Red Herring tales (Part 2): City of Vaasa bans burquinis

by , under Enrique

As expected, the Vaasa city leisure committee voted unanimously on Wednesday to prohibit the use of burquinis. The committee claims that the swimming outfit, consisting of a head scarf, tunic and trousers designed for Muslim women, is a dangerous to the swimmer and unhygienic.

Kuvankaappaus 2013-2-3 kello 12.14.52
It’s unclear from the rules if Muslims are required to go to the sauna naked.

 

While the city may have a point, the prohibition goes much deeper: it’s another example of our hardened stance against Muslims and cultural diversity in general. It is a sure recipe for failure in integrating all parts of our ever-growing culturally diverse society. The following message rings out loud and clear:  This is Finland and this is how we do things. Go back to where you came from if you don’t like it.

220px-svvalues_narrowweb_300x3080
 The cartoon depicts perfectly when the city of Vaasa prohibited the use of burquinis at their public pools.

Migrant Tales spoke last week to the City of Vaasa official who made the proposal to the leisure committee. I wasn’t impressed by the reasons for prohibiting the burquini, which revealed a red herring: We are not willing to compromise and work with you on this matter.

The quotes by the city official that reinforces the above were: “We have for as long as I can remember men from wearing shorts [at pools]. There are no exceptions,” and “99.9% of the swimmers are for the ban.”

The percentage figure, 99.9%, reveals that only a handful use burquinis.

If it is a single-digit figure couldn’t it have been resolved in a different way?

It is incredible as well that while some officials speak of getting immigrant women out of the home and integrate them into our society, the burquini ban does the opposite and will encourage them to stay home.

Another matter that raises serious questions is the Suomen Uimaopetus- ja Hengenpelastusliitto (SUH), the Finnish swimming instruction and lifesaver’s association, which is planning to recommend prohibiting this spring the burquini throughout Finland. 

Who is the SUH? Is it one association or many different that should look into the matter and recommend policy?

The SUH official told Migrant Tales that he had got in touch with Suomen Somaliliitto, the Somali association,  and a Somali Helsinki city councillor. None of them had responded back about the burquini, according to the SUH official.

How should this affair been handled?

Why didn’t the City of Vaasa get in touch with the local imam(s) and spoke to them about this problem to find a solution? This would have been a more effective and sensible way to find a compromise.

In sum, the burquini prohibition in Vaasa reveals one of the biggest challenges and issues facing Finland as it becomes ever-culturally diverse: Taking into account other cultures and empowering them through the decision-making process.

 

 

 

    • Enrique Tessieri

      –Can you explain the long-standing and familiar ban on shorts in swimming baths?

      I suspect it has to do with hygiene. That’s probably the response you’ll get from the authorities.

    • JusticeDemon

      Ricky

      There are two common explanations, neither of which are especially convincing as normally expressed:

      1) Loosely fitting garments can become trapped in the pool filtration system causing a danger of drowning.

      2) Loosely fitting garments enable swimmers to urinate in the pool without fear of detection, which is discouraged on grounds of hygiene.

      I suspect that point 1 is out of date nowadays with modern outlet systems used in pool filtration. Point 2 seems to be more a matter of aesthetics than hygiene in the technical sense, as normal urine is virtually sterile and certainly contains fewer pathogens than mucus from the airways. In any case it stretches credibility to suppose that any form of clothing really discourages urination in the practical conditions of a public swimming baths.

      The issue of whether any item of swimwear is safe for swimming is a point of product safety. Unlike shorts, these garments are specifically designed as swimwear, but I have not heard that their sale is banned on safety grounds anywhere in the EU.

  1. Farang

    It’s unclear from the rules if Muslims are required to go to the sauna naked.

    Actually it is very clear if you understand Finnish:

    Everyone are required to go to the sauna naked, except the ones who have permit tag on their swimming suite (eg. breast cancer patients).

    • Enrique Tessieri

      –Everyone are required to go to the sauna naked, except the ones who have permit tag on their swimming suite (eg. breast cancer patients).

      So no towel, right? That’s a problem for some people. Different people and cultures relate differently to nudity.

  2. Farang

    So no towel, right? That’s a problem for some people. Different people and cultures relate differently to nudity.

    You are right, there are no mention about towel, only swimming suits. I don’t see why towel would be a problem, but then someone might suspect that someone could be hiding a swimming suit under the towel.

    They really should clear that up in those rules.

    • Enrique Tessieri

      –You are right, there are no mention about towel, only swimming suits.

      That’s a way it could be solved.

