Ny Tid: Islamofobins idéhistoria

by , under All categories, Enrique

Comment: Here a very long story about the origins of Islamophobia in Europe reported in Ny Tid.  The article states that throughout the centuries Europeans have looked for scapegoats to lash out against a common enemy. The Jews, Roma and Islam are recent tragic examples.

The Migrant Tales blog is a mirror of what some people think in Finland and Europe. Some prefer to stress over and over again how “incompatible” some groups are to our culture. That supposedly gives them an automatic carte blanche to hate others.  It is odd that none of these bloggers who have such strong opinions comment with their real names.

Even though people have the right in Western society to make fun of any religious group, Denmark appears to have gone over the brink.  A Somali man was convicted of “terrorism” for breaking into the home of Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, who had made fun of the Prophet Muhammad. The man was sentenced to nine years in prison, according to AOLNews.

Probably this is the type of country that the True Finns want for Finland: tough laws founded on hatred of other cultures. In sum, living in denial to the world.

Do you agree?

___________

Om man alls vill begripa den hets mot muslimer som likt vinterns isvindar för närvarande sveper över Europa bör man läsa Mattias Gardells bok Islamofobi – det slår Lars Sund fast

To keep on reading click here.

  1. Tony Garcia

    “It is odd that none of these bloggers who have such strong opinions comment with their real names. ”

    I don’t usually use this kind of comments here , but you really makes me laugh…

    • Enrique

      –I don’t usually use this kind of comments here , but you really makes me laugh…

      That’s pretty good: I’ve made the both of you laugh. As you have probably gathered, racism is not taken lightly in this blog. Are you surprised that somebody can say it to you straight on with name and all the works? I personally believe that racism, xenophobia, Islamophobia, discrimination, homophobia and all types of bigotry show the darkest side of a human being. These are the ones that bring the worst in humans.

      I will mention it to you in plain English: Racism, or Islamophobia, is unacceptable. It is a pathological state in an individual and society. And who are you to judge other people and, again, to do this anonymously? I think that is pretty low.

  2. xyz

    Tony, why do you comment if you have nothing intelligent to say? These were your last 3 comments:

    “This is a very interesting comment…”

    “Nice? calling me names every time you are cornered? You have an interesting concept of being nice…”

    “I don’t usually use this kind of comments here , but you really makes me laugh”

  3. Tony Garcia

    “As you have probably gathered, racism is not taken lightly in this blog. ”

    First I never comment on race. But this is a good news, can we know be sure that you’ll start to denounce also black racism against Finns?

    Second “Islamophobia” doesn’t exists, it’s just one way for the left to excuse Muslims from whether they do.

    ” to do this anonymously.”

    You know I’m not anonymously here, but if repeating this here over and over makes you fell better, alright go on… But for me, that’s is pretty low…

    • Enrique

      –But this is a good news, can we know be sure that you’ll start to denounce also black racism against Finns?

      OK, give us a case where blacks discriminate on Finns and I will be more than happy to write something on it.

      –Second “Islamophobia” doesn’t exists, it’s just one way for the left to excuse Muslims from whether they do.

      There is a consensus that it is a “phobia.”

      You are anonymous. I don’t know who you are nor do you publish your stuff with your real name. I told you before that I do because I must be accountable for what I say. I believe in what I say therefore I have no issues to say it loud and publicly.

  4. Tony Garcia

    “tough laws founded on hatred of other cultures. In sum, living in denial to the world. ”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/8304058/Somali-man-sentenced-to-nine-years-for-attack-on-Danish-cartoonist.html

    “Geele, 29, broke into the home of cartoonist Kurt Westergaard with an axe and a sharp knife on New Year’s Day last year.”

    “… he threw his axe at a police officer who arrived to arrest him,…”

    ” the court heard testimony about how the man wielded his axe, first to break into the house and then to try to chop through the steel-reinforced door of Mr Westergaard’s bathroom – the secure room of his house. “

  5. Klay_Immigrant

    That crime is shocking Tony isn’t it. But we both know a drunk Finn breaking into a Somali man’s house to cause harm is much worse than a Somali breaking into a Finnish man’s house to do the same, in some people’s mind. It’s just damn right awful and terribly sad that there are people who defend these criminals.

  6. xyz

    Klay_Immigrant: Again, one guy represents the whole group according to you. Man you will never learn it. You are sure that you are doing a PhD?

  7. Tony Garcia

    “blacks discriminate on Finns ”

    Discriminate? Aren’t we talking about racism? I’m confused…

    “There is a consensus that it is a “phobia.” ”

    On the left, for me this nothing but shelter Muslims from whatever they do, even if they brake into someone house with a axe to kill him, as we just saw…

    “You are anonymous. I don’t know who you are nor do you publish your stuff with your real name.”

    So the drive license I posted here is fake, isn’t? Or stolen, perhaps? I do write with my real name here, the only one here, besides you. And don’t worry you’ll meet me soon enough.

    • Enrique

      –Discriminate? Aren’t we talking about racism? I’m confused…

      You sound like Tiwaz, calling the victim the aggressor. Please give me an example of racism of a black person in Finland. Let’s analyze it together.

      Islamophobia is generally accepted in the same way as xenophobia.

      You mean the IP address? You are still anonymous. It states where you live. We had a bund of people that were registered in the Seychelles.

      My point is that you would never speak they way you do if you did it with your real name. You can vehemently take a stance because you are anonymous.

