Two questionable eras in Europe with the same message

by , under All categories, Enrique

Two posters (apologies for the offensive content) from different eras: One that is anti-semitic from Germany in 1940* and the other from a referendum in Switzerland in 2009 on a ban of building minarets on mosques.  Even though these posters were printed in different periods, the message is the same: barbarization of a group.

*The first source I used claimed the film was released in 1937. It was released in 1940. If you wish to see this horrible film, click here. Note the claims that the German narrator makes: “Jews are lazy, criminals and incompatible with our Aryan way of life.”  Sounds familiar, no?

If you still disagree, go to about 18 minutes of the film and pay close attention to these claims:

The parasite nation of Judah is responsible for a large part of international crime.

In 1932 the Jews, who made up only 1% of the world’s population, accounted for 34% of the world’s dope peddlers, 46% of robberies, 47% of crooked games of chance, 82% of international crime organizations, and 98% of dealers of prostitution. The most common expressions from the jargon of international gangsters and criminals… stem from Hebrew and Yiddish words.

At the end of the film the narrators affirms:  Keeping one’s race pure is one of the legacies of the National Socialist movement leaves to the German nation forever. In the spirit the unified German people march on into the future.


    • Enrique

      I wanted to fit a poster about the Roma as well. Think hard, read your history and look at what happened. Look at your arguments today: Keep the Muslims out of Europe, these people are etc… It’s the same thing but under a different guise. The Nazis used the same tactics to discredit the Jews. They are “sub-humans, they are incompatible etc”… A bit similar to some arguments I have been hearing on this blog.

  1. JusticeDemon

    Dehumanising one or more minority population groups is always the first stage in the fascist programme. This is naturally easier among people who are not directly acquainted with any member of the minority group, but even those who have some personal contact or even friends in the minority can often convince themselves that their acquaintances are somehow exceptional individuals. We have a few regular contributors below the line in this blog who are pleased to denigrate entire minorities based on no personal acquaintance whatsoever.

    • Enrique

      I agree with JusticeDemon: dehumanizing a group is just a pretext to water down civil rights. This was a wonderful pretext that military regimes in Latin America used. They claimed that since they were “fighting evil communism” this gave them the right to remain in power, torture suspects and basically do what they pleased. This is the great danger of allowing xenophobia get the best of you. In the end it will destroy you. It will give you at the best a questionable Pyrrhic victory.

  2. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘ban on building minarets and mosques.’

    Interesting, Enrique I’ll let one of your followers (JusticeDemon, xyz) to correct the serious error in this statement if they are brave enough.

    The ban is a clear example that Muslims cannot follow the rules unless it suits them even if it is written into the Swiss constitution. Due to Switzerland’s unique form of direct democracy a constitutional amendment banning the construction of new ……. was approved by 57.5% of the participating voters.

    As democracy is not a part of Islamic culture this is the reason why they reject the referendum. Even a mock …… was erected over an industrial storage facility in Bussigny, showing what respect Muslims have for a democratic society.

    In a peaceful democratic society ALL citizens must follow the law otherwise society will fall in lawlessness and chaos witnessed in other parts of the world. Muslims as shown in Switzerland will only do that if they agree with EVERYTHING.

    I’ll let you Enrique fill in the gaps when you have realised your error.

  3. Klay_Immigrant

    Another fact Enrique you forgot or overlooked was that a number of municipalities in Switzerland refused to show that poster you have shown.

    Muslims are sending the wrong message, protest about an issue they disagree with even tho it has been proved via a referendum that the majority of the total population agree with it. That’s the whole point and pillar of democracy that what the majority wants then that’s what they will get, otherwise the whole process of elections will fall apart.

    • Enrique

      –Muslims are sending the wrong message, protest about an issue they disagree with even tho it has been proved via a referendum that the majority of the total population agree with it.

      The Jews must have sent the same “wrong message” you spoke of back in the 1930s. You are very young and have not lived under a dictatorship to comprehend how your rights are eroded. Some countries in Europe deal better with Otherness and racism than others. Why aren’t these types of referendums taking place in England? Why has xenophobia gripped Denmark and not Canada where there are millions of immigrants. The answer is simple: There is an undercurrent of racism that is ready to rise to the surface when the conditions are right. They are societies (like the Netherlands) that were on the surface tolerant but in fact have a lot of racism issues to deal with.

      Switzerland? What did their “democratic way of life” say about the atrocties going on in Nazi Germany and all that gold from Jewish concentration camp victims that ended in their banks’ vaults? Switzerland is a democratic country if you are white but if you are not white there are some major issues.

  4. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Have you considered the advantages of expropriating everyone in London for the benefit of the majority living elsewhere? If everyone votes to eat YOU for breakfast, would you consider this a democratic decision that you should respect?

    Your reading list begins with John Stuart Mill: On Liberty Then ask yourself if there can be any such thing as an unjust law, and what your duty should be when you encounter one.

  5. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Have you considered the advantages of expropriating everyone in London for the benefit of the majority living elsewhere? If everyone votes to eat YOU for breakfast, would you consider this a democratic decision that you should respect?’

    Don’t make me laugh, when you have come back to Earth conjure up some realistic and possible comparisons then I will give an appropiate response. If you were the opposition leader in the Swiss government and used these examples, I’m sure the media and your fellow MPs would think you’d taken something.

    -‘Then ask yourself if there can be any such thing as an unjust law,’

    So JusticeDemon if you don’t agree with a certain law then it must be an unjust law, shows how a undemocratic person you really are, more like a dictator, my way or the highway. You’d fit in nicely into the Iranian government.

  6. Tony Garcia

    First, thanks for correcting the mistake on your article. I’m sure adding the mosque was just a typo.

    Second, so, in your opinion, Muslims in Europe today are facing the same persecution that Jews did during Nazi Germany. Interesting… Care to share with us where the new Auschwitz is being built?

