PS MP Hirvisaari gets suspended for five months for not sacking Eronen

by , under Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

The Helena Eronen scandal, the parliamentary aide that infamously suggested in Finland that foreigners should start wearing armbands to help police profile ethnic groups, took a new turn Tuesday when the Perussuomalaiset (PS) parliamentary group decided to suspend MP James Hirvisaari until September 15 for not sacking his aide.

It is clear that in the face of  Eronen’s and Hirvisaari’s open defiance, the PS will end up paying a costly political price taking into account the October 28 municipal election. This latest political fallout is taking place a year after the PS won its historic election victory and at the time when Anders Breivik is testifying in Oslo for killing 77 people.

While it was expected that the police will not investigate Eronen’s complaint to sue Turun Sanomat for defamation, it may well turn the other way around with criminal charges brought against her for what she wrote as a parliamentary aide, according to Turn Sanomat.

In many respects Eronen’s and Hirvisaari’s insistence that we must read what she wrote as satire reveals what is wrong with the thinking of these public servants and their anti-immigration ideology.

Just like their free-for-all to insult any ethnic group or nationality, they have no limits, no shame, no morals, no respect and no empathy. They are political liabilities to our democracy because of their shameful disregard for our civil rights.

They are the far-right ogre that has entered parliament in sheep’s clothing.

  1. BlandaUpp

    I find it appalling that the PS suspends these people instead of kicking them out like what would happen in a civilised democracy.

    Hirvisaari, already once convicted and fined for hate speech, has shown that he learnt nothing from his criminal conviction. His ideologies and actions are unsuitable for a person holding public office in a civilised country.

    Perhaps Hirvisaari and his supporters should attend an integration course on how to live on planet earth in a Globalised world in the 21st century.

  2. Elven archer

    I find it appalling that somebody suspends people for not stabbing others in the back for political reasons. It’s also horrible that some think that humour in your blog is a reason enough to get you fired. That’s like… fascism.

    • Mark

      Elven

      I find it appalling that somebody suspends people for not stabbing others in the back for political reasons. It’s also horrible that some think that humour in your blog is a reason enough to get you fired. That’s like… fascism.

      What bollocks. What was fascist was the whole tone of her satire, which offered ‘fascism’ to our immigrants as an alternative to racism (oh, just joking, though she didn’t actually point this out!).

  3. Elven archer

    “Hirvisaari, already once convicted and fined for hate speech, has shown that he learnt nothing from his criminal conviction.”

    Oh, that’s why they arrange these ridiculous, and some say political, trials. To get people all worked up like that. It’s scary when people hide behind these labels like “convicted” and not use the ethic and logic saying he really didn’t say anything worth mentioning. Many don’t even know what he said. His writing was little silly, that’s all. I’m very worried about certain people who hate the freedom of speech and think the people thinking and saying a little differently should be convicted. I think that’s quite a fascist kind of thinking. That is the biggest threat we have going on in Finland at the moment in my opinion.

  4. BlandaUpp

    When PS councilman Tommi Rautio was kicked out of the party for saying that the killer of a Moroccan Pizzeria employee should be given a medal, James Hirvisaari, again, came out saying that the kicking out made him concerned about free speech in Finland.

    When will this idiot and his supporters like World of Warcraft EA here, get it through their thick skulls that there’s a HUGE difference between free speech and the incitement of pogroms and genocide!?!?!

  5. Elven archer

    You either have free speech or don’t. Usually the genocides (where an earth did you get that, who has talked about that?) occur in the societies which don’t allow free speech and thinking differently.

  6. Elven archer

    “All you want is free hate speech.”

    Putting words in my mouth instead of making arguments. Why do you do that? Do you think that you just did right? Would you teach your kids to make assumptions of people, “reading their minds” and presenting your own assumptions based on labeling me as facts? So why do you do it yourself? Does that make you a better person?

    I don’t want any hate speech. I hate hate speech.

  7. Elven archer

    There can’t be freedom of speech if it’s limited to the things that nobody objects to hear. The true test is to ability to say something nobody likes. If you don’t have that you really don’t have freedom of speech. If you think otherwise then you have freedom of speech in North Korean too because there you can say what the leaders and people want to hear.

    There are all sorts of problems when people try to dictate what to say and what to not say. For example, some are using the law to make it more difficult to criticize the government’s immigration politics. There has already been trials and convictions. There’s ever growing fear to express even polite opinions if the facts are taboos. People are being censored by themselves because of fear of the consequences. Even presenting facts are not a “get out of jail” -card. Even criticizing ideas like religion could get you to trouble. That’s scary as hell and that’s kind of fascist I think.

    And it’s important that people don’t suppress their feelings. That probably would not help their mental state. Also opinions that are out there can be criticized. If they don’t leave people’s heads then you can’t affect those opinions. They don’t go away but they might if you can make good counter arguments and show the error in their ways.

  8. badzooka

    There’s a fine line between freedom of speech and hate-incitement. Deciding between the two is a rather subjective action, but isn’t that what we have democracy for? Whether or not PS was elected after the Brievik event, it was still elected and, if one still has faith in democracy, it represents the will of at least part of the citizens. What it does and doesn’t do represents the will of that part of the people, and the suspension of said MP represents a will that such hard liner speech is not tolerated by its voters (or Perussuomalaiset is trying to broaden its voter base to include more moderate right wingers)

    My question is that isn’t there a commission or statutory group that regulates what elected officials and their members of staff can or can not publicly say? Freedom of speech doesn’t mean that you can say whatever you want, and if you’re a public or elected official what you say represents not just your own view but your voters as well.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi badzooka and welcome to Migrant Tales. I totally agree with you: “Freedom of speech doesn’t mean that you can say whatever you want, and if you’re a public or elected official what you say represents not just your own view but your voters as well.”

      When Eronen wrote her column on armbands she threw dirt at the very institution she works for, which is supposed to defend precious things like our civil rights and social equality.

  9. BlandaUpp

    World of Warcraft EA

    All you want is free hate speech. There are laws against hate speech for a reason.

    Learn from history or be condemned to repeat it.

    It’s what separates civilised human beings from animals like Hitler and Breivik.

  10. Elven archer

    “All you want is free hate speech. There are laws against hate speech for a reason.

    Learn from history or be condemned to repeat it.”

    Well, you certainly seem to repeat yourself. There is no arguments there, no counter arguments to those that I presented, so nothing to answer.

    You just label people. The history clearly shows that there is a clear correlation between no freedom of speech and all kinds of dictatorships doing evil things. It’s quite obvious why. Do you think Hitler gave people the right to freely express their opinions? No, he had only one truth, his, and the means to keep the people not sharing his views silent. Sounds too familiar for my liking.

  11. Elven archer

    “What was fascist was the whole tone of her satire, which offered ‘fascism’ to our immigrants as an alternative to racis”

    Satire offered? That’s interesting. So it “offered”. The things are good in this country when people have to get all hysterical about some silly satire.

    “oh, just joking, though she didn’t actually point this out”

    Yeah, the hamburger badges were clearly not a joke… Oh, please. Why do we have to do the things in a way that even the most challenged ones understand everything? Nobody forces anybody to read her blog. So just don’t.

    I could give your many names of the writers, famous ones, that wrote satire which was joking about something serious. I guess there won’t be many names to be added to this list if this kind of hysteria advances even more.

    • Mark

      Elven

      Satire offered? That’s interesting. So it “offered”

      😀 😀 It’s called the ‘inanimate agent’, look it up, you might learn something.

      Yeah, the hamburger badges were clearly not a joke…

      Not clear at all. And anyhow, she was already well into her performance before that appeared.

      I could give your many names of the writers, famous ones, that wrote satire which was joking about something serious

      Which would clearly be a waste of time as this argument is not about using satire per se, Elven, but about using satire inappropriately and in very bad taste. It’s about the level of discretion and respect for the institution she was employed by. Why don’t YOU get that. Or is it really, anything goes in the name of free speech?

  12. BlandaUpp

    World of Warcraft EA

    So you agree with James Hirvisaari when he defended Tommi Rautio after he was kicked out of the PS for saying that the killer of a Moroccan Pizzeria employee should be given a medal, on the grounds of free speech?

    This was Timo Soini’s response to what Tommi Rautio said and why Rautio was dismissed from the party:

    ”That kind of text is disgusting and even racist”

    ”No one has told people to applaud killings. This is utterly shocking and inhuman”

    If you do, then you’re an extremist and not for free speech, all you want is free hate speech.

  13. Mark

    Elven

    For example, some are using the law to make it more difficult to criticize the government’s immigration politics. There has already been trials and convictions.

    Yes, but not trials for criticizing the government’s immigration policies, let’s be clear about that. Trials for calling Mohammad a pedophile and saying that Islam asserts that pedophilia is okay. And then the Hirvisaari conviction for labelling particular groups criminals, with the Court of Appeals specifically saying in their summary that:

    labelling a group as criminals goes beyond the kind of exaggeration and confrontational writing that falls within the bounds of freedom of speech.

    See, Finnish courts do take into account that free speech allows for exaggeration and confrontational writing, but that the PS politician Hirvisaari went beyond that.