  3. Farang

    But why can’t you see that this is an excellent opportunity for muslims to show that they want to integrate in Finland. They could put aside their own incompatible habits and start going to swimming hall like Finns are going.

    If they can’t adapt to that, how can they ever expect that Finns would accept them?

    • Enrique Tessieri

      –If they can’t adapt to that, how can they ever expect that Finns would accept them?

      Sorry Farang but things don’t work this way. It’s all about accepting our differences. Certainly compromise is important in such cases.

    • Mark

      Why do some Finns demand that those of foreign origin will only be accepted if they behave dishonestly by trying to be ‘just like Finns’? You call it ‘adaptation’, but it sounds an awful lot like blackmail aimed at stripping people of foreign origin of their cultural heritage and right of free expression.

  4. Joonas

    –Everyone are required to go to the sauna naked, except the ones who have permit tag on their swimming suite (eg. breast cancer patients).

    So no towel, right? That’s a problem for some people. Different people and cultures relate differently to nudity.

    I believe tower are accepted, because they usually don’t contain high amount of chlorine.

    • Enrique Tessieri

      -I believe towels are accepted, because they usually don’t contain high amount of chlorine.

      I agree. This permits the person to cover himself or herself while in sauna.

  5. Farang

    You call it ‘adaptation’, but it sounds an awful lot like blackmail aimed at stripping people of foreign origin of their cultural heritage and right of free expression.

    They should, otherwise it would be changing our culture. If they can’t accept our culture and live like we do, then they should find some other country to live in. They can’t come here and start telling us what to do, in our own country.

    • Enrique Tessieri

      –They should, otherwise it would be changing our culture.

      Culture changes constantly. As our culture changes so does theirs.

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      They should, otherwise it would be changing our culture. If they can’t accept our culture and live like we do, then they should find some other country to live in. They can’t come here and start telling us what to do, in our own country.

      Well boo hoo. Take a look around yourself and learn some basic history. Virtually everything in the modern Finnish lifestyle has come from abroad. Even your Master’s fascism is a foreign invention, Farang. Your lack of awareness of the origins of your behaviour and thinking does not change this fact. It merely means that you surrender your intellectual autonomy as well.

      How dare these outsiders criticise the alcohol-fuelled, dissolute, angst-ridden lifestyle of our children hanging around in shopping centres because they are alienated within their own families? Where do they get off criticising our god-given right to a high suicide rate and record number of single-parent households? Why can’t they understand that the only route to true happiness is through relentless, blind consumerism, and that the value of a person’s character is defined by what they own and not by what they have done?

      Yet the funny thing is that all of these characteristics of the ordinary Finn (not you, of course, Farang – we know that you are perfect in all respects and in no way influenced by anything but pure reason) were themselves originally imported from abroad. Finnish religion was imported from abroad and Finnish atheism is likewise imported from abroad. The categories of Finnish public administration were invented in Russia and tempered by a legal system formulated in Sweden. The Finns did not invent industrialisation or high rise buildings, and yet…

      Were all of these foreign ideas big bullies that forced the gentle forest people to abandon their simple free lifestyle? No. They were simply absorbed by ordinary unreflective individuals making what they felt to be sensible choices at the time (such as the choice to live rather than die). This is how culture propagates, and even your reaction against it is merely another strand of cultural evolution.

    • Mark

      Farang

      They should, otherwise it would be changing our culture.

      Your ‘culture’ changed the minute a foreign ‘anything’ finds its way to Finland. Fact is, these foreigners will have children, many with native Finns, and these children by definition bridge two cultures, and so what they absorb and what they give back to Finland’s own culture has already changed. Every generation changes. Today’s young Finns have a perceptively different culture to that of their grandparents, largely down to globalisation. Now unless you are asking to turn the clock back and somehow ‘freeze’ Finnish culture, then you might as well shut up.

      I’ve said this before, but it’s worth repeating – what foreigners bring to Finland by and large only adds to the ‘culture’ that is on offer, like another dish put on the table. It doesn’t stop you practiciing or performing your own sense of culture in any way.

      If they can’t accept our culture and live like we do, then they should find some other country to live in.

      Which just makes you sound like the bigoted, arrogant and self-entitled little twat that you are. Are you going to ban foreign newspapers off the newstand in Helsinki Central Station because you cannot stand to see any evidence of foreign culture? Just how far are you going to take this political psychoticism and insecurity?

      They can’t come here and start telling us what to do, in our own country.