  8. xyz

    Sad case in the UK….but, 11.000 Somalis in Finland…and all of them equipped with an Axe?
    How comes that I am still alive?

    Driving License can be manipulated with image processing programs.

    • Enrique

      Tony, I want Migrant Tales to be a voice againt all those that think they can insult immigrants and get away with it. On this blog they are accountable, even if they think they are not.

      You never answered my question: Do you support Hugo Chávez? He is a sort of Venezuelan Timo Soini.

  9. Tony Garcia

    “You mean the IP address?”

    No, I mean the picture of my drive license I posted here no long ago, did you forget about it? Or you think it’s a fake? Or stolen? I’m using my real name here, the problem is that for you it’s impossible for an immigrant to love Finland and respect Finnish people. Well, I can tell you, it’s not.

    But don’t worry I’ll be in Finland in few weeks and I’ll drive from Tampere to Mikkeli just to prove to you my identity and stop once and for all this stupid game.

    We talk about Chaves before, you do have short memory don’t you? He’s an communist idiot who like to kiss the arse of terrorists states like Iran.

    I just think Migrants Tales could be a voice against all those who think they can insult ANYONE and get away with it. Unfortunately everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.

    • Enrique

      –I just think Migrants Tales could be a voice against all those who think they can insult ANYONE and get away with it.

      I told you that you are welcome to bring such a case. I don’t think that anyone is condoning racism from ANY side. Let’s take a specific case, study it and see if it is the same thing. I can see cases of one group being racist towards another. That does happen. However, in my mind, in order to live in a society where there is two-way mutual acceptance, respect and equal opportunity, all of the members must abide by the latter.

      We can discuss this in greater deal.

  10. Tony Garcia

    By the way my wife has just sent this to me…

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/05/AR2005080502015_3.html?referrer=facebook

    “It (Finland) is ethnically and religiously homogeneous. A strong Lutheran work ethic, combined with a powerful sense of probity, dominates the society. Homogeneity has led to consensus: Every significant Finnish political party supports the welfare state and, broadly speaking, the high taxation that makes it possible.”

  11. JusticeDemon

    lol@Tony the TobyJug

    But don’t worry I’ll be in Finland in few weeks and I’ll drive from Tampere to Mikkeli just to prove to you my identity and stop once and for all this stupid game.

    There’s no chance of that happening, Ricky. You might take the opportunity to introduce the Toby to some of your Somali friends and give this brave cyber warrior an opportunity to say to their faces what he has been saying about them on this blog.

    I guarantee that he won’t have the guts even to meet them.

  12. JusticeDemon

    lol@the TobyJug

    How many of the Finnish public policies described in that Washington Post article do your teabagger heroes support?

    You remind me of Kelvin MacKenzie Sun readers in the UK who thought it was a Labour paper back in the 1980s. I bet that aside from the bit that you quoted, you failed to absorb ANYTHING else.

    This is really very funny. Finnish universal public health care (yeah!) Obama bill to extend health care just a little bit in the USA (boo! Communist!) Finnish gender equality (yeah!) Chavez moves to improve civil rights for women in Venezuela (boo! Communist!) etc etc. You have been told who to support, but you have never acquired the intellectual apparatus to make decisions of your own, or even to see the huge inconsistencies in your expressed political positions. Dumb as a box of rocks, but really very very funny.

  13. Tony Garcia

    “We can discuss this in greater deal.”

    I’m sorry Enrique but we can’t. You have repeatedly shown to us that you are ready to blame Finns for racism, even when there is no evidence, but won’t ever accept immigrants can be very racist against Finns. It’s very said the see this, I’m sorry to say, but you are the way you are, and that’s it.

    A anonymous (oh yep, you do accept anonymity is that bash Finns) letter telling about a suppose fight between Finns and a black IS a solid, beyond the doubt, case of racism, but a case, confessed in court, of brutal rape committed against a white Finn by a refugee is just part of life, nothing to worry about it.

    You know, I’d like to see you talking to this girl, or the other who has been attacked in Tampere last week. I’d like to see you looking in their eyes telling them that Finland is far better off having these people around. That they should be “sensible Finns” and understand that denying sex to those refuges brakes their yooman rites. And, most importantly, that they should stop being racist and celebrate the “enrichment” that “diversity” is bringing to them.

  14. Tony Garcia

    By the way, you didn’t comment about the article. It is totally wrong, isn’t? You should write to the editor explaining that Finland is not and has never been homogeneous. Finland has always been multicultural and they should stop being racist and stop saying that. Also you could tell tem the homogeneity never brings excellence as claimed, but only pity nationalism, racism, and xenophobia. And rather then build a strong and solid nation only destroy it.

    I’m sure an inexperienced paper like the Washington Post could use some help from you to get this right.

  15. Klay_Immigrant

    First Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany now Prime Minister David Cameron of the U.K.

    ‘ State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron’

    ‘David Cameron has criticised “state multiculturalism” in his first speech on radicalisation and the causes of terrorism as prime minister.’

    ‘At a security conference in Germany, he argued the UK needed a stronger national identity to prevent people turning to all kinds of extremism. ‘

    ‘He said under the “doctrine of state multiculturalism”, different cultures have been encouraged to live separate lives.’

    “We have failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong. We have even tolerated these segregated communities behaving in ways that run counter to our values.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994

  16. Klay_Immigrant

    So here we have the leaders of the two biggest and most powerful countries in the EU denouncing multiculturalism. That gives a clear indication of the success of this social engineering experiment.