  14. justicedemon

    Elf

    As so often, we have to take you to bits kicking and screaming, one bit at a time.

    Stage 1: Does my “freedom of speech” entitle me to tell your employer and everybody else that you regularly expose your genitals to children in public playgrounds?

  15. khr

    While it was expected that the police will not investigate Eronen’s complaint to sue Turun Sanomat for defamation, it may well turn the other way around with criminal charges brought against her for what she wrote as a parliamentary aide, according to Turn Sanomat.

    It is pretty sad that this is the case. The original article by TS was incredibly misleading and does fit the definition of the crime (“törkeä kunnianloukkaus”) very well. Unfortunately I do not dare to express freely what I think about police officers who think it appropriate to apply laws discriminately based on the political affiliations of the victim. I can not trust that the investigation for that defamation would be halted.

    Now that the media will be apparently free to continue incorrect reporting of the case, they will do so, and it’ll become the official truth. What she actually wrote will be actively forgotten by the mainstream media.

    Eronen would deserve to be fired for showing extremely poor taste in choice of subject to joke about, and because such action leads to bad publicity to the party of her chief. (Her disregard of the worries of the minority ombudsman are in line with the general opinions of the party members, so despite being objectionable I would not consider it basis for terminating her job). That, however, was not the case. She was/is in danger of being fired for what the newspapers wrote about her. Everyone deserves to be judged by their actions, not by what someone else decides to accuse them of. That includes Eronen.

    As for the decision taken by Hirvisaari I do not know what to think. Was it because he though she was being persecuted for the wrong reasons, or because he though she wrote nothing objectionable?

  16. justicedemon

    khr

    Is it your view that the police decision not to investigate Eronen’s complaint now finally closes that complaint, despite your claim that the complaint was very well founded?

    I suppose public officials can relax when they see you coming into the office. All they need to do is say “no” to whatever you want, and the case is closed. Ignorance has always been the most effective vehicle of disenfranchisement.

    Or as we used to say in the civil service: what the client doesn’t know can’t hurt us.

  17. khr

    justicedemon: I admit not knowing the legal system particularly well. By what you wrote I get there’s some reasonable way to get the case handled despite the police’s decision. However, how TS reports the news, it says: “Päätökseen ei voi hakea muutosta valittamalla”, which sounds pretty ominous. I really think the case deserves to be examined in court as a criminal matter.

    • Migrant Tales

      –By what you wrote I get there’s some reasonable way to get the case handled despite the police’s decision.

      Could somebody enlighten me why Eronen is right in suing Turn Sanomat? For what? Just because she didn’t like what they wrote? Her complaint to the police shows, if anything, her ignorance of how the media works in this country and what it is. Her boss, PS MP James Hirvisaari, is even at a greater loss, in darkness about our media.

  18. badzooka

    “As for the decision taken by Hirvisaari I do not know what to think. Was it because he though she was being persecuted for the wrong reasons, or because he though she wrote nothing objectionable?”

    Probably both, but whatever the reasoning that Hirvisaari used to reach his decision to protect his aide, he has taken that decision and now should stand by it and accept the political fallout. I have now slightly more respect for PS for taking some action against such distasteful behavior, as this now runs the risk of becoming acceptable and forgiven. That would indeed be an evolutionary step backwards. (I’d like to mention here that I’m against marginalization of immigrants in any nation, and completely for integration. Obviously its easier not to learn the customs and rules of one’s new host country, but when you’re in someone’s house you should respect their rules. When in Rome …)

  19. khr

    A civil case can be expensive and extremely stressing, so I consider it a poor substituent to have it properly done by the public prosecutor.

  20. Mark

    Khr

    She was/is in danger of being fired for what the newspapers wrote about her. Everyone deserves to be judged by their actions, not by what someone else decides to accuse them of. That includes Eronen.

    I think this is true to some extent. But she left herself completely open to this. After all, she was NOT holding up the views of her boss or the views of the party for satire. It is fair to ask whose views she was satirising?

    If this was a satirical response to the Ombudsmen, who had criticized racial profiling, it’s hard to see how she thought these must be his views.

    Her satire was therefore I assume aimed at PS’s political critics, who have accused them of being Nazi-spirited. But the conflation of the different topics and actors in this story is a recipe for disaster, which is exactly what followed. Without seeing clearly who she was satirizing, people were more inclined to take the remarks at face value. You cannot blame them for that.

    You could say that she defended racial profiling by saying ‘it’s better than fascism, ha ha’. Who mentioned fascism? That’s the problem. Where does this fit in with what the Ombudsmen said? There is no humanization in this satire. There is no breaking down of beliefs or attitudes to reveal the hypocrisy. The one joke seems to be, ‘hey, let’s pretend to be like Nazis, cos that’s what they think we are anyway’. Pretending to be Nazis for comic effect in a political environment is extremely questionable!

    The point of satire is typically to attack politicians. When ‘politicians’ start using satire to fire back at their critics, then they are asking for trouble, to be honest. As a parliamentary aide, I would class her as a ‘parliamentary actor’.

    Actually, from a critic of PS, it might actually have been good satire – definitely better than using it as a political defence. There was just something completely arse about face with this text of hers. But then that is true of PS in general.

  21. justicedemon

    khr

    I am relieved in a way to find that Finnish people are often every bit as confused and bamboozled as foreigners dealing with the Finnish administrative system. Ask yourself what the last word is doing in the stock expression “Tähän päätökseen ei saa hakea muutosta valittamalla“.

    There are two direct avenues available to a complainant who wishes to pursue a case of this kind: either petition administratively to have the case reopened or file a private prosecution (which is not the same as a civil action, by the way). The latter avenue need not be especially stressful, bearing in mind that the grounds for issuing the summons (=haaste) would flatly contradict the grounds that the police gave for dropping the case.

    A more interesting question when taking the latter avenue is whether the police could be held liable for the complainant’s costs. If the action of the police was as politically motivated as you suggest, then this would be an offence in office.

  22. khr

    Mark:

    But she left herself completely open to this. After all, she was NOT holding up the views of her boss or the views of the party for satire. It is fair to ask whose views she was satirising?

    I think this explains largely why the reporting happened like it did, however, it does not justify it. I did read her writing as two headed: one towards the minority ombudsman, and one against the critics of PS, like you wrote. I can not agree with “Without seeing clearly who she was satirizing, people were more inclined to take the remarks at face value. You cannot blame them for that”. That it was meant as satire was obvious – it has been pretty obvious to non-native readers here, and it’s blindingly obvious to a native reader. For a professional language user like a journalist ignoring the tone is inexcusable.

    The intended satire was simply bad, but that does not justify maliciously misleading reporting.

    (I agree with the analysis of the rest of the failings of her blog entry – nothing to add there)

  23. khr

    Migrant Tales: She’s seeking legal action because she considers the reporting incorrect in a way that it becomes defamation, rather than just not liking it (I happen to agree with her in that).

  24. khr

    Thanks for the explanation JD. Dealing with the bureaucracy is indeed frustrating. I can imagine it must be even worse for someone who’s not native. Finding the way is very much up to any individual person, and there’s not much help in that. I haven’t needed to deal with legal matters such as this (and hope to keep it that way), so I haven’t needed to find out the possible procedures.

    I hope the police action is not politically motivated, but can’t completely shake off the feeling it might be.

  25. D4R

    Khr: She’s seeking legal action because she considers the reporting incorrect in a way that it becomes defamation, rather than just not liking it (I happen to agree with her in that).

    Can i sue her for demeaning me as she did when suggesting a nazi type of armband?

  26. khr

    D4R: A similar investigation request like Eronen made has been made about her writing. We do not know the fate of that yet.

  27. Toni

    D4R: “Can i sue her for demeaning me as she did when suggesting a nazi type of armband?”

    Sorry, but she suggested military like armband that is also used in workplaces and sports. “Connection” to Natzism was invented to news by a journalist. Natzis also used written words, so every time you write text here you are using Natzi type communication method…

    If you drink Fanta you are totally Nazi like supporter… Next time you offer Fanta drink to someone you are flirting with Natzis. There are many other things that are Nazi-like and you use them every day with no problems.

    Armbands were not invented by Natzis and they are widely used every day life to mark some people. And no-one thinks it is Nazism to mark the captain, foreman or officers, police, and other security officers with armband. Or giving them other kind of markings for regognition.

  28. Mark

    Toni

    Sorry, but she suggested military like armband that is also used in workplaces and sports.

    Toni, your damage-limitation is full of shit. You have stripped out all the context if the only thing you look at is some kind of sleeve emblem and how ’emblems’ are used.

    The context that you conveniently choose to ignore again and again is that this was for the use of the police in identifying immigrants, and that it was a policy suggested by a Far Right nationalist, even if done so ‘jokingly’. Nothing to do with the workplace or sports, you flipping twit!

    “Connection” to Natzism was invented to news by a journalist. Natzis also used written words, so every time you write text here you are using Natzi type communication method…

    Connection to Nazism is an historical fact that even a 10-year old could probably visually understand!

