Our Finnish national identity in the new century

by , under Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

Glancing through a pile of documents and certificates my late grandfather (1892-1979) had is like entering a time machine. Two certificates catch my attention: a Finnish-language test in 1925 and another one when he changed his surname from Hantwargh to Harvo.  Both documents offer us a glimpse of how a social construct like Finnish national identity was forged in the last century.

Taking into account how some Finns define it today an ever- globalized world, it’s easy to see that their definition of a Finn has its roots in those two documents.

Being a Finn had little to do with your place of birth but is due to jus sanguinis, right of blood. Your citizenship is not determined by place of birth but by having one or both parents as citizens of that country.

The first document proving that my grandfather spoke perfect Finnish is understandable in the jus sanguinis context. The second one, which was from 1931, states at the following:

In light of the petition made by military instructor Harald Vilhelm Handtwargh, the governor of the province of Mikkeli grants his family permission to change their  surname to Harvo; this is backed by statements from the vicar [of the Lutheran church], Suomen Sukutukimusseura [Finnish Genealogical Society] and the Suomalaisuuden Liitto [Association of Finnish Culture and Identity]…

Taking on a new national identity was relatively  easy in the last century as long as you were white, nationalistic and didn’t make too public your foreign roots. In the case of my grandfather it was his Jewish background.

Today there are totally new demands placed on our society with respect to inclusion and “us.”  How we included and excluded people and groups in the last century is, I believe, what is causing us to fall flat on our faces and hindering us from seeing the bigger picture of what Finnish identity is in the new century.

Since we are a young nation with a young identity there is time to make it more inclusive. But for that change to happen it requires us to see the world in a radically different way than today.  A good example is some of our feelings towards the Russians and that fear of being a small nation constantly under threat.

It’s clear that in order to build a more inclusive and culturally dynamic society, we have to break away from our past hatreds, prejudices and myths.

But let’s not fool ourselves, breaking free from them will be a long process that will take a concerted effort and generations.

This document gave my grandfather the right to change his surname from Handtwargh to Harvo in 1931. 

One good way to become a more inclusive society today would be to change Section 5 of the Constitution from jus sanguinis to jus solis, right of the soil, nationality or citizenship granted to a person born in country.

The whole idea of jus sanguinis is deeply rooted in how ethnicity and nationality were defined in the nineteenth and greater part of the twentieth century.

While I am happy that Finland is an independent country today, we cannot escape the fact that it was built on nationalism and racism that was ever-present in Europe before and even today.  Thus our independence was in many respects an ethnic thing. We didn’t like the Russians never mind Russification.

The racism and nationalism that existed in Europe in the nineteenth century had a clear role: It justified the colonization and exploitation of other people in Africa and Asia. It was very ethnocentric as well. We thought that we were the epitome of civilization and therefore it was our right to  exploit others because they were less “advanced.”

As we know, World War I exposed the barbarism of our “civilized ways” and was pretty good reality check.

Hopefully our culturally diverse identity will not resemble an excerpt from Heikki Waris’ “An introduction to Finnish history” on page two:

“A fourth aspect is the high degree of homogeneity of Finnish society. Racial homogeneity particularly characterizes the Finnish people who have practically no racial minorities, the less than three thousand Lapps in the northernmost arctic communities making up the largest racial minority group. Consequently, racial prejudice and discrimination are nonexistent.”

Apart from avoiding mention of the Roma of Finland and Finnish expats and those with international backgrounds, Waris’ affirmation are quite humorous from today’s perspective.

  1. I am

    Good morning MT, My example is about racist law> U R a foreigner and U were trying alot on Finnish language for many reasons, like work,…, also for ur Finnish citizenship, and so U did pass YK testi, but now U cant have your citizenship because its only 4 years ( its only 4 years for immigration office but for U can be a century ) that U R living here
    and U should wait one year more but if U marry a Finnish one U can have it, u can go to immigration office and apply for it and pay a great money to them, so it is a racist law, I am not saying marriage with a Finnish person is bad, also am not saying is good, people are different , foreigners are different also, i have respect for u Finns, foreigners, and all but i am saying

    Whats different between a foreigner and a Finn??? we r all human beings
    What if a foreigner wants to be single????
    And many other whats??????????
    Have u never been in immigration police in Helsinki???? U should spend ur whole day there, also there r other problems
    Thanks to u MT

  2. Sasu

    I am Mikä on sinun ratkaisu rasismi ongelmaan. Oletko Marti Luther King vai Malcolm X
    http://nemoo.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/kamppailu-rasismia-vastaan-on-usein-kaksisuuntaista/

    Minä itse en usko intergoitumiseen tai hyväsynnän essimiseen.

    Tuo sinun rasismi esitys on hyvä osoitus miten rakenteellinen rasismi on yhteiskunnan elimissä eikä yksilöissä. En usko yhdenkään ihmisen tossa prosessissa olevan äärirasisteja ,mutta systeemi itsestään on rasistinen jolloin sillä ei ole mitään väliä kuka on takana

  3. justicedemon

    Ricky

    That’s an interesting document in its own right, but I’m not so sure that it has much to do with the jus soli/jus sanguinis policy divide.

    What I do notice is that family names were already treated like trademarks in those days. This is hardly surprising, as entire communities were often engaged in essentially the same collective industry (generally a farm) and often shared a family name that was more indicative of this community membership than of biological ancestry. It is no accident that the process illustrated in that document closely resembles the process of trade mark registration. Your grandfather was effectively requesting the right to engage in economic activity under that name, and any community already using that name would be entitled to be advised of the request and of its right to contest that request.

    This brings to mind the much discussed Homer’s Bar case that was settled in the Finnish Supreme Court about 15 years ago (KKO 1997:150). Essentially a suburban pub was forced to change its name because that name resembled a Finnish family name.

    The rule prohibiting the use of family names as trade marks in Finland brought a small windfall to a Filipino immigrant friend of mine a few years back when a large Spanish wine distributor opened a branch in Finland. My friend agreed to allow the company to use her surname in return for a small royalty.

    Both jus soli and jus sanguinis policies have benefits and drawbacks, and Finland is one of the majority of countries that apply a hybrid approach. A foundling is assumed to be Finnish unless shown otherwise, as are the children born in Finland to stateless persons and to refugees who would otherwise have to turn to the government of their country of citizenship in order to procure citizenship for the child. Foreign children under 12 years of age who are adopted by a Finnish guardian become Finnish citizens from the date when the adoption is recognised in Finland. There are also simple declaration procedures for young adult foreigners who have been domiciled in Finland since early childhood.

    One important objective of nationality legislation in Finland since the interwar period has been to avoid situations in which dual nationality is acquired accidentally or in which Finnish nationality acquired automatically at birth becomes an obstacle to acquiring foreign, and particularly US citizenship. This is a consequence of large scale emigration from Finland and the desire to avoid the needless bureaucracy of discharging the children and grandchildren of emigré Finns from effectively meaningless citizenship ties to a country to which they have no material connection.

  4. I am

    Sasu, system is racist and thats true yeah true.
    To all
    We foreigner have different experiences about racist here,
    My other example is about social office service that they call it social welfare office but it was social stress office , because was BARBARIC and did punish me barbaric. and soooo hard.
    Offcourse they cant punish a Finnish person like that, but again i was foreigner, they punished me.
    If u go to social office and obey them deeply then u r good, but if u say sorry am not ur slave then u r not a good cilent .
    No doubt that it depends to ur chance and ur social worker, but if u are a Finn or a foreigner and u have a hard experience about them,
    Here please, u r welcome, share it IF u like and IFu want.
    Best to all

  5. Sirpa

    Good comment, justicedemon! There was a very strong period of national romanticism (painters, composers, writers) from 1890s to 1920s, turning to pure nationalism in the 30s. Changing surnames was not limited to people of foreign origin, the majority were changing a Swedish name or Swedish-sounding name. It is hard to know the reason for changing names: I have relatives who changed the name Kruusi – that sounds pretty Finnish to me. Maybe your grandfather got tired of people not spelling his name right. At least he did it on his own will, not what happened at Ellis Island to so many who got a new name when entering the U.S.

  6. D4R

    According to a survey of Finns living abroad, the country’s reputation has declined internationally within the past year.

    Expatriates polled by the daily Helsingin Sanomat said that Finland has gained a reputation as an intolerant and even racist country.

    Respondents attributed the change to the Finns Party’s rise in popularity and xenophobic comments by its members.

