The tale of two racist spray paintings in an eastern Finnish city

by , under All categories, Enrique

A new association called Kansavinvälinen Mikkeli (International Mikkeli) was registered on September 23. One of its most important aims is to serve as a forum where Finns and immigrants can openly debate topics that affect each other and create a greater sense of community.

One of the first matters that the association tackled was racist graffiti on the walls of the Kattilansilta School and underpass in Mikkeli.  To our surprise, the disturbing messages of both spray paintings had been there for months. The first one, at the school for children with learning disorders, had been noticed by one of the teachers in spring. The second one had been seen for the first time about seven months ago.

This spray painting was first noticed in spring by a teacher at the school for students with learning disorders. The school states on its website the following: We aim to foster the development of young people by meeting their needs and giving them the confidence and competence to lead independent, purposeful and enjoyable lives.

Even though the work of these spray-paintings is that of a deranged person, the most worrying matter is that some of the teachers didn’t think it was an urgent enough issue to address immediately.

Here is a discussion I had with one of the teachers of the Kattilansilta School in September:

“That sign has been there since spring,” he admitted. “They don’t represent my values.”

After a brief silence, the teacher continues: “Why is it that groups such as the (anti-immigration) True Finns and Muutos 2011 are labelled racist whenever they criticize immigrants for getting more social welfare than Finns?”

I asked him how he knew that some immigrants got more social welfare than Finns. He responded the local media as his main source.

This case at the school and my brief discussion with one of the teachers is,  in my opinion, a case in point why racism is still acceptable among some circles in Finland. It is done through silent approval or disapproval. The reaction could be compared with what happens in countries where human rights violations are the order of the day. Nobody dares to say anything in the erroneous belief or fear that nothing will ever happen to them.

After a call to the principal of Vanamo Special School, the graffiti was pained over the next day. The principal has his office in Vanamo Special School,  which reveals that the teachers of Kattilansilta School never brought the matter to his attention.

Here is one of the walls of the school where two of the three “white power” graffiti was sprayed.

The “Niggers Out” (apologies for the racist content of the photograph below) is still on the wall of an underpass after the association had got in touch in early October with the municipality.

This graffiti was first noticed on a wall of a Mikkeli underpass about seven months ago.These spray paintings appear to be the work of a neo-Nazi sympathizer(s).

  1. Tony Garcia

    “He responded the local media as his main source.”

    Care to tell us who are your sources?

    “the (anti-immigration) True Finns”

    Care to shown us where exactly the True-Finns are saying they are anti-immigration?

    • Enrique

      –Care to tell us who are your sources?

      I cannot and will not reveal my source, but he is a teacher at the school. By the way, what added value would it give to you if I did?

      There are a number of them like Halla-aho and James Hirvensaari to begin with. Check them out. They are on Facebook. One more addition, take a look at the so-called Nuiva manifesti, which is a good example of anti-immigration to put it lightly.

  2. Tony Garcia

    “I cannot and will not reveal my source”

    I see… He/she says talks about how some immigrants are getting the dole and quote the media as source, you deny it but can’t tells yours source… Interesting…

    I follow Halla-aho blog and have had many personal conversation with him and never found not even one article he wrote witch is anti-immigration. He’s, though, anti-some-immigration, just like many immigrants I know, including myself.

    Remember yours “we shouldn’t generalize” advice? Enrique, lately, you have been caught short-handed a number of times, quotes, translations, arson attach, referendums, etc… not again, please…

    “take a look at the so-called Nuiva manifesti”

    Again??? Enrique this is getting repetitive…

    “Sen sijaan katsomme, että Suomen on oltava avoin sellaiselle maahanmuutolle, jonka vaikutukset ovat neutraalit tai myönteiset. Tämä merkitsee sitä, että maahanmuuttaja, joka sopeuttaa ja elättää itse itsensä, on tervetullut.”

    • Enrique

      You did not answer the question, Tony: What added value would it give to you if I revealed that person’s name. Anyway, the principal of the school knows it.

      Yes, right, Halla-aho is “anti-some-immigration.” I call the True Finns an anti-immigration party. The Nuiva Manifest is one example.

      Stick to the topic: I brought a specific case in my hometown and all you can do is treat anti-immigration with kid gloves and point out that the True Finns are not anti-immigration. You didn’t say anthing about James Hirvisaari.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique, lately, you have been caught short-handed a number of times, quotes, translations, arson attach, referendums, etc… not again, please…

      Let’s take a look at what you are accusing me of:

      (1) Quotes: Do you mean the one maassa maan tavalla? That for me can be translated in two ways: In Rome do as the Romans do OR “Finland, love it (or leave it).” I can as a translator use my judgement to convey what the word originally means in Finnish. I see it both ways. Even Social Democrats don’t know what it actually means: assimilation or that we will be nice to immigrants because they can share our values. Anyway, the whole phrase is highly confusing. For me it is a bunch of air. It only means something to those that don’t understand its meaning.

      (2) The arson attack is suspected to be racially motivated. I posted something on this. You didn’t read it.

      (3) If I misunderstood two matters in two articles I wrote I corrected them.

      Now, if I pointed some of the things that you have said… But I dont’ waste my time because you are who you are. If you have issues with certain groups then that is your problem not mine. It is a good thing, however, that others can see this and maybe learn from it.

      There is an old saying: penny wise dollar stupid. Look at the big picture don’t waste your time on matters that have little to do with the real issue. In other words, no red herrings thank you.

  3. Tony Garcia

    “What added value would it give…”

    Isn’t you who always ask the sources and, in many cases, dismiss the whole point just because it has an “agenda”? The last time you asked me about was WorldNetDaily and DailyMotion. So your sources are examples of impartiality and moral standards, my are… hum… questionable to say the least… I see…

    Well the teacher say that some immigrants gets more dole than Finns, he puts his source on the record, you dismiss his allegation using a secretive, but beyond the doubt, source. Sorry but it doesn’t work like that, I think I would go with the teacher until proven the contrary, however, in this blog, prove is not really mandatory when bashing Finns.

    “I call the True Finns an anti-immigration party.”

    Yes you do, but it doesn’t make it true, sorry about that.

    “The Nuiva Manifest is one example.”

    It’s not, and it’s written there clearly there, but you’ll never admit you’re wrong. For someone who insist is not on the left you do show a clear leftism pathology.

    “You didn’t say anthing about James Hirvisaari.”

    Because I don’t know enough about him, and I learned in this very same blog that if you don’t have enough information about something it’s better don’t mention it otherwise you burn your fingers.

    “That for me can be translated in two ways:”

    Some people don’t think so, one even called your translation “self-serving”, remember who?

    “Even Social Democrats don’t know what it actually means”

    Left-wingers, what do you expect from these people?

    “Now, if I pointed some of the things that you have said”

    I stand by every single word I have ever said for the last 2 years on this blog, even posted my face here. Also everything I said I brought the sources and put it on the record. However I never attached you personally or hit below the belt, unfortunately can’t say the same about you…

  4. JusticeDemon

    Can anyone provide a single substantiated case in which an immigrant was granted more in social welfare benefits than a Finn in legally equivalent circumstances?

    The conditions under which social welfare benefits are granted are all set out in statutes made by Parliament. Any case of the foregoing kind would either indicate a bias in this legislation or unlawful conduct by the public official processing then said case.

    The legislation is all publicly available on the Finlex database. It incorporates no such bias.

    This means that any cases in which an immigrant was granted more in social welfare benefits than a Finn in legally equivalent circumstances would also be cases of lawbreaking by Finnish public officials.

    So the challenge is out there. Can anyone provide a single substantiated case in which an immigrant was granted more in social welfare benefits than a Finn in legally equivalent circumstances?

    • Enrique

      Hi Zuzeeko, great the hear from you again. I think the association, Kansainvälinen Mikkeli, is a good example how we can impact a city in a positive fashion. If we are going to create a sense of community, racism has no place in it.

    • Enrique

      Tony, you may respect him but I don’t understand what his point is. The “corrosion and culural relativism?” Do you know what is wrong with his point of view:
      (1) He speaks against multiculturalism but only gives a very narrow definition. What does he mean? That it is a bad thing to have diversity?
      (2) After his sound bites and peppers some humor, he does not tell us what his model is except that multiculturalism is bad. How does he integrate/assimilate other people from different cultures? By force? I guess that is what he is implying. The problem, Tony, is that you and this guy does NOT have a workable model. All he is doing is whining and trying to make some laugh with his pretty empty statements.

      Give me a model that works NOT one that only makes some laugh at the best.

  5. Klay_Immigrant

    Let’s put things into perspective ladies and gentlemen. It’s 2 signs of graffiti in a small town. If this was part of a widespread epidemic across towns and cities in Finland then there would be a problem, but it isn’t so should be treated as an isolated case. No individual got physically hurt by this action.

    I can imagine as the percentage of visible immigrants would be extremely low that the teachers had more important issues to deal with so the priority to remove it wasn’t high up on their list. As the children had learning difficulties they probably didn’t understand the true meaning of the sign or even take notice of it.

    Anyway what is all the fuss about as you said it Enrique ‘after a call to the principal of Vanamo Special School, the graffiti was pained over the next day.’ So the matter was dealt with immediate effect. What more can you ask for? For them to write a apology letter to every non-white person in Mikkeli for something they did not do?

    As for the Mikkeli underpass graffiti it’s hardly the most glamourous location so if public money was going to be used to clean and tidy up places that would be far down the list. You wouldn’t have this problem if that graffiti was on the high street.

    God I wish everywhere was a multiculturalists dream with no go areas where can be attacked for being a different race or wearing a certain coloured scarf or even just being from the neighbouring council estate. One day hopefully Finland will become that.

    • Enrique

      Klay, I had to censor a sentence in your thread that was highly offensive to a certain ethnic and religious groups.

      The moral of the story is the lateness of the officials and that they do not consider it a pressing issue.

      Why do you like to generalize about “multiculturalism.” If it means a society where different cultures’ rights are defended as a group and individual level, then I understand. However, I told you many times your point of view has no solution. In all our discussions you have not brought one workable model for your view of society except that people who are different should (1) get plastic surgery, (2) throw away their identity in the gutter (3) speak English like the queen and/or (4) leave/shoot themselves.

  6. Klay_Immigrant

    On a serious note, tell me Enrique what has the Islamic World contributed to MODERN society as we know it in Europe?

    Even resources in their territories such as oil was discovered by the West and showed them how to pump it out and utilise it making them rich in the process.

  7. Klay_Immigrant

    Without the West places such as Dubai would be a desolute wasteland no better than some of the poorest African countries. Can you say the same about Europe without Muslims? This is why when you state that all cultures are equal that is incorrect as evidence and history has shown some have been infinitely more successful on many different levels than others.

    Even left-wingers instead of using the terms 1st and 3rd World they prefer to use the terms developed and developing countries instead suggesting that the embodiment of mankind lies in the West and that’s what the rest of the World aspires to.

