Nipping fascism, Nazi-spirited and far-right ideology in the bud in Finland

by , under Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

After most of the Finnish media was taken for a long and extensive ride by the Perussuomalaiset (PS) party, Migrant Tales  has warned on numerous occasions about the threat the party poses is not only to immigrants, visible minorities and Finns with international backgrounds, but to our whole society. The Helena Eronen scandal, when she wrote about sleeve emblems, is another case in point. 

Tuomas Muraja, Turun Sanomat’s foreign editor, the daily that published the story on Eronen’s column, says outright that history will see PS chairman Timo Soini as the man who brought the “aggressive far-right” to parliament.

The whole scandal reveals a lot about what Eronen thinks about our democratic institutions and institutions like the media.  After the attraction that her blog entry caused in Finland and abroad, Eronen is now planning to sue Turun Sanomat for defamation.

Her writing about sleeve emblems and her boss, PS MP James Hirvisaari, who was fined by a court for hate speech in December, say a lot about Eronen. She used to advertise openly on her Uusi Suomi blog profile belonging to the anti-immigration Muutos2011 party.

Another factor that sheds more light on her far-right anti-immigration ideology is that she visited Auschwitz in 2007 and knew where people were some exterminated during the Holocaust. Here more on the topic by Ossi Mäntylahti.

Jews were forced by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe to wear a yellow Star of David. This is satire, right?

As if missing totally the point, Eronen blames the Turku-based daily for the bad press she attracted. She conveniently forgets that it was what she wrote that was unacceptable, especially coming from a parliamentary aide.

Those who visit our blog regularly have noted by now that every month  there is a scandal coming from the PS. The lion’s share of the scandals hinge on racism, homophobia, offering medals to cold-blooded killers, as well as an eerie fascination for fascism, Nazi-spirited and far-right ideology.

Muraja correctly states that the whole Eronen scandal and what she wrote wasn’t satire at all but exposed far-right or Nazi-spirited ideology with humor or as a joke. Spreading fascist, Nazi-spirited and racist jokes are nothing new by these groups. Such writings are primarily meant for their followers even if they are published online.

Another important aim of this type of questionable satire and jokes by groups like Suomen Sisu is to move the goalposts in order to make racism, and the ideology that supports it, “normal” to common voters.

Will they succeed depends on our reaction and how deeply we want to bury our heads in the sand.  The only reason why there are far-right MPs in parliament is because we have given them a mandate. It is now our job to take it away from them.

How? The answer lies in our democratic institutions and most importantly in our values: independent media, vigilant public, and leadership.

In many respects what happened in April 2011 is due to many factors: the financial scandals that rocked the Center Party, the EU financial crisis and the bailout of Portugal a week before the election, but most importantly traditional parties lacking courage and leadership to challenge the PS.

Migrant Tales writes shortly after the election:  “Another factor that spurred the PS to new heights was a watershed statement in March 2010 by Kokoomus chairman Jyrki Katainen, who stated that being critical and debating immigrant issues in this country didn’t make you a racist. After that green light to racism was given, the Social Democratic leadership gave the PS another pat on the back with their infamous saying, maassa maan tavalla.”

Even if we respect the election result we can passionately express our opposition to the political agenda of a party like the PS.

Unless we want to turn Finland into a country where fascism, far-right and Nazi-spirited ideology have a clear mandate, our media, politicians and the general public will have to do much better.

  1. Farang

    Enrique, as well as there are people like you, there are also people who will vote them in parliament again 🙂 So there’s nothing much you can do, your discriminating and untruthful blog will not stop them.

    If you want some change, you need to do it by truth, not by spreading lies.

    Eronen didn’t make any references to Nazis but yet you and other reporters have put those Nazi references in every article you write about Eronen. It has already been pointed at you that if you follow the same logic, then also drinking Fanta has Nazi-references.

    Mentally healthy and honest person understands that if someone says or does something that Nazis also did, it doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Nazis. You need to remember that Nazis also walked, ate, slept, wore clothes etc. You can’t say that everyone who does those things nowadays is a Nazi.

    I know you understand this, because you are not stupid. It only means that you write dishonestly.

  2. I am

    Her writing about sleeve emblems and her boss, PS MP James Hirvisaari, who was fined by a court for hate speech in December, say a lot about Eronen. She used to advertise openly on her Uusi Suomi blog profile belonging to the anti-immigration Muutos2011 party

    Hi MT,
    Hi Finland,How r u Finland? How r u dear world, universe
    Blessing to all
    Hi dear Farang,

    Why she used to advertise on Uusi suomi blog belong to the anti/ immigration…?

    Politic is not joke but lie Farang

    Peace to all of us for ever

  3. eyeopener

    My dear Farang.

    What was this downplaying of the Edelweiss sleeving all about?? Remember it was not Nazi was it?? I set information about the Nazi (Waffen SS-expliotation of the sleeve). By all means. The Wehrmacht was not Nazi. Where is even the lowest of your brain-capacity??

    Nazis did all these behaviors Farang. With a slight difference though. They were not systematically butchered in the concentration camps. But I think you will deny these facts too, won’t you. You would surprise me!!

  4. Anonymous

    “Anti-immigration Muutos2011 party”

    Doesn’t being an anti-immigration party mean that you want to ban immigration?

    Muutos2011 doesn’t want to do that, and you know it, so stop lying.

    • Migrant Tales

      Anonymous, Muutos2011 is in the same league as Vapauspuolue.

      “Yes… I did not understand how many crazy people gathered (around the party),” Juha Mäki-Ketlä said, adding that he was ignorant of ultra-nationalistic groups like Suomen Sisu and admitted having read a few times Jussi Halla-aho’s blog.

      Mäki-Ketelä was the founder of Muutos2011. You can read the interview here.

      I know perfectly well what is an anti-immigration party and Muutos2011 is one of them.

  5. Farang

    Eyeopener, you just proved that you are not very intelligent.

    I exactly said that YES, Nazis did those things. And then I said that it doesn’t mean that if nowadays someone does something similar that Nazis did back then, they would automatically be referencing to Nazis.

    That’s why I gave you examples. Nazis used clothes, still it doesn’t have anything to do with Nazis if someone else use clothes. And also sleeve badges are not a property of Nazis. Have you ever seen “järjestyksenvalvoja” in public events? They use sleeve badges so that people identify them. Are you calling that a nazi reference aswell?

  6. Farang

    Migrant Tales:

    “I know perfectly well what is an anti-immigration party and Muutos2011 is one of them.”

    You are pathological liar. Everyone knows that Muutos2011 is not an anti-immigration party. Still you keep lying about it. What is your problem?

    • Migrant Tales

      –Everyone knows that Muutos2011 is not an anti-immigration party.

      Except yourself. Now the next thing you’ll be claiming is that Suomen Sisu is a multicultural party. Oy vey!

  7. Farang

    In this blog one really need to come down several levels and try to talk like you talk to children when trying to explain something simple, trivial issue.

    Here’s one for Enrique:

    If I say I don’t like red cars, would you say that I don’t like cars at all? Feels stupid, doesn’t it 🙂

    That’s exactly how you draw your conclusions. If someone says he don’t like a certain immigrant, let’s say a criminal one, you immediately draw a conclusion that this person doesn’t like immigrants at all.

    Same with Muutos2001, they want to make immigration politics better. By no means they want to stop immigration. Therefore it is an arrogant lie to say it is an anti-immigration party. Do you know what anti-immigration means? Anti-immigration means that one opposes immigration. And Muutos2011 doesn’t oppose that, so how could it be anti-immigration party?

  8. BlandaUpp

    Anonymous

    Lets not bullshit each other here. In our country, “anti-immigration” is code for anti-Black. On Hakkarainen’s first day in parliament he stated clearly what his aims were and why he thought he was elected. If you visit the forums that PS voters frequent it’s abundantly clear what their real agenda is. If they were seriously concerned about crime done by immigrants, why don’t they ever speak about Russians, Estonians and Swedes who do the overwhelming majority of crime done by immigrants?

    • Migrant Tales

      –If they were seriously concerned about crime done by immigrants, why don’t they ever speak about Russians, Estonians and Swedes who do the overwhelming majority of crime done by immigrants?

      Excellent point.

  9. Elven archer

    ““I know perfectly well what is an anti-immigration party and Muutos2011 is one of them.””

    You act so clueless, maybe because you choose to? Muutos2011 is nothing but what the people want. It’s direct demoracry like in Switzerland. If people are anti-immigration and show that in a referendum, then Muutos2011 thinks the politicians should obey that will of the people. If people show they are pro-immigration, then Muutos2011 thinks the politicians should obey that will. That is the only common agenda in Muutos2011: to respect the direct democracy. To use and respect the results of referendums.

  10. Elven archer

    “In our country, “anti-immigration” is code for anti-Black.”

    Really? Please show me the proof.

    “If they were seriously concerned about crime done by immigrants, why don’t they ever speak about Russians, Estonians and Swedes who do the overwhelming majority of crime done by immigrants?”

    But they do. But let’s accept your claim and answer your question based on that (wrong) premise: for the same reason they don’t speak about the fact that the Finns do the most crime, it’s about proportional percentages. If more people do more crime, that’s normal. If less people do more crime, that’s worrying.

  11. Elven archer

    But more to the point. What about their concerns? What about they motives? Don’t get sidetracked. What about crime itself? Is it not the most important thing here which affects people the most? So, do you deny the figures about crime?

    It’s irrelevant to the matter itself if people are talking about it for the wrong reasons. The fact itself should guide the immigration policies. The fact itself is not dependent on the conversationalists. If you disagree please explain why the facts should not be the basis of making decisions?

