Thank the immigrants of Finland!

by , under All categories, Enrique

While some parties like the anti-immigration True Finns boast that they are responsible for bringing the debate on immigration and refugees to the national spotlight, nothing could be further from the truth.

Those that have brought the issue to national attention are none other than immigrants and refugees of this country.

They if any have shown the weaknesses and the strong points about our society. In the process they have also revealed pleasant and unpleasant matters about ourselves like the role of racism.

Would there be such a big debate if only a handful of immigrants lived among our ranks?

Probably not.

The national debate on immigrants is nothing more than reaction to the ever-growing immigrant population and its future role in our aging nation.

Too many of those taking part in the national debate are busy reacting to immigration as opposed to taking proactive stances and asking how do we make it work.

If a country wants to be receptive to immigration it has to see it through many angles. Why would any sensible person want to move to a country that vilifies certain groups and has a schizopohrenic view of the outside world?

Thus some of us want to slam the door on Muslims but promote “good” immigraition to the country; we want Finland to be a springboard to the Russian market even though prejudice against Russians is a serious issue.

Handing Finland’s future immigration policy to groups like the True Finns or succumbing to a policy of fear to the outside world will be like shooting oneself in the leg.

These groups, and those that side with their cause, will be the ones that will end up creating those ghettos and social inequality that they claim to be defending us from.

  1. Vedos

    The truth is propably more like, everywhere else in Europe there are places that live outside the law of the country and that started the turmoil and need for discussion.

    I mean I’ve been watching the discussion for many years from both sides and there’s no denying the fact that if it was up to finnish media, officials, or politicians. There would be no discussion. The “tolerant” side only wanted to discuss the discussion, not the issue itself. Only recently there has been some kind of real discussion that is interesting to watch.

    You are right, that it wasn’t the True Finns that revolutionized the discussion. In fact it was only one man, Jussi Halla-aho. Many years went by while everyone was trying to shut him up. Now his views are shifting to mainstream – be that good or not.

    I think there’s a lesson; If you try to tell people to shut up, they will get more motivated. If you forbid the discussion, you will get action. Some of it will be violent when the frustration reaches the sociopaths, like in Sweden now.

    I myself am very happy with the discussion now, but I think it’s all too late. True Finns will have a massive victory in the coming elections. And that is really not the fault of immigrants. It’s the fault of everyone that are pissing the common man off.

    • Enrique

      Good morning Vedos, interesting points. However, one thing are polls and another are elections. For the debate to end up in such a way is truly a show of failure of the government on tackling the issue. Maybe many feel the same way as the True Finns. We will see in April.

      You made an insteresting point. “Only recently there has been some kind of real discussion that is interesting to watch.” What issues are you talking about?

    • Enrique

      Vedos, a question: What has Halla-aho told us that we did not know before? That we dislike certain groups and that they are incompatible with our way of life?

  2. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, according to your logic if today I went out on the rain it wouldn’t my responsibility if I got wet, it would happened because the rains is wet.

    Interesting… But if I remember my school time combustive and oxygen alone won’t produce fire, you need a ignition.

    You are so pissed with the True Finns popularity, we can see it clearly in your writings. First you were denying that it would have any relevant impact, now that you can’t denying anymore the size of the discussion, and in particularly how many parties are join them in saying NO to Muslims like SDP, Greens and now Christians Democrats. But even though you can’t deny it the cold air Islamic immigration in Finland is getting, you still try to find a way to brush the True Finns aside.

    My Friend, let me tell you something. The True Finns main flag is that Muslims are not welcome in Finland. Day after day, more and more people, and even political parties are join them in saying the same. I understand you don’t agree with them (after all, Muslims are essential for social-reengineering Finland), but you just can’t deny it’s happening and who is causing it.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique, according to your logic if today I went out on the rain it wouldn’t my responsibility if I got wet, it would happened because the rains is wet.

      Sorry Tony but I don’t understand the logic.

      –My Friend, let me tell you something. The True Finns main flag is that Muslims are not welcome in Finland.

      All Muslims? Today the Muslims tomorrow maybe the Brazilians, Argentineans, Jews, Russians, gays, feminists etc.

  3. Tony Garcia

    How we, or as you say “these groups”, will end up creating ghettos if what we want is preventing immigration from the very same people who are constantly told by their fire-breading Imams (and heavily encouraged by multiculturalists) to go and live in ghettos, so they don’t get influenced by the decadent western culture?

    How can a ghetto be created if there no one to live in? That’s the best way to avoid ghettos…

    “Handing Finland’s future immigration policy to groups like the True Finns or succumbing to a policy of fear to the outside world will be like shooting oneself in the leg.”

    And bringing to a highly educated and technologic advanced society like Finland, a 20 years old Somali who can’t read and write in his own language is the way to go, isn’t?

    • Enrique

      –How can a ghetto be created if there no one to live in? That’s the best way to avoid ghettos

      The message of extremists in the True Finns party creates social exclusion. I don’t think I can explain it any simpler than it that form.

      –And bringing to a highly educated and technologic advanced society like Finland, a 20 years old Somali who can’t read and write in his own language is the way to go, isn’t?

      People are different from animals because they learn. By the way, that is the best definition I have ever heard (about 30 years ago) what is culture: Anything learned. So we learn not act on instinct. We bring people to this country on the basis of skills irrespective of their background. We also have refugees that come here and they can start their new life. Do you think that exclusion is the answer to your assimilation model? I think it would like shooting yourself in the leg and embracing failure with a very big capital F.

  4. Tony Garcia

    “Sorry Tony but I don’t understand the logic.”

    My logic is that for you is not the True Finns who is provoking the debate but the fact that there is immigrants in Finland. Only Having immigrants won’t provoke any debate unless some one triggers it. The True Finns in general, and as Vedos said, Halla-aho in particularly. You can’t give them the credit just because you hate them so much.

    “We also have refugees that come here and they can start their new life.”

    Make your case then, how you think a 20 years old Somali who can’t read his on language can move to Finland and be a qualified professional?

    “Do you think that exclusion is the answer to your assimilation model?”

    Absolutely not, the answer is not having these people in the first place, so exclusion is prevented from even starting.

    “Today the Muslims tomorrow maybe the Brazilians, Argentineans, Jews, Russians, gays, feminists etc.”

    Sorry but this is pure smear, and I won’t comment about it.

    • Enrique

      –Make your case then, how you think a 20 years old Somali who can’t read his on language can move to Finland and be a qualified professional?

      How do we treat those that are not as fortunate as the mainstream. How should our society relate to people who are different and not as fortuante and what opportunities do we give them? That is a very deep philosophical issue that fortunately the EU has overcome by trying to include everyone not exclude them.

      As I have told you, I have met and work with some Somalis. For a matter of fact I met the first one when they came to this country in the early 1990s. They are no different form you and me. Like us, they too search for meaning and security in life. In our society these people have a place. In your it is a question mark that points to exclusion.

    • Enrique

      –Sorry but this is pure smear, and I won’t comment about it.

      Read history. Extremism needs enemies for its raison d’être. Without enemies it will shrivel up and die.

  5. JusticeDemon

    You all either have very short memories or very limited experience.

    The debate on these questions dates back at least as far as the work of establishing the Association for Foreigners in Finland. In other words, to the late 70s and early 80s. This organisation needed a special dispensation from the Council of State in order to be registered, and one condition of that dispensation was that the organisation was required to submit a list of its members to the Ministry of the Interior every year.

    I wonder how many of the regular commentators on this blog would approve of such policies nowadays?

    Long before Halla-Aho, we had Sulo Aittoniemi – a police inspector of questionable competence (twice reprimanded by the Parliamentary Ombudsman) who resurrected his career as a populist Member of Parliament. “Suti” warned us that everything foreign was evil unless it had already been in Finland for so long that uneducated people had forgotten its foreign origins.

    Then in the late 90s we had Raimo Ilaskivi and his famous observation that Rasismi alkoi, kun ensimmäiset somaliryhmät tulivat maahan. That illustrates staggering ignorance of the basic terminology of the debate, of course, but perhaps the Coalition Party MEP advisers were still on their Christmas break in January 1998. Ilaskivi was also subsequently responsible for popularising the absurd expression ikärasisismi.

    Halla-Aho & Co. are very much products of the Internet age that allows anonymous commentary (some commentators still log into this blog from anonymous proxy servers in places like the Seychelles) and encourages the spread of urban mythology. Obviously someone now wants to create a new urban myth that these people created the current debate.

  6. JusticeDemon

    Ricky:

    “Do you think that exclusion is the answer to your assimilation model?”

    Tony:
    Absolutely not, the answer is not having these people in the first place, so exclusion is prevented from even starting.

    Get your degree in the same place as Dubya, Tony?

  7. Tony Garcia

    “Read history. Extremism needs enemies for its raison d’être. Without enemies it shrivel up and die.”

    True Finns are extremists only in your opinion, even the media has already stopped calling then even populists.

    “How do we treat those that are not as fortunate as the mainstream.”

    But that’s not your point, is it? You say we need them to help pay for your social security. How can they help if they only take from it? Sorry but your case is still weak the say the least.

    “As I have told you, I have met and work with some Somalis. ”

    I saw a similar “proof” from the local the Germany after the roll on Muslims. There are more then 4 millions Muslims in Germany and the local show ONE case of a Muslim woman who opened a hair saloon and it’s employing 3 people. I’m not say that there isn’t more cases, but those are so few that they probably need to show one per month, so they don’t run out of cases before the end of the year.

    The same goes to yours cases of “successful” Somalis, a little drop in the ocean.

    • Enrique

      According to Jera ja Jyri Hänninen, who published Tuhansien aatteiden maa. Ääriajattelua nyky-Suomessa, part of the True Finns can be classified as extremist. This includes Halla-aho and his merry gang of Islamophobes.

      JusticeDemon made a good point by showing how each decade had its figure. Does anyone remember them? Nope because they left nothing valuable for people to think about. The same will happen to those who are fulling the ethnic waters of Finland.

      Tony, in the first place nobody has to prove anything to you if he or she lives in a society.

  8. Tony Garcia

    “According to Jera ja Jyri Hänninen, who published Tuhansien aatteiden maa. Ääriajattelua nyky-Suomessa, part of the True Finns can be classified as an extremist.”

    Is that your case? “part of the ” and “can be”? Can’t you do any better? I’m really in a corner now, aren’t I?

    Nevertheless, yes, according to him. According to you True Finns are against all immigration. We can find those kind of opinions everywhere nowadays. No long ago leftists were saying that Marks was a visionary and the Soviet Union the future for the mankind.

    Interesting enough these same people are today insisting that the only way we can promote our western values is allow in a group completely against there very same values. Sorry but I don’t really give too much credit to those opinions, do you want to now why? Quick example…

    “This includes Halla-aho and his merry gang of Islamophobes.”

    For someone enlightened and in a fearless crusade against extremism this is such a way to express your opinion. It always amazes me how much you hate Halla-aho. BTW, if you are so much against extremism why you ignored the reports about left-wing extremism, specially that about left-wingers harassing Turkish in Germany?

    “Tony, in the first place nobody has to prove anything to you if he or she lives in a society.”

    A good way to say, I’m sorry but my case is weak…

    • Enrique

      –For someone enlightened and in a fearless crusade against extremism this is such a way to express your opinion.

      Humor is good medicine and where do you conclude that I would lower myself and hate a person? I have gotten past that phase a long time ago in my life. If I could, I would do a comedy with these characters. But as I mentioned in a previous thread, people in Finland who profess hatred and racism don’t last too long in the public mind. They appear, create a semi-commotion, and are forgotten history. A good example are “Suti” and Illaskivi.

      JusticeDemon did you know I was president of the Association of Foreign Students? Were you also? Ahti Tolvanen was another person who was involved a lot.

  9. Tony Garcia

    Talking about Halla-aho, what so you think about the court decision. I think it couldn’t be a better decision in a better time. I wrote to him offering to pay the fine, I think he could use a immigrant’s name to boost his popularity, but, apparently I have to join the queue.

    And about the decision? Excellent. His main point is that Muslims are above criticism. He writes about Muslims marrying minors, just few weeks after he was taking to the court for saying that, Chehab demanded the law to be changed so that could happened in Finland.

    So, if he was acquired his big case would be over, but now, he has the court decision to back up his case that Muslims are above criticism.

    This news has already been productive, last few days we have already seen some positive results.