      Because why? You will have a little hissy fit and start foaming at the mouth? Or worse still, orgnanising jack-boot style ‘resistance’ movements to bully the ugly foreigner into submission? You sound like a little boy that both wants to keep his toys to himself and yet demands that the only toys that other boys and girls play with are the same as his!

      Does that also mean I cannot tell you to piss off with your ‘Finnish’ advice for foreigners?

  6. Farang

    Culture changes constantly. As our culture changes so does theirs.

    But why would we need to change our culture BECAUSE of them?

    • Mark

      Farang

      But why would we need to change our cOtherwise, I (and my Finnish wife) would say piss off with your narrow notions of what is allowed ulture BECAUSE of them?

      The day you personally are being FORCED to change anything about YOUR culture, I’d be interested to hear your gripes. ‘our’ culture.

  7. Farang

    JD

    Well boo hoo. Take a look around yourself and learn some basic history. Virtually everything in the modern Finnish lifestyle has come from abroad.

    You don’t seem to understand the difference here.

    It’s totally different to adapt some foreign customs, which we see useful or good. But now the situation is totally different, the immigrant wants to dictate us what customs we need to adapt. Can’t you really see the difference?

    • Mark

      Farang

      It’s totally different to adapt some foreign customs, which we see useful or good. But now the situation is totally different, the immigrant wants to dictate us what customs we need to adapt. Can’t you really see the difference?

      What’s obvious is that you interpret ‘culture’ only in the narrowest sense of being an issue of power and control, and even then you bring a distorted interpretation of it.

      First, immigrants cannot dictate. There are no grounds for a dictate in anything in Finland. Everything is covered by legislation, legal and administrative processes and general and widespread discussion, with civil society, local and national authorities. This is how it’s done in Finland, and immigrants do not arrive with special powers to bypass that normal way of doing things.

      Second, immigrants are generally not asking Finns to change their customs, but to allow more flexibility so that they can practice theirs. There is a big difference here that you seem too stupid to understand.

      Third, it is the free and democratic right of all citizens in Finland to lobby and advocate on behalf of special interests and causes. Saying that immigrants or descendents of immigrants would be prohibited from having any influence on decision-making at all levels in Finland is obvious xenophobia and has no place in modern Finland.

      Fourth, your attitude denies immigrants the normal dignity and respect that ALL human beings deserve and are entitled to in Finland. Being told you cannot express your culture, that you cannot change ANYTHING or exercise any kind of political agency is tantamount to being treated as a object or a domesticated animal.

      The ‘difference’ as you so willfully point out is the difference between a policy of respect and dialogue and a policy of building second-class citizenship on the back of bigotry to support a neurotic and insular world-view that has no understand of true culture, whether Finnish or otherwise.

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      It’s totally different to adapt some foreign customs, which we see useful or good.

      I wonder whether this moral standard is consistent with your previous division of people into absolutely good and irredeemably bad individuals, but we’ll let that pass.

      Cultural influence is imparted through an aggregation of individual choices according to the opportunities that become available and to human autonomy. The choices are autonomous but the aggregation is nobody’s individual choice. At what point did the people of Finland determine that social alienation and anomie were useful and good? When did the people of Finland volunteer for rapid urbanisation and post-industrial decline?

      Immigrants are part of cultural evolution. Indeed they are a key component in cultural progress. There are no cultural choices when your neighbour is exactly the same as you, Farang. Instead all you can look forward to is cultural stagnation.

  8. Farang

    Third, it is the free and democratic right of all citizens in Finland to lobby and advocate on behalf of special interests and causes.

    Mark

    First, immigrants cannot dictate. There are no grounds for a dictate in anything in Finland. Everything is covered by legislation, legal and administrative processes and general and widespread discussion, with civil society, local and national authorities. This is how it’s done in Finland, and immigrants do not arrive with special powers to bypass that normal way of doing things.

    You know what I mean by dictating. I mean exactly what you are doing now, you are trying to tell Finns what they should do.

    Even if the demands by immigrants wouldn’t be accepted there is still one fatal consequence. When Finns notice that immigrants are trying to give demands it affects negatively to the way Finns are seeing immigrants. And that is one big factor to increase racism in Finland.

    Second, immigrants are generally not asking Finns to change their customs, but to allow more flexibility so that they can practice theirs. There is a big difference here that you seem too stupid to understand.

    Depends on the situation. For example this burquini issue, if immigrants would be given the permission, it would change the whole culture in the swimming halls.

    Do you also consider that if immigrant comes from a culture where circumcising girls is normal, they should be allowed the flexibility to do so also here in Finland, because “it would not ask Finns to change their habits”?