  17. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    ‘He said under the “doctrine of state multiculturalism”, different cultures have been encouraged to live separate lives.’

    This more literally describes apartheid. If it has really been State policy, then Cameron should be able to say more clearly what he means and specify the legislation in question and the administrative mechanism of the alleged encouragement.

    We have failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong.

    To provide any such vision would be the essence of the social engineering that Mr Cameron’s party has vigorously opposed over the last 40 years. Now suddenly he is saying that it is the job of government to plan and predetermine normative social and economic parameters for the realm? That would be a radical departure indeed.

    It is ironic that both the present and previous UK governments have waffled on about the importance of values while assiduously neglecting precisely this aspect of their principal function. Any government that was serious about values would have taken steps to introduce a Bill of Rights that clearly defined the limits of executive power and individual liberty, coupled with a Constitutional Court empowered to enforce adherence to these limits.

  18. Tony Garcia

    This speech from Cameron is just another nail in the Multiculturalism coffin. I think it may ha been a good idea at the starting, Italians, Spanish, Germans moving around and bringing their wine, pizza or sausage is really not that bad idea, but the problem started when Africans and Muslims join the game. All of sudden things turned ugly, very ugly.

    But as Prager says – “been on the left means you never have to say sorry”. So they created the perfect shield – “Islamophobia”.

    You don’t agree with child mutilation? You are an Islamophibic.

    You don’t think Muslims should be allowed to discriminate against women? Islamophobic.

    You call the police when a Muslim brake into your house with an axe to kill you? You’re definitely an Islamophobic.

    And so it has been for years, but you can’t fool everybody for too long. But the good news is, Cameron’s speech will resonate in Finland quite well…

  19. William O'Gorman

    It is a shame that people will hear about this speech and pretty much take what they want from it. Mulitculturalism has failed- what a statement. I guess then only monoculturalism can survive then. Right so….best start building that wall around every country and cut off all ties. I found the article to be about extremism which is…extreme… and not the average.

    If multuculturalism is dead then a question to all those who agree with this- what do you do now? and try to answer by remembering how big international trade is for a small country like Finland.

  20. StiflersDad

    If multuculturalism is dead then a question to all those who agree with this- what do you do now? and try to answer by remembering how big international trade is for a small country like Finland.

    One should not confuse the movement of goods with the movement of people. If you look at some of the largest exporters in the world (e.g. China, Japan and Saudi Arabia), they certainly do not consist of immigration friendly societies. In fact, the list of succesful economies feature both very open societies and some very closed societies. Many of my black african colleagues rate China, and Far East in general, as the most unpleasant places to travel for work…but the lure of money and trade makes them go back time after time. Thinking back further, the fact that most African states continued to trade with Apartheid South Africa shows that usually money talks and morals walk.

    Also, Finland’s exports are highly concentrated into Russia, Germany, United States, United Kingdom, and Sweden. None of these countries are likely to stop trade with Finland on the back of tighter immigration – they are all moving towards tighter immigration control themselves. If you want to consider two-way trade then Chinese imports become important; they will also have little interest about Finland’s policies in their trade decisions.

    From a financial perspective, the countries that Finland might upset if public policy shifts towards tighter immigration are insignificant individually. One can probably also assume that any changes to preferred trading partners will be a relative game – if Europe is almost universally moving towards less porous borders then any change in Finland’s policies is unlike to hurt its competitiveness.

  21. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘If multuculturalism is dead then a question to all those who agree with this- what do you do now? and try to answer by remembering how big international trade is for a small country like Finland.’

    Depends on the country. Countries like Britain and France can never realistically go back to a profile where there are only small minorities and monoculturalism. It’s too late for them, when you have illiterally millions of people in your own country opposed to your way of life and culture then the battle is lost. It’s just a damage limitation exercise. No one on this blog or from any sensible party has advocated for forced repatriation so there is no solution.

    Finland on the other hand has it’s destiny in it’s own hands right now just like Britain had in the early 1950’s. The immigrant population is small enough especially from 3rd World countries in Finland to put policies in place for successful assimilation and integration. They should have very strict requirements for future 3rd World citizens to reside in Finland (good education, skills, job offer). The open door policy from EU countries can continue as their citizens don’t create problems. Tell me William how does limiting uneducated citizens from poor countries coming to Finland affect International trade? It doesn’t. Anyway apart from imports from China and exports to Russia all the main trading partners are within the EU.

  22. Tony Garcia

    Wall? with wall? The problem with some people is that they try confuse the debate. No one is talking about immigration but multiculturalism. No one is advocating close the doors, in some cases, like Finland, is quite the opposite, good immigration must be increased, not reduced.

    The discussion is that multiculturalism has failed, and governments are starting to admit that, Ireland did, than Germany, now UK.

    What Finland needs is a health immigration policy with good incentives to groups witch are well know for they professional skills and ease assimilation, at the same time creating tougher rules to drastically reduce immigration from groups known for their violence lack of skills.

    • Enrique

      –No one is advocating close the doors, in some cases, like Finland, is quite the opposite, good immigration must be increased, not reduced.

      Then tell us the plan. Just say it in plain English.

      Stating that culturally diverse societies is like saying in the US in the 1960s the same thing. So? What now? If you ask me, the politicians are the culprits. They are totally lost and now they blame immigrants for their failures.

  23. xyz

    Most of the immigrants living in Finland come here because they have family or a spouse here.

    Tony, you always talk about assimilation. Can you tell us why you have not assimilated yet to Finland even so you have lived here for years? I have asked you this question already 3 times and never got any answer from you.