    If you drink Fanta you are totally Nazi like supporter… Next time you offer Fanta drink to someone you are flirting with Natzis. There are many other things that are Nazi-like and you use them every day with no problems.

    This is just pathetic. The fact that you cannot see through the complete paucity of your argument shows you to be as thick as a fooking plank!

    You are convincing no-one! In fact, you are just bloody irritating in the way you insult everyone’s intelligence!

  29. Toni

    Mark: “The context that you conveniently choose to ignore again and again is that this was for the use of the police in identifying immigrants”

    Yes. Police was asking how to identify illegal immigrants. Helena was thinking one solution. You try to protect criminals. Police protects them too.

    Mark: “it was a policy suggested by a Far Right nationalist, even if done so ‘jokingly’”

    Who? Helena is not part of any Far Right nationalist group.

    Mark: “Connection to Nazism is an historical fact that even a 10-year old could probably visually understand! ”

    I would imagine 99% of Finns and other people in the world don’t relate arm bandages to Natsism. They relate it to military and sports. They watch those bandages every day!!

  30. khr

    Toni: Eronen was aware of the nazi-like nature: “Noh, ehkä teille nyt tulee tuosta ehdotuksestani mieleen jotain negatiivisia mielleyhtymiä, …”. Media is not guilty so much of inventing a nazi connection, but of totally overblowing the issue by falsely claiming she was being serious.

  31. Mark

    Toni

    Yes. Police was asking how to identify illegal immigrants. Helena was thinking one solution. You try to protect criminals. Police protects them too.

    Aghh, the sweet sound of creaky goalposts shifting noisily in the breeze.

    ‘You try to protect criminals’. Yep, like opposing SOPA and PIPA was being in favour of child pornography! Yep, I’ve heard this kind of nonsense before.

    Who? Helena is not part of any Far Right nationalist group.

    Who are you kidding? She works for Hirvisaari as his ‘personal assistant’. She wears Nazi army paraphernalia on her army cap. And she thinks it’s okay to joke about social segregation a la Jewish internment.

    I would imagine 99% of Finns and other people in the world don’t relate arm bandages to Natsism. They relate it to military and sports. They watch those bandages every day!!

    Absolute rubbish. For a start, this suggestion had nothing to do with SPORT, and nothing to do with SOLDIERS, but plain old citizens, walking around, driving around, sitting around etc.

    You are nuts if you think that you can twist this around to be something else other than a veiled reference to Nazi-style segregation of Jews and others. I’m sure even Helena wouldn’t deny the obvious link. That was the point of her satire after all, that PS’s critics see them as Nazis.

    Toni, I’m done trying to debate this with you. You show absolutely no willingness to see this in any other way except your own Fanta-infused, sport’s illustrated, military camouflaged view. Fine. Keep taking the pills!

  32. Toni

    >Toni: “Eronen was aware of the nazi-like nature: “Noh, ehkä teille nyt tulee tuosta ehdotuksestani mieleen jotain negatiivisia mielleyhtymiä”

    That means she understands now that some people can see the relation like I can see the relation to army and to football. Every text can be seen related to somewhere. Natzis used written words, so I see every time I write text it can be related to Natzism. I don’t drink Fanta any more as I know where it comes from…

    Media invented the natzi relation.

    • Migrant Tales

      Toni, there is a very big difference between drinking Fanta and wearing a Star of David emblem in WW2. I used to own a VW, which is a car conceived during the Hitler era.

      You try to neutralize a horrific historical deed like the Holocaust by stating that Fanta was invented by the Nazis.

      There are some very terrible things to put it lightly that the Nazis did. One of them was their racial policies and how they classified people into different groups. That is what is at stake here not drinking a soft drink.

  33. Toni

    >Mark: Who are you kidding? She works for Hirvisaari as his ‘personal assistant’.

    So, if I work in company XZ and some people accuse company XZ of using child labour. Then do you thik I am a user of child labour if I work in a company that uses it?

    Mark: “She wears Nazi army paraphernalia on her army cap. ”

    Finnish Army caps do not have Natzi symbols.
    I thougt her cap was Russian.

    So, I see you think Hirvisaari is Natzi-like man? A racist? Why?

    Mark: “For a start, this suggestion had nothing to do with SPORT, and nothing to do with SOLDIERS, ”

    That is just your opinion, your way of thinking. I relate it to sports and army. I didn’t remember Natzis used that. 99% of people don’t remember that. 99% of people don’t remember how many people Stalin killed, or Mao in China. They killed much more that Natzis.

    Mark: “but plain old citizens, walking around, driving around, sitting around etc.”

    Yes, players are citizens who run around. On their free time many of them uses team markings. Soldiers are plain citizens who walk around when on free time… And police and security officers are plain citizens who walk around. And motorcycle groups too with their vests.

    • Mark

      Toni

      Finnish Army caps do not have Natzi symbols.
      I thougt her cap was Russian.

      Where did I mention ‘Finnish army cap’? You are looking at the wrong hat if you are looking at the Russian one, or has she deleted the other picture?

      So, I see you think Hirvisaari is Natzi-like man? A racist? Why?

      I’m not getting into this argument. Go and ask the courts why they fined him for hate speech.

      That is just your opinion, your way of thinking. I relate it to sports and army. I didn’t remember Natzis used that. 99% of people don’t remember that. 99% of people don’t remember how many people Stalin killed, or Mao in China. They killed much more that Natzis.

      99% this, and 99% that does not make you 99% right!

      Yes, players are citizens who run around. On their free time many of them uses team markings. Soldiers are plain citizens who walk around when on free time… And police and security officers are plain citizens who walk around. And motorcycle groups too with their vests.

      Starting to struggle a bit with this, aren’t you?! “Soldiers are plain citizens who walk around when on free time…” And? No mention of emblems. “On their free time many of them uses team markings”. Are they forced to? “And police and security officers are plain citizens who walk around.” And no mention of emblems again. Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic!!!!

  34. Toni

    MT: “Toni, there is a very big difference between drinking Fanta and wearing a Star of David emblem in WW2.”

    Fanta was invented by Natzis. Clear connection?
    Helena didn’t talk anything about star symbols. She wrote about arm bandages or sleeve markings. They have no direct or deterministic relation to Natzis but a clear relation to today’s life, police, military, etc.

    MT: “You try to neutralize a horrific historical deed like the Holocaust by stating that Fanta was invented by the Nazis. ”

    No I am not neutralizing. You only believe I am. I am not talking about H-caust, you are. I am not talking about Natzis, you are. I am talking about labels that has nothing to do with Natzism.
    Fanta is a label that has direct and clear relation to Natzism.

    MT: “One of them was their racial policies and how they classified people into different groups.”

    Russians did that. China did that. Arabs are doing that. Some African countries are doing that. What are labels for them so I can avoid talking, referring and using them?

  35. Mark

    Toni

    So, next time someone suggests exterminating the Jews, you will say that this has about as much connection with Nazism as Fanta? After all, Fanta was invented by Nazis. Yes?

    And when someone suggests we start with putting emblems on their clothes so that the authorities can recognise them, you will say that this has about as much connection with Nazism as Fanta? After all, Fanta was invented by Nazis. Yes?

    And when someone suggests that we put them all on trains and send them to ‘work’ camps, you will say that this has about as much connection with Nazism as Fanta? After all, Fanta was invented by Nazis. Yes?

    And when someone suggests they shave their heads, and put them into striped pyjamas, you will say that this has about as much connection with Nazism as Fanta? After all, Fanta was invented by Nazis. Yes?

    And when someone suggests they walk into gas chambers, you will say that this has about as much connection with Nazism as Fanta? After all, Fanta was invented by Nazis. Yes?

  36. eyeopener

    Hi Mark.

    What is said about armsleeves is basically right. A lot of organizations have them and wear them. However they are voluntary, self imposed and “for members only”. Like a “we” and “them situation. A motor-club would not like to have their symbols used by non-members. Neither do sportclubs nor does the army or police.

    Eronen’s problem is that this “common-sense” idea of hers is imposing armsleeves on others and this is done involuntary and creating an unwanted split in society.

    In my opinion many of the contributors here make this same mistake, uncritically or very deliberately distorting the discussion with very non-sense and -as-above explained unjustified arguments. Actually they are non-arguments.

    You don’t need to be a member of a farright wing party/organization to be far-right wing or even nazi. Many Germans and other collaborators in European and even the US refuse to be named as nazis. Although they have supported and collaborated voluntarily with the nazis in their countries. There is a common name for these persons: Quislings. His Norwegian fellow-man Breivik doesn’t want to be called a Nazi. However in his manifesto about 70% of the text could be taken from nazi documents. So also that is not an argument.

    Another issue that cuaght my eye is the continuous blindness of the right eye. Many of the contributors here seem to know so much how other dictatorial systems have treated and killed opponents. But no facts are mentioned. As if everybody knows. Why then is it so that these contributors are not willing to accept that their “brothers-in-arms” introduced atrocity as a game. Killing inferior people (armsleeved) was/is even necessary. It is satirecally and ironically called “self-defence”

    Now Eronen (satirecally) brings back the beginning of this game-sytem. Imposing on other people, involuntary and making an unwanted “we”-“they”.