    Overseas Finns were asked what the focus of the president’s foreign policy should be.

    The main concern cited by respondents was advancing human rights worldwide. The other most-mentioned goals were promoting Finnish exports, fighting climate change and peace mediation in international conflicts.

    The newspaper polled 1126 Finns in 78 countries for the survey.

  7. Elven archer

    “According to a survey of Finns living abroad, the country’s reputation has declined internationally within the past year. ”

    Well, the mission accomplished then? Good work, guys! 😉

    You could also have mentioned that the poll was only for the people in HS email list of willing participants who are readers of BS, I mean HS. So it’s hardly a random sample or a good sample. And it was their interpretation, not the actual views of the people in those countries. I really don’t think many foreigner have an opinition at all about some arctic country’s todays politics. You could argue that the participant’s reading of HS could have something to do with that image they have about how the things are…

    But I won’t. I won’t mind. It’s actually good or even great news. It may discourage some gold diggers to come here. I’m glad we are both happy about this kind of marketing. That’s why I cheer for you guys! Keep up the good work!

    • Migrant Tales

      –Elven archer is correct. It’s people like Enrique who causes the bad reputation.

      Yes, Migrant Tales has caused all this. We just make up stories… Hint? Check the sources where these stories are coming from.

      The suggestion that Ruohonen-Lerner should be sacked is now being discussed heatedly on Hommaforum.

  8. Mark

    Farang

    Elven archer is correct. It’s people like Enrique who causes the bad reputation.

    I see, and Eleven’s comment about detering ‘gold-digging’ immigrants does not in any way justify the reputation of some Finns to be negative towards immigrants?

  9. Mark

    Eleven

    But I won’t. I won’t mind. It’s actually good or even great news.

    And that’s why you visit us regularly to lambast us for talking about racism in Finland. Yeah, right, pull the other one!

  10. Elven archer

    “And that’s why you visit us regularly to lambast us for talking about racism in Finland. Yeah, right, pull the other one!”

    What can I say? My glass is half full. I see the silver lining. I would prefer the truth, but it’s clearly not going to happen so I take what is given and deal with it. What does “lambast” mean?

    “Yes, Migrant Tales has caused all this. We just make up stories…”

    Exatcly my thoughts but making up is so ugly consept, you innovate stories. You take something and twist and bend it until it’s a whole new story. Your writing is creative.

  11. Elven archer

    “I see, and Eleven’s comment about detering ‘gold-digging’ immigrants does not in any way justify the reputation of some Finns to be negative towards immigrants?”

    Glad to see you are not generalizing. It’s good that you are not one of those people who say that do as I say and not like I do.

    • Mark

      Eleven

      I think ‘some Finns’ adequately covers the grouping without generalising too much.

      What have you and Farang been doing together, writing a bullet list of accusations, with generalisation and racist top of the list?

      So what is it then, is the first person to use the words fifty times getting a case of beer bought by the other person?

  12. Elven archer

    “I think ‘some Finns’ adequately covers the grouping without generalising too much.”

    Of course you do. I have no trouble believing you do. This blog is about that.

    Have you ever concidered the probability of me joking earlier? It could explain the contradiction you seemed to notice in my doing here…?

    But don’t get sidetracked. Jokes aside, my point was very valid. You write in English and with very bitter attitude extremely biased stories about Finland and the Finns. You are happy to read that the Finland’s repusation may have suffered because it fits perfectly to your own views. To you it’s a proof that you are right in your stories. And you write more stories to get more of that image abroad which would be more proof to you. It’s like a hamster wheel. Very clever but it doesn’t really get you anywhere, doesn’t it? It actually hurts your cause and that I was joking about… or did I? 😉

    Of course you are not the BBC, which by the way reported that PS wants the Finnish young women to “give birth to pure Finnish children” which is “like a faint echo of Nazi ideology”. Oookaayy…. so there’s the image and there’s the reality. No, you are not the BBC, you are a lot smaller. Even this comparision in size is funny but you get the point, maybe.

    “What have you and Farang been doing together, writing a bullet list of accusations, with generalisation and racist top of the list?”

    What I’ve been doing is reading a book (AD&D related, on which Wisconsin’s Waupun prison instituted a ban arguing that it promoted gang-related activity…. ooooh, I’m so wicked) and listening music.

    Next on my playlist is Paranoid. It’s a good song, have you ever heard?

    • Mark

      Elvin

      So if you know this blog is about clearly identifying racism a a problem of only some Finns, why do you persist in trying to present us as doing something else. You know full well what this blog is doing. It’s giving a rare voice to the immigrant’s perspective on immigration and on the rise of a far right party in Finland. Of course you are not one bit interested in listening to people’s opinions because you are so insecure about Finland’s reputation.

      I on the other hand realise that Finland has a mixed reputation, understandably, like most countries. Your black and white thinking and presentation of the issues will never do justice to the situation in Finland or the issues under discussion. You come here not to discuss, but with a very clear agenda to smear and ridicule. How you imagine that anyone other than your Hommaforum buddies is going to take you seriously is beyond me.

    • Mark

      Elvin

      Show me a single article i have written in this blog where i have been bitter and had an extremely negative attitudes to Finns. If anything, my approach is not centred on Finns, but rather on universal attitudes of bigotry.

  13. Mary Mekko

    Enrique, you know full well that Jews throughout the Western nations have always changed their last names in order to avoid being recognized as Jews. They were not all forced at Ellis Island, simply chose to do so later to make assimilation easier in an English-speaking country.
    A classic case is John Kerry, whose grandfather in Austria was Fritz Cohen. He decided to have the family christened in a church and chose the name “Kerry” at random from a map of Ireland. Any real Irish person can recognize immediately that it is not a true Irish name, but rather a place name, much as many of the German and Polish Jewish last names are from the places of origin, such as Berliner, Prager, or like John Denver, Deutschlander. Sarah Palin’s grandparents were both Lithuanian Jews, both converting to Christianity in the USA.

    The name “Harald Vilhelm Hantwargh” does not sound Jewish, rather, it sounds very German, and there may have been reasons he did not want to appear to be a German in 1931. I didn’t know that Finland was particularly anti-jewish, but I would say that in the 1930’s religion still mattered as compared to today, when most Finns do not attend a church.

    Generally speaking, changing one’s last name doesn’t have the best respectability about it, and it fouls up the future generations from knowing their true roots, as in your muddled case. But nonetheless, if you think you’re a Finn, work and live in Finland, speak Finnish, etc. etc. I suppose that makes you a Finn in any case.

    Incidentally, I find that the word “finn” or “finland” has high markings about the San Francisco Bay Area. It is known to be a very beautiful, clean, high-performing country without great social problems (yet), something for us multikultiKalifornians to envy. The only bad thing it’s generally known for is the heavy drinking, esp. by their men. Also, the silence, the reticence, makes us Yanks nervous.

  14. Sasu

    D4R Mitä ihmeen väliä on Suomen maineella. Itse pidän tätä Haaviston ja muiden ihmisten maine kysymystä harhaan johtavana. Selviytyminen on minusta tärkeämpi, kuin suomen maine.

    Onko meidät lytätty pelkäksi maine kysymyksessi. Silloinhan Suomi voi hoitaa asian samalla tavalla kuin Britannia tai Yhdysvallat. Heitetään kaikki jonnetkin ghettoo, jotta ovat pois silmistä ja sitten nostetaan pari Jani Toivolaa edustamaan kaikkia Suomen värillisiä, jotta näyttäisi siltä että kaikki menee hyvin. Jos ongelma ei ole silmissä, ei se silloin vaikuta mitenkään maineeseen.

  15. Sasu

    Elven archer is correct. It’s people like Enrique who causes the bad reputation. Farang

    Nice Minun puolesta se on ihan sama uskosteko vai ette. Ette ole ongelma numero yksi listallani.

  16. D4R

    Farang: Elven archer is correct. It’s people like Enrique who causes the bad reputation.

    No, it’s your kinds of racist ignorants who ruins this countries reputation, just today i saw in the new that Findland is suffering of medical staffs, imagine how many well educated doctors you guys are missing with your stupid exenophobic attitude towards non finns, you should think twice of your attitude.

    • Migrant Tales

      Farang, ever thought that everything you write here can be used against your arguments? Many people read this blog so thank you for reinforcing what we write on Migrant Tales.

  17. Farang

    D4R, nice that you bring that up. There has already been occasions in Finland, where muslim nurses have refused to treat a male patient and also they have refused to comply with hygienic rules regarding outfit.