  7. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Your contribution at October 14, 2010 at 10:15 pm (second paragraph) fetishises democracy to the point of inconsistency. The counterexamples are intended to call your attention to this, and I referred you to John Stuart Mill for a mature analysis of this point in the philosophy of government. Of course, if you have read On Liberty and refuted its main contention, then I stand corrected, but then perhaps you would care to share your refutation with the rest of the world.

    Answer the question: can there be an unjust law?

    • Enrique

      –“This new hatred comes from Muslim immigrants. The Jewish people are afraid now.”

      I think Jews are worried about the rise of the far-right in Europe. I posted a link by an Israeli paper about how worried they were about the Sweden Democrats.

    • Enrique

      I wrote this string after the election in Sweden:

      Here is part of an article in Haaretz.com of Israel. It is interesting that even if the Sweden Democrats are showing their Islamophobic side, the Jewish community is fearing for the worse in Sweden:

      It will not be long before the true anti-Semitic nature of the far-right anti-immigrant Sweden Democrats (SD) party – which won an unprecedented number of seats in Sunday’s elections, is revealed – a leader of the local Jewish community there warned on Monday.

      “This is a neo-Nazi party… articulate, and talented…but very dangerous,” said Lena Posner, President of the Official Council of Jewish communities in Sweden, an umbrella organization of Jewish groups in the country. “We know where these people are coming from. They are Nazi sympathizers who, under their jackets, are still wearing their brown shirts.”

    • Enrique

      This haaretz link does not open. However, all type of xenophobia have the same root and the same aim.

  8. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, when you are right you are, and nobody can deny it. The Jews where targeted back there and they are still today. Thanks for bring up this important issue.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article453875.ece

    “What is most unsettling is that the Government, suffering from excessive cultural relativism, is also pandering to Islamic anti-Semitism.”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1563917.ece

    “We are very worried about Islamic antisemitism on campuses. In this country we tend to see it as something of the past. It is not.”

  9. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    Is it possible to criticise the foreign and domestic policy of Israel without being anti-Semitic in this extremely broad sense? Please explain how.

  10. JusticeDemon

    Tony,

    I asked for an explanation. Why do you consider that this policy initiative seeking to limit the freedom of Jews to build homes in the land given to them by God is not anti-Semitic? There are plenty of Israelis who would describe it as such. Are they wrong? And are you anti-Semitic for saying that they are wrong? If not, then precisely why not?

  11. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, I’m glad you brought up such important issue, let me quote Mark Steyn on that…

    The famous United Nations statistic from a 2002 report–more books are translated into Spanish in a single year than have been translated into Arabic in the last thousand–suggests at the very minimum an extraordinarily closed world. What books are among the few they do translate? Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, both of which are prominently displayed bestsellers in even moderate Muslim countries–and, indeed, even in the Muslim stores on Edgware Road in the heart of London. No Islamic nation could have flown to the moon or invented the Internet, simply because for a millennium the culture has suppressed the curiosity necessary for such a venture.

    You don’t have to subscribe to the view that every Muslim is a jihadist nutcake eager to hijack a 747 and head for the nearest tall building to acknowledge that at the very minimum these population trends put a large question mark over the future. Let me pluck two interesting numbers:

    In the fall of 2001, the Ottawa Citizen conducted a coast-to-coast survey of Canadian imams and found all but two insistent that there was no Muslim involvement in September 11. Oh, well. It was just a few weeks after the attacks; everyone was still in shock. Perfectly understandable in its way.

    Five years later, in the summer of 2006, a poll in the United Kingdom found that only 17 percent of British Muslims believed there was any Arab involvement in September 11.

    Often what’s nuttiest is that it’s completely illogical: in the spring of 2002, I met many Arabs who believed simultaneously that (a) September 11 was pulled off by the Mossad and (b) it was a great victory for the Muslim people.

  12. Tony Garcia

    Sorry I missed the last paragraph, still quoted from Mark Steyn…

    In Linz, Austria, Muslims are demanding that all female teachers, believers or infidels, wear headscarves in class. The Muslim Council of Britain wants Holocaust Day abolished because it focuses “only” on the Nazis’ (alleged) Holocaust of the Jews and not the Israelis’ ongoing Holocaust of the Palestinians.

  13. Tony Garcia

    But it’s very important to acknowledge that this Islamic menace upon Jews are not only found in Europe. Again from Mark Steyn…

    Take Nada Farooq, a student at Meadowvale Secondary School in Mississauga, Ontario. In 2004 she started an Internet forum for Muslim teens in the area. One poster thought it would be fun if they had a thread explaining what made Canada unique, but Nada nixed that one in nothing flat: “Who cares? We hate Canada.”

    So what does grab her interest? Well, she wasn’t too thrilled to hear that Abdel Aziz al- Rantissi, a Hamas honcho, had been killed by an Israeli missile. “May Allah crush these jews,” she declared, “bring them down to their knees, humiliate them. Ya Allah make their women widows and their children orphans.” But she and her fellow Meadowvale students were extremely partial to a very bloody video showing the beheading of an American hostage in Iraq.

    Oh, well. Excitable teens often pass through a somewhat turbulent phase. But two years later Miss Farooq’s husband and sixteen other men were arrested in a terrorist plot that included wide-ranging plans to blow up the Toronto Stock Exchange, seize Parliament in Ottawa, and kidnap and behead the prime minister.

  14. JusticeDemon

    So you think these examples entitle you to demonise an entire population group, Tony? How will this help to make the world a better place?

  15. JusticeDemon

    Just out of interest, Tony, what is your view of the Srebrenica genocide? What was the religion of the victims and the perpetrators? What was the role of demonising a population group over the period leading up to this incident? What is its continuing role in Republika Srpska? Do you think the victims deserved their fate?

