Finland is one of the few countries I know in Europe where you can openly support a neo-Nazi group and Nazism and be elected to city council. The only catch is that you belong to the Perussuomalaiset (PS) party and state that your are neither a racist nor a Nazi like Vaasa city councilman Risto Helin does.
Helin admits on YLE in English, which cites the original article on Image magazine, giving the clock with Hitler to an anti-immigration neo-Nazi group in Vaasa that calls itself Kerho, or The Club.
“I don’t see anything wrong with it,” Helin told Yle’s Swedish-language news on Thursday. “I’m not racist and not a Nazi.”
The Vaasa city councilman got elected in October. One of his campaign stunts was being pictured with a neo-Nazi blood-and-honor t-shirt.
PS MP Maria Tolppanen, who sits on the Vaasa city council, said she was “shocked and disturbed” by the news and would bring the matter up with the party leadership in Vaasa and Helsinki.
Should we hold our breathes?
Even if sensible people shun anything that comes close to Nazism, this appears not to be a problem for the PS leadership. Isn’t Timo Soini a Catholic?
Helin’s Hitler clock shouldn’t surprise us because two PS members’ names were uncovered by hackers in 2011 for applying for membership in Kansalinen Vastarinta, a neo-Nazi association. Both PS members, Ulla Pyysalo, PS MP Juho Eerola’s aide, and Tuomas Okkonen, who got elected to Lumijoki’s town council, are still members of the party.
How is this possible? Because fascism, counterjihadism and neo-Nazism are alive and kicking in the PS.
PS councilman Risto Helin’s Hitler clock, which he gave to a neo-Nazi group in Vaasa.
In my opinion, Risto Helin acted very foolishly and damaged the reputation of Perussuomalaiset. And I must say that his act has been condemned on Hommaforum as well.
However, if you think that Perussuomalaiset supports neo-nazism with silence, does Migrant Tales or muslims in Finland then support sharia or muslim fundamentalism by being silent about the fact that according to news a radical muslim lecturer/leader, Anjem Choudary, is today speaking in a secret location at Helsinki? His Islam4UK organization was banned in UK on grounds of terror law and according to press report, he now represents organization called Shariah4Finland.
PS voter, is Hommaforum apart of the PS or not? As far as I know it isn’t officially but unofficially it is closely tied to it. Matis Turkkila is a PS member. I don’t know about you, but I’m totally fed up with these types of things. As you know, Helin is not the first case in the PS concerning neo-Nazism.
With respect to Sharia law, we can have a discussion about that too.
Just because we condemn the PS for flirting with Nazism by not DOING ANYTHING, any other pernicious ideology will receive the same treatment.
So, what is your stand on this:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/radikaali_muslimisaarnaaja_puhuu_helsingissa_salaisessa_paikassa_-_vaatimuksena_terroristien_vapauttaminen/6558540
–So, what is your stand on this:
http://www.migranttales.net/the-finnish-city-of-kemi-gives-us-harri-turtiainen-of-the-ps/
According to that, I don’t find anything bad. I totally agree that criminals should be put in their place.
Why didn’t you answer my question?
You propably approve that kind of stuff, which you can find from my link?
Unfortunately Finland is not the only country with elected fascists
Holland
Belgium
France
Spain
Italy
Austria
Switzerland
Germany
Poland
Hungary
Estland
Croatia
Norway
Sweden
Romania
Etc.
Unfortunately true, Toiset Soundit.
So does this make it right for you guys to vote for fascists to your parliament? i strongly believe that Finland is even more flirting with fascism than these countries. I went yesterday to visit comment section about the PS politician who gave Hitler clock to neonazis, and to my surprise many Finns didn’t even see anything wrong with that, they were even defending him for doing that, that’s crazy. Many Finns do not see anything wrong with being a racist or a neonazi and that’s scary trend that’s spreading among many Finns.
–and to my surprise many Finns didn’t even see anything wrong with that, they were even defending him for doing that, that’s crazy.
