragraph!!!!!!:

      Kansoja ei saa tarkoituksellisesti sekoittaa keskenään eikä tuhota historiallisesti kehittyneitä kulttuureita korvaamalla ne globaalilla alakulttuurien kirjolla. Kansoja ei saa alistaa ylikansallisille taloudellisille arvoille.

      Now do you think that ‘kansoja’ is peoples, populations or nations? And exactly what do they mean by ‘not be intentionally mixed’? What is the practical outcome of this policy? Is it merely to stop immigration? In which case, why not write, “immigration should be limited”. Nope. Nations should not be mixed. And that’s the mildest interpretation and it still effectively means no mixed marriages.

      And how about this for a lovely bit of fascism later on in the manifesto:

      Taideteokset kuvaavat hyvin kulloistakin kulttuuria. Yhteiskunnassa, jossa taideteokset elävät lyhyitä aikoja tai jossa taide muistuttaa erehdyttävästi jätettä, ei kukaan voi voida hyvin. Taideteokset ja monumentit auttavat ihmisiä yhteisöllisyyden luomisessa, eikä se aina toteudu nykytaiteen avulla.

      I can just hear the Department for Cultural Purity musing over an anthology of Monty Python sketches….”hmm, it’s confusing; it doesn’t add anything to our community; It’s not Finnish; it’s not a monument to the people; BAN IT, BIN IT, BURN IT!”

      And you can say goodbye to your McDonalds restaurants if this little chestnut gets taken to its full conclusion:

      Epävarmojen hallitsijoiden pyrkimykset imeä vieraita vaikutteita “täydentämään” omaa kulttuuriamme ovat rikoksia kansakuntaa vastaan. Lyhytnäköinen muotivillitys ei saa korvata omaa historiaamme.

      The whole document is a typical fascist, nationalist and racist rant that nevertheless dresses up its extremism by constant appeals to the ‘national good’. Bollocks! It’s about control, control, and more control.

      Much like the way YOU are trying to control what the idea of hate speech is by using it liberally and without any discrimination, dabbing it here and there like a hanky on a snotty nose day!

      You can come here and try to blur the boundaries of hate speech or tolerance or good manners all you like, all the while slurring and slandering as if it was going out of fashion, but if you think I’m going to swallow your bullshit, you are sorely mistaken, Toni!

  116. Toni

    Mark: “How about here, from their online manifesto! First paragraph!!!!!!:
    “Kansoja ei saa tarkoituksellisesti sekoittaa keskenään”

    What? And how is that opposing mixed race marriages??? Can you explane why do you believe so?

    I understand they mean we should not bring Africans here just for creating multicultural society. They don’t oppose immigrants coming here to work, get married, mix races and raise a family.

    Sisu: “Eri kansat, rodut ja kulttuurit ovat itsessään arvokkaita”

    But RKP doesn’t believe so. They think Finns are not equal and as valuable as they are..

    Some men go to Asia to find a wife. I wonder why many feminists are against that kind of race mixing? At the same time the feminists go to Turkey or to Mauritius for a sex-vacation.

  117. Mark

    Toni

    Mark: “How about here, from their online manifesto! First paragraph!!!!!!:
    “Kansoja ei saa tarkoituksellisesti sekoittaa keskenään”

    I understand they mean we should not bring Africans here just for creating multicultural society.

    Toni. You are impossible. You say that this is not opposing mixed marriages, and in the next breath you say it says that Africans should not be allowed in Finland. Contradiction, anyone? Why don’t you want Africans? Because you don’t want them to even have the opportunity to marry Finnish women? I mean, marrying would give rise to ‘mixing of nations’, no? This paragraph says nothing about Africans, Toni. It does say that ‘nations should not be mixed’. No qualifications on that. NO exceptions mentioned.

    The logic of you idiots is to paint it yellow and call it green, and then fight and argue with everyone else, saying that it really is GREEN and not yellow! I don’t know if it’s calculated obfuscation or really just an IQ in the 60 range!

    They don’t oppose immigrants coming here to work, get married, mix races and raise a family.