  8. Tony Garcia

    Enrique,

    Have you notice how wrong you have been about Brazilians for the last few days. You got wrong just about everything your said know about us, and amazingly enough, you should be pretty familiar with us, after all we are neighbors, speak a very similar language, have the same religion and culture, but still you got all wrong.

    Now you want us to believe you know Muslims. You know what they think, what their values are, and most importantly, you know what they would do if given the “right” chance. But you know all this from living 30 years in a country with their presence is close to nothing.

    Steyn hits the nail in the head when he says “Multiculturalism is not how much you know about other cultures but how fluffy you feel about them”. You, my friend, is a living example on how right he is.

    • Enrique

      Nice try, Tony, but it won’t work. You have shown with your comments and your jabbing that you have little respect for others. This is clear when we look at what you say about different groups. What do your children think? Do they laugh when you make fun of Muslims? What about people in Brazil who suffer from poverty? Are they all stupid and should be sent to the moon because they didn’t try “hard enough” or adapt to the system?

      Didn’t you learn at home or when you got a higher education what is appropriate behavior when dealing with people from other cultures? The first rule is you do not insult and that is what you do too much. You think it is funny to insult other groups but I personally think it is shameful.

      Treating people with respect has nothing to with “multiculturalism” but with common sense and decency.

  9. Tony Garcia

    “(1) get plastic surgery, (2) throw away their identity in the gutter (3) speak English like the queen and/or (4) leave/shoot themselves.”

    Enrique, is amazing how you resort to childish tantrums when you have no way to go. We have been giving the solution thousand of times, a immigrant just need to do what you did when you moved to Finland, and all will be fine. See what kind of behavior the country expect from you and do it. It’s so simple and I already posted here the Migrant Tales’ list of immigrates who followed this patch and are doing very well. You are the first on this list.

    You, my friend, are a living proof on how wrong your ideology is.

  10. JusticeDemon

    We have been giving the solution thousand of times, a immigrant just need to do what you did when you moved to Finland, and all will be fine.

    Well, Tony, it’s nice to see that you are more accommodating than Tiwaz. Or perhaps you just don’t know what Ricky did when he moved to Finland. 🙂

    Time to repost your FT articles, Ricky?

  11. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Start with decimal numbers and chemistry. Or did these suddenly go out of fashion?

    Have you ever thought about why and how Europeans emerged from the Dark Ages?

  12. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, once you told us the when you moved to Finland you decided to adapt and live the Finnish life to the fullest. So, if I’m wrong, please tell us what kind of cultural appeasement you demanded.

    I’ve been wrong before and had no problem acknowledging, if I’m again I’ll do just the same.

  13. Tony Garcia

    “Nice try, Tony, but it won’t work.”

    Of course it did, that’s why you go so annoyed, it usually happen when you have no where to go, your last paragraph exemplifies it so clearly.

    My point was well made and it’s simple, If you can’t get right about Brazilians (a culture so close to you) how can you get it about Muslims (one so distant)? You can’t, because you just don’t know, you just fell about it. According to you the head of major governments in EU are all wrong. Sorry but they know very well what they are talking about and you, as Steyn said, just fell fluffy about Muslims around us. Sorry mate, this may work well on the assays you read, but not in real life…

    “What do your children think? Do they laugh when you make fun of Muslims?”

    They don’t even know they exist. My children are very well sheltered from “diversity”.

    “Are they all stupid and should be sent to the moon because they didn’t try “hard enough” or adapt to the system? ”

    Sorry but, I won’t answer to childish tantrum.

    • Enrique

      Please explain what I did not get right about the Brazilians. Another red herring out of many, perhaps? Please list the so-called mistakes and we will go over them one by one.
      Thank you.

    • Enrique

      –Sorry but, I won’t answer to childish tantrum.

      The so-called “childish tantrum” you accuse me of is one that would reveal your view of society pretty well. It will reflect on why you are so hostile to Mulsims. That is the reason why you call it a “childish tantrum” and that explains why you won’t answer my question. It is as simple as that.

    • Enrique

      Tony, you asked me why the True Finns are anti-immigrartion to put it lightly. Here is a blog entry by one of the True Finns candidates in 2011 and one of the persons that signed the Nuiva Manifest. Ask your wife to read it for you because it is in Finnish.

      Some people in this blog will be shocked by what this guy, none other than Freddy Van Wonterghem, writes. http://wonterghem.puheenvuoro.uusisuomi.fi/48372-ei-varivikaisille

  14. JusticeDemon

    Ricky

    We obviously have to understand that V. Wonterghem blog entry in context as a commentary on a news item that many people may have missed.

    What we have there, however, is simply a variation on the rooms to let – Irish need not enquire within sign, and it does not matter whether the sign is interpreted as friendly advice.

    The attempt to discourage applications from a population group already satisfies the conditions for unlawful discrimination.

  15. Vedos

    “(1) get plastic surgery, (2) throw away their identity in the gutter (3) speak English like the queen and/or (4) leave/shoot themselves.”

    Well, what’s the difference? Someone wants that to immigrants, other one to the natives. Who’s better? Who’s right? The one that shouts and strikes the hardest? Seems to me you’re doing your part outstandingly.

    I live in Mikkeli. There are more of those spray paintings. There has been since the first somalis arrived in 90’s. You should propably go check around the city, since you’ve missed a few.

    1. If you portray they’ve been just done, show some proof.
    2. If you know there’s some other motive than just to piss off people like you while getting drunk when you’re 15 years because everyone tells you shouldn’t, show some proof.

    Mikkeli is very safe place now. When I was a teen, people got killed by skinheads. Everything kinda stopped when the head of the skinheads got stabbed 20 times with a knife. Every weekend there was +-100 teens at the centrum getting drunk and beating the shit out of each other. None of those that died or got stabbed here then were foreigners. Just Finns fighting Finns.

    Ask the folks at Angela, they’ll tell you. Of all the foreigners here, they took the hardest of shit then. They’re still here and nowadays I don’t know anyone who doesen’t like them. They’ll tell you some paintings don’t mean alot comparing to how it was.

    • Enrique

      Hi Vedos, and welcome to Migrant Tales. The examples above were done to fit Klay’s view of how immigrants should assimilate to their new home. One of the problems when speaking about what the role of immigrants should be in society and their adaption, we should understand the terms; ie what is the difference between assimilation, integration and multiculturalism. It isn’t that easy concepts to understand especially if you are a layman.

      The whole point of the spray paintings in Mikkeli is the apathy of officials like teachers in the face of such disturbing messages. Mikkeli is my hometown and that of many others. I visited the refugee center back in the early 1990s and even wrote a big feature in Apu on it. I got two death threats and one harrassment call as a result.

      Things in Mikkeli have improved greatly since the 1990s but there is still work to be done. The new association, Kansainvälinen Mikkeli, aims to be a forum that promotes a greater sense of community. We are all from Mikkeli irrespective of our diverse backgrounds.

      I hope to see you one day at our meetings. Check out our Facebook site if you wish. Could you tell me where those other spray paintings are located? Thank you.

  16. Vedos

    Sense of community? We don’t need a sense of community. We need jobs. We need security and something in front of us to aim for besides welfare or criminality, drugs and violence. That’s how the 90’s happened, and that’s how it will happen again. Zero sum game. When there’s plenty to spread around, everyone’s peaceful. When people (typically men) have nothing, someone will suffer their downfall. That’s how I did it when I was young, down an out, that’s how it will be done.

    “Sense of community”. Hehe. Maybe if Russians attack again some day, there might be something like that, otherwise only people that have it -or aim for it – are the immigrants. Associations like yours will never reach the common man, simply because the common man in here is an asshole. And I say asshole with all the love.

  17. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘(1) get plastic surgery, (2) throw away their identity in the gutter (3) speak English like the queen and/or (4) leave/shoot themselves.’

    -‘The examples above were done to fit Klay’s view of how immigrants should assimilate to their new home.’

    I love all these cheap jabs at me. Keep them coming, all it does is make you Enrique look more pathetic and your arguments more ridiculous. Would you really revert to this strategy in a civilised intelligent debate? I’m above this immature behaviour.

    Also I liked the way you censored me for simply pointing out the obvious that a certain religious and a certain racial group are behind gang rapes and riots. Feel like I’m under a Jorge Rafael Videla dictatorship. I’ll let people guess who the groups are but no prizes guys, sorry.

    • Enrique

      –I love all these cheap jabs at me. Keep them coming, all it does is make you Enrique look more pathetic and your arguments more ridiculous. Would you really revert to this strategy in a civilised intelligent debate?

      Please, Klay, don’t you have any sense of humor? First you throw these low jabs and make highly insulting comments about other groups and now you blame me? If I were a cartoonist at a newspaper and had to describe your assimilation model, I would use the four examples as a way of pointing how ludicrous your model is. Assimilation is NOT used anywhere and it is not required in any society in the EU.

      If you know the difference between assimilation and integration (I won’t ask you to venture into multiculturalism), then let’s discuss your model for immigrants, which for me and others is a mystery. I haven’t heard one suggestion from you except for “assimilation or bust” to get immigrants more integrated into society.

      All I have been hearing from you, Tony and these so-called anti-mutlitculturalists is a lot of kicking and bitching but no conrete models. If you want to discuss in a civil manner immigration there will be no stigmatizing or labelling whole groups by calling them “rapists.”

      Now the ball is in your court. Make your point.

  18. Klay_Immigrant

    Assimilation is simple. Just integrate into the dominant native culture and not continue your own culture from where you are from. No appearance or name change need apply, but things you can alter such as language, dress, behaviour, customs and interests.

    Ofcourse this won’t take overnight, but as long as the natives see you are making an effort nearly everyone will accept you. You don’t get accepted when you show no effort which multiculturalism promotes you to do. No need to hide where your from either as people will most likely be able to tell simply by looking or interacting with you that you are foreign.

    It has worked for me and others such as Tony with minimum problems. The multiculturalists route has shown many problems to numerous immigrants as shown in this blog.

    • Enrique

      –Assimilation is simple. Just integrate into the dominant native culture and not continue your own culture from where you are from.

      OK, it sounds right and simple. Why then doesn’t it work?

      When you state that it won’t take overnight, do you mean years or generations?

      Certainly there is a case that people of all walks of life have to integrate and be part of society. But don’t you think that there is anything good in diversity? Where does innovation come from? Moreover, assimilation works but it takes a very, very long time – sometimes generations. Or maybe you know of some places where it has taken faster. If you are a child integrating it is relatively easy. I am speaking of a teenager but maybe a young adult upwards. It’s very personal. Some are better at it than others.

      I was seven when I moved to the United States. Before that I had lived in London, Helsinki and Buenos Aires. I was able to adapt pretty fast. However, at the age of 15, I wanted to know about my parents’ cultures. (Argentina and Finland). I am a rare case because few children of immigrants return to their parents’ homeland. Today I can say that I am proud of having all these cultures and experiences inside of me. What has traveling and living in many countries taught me? To be highly adaptive.