    • Enrique

      Tony, you will be one of their first victims of Halla-aho and company if they ever get in power. Behaving kindly and acting like them will not save you from becoming a victim. It is like in Argentina when people disappeared during the dirty war. Nobody said anything but then when the person that said nothing was apprehended nobody spoke out for him either. Don’t be so naive.

  10. Tony Garcia

    “Humor is good medicine and where do you conclude that I would lower myself and hate a person?”

    Well I think in the multicultural world “gang of Islamophobes” supposed to be funny. Apologies for my lack of multicultural humor…

    “Tony, you will be one of their first victims of Halla-aho and company if they ever get in power.”

    You insist in accuse people without provide any proof. And yet when a Muslim is arrested trying to blow up the Washington subway, like 2 days ago, you just ignore. Sorry but I don’t know exactly how this will help anyone.

    However (let me be a proud father here) I’ll have to have a break now, my children are ready to go for trick or treading. My son is the scariest vampire in tow and my little princess the cutest witch ever.

    Happy Halloween to all…

    • Enrique

      Interesting that they go from house to house in Ireland as well. It was great fun trick-or-treating when I was a kid. If a kid comes to your home ask him: Show me a trick and I will give you a treat.

      This all came to an abrupt end when we heard that people in our neighborhood were giving apples with razor blades inside. Trust is very important in society. Trust is a bridge and without it we are doomed.

    • Enrique

      Here is an odd statement that appeared in Etelä-Suomen Sanomat: Asikkalalainen perussuomalaisten valtuutettu James Hirvisaari on antanut tiedotteen, jossa hän kiistää ehdottomasti syyllistyneensä blogikirjoituksellaan kiihottamiseen kansanryhmää vastaan. Hän pitää syytettä poliittisena ajojahtina.

      Now read this: “Valitettavasti hillittömän muslimimaahanmuuton myötä Suomessakin tulee olemaan lisääntyvässä määrin myös ihka aitoa rasismia, joka kohdistuu varsinkin juutalaisiin mutta myös kantaväestöön ja muihin etnisiin ryhmiin. Ja kaupan päälle syrjintää, sietämätöntä ylimielisyyttä ja huonoa käytöstä, vihaa, naisten alistamista, lasten silpomista, seksuaalista häiriköintiä ja vähemmistöjen vainoa, mellakointia, lippujen polttelua, älämölöä, huumeita, ryöstelyä, raiskausrikoksia, pedofiliaa, polygamiaa, lapsiavioliittoja, häpeäväkivaltaa, rituaaliteurastuksia, ruoskimisrangaistuksia, kivityksiä ynnä muita läpeensä inhottavia ja umpikieroutuneita tapoja ja ilmiöitä. Lopulta jopa itsemurhapommituksia ja terrorismia. Siis jos emme tanssi tasan tarkkaan heidän pillinsä mukaan.”

      This was in Hirvisaari’s Facebook page but is no longer on it. Did his lawyers advise him that it was in his best interest to take these type of statements off Facebook? He calls this “freedom of expression.” I call it outright Islamophobia with a heavy dose of irrational bravado.

      You can find this writing from the following link/and here.

  11. JusticeDemon

    Section 10 of chapter 11 of the Finnish Penal Code (the chapter entitled War crimes and crimes against humanity) reads as follows:

    Joka yleisön keskuuteen levittää lausuntoja tai muita tiedonantoja, joissa uhataan, panetellaan tai solvataan jotakin kansallista, etnistä, rodullista tai uskonnollista ryhmää taikka niihin rinnastettavaa muuta kansanryhmää, on tuomittava kiihottamisesta kansanryhmää vastaan sakkoon tai vankeuteen enintään kahdeksi vuodeksi.

    It seems fairly clear to me that the Facebook text is intended to abuse a religious group, though there could be room for some hairsplitting.

    The expression sietämätön ylimielisyys at the beginning of the diatribe is very revealing indeed.

    Give the guy a gold star for not confusing prejudice and discrimination, though. That’s already an improvement over Raimo Ilaskivi and many others, including several contributors to this blog debate.

    • Enrique

      JusticeDemon, Hirvisaari cuts through the you-know-what and makes the job of the prosecutor much easier. What is the most incredible statement after that diatribe is that he claims that he is only exercising his right to “freedom of speech.” As a journalist who has worked in this profession for about 25 years in countries like Colombia, such a statement could not be farther from the truth. In my opinion, it is a slap in the face to all those people who live in countries where liberty of expression has been compromised. I sent Hirvisaari an email asking where that text he wrote in Facebook was. Every time I inquire for information from far-right partis like SD in Sweden, Jobbik in Hungary and others, I never get an answer.

      Sorry Tony, is this what I am saying just a bunch of “left-wing flower power” or do you want to paint it with some PC (political correctess)?

  12. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, lets first see what you are trying to achieve here. If you want to use Hirvisaari’s comments to prove that True Finns are anti-immigration, you probably know that you didn’t do a good job, don’t you? However if you want to prove they are anti-Muslims, of course they are, that’s why I work very hard on their behalf. That’s why they are getting so much support.

    Now about his comments… Well quite a list, everyone here already know you would called it Islamophobia, what else could you call it? But I would call it Islamoreality. You could do all us a favor and point out, from that list, what is not true. What in that list Muslims don’t do?

    About the lawyer, I would think so, we know that Muslims are above criticism, we even have a court decision proving that. But things changes, maybe… just maybe, after next election the winds may gat a bit colder for Muslims in Finland. We’ll have to wait and see…

    • Enrique

      Tony, the anti-Muslim is only a red herring to hide his general xenophobia. This is the shift in the hate message of the extreme right in Finland: we hate Muslims but we love immigrants. Please don’t be so naive. And let me ask you a question: Do you agree with what he wrote?

  13. Tony Garcia

    “do you want to paint it with some PC (political correctess)?”

    Don’t know, you are the one here who believes in political correctness, I’m the one against it, remember?

    If write whatever you have in mind is not freedom of expression, tell us what freedom of expression is? Furthermore what is you opinion about the first amendment? Do you think it has gone too far?

  14. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    I know several Moslems who are not rapists. In fact the overwhelming majority of Moslems are not rapists. This is one reason why it is a criminal offence in Finland to say what Hirvisaari said in his blog. I also understand that at least one Brazilian in history has been convicted of rape. Can I call all Brazilians rapists for this reason? Not in Finland. Do you get it now?

    If not, then you should not be allowed to come to Finland, as you consider it acceptable to express your avowed anti-Islamic sentiments in a manner that is a deportable criminal offence in Finland. Mark my words, Tony, you could be kicked out of Finland for saying what Hirvisaari said in his blog.

  15. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, the anti-Muslim is only a red herring to hide his general xenophobia.”

    Sorry but you don’t have proof of that.

    “Do you agree with what he wrote?”

    Please, first anwser my question, what on that list is not true?

    • Enrique

      –Please, first anwser my question, what on that list is not true?

      Don’t be ridiculous. I could also put a list of things the “white” man has done and ask you the same question. So you agree.

      I personally hope they throw the book at this man. Have you also promised to pay his fine if he’s sentenced as well as do jail time?

      If we know what Muslims have done to you we’d know the root of your thoughts. Since you keep this a secret and hide behind these types of people, it is difficult to understand why you feel the same way.

  16. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    Political correctness is describing someone’s grandmother as an elderly plump lady and not as a fat old woman. It’s the reason why we say mute instead of dumb and gay instead of queer, or mentally handicapped instead of feeble minded.

    Perhaps you would see nothing wrong with people in Finland calling you a dago. Maybe the local nursery school staff should use this term to describe your children? After all, you don’t believe in political correctness, so why should you care?

    Political correctness is a modern expression that means good manners. I’m not surprised that you don’t subscribe to it.

  17. Tony Garcia

    “Don’t be reiculous.”

    Am I? Alright then, so I’m. He wrote a list and you asked me if I agree with it, I asked you a valid question, is that true? If it’s I do agree, if isn’t I don’t. That simple. You didn’t touch the list because for you the truth is irrelevant, what matter is if it will offend Muslims. Well, truth many times offends.

    “I personally hope they throw the book at this man.”

    Of course you do, what else could you hope for? Shut him up, of course. See if there is any truth on what he’s saying? No way…

    “If we know what Muslims have done to you we’d know the root of your thoughts.”

    The root of my, and millions around Europe (2 out of 3 in Germany, just for a quick example), thoughts are the reality. You insist in live in your parallel universe where Muslims only want to hold our hand and sing kumbaya.

  18. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, If we know how much good Muslims have done to you we’d know the root of your thoughts. So tell us.

    You could also tell us how many hospitals they have built in Europe, how about schools, universities, research centers, museums, etc… Please, help us to understand how much good they have do to us.

    • Enrique

      Tony, I am surprised that an educated man can loathe a group like that. The big difference between your thinking and mine is that I have seen war and racial hatred. They have been humbling experiences that have taught me to be a better human being and not go around bashing everyone across the head that I do not like.

      I truly believe that if some of these people that you support had a major say in Finnish politics, we would be doomed. We’d go through the 1930s over again and then there would be some noble movements like the White Rose that would stand up to all the hatred and irrationality.

  19. Klay_Immigrant

    It’s Finland right if it doesn’t want to change but remain as it is by closing it’s doors. Terms such as racism or xenophobia need not apply as it’s their democratic right. When they eventually need certain types of immigrants the demand will always exceed supply.

    Russia has Siberia, The US has Alaska, and Europe has Finland. Just let them be in peace and tranquility.

    • Enrique

      –Terms such as racism or xenophobia need not apply as it’s their democratic right.

      Yes, right, there are laws and its a crime. By the way, a friend of mine put it in the following context: You can be racist but do it in your room. Look at the mirror and ask yourself why you are such an CENSORED and why you are unemployed?

  20. Tony Garcia

    Well, Enrique, as usual it all ends in sentimentalism. As Prager said so eloquently, left-wing ideologies and its latest manifestation, multiculturalism, are empty and vacuous. Lefts thought is an oxymoron, and that goes for multiculturalism.

    Multicultural ideology is a emotion based ideology not a thought based one. That’s way when we bring here what Muslims do we never goes to whatever this is truth or not, instead if it’s right or wrong to say it. Furthermore, if offends when we say it.

    An example…

    “The big difference between your thinking and mine is that I have seen war and racial hatred. ”

    So, the difference is what you have seen, not if what I said is truth or not. Another example…

    “…movements like the White Rose that would stand up to all the hatred and irrationality.”

    Again emotions but in any movement touching on the subject…

    • Enrique

      Tony, I would say that Prager does not have the faintest idea what are civil liberties never mind what multiculturalism is. By multiculturalism I mean societies that are culturally diverse. Diversity is not a sickness it is an asset.

  21. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, I would say that Prager does not have the faintest idea what are civil liberties never mind what multiculturalism is.”

    Have you noticed from how many people you have said this? I lost the count already…

  22. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Yes, right, there are laws and its a crime.’

    So it’s a crime if a Finland democratically votes to tighten immigration or the ruling government decides to do so? It seems to me that everything is a crime unless you agree with it, even a referendum banning minerets by a clear margin was somehow unlawful and that is direct democracy.

    According to you Enrique it’s a Somalis’ right to be allowed to live in Finland but not Finland’s right to prohibit them from doing so. There’s a reason why borders exist and it’s the host country who decides who comes in not the person wanting to come in.

    With your logic on this matter the same would apply for myself to have the right to enter anyone’s house I choose but not for the owner to kick me out. Does that make sense? Obviously not but simple logic and not applying double standards or contradictions was never high up the Left’s priorities. Their Slogan should be DIVERSITY AT ALL COSTS.

    • Enrique

      I don’t know if Klay and Tony live in the EU.They sound like they live in some society faraway from the world that I know.

  23. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘As Prager said so eloquently, left-wing ideologies and its latest manifestation, multiculturalism, are empty and vacuous.’

    Tony another example regarding immigration was what the Liberal Democrats wanted to do in the last recent election to illegal immigrants. Their policy was an amnesty for any illegal immigrant who has been in the U.K. for 10 years and grant them British nationality and with that entitlement for welfare or employment.

    One problem that amazingly escaped their minds was that it’s virtually impossible to certify how long an illegal immigrant has been in the country as no official formal documents have ever been granted by the U.K. Evidence of a emotion based ideology but not a thought based one.

  24. Tony Garcia

    ” Evidence of a emotion based ideology but not a thought based one.”

    Welcome to the left-wing world. I’m still waiting Enrique show to us those laws…

    • Enrique

      –” Evidence of a emotion based ideology but not a thought based one.”

