What kind of “integration” of immigrants do we want in Finland?

by , under All categories, Enrique

Before answering the question, let’s take a look at how some scholars define the three important modes in which a minority adapts to a new society.  In Finland, there is a lot of confusion about what is meant by integration. When politicians speak of integration of immigrants are they referring to assimilation, which is one-way adaption?

So, in effect, when some accuse me of being disrespectful of Finnish society because I want to debate an issue like immigrants/refugees, they most likely favor the assimilation model. Here is a definition by Tariq Modood:

“This [assimilation]  is where the processes affecting the relationship between newly settled groups are seen as one-way, and where the desired outcome for society as a whole is seen as involving least changes in the way of doing things for the majority of the country and its institutional policies.”

The other mode is called integration:

“This is where processes of social interaction are seen as two-way, and where members of the majority community as well as immigrants and ethnic minorities are required to do something; so the latter cannot alone be blamed for failing (or not trying) to integrate.”

And finally multiculturalism:

“…multiculturalism assumes a two-way process of integration but, additionally, it is taken to work differently for different groups.”

Thus multiculturalism takes into account different templates of integration. There is no “fits-all-sizes” approach.

Even though Finland accepts diversity (ethnic, sexual, financial etc), which mode of integration takes place and is encouraged: assimilation, integration or multiculturalism – or none of the above?

Taking into account high unemployment among immigrants and our general ignorance of diversity, is it fair to even speak of integration and multiculturalism in this country?

  1. Tiwaz

    Answer to this question then.

    What makes home really “home”?

    Here is one dictionary definition:
    “–noun
    1. a house, apartment, or other shelter that is the usual residence of a person, family, or household.
    2. the place in which one’s domestic affections are centered.
    3. an institution for the homeless, sick, etc.: a nursing home.
    4. the dwelling place or retreat of an animal.
    5. the place or region where something is native or most common.
    6. any place of residence or refuge: a heavenly home.
    7. a person’s native place or own country.
    8. (in games) the destination or goal.
    9. a principal base of operations or activities: The new stadium will be the home of the local football team.
    10. Baseball. home plate.
    11. Lacrosse. one of three attack positions nearest the opposing goal.”

    Notice specially numbers 5 and 7.

    Finland is my home. It is place where I am most comfortable, it is place where I am at ease. It is my native place, it is where I and my kind are native and most common.

    Now, if I were to start changing it to appease immigrants how long would I have this home? We shall present this process in simplified sense mathematically, let us say that my home starts with 100 units of “Finnishness”.

    In comes Somali who in exchange of my home losing 10 units of Finnishness agrees to adapt to Finland. Ok, I still have 90 units of Finnishness left. Then comes Mexican and again 10 units are gone. 80 to go. Vietnamese, and we are down to 70. Hungarian, 60.
    Russian, 50. American, 40. Guatemalan, 30. Iraqi, 20. Indian, 10. And then finally comes Nigerian and we have no Finnishness left at all. So where is MY home now, where I can feel like at home?

    And this assumes that each immigrant group would be happy with single “minor” change to host society.

    This “two way road” is not working because immigrants do not represent unified group. They all have different things they want to change in Finland, and often conflicting wants when they want to change same thing.

    Cultural and national identity is not some kind of bargaining thing.

    Look at UK, they HAD British culture. Today it is rapidly disappearing as immigrants push for their ways to be used instead of British. And White Flight is a fact of life. Britons no longer feel at home in their native land!

    French are fighting a battle to keep their land French, having much more success compared to Britons this far.

    Immigrants must accept that they cannot presume that things will go on as they did in their country of origin. If they would, they would not have moved to foreign country.

    And immigrants cannot presume that they have any right to demand natives to change their way of life to make things more comfortable for immigrants. Because who here wants to have their native land lose it’s identity and culture to appease foreigners who are never happy until they get pathetic carbon copy of their native land imposed on host society?

    Just to start bitching how things in host country are as bad as they were at home from which they left…

  2. JusticeDemon

    Is your “home” EXACTLY THE SAME now as it was when you were born, Tiwaz? Unless your diet consists solely of Elovena oats and kalakukko, I would be willing to bet that the contents of the pantry have changed beyond all recognition. How many foreign languages did your father or grandfather use regularly? How much leisure time did they typically have and how did they spend it? You seem to spend much of your leisure time posting on Internet forums.

    Where did you get the idea that increased diversity necessarily implies loss of anything? This is like arguing that Hobby Hall cannot add any more pages to its catalogue, but must remove readily saleable products from its range in order to make room for new products. In short, it implies that culture is a zero-sum game. Why shouldn’t my local Siwa sell turmeric and fresh mango if there is a market for these products, and why shouldn’t these products be available for sale to all customers equally?

    You also imply that individuals living in the place that (for reasons of pure biological accident) you call home must somehow be constrained by your requirements in respect of their cultural choices. This means no pizza unless you happen to like pizza, and so on. There is a name for that political position.

    I intend to hold you to the definition of culture that you supplied recently in another thread. By definition neither you nor anyone else can be the sole arbiter of what counts as the culture of the broad community in which we all live. The adjective that you use to identify this culture in relation to other cultures makes no difference to the content of that culture, nor does it limit the range of possible influences on that culture, because any such adjective can only be descriptive and not prescriptive. This is just another way of saying that nobody can reliably forecast the content of any culture.

    You use the adjective French as if it were comparable to lepidopteran or reptilian, when in fact this adjective more closely resembles modern or stylish.

  3. Tiwaz

    -“Is your “home” EXACTLY THE SAME now as it was when you were born, Tiwaz? Unless your diet consists solely of Elovena oats and kalakukko, I would be willing to bet that the contents of the pantry have changed beyond all recognition. How many foreign languages did your father or grandfather use regularly? How much leisure time did they typically have and how did they spend it? You seem to spend much of your leisure time posting on Internet forums.”

    AND WHO HAS DETERMINED WHAT I EAT AND WHAT I DO NOT?
    ME OR SOME WANKER FROM ABROAD?

    _THAT_ IS THE ISSUE!!

    -“Where did you get the idea that increased diversity necessarily implies loss of anything?”

    Because it does. Immigrants do not want to become Finns, they want Finland to become “just like home”.

    “This is like arguing that Hobby Hall cannot add any more pages to its catalogue, but must remove readily saleable products from its range in order to make room for new products.”

    It is like some guy from Los Angeles demanding that Hobby Hall puts whole 4 pages of ads for Hardcore Porn because he happened to be from hood where that was the norm.

    So as you see, it is a problem.

    “In short, it implies that culture is a zero-sum game. Why shouldn’t my local Siwa sell turmeric and fresh mango if there is a market for these products, and why shouldn’t these products be available for sale to all customers equally?”

    Culture is game of cohesion. What I find uncomfortable does not make me very likely to feel cohesion with rest of society.
    That is what you in your narrow little mind do not grasp.

    Finns, by and large, do not want things immigrants want. We do not want Burkhas, we do not want separate swimming times for men and women, we do not want honor murder, we do not want sharia.

    What I have repeatedly told you here, but which does not sink into your thick and racist head, is that Immigrants must adjust to FINNISH CULTURE AND SOCIETY AS IT IS.

    It does not mean they have to throw away everything about their culture, just everything which conflicts with Finnish society and it’s values.

    Society requires cohesion, cohesion requires unity and common values.

    If immigrants stick to their foreign values which conflict with Finnish ones, there is no cohesion.

    Only way anything can be added to Finnish culture is if it does not contradict with any part which already exists.

    What defines Culture is local majority. We Finns are very similar. You try to pretend we are not, but in the end we are. That is why we have functioning society.

    Trying to force foreign ways which do not fit into existing culture is only attempt to part by part demolish that functionality.

    • Enrique

      –Because it does. Immigrants do not want to become Finns, they want Finland to become “just like home”.

      If you lived abroad would you want to assimilate, integrate or live in a multicultural society? The days when immigrants were required to quietly assimilate are over. Why? Because this type of adaption does not work. It only serves the dominant culture and gives them ways to dominate the minority.

      –It is like some guy from Los Angeles demanding that Hobby Hall puts whole 4 pages of ads for Hardcore Porn because he happened to be from hood where that was the norm.

      In first place, hardcore porn is not a marketing tool to place such material. Your example is ludicrous.

      –Society requires cohesion, cohesion requires unity and common values.