It doesn’t surprise me, D4R. We condemn it and consider it shameful and insulting to all the millions of victims of Hitler’s Nazi state.
Get real. It’s just a clock, with Hitler’s picture in it. Are you really afraid that Hitler could do some bad things via that picture?
This is what is wrong today: People are so neurotic about racism that they desperately try to find racism everywhere.
Why don’t you seek for banning history books from schools? They also have a picture of Hitler.
Farang
Farang, you disgust me!
That was expected.
When ever you are addressed a real question regarding the problem, you answer something like that and just dodge the question.
And why is that? It is because the answer would reveal that there is actually no problem, therefore you don’t want to answer but instead just continue to spread the false catastrophies.
That is exactly same kind of propaganda that you are accusing immigration critics of doing. You invent racism and natsism everywhere and the use that imaginary racism to promote your anti-racism agendas.
Even your anti-racism is biased. Whenever there are real racism by for example muslims against white people, you just ignore it, as was just proved when I linked the news about the secret muslim happening in Helsinki. You just didn’t react to that at all.
Farang
There seems to be little to motivate people to go to such lengths. A more realistic explanation is that a PS councilman ACTUALLY DID GIVE a clock with a picture of Hitler saluting next to a Nazi flag.
Nothing imagined about that, Farang.
No we don’t. But we are not a site set up to attack all racism in the world. We are a site that draws attention to issues affecting immigrants in Finland. That narrows what we talk about and draw attention to. I’m sorry if that offends you, but every time you have brought this up (which must be in the hundreds), you have been told squarely that we condemn all forms of racism, whether by Muslims or Christians or non-believers.
Why do you mention Muslims as being racist? What has their religion got to do with it? Strange way of putting it. Why not talk about religious prejudice? Why are you focusesd on the Muslims? Because you are a fascist and an Islamaphobe! Why else would you want to drag Muslim racism into the conversation?
And why do you assume Muslims are non-white and non-Muslims are white? Your mask is slipping Farang, you Nazi-loving racist!
Farang: Get real. It’s just a clock, with Hitler’s picture in it. Are you really afraid that Hitler could do some bad things via that picture?
This is what is wrong today: People are so neurotic about racism that they desperately try to find racism everywhere.
Why don’t you seek for banning history books from schools? They also have a picture of Hitler.
It’s not even about the clock or Hitlers picture, i have Hitlers picture on my history books, it’s about a politician associating himself with neonazis. This politician decides peoples things, so he has power and it’s scary thing that he’s assoiating himself with neonazis. it’s not about him giving the clock, it’s about associating with neonazis. Why is’t so hard for you guys to understand that?
It is everyone’s lawful right to associate with who ever they want. If one becomes a politician, should he get rid of his friends, is that what you are saying?
Are you saying that in democracy people should be selected outside elections who can and who can’t be a politician? That doesn’t sound like democracy.
In democracy even Nazis should have same rights as everyone else. If you don’t like democracy, then Finland is not a good place for you.
–In democracy even Nazis should have same rights as everyone else. If you don’t like democracy, then Finland is not a good place for you.
Pretty funny, Farang. With your line of thinking, even Jihadists have the right to say what they say. Don’t complain about religious fundamentalists expressing themselves if you are willing to give Nazis the same right. Be fair.
So far the Nazis (or neo-nazis) have not threatened anyone with violence. That’s the difference.
As long as violence or inciting violence is not involved, they should be free to say what they want.
I personally know of somone who was stabbed through the hand by two Finnish neo-Nazis when he tried to come to the aid of someone they were harassing. Don’t make me laugh.
Farang
I don’t think so Farang. Society should and does have standards that protect peace and oppose prejudice. Giving the Far Right free reign completely undermines that.
Enrique: –In democracy even Nazis should have same rights as everyone else. If you don’t like democracy, then Finland is not a good place for you.