    Yes, but then they shouldn’t be wondering why they are receiving hostility from Finns.

    Fourth, your attitude denies immigrants the normal dignity and respect that ALL human beings deserve and are entitled to in Finland. Being told you cannot express your culture, that you cannot change ANYTHING or exercise any kind of political agency is tantamount to being treated as a object or a domesticated animal.

    No, I’m only denying them things that don’t belong in Finland. It is immigrants’ responsibility to adapt to the country where he/she is moving into. If they can’t do that, then they should move somewhere else.

    • Mark

      Farang

      First you say this:

      You know what I mean by dictating. I mean exactly what you are doing now, you are trying to tell Finns what they should do.

      And then this:

      No, I’m only denying them things that don’t belong in Finland.

      So basically, you mean that people of a foreign origin cannot express their views in Finland or call for any kinds of changes to anything.

      Meanwhile it’s the little fascist called Farang, the man who on this site has defended torture and who also described the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as, quote, “bullshit”, who gets to decide what belongs and what doesn’t.

      When Finns notice that immigrants are trying to give demands it affects negatively to the way Finns are seeing immigrants. And that is one big factor to increase racism in Finland.

      Only a very limited number of Finns think that a foreigner cannot express an opinion about how services are organised or influence decision-making. However, when you put it in extremely childish terms like ‘do you want foreigners telling Finns what to do’, then I’m not surprised you get an ignorant response, because it’s an ignorant question posed by an ignoramus, who happens to be Finnish.

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      When Finns notice that immigrants are trying to give demands it affects negatively to the way Finns are seeing immigrants. And that is one big factor to increase racism in Finland.

      You mean that this is one way to expose racism, Farang.

      It certainly exposes yours.

      if immigrants would be given the permission, it would change the whole culture in the swimming halls.

      Do you really pay so much attention to how women dress in a public swimming baths, Farang? What kind of pervert are you?

    • Mark

      Farang

      It is immigrants’ responsibility to adapt to the country where he/she is moving into.

      Because Finns cannot adapt to anything, ever? From what I know, Finns are actually quite good at adapting to things. Take the ageing population, older workers and employers are both working to adapt to circumstances so as to allow the older worker to continue in the workforce. Based on your childish notions of Finns being unable to adapt to anything, this kind of thing shouldn’t exist in Finland. Much like the Finnish employer you recently talked about who was not capable of adapting dress codes in any circumstances to take account of changing demographics amid the workforce.

      It’s a good job you are not the spokeperson for Finnish industry trying to encourage investment in Finland, because chances are you would create an awful picture of Finnish capabilities and culture.

  9. Farang

    Mark

    Because Finns cannot adapt to anything, ever?

    Based on your childish notions of Finns being unable to adapt to anything

    So, you want to use that kind of discussion style again? Making things up?

    I never said Finns are unable to adapt. I said Finns should not have to adapt to something they don’t want.

    Your logic is easily proven as epic fail:

    Let’s say you have pain in your back which makes walking painful. Which one would you consider more sensible solution:
    a) adapt to it and learn to live with the pain
    b) heal the back and get rid of the pain?

    Answer by your logic is a, to adapt just because you can.

    • Mark

      Farang

      So, you want to use that kind of discussion style again? Making things up?

      Made up? This was a logical conclusion drawn from two of your comments, which were nothing if not clear on the matter that any kind of attempt by a foreigner to have an influence in Finland is ‘not allowed’, and that if foreigners don’t like it, they should not come here.

      Either you don’t mean what you say or you don’t say what you mean.

      I said Finns should not have to adapt to something they don’t want.

      And what kind of arrogant prick thinks they can speak for all Finns? Oh, wait a minute….

      Just for the record, there are as many arguments in Finland about what is good or appropriate public policy as in any healthy democracy – for any decision that is taken, there is always a significant portion of society that will disagree with the reasons or the priorities chosen. If they agree about the priority, they disagree about the methods to realise it. Your notion of a Finland that has one opinion about everything is laughable and ridiculous, and this is the basis for telling foreigners that they cannot influence decision-making in Finland!

      Answer by your logic is a, to adapt just because you can.

      I am not arguing for one response to every single argument put forward by a foreigner. And I’m certainly not arguing that foreigners should only be allowed to propose things that I personally agree with, which is your ridiculously naive position. You even go so far as to assume that because you are against something, the rest of Finland must be against it too and that Finland always speaks with one voice when it comes to issues involving foreigners.

      What the heck does walking with a painful back have to do with immigrants being able to exercise normal democratic rights? Your innanity is nothing if not creative!