      So you expect to attain this by forced assimilation (integration by perkele), ostracizing those that do not and stressing how inferior they are. Do you really know what it means to live in a society as a minority?

      Tiwaz, if we are serious, you do not speak for the Finns. If you do, you sound like a politician.

      –That is why we have functioning society.

      I commend Finland for creating a pretty egalitarian (this is probably a myth but let’s play along) society. However, in such a “perfect” society you cannot have huge contradictions of the kind you are speaking: foreigners are this and that and if they don’t integrate they must leave.

  4. Tiwaz

    -“If you lived abroad would you want to assimilate, integrate or live in a multicultural society? The days when immigrants were required to quietly assimilate are over. Why? Because this type of adaption does not work. It only serves the dominant culture and gives them ways to dominate the minority.”

    When I am abroad, first thing I get to my head that I am not at home. Things are not going to be like at home and that _I_ must respect local ways.

    Days of multiculturalism are done Enrique, look at politics. Those touchy-feely politicians who promote multiculturalism are starting to smell the roses. In democracy, MAJORITY is what matters. And majority in just about every given country are natives.

    They do not want foreigners to come and ruin their way of life, so either foreigners adjust and assimilate or things get nasty.

    Reality is that above all else, society needs cohesion. Cohesion requires unity and feeling of belonging. Those are things which multiculturalism is unable to give, because multiculturalism tries to promote segregated little groups trying to do their thing.

    Having one dominant culture setting framework for everyone is only functional way for society. Because that way, EVERYONE is on same page on what is acceptable/polite/nice and what is not.

    Multiculturalism is like trying to play game of football with rules from 20 different games and every set is presumed to be valid in the same field. It is failure.

    -“In first place, hardcore porn is not a marketing tool to place such material. Your example is ludicrous. ”

    Why not? If it is tool where that guy comes from why we should not add it to Hobby Hall?

    As you said, it is ludicrous idea in Finnish society though. Just like huge amount of things foreigners would want to introduce to Finnish society. They are ludicrously out of place here, conflicting with existing structures of society and culture.

    They are, in essence, demand of adding hardcore porn to Hobby Hall.

    -“So you expect to attain this by forced assimilation (integration by perkele), ostracizing those that do not and stressing how inferior they are. Do you really know what it means to live in a society as a minority?

    Tiwaz, if we are serious, you do not speak for the Finns. If you do, you sound like a politician. ”

    Too bad if they feel inferior. How about them adjusting to Finnish society and stop being inferior? Finnish society is built for Finnish standards. If you cannot fulfill those standards, one of which is fluent Finnish, you are inferior.

    Same way I would be inferior in Japan if I could not speak local language and read local writing.

    As for assimilation with perkele. If that is only thing that gets into thick heads of immigrants… Then so be it. I would prefer that more immigrants had grasp Tony here presents of necessity to adjust to society they move into. But if that does not take place, something else has to be done.

    It is becoming increasingly clear that doing things the nice way is not working for certain groups. If that does not work, then it is time to get less nice.

    If immigrants do not stop shitting on our carpet when we ask nicely, it is time to break out the less nice ways.

    -“I commend Finland for creating a pretty egalitarian (this is probably a myth but let’s play along) society. However, in such a “perfect” society you cannot have huge contradictions of the kind you are speaking: foreigners are this and that and if they don’t integrate they must leave.”

    Functional society requires unity and cohesion. If foreigners are not contributing to unity and cohesion, they are problem.

    There is no long term functionality without homogenity.

  5. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    You ask (shout) who has determined what you eat. Look in your pantry and ask yourself the same question. Why isn’t your diet the same as the diet of your grandfather? On the other hand, why doesn’t it include casu marzu, escamoles, lutefisk, surströmming, huitlacoche, winkles or any insect species (ants, grasshoppers, sago worms, Bogong moths, witchety grubs)? Why is it more likely to include blood sausage, blood pancakes and mämmi? How about sylta?

    What is left in your pantry after you remove processed foods of foreign origin and imported recipes such as pizza and various forms of pasta?

    The food that you eat is very largely determined by a complex combination of factors in your immediate micro-environment. These factors began to influence your preferences before you were even meaningfully self-aware. This is why your diet differs so much even from that of your grandfather. Many of the products sold in Finnish retail food outlets are there because customers have specifically requested them after first trying these foods while abroad. If these products sell, then they become part of the regular range. Some of them have been deliberately marketed and popularised by foreign companies operating in Finland, often with the idea of explicitly identifying with the youth culture of another country (Coca-cola is the prime example of this).

    Ricky will tell you that potatoes are native to the tropical regions of South America and were cultivated there and only there 5,000 years ago. Maize is similarly native to the Americas. What are these foods in their myriad processed forms doing in modern Finland? How did a hot beverage prepared from the Ethiopian bush plant jasminum arabicum laurifolia get to be the national drink in Finland?

    I think you are aware of all this at some level, which is why you shout and become abusive when I point it out.

    The fact is that national and regional food preferences are part of the diverse tapestry of national and regional culture, and that no individual dictates or can even forecast these preferences. My own bet is that the groundnut-butter stew (domoda) served by Gambians and other sub-Saharan Africans in Finland may well catch on more broadly in this market. I am surprised that nobody in the Gambian community has thought of packaging this product for commercial sale, as it is always well-received at Gambian special occasions but the average Finn does not have the patience or expertise that is required to prepare this dish well.

  6. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    Hobby Hall sells whatever shifts and otherwise chooses its market within the confines of a diversified corporate image and likely profit margins on various catalogue items.

    The current printed Hobby Hall catalogue devotes just one page to literature and DVDs, so this is obviously not an area in which this mail order company has raised its profile so far. This narrow range includes a handful of pop-violence DVDs (a Schwarzenegger collection and the Rambo box set). There is also the Madonna autobiography (which appeals specifically to those who consider her a role model) and a Vegan cookbook.

    The online catalogue of DVDs and books is rather larger, and includes a biography of Johnny Rotten (another role model). Wasn’t his group banned from playing in Finland in 1978? Then again so was Alice Cooper. Tell me cultural mores in Finland haven’t changed rapidly in the last 30 years.

  7. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    How does your mindset differ from that of the Borg alien collective?

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0]

  8. Tony Garcia

    “Look at UK, they HAD British culture. Today it is rapidly disappearing as immigrants push for their ways to be used instead of British.”

    Tiwaz, you are so right mate…

    Look at Ireland, some places here are completely transformed. You walk around and you wonder where you are.

    This is what Kevin Myers had to say some time ago…

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/huge-areas-of-britain-have-become-foreign-colonies-that-could-be-tomorrows-ireland-too-1589227.html

    Take a break and read it. It’s a glass of water in the middle of the desert, thrust me.

    Anyway…

    As I said before, all this multiculturalism mambo-jambo is more than just immigration, it’s about social reengineering. Bring Spanish engineers or Italians doctors to Finland isn’t just good enough. We “need” people with dark skin colour, funny beard, weird clouts, chanting crazy mantras, and if possible burning cars and raping the women. This people really build an multicultural society. They really “enrich” us.

    Although losing our cultural inheritance is already bad enough, the multicultural monstrosity is uglier than different faces on the street. UK today is officially the most violent country in Europe, also worse than South Africa and US. The same trend we can see in other multicultural places like Dublin, Limerick, Paris, Malmo, and the list goes on. The more multicultural the place is the more violent.

    Of course, you can just stick your head in the sand and deny the facts calling this “coincidence”. But the truth is out there not matter how much we try to run from it. And the reality is simple our children will pay this multicultural bill.

    What amazes me, also, is the massive double standard that multiculturalism is based on. Last year we had here an Africa day. It was a big event celebrating Africa cultural inheritance.

    But I wonder. Africans go to the streets shouting how proud they are of being Africans and their culture. This is highly applauded by the media, but if some Europeans go and do the same they are called nauseous nationalists white supremacists. Interesting isn’t?

    So they should be proud of their inheritance we should be ashamed of it? That’s multiculturalism…

    Today in Ireland people is already looking back and asking “what have we done?”. I challenge any multicultural do-gooder to have a walk at night in Limerick, or Longford. He/she will see what multiculturalism really means. It’s beautiful to talk about it behind your keyboard, but live it it’s a different story.