  24. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Half of turnover of large Finnish corporations comes from developing economies’

    Yeah xyz from that article they are talking about Nokia and ‘seven other large Finnish companies.’ What about all the other medium to small businesses who make up the majority of the economy? So I stand by my statement as it reflects the whole economy not a few large companies. Finland isn’t exactly blessed with a great number of huge multi-national companies compared to it’s European counterparts. But nice try anyway.

  25. Klay_Immigrant

    If you want stats no country outside the EU other than China or Russia has a share higher than 5% for exports or imports from or to Finland.

  26. Klay_Immigrant

    For both Africa and Middle East combined their share is only 4.4% for Finnish exports and 1.5% for imports to Finland. That’s tiny when you consider the number of countries involved. Just because their population are increasing doesn’t mean they are rising markets as they have to be more prosperous too which isn’t happening unlike China.

  27. xyz

    If labor costs increase in China companies will look for new countries where labor costs is low. This is happening already. Companies relocate production for example from China to Vietnam. This was also the case with Nokia who relocated manufacturing from Germany to Romania.

    Also this is interesting to read:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/7868154/Investment-the-emerging-markets-of-the-future.html

    By 2030, about half or more of the purchasing power of the global economy will stem from the developing world, says the World Bank’s Global Economic Prospects 2007.
    http://ifcblog.ifc.org/emergingmarketsifc/2006/12/emerging_market.html

  28. xyz

    Investments, Jobs and Education is important in those regions. This will also lead to more stable political systems and ultimately to a form of democracy in the long term. The issue I have with Tony and Klay is that they minimize everything on religion and skin color.

  29. xyz

    What about all the other medium to small businesses who make up the majority of the economy? So I stand by my statement as it reflects the whole economy not a few large companies.
    -Why should SMEs not be able to export to developing countries?

  30. xyz

    You can even get assistance from the Finnish government if you want to set up a business in a developing country:
    http://www.finnfund.fi/julkaisut/fi_FI/esite/_files/84416504173233559/default/Finnpartnership%20brochure%20%28EN%29%202009.pdf

    This seems to be also a problem for SMEs in Finland:
    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Finnish+small+and+medium-sized+companies+reluctant+to+seek+growth/1076154400658

    Foreign companies do grow faster than domestic ones:
    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Foreign+companies+in+Finland+grow+faster+than+Finnish-owned+companies/1135226323439

  31. JusticeDemon

    This editorial from the Observer provides the best commentary so far published on the remarks of David Cameron at the Munich Security Conference.

    The comments below the line exemplify the usual blend of well informed thoughtful analysis and tribal claptrap that will be familiar to regular readers of this blog.

    • Enrique

      JusticeDemon, this was an excellent and well-rounded editorial by the Observer.

      “But wishing it were so will not get him any closer to achieveing that goal. Nor will caricaturing multiculturalism as some sinister big state project to undermine national unity get him closer to fostering collective solidarity.

      The problems Mr Cameron identifies are not new. Headline-grabbing rhetorical flourishes are no substitute for policy solutions.”

    • Enrique

      One of the interesting matters one notices on this blog and in public debate that there is one big matter missing: How do we make our culturally diverse societies to work and reap synergies? There are goog cases in the United States, Argentina, Canada and Australia where inclusion has been gained. Sounding off the alarms without giving any solutions is not the way to go. The problem, I believe, few have the faintest idea where we are supposed to go on this front. That is why they should look to the Americas for better models.

  32. Tony Garcia

    “How do we make our culturally diverse societies to work and reap synergies?”

    Well, once Finland is not a culturally diverse society yet, as well explained by the Washington Post article, we don’t really need to make it work but prevent it from being culturally diverse. We solve the problem by not let it happen in the first place.

    “this was an excellent and well-rounded editorial by the Observer.”

    An left-wing paper disagreeing with a Conservative, what a surprise… Enrique agreeing with a left-wing paper, what an ever bigger surprise…

    • Enrique

      –Well, once Finland is not a culturally diverse society yet.

      I disagree. That is a myth that was the basis of Finland’s “national identity” in the previous century. The fact that there are over 1 million people who are Finns and have Finnish ancestry abroad throws this argument in the dustbin. You can also read Antero Letiziger’s “Ulkomaalaiset Suomessa 1812–1972.” His main argument is that Finland was always culturally diverse.

      But what is interesting to ask is why Finland took the “we are monocultural” road and turned its back on their country men who left as immigrants to other countries? If you uncover that question you will understand many of the ethnic hangups that this country has.

  33. xyz

    Tony, that’s a good idea. You can be the first who will not move to Finland…otherwise it will get to diverse here 🙂 You still didn’t answer my question why you don’t speak Finnish after all the years in Finland? (asked it 4 times already)

  34. Tony Garcia

    Here is another opinion about Cameron’s speech…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/8304545/The-days-of-doing-deals-with-Muslim-extremists-are-over.html

    “We think of everything about the Middle East as “abroad”, but many of the truths about the state of the Muslim world are also home truths.

    This afternoon, in Munich, David Cameron will tell some of these home truths. As I mentioned in this column a couple of weeks ago, the Prime Minister has become exasperated by the way much of the permanent bureaucracy, in its attempt to counter violent extremism, ends up appeasing it.

    Coming at the subject from his Big Society, “we’re all in this together” perspective, Mr Cameron finds the opposite – a sectarian world in which Muslims are encouraged by extremist leaders to identify themselves in as aggressive and separate a way as possible. They are taught to aerate their grievances in order to get political power and public money.