      If I may ask Klay, how old where you when you moved to England?

  19. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘OK, it sounds right and simple. Why then doesn’t it work?’

    It does work if someone has the right attitude and motivation.

    -‘When you state that it won’t take overnight, do you mean years or generations?’

    Learning the language will take the longest time. 2-3 years should be sufficient for someone to be at a very good level to be able to cope linguistically at any situation. The rest will take less time to be successfully assimilated but ofcourse the learning process will continue indefinately.

    -‘But don’t you think that there is anything good in diversity?’

    Not in Europe. New World areas such as the Americas, Australia and New Zealand yes as the majority aren’t the indigenous people and the native culture is either corroded away or a combination of other cultures. Anywhere else where the native population is the majority including developing countries diversity is harmful.

    -‘If I may ask Klay, how old where you when you moved to England?’

    A brief history of myslef. Father Sudanese, Mother Spanish. Born in Qatar, moved to Saudi Arabia when 3 years old. Due to 1st Gulf War moved to Spain when 6 years old for 2 years and came back to Saudi Arabia. When 14 went to Boarding school in England with parents staying in Saudi Arabia. When graduated from BSc spent a year each in France, Italy, Spain and Germany. Came back to England to complete my master’s and PhD.

    As you can see I have many years experience living in a strict Islamic Sharia law country so I think I’m in a better position than most to comment on Muslims and their culture.

    • Enrique

      –It does work if someone has the right attitude and motivation.

      Let’s take Finland, where I live. There is an estimated roughly 25% or higher unemployment among immigrants. In some groups it can be higher or lower than the national average, which was 7.3% in August. We have to look at the reasons for unemployment. There are a myriad of factors: employer reluctance, immigrant lack of skills/overskills etc. However, I have a Finnish mother, grew up during the summers in Finland, studied social sciences but in my first 25 years I was never able to land a permanent job. Instead of trying to progress there were always some who tried to place obstacles or exploit me. The way I got around that problems as by having employers abroad like the Financial Times, BBC etc. I have also published three books, given lectures at university level on South American history, etc (I could go on and on) but I never landed a permant job in this country. Today, for the first time I have alomst got such a job. Is it because (a) I did not want to integrate (Finnish mother/lived in Finland/Finnish wife/Finnish-born kids) or (2) was there something in the system that did not work? By the way, every ten years I leave Finland and work as a staffer. My last job was with El Pais and before that as bureau chief for Bridge News in Bogotá and correspontent in Milan. I can get staff jobs outside of Finland but it has been virtually impossible in this country.

      This situation already affects integration. I invest more time with my English employers than with my Finnish ones because I don’t have any to begin with.

      JusticeDemon has lived many years in Finland as well. We even worked at the same company but at different times. He can also tell you a similar story: high academic qualifications but no staff job.

      So, I don’t agree with you that people don’t want to adapt. Certainly everyone wants to and be accepted by society. Some are better than others at it. And as a man from so many cultures, you know what discrimination is all about and how it works. Your hybrid background has helped you overcome these obstacles as well.

      It is strange that you think that diversity cannot work in Europe. I disagree with you on this. You and I are living examples. I don’t know why you have such strong opinions about certain groups. However, you could get even more mileage and bang for your buck so to speak if you thought a little more broadmindedly on such issues. I don’t think it fosters or promotes a sense that I accept myself. This is my personal opinion.

      I don’t mean to pry in your life but I will tell you the greatest discovery that I made: I learned to accept myself and those around me. Certainly there will be jerks from all cultures but if you open up you will notice that it isn’t that bad. It’s more innovtive and bold. After you accept who you are it may be easier to accept others.

      I left California as an adult and went to see the world. Do you know what I saw on that very long journey to Finland? War, hatred, prejudice and polarized societies. Even Finland, where I had grown up in the summers in quiteness and beauty of the countryside with my grandparents, was also traumatized by war and excluded people like me by law. But thanks to my multicultural background I was always able to survive.

      Hablas todavía español? I had to learn it again but that was another great journey into a former language and culture I knew briefly as a child. That is why I told you that one day, probably, you may meet somebody or something will happen that will bring you back to what you once were. But that what you once were is only a maze of different cultures and experiences. It is the farthest thing from what you picture the dominant culture of your country and how others should adapt to it.

      You might have a lot of experience living in Islamic countries and we would be very interested in hearing your views. However, as a social scientist that has studied societies and immigration like a former Finnish colony in Argentina, I can also give you my input about how societies work or don’t work.

      See how we can find a bridge? We cal learn from each other if we set aside our judgemental views of the Other. In the same way we are chatting, others can do as well. How can I say that? Because I have travelled extensively (ever since I was a year old) not only geographically but culturally. People from different cultures can learn, adapt and build bridges between them. Why? Because it is more productive than destroying bridges.

  20. Tony Garcia

    Well how do I start?…

    First my way of seen things where not the Brazilian way, then Brazilians could not be against Muslims because we are immigrants, then we could not be against them because the Syrian-Lebanese immigration, then immigrants where in favelas, then not immigrants but blacks where in favelas and there are there because they are lazy and didn’t integrate.

    As well explained all wrong.

    Now I checked, according to stat.fi Mikkeli has about 50K people but only 1K is non Finnish/Swedish speaking, of course you need to count Russians + Europeans in this number, so I wonder how many Muslims are living in Mikkeli. But yet you know then very well, much better than the French and German government witch have a few millions of them around… I see…

  21. Tony Garcia

    “That is the reason why you call it a “childish tantrum” that you won’t answer.”

    I do answer, I answer more your questions than you do mine. The problem is that for you the truth is secondary, what really matter is if it will offend Muslims, well many times the truth offends but it is still the truth. If you are uncomfortable with it, well too bad…

    • Enrique

      –The problem is that for you the truth is secondary, what really matter is if it will offend Muslims

      Tony, please, let’s not cross that line… I am going to count to ten and exit.

  22. Tony Garcia

    “I can get staff jobs outside of Finland but it has been virtually impossible in this country. ”

    First let me say that I have no joy hearing this, but aren’t you a teacher in Finland?

    “So, I don’t agree with you that people don’t want to adapt.”

    Some people just don’t, and you don’t have to agree with it to make it truth.

    “It is strange that you think that diversity cannot work in Europe. I disagree with you on this. You and I are living examples.”

    The problem is not what you are or where you come from, but what you do when you get there…

    “In some groups it can be higher or lower than the national average”

    Why is that?

    “Some are better than others at it. ”

    Oh, thanks, you found the answer…

    • Enrique

      –The problem is not what you are or where you come from, but what you do when you get there…

      Exactly, so let’s stop labelling and judging people by their religion and ethnicity and stick to their skills. I think that is very fair. When we hire people we hire them because of their skills not because of their ethnic background.

  23. Tony Garcia

    Sorry Enrique, I’m not trying to offend you, please believe me, but that’s what I see that happens. I bring facts here and rather then debate it your bring the whole sentimental issue – “Haven’t you learned not to offend people?”

    Well if the truth offends, so be it…

    “When we hire people we hire them because of their skills…”

    sorry you missed “and attitude” in your phase…

    “…and ethnicity…”, “…their ethnic background.”

    I really annoys me when you bring race to the discussion. I wonder if you do that on purpose…

    • Enrique

      –I really annoys me when you bring race to the discussion. I wonder if you do that on purpose…

      Don’t you think that skills are the most important thing when getting a person to do the job? Certainly attitude as well but I suspect it means something different for you and me.

  24. Tony Garcia

    “Don’t you think that skills are the most important thing when getting a person to do the job?”

    You have a restaurant and one chef to cook breakfast, but now you need a second one. You want to have one guy Monday to Thursday and another from Friday to Sunday. How good can a chef be for you, even an excellent one, if he can’t cook pork because his religion?

    • Enrique

      Why do you always bring the Muslim issue into the discussion? So you are stating that if you hire a Muslim you can’t allow him to cook pork? If he is a good cook I would respect his culture and if he does not want to cook pork that’s not an issue. It depends on my budget. One matter that I notice from people who are always on Muslims’ cases is that they search for problems. It is like you want to pick out a fight even though it isn’t necessary.

      If it isn’t an issue with anyone why make it into one?

  25. Tony Garcia

    “Why do you always bring the Muslim issue into the discussion?”

    Because they are the problem.

    “So you are stating that if you hire a Muslim you can’t allow him to cook pork? ”

    Don’t spin. They don’t want to cook pork.

    “If he is a good cook I would respect his culture and if he does not want to cook pork that’s not an issue.”

    So, 3 days a week, you would remove pork from the menu because your chef won’t cook it because it’s against his religion? And this in a 21st century modern society? What you would you say to your customers?

    “If it isn’t an issue with anyone why make it into one?”

    It’s to them…

    • Enrique

      –Because they are the problem.

      Why is it a problem and why do you have such an issue with living with people who have different customs. Have you been to a Finnish cafeteria? There is everything for vegetarians, people with alergies etc. My question is why is it a problem for you? Again you commit a huge error: you judge others by your own values. You can do that as long as you like but you will never overcome that issue because that is not the way it is solved. You will always run iinto problems and conflicts.

      Don’t turn it into a problem if you don’t have to. Very easy thing. Is the Muslim forcing you to eat Halal and not to cook pork?

    • Enrique

      I apologize and don’t mean any offence by what I am going to say: In Brazil, is that how things are done in Brazil with people who live in poverty? They must accept the very rules that have impoverished them (social inequality, lack of interest by the government etc)?

  26. Tony Garcia

    “I apologize and don’t mean any offence by what I am going to say”

    Don’t worry, not taken.

    “In Brazil, is that how things are done in Brazil…”

    Everyone has to accept the rules and laws passed by the democratically elected congress.

    Once again you dodged very well but escaped from the main issue. I made a very simple question and you didn’t answer.

    Would you employ the Muslim chef and remove pork from the menu 3 days per week? What would you say to your customers?

    • Enrique

      –“In Brazil, is that how things are done in Brazil…”

      Maybe this is the problem, then. In Europe as you well know we have different laws that not only are supposed to protect minotiry rights on a group and individual level, but even encourage it. This means that the Brazilian model or even Argentinean would never be applicable here. Things are just done differently.

      Speaking about dodging questions, I asked you why are the Muslims such an issue with you? Are they threatening you and our society? I don’t see that way.

      If I had a big restaurant and enough turnover to have such a cook because he gives me value on other matters, why not. It is all a question of being flexible and turning lemons into lemonade.

      A while back I pointed out some things in Ireland and you said that black people (Nigerians) had some problems. But isn’t it interesting that there is NO anti-immigration party in the country? I think it has to do with the fact that the Irish have understood that there is value in diversity. This does not mean that the Irish are eating Polish sausages but they are there if you want them.