  9. Tony Garcia

    And here we go…

    First we fight for equality because we think this will make minorities happy. But they are still not happy. So discover the last thing they want is, in fact, be equal… Very well we go than to the next level…

    “THE SPIRIT OF ORWELL LIVES …
    Thanks to the Yooman Rites Act in Britain, everyone has rights — as long as you’re part of a favoured minority. And few minorities are as favoured as travellers, who have guaranteed that anyone who objects to them setting up an illegal camping site in a residential area is threatened with prosecution for being racist.
    The British government has always denied giving travellers preferential treatment, despite the abundant evidence to the contrary, but now Nu Liebour MP Shahid Malik has let the cat out of the bag.
    Speaking during a Parliamentary debate on the issue of travellers camping wherever they like and ruining the environment, Malik admitted that: “Fairness does not mean treating people equally; it means addressing the different needs of different people.
    So, there you have it from the horse’s ass’s mouth: “Fairness does not mean treating people equally.”

    By Ian O’Doherty

  10. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    Malik admitted that: “Fairness does not mean treating people equally; it means addressing the different needs of different people.
    So, there you have it from the horse’s ass’s mouth: “Fairness does not mean treating people equally.”

    Malik’s point is simply correct, and is a truism of ethics and politics. It’s the reason for arranging disabled access to buildings and separate specialist medical services for men and women.

    I suggest that you read Will Hutton on the four dimensions of fairness: http://preview.tinyurl.com/HuttonOnFairness and stop relying on shallow uneducated tabloid tripe.

  11. Tony Garcia

    The Dream…

    “Thus multiculturalism takes into account different templates of integration”

    The Reality…

    http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?level=4&id=14486

    “Furthermore, the only comparable case in this country was when a 29-day-old baby boy died in Waterford after a botched domestic circumcision was carried out with a razor blade. The man responsible was cleared of any wrongdoing after the judge directed the jury to apply different standards to the legislation because of cultural differences.”

  12. Tony Garcia

    And people still think minorities don’t play the race card…

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0825/1224253193640.html

    “THE COMPLAINANT claimed discrimination on the grounds of race and ethnic origin because her employer had kept her passport for much longer than was necessary to have a work permit processed, deducted travel expenses from her wages and refused to file tax documentation for her.”

    “large amount of conflicting evidence provided by both sides in the dispute.”

    “Nonetheless, the holding of a passport meant the complainant did not have access to her only form of identification, which would not have happened to an Irish or EU national, and this constituted discrimination.”

    The company did it wrong, alright , but how in the hell is this a race discrimination? What is has got to do with the person’s race?

    What if this had happened to me? Would just be a normal court case? Would I lose the benefits of having a dark skin colour?

    Race card at its best…

    • Enrique

      I am sorry Tony, but for me Halla-aho is a typical example of a person with racial hangups who has found popularity in such statements. He works on the same principle as other far-right parties in Europe, which cry “liberty of speech” in order to bash immigrants and would be the first to lock of this right if in power. The PS is a far-right party with a clear agenda on immigration hiding behind the cloak of “democracy.” They do not share our liberal democratic ideals. If you ask me, they are as much of a danger to our way of life and society as religious fanatics.

  13. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    It would help if you did a little bit of basic homework before drawing conclusions.

    “THE COMPLAINANT claimed discrimination on the grounds of race and ethnic origin because her employer had kept her passport for much longer than was necessary to have a work permit processed, deducted travel expenses from her wages and refused to file tax documentation for her.”

    “large amount of conflicting evidence provided by both sides in the dispute.”

    “Nonetheless, the holding of a passport meant the complainant did not have access to her only form of identification, which would not have happened to an Irish or EU national, and this constituted discrimination.”

    The company did it wrong, alright , but how in the hell is this a race discrimination? What is has got to do with the person’s race?

    Point (h) of subsection 2 of section 6 of the Employment Equality Act, 1998 defines the ground of race, for the purposes of the said Act, as the discriminatory grounds, as between any two persons, that they are of different race, colour, nationality or ethnic or national origins.

    It took me about 20 seconds to find this provision, but to help you out a little, you can read the text of the Act here.

    Your quote is part of a case study from the practice of the Republic of Ireland Equality Tribunal, which is referred to in the Act as the Office of the Director of Equality Investigations. Take a look at the functions of the Director as described in the Act and you will see that the compensation referred to was ordered under point (c) of subsection 1 of section 82 of the Act.

    It should be obvious that when setting out the grounds for an order for compensation under the Act, the Equality Tribunal will use the terminology of the Act.

    If you don’t like this terminology, then you should take the matter up with the government of the Irish Republic.

  14. intternetnetsi

    Problem with comparing multiculturalism with food is that you dont have to like a food and food in shelves of shop wont harm you or anyone else. And if enough people wont like it it just vanish from shops.

    Multiculturalism is like cauliflower you have to eat even you hate it and have allergic reaction from it. You dont want to be cauliflowerfobic and discrimate cabbages do you? You should tolerate and understand poor vegetable…

    Ps: That borg represents muslims, we arent forcing them to come with medieval beliefs and demands.

    • Enrique

      –Multiculturalism is like cauliflower you have to eat even you hate it and have allergic reaction from it.

      In society you have choices, Hannu. If you do not want to eat cauliflower then that is your prerogative. But in a multicultural society, policy would take into consideration those who do not like cauliflower.

      One of the biggest mistakes and misconceptions about the word racism is that you can apply it to other things. If you do no like meat then you are a “liha rasisti.” Racism derives from race – nothing more. The same application appears to be used with the suffix “phobic;” hence, cualiflowerphobic deriving from xenophobic.

  15. Tiwaz

    -“You ask (shout) who has determined what you eat. Look in your pantry and ask yourself the same question. Why isn’t your diet the same as the diet of your grandfather? On the other hand, why doesn’t it include casu marzu, escamoles, lutefisk, surströmming, huitlacoche, winkles or any insect species (ants, grasshoppers, sago worms, Bogong moths, witchety grubs)? Why is it more likely to include blood sausage, blood pancakes and mämmi? How about sylta?”

    You still do not grasp it do you?

    It does not matter what I eat, I eat what I eat because I want to. Because it fits my taste, because it fits my liking.

    ME. MY.

    Not YOURS. You are free to love crap you listed. I do not care, but you have no business coming and trying to tell that because it is so good in your opinion it should be found on my plate.

    Finland is extension of my pantry. Me and my kind, the Finns, are ones who decide what is accepted in Finland.

    It does not matter if you think your particular cultural tradition is greatest thing since sliced bread. If we Finns do not agree as people, and majority, you have no business demanding us to accept it.

    -“The fact is that national and regional food preferences are part of the diverse tapestry of national and regional culture, and that no individual dictates or can even forecast these preferences. My own bet is that the groundnut-butter stew (domoda) served by Gambians and other sub-Saharan Africans in Finland may well catch on more broadly in this market. I am surprised that nobody in the Gambian community has thought of packaging this product for commercial sale, as it is always well-received at Gambian special occasions but the average Finn does not have the patience or expertise that is required to prepare this dish well.”

    You again are being stupid, most likely on purpose.
    What we eat here usually has nothing to do with what is eaten abroad.

    Your example on potatoes. Yes, they are of foreign origin. But could you present part of Finnish culture potato conflicts with? Hmm?

    It doesn’t. So it is accepted and adopted to Finnish food culture AFTER BEING CHANGED TO FIT IT. How WE eat potatoes do not in many cases have anything to do with how it was eaten in South-America.

    But let’s see Chinese treat, chicken legs. And this means legs below the muscles. This goes flat out against Finnish tradition. Same with eating dogs, which is considered delicious somewhere. Here dogs are not food, period.

    Those foods go against our existing culture and thus will not be accepted to Finnish food culture.

    Same with Gambian food. Good if they have food which fits Finnish taste, but it does not mean everything Gambian fits Finnish taste or Finnish culture. Gambians have to accept that if they live in Finland they have to drop the parts which do not fit into Finnish culture.

    Are you even aware that ethnic restaurants change their recipes when in Finland? What is generally eaten as “Chinese” in Finland is nothing like what they eat in place called China.

    This is because Finnish culture expects different things than Chinese. So smart restaurant managers, which you clearly are not since you do not grasp such simple thing, adjust their recipe to more closely match local preferences.

    Those who do not, go out of business. It does not matter if something is greatest thing in your country if Finns do not agree.