    Whoever says that this is a satire is self-imposed, voluntary and wantingly making a fool out of her/himself.

    Hard to accept for those blind-eyed that critical people see through this non-satire message.

    Simple isn’t it?

  37. Mark

    Eyeopener

    What is said about armsleeves is basically right.

    I’m not sure what you mean by ”what is said’. What has been said here by Toni ignores context. Context is everything. It’s a bit like saying, well, murder with a Glock 17 is not bad because, hey, the police use Glock 17s.

    The logic is so twisted and distorted it bends your brain just to think about it.

    I refuse to accept that the simple use of arm sleeves in any way equates with what Eronen suggested. To do so is to lose all sight of context: of the political context, of the authoritarian context, of the historical context. And I will not entertain that kind of whitewash argument for a second!

  38. Mark

    Eyeopener

    Eronen’s problem is that this “common-sense” idea of hers is imposing armsleeves on others and this is done involuntary and creating an unwanted split in society.

    I agree. I made the same point to Toni already.

    “On their free time many of them uses team markings”. Are they forced to?

    But it’s definitely worth repeating. I agree, Toni’s comments are so inane, so outrageous, that it is almost difficult to know where to start in demolishing them.

  39. Toni

    >Mark: “So, next time someone suggests exterminating the Jews, you will say that this has about as much connection with Nazism as Fanta?”

    Noup. You manipualte again. When was the last time some Finn suggested extermination? I have no clue…
    Every day some muslims suggest extermination of the Jews.

  40. Toni

    Mark: “Context is everything. It’s a bit like saying, well, murder with a Glock 17 is not bad because, hey, the police use Glock 17s.”

    You don’t seem to want to understand my point.
    Ofcourse killing with a gun is about the same, no matter what kind of a gun was used.

    But you accuse shooting a gun for fun is Natzi-like behaviour because they used guns to kill people… So no-one can use guns without referring to Natzism because Natzis used them to kill people.

    I am sure you still didn’t get my point..

  41. Mark

    Toni

    Noup. You manipualte again. When was the last time some Finn suggested extermination? I have no clue…

    I manipulate? Who has removed all the context from the suggestion for armbands? Who has tried to water down the historical connections with Nazism by throwing in a completly irrelevant reference to other things that the Nazis did that have nothing like the same social and political consequences? Get a life, Toni.

    Every day some muslims suggest extermination of the Jews.

    Wonderful observation.

  42. Mark

    But you accuse shooting a gun for fun is Natzi-like behaviour because they used guns to kill people… So no-one can use guns without referring to Natzism because Natzis used them to kill people.

    Now you have this arseways! This obviously does not compute!

    I understood your point, Toni. Your point was that armbands are not necessarily anything to do with Nazism, or political authoritarianism, that in fact armbands are used by the army, by people doing sports activities and by so on. All perfectly normal activities with no Nazi strings attached.

    However, none of the examples you suggest have a political context, and none involve being forced to wear an armband, as Eyeopener also suggests, and none of these are for the purposes of making civilians identifiable to the authorities. If you cannot see that this Eronen suggestion is something completely different, then something is seriously ‘missing’ from your cognitive faculties.

    I don’t believe that you are stupid. So I guess you simply refuse to understand the point being made because you don’t want to be seen to be wrong. Fine.

  43. eyeopener

    Hi Mark.

    The demolition of the arguments supportive for armsleeves is rather simple and actually quite easy. However, the getting sense in the minds of the people who express these simplistic ideas is -satirecally said- Don Quichotte and Sancho Panza or Sisyphus work.

    Better spend time on knowing to what issues and behavior to react. Deliberate distraction and change of issue are the tactics used by many of the contributors here. As much as twisting arguments, especially when they are a repetition from what has already been “dismantled as a flaw and a fraud” That’s rather annoying. Charactizes the intellectual level of these contributors satirecally said of course.

    Simple minds are a joy for ever.

  44. Toni

    Mark. “Who has removed all the context from the suggestion for armbands?”

    How do you know what was the context? It certainly was not for extermination like you seem to think…

    Mark: “Who has tried to water down the historical connections with Nazism by throwing in a completly irrelevant reference to other things that the Nazis did that have nothing like the same social and political consequences? ”

    Historical connection? Social consequences? And you are the expert of those?
    Is using sleeve badges a historical connection to civil war in USA?
    Using badges has a long history.

    When I go abroad I try to use a label that tells where I am from…

  45. eyeopener

    Hi Mark

    Just an example of the argument twisting. You made a point of reasoning: “Context is everything.It’s a bit like saying, well, murder with a Glock 17 is not bad because, hey, the police use Glock 17s.”

    Here comes the twist: But you accuse shooting a gun for fun is Natzi-like behaviour because they used guns to kill people… So no-one can use guns without referring to Natzism because Natzis used them to kill people.

    Nobody has said shooting a gun for fun is Nazi-like behavior nor the following reasoning. The conclusion therefore is not yours. The contributor tries to put words in your mouth. Manipulation is what I call these tactics.

    And that’s how they try to get away when they find out not having any arguments only the BLABLABLA-ones. Or the excuse of satire or downplaying or #self-defence” or…………

    In this way these contributors seem to be able to claim the discussion all the time.

    See how simple??

  46. Mark

    Toni

    How do you know what was the context? It certainly was not for extermination like you seem to think…

    Excellent question Toni. Excellent. The context was a criticism of police profiling, that is, stopping foreigners to see if they are doing anything illegal based on their appearance. Eronen suggested (sarcastically of course) that if we don’t use their appearance as a reason to stop them, then we can use armbands. That way we know who is the foreigner.

    That, my dear friend Toni is the context!

    Historical connection? Social consequences? And you are the expert of those?

    Why does one need to be an expert in history to recognise that the authorities putting armbands on people for the purpose of identification was last done in Europe by the Nazis?

    Is using sleeve badges a historical connection to civil war in USA?
    Using badges has a long history.

    I agree. But the vast majority of that history is irrelevant to the context created by Eronen’s text.

    When I go abroad I try to use a label that tells where I am from…

    Good for you. Now I’m pretty sure that this is voluntary!?

  47. Mark

    Eyeopener

    In this way these contributors seem to be able to claim the discussion all the time.

    See how simple??

    Yes, I see it. But it’s not rational. It’s like a merrygoround; it’ll spin you dizzy if you are not careful.

    They win by simply putting out a response. And that’s why I’m so stubborn in return. Why should they have the last say, as if ‘the truth is what lasts longest in the debate’? But then again, it is quite infuriating. Is it deliberate? Probably. But that shows them to be completely ungenuine. I try to same to myself, “well, there may be a good enough reason for believing this, so there should be a way to approach that ‘reasoning’ and engaging with it constructively!” But no. It seems not. At least in this case.

    One of the commonest bragging that you see on Hommaforum in regard to Migrant Tales is how they asked a question that we cannot answer! 🙂 By simply restating the same flawed logic over and over and ignoring the responses or not fully processing them, they insist that the question has not yet been answered.

    Some people are obviously easily satisfied.

  48. Toni

    Mark: “That, my dear friend Toni is the context!”

    Yes. But how that refers to Holocaust, Natzism or extermination of a race?

    Mark: “Why does one need to be an expert in history to recognise that the authorities putting armbands on people for the purpose of identification was last done in Europe by the Nazis?”

    Like I said, they use sleeve badges marking captains, officers, etc. That is what they are for Today!

    Mark: “Good for you. Now I’m pretty sure that this is voluntary!?”

    So why not make it voluntary for foreigers here? One uses badget to inform being legal immigrant. The Finns use a badget for being a Finn. Those who don’t use any badget can be searched… Or would it just be easier to instal a under-skin chip like Soininvaara (Vihreät) suggested?

  49. Toni

    You agree with Soininvaara?

    As long as you understand there is no racism in True Finn party, Sisu or much any others either. That is what police has reported.
    Personally I think RKP acts quite racistic…

    • Mark

      Toni

      There is a reason it’s called Far Right – far from reality!

    • Mark

      Toni

      Also, as your friends from Homma keep wanting to remind us, racism isn’t illegal, only racist acts.

  50. eyeopener

    Hi Mark.

    Didn’t you see it??

    When I saw this Soininvaara message I thought immediately: What a sarcastic message!! So clearly a satire.

    Poepoe Hoho!!. That was simple!!

  51. eyeopener

    Continue.

    Have to equip the påolice with a barcode detector. Whoaaaaahhhhh!! Cool. I already see these police guys swaying their barcode detectors around. PIEPS!!!! There is one foreigner but we can’t find out who because the person we detected is not black, blue red yellow.

    Hahaha Finland will rise on the Innovation Monitor again.

    And a lot of people in Finland feel a lot more stupid.

    Simple future isn’t it Mark??

  52. Väinämöinen

    Mark

    BTW, you can also as an immigrant say that immigration and multiculture sucks. There are immigrants who do that. Every human with a little logical reasoning and wider view can and should do say so with facts in hand. Otherwise you have to start deceiving people…and yourself.

  53. D4R

    Toni: If you drink Fanta you are totally Nazi like supporter… Next time you offer Fanta drink to someone you are flirting with Natzis. There are many other things that are Nazi-like and you use them every day with no problems.