      You are really funny. Now you come to tell me that in society there are no values except your own, which have no values. The reason why I asked if you guys are in Europe is because both of you are quite unfamiliar with our way of life and the values we hold important. I think it is time to do some adapting and learning about our values. How is that for starters? Lesson number one: discrimination is a crime punishable by law. Lesson number two: far-right parties base their reason for being on hatred of other groups.

  25. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    “…it’s virtually impossible to certify how long an illegal immigrant has been in the country…”?

    You don’t accept witness statements, signatures on tenancy agreements, congregation rolls, utility and other bills delivered to a person by name at a certain address, photographs of an individual at specific public events (sometimes also published in newspapers) or even expired leave to enter endorsements made by border control officials (overstaying is the principal form of unlawful residence)?

    Perhaps you just didn’t think of these and dozens of other ways to show where a person has been living. If you did, then why did you dismiss them? Evidence of this kind is admitted in judicial and administrative procedures every day.

    • Enrique

      –That we know. What we are asking is the law against racism, please.

      So please enlighten us and tell me where you want to lead us although I can already get a whiff of your drift.

    • Enrique

      Here is some stuff for you to chew on and how to become a member of our society in the European Union. Sorry, but I have to make the difference because all the time you speak like you were totally ignorant about our values on such an important topic as racism.

      As a follow-up to Joint Action96/443/JHA, this framework decision provides for the approximation of laws and regulations of the Member States on offences involving racism and xenophobia. Racist and xenophobic behaviour must constitute an offence in all Member States and must be punishable by effective, proportionate and dissuasive penalties of a maximum of at least one to three years of imprisonment.

      I highly recommend you learn these because you could get yourself in a lot of hot water starting at your job.

  26. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    “discrimination is a crime punishable by law.”

    That we know. What we are asking is the law against racism, please.

    Now this indicates that you have learned the difference between prejudice and discrimination. Bravo!

    You have already been referred above to the law that bans incitement against a population group. It’s the law that would get you deported if you published a blog making blanket offensive claims about the moral character or behaviour of Moslems, Jews, Chinese people or Brazilians.

    It’s really very simple, Tony. If you call your priest a paedophile, then he may sue you for defamation. If you call all Roman Catholics paedophiles, then you will be prosecuted for incitement, and it will not be an adequate defence to cite individual cases of child molestation by Roman Catholics, even if they are priests. If you consider either of these laws to be an unreasonable restriction on your freedom of expression, then you are free to campaign to change them, but such campaigning does not entitle you to immunity from the consequences of those laws while they remain in force.

    The maximum penalty for incitement is a two-year prison term. This means that you can be deported for committing this offence, even if you only get a fine.

    I look forward to reading your blog with interest.

  27. Tony Garcia

    Good spin Enrique, just like the Minarets on/and Mosques. You really like to burn your fingers, don’t you?

    You clearly said racism and xenophobia are against the law, to prove that you show to us framework decision, not against racism itself, but against acts, with is quite different. Racism and xenophobia are opinions, and as such they can’t be against the law. As you pointed out more than once here, there is no law with forces me or any Finn to like Muslims. Period.

    Racism and xenophobia can only be “combated” using the Minister of Love. Maybe you would like to have one in Finland…

    • Enrique

      Sorry Tony, but I think to make your stay in the EU would be more pleasant if you follow the law. I think children learn this at school already.

      What you say to yourself in the privacy of your home about others is your business. Do it in public then carry the responsibility – face it like a man as Klay would say. It is that easy. That is how things work in Finland and the EU. And remember ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law. Even Hirvisaari and Halla-aho should understand that.

      But isn’t odd that people who are supposed to have had an education act as if they are lost when dealing with people from other cultures. They go wild and do things that they’d never imagine doing or saying to people in their own culture. Rule number one: Treat others as you would treat yourself. The Christian equivalent is: “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” See how simple it is?

  28. xyz

    Racism and xenophobia can only be “combated” using the Minister of Love. Maybe you would like to have one in Finland…
    -Or by getting to know the people you hate

  29. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, I’m a bit confused here, not long ago you said…

    “So, what you have learned, and your strong opinions on the subject must be from Europe.”

    Now you say…

    “all the time you speak like you were totally ignorant about our values ”

    Please help me, are my values and opinions coming from Brazil or Europe…

  30. Tony Garcia

    “Sorry Tony, but I think to make your stay in the EU would be more pleasant if you follow the law.”

    I’m braking any law, there no law witch say I must like Muslins…

    • Enrique

      Of course there is no law that says you must like anyone. Here is what Päivi Räsänen, president of the KD party in Finland. She has got a lot of flack for her stand on homosexuality and for suggesting that only Christian refugees should be accepted in Finland. Anyway, this is what she says about the Muslims:

      Korostan vielä sitä, että suuri osa Euroopan ja Suomen muslimiväestöstä on rauhaa tahtovia, tavallista arkea eläviä kansalaisia. Esimerkiksi Suomen tataariväestö on integroitunut yhteiskuntaamme erinomaisen hyvin ja on osa kantaväestöämme. Muslimipakolaiset ovat lähtömaasta ja sen olosuhteista riippuen heterogeeninen ryhmä aivan kuten muidenkin uskontokuntien edustajat.

      That is why what you say, what Halla-aho and his merry band are saying is foreign to many people who live in this country. What makes it even more suspect is that these characters are using such statments to get elected. But I and JusticeDemon know Finland pretty well because we have lived here for such a long time. And what we know is that even if these persons may get elected they will be quickly forgotten because, like Suti and Illaskivi, brought absolutely nothing to this country and to its future generations.

  31. Tony Garcia

    However… There are laws witch say they can’t do all listed by Hirvisaari. Maybe you should tell them that to make their stay in the EU would be more pleasant if they follow the law.

  32. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘signatures on tenancy agreements, congregation rolls, utility and other bills delivered to a person by name at a certain address, photographs of an individual at specific public events (sometimes also published in newspapers) or even expired leave to enter endorsements made by border control officials (overstaying is the principal form of unlawful residence)?’

    You really are naive about illegal immigration and their way of life.

    Most illegals would never open up a bank account as a valid passport is needed sometimes other documents such as residence permits to prove your legality in the country. Because of that bills wouldn’t be paid under their name.

    They would avoid public photgraphs of themselves especially as Britain in the most surveillanced country in the world and their overstayed endorsements doesn’t mean they have stayed 10 years or more without ever leaving the country and coming back.

    In other words they keep a low profile and stay underground as much as possible to reduce the chance of ever getting caught with many never even using their real names in the first place. It’s highly unlikely they would they have their real name and address linked together where they could be found easily.

    If somebody did all these activities while being illegal it’s no different than a bank robber entering a bank without a mask on to carry out his crime. I doubt under those circumstances an illegal immigrant would de able to stay unnoticed for 10 years without being caught. If they did they should consider themselves very lucky.

  33. Klay_Immigrant

    With witness statements an employer wouldn’t come forward as they could be charged with hiring illegal people to work for them, friends and family are never the most reliable sources as there could be obvious bias, so your left with very few if any legal resided people who can successfully verify that an illegal person has been an ever present for 10 years or more.

  34. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    So it’s your opinion that courts and administrative authorities are incapable of assessing the admissibility of evidence?

    1. Where did I mention bank accounts? (BTW a passport is only one optional form of identification required to open an account – not the only form.)

    2. There is an long-standing assumption in UK common law that a postmarked letter constitutes prima facie evidence of the recipient’s address. This is a consequence of laws and customs governing the secrecy of postal communications.

    3. A leave to enter endorsement constitutes prima facie evidence of the time of entry. The authority bears the burden of proving its assertion of departure and re-entry. This is also an established common law principle.

    4. Most snapshots taken in Piccadilly Circus can be dated to within 2 or 3 years according to the changing advertising hoardings.

    5. Typical witnesses include the leaders and members of religious congregations, schoolteachers, neighbours and activists with voluntary organisations and charities. The presumption of bias is something for the court to consider. Perhaps suprisingly for you, the court does not begin from the assumption that such witnesses are liars, but instead applies long-established principles for weighing the credibility of testimony.

    The point here is that there are no special standards of evidence governing these cases. If the evidence of a single eye witness is enough to place you at the scene of a crime, then it is a fortiori enough to place you at a particular point in the UK at a certain time. When a prima facie case has been made for an assertion the burden of proving otherwise passes to the other party.

  35. Vedos

    “Good morning Vedos, interesting points. However, one thing are polls and another are elections. For the debate to end up in such a way is truly a show of failure of the government on tackling the issue. Maybe many feel the same way as the True Finns. We will see in April.”

    Yes, get back to you on that.

    “You made an insteresting point. “Only recently there has been some kind of real discussion that is interesting to watch.” What issues are you talking about?”

    I’m talking about the advancement that has been made by stating the negatives. No one really likes an overly positive fake sugarcoating of things. That’s the mistake the media made. They stopped being the watchdogs they should be and started making political statements. Looking at the universities today, it’s clear what kind of politics they are.


    Vedos, a question: What has Halla-aho told us that we did not know before? That we dislike certain groups and that they are incompatible with our way of life?”

    It’s not what he told. It’s how he changed the dynamics:

    So, he stated the negatives and asked questions. There was an immediate smut program and straight lies to make him seem stupid, laughable and evil – not one of his first opponents took any kind of stand towards the things he was writing about.

    No debunking, no rational counter arguments, no progress.

    Lately there has been positive progress. Fe. Husein Muhamed has been pointing some of the Halla-aho’s arguments false. How long it took? About 5 years! 5 years of tantrum filled crisis.

    To me it seems, the discussion has moved to the real issue from the meta discussion and discussion about Halla-aho and why you don’t like him. It should never be why or who’s saying and always about what is being said and if it’s true or not.

    People don’t like to be told what they should think or feel. Lay down the facts and let them make their minds. While you are taking pictures of wall paintings and talking about hidden, structural racism, there are things at motion right now. Things that are far worse:

    http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/105083-20-skinheadia-riehui-koko-yon-– poliisilla-kiire

    You said: “Anything learned”, it seems the 90’s really didn’t teach anything, because it’s happening again. Fe. everyone’s fuzzing about these humanitarian immigrants, their grandmothers, who need this and that, or how women need better opportunities, while neglecting the fact, that young men are without jobs, failing at school, not interested voting or talking href=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puukkojunkkari”>it’s not a new concept in Finland. There’s a culture of violence and it’s somehow always underestimated, like it’ll never happen again.

    “Mythologies live in us
    And when they are not acknowledged
    They will take control of us”

    • Enrique

      Vedos, why then are the few immigrants living here in Finland are the scapegoat? What have they done to derserve the wrath of these individuals? So you are telling me because one group of Finns are “elitists” and another one from “the people” immigrants should now feel the brunt of this age-old conflict.

      How racist is Finland? I think the jury is still out. Who is to blame for the situation? Look at ourself. Look at our society. Look at our welfare system and our aging population? Look at our values and our inability to deal with Otherness? How can so few immigrants create such a commotion and affect an election? Because in every society you have the opportunists and the greedy that only look after their short-term gain.

      Halla-aho and his merry band are an example of part of this society’s inability to deal with globalization, recession and ask serious questions who we are. Their answer is a reaction to immigration. They comprise that part of Finland that grew up with a very limitted idea of its identity (low self-esteem). But I feel that Finns will not fall into that trap. They will find their own solutions and not copy far-right ideas from other countries and apply them here.

      By the way we did that in the 1930s with pretty dismal results.

  36. Tony Garcia

    “It should never be why or who’s saying and always about what is being said and if it’s true or not.”

    I don’t think we’ll even see this in here, unfortunately…

  37. Tiwaz

    JD:
    “I know several Moslems who are not rapists. In fact the overwhelming majority of Moslems are not rapists.”

    Ah, again attempt to use false information. Huge, MASSIVE majority of Finns are not rapists. Or alcoholics either.

    But that is irrelevant as JD knows, her arguments are built around attempts to provide misinformation.

    PERCENTAGES are what we should look at. What are the percentages of immigrant rapists from Islamic world vs baseline of native, ethnic Finns?

    When we look at statistics, we discover that in rape cases rapist is in 80% of cases Finn and in 20% of cases person of foreign origin (not citizen of Finland or born outside Finland).

    Finns represent well over 90% of population.

    Source:
    Kainulainen, Heini: Raiskattu? tutkimus raiskausten käsittelemisestä rikosprosessissa

  38. Tony Garcia

    “What we want are results.”