    I absolutely don’t want that kind of medical staff here in Finland. And that has nothing to do with racism, only with common sense.

    You just keep blaming all Finns as racist, that is all you can do. Seems that you just don’t have the capacity required to actually do anything that would benefit anyone.

  18. Farang

    Migrant Tales:

    “Farang, ever thought that everything you write here can be used against your arguments? Many people read this blog so thank you for reinforcing what we write on Migrant Tales.”

    Difference is that I only write facts and truth, without trying to make things look something they are not.

  19. D4R

    Elven Archer: Exatcly my thoughts but making up is so ugly consept, you innovate stories. You take something and twist and bend it until it’s a whole new story. Your writing is creative.

    Just like some P.S members do to us Somalis and Immigrants, generalizing us to be rapist, criminals, social wellfare shoppers etc etc, just like they twist rape stories so to label us as a rapist, just like they twist statistics so they label us as criminals. Why don’t you speak about the racist in Iltalehti chatrooms or in Hommaforum, or some P.S members what they’re doing and how they’re twisting stories and statistics about immigrants?

  20. D4R

    Elven archer:Have you ever concidered the probability of me joking earlier? It could explain the contradiction you seemed to notice in my doing here…?

    There’s a famouse Somali saying, wich goes like this, “joke only with your friends, others may get you or understand you or may offend by you, so i suggest you use that saying, it might be useful to you.

  21. D4R

    Sasu:D4R Mitä ihmeen väliä on Suomen maineella. Itse pidän tätä Haaviston ja muiden ihmisten maine kysymystä harhaan johtavana. Selviytyminen on minusta tärkeämpi, kuin suomen maine.

    Onko meidät lytätty pelkäksi maine kysymyksessi. Silloinhan Suomi voi hoitaa asian samalla tavalla kuin Britannia tai Yhdysvallat. Heitetään kaikki jonnetkin ghettoo, jotta ovat pois silmistä ja sitten nostetaan pari Jani Toivolaa edustamaan kaikkia Suomen värillisiä, jotta näyttäisi siltä että kaikki menee hyvin. Jos ongelma ei ole silmissä, ei se silloin vaikuta mitenkään maineeseen.

    Erittäin hyvä pointti, olet oikeassa, pitäisi kohdistaa keskitys selviytymiseen.

  22. Farang

    D4R: So are you really saying that beacuse there are people who twists truth about immigrants and Somalis, then it is ok for you to twist truth about Finns?

    You actually admitted that above. You do exactly the same thing as those people you complain about.

    • Mark

      Farang

      This blog is very clear in saying that racism in Finland is not an issue of all Finns. You and that other joker Elvin however were more than keen to paint Somalis a group as criminals and gold-diggers, however.

      Show me a single comment or post I have made on this blog that lumps all Finns into one group and applies a negative label?

      This is a quite pathetic attempt to reverse the argument and i don’t think anyone with half a brain cell is going to buy it, except you pair of jokers

    • Migrant Tales

      –This is a quite pathetic attempt to reverse the argument and i don’t think anyone with half a brain cell is going to buy it, except you pair of jokers.

      It’s typical of anti-immigrant hardliners. They are always whining and turning things around. I agree with Mark: Find one line where we call all Finns racists. We use “some” before Finns. You should as well when speaking of groups.

  23. D4R

    Farang: You just keep blaming all Finns as racist, that is all you can do. Seems that you just don’t have the capacity required to actually do anything that would benefit anyone.

    Farang, everyone knows here you’re a liar, you come here and twist things up in your own twisted way, maybe it tels alot about your mind, not have i once said all Finns to be racists, my wife is a Finn, so naturally i can’t be thinking all Finns to be racist, but for sure i do think you’re a racist, when i talk about racist Finns, i talk about “some”, and you unfortunately are a front leader.

  24. D4R

    Farang: Difference is that I only write facts and truth, without trying to make things look something they are not.

    In your mind buddy 🙂

  25. D4R

    Farang: D4R: So are you really saying that beacuse there are people who twists truth about immigrants and Somalis, then it is ok for you to twist truth about Finns?

    You actually admitted that above. You do exactly the same thing as those people you complain about

    no Farang, you’re twisting again my words or trying to misconstrue me, i was pointing out to you that what you’re accusing of us is really something you do in here all the time, but maybe you’re not that bright enough to understand my hint, we don’t twist things in here, we reveal the truth, if we twisted things in here, then show us the evidence in where or what did we twist or lie about? im waiting.

  26. Farang

    Mark:

    “You and that other joker Elvin however were more than keen to paint Somalis a group as criminals and gold-diggers, however.

    Show me a single comment or post I have made on this blog that lumps all Finns into one group and applies a negative label? ”

    What is your problem? Why do you make things up? I haven’t said single thing about Somalis.

    And for the second comment, I was talking about D4R, not you. So your comment makes no sense, it only proves that you don’t understand what you read.

  27. I am

    Exatcly my thoughts but making up is so ugly consept, you innovate stories. You take something and twist and bend it until it’s a whole new story. Your writing is creative.

    Hi Elf and all,
    Elf, How many times a day do u listen to immigrants like me?

    How many real stories do u know about us???
    Can u believe us?are we real ur mind?
    We foreigners r real people with real stories and i believe that u R also real and not a word on net page, so we r living in a real world and not a dream, and if it is not a dream we need to payattention to eachother, it is humanity, we r not living alone in this society.
    nothing can change the fact, fact has power fact is not silent fact is light like a shining star.
    Peace is best
    Wish a great day for u dear Elf

  28. Farang

    Migrant Tales: “Find one line where we call all Finns racists. We use “some” before Finns. You should as well when speaking of groups.”

    Ok, here comes couple of lines from one discussion:

    D4R: “Now it’s fair to say that Finland is Nazi country, and i don’t want non of you teling me different or trying to explain what’s going on in Finland”

    Sasu: “Ei Suomi ole natsi valtio vaan rasistinen valtio.”

    D4R: “Sasu, olet oikeassa, siinä tein virhe, korjaan Nazin ———>rasistinen valtioon.”

    • Migrant Tales

      Comments are one thing but look at the actual blog entries.

  29. BlandaUpp

    My grandfather and along with his father and his brothers also changed our family name from a Swedish one to a more nationalistic sounding made up Finnish one around the same time as your grandfather Enrique. It was a period of Nationalism and Finnishisation for everyone. I also suspect they may have been hiding our Roma/Jewish roots.

    My brother and sister both have dark hair and brown eyes while I have blue eyes and blonde hair like my mother. Growing up (in the 1980’s), children sometimes asked me where my was father from. At the time I would just tell them he was from Italy. I also remember people asking my mother where she had adopted my brother and sister. At school they also had a tough time because they looked darker. They were called “mustalainen” or “mutu”.

  30. Elven archer

    “You and that other joker Elvin however were more than keen to paint Somalis a group as criminals and gold-diggers, however.”

    Where? Please show me.

    “It may discourage some gold diggers to come here.”

    I can’t find the word “Somalis” in there? Have I even mentioned Somalis in this blog ever?

    “All day long I think of things
    but nothing seems to satisfy
    Think I’ll lose my mind
    if I don’t find something to pacify” (from Black Sabbath : Paranoid)

    Yeah, rock on, Mark!

  31. Elven archer

    “No, it’s your kinds of racist ignorants who ruins this countries reputation”

    You are labeling people in the worst way. What are the basis of your insults? There is none. I have not said anything racist. I don’t think racist thoughts. But there you are claiming to know me better without even any proof. Somebody could call that kind of labeling a racist thing to do. Do you think that racism is something only the white men do?

  32. Elven archer

    “We use “some” before Finns. You should as well when speaking of groups.”

    And if an immigration critic points out a percentage in a study report for example of crimes, that is saying “all” and not “some”? If an immigration critics says that there is more crime amongst a certain group, in what world that would mean “all of them” and not “some of them”? But I’m glad that you accept using the word “some”. I will remind you of that later if you forget.

    If I pointed out a fact about muslims (reported by a study) I would been called a racist. I have been called racist in this blog for just doing that. Even though a religion is not a race. You don’t born with it. You don’t wear it like a skin. You *choose* to believe in an idea. Are every idea equally good? If someone thinks they are not, is that racism? If it is racism, I just go and dig a hole to China. I believe the direct route could cut the costs of traveling in there. After all I don’t want to be a racist and I’m not a racist.