      I think the flaw in your model is what you said: adapt or bust. That type of model was tried and has never worked unless you want to wait for generations. In the Brazilian model there are a lot of problems like that of social inequality. It is also an issue in Argentina and many Latin American countries. It proves that these societies have failed their citizens.

  27. Tony Garcia

    “If I had a big restaurant and enough turnover…”

    That wasn’t the case, the example was very well explained, and look how far you go – Brazil, Argentina, Ireland, but yet no direct answer.

    “That type of model was tried and has never worked unless you want to wait for generations.”

    Interesting, aren’t you who says that we should accept Muslims because culture changes and theirs will eventually change as well?

    • Enrique

      Tony, in complex matters like immigration and on matters like adaption you ave to look at the context and the law, right? Everything has to be put in context and in many cases there isn’t a black and white answer.

      –Interesting, aren’t you who says that we should accept Muslims because culture changes and theirs will eventually change as well?

      Yes, but I am not talking about assimilation. Use your logic. Don’t you think that by accepting and granting opportunity you will get much more results than from forcing and coersion? I think I told you that this applies in the world place as well. When you lived in the United States did you ever see how diversity is managed in multinational companies? Did you ever take a course in diversity management? A good manager inspires and leads by example. You want lousy results: intimidate and enforce from top down.

      I believe you don’t have a firm enough idea how societies work. You think that all that is needed is to assimilate (leave one’s culture, dress, ways behind one-way adaption) and presto matter solved. If it were that easy, it would have been done long ago.

      Moreover, there is no longer such a thing as a prototype Irishman or European because we are aready mixed culturally and ethnically. Muslims are Europeans.This means that there is no way of making Irish society look like it did in the 1950s. Every period has a different culture.

      In other words, you have to accept the new reality, laws and way of our society. By being anti-Muslim won’t get you there at all because that runs against our values (laws, Constitutions etc). It is as simple as that. No matter how many examples you give nothing will change because what you see is what we have. So instead of trying to change it to conform society to a model that no longer exists (or never existed), why not take that pill and accept how things are and try to make them better?

  28. Tony Garcia

    You asked if skills aren’t more important than attitude. I gave a simple, but clear, example on how attitude can overshadow skills. You spin it as much as you could and didn’t touch the subject at all.

    Sorry but my point remains absolutely valid, skills are essential but without the right attitude, forget it…

  29. Tony Garcia

    “Yes, but I am not talking about assimilation”

    Exactly, according to you both will happen, assimilation and cultural changes, and both will take time, but, once you are interested in social-reengineer Finland, assimilation is never an option.

    “You want lousy results: intimidate and enforce from top down.”

    What results will you have if you tell your 13 engineers that the sauna party will be cancelled because it’s against the religion of one? That kind of example you’ll never touch.

    “If it were that easy, it would have been done long ago.”

    Who said is hasn’t? It have been done many times and with plenty of success, how many well adapted-assimilated successful immigrants we have in this very same blog? The difference is that for you it’s all about what the country must do, for me it’s all about what the immigrant must do. When the immigrant try assimilation, it works very well.

    “By being anti-Muslim won’t get you there at all…”

    I’m not the one living in ghettos and hated just by everyone blow the sum, I don’t see my children being laugh at in school, I don’t see people pointing finger at me just about everyday.

    Whatever I’m, it has given me, and my family, a very pleasant and comfortable life. Others could have the same, we live in a free country, it’s all about consider the legal/wise combination carefully.

    • Enrique

      —assimilation and cultural changes,

      I never mentioned assimilation. It was more in line with integration/adaption.

      –What results will you have if you tell your 13 engineers that the sauna party will be cancelled because it’s against the religion of one? That kind of example you’ll never touch.

      It sucks, right? Why not anticipate what would be ok for everyone instead of creating a conflict situation?

      –Who said is hasn’t? It have been done many times and with plenty of success, how many well adapted-assimilated successful immigrants we have in this very same blog?

      Yes but no. The difference is that society permits me to embrace my identity. And my identity isn’t that different from the majority like your case in Ireland. So we are cheating on this one. Let’s get more extreme and put into the picture visible minorities.

      –I’m not the one living in ghettos and hated just by everyone blow the sum, I don’t see my children being laugh at in school, I don’t see people pointing finger at me just about everyday.

      I understand you want to protect your children. That’s fine. Don’t you think that the parents of those children who you claim are laughted at also want the best for their children? I call that harrassment and bullying. It is a serious school problem. In Finland they take it very seriously. But should we always live in fear for being different?

      Your success model applies to you and others. We have to be careful in applying our success models on everyone else. Remember what you said: It works better for some than for others. However, in society we attempt to include as many as possible.

  30. Tony Garcia

    ” why not take that pill and accept how things”

    Sorry but I’d recommend it for you, after your said that major EU government are wrong on Muslims, you need to accept things as they are.

  31. Tony Garcia

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/2010/10/mies_kaipaa_miesta_kaveriksi_2070744.html

    There is an example. Law and constitution alone won’t help us, we need to be part of this society and interact with Finns in a daily bases. But how can we do that if we insist in piss them off?

    There is no laws that forces the Finns to like us or be our friends, it’s up to us to make ourselves acceptable. If you want the Finns to change what they believe is acceptable or not, I’d suggest – don’t hold your breath.

    • Enrique

      –There is an example. Law and constitution alone won’t help us, we need to be part of this society and interact with Finns in a daily bases. But how can we do that if we insist in piss them off?

      True and I think many, many immigrants that live in Finland want to meet more Finnish people and interact with them. Most Finns are pretty cool and one does not have to walk on tiptoes culturally. We have a lot of Iraqis now in Mikkeli. Many of the women don’t wear scarves while some do. It is not an issue at the school I work at or in the city for a matter of fact.

      True nobody can force anyone (immigrants and the hosts) to love and accept each other. But we have a good program at the school where I work and I get Finns and our immigrant students to ask open questions about each other every two weeks. Any question goes. We spoke about how couples meet, what is acceptable and not, why do Finns drink, why do Mulsims eat Halal etc. I think it is a beginning to get to know each other. This type of interaction causes a lot of good in the long and short-term.

  32. Tony Garcia

    “It sucks, right? Why not anticipate what would be ok for everyone instead of creating a conflict situation?”

    Really, you have so much experience in how think must be done, so teach us. 13 engineers want to have drinking during the team celebrations one doesn’t, not only for himself but also for the others. This is a real life clear and simple example, please gives a clear and simple answer, not rhetoric, what would you do in this case? We are waiting…

    “So we are cheating on this one.”

    No I’m not. In Finland anyone can tell I’m not a Finn just by looking at my face. I’m 100% physically visible.

    “…also want the best for their children?” “But should we always live in fear for being different? ”

    Do something about it, stop being different, we live in a free country. No one is forced to be different.

    “We have to be careful in applying our success models on everyone else. ”

    Bingo, twice today you hit the nail in the head. The problem is not the model but some groups of immigrants.

    • Enrique

      With the case of the person in the engineer example you cannot force anyone to take part in anything. This is a bit like with the model you have for society that everyone has to take part. As a manager your job is to anticipate and ensure that everyone is included. That doesn’t take any brains it is common sense. Did you kinow that Muslims don’t like to be in the nude with other people? If you didn’t it was your mistake in my opinion if you were organizing the event.

      –Do something about it, stop being different, we live in a free country. No one is forced to be different.

      I guess this is a bit like the argument on being gay in our society. Why not stay in the closet, right? We are who we are and a good thing is accepting that. I think it is a healthy way of thinking.

    • Enrique

      Here is a passage from James Hirvisaari’s Facebook page where he accuses Muslims of everything under the sun. Do you Tony think that this type of racist bravado fosters anything positive? As you know, he is running for MP in the April 2011 election. His party? True Finns.

      His trial for ethnic incitement begins in Lahti 10.11.2010. Aparlogies for publishing this hateful text that I will not translate to English. I publish it so that others could see what some True Finns think of other people.

      “Valitettavasti hillittömän muslimimaahanmuuton myötä Suomessakin tulee olemaan lisääntyvässä määrin myös ihka aitoa rasismia, joka kohdistuu varsinkin juutalaisiin mutta myös kantaväestöön ja muihin etnisiin ryhmiin. Ja kaupan päälle syrjintää, sietämätöntä ylimielisyyttä ja huonoa käytöstä, vihaa, naisten alistamista, lasten silpomista, seksuaalista häiriköintiä ja vähemmistöjen vainoa, mellakointia, lippujen polttelua, älämölöä, huumeita, ryöstelyä, raiskausrikoksia, pedofiliaa, polygamiaa, lapsiavioliittoja, häpeäväkivaltaa, rituaaliteurastuksia, ruoskimisrangaistuksia, kivityksiä ynnä muita läpeensä inhottavia ja umpikieroutuneita tapoja ja ilmiöitä. Lopulta jopa itsemurhapommituksia ja terrorismia. Siis jos emme tanssi tasan tarkkaan heidän pillinsä mukaan.”

    • Enrique

      One more point about Hirvisaari and company is that they have changed their tactics recentlyt by targetting only Muslims. This is a red herring because their hate message is intended for everyone that is different from them. So, if you are not from the North Pole, have blue eyes and look like some Finns, you are a target of their xenophobic message.

  33. xyz

    13 engineers want to have drinking during the team celebrations one doesn’t
    -If you whole team jumps from the 4th floor. Would you jump as well?

    Do something about it, stop being different, we live in a free country. No one is forced to be different.
    -What do you suggest about having different skin color and a different name?

  34. Tony Garcia

    Enrique I’m really impressed. You really solved the two problems brilliantly. You turned Muslim intolerance to be our intolerance. Where did you learn such amazing skills? Was it in one of those diversity awareness courses in the US?

    So I didn’t know solve the problems was so easy, If Muslim don’t want to cook pork we just say we are forcing him to eat it. If Muslim don’t want us to celebrate with drink we just say we are forcing him to drink.

    Presto, you did solve the problem didn’t you? So ease, isn’t? We planed the celebration wrongly didn’t? Even though the team have been doing this for years before he arrived, but at the end, some how, it’s still our fault isn’t? Amazing… totally amazing…

    Sarcasm apart, you are actually totally right, there is no way to deal with Muslim intolerance except the way you did. Cynically turning it to be ours. Forgetting what really happen and creating a whole new situation on witch we are the wrong. There is no other way…

    But Enrique, let me thank you for that, I told you before I use a lot your blog as source when talking to people, not only me but many folks from the Tampere branch. The arson article was practically productive I can assure you.

    Now i can tell you this conversation we just have will travel far and wide…

    • Enrique

      –Even though the team have been doing this for years before he arrived, but at the end, some how, it’s still our fault isn’t?

      Times change and circumstances change. Learn to adapt to the new situation. I don’t mean to be offensive, but you are always speaking about how others don’t adapt… Are you sure that you are not very adapted to the European cultural diverse society?