    If so why you insist we should accept Somalis? It has been proved, beyond the doubt, that they fail wherever they go – US, UK, Sweden, Denmark, Finland…

    • Enrique

      –If so why you insist we should accept Somalis? It has been proved, beyond the doubt, that they fail wherever they go.

      I don’t buy what you say. By the same token we could state that the Mexicans and Central Americans in the US are in the same league. But what would you suggest to enforce your plan? Would you put a sign stating that we won’t accept Somalis? I think this is not possible due to our interenational agreements Finland has signed regarding refugees. Such a measure would do greater harm to ourselves than the measure. In Canada and the US they had laws that barred certain nationalities like the Chinese, Indians etc.

      JusticeDemon has said in previous threads what the consequences would be if we stopped accepting refugees.

  39. Tony Garcia

    “I don’t buy what you say.”

    Good because I’m not the one saying, it’s the US government. Do I need to place those links here again, do I?

    “By the same token we could state that the Mexicans and Central Americans in the US are in the same league.”

    Nop we can’t, the documents specifically point that Somalis are the worst group in the US.

    “Would you put a sign stating that we won’t accept Somalis? ”

    Nop, we just need to apply our immigration laws. The only laws you don’t really care if are not enforced. Controlled freedom of speech – YES, immigration – NO.

    “I think this is not possible due to our interenational agreements Finland has signed regarding refugees.”

    Finland has to conceder their case, not accept them, the decision is totally at the FIS discretion. Iceland, witch are bound to all laws that Finland is, accept 40 asylum seekers per year.

    “JusticeDemon has said bla bla bla”

    Yes, he did it, didn’t he?

    PS: that’s how Vedos was saying you should do: debate the points – don’t attach the person…

    • Enrique

      –Good because I’m not the one saying, it’s the US government. Do I need to place those links here again, do I?

      Could you provide the source or where you said this. I don’t recall any official document from the US where it says it will not accept Somalis.

    • Enrique

      –Finland has to conceder their case, not accept them, the decision is totally at the FIS discretion. Iceland, witch are bound to all laws that Finland is, accept 40 asylum seekers per year.

      Thank you for confirming this. As you can see my huntch was right: Change the laws, water down civil rights and now start changing international agreements. OK, fine. Thank you for the heads up.

    • Enrique

      –“JusticeDemon has said bla bla bla”

      I believe he made a very valid point that you should take into consideration.

      –that’s how Vedos was saying you should do: debate the points – don’t attach the person…

      That is what we have been doing all the time. The matters that that he represents.

  40. Tony Garcia

    “Could you provide the source or where you said this. I don’t recall any official document from the US where it says it will not accept Somalis.”

    Enrique, what is the matter with you? Please read what I wrote…

    “the documents specifically point that Somalis are the worst group in the US.”

    The documents say they have failed miserably in the US, but if you don’t remember (I bet you don’t) on my lunch time I’ll provide it again for you. I’ll provide you the Migrants Tales article and comment number where you can find it, don’t worry. Please don’t forget that all our conversation here is all on the record.

    “Thank you for confirming this. As you can see my huntch was right: Change the laws, water down civil rights and now start changing international agreements.”

    I’ll ask again, what is the matter with you? Who said any law must be changed? FIS need to consider their cases not accept it. No law must be changed, the laws are all there already, it only needs to be enforced.

    “That is what we have been doing all the time.”

    Some times you do, but you do a lot of personal attach as well. However you never debated any of Halla-aho’s points. Maybe you should do this sometime, just for a change…

    • Enrique

      You said that the US government does not want Somalis. However, in the documents that you sent there is no such statements. It mentions social problems in the US and the civil war in Somalia. I think it would be pretty odd for a government to openly state that it does not want nationals from such a country.

  41. Tony Garcia

    “You said that the US government does not want Somalis.”

    Where did I say that?

    Enrique, stop doing this please, it doesn’t really look good for man like you play this silly game. What I said is that they fail whatever they go, you know this very well, it’s all on the record. If you can debate this point fine, if you can’t just leave it, it’s ok.

  42. Tony Garcia

    “Tiwaz: lol!”

    Enrique, everyday you improve your arguments, It’s getting more and more difficult to debate you. How can we argue against a well articulated and thought through argument like this one?

    • Enrique

      How can you answer the same question over and over again? Should I say COL (cry outloud)?

  43. Tony Garcia

    “How can you answer the same question over and over again?”

    Actually you are right, it’s quite boring and totally contra-productive when we have to be repeating the same stuff over and over. I just had a dose of it when I proved the failure of Somalis in the US and Europe, but you insisted I was talking about the US is rejecting them. I give you an apple and you reply to me what a nice orange. Very annoying indeed.

    • Enrique

      Tony, the most interesting aspect of the discourse of the far-right that encourages exclusion and values that are foreign to our societies is that that type of behavior is normal and acceptable. As you know it is not.

      So now you are no longer blaming all Arabs but only Somalis. Is this an improvement?

  44. Tony Garcia

    “So now you are no longer blaming all Arabs but only Somalis. Is this an improvement?”

    Arabs? Who ever blamed Arabs? I don’t remember ever saying the word Arab in this blog. There you are again bringing race to the discussion. Let me quote someone from this blog…

    “How can you answer the same question over and over again?”

    • Enrique

      Wait a minute… So it’s the Muslims NOT Arabs but then you hit the Somalis. Funny logic.

    • Enrique

      This is the quote you could cite over and over again: The most interesting aspect of the discourse of the far-right that encourages exclusion and values that are foreign to our societies is that that type of behavior is normal and acceptable. It is not.

  45. JusticeDemon

    Tell us about Brazilians, Tony. I’ve heard that they are responsible for the single most serious act of ecological vandalism in the 20th century. Should we let such people come anywhere near our forests?

  46. Tony Garcia

    “Funny logic.”

    Really? Good, have a laugh then…

    I thought Islam was a religion, a combination of values and belief with forges the way people see the world and behave in society. Most of this behavior, unfortunately, incompatible with our western values and, most importantly, our laws. Reason why they are trouble whatever they go.

    Arabic just a race. Isn’t there many Arabic Christians? Or Arabic Atheists?

    And Somali, people coming from probably one of the most primitive, violent and broken society in the world today. Reason why they are failing miserably wherever they go.

    I see 3 different things here, however, sorry if I’m wrong.

    • Enrique

      –Most of this behavior, unfortunately, incompatible with our western values and, most importantly, our laws. Reason why they are trouble whatever they go.

      I have been following some far-right groups and speakers and they have the same message: this group is incompatible with our culture therefore… If you change this group (Muslims in your case) to another minority how does it sound? Why not include gays? What about the Roma? How many incompatible groups are there anyway? Or is it just one?

      So if, as you claim, the Somals are failing, what is your remedy?

    • Enrique

      Yes, JusticeDemon, these Brazilian “cultural clones” are so amoral. They are incompatible with our culture.

  47. JusticeDemon

    Ricky

    You saw the picture at the top of the page. Bacchanalian orgies in the street with no respect for our religion or our halls of learning.

    • Enrique

      This is disgusting, JusticeDemon. These people are amoral and incompatible with out culture. They are a threat to monoculture whatever that is.

  48. Tony Garcia

    “Or is it just one?”

    For me? only one.

    “So if, as you claim, the Somals are failing, what is your remedy?”

    Why do I need to have any remedy? Why do you? And, most importantly, why do Finland? Their problems are their problems, we have enough of our own. If they can here and help us, fine, if they can’t, sorry but we need to find who can.

    “They are incompatible with our culture.”

    Enrique, have you seen pictures from those “escolas de samba”? How many Brazilians can you find? I used to go to “Roseira” in Tampere and I was the only non-Finn in there. Did we bring Samba Carnaval to Finland or Finns freely decided to import it? If you think samba in incompatible with Finnish culture your should tell the Finns about it, not us.

  49. Tony Garcia

    http://www.roseira.net/sivut/03_yhteystiedot.htm

    Enrique, here is Roseira’s contact page with all the names and numbers. You could contact them and say that Samba is not part of Finnish culture. You can say that you know a Brazilian (me) who totally agrees with you.

    However, based on the names in that list, I advice you to write in Finnish rather then Portuguese, just in case…

  50. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    But that’s not the point is it?

    Dancing half naked in the street with fire-eaters and bongo drums is not part of Finnish culture. We are a tolerant society, but why do these people have to do this in front of our country’s best known church building and its leading university? We can provide a suitable venue in Ivalo sometime between January and March.

    I think we need to require Brazilians to sign an undertaking not to behave like this in Finland and not to destroy our forests. Any conduct of this kind should mean instant deportation.

    Tolerance is a great Finnish virtue. We shouldn’t waste it on these undisciplined Hispanic savages. What have they ever done for the world?

    • Enrique

      Isn’t that pretty much the gist of your message about Muslims and Somalis? Do you see how ridiculous it is? Apart from that it is also the easiest thing to loathe a group.

  51. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    The point is that Finland does not need Hispanic eco-vandals with no sense of public decency. You have to integrate when you come here, or you will find yourself on the first plane out again and good riddance to you.

    I’d tell you to go back to the jungle, but you’ve burned it all down.

    • Enrique

      –I’d tell you to go back to the jungle, but you’ve burned it all down.

      I tried to hold back my laughter but let out a monstrous LOL! Don’t take it personally, Tony. I hope these examples show how simplistic it is to blame somebody for your own problems with the weapon of fear.

  52. Tony Garcia

    “Isn’t that pretty much the gist of your message about Muslims and Somalis? ”

    Nop isn’t. Who are dancing carnaval on the streets of Finland are Finns not Brazilians. That makes not only your point invalid, but it shows a silly attempt to spin the debate.

    If Brazilians were doing that against the will of the Finns I’d be the first to condemn it, and you know that. All immigrants, including Brazilians, have the obligation to adapt and assimilate to the host culture, or go back home.

    Why do you play so silly? because i brought up here hard facts that Somalis are a catastrophic failure wherever they go, and once you want to blame their failure on Finns, you just need to find a way to escape from the debate. Quite disappointing I must say.

    “Don’t take it personally, Tony.”

    Common Enrique, do you really think I give any credit to what Demon says? I usually don’t even read what he writes. Haven’t I show this already?

    • Enrique

      –Why do you play so silly? because i brought up here hard facts that Somalis are a catastrophic failure wherever they go, and once you want to blame their failure on Finns, you just need to find a way to escape from the debate.

      With this kind of will nothing will ever be accomplished except higher walls that separate people.

      When you talk about assimilating into Finnish culture, could you tell us how this is done? Thank you.

  53. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    Hard fact: Brazilians are burning down the Amazon rain forest. They are failures, even in their own country.

    We must keep them under surveillance in Finland and not allow them to buy matches or gasoline.

  54. Tony Garcia

    “With this kind of will nothing will ever be accomplished except higher walls that separate people. ”

    We don’t need to have walls if those people are not among us. That’s has always be my case here – wise immigration policy and proper enforcement of our immigration laws. We avoid marginalization by not having those who marginalize themselves. The problem is solved even before it begins.

    “When you talk about assimilating into Finnish culture, could you tell us how this is done? Thank you.”

    Well, this is done case by case. What one must do assimilate it may different that what another must. But I can give you a real live example. The sauna case I already said here. Many immigrants were not used to those sauna party, but just said “what a hell”, however, one said “the party is over”.

    So, there you go, 2 different attitudes, witch one do you think brought unity, cohesion and team spirit?

    Another good example is the Muslim cook who demand that pork must be removed from the restaurant’s menu when he was on duty by himself.

    • Enrique

      Tony, I strongly believe that your assimilation model won’t work by forcing people to go to sauna or asking them to. These are complex matters that deal with complex matters like human relations.

      So you think that the best way of solving all the problems is to kick out those who do not assimilate and not let those who don’t. I think this is unworkable and would never even be accepted by sensible conservatives. Tony, understand that Europe is already culturally diverse. That means now. So in this respect your solution to the problem is a failure because it does not take into account the present situation.

      But you said it once: We should force those you don’t like to leave. Hmmmmm. That was tried by Nazi Germany under the guise of a sinister concept called liebensraum. Imagine what you are asking: Kick out all those I don’t believe are assimilating as fast as I want because I say so. Ever thought that you may be the problem? That you have not even integrated into our society? You might have a job but your heart and ideas are far off the mark.

  55. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    We avoid marginalization by not having those who marginalize themselves. The problem is solved even before it begins.

    Ricky

    When you talk about assimilating into Finnish culture, could you tell us how this is done? Thank you.”