  12. D4R

    Blandupp: If they were seriously concerned about crime done by immigrants, why don’t they ever speak about Russians, Estonians and Swedes who do the overwhelming majority of crime done by immigrants?

    Well said, this is exactly something should be asked, why is’t that these so called migrant critics are only concerned about what the dark colored people do, but the offense of Russians or Estonians, these later are the biggest criminals in Finland, but you don’t hear P.S member speaking against them, it’s fair to say that, the whole scene if this anti-imigration by P.S is racial motivated.

  13. BlandaUpp

    Elven Archer

    You’re a bald faced liar! You Homma Forum PS bigots NEVER speak about Russian, Estonian or Swedish crime even though they are proportionally higher than native Finns so don’t give me that bullshit. You’re a bunch of bigoted racists and nothing less.

  14. D4R

    Dealing with the image of the country abroad, it was the question of racism that inspired more comments than anything else. Most were quite concerned about the racism and open intolerance that had been associated with the name of the country since the True Finns party had started to attract support.
    Finns tend to think that nobody outside our country ever knows anything about what is happening here. In the years after the Second World War, Finland was above all a country of emigration, and the backwoods and boondocks were emptying into the automobile factories of Sweden: back in the 1970s, ‘Volvo’ became a synonym for ‘jobs’.
    In recent decades, though, it has turned out that foreigners are quite happy to settle down in Finland, and as regards poverty and hardship, there isn’t much left of that either. The success of the high-tech company Nokia has brought Finland into global spotlight. In my childhood days I would mostly associate Nokia with rubber boots and tyres, and it seems there still are lots of Finns who don’t understand how much things have changed.
    So when one of our domestic politicians is struck with the idea of saying something racist, he isn’t quite aware of the fact that his words will be instantly repeated in the whole of Europe and beyond. When Jussi Halla-aho, the leader of the extreme rightist faction of the True Finns party, ‘joked’ to his henchmen on Facebook that a military junta and tanks in the streets would be necessary in Greece to put its economy in order, the ‘funny’ utterance made it to the world’s media in 24 hours and was duly reported in Greece itself. Similarly, such politicians’ brutal and uncivilised utterances about Muslims and Africans cannot be kept away from the ears of Muslims and Africans anymore.
    Of course, different kinds of racism have been quite common in Finnish society, and it’s possible that there is less of it today, because since the last wave many people have got to know more and more immigrants. Besides, even capitalists in Finland understand that racism will do their business no good if their logo is associated with it. Racism is no ‘corporate value’. That’s the reason why overt racist propaganda disappeared from public discussion toward the turn of the millennium.
    This insight dawned upon business people and politicians in the 1990s. Back then, skinheads in Joensuu attacked Darryl Parker, a young black American who was playing basketball on the local team. He was so frightened by the attack that he immediately returned to the States. But something good did come out of this sad story.
    There are lots of Finns for whom sports is all there is to life, and lots of those usually take little interest in big words about tolerance and stuff. When a black athlete was victimised by skinhead violence, lots of people changed their minds about these things, and business owners and politicians understood that that racism simply wasn’t acceptable if they wanted to keep their town alive.
    But it looks like Finns need to learn their old lesson again. The expats who expressed their anxiety about what Finland’s international image has begun to look like left a country which had just learned that lesson – the way the country was in the end of the 1990s and in the first years of the new millennium. Now, though, we are back to square one, back to a time when mainstream politicians were happy to mouth racist phrases in their propaganda and the skinhead movement was growing. That’s how it looks to the expats, anyway.

  15. Elven archer

    “You’re a bald faced liar!”

    What have I lied?

    “You Homma Forum PS bigots NEVER speak about Russian, Estonian or Swedish crime even though they are proportionally higher than native Finns so don’t give me that bullshit. You’re a bunch of bigoted racists and nothing less.”

    Am I to be responsible for other people’s actions? Is it not the same kind of thinking that racists use?

  16. Elven archer

    And please answer the question about my racism? What is the basis of that very hurtful accusation?

    Now the only “reason” you have given is that I wrote in some forum, that I’m (at least you think I am) a part of some group of people. You don’t even know what I wrote in there. So I ask you what separates you from racists based on your generalizing accusations which are not talking about the matter in whole but targets me as an individual? You treat me differently as an individual because of the group you think I represent.

  17. BlandaUpp

    Elven archer

    You’re a bald faced liar because you stated that it’s about “proportional percentages”. I’m on your “immigration critical” forums and I know what you guys speak about all day every day. It comes out in the shit you write here and in the statements made by PS politicians.

    You’re not against immigration, you’re against Black people and you’re against race mixing. Your leaders Jussi Halla-Aho, James Hirvisaari, Olli Immonen and Juha Eerola are all members of Suomen Sisu, an organization that’s against race mixing.

    I’m sick of you trying to bullshit people into thinking you really care about crime done by immigrants when you NEVER tackle the overwhelming majority of immigrant criminals because they happen to be white.

    At least be man enough and show the common decency to admit that you’re a bigot and a racist and stop hiding behind your already disproven “proportional percentages” argument.

    • Mark

      BlandaUp

      Nicely said! This arrogant pay is about as slimy as they come.

  18. BlandaUpp

    Elven archer

    What separates me from you bigoted racists plugged into the Suomen Sisu/ Homma Forum hive mind is that I’m married to a foreigner and have mixed race children that have to deal with the real world aftermath of the hate that you people spread.

  19. D4R

    BlandUpp: Elven archer

    You’re a bald faced liar because you stated that it’s about “proportional percentages”. I’m on your “immigration critical” forums and I know what you guys speak about all day every day. It comes out in the shit you write here and in the statements made by PS politicians.

    You’re not against immigration, you’re against Black people and you’re against race mixing. Your leaders Jussi Halla-Aho, James Hirvisaari, Olli Immonen and Juha Eerola are all members of Suomen Sisu, an organization that’s against race mixing.

    I’m sick of you trying to bullshit people into thinking you really care about crime done by immigrants when you NEVER tackle the overwhelming majority of immigrant criminals because they happen to be white.

    At least be man enough and show the common decency to admit that you’re a bigot and a racist and stop hiding behind your already disproven “proportional percentages” argument.

    EXACTLY!

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi UppBlandat, is your name supposed to be the opposite of another one of our favored visitors?

      Welcome to Migrant Tales.

  20. Väinämöinen

    BlandaUpp

    ”If they were seriously concerned about crime done by immigrants, why don’t they ever speak about Russians, Estonians and Swedes who do the overwhelming majority of crime done by immigrants?”

    Is this also a sourceless statement as justicedemon claiming that no foreigner has ever been convicted of serious economic crime (fraud) in Finland?

  21. D4R

    March 27, 2012
    Hindus have criticized Finland for inhumane treatment of Roma (Gypsies).

    Hindu statesman Rajan Zed, in a statement in Nevada (USA) today, said that Roma had been reportedly evicted from Kalasatama camp and were not allowed to camp on City of Helsinki property or sleep in their cars in the severe winter.

    Zed, who is President of Universal Society of Hinduism, pointed out that on the other hand, Occupy Helsinki movement had reportedly been permitted to continue their camp on City of Helsinki land, which included a tent and a hut, for the last few months in the middle of Helsinki. They were not against Occupy Helsinki movement but were simply concerned about Roma and fair implementation of existing laws; Zed said and added that all should be equal before the law.

    Rajan Zed argued that instead of systematic discrimination against Roma, Finland should work on poverty elimination and Roma inclusion programs. It was simply inhuman to continuously crack down on poor Roma.

    Zed noted that in the past, City of Helsinki had dismantled Roma camps without providing alternative accommodation, while there were similar camps/shacks within the Helsinki city limits occupied by Finnish derelicts and homeless alcoholics.

    Rajan Zed urged Finland to take care of its Roma population who reportedly faced apartheid conditions. Roma had been living in Finland since 1500s and took part alongside other Finns in all of the wars the country participated. What more Roma needed to do and how many more centuries they had to reside in Finland to prove that they were “real and equal” Finns like any other, he asked.

    Zed further said that it was 2012 and many Finland restaurants, stores, and other licensed premises still reportedly refused them entry. Replying to a telephone survey in the past, some employers reportedly admitted that they would not want to hire a Roma even if he/she had the qualifications for a job. Prejudicial treatment occurred even though the Finnish Penal Code, through an amendment adopted in 1995 [sections 11(8) and (9)], criminalized incitement to racial hatred and racial discrimination. The Criminal Code at Article 47(3) also provided for punishment of discrimination in employment.

    Hindu statesman stressed that Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, which represented about 80 percent of the Finns, should also come out in support of the cause of this distinct ethnic and cultural group of Roma, because religion taught us to help the helpless.

  22. BlandaUpp

    Väinämöinen

    Unlike the Homma Forum/Suomen Sisu crowd, we don’t play the anti-facts/selected statistics game here.

    http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/107527-nama-luvut-julki-ensi-kertaa-ulkomaalaisten-rikokset-suomessa
    ”Rangaistujen ulkomaalaisten (31 700) joukossa oli 143:n eri valtion kansalaisia, suurimpana lukuna 8 200 Venäjän tai entisen Neuvostoliiton kansalaista. Seuraavat kansalaisuudet olivat Viro (5892), Ruotsi (2079), Turkki (1044), Somalia (939), Romania (898) ja UIkomaa tuntematon (865).”