Pretty funny, Farang. With your line of thinking, even Jihadists have the right to say what they say. Don’t complain about religious fundamentalists expressing themselves if you are willing to give Nazis the same right. Be fair.
Exactly. With Farangs logic we should give free pass to every extremist even islamist terrorist. farang don’t cry about jihadist then, they too deserve place to grow in democracy right?
Congratulations D4R and Mark. The blog entry, Growing up in Finland as an immigrant, got reposted on HardPuppy – Network blog. Good posts get noticed!
Here’s the link: http://www.hardpuppy.com/posts/2013/03/growing-up-in-finland-as-an-immigrant-a-personal-story-migrant/
If majority of people supports fascism, then fascism it’ll be. That is democracy. This means that supporters of fascism should be free to promote fascism and seek for voters. In the elections it is then shown if people want that or not.
Fascists should also respect the result and not enforce fascism if they are left as minority (as it is at the moment).
Farang
That is insanity. That’s like give ebola a free ride and saying, if it manages to spread itself, then it deserves to kill off 80% of the population.
Fascism is a political disease that harms societies. You simply cannot make all ideas are of equal value and claim ‘free speech’ as the reason to keep the door open for the thugs to walk in and take over!
If it really harms societies, then you shouldn’t worry about majority of people voting for it.
Therefore democracy takes care of it and you have no basis to forbid fascism in advance.
Farang
If what you say is true, then no would ever have fallen victim to a totalitarian state, because the people would never have let it happen. History calls you a liar, Farang. More, it calls you a stupid ignoramus.
–If majority of people supports fascism, then fascism it’ll be. That is democracy.
Isn’t that what Hitler, Franco, Mussolini and many others said?
In those cases, the people got what they wanted, didn’t they. If people want harmful things, then maybe they deserve harmful things.
We have history to tell us what certain ideologies can do. An estimated 60 million people died in WW2. Must we go down that road again?
Mark
Exactly, gave a clock. And you people make this as the biggest threat in the world, someone giving someone a clock.
I ask again, who got hurt?
Farang
60 million people died. Another 70+ millions were injured. The world lost nearly a decade to war and immediate post-war hardship.
Who was clearly and directly responsible for that war and the diseased political ideology that gave rise to it? That man on that clock!
You asked who got hurt…now I’ve told you, my bet is you don’t give a flying fuck!
You can’t be that ignorant?
Those people have already died. I asked you, who got hurt because clock changed ownership? Can’t you see your hypocracy?
How many people died, because that clock was given?
Farang
Says the man who is completely insensitive to the horrors of history. You are a joke as a human being. You’ve had everything on a fucking plate and you know the value of none of it!
That clock either glorifies or trivialises a man who was responsible for one of the biggest systematic evils ever conjured up. My grandfather fought in that war, and saw the horrors of it. He was one of the ‘lucky’ ones to come back. He never talked about it. It was too horrible. Many of his friends didn’t come back.
And you have the cheek to dismiss all that sacrifice and pain and horror just to allow a shit-dip skin-deep politician with no fucking sense or decency to piss all over history and what it has meant to millions of people who lived through it and with its painful legacy.
Unless of course, both you and him really do see Hitler as a hero, because that seems to be the only thing that explains your fucking pig ignorance.
You disgust me Farang. Again!!!!
I feel sorry for your kids.
I don’t see Hitler as a hero. But I have common sense, and I understand that his picture is not killing or harming anyone. Is someone glorifies that person, it’s his own business. But whatever the horrors in the past have been, we should not lose our common sense and act like the picture or clock is the devil himeself.
Farang
Common sense should also tell you that when someone chooses to have his picture on a clock that is kept next to his bed, that it means more that just ‘a picture’ of Hitler, like you would find in a history book. The harm is in the glorification or in the trivialisation.
That is the harm, right there. You can argue that a photograph doesn’t hurt anyone, but a photograph is symbolic of something else, and that something else is what this person carries inside them, and it informs their decisions, their actions, their thoughts, their politics and their prejudice!