    -“Hobby Hall sells whatever shifts and otherwise chooses its market within the confines of a diversified corporate image and likely profit margins on various catalogue items.”

    And again, they have to adjust their set to fit local norms and wants. You pretend that they can just keep adding crap to their catalogue no matter what. But here you yourself admit that it does not work.

    So, your example on how multiculturalism is so great fails even by your own account!

    You compared multiculturalism to Hobby Hall, saying you can always add stuff. I pointed out that it does not work. You can’t just add stuff if it does not fit stuff in the catalogue or local demand.

    Thus, my point was again proven. Multiculturalism does not work because cultures conflict with one another.

    Only way for two cultures to co-exist in same area is if one is dominant and other one submits to framework and limitations set by dominant one.

    As for Borg. I have no desire to see world made Finnish. I love to travel and see DIFFERENT cultures. I do not demand foreigners to change their country to fit me, but neither am I going to tolerate any foreigner coming to my home and telling me to change it to fit them.

    If you can’t handle living in Finland as it is, there are lots of countries to choose. If you want multicultural hellhole, I can recommend UK.
    If you want Gambian food and culture, I recommend going to Gambia.

  16. intternetnetsi

    “In society you have choices, Hannu. If you do not want to eat cauliflower then that is your prerogative. But in a multicultural society, policy would take into consideration those who do not like cauliflower. ”

    No i dont. If i refuse to eat then im sued for discrimination against cauliflowers. and if i dare to say i dont like cauliflower then thats hate speech..

    Do you really think i could say in your multicultural world that i hate walking trashbags and what they represnt? I feel sick even seeing those moomin bogeys. Or say that some cultures are clearly directly from stone age and shouldnt be appeased or tolerated?

    • Enrique

      –No i dont. If i refuse to eat then im sued for discrimination

      Didn’t I make myself clear? Cauliflower is NOT a race.

      –some cultures are clearly directly from stone age and shouldnt be appeased or tolerated.

      Stone age means living in caves… We all once lived in such places. Now we don’t any longer.

    • Enrique

      –Define far-right party.

      Here is a fast MODERN definition: A party that stresses differences between ethnic groups (xenophobia) and claims to be fighting for freedom of speech. A party that is alarmist who makes it the main point of its political agenda the savior of a threatened group. Many religious groups could fall in this definition.

      Hannu, it is the same old story: We are being threatened. Let’s bash their heads for the sake of freedom of speech. These types of parties like to use words like “real” and “people do not understand our reality” as excuses for their extremist views.
      If I were an extremist party in Finland, I would never be seen around swastikas and would never admit that I am in the far right of the political spectrum.

  17. Tiwaz

    -“I am sorry Tony, but for me Halla-aho is a typical example of a person with racial hangups who has found popularity in such statements. He works on the same principle as other far-right parties in Europe, which cry “liberty of speech” in order to bash immigrants and would be the first to lock of this right if in power. The PS is a far-right party with a clear agenda on immigration hiding behind the cloak of “democracy.” They do not share our liberal democratic ideals. If you ask me, they are as much of a danger to our way of life and society as religious fanatics.”

    But for example the article which he imitated is not in your opinion in any way wrong?

    One which basically declared Finns to be genetically programmed violent alcoholics…

    Great double standards.

    Reality is that we NEED Halla-Aho and his kind. To get the cat out of the bag and on the table. Because trying to pretend that certain immigrant groups are not source of huge problems if left to do their thing is clearly wrong.

    We see where letting them keep getting radical more and more leads.

    Look at UK and their latest terrorist attacks. Look at Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Theo van Gogh. Danish cartoonists. Look at Soreeh Hera.

    This is not something that took place in last century. These things took place less than decade ago.

    Double standards promoted by “progressive” people are disgusting. Making fun of Christianity is A-OK!
    Insulting Finns, or whomever are natives of western country in question, is witty and charming.

    But ANY criticism on immigrants is EVIL! It is RACISM! It must not be tolerated.

    There goes the tolerant multiculturalism down the drain.

    • Enrique

      –One which basically declared Finns to be genetically programmed violent alcoholics…

      This guy is something else. He is a LINGUIST as Alfred Rosenberg, the main ideologue of the Nazi race “theory,” was an architect. I haven´t seen any studies that show an “A” gene for alcoholism. There might be tendencies, but genetics do not determine your social behavior because society/culture play an important role in this respect.

      –Double standards promoted by “progressive” people are disgusting. Making fun of Christianity is A-OK!

      When you kick a minority in the teeth the punch is more devastating because they are a MINORITY. The majority controls the economic and political power. Are you suggesting the equal discrimination is ok? I think this is pretty funny.

  18. Tony Garcia

    “But in a multicultural society, policy would take into consideration those who do not like cauliflower.”

    That’s not a problem at all, however the problem stats when cauliflower eaters decided than you have to stop to eat beef because it’s offensive to them.

    Multiculturalism can, in theory, be a format that gives multiple choice, however I have already posted here examples of how some groups is using multiculturalism to actually limit the choices available.

    • Enrique

      –That’s not a problem at all, however the problem stats when cauliflower eaters decided than you have to stop to eat beef because it’s offensive to them.

      Good morning Tony. Set the cauliflower example aside and speak of racism. Racism is attributable to race — not a particular food you eat.

  19. Tony Garcia

    “and would be the first to lock of this right if in power. The PS is a far-right party with a clear agenda on immigration hiding behind the cloak of “democracy.” They do not share our liberal democratic ideals.”

    How do you know that? How do you know their hidden agenda? Did you read their secret documents, or had their office bugged?

    Or this is your impression based on you have seen?

    Timo have said many times that he’s not against immigration but against bad immigration, and so do I.

    Can you than say that you have suspicion and prejudice against them?

  20. Tony Garcia

    And speaking of devil…

    Suspicion and prejudice against Africans? Why? They don’t deserve that…

    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Foreign+Ministry+suspects+some+West+African+study+applicants+may+have+used+forged+certificates/1135248790665

    “More than half of the residence permit applications handled at the Finnish Embassy in Nigeria in June and July were seen to include forged documents.”

    “The Foreign Ministry says that forging certificates is so common in these African countries, that the ministry suspects that the primary motivation of the applicants is to get a residence permit for the Schengen countries.”

    At least if they are interested in go to another country inside EU, this in not too bad, however it’s quite possible, once they taste the Finnish dole, they will stick around.

  21. JusticeDemon

    More lies Tony?

    At least if they are interested in go to another country inside EU, this in not too bad, however it’s quite possible, once they taste the Finnish dole, they will stick around.

    1) Please explain the social security benefits of foreign students in Finland.

    2) How does the purchasing power of Finnish unemployment benefit (dole, assuming you used the term correctly) compare to that of other Member States?

    Will you now retract your remarks? Will you hell. Never let the truth get in the way of a bit of foreigner bashing, eh?

  22. Tony Garcia

    And there you go…

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/08/social_affairs_minister_is_finland_educating_too_many_foreigners_954083.html

    “Educating foreigners could come at the expense of educating Finnish youth, according to Minister of Social Affairs and Health Liisa Hyssälä. However the Education Minister refutes the claim.”

    I don’t want to engage in a discussion about who’s right or who’s wrong.

    My point is simple, before Timo’s election we wouldn’t see this kind of news, would we? And if anyone dares to say anything about it would promptly be labelled xenophobic.

    Now, however, the politicians seems more willing to look after the people whom, in fact, they work for.

    Was the PS election that bad after all? I don’t think so…

  23. Tony Garcia

    Good morning Amigo, and good morning to all…

    Sorry about the cauliflower example, I was using it metaphorically not gastronomically. In fact I hate cauliflower…

    Anyway my point is that once minorities rich their “right” to practice whatever they think they should, they start demanding other to do so.

    I gave already examples of this here. One is the new rule in the NHS Scotland with says that non-Muslims staff shouldn’t eat their lunch at their desks during Ramadan. So not only Muslims demand their right to celebrate Ramadan but also demand other to do likewise.

    But once fairness doesn’t mean equality, it may be ok then…

    • Enrique

      Tony, cauliflower isn´t my cup of tea either but there are certain ways you can prepare them and they are then quite tasty.

      –One is the new rule in the NHS Scotland with says that non-Muslims staff shouldn’t eat their lunch at their desks during Ramadan.