    If Somalis were charged of 939 crimes out of a total of 31700 crimes perpetrated by foreigners in Finland in 2010 then Somalis were arrested for a SHOCKING 2.9% of crime perpetrated by foreigners in Finland!

    I even have it laid out for small minded people to see http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=What+percentage+of+31700+is+939

    Where’s the outrage about the other 97.1% of crimes by foreigners not done but Somalis?

    Why have Somalis become the scapegoat in the PS/Homma Forum/Suomen Sisu anti-immigration witch hunt?

    It is because they are Black and Muslim and therefore easy targets.

    FACTS show that Somalis are VASTLY UNDERREPRESENTED in the statistics.

  23. Elven archer

    “You’re not against immigration, you’re against Black people and you’re against race mixing.”

    I asked for the proof to show where I ever have made even a single racist remark or comment. And this is what you come up with? Nothing! Absolutely nothing. Still you just generalize and insult me because of your prejudices.

    “I’m on your “immigration critical” forums and I know what you guys speak about all day every day.”

    Us guys? Please tell me, what *I* have said. Do you think people should be responsible for somebody else’s behaviour? Obviously you do.

    And Mark just claps his hands happily to this kind of prejudice, this behaviour very similar what the racists do. I find it disgusting.

  24. Elven archer

    “At least be man enough and show the common decency to admit that you’re a bigot and a racist and stop hiding behind your already disproven “proportional percentages” argument.”

    The burden of proof is on your tiny shoulders. You can’t even make a difference between an individual and his (imagined) group. You insult an invididual because of the group you place him. How fair and not at all a racist thing to do?

  25. Elven archer

    “We’re both white Finns. It’s impossible to be racist against each other. You need to have your head checked.”

    But reading from this blog I gathered that racism is more than just about the colour of one’s skin. I actually agree with you in your tight definition. I just wanted to be polite. But nice’s to know you agree. So when the next time some of you accuses me of racism because critisizing cultures, I refer to your answer. Would you like to discus for example the Somali culture when it’s clearly not a racist thing to do? 😀 About Islam in Somalia? About women’s rights in Somalia? About gays’ rights in Somalia? Freedom of speech? I really thought these subjects are forbidden and concidered racist even just mentioning those.

    Now, you forgot the proof. How surprising. You said me a racist. Against who exactly? And WHERE? If you can’t show us, like you can’t, and just keep repeating this ingenious “I just know it” mantra of yours, how intelligent you think you look like? How truthful you look like?

  26. Elven archer

    And can you elaborate more that thing where I should be responsible of the other people’s actions? Do you think a Somali individual should be responsible for other Somali individuals’ actions? If not, why do you expect me to be responsible for some other individuals’ actions?

    Take a long look in the mirror before you preach.

  27. BlandaUpp

    Elven archer

    I don’t give a fuck about Somalia because I’m not Somali. I’m a Finn in Finland with mixed race kids who speak Finnish and grow up in our culture like every Somali/Swedish/Russian/America immigrant child in this country. They all are taught the same culture at school.

    You’re an Islamophobe. You choose to criticize aspects of Islam that have no relevance in our society. What you Islamophobes are doing is no different to what the Nazis did to the Jews.

    Just like you, if I was a Nazi anti-semite I could talk about why Orthodox Jews have a Mohel circumcise their babies and then suck the blood from the baby’s penis. Is this civilized? Does it have a place in modern European society? What about gay rights in Orthodox Judaism in Israel?

    If you’re not a racist and a bigot, you certainly hide it well by defending racists and bigots at every turn.

  28. Väinämöinen

    BlandaUpp

    Foreigners living in Finland commit 60% more crime than Finns.

    Would it perhaps be relevant to compare nr of the committed crimes to the population of the respective foreign people?

  29. Elven archer

    “You’re an Islamophobe.”

    Please show me one thing I’ve said about Islam which is not true. Why do you make claims with nothing to back them up? A rhetorical question, surely 😀

    • Mark

      Elven

      Still peddling that bull. We spent a whole lot of time on another thread revealing the complete paucity of this argument that because it’s a fact, it cannot be bigotry. You were forced to afoot that facts statements can be bigotry when used in an inappropriate way. Your use of ‘facts’ against Islam and even Muslims having nannies on the UK have been entirely inappropriate.

  30. BlandaUpp

    Väinämöinen

    I have provided you with official statistics. They are facts. 97.1% of crimes by foreigners are not done but Somalis. I’m sorry if the official facts don’t fit into the propaganda you’ve been fed over at Homma Forum.

  31. BlandaUpp

    Elven archer

    I feel like I’m wasting my time speaking to an idiot because you don’t even understand what you are responding to.

    Islamophobia is prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Islam or Muslims.

    I’ve responded to you but you’ve chosen to avoid my answer about the similarities between Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Islam practiced in certain cultures. You’ve lost the first debate so you switched to your anti-Islam rhetoric. You’re making a fool of yourself.

  32. Elven archer

    “I feel like I’m wasting my time speaking to an idiot because you don’t even understand what you are responding to.”

    “Islamophobia is prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Islam or Muslims. ”

    And I asked you the proof of me doing that. You couldn’t deliver. Who’s the idiot? The one making claims he can’t backup or the one who asks the proof? Ei ole tyhmiä kysymyksiä, on vain tyhmiä vastauksia.

    • Mark

      Elven

      “Islamophobia is prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Islam or Muslims.”

      And I asked you the proof of me doing that. You couldn’t deliver

      In a previous thread Elven, you offered a headline about Muslims in the uK multiplying 10 times faster than the general population. This ‘multiplying’ was not breeding, but includes also new immigrants and converts to Islam, as well as those more willing to openly identify themselves as Muslims. You didn’t clarify this of course. In the same comment you talked about “mixing people with very different core values”, i.e. them criminals:

      … in France. About 60 to 70 percent of all inmates in the country’s prison system are Muslim, according to Muslim leaders, sociologists and researchers, though Muslims make up only about 12 percent of the country’s population.” and “In Britain, 11 percent of prisoners are Muslim in contrast to about 3 percent of all inhabitants, according to the Justice Ministry.

      …and then had the cheek to deny that you were labelling Muslims as criminals. In fact, you simply said that people can draw their own conclusions. Indeed, I think they can.

      And then of course this whole argument that if you are just quoting ‘facst’, how can this possibly be bigotry. The entire article was devoted to demonstrating to you exactly how presenting facts can in fact very clearly be demonstrated to be a case of bigotry, not unlike your own. To sum it up, the logic you were offering is the same logic that would seek degrade Germans as a nation over the Holocaust:

      Person is German, Holocaust was done by Germans = relevant = excuse for discrimination.

      Person is Muslim, horrible things are done by Muslims = relevant = excuse for discrimination.

      So, I think your religious bigotry has been more than adequately ‘outed’ on this blog.

  33. Elven archer

    “I’ve responded to you but you’ve chosen to avoid my answer about the similarities between Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Islam practiced in certain cultures. ”

    So? What was my take on those issues? Is it really an intelligent thing to do to talk about the things I haven’t when asked what did I say? You are clearly very clever and not dumb like me.

  34. BlandaUpp

    Elven archer

    The idiot is the one jumping from being shown to be a bald-faced liar about your anti-black immigrant stance based on crime statistics, then when proven wrong, you jump into your culture wars argument about what’s happening in Somalia, and asking random questions about Islam.

    I responded to your Islam in Somalia questions twice but you chose to ignore my answers and follow up questions.

    You’ve proven yourself to be an unworthy debater since you don’t answer my questions. This exchange feels like a waste of my time.

    • Mark

      BlandaUpp

      You’ve proven yourself to be an unworthy debater since you don’t answer my questions.

      This is quite typical of Elven.

  35. D4R

    Elven archer: But reading from this blog I gathered that racism is more than just about the colour of one’s skin. I actually agree with you in your tight definition. I just wanted to be polite. But nice’s to know you agree. So when the next time some of you accuses me of racism because critisizing cultures, I refer to your answer. Would you like to discus for example the Somali culture when it’s clearly not a racist thing to do? About Islam in Somalia? About women’s rights in Somalia? About gays’ rights in Somalia? Freedom of speech? I really thought these subjects are forbidden and concidered racist even just mentioning those.

    Well mr archer, islam forbids homosexuality just like christianity and judaism, islam gives the same right to woman as judaism and christianity. You know what mr archer, I THINK YOU’RE A RACIST, BUT YOUR A COWARD TO ADMIT IT, just you racist in Hommaforum, you guys been telling toeachother your not a racist but you keep on demeaning Somalis wich happen to be dark skinned africans and gypsies too, but why not Russians or Estonians? ohh no no, they happen to be fair skinned people like you , even though they’re statistically the most people who do crime in Finland they get the pass, but keep on putting your whole attention o poor Somalis while the real threat takes over your country silently but surely. 🙂

  36. D4R

    BlandUpp: I don’t give a fuck about Somalia because I’m not Somali. I’m a Finn in Finland with mixed race kids who speak Finnish and grow up in our culture like every Somali/Swedish/Russian/America immigrant child in this country. They all are taught the same culture at school

    But i give a fuck, and i will defend my country untill i die……………………….:)

  37. O. M. Hietamaa

    It is not quite true that Eronen “knew firsthand about the horrors of the Holocaust”, as he wasn’t alive at that time. Otherwise of course a very good piece of writing, as always. Keep up the good work!

    • Migrant Tales

      Thank you O.M., my point about Eronen is that she had visited Auschwitz and should have known better. But you are right, she is too young to have a firsthand view of the horrors of the Holocaust.