Does your common sense tell you that you don’t have to analyse or understand anything beyond the mere surface of things?
May I ask you a question:
Do you honestly think that this persons thoughts would be any different, if he chose not to keep the hitler picture next to his bed?
It is clear that you don’t understand which is the cause and which is the result.
You think that because he has the picture, he will have nazist thoughts, while every sensible people understands that because he has nazist thought, he put the picture next to his bed.
The picture doesn’t cause anything.
Farang
You are the only one trying to create this world in which the picture either represents a ’cause’ or it doesn’t. What other people are reacting to is the symbolism contained in the photograph, and thinking about the kind of person that thinks this is ‘okay’.
So, go lose yourself in some imaginary world of ’cause’ and ‘effect’ and blind yourself to the very real harm that comes with Nazism, fasicsm and other ideologies of prejudice. When eventually you wake up, we will be here to explain to you what it was all about.
As a summary you are ranting about some “bad thing” but you are unable say what this “bad thing” is.
You are excersising exactly the see no evil, hear no evil stuff 🙂 You somehow think that if nobody speaks about nazis and nobody sees nazi pictures, then nazis magically don’t exist anymore.
Farang
60 million dead. 60 million dead. 60 million dead!
When does that register in that thick fucking skull of yours? There are no excuses for glorifying or trivialising this person.
Are you drunk?
Mark
You are not answering to the question. Those 60 million did not die because of this clock with hitlers picture in it.
I am asking what harm was caused by changing ownership of this clock and you are unable to answer.
Farang
You are moving the goal posts, over and over.
You asked what harm was related to that clock, you were given concrete details: 60 million dead. Then you move the goal posts, by saying no harm from the ‘ownership of the clock’.
You were told the clock harm’s the morality of the owner. You move the goal posts again, saying his morality is already corrupted, as if symbols had no power to reinforce ideas.
You were told about the harm caused to those directly affected by those events, their sense of outrage at the glorification or trivialising of a truly horrific chapter in human history. Then you move the goal posts again by saying that this harm doesn’t count either.
You give no real reasons for why these harms should be ignored. But you do complain that you haven’t had an answer.
I guess the only harm you would actually accept is if I bashed you over the damn head with the clock itself?
Mark
Now you are lying. I never asked what harm “was related” to the clock. My original question about the clock was the same I am asking you now: What harm was caused with this case where Helin gave the clock to neo-nazis. And you have never answered to that but instead you have repeated same story from the history.
Farang
I don’t tell lies, Farang. You asked this:
I know that you meant who got hurt when the clock was given, but by ignoring all the other meanings and ‘pain’ around this clock, you are trying to whitewash the reality. The ‘meaning’ of that clock is intimately tied up in the history of the person and the ideology it depicts. You cannot pick and choose the meanings, removing all the negative and horrible references as if they don’t exist. So when you asked the very general question ‘who got hurt’, it was a very good opportunity to bring the discussion back to some kind of reality.
The history is fundamental to this issue. You cannot simply sweep it aside as if it had not impact or effect. Hiding behind the idea that it is ‘just a picture’ is simply insulting people’s intelligence. We can all see it is ‘just a picture’, but it is at the same time much more than ‘just a picture’, and pretending it isn’t and even arguing that ‘no one is harmed’ is simply outrageous.
But even beyond the relevance of the history, there is also the harm from the outrage created and the moral harm that trading in this kind of symbolism creates. You have also IGNORED these harms. You are the one who is not responding to the legitimate points being made. And of course you cannot, because then you would have to condemn it too, as something outrageous and completely unacceptable from a public figure.
The truth is, and everyone knows it, that there was no harm done with Helin giving the clock to neo-nazis.
Only the fact that is has Hitler’s picture in it was a good excuse for some people to exaggerate the threat of nazism in finland.
Farang
The harm is real, and you have been clearly told what the harms are, the historical harms, the moral harms and the public harms. You can ignore these all you like, but simply crying that you have not had an answer just because you cannot process the answer given is just tiring.