    • Mark

      Elven

      Ah yes, i forgot you were the religious bigot. My apologies. You don’t want Somalis in Finland not because they are black, but because they are Muslim. Well, you are in the same boat a Farang all the same.

      So, just to check, you have no objection to Somalis being on Finland?

  33. Elven archer

    “Ah yes, i forgot you were the religious bigot.”

    No, I’m not a religious person at all.

    “You don’t want Somalis in Finland not because they are black, but because they are Muslim.”

    Why do you constantly talk about Somalis? I have not talked about Somalis. I think it’s irrelevant if someone is or is not a Somali and so should you. I asked you already where did I say what you claimed: “… other joker Elvin however were more than keen to paint Somalis a group as criminals and gold-diggers”.

    Where, Mark? This question is not going away. Please answer the question or keep squirming in the corner where you just painted yourself. You label people. You make things up. You put words into people’s mouths, obviously with no shame. Can you apologize of your wrong-doing? This is a real test for your character.

    • Mark

      Elven you twit, read my last post, i already apologised. Yep i forgot the colour of your prejudice, so what, i think it makes little difference given your complete opposition to the discussion of racism on this blog.

  34. D4R

    Farang: Migrant Tales: “Find one line where we call all Finns racists. We use “some” before Finns. You should as well when speaking of groups.”

    Ok, here comes couple of lines from one discussion:

    D4R: “Now it’s fair to say that Finland is Nazi country, and i don’t want non of you teling me different or trying to explain what’s going on in Finland”

    Sasu: “Ei Suomi ole natsi valtio vaan rasistinen valtio.”

    D4R: “Sasu, olet oikeassa, siinä tein virhe, korjaan Nazin ———>rasistinen valtioon.”

    hehehe you’re taking my words out of context, nice try but no luck, you’re an idiot, i corrected myself for calling Finland as a nazi country, but i stay behind when i say that Finland is pretty
    much a racist country, you want proof, just check out your parliament, parliamentarian in your parliament calling dark skin people the N word, or a MP wanting to put gays and immigrants in a concentration camp, or how many MP’s with a nazi ideology are in the parliament? you can’t argue against this with me, you know im on truth.

  35. D4R

    Elven archer: You are labeling people in the worst way. What are the basis of your insults? There is none. I have not said anything racist. I don’t think racist thoughts. But there you are claiming to know me better without even any proof. Somebody could call that kind of labeling a racist thing to do. Do you think that racism is something only the white men do?

    No but you’re quick to defend them racist whom we’re addressing, for instance this latest broad Eronen, who made a stupid suggestion for immigrants in Finland, you were defending her, and many issues of racism wich we addres in this thread, you come here and attack us for addressing racim in Finland, why?, why do you attck us instead of discusing with us about the isues we’re addressing? there’re two reason to my logic why you’re attacking us, either you’re one of them, or you’re trying to hide racism under the carpet, maybe you’re trying to save Finlands reputation, i say it’s gone already, don’t bother, i suggest you start educating your fellow Finnish brethren to stop being xenophobic.

  36. D4R

    Elven archer: Where, Mark? This question is not going away. Please answer the question or keep squirming in the corner where you just painted yourself. You label people. You make things up. You put words into people’s mouths, obviously with no shame. Can you apologize of your wrong-doing? This is a real test for your character.

    Elven archer, let me ask you one question, why are you here in this thread? what’s your point being here, you’re not contributing in to this discussion, what you’re doing is just creating fuss, creating meaningless argument, what is that you’re trying to gain by this? and what is keeping you here?

  37. Elven archer

    “Elven archer, let me ask you one question, why are you here in this thread? what’s your point being here, you’re not contributing in to this discussion, what you’re doing is just creating fuss, creating meaningless argument, what is that you’re trying to gain by this? and what is keeping you here?”

    I tried but especially Mark turned it into a personal (even before this thread). The tactics is called poisoning the well: he’s a bigot, fascist and racist so he lies, consider that when you read his arguments. So I’m forced to defend myself. And I also belive it’s important to show the double standards here like you feel it’s important in Finland. Many of you have called me a racist but none have given any proof besides I (so they told me) belong to a group of Homma PS bigot racists. And these same people complain about generalizing! And here they are treating me, an individual, based on “my” group.

    If you read my first post here it was about the matter giving relevant information like this:

    “You could also have mentioned that the poll was only for the people in HS email list of willing participants who are readers of BS, I mean HS. So it’s hardly a random sample or a good sample. And it was their interpretation, not the actual views of the people in those countries. I really don’t think many foreigner have an opinition at all about some arctic country’s todays politics. You could argue that the participant’s reading of HS could have something to do with that image they have about how the things are…”

    • Mark

      Elven

      Most people on here cannot be bothered with you’re constant hysterical comments and reversals. So I’m a bigot, a racist and a fascist. Hilarious. No-one here takes you seriously, so that’s why they probably forget exactly what it is you object to about this blog. And you very much started with all the personal crap. In fact, it wad when you were losing the argument on your bigotry in the previous thread that you went out of your way to make the argument very personal against me. It’s all documented and written up on one of my articles.

  38. Elven archer

    “you want proof, just check out your parliament, parliamentarian in your parliament calling dark skin people the N word, or a MP wanting to put gays and immigrants in a concentration camp, or how many MP’s with a nazi ideology are in the parliament? you can’t argue against this with me, you know im on truth.”

    N-word in Finnish is still concidered by some, usually older people, as an neutral word. Don’t know about Hakkarainen though, but the other parliamentarians, media and the people comdemned his words. There was a big fuss about it so it seems Finland is an anti-racist country judging by people’s reaction in this case.

    The MP didn’t want to put anybody to concentration camps. It was a stupid joke which point was to create a scenario to make you think about gays and muslims living together, how well the values of those groups would fit together (how well islam accepts homosexuality).

    MP’s with nazi ideology? How many, you tell me?

    And even if you disagree with these, and obviously you *want* to do that, it doesn’t mean the country is racist. There is no racist methods, procedures or laws or anything. People are not racist. I find it racist to suggest that one of the most equal countries in the world by every comparision there has been would consist of unusually racist people. What is your logic here? If you think Finland is a racist country, what about African countries? Do you think in general they are more or less or equally racist than Finland? I also would like to hear rationale behind your answer.

  39. Elven archer

    “Elven you twit, read my last post, i already apologised. Yep i forgot the colour of your prejudice, so what, i think it makes little difference given your complete opposition to the discussion of racism on this blog.”

    You have a funny way to apologise: “Ah yes, i forgot you were the religious bigot. My apologies.” Was that an apology? And a twit too? In what world? In the same world that you give your so unbiased views of the Finns?

    So what that you called me a racist with no reason? Nice going, Mark. Is your word about other things too so trustworthy?

    So you lied about me saying that about Somalis. The question is now why? A mistake? Why? Because you generalized an individual in a wrong and very hurtful way. Yet you don’t even offer an honest apology. You just continue calling me names. And yet, you critize other people.

    How do you define bigoting? Giving false testimonies about people, is that part of it? Attacking individuals because you think they are a part of some group? Is it bigoting?

    • Mark

      Elven

      So what that you called me a racist for no reason? Nice going, Mark. Is your word about other things too so trustworthy?

      This is very interesting. You are telling people here that I called you a racist for no reason. And then repeating this claim, demanding an apology and using the idea of it to trash my integrity, honesty and trustworthiness. Is it true that I called you a racist?

      NO, it isn’t. This is what I wrote about you:

      You and that other joker Elvin however were more than keen to paint Somalis as a group as criminals and gold-diggers, however.

      Is this calling you a racist? I don’t think so. Do you see the word racist, Elven? I don’t think so!

      I said that you are keen to paint Somalis as a group as criminals etc. I apologised for my strict mistake, though it was not a lie, rather an error of memory. The mistake was easy to make in your case.

      Here are some of your choice quotes about Muslims and crime:

      … in France. About 60 to 70 percent of all inmates in the country’s prison system are Muslim, according to Muslim leaders, sociologists and researchers, though Muslims make up only about 12 percent of the country’s population.” and this… “In Britain, 11 percent of prisoners are Muslim in contrast to about 3 percent of all inhabitants, according to the Justice Ministry.

      And then you asked me:

      Why do you constantly talk about Somalis? I have not talked about Somalis.

      Well, perhaps because Somalis are the largest Muslim grouping in Finland.