  16. Klay_Immigrant

    JusticeDemon and Enrique would do consider it racist if a white man or woman only wanted to fornicate with their own race? If so would the same apply to a black man or woman who wanted to do the same?

    • Enrique

      Klay, your questions surprise me. What kind of a question is that. If you wish, you can “fornicate” with any human you wish in our society. That is your personal matter.

  17. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Racism is the belief that all members of each race (however so perceived) possess characteristics or abilities that are specific to that race, and that in particular serve to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

    Racism is about propositional attitudes, so until you provide a reason for the preference, there is no way to answer your question. If the preference is purely a question of taste (comparable to preferring Vivaldi to Mozart or Indian to Chinese food), then it would certainly not be racist, and obviously commutativity applies.

    I suspect that you are referring to this case, which perhaps deserves a blog entry all of its own.

  18. Klay_Immigrant

    Interesting definition of racism. In that case following that criteria these two statements are racist even though statistics have shown to agree with them.

    1. People from West Africa or come from West African descent are superior sprinters than any other race.

    71 men have run under 10 seconds for the 100m. Only 2 have no West African ethnicity.

    2. Scandinavian men are superior in height than East Asian Men.

    Average Height for Scandinavian Men:- 5ft 11in
    Average Height for East Asian Men:- 5ft 8in

    Are these statements racist?

    • Enrique

      –Are these statements racist?

      If they are physical characteristics of a people why would they be? However, if you are going to use this kind of information to prove your “superiority” over others then it would be most likely racist. It depends on the context. Remember the Berlin 1936 Olympics and an athelete called Jesse Owens? The Nazis were so obsessed about being superior that they could not understand why a black man outran and outdid their “Aryan” athletes on the track field.

      The whole aim of eugenics before WW2 was to show how some races were more superior than others. Now that was pretty racist. The information was used to exterminate and exploit other groups.

  19. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    The definition is basically OED and it has certain flaws, the most important of which is that there is no physical basis underlying the classification of individuals into discrete races. This is why I added the parenthetical condition. Perhaps you can supply a better definition?

    It is not disputed that certain heritable characteristics are unevenly distributed in the human gene pool, and that the distribution pattern is largely geographical. This, however, has nothing to do with value judgements that require a frame of reference. Human beings in some parts of the world have collectively decided to take an interest in the ability to run relatively short distances at great speed under highly controlled conditions, and it is against this frame of reference that you can say that one person is a better sprinter than another. To the extent that this is an expression of one or more heritable characteristics, you may also expect some uneven geographical distribution in the origins of good sprinters.

    By superior in height you presumably mean “taller”. It is by no means clear what the optimum height for a human being could be.

    There are a great many human characteristics that are almost certainly unevenly distributed. These include the ability to conserve bodily fluids and resist dehydration in hot, dry conditions, the ability to retain body heat and resist extreme cold, visual acuity in very dim or very bright light, the ability to grow very long hair, high or low bone density, the ability to dislocate a limb, the ability to hide in a dark place, all congenital diseases and disorders (sickle cell anaemia and associated immunity to malaria is the classic example). We choose to value some of these characteristics and to ignore others.

    The point here is that value judgements depend on a frame of reference that is selected according to socially determined and largely arbitrary human interests.

    • Enrique

      One matter that surprises me is why German politicians are stating this and not ones from England or even Spain? Politicians will be politicians. Some are real opportunists and even lack a basic understanding about what it means to live in a society with immigrants. And think of all the economic help that Turkish workers have given Germany for decades. Is this the thanks they get? Apart from opportunistic, politicians are lazy and greedy. Think about the absurd statement: People from all over the world come to Germany, work, contribute to the economy and Germans can continue to sit on their behinds as if nothing has changed in their society.

      See where this story got a lot of coverage. Did it make the front pages of England? Nope.

      As I mentioned, racism continues to be a bg problem in Europe. This shows that it will continue to be one for a long time. It reveals ignorance with a capital “I”.

  20. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, isn’t amazing that the more a country is exposed to multiculturalism in general, and Islam in particularly, the more it turns against it? Now, after years down this road, Germany start to have second thoughts. Once you said that after people have prolonged contact with another culture it starts to understands it. Quite right, but understand it doesn’t necessary means like it.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique, isn’t amazing that the more a country is exposed to multiculturalism in general, and Islam in particularly, the more it turns against it?

      Do you really think so? You have to take into consideration the economic recession. Some political parties and groups have used this to accuse immigrants of all their problems. Europe has always been diverse. There are many religions, cultural groups and ethnicities that are European. Islam is one of them.

      When the economy improves, relations between different groups will also.

  21. xyz

    Tony, important is the character of a person and not his religion etc. I don’t understant why it is so difficult for you to understand this? Also interesting that this is such a hot topic in financial difficult times.

  22. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘People from all over the world come to Germany, work, contribute to the economy and Germans can continue to sit on their behinds as if nothing has changed in their society.’

    Hope you are not implying that ethnic Germans had nothing to do with the miraculous recovery of their economy after WW2 even with sanctions imposed on them. Immigrants helped along the way as Germany suffered huge civilian and military human losses during the war but it was the Germans not immigrants who pulled themselves out to economic recovery not ‘sit on their behinds’ as you so politely stated.

    -‘See where this story got a lot of coverage. Did it make the front pages of England? Nope.’

    On quite a few occasions Enrique you have suggested that UK is a leader in Europe when it comes to liberal immigrantion policy and tolerance. But that just isn’t the case anymore. In the last recent election in May this year only the economy was a bigger issue. National televised debates were held between representative of the main parties just on immigration alone. Don’t blame the recession on that Enrique as ever since Labour and Tony Blair took over in 1997 immigration has always been in the top 3 biggest issues during election time even when there was a bull market economy.