    This contradicts their stated first principle, no mixing of nations. There is no qualification of this first principle in the text, so I assume they are being pragmatic in saying that some mixing is okay. Then, when they achieve enough support, they can bring in the law that properly reflects this first principle!

    This kind of statement is racist and fascist. Deny it all you want, but I promise you that to the ordinary folks of this world, this is as plain as the nose on your face! Even your statement that you don’t want Africans in Finland clearly identifies you as a racist! Now tell me your opinion is based totally on the facts, on crime rates, on opposing religious extremism, on being for the rights of women, and on IQ testing?

    Come on, Toni, dress up this gentle hatred into something sweet and soothing that I can put on my morning porridge and that won’t give me moral indigestion!!!

  118. Toni

    Mark: “You say that this is not opposing mixed marriages, and yet in your own words, you say this says that Africans should not be allowed in Finland. ”

    I do not say that. You manipulate me. And it doesn’t say that. You manipulate it.
    I can say it again:

    They don’t oppose immigrants (=Africans, Asians, Americans, Australians,..) coming here to work, get married, mix races and raise a family.

    So, how do you read this that they oppose Africans coming to Finland??? I don’t understand. It seems you are trying hard to twist everything to support your thougts… is it hate thinking?

    Mark. “Because you don’t want them to even have the opportunity to marry Finnish women? I mean, that will give rise to ‘mixing of nations’, no?”

    If Africans are welcomed to come here to work, why they don’t have the opportunity to meet women? I don’t understand your manipulation.

    Mark: “This contradicts their stated first principle, no mixing of nations”

    That is not a correct translation. You are missing one word. I don’t know how to translate “tarkoituksellisesti”. It means you bring people here for mixing race, not for work. No-one opposes mixing working races who give a contribution to society.

    Do you undertand my point finally?

    • Mark

      They don’t oppose immigrants (=Africans, Asians, Americans, Australians,..) coming here to work, get married, mix races and raise a family.

      And yet they oppose the mixing of nations? It’s a contradiction, Toni.

      So, how do you read this that they oppose Africans coming to Finland???

      I didn’t mention Africans, Toni, you did.

      I understand they mean we should not bring Africans here just for creating multicultural society.

      So, as long as they are not here to create to a multicultural society, it’s okay? I can see it now:

      Finnish border guard: Hey, there, you African, are you coming here to Finland to create a multicultural society?
      African: Ugh, me? Ugh, no officer, I’m not.
      Finnish border guard: Okay, then you can pass.

      If Africans are welcomed to come here to work, why they don’t have the opportunity to meet women? I don’t understand your manipulation.

      It’s not my contradiction. They oppose mixing.

      That is not a correct translation. You are missing one word. I don’t know how to translate “tarkoituksellisesti”. It means you bring people here for mixing race, not for work. No-one opposes mixing working races who give a contribution to society.

      Tarkoituksellisesti means ‘intentionally’. And I did translate it in my original comment. Intentional mixing is interesting. Does it mean ‘government policy’ or does it mean individual citizens ‘intentionally’ deciding to get married. If we look at the ‘government policy’, then you have to ask, ‘does the government promote or suggest or enforce ‘mixing of nations’ as policy? In other words, when the foreigners turn up at the border, does the border guard ask ‘Are you here to take part in our policy of ‘mixing nations’? Well, no. Immigrants come here and are allowed into Finland for many reasons, but ‘mixing of nations’ is not one of them.

      Does it refer to ‘intentional mixing’ that comes when individuals decide to marry a foreigner? You say it doesn’t.

      So this ‘intentionally’ carries almost no meaning in any political or practical sense.

      But why did they choose this wording if this is not what they mean? If they had said, “Immigration Policy should be strict”, I would say, okay, this is typical right wing policy, not necessarily Far Right and not fascist. But by mentioning ‘mixing of races’, they have introduced a whole different set of criteria for understanding what immigration is, what it’s purpose is and why it should be opposed.