  35. Tony Garcia

    ” So, if you are not from the North Pole, have blue eyes and look like some Finns, you are a target of their xenophobic message in waiting.”

    Really? What tell you that? You highly accurate psychic ability?

  36. Tony Garcia

    “Here is a passage from James Hirvisaari’s ”

    As I said I don’t know James enough but everything you brought up from him so far is dead right. First he talks about the price of immigration only using government numbers, not secretive sources. Now this peace on Muslims is just right, they do exactly what he writes in there, but as we have seen here last 2 days, in the multicultural mindset, we are actually forcing them to do everything James is saying they do. Some how, at the end, it’s all our fault…

    • Enrique

      Tony, hold your horses… “Multicultural mindset?” What is that? Do you mean our society as we know it, comprised of different cultures, where the state defends groups and individuals rights? Is that what you are talking about? What are you talking about? A society without these values and one that does not even exist?

      Good, you can relate to Hirvisaari. Are you consulting your company on diversity issues?

  37. Tony Garcia

    Let me report a third real case (reported by the Sunday times on July 2010) of Muslim intolerance.

    In the UK, Muslims bus drivers are refusing blind people with guide dogs into their buses because they believe dog is an unclean animal.

    Now I ask anyone here who has been in one of those diversity awareness courses in the US how we solve this. Shall we just say that blind people are forcing Muslims to buy dogs? That could solve the problem couldn’t?

    Or perhaps shall we say that blind people didn’t plan very well when decided to get blind in a cultural diverse country?

    Or even better, just ignore I have posted this, don’t reply to it, and pretend it never happened?

    I need a help here, please…

    • Enrique

      –Let me report a third real case (reported by the Sunday times on July 2010) of Muslim intolerance.

      When you speak of Muslim intolerance you are also including yourself, right?

  38. JusticeDemon

    xyz

    That is a slam-dunk debunking, but don’t expect Tony to even understand it, let alone draw conclusions about certain sections of the media.

  39. Tony Garcia

    “Times change and circumstances change. Learn to adapt to the new situation.”

    Unbelievable, you’ll defend the indefensible no matter what…

  40. Tony Garcia

    “Is that what you are talking about? What are you talking about? ”

    I’m talking about a culture of appeasement toward intolerant Muslims. Thing that you have done here brilliantly for the last 2 days. One way or another they will always be the victim.

    • Enrique

      –I’m talking about a culture of appeasement toward intolerant Muslims.

      Appeasement is a word that Tiwaz uses. But could you tell us how you would handle this case you menitoned and what results you expect to get?

  41. Tony Garcia

    “When you speak of Muslim intolerance you are also including yourself, right?”

    Good one, but how about get to the facts?

  42. Tony Garcia

    “Appeasement is a word that Tiwaz uses.”

    I checked in the dictionary, it’s actually a English word, but as I said before it would be silly for me to engage with you in a debate about English language.

    “But could you tell us how you would handle this case…”

    The same way the line manager did… “You are welcome to join us, you don’t need to drink and go to sauna (Tony usually doesn’t go), if you have a problem with pork we can order some food without it, but I won’t prevent those who wants to drink from doing so.”

    “…what results you expect to get?”

    From a Muslim? No compromise…

    • Enrique

      Tony, are you trying to fight a battle during the company’s semi-leisure time? Nobody will win and that is why the model employed was a failure. In Finland men like to drink after sauna and that is fine if it is accepted. However, if you are the guest or the host it needs some understanding of the situation. Instead of this something else could have been chosen that would have included everyone. It is not such a tough call. Just a big of flexibility and understanding from the host.

  43. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    Would you say that a female engineer should be entitled to object when there is every likelihood that her career prospects will be damaged by declining to attend “bonding sessions” that involve collective nude bathing, heavy drinking and ribald humour?

    The example that you are discussing is not so different.

    There is also a clear danger of actionable discrimination when an employer subsidises off-duty activities in the knowledge that some of the staff cannot participate in those activities.

  44. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, are you trying to fight a battle during the company’s semi-leisure time?”

    Is this what is happening? look what you are saying, be honest with yourself, is that really that case? Is this what you call an open and honest debate? How sad.

    Sorry Enrique, but I’ll stop this debate here. it’s taking us nowhere.

    You say there was no flexibility from the manager, but this is a complete non-sense, and I’m totally sure you know that. You just can’t acknowledge here. You won’t ever lower your guard, we know that, but you know the Muslim has gone too far.

    This is an absurd case of intolerance and arrogance from a Muslim trying to change the way all behave and you still see it as your fault. Do you really think this attitude of yours helps the life of immigrants? Do you think you are building bridges by being absurdly one-sided? Who will this help?

    Anyway, this debate has given me already plenty of material to work with, so I’m quite happy.

    • Enrique

      –You won’t ever lower your guard, we know that, but you know the Muslim has gone too far.

      What was the end result: failure and conflict. Isn’t that enough?

    • Enrique

      Tony, one more thing. I think your way of presenting your points and then threatening to use my responses as “pathetic examples of a multiculturalist” only shows what the problem is at your work. You claim that you are highly adaptive and are willing to do so but then when there is one Muslim who does not like to drink and see men naked you go blaming him. You live in Ireland, a pretty civilized country that has learned to reap the benefits from diversity and interculturalism.

      Do you really grasp what it means to live in a diverse modern society? Is European diversity similar to Brazil’s?

  45. Tony Garcia

    “Just a big of flexibility and understanding from the host.”

    How do you think the blind people with guide dogs should show flexibility and understanding?

  46. Tony Garcia

    Am I the problem? Is that so? Do you want to talk about being flexible, let’s talk.

    How about if he could go there sit if us for a while? There was plenty of food and drink he could take. Not all of us used to drink, some were driving and some like me, only takes one small bottle. Not all was going to sauna, many times we were joined by the test and localization team, so plenty of women and immigrants. Many didn’t go to sauna, just stay in the lobby eating, drinking and chatting. I don’t like binge drinking so, I used to stay for about 3 hours tops, before the party gets to “wide”. So plenty of option for him to socialize with us and still keep away from the drunkenness or be naked. Why not doing that? Why be so stubborn and intolerant?

    You talk about understand and coupe with our differences, well what a excellent place for that . People drinking, not drinking, going to sauna, not going to sauna. All different people in the same place enjoin a few hours together. Having different people around was a problem just to one person.

    But his attitude is not what disappoint me the most, but yours. Do you know why? Because you know I’m right. For someone trying to build bridges, someone who wants us to understand and coupe with our differences, my friend, defending this guy attitude, just because you can’t acknowledge that a Muslims is wrong, is not the best way to achieve those goals.

  47. Tony Garcia

    The pathetic examples of multiculturalism doesn’t come from you but another contributor of this blog. I don’t mean be offensive to you, but from you it comes double standards, just look at our last debate.

    But yes, we constantly using your blog when campaign to keep Finland the way it is through a tighter immigration policy. And it has been very useful. The article about the arson attach has been particularly productive. And not to convince young skin-heads but people like my wife’s uncle and aunt. They have been very disturbed not by the article itself but it has already given a motive without knowing the suspects and when Christians churches are also attached. The comment area is priceless.

    • Enrique

      My concern about all this Islamophobia is that it can get out of hand. If you are honest with yourself, you know that there is always a danger of targeting other people and groups. I personally am very concerned by what I am seeing in Finland but I also have hope that Finns will not fall for what they are saying. This would be good for everyone. And it would create those important pathways of incorporation to our society.

  48. Tony Garcia

    I wonder if you will touch the case of blind people in the UK. I wonder if you just believe a paper like the Times would risk to pick a fight with Muslim Council of Brittan and fabricate an article totally out of thin air, or you know this is another example is how intolerant Muslims are and you don’t want to face such a inconvenience again…

  49. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    Get this: the Sunday Times made up the story. The Mail copied it from the Sunday Times. The question in the House of Lords was based solely on these stories in the media.

    Your example is based on a piece of spectacularly unprofessional journalism. You are now similarly at fault for not even bothering to read the comprehensive debunking to which xyz directed you.

    Worst of all, this pattern in your contributions to this blog is so well-established that I openly predicted what you would do (posting at 10.46 a.m.).

  50. JusticeDemon

    One issue that came up in the debunking article that was too difficult for Tony to understand was the attitude of taxi drivers to carrying dogs.

    This put me in mind of an incident several years ago when my dog got a piece of wood jammed between his back teeth. The dog was so distressed that there was no option but to take him to the vet for an anaesthetic so that we could remove the obstruction. Due to the urgency of the situation, I telephoned all of the local vets and eventually found one that could treat the dog immediately. I then called a taxi to take us there.

    The taxi driver was most unhappy about carrying a dog and lectured me on the need to tell the taxi booking service in advance that there would be a dog on board. I understood that the main objection was that other taxi passengers may suffer from allergies (although there were no indications that this particular taxi was especially non-allergenic). Eventually the taxi driver agreed to carry us, because the dog was in evident distress and the journey was only about five kilometres.

    After we got out of the taxi and paid the fare, I actually saw the driver take a battery-operated vacuum cleaner out of the car boot in order to clean the back seat.

    Since that time I have made a point of calling the direct-to-cab number when I have to take the dog anywhere in a hurry, and stating clearly that there will be a dog on board.

  51. Klay_Immigrant

    In 2006, Muslim minicab driver Abdul Rasheed Majekodumni was fined £200 and ordered to pay £1,200 costs by magistrates in Marylebone, central London, after being prosecuted for failing to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act when he refused to take a blind passenger because her guide dog was ‘unclean’.

    Tell me JusticeDemon is this another example in your eyes of a debunking article.

  52. Klay_Immigrant

    ‘Abdul Rasheed Majekodumni told Jane Vernon she could not get into his car with the dog because of his religion.’

    ‘After the case Mr Majekodunmi remained defiant and insisted that he would continue refusing passengers accompanied by guide dogs.’

    ‘Drivers who refuse to take a guide dog can lose their licence or get a fine’

    ‘Mrs Vernon supported-another blind woman who was refused a taxi ride take the case to court. Bernie Reddington, 37, had asked driver Basir Miah for a lift home after a hospital appointment at Great Ormond Street but he had refused, calling her dog “dirty”. Horseferry Magistrates Court found him guilty of breaching the terms of his licence and fined him £150 plus £250 compensation.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-408912/Unclean-guide-dog-banned-Muslim-cab-driver.html

    • Enrique

      –Abdul Rasheed Majekodumni told Jane Vernon she could not get into his car with the dog because of his religion.

      So what is the issue? All Muslims shouldn’t be taxi drivers or a generous dose of your opinions of the latter? This is one matter that really gets me about ultra-conservative views of cultural diversity: Everything that is different is turned into a huge issue. It is as if you were looking to pick a fight and conflict just because it is fun. That, I believe, is what describes the ultra-conservative view pretty well.