    Tony

    Well, this is done case by case.

    These Brazilians are so badly educated that they cannot spot massive contradictions.

    The only thing they learn at school is how to destroy the environment and dance half naked in the street.

    The Kaiser Chiefs wrote a lyric about you, Tony:

    We are the angry mob
    We read the papers everyday day
    We like who like
    We hate who we hate
    But we’re also easily swayed

  56. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, I strongly believe that assimilation model won’t work by forcing people to go to sauna or asking them to”

    Neither do I, France tried it and failed miserably. It’s up to the immigrant to assimilate not to the state force him to do so.

    “I think this is unworkable and would never even be accepted by sensible conservatives.”

    We have immigration laws in place and officially recognized international border. As I said, you are all for controlled freedom of speech, but immigration laws? no way…

    ” Tony, understand that Europe is already culturally diverse. ”

    Europe may be, but Finland with less than 4% immigrants, and the vast majority of it being Russians or Europeans, I think Finland still have a good opportunity to prevent the problem from even start. But if we are not fast enough, you may be right, it could be too late.

    “But you said it once: We should force those you don’t like to leave.”

    Could you please post the link from where I said that? Thanks.

  57. Tony Garcia

    “That you have not even integrated into our society? You might have a job but your heart and ideas are far off the mark.”

    Enrique, please don’t answer this to us but to yourself. I and how many more? In today’s Finland, who’s ideas are more popular, my or yours?

    I think I have integrated very well, including my heart and ideas. Everyday, more and more Finns are thinking exactly the way I do, if that wasn’t truth, your blog would not exist

  58. Tony Garcia

    “Maybe you should tell President Tarja Halonen that racism is a left-wing “invention:” ”

    I never said its an invention, I always said it’s blown out of proportion by the left and used as political toll.

    “Do you still believe so?”

    Yes, I do…

    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Number+of+hate+crimes+on+the+up+more+than+1000+incidents+were+filed+in+2009/1135261408417

    “Laura Peutere’s study classified as hate crimes all those in which the victim, the police, or some other person involved SUSPECTED that hate was a motivation, or in which there had been verbal attacks against a group that the victim represents.”

  59. xyz

    Tony, in your link it says: For example hateful online comments cannot be construed as a pertinent part of the ongoing immigration or social debate. They represent racism and they meet the criteria of a crime.”

  60. xyz

    I think I have integrated very well, including my heart and ideas. Everyday, more and more Finns are thinking exactly the way I do, if that wasn’t truth, your blog would not exist
    -Integrated in Finland or integrated in Ireland? 🙂 How do you know what all those Finns are thinking? Are you in contact with them over skype or do you give some smoke signs from Ireland? 🙂

    • Enrique

      –I think I have integrated very well, including my heart and ideas. Everyday, more and more Finns are thinking exactly the way I do, if that wasn’t truth, your blog would not exist.

      It’s a good matter that there are differences of opinion. We may not agree but the main thing is that we are debating. I am grateful to all of the opinions that have appeared in this blog because they help us understand and learn. Do you think we could ever meet in person? There could be such an opportunity on March 2, 2011 at Caisa in Helsinki. I will be holding a small ceremony on the opening of a photo exhibition called Faraway hopes, nearby. I will inform you more about this when the date nears.

  61. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    I suggest you set up a public blog, IN YOUR OWN NAME so that you can be readily identified, and assert there that Moslems are rapists. Offer any statistical argument that you like to support that unequivocal conclusion. Then announce the address of the blog in these columns.

    I shall then personally see to it that you are investigated for incitement against a population group. I guarantee that you will also be charged and convicted of that offence. Your statistical arguments will not be an adequate defence.

    Now there is your challenge if you’ve got the guts. Put up or shut up.

  62. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony there seems to be some small confusion when dealing with terms regarding a certain group of people that I’ll try and clear it up for you.

    -‘I thought Islam was a religion’

    Correct.

    -‘Arabic just a race. Isn’t there many Arabic Christians? Or Arabic Atheists?’

    Arabic is the language they use, it’s not a race. Arabs are technically not a race either as can be black from Somalia or Sudan or light brown like Middle-Easterners. Kind of like Brazilians, no particular race. Instead of saying Arabic Christians or Atheists sustitute Arabic with Arab so Arab Christians would be the correct term.

    Use this criteria to define whether a country and it’s nationals are Arabs. If 2 of the 3 apply then they are.

    1. In the Middle East
    2. Speak Arabic as a national language
    3. A huge majority (>95%) are Muslims

    Using this Somalis are Arabs and their country also belongs to the Arab League of Nations.

    In Essence practically all Arabs are Muslims but not all Muslims are Arabs as there are more Muslims in Nigeria and Indonesia combined than the rest of the World.

    Hope this has helped (if you didn’t know already).

  63. xyz

    Use this criteria to define whether a country and it’s nationals are Arabs. If 2 of the 3 apply then they are.
    -What about Iran and Turkey

  64. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘What about Iran and Turkey’

    Both Arab countries. Iran and Turkey are both in the the Middle East and have a huge Muslim majority. Before anyone says Turkey is in Europe technically more of it’s area is in contact with Middle Eastern countries than European countries. The French president amongst others would agree that Turkey is not a European country.

  65. AmiMalachi

    Ah thanks to Jussi Halla-Aho I ended up to reading these conversations and blog articles. Oh my god. I really don’t know how I should take this. First of all few words advices and wishes to you Enrique:
    1) I really don’t know where you are from and what are these “our values” that you carry, but please do not try to seed them in my motherland.
    2)You seem to be very eager to attack agaist those who does not share your values. There is nothing wrong about that, but try at least give some value for that. Do not overlook facts and questions made to shake your statements.
    3) If you wish as it seems to keep this “international” and use English do not mock non-Finnish speakers. When you quote someone give a few minutes time to translate those quotes (or if you can not understand them, ask someone to do it for you).
    4) Walls that you don’t want to be built. I spent just long weekend in Belfast and those walls are good reference. They are not built to separate people and tighten the situation. They are built to separate problems that already exists between those who lives there.
    5) Also as all who want to praise multicutural environments points out we have international agreements about refugees etc. We have also freedom to decide how we fulfill them. Pay attention to Irish immigration laws and aslym policy. Do they have social immigration? Nope.
    6) Before you publish your texts, please read them couple of times. You sound even more joke than what you have to say when you write an argument and few lines later you attack yourself against it.

    • Enrique

      Hi AmiMalachi, I don’t really know who you are because you are anonymous and making these comments in such a way. Moreover, since when did you have the right to dictate what people should say? That is my democratic right. Finland is a free country. Or do you only have these rights and the rest, who disagree with you, do not. To show you that I am a fair person I will allow you to publish your opinions here. I don’t need to comment any further except that they pretty much say where you are coming from.

  66. AmiMalachi

    Then I’d like to give few lines to this sandbox otherwise. Is it really correct way to build up the conversation by making an argument and after that watering those by totally insane nonsense against each other?

    Finland has a immigration problem. There is two ways to “solve” that problem. Either remove all barriers so we can not point anymore as it seems to be current line for goverment and mainstream media. Lets just criminalize all negative conversation about anything no rasism nor anything like that separated. You tell someone on the street that you are conserned about your safety in side parts of city and you will be prosecuted.

    Or then we can openly have a discussion about what is going on without racist-, nazi-, Tru Finn- or any_other_suitable-cards. There is possibility that we can identify and correct those issues and live with controlled immigration.

    Fortunately some European countries have already faced too much multicultural enrichment that we can learn how not to do it. What is unfortunate is that Finland has years followed Swedish political mistakes with attitude “They proved that this will fail, but we will not trust that. We need to try it ourself” This will probably lead no-go areas in Finland as well where even police does not dare to go.

    • Enrique

      You are labelling yourself these things. But I personally think what you are trying to do is tell us that it is normal to loathe and exclude whole groups from our society and say this is “normal.” I don’t know where you grew up or what books you read, but I follow the laws of this land and believe in them. Do you?

      Immigration is a social phenomenon and you cannot bash one group and think that is will not impact the rest. Moreover, I don’t even understand what you mean by multiculturalism. Do you mean a society made up of different cultures or the Canadian social policy? If it is the former there is nothing you can do about it. We are already multicultural. If you are talking about the latter it means at least in Finland that our Constitution and laws permit diversity.

      If you are against this so-called “multiculturalism enrichment” what do you plan to do about it? Kick out those that you consider a threat to our society or ask Finland to leave the EU so people will not be able to move here?

      Please elaborate. Thank you.

  67. AmiMalachi

    I stand behind the idea that every country has a right to choose whose living they will pay. We have agreed to take certain amount of refugees, but we have not agreed to pay their living rest of their lives. FE Ireland has stright regulations about asylumseekers. Here it is fixed length and can be revaluated when time ends if the situation in their homecountries still gives reason for it. This also does not include working permission.

    Asylum should be privilege for those who needs it. If you can not adapt and FE commit crime you state that you are not willing to keep that privilege and it should be given to someone who respects it.

    In my point of view asylum is not new start of life somewhere else. It is asylum for the time until you can go back home.

    We have “free” traveling between EU countries, but as France stated it does not mean that receiving country needs to provide living there. It’s only right that people will be thrown out if they can not provide their own living.

    We have right by any means choose those who can add value for our country or needs place to be until situation home is tolerable. We do not need to give holiday paradise to those social tourists. If that political change would be made, it would make both immigrants and locals stand each other way better. We would not have to raise rasist card daily nor read our own people frustration from daily media.

    Only sustainable way to make immigration politics is to make it fair for people who have born into that country. If natives does not think that their status as citizens is secured it will cause these kind of problems what we are facing nowadays.

    • Enrique

      AmiMalchi, first you question my democratic right to free speech in Finland, you don’t answer my question on what multiculturalism is or what you plan to do with all these people “who you claim are a threat to our society” and now you wander off and talk about refugees and mix immigrants in the picture (!).

      How do you know who needs asylum or not? Do you have the resources and experience to make such a decision? And why don’t you ask the refugees what they think? Instead of acting like some person who knows it all, why don’t you allow people who are affected to air their opinions on what you say? That is democracy and those are our values that parties like the True Finns want to change.

      What is the end-game? After you kick out all those (good luck!) who hate you will find other “enemies.” It never ends and that is why you are walking on very thin ice.

      If you are young, open your eyes to the world. Life is too short to waste your energy on hating other people. You will only be the biggest loser at the end of the day.

  68. xyz

    Another one who thinks that every immigrant is an Asylum Seeker… it’s amazing. On the other hand one of my friends came as a refugee from Iraq and he is working now 🙂

    • Enrique

      Yes, xyz, it does not surprise me. Did I ever tell you that my great grandfather was a refugee from Italy. I am so proud of him that I named one of my children after him.

  69. AmiMalachi

    And for your questions. Yes I try to follow laws on both countries (the one which citizen I am and current country where I live). And no I don’t believe all the laws. Most of those situations when this happens common sense yells to me that this can not be right. There is too many laws in Finland rolled out totally uncompleted and insane (like this latest firearm law).

    I can not understand how even our President fall into these mediasexy terms. She is really worried about increase of hatered crimes. Althou if you search our laws (http://www.finlex.fi) by keyword “viharikos” or “viharik*” it gives you 0 hits. There is no such thing as hatred crime in Finland. How the amount of those can increase? And how our President can be so ignorant that she does not know that but is worried about increase of them?

    I don’t believe the current but I believe that there can be better future for all of us. In some cases it means that certain genes will dissapear from pool. But every team comes to the situation when invidual sacrifices are needed.

    • Enrique

      –She is really worried about increase of hatered crimes.

      You will never understand nor grasp this because you are not at the receiving end. If you want to now what racism is, be a Somali for a day and then we’ll have a chat.

      –I don’t believe the current but I believe that there can be better future for all of us. In some cases it means that certain genes will dissapear from pool. But every team comes to the situation when invidual sacrifices are needed.

      What do you mean?

  70. AmiMalachi

    Enrique:
    Let’s go back to late 90s. Be a moment lonely non-smoking white teenager in middle of 6-10 Somalis who want your non-existent smokes and your money. Then we can have a chat. In my times this was daily situation in my homecity. When there was group of young vandals causing troubles 90% sure they were Somalis.

    When you follow the news about these “Welcome to Finland”-centers and cities/towns they are. Before they come people are afraid. Afterwards they realize that their nightmares became true.

    These are reality from groups of refugees not only couple inviduals. We have also troubles from certain groups of immigrants. Like Romanian beggers. They are not welcome even they have legal right to cross the border. These belongs to the group you are welcome if you can provide your living.