      If you cannot see that, then I’m sorry for you, because you have been duped, conned, led down the garden path. This is not a statement that reflects a nice and gentle, human-rights-friendly strict immigration policy – it’s a veiled cover for white supremacism. And not that well veiled.

      I can understand the pragmatism that says, hey, people can still choose, as long as the government doesn’t follow an intentional policy that would actually allow individuals the freedom to choose in the first place. No immigrants from Africa, as you so nicely put it for multicultural reasons, and everyone is happy. Yep:

      Finnish border guard: Hey, there, you African, are you coming here to Finland to create a multicultural society?
      African: Ugh, me? Ugh, no officer, I’m not.
      Finnish border guard: Okay, then you can pass.

      Everyone is happy, no?

      Do you undertand my point finally?

  119. Toni

    Mark: “And yet they oppose the mixing of nations?”

    No they don’t. RKP is opposing it much more clear.

    Mark: “I didn’t mention Africans, Toni, you did.”

    Yes. “Suvaitsevaisto” is against importing hard working Asians. Sisu is against importing Africans who don’t want to work. Not all Africans are like that.

    Mark: “So, as long as they are not here to create to a multicultural society, it’s okay?”

    ?? They are creating multicultural society and it’s okey.

    But some immigrants are coming here and denying multicultural but demanding their culture to be the only one for them, is that okey?

  120. Mark

    But some immigrants are coming here and denying multicultural but demanding their culture to be the only one for them, is that okey?

    If they are not breaking any laws, it’s fine. Those laws also cover ethnic agitation and hate speech. They apply to immigrants as much as to Finns. Even if they break laws, I think they should be treated equally as Finnish citizens, though I understand this is not always the case.

    But this is moving the goalposts from the original point, which is Suomen Sisu have stated in their manifesto that they are against ‘intentional mixing of races’. The fact that that sentence makes it to the first paragraph, with no qualifications makes them a fascist and racist ideology.

    I don’t care that they practice some kind of pragmatism at the individual level if their stated government policy is ‘to not mix peoples/nations/races’. The ‘intentionality’ is something of a red herring, as I’ve already shown.

    That coupled with their desire to control culture or even to steer culture away from ‘fashion’, from ‘confusing forms’, and to channel it into ‘serving the community and history’ is deeply deeply troubling. Only extremist groups even stop to include ‘culture’ in this way into a manifesto. They even want to control the language and ‘loan words’. It’s everything the Nazis wanted to do.

    The end result of that kind of ‘principle’ if followed through into policy is more and more government CONTROL OVER CULTURE. The fact that they oppose modern art is itself a true sign of fascism, as modern art had it’s roots in a political subversive movement opposed to fascism and its authoritarian demand for ‘conservative conventions of art’.

  121. Toni

    Opposing mixing races is not racism. Opposing mixing races because some race is better than other is racism. Sisu tells all races are equal and with same value. They don’t think one race is better than other.

    So, Sisu is not racistic. You agree? And we have only one race of humans on this planet.

    >Mark. “If they are not breaking any laws, it’s fine.”

    But it is not fine to suggest sleeve badges, even it is not braking any laws? So, some legal things are fine and some are not?

    It is fine supporting russians who killed 20million people or chinese who killed 60million people? It is fine supporting muslims who killed 5 million people and keep slavering and killing christians every day?

    So, I can wear a “turban” without anyone creating headlines of supporting muslims killing christians? I can have a chines farmer hat without referring how Mao killed 60millon farmers?
    But if I wear a football captain bandit in my arm I am a natzi?

    • Migrant Tales

      Toni, I don’t see any sense in looking at people as groups. Maybe a more effective way would be to look at them as by the skills they bring to the country.

      Switzerland is a case in its own. When I visited the country in the end of 2008 I asked about immigration issues. They said they have had so little experience in living in a more culturally diverse society. Was this an excuse for failing and not accepting that they are today more culturally diverse?

  122. Toni

    >mark: “Toni, I don’t see any sense in looking at people as groups.”