      You are clever in that you deliberately avoid making these kinds of specific claims [Muslims are more criminal], though your choice presentation of statistics more than creates the picture you are too much of a coward to spell out. When your critics righly take your strong implications at face value, you immediately pounce with the ‘I didn’t draw that conclusion, you did, you must be the racist’.

      Infantile intellectual games to try to win an argument, or better still, smear your opponent, which is in fact your prefered method of debate. Somehow, when it comes to this kind of nonsense, you feel you are on safe ground. A real argument is something you generally try to avoid in the this fog of personal diatribes, like this one:

      I tried but especially Mark turned it into a personal (even before this thread). The tactics is called poisoning the well: he’s a bigot, fascist and racist so he lies, consider that when you read his arguments. So I’m forced to defend myself.

      And what do YOU offer as evidence of this very specific charge. It’s rather funny that you are asking me to defend a charge I didn’t make while all the while making the same charge and offering nothing in the way of evidence.

      Nope, you prefer to write things like this:

      Where, Mark? This question is not going away. Please answer the question or keep squirming in the corner where you just painted yourself. You label people. You make things up. You put words into people’s mouths, obviously with no shame.

      So, after you invented the idea that I called you a racist, you have used that invention to attack my honesty over and over. Clearly, like most of your posts here, your key aim is to attempt to undermine the integrity of the people that post here.

      I’ve no worries about that Elven – bring it on!! I’ve got your number, right in my back pocket, matey!

  40. BlandaUpp

    Elven archer

    PS politicians and their hangers on have the worst, most offensive “humour” on the planet.

    You can play dumb all you want but you’ve been exposed for what you really are!

    Here’s a selection of the Suomen Sisu recommended reading list that was deleted when they started getting too much media attention. Tell me again that they’re not Nazi-inspired racists after looking at this:

    POLITICS AND SOCIETY
    My Awakening David Duke
    The Political Soldier Derek Holland
    When Corporations Rule the World David C. Korten
    The Origins of Virtue Matt Ridley
    Paved With Good Intentions Jared Taylor

    ON TAXONOMIC DIFFERENCES OF THE HUMAN RACES
    The Bell Curve Richard J. Herrnstein & Charles Murray
    Why Race Matters Michael Levin
    The G-Factor Arthur R. Jensen
    Race John Baker
    The Beak of the Finch Jonathan Weiner
    Entry of genes into social science Ahmavaara & Vanhanen
    IQ and the Wealth of Nations Lynn & Vanhanen

    KEYS TO THE NORTHERN SOUL
    Faith and Action Helmut Stellrecht
    The reorganization of Europe on a racial and territorial basis Werner Daitz
    The Lightning and The Sun Savitri Devi
    Towards a New Europe Alfred Rosenberg
    Hopeanvalkea Lennart Meri
    Ragnarök Villy Sørensen

  41. Elven archer

    “PS politicians and their hangers on have the worst, most offensive “humour” on the planet.”

    A one of the opposition parties ruling Finland? I asked for the proof. You don’t even show the proof of PS. Sisu is not PS. How many legal propositions PS has gotten through?

    “You can play dumb all you want but you’ve been exposed for what you really are!”

    I asked you for the proof. Insulting me is not that. Is it so hard for you to understand that “I know it” is not a proof when I asked how do you know? Show me one racist thing I’ve said. Even one. You can’t. Take a long look in the mirror.

  42. Peter

    I find this talk ridiculous. I came to Finland 7 years ago and have received since then nothing but a welcoming attitude. I have always had a job but I still havent managed to learn Finnish well enough, so every day around 8 people on my team switch to English without any hesitation. If you feel not welcomed in Finland, it’s maybe, just maybe because you don’t have much to offer and general Finns (I hate that expression as if it’d refer to hamsters) see you on the same level as a Kallio drunk. Also about all the public office discrimination…I was in touch with them for 3h total. 2h when I came here and 1h when I got my permanent residency. Just saying maybe reflect on yourself and try to figure out WHY you have to be in a social office in the first place.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Peter, if you are lucky to offer something and people respect you for that, you shouldn’t look down on people who may be having a harder time. If adaption were as easy as you said, just switch on the right attitude and everything takes care of itself, then we wouldn’t have this blog and there probably wouldn’t be any need for a party like the PS.

      I like to see society as something like a social environment, which it is. Some societies bring out the best in some while others do the opposite. There may be many factors for this, personal and society’s attitudes. What role do both play?

      Welcome to Migrant Tales.

  43. BlandaUpp

    Elven archer

    Jussi Halla-Aho, James Hirvisaari, Olli Immonen and Juha Eerola were all members of Suomen Sisu before becoming PS Members of parliament. Those are the only ones willing to show their faces. What other party have members of parliament who have been found guilty in court of hate speech or inciting ethnic and religious hatred? Keep living in a bubble in your own head.

  44. BlandaUpp

    Hi Peter

    I’m happy that you’ve been able to find a way for yourself in our country despite being unable to speak the language and I’m glad you’ve found yourself a good work and social environment.

    You seem to have a very narrow view of why people may be upset about the political atmosphere in Finland today, perhaps because you’ve only read one or two threads. Maybe if you were a black or mixed race kid who is spat at or called a monkey on the bus home or told to go back to where you came from by children who are taught Nazi-era racial theories at home then you would have a different perspective on the issues some of us are talking about.

  45. Elven archer

    “Jussi Halla-Aho, James Hirvisaari, Olli Immonen and Juha Eerola were all members of Suomen Sisu before becoming PS Members of parliament.”

    Do you know what the parliament members even do? They make laws. And what are the laws these people have made? Give me a single example of what these people have put to practise in their position? Give me a single example what they have done in their position?

    If there’s no effect, how these people make Finland a racist country?

  46. justicedemon

    Peter

    1) How do you feel about the European Union?

    2) If you can’t understand Finnish, then how do you know what your colleagues and others really think of you? Are you quite sure that they regard you as their equal, and not as their pet foreigner?

    3) How does your employer support your efforts to learn Finnish? Do you get job release for this purpose? What has your employer done to help you improve your vocational skills?

    4) Have you compared your salary and benefits to that of others in your business doing the same work or work of equal value? What did you discover?

    5) Have you compared your promotion and advancement prospects to those of others in your business at the same grade? What did you discover?

    Be warned in advance that discussion of this subject may lift a veil of ignorance, and that you may be very unhappy at what you discover.

    Be further warned that avoiding such discussion may delay the time of enlightenment so long that you are no longer able to do anything about your situation. Picture yourself doing the same job in 20 or 30 years, long after all of your colleagues have been promoted to much more senior positions. Picture yourself made redundant through no fault of your own, and regarded by those ex colleagues as unemployable. In the meantime you have put down roots here, and your country of origin seems increasingly like an alien planet.

  47. Farang

    D4R:

    “hehehe you’re taking my words out of context, nice try but no luck, you’re an idiot, i corrected myself for calling Finland as a nazi country, ”

    What the h**`??? I even quoted your message where you corrected it, can’t you read? And now you complain that I didn’t take in account your correction? I pretty much did, you even quoted that part in your reply 😀 What an idiot.

  48. Farang

    Please D4R, try to focus. You are first ever Somali that I have had a discussion with. You really should try to give better impression 🙂

  49. Farang

    D4R:

    “or a MP wanting to put gays and immigrants in a concentration camp

    you can’t argue against this with me, you know im on truth.”

    That’s pretty much a lie. Hakkarainen never wanted to put gays and immigrants anywhere. That was similar lie from media as is this Eronen case now.

  50. Elven archer

    “Are you quite sure that they regard you as their equal, and not as their pet foreigner?”

    That’s the spirit! With this kind of healthy attitude one obviously manages just fine in Finland. Be paranoid, yeah, that will do it and gives you also a lot of friends.

  51. justicedemon

    Elf

    Either you are letting Black Sabbath confuse your thinking or you are giving us an example of a typical glass ceiling response.

    Look back at how Peter described his situation and you will see that the checklist questions about relative pay, working conditions, promotion prospects and in-service training were justified.

    Peter’s employer must be aware that he needs skills training in order to advance and realise his full potential, so it is reasonable to ask what the employer has done about this over a period of seven years. I would expect Peter to get job release for language skills training to the same extent as his colleagues get job release for other forms of training. Alarm bells start to ring if Peter is excluded from such training, ostensibly because of his inadequate language skills, but the employer then does nothing to address and rectify the cause of that exclusion. Alarm bells also ring if Peter’s remuneration is simply TES where others in the same type of work are getting TES + 10% and this is “justified” by a difference in skills that the employer is doing nothing to address. Being passed over for promotion despite greater seniority is another warning signal, and it is important not to assume that this can only mean that there is some fault in the individual.