    One of the reasons why the Conservatives won the election was that on April 2011 they plan to introduce a permanent cap on immigration of those entering the UK from outside the EU, a policy none of the other main parties adopted.

    So immigration is an issue in Britain as well and measures are being taken to control it as we speak.

    • Enrique

      Klay, how much of an issue immigration is in the UK remains to be seen. In the meantime, let’s take a closer look at what the Bavarian state premier Horst Seehofer said: “We as the (Christian Democratic) Union stand for the dominant German culture and against multiculturalism – multiculturalism is dead,” he said according to news magazine Der Spiegel.

      Here are some questions I would ask Seehofer (these could apply to any politician trying to capitalize on anti-immigration):

      (1) What is a dominant German culture and how do you measure it? Claiming that white Germans don’t dominate the country’s political and economic power is absurd.
      (2) Wow, the next thing he mentions he is against multiculturalism and it is dead. So? What does that mean? Are you going to kick out everyone whom you consider different? Are you going to force them at gun point to see a plastic surgeon so they will look more German? Moreover, Germany is not officially a multicultural country as is Canada, the UK and Australia. Is he suggesting that Germany will close its borders? As you can see, Seehofer’s statement has a lot of hot air. It is a populist snow-job.
      (3) Another underhanded and cowardice trick is to blame everything on immigrants. He is wahing his hands on Germany’s failure to integrate Turkish and Arab workers.
      (4) Seehofer is an opportunistic politician. His statements will not solve anything. The only thing they will create are more problems. Why? Because he does not give any solutions on how to resolve the integration “problem.”

    • Enrique

      xyz, isn’t it funny when the economic chips are down, the host nation conveniently forgets how much immigrants fuelled economic growth.

  23. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    One of the reasons why the Conservatives won the election was that on April 2011 they plan to introduce a permanent cap on immigration of those entering the UK from outside the EU, a policy none of the other main parties adopted.

    Leaving aside the point about which party won the election and the force of manifesto commitments in coalition government, it will be interesting to see how this permanent cap works out in practice. There are no plans to withdraw from international treaty commitments, so the cap can only lawfully apply to strictly discretionary cases of leave to enter and remain.

    In the first place this means migrant workers. International companies may be told that they cannot move specialists to their UK operations because the migrant worker quota has already been filled. This will directly influence the level of foreign investment in the UK economy, and may also affect the standard of teaching staff in higher education, the standard of football played in the English Premier League and various other aspects of UK life.

    In the second place this affects certain categories of family reunification, and it is only a matter of time before a politically prominent UK citizen is told that the quota is full and so a foreign spouse cannot come to the UK, but the citizen is free to emigrate. It occurs to me that neither of the two English princes are married. Constructive deportation of a member of the royal family could make for an interesting constitutional crisis…

    In short: there are reasons why this manifesto commitment may be impossible to implement. We shall see how it works out.

  24. Klay_Immigrant

    Merkel quotes:

    1.”We kidded ourselves for a while that they wouldn’t stay, but that’s not the reality,”

    2.”Of course the tendency had been to say, ‘let’s adopt the multicultural concept and live happily side by side, and be happy to be living with each other’. But this concept has failed, and failed utterly,”

    3.”until we have done all we can to help our own people to become qualified and give them a chance”.

    All this just seems so obvious that I’m astonished that only now people are starting to realise their mistakes.

    1. If you take a group of people from a poor developing country and allow them to come into a rich developed country, the majority will stay and never move back. Why? The quality of life is better and their children will have a better start in life. Also they and their children will eventually attain a valuable gold plated European passport meaning freedom of movement in Europe and visa free travel to most of the world. Not rocket science!

    2. If you take 2 groups of people and put them to live in an area, with time they will segregate and since they live a different way of life, believe in different customs and have differing behaviour norms there will always be tension as each groups thinks their way is the best way causing arguments, hostility and in worst cases violence and riots. Not rocket science!

    3. The duty and responsibility of a country or individual is to help their own first and foremost. For a country that’s it’s citizens. Why not immigrants? Because they are already the responsibility of another country. An anology would be for an individual to look after his/her family and close long time friends first not unrelated people they only met very recently. Not rocket science!

    You take a multiculturalism supporting politician or academic from their upper class monocultural monoracial neighbourhood and stick them in the middle of a cultural enclave (ghetto) a result of multiculturalism and you’ll see how long they change their tune. It’s always harder and less accurate finding solutions to a problem if you don’t experience it yourself.

    • Enrique

      As you all know we have elections in Germany. Merkel only whines about the situation but offers no solutions. Taking into consideration the “wonders” of German “multiculturalism” (is Germany such a country?), it is hitting pretty low to blame immigrants for not immigrating. Politicians will be politicians.

      Wow, Klay, now we are noticing the mistakes in Germany… Any person could have noticed them many decades ago. ¨

      I still think your exaplantaions of how society works are too simplistic. There is no such thing as monocultural. It only exists in between your ears.

  25. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Also the interior Minister of Germany said that the number of those who are not willing to integrate is about 15%.’

    I doubt that figure is true, I’m sure it’s a lot higher, but let’s pretend that is true that’s still 1.52 million immigrants. A huge amount of people bigger than Greater Helsinki including Espoo, Vantaa and all the other 10 municipalities.

  26. Tony Garcia

    “I doubt that figure is true, I’m sure it’s a lot higher”

    Absolutely, especially if you take in consideration that this year Germany has already uncovered 45 terrorists cells around the country witch 3 of them just about the get their hand on dirt bombs.

  27. xyz

    I doubt that figure is true, I’m sure it’s a lot higher, but let’s pretend that is true that’s still 1.52 million immigrants. A huge amount of people bigger than Greater Helsinki including Espoo, Vantaa and all the other 10 municipalities.
    -I don’t know but comparing one of the less populated countries in Europe with Germany is not really comparable. Just Berlin alone has over 4 million people.