      Why is it important to make a huge issue of a problem that can be resolved in a civil manner? Own identity issues in society? Get political brownie points? Feel included event though you are excluded? Are your opinions a reflection of adaption to our European way of life?

  53. Klay_Immigrant

    So now that it has been proved via prosecution by court that some Muslim drivers refuse entry of guide dogs into mini cabs because of their religious beliefs, it’s safe to say that their beliefs wouldn’t change if driving a bus instead. A guide dog would remain ‘unclean’ or ‘dirty’ in any location.

  54. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony take this advice when debating with Enrique, JustcieDemon, xyz and co. YOU CANNOT REASON WITH THE UNREASONABLE.

    The guide dog and Muslim drivers debate is one of the many examples on how far they will go to protect Muslims and their culture/religion even though court prosecutions have shown them to be in complete denial.

  55. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    How do you feel about my policy of advising the driver (or at least the taxi booking service) in advance when I want to travel with my dog? Should this be necessary in Finland? Or am I trying too hard to assimilate by appeasing these bastard Finnish taxi drivers?

  56. Klay_Immigrant

    I find it very hard to believe that a respected broadsheet newspaper as The Sunday Times is would invent a false story on such a sensitive subject that could offend a whole community and religion.

    It’s already been established by myself in no uncertain terms that in very similar cases such behaviour has taken place and not even been apologised for or regretted by the culprit involved.

  57. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    So you also didn’t read the debunking article?

    Nor are you aware that the ST is a Murdoch rag from the same stable as The Sun and the News of the World. The reputation of which you speak certainly dates from before 1981, and arguably from the Beer-Harmsworth period or earlier.

    Would you cite the ST as a reliable source in your thesis?

  58. Klay_Immigrant

    Look JusticeDemon the taxi driver still took you albeit reluctantly even though he/she was never informed about the dog. He/she compromised something a Muslim in a similar position wouldn’t have if they had a problem to begin with even to a blind person.

    The reason why advance notification is recommended is mainly for practical reasons as certain vehicles if available would be more appropiate. The same scenario would apply if were travelling with four or more people.

    • Enrique

      –He/she compromised something a Muslim in a similar position wouldn’t have if they had a problem to begin with even to a blind person.

      This is the problem: one case all Muslims.

  59. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘I wonder how Finnish grocery shops or restaurants would react to a guide horse?’

    Why stop at a guide horse, how about a guide lion or a guide elephant. I don’t see the point in that statement, just being childish and silly. It’s as if your poking fun at the blind for not needing a guide dog to move around, like it was a chiwawa dog in some tart’s handbag.

  60. Tony Garcia

    “Tony take this advice when debating with Enrique, JustcieDemon, xyz and co”

    Klay, thanks for the advice but I thought you have noticed already, I don’t debate Demon or xyz. I don’t waste my time with them.

    “I wonder how Finnish grocery shops or restaurants would react to a guide horse?”

    See? that’s why.

    • Enrique

      –Klay, thanks for the advice but I thought you have noticed already, I don’t debate Demon or xyz. I don’t waste my time with them.

      Isn’t that why you are here? To put forth your views and to debate them? Or is Migrant Tales an extreme example of one-way assimilation? I hope not. Answer the questions. If you think they are misguided say so and defend your turf. Don’t run away from them.

  61. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘So you also didn’t read the debunking article?’

    I read it, sure further questions have to be asked as nothing is concrete but that doesn’t mean the story as a whole is false. Just needs further investigation.

  62. JusticeDemon

    Well that solves the problem for Finland then, as for all practical purposes taxis are controlled from a booking centre. If a driver at a taxi rank takes off when she sees me approaching with my dog, then I can fairly assume that she was responding to a call from the booking centre.

    In the case that I described the driver was evidently torn between concern for other passengers and concern for the dog. I am quite sure that he would have called another vehicle in a less urgent situation.

  63. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    OK – so tell us how the ST headline was justified by the factual content of the story in that bus driver article. What further investigation could justify such an obvious lie?

  64. Tony Garcia

    “My concern about all this Islamophobia is that it can get out of hand. ”

    Enrique, You keep saying that the only way to tackle racism is by taking the bull by the horns, why is intolerance from Muslims different? Do you think the way you responded to those 3 cases of Muslim intolerance helps increase or decrease islamophibia?

    “So what is the issue?”

    The issue is that blind people are being prevented to get into buses or taxi if there is a Muslim driver or, apparently even Muslim passengers.

    “Are your opinions a reflection of adaption to our European way of life?”

    Now you tell us, how should blind people adapt to this European way of life?

    “This is the problem: one case all Muslims.”

    Enrique, please don’t so that.

    • Enrique

      –why is intolerance from Muslims different?

      Is it? I think we have pretty good laws that defend people’s rights in our society. Your argument that all or most Muslims are a bunch of extremist is wrong and misplaced. It does not foster anything positive nor does it help build bridges. You don’t think that immigrants suffer in our societies? That discrimination is real? It is very real and it is the one that will impoverish us as it is doing now.

      About Klay’s and your adaption to our way of life, I meant your extreme views of religious groups like the Muslims. If you have issues with them you have also issues with other groups and minorities in our society.

  65. Tony Garcia

    “Isn’t that why you are here? To put forth your views and to debate them? ”

    I’m here to debate opinions that I don’t agree with but it doesn’t mean I will respond to idiotic comments. I respond to everything you write, although I don’t agree with you in most cases.

  66. Tony Garcia

    “If you have issues with them you have also issues with other groups and minorities in our society.”

    See? That’s what you do. You create things from thin air. Does it help? You may think so.

    “Is it? ”

    For me no, but why you do you get hard on racism and so ease on Intolerance from Muslims? Why not get hard on both?

    Be honest, when people reads your comments on racism and how you responded to those 3 cases from Muslims, do you think they will say “well… OK them” or “what the hell”?

    Do you think getting hard on Finns and ease on Muslims increase or decrease islamophobia? What do you think have more impact on people, halla-aho or I criticizing Muslims, when all know we don’t like them, or you excusing them unconditionally?

    You don’t need to answer it here because we know you can’t lower your guard, but please answer it to yourself.

  67. Klay_Immigrant

    It all boils down to conflicts of interests with Muslims. As a taxi or bus driver a Muslim should agree to transport guide dogs and if they are not willing to then they shouldn’t be hired. But then people like Enrique would complain that they were beind discriminated even though it has been established they cannot perform their job to the same capacity.

    The same applies to an example Tony used, a Muslim chef should be able to cook pork and non-halal meat and if not willing to shouldn’t be hired as they cannot perform their job to the same capacity. But then Enrique and co. would complain for the same reasons.

    If these kind of people are hired then they will either lose customers (blind people, pork eaters) or extra money would have to be used to carry out the duties a Muslim wouldn’t do. A lose lose situation for the employer and illogical business strategy.

    • Enrique

      should be able to cook pork and non-halal meat and if not willing to shouldn’t be hired as they cannot perform their job to the same capacity.

      Yes, I love that “should” word. At least you didn’t say “must.”

  68. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony imagine the outcry from Enrique and co. if a Finnish taxi driver had been convicted in court for refusing to transport a veiled Muslim woman. Enrique you wouldn’t accept that as easily as you just have with a Muslim driver refusing to transport a guide dog? Admit it.

    • Enrique

      Klay, your logic leads you to the same problem. By the way, a taxi driver murdered and raped a young woman in my hometown. Should I, like you and Tony, conclude that all taxi drivers are rapists and murderers? Imagine the outcry it would have caused if the driver were Muslim. You see, Klay, your arguments are pretty much on thin ice.

      I am surprised and disappointed that after that string I sent you about your hybrid identity that you respond with narrow-minded concepts of the Other. It is sad but I believe that one day you will wake up and see that those ideas will only delay tapping your full potential.

  69. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    … if a Finnish taxi driver had been convicted in court for refusing to transport a veiled Muslim woman.

    This is fair comment.

    But should she be required to tell the taxi booking centre in advance?

  70. Tony Garcia

    “if a Finnish taxi driver had been convicted in court for refusing to transport a veiled Muslim woman.”

    Are you crazy? The hell would break loose…

    “By the way, a taxi driver murdered and raped a young woman in my hometown.”

    What this got to do what the whole topic? No one is saying Muslims can’t be taxi drivers, and you know that. You are just, again, getting away from the issue. They are discrimination against blind people, that’s the topic. If it’s too uncomfortable for you to debate, just leave it, but please lets keep the debate honest. But if you want to debate please tell us, how should blind people adapt to this? Should they wait the next bus?

    The same goes to the chef, don’t spin that we are forcing Muslim to eat pork. That’s not the case, if he’s a the only chef on duty and the restaurant serves pork, it’s his job to cook it, if he doesn’t he should be fired. That’s the topic, debate it or leave it alone, but please don’t spin it.

  71. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘By the way, a taxi driver murdered and raped a young woman in my hometown’

    This is where the comparison is wrong. Did the taxi driver do those crimes in the name of Finland or Finnish culture or the Lutheran branch of Christianity? No. That’s the difference.

  72. Tony Garcia

    “Muslims drivers refused to transport guide dogs in the name of Islam.”

    And can play the race/religious card to get away with it.

    • Enrique

      Ok, so where is this all taking us? That society is biased, appeases Muslims and is unfair to white people? Oy vey!

  73. Tony Garcia

    “Ok, so where is this all taking us?”

    To the reality, that to many people Muslims are untouchable. When they act wrongly you’ll always pretend it’s not happening.

  74. Klay_Immigrant

    Hit the nail on the spot Enrique and you have shown it time after time. You brushed the notion that some Muslim drivers not taking guide dogs as nothing. Would you have done the same if some Finnish drivers refused to take veiled Muslims? Ofcourse not.

  75. Tony Garcia

    “You brushed the notion that some Muslim drivers not taking guide dogs as nothing.”

    Maybe blind people should be tolerant and adapt to the European way of life. They can always take the next bus or wait for the next taxi, can’t they?

  76. Klay_Immigrant

    All I ask for Enrique is for you not exercise double standards. How many times have I used those words with you, quite a few times. Even if you use the same ideology with everyone that I disagree with at least your being consistent and not making it up as you go along.

    • Enrique

      Talking about “double standards,” I suggest that if you feel so strongly about living among such injustice you do something about it. There are some parties like the BNP in England but Tony is in a bind because there is no similar party in Ireland. Life must be hard. What a victim you guys. But both of you can cry on my shoulder whenever you wish. 🙂

  77. Klay_Immigrant

    Yup Tony, blind people are disabled and should be treated as second class citizens. I wonder how many times unreported cases of this has happened especially as a large percentage of taxi drivers are of Pakistani origin in the U.K.

  78. Tony Garcia

    Klay, let me ask you a question. If a blind guy is refused entry into a bus or taxi because a Muslim driver or passenger demands so, do you think this will increase or decrease islamophobia? Didn’t we have an article in this blog some time ago asking why islamophobia is growing in Europe and US?