    I do not fight against immigrancy. How can I? I am one. I just speak for selective immigrancy and resonable refugee policy.

    >–I don’t believe the current but I believe that >there can be better future for all of us. In some >cases it means that certain genes will dissapear >from pool. But every team comes to the situation >when invidual sacrifices are needed.
    >
    >What do you mean?

    I mean that we can not stand current situation too long. But hopefully next governmet can push Finland to right direction with this. It might mean that someone who would have real need for help does not get it, but it will change situation to the correct way for the rest.

  71. JusticeDemon

    AmiMalachi

    Do you think your English is good enough to make you employable in an English-speaking country? If so, would a Somali with the same standard of Finnish be similarly employable in Finland? This is a trick question, so be very careful how you answer. I expect you won’t answer anyway 🙂

    You will find the specific offences that you were looking for in sections 3 and 10 of chapter 11 of the Finnish Penal Code. You should also note the general provision in paragraph 4 of subsection 1 of section 5 of chapter 6 of the Finnish Penal Code, and you should then realise that any offence against a person or group can be a hate crime in this very important sense.

    It always amuses me to find Finnish citizens who try to lecture foreigners about Finnish law and civil society, but haven’t got a clue what they are talking about.

    lol@U

    • Enrique

      –It always amuses me to find Finnish citizens who try to lecture foreigners about Finnish law and civil society, but haven’t got a clue what they are talking about.

      And apart from that, they begin the conversation by trying to take your human right to free speech and that they are the guardians of our Western democratic culture! That is why I believe that if these persons got in power they would start to water down civil and human rights in this country. That would be easy to do because, as you mentioned, they don’t know their own laws.

  72. Tony Garcia

    “they begin the conversation by trying to take your human right to free speech”

    Interesting, You claim your right of free speech at the same time that you demand others should have theirs free speech controlled.

    • Enrique

      Am I, Tony? Since when? Oh you mean that Hirvisaari guy. Insulting and inciting racial hatred is not what I would call exercising your right to freedom of speech. There is a big difference.

  73. Tony Garcia

    “There is a big difference.”

    Oh, sorry, the “big difference”, of course… Silly Tony, after following this blog for 2 years should know it already…

    • Enrique

      I have been a journalist for about 25 years, lived under a ruthless dictatorship that censored the media, worked in Colombia where there was a civil war for about 50 years, and you know what freedom of speech is? Certainly you know it from your point of view. If I ever published misinformation or got caught defaming a person, I would be in a court facing slander charges. So, yes, I do have a modest background on the topic. And by the way, I have never ever been accused of slander.

  74. Tony Garcia

    “If I ever published misinformation…”

    humm… Trick one…

    “I would be in a court facing slander charges.”

    That depends, in today’s multicultural world if this person/people are Finns you get a journalism award.

    “And by the way, I have never ever been accused of slander.”

    Of course not, your blog only attach Finns.

  75. Tony Garcia

    If you see every government in LA witch enforced controlled freedom of speech they all did for a “good cause”. All the censorship was done to protect us against ourselves, wasn’t? Just like you said, Europe is not as mature as the US so we shouldn’t have the same right to express our opinions as they do. We need protection against ourselves. Does this look familiar?

    This kind of opinion coming from someone who knows censorship as you do is very scarring to say the least. Or maybe once you only attach Finns you fell pretty comfortable with this kind of control. You know you are able to attach them as much as you want, don’t you?

    Interesting enough neither the LA governments or you wants to address a key issue – how about the truth? Many times the truth is offensive. But even so shouldn’t it be said? And with truth we should say and with one we shouldn’t?

    Somalis fail whatever they go. This statement is offensive, I do admit, but is has been proved beyond the doubt. So, should this truth be suppressed, so Somalis in Finland won’t feel sad about it?

    • Enrique

      –Just like you said, Europe is not as mature as the US so we shouldn’t have the same right to express our opinions as they do.

      There you go again… When did I say that Europeans are not mature enough to have freedom of speech? All I said that there have been too many examples of racial and ethnic strife in this continent. We have to be on the look out for this.

      Why do you think, like DemonJustice pointed out, are there strong laws against inciting ethnic hatred? Is it because the people who made these laws don’t belong to Hommaforum or follow certain far-right politicians in Finland? Think a bit and you will find the answer tucked deep in our history.

  76. JusticeDemon

    There was some considerable debate on the limits of freedom of expression when the incitement amendment was added to the Finnish Penal Code. Similar debates occurred in Germany when they criminalised holocaust denial.

    Complete freedom of expression would imply, for example, that someone could preach that Finns are shy and afraid to express themselves unless they have been drinking alcohol, so it would be a mistake for any international company to appoint a Finn to any position of managerial responsibility.

    Now if the same opinion was expressed about some individual Finn (say, Jorma Ollila), then that person could sue for defamation in a civil court. The defence of freedom of expression would not prevail in such a case, even in countries such the USA where this right is supposedly given considerable weight (although the food disparagement laws applied in 13 states are interesting in this respect).

    Let’s suppose, then, that Tony applies for a managerial job at Nokia Corporation. Complete freedom of speech implies that Helsingin Sanomat can then run a story under the banner headline Tony Garcia hakee paikkaa Nokialta – JusticeDemon korostaa ympäristövastuun merkistystä, reporting remarks in this blog about how Brazilians are environmental vandals. The result – and indeed the intention – is to sabotage Tony’s job application, but nobody is legally liable for the damage thereby sustained, as everybody had the right to free speech.

    At least part of the point is that defaming a population group has consequences for individuals that would entail civil liability if the individual were defamed in person.

  77. Tony Garcia

    Sorry Enrique for the “mature” word, but you got what I was trying to say. However still you spaced from my main point, how about the truth, should it be suppressed in some cases?

    “All I said that there have been too many examples of racial and ethnic strife in this continent.”

    And not in the US?

    “Why do you think are there strong laws against inciting ethnic hatred?”

    Because some things should not be said, and if it’s not said it doesn’t exists.

  78. Tony Garcia

    “True, but never in the magnitude of Europe. ”

    Oh… I thought an entire race has been slaved for centuries in there. I also thought that segregated schools and buses were reality not long ago. Apologies for my bad history.

    BTW, why you again escaped from my question? Should, in some exceptional cases, the truth be suppressed?

  79. Tony Garcia

    “This document as well as others like the Civil Rights Act of 1964 shine on.?”

    Isn’t this document only about 50 years old? How was the life of blacks before that?

    “True, but never in the magnitude of Europe. ”

    Yep, I think you are right…

  80. Tiwaz

    -“I suggest you set up a public blog, IN YOUR OWN NAME so that you can be readily identified, and assert there that Moslems are rapists. Offer any statistical argument that you like to support that unequivocal conclusion. Then announce the address of the blog in these columns.

    I shall then personally see to it that you are investigated for incitement against a population group. I guarantee that you will also be charged and convicted of that offence. Your statistical arguments will not be an adequate defence.

    Now there is your challenge if you’ve got the guts. Put up or shut up.”

    Sources have been provided. I have in the past in THIS VERY BLOG presented statistics which showed that people originating from Middle East, known for Islamic culture, have been DISPROPORTIONATELY present in rape cases.

    These are facts. In Finland, stating a fact has never been a crime. If they are not facts, present real statistical ones and I shall admit being wrong.
    If you do not believe, dig up older Seura-magazine numbers and start suing them. Because they say exactly the same thing couple years ago.

    Nobody has sued them though… It appears that… There is no case! Statistical facts cannot be sued.
    Go study law.

    How about YOU revealing personal information about yourself to the public here. Stop whining about me preferring to defend my privacy until you have presented your own personal information to public.

    So shut the CENSORED or show statistics proving my claims to be false.

  81. Tiwaz

    To give ammo for your court case, story was apparently “Kaikilla kielillä EI” Seura (21/2008) pages 20-23.

    Since you are so confident in your ability to sue, start from there. Makes better publicity.

    Go on, put up or shut up.

  82. Vedos

    Vedos, why then are the few immigrants living here in Finland are the scapegoat? What have they done to derserve the wrath of these individuals? So you are telling me because one group of Finns are “elitists” and another one from “the people” immigrants should now feel the brunt of this age-old conflict.

    What has anyone done to deserve anything? Most of the time, nothing. You’re just born in to something and that’s it. I’m just saying, you should not look past these dudes. I’ve seen them, I’ve grown up with them, I know them. I know my past, I know the men my elders were. Finnish men might seem very conflict avoiding and not very interested in things. They whine to themselves and try not to notice what’s happening. But everytime, it seems, when the situation gets untolerable, they might lash out with very little consideration or empathy and leave the people that come after them wonder “What the hell just happened there? Why?”. Most of the time it happens amongst them, since there’s nobody else.

    It might be changin though. It would be good if it did, but only a very little time has passed and these miniature “rises” happen almost every decade.

    You think they really care about some ideology? It’s just the coating, the easiest route to what they really care about; They care about violence. They care about alcohol, cocaine, amphetamine, seditives, painkillers, steroids, knives, batons, guns and most of all, women who see them as heroes. One day you’re nobody with no father, no future and a deathwish the next you’re a hero. A hard man that can’t be turned or talked down.

    How racist is Finland? I think the jury is still out. Who is to blame for the situation? Look at ourself. Look at our society. Look at our welfare system and our aging population? Look at our values and our inability to deal with Otherness? How can so few immigrants create such a commotion and affect an election? Because in every society you have the opportunists and the greedy that only look after their short-term gain.

    Society is one thing, you forget it doesen’t equal to people. A nation with it’s history and indoctrination. Hell, there might be even natural selection involved.


    Halla-aho and his merry band are an example of part of this society’s inability to deal with globalization, recession and ask serious questions who we are.

    Ability to endure contradiction is a high sign of culture. The way I see it, if it’s fit, it’s good. They’re making a statement, and if it’s a statement that doesen’t fit, it’ll be gone. You are also making a statement, and by all means it’s a fair statement. The sides are clearer than they have been for ages, and one side always loses. Be it Halla-aho’s statement or those the counter him. I think he has the right to ask questions, after all he’s doing it against his own good, which is rare in Finland.

    Their answer is a reaction to immigration. They comprise that part of Finland that grew up with a very limitted idea of its identity (low self-esteem). But I feel that Finns will not fall into that trap. They will find their own solutions and not copy far-right ideas from other countries and apply them here.

    As I see it, it’s not a reaction to immigration. It’s more proactive. It’s a good time to ask questions and raise arguments. Once the time of questions and arguments is over or goes on too long, without anything happening, there might be something much worse. And as I see it, it’s because of a failure to see the big picture. Someone always gets neglected, and when it’s those who have the most capability to violence, -power in numbers if you will – alot of crazy things will happen.

    I don’t think there’s a lack of identity. Alot of Finnish history has been documented and available. It’s just that when you’re raised to be ashamed of it, it would result to low self esteem. That and the fact that low self esteem is considered a part of a Finnish identity. It results to trying always to please the “bigger kids”. Nowadays it’s ok to tell how a Finnish man is the lowest form of life in this planet, there’s no one that will prosecute you if you do. Who would want to be such a thing? You would be an ignorant “juntti”. But if you’re an ignorant “juntti”, why not be proud of it? Be the most ignorant person you possibly can be. You understand what I’m trying to tell you? Anything learned!

    • Enrique

      –But everytime, it seems, when the situation gets untolerable, they might lash out with very little consideration or empathy and leave the people that come after them wonder “What the hell just happened there? Why?”.

      What “situation” is “intolerable?” The recession? “Massive” immigration to Finland? Lash out? That is a pretty violent way of putting it. So you are telling me that since this group “ready to lash out” doesn’t have enough support to win an election, they will revert to undemocratic means to get their point across?

      –They’re making a statement, and if it’s a statement that doesn’t fit, it’ll be gone. You are also making a statement, and by all means it’s a fair statement.

      There are statements and statements. Some are not done by bashing other groups for political gain while others aim to strengthen our values as a society.

      –It’s more proactive. It’s a good time to ask questions and raise arguments.