  10. Farang

    JD

    Do you really pay so much attention to how women dress in a public swimming baths, Farang? What kind of pervert are you?

    I don’t know where you come from, but here in Finland it is considered healthy if a straight man enjoys a nice female figure in swimming suit.

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      I don’t know where you come from, but here in Finland it is considered healthy if a straight man enjoys a nice female figure in swimming suit.

      Except that in your case, Farang, this converts into vain political posturing. And now we know that the real reason for your objection to certain forms of swimsuit has nothing to do with any alleged attack on your “culture”, but is merely an expression of your sexual frustration and of your general attitude towards women that Mark has already discussed here recently.

  11. Farang

    Mark

    Meanwhile it’s the little fascist called Farang, the man who on this site has defended torture and who also described the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as, quote, “bullshit”, who gets to decide what belongs and what doesn’t.

    You think too highly of me 🙂 I am not in a position to decide anything in Finland. But thanks for considering it 😉

    It’s interesting how you are so eagerly defending immigrants right to voice their opinions and demands, but you don’t like it at all if racists are doing the same. Talking about double standards, Mark 🙂

    • Mark

      Farang

      You think too highly of me I am not in a position to decide anything in Finland. But thanks for considering it

      That was sarcasm, but I guess you knew that.

      It’s interesting how you are so eagerly defending immigrants right to voice their opinions and demands, but you don’t like it at all if racists are doing the same. Talking about double standards, Mark

      Let’s get this straight Farang, you are allowed here in a public forum to express your vile and fascist ideology and NEVER do we say that you do not have the right to express your opinions. You cannot pull that one here, as it would blatantly be a lie.

      But let’s get this straight, because you have just incorrectly accused us of something that YOU ARE VERY CLEARLY DOING. Let’s look at what you said near the top of the page:

      If they can’t accept our culture and live like we do, then they should find some other country to live in. They can’t come here and start telling us what to do, in our own country.

      See. Who is telling who what they can and cannot do in Finland?

  12. Farang

    Except that in your case, Farang, this converts into vain political posturing. And now we know that the real reason for your objection to certain forms of swimsuit has nothing to do with any alleged attack on your “culture”, but is merely an expression of your sexual frustration and of your general attitude towards women that Mark has already discussed here recently.

    Well, to be honest, there are lot of women in the swimming halls that would look better if covered with burkha.

  13. Farang

    What the heck does walking with a painful back have to do with immigrants being able to exercise normal democratic rights? Your innanity is nothing if not creative!

    That was not the comparison. The democratic right is to allow them to voice their demands, but the action based on that (either allowing or not) is comparable to the action done with the painful back.

    • Mark

      Farang

      The democratic right is to allow them to voice their demands, but the action based on that (either allowing or not) is comparable to the action done with the painful back.

      And the painful back comes from what? Insane gibberish, you speak!

  14. Farang

    See. Who is telling who what they can and cannot do in Finland?

    I am telling what in my opinion immigrants can and can’t do. I am not in a position to make any decisions, therefore whatever I say, is just my opinion how things should go.

    Anyway, if my opinions would be asked from Finns on the street, fair assumption is that atleast 75% of Finns agree with me. And the rest 25% are just people who are unable to think straight.

    • Mark

      Farang

      I am telling what in my opinion immigrants can and can’t do. I am not in a position to make any decisions, therefore whatever I say, is just my opinion how things should go

      No, you were telling us what foreigners should do and should not do – they should not come to Finland if they want to exercise democratic rights. I have not told anyone to do anything. I have simply disagreed with your ridiculous notion that somehow you are making a coherent argument. It’s self-deluded gobbledeegook that shows a distinct lack of understand of how Finnish society actually works and the principles upon which it is founded. In other words, it’s just plain old ignorance trying to dress itself up as something more.

      Anyway, if my opinions would be asked from Finns on the street, fair assumption is that atleast 75% of Finns agree with me. And the rest 25% are just people who are unable to think straight.

      Is that supposed to be scientific?

    • Mark

      I understand a qualification, but you haven’t offered any. You say educated, but you haven’t said in what way? By life’s happy highway, or by hard graft in an institution? I think you are gassing through your great big behind!

  15. Farang

    Mark

    Let’s get this straight Farang, you are allowed here in a public forum to express your vile and fascist ideology and NEVER do we say that you do not have the right to express your opinions. You cannot pull that one here, as it would blatantly be a lie.

    I’m not talking about me. I’m talking about the usual discussion here in migrant tales, for example condemning the space in magazines and newspapers given for Halla-aho and other PS members.