  38. D4R

    GUYS, I THINK WE’RE BEING DISTRACTED BY THESE DUMMIES, INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON REAL ISSUES, THESE GUYS ARE INTENTIONALLY DISTRACTED THE REAL DISCUSSION.

  39. BlandaUpp

    D4R

    Apologies if that came off too strongly 🙂 I don’t personally know any Somalis in Finland but I have a few Somali friends in The Netherlands and they’re all really cool people.

  40. D4R

    BlandUpp: Apologies if that came off too strongly I don’t personally know any Somalis in Finland but I have a few Somali friends in The Netherlands and they’re all really cool people.

    Non taken. 🙂

  41. Sasu

    GUYS, I THINK WE’RE BEING DISTRACTED BY THESE DUMMIES, INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON REAL ISSUES, THESE GUYS ARE INTENTIONALLY DISTRACTED THE REAL DISCUSSION. D4R

    Minähän olen vähän väliä jankannut ettei tästä keskustelusta ole mitään hyötyä. On hyvin epätodennäköistä että saisimme näitä jankaajia uskomaan rasismiin. Sama koskee kaikkia valkoisia lukijoita. Valkoiset ottavat rasismi syytökset liian usein henkilö kohtaisena loukkaussena. Mitä väliä sillä on uskovatko valkoiset. keskistytään mieluumin omien kouluttamiseen ja ratkaisujen etsimiseen.

    BlandaUpp Kato ja oletko vielä ton jälkeen suomalaisen etnosenrisen opetussen puolella. Minusta suomalaistuminen on surkea pako tie joka johtaa vain umpikujaan. Jos olet värillinen niin tulet olemaan muukalainen ikuisesti vaikka puhuisi jus hyvää suomea ja käyttäytyisit aina oikein.
    http://nemoo.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/milloin-minusta-tulee-suomalainen/

  42. Elven archer

    “The idiot is the one jumping from being shown to be a bald-faced liar about your anti-black immigrant stance based on crime statistics”

    Where did I mention a colour of one’s skin? Where did I mention a certain group? Where did I even talked about MY ideas?

    “… for the same reason they don’t speak about the fact that the Finns do the most crime, it’s about proportional percentages.”

    THEY don’t speak. It was not even what I think, but what I thought THEY think. Yeah, you are the intelligent one. 😀

  43. Elven archer

    “You know what mr archer, I THINK YOU’RE A RACIST, BUT YOUR A COWARD TO ADMIT IT”

    Oh, you think but just can’t give a single argument to back it up. Maybe some people in Hommaforum think things too about people? Is that also alright?

    I have only one question left. I have clearly took down enough of your facade. How well do you think you repsesent the values, the attitudes, the feelings and the behaviour of the immigrants in Finland in general? I don’t make claims, I’m asking you.

  44. Elven archer

    “You were forced to admit that facts statements can be bigotry when used in an inappropriate way.”

    Inappropriate like saying the facts about Islam when talking about Islam? Whoa, that’s clearly so out of line 🙂

  45. Elven archer

    You are the one being innappropriate when denying them their own voice. For example if almost 40 % say they wan’t sharia in UK, who are you to deny that trying to dilute their opinitions? That’s just so patronising.

  46. Väinämöinen

    BlandaUpp

    ”FACTS show that Somalis are VASTLY UNDERREPRESENTED in the statistics.”

    Some here at Migrant Tales say there is a Russian-population of many many million in Finland.

    If that is true, then it would be right to say Somalis are VASTLY OVERERREPRESENTED in the statistics, right?

  47. Markus H

    Miss Eronen was indeed serious in suggesting that Americans should wear a badge with a burger on it, and Cambodians one with a land mine. Oh yes indeed.

    Since understanding of complicated forms of humour, such as satire, appears to be in short supply in Finland nowadays, I should probably emphasize that I was being sarcastic.

    I won’t be bothered to wear down my keyboard explaining the actual meaning of Helena’s writing, because I want to believe, that every adult, who is equipped with normal wits, can understand it.

    However, I believe that if something is undermining the threat of racism in Finland, it’s “scandals” like these. If I didn’t know better, I’d think that the worst thing the Finnish far-right movement has accomplished in a while, is a humorous blog-writing that would pass as a funny sketch in a tv-show.

    I for one completely sympathize with ms. Eronen and find that she has not deserved any of this bad publicity. If you want to be taken half seriously, don’t make stuff up and twist the thruth. It will only make you lose credibility.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Markus H, welcome to Migrant Tales.

      I remember a long time ago the junior college paper at Los Angeles City College played an April fools joke with some of the stories. One of these was a joke on Mecha, the Mexican-American association. The article, although intended to be a joke, got a lot of people pissed off. The editor apologized and it was probably the last time he’d pull such a joke on the student body.

      Helena Eronen is a similar case. She should have enough understanding that being an aide to a Finnish MP does not give you the right to write anything she pleases, especially about racial profiling, taking a jab at the office of the Ombudsman for Minorities and understanding the historical context. We have debated this matter quite extensively on Migrant Tales.

      The last thing we do on Migrant Tales is write and worry what some people may end up thinking about us. We have written so many things that “could make us lose our credibility” that it isn’t funny. I am not saying this with arrogance but with the greatest humility. Our secret is that we write what we think understanding that there is always a large mob ready to lynch us if we make a mistake. We have seen this before and will see it in the future as well.

  48. D4R

    Markus H: Miss Eronen was indeed serious in suggesting that Americans should wear a badge with a burger on it, and Cambodians one with a land mine. Oh yes indeed.

    Since understanding of complicated forms of humour, such as satire, appears to be in short supply in Finland nowadays, I should probably emphasize that I was being sarcastic.

    I won’t be bothered to wear down my keyboard explaining the actual meaning of Helena’s writing, because I want to believe, that every adult, who is equipped with normal wits, can understand it.

    However, I believe that if something is undermining the threat of racism in Finland, it’s “scandals” like these. If I didn’t know better, I’d think that the worst thing the Finnish far-right movement has accomplished in a while, is a humorous blog-writing that would pass as a funny sketch in a tv-show.

    I for one completely sympathize with ms. Eronen and find that she has not deserved any of this bad publicity. If you want to be taken half seriously, don’t make stuff up and twist the thruth. It will only make you lose credibility.

    To who it was humorous ms eronens so called a joke suggestion? not to us immigrants for sure, non of us imigrants found it humorous so it’s kind of strange to call it humorous when non of us laughed about it, on the contrary we got shocked and felt a threat, as an immigrant in Finland we constantly live in fear because of racism and someone like ms Eronen from the parliament suggests to immigrants something like this so they can be profiled, maybe this was a a humour to you guys in homaforum, you guys in hommaforum laugh about lynching a black guy, so, do you guys think that the rest of the world will laugh with you about it?

  49. Väinämöinen

    Kari Tapio

    Are you going to present our source of the serious economic crimes?

    You could present them:

    1) the independent republic of Finland
    2)the Finnish autonomy under Russian empire
    3) the Swedish era

    Do you reckon to be ready by X-mas?

  50. Elven archer

    “This ‘multiplying’ was not breeding, but includes also new immigrants and converts to Islam, as well as those more willing to openly identify themselves as Muslims. You didn’t clarify this of course. ”

    Sorry, I didn’t know anybody would be so stupid that I needed to clarify that if a typical number of children is for instance 1,8 – 2 children then 10x would mean 18-20 children. Uh? Talking about breeding was your own fiction, I talked…. no, The Times talked only about numbers. And when the context of the conversation is immigration politics, of course the whole beef is… well… the immigration politics which affects the numbers so that even without higher birthrates (although they are higher) it would change the demographics significately.

    The Times was perfectly clear about the whole thing: the numbers growing ten times faster. Obviously it was not enough for you. I wonder why? 😀

    • Mark

      Elven

      Talking about breeding was your own fiction, I talked…. no, The Times talked only about numbers.

      Oh dear, maybe you should go to the trouble of actually checking what you wrote, Elven. Here’s a reminder.

      So when they reported in the UK that “The Muslim population multiplied 10 times faster than the rest of society, the research by the Office for National Statistics done during the period of 2004-2008 reveals.

      As I explained last time, ‘multiplying’ in English typically implies breeding. In fact, the UK Indepence Party peer Lord Pearson specifically interpreted the report this way and spoke in an interview about how “the Muslims are breeding ten times faster than us.”

      So, the Times said ‘growing’ 10 times faster, you wrote ‘multiplied’ 10 times faster, without qualifications. Enough said.

      i.e. criminals? I didn’t say anything such. I simply wondered if the different values might have something to do with the success of social integration.

      Oh dear again. You really should keep tabs on how you develop your arguments, Elven. This is also from that previous discussion:

      Mark, is the number of Muslims increasing in Europe? Yes or no.

      What do you think about this:

      “… in France. About 60 to 70 percent of all inmates in the country’s prison system are Muslim,

      See, you made the jump specifically from talking about the number of Muslims to talk about Muslim crime. Make of it what you will.

      You also told me that this population increase would be “mixing people with very different core values” and that it would “shape the UK in an unwanted way”, though you reversed this into a rhetorical question.

      And for good maeasure, here is nother of your contributions:

      Crime statistics show that an foreigner/immigrant is more likely to commit a crime in this country. There’s remarkable differences between different groups of immigrants…You mentioned statistics. They are very clear about there issues

      Don’t mention the MUslims and definitely don’t mention the Somalis!!! Pathetic! You’re a coward. Half the time you are arguing about something you don’t even have the courage to fully admit.

      Also, there is absolutely nothing clear about the statisics, or can you actually produce a source for a change, or discuss what methods of weighting have been used? I doubt it.