    He will point out that it is often Muslim professionals born here, and prospering in middle-class freedom, who are most radicalised. He is horrified that young men educated at some of our best universities pick up noxious ideas from some student Islamic societies. He is caustic about the double standard which defends such ideas in the name of academic freedom: this would never happen if they were the vapourings of white racists.

    He blames Islamist doctrine – the political ideology advocated by the Muslim Brotherhood under the cloak, or rather the veil, of religion – as the bad thought from which bad actions naturally spring. It fills the dangerous vacuum created by multi-culturalism.

    Islamists believe that Islam is a Nation and no other entity deserves respect. Mr Cameron’s 21st-century version of One Nation Conservatism is a full-on rejection of that. “

  35. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, when you are right, you are, and no one can deny it. My arguments here are all indeed “Islamophobics”, aren’t they?

    “Terrorism isn’t right – how can it be? But I think that A LOT of people are a bit confused about what is right and why.”

    “I was at university in London when [radical cleric] Abu Hamza was preaching at Finsbury Park Mosque…They’re very passionate in the way they talk. Someone can quote something and convince you.”

    “I see people who are brainwashed already and they don’t listen to the arguments…They are hypnotised and believe that extremism is the way to paradise…They still turn up and stand outside the mosque handing out their leaflets. I want to know why the prime minister doesn’t ban these people.”

  36. xyz

    The article says that the internet is a very important source for fanatics and it seems that many young people do actually not really know who they should believe. Would it not make sense if communities or schools would support proper teaching of a religion and also about other religions in order to understand each other?

  37. StiflersDad

    There are goog cases in the United States, Argentina, Canada and Australia where inclusion has been gained

    If you consider the fact that 99% of the debate here revolves around immigration into Finland from non-Western countries, it would be fair to note that for purposes of this blog none of the above countries could be considered particularly diverse. People of European descent, Accoring to Wikipedia, make up 80% of population in US and in Canada, more than 85% of population in Argentina, and 90% of Australians. I know almost nothing about South America, but the non-European population has recently grown fast in the other three countries (i.e. the percentages above describe current situation rather than the long-term view). From recent visits I know that immigration is a heated topic at least in US and Australia.

    What is quite interesting is that both US and Argentina have large neighbours that are more diversified demographically. Brazil’s population seems to be roughly a 50/50 split between European and non-European origin, and while Mexico is probably the most diverse mix of people anywhere. Neither of the diverse neighbours come close to their more homogenous neighbours in terms of economic conditions or general living standards.

    Everytime someone mentions Australia or Canada as examples of succesful multi-cultural societies they are actually promoting the idea of very controlled and selective immigration policy. Both countries are well known for particularly strict and merit-based entry requirements. I’m pretty sure that most Finns would be happy with immigration policies modelled off the Australian model. These “cherry picking” models, however, might not be morally fair either e.g. South African government accuses Canada of hurting their public healthcare system due to taking in of thousands of South African doctors. As an example of double standards in Australia’s “exemplary model of multi-culturalism”, consider the fact that Australia takes in only around 200 Somalis per annum, but are happy to take in 5,000 white South Africans per annum.

    • Enrique

      –People of European descent, Accoring to Wikipedia, make up 80% of population in US and in Canada, more than 85% of population in Argentina, and 90% of Australians.

      StiflersDad the communities in the United States, Canada and even Argentina are more diverse than 40 years ago. You are well aware that people like the Chinese, Indians were not allowed to move to Canada and the United States. I would suspect that the high birth rate of socially disadvantaged Argentineans, whom many are Mestizos, has displaced the “predominantely” European face of Argentina.
      As you know, identity is a complex matter and with it rides power: political and economic. Even so, I think it is important that we steer from seeing people as ethnicities. I believe that is what men like Martin Luther King envisioned when he saw the future of the United States and that his daughters would be judged by their character.

      In other words, judging and excluding people because of their physical traits is pretty much questionable. What societies like the United States and others have shown us is that ethnicity has very little to do with who we are. More relevant are the social aspects that mold us into whom others want to see us.

      That is why, when we speak about immigration, we should forget these antiquated and racist ways of looking at the world. What is important to us is not the ethnicity but skills.

    • Enrique

      –Which countries are we talking about?

      The lion’s share live in the United States and Sweden.

  38. xyz

    Everytime someone mentions Australia or Canada as examples of succesful multi-cultural societies they are actually promoting the idea of very controlled and selective immigration policy.
    -But they are still multi-cultural, or not?

    Australians identify with some 250 ancestries and practise a range of religions. In addition to Indigenous languages, around 200 other languages are spoken in Australia. After English, the most common languages spoken are Italian, Greek, Cantonese, Arabic and Mandarin.
    http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/08abolition.htm

    • Enrique

      xyz, I think that some countries in Europe, due to their histories, have their head stuck too deep in the sands of a monocultural fallacy based on fiction; they are like myths that we tell ourselves to get ready to wage war on our enemies and pillage their wealth. This has changed but we still have a long way to go.

  39. Tony Garcia

    “The lion’s share is the United States and Sweden.”

    Sorry but I’m lost here, this million of yours are Finns who has gone abroad or whose parents/grandparents/etc. came from abroad?

    • Enrique

      If you look at North America and Sweden from 1860-1999, we are talking about 970,000 Finns emigrating to these regions. From that has surfaced the children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. There are about 1.2 million people who are Finns by birth or still consider themselves with Finnish ancestry.