    • Mark

      Farang

      I’m not talking about me. I’m talking about the usual discussion here in migrant tales, for example condemning the space in magazines and newspapers given for Halla-aho and other PS members.

      I was talking about racists. So you admit that Halla-aho and other PS members are racist? That would be a first from you. And again, I think you have to separate what is a condemnation of their opinions and a condemnation of the appearance of their arguments in the press.

      Actually, I know for a fact that Enrique’s beef is not with the press covering these people, but not being critical enough in their journalism. Journalism has to be objective, but part of that objectivety is presenting a criticial view of the opinions expressed by one particular party. Of course, it’s not secret that a great many tabloids abuse their responsibility as journalists and adopt a biased position, but sadly they fail their readers when they do this. In the BBC, for example, whenever a government position is presented, the comments of the opposition groups are almost always reported as well. This gives balance and objectivety to the piece.

      The problem in Finland is that there is very little political criticism of PS, so not much to report – it’s the fault not just of journalists, but a Finland-wide tolerance of extremism within the public sphere.

  16. Farang

    To be fair, if a magazine makes a story about Halla-aho’s family life, there is no reason to mix his immigration critizism with that story.

    And I don’t understand how you can say there is very little political critisism of PS, because all, even the smallest incidents by PS members are very largely reported in magazines.

    • Enrique Tessieri

      –And I don’t understand how you can say there is very little political critisism of PS, because all, even the smallest incidents by PS members are very largely reported in magazines.

      I believe it is a very positive matter that our media speaks out against racism, neo-Nazis, fascists and racists is a positive sign. The values that these groups bring to our table cannot be found anywhere in our laws never mind out Constitution.

      Being tolerant and open is the Finnish way.

    • Mark

      To be fair, if a magazine makes a story about Halla-aho’s family life, there is no reason to mix his immigration critizism with that story.

      I don’t see it as at all fair that he gets this very public humanising treatment while he himself dehumanises Muslims and immigrants. There is something fundamentally unfair about that. Perhaps that is the ‘incongruence’ that comes with that seeing a story about Allah-oho’s private family life. How about he invites a Muslim family into his home and then lets the magazine in to see the mixing of family life of both families and also the exchange of views on politics? That would be interesting and more to the point.

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      To be fair, if a magazine makes a story about Halla-aho’s family life, there is no reason to mix his racism with that story.

      Wouldn’t that be like writing about Kimi Räikkönen without referring to motor sport?

  17. Farang

    I don’t see it as at all fair that he gets this very public humanising treatment while he himself dehumanises Muslims and immigrants. There is something fundamentally unfair about that. Perhaps that is the ‘incongruence’ that comes with that seeing a story about Allah-oho’s private family life. How about he invites a Muslim family into his home and then lets the magazine in to see the mixing of family life of both families and also the exchange of views on politics? That would be interesting and more to the point.

    So, here we go. You totally want to strip all rights from Halla-aho to have a story about him which presents him as a father. You are just underlining your double standards and you don’t even recognize it.

    • Enrique Tessieri

      –You totally want to strip all rights from Halla-aho to have a story about him which presents him as a father.

      Certainly. How would you write a human interest story about Goebbels or Rosenberg? Could you do it without mentioning their blood-stained hands?

      Halla-aho has committed some very serious crimes in Finland for like inciting ethnic hatred and defaming a religion. In my book those are serious crimes in the same league as a Nazi hothead mouthing off his rants against Jews in the 1930s.

      Or do you want us to write a story about how nice Hitler was despite his rage attacks?

    • Mark

      Farang

      You totally want to strip all rights from Halla-aho to have a story about him which presents him as a father.

      Why do you always get so confused about these issues? When we are talking about real rights being stripped from immigrants, your head is up your arse, but when we talk about criticising opinions or actions, you seem to want to think that we are stripping away rights, calling to make it illegal etc. You seem to forget that discrimination is illegal.

      The issue here is not one of rights, but of a PR job on a man whose ethics look very questionable and who has been convicted of inciting ethnic hatred, among other things.

      You are just underlining your double standards and you don’t even recognize it.

      And you are just underlining your approach to make us look like hypocrites at every opportunity even to the point of distorting the arguments.

  18. Farang

    Wouldn’t that be like writing about Kimi Räikkönen without referring to motor sport?

    What would be wrong in that, if the story would be about something which has nothing to do with motor sport?

    • Enrique Tessieri

      –What would be wrong in that, if the story would be about something which has nothing to do with motor sport?

      Has Räikkönen been fined for inciting ethnic hatred? Get the difference?