      Why do you insist making interpretations about my views? Why don’t you just look at the figures?

      Okay, you want to talk figures, present them. Finland first, please.

      So, you had nothing at all to say about the fact that you incorrectly said that I had called you a racist….typical!

  51. Elven archer

    “In the same comment you talked about “mixing people with very different core values”, i.e. them criminals”

    I.e. criminals? I didn’t say anything such. That was your own deduction done in a way only Mark can. I simply wondered if the different values might have something to do with the success of social integration. Well, couldn’t they? If I was thrown in a muslim society, I can imagine I would have hard time adjusting when the values of the society around me would be so different of my own values.

    Why do you insist making interpretations about my views? Why don’t you just look at the figures? That would take away this pointless bickering but I guess that’s the whole point: to keep bickering and so not to look at the figures. They cast a shadow over the immigration policities which you don’t like to be questioned.

  52. Elven archer

    “…and then had the cheek to deny that you were labelling Muslims as criminals. In fact, you simply said that people can draw their own conclusions. Indeed, I think they can.”

    It was in the paper, don’t shoot the messenger. And isn’t it a good thing that I did not make any claims? Well, live and learn.

    “The entire article was devoted to demonstrating to you exactly how presenting facts can in fact very clearly be demonstrated to be a case of bigotry, not unlike your own.”

    You wrote your own very creative and false (even snipping things like this: “No, I know so I can’t guess.” -> “No.” and then took that like yes, you can’t guess) interpretation and now you present your own interpretation as a proof, “the article”. The article about our conversation writting by none other than you. Snip snip snip, cut and paste even within sentences. The article.

    “To sum it up, the logic you were offering is the same logic that would seek degrade Germans as a nation over the Holocaust”

    Logic? A person living in this day doesn’t have anything to do with the past things done by some others. But in immigration policies today in a state level, like in every other policy, you can’t draw guidelines individually. You have to think of the big picture, think about *today*, decise how much immigration is proper, what are the resources available and such. You have to monitor the situation and look at the results of the policies and take corrective measures if needed.

    Your “analogy” is ridiculous. Try to even get a time line right. It is not the same to consider the actions of one group of people in the past long gone and in today. It is not the same to look what’s happening now and what happened over 70 years ago when you are making decisions *today*. In your “logic” if the recent youth crime rate was a problem shown by a study you deduct that it is in the past (like WWII) and so can’t be taken as a reason to take corrective measures and try to influence the youth in general for example with better education and providing work because not every youth is a criminal.

    • Mark

      Elven

      Snip snip snip, cut and paste even within sentences. The article.

      The only thing that you could come up with that wasn’t an accurate representation of what you had said was that I removed a full stop after No, and that I left off some irrelevant clap trap when finally you responded to one of my key questions.

      It’s here if anyone wishes to refresh themselves.

      Your “analogy” is ridiculous.Try to even get a time line right.

      You completely forget the nature of the argument, don’t you 😀 The example was a German candidate going for a job in today’s world and being told about the Holocaust upon sitting down in the interview chair. The interviewer is only presenting a fact ‘six millions Jews died in the Holocaust’. The question is, is it bigotry on the part of the interviewer. It’s a useful and important question, as it demonstrates clearly how the use of facts in particular contexts can clearly be an exercise in bigotry, a claim you denied on the previous blog and which I noticed you again denied here, showing you’ve learnt nothing. Not unexpected.

      …with better education and providing work because not every youth is a criminal.

      Maybe there is hope for you yet.

      A simple question for you: Do you think the core values of Islam make it incompatible with modern day Europe?

  53. Elven archer

    “As I explained last time, ‘multiplying’ in English typically implies breeding.”

    Well, I didn’t know that. So drop it already. It was the word The Times used so I assumed they knew their English.

    • Mark

      Elven

      Well, I didn’t know that. So drop it already. It was the word The Times used so I assumed they knew their English.

      Well now you know. Do you also now see why your comment can be seen as bigotry in the context of the correct meaning of the word? It still doesn’t really say a lot too about the fact you seem to object to the ‘number’ of Muslims in Europe. What is it about Muslims that you think makes them ‘less’ than other Europeans, I wonder? Or do you prefer to use the word ‘different’? 😀

  54. Elven archer

    “So, the Times said ‘growing’ 10 times faster, you wrote ‘multiplied’ 10 times faster, without qualifications. Enough said.”

    They said “multiplied”. I used the direct quote of the following article because The Times’s original article is now offline but it also used “multiplied”:

    http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Muslim-population-multiplied-10-times-faster-in-UK/417773/

    “The Muslim population multiplied 10 times faster than the rest of society, the research by the Office for National Statistics done during the period of 2004-2008 reveals. In the same period the number of Christians in the country fell by more than 2 million.”

    This was the source of my quote. And you can read, can you? What is the word used? M-u-l–t-i-p-l-i-e-d. God, to see this day coming, me teaching an English speaking person how to read the given source for the quote I used.

    And if that is too hard for you to understand, you should get it from the context:

    “Immigration, higher birthrates and conversions to Islam are considered as major factors behind rise of the Muslim population in UK by more than 5 lakhs to 2.4 million in just four years.”

    Your nitpicking is so lame. But hey, whatever to take the conversation from the actual topic, the fact about the number of muslims in Britain and how the number is growing rapidly? Any thoughts about that? The ‘growing’ if you would like?

    • Mark

      Elven

      This was the source of my quote. And you can read, can you? What is the word used? M-u-l–t-i-p-l-i-e-d. God, to see this day coming, me teaching an English speaking person how to read the given source for the quote I used.

      So now you are blaming someone else for your words. So, in spite of arrogantly claiming to ‘teach’ a native English speaker, and a linguist at that, about ‘reading’, the reality is that you quoted a source, didn’t bother to ask yourself what it meant, and likewise, when it was pointed out by a native what the actual meaning was and that this meaning gave a very negative slant to this information, rather than admit you didn’t know, you flatly refused to try to understand what the native speaker was trying to explain to you? I’m glad to see this person still has the cheek to patronise me about my reading skills!

      Nitpicking? Are you for real? Even if we take ‘multiplying’ to be just a basic ‘increasing’, the fact that you offer this up as an actual fact that carries any weight in a debate on immigration shows you up to be the worst kind of bigot. I already pointed the fact that the implications of taking this ‘fact’ seriously would be a complete violation of the human rights of Muslims, but again, you don’t want to consider this for a second. You say you want to see the number of religious people go down, and you also say that you want this to be reflected in the immigration policies of Europe? I can understand someone who isn’t religious wanting to see an end to religion, but I would be very surprised to hear that person say they expect this wish to be reflected in policies that decide on citizenship and immigration. By turning your dislike into a political agenda, you have overstepped the mark. You cannot simply be seen as someone who simply disagrees with other people over religion, but rather as someone that is prepared to use political tools to deny the rights of other individuals to express their religion. Or rather, to even be in Europe in the first place, hence getting rid of the problem of telling Muslims to stop breeding and to stop expressing their beliefs about the world, about justice, about humanity and about life. No doubt you will say that you haven’t said any of this, but what else do you expect me to think when you make your dislike for religion the key basis of your political activism?

  55. Elven archer

    “Don’t mention the MUslims and definitely don’t mention the Somalis!!!”

    Why do you keep yapping about the Somalis? Have you got some stereotype against them when talking in general without mentioning any spesific group you again bring forth the Somalis?

    Did I claimed something about the stats that were not there? If and when not, what the hell is your problem?

    • Mark

      Elven

      If you are going to attack Muslims, whether in Europe or in Finland, then you must respect that this impacts disproportionately on Somalis living in Finland. Has it not escaped your notice that Somalis are also the most discriminated against in Finland and the ones most often denigrated with spurious statistics? If is your obligation to realise the context in which this blog operates. If you cannot appreciate that, then perhaps you are in the wrong place.

  56. Elven archer

    “Also, there is absolutely nothing clear about the statisics, or can you actually produce a source for a change, or discuss what methods of weighting have been used? I doubt it.”

    Well, I never said you were very clever so go and doubt what you want. There’s a lot of statistics. How about this quite recent?

    “Käräjäoikeuksissa tuomittiin rangaistukseen viime vuonna 5 900 ulkomaiden kansalaista, mikä oli 9,1 prosenttia kaikista tuomituista. Tilastokeskuksen julkistamista tiedoista ilmenee, että joka toisella tuomitulla ulkomaalaisella oli vakinainen asuinpaikka Suomessa.”

    http://tilastokeskus.fi/til/syyttr/2009/syyttr_2009_2010-12-16_tie_001_fi.html?ad=notify

    The methods were obviously racist courts convicting innocent foreigners? 😀

    • Mark

      Thank you finally for a statistic with a source. Now tell me, how many of these were Muslims? Also, can you tell me if these statistics have been weighted in any way? What I mean is that the Finnish population has a lot of grannies living in the country who hardly ever commit crime. Now if there are not a lot of foreign grannies living in the country committing crime among the foreigners, then you might say that ‘like is not being compared with like’, is it? So, can you tell me what weighting has been applied to these statistics? Also, can you tell me the actual number of foreigners in Finland these days?

  57. Elven archer

    “2000-luvulla poliisin tietoon tulleista raiskauksista yli 40 prosentissa epäilty on ollut ulkomaalaistaustainen. Ryöstöissä sekä kiristyksissä osuus on lähes kolmasosa.