    Your response amounts to an echo of my ignorance is bliss warning. When addressed to a woman, it usually takes the form of “why should she worry her pretty little head about something like that?”, whereas men are more likely to hear that they would “disturb the atmosphere and cause trouble” by asking about such matters. This is entirely typical of institutional discrimination.

    • Migrant Tales

      JusticeDemon, very well said about Peter. Let’s hope that’s not the case. It would be nice to hear from him to see what he has to say about the issue.

  52. D4R

    Farang: Please D4R, try to focus. You are first ever Somali that I have had a discussion with. You really should try to give better impression

    Im not here to impress you, i could careless what you and other racist think of me, you already made up in your mind about me with your prejudices, to you im already a dark, rapist, social bum, criminal, what on earth is the impression you’re talking about, forget about it, you’ll receive the same attitude you come up on me.

  53. D4R

    Elven archer: “PS politicians and their hangers on have the worst, most offensive “humour” on the planet.”

    A one of the opposition parties ruling Finland? I asked for the proof. You don’t even show the proof of PS. Sisu is not PS. How many legal propositions PS has gotten through?

    “You can play dumb all you want but you’ve been exposed for what you really are!”

    I asked you for the proof. Insulting me is not that. Is it so hard for you to understand that “I know it” is not a proof when I asked how do you know? Show me one racist thing I’ve said. Even one. You can’t. Take a long look in the mirror.

    You seem to duck alot of question here, why don’t you answer blandupp question of, why there is a link between some of MP of P.S and Suomen Sisu? in wikipedia Suomen Sisus is linked to nazism, now answer it before you starts askig me to answer you this lol

  54. D4R

    Elven archer: Do you know what the parliament members even do? They make laws. And what are the laws these people have made? Give me a single example of what these people have put to practise in their position? Give me a single example what they have done in their position?

    You’re playing dumb, the main concern is not about what have they done but what’re they going to do in the future, these guys are in power, they have the power to cause damage, maybe make new laws, and we already know these guys James and Jussi have a Nazi ideology, want proof, just go their blogs and see their writings or what kind of people gather in their blogs and what kind of discussion takes place, you seem to act stupid like you don’t know what’s going on here.

  55. Sasu

    Mark
    Miten sinä jaksat käydä melkein samaa keskustelua aina vai uudestaan ilman mitään saavutusta.
    Elven tuskin ikinä ymmärtää sinun kantaa.

    • Mark

      Sasu

      I think it is important that accusations of ‘lying’ or being ‘racist’ should never be allowed to go unchallenged.

      Yes, it’s work, but it’s important to stand up for your own integrity. It doesn’t bother me to do this. I don’t do it in the hope that he will understand my position, that is for sure. It is fairly clear that attempts to reverse accusations of bigotry or racism are par for the course for folks like Elven and Farang.

      Does it achieve anything? I don’t have any expectations about what can be achieved in these comments. I have expectations about what I might write for an article on the blog, but not for the comments. It’s too much of a bear pit, and only those most committed to trying to understand the psychology of this debate would plough through them, I’m sure. And I think for them, a response is useful, because it illustrates that we understand the propoganda techniques being used against us and that we have a coherant response.

      A bully sometimes wins when everyone else is too exhausted to hit back anymore!

  56. khr

    Elven archer:

    N-word in Finnish is still concidered by some, usually older people, as an neutral word. Don’t know about Hakkarainen though, but the other parliamentarians, media and the people comdemned his words. There was a big fuss about it so it seems Finland is an anti-racist country judging by people’s reaction in this case.

    The change in the meaning of the finnish N-word happened around mid 90’s, so I doubt Hakkarainen was unaware it’s considered racist nowadays; usually much older people than him know to be wary of its usage. So it seems to me that making a fuss about it was justified.

  57. khr

    Just as a little addition to the list of books BlandaUpp postedd, here seems to be the complete list of Sisu’s recommended books: http://joksuh.puheenvuoro.uusisuomi.fi/66075-suomen-sisun-salainen-kirjasto

    Any of the books by themselves, or even as a collection if it was balanced by wide enough philosophical view, would not be so worrying, but the kind of big picture the list has is not balanced. So while BlandaUp did a bit of filtering, and the list contains a lot of interesting reading, as a whole it seems to have a fairly racist leaning

  58. I am

    Hi Peter,
    I am glad that u made it and u r lucky here

    There are many things that can show u there is racist here, and its so clear
    If u speak or understand Finnish language, i could not understand very well about this racist if i was speaking English and not Finnish
    If u need go TE office, social office service, court,…
    If u r foreigner, immigrant or refugee
    We all have different jobs and talents, different situations

    Good luck more and more my brotehr peter, smile

  59. Elven archer

    “Elven archer: “PS politicians and their hangers on have the worst, most offensive “humour” on the planet.””

    What kind of a crappy quote was that? Those are not my words.

    “A one of the opposition parties ruling Finland? I asked for the proof. You don’t even show the proof of PS. Sisu is not PS. How many legal propositions PS has gotten through?

    “You can play dumb all you want but you’ve been exposed for what you really are!””

    And again, very bad quoting. I make it more readable:

    – A one of the opposition parties ruling Finland? I asked for the proof. You don’t even show the proof of PS. Sisu is not PS. How many legal propositions PS has gotten through? (this is me asking you)

    – You can play dumb all you want but you’ve been exposed for what you really are! (this is you “answering” me)

    Well, that’s all nice and all but the quoestions were not about me. Can’t you even make a simple answer to backup your claims?

  60. Elven archer

    “You seem to duck alot of question here, why don’t you answer blandupp question of, why there is a link between some of MP of P.S and Suomen Sisu? in wikipedia Suomen Sisus is linked to nazism, now answer it before you starts askig me to answer you this lol”

    Yeah, me not answering questions, right. And not you? Right. What’s there to answer about? Yes, there is a link. If they are members, they are members. Isn’t it, like duh, obvious? Now, can you answer, what has that link done in our politics? How many laws they have pushed though? How many govermental policies or guidelines they have managed to push through? So how they make our country, as an institution, racist if they have no effect on it’s policies?

    A simple question. Surely it’s not too much for you?

  61. Elven archer

    The burden of proof seems to be a very unknown consept in this blog. If you make a claim, *you* back it up. Instead the fashion here is to insult the people asking for the proof.

  62. Elven archer

    “You can play dumb all you want but you’ve been exposed for what you really are!”

    Actually, a few words about this kind of attitude is in order. This attitude is very harmful. It is the kind of attitude racists use. Please don’t act like racist.

  63. Elven archer

    You just can’t treat people like that. It’s like saying: “I treat you badly (not because of what you just did but) because I know what you are, I know how you *insert a colour here* guys are.” It is so wrong! What is maybe even worse is that in this blog you often get cheered for it by some others like Mark.

    “Yeah, you showed him alright. You put that *beep* in his place where he belongs”, it’s like saying that. It is simply so wrong.

    • Mark

      Elven

      You just can’t treat people like that. It’s like saying: “I treat you badly (not because of what you just did but) because I know what you are, I know how you *insert a colour here* guys are.” It is so wrong! What is maybe even worse is that in this blog you often get cheered for it by some others like Mark.

      “Yeah, you showed him alright. You put that *beep* in his place where he belongs”, it’s like saying that. It is simply so wrong.

      This is perverse beyond measure!!! Remind me again who it is that hasn’t a good thing to say about Muslims, who cannot wait to remind us of the crime rates of Muslims or the problems of multiculturalism? Yet lo and behold, he’s here on Migrant Tales telling us how to avoid being judgmental about people. Yep, God forbid that Mark ever cheers you on, you really will be in with the racists then!

      Elven, you still haven’t corrected yourself for saying I called you a racist!

      So, if you want to discuss the issues, here are a few questions for you:

      1. Do you think that the core values of Islam are compatible with European values?
      2. Do you think that Muslims commit more crime?
      3. Do you think that the number of Muslims in Europe is growing ‘too fast’?
      4. Do you think that immigration policies should be changed to reflect your answers to the above?
  64. Elven archer

    “Is this calling you a racist? I don’t think so. Do you see the word racist, Elven? I don’t think so!”

    You implicitly even advitted that.