    “I doubt that figure is true, I’m sure it’s a lot higher”
    -If you are sure then you need to show a source.

  28. Klay_Immigrant

    Remember that figure doesn’t even include people who are citizens but have foreign heritage, so in reality the figure is much bigger.

  29. Klay_Immigrant

    If you do include citizens of foreign background that 15% non-integrating estimate adds 2.45 million to 1.52 million immigrants so 3.97 million total. A frightening figure even with a conservative estimate.

  30. Tony Garcia

    Second: these comments are not coming from a obscure small party trying to grab a few votes in the next election. It comes from the government of one of the (if not the) strongest and most influential country in the EU and, arguably, the most powerful woman in the world today. If this doesn’t have weight, I don’t know what it does…

  31. xyz

    Germany has a population of 81 Mio.

    15.000.000 are Immigrants
    Turkish 1.713.551
    EU 2.100.000
    Italians 528.318
    Polish 384.808
    Greek 294.891
    Non-EU 3.200.000

    18.7% are immigrants in Germany
    2.9 % are immigrants in Finland

    Germany has 3 times more immigrants than the whole population of Finland.

    That’s why 1.52 million sounds a lot for you.

    What do you mean with citizens of foreign background? I am also an immigrant in Ireland (at the moment) but I do not have an Irish Passport. In Finland they also send you to Finnish Courses if you get unemployed even so you do not have a Finnish passport.

  32. Klay_Immigrant

    A citizen has a passport of that country. A resident doesn’t necessarily have a passport but lives in that country. So a Finnish citizen can live anywhere in the world but a Finnish resident only lives in Finland. Ofcourse a person can be both a Finnish resident and a Finnish citizen.

  33. JusticeDemon

    Given your evident fondness for statistics, Klay, I find it a bit surprising that you haven’t yet commented on those figures from 1932 concerning Jews.

  34. Klay_Immigrant

    xyz, they are people who are German citizens with German passports who live in Germany but are not ethnically German (largest group have Turkish origin).

  35. Klay_Immigrant

    By residing in Germany for 8 years. But there are other circumstances that reduce that time such as marriage to a German citizen or birth in Germany.

  36. Tony Garcia

    So Enrique, the German government doesn’t have competent specialists and advisers to see the “obvious”. Have you consider sending your application?

    PS. She said multiculturalism didn’t work, not immigration. Good part of non-integrated Muslims in Germany are not immigrants but the second generation.

    • Enrique

      –She said multiculturalism didn’t work, not immigration. Good part of non-integrated Muslims in Germany are not immigrants but the second generation.

      Now I am really confused. Do you mean that Muslims, which are in your opinion the epitome of multiculturalism, have failed? By multiculturalism do you mean the Canadian model or a narrow defeinition that integration has failed compared with assimilation?

      If the Muslims in Germany are second generation, they are Germans. This has to do with a German social issue. Do you see how poorly countries can deal with the issue?

      UPDATE: I just read that Merkel’s government they are planning to offer more language courses for foreigners. Even though this is a good start, is it enough. The problem could lie deep in the suspicion of Germans of certain immigrants and viseversa. If that is the case, language courses will only put a little mascara on the problem.

  37. Tony Garcia

    “Merkel only whines about the situation but offers no solutions”

    “Those who wanted to live in Germany had to be prepared to accept the daily culture of the country,” – Angela Merkel

    • Enrique

      —“Those who wanted to live in Germany had to be prepared to accept the daily culture of the country,” – Angela Merkel

      Could she please tell us how this is done in a society that has done poorly to integrate immigrants. Moreover, these statements are done in light of a few state elections in Germany next year.

      If you guys want to learn how to analyse politics, ask why certain statements are being made at a particular time. There is a diferect connection to the elections. Also take a closer look at what she is saying and what solutions she is offering. Certainlyt it is worrying tha a large country like Germany is being swept away by hysteria and hopping on the scapegoat immigration wagon. Whatever she says, one important matter is missing: how are you going to put into place a successful integration/adaption program for immigrants. We can look at Germany closely and see how it has failed on a lot of fronts. The best proof is what Merkel is saying.

  38. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Wow, Klay, now we are noticing the mistakes in Germany… Any person could have noticed them many decades ago.’

    If that was the case when they discovered multiculturalism doesn’t work ‘decades ago’ they thought the best solution was to increase immigration from countries who have integrated the least and to intensify multiculturalism and not adopt assimilation. That makes a lot of sense. Or maybe the looney liberal deluded themselves into thinking it was working.

    • Enrique

      Klay, this statement does not make sense: If that was the case when they discovered multiculturalism doesn’t work ‘decades ago’ they thought the best solution was to increase immigration from countries who have integrated the least and to intensify multiculturalism and not adopt assimilation.

      I dispute your use of the term “multiculturalism” which does not mean anything in the context of your statement. Why not say a society made up of many immigrants/a country with a strong immigrant presence? That would explain better what you are saying instead of throwing the word “multiuclturalism” as some sort of evil concept. And remember: Germany is NOT officially a multicultural country if you are referring to Canada, England and Australia. These latter countries are officially multicultural.

      Are you also that naive to think that the Germans increased immigration because they liked immigrants? They increased it because there was an economic need. Immigrants like Turks and others have contributed greatly to the Germany economy. Assimilation does not work in a society that loathes some immigrant groups. Assimilation is, in my opinion, another copout to blame immigrants for failing. If you come to Finland and don’t learn the language well enough, don’t get a job, and end up in a dead-end career society, I will blame you for not assimilating, even if you earnestly tried.