    Helsingin Sanomat kävi läpi 2000-luvulla Helsingin poliisin tietoon tulleet murhat ja tapot, törkeät pahoinpitelyt, raiskaukset sekä ryöstöt ja kiristykset, joissa epäilty on saatu kiinni.

    Ulkomaalaistaustainen tarkoittaa poliisin tilastoissa henkilöä, joka ei ole syntynyt Suomessa. Tilastoissa ei ole eritelty tekijöitä yksittäisten kansallisuuksien mukaan.

    2000-luvulla ulkomailla syntyneiden osuus Helsingin asukkaista on kasvanut 6,1 prosentista 8,3:een.”

    http://omakaupunki.hs.fi/paakaupunkiseutu/uutiset/maahanmuuttajat_yliedustettuina_helsingin/

    • Mark

      Elvens

      And why didn’t you also report this from the same article?

      Maahanmuuttajien ikärakenne on erilainen kuin kantaväestön: heidän joukossaan on enemmän nuoria. Tämä voi vääristää tilastoja, sillä rikoksiin syyllistytään usein nuorena.

      After adjustment for age alone the difference drops to 10 percentage points. On top of that, rape involving a foreigner is more likely to be reported, as the statistics of the rape helpline Tukinainen clearly show, where rapes involving foreigners are much lower, at 12%. The article also discusses other factors, such as that rapes involving foreigners typically involve two people leaving a bar together and a rape happening in the home or car. Rapes of strangers on the street is extremely rare among both Finns and foreigners.

      So, can you see already how putting statistics into the correct perspective can have a massive impact on what exactly you think it tells you about these ‘foreigners’. Don’t you agree?

      Anyhow, I still don’t see how this connects with Muslims.

  58. Elven archer

    Go and weight that with whatever method you want. If you really want to dig in to what is considered common knowledge, just google it yourself or go read Homma. They probably have gathered the results of the studies there quite good.

  59. Elven archer

    Does it really have to come to this like the Norwegian tv shows before one can say anything about the immigration politics being not tight enough? Who benefits from that kind of publicity? How it reflects to every honest hardworking immigrant out there? And not even talking about the victims of those horrible crimes. How do you weight this, Mark?

  60. justicedemon

    Elf

    It’s very revealing that you reference a statistically flawed article from 2008 instead of more recent material that properly distinguishes immigrants and visitors.

    Tell us that was accidental – go on. Someone might believe you.

    Speaking of horrible crimes in Norway, an infamous anti-jihadi mass child killer is on trial right now, but of course people who willfully distort statistics on the Internet bear no responsibility for that incident.

  61. Elven archer

    “It’s very revealing that you reference a statistically flawed article from 2008 instead of more recent material that properly distinguishes immigrants and visitors.”

    Flawed? Show me the year where there was no overrepsesentation? It’s revealing you think Tilastokeskus has flawed once again just because you said it.

    “Speaking of horrible crimes in Norway, an infamous anti-jihadi mass child killer is on trial right now, but of course people who willfully distort statistics on the Internet bear no responsibility for that incident.”

    Talking about changing subject? What was his motivation? The kind of news you saw there. Are you really suggesting that the proper way to handle the problem is not to talk about it? You were 😀

    So I ask again is it not so that the good immigration policy is best for *everyone* including the immigrants?

    And that pretty much wraps up your change of subject. Do you have anything to say about that broadcast in Norwegian tv? Mark talk about values. Do you have anything to say about values discussed in the video? Do you have nothing to say about those numbers? Or would you rather change subject and not comment about it? 😀

  62. Elven archer

    Was Norwegian tv also “distorting statictics”? The numbers very quite simple. 100 %. Care to weight that? 😀

    It’s funny that everybody is always distorting. There’s nothing wrong in anything ever. And the problems are not the problems but the people talking about it.

  63. eyeopener

    Hi Sasu.

    You are absolutely right. Let’s ignore the distraction and continue the cause we have set out to support.

    Traps are always wide open. Ignore them. Just go through this thred and you will quickly see the tactics.

    Come on guys. We have better things to do.

  64. justicedemon

    Elf

    Flawed? Show me the year where there was no overrepsesentation? It’s revealing you think Tilastokeskus has flawed once again just because you said it.

    Simple. The headline says immigrants, but the article only discusses the foreign-born. That is a huge distortion that you cannot have missed.

    Helsinki is overwhelmingly Finland’s single largest destination for foreign visitors. There were something like ten million border crossings in the referenced year, with the number of visitors increasingly rapidly for some years. The “statistical” calculation includes these visitors in the numerator but excludes them from the denominator.

    That kind of crass error may not be noticed by the epähiket at hommaforum, but you seem to have claimed greater expertise (though you did just give hommaforum as an information source).

  65. Elven archer

    “Simple. The headline says immigrants, but the article only discusses the foreign-born. That is a huge distortion that you cannot have missed.”

    This is the headline: “Viime vuonna käräjillä rangaistukseen tuomituista 9 prosenttia oli ulkomaalaisia”

    Ulkomaalaisia = foreigners. Maahanmuuttajia = immigrants.

    😀

  66. Elven archer

    http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/120909-raiskaukset-suomessa-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Dulkomaalaisten-osuus-pistaa-silmaan%E2%80%9D

    “Optulan tutkimus keskittyi vuosina 2006-2009 oikeudessa käsiteltyihin raiskausrikoksiin. Tuona aikana Suomessa tuomittiin yhteensä 262 raiskaajaa. Tuomioita annettiin pakottamisesta sukupuoliyhteyteen, raiskauksesta tai törkeästä raiskauksesta.

    Kaikista raiskausrikoksista joka neljännellä tuomitulla oli tausta ulkomailla: joko jonkin muun maan kansalaisuus tai kaksoiskansalaisuus.

    Perusmuotoisen raiskauksen tekijöistä ulkomaalaistaustaisia oli 30 henkeä eli 34 prosenttia tuomituista. Törkeästä raiskauksesta tuomituista 13 henkeä eli 41 prosenttia oli ulkomaalaistaustaisia.”

    “- Sattumalle täytyy jättää mahdollisuus. Ulkomaalaisten tekemät seksuaalirikokset ehkä huomataan, ilmoitetaan ja tuomitaan helpommin, Optulan Lappi-Seppälä arveli.”

    This is a ridiculous comment from a scientist. Why is he making guesses to make it all better? It’s called political correctness. Are reported easier? That is absurd. Year after year you hear the same complaining (guessing).

    “Rapes of strangers on the street is extremely rare among both Finns and foreigners.”

    This is what worries people in good homes and reliable friends, the strangers and the one’s you know. And it’s absurd when you so typically hear that “so what, the Finns rape at home”. Why a woman in a patriarchaic culture (in her family) in a strange country would report a rape more willigly than an empowered Finnish woman? So it doesn’t really change the statistics the way you would like to.

    I didn’t see your comment about Oslo, Mark? 100% in a three years time. 41 of 41. How do you want me to weight that? What about those values that policewoman talked about? Do you think that every culture regards women the same way as perfectly equal? If you do, do you think that the world is a good representation of that and if even so, how come? Have you not noticed any differences in certain cultures about woman’s place and rights in a society? Why these values wouldn’t shape the people living in the culture?

  67. Elven archer

    “This is what worries people in good homes and reliable friends, the strangers and the one’s you know.”

    I meant this is what worries people in good homes and reliable friends, the strangers and NOT the one’s you know.

  68. Elven archer

    “Anyhow, I still don’t see how this connects with Muslims.”

    Do you think that the case Oslo connects to them? I don’t know. I’m just asking if you knew. But please, Mark, give your take about the values which the policewoman in the video talked about. Do you think there are cultural differences in this regard? That there are different views about women’s rights to decide for themselves and different views about the meaning of looking someone in the eyes or wearing a mini skirt and so on?

  69. eyeopener

    Hi Elven Archer.

    Good try this youtube of yours. VERY VERY impressive. Have you gone through the clip??. If so you should be ashamed like a little boy in the corner having stolen a candy. Starting text: “in the last 3 years the Oslo police have investigated 41 rape assaults”. “And the figures show that every rape has beencommitted by non-western immigrants”. Than the clip continues with an interview the one of the top leaders of the police district.

    The clip is about “approximately 2010”. Does sounds very fake to me as a broadcast of “Dagsreyven”. And “Dagsreyven” don’t know when this broadcast was done?? Maybe the guy who used this clip just was looking for an argument, wasn’t it??

    Probably the guy was a friend of Breivik: http://www.politics.ie/forum/foreign-affairs/161612-shocking-rape-statistics-norway.html. and a couple of site more. Google: Norwegian statistics on rape give you a variety of Elven’s sources. Just not clever enough Elven!! An archer has a good eye. Get yourself some eye-wash, laser eye-correction in the first place. Second: BLABLABLA doesnot make you a good debater. But blind eyes? what can you do!!

    Bad food for critical followers of conservatism in Nordic countries!!

    Miss again!! Simple as that!!

  70. Elven archer

    “Does sounds very fake to me as a broadcast of “Dagsreyven”.”

    They faked Norwegian tv? Studio and all? And the actors dressed even in police costums? Did they also fake Norwegian press talking about the same issue? 😀

    But thank you for you input. This is the level of paranoia I was expecting to find amongst the core contributors of this blog.

  71. Elven archer

    http://www.thelocal.no/page/view/immigrants-behind-most-rapes-in-stavanger

    “An overwhelming majority of men convicted of rape in Stavanger in the last three years come from first and second-generation immigrant communities, a review of the city’s court rulings has shown.”

    “The cases involved 22 men, two of whom were cleared of rape charges.