    Yes but what is her ideology? i visited many times in her blog, judging by her writings and what her other visitors write on her blog, i believe her ideology is Nazism, ideology can be dangerous especially when someone in high office position have that type of ideology: Your fanta analogy isnt working.

  54. Väinämöinen

    Mark

    usually people who think and act differently are Linus Thorvalds, Wayne Gretzky, Kekkonen, Ingvar Kamprad (Ikea guy), Bill Gates, Martti Ahtisaari and so forth. But when it comes to immigration it is just so so..hard to get out of the comfort zone.

    • Mark

      Vainamoinen

      Trying to cream off other people’s glories? 🙂

      So what is your point exactly, apart from trying to be creative about your insults and failing miserably?

  55. D4R

    Toni: Yes. Police was asking how to identify illegal immigrants. Helena was thinking one solution. You try to protect criminals. Police protects them too.

    First it was s joke and now it is a suggestion to the police? whose lying?

  56. D4R

    Toni: That means she understands now that some people can see the relation like I can see the relation to army and to football. Every text can be seen related to somewhere. Natzis used written words, so I see every time I write text it can be related to Natzism. I don’t drink Fanta any more as I know where it comes from…

    Media invented the natzi relation.

    Either you’re playing dumb or you’re seriouse.

  57. D4R

    Toni: So, if I work in company XZ and some people accuse company XZ of using child labour. Then do you thik I am a user of child labour if I work in a company that uses it?

    No, you’re a associate, that means you share with their crime unless you don’t know what’s going on inside the company, but in Helenas case it’s different, she is well aware of her boss Nazi ideology.

  58. D4R

    correction, you’re associate only, Helena associates with Nazis, and her suggesting armbands to immigrants was a shock.

  59. D4R

    Mark: The logic is so twisted and distorted it bends your brain just to think about it

    LoL i am laughing at this comment, Mark, i was just wondering the same thing, Toni’s way of thinking his reason and logic got me scratch my head, im like is he seriouse?

  60. D4R

    Toni: Every day some muslims suggest extermination of the Jews.

    Bring me the source and i will gladly tackle your claim 🙂

    • Migrant Tales

      –Toni: Every day some muslims suggest extermination of the Jews.

      Everyday some far-right Finn is accusing immigrants of something.

    • Migrant Tales

      Toni, what is it that you want to prove? Is it that two wrongs make a right? I could, if I wished, post tons of crimes committed by white Finns. Is that ok? What you are effectively doing is victimizing groups. Why do you victimize? Is it because you have a hard time accepting other people and therefore you must ostracize them here.

      Migrant Tales is not that kind of a blog. You can go to Hommaforum or even Ylilauta to expose your view.

    • Migrant Tales

      Toni, what is it that you want to prove? Is it that two wrongs make a right? I could, if I wished, post tons of crimes committed by white Finns. Is that ok? What you are effectively doing is victimizing groups. Why do you victimize? Is it because you have a hard time accepting other people and therefore you must ostracize them here.

      Migrant Tales is not that kind of a blog. You can go to Hommaforum or even Ylilauta to expose your view.

  61. Mark

    Väinämöinen

    If I start talking warmly for immigration….will you talk nicely to me? 🙂

    You could start by not assuming that someone who disagrees with you is a) not in possession of any facts, b) devoid of logical reasoning, c) lacking a wider perspective, and d) being self-deceiving.

    Once you get off that high horse, I might start to feel a bit warmer and more fuzzy on the inside about discussing with you.

  62. Farang

    This is quite interesting:

    Toni: Yes. Police was asking how to identify illegal immigrants. Helena was thinking one solution. You try to protect criminals. Police protects them too.

    D4R: First it was s joke and now it is a suggestion to the police? whose lying?

    So, Toni says Helena was THINKING one solution. Then D4R somehow reads this as SUGGESTING. How stupid can someone be? It’s not that hard to read, if you can also write? I can’t understand the mental issues there might be to make person behave like this… Go figure…

  63. D4R

    Farang: So, Toni says Helena was THINKING one solution. Then D4R somehow reads this as SUGGESTING. How stupid can someone be? It’s not that hard to read, if you can also write? I can’t understand the mental issues there might be to make person behave like this… Go figure…

    Farang, i will complain to the room admin about you, i will not tolerate this kind of insults from you, if you can’t behave abd have a civilized discussion then please do not reply to me.

  64. Toni

    >Mark: “There is a reason it’s called Far Right – far from reality!”

    So far I have seen you been far from reality.. Like I told, you keep telling some groups are racists just because you think so…

    >D4R: “D4R: First it was s joke and now it is a suggestion to the police? whose lying?”

    It was a funny solution to a problem police has. It was funny because it can’t be done.

    >MT: “Toni, what is it that you want to prove?”

    That you tell lies here.

    D4R: “Toni: Every day some muslims suggest extermination of the Jews.
    Bring me the source and i will gladly tackle your claim ”

    You can lissten what they speak in mosks. There are some videos from them. And a lot of texts also in internet by former muslims.

    • Mark

      Toni

      So far I have seen you been far from reality.. Like I told, you keep telling some groups are racists just because you think so…

      I try to avoid talking about groups, unless it is a political party like PS, in which case it’s reasonably fair to talk about them as a group, though it’s also sensible to recognise that there is a lot of difference of opinion in that ‘group’ also.

      I cannot think of a single instance where I have referred to a group as being racist, but correct me if I’m wrong.

      Also, I’ve seen you reasoning about groups, Group A and Group JH. Oh dear oh dear oh dear! 😀

  65. Toni

    D4R: “Helenas case it’s different, she is well aware of her boss Nazi ideology.”

    Where can I read about his ideology?

  66. Toni

    >D4R: “ideology can be dangerous especially when someone in high office position have that type of ideology”

    I think it would be dangerous if someone has your ideology in high office position.

    I agree with many immigrants like Arman Alizad and many other who share his ideology. But then I don’t support immigrants like Abdillahi Farah Muhamed who want to exterminate all those who have made funny drawings of his god. I can only imagine what else violent acts he supports. I am afraid of them because there may be a lot of them here in the future…

    I think it would be dangerous if someone has his ideology in high office position. Don’t you?

  67. Mark

    Toni

    I agree with many immigrants like Arman Alizad and many other who share his ideology. But then I don’t support immigrants like Abdillahi Farah Muhamed who want to exterminate all those who have made funny drawings of his god.

    There are 55,000 Muslims in Finland, and yet you suggest two opinions that you think are representative? Hardly.

  68. Toni

    Lets imagine:

    We have a group A of people like Abdillahi Farah Muhamed, who want to exterminate all those who have made funny drawings of his god. They also see women without equal rights. Need a link to his interview?

    Then we have group JH like James Hirvisaari, who think group A people are not welcomed here for the reasons group A thinks and acts. Group JH hopes group A stays away from Finland.

    Now, by opposing group JH you must support group A?

    Lets’s think what else group A wants that you support. They think their god created Finland and all apes are just people (non muslims?) their god punished. They also plan their way of life will dominate mankind in the future.

    You oppose group JH and support group A??
    I just don’t understand why – unless you belong to group A.

    Or do you belong to goup MT who strongly opposes group JH and denies the existance of group A saying group JH are Natzis when they believe group A exists.

  69. Mark

    Toni

    Are you Farang by any chance, or did you just go to the same school of alphabet soup logic?

    We have a group A of people like Abdillahi Farah Muhamed, who want to exterminate all those who have made funny drawings of his god….Then we have a group JH like James Hirvisaari, who think group A people are not welcomed here for the reasons group A thinks and acts. Group JH hopes group A stays away from Finland.

    I know a lot of people that would not be happy to think of Hirvisaari as a group, and many people in PS who would likewise not be happy to be lumped into a group with Hirvisaair and Allah-oho.

    Also, this putting people in groups is exactly the problem. What is it that gets you into A’s group? That you happen to be a Muslim too? Do you really think that Islam is a single homegeneous entity where all Muslims share exactly the same values? Oh MY GOD! Are you in for a surprise if you ever take the blinkers off.

    So, by all means, let JH oppose individuals like A and I will have no problem at all with his stance.

    You oppose group JH and support group A??
    I just don’t understand why – unless you belong to group A.

    Or you belong to group A but don’t agree with A. Or you don’t belong to either group but still have an opinion.

    Or do you belong to goup MT who strongly opposes group JH and denies the existance of group A saying group JH are Natzis when they believe group A exists.

    Thank you Toni, for perfectly illustrating the nature of your hypocracy and also your fallacy in deciding that way to undertand these issues is to stick people in boxes on the basis of loose and arbitrary criteria that takes absolutely no account for the diversity found in the REAL world.

    Good luck with your boxes.

  70. Toni

    Mark: “There are 55,000 Muslims in Finland, and yet you suggest two opinions that you think are representative? Hardly.”

    I didn’t say all immigrants are like Azman or like Abdillahi. Many of them are “between” them supporting more the other. I said I am afraid people like Abdillahi (who want to kill people like me) and I believe there are many of them here (muslims and no-muslims). I don’t know how many but more every day. Them I don’t welcome here. All other foreigners are welcomed.