    • Farang

      Has Räikkönen been fined for inciting ethnic hatred? Get the difference?

      What has that got to do with anything? What about the one minister who was caught drunk driving. Are you saying that whenever someone writes a story about her, they should always mention this drunk driving incident?

      Or every story about prime minister Katainen should mention that he has committed counterfitting an official record?

      Why do you make demands against PS members but you don’t make same demands for everyone else? That is called double standards.

    • Enrique Tessieri

      While I deplore drunk driving because it kills people, inciting ethnic hatred is a pretty bad crime.

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      What about the one minister who was caught drunk driving. Are you saying that whenever someone writes a story about her, they should always mention this drunk driving incident?

      If this offence was the reason for selecting this particular interviewee out of seven billion people, then certainly.

      Do you seriously believe that Halla-aho was chosen for this interview by a process of random selection – like sticking a hatpin in the phone book? Was he nominated as the author of Muinaiskirkkoslaavin käsikirja ja lukemisto?

      It is far more likely that he was singled out as Finland’s most famous contemporary racist criminal.

  19. Farang

    Enrique

    Halla-aho has committed some very serious crimes in Finland for like inciting ethnic hatred and defaming a religion. In my book those are serious crimes in the same league as a Nazi hothead mouthing off his rants against Jews in the 1930s.

    This is something I disagree. Halla-aho hasn’t committed any serious crime. Those crimes he was punished for, shouldn’t even be crimes.

    • Enrique Tessieri

      –This is something I disagree. Halla-aho hasn’t committed any serious crime. Those crimes he was punished for, shouldn’t even be crimes.

      The Finnish state disagrees with your point of view as well as many others. There are some who think that what Nazi Germany did weren’t crimes against humanity. But the law is the law. Halla-aho got sentenced and with that he got his fingers burned.

  20. Farang

    Mark

    Why do you always get so confused about these issues? When we are talking about real rights being stripped from immigrants,

    Who is confused? When the question is about a case where immigrant are not given special treatment or exclusive rights, you call that stripping of their rights.

    That makes no sense. If Finland would keep immigrants rights at same level as Finns, you call that stripping of their rights because in your opinion immigrant should get special treatment.

    Like in this burquini case, immigrants are demanding something extra, which is not allowed for Finns either, and yet you call it stripping their rights.

    You don’t have any logic, do you?

    • Mark

      Farang

      Who is confused? When the question is about a case where immigrant are not given special treatment or exclusive rights, you call that stripping of their rights.

      And STILL you are being selective. The last conversation we had involved immigrants being able to exercise their free and democratic right to exercise political advocacy. The argument before that was you defending torture, which is against human rights, and calling the Universal Declaration of Human Rights “bullshit”! The argument before that was the right of women to NOT have to take responsibility for rape. None of these issues involve ‘special treatment’ or ‘exclusive rights’, so stop fucking lying through your teeth about what we have discussed! Or our conversations really will end now!

      Like in this burquini case, immigrants are demanding something extra, which is not allowed for Finns either, and yet you call it stripping their rights.

      Again, there were two issues under discussion – the specific issue of campaigning on behalf of a special interest group, Muslim women, and to gain special accommodation for these groups. This was not a rights issue, but you went much further in saying that foreigners could and should not advocate for change in Finland, to effectively prohibit them from influencing political or civil decision-making in any way – that very clearly IS a rights issue, and I pulled you on that.

      On the issue of bathing costumes, we established already that several groups gain exclusive access to public amenities, including elderly people, babies, schools, athletes, people being rehabilitated, so the idea of accommodating a special interest group or specific demographic was not unusual.

      Yes, confused, aren’t you, as always!

  21. Farang

    JusticeDemon

    Do you seriously believe that Halla-aho was chosen for this interview by a process of random selection – like sticking a hatpin in the phone book? Was he nominated as the author of Muinaiskirkkoslaavin käsikirja ja lukemisto?

    No, he was chosen because he is famous and one of the most important and respected people in Finland.

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      And this notoriety was gained by political campaigning on a racist and fascist platform that has resulted in conviction for criminal offences.

      You would never have heard of Halla-aho without that racist and fascist political campaigning and nobody would be remotely interested in his home life.

  22. Mark

    Farang

    Do you think that all humans have equal value? I know you deny human rights to murderers and rapists, but do you think that value should be based on what an individual gives to society?

  23. Farang

    Do you think that all humans have equal value? I know you deny human rights to murderers and rapists, but do you think that value should be based on what an individual gives to society?