    Most people want to belong to a group. Many scientists use grouping to analyse data.
    If you don’t want to group people don’t blame others if they want to do so. Most humans need a group to belong to. Some call then friends, some call them a team, some call them a group.

  123. I am

    What is hate speech? Hi MT

    Dont use racist word
    Dont talk about ur pain
    Dont be free in ur mind, just think like me
    Dont say me a hi, i have no time to answer u
    Dont call my name, i never call ur name
    Dont hug me, i dont like u
    Dont talk about ur family, they are not worthy
    Be quiet, listen to me, am completely right
    Answer my question, who r u? where r u from? why/ why/why/why/?????
    Dont debate, dont dont dont
    Dont stand for ur right , what u want? u r nothing, i know u, u r all same same….. OH NO PLEASE AM NOT WHAT R U THINKING, AM UR FRIEND…….go, leave me alone,
    U should, U must, U have
    Say me yes, i cant hear NO
    Say me okay, i dont accept why?
    Dont laugh, change yourself, u r here in my area
    cant u understand? all is okay in ur life, i am understanding u and ur situation better than u, i am role, i am control, i am all u need be my robot, NO NO NO AM HUMAN AND NOT UR SLAVE
    ??????????????????????????????????????????????
    MY BEST FRIEND, DARLING WHY U ACCEPTED ME THEN????????
    ??????????????????????????????????????????????
    PEACE PEACE PEACE TO THE WORLD

    • Mark

      I am

      I love your replies sometimes. This was one of those times!

  124. Väinämöinen

    I am

    The police advice for internet-chats. ”When you are talking to an idiot, make sure that he/she doesn’t feel the same.”

    Why do I get the feeling that you are one of ”those”?

    • Mark

      I can see you don’t practice what you preach, Väinämöinen.

  125. I am

    Väinämöinen how is ur day,
    Our Feelings are coming from what we r , what we r believe it makes our feels
    Wish u a happy day Väinämöinen
    Smile

  126. I am

    http://www.teak.fi/Admission….. is your link okay Väinämöinen?

    So u r talking about theatre okay again?
    And i know ”Finnish people like theatre okay?and u r Finn okay?
    I said i aware, i know that my friend U like theatre
    So Well done to common sense, well done

    • Migrant Tales

      Toni, what is it that you want to prove? Is it that two wrongs make a right? I could, if I wished, post tons of crimes committed by white Finns. Is that ok? What you are effectively doing is victimizing groups. Why do you victimize? Is it because you have a hard time accepting other people and therefore you must ostracize them here.

      Migrant Tales is not that kind of a blog. You can go to Hommaforum or even Ylilauta to expose your view.

  127. Toni

    >Mark:”I could, if I wished, post tons of crimes committed by white Finns.”

    You could post one where a Finn rapes a somali girl.

    >Mark: Is it because you have a hard time accepting other people and therefore you must ostracize them here.

    No, I have hard time accepting these crimes. Should I just be silent and accept them? Should I just accept the problems and concentrate on other things?

    I like foreigners, but not all of them. I like Finns, but not all of them.

    • Mark

      Toni

      Sorry, my mistake. Your name was in use so often yesterday.

      Apology accepted, though I’m not sure whether I’m supposed to take some of the blame for your mistake 😀 Anyhow, it’s a mistake I sometimes make too.

  128. Peter

    Helena!
    You understand how Europe is changing in the wrong way.
    I live in Holland and saw what happened in the last twenty years.
    Our society is not the dutch society any longer as it was and will never been it again.
    Peter.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Our society is not the dutch society any longer as it was and will never been it again.

      Peter, that maybe your take and that of Geert Wilders’ but many who are not in the far right will agree with you. Societies and cultures never remain static. They are in constant change. Are you having trouble accepting that things change, even you age.

      Instead of whining how things were better in the past, give us some solutions.

  129. Toni

    I am waiting for your opening about most hot (rape) subject of this week…
    It may bee too difficult to hande, that I understand. What is most interesting is the silence… Lot’s of hate speech and no news about them.