The threat of Nazism is what it is. This story illustrates that it is perfectly acceptable for a local politician to openly indulge in neo-Nazi propoganda and remain in office. That speaks fucking volumes for the state of Finnish politics and the position or threat of neo-Nazism in Finland. It’s a fucking disgrace to Finnish politics.
And as a foreigner whose grandfather fought the Nazis and was left for dead with a bullet in his neck, I really cannot fathom how this man can be allowed to function in Finnish politics. It is fucking outrageous. And that is no exaggeration! It beggars belief. I’m sure there are Finns that are outraged, but the fact that public outrage has not forced this man out of politics leaves me absolutely disappointed in the Finnish character! At what point does Finland stand up and say ‘enough is enough’, these neo-Nazis must be driven back into their holes and out of public life!
Mark
So, first you claim that I move goal posts and now you admit that I indeed have all the time asked the same thing. Isn’t that contradicting yourself.
I know what is related to hitler in past and all the horrors he is responsible of. But still I like to keep the common sense and keep the perspective. In the end a picture of hitler is just a picture and can’t hurt anyone anymore.
Maybe someone could hurt their feelings but that is not the case here, as Helin gave the watch to neo-nazi group, there was nobody else involved, who could hurt their feelings.
If someone did actually hurt their feelings, then the responsibility lies in the media who made the story about the clock exchange.
My point is: If two nazi people privately changees nazi stuff, then there is no harm caused to anybody.
Farang
Two things. You did not want to discuss the historical harms. That was the goal posts you set up. But then you left yourself open by asking a very general question, at which point, I brought in the historical harms. These harms are absolutely crucial to this discussion, because if Hitler had been a ballet dance teacher, then we would not be having this discussion at all.
Second, the other two harms were within the narrow goal posts you set. Both the harm to the individuals with the perpetuation of prejudice, and the harm to the public, through the outrage their insensitivety causes are real harms associated with the giving of the clock. But you did move the goal posts again to try to ignore these harms.
Calling what you do ‘common sense’ does not automatically give it value. The perspective you offer us is a very narrow perspective that chooses to deliberately ignore harms and then cry like a baby that your question about harms has not been answered.
Again, you move the goal posts in an artificial way so as not to take responsibility for the harms created. This story is in the public domain. We are talking about ‘public’ behaviour as this is a group open to the public and the gift from from a public representative. But in the midst of that, you want to tell us that this is in no way a ‘public’ act. Politics is by its very nature a public activity.
So now you are asking the media not to report on the political actions of their elected representatives? That is a very fascist argument, Farang. A classic fascist argument!
And your narrowing of the perspective to this ridiculously Hermetically sealed context still does not deal with the harm done to these individuals through the perpetuation and distortion of historical realities that makes glorifying a man responsible for mass genocide somehow ‘harm free’. It is a ridiculous and indefensible notion.
And trying to keep this ‘private’ is just not on. It’s like saying that politicians can indulge in the most hienous, illegal or evil acts just as long as it’s kept ‘private’, i.e. hidden from the public. That is completely unacceptable, Farang.
Mark
I already explainen to you the causality in this issue. Therefore it is evident that no moral harm was caused here.
Farang
Explaining ‘causality’ by simply trying to remove the importance of the ‘historical’ perspective is not an adequate response to my questions. Not even remotely adequate. And using words like ‘evident’ does not strengthen what is otherwise a weak argument. Saying you have ‘explained’ it does not mean that you have.
Mark
Democracy doesn’t work that way. How would you feel if someone said exactly same words as you above, but changes “neo-nazis” to for example “romanis”?
You would immediately condemn that. And that is hypocracy in it’s pure form. You allow discrimination of some groups while you oppose discrimination of other groups.
Farang
So you are saying that in a democracy, anything goes? No standards. No law. Just as long as people don’t get caught publicly doing nasty things and when they do, blame the media for making it widely known.