      These are some of the sitautions created. Probably a good solution would be to divide the cafeteria. If I were the manager I would speak to both parties and try to find a compromise. As you know from work, nothing can be resolved if there is not any good will and compromise.

  24. Tony Garcia

    BTW

    You have always waiving here the flag of equality, so what do you think about Malik’s comment?

    “fairness does not mean treating people equally.”

    Do you agree with that? Should equality than be a case by case?

    • Enrique

      Tony, “fairness does not mean treating people equally” is a bit of a loaded statement. Doesn´t being fair mean finding a compromise so people can feel as if they are treated equally?

      As you know, equality is an ideal we hold in society. In multiculturalism, groups are taken on a case by case basis as opposed to integration, remember? It means that when we set policy, it sometimes works for one group as opposed to others. Since equality is an ideal embedded in our constitution and laws, it is a general concept applied to everyone in society.

    • Enrique

      –Another case of YLE attempt to awaken anger and hatred?

      Come on, Tony, you are now being cynical. There is nothing about spreading hatred here.

  25. Tony Garcia

    Something I find interesting when reading news about racism in Finland. That is the fact that always an Arabic name is used as example. Every time someone talks about nationality we heard the words Somali, Iraq, Muslim, etc. And Every time they show a picture it has a dark skin.

    Why never an European, or American, or Japanese, or even Latinos? Aren’t they also immigrants? Can we draw the conclusion that racism is, in fact, against some group of immigrants, not all of them? At least the biggest part of it.

    If so… Once, Enrique, you told me that the percentage of African/Asians among immigrants in Finland is not really big. Is that right?

    Shouldn’t they use the words African immigrants, or Asian immigrants, or Muslims Immigrants, rather than only immigrants?

    Can we than say that when the media reports racism against immigrants, this is actually an exaggeration? Has these kind of news a bit of scaremongering in it? Are you following me?

    In my opinion if used the right words the news could show a more realistic picture about targets and quantity. Am I wrong?

    • Enrique

      –Shouldn’t they use the words African immigrants, or Asian immigrants, or Muslims Immigrants, rather than only immigrants?

      Why? What´s the point? Do we classify Finns publicy as Savo, Häme etc? Why, in your opinion, is this adjective (African etc) important? Why do we need such information?

      As you know, the foreign population in Finland is really small, about 2% of the total. In this group, Africans are an even smaller minority.

  26. Tony Garcia

    “Why do we need such information?”

    To quantify the problem. To see how big it’s in reality. I think I made this very clear. If from 100K immigrants 10% face hostility the problem has one size, if 70% the problem than has a totally different dimension. Doesn’t? You always talk about objective journalism, so there you go…

    Didn’t you ask how many illegal immigrants really pay to come here? Why do we need this information? I understood you are trying to do the same. Be objective and see what substance the report has.

    Now the only remaining thing to do is ask the usual question. Why it’s important to be critical and sceptical only when the news is against immigrants?

    • Enrique

      –To quantify the problem. To see how big it’s in reality. I think I made this very clear. If from 100K immigrants 10% face hostility the problem has one size, if 70% the problem than has a totally different dimension. Doesn’t? You always talk about objective journalism, so there you go…

      If you wanted to show that racism is only a minor problem in Finland, then I guess you you use that as an argument. The same question could be asked of women who get beaten by their husbands in this country. Even though it is a minority, it is still a cause for concern and should receive the attention of society.

  27. Tony Garcia

    “Come on, Tony, you are now being cynical. There is nothing about spreading hatred here.”

    No, I’m not. I’m being very honesty.

    I’m just trying to using the line you have when the news is against immigrants.

    Can’t this news create anger and hatred amongst immigrants against Finnish teachers?

    • Enrique

      –I’m just trying to using the line you have when the news is against immigrants. Can’t this news create anger and hatred amongst immigrants against Finnish teachers?

      I thought it was a pretty fair report: it gave the opinion of those who felt they were victims of racism at school and of the teachers. Both sides got their views without the writer editorializing the content. So, in this respect, it gets my stamp of approval.

      –Can’t this news create anger and hatred amongst immigrants against Finnish teachers?

      Tony, we live in Finland and the EU. It is perfectly fine to question, debate and even be cranky. These are your freedoms. If a person is really interested in his work and wants to improve it, why would he get angry at criticism whether right or wrong? If the teacher does, maybe he/she should look for another job.

    • Enrique

      –Neither is behaviour but still you call me phopic or racist.

      Hannu, I think you are not a lost case. But you would tell me that Halla-aho is not a racist and only defending our right of free speech, right?

      In first place, the person in the video exaggerates a bit. One of the things where he if off the track is that Europeans were never considered a “race” but ethnicities. In the US, blacks, Orientals and Hispanics are seen as “races.” Interesting, no? In my book, racism is a simple definition: you discriminate because of race, which is the key word.

  28. intternetnetsi

    “The same question could be asked of women who get beaten by their husbands in this country.”

    And what about men who get beaten by woman? (serious violence is about 40% woman 60% man)

    • Enrique

      –And what about men who get beaten by woman? (serious violence is about 40% woman 60% man)

      Well, if you want to use this example that is ok as well.

  29. Tiwaz

    -“When you kick a minority in the teeth the punch is more devastating because they are a MINORITY. The majority controls the economic and political power. Are you suggesting the equal discrimination is ok? I think this is pretty funny.”

    Kick is always a kick. It does not matter if you are weaker or stronger.

    I find it disgusting that someone would find it fine for weaker person to hurt stronger because they are weaker. It is just racism of weak over strong, where strong are forced to suffer.

    And it does not work! If minority, or the weak, keep spitting in the face of the strong, sooner or later there will be repercussions. And that is when minority will be hurt with all the gathered anger and resentment of majority.

    That is why minority must NEVER be held above majority, they must NEVER be considered “more equal” than rest.
    Because that leads to hatred and resentment of them. They must accept that they indeed are minority, and they must accept that this leads to situation where they have to yield their ways to ensure smooth functioning of society.

    -“As you know, equality is an ideal we hold in society. In multiculturalism, groups are taken on a case by case basis as opposed to integration, remember? It means that when we set policy, it sometimes works for one group as opposed to others. Since equality is an ideal embedded in our constitution and laws, it is a general concept applied to everyone in society.”

    This is precisely why multiculturalism will never work!

    Cultures do not fit together like puzzle pieces. They will conflict. And when they conflict, one side must yield their position or there will be battle to FORCE one side to yield.

    Saying “there will be compromise” is not going to work. Why should we Finns compromise on our way of life and culture in OUR ancestral home for some foreigners who are free to fuck off if they do not like it here?

    This is precisely what I have tried to say. Idea that Finns must compromise and appease immigrants is flat out idiotic. It will NEVER lead to any magical happyland. It will make Finns increasingly angry as we lose our culture and our country. And that will lead to anger towards immigrants who are trying to force us to lose our culture and country.

    • Enrique

      –I find it disgusting that someone would find it fine for weaker person to hurt stronger because they are weaker. It is just racism of weak over strong, where strong are forced to suffer.

      Did I say that? I said that the blow from the dominant culture is more devasating. I am against violence (physical and psychological) and do not encourage any group to use this form of manipulation.

      –Cultures do not fit together like puzzle pieces. They will conflict.

      Here is where we differ in opinion. I believe that cultures have always mixed and learned from each other sometimes in a positive and negative light. Cultures create myths about themselves, which is nothing more than copying other cultures without mentioning the source (cultural plagiarism?:) ).

    • Enrique

      –I find it disgusting that someone would find it fine for weaker person to hurt stronger because they are weaker. It is just racism of weak over strong, where strong are forced to suffer.

      Tiwaz, you are just like an tank division. You try feverishly to find a breakthrough and then surround and me cut off. Please do not twist what I say. I think — usually — my ideas are pretty clear and easy to comprehend.

      –This is precisely what I have tried to say. Idea that Finns must compromise and appease immigrants is flat out idiotic.

      You have a very paternalistic and antiquated way of looking at our relationship with other cultures. This type of a world order that you speak of exists in countries where there are human rights abuses.

  30. Tiwaz

    -“Did I say that? I said that the blow from the dominant culture is more devasating. I am against violence (physical and psychological) and do not encourage any group to use this form of manipulation.”

    You did imply that. You did imply with your message that racism committed by minority against majority is “lesser evil” and thus more acceptable.