      Do you believe that there hasn’t been a debate in Finland on immigration? It’s been going on since 1919. It has now taken a further shift to the right. Do you think that this is appropriate:
      “Valitettavasti hillittömän muslimimaahanmuuton myötä Suomessakin tulee olemaan lisääntyvässä määrin myös ihka aitoa rasismia, joka kohdistuu varsinkin juutalaisiin mutta myös kantaväestöön ja muihin etnisiin ryhmiin. Ja kaupan päälle syrjintää, sietämätöntä ylimielisyyttä ja huonoa käytöstä, vihaa, naisten alistamista, lasten silpomista, seksuaalista häiriköintiä ja vähemmistöjen vainoa, mellakointia, lippujen polttelua, älämölöä, huumeita, ryöstelyä, raiskausrikoksia, pedofiliaa, polygamiaa, lapsiavioliittoja, häpeäväkivaltaa, rituaaliteurastuksia, ruoskimisrangaistuksia, kivityksiä ynnä muita läpeensä inhottavia ja umpikieroutuneita tapoja ja ilmiöitä. Lopulta jopa itsemurhapommituksia ja terrorismia. Siis jos emme tanssi tasan tarkkaan heidän pillinsä mukaan.”

      Taking into account the small number of immigrants never mind an even-smaller number of Muslims, what gives? Is the above-mentioned statement by a True Finn candidate conducive to “civil debate?”

      –Nowadays it’s ok to tell how a Finnish man is the lowest form of life in this planet, there’s no one that will prosecute you if you do.

      Who is saying this?

      In my opinion, the anti-immigration sentiment and the rise of the True Finns in the polls is due primarily to the recession and globalization. Even though you raise some good points, you forget that these are the two culprits. Once economic growth kicks in we will be back to near-normal mode. Globalization is here to stay. We better learn to reap advantages of it instead of being its victim. Voting for ultra-right wing parties in Europe and basing your political campaign on xenophobia will not produce long-term benefits.

  83. AmiMalachi

    JusticeDemon:
    First of all, there is no mention of hate crimes. There is althou defined discrimination, crime against humanity etc. Never claimed otherwise, but there is no defenition of hate crime.
    I also would not mock Somali which pays amount of taxes to Finland than I pay here and her/his Finnish would be in same level than my English within a year. Hell no. But that person is fairy tale. Show me one and I give a mirror so you can see liar.
    I think you should get less amused (or use that for something creative to educate yourself) or pay more attention before you attack agains information you receive.

    Enrique:
    Have I declined your freedom of speech? I think not. You seem to use that claim quite a lot against people who disagrees what you say. It’s not only what you say but also how you say it. I asked you to think how you do it. I did not say to you that you’re not allowed to do it.

    • Enrique

      –Have I declined your freedom of speech? I think not. You seem to use that claim quite a lot against people who disagrees what you say

      You made this question to me anonymously: “I really don’t know where you are from and what are these “our values” that you carry, but please do not try to seed them in my motherland.”

      Are you Finnish? You used motherland as opposed to fatherland.

  84. JusticeDemon

    AmiMalachi

    This is just comical. You have decided that the English expression hate crime must be equivalent in the text of a Finnish statute to some expression in Finnish beginning with viha. That is a hopelessly primitive understanding of translation equivalence and legal systematics.

    Similarly, you won’t find the word rattijuoppous used in any Finnish statute, but there is no question that this is a crime in Finland (some would argue that it is pre-eminently so: se ainoa aito suomalainen rikos).

    Two minutes in Wikipedia would have been enough to identify the conduct that falls within the scope of the term hate crime and to see that this conduct is also criminalised in Finland.

    You have learned your English in one year? Presumably, then, you didn’t go to school in Finland in the last 30 years, or watch TV or listen to the radio. In fact the errors that you make in written English strongly suggest that you took short English at a secondary school in Finland and have otherwise picked up a lot of colloquialisms.

    I know two Somalis who learned Finnish well enough to serve as courtroom interpreters and legal translators within two years, despite the fact that they had never been exposed to the Finnish language before they arrived in Finland as adults. Obviously this is exceptional, but my two friends were linguistically gifted and highly motivated.

  85. Tony Garcia

    “Once economic growth kicks in we will be back to near-normal mode. ”

    So you say that as soon as the economy is OK those who don’t want Muslims around will start to welcome them. And you call me naive…

    • Enrique

      What I mean, Tony, is that when economic growth returns it will give rob far-right groups of their thunder. I do not believe that Muslims or any group in Europe are such a threat that we have to take extraordinary steps and put our democracy in cold storage. It’s not naive it is just realistic.

  86. Tony Garcia

    The way I see you give far too much credit to the economic downturn when analyzing the people’s rejection to the growing Islamic presence in Europe. I think the economy does affect the way people see immigration in general but I believe the reason Europe is becoming increasing anti-Muslim is that the more Muslims we have, the easer it becomes to see what they stand for and what they want to achieve, Sharia for example.

    I may be naive as you say, but i believe the rejection to large scale Islamic presence in Europe is here to stay. Please bear in mind that Islamic presence is different than having Muslims. Europe is massively “Christian”, sort to speak, but we see less and less Christianity presence in Europe (law and decision making based on Christianity).

    I think Muslims should realize, as most Christians are doing right now, that religion is a private business and they should keep it as it is.

  87. AmiMalachi

    JusticeDemon:
    I hope this amuses you as much as I enjoy about it. You picked the best example of them all. Sure I must not blame to you that you can not spell it. Try again with “rattijuopumus” ;)This just proves my point, next time someone gives a lecture about Finnish laws do not laugh at them, but learn. Also I do not know any better translation for viharikos than hate crime. Sorry if that is problem for you. I also know that Tarja Halonen did not state how worried she is about hate crimes but viharikoksista.

    Wikipedia must be the only reliable reference what comes to laws. At least if you are foreigner, I’ll bet, it would be best defence. “Oh you did find this from wikipedia. Then we must change our laws. Sorry about this inconvenience.”

    Enrique:
    Yup I’m sorry about that. I guessed right when I realized earlier that you will hang on that sentence. Let me reform it. Do not try to words on our mouths and claime that your values are general Finnish values. And I truly hope that the never fully will be.

  88. JusticeDemon

    AmiMalachi

    Well it was late (about 3 a.m.).

    But you didn’t find rattijuopumus in Finlex either, did you? Can you therefore conclude that there is no such crime in Finland?

    Also I do not know any better translation for viharikos than hate crime. Sorry if that is problem for you. I also know that Tarja Halonen did not state how worried she is about hate crimes but viharikoksista.

    You really should not drink so much that you can’t remember what you have posted here. YOU first raised this question as follows (November 8, 2010 at 10:30 pm):

    I can not understand how even our President fall into these mediasexy terms. She is really worried about increase of hatered crimes. Althou if you search our laws (http://www.finlex.fi) by keyword “viharikos” or “viharik*” it gives you 0 hits. There is no such thing as hatred crime in Finland. How the amount of those can increase? And how our President can be so ignorant that she does not know that but is worried about increase of them?

    This was YOUR PROBLEM, not mine. You criticise Halonen for using a Finnish expression with a meaning that is completely clear, on the grounds that the specific term is not used in Finnish statutes, but now you concede that the concept nevertheless exists in Finnish law and you have no better expression of your own.

    The point about the Wikipedia reference is that it would have at least shown you where to find the answer to your question. Anyway, you haven’t said what, precisely, is incorrect in that reference. Just because I read on a toilet wall that Stuart Baxter is not fit to lace Roy Hodgson’s boots doesn’t make it false.

    Am I right that you began learning English formally at the age of about 12 years, but have been exposed to English through TV, radio etc. continually for most of your life? If so, then we should compare the standard of your English now with the Finnish language competence of a Somali under the same circumstances.

  89. AmiMalachi

    JusticeDemon:
    And it’s my bad that I’m exposed to language and I’m working in country where people natively speaks it? And I should understand that people move to Finland do not speak the language, do not get job and separates native people and still are not motivated to learn the language but demands more from government. Nope I don’t think so.

  90. AmiMalachi

    Hopefully you are as glad than I am that finally some justice happens and James Hirvisaari was freed at court. Some parts of his writings was kept disgusting but still light enought to be accepted from politician.

    • Enrique

      Good for you, Tony. I am happy that it made your day. Do you actually think a person of the caliber of Hrvisaari would be a champion of freedom of speech in Finland? What a joke. No matter how hard he tried he failed miserably.

    • Enrique

      Tony, I have a suggestion, why don’t we change a few words below and made them apply to Finns? That would show great moral caliber and if anybody disagrees with my raging I can then claim freedom of speech. So, no worries. Here is the text:

      “Valitettavasti hillittömän muslimimaahanmuuton myötä Suomessakin tulee olemaan lisääntyvässä määrin myös ihka aitoa rasismia, joka kohdistuu varsinkin juutalaisiin mutta myös kantaväestöön ja muihin etnisiin ryhmiin. Ja kaupan päälle syrjintää, sietämätöntä ylimielisyyttä ja huonoa käytöstä, vihaa, naisten alistamista, lasten silpomista, seksuaalista häiriköintiä ja vähemmistöjen vainoa, mellakointia, lippujen polttelua, älämölöä, huumeita, ryöstelyä, raiskausrikoksia, pedofiliaa, polygamiaa, lapsiavioliittoja, häpeäväkivaltaa, rituaaliteurastuksia, ruoskimisrangaistuksia, kivityksiä ynnä muita läpeensä inhottavia ja umpikieroutuneita tapoja ja ilmiöitä. Lopulta jopa itsemurhapommituksia ja terrorismia. Siis jos emme tanssi tasan tarkkaan heidän pillinsä mukaan.”

      Unfortuantely if the birth rate of the Finns grew we would have more drunkards, wife-beaters, suicides, pedophiles, drug addicts, dysfunctionality, inability to communicate… Sounds nice doesn’t it? The work of a real genius.

  91. JusticeDemon

    AmiMalachi

    I’m not sure why I bother debating with you kun alkoholilla on niin suurta osuutta keskusteluusi, but in a sober moment, you might look back at what you said:

    I also would not mock Somali which pays amount of taxes to Finland than I pay here and her/his Finnish would be in same level than my English within a year. Hell no. But that person is fairy tale. Show me one and I give a mirror so you can see liar.

    You evidently expect a Somali to reach a standard of Finnish corresponding to your standard of English within one year, but that imposes a much higher intellectual standard on the Somali than you have ever shown in your own life. With all the advantages of formal education and continual exposure to English since childhood, you still can’t write the language competently enough for any employer in an English-speaking country to give you any serious responsibility for business correspondence.

    I think I would prefer to compare you with Professor M’hammed Sabour of the University of Joensuu. Where is your PhD? Where are your international publications, and in what languages? If civil war erupted in Finland tomorrow and armed death squads were threatening your children, how employable would you be in a place of refuge like South Korea or Japan after one year of learning the language?

    In truth, you would have to depend on the charity of others for much longer than one year, and your current attitude would not get you very far at all. Learn a bit of humility and don’t be such a Toby, ffs.

    • Enrique

      Well put, JusticeDemon. The problem with a lot of those that have issues with Islam and diversity don’t have the faintest idea what it is nor have they ever met many people (if any) from such groups. They are like the armchair observers telling us how awful is a group even if they don’t have any friends from that group.

  92. Tony Garcia

    “Do you actually think a person of the caliber of Hrvisaari would be a champion of freedom of speech in Finland?”

    Honestly? don’t know, as I told you don’t know him enough to tell, however, so far, you are the only one who public defends that freedom of speech should be controlled. So, to me, the only difference between you and him (if you are right about him) is what should be censored and what shouldn’t.

    “The problem with a lot of those that have issues with Islam and diversity don’t have the faintest idea what it is nor have they ever met many people (if any) from such groups.”

    And you do… living in Finland for 30 years (God knows for how long in Mikkeli) you know exactly what is to live in a place with thousands of Muslims around. Talking about armchair observers…

    “Here is the text: ”

    Yes, you showed this text already… 3 times. Is this the only one you have? I would have thought he had written more about Muslims, but, in any case, if this our only example… As I said before… twice, this list is spot on. Sorry……

    • Enrique

      –So, to me, the only difference between you and him (if you are right about him) is what should be censored and what shouldn’t.

      Censored…hmmm. Do you know what is the best medicine against guys like that? Don’t give them any importance. They are small players, small fries.

      Wow, so now you think that I have only lived in Mikkeli. We live in a globalized world. I have lived in a number of countries during the past thirty years.

      I have Muslim friends, Somali friends and when I read your stuff and those of others it is like reading something from outer space. They don’t match.

  93. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘I think I would prefer to compare you with Professor M’hammed Sabour of the University of Joensuu. Where is your PhD? Where are your international publications, and in what languages?’

    JusticeDemon are you suggesting that if a Somali had the same educational opportunities as your average Finn then they would end up being a Professor or the equivalent?