    Do you blame me not welcoming people like Abdillahi here? Do you blame me if I wish some people just went away so I feel safe?

    Do you see me as a racist? How do you see people like Abdillahi? Do you see Abdillahi has a right to kill me if you label me being a racist?

  71. Mark

    Toni

    I didn’t say all immigrants are like Azman or like Abdillahi. Many of them are “between” them supporting more the other.

    Okay. That’s good that you recognise that. Don’t jump to conclusions about what ordinary Muslims think. Also, remember that Muslim peoples are among the world’s poorest (ignoring the rich oil families of the Middle East) and so there is an element of ‘political solidarity’ among Muslims that can sometimes align moderates in some instances with extremists.

    I said I am afraid people like Abdillahi (who want to kill people like me) and I believe there are many of them here (muslims and no-muslims). I don’t know how many but more every day. Them I don’t welcome here. All other foreigners are welcomed.

    And there are equally people like Breivik too.

    Do you blame me not welcoming people like Abdillahi here? Do you blame me if I wish some people just went away so I feel safe?

    No, I don’t blame you at all. I think this comment of yours is absolutely at the heart of this debate, and I genuinely do not blame you for feeling that. Some of these extremists are spreading terror, fear, division and subversion. It is scary. And if it was a question of do we want these extremists setting up camp in our backyard, then I understand the opposition, I understand the fear, and I understand the desire, damn it, the right to feel safe!

    But, the response to extremism historically has often been another form of extremism. And that’s a mistake we should avoid at all costs. Look at the abuse of civil liberties taking place in America now, all in the name of ‘homeland security’. Look at Breivik’s extreme response to what he perceived as the invastion of Europe by Islam. Look at how previously ordinary Muslim men in the UK have been radicalised after hearing an endless account of the abuses and disproportionate responses of Israel to the Palestinian problem, where a whole nation is being held in effective internment. Yes, there are reasons, Isreali security being the obvious one, but also so many intransigent problems, and the one key factor that gets in the way of progress towards peace is a lack of trust. It completely defines the relationships, and it makes building a normal relationship damn near impossible.

    Once you lose trust or give it away, it’s very hard to get back.

    The answer to this fear of extremism is not to allow the debates to become deeply polarised, because this naturally pushes some elements further towards the extremes. We really all must learn to pull to the centre in this debate if we are to move any closer, even if we disagree, because we are all safer in the centre! That’s the plain simple truth in my view.

    The issue as far as Abdillahi is that you do your best to ensure that there is no fertile ground for his extremism to take root. If people are living happily, living fulfilling lives, taking part in their local communities and in the wider communities as equal citizens, then the breeding ground for extremism is much much smaller. THAT is the only coherent response, Toni. And not getting paranoid about shutting the door on our house and all the while destroying the equinamity INSIDE that house with cries of anti-jihad!

    Beware the slogans of war, because they have a power of their own to beguile and seduce the heroic hearts of men!

  72. Toni

    Mark: “Are you Farang by any chance, or did you just go to the same school of alphabet soup logic?”

    No, but I was a farang when I was on holiday in Asia. Can’t you see our IP?

    Mark: “I know a lot of people that would not be happy to think of Hirvisaari as a group, and many people in PS who would likewise not be happy to be lumped into a group with Hirvisaair and Allah-oho.”

    But can you tell me why these people don’t like Hirvisaari and others? Others like me?

    Mark. “What is it that gets you into A’s group? That you happen to be a Muslim too?”

    No. Read my previous msg. Group A wants to kill people in group JH. And many others too.

    Mark: “Do you really think that Islam is a single homegeneous entity where all Muslims share exactly the same values?”

    No. Read previous my msg.

    Mark: “let JH oppose individuals like A and I will have no problem at all with his stance.”

    But why do you have a problem with him and people like him? Why do you keep telling they are Natzi-like?

    Mark: “I cannot think of a single instance where I have referred to a group as being racist, but correct me if I’m wrong.”

    Ok, so acting Nazi-like is not acting racistic? You accuse Helena writing Natzi-style. You are linking her and group JH to Natzism. You write they are “as Nazi as it gets”
    Then you write: “There are racists in Finland” – I agree.
    And you continue: “However, to say there are no racists in PS is about as dumb as it gets.” – Here you say there are racists but you don’t say any names. We all know who you mean…

    And group-racism: “Whether PS is a racist party or not is not a question I’m going to bother trying to answer.” – you mean they are racists?

    Why? When they don’t want here people (like Abdillahi) who treathen to kill them?

    • Mark

      Toni

      But can you tell me why these people don’t like Hirvisaari and others? Others like me?

      I’m sure if you are listening to other supporters of PS you will hear the arguments for why Allah-oho and Hirvisaari are seen as liabilities.

      No. Read my previous msg. Group A wants to kill people in group JH. And many others too.

      Okay.

      But why do you have a problem with him and people like him? Why do you keep telling they are Natzi-like?

      Nazi-like isn’t the first word that comes to mind. Fundamentally I find the Nuiva vaalinmanifesti to be a proposal for a gross violation of the human rights of minorities in Finland. It starts by hiding behind the ‘falsified’ economic argument, and then goes on to advocate a curb on the civil liberties of immigrants and effective ‘ostracisation’ from the financing instruments of local and national government. As if that disenfranchisement wasn’t enough, it then goes on to turn immigration into single-issue debates based around relatively minor cultural differences that are unlikely to survive beyond the second generation of immigrants. They talk about equality and immediately fail to respect the notion of equity, a fundamental mainstay of modern democratic process and public services in Finland.

      This is not to say that the manifesto doesn’t bring up some issues that do need to be addressed – it’s just all the crap that they bring with it and the blinkered perspective where some problems come to define the entire immigration debate. The idea of conditional citizenship, where an immigrant to Finland would effectively live in a state of insecurity for 15 years or more is inhumane. The manifesto is an expression of bitterness and prejudice, and not an objective consideration of the issues of immigration.

      The authors defend this bitterness on the premise that ‘no-one can criticize immigration these days’, which is a crock of shit. Nothing justifies such a blinkered, one-sided and prejudiced approach to the immigration debate. They lose the right to debate the issues for the simple fact that they try to make suspicion and dedradation of foreigners the norm, by trying to completely rewrite the entire human rights framework upon which modern Finland is built.

      Of course, with a popular political mandate, they force themselves into the debate, and that is a very sad, because I cannot see an objective, dignified or fair debate taking place when there are fascists like that sitting at the table. He’s a fascist for belonging to Suomen Sisu, which I have NO DOUBT is a modern day fascist organisation, in tone and in tactics.

      What has it been called – the gentle hatred!!!!

  73. BlandaUpp

    Toni

    You state: “We have a group A of people like Abdillahi Farah Muhamed, who want to exterminate all those who have made funny drawings of his god. They also see women without equal rights.”

    Do you know Israel just banned a German poet for writing a poem? Where is the international outrage about this?

    In Israel Orthodox Jews are no different to Orthodox Muslims: “Jerusalem’s Jewish Taliban want women to refrain from singing in public”

    “Yakov Halperin, a religious member of Jerusalem’s City Council, said:

    The voice of a woman can be fine … the problem we have is with women singing and men hearing their singing. The rabbis say we should avoid any contagion.

    An attempt to ban women singing in public came after a few extremist Rabbis declared it too sexual for men to hear.”

    “In religious areas of the city there are growing incidents of self-imposed “separation” of the sexes, despite laws banning segregation.

    Frequently women sit at the back of buses, have separate entrances in some shops and different hours at medical facilities.”

    http://freethinker.co.uk/2011/12/18/silence-jerusalems-jewish-taliban-want-women-to-refrain-from-singing-in-public/

    Have you heard of the Taliban women movement in Israel?

    “Newly-religious women walking around covered head-to-toe in black clothes are growing in numbers. Even six-year-old girls are made to hide their faces. ”

    “The ultra-Orthodox “Jewish Taliban” cult is one of the most extreme groups ever established in Israel. Established over six years ago, when haredi women tried to fight immodesty in Israel, the group’s members decided to wear a robe covering their bodies from the shoulders down.”

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4021877,00.html

    http://haaretz.tumblr.com/post/19135075747/the-secrets-of-a-controversial-ultra-orthodox-community

    “All the females of the community, starting from age three, are covered from head to foot in a type of long black robe. A black scarf covers their heads. Only their faces, from forehead to chin, are exposed. In Israel, this burka-esque attire has earned them the moniker “Taliban women.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/pure-as-the-driven-snow-or-hearts-of-darkness-1.417553

    Do you have a problem with all religions that oppress women or just Muslims?

  74. Toni

    >BlandaUpp: “Do you have a problem with all religions that oppress women or just Muslims?”

    What do you think my “problem” is?
    Read my previos messages and you find the answer.

    I am against all people and groups who tell people like me are not equal or people like me must be killed, no matter what is their religion.

    I am not afraid of my security if some people in Israeli are covering girls with clothes. When they start talking about killing me then I start worrying about them… untill that I just comment that I don’t like their plans you described in you msg.