    Of the 20 men found guilty of rape, half were of African origin, five had Asian backgrounds, one had Polish roots and three were ethnic Norwegians, said NRK, which did not disclose the ethnicity of one of the men.”

    Did they faked that too? There’s plenty more. Just google it.

  72. Mark

    Elven

    So, now we know that you think more African men commit rape, although you have done nothing to acknowledge the work of Tukinäinen, which is a rape helpline for women and should really know what they are talking about. They say the problem in Finland is that a large proportion of rape victims in Finland do not go to the police and that the perpetrator is known to them personally. Do you think that this is the case too in Norway to an extent? Are you concerned for rape victims or are you concerned only with getting some ‘dirt on the darkies’? I know what my guess would be.

    So, what is your conclusion, after presenting these statistics?

  73. eyeopener

    Hi Elven with the closed eyes.

    Media cheat where ever they can!! That’s why critical persons always cross-check.I have seen many examples of “constructing reality” with “real-life people” Why isn’t this “one of the top leaders of the police district” not named?? “The top leader of the police district” is not necessarily a police official. I am very critical about the nature of the clip and for me -Blind Archer- without any value or proof.

    How many rapes were committed and reported in Stavanger in the year of this article . It is not
    very precise in stating WHEN this assaults took place.It says: “In all, 18 rape judgments were handed down from 2009 to 2011 in the south-western city, according to a review carried out by state broadcaster NRK” 18 out of HOW MANY(your link doesn’t tell that. Furthermore it doesnot include the “dark-number”!!

    Dear Blind Eye. Get yourself the right information before accusing foreigners. A better “inside look” will allow you to become more critical about your own country men. Why do you use Norwegian information?? Brievik friend. He likes mediaval stories very much.

    As much as you do!!

    Simple.

    • Migrant Tales

      Väinämöinen, I am not surprised that your are spreading this BS on Migrant Tales. It’s a typical anti-immigration strategy (by the way used by PS MP James Hirvisaari) to victimize whole groups. What you are doing when you put this video clip is label whole groups wholesale. Only people with simplistic views of society do that.

      Here are some questions: How many rapes were committed, by whom?

      Here is a different take: Citizenship of the rapists

      The vast majority of rapists in Norway are Norwegian citizens and three quarters are European citizens. The police study states on page 52:

      The majority of registered perpetrators in cases of reported rape in Oslo in 2010 have Norwegian citizenship, as has been the case in every previous rape study. In 2010 this went for 61.2% of the perpetrators, which is relatively stable compared to the material from 2007 (60.3%). A relatively high proportion, 12.5%, of the registered perpetrators are from other parts of Europe, and taken together almost three quarters of the perpetrators in 2010 have European citizenship. For the rest, 10.5% are from Africa, 9.2% from the Middle East, 4.6% from Asia and 2% from America.

      Ethnic background: “Europeans” were the largest group of rapists

      According to the Oslo Police study, persons of Norwegian background were the largest group among the identified rapists and persons of “European” background comprised more than half. The 152 rapes in 2010 were carried out by 131 suspects. The study states on pages 53-54:

      The proportion of perpetrators (unique persons) of Norwegian national background is the group whose representation increases the most, comprising 38.2% of perpetrators. Together this brings the proportion of perpetrators with a European continental background to a total of 51.9%.

      Assault rape and the relevance of ethnic background

      The authors of the Oslo Police study appear to be aware that they are writing in a context where rape and other crimes are being generally blamed on foreigners. They write:

      Crude generalizations that have given the impression that rapists are only foreigners – and primarily Muslims – are shown to be inadequate and erroneous.

      The study notes that while there are no Norwegian rapists in the six assault rapes in 2010 where the perpetrator is identified, the number of cases is very small and the circumstances very “special.” When taking a broader sample of assault rapes, there is more diversity among the perpetrators. On pages 55-56:

      The ethnic profile varies within the different types of rape, but for all types except assault rape the largest group is composed of Norwegian perpetrators. Assault rape only comprises 6 cases, however, and the same perpetrator was responsible for two of these (there were 5 unique suspects/persons seen in 6 reports). In 4 of the six reports (3 unique men) the perpetrator was from the Middle-East, in one assault rape the man was from Africa, and in another, from Asia.

  74. eyeopener

    Väinämöinen or should I say Blind Eye.

    Yoepie. Could you give me link the to police report in this clppy from your Dagensreyven group. Very cool you come it with this now!! Norwegian again, but………. foreigeners are one bunch throw it on one heap.

    But whet does the clip actually says Blind Eye?? Hav you gone through it??

    First question: When was this report published?

    In 2005-2010 a total of 86 assaults was reported in 83 cases the man was described as having “non-western appearance” , These are all the cases in which the perpetrator could be identified by the victim.

    Are you really making this an argument?? in 5 years of time 86 assaults reported and 83 have “non-western appearance”. Simple police records (Norwegian) tell me that the reported assaults are about 4000 per year in Norway!! over that registered period it means 20.000 sexual assaults in Norway and 83 are “non-western appearances” in Oslo. Juggling statistics??

    By all means: Can you highlight this words of the Norwegian police. “non-western appearances”. I would be delighted if you can give me the content of this concept. I never have heard this one. Really cool!!

    Let’s continue this crime debate.

    Simple and funny.

    • Migrant Tales

      This strategy to ostracize, label and victimize whole groups is the problem. You will search hell and high water to discredit those you loathe. All that time you forget that people are not groups per say but individuals.

      JusticeDemon, should we start acquainting ourselves with Thai statistics to see how many pedophiles there are from here. That would make it easy to slap a label on the whole male population of that country. The Finnish male is already doomed. 🙂

  75. justicedemon

    Elf

    Even without clicking your link above, everyone can see that the headline says that “immigrants” are overrepresented in “Helsinki” statistics: Maahanmuuttajat yliedustettuina Helsingin väkivaltarikoksissa.

    The linked article then only discusses “foreign-born” suspects. This is a crass error for the reason that I explained. The “foreign born” population of Helsinki at any time (but particularly in summer) hugely exceeds its “immigrant” population, due to the very high number of visitors passing through. Furthermore, only about half of the immigrants that you are likely to encounter in Helsinki actually live in the city itself. At least as many immigrants live in the surrounding Vantaa–Espoo–Kauniainen region as in the City of Helsinki and they also pass through Helsinki frequently.

    This is primary school level statistical science, Elf. It’s the reason why offences committed at motorway service stations are excluded from figures illustrating the criminality of rural populations. Similarly city districts with major hospitals exclude those institutions from their local public health statistics. Otherwise you find that residents of Meilahti are hugely “overrepresented” in statistics on sexually transmitted diseases and so on.

    And you know this. Hence your embarrassed smilie.

  76. eyeopener

    Hi Blind Eye.

    Necessary to open your sewer?? Obviously becuase I think that you should give the evidence and not a police-officer!! It’s you who started with: Here is the correct rape (100%). Making a statement and then such a reaction disqualifies you as serious.

    Simple as that.

  77. Mark

    Elven

    So, Migrant Tales has adequately debunked your claim that 100% of rapes in a 5-year period were committed by Muslims or ‘foreigners’, whichever euphemism you prefer.

    So, is that the last we see of your bigoted, lying arse? I doubt it.

    You asked about what effect weighting would have, and the report was very clear on that, based on several Norwegian studies of crime referenced in the Police report:

    thorough quantitative research confirms that statistical differences in criminal behavior between ethnic groups disappear when the figures are controlled for the socio-economic circumstances in which the individuals concerned have grown up in Norway.

    and in the original Norwegian:

    Videre tilsier grundig kvantitativ forskning at den statistiske forskjellen i kriminell adferd mellom etniske grupper forsvinner dersom man kontrollerer for sosioøkonomiske forhold personene har vokst opp med her til lands.

    And the studies that this conclusion was based on:

    Statistics Norway: Skardhamar, T (2005)
    Offences careers and living standards – An analysis of birth cohort since 1977, Report No. 9, and Hallsta, Sarnecki & Szulkin (2011):

    So, now we know what you think. And now we know that it’s based entirely on media generated and right-wing fueled propoganda. The same propoganda referred to also by a gentleman in the news today, by the name of Anders Breivik. What good intellectual company you keep, Elven! Let me guess, I’m putting you into a group again!!!

  78. Mark

    Elven

    And Mark just claps his hands happily to this kind of prejudice, this behaviour very similar what the racists do. I find it disgusting.

    Mark is not responsible for what every other writer on this blog writes. I’m also not obliged to answer absolutely every point that I personally disagree with. If someone posts something and I don’t respond, you cannot assume that that is ‘Mark clapping his hands’. Such empty accusations do nothing for your reputation or my patience.

    But thank you for you input. This is the level of paranoia I was expecting to find amongst the core contributors of this blog.

    Actually, it turns out that that skepticism about the report was warranted. Yes, NRK appear to have run the story, although the sub-titles might be open to some questioning. Likewise, the jump from ‘foreigners’ to ‘Muslims’ is not made in the News piece. As this news piece was also criticized by the police for creating an inaccurate picture, i think we can safely dismiss it as institutional racism on the part of the broadcaster in Norway.

    It’s funny that everybody is always distorting. There’s nothing wrong in anything ever. And the problems are not the problems but the people talking about it.