  40. xyz

    Enrique, yes I agree. I suppose it is also important to become a bit more “open minded” since we have the EU nowadays. I think it would be great if we would have a common EU language.

  41. StiflersDad

    Australians identify with some 250 ancestries and practise a range of religions. In addition to Indigenous languages, around 200 other languages are spoken in Australia. After English, the most common languages spoken are Italian, Greek, Cantonese, Arabic and Mandarin

    If you believe that definition of multi-cultural is “>90% of European descent” then it is multi-cultural. Multi-cultural in the Australian sense is that Englishmen have had to adjust to living with the Irish, Italians and Greeks over the years (granted, that must have been a test for them!).

    As a matter of interest, there are nearly 200 countries listed in the Finnish Immigration statistics as countries of origin. In addition to indigenous Sami, more than 100 languages (my guess based on number of nationalities) are spoken. After Finnish the most spoken languages are Russian, Estonian, English, Somali, and Arabic. There is freedom of religion with all major religions being represented in the country.

  42. Tony Garcia

    Thanks, now I understood. The fact the Finns are going abroad doesn’t make Finland multicultural or diverse (maybe the countries where they are going to, but not Finland), the other way around would though. Sorry but you are a bit confused…

    • Enrique

      –Thanks, now I understood. The fact the Finns are going abroad doesn’t make Finland multicultural or diverse (maybe the countries where they are going to, but not Finland), the other way around would though. Sorry but you are a bit confused…

      That’s all a matter of perspective. But how do you explain about 500 years of Swedish and about 100 years of Russian rule? What about the the over million immigrants? And from those we get a “monocultural” society. It sounds pretty fishy to me.

  43. xyz

    Multi-cultural in the Australian sense is that Englishmen have had to adjust to living with the Irish, Italians and Greeks over the years…
    -Did anybody ask the Aborigines if they want to live with the Englishmen? Even the English are immigrants to Australia. Seems that the Irish, Italians and Greeks also need to adjust living with the Englishmen? As Enrique said…it’s a two way road. I am planning to go to a Finnish course again this year since I got a job in Finland now.

  44. xyz

    Tony, why should somebody move to Finland if there are no jobs. Finns went abroad because they saw better perspectives in other countries. That’s usually the motivation to move to another country. Got it?

  45. xyz

    Another motivation nowadays would be that you move to another country because you are in a relationship with somebody. How can it happen that you are in a relationship with a foreigner? You could meet this person because you took part in an exchange program of your University, traveling, internet, … unfortunately, we do not live in the stone age anymore.

  46. Tony Garcia

    So now immigrants make not only the destination country multicultural but also their country of origin… Enrique, please, open a window, you are running out of thin air.

    Also Swedish, they make Finland multicultural. The difference between a Finn and a Swedish is…???

    An Russians… Oh yes, one drinks Smirnoff and the other Koskenkorva, quite a difference alright.

    My friend and this is diversity, I have no problem with whatsoever. As I said multiculturalism may have been a good idea when Europeans were moving around, but when Africans and Muslims joined the game, things turned ugly…

    • Enrique

      –So now immigrants make not only the destination country multicultural but also their country of origin… Enrique, please, open a window, you are running out of thin air.

      You grew up in a different society than I. Moreover, it appears that your view of Brazilian society is quite insular. I don’t mean it as an insult but see it as a loss.

  47. Tony Garcia

    By the way, once you are writing to the Washington Post to tell their “mistake” about the Finnish ethnic makeup you could also CC the US Dep. of State. I’m afraid they also made the same “mistake”…

    • Enrique

      –By the way, once you are writing to the Washington Post to tell their “mistake” about the Finnish ethnic makeup you could also CC the US Dep. of State.

      If I had to choose between Leitziger and a Washington Post article on their take of Finland’s multicultural background, guess which one I would give the thumbs up to.

  48. Tony Garcia

    Enrique let me ask you a question. This is the third time a European government denounces multiculturalism as failed. In 2009 was Conor Lenihan, the Irish Minister for Integration. Last year was Merkel, and now Cameron.

    All the three times the same thing happened. Muslims leaders setup up to criticize those comments, and also liberals criticized those comments on behave of Muslims. Like before, all articles I read today about Cameron’s speech have the words Muslim or Islam in it.

    Fair enough, but I wonder, where are the Buddhist leaders? Why they didn’t say anything about this? How about the liberal articles defending Buddhism? In the same line, how about Jews? Or Chinese? Or Indus? Or even Latinos for that matter?

    Tell me, is it fair to say that in today’s Europe (or at least in today’s European mindset) Multiculturalism is synonymous of Islam?

  49. StiflersDad

    Enrique – thanks for that. Your link from 1998 mentions visible minorities (i.e. non-white) of 11%. Current population statistics show that visible minorities have increased to 16% of total population. This obviously means that in immigration numbers visible-minorities (I love the Americans’ ability to create new words) must have been much higher in the c.10 years between the data points.

    Another interesting aspect about the Canadian numbers, in both your link and current reports, is the whole issue of “Canadian-only”. These are people who do not acknowledge originating from other countries. These people are of European descent, although they think of themselves as only Canadian (which is probably a good feature for nation building etc).