    Every human in born equal. Only if the human violates someone else’s rights, he no longes deserves them himself. Otherwise every human has same value.

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      Every human in born equal. Only if the human violates someone else’s rights, he no longes deserves them himself. Otherwise every human has same value.

      There is that religious background again, but are you aware that your racist criminal Master absolutely disagrees with your answer?

  24. Farang

    JusticeDemon

    You would never have heard of Halla-aho without that racist and fascist political campaigning and nobody would be remotely interested in his home life.

    Speak for yourself. I knew Halla-aho long before he became political figure.

    • JusticeDemon

      Because of your keen interest in old Slavonic literature, or why, precisely? We know that he is from Tampere and Helsinki, whereas you are from the Laestadian tundra region, so you didn’t go to school together.

  25. Farang

    JusticeDemon

    And this notoriety was gained by political campaigning on a racist and fascist platform that has resulted in conviction for criminal offences.

    You can’t say Halla-aho is a racist. Even the convictions he got had nothing to do with racism. The other conviction was about religion (not racism) and the other one every intelligent person can see what it was about. Somalis were used in his article only as an example, therefore it was not racist against Somalis.

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      You can’t say Halla-aho is a racist. Even the convictions he got had nothing to do with racism.

      Are you now exercising your self-appointed right to dictate to immigrants what they may and may not say?

      The point concerning conviction for racism has been asked and answered already.

      Ethnic agitation is a racist crime par excellence. It is the overtly public dissemination of racist views in order to promote racist thinking.

      Halal–höpö is a convicted racist criminal. The Finnish Supreme Court could not have expressed this more clearly. Obviously you have personal problems coming to terms with this, but the fact remains.

      Tell us why Somalis were used as an example in your Master’s racist blog entry. Why not Norwegians, Karelians or Laestadians? You have previously gone apeshit in this blog when the object of your “examples” was changed by our moderators.

  26. Farang

    Tell us why Somalis were used as an example in your Master’s racist blog entry. Why not Norwegians, Karelians or Laestadians? You have previously gone apeshit in this blog when the object of your “examples” was changed by our moderators.

    I didn’t write it, so I can’t know. Ask Halla-aho.

    Show me the documents from court which states racism or racist regarding Halla-ahos convictions. As long as you are unable to do so, you have no grounds in calling Halla-aho convicted racist criminal.

    • JusticeDemon

      Farang

      I didn’t write it, so I can’t know. Ask Halla-aho.

      Well there is a cop-out, if ever I saw one. It is quite evident that your racist criminal Master selected Somalis because he intended to defame them in particular.

      Show me the documents from court which states racism or racist regarding Halla-ahos convictions. As long as you are unable to do so, you have no grounds in calling Halla-aho convicted racist criminal.

      I refer you to paragraphs 26, 36 and 37 of the judgement of the Supreme Court of Finland issued on 8 June 2012. Just for starters. Halla-aho’s crime was introduced into the Finnish statute book to harmonise Finnish law with Council Framework Decision 2008/913/JHA of 28 November 2008 on combating certain forms and expressions of racism and xenophobia by means of criminal law.

  27. Farang

    JD

    I refer you to paragraphs 26, 36 and 37 of the judgement of the Supreme Court of Finland issued on 8 June 2012. Just for starters. Halla-aho’s crime was introduced into the Finnish statute book to harmonise Finnish law with Council Framework Decision 2008/913/JHA of 28 November 2008 on combating certain forms and expressions of racism and xenophobia by means of criminal law.

    You fail. Those comments about racism doesn’t refer to Halla-aho’s actions, they are only mentioned when referring to law. It doesn’t state that the actions that Halla-aho was convicted for, were racist.

    • JusticeDemon

      So by Farang’s reasoning there are no murderers or rapists. Only people who have somehow managed to break laws against murder and rape.

      The law that your criminal racist Master broke was enacted to penalise racist expression. The legislative history makes this clear, even to those who stubbornly deny that modus ponens is a law of inference.

    • JusticeDemon

      I think it was Neil Hardwick who first identified this type of reasoning in relation to advertising by Alko. The purpose of this advertising is to increase the level of brand recognition, not to promote consumption of alcoholic drinks.

      Hardwick commented at the time that this meant that it was Alko’s objective that everyone should know that their products exist, but nobody should drink them.

      The law that Halla-aho broke was specifically enacted to criminalise racist expression. Now Farang is arguing that this law is impossible to break, because any racist expression would just be racist expression and not a breach of the law against racist expression.

      Playing the Tortoise to Achilles is deliberate trolling, Farang. Perhaps you should take another holiday.

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