  79. Klay_Immigrant

    Increase Islamophobia ofcourse. Any event whether witnessed in person or read/heard through the media which show Muslim intolerance to circumstances that the rest have no problem with will only further build barriers and resentment.

  80. Tony Garcia

    Klay let me tell you a story. I read last year that in Spain Brazilians have become the number one group using counterfeit documents, overtaking the Nigerians. From passports to university certificates or drive licenses, you name it we fake it, for us the sky is the limit.

    Now, if today I decided to apply for a job in there all my papers would probably be triple checked. So, who should I be mad at? The brazilianphobic Spanish employers or someone else?

  81. Tony Garcia

    “But both of you can cry on my shoulder whenever you wish. :)”

    Good to see you do whatever you can to avoid the subject.

    “… but Tony is in a bind because there is no similar party in Ireland.”

    I’m OK, I’ve been working hard on behalf of True Finns and your blog has been incredible helpful. Anyway before next summer we are back in Finland for good. And in Kangasala the lowest rate Finns/Non-Finns around Tampere.

  82. Klay_Immigrant

    Blame your fellow countrymen. But that’s the thing Tony your clever enough not to be blinded by your own nationality/race and let them cloud your judgement and logic.

    I know the feeling, whenever I travel in the airport if anyone is going to have extra security checks it will be me, young male Arab skin colour and born in an Arab country but yet have a European passport. But I don’t mind as I know if there is a terrorist around they will look more like me than the white granny standing behind me so it’s correct for me to be ‘targeted’ as the liberals would describe it.

    But I’ve read people in this blog use this as an example of racism and say the white granny should have as many security checks as myself. How stupid.

    That’s the thing that annoys me the most. Enrique talks as if I’m a white Jussi that has never experienced what blacks or Muslims had to deal with. But I interpret most events completely different and my attitude is much better so I’m able to not allow it to hold me back.

  83. xyz

    Anyway before next summer we are back in Finland for good. And in Kangasala the lowest rate Finns/Non-Finns around Tampere.
    -A visible immigrant without Finnish skills sourrounded by Finns…that’s a challenge 🙂

  84. Tony Garcia

    Yep, that’s how it’s…

    If a Brazilian wants to go visit US, first he needs to go to the American consulate and get a pre-visa. It’s done by proving to the officer that he won’t overstay or work in there. How? No idea, he takes all the document he can but it’s completely up to the officer believe in him or not, and the decision is final, no appeal, and if negative he needs to wait 6 months to apply again.

    After he get’s it, all solved, right? Nop. He needs to do all again when passing the passport control in there. If he doesn’t convince the border officer, back to Brazil in the next flight, no complains or appeal. If he does, finger print and picture, just in case…

    How about Argentineans? Unless it has changed they just waive through the border. No pre-visa, no questioning, maybe a little, but definitely no hassle.

    Are Americans Brazilianphobic? Well go to Miami or Los Angeles and order a pizza. I guarantee it’ll probably be delivered by an illegal Brazilian.

  85. Tiwaz

    Enriqe:

    “Let’s take Finland, where I live. There is an estimated roughly 25% or higher unemployment among immigrants. In some groups it can be higher or lower than the national average, which was 7.3% in August. We have to look at the reasons for unemployment. There are a myriad of factors: employer reluctance, immigrant lack of skills/overskills etc.”

    Oh, you finally admit that fault is at least partially in immigrants! You progress Enrique, don’t stop looking for faults in the mirror yet.

    -“However, I have a Finnish mother, grew up during the summers in Finland, studied social sciences but in my first 25 years I was never able to land a permanent job.”

    Your mother was not applying for a job so it is irrelevant.
    Summers in Finland not Finn you make. Nor does this translate into fluent Finnish by automation. (Though you may have been fluent)

    What takes my interest here is your social science studies. Was it or was it not Finnish equivalent? As in, either graduated from Finland or have your foreign papers translated into Finnish equivalents.

    If not, then no wonder you failed repeatedly. For all we Finns know, you graduated from Cereal Univesity of Cpt Crunch! There is a good reason why foreign studies are taken with huge pinch of salt. They are unknown qualntity and quality.

    -“Instead of trying to progress there were always some who tried to place obstacles or exploit me.”

    Blame Canada, blame Caanadaaaa..

    IE, always blame someone else but yourself.

    -“By the way, every ten years I leave Finland and work as a staffer. My last job was with El Pais and before that as bureau chief for Bridge News in Bogotá and correspontent in Milan. I can get staff jobs outside of Finland but it has been virtually impossible in this country. ”

    No wonder. I’m guessing at first you had Cpt. Crunch graduation papers, and now you are old, bitter Finland hater so I would not hire you even if you had decent papers.

    • Enrique

      —Summers in Finland not Finn you make. Nor does this translate into fluent Finnish by automation. (Though you may have been fluent)

      This is a sentence directly from the Twilight Zone.

  86. Tiwaz

    Regarding the cook who is muslim…

    If you hire muslim cook who refuses to cook pork for religious reasons (fine as such).
    You won’t have very successful restaurant in long term. Having great deal of menu removed for half of the time restaurant is open is NOT way to entice more customers.

    Thus, hiring such cook would be absolutely idiotic as it would be counterproductive.

    So, refusing to hire muslim cook for being muslim is wrong, refusing to hire muslim cook for refusing to cook pork (if menu includes pork in some form) is fine.

  87. Tony Garcia

    What we keep hearing here is that opportunity is the key, and the US knows well how to celebrate diversity. Ok them, but I’m afraid, for some, all the opportunity and celebration the US can provide still won’t be enough.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/27/AR2010102704857.html

    “An Obama administration official said Ahmed, a naturalized U.S. citizen born in Pakistan…who holds a bachelor’s in computer science from City University of New York, works in Northern Virginia for Ericsson, a telecommunications company”

  88. Tony Garcia

    xyz, I promise I answer your question, but before that please answer one to me that I asked Enrique 3 times but he refused to answer.

    I lived 1 and a half year in Santamaki a small suburb in Kampele a small Kunta near Oulu, that’s the house…

    http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/8120/houseuq.jpg

    Now I ask, do you think a physically visible immigrant like myself, living in 100% Finnish place like that, would have any problem? In your opinion, how much change I had of facing racist attitudes of any sort?

    About Kangasala? My favorite kunta in the whole Finland. Was there that my Finnish drive license was issued if you have noticed. We were living there when my son was born. I just love the place. How am I going to survive? Finland is a lovely place full of lovely people, that’s why I want so much to keep it as it is. This monster of racism and discrimination that is painted here simply doesn’t exist.

    Kangasala? As my son use to say “easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy”.

  89. xyz

    I lived 1 and a half year in Santamaki a small suburb in Kampele a small Kunta near Oulu, that’s the house…
    -I have a similar flat with my Fiancee. However,what are you planning to do there? Watching TV the whole day?

  90. Tony Garcia

    “I have a similar flat with my Fiancee. However,what are you planning to do there? Watching TV the whole day?”

    That’s why I don’t debate you. What kind of question is that? What this got to do with the subject? Just look what I have said and what you replied.

    PS. those are rhetoric questions therefore don’t need answer, I won’t bother replying…

  91. xyz

    I don’t know what’s so funny on this question? I was just wondering if he is going to hang around there since he is not integrated yet according to your standards…

    • Enrique

      They are right, Tony, language and then maybe a job. If you continue to use English in Finland you won’t ever learn Finnish. But ask your employers how much Finnish you have to know. Some will give you the infinity symbol as an answer.

  92. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    You need fluent Swedish as well.

    Have you got a Finnish high school graduation certificate? Foreign qualifications don’t count, as any fool can forge a certificate from some tinpot soft option institution like Cambridge or MIT. If you haven’t got a Finnish high school certificate, then employers can classify you as illiterate and innumerate. Expect to be paid accordingly.

  93. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘You need fluent Swedish as well.’

    How many Finns can speak fluent Swedish? Unless they live in a predominently Swedish speaking area, the majority can’t speak it fluently.

  94. JusticeDemon

    “Tony, language and then maybe a job.”

    No problem, I’ll take my chances…

    So another useless parasite economic migrant is coming here to steal our women and pollute our culture.

  95. Tony Garcia

    “So another useless parasite economic migrant is coming here to steal our women and pollute our culture.”

    Of course, this is all my yomman rites, isn’t? But you forgot the most important – riot on the streets, burn the Finnish flag and shout behead the infidels. You just can’t be a really good multicultural immigrant without those, can you?

    But at least, Enrique will have one more joining the Finnish bashing chorus.

    • Enrique

      –But you forgot the most important – riot on the streets, burn the Finnish flag and shout behead the infidels.

      Are you sure you have been in Finland? I have never seen a person burn a Finnish flag in public.

  96. Tony Garcia

    “Are you sure you have been in Finland? ”

    Of course not, that was an idiotic reply to an idiotic comment. What did I say to you about debating those guys?

    • Enrique

      Tony, I have neverseen anyone burn the Finnish flag or riot in the streets. That is why I asked you if you had been here. Finland isn’t that kind of a contry even though the Somalis are the fourth-largest foreign group in Finland. And just because they are from a war-torn country does not imply that they are going on the rampage. I have met a lot of Somalis and I consider them more willing to adapt to country than some others I know. I personally am concerned about more far-right groups from the True Finns. Did you see this? http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/104801-homovaino-oulussa-%E2%80%9Dterrorismia%E2%80%9D

  97. xyz

    Tony, I think it is quite clear for everybody now that most of the stuff you are posting here is non-sense. If I were you, I would take the next weekend to relax a bit and think again about the stuff you are posting here.

  98. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, I have neverseen anyone burn the Finnish flag or riot in the streets”

    Never did I. I told you, the only way to reply to something idiotic is with something even more idiotic. That’s why I don’t bother with those guys, I prefer reply to your comments. I don’t agree with you but at least your comments are intelligent and we can keep the debate in a good level.

    “I have met a lot of Somalis and I consider them more willing to adapt to country than some others I know.”

    Some are, no doubt, the problem is that they keep listen to people saying that the Finns must accept them they way they are, then they go home and hear from their fire-breathing Imams from Saudi-Arabia that they must turn their backs to the evil influence from the west, and presto, all lost…

    “Did you see this?”

    Nop, I didn’t but now, everything bad that happens the True Finns is behind? A snow storm hits Finland and it’s causes by the True Finns. You’re blowing things out of proportion because you just can’t couple with the pools results. That’s why you insist in call them anti-immigration even though you know they only oppose some groups. Besides, how can you say it’s right-wing violence and not left-wing? The left is far more willing to use violence than the right. I read 2 articles, one from Sweden and one from Germany, telling just how bad left-wing violence has been recently.