    Critiquing culture is important. It is perhaps true that many of those defending immigration have been reluctant to talk about the problems of immigration, some of which do involve different values and how best to integrate those into the host culture. But the problem is very clearly the atmosphere in which this debate takes place. The Right and Far Right have literally jumped on absolutely every shred of evidence they can to discredit multiculturalism, and so any ‘open’ discussion of problems is likely to backfire. On the other hand, it is also abundantly clear that many of those sociologists that you so despise are exactly the ones doing the kind of balanced appraisal of immigrant conditions and the coming together of different cultural elements. A good place to start would be Social Work and Minorities:
    European Perspectives by Charlotte Williams, Haluk Soydan, Mark Johnson

    About Islam in Somalia? About women’s rights in Somalia? About gays’ rights in Somalia? Freedom of speech? I really thought these subjects are forbidden and concidered racist even just mentioning those.

    So, you do have opinions about Somalia! 🙂 Why don’t you go an talk to the Somali diaspora here in Finland about the situation? What you will find is that Islam is not a homogenous single entity that is the same from one end of the globe to the other, but is in fact like all the major religions, it is affected by local cultures, it is nuanced and varied in interpretation, and it is currently undergoing profound change. ONE and only one element of that change is radicalisation, or political Islam. This is not a topic that is ‘off the table’ as far as I’m concerned, but I’m not prepared to have this discussion with an obvious bigot, simply because it really would be a waste of my time. However, if you show some genuine sincerity to debate this topic in a broad and balanced manner, I’d be happy to dispel the notion that multiculturalists are completely blind to the problems of extremism.

    However, I will point out, and today of all days it should be fairly pertinent, that extremism comes in many forms, and that much of the counter-jihad ideology developing across Europe is itself a form of extremism, even if it often comes in the form of ‘gentle hatred’.

  79. Elven archer

    MT, assault rape is a sub category of rape, don’t mix them up in numbers. And a little source critic would be in order too… intifada? Accusing zionists? Really? Yeah, it’s a big conspiracy again. And 2010 is only one year. please remember that too.

    And I’m still waiting for Mark to talk about those values. Well, it’s Mark, so obviously he’s skipping the hard stuff and concentrates on dodging (or legos) in his usual way: moving the attention away from the subject by lying this way:

    “So, now we know that you think more African men commit rape”

    Where did I say that, Mark? Where even the news said that? It (like duh, not me) talked about non-western. Have you any idea how much this tactics of yours if laughed at outside this little alternate realm here? Hopefully not, you could feel bad if you knew.

    I guess I’ll never hear your take on those values. What a pity. Obviously you are just too busy and not like… afraid to tackle those issues? That must be it, you are just too busy 😉 You could have overridden every cultural study there is. They tell us there are differences. They tell us we are partly products of our culture. You really don’t have to be a cosmopolitan to figure it out in your own eyes but maybe some of us don’t travel that much… Or read. Or think. But whatever. I understand your position, Mark. You have an agenda. Talking about these things openly would hurt it. So you don’t.

    • Migrant Tales

      –MT, assault rape is a sub category of rape, don’t mix them up in numbers. And a little source critic would be in order too… intifada? Accusing zionists? Really? Yeah, it’s a big conspiracy again. And 2010 is only one year. please remember that too.

      Read the report and get back to us. How many rapes? How many assault rapes?

      I am going to say it again for a millionth time: At university in California they taught us that with statistics you can prove anything. What you are doing is that with statistics you convince yourself that something is true, like group x are all gang rapists etc.

  80. Mark

    Elven

    And I’m still waiting for Mark to talk about those values.

    I do have other things going on in my life. I’m not permanently at your beck and call, sonny boy!

  81. Elven archer

    “I do have other things going on in my life. I’m not permanently at your beck and call, sonny boy!”

    Of course. I figured that you are too busy and not like a chicken.

  82. Mark

    Elven

    Where did I say that, Mark? Where even the news said that? It (like duh, not me) talked about non-western. Have you any idea how much this tactics of yours if laughed at outside this little alternate realm here? Hopefully not, you could feel bad if you knew.

    Elven, this tactic of quoting several negative statistics (so far proven to be incorrect) and then backing out from the implied conclusion that you wish to infer is only pointing out that you are a coward.

    If you do not think that Blacks or Muslims or Africans are disproportionately represented, then stop dumping your Breivik manifesto of links to this internet shit! If you post this crap, then we are justified in thinking that you are trying to make a point about crime and these groupings. If you are not, then you are just a troll or you are insane.

    Speak your mind Elven, and put your cards on the table. I’m sick and tired of going around the houses and listening to you constantly whining that ‘this is not what I said’ or ‘this is not what I meant’. Say what you mean!

  83. Mark

    I understand your position, Mark. You have an agenda.

    I have absolutely no agenda, no political affiliation and no axe to grind. I have no vision of the society I would like to see, only opinions about the society in which I actually live. I have no hatreds that immediately come to mind and no topic that I won’t discuss. I have no religion to defend, and I feel no lasting offense from religion. I’m a grown man who has lived in and around at least 5 distinct cultures. I have several children and I’ve lived some life. I haven’t an enemy in the world among my social network. I have had extremely wealthy friends and extremely poor friends. I have seen various kinds of poverty and marginalization first-hand and I’ve seen utter wealth and opulence first hand. I’m not a socialist or a conservative, though generally speaking, I’m more skeptical of the right than I am of the left. Generally I’m skeptical of politics while appreciating what an incredibly difficult job it is in practice.

    So, find the ‘agenda’ in amongst that.

  84. Mark

    Elven

    And a little source critic would be in order too… intifada? Accusing zionists? Really? Yeah, it’s a big conspiracy again.

    This is where you show some prejudice. Not everyone who is opposed to Israel is automatically a conspiracy theorist. The reference was to several ‘zionist’ websites, which is plain and simply, those sites that promote Israel’s agenda and diminishes or denigrates Muslims. You have to understand that there are two sides to this Middle-East issue, and that there are people with good sense on both sides. Al Jazeera for example is a bloody good news outlet.

  85. Väinämöinen

    ”Read the report and get back to us. How many rapes? How many assault rapes? ”

    in the video 86 as. rapes and 83 of the rapes where the perpretrator could be identified was all non-western.

    • Migrant Tales

      OK, Väinämöinen now who are these non-Westerners? You are only showing me double-digit figures. How many foreigners live in Norway?

      Here’s more for you on the topic chew on: There is enough research from all over the world demonstrating that rape and sexual assault are, unfortunately, universal problems that cross all national, geographic, ethnic and religious boundaries.

      This was underscored by a recent study which found, as The New York Times reported:

      One in 10 Norwegian women over the age of 15 has been raped, according to the country’s largest shelter organization, the Secretariat of the Shelter Movement. But at least 80 percent of these cases are never brought to official attention and only 10 percent of those that are end in a conviction, the Justice Ministry says.

      Nowhere is this taboo more stubborn than in the family home, long considered off-limits for law enforcement and the state.

      “The statistics tell us that the safest place for women is outside, on the street – most rapes happen at home,” said Tove Smaadahl, general manager of the Shelter Movement. In a 2005 survey by the Norwegian Institute for Urban and Regional Research, 9 percent of female respondents in a relationship reported experiencing sexual assault.

      By the way, I saw you on one of Akseli Gallen-Kalella’s paintings on a boath trying to catch a minor. Explain this. The painting is called Aino and Väinämöinen.

  86. D4R

    Väinämöinen: Read the report and get back to us. How many rapes? How many assault rapes? ”

    in the video 86 as. rapes and 83 of the rapes where the perpretrator could be identified was all non-western.

    What’re you insinuating with this point? are you saying “some ” immigrants raped a woman so must all immigrants be a rapist? you Väinämöinen are embarrasment to your fellow Finns. Why don’t you talk about how many Finns kill their own children and spouse? how many were they recently? i guess we have to assume that it’s in Finnish gene to kill own family. Talk about that, leave aside rape cases to the police, nobody raped you, so let that be police case 🙂

  87. eyeopener

    D4R

    Väinämöinen or Elven Archer is clearly blind on his right eye. Or his right brain-part doesn’t exist.Or it exists but doesn’t function.

    He was clearly demasked and -poor boy- can’t stand the spanking.

    Simply not fit to stand the test. As usual!! Let’s have more fun with these guys.

    Mental ball-punching. Relaxing that is!!

  88. khr

    By the way, I saw you on one of Akseli Gallen-Kalella’s paintings on a boath trying to catch a minor. Explain this. The painting is called Aino and Väinämöinen.

    The age of Aino is not mentioned in Kalevala. She’s said to be young, but not underage. Apparently she’s considered old enough to marry. (Not that the issue would particularly on topic at MT).

  89. Elven archer

    “Mental ball-punching. Relaxing that is!!”

    Talking nonsense is hardly what you hope it would be. The real punching is done by arguments. Like those kinds of arguments that got your boy here, D4R, call people “sick like breivik” and more and so appear as… well.. just dumb. And those which got Mark flooding and then dedicating a blog entry just for me. So no, I don’t trust your sincerity in this matter.

  90. Väinämöinen

    D4R

    ”you Väinämöinen are embarrasment to your fellow Finns. ”

    I could not give less about that, what do you want me to say? Something bad about you, or the Somalis? I mean so that you get the opportunity to get offended what you are very good @. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    did you submit your application yet, for the theater-stuff?

  91. eyeopener

    Hi Elf.

    If you would have arguments you would come out and discuss. Unfortunately -as the past has shown in different threads here- you haven’t anything to say.

    Stamping around on somebody’s toes doesnot make you clever. You already knew that but you keep on pretending to be the “right guy”.

    Your sincerity has never been and never will be.

    Blind eye. Dig a little deeper. Not in your brain because you will not find anything there. But in the pile of “Shit” you have made for yourself.

    Simply hot stuff!!

Leave a Reply