    -‘The problem with a lot of those that have issues with Islam and diversity don’t have the faintest idea what it is nor have they ever met many people (if any) from such groups.’

    Well Enrique that does not apply to me. Let me ask you this question have you ever lived or even been in a country where Muslims are the majority and society is ruled by Islam? Interacting with the token Muslim in Finland does not count as having a thorough knowledge of what their culture and people represent.

    When dealing with multiculturalists the majority havn’t even got the faintest idea of who they are defending. Refugee and asylum status has widen to the point where anyone from a developing country can be viewed as such because of the misfortune of accident of birth. From today’s news even 24 year old Pakistani international cricket players can claim asylum. What a joke.

  94. Tony Garcia

    “They are small players, small fries. ”

    Maybe yes, maybe no… need to wait and see… just in case…

    “Wow, so now you think that I have only lived in Mikkeli.”

    Where did I say that? I sad 30 years in Finland. Am I wrong? At least you told me so.

    “I have Muslim friends”

    How many? 5, 10, 50, 100? How does this compare to the thousands from Malmo, Paris or London? How does this compare to the 4+ millions from Germany witch, according to the German government, are not integrating?

    Because you know a few of them you know what millions living in Europe are doing, what they think and most importantly what they want Europe to become. Fascinating…

    ” I read your stuff and those of others it is like reading something from outer space.”

    When you are right, you are, and no one can deny it. FGM, honor killing, sexual jihad, forced marriage, anti-Semitism, terrorism, bigamy, rioting, gender discrimination, Sharia, etc, it’s just not happening, it’s all from our imagination… or shall I say… all from outer space… At least you didn’t say it’s all Bush’s fault this time…

    • Enrique

      –Because you know a few of them you know what millions living in Europe are doing, what they think and most importantly what they want Europe to become. Fascinating…

      So I have to know a million to know them? I have very good Muslim friends. The difference is that you are looking at religion while I look at the person’s character. Those are two different things. The former obfuscates your view of things. It is like trying to figure out what nationality to bring to a country. Just bring those with skills. You have a very ethnocentric view of things.

    • Enrique

      –How many? 5, 10, 50, 100? How does this compare to the thousands from Malmo, Paris or London? How does this compare to the 4+ millions from Germany witch, according to the German government, are not integrating?

      How many you? How many in Ireland?

      What do you think about the neocons. They are history today but their legacy lives on.

  95. Tony Garcia

    “From today’s news even 24 year old Pakistani international cricket players can claim asylum. What a joke.”

    This is called the yooman rites culture…

  96. AmiMalachi

    Enrique:
    Ah I just can not leave really old _joke_ untold after that what you just wrote:
    Do you know what are the differencies between Somali and E.T.?
    E.T. looks cute and want to get home. 😉
    JusticeDemon:
    Hah, well don’t worry I don’t know why I continue this either … maeby it’s just nice to be troll. But well it seems like our managers are totally idiots (or there is something to do with the fact that we have 28 nationalities and 24 different natively spoken languages represented, sites within 25km radius, in our company). So far only group I had communications probles have been Indians, but they have problems with every one. I was rolling on floor laughing when one our customer asked my British colleague if he could have someone on the phone who can speak English 😉 And yes if really most of the immigrants are going to Finland for work or families as Enrique stated in his published newspaper colum, what/who declines them to learn basics before? At least that’s nothing less than we get English in school, basics.

  97. Klay_Immigrant

    Let me tell a true story from my life. In Saudi Arabia on most Fridays after the evening prayer in the main central square in Riyadh (the capital) public beheadings were shown.

    When I was 12 years I went to one of those as you do when at that age due to curiousity and not caring about the consequences. At the time I knew Arabic quite well and still can read it now.

    Anyway I was talking to one of my friends in English and someone heard us and alerted the local Imman of our presence. Shortly after someone came to us and forciby ushered us to the front of the crowd to get prime time front row view of their beheading entertainment. After the executions were done that same person came up to us and in English said to us ‘this is what happens to infedils’.

    A large percentage of Muslims that the people on this blog defend against would have no hestitation to introduce this practice to Europe if possible.

    • Enrique

      –After the executions were done that same person came up to us and in English said to us ‘this is what happens to infedils’.

      So after that you decided that ALL Muslims are bad? The easiest thing would be to bring out the most terrible parts of any culture and state: see, they are subhuman. But that is not how sensible humans relate to the world. Can you imagine if you we did in such a way? And hey, you are constantly talking about Saudi Arabia as the example. Another bad choice of an example. It is as if I would go to a small far-flung village in Germany and say that this exemplifies all Germans. Did you say you are doing your doctoral dissertation?

    • Enrique

      –A large percentage of Muslims that the people on this blog defend against would have no hestitation to introduce this practice to Europe if possible.

      Yes, and a bunch of extreme right-wingers would not think twice about putting our civil rights in cold storage.

  98. JusticeDemon

    AmiMalachi

    Your last pitch began with a racist joke and then became quite unintelligible. I suggest you sober up before you write and stop being such a Toby.

    Write in Finnish if you must.

  99. Tony Garcia

    “The difference is that you are looking at religion while I look at the person’s character.”

    So you say that religion doesn’t forge peoples character? Unbelievable what you have to do to excuse these people.

    “So I have to know a million to know them?”

    Of course not, but Europeans governments do know millions of them, so I would rather give their opinion more credit. Sorry about that…

    “See how easy it is. No brains, only accusations.”

    But you do want to control the freedom of speech of those right-wingers. So Muslims bringing Sharia – OK, right-wingers saying no to it – NO.

    “How many you?”

    A few, all very disappointing experiences. I’m , just like you are, an armchair observer, the difference is that I read real world news.

    • Enrique

      “Tony,” to be frank, your arguments are on very thin ice. But maybe you and Klay live in a world where your own myths about other groups are believed. I even heard that Klay is doing his doctoral dissertation. He is a sharp one and highly critical. What did you say in which “university” he is doing his doctoral thesis. Do they also study Piltdown man there?

  100. Tony Garcia

    “And hey, you are constantly talking about Saudi Arabia as the example. Another bad choice of an example.”

    Would you mind to gives us a good example, please?

  101. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘And hey, you are constantly talking about Saudi Arabia as the example. Another bad choice of an example. It is as if I would go to a small far-flung village in Germany and say that this exemplifies all Germans.’

    Stupid me, what was I thinking it’s not like Saudi Arabia is one of the largest Arab countries in area, has a population of 27 million, is the birth place of Islam and the duty of every Muslim in this World if economically possible has to visit two of it’s cities. Your right Enrique it’s no more important than some small far-flung village in Germany as you so bluntly put it.

  102. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony can I ask in an ideal situation would you want the True Finns party to only control immigration in the govenment like in Denmark with the Danish People’s Party or would you also like them to control other policies such as the economy and education?

  103. Klay_Immigrant

    I guess Enrique that the small far-flung village in Germany as too in Saudi Arabia also has on average 11.5 million visitors every year purely based on religious grounds.

  104. Tony Garcia

    don’t worry Klay, I’m sure Enrique will gives us a good example of Muslim country. A place with we can look at and see the “real” face of Islam, not the outer of space stuff we say here…

  105. Tony Garcia

    Klay, I have no idea witch policies True Finns has. I’m a conservative and have always supported Kokoomus, witch is as conservative as you can get in a mostly liberal country like Finland.

    For me the True Finns election is nothing but a wake up call to the main parties. Finland needs wise immigration policy. A policy that will bring adaptable and ready to assimilate immigrants to help its extremely expensive welfare state. We need people who can contribute, not who take from it. furthermore, we need people who will bring social cohesion, not marginalize themselves.

    “But then again you can’t even shake hands with Muslim women so even that crosses their boundaries.”

    Good point, so much for the “hold hands and sing Kumbaya day”…

  106. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘the “real” face of Islam, not the outer of space stuff we say here…’

    Yes Tony we as well as others like James Hirvisaari and Jussi Halla-aho are great at making fairy tale claims about Islam aren’t we. Our imagination are on another level. I might go to Hollywood and try my luck writing a movie with this god given talent for imagination and fiction.

    • Enrique

      Klay, I asked you if you are doing your doctoral dissertation. Is that so?

  107. xyz

    I guess Enrique that the small far-flung village in Germany as too in Saudi Arabia also has on average 11.5 million visitors every year purely based on religious grounds.
    -I suppose every religion has such an event? E.g. Urbi et Orbi. How many people are watching this on TV?

  108. xyz

    A policy that will bring adaptable and ready to assimilate immigrants to help its extremely expensive welfare state. We need people who can contribute, not who take from it.
    -How are your Finnish skills? 🙂

    • Enrique

      –How are your Finnish skills?

      XYZ I think both “Tony” and “Klay” are pretty maladapted to our society. This means that they will take a very, very long time to learn basic Finnish.

  109. Tony Garcia

    “How many Muslims do you know?”

    At the moment non. How many I did? From the top of my head, about 10, all very unpleasant experiences.

    “By the way, how many live in Ireland?”

    No idea. Don’t care, Our stay here is already on overtime.

    “Tony,” to be frank, your arguments are on very thin ice.”

    Very well then, give us solid arguments, give us one Muslim country to look at. One place that can clearly show to us what Islam is.

    “XYZ I think both “Tony” and “Klay” are pretty maladapted to our society”.

    Oh dear, you uncover our secret…

  110. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, we are still waiting your hard solid argument. If Saudi Arabia is a bad example of a Muslim country, please tell us to witch Muslim country we should be looking at. If we don’t know what Islam is all about, please give us one example so we can understand it.

    • Enrique

      I really don’t like these types of questions because they are chrarged with your stereotypic view of the world. You are always looking at justification to validate your hatred. I am not into that type of classificatory system. It would be like asking you tell me of a catholic country that we should look up to. Is Brazil one of them?

  111. Tony Garcia

    You don’t like it, I see… Oh well… You were very specific, the far right is the problem not Muslims. You also say that if the far right takes control our democracy will go bananas, very well then, now show us a Muslim majority country with is prosper, free and democratic. If you can’t them both, the far right and Muslims, are the problem.

    Yes Brazil is a good example of a failure, but I can give you other examples, how about Ireland, Italy and Spain? Show to us a Muslim country witch can be compared with those 3 countries.

    How about Protestant? Is there any Muslim majority country with can be compared with a protestant majority country?

    I think it’s quite clear why you don’t like this kind of question, because the far right is not the only problem we have…

  112. Tony Garcia

    “I am not into that type of classificatory system.”

    Yes you are, you classified a whole group, the far right, as the problem, and excused another, Muslims. The problem is that when we confront your classification we can see that is not based on reality but on what you wanted the reality to be.

  113. xyz

    Yes Brazil is a good example of a failure, but I can give you other examples, how about Ireland, Italy and Spain?
    -Why did you go to Ireland then?

  114. Tony Garcia

    Muslims are not the problem if we cave in and let they take over, otherwise we batter be ready…

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/ian-odoherty-comedian-or-cynic-why-ive-fallen-out-of-love-with-sarah-silverman-2417311.html

    “She writes: “Why didn’t I choose to depict Mohammed having sex? The answer is simple. I don’t want to get blown up by explosives. I am afraid of angering Muslims; but not afraid of angering Jews and Christians, so I chose to depict the Judeo-Christian God. It seems extremely obvious to me, but so many people asked . . .”

    “Here we have a comic who has made a very good living out of completely ripping the piss out of the religious and cultural mores of Christians and Jews, blithely ignoring their protests and, in fact, turning those protests into even more material — and then she admits that she only picks on those targets because she knows they won’t kill her.”

    “Because there is nothing more cynical than picking on the small kid who you know won’t hit you back and then toadying up to the school bully so you yourself won’t get a smack.”
    “It also plays straight into the hands of Christians in America who have long claimed that they’re unfairly singled out for attack by satirists and comedians because they know that they can while these same anti-religious comics are cowed by the oh-so-predictable Muslim threats of violence.”

  115. Tiwaz

    So, Demon. Coward who does not dare to write her racist texts with her own name.

    How many legal cases you have started this week? Or do you think your pathetic bullshit scares someone.
    I have not seen you get Seura charged for anything.

    “I guarantee”. I would be surprised if you had even seen lawyer, even less that you could guarantee anything.

    So shut the fuck up and stop trying to prevent people from telling the truth:
    Immigrants ARE disproportionately represented in rapist statistics.
    And out of immigrants, ones from Islamic world are disproportionately represented.

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