And then on top of that, you try to give to evil political ideas the same protection as an ethnicity, that neo-Nazis and Romani are somehow the same, deserving the same protection.
First, ethnicity and political identity are not the same thing. Ethnicities are protected from slander and denigration because that constitutes racism and discrimination. Criticising political ideas and limiting the possibilities for hate speech is not racism and neither is it political persecution, though I know that you will cry that it is. It is stopping people from turning ‘political freedom’ into a cover for racism and from exploiting and perpetuating prejudice. Where these two are similar is that belonging to an ethnicity is not a justification for breaking the law or violating social standards and neither is having a particular political identity.
Second, you cannot defend an evil by saying, you have to allow evil because if you don’t, you are not being good. Well fuck you, if it takes a bit of evil to stop evil from wrecking the place, then that’s what it takes. In this case, the ‘bit of evil’ is restrictions on the more obviously pernicious and racist political ideologies that would seek to overthrow the state, impose martial law and undermine the fabric of a free and a human-rights-based society.
I think that is an evil worth fighting and worth getting your hands dirty for, if that means limiting the ‘free speech’ by having laws in place that outlaw ‘hate speech’. That is called protecting society and if you want to cry foul and cry that your democratic rights have been violated, then tough shit. If you manage to convince a majority to throw away their freedoms, then I will be the first to sign up to the political resistence! If you think you fascists are going to take over Finland without a fight, just because ‘democracy’ promises you an open avenue to perpetuate your hate propoganda, you are mistaken. And people in Finland will wake up and smell the coffee in regard to you fascists, if they haven’t started to already.
Mark
As long as law is not broken, then anything goes. Like in this case, the neo-nazis haven’t done anything illegal. Risto Helin hasn’t done anything illegal. Giving that clock was totally legal. So: Nothing wrong has been done. And whoever tries to forbid them of doing what they are doing is a fascist and enemy of democracy.
Farang
This is you trying to gain mileage out of a scandal affecting fascists in Finland and ending in some kind of reversal of the argument, accusing people who express outrage of being fascists. The problem is that you being utterly deceptive in trying to make this about legality. It is perfectly legal and no-one here has called for it to be illegal. The demand that I make is that standards of public life mean that this man is sacked from his party and condemned throughout the entire political establishment. In other words, he is made utterly politically isolated. That is the right response, so go fuck yourself and your clearly stupid attempts to say that critics of this neo-Nazi moron are the real fascists.
Mark
Well, one could easily say same thing to you:
“if you want to cry foul and cry that someone gave someone a hitler clock, then tough shit”
It is of same value as your argument.
Farang
It is the complete opposite argument. One is arguing that hate speech should be outlawed and that fascists should have limits in how much they can promote hate propoganda, and your version is the opposite, that there would be no limits. The only thing that is the same is the ‘tough shit’ part. I still prefer the ‘tough shit’ that protects society and its minorities from the worst excesses of prejudice-ridden hatred of Far Right populists and fascists.
And yes, there has been plenty of moaning and gnashing of teeth in Finland when these individuals have flouted Finland’s hate speech laws. Finland has legal standards which are upheld. But sadly, Finland’s political standards still lag way behind on the issue of fascism and neo-Nazism. These people should be totally isolated politically and publicly condemned.
Instead, we have fucking idiots like you pretending that it ‘does not harm’.
Shamelessly, you use the same the rationalizations the councilor used in presenting the clock as a gift. It’s just a clock with a picture of Hitler, surely it can’t cause any harm. You might as well use derogatory words on others and rationalize it in the same way. You are definitely a person with deep-rooted prejudices who will tolerate hate by saying “you are just having fun, is it bad to have some fun?”. Shame on you.
Unfortunately farang is not the only one who thinks this way, there’re many like him who do not appear to have any feelings towards other people. farang trying to defend racism and prejudice against minorities wich he appears to hate so much that he would use his precious time on attacking minorities or defending their rivals. farang your just giving bad picture of yourself, that’s all i have to say to you.