    “You and that other joker Elvin however were more than keen to paint Somalis a group as criminals and gold-diggers, however.”

    “Ah yes, i forgot you were the religious bigot.”

    So what exactly you thought? 😀 What was the idea in that lie you put in my mouth? Why did you even make the stupid lie? Are you really so prejudiced that you just happily imagine things and put them in my name? If I was dark skinned you maybe could realize what kind of behaviour you are practising. But I’m not so you can’t even give me an honest apology of your “mistake”. Instead you came up with an yet another insult! Yes, you are clearly the man we Finns should listen about when talking about how to treat people. For God’s (The Flying Spaghetti Monster) sake!

    • Mark

      Elven

      You implicitly even admitted it.

      Meaning you couldn’t find me refer to you as a racist, and yet shouted to the heavens about this grave injustice. Twit!

      Lie? Yeah, right.

      Are you really so prejudiced that you just happily imagine things and put them in my name?

      Oh yeah, such as? The fact that you are a bigot in regard to religion? I’m sure I’m not the first, am I Elven? 😀

      Elven, I wouldn’t give a rat’s arse if you were dark skinned or purple skinned, the way you lump people into groups and practice your animosity, prejudice and intolerance is all I need to know to make my mind up about you.

      I already apologised for my ‘error’, but I’m not apologising for calling you a racist for the simple fact that i didn’t call you a racist. In fact, it’s about time you apologised for that stupid accusation you said you were going to come back to again and again. I bet you’re happy about that now 😀

      Yes, you are clearly the man we Finns should listen about when talking about how to treat people.

      We Finns? lololol How easily he sets himself up as the spokesman for a nation. What’s that supposed to do, make me feel like a silly foreigner? Twit!

      So, still nothing to say about the fact the you very much DID call me a lying fascist racist bigot. You’re a god damn hypocrite Elven. 😀
      And so exactly which race am I racist against? And what exactly about my comments makes you deduce I’m a fascist? lolol You really are on planet Zogg.

  65. Elven archer

    “Remind me again who”

    This was not about me but a general principal. If one does not do anything wrong, you can’t go insulting him like “I know how you *beep* always are”. But you just proved my point with your lack of understanding and again attacking me so thank you for that.

    Because of “what I am” (what *you* think I am) I am simply not capable of doing anything right. Asking a simply question is forbidden for me. I don’t deserve an answer even thought he made a claim about our society, about us, a very insulting claim indeed. Imagine someone doing that to a colored person: “You just acted like anybody else would, but I *know* what you really are and so I treat you differently.” That is horrible behaviour! And you can’t even admit that because of “the way I am” and keep attacking. Because of “what I am” I have no rights? I am to called names always for asking a simple proof for the claim, the accusation? Instead of comdemning his words, you comdemn me more and join the mob.

    “Elven, you still haven’t corrected yourself for saying I called you a racist! ”

    Maybe because you made a racist comment and put it in my mouth? Maybe because you after that called me a bigot and so continued your attack? Maybe because you have called me, and I quote, a “fascist”. Maybe that has something to do with it?

    • Mark

      Elven

      This was not about me but a general principal. If one does not do anything wrong, you can’t go insulting him like “I know how you *beep* always are”.

      Well, it’s not too bit a stretch to say that many of the different critics on this blog repeat the same nonsense, calling US the racists, even though we highlight racism, condemn it etc. And given your fairly obvious profile as an Islamaphobe, I’m not one bit surprised you got stuck in box. If you don’t like it, I don’t give a fuck, because in this case you got entirely through your own doings, and not some accident of birth. However, the bit that struck me was that although you claim it was a ‘general principle’ you were defending, you thought nonetheless to name me personally as someone who would pat them on the back for their ‘racism’. Doesn’t sound very general, somehow!

      Elven, you really are on the wrong site if you are going to start preaching to us about your version of racism. You do realise that many sociologists regard Islamaphobia as ‘the new racism’? What do you think of that then? Are you going to tell me they don’t know what they’re talking about or that they are just communists? Let’s see.

      Maybe because you made a racist comment and put it in my mouth? Maybe because you after that called me a bigot and so continued your attack? Maybe because you have called me, and I quote, a “fascist”. Maybe that has something to do with it?

      Which even if true would not make me a racist by any definition. Look, you haven’t named Somalis as being responsible for high crime, but you have named Muslims. If you didn’t know it already, Somalis are the biggest Muslim grouping in Finland, so I really don’t see a lot of change between your remark (which in context is bigotry towards religion) and a racist remark. And anyhow, going back to the actual remark, I said you were keen to point out the crime of Somalis. Change that to ‘keen to point out the crime of Muslims’ and we really are not very away from this idea of labelling and denigrating groups based on what is clearly individual behaviour.

      So, your standards are quite high when it comes to demanding an apology for an ‘implied’ remark that wasn’t actually made and yet you are not willing to offer one for a remark that very much was made. Hmmm, double standards anyone?

  66. Elven archer

    “Do you think that the core values of Islam are compatible with European values?”

    Define compatible. The values of Islam are very different, it’s so called though paradigm is different.

    “Do you think that Muslims commit more crime?”

    Not any more or less than the statistics in the (study) papers have told us.

    “Do you think that the number of Muslims in Europe is growing ‘too fast’?”

    Yes. I would like every religion in the world to decline in numbers.

    “Do you think that immigration policies should be changed to reflect your answers to the above?”

    Yes.

    • Mark

      Define compatible. The values of Islam are very different, it’s so called though paradigm is different.

      Incompatible in that you would not like them to live in Finland in large numbers, let’s say 20% of the population? Incompatible in the sense that you don’t like their beliefs and so would not like to see Finland influenced by those beliefs? Incompatible in that at some point you would make ‘being a Muslim’ something that would a criteria for denying residency to someone, regardless of any other criteria.

      “Do you think that Muslims commit more crime?”

      Not any more or less than the statistics in the (study) papers have told us.

      Great. Nice to see that you rely on the media to get an accurate picture of events. But pray tell, what have the papers told us, and in particular in regard to the situation in Finland. And pray tell, what is your conclusion? I don’t think ‘no more or less than what someone else has said‘ really tells us a lot about YOU believe.

      “Do you think that the number of Muslims in Europe is growing ‘too fast’?”

      Yes. I would like every religion in the world to decline in numbers.

      I take it you don’t have a very high regard of religious people? Care to elaborate exactly what you think about religious people?

      So, you do want policies to reflect your opinions about the above questions. Personally, I think that none of the above points should anything to do with immigration policy, but that’s my opinion. Give me a better idea how you think these answers should link to immigration policy?

  67. D4R

    Mark: Sasu

    I think it is important that accusations of ‘lying’ or being ‘racist’ should never be allowed to go unchallenged.

    Yes, it’s work, but it’s important to stand up for your own integrity. It doesn’t bother me to do this. I don’t do it in the hope that he will understand my position, that is for sure. It is fairly clear that attempts to reverse accusations of bigotry or racism are par for the course for folks like Elven and Farang.

    Does it achieve anything? I don’t have any expectations about what can be achieved in these comments. I have expectations about what I might write for an article on the blog, but not for the comments. It’s too much of a bear pit, and only those most committed to trying to understand the psychology of this debate would plough through them, I’m sure. And I think for them, a response is useful, because it illustrates that we understand the propoganda techniques being used against us and that we have a coherant response.

    A bully sometimes wins when everyone else is too exhausted to hit back anymore!

    I agree with you Mark, we should never get tired of defending what’s right, this can be a full time job sometimes but at the end of the day we’re defending our humanrights.

  68. Elven archer

    “Lie? Yeah, right.”
    ““You and that other joker Elvin however were more than keen to paint Somalis a group as criminals and gold-diggers, however.””

    Then show me my comment about Somalis before you said that. Show me? Show me? Show me? How many times I need to ask? Show me? Or admit you lied boldly and are too little a man to even admit it.

    I, on the other hand, am willing to admit that you implied I was a racist and not used the exact word. But you did put words in my mouth. And you have called me a “bigot” and “fascist”.

  69. Elven archer

    “We Finns? lololol How easily he sets himself up as the spokesman for a nation. What’s that supposed to do, make me feel like a silly foreigner? Twit!”

    Don’t you feel like it? That is surprising to hear when you whine constantly how bad it is in Finland for the immigrants/foreigners.

  70. eyeopener

    Hi guys.

    Back to our “reason to exist”. Discussions as we have seen here are just distracting from our cause.