  130. justicedemon

    Toni

    That’s hardly surprising, since the entire story is based on a criminal disclosure of private and confidential information that may damage the health and welfare of a vulnerable child.

    There is a difference between the statement of judgment, which is public, and the decision of the court, which was sealed for 60 years specifically to protect the complainant.

    Ricky commented on the behaviour of Teuvo Hakkarainen in a new ATL posting this morning. Whether this constitutes a criminal offence by Hakkarainen is an interesting question, but it clearly demonstrates deplorable indifference to the damage that disclosure can cause in such cases.

  131. eyeopener

    Hi JD.

    I have raised the possibility of a criminal offense early. I think it’s worth while checking legal grounds for this claim.

    I agree with you that the “move” is a demonstration of the “deplorable state of mind” of the right wing section of PS. Political gain is the only driver for this behavior. Social concern for the people involved is irrelevant for these people. Very cosy to start this “drag” from Singapore.

    Start the “shit” and then have a nice stay and then coming back and “play stupid”.

    Not an “easy piece of cake” when Finnish courts take themselves serious. Heavy stuff for Soini cs. to have a next attack on their “Finnish face”.

    Is the real PS face showing??

    Simple question.

  132. eyeopener

    Hi Toni.

    How many rape cases have there been in Finland in the last 4 months?? How many Finns have been involved??

    Although I have my legal doubts, but what about publishing the Finn victims (not by name) and the Finns perpetrators?? And then start a social media action against those persons. Is that what you suggest??

    I know it’s a little difficult to handle. Interesting is the silence you know. A lot of “BLABLABLA speech” and no news whatsoever.

    Simple as can be Toni.

    Awaiting your reply. 🙂

  133. Migrant Tales

    –I am sure there have been many rape cases and last years most of them are done by people with foreign backgroud (in Helsinki area). This is a fact that the police has presented.

    Wow, listen to him speak. Mr know-it-all.

    Now, give us the source, ok?

  134. Toni

    JD: “That’s hardly surprising, since the entire story is based on a criminal disclosure of private and confidential information that may damage the health and welfare of a vulnerable child.”

    It was a public document. That is why murderes, drunk drivers and other criminals get their name in the news.

    Are you referring the rapists with this: “vulnerable child”?
    The document didn’t include the victime’s name.

    If you can show the law that tells when the name of a rapist must not be published I am pleased. Is there a law that tells you can commit a rape without your name being published when committing (any) other crime your name will be published… Is raping a special crime that those criminals need protection but killers don’t need it?

    Eveliina Lappalainen (14v) was brutally murdered and everyone knows the name who did it with the age of 15v.

  135. Toni

    MT: “Now, give us the source, ok?”

    You have to remember that this rape crime was also made by Finns. It was just an other case about rape crimes that Finns do… It is hard to tell how many of these Finns are with similar foreign background..

    Nyt on vuosi 2012, tämä siis pari vuotta vanha:
    “Tilastokeskuksen rikostilastojen mukaan raiskausrikoksiin syyllisiksi epäillyistä peräti 45 prosenttia on ulkomaalaisia tai ulkomailla syntyneitä. Koko maan kattava tilastotieto on vuodelta 2010.”
    http://www.tamperelainen.fi/artikkeli/75063-virtuaalipoliisi-rikkoi-tabun-nain-moni-raiskauksista-epailty-on-ulkomaalainen

    If you want more recent data I can give you a link to video of A-studio last year.

    But you already know this stuff because you keep writing about this…

  136. justicedemon

    Toni

    The correspondingly calculated rate of child rape by Finnish immigrants in Thailand is much higher. This is extraordinary, bearing in mind that those immigrants tend to be quite elderly.

    If you have any expertise in statistics at all, then you should be able to find the obvious crass calculation error that can lead to such a conclusion. Then you can correct exactly the same crass error in the figures from your link.

  137. Toni

    >JD: “The correspondingly calculated rate of child rape by Finnish immigrants in Thailand is much higher. This is extraordinary, bearing in mind that those immigrants tend to be quite elderly.”