    • Migrant Tales

      –I am against all people and groups who tell people like me are not equal or people like me must be killed, no matter what is their religion.

      Toni, are you shedding crocodile tears or is this argument only a pretext to attack a certain group of people? The most extremist anti-immigration used this very argument: “Muslim women of the world we have come to your rescue so we will tear off your clothes and force you to be western.”

      This as you know is a load of baloney. Are you really interested in equality or using such an argument to further your anti-immigration agenda? I have to state the latter.

      Don’t forget that in our society we can make choices and those lifestyle choices are personal and our business. Or is the case that white Finns in our case have the right to make lifestyle choices but immigrants and visible minorities don’t have this right?

  75. Toni

    Mark: “Don’t jump to conclusions about what ordinary Muslims think.”

    Don’t you jump to wrong conclusion about what I (or others like me) think of ordinary Muslims. And by ordinary I mean Muslims who don’t want to kill me, who accept our laws and who don’t call me a racist if I tell I don’t won’t some other foreigners here.

    Rest of your msg I agree, allmost. We should concentrate on how the problem can be solved. How I and others like me can feel safe in Finland.

    But the answer is not to blame Hirvisaari and others being racists when they try to show why we are afraid… I don’t understand you, Matt and MT to blame us being racists when there is a clear and every day growing threat to be afraid. You may feel safe, but we don’t. I feel you blame us being afraid… and that is cruel!

    • Mark

      Toni

      And by ordinary I mean Muslims who don’t want to kill me, who accept our laws and who don’t call me a racist if I tell I don’t won’t some other foreigners here.

      I see. So if you say you don’t want them here and they happen to take that personally, they are no longer ‘ordinary Muslims’? Whatever!!!!

      But the answer is not to blame Hirvisaari and others being racists when they try to show why we are afraid…

      There are many ways to articulate fear and to respond to it. The politicians have been lazy, no question, but also following a strategy that has been in use in Europe for nearly 7 decades. But times change. AT the same time, politicians are NOT really the ones to take this debate forward, for all sorts of reasons, but the main one being that potentially vote-profiting from grievance is not exactly getting us off to a good start. It doesn’t motivate politicans to be objective, fair or even honest.

      This is a debate that needs to be had in the wider society.

      You may feel safe, but we don’t. I feel you blame us being afraid… and that is cruel!

      I don’t feel safe. Not in the wider context. The world is in a dangerous place right now, for lots of reasons. But the answer, the thing that will take us forward has to be some kind of ‘win-win’, otherwise, we cannot make the leap to the next level of social organisation. Likewise, we cannot continue as before, as warring nations going through periods of domination, subjugation and all out destruction and pillage. The weapons are too powerful, security is too fragile, and the Earth cannot take this kind of ‘childishness’ any longer.

      I don’t blame you for being afraid. It is scary. Bombs going off, people calling for war – mistrust following your gaze as diversity becomes a symbol of division. But it is up to us to understand where the enemy is and how to fight it. The vast majority of ALL people want peace, but they also want respect and equality. Many things in the world today, especially in regards to the West’s relationship to developing and Islamic countries does not amount to equality, and that is going to be a breeding ground for more radicalisation.

      To make use of the majority sentiment for peace, we have to work together to protect those principles we all hold dear. That also means being prepared to accept that there are other equally valid approaches than our own to the issues of society, including justice, education, freedom of religion, and cultural expression.

      The human rights approach is the only one that will unite us as a planet. Anything that works against that is taking us backwards. That’s my view. And I mean also those that undermine the rights of women and children, regardless if it’s in developing countries, or those in the West undermining the rights of immigrant minorities.

  76. Toni

    MT: “Toni, are you shedding crocodile tears or is this argument only a pretext to attack a certain group of people?”

    What do you think? You don’t seem to understand at all… you just label us racists and nothing changes that. You don’t want to understand. You have made up your mind.

    MT: “Are you really interested in equality or using such an argument to further your anti-immigration agenda? I have to state the latter. ”

    I have no anti-immigration agenda. Don’t you read my msgs?

    MT: “Don’t forget that in our society we can make choices and those lifestyle choices are personal and our business. Or is the case that white Finns in our case have the right to make lifestyle choices but immigrants and visible minorities don’t have this right?”

    I don’t understand the question. I don’t want here people who threaten to kill me. Others are welcomed. This is like 10th time I write this…

    Everyone has a right of their lifestyle, but that lifestyle must be according to our laws. If they don’t like to obey our laws they are not welcomed. They can ask us if we change our laws, but if we don’t want to don’t force us. Don’t treathen us.

  77. Toni

    Mark: “Fundamentally I find the Nuiva vaalinmanifesti to be a proposal for a gross violation of the human rights of minorities in Finland.”

    What minorities or all minorities? How it violates rights of (some) minorities? Sorry, I didn’t understand your explanation. I am not that good with so nice words you use…

    “The manifesto is an expression of bitterness..”

    I just explaned why..

    “The authors defend this bitterness on the premise that ‘no-one can criticize immigration these days’, which is a crock of shit.”

    No shit. This was actually very true 3-4 years ago when I started to write about my opinions. A lot of shit came immediately, removed messages and deleted conversations. It was really hard to discuss about these problems. Lot’s of death wishes were posted.

    I think I am a little facist. I see nothing wrong with that. But I still think you should not call me a natzi like or a racist if I am little facist and don’t want some people here.

    • Migrant Tales

      –What minorities or all minorities? How it violates rights of (some) minorities? Sorry, I didn’t understand your explanation. I am not that good with so nice words you use…

      The Nuiva Manifesto is only a political statement of how an anti-immigration group WANTS immigrants to integrate to Finland. That integration model they seek is assimilation, or one-way integration. In Finland the official policy is two-way integration. Moreover, the Nuiva Manifesto crowd wants only white German-looking immigrants to Finland. They claim opposition to multiculturalism, which means for them an immigration policy that permits too many Muslims and Africans from moving to our country.

  78. Mark

    Toni

    I will not call you Nazi or racist, if you are happy to be a little bit fascist. But if you start to simplify the issues by thinking about these issues only in terms of who fits to what box, then I will point out the connection to racist thinking.

  79. Mark

    Toni

    No shit. This was actually very true 3-4 years ago when I started to write about my opinions. A lot of shit came immediately, removed messages and deleted conversations. It was really hard to discuss about these problems. Lot’s of death wishes were posted.

    Okay. I can understand this. I think a lot of people are too quick to jump to conclusions. The problem is that the debate starts to happen ‘between teams’, and really ‘teams’ is half the fucking problem in the first place – “the ref was blind! Come on, that was a penalty, no question! Did you see that tackle, that was a red card ref!!” While it’s fun and provides solidarity at the end of the day, it’s not the best approach to objectivety.

    Politics cannot be a sport, but then again it is. When social issues become political issues and then a sporting contest, the people who lose out tend to be the ones most affected. It just takes much longer to get at the truth, because everyone’s got so much invested in it.

    I will write about Halla-oho and his trial and defence probably this weekend, and maybe an article on Suomen Sisu. I cannot speak from direct experience of these groups or issues, because they are relatively new to me. But I can see a lot to comment on in regard to the written manifestos and defence of Halla-oho. For today, I now have to concentrate more on other things.

  80. Toni

    MT: “The Nuiva Manifesto is only a political statement of how an anti-immigration group WANTS immigrants to integrate to Finland.”

    And that is a bad (=racistic) thing why?
    Many other parties have their suggestions on how it should be done. Many of them agree with Nuiva (Kokoomus and Zyskowicz, Vihreät and Soininvaara, etc.).

    MT: “That integration model they seek is assimilation, or one-way integration”

    ?? Why assimilation is bad? Isn’t that what all “kukkahattutädit” are talking about?
    What is one-way-integration and two-way?

    MT: “Moreover, the Nuiva Manifesto crowd wants only white German-looking immigrants to Finland”

    That is what you believe. Sad. You are so locked on your beliefs…

    MT: “which means for them an immigration policy that permits too many Muslims and Africans from moving to our country.”

    Too many is too many – no mater where they come from. Especially when we have too many who want to kill us…

    Mark: “I will write about Halla-oho and his trial and defence probably this weekend, and maybe an article on Suomen Sisu.”

    Where do you publish them? I’d love to read… I hope you see some of my points now?
    How many similar groups we have like Sisu, but organized by Muslims?

  81. Toni

    Mark: “But if you start to simplify the issues by thinking about these issues only in terms of who fits to what box, then I will point out the connection to racist thinking.”

    I don’t want into same box with people who say they will kill me. I want them to stay in another box!
    And that makes me a racist??
    🙁

    • Mark

      Toni

      I don’t want into same box with people who say they will kill me. I want them to stay in another box!
      And that makes me a racist?? 🙁

      Slow down. If someone in this box want to put you in a box, then you can tell the police and they will likely put them in a box with bars on the window.

  82. BlandaUpp

    Toni

    You have an acute double affliction of both Immigration Obsession Disorder (IOD) and Muslim Obsession Disorder (MOD)”immigrants! immigrants!” “muslims! muslims!” is your only reaction to everything.