  39. xyz

    President of Germany says that he don’t believe that a whole group is not able to integrate during his visit in Turkey.

    http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/deutschlandtuerkei110.html

    So here we go again…it’s not about groups it is about individuals.

    Enrique: I doubt that language courses alone can solve any issues. I can speak a language perfectly but if e.g. my name sounds different this could be already a minus point for some people.

  40. Tiwaz

    -“Could she please tell us how this is done in a society that has done poorly to integrate immigrants. Moreover, these statements are done in light of a few state elections in Germany next year. ”

    Done poorly?

    Here we have Enrique again blaming someone else for failures of immigrants.

    How does host society cause immigrants to integrate? Integration requires IMMIGRANT to adjust to local conditions.

    Should there in your view be special “camps” where integration is forced to immigrants? Is that what you mean by saying Germany failed to integrate the immigrants?

    Or does integration in your view mean that natives must forfeit their own unique culture and adopt ways of immigrants?

    ONLY ONES RESPONSIBLE FOR INTEGRATION OF IMMIGRANTS ARE IMMIGRANTS, AS THEY ARE ONLY ONES WHO CAN DO IT.

    You can’t learn something on behalf of another one any more than you can take a dump on behalf of someone else.

  41. xyz

    How does host society cause immigrants to integrate? Integration requires IMMIGRANT to adjust to local conditions.
    -If I don’t offer enough language courses and I don’t give a person who tries to integrate into the society a chance then there is little hope that this person keeps his motivation up to integrate.

  42. Tony Garcia

    “Could she please tell us how this is done in a society that has done poorly to integrate immigrants.”

    Here is where you are wrong, it’s not up to the society to integrate us, but us to integrate ourselves.

    “how are you going to put into place a successful integration/adaption program for immigrants.”

    To some group of immigrants, impossible. That’s why Finland doesn’t need a successful integration program but a wise immigration policy.

    ” Do you mean that Muslims have failed?”

    Yes, I do. And by multiculturalism I mean – “let they come and be whatever they want to be”. That has failed not only in Germany but around Europe.

    “If the Muslims in Germany are second generation, they are Germans. This has to do with a German social issue.”

    Yes, that’s right, now they are. That’s why the problem is multiculturalism and not immigration itself. Finland still have the chance to avoid this problem, that’s why we need to vote for True Finns to send a clear message to Helsinki.

    “Do you see how poorly countries can deal with the issue?”

    Yes I do, they close their eyes pretending nothing is happening, then what used to be a simple immigration issue that could be easily solved by passing wise laws, becomes a huge social illness.

    • Enrique

      Tony, you probably read this DPA story published in the Earth Times: Strasbourg – United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki Moon warned on Tuesday against a “dangerous trend” of intolerance targeting Muslim immigrants in Europe, in a speech to the European Parliament in Strasbourg.

      “A dangerous trend is emerging, a new politics of polarization. Some play on people’s fears,” Ban said, adding, “They accuse immigrants of violating European values.”

      “Yet too often it is the accusers who subvert these values and thus the very idea of what it means to be a citizen of the European Union,” he continued. You can read on by clicking here.

  43. Tony Garcia

    Dear Enrique, what can I say?

    http://www.hs.fi/politiikka/artikkeli/Pakolaisnainen+ja+maahanmuuton+arvostelija+kokoomuksen+ehdokkaiksi+Helsingiss%C3%A4/1135260989536

    “Olen maahanmuuton puolesta, mutta sen pitäisi olla työperäistä. Samalla meidän pitää olla humaaneja hätää kärsiviä kohtaan”, Hetemaj sanoo.

    Kehitysapu on Hetemaj’n mielestä oivallinen tapa auttaa. “Meidän pitää auttaa ihmisiä heidän lähtömaassaan. Esimerkiksi kehitysmaiden nuoria voidaan kouluttaa Suomessa. Kun he palaavat kotimaahansa, heillä on tietotaitoa viedä asioita eteenpäin.”

  44. xyz

    To some group of immigrants, impossible. That’s why Finland doesn’t need a successful integration program but a wise immigration policy.
    -That means actually that you don’t even have an interest in integrating people and then you wonder why integration does not work. And as the president of Germany said, it’s not about groups.

  45. xyz

    Here a list of famous Turks in Germany:
    Virgil Oeger is owner of one of the biggest Tour Operators in Germany
    Kaya Yanar is a very popular comedian in the German TV
    Nuri Sahin is Germans youngest Bundesliga Player
    Yildiray Bastürk another Bundesliga Player
    Nazan Eckes is TV Moderator on RTL
    Gülcan Karahanci was in the Top10 of the German Music Charts
    Cem Özdemir is a famous Politican
    and there are plenty others e.g. Django Asül, Fatih Akin, Serdar Somuncu, Halil und Hamit Altintop,…

    Fact is that those people have greatly contributed to the German Society.

  46. Tiwaz

    -“If I don’t offer enough language courses”

    Which you and your kin fail to use properly. Why should I, the Finnish taxpayer, waste MORE money to offer you ungrateful little ******* CENSORED more courses when you fail to learn on the ones existing?

    Before demanding new courses, people on existing ones should show that immigrants actually are prepared to work their asses off on those courses to LEARN.

    -“and I don’t give a person who tries to integrate into the society a chance then there is little hope that this person keeps his motivation up to integrate.”

    Chance comes after integration, not before.
    Do not demand appeasement, first show that you integrate and want to belong, then you get a place.

    Your argument is idiotic. It is same as me demanding to be paid before I do any work. It just does not work that way.

    First work, then pay.

  47. xyz

    Which you and your kin fail to use properly. Why should I, the Finnish taxpayer, waste MORE money to offer you ungrateful little bastards more courses when you fail to learn on the ones existing?
    -Listen, if you can not use proper words then stop posting. Otherwise I am going to sue you.