  99. Klay_Immigrant

    The problem is that the average man in the street who doesn’t know much about politics equates Right-wing groups with Nazis and Left-wing groups with hippies and thinks therefore right wingers must be more violent than left wingers but ofcourse they couldn’t be further away from the truth.

  100. JusticeDemon

    Are there any imams from Saudi Arabia in Finland? I don’t think so, but perhaps Tony is better informed.

    Klay

    I would be curious to hear YOUR explanation, as someone who is wiser than the “average man in the street”, of the conceptual difference between “right wing” and “left wing”, free of all contingencies. How do YOU tell the difference between someone you call “left wing” and someone you call “right wing”, for example in relation to a historical figure such as Aristotle, Henry VIII or Albert Schweitzer?

    Obviously these are relative terms like “electropositive” and “electronegative” in chemistry, but what is the conceptual determiner enabling you to decide that one idea lies to the left or right of another? If you have no answer to this question, then you literally do not know what you are talking about when you use “left wing” and “right wing”.

  101. Tony Garcia

    Klay I think the problem lies basically on political correctness, once most of the mass media is liberal, theirs editorial line is: get as hard as you can on conservatives and Christians but leave lefties and Muslims alone. One example? Have a look how much media coverage the crazy pastor from Florida got. Now, yesterday an Pakistani was arrested trying to blow the subway in Washington. The media? Barely any commend about it.

    One guy try to burn books and gets world wide outrage, another try to burn people and gets silence.

    O’Doherty wrote for the independent something that describes perfectly the currently situation…

    “Rather surprisingly, the Irish Left have been uncharacteristically quiet on this issue. After all, it involves two of the things they love the most: defending Muslims’ right to be mad, and having a pop at Christianity. Seriously, throw an Israeli into the mix and they’d be in an orgasmic state of self-righteous indignation.”

  102. Klay_Immigrant

    The terms Right and Left refer to political affiliations which originated early in the French Revolutionary era of 1789-1796, and referred originally to the seating arrangements in the various legislative bodies of France. The aristocracy sat on the right of the Speaker (traditionally the seat of honor) and the commoners sat on the Left, hence the terms Right-wing politics and Left-wing politics.

    ‘The Right’ thus implied support for aristocratic or royal interests, and the church, while The ‘Left’ implied support for republicanism, secularism and civil liberties.

    According to the simplest left-right axis, communism and socialism are usually regarded internationally as being on the left, opposite fascism and conservatism on the right.

    Obviously nowadays the difference between the two has been blurred hence terms such as Centre-right or Centre-left meaning different policies straddle the line of the political spectrum.

  103. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony it would be interesting to imagine how the liberal mass media journalists would survive in a Islamic country with Sharia law, minimum freedom of the press, propaganda, and censorship.

    I wonder how many would continue afterwards to defend Muslims and their religion/culture. Enrique why don’t you go to a Islamic country and work for the national press there and see what differences are. Those differences are in essence what Muslims are against.

    The other day I was watching a debate on Islam in Europe on T.V. and defending Islam were two Muslim women lawyers who had their hair free and wore heavy make up. The irony is that the religion they are defending would make them cover up their hair and face, and their profession would be strictly for males only.

  104. xyz

    Why are you guys talking about Muslims again? I thought we are talking about Tony who wants to move to a country where he is not able to speak the native language and where he does not have certificates from? Does he has some special rights?

  105. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    So if I understand you correctly, you are opposed to “republicanism, secularism and civil liberties”, and in favour of “aristocratic or royal interests and the church”?

    I’m not sure how this helps you to distinguish issues and ideas on a left-right axis, but you seem very keen to do so in these discussions.

    By the way, there is an obvious ad hominem in the last paragraph of your contribution at 7.42 pm.

  106. JusticeDemon

    xyz

    Tony may be a parasitic economic migrant, but he’s THEIR parasitic economic migrant, and that makes all the difference. 🙂

  107. Tony Garcia

    Well said Klay, what amazes me about liberals is that for them the best way to protect western liberal values, is bring in a group witch ideology is completely against western liberal values. And yet they keep saying conservatives are the problem.

    Klay, please let me proudly present to you a journalist who I admire the most, Mr Dennis Prager

  108. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘So if I understand you correctly, you are opposed to “republicanism, secularism and civil liberties”, and in favour of “aristocratic or royal interests and the church”?’

    I was just using traditional examples of what the Right and Left represent. Nothing to do with my own personal beliefs.

    As a matter of fact I’m an Atheist and on certain policies I’m on the Left closer to Liberals than Conservatives but when it comes to immigration and the method to integrate immigrants into society I’m completely a Right-Winger. But I’m certainly not a poster child for the Right in general.

  109. Klay_Immigrant

    xyz I speak Spanish, French, Italian and obviously English fluently. I was only in Germany for 1 year but can speak it at a good level, give me another year I’d be fluent. I can read Arabic no problem but my speaking and understanding is a bit rusty as I havn’t practiced it in over 12 years.

  110. Klay_Immigrant

    Thanks xyz, when you learn 1 of the Latin romance languages (Spanish, French, Italian), the other 2 become quite easy after. It took me 6 months to learn Italian cause I already knew Spanish and French by then. German on the other hand I was a complete beginner.

    I worked hard and immersed myself completely in the language. Even at times I had to lie that I didn’t know any English as some people only want to speak English to you and not their own language.

  111. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    It remains unclear why you think your views on immigration are right wing, as you still haven’t provided any kind of criterion for making judgements of this kind.

    By the way, only about one Finn in 8 is not registered with a religious denomination. Do you think this very clear majority should tolerate your godlessness to a greater or lesser degree than you tolerate Islam? Should this majority be free to prevent you working as a teacher, for example? This is John Stuart Mill again, but you opened the door to this line of enquiry.

  112. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘By the way, only about one Finn in 8 is not registered with a religious denomination.’

    First of all being registered is one thing but being religious whatever the religion is another thing. A lot of people believe in a God so are registered but aren’t religious (ie. attend church every Sunday). In Britain there’s lots of people who are registered Protestants but have never been in a Church apart from weddings or funerals. So that statistic is very misleading.

    A better statistic is a Gallup poll that has a broad question: the question ‘Is religion important in your daily life?’ was asked; ‘yes’ and ‘no’ were the answers. In Finland 74% said no and 26% said yes. Finland ranked 9th least religious in the world in that regard.

    -‘Do you think this very clear majority should tolerate your godlessness to a greater or lesser degree than you tolerate Islam?’

    I’m not promoting my godlessness to anyone. I am tolerant to all religions as long as they show the same tolerance to myself or other religions. So include any religion other than Islam.

    What sets Islam apart is the it’s not adaptable,
    tolerant, or compromising to anything other than itself. When it has been criticised, threats of violence are the norm and in some cases carried out.

  113. xyz

    Klay, yes I know the Romance languages are quite similar. I had French and Spanish in school but I have never lived in those countries. So I am not fluent 🙂

    My old boss was from South Africa and he also tried to learn German while he worked in Germany. Most of the people there wanted to speak English with him in his company so he gave it up with learning German after a while. I had the same experience in Finland. Everybody speaks English with you. But yeah, maybe a good idea to propose that you can’t speak English. Have to try it next time when I am going there 🙂

  114. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Those registered denomination members pay church tax, most have been confirmed, and all are aware of their right to resign from the church, so their continued membership can hardly be a matter of complete indifference.

    You ducked the direct questions about the limits of majority political power.

    As a teacher in Finland, you might well be called upon to participate in, or even to lead certain forms of religious ceremony. The Summer Verse Jo joutui armas aika is one example of this. Even assuming that you can learn the words of this song, what will you say about this aspect of the duties of the position to the interviewing governors of a school when you apply for a teaching job?

    The Summer Verse has been the subject of considerable debate in Finland recently, with a very clear majority in favour of retaining this tradition. This topic was also one of the first to be raised and answered when the present Minister of Education took up her position, and the press reported her response in detail under a separate headline.

    Many of the arguments adduced in favour of the majority view concerning the Summer Verse are parallel to views that you have expressed here. Doesn’t your integration require you to assimilate this fundamental aspect of Finnishness into your own character? If not, then why not? Many school governors would say that your unwillingness to perform the contractual duty of leading a class in a Finnish tradition should be grounds for not hiring you as a teacher. Are they right?

    Perhaps atheists are not fit to be teachers in the same way that Moslems are not fit to be taxi drivers…

  115. Klay_Immigrant

    JusticeDemon if I was a teacher I would have no problems participating or leading in the Summer Verse. Wouldn’t even give it a second thought or have any hestitation so I don’t see what your point is.

    When I was younger and lived in Saudi Arabia I visited Mecca and Medina and have been in several Mosques. I know by heart the words to the call for Islamic prayer and the first verse of prayer in the Quran so learning the words to the song of the Summer Verse is again no problem for me.

    I’m a passive Atheist meaning if someone asks me directly if I believe in God or what my religion is I’ll answer accordingly but I wouldn’t go around like some maniac announcing my atheism to anyone who would listen or denounce any acts of worship. I assimilate in every single way.

  116. Tony Garcia

    Klay once you have been to Mecca could you please confirm something to me? I saw once some pictures sowing that in some areas in there non-Muslims are not allowed, however, today it’s very ease to produce a very convince fake picture. Could you please confirm if this is the case?

  117. Klay_Immigrant

    Hmm in terms of appearance there is no thing as non-Muslim. They can be black, white, brown or even oriental (indonesia has largest Muslim population in the world) so I find it very hard to believe such a story.

    When I went in no places did I see security checks or signs saying Muslims only. I guess they assume rightly that practically everyone there is Muslim so no need for such actions.

  118. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    The next question from the interviewing board of school governors:

    So your performance as a teacher would be based on a formal act of insincerity?

    I think you should check out the words of the Suvivirsi before you answer that one. If your strategy is to tell the interviewing board that you consider yourself a convincing liar, then you’d better be clear what kind of lies you will be telling when you sing that verse.

    Returning to the left-right question, it is by no means clear which political parties in Finland would reflect the range of views that you espouse. Ricky has criticised some relatively recent remarks made by prominent SDP [i.e. “Labour Party”] members, including the Party leader, and the policies/remarks of SDP politicians in office. By contrast, the wholesale rationalisation of Finland’s legislation and practice governing migration for employment (which I lobbied for) was blocked for many years by the political Left, largely in response to the concerns of some sections of the trade union movement (to which I belong). That reform was eventually implemented in a Right-Centre government, with the initiative very much taken by the National Coalition Party [think “Conservatives”]. The traditionally most “unreflectively pro-immigrant” political parties in Finland are the Greens and the Swedish People’s Party, whereas “unreflectively anti-immigrant” views have come most consistently from the Centre Party over the last 30 years.

    In other words, you will find that your “right wing” views are not advocated by the main “right wing” political party. To find kindred spirits on these matters, you either have to go to the populist extreme right or to certain factions of the centre-left in the spectrum of Finnish party politics.

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