    I find both completely, 100% unacceptable. And minority racism extremely stupid for minorities themselves.

    -“Here is where we differ in opinion. I believe that cultures have always mixed and learned from each other sometimes in a positive and negative light. Cultures create myths about themselves, which is nothing more than copying other cultures without mentioning the source (cultural plagiarism?:) ).”

    Problem is, your belief is not grounded in reality.

    Look at history, when two completely different cultures meet sooner or later they are trading blows with one another. And when one has forced other to subjugate, THEN they start forcing change in local culture.

    You also fail to understand fact that in old times, cultures never interacted with cultures coming from very far away. Chinese never had contact with German culture. Few traders like Marco Polo do not equal cultural mixing and learning.

    Cultures interacted with nearby cultures which already were very similar to them. Thus influences were possible to transfer because they had common values and traditions. There simply was less conflict.

    That is totally different from modern day where you take guy from Somalia or Saudi-Arabia and toss them into modern European culture.

    There is very little to no common ground required for interaction of two cultures.

    And you really have to get over your illusion that culture is “myth”. Culture is huge part of our identity. Your identity is built upon culture in which your parents raised you. They could not raise you “cultureless” any more than they could stop breathing.

  31. Tony Garcia

    “…why would he get angry at criticism whether right or wrong?”

    I didn’t say the teachers would get angry, but the immigrants with them. I apologise for not have built the phase correctly.

    “If you wanted to show that racism is only a minor problem in Finland, then I guess you you use that as an argument.”

    Why necessarily a minor problem? Since when quantifying a problem makes it automatic small? It only does when the quantity is, in fact, small. Nevertheless the truth is the truth and the only ones that fears it are those who are trying to manipulating it.

    Anyway my point with all of this was to try to analyse this news about racism using the same parameters you always use when analysing news against immigrants. What appears to me is that this is not possible, we should have two set of parameters. One for news against immigrants and other for pro immigrants.

    “Everyone equal, but some more equal than others”

    Good morning George…

    • Enrique

      –Why necessarily a minor problem? Since when quantifying a problem makes it automatic small? It only does when the quantity is, in fact, small. Nevertheless the truth is the truth and the only ones that fears it are those who are trying to manipulating it.

      Tony, if we take into account that there is about 20% unemployment in Finland, it is also not just one particular group but a general problem.

    • Enrique

      –One for news against immigrants and other for pro immigrants.

      I disagree and I am sorryif that is the impression you have given. There are many journalists that have ethics and try to give both sides their opinions WITHOUT sticking their opinions (editorializing) in the story. The YLE story was a good one in my opinion. If I want to read an editorial, I should know that I am reading one — not a story that looks like a story but is, in fact, an opinionated editorial. Tony, if you want to be opinionated and bring forth your opinions, then the editorial or column would be a good place. Readers do this by writing a letter to the editor.

  32. Tony Garcia

    Dear Migrant Tales readers.

    Sometimes we spend a considerably amount of time analyzing how much damage these multicultural policies are causing to our beloved land, so we forget to look outside. When we do, we see that these policies are also causing a lot of damage to our image abroad.

    Today we are a laughing stock in the US.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2324751/posts

    “Europe’s Dark Hour: Appeasing Radical Islam“

    “Powerlessness is not too harsh a word. Europe may still pride itself on its commitment to human rights, but a cold look at the evidence shows that in recent years EU countries have been more determined to please the Islamic world – even rogue-states like Libya – than stand up for those very rights it claims to hold dear. Whether cynical business interests are to blame, or whether the flaw lies in the burgeoning fear of militant Islam, is immaterial. At the end of the day, Europe has lost its nerve.”

    PS. Yes FreeRepublic is a conservative, and very big, group.
    PPS. Yes I’m a conservative.
    PPPS. Yes I value their opinions very much.

    • Enrique

      —Today we are a laughing stock in the US.

      Tony, you know how I will answer the article, which is an opinion-piece. I respect your thoughts although I disagree with this type of Muslim bashing.

      The column speaks of rogue states such as Libya. Is Libya any longer officially a rogue state? I think it has been readmitted into the international community after it gave up its nuclear program and terrorism.

    • Enrique

      –That’s a good news, isn’t?

      Yes, very good, indeed.

      Tony, I want to ask you a question about Brazilian history. Maybe you can give me an answer. Why is that the former Spanish colonis in South America had to fight to get their independence from Spain and then started to fight among themselves? A lot of blood has gone under the bridge. Why is it that Brazil never had these problems? Remember when Pedro I told his father “give me liberty or death” and his father allowed Brazil to become a kingdom? There was no bloodshed. The same thing happened when Pedro II was forced to leave the country in 1889, when Brazil became a republic. Your history appears less violent than what South American Spanish speaking countries underwent. Do you have an explanation for this?

  33. Tiwaz

    -“Tiwaz, you are just like a tank division. You try feverishly to find a breakthrough and then surround and cut me off. Please do not twist what I say. I think — usually — my ideas are pretty clear and easy to comprehend.”

    Yes, it is easy to comprehend. You say it is not as bad if minority is racist. Thus, it is lesser evil, thus it is more acceptable.

    You cannot in any way say that one is not as bad as another and NOT imply that it is not more acceptable.

    -“You have a very paternalistic and antiquated way of looking at our relationship with other cultures. This type of a world order that you speak of exists in countries where there are human rights abuses.”

    What human rights abuses exist for example in Japan?
    None! And indeed, their attitude is precisely one I have described. And not only that, but they have very small amount of problems brought by unintegrating immigrants.

    Relationship with cultures must not be one where host society must compromise it’s values in order to appease immigrants. Immigrant who cannot accept values of country they move into are perfectly free to leave.

    Again, you show that Finland is not your native home with your attitude. You have no connection with land, it’s history and it’s culture. So it is hardly a surprise that to you their fate is irrelevant.

    I am Finn. To me this is land, it’s culture and society are intimate part of my identity. Your expectation that I must compromise my identity in my home so that some immigrant could be more “at home” here is very repulsive.

    Remember, when you are guest in someones house, you respect THEIR way of life instead of barging in and demanding that things must be done your way. Doing so is sign of bad guest who is not wanted anywhere.

  34. intternetnetsi

    Seems odd that you whine about “suomettuminen” time and still want to restrict speak.
    Halla-aho attacks doublespeak what press and politicians do with examples, he tells what real “enrichment” is.

    Your far right is same as “enemy of nation” what explained why communism didnt work, someone sabotaged it like racists now sabotage multiculturalism.

    Halla-aho himself have warned that real far right will rise and that isnt nice if things go like now.

    From Demografisista asioista ja muusta

    “Monikultturismin fanaattisimmat propagoijat haluaisin haastaa vastaamaan edellä esitettyihin väitteisiin ja pohdintoihin. Kehityskulku on todellinen. Se koskettaa meistä jokaista ja ennen kaikkea lapsiamme ja näiden lapsia. Ei vastaukseksi kelpaa se, että asioista puhuminen antaisi polttoainetta kaikenlaisille äärioikeistolaisille. Kuten Ayaan Hirsi Ali huomauttaa, Guantánamosta puhuminen koettiin tarpeelliseksi, vaikka se antoi uutta puhtia kaikenlaisille ääri-islamistisille vihanlietsojille. Holokaustista puhuminenkin koetaan tarpeelliseksi, vaikka se on saanut kokonaiset sukupolvet länsieurooppalaisia pitämään kaikkia saksalaisia epäilyttävinä koppalakkikaasuttajina. Kyllähän tosiasioista on voitava puhua, vaikka joku käyttäisi niitä kyseenalaisiin tarkoituksiin. Ei voi olla niin, että liberaalin, demokraattisen ja yksilön vapauksiin uskovan yhteiskunnan on annettava tuhoutua, ettei vain loukattaisi ketään.”

    From Keskustelua meillä ja naapurissa, osa 4.