    Before demanding new courses, people on existing ones should show that immigrants actually are prepared to work their asses off on those courses to LEARN.
    -How long did it take for you to speak fluent English?

    Chance comes after integration, not before.
    -Well lets take a school. If students know that their degree is useless after they graduate results will be bad since there is no motivation why they should learn.

  48. JusticeDemon

    Finnish language courses have been consistently oversubscribed for many years. Tiwaz has no evidence whatsoever that they are ineffective due to lack of application by course participants. This is why her language has become particularly abusive and she shows her true colours on this point.

    Based on my own direct experience of language teaching in the 1990s, the most serious problems are all in some way linked to the fact that the subject of teaching Finnish as a foreign language to adults is still very new indeed. The range of available teaching materials is extremely narrow, teacher training courses are few and far between (who would be competent to lead them?) and there is virtually no specialist pedagogical literature or research in this field.

    Until the early 1990s nearly all instruction of this kind took place in universities. This instruction was designed for highly academic individuals and was largely constrained to highly academic purposes, with the main emphasis on reading and writing. Very little of this experience based on a grammar-translation approach was relevant to the concrete situation of Finnish language teachers faced with the task of teaching oral/aural skills to groups of returnees, migrant workers and refugees with a variety of native languages and at best only minimal competence in English.

    The gulf between language teaching pedagogics in English and Finnish is still huge. There are still very few Finnish language teachers who will readily take up the challenge of teaching a beginners’ class of academically average adults speaking a variety of native languages but no English. By contrast tackling this kind of situation is part of the core training of English language teachers and it underlies the world’s best selling language training course literature.

  49. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, UN? The world largest cartel of Islamic dictatorship? Denouncing “persecution” of Muslims? What a surprise, who knew?

    UN is only preoccupied with two things, first make sure that Islamic theocracies are well and safe, and second destroy the state of Israel. Wasn’t by the US veto power, today, Israel would only exists in history books.

    Let me quote John Bolton…

    “There’s no such thing as the United Nations. If the U.N. secretary building in New York lost 10 stories, it wouldn’t make a bit of difference.”

    • Enrique

      Tony, you forget an important saying: two wrongs don’t make a right. We all understand the shortcomings of the UN but still they do play an important role. Bush and the neocons wanted to make it redundant. However, the comment by the UN secretary general was necessary.

      John Bolton?! Oh no! You don’t mean theJohn Bolton that resigned as UN ambassador because the senate would not confirm him? Bolton was the epitome of the neocon foreign policy, which is history today.

  50. Tiwaz

    -“Finnish language courses have been consistently oversubscribed for many years. Tiwaz has no evidence whatsoever that they are ineffective due to lack of application by course participants. This is why her language has become particularly abusive and she shows her true colours on this point.”

    Girl, how about giving any proof that immigrants are motivated? Because one of the most common complaints by motivated people going to courses is how various groups just come to sit on courses, disrupt the class and cause nobody to learn anything.

    Groups where only motivated people are admitted, results are excellent. But until sufficient changes are made to system to permit immediate and merciless booting of disruptive immigrants from courses it is pointless to pay more for more wasted courses.

    This is another one of the cases where nobody wants to do a study (like nobody wants to make study on expenses of immigration) because if numbers were leaked to public it would cause huge outcry.

    xyz:
    -“How long did it take for you to speak fluent English?”
    Years. So?
    I have never said it would be easy. It is hard work to learn language. But that is not excuse to demand appeasement.

    If you come to Finland, you have to accept reality that without Finnish you are mostly useless for employers.

    -“Well lets take a school. If students know that their degree is useless after they graduate results will be bad since there is no motivation why they should learn.”

    And again it is stupidity of students that they enrolled to useless study.

    Again, as pointed out by Aamulehti (go search their website) once immigrant bothers learning language fluently, their employment chances go radically up.

  51. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz confirms that she has no evidence to back up her claim. She has not attended a course of this kind and she knows nobody who has. She offers no response at all to the point that this is a very new branch of pedagogics with all of the associated difficulties. In short, this is argumentum ad ignorantiam and it need not detain us further.

  52. xyz

    I have never said it would be easy. It is hard work to learn language. But that is not excuse to demand appeasement.
    -So if it’s hard work, why do you call all immigrants stupid and lazy?

    And again it is stupidity of students that they enrolled to useless study.
    -You mean Finnish courses are useless?

    Again, as pointed out by Aamulehti (go search their website) once immigrant bothers learning language fluently, their employment chances go radically up.
    -Or not useless?

  53. Tony Garcia

    Necessary? Well, that’s your opinion, but for me anything coming from the UN is as necessary as a bad case of malaria.

    Yep, that’s the guy, who I do respect very much. And again, yep, the neocon policy is history, it has been replaced by the spineless policy of Mr. Hussein, who will taste a bitter defeat this November and, if things keep the way they are, will go down the history as another incompetent one term president, just his buddy Mr. Carter.

    For now terrorist states like Iran and North Korea are happier then never.

    • Enrique

      You have never been arrested and deprived of habeas corpus. I was once in Argentina for not haveing my ID papers. Carter’s human rights policy had special meaning to me as they closed the cell door. Are Brazilians anti-muslim?

  54. Tony Garcia

    “Are Brazilians anti-muslim?”

    There is a satirical program called “Casseta & Planeta” that used to be on our biggest broadcast, TV Globo, I think on Tuesday evenings. After 9/11 they started to take the piss of Muslims, I have seen some of their programs about Islam on the youtube. I’ll try to find some and post the link. Although they speak Portuguese I’m quite sure anyone will be able to get what is going on and probably laugh the socks off.

    Unfortunately I think you won’t find it much funny. Let’s just say that Brazilians are not really very politically correct.