    Original Canadians, an in Indian or Inuit, make up less than 4% of the population. These 4% are included also in the visible-minorities of 16% I quoted earlier. The Wikipedia information on Canada also shows a very interesting quirk…Indian / Inuit origin was less than 1% of the population in 1960s. It seems that there has been a population explosion in aboriginal (the term used by Canadians themselves) population in the last 40-50 years. My guess is that actually what happened is (1) people become more willing to claim aboriginal background as it become less of a stigma (good reason), and (2) some chancers started to claim 1/16th Indian background etc to qualify for loans, employment or other affirmative action policies when these were implemented in the intervening years (bad reason).

  50. JusticeDemon

    Substitute Jew for Moslem in the remarks of Tony the Toby, and you could easily be reading Nazi propaganda from the 1930s.

    Where did all of those ideological Nazis run away to in the late 1940s anyway?

    It is always easier to hate than to understand.

  51. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, I told my wife about your theory of Finland being multicultural, and what you use to support it. She was… er… let’s say… “surprised” by such revelation, but nevertheless she said she’ll let her parents to know that they are half Irish now.

    • Enrique

      Well at least that is the case now. I believe more debate is needed on what Finnish identity is. It is a fascinating subject.

  52. Tony Garcia

    And, you didn’t answer my question. Why when a big figures in Europe criticise multiculturalism only Muslims and left-wingers-Islam-sympathisers go on attack? Where are the other groups?

    I might be wrong, but I have a felling that the Argentinean community in the UK is not giving a shit about all of this.

    • Enrique

      –And, you didn’t answer my question. Why when a big figures in Europe criticise multiculturalism only Muslims and left-wingers-Islam-sympathisers go on attack? Where are the other groups?

      Do you think so? Maybe the truth is that everyone claims to be doing somthing “good” on this front but the truth is that nobody is doing very much. If you want people to be a part of society you have to include them. In Finland we don’t have a general idea of how to include immigrants and their children. They have this funny term at school, MMT, which is the acronym for immigrant background. Why is that important to point out? How but something like this: Mutual acceptance and respect and equal opportunity. Being different is not an issue because we are all from the same community. We accept each other.

    • Enrique

      The Tampere shooting should be denounced. There is no reason for anyone to be going around with a gun and shooting people in public spaces. It is something we condemn forcefully. Bad news coming out of Tampere.

  53. Klay_Immigrant

    ‘TV boss Muzzammil Hassan found guilty of beheading wife’

    ‘A New York television executive has been convicted of stabbing his wife to death and beheading her.’

    ‘Hassan, who founded a Muslim-oriented TV network, could face life in prison.’

    ‘Prosecutors argued Hassan abused his wife and planned the attack in a hallway at Bridges TV, a satellite channel he set up in 2004 in an effort to counter negative portrayals of Muslims following the 9/11 terror attacks.’

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12388540

    Sometimes you just can’t make these stories up! Normal medieval practice for some I guess but the fact that his career was to show Muslims in a good light makes this even more unbelievable.

    • Enrique

      –‘A New York television executive has been convicted of stabbing his wife to death and beheading her.’

      Klay, sadly I could show some pretty outlandish crimes done by “whites.” What is the point? To pin and label a whole group? You know very well that people are individuals in society.

  54. Tony Garcia

    “…a satellite channel he set up in 2004 in an effort to counter negative portrayals of Muslims following the 9/11 terror attacks.”

    Well, he’s doing a great job, isn’t he?

    BTY, Klay have you heard that, apparently, the shooting in Tampere was between 2 Lutherans?

  55. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique the point is if this was a story about a Muslim shop owner who stabbed his wife to death then I wouldn’t have highlighted it, as it is nothing unusual, but the fact that he went out of his way and carved a career out of trying to change the negative perception of Muslims and then chops off the head of his wife makes this case strange and bizarre.

    -‘You know very well that people are individuals in society.’

    Ah the old tried and tested excuse for those who go out of line and ruin your theories. We both know that if a Finnish company director point blank refused to hire immigrants you wouldn’t say that about him but claim there is a problem in Finland’s employment practices.

  56. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘BTY, Klay have you heard that, apparently, the shooting in Tampere was between 2 Lutherans?’

    Who would have thought that an Iraqi and an Iranian would bring their neighbour tensions from the 1980’s all the way to Tampere resulting in murder. The joys of multiculturalism. You just knew that when the police said foreign individuals were involved that they had to be Muslims. Should have gone to the bookies to place my bet (not that I would get good odds).

  57. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony if a Finn shot and killed an immigrant, Enrique and co. would tell all immigrants to lock themselves in their homes and only go out when escorted by UN peace troops as all Finns are potential killers and a new holocaust may be on the horizon.

  58. Tony Garcia

    Yep, if you only convict but don’t deport them you’ll have problems again…

    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Police+apprehend+Tampere+gunman+suspect+has+a+considerable+criminal+record/1135263646178

    Aamulehti also reports that the suspect is one of the Iranian brothers who took part in a violent confrontation in July last year, while the victim is an Iraqi man who was on the opposite side of the clash.

    All four men were convicted for their roles in the previous incident.

    • Enrique

      Tony, do you want me to begin to write about how Finns are all guntoting nuts? What about if I discredit ALL of the Finns for the sad crimes that some of their members committed? You are not playing fair.