    Likely to be true. I can explane easily… And we regognize this problem. I has been in the news. It is a known fact. Didn’t you now it?

    But I hope to see a source like MT asked me. Perhaps not all rape cases are reported in Thailand, like “you” keep telling not all rape cases are reported in Finland… 😉

    >JD: “If you have any expertise in statistics at all, then you should be able to find the obvious crass calculation error that can lead to such a conclusion. Then you can correct exactly the same crass error in the figures from your link.”

    What crass error “karkea virhe”? Can you explane?
    I see no error…

  138. justicedemon

    Toni

    It was a public document.

    How did you deduce that from salainen 2072 asti? Is it common, in your experience, for public documents to specify that they must be kept secret?

    The complainant was (and still is) a vulnerable child. Please read what I wrote above about the reason for hearing this case in camera and declaring the decision secret. The statement of judgement (tuomiolauselma) is public, and this was reported in the press last week in line with media guidelines.

    The full decision of the court includes more than enough specific detail to identify the complainant – and indeed precisely to the people whose knowledge of the case will cause the most trauma. This is precisely why the court issued a classified decision and it did so at the complainant’s request. This is not a game of political point-scoring.

    This serious and willful breach of the court’s confidentiality order now jeopardises the appeal. If the complainant cannot be cross-examined on appeal, then the appeal will succeed by default. This will also make it more difficult to bring such cases to court in future.

  139. justicedemon

    Toni

    Likely to be true. I can explane easily

    OK – please explain. Let’s say that there are Finnish suspects in 50 cases of child rape in Thailand annually. There are about 1,000 mainly elderly Finnish immigrants in Thailand. Is it fair to say that 5 per cent of these old people are active child rapists?

    You might also bear in mind that the total population of Thailand is about 65 million, and there are only a couple of thousand cases of suspected child rape annually. This means that the national average rate works out at less than one-tenth of one per cent. So you are comparing a rate of 5 per cent for mainly elderly Finnish immigrants with a national rate of less that 0.1 per cent.

    I await your explanation with interest. Perhaps you will even see the crass error.

  140. Toni

    JD: “How did you deduce that from salainen 2072 asti? ”

    What I understand (I may be wrong): the original document, including victime’s name, was “salainen”. The published document was not original document but a public document. Everyone can go and read it. Publishing it on net is a question the police is thinking if it was legal or not. With those parts that included rapists’ social numbers…

    I know it was marked “salainen” but can you tell me why it is “salainen” if other similar crime documents are not? Was it because the rapists were not fully Finns? That is what many Finns are wondering..

    JD: “Is it common, in your experience, for public documents to specify that they must be kept secret?”

    I have no experience. Ask the police who agrees publishing this may be legal…

    JD: “Please read what I wrote above about the reason for hearing this case in camera and declaring the decision secret. The statement of judgement (tuomiolauselma) is public, and this was reported in the press last week in line with media guidelines.”

    Sorry, I don’t understand.. above… hearing this in camera? Anyway I am not to blame of publishing it. And personally I was happy it was published because the news twisted the case.

    You have no comments on my questions about that?

    I agree that publishing the documet was not a nice thing but perhaps it was necessary. We shall see. I am pleased to read it.

    But do you understand why it was published??

    You may have a point in your message’s last part but like I have few times told: I don’t understand english well enough to undesrtand that kind of text with so many uncommon words…

  141. Toni

    JD: “OK – please explain.”

    It seems I don’t have to: You already know it as follows below:

    JD: “Let’s say that there are Finnish suspects in 50 cases of child rape in Thailand annually. There are about 1,000 mainly elderly Finnish immigrants in Thailand. Is it fair to say that 5 per cent of these old people are active child rapists?”

    After you show me a source I can agree.
    And can you tell me why 5% of these old Finns in Thailand are child rapists?
    Could it be the same reason why 10-50% of some foreigner groups are rapists in Finland? 😉

    JD: “You might also bear in mind that the total population of Thailand is about 65 million, and there are only a couple of thousand cases of suspected child rape annually.”