    “On tietysti täydellisen epäoleellista, onko pelkoon ja syytöksiin aihetta. Elsie Sjöstedt ja Bo Andersson ilmaisevat aika kiteytetysti, mikä se ongelma on: “Täällä on tultu sietokyvyn rajalle. Ihmiset eivät enää yksinkertaisesti jaksa sitä, että ongelmille ei tehdä mitään. Kyse on laista ja järjestyksestä. Ei ihmisten etnisestä taustasta.” Ei ihmisiä pääsääntöisesti kiinnosta, minkä värisiä muut ovat tai mihin jumalaan he uskovat. He ovat kiinnostuneita turvallisuudestaan. Jos heidän turvallisuudellaan pyyhitään ahteria, ettei vain loukattaisi kenenkään tunteita, heillä ei ole muuta vaihtoehtoa kuin äänestää äärioikeistoa. Äärioikeiston kasvu olisi erittäin helppo pysäyttää. Siihen riittäisi, että poliittinen eliitti itse lakkaisi tuijottamasta rikollisten ja uhrien ihonväriä ja suhtautuisi asioihin asioina. Sosiologi Aje Carlbomin mukaan muslimien enklavisaatio, keskittyminen Malmön Rosengårdin kaltaisiin gettoihin, tarjoaa hedelmällisen maaperän islamismin nousulle. “Suvaitsevaisen ilmapiirin vuoksi ruotsalainen yhteiskunta ei ymmärrä, mitä on tapahtumassa.””

    Somehow now is situation where danish granmas feel safe next to hells angels…

    • Enrique

      –Your far right is same as “enemy of nation” what explained why communism didnt work, someone sabotaged it like racists now sabotage multiculturalism.

      You are way off track relating multiculturalism with communism and that the “racists” are fighting to restore “freedom.” This is what we call in English phony baloney.

      –Halla-aho himself have warned that real far right will rise and that isnt nice if things go like now.

      Yes, right. I am SO afraid. “God” has spoken – the man who will save us from ourselves. Give me a break, Hannu. I thought you had a brain on your shoulder. This guy is a political opportunist.

  35. intternetnetsi

    Political oppoturnist? Guy who blogged years before decided to go in politics and said that he dont like that but someone has to do it? Guy who takes lot of shit from liberals like you? You can challenge him in hommaforum.org i dare you. Lets see how long you last.

    And real racists are just jerks, what you blame to be racists are just normal people. See difference?

    You couldnt create homo sovieticus and you cant create homo multiculturalismus…

    Human traits cant be undone, its nice dream but unrealistic.

    And remember what human rights say about free speak. Or do you forget it because it doesnt fit in your thoughts?

    Also remember what voltaire said about free speak.

    • Enrique

      –And real racists are just jerks, what you blame to be racists are just normal people.

      A “normal” person with a doctorate degree does not call a whole religion “pedophilia” because minors are forcibly wed to adults. Although I am against this type of marriages, they exist in different cultures. If I used your logic, I could claim that all Finns are a bunch of alcoholics because they are visibly drunk on weekends. Or I could claim that USAmericans are murderers because of what they did in Vietnam and Iraq… The worst “cultural management” is this type: you insult another culture and then ask them to be like you (the superior benchmark culture). And on top of this to claim that you do not have ethnic hangups is the supreme icing on the prejudice cake.
      Stay away from people like that Hannu. They are hazardous to your mind and soul. All they are professing is a violent path that will end up in ruin.

  36. Tony Garcia

    Hola Enrique,

    Sorry I didn’t answer your question before but I’m just about to join some of my work mates who have been laid off, so my head was a bit full.

    I think I’ll have the chance to test my theory that Finland doesn’t discriminate as much as people talk. I’ll keep you updated about that.

    Anyway, history hasn’t been my best friend in school. My mind, since young, was more for math, however the problem about the Brazilian history taught in schools are the books. They are full of gallant, heroic, selfless people who would happily give their lives to help others. BS of course.

    But 3 very strong forces were (and still are) present during the colonization, empire and beginning of republic: Trade, England and Freemasonry.

    England “helped” us to negotiate a “fair” compensation to be paid to Portugal after the independency. Money that they happily lent to us. Also the Masonic lodge in Rio had more power than the imperial palace. All the major decision used to come from the lodge instead of the palace.

    That’s as far as my knowledge goes, without using the books fairytale.

    You should watch a movie called “Carlota Joaquina Princesa do Brasil” from Carla Camurati (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109380/). A very nice comedy, but very historically accurate, about the time the royal family moved from Portugal to Brazil.

    • Enrique

      Thank you for responding to my question. I think it is an interesting question and why independence and converting Brazil into a republic was almost painless compared with the Spanish speaking countries that ended up in long and bloody civil wars after independence.

  37. Tony Garcia

    I saw a interesting news this morning…

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/09/border_guard_probes_restaurants_hiring_of_immigrants_974121.html

    “The restaurant owners are suspected of arranging cheap labour for themselves in this manner over a period of several years. The restaurants in question are foreign-owned…”

    So I can’t help but wonder…

    Besides the criminal face of this news (illegal immigrants + grey economy) I see a kind of hidden face as well.

    Due language barrier I would suspect that the owners are bring people from their own country, or who can speak their language. If so, they are employing people without give a fair chance to others (Finns and foreigners) living in Finland. Can we than call it discrimination?

    Also they have been in Finland for years. As we learned in the blog, discrimination is well spread in there, so there is a huge possibility they have faced discrimination themselves. Do I make sense?

    That being said once again we see victims becoming perpetrators as soon as they have a change, don’t we?

    I have already shown here victims of “racism” who are very much racists, victims of “discrimination” who happily discriminate, victims of “inequality” who insist in be different.

    And we suppose to listen to these people complaints. Really?

    Of course in a multicultural society we don’t need to wait much to have someone “explain” this and urging us to “understand” and “respect” their cultural diversity.

    But honestly…

    • Enrique

      –If so, they are employing people without give a fair chance to others (Finns and foreigners) living in Finland. Can we than call it discrimination?
      I believe an appropriate term would be abuse and exploitation.

      –That being said once again we see victims becoming perpetrators as soon as they have a change, don’t we?
      You bring forth an interesting question, Tony. Since there is little work, stiff competition and laxed regulation, it may encourage some to take advantage of the situation. It shows that humans are really the same in each culture.

      –Of course in a multicultural society we don’t need to wait much to have someone “explain” this and urging us to “understand” and “respect” their cultural diversity.

      I think that in any type of democratic society we should make the effort to “understand” and “respect” others or otherness. Multiculturalism aims to take into account that groups special needs in order to integrate into society. It is different from integration (one solution fits all) and assimilation, which is one-way integration.

  38. intternetnetsi

    “A “normal” person with a doctorate degree does not call a whole religion “pedophilia” because minors are forcibly wed to adults.”

    There is exactly what he wrote, do you disagree?

    “Next I intend to throw Mika a bait:

    Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile and islam revers pedophilia as a religion. Islam is a religion of pedophilia. Pedophilia is Allah’s will.

    Are these statements illegal? They certainly insult muslim’s religious feelings. Let’s approach the issue logically:

    As a 50 year-old man Muhammad was engaged to six or seven year old Aisha. Their marriage was “consummated” when Aisha was nine years old. It is possible to think that they were living in another age and Muhammad’s deeds must not be judged according to today’s standards, but as we have learned during the last few years, schoolbooks from the 50’s were racist when they spoke about ”negroes” (even if ”negro” was not a racist term at the time by anybody’s standards), it’s equally justified to call a child rapist who lived 1400 years ago a child rapist .´

    What has to be done so that the bolded statements were not true? You must insist that

    a) … Quran is not literally true (i.e Muhammad did not have sexual relations with a nine year old girl). This will not do, since according to Islamic doctrine and muslims’ opinion Quran is a literal word of Allah. Consummation and Aisha’s age cannot be denied without insulting muslims.

    b) …Muhammad’s actions were not always acceptable. This will not do either, since according to muslims (and Tampere district court) criticizing Muhammad is the same as criticizing Allah and therefore blasphemy. The penalty is death. Muslim’s believe that Muhammad’s actions were the will of Allah. Because Muhammad had sexual relations with a child, that was Allah’s will as well.

    As we see, all the argumentative ways to disprove the bolded statements have been theologically exhausted. The fact that Muhammad was a pedophile and Allah supported pedophilia can only be denied either by denying the literal truthfulness of Quran or Muhammad’s status as a messenger of Allah whose actions are according to the will of Allah.

    Therefore I repeat my claim:

    Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile and islam revers pedophilia as a religion. Islam is a religion of pedophilia. Pedophilia is Allah’s will. “

    • Enrique

      –Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile and islam revers pedophilia as a religion. Islam is a religion of pedophilia. Pedophilia is Allah’s will.