    • Enrique

      Here is an interesting comment I picked up in Uusi Suomi especially for Tony and Klay

      Mika Eiramaa

      “… Ranskan uutisissa ihmeteltiin viime viikolla suomalaista ilmiötä. Suomessa naisiin kohdistuu enemmän väkivaltaa kuin missään muussa Euroopan unionin maassa. Ranskassa tieto yllätti, koska Suomessa on samalla eniten itsenäisiä ja työssäkäyviä naisia. –Naisiin kohdistuvan väkivallan taustat eivät ole yksiselitteisiä, toteaa Pietikäinen.”
      http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/109078-%E2%80%9Dvakivaltainen-suomi-ihme

      Tämäkö on “suomalainen” ilmiö? Ranskalaisetkin kyllä arvaavat, ettei ole. Ote yhteiskunta-analyytikon kirjoituksesta:

      “Tilastokeskuksen rikostilastot ovat saaneet viime aikoina erityishuomiota. Ne kun jaottelevat rikoksentekijät monien mielestä poliittisen korrektiuden unohtaen kansalaisuuden mukaan http://www.stat.fi/til/syyttr/2009/syyttr_2009_201… ja jopa syntymämaan mukaan http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135233947201.j

      Empiirisiä tietoja raiskaustapausten tai pelkkien ilmoitusten lisääntymisestä on saatu lehdistä ja poliisiltakin, tosin ilman kansalaisuustietoja…
      Muiden muassa vähemmistövaltuutettu Eva Biaudet on kommentoinut tilastoja todeten niiden olevan omiaan herättämään “suuren yleisön” keskuudessa epäoikeutettujakin tulkintoja ja ennakkoluuloja. Yhdyn Biaudet’n huoleen, joskaan en kaikilta osin ymmärrä hänen argumentointiaan tässä Ruben Stillerin Pressiklubissa http://areena.yle.fi/video/1650680

      Ohjelmassa käsiteltiin tilastoa, jonka mukaan 20 % raiskauksista on ulkomaalaisten tekemiä, vaikka ulkomaan kansalaisten osuus koko väestöstä on vain muutama prosentti. Toisten tietojen mukaan pääkaupunkiseudun raiskaustapauksissa jopa puolessa epäiltynä on ulkomaalaistaustainen mies.”

      Lue kokonaisuudessaan: http://mikaeiramaaknfijv.puheenvuoro.uusisuomi.fi/60791-ryssittiinko-kot

    • Enrique

      The issue about violence against women in Finland is a serious matter. How do we react to it? Do we label and brand all Finnish men as violent alcoholics?

  59. Tony Garcia

    “Do we label and brand all Finnish men as violent alcoholics?”

    It’s not about label by recognize the problem without fear of “offend” the culprits, so we can try to find solutions for it. Alcohol IS a big problem in Finland and most of Finnish domestic violence, and other violence for that matter, IS result of it. The problem is that one would have no hassle discussing alcohol in Finland, no once would call him Finnophobic, however you dare to talk about Muslim violence, and we all know what would happen.

    • Enrique

      –It’s not about label by recognize the problem without fear of “offend” the culprits,

      So an immigrant commits a crime and we are afraid to convict him? Hmmmm. I know you didn’t mean this but I don’t catch your drift.

  60. Tony Garcia

    Here is a good example of the the double standards culture we live in today…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/8309491/You-can-be-racist-about-any-colour-so-long-as-its-white.html

    Then again, there are still times when it seems to be fine to talk witheringly about a race. Yesterday, a Left-wing national newspaper ran an article about a band called The Vaccines. Its headline: “Sick of dull white-boy indie rock? The Vaccines have the cure.”

    I wonder whether the same newspaper would run an article asking if we were sick of “black-boy hip hop”.

  61. JusticeDemon

    Tony the TobyJug

    Yep, if you only convict but don’t deport them you’ll have problems again…

    Where did you get the idea that deportation was an option in this case?

    Never let crass ignorance and prejudice stop you from speaking your mind, eh Toby?

  62. Tony Garcia

    “So an immigrant commits a crime and we are afraid to convict him? “

    No, you are afraid to talk about violence committed by immigrants in general and Muslims in particularly. When someone do it you run with your usual “Islamophobic”.

    • Enrique

      –No, you are afraid to talk about violence committed by immigrants in general and Muslims in particularly.

      I think that we speak of crime in general we don’t go around saying that watch out for this group etc. I think the problem may be that you just want to speak about one sort of crime and brand a group in the process. Democratic societies don’t work that way. Maybe autocratic ones do.

  63. xyz

    Man Tony, you are really a brainwashed fanatic. It’s the character of a person not the religion nor a nationality. If you can’t understand it then it makes no sense to discuss this further.

  64. Tony Garcia

    “I think the problem may be that you just want to speak about one sort of crime and brand a group in the process. “

    Isn’t that what you do only talking about racism coming from Finns?

  65. xyz

    ”Islamophobia should not be encouraged. The hatred or fear of Muslims is dangerous, depriving one group of people of the protection of law. If social integration fails, an individual becomes marginalised, which tends to lead to radicalization and mutual racism. The religion itself does not radicalize anybody, but unequal treatment and loss of human dignity do”

    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/How+soon+will+immigrants+assimilate+into+the+mainstream/1135263652415

    • Enrique

      –“Is it racially motivated or provoked? I don’t know? Do you?”

      Does the Aamulehti article call it racism? Did they hear them say “I’m going to kill you white boy?” The person who wrote the letter to the editor of Turun Sanomat said he heard these types of insults. That is the difference. This may be motivated by crime, a provocation — it does not give further information.

  66. Tony Garcia

    Did Turun Sanomat even write an article about it? Did this suppose witness head the insults before or after the supposed attack began? A racist insult after a fight breaks makes the fight racially motivated? Was the supposed insults and the consequently attack motivated by a crime, a provocation? The anonymous letter does not give further information.

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