    There’s more for you to fear from an Anders Breivik type of nut who wants to kill people that he doesn’t agree with politically, ESPECIALLY in a country like ours with such high murder-suicide rates.



    You should care more about the economy and less about immigrants (who don’t even exist) or it may very well be too late for you.

    This MUSLIM-bug is blocking some of your brain functions. 

No matter what we tell you, your only response will be “hurr MUSLIMS”. 

Listen: It doesn’t matter. Now stop thinking about it and help reform our deteriorating post-Nokia economy.

    Our country’s army is made up of people of several races, ethnic and religious backgrounds.

    We had Muslims and Jews fighting on our side in WWII FFS!!!

    If we go to war tomorrow Finns of all colours will fight to defend this country. What don’t you understand about this????:
    http://oi51.tinypic.com/1zx2rue.jpg
    http://oi53.tinypic.com/29elzjn.jpg

  83. Toni

    No, I want to stay in my box with a people not trying to kill me.
    Like I said: Most people like to be in a box (every now and then), it feels safe. That is why we lock doors, close windows and build fences… Sometimes even that is not enough and someone violates our box.

  84. Toni

    BU: “You have an acute double affliction of both Immigration Obsession Disorder (IOD) and Muslim Obsession Disorder (MOD)”immigrants! immigrants!” “muslims! muslims!” is your only reaction to everything.”

    Even I have many muslims as a “friend”. Even few in FB. Like I said, I have no problems with those immigrants or any Finns who are friendly.
    Your reaction seems to be: racist, racist!

    BU: “There’s more for you to fear from an Anders Breivik type of nut who wants to kill people that he doesn’t agree with politically,”

    That is not true. Sorry. The part I removed was true.

    BU: “You should care more about the economy and less about immigrants (who don’t even exist) or it may very well be too late for you.”

    That is your opinion, not a fact.

    BU: “No matter what we tell you, your only response will be “hurr MUSLIMS”. ”

    Now you are funny. Or then you don’t really read my msgs.

    BU: “Our country’s army is made up of people of several races, ethnic and religious backgrounds.”

    Yes.

    BU: “If we go to war tomorrow Finns of all colours will fight to defend this country. What don’t you understand about this????:”

    Yes.

  85. justicedemon

    Väinämöinen

    Explain your remark. Why does that picture mean that BU is either a woman or gay?

    What can you see in the picture that the rest of us can not?

    Don’t be bashful – explain yourself!

  86. Väinämöinen

    justicedemon 🙂

    if you post a picture with semi-naked men, you are either either one. Unless you have a better explanation.

  87. Toni

    jd: “BlandaUpp was very clearly illustrating a point about ethnic diversity in the Finnish armed forces. There were two such images.”

    But he/she posted it to me. I don’t understand why. I have nothing against diversity.
    Many of us have German genes, Swedish genes, Russian genes and many others too.
    Can you tell me who is opposing ethnic diversity?

    Well, the covernment is, they have departments for saving Saame, Karjala, etc.

    Did jd try to explane that when some immigrants want to kill me but some don’t, so I just have to prepare to be killed and accept my faith?

    Mark, you didn’t answer me where your texts (about Sisu) will be published?

  88. Mark

    Toni

    I will publish them here. Don’t get your hopes up though, we haven’t exactly see ‘eye to eye’ so far. 🙂 But I will try to be fair to the man and the topics.

  89. Väinämöinen

    justicedemon

    ”BlandaUpp was very clearly illustrating a point about ethnic diversity in the Finnish armed forces. There were two such images”

    what is your point?

    BlandaUpp is gay. Now I said it.

  90. justicedemon

    Väinämöinen

    BlandaUpp is gay. Now I said it.

    This is obviously some major revelation that you think you are sharing, but where is your evidence?

    And even if this disclosure turns out to be true, what makes it your disclosure to make?

    You have some repressed issues there – quite obviously.

    • Mark

      Väinämöinen

      Why are you going on about gays? WTF? It was just a funny picture. Nothing gay about it. Are you Finnish? Doesn’t sound like it. Finns got no problem with nudity!

  91. Elven archer

    http://areena-beta.yle.fi/ng/areena/tv/1485495

    There she is. I hope D4R doesn’t lose his sleep because of this smiling sympathetic lovely young woman… um… I mean a hardcore right-winger fascist (did I get it right?) 😀 If someone doesn’t understand this whole thing after seeing her talk in the program, then I suggest to that someone that don’t ever read, hear or see anything because you very likely lack the skills needed to understand it.

    The discussion in A-Studio clearly shows how ridiculous this whole mess is. Helena has done nothing wrong. Nothing. But like that grave comedian (really? remember me not to go to his shows ever!) illustrated by example it’s all about serious people getting too serious. There was malice in the news about the blog and there is malice in insisting to accuse Helena for who knows what after the truth came out. Even now some people can’t accept that the burgers were not serious talk. I don’t think we have that many *that* stupid people in the land so there must be an intention to get it all wrong.

    I challenge you to watch the show. If somebody still fears Helena after that then that somebody doesn’t even have a half a brain.

  92. justicedemon

    Väinämöinen

    You introduced the subject of male homosexuality. This was your perception and yours alone.

    And you are obviously now very embarrassed because that perception has revealed something in your own pysche that you prefer to keep hidden. Not quite the immature jibe that you intended, eh?

    How did you put the matter?

    “Now I said it”

    Like a release of pent-up energy there. Very telling.

    You’d better bury it again fast. Before anyone starts to suspect …

    How’s your mother?

  93. justicedemon

    Elf

    So you think that someone who is smiling, sympathetic, lovely, young, female etc. etc. cannot express fascist views?

    How shallow is that?

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Skj4mSy-QI&w=594&h=365]

    It’s interesting that you are on first name terms with “Helena“, but not with “Hakkarainen“, “Halla-aho” or “Breivik“.

  94. Elven archer

    “So you think that someone who is smiling, sympathetic, lovely, young, female etc. etc. cannot express fascist views?”

    Yes, that was exactly my point. You could also hear her words and just see her character and what she is all about but why bother. I settle for smiling and pretty.

    “It’s interesting that you are on first name terms with “Helena“, but not with “Hakkarainen“, “Halla-aho” or “Breivik“.”

    It’s interesting you find that interesting (not really).

  95. Elven archer

    I see you, justicedemon, are still busy trying to figure out those measurement errors (the concept and their effect to the results), so you obviously have not had time to watch the show. Well, maybe next week? Not all can be good at science.

  96. D4R

    Elven: I see you, justicedemon, are still busy trying to figure out those measurement errors (the concept and their effect to the results), so you obviously have not had time to watch the show. Well, maybe next week? Not all can be good at science.

    You really don’t make any sense do you?

  97. D4R

    Elven archer: There she is. I hope D4R doesn’t lose his sleep because of this smiling sympathetic lovely young woman… um… I mean a hardcore right-winger fascist (did I get it right?) If someone doesn’t understand this whole thing after seeing her talk in the program, then I suggest to that someone that don’t ever read, hear or see anything because you very likely lack the skills needed to understand it.

    The discussion in A-Studio clearly shows how ridiculous this whole mess is. Helena has done nothing wrong. Nothing. But like that grave comedian (really? remember me not to go to his shows ever!) illustrated by example it’s all about serious people getting too serious. There was malice in the news about the blog and there is malice in insisting to accuse Helena for who knows what after the truth came out. Even now some people can’t accept that the burgers were not serious talk. I don’t think we have that many *that* stupid people in the land so there must be an intention to get it all wrong.

    I challenge you to watch the show. If somebody still fears Helena after that then that somebody doesn’t even have a half a brain.

    Or maybe your understanding differs from the rest of us. You can say whatever you want to say about Helena if she’s a fascist or not, but the blog she writes and the people she associetes with is a full blown fascism, we don’t really need to come to you to know about Helena of who she really is, just by going to her blog or checking her bosses background says it all, so please Elvin artur, cut the horse crap man, i find it realy amusing that nowadays racist and fascists do not really think they’re racist and fascist, they think they on some important mission, or that they’re serving all people for goodness, they’re blinded with their racism and fascism.

  98. Väinämöinen

    justicedemon

    for me homosexuality is not a problem as long as they do not come too close. Apparently you also have gay appeal.

    I doubt you have the ability to analyse people by their mental health, but hey who knows. Since you want to see victims in your view, why do not you sign up for theater school?

  99. eyeopener

    Hi Väinämöinen.

    It makes also clear that gays don’t even want to take notice you. As so many other persons have neglected you. How your MA??

    Your schooling seems to be elementary level and maybe you did some manual studies or training. Designing arm-sleeves I guess 🙂 Your writing abilities have not been very impressive, were they??

    Hi Elf. Strongly in love with the Mistress??

    Especially the people with half-brain sections should be very worried about Helena. Smiling “killing you off”. She could have been Dr. Mengele’s PR chef in distorting reality. She absolutely good at it. Especially for you guys who are hungering and sliming to see her face.

    There is a species for that: “Black Widow”. Take care: males get eaten!!

    Not very convincing as an argument don’t you think so.

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