      One thing you cannot do is use such an example and call it pedophilia. It is totally ludicrous. I have told you that in my culture these practices are not accepted. However, let’s use the same twisted logic as you… Tens of thousands of years ago life expectancy was probably 30-40 years. This meant that females had to get married under the age of 18. Does it mean that all “cave men” were pedophiles?! And, in Catholic cultures, girls celebrate their 15th birthday as an initiation into womanhood and marriage. I am certain that in Latin countries there are many minors who got pregnant, got married under 18 etc. Isn’t the Catholic religion supporting pedophilia? That is why your statement is totally off the track.
      What you are doing with these examples is giving your outside interpretation of them.

    • Enrique

      –Well you again dont understand how muslims “religion” work and dont read what is written.

      What is the source? Is it some far-right organization into Muslim-bashing? Hannu, it is funny but your comment says so much about how autocratic systems work. For one, they always believe that others are dumb; they don’t understand the “real” situation. The other problem is that they take the law in their hands. When they do this, they throw away your civil liberties in the name of “liberty.” Can’t you see how you are being used by these groups that spread hatred?

  39. intternetnetsi

    “What is the source?”

    Quran and high muslim “priests”.
    One who was guests in presidents independence day party said “11 is good age to marry”.
    I dont need to “spread hatred” because they do it without any help.

    “The other problem is that they take the law in their hands.”

    Yes muslims tend to do that.

  40. Tony Garcia

    “Can’t you see how you are being used by these groups that spread hatred?”

    Really? Oh… I see…

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211011/Muslim-community-leader-arrested-making-BNP-story.html

    “Muslim community leader arrested for ‘making up BNP kidnap story’”

    “A Muslim community leader who claimed he was kidnapped from his home at knifepoint and dumped in woodland after a BNP hate campaign has been arrested for perverting the course of justice… Mr Ramjanally had also alleged that his Loughton home was firebombed in July and that he had received hate mail threatening his family.”

    “Recalling the supposed abduction, he said: “I have got the whole UK Muslim community behind me now. I am not just on my own.”

    I wonder, if this community leader can fake a kidnapping story just to frame the ones who oppose him, what else him and his flock can do? Couple of racism/discrimination claims perhaps?

    The question is… Will the police/court go to the bottom of this? Probably not, but, well… we don’t want to harm community cohesion. Do we?

  41. Tiwaz

    -“I think that in any type of democratic society we should make the effort to “understand” and “respect” others or otherness. Multiculturalism aims to take into account that groups special needs in order to integrate into society. It is different from integration (one solution fits all) and assimilation, which is one-way integration.”

    No, no and no.

    We can understand other cultures, but we are under no obligation to respect them in OUR country. Nor are other societies required to respect my cultural norms when I visit their country.

    Specially true this is when you speak of “special needs”. There can be no compromise on “special needs” which violate values, principles and limitations set by OUR culture in OUR country.

    None, never. If immigrant cannot accept that, they are free not to come here or leave.

    Your desire for “respect” and “special needs” is very foolish. It is counterproductive for society to permit such slippery slope to exist. First they demand this “special need”, then second, then third.

    Like, again we find ourselves dragging Muslims to this but reality is that they are some of the worst groups of immigrants in terms of fitting in, Muslim demands for having their own Sharia courts established.

    For example UK has already authorized this. Now it is “voluntary” to accept it’s jurisdiction, but one can imagine what pressure there is for it.

    Or demands by Muslims that their female nurses must not be required to roll up their sleeves, which is essential for HYGIENE in hospital. Their religious demands overruling safety and health of patients!

    Or Finland where Muslim clerics “marry” teens. And Imam stating how it is better than “dating”.

    These “special needs” are against very core principles of our society. Against the equality of everyone in society.

    When these “special needs” are demanded, and given, it only enrages the native population further. Bringing closer the day when last drop falls and things get ugly.

    Again, Enrique, look at history. How societies where such things take place have gone up in flames and bloodshed. Do you want this to take place in Finland and Europe?

    I do not worry all that much about us Finns should nothing be done to stop it. We are the majority, will be majority for predictable future (I doubt politicians have their way of bringing millions of immigrants here, it would only hasten the downfall of multicultural ideal and bring bloodshed sooner). We are not the natives of Americas facing people with better guns and better way of war.

    It will be the immigrants who will suffer, so it is in my view rather immoral to encourage them to try to fracture the society with ideals of multiculturalism which have been proven by history of this world to be failures.

    Only situation where multicultural society can exist is if it’s constituent parts are not much in contact or if society is dominated by single dictatorial power.

    In modern liberal society different groups keep rubbing against one another at such pace that conflict will spark sooner or later.

    • Enrique

      –We can understand other cultures, but we are under no obligation to respect them in OUR country. Nor are other societies required to respect my cultural norms when I visit their country.

      Tell me, Tiwaz, what makes this YOUR country?

  42. Tony Garcia

    “I believe an appropriate term would be abuse and exploitation”

    Abuse was against the illegal’s. They didn’t give the Finns an opportunity to apply for the job. This is discrimination, sorry but there really is no way to escape from it.

    “I think that in any type of democratic society we should make the effort to “understand” and “respect” others or otherness”

    Really? Well that’s a good news. So are we now understanding and respecting the attitude Finns have towards some immigrants?

  43. intternetnetsi

    “Tell me, Tiwaz, what makes this YOUR country?”

    Im not tiwaz but its clear what makes this his country. Clear cultural habits with only minor rebels agaisnt it.
    Lets say i meet tiwaz, we both know how to behave and behave like needed. No conflickt, no misunderstanding, no fight.
    We can disagree but still we understand eachother.

    I can say this freely because i know my family comes atleast from 1700s like tiwaz family and probably from long before that.
    If i or tiwaz cant tell what finnish is then who can?

  44. Tiwaz

    Well, it was pretty much told above what makes this my country.

    It is where I was born and raised, where my parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents and so forth were born and raised. To be Finns.

    Yes, it was not independent Finland for large part of that time, but it was always Finland. And people who lived in it were by and large Finns, and lived by tradition of Finnish culture.

    Like I have said Enrique, I love to travel. But when I leave Finland and step off the plane, boat or whatever at my destination. I always know that I am not at home. Little things without taking into account the language always remind how things are different. I have to be extra careful to be polite with locals.

    It is not so in Finland. Here what comes for me naturally is shared by huge majority of people who walk to me on the street.

    • Enrique

      –It is where I was born and raised, where my parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents and so forth were born and raised. To be Finns.

      Tiwaz, I am sorry but you had nothing to say about where you were born. It just happened without your mother consulting you. These are nationalistic throughts that you use to deprive others of Finland being their home. I think it is much simpler: if you feel Finland as your home then it must be. Maybe you should try to expand your feeling of home to include other places.

      Please don’t mistake debate with politeness. Both are different.

  45. Tiwaz

    -“Tiwaz, I am sorry but you had nothing to say about where you were born. It just happened without your mother consulting you. These are nationalistic throughts that you use to deprive others of Finland being their home. I think it is much simpler: if you feel Finland as your home then it must be. Maybe you should try to expand your feeling of home to include other places.”

    So?

    Why the hell would I CARE? Why should I have say on where I was born?

    You have this delusion that nothing matters. Reality is that home and place of birth matters. It matters to animals as well as humans. Some species travel thousands of kilometers to return to their place of birth.

    People want to be buried in the soil of their home.
    If you do not have that connection to some place it is your loss. I do not need to choose where I am born to have that connection. It comes with that birth and with that childhood.

    If you think Finland is your home, you are free to do so. It is one of the perks of having this FINNISH society which grants us all so much freedom.

    But never, for one minute, presume that you have as strong connection to this land as I have. From your words we can deduct that to you Finland is “just like any other place”. You are one of those rootless ones who do not know what home means.

    To me it is not “just like any other place”. It is where my history and history of my family are rooted.

    I cannot make other places to be “my home”. Because they are not. They do not have the things I have in Finland. And things are damn good in Finland compared to most of the world.

    UK? That place where you “felt at home”? I remember shop owner who had boxcutter in his reach at all times as method of self defense.

    Trash along the driveways.
    Areas which stank to high heavens like violence and trouble that even tourist knew to avoid them.

    I do not want such place to be my home. So I oppose your desire to import such failed system to my home.

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