    Arguing with the “wall of ignorance and arrogance” does help the discussion. As it turns always -and look at all threads recently- that they are right and we are stupid.

    Let it be. No fuel for them and power for our cause.

    Yoepie!!

    • Migrant Tales

      eyeopener, the Russian media has paid special attention to one of Helena Eronen’s Facebook pictures with the cap and edelweiss medal. I wonder where they got that idea from?.. 🙂

  71. Elven archer

    “It is fairly clear that attempts to reverse accusations of bigotry or racism are par for the course for folks like Elven and Farang.”

    Folks like me? Folks like *insert a colour here*? So just listen to yourself? Listen to your prejudice. You prefer talking about “folks like me” to giving a simple answer to a simple question. But I get it, you don’t have answers, only accusations with no basis of whatsoever. If you had something to back it up, you would have already spilled it out. So please just rave on about the Finns and Finland and accuse them and talk about “folks like me”. What does it make you? 😉

    • Mark

      Elven

      Folks like me? Folks like *insert a colour here*? So just listen to yourself? Listen to your prejudice. You prefer talking about “folks like me” to giving a simple answer to a simple question. But I get it, you don’t have answers, only accusations with no basis of whatsoever.

      With all due respect, Elven, you have not a clue about the nature of prejudice. You and Farang have posted many hundreds of comments on this blog stating your opinions about this or that. This is information upon which any individual can rightly form an opinion of you. It is also possible with this information to make comparisons between the two of you, and to note that you both seem very keen to label the commentators here as racist

      If you had something to back it up, you would have already spilled it out. So please just rave on about the Finns and Finland and accuse them and talk about “folks like me”. What does it make you? 😉

      And as if I didn’t need it already, this comment, written by the hand of Elven, more than demonstrates how you put YOURSELF into a box. Time and again on this blog, we have pointed out that our beef is not with ‘Finns and Finland’, but with racism and prejudice in Finland. You are among that select band of individuals that absolutely refuse to accept this and continue to spread this lie. So, you are lumped in with the other idiots that JD collectively and belovedly refers to as ‘epihäket’ 😀 It is a badge you have well-earned, i must say 😀

      Now this is based on actual information about you as individuals. This is not based on your membership of a group. However, once you have pinned your colours to the mast, people are entitled to decide to put you into a group. I agree, it isn’t ideal, and it may block a genuine encounter. However, I really don’t think for one second that you pair of numbskulls come here looking for a genuine encounter, so I don’t see what you have to cry about at all.

  72. Elven archer

    “A bully sometimes wins when everyone else is too exhausted to hit back anymore!”

    You call people names like racist and bigot and think they are the bullies? When asked for the reason you call them names and not answer why do you label people in the way you do. And they are the bullies? All right. I’ve read about that kind of martyrism somewhere just recently…

    • Mark

      Elven

      When asked for the reason you call them names and not answer why do you label people in the way you do.

      On the contrary, I give very precise reasons why I call you, for example, a bigot when it comes to religion.

  73. Elven archer

    “Well, it’s not too bit a stretch to say that many of the different critics on this blog repeat the same nonsense, calling US the racists, even though we highlight racism, condemn it etc. ”

    You accuse *other* groups of people of racism.

    “You do realise that many sociologists regard Islamaphobia as ‘the new racism’?”

    I was just told in this blog that one can’t be a racist if he’s of the same race that the insulted one. Talking about contradictions.

    I think those sociologists are pretty stupid for saying that because a religion is an idea in which you choose to believe. If you belive in communism, an idea too, can’t I critize communismn? That is just about as stupid as it gets.

  74. Elven archer

    Mark, you actually gave reasons, very ignorant and prejudiced and just plain false reasons, but still reasons. The person to whom I was referring to on the other did what I described. I haven’t see you condemning his behaviour.

    AND my answer was to D4R (I quoted him) not to you, Mark.

  75. Sasu

    D4R Kerroppa mitä hyötyä on jankata samaa asiaa jos on hyvin suuri varmuus, että he eivät aijo uskoa. Näiden “keskusteluiden” ongelma on, että ne jankaavat paikalla.

    Kannattaa muistaa näiden äärioikeistolaisten heppujen olevan Suomalaisen rasismi jäävuoren huippu. Äänekäs sellainen mutta pieni. Suurempi osa suomalaisista eivät ole Skinhead tason rasisteja vaan normaaleja ihmisiä, jotka ovat vain sulkeneet silmänsä rasismille. Sulkemalla silmänsä rasismille he ovat tehneet itsensä sokeiksi omasta rasismista ja vahvistavat uskomusta, että rasismi koostuu skinhead tason rasisteista vain. He ovat ongelma numero yksi ennemmin kuin äärioikeisto.

  76. eyeopener

    Hi MT.

    I am not sure if I should be happy with this special attention 🙂 Wondering about the far right wing hooligans (Obviously with the hidden support of the Kremlin). They seem to love Nazi symbolism. OK, they turn it into their own “I belong to you” synbols. Like all gangs do. We …….and the others.

    Simply frustrating.

  77. Peter

    Hi me again, I have to take a stand here, since you guys started speculating about my persona. So I want to address couple of the questions here.

    But before I do so, I want to point out that on some level this discussion will become very philosophical, since you cannot change the rules of our society easily. If you come from a country with a ef’ed up background, you will be naturally grouped into a minority and the problems being caused by those. If you don’t have a proper education, you will be treated in life worse. But there are also lots of positive examples, I know plenty of Russians in my sector, that are doing really fine – and that’s not exactly one of the beloved neighbours here.

    And about the points before, yes I did read only a few blog posts. Pardon me for that. However I just get annoyed if I hear that some foreigner accuses all Finns to be racist, because he is treated badly, especially if he comes here to live on social welfare, has no education and a family of 10 to support. That’s the same logic as accusing all Somalis of being rapists. Life isn’t fair, but stop blaming others all the time, really.

    1) How do you feel about the European Union?
    Pretty good, in fact Finland is now my third country I moved to in my life. So far my favorite.

    2) If you can’t understand Finnish, then how do you know what your colleagues and others really think of you? Are you quite sure that they regard you as their equal, and not as their pet foreigner?
    Well we still do communicate, don’t you think a condescending attitude would have slipped into a remark or two by now? Never happened.

    3) How does your employer support your efforts to learn Finnish? Do you get job release for this purpose? What has your employer done to help you improve your vocational skills?
    They offered paid courses, I haven’t taken them up on the offer yet. Also, it’s my 4th company here.

    4) Have you compared your salary and benefits to that of others in your business doing the same work or work of equal value? What did you discover?
    I work in a company of 60 people and am currently probably top 5%? At least the best guys I know get around the same as I do. Sorry to disppoint, but even by Finnish standards an annual salary of over 60ke is quite ok.

    5) Have you compared your promotion and advancement prospects to those of others in your business at the same grade? What did you discover?
    Yes I progressed well enough in 7 years, infact probably gonna start my own business soon.

    So yeah stop drawing pictures you want to see. I am a foreigner in Finland and I have been treated well, respectfully and have been offered enough possibilities to progress and I have taken up on them. I have enjoyed working with most Finns but with some I didn’t, but that was mostly on an individual level. I’m just saying arriving in Finland doesn’t necessarily mean you arrived in the society too. Bring something to the table and you will be treated well, if you don’t, please don’t be surprised if you don’t get the same treatment as a doctor or an architect. Yes life isn’t fair, but if you want to change that you need to change humanity.

    Good luck with that.

  78. I am

    Hi Peter,
    I am a foreigner in Finland and i have been treated badly, we have different experiences about our life here, I cant say u r liar, u been enough lucky in ur life and here too and also u cant say to me that why am not a business person okay?
    Peter, do U think just doctors and architects are important persons in this world?
    Some people cant bring something to the table, but that cant change their human beings we r all human beings, we cant put down people because they dont have good educations, thats not right, its a big insult for them, maybe they cant answer to us, but they feel broken in themselves, being kind to people with words is for free, we dont need pay money for our words if we talk with respect and kindness to people.
    yes money can do many things for us, being success is very good, u always feel very well inside yourself, u feel energy, u feel happy but what if we cant be success anymore? Its life, normal and not a surprise, something can happen, we dont know from where? but again its life
    Please peter,
    Dont feel sad when we talk about racist in Finland, no body said all Finns are racist., freedom of the speech is very important for all us, sure tahts ur right too, so u r always welcome here to MT.
    Good luck to u as well

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