  55. Tony Garcia

    What I tried to say is that, generally speaking, Brazilians are not against Muslims per se. That’s because we just don’t have many of them around. I grew up in Sao Paulo, Brazil’s larger city and, during the 33 years I lived there, I never came across a single one, at least not that I could recognize. After 9/11 they started to appear on TV but always as weirdoes crazy terrorists, and more on satirical programs, been taken the piss of, than on news.

    In Brazil we have an invisible but very effective border. Most of the time, the 10% of Brazilians don’t really mix with the other 90%, and appearance is essential in there. I doubt a Muslim dressing those Arabic dresses, hard-scarf or burka would be allowed into a fancy shopping-center. The security would probably block them at the door.

    • Enrique

      Yes, Tony, and while you are at it ask how the Roma are doing in France and the Turks in Germany. It is pretty interesting that a conservative daily like the Telegraph echoes the word multicultural. The term, which I mentioned is only official policy in three countries in the world, is used by critics to blame the whole integration process on immigrants. Germany and France are definitely NOT multitucltural. They are only countries that have a lot of foreigners with vague ideas on what to do with them. So, Tony, don’t fall in that trap.

    • Enrique

      –It’ll be dismissed as non-sense by the lefties who fly around this blog,

      Where have you been sleeping for the past ten years. In Europe the traditional left is on some issues further right than traditional right-wing parties. Look at the PT in Brazil. Are they turning Brazil into a communist paradise? No way! They are doing a better job at governing the country than traditional right-wing parties. Life is strange, no?

  56. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    I think that article does identify one significant problem that was recognised and debated in some detail in Finland when preparing the 2004 Aliens Act and the recent reforms to the 1999 Integration Act. This problem of security of position and personal commitment is not confined to immigration, but also arises in employment, leasehold housing and many other types of legal relationship.

    The German guest worker programme was based on the idea of labour as a resource that could somehow be separated from people, so that the former could be imported without regard to the latter.

    This idea was explicitly rejected in Finnish government policy in the 1970s, when the Migration Affairs Commission formulated the view that foreign workers would not be regarded as a disposable labour reserve. This meant a fairly high threshold for entry, but relatively reliable security thereafter. It is a shame that many immigrants remained unaware of how good that security was in the 1980s.

    In its modernised form, this policy means that the State makes an early commitment to the permanence of a migrant worker, thereby improving the conditions for the migrant worker to make a reciprocal commitment to remaining. This gives the State a much higher return on its investment in migrant workers, as Finland is no longer viewed as a stepping stone en route to some other destination.

    It is essentially unreasonable to expect loyalty and commitment from an individual in a relationship unless you show the same in return. Many employers discover this when they abuse temporary employment contracts. Employees with no long-term job security are unlikely to take much genuine interest in the employer’s long-term policy programmes. Similarly I cannot expect my tenant to take the keenest interest in maintaining my property if I insist that the tenancy is insecure. In a temporary arrangement an individual will normally only do what is strictly necessary to get by. This is why the wardrobes remain largely unused in airport transit hotels: what’s the point of unpacking my suitcase when I’m expecting to be out of there tomorrow morning?

    One of my own strongest messages to immigrants in Finland is to resolve the psychological question of where home is. Government policy and social attitudes have a substantial influence in this area. Since the effective abolition of permanently temporary migrant status in 2004, I think Finland has had a good formula in terms of government policy, and we are now beginning to reap the rewards of this policy. Social attitudes are another problem, of course.

  57. Klay_Immigrant

    All this talk about language classes and language proficiency gives the false impression that by merely turning up to language classes, fluency or even a good level of conversational skills can be achieved.

    We all know that is not the case. The only way and I mean the only way is practise, practise, and practise. How is that done? By immersing oneself in the language and having constant exposure. Now the question is do the majority of immigrants do that? The answer is sadly no and the results show for themselves.

    Having a few hours of classes a week and then talking your mother tongue the rest of the time to your fellow comrades will get you nowhere. Providing more language classes is not the solution to the problem but if they are oversubscribed then it is a positive start.

    • Enrique

      Klay, I think you are intelligent enough to understand that it is no single side that carries the blame. However, interaction, is crucial. Moreover, one does not have to learn perfect Finnish or any language in order to adapt. I know many people who have succeeded in the United States even though their English isn’t good. My father was one example. Some groups use language as a means to create borders of exclusion. Finland is one of these types of langauges. They are not used to hearing others speak broken Finnish. But what the heck. The main thing is that you have the skills and can do your job. You don’t need to be published author to prove that you can communicate.

  58. JusticeDemon

    Ricky

    By and large I find that most Finnish native speakers are highly tolerant of efforts by learners to speak their language, but are generally not accustomed to adjusting their own speech to accommodate the listening comprehension abilities of a learner. Even quite advanced learners who can comfortably understand radio news broadcasts in Finnish may be quite lost when trying to conduct a conversation in a Kuopio street market. This is not because Finnish speakers are incapable of adjusting accent and register to match communication situations, but because the kind of adjustment required when communicating with learners is not familiar. Finnish native speakers do not feel comfortable talking to an adult learner in the same way as they talk to young children, for example.

    Most learners appreciate grammatically accurate and well organised delivery at a measured pace with a minimum of nonstandard lexical items and hesitation devices. The average Finn is fully able to speak this way, but generally lacks practice in doing so. Newsreaders and language teachers are the exception.

    It’s a safe bet that Finnish speakers are now developing the skill of communicating with learners in the same way as educated British English speakers have over the centuries.

    There is also an understandable tendency for Finns to switch languages in an effort to achieve communication fluency, and it is then up to the learner to insist that the conversation continues in Finnish. I recall a letter published in HS some years ago in which a Japanese student at a Finnish university expressed her annoyance at the evident enthusiasm of her classmates for trying to converse with her in every language except Finnish, which was the only language that they had in common.

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