    Because of not all family rapes are reported, like you keep telling is the case here in Finland.

    After this I didn’t understand, sorry. My english skills are only 90%…

    JD: “I await your explanation with interest. Perhaps you will even see the crass error.”

    And I still wonder are you so naive and don’t see…

  142. Mark

    Toni

    But do you understand why it was published??

    No I don’t. Simply deciding it was in the public interest because the perpetrator was Somali is racist, as well as ignoring the needs of the victim. It is racist because the ethnicity is irrelevant, unless your goal is ethnic agitation. Oh, yes, it was Hakkarainen! Enough said.

    The court is there to decide the punishment. It is not the way in Finland for politicians to see it as their work to hold all criminals up to the public gallery for condemnation. That is why we have a court system. It is disgusting that he is abusing his position as a politican to gain votes and to stir up ethnic hatred. Disgusting. The man is just not fit for public office.

  143. Toni

    >Mark: Toni: But do you understand why it was published??
    >No I don’t.

    I tought it was clear. I already told it few times. Don’t you read my msgs??

    You don’t want to know why?? Why didn’t you ask?? Instead you focused on blaming those who published it. Did you plan to ask it next week?

    Do I need to explain it again?

  144. Toni

    Mark: “Oh, yes, it was Hakkarainen! Enough said.”

    Hakkarainen didn’t publish it. He was just one of many who linked it to his blog after someone published a public document. I don’t know who put it to net but many times media informs names of criminals. At least murderers and many others. I wonder why the media didn’t publish them this time.

    Mark: “it was in the public interest because the perpetrator was Somali is racist, as well as ignoring the needs of the victim.”

    It was weird that news reported about girl so much but not about rapists. So the news was racistic itself.

  145. eyeopener

    Hi Toni.

    Then…….inform yourself first who published the document first!! Someone is not really evidence. We are talking here about Hakkarainen’s behavior, not someone else!!

    That’s Hakkarainen’s problem that the girl gets in the publicity. He got the wrong idea. Seems a little stressed this guy!!

    Praising the attitude of foreigners in Singapore?? In an Islamic city-state. Is he crazy??

    Oh no, it’s satire. It was meant to be sarcastically.

    But……… keep up your smiling face. The mud is already showing.

  146. Toni

    eyeopener: “Then…….inform yourself first who published the document first!! ”

    Well, Hakkarainen was out of country, so it must have been someone else. Open your eyes.
    What was wrong with his behaviour? Please, open my eyes.

    Why the girls gets any publicty because no-one knows who she is?

  147. eyeopener

    Hi Toni.

    Yeah. It was nice to comment from Singapore. You are a little ignorant on the internet possibilities. Can’t blame you for this. Too shallow.

    Your friend Hakkarainen -as a politician- should be far more careful of the consequences. Just look at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17809268 for sever outcomes.

    But I believe that just what irresponsible parliamentaries want.

    Will get him in troubles!!

  148. Toni

    Did he publish the victime’s name?

    >Will get him in troubles!!

    The document he published was a public document.
    There is no law against publishing a public document. So why would someone put him to jail??

  149. eyeopener

    Toni.

    Don’t you think it’s time to leave this blog and find another place to “speak your peace”. Here you have nothing to contribute only “bull-shit”.

    Thank you for being so kind.

  150. Toni

    You keep telling how bad it was when Hakkarainen published a victime’s name. But he didn’t.
    Can you confirm this? Or am I wrong and just bullshitting? Or is it you and it is time for you to find an other place..?

  151. eyeopener

    Toni.

    You can’t read very well do you. Your time’s over here. Didn’t you get that meassage??

    That you are bullshitting?? Yeah in many places. Too many places. I know the right place for you Ylirautio. That’s your place!!

  152. Toni

    eye: “You can’t read very well do you. Your time’s over here. Didn’t you get that meassage??”

    What message?

    eye: “That you are bullshitting?? Yeah in many places. Too many places. I know the right place for you Ylirautio. That’s your place!!”

    Who is Ylirautio?
    Why didn’t you answer to a simple question?

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