Mitä monikulttuurisuus on?

by , under All categories, Susannah

Susannah

Kansanedustaja Saarakkala (ps) näyttää kuvittelevan, että monikulttuurisuus olisi joku poliittinen agenda: 

http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2012050315527919_uu.shtml?fb_ref=flb&fb_source=home_oneline

Mietitäänpä paria asiaa: mitä Suomen perustuslaki takaa Suomessa asuville?

Suomessa pitää elää maassa maan lailla. Se tarkoittaa sitä, että voimassa on uskonnonvapaus, sananvapaus, kokoontumisvapaus jne. (ks. tarkemmin luku 2 perusoikeudet).

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1999/19990731

Monikulttuurisuus ei siis ole mikään poliittinen agenda, vaan joukko menetelmiä ja ajatuksia, joilla moniarvoinen (vaan yhtä lakia noudattava) yhteiskunta pystyisi toimimaan (§6) yhdenvertaisuuden mukaan. Monikulttuurinen siis sitoutuu käsitteenä tiukasti Suomen lain hengen toteutumiseen.

Miten propagandaa tehdään termikaappauksilla?

”Saarakkalan mielestä esimerkiksi se, etteivät muslimitaustaiset naiset kulttuurisista syistä johtuen juurikaan solmia avioliittoja kristittyjen miesten kanssa, ei ole asia josta pitäisi monikulttuurisuuden edistämisen nimissä vaieta.”

Länsimaissa on perinteisesti annettu naisten valita omat puolisonsa. Saarakkala näyttää vieläpä kuvittelevan, että Suomessa asuisi natiiveina vain kristittyjä miehiä.

Tämä on klassinen esimerkki siitä, miten propagandaa koitetaan salonkikelpoistaa ”kaappaamalla” termejä ja vääntämällä ne oman agendan käyttöön. Tässä käytännön esimerkissä voidaan kyllä nähdä, miten tuollaiset yritykset päätyvät usein sellaiseen lopputulokseen, jossa ei ainakaan Suomen lakia tai kulttuuria kunnoiteta.

  1. Timo Kinnunen

    Maahanmuuttajan tiliote leviää Facebookissa
    Yhteisöpalvelu Facebookissa leviää lieksalaisen maahanmuuttajan tiliotteeksi väitetty asiakirja. Tiliotteessa näkyy Lieksan kaupungin rahatoimiston tilisiirtoja sekä henkilön nostoja tililtään. Lieksan poliisi aloittaa torstaina asian selvittelyn.
    Facebookissa leviää lieksalaisen maahanmuuttajan tiliotteesta osakuva, josta käyvät ilmi henkilön nimi, kotiosoite sekä useita tilitatapahtumia. Lieksan poliisi kuulustelee torstaina asianomistajaa eli tilinomistajaksi merkittyä henkilöä.

    – Torstaina tehdään asianomistajakuulustelu. Kyseessähän on asianomistajarikos. Mikäli asianomistajalla on asiassa rangaistusvaatimuksia, aloitetaan esitutkinta, rikoskomisario Antti Arponen Pohjois-Karjalan poliisista selventää.

    Mahdollisena rikosnimikkeenä on yksityiselämää koskevan tiedon levittäminen.

    Vaikuttaa erikoiselta asiana ja menettelynä. En jätä asiaa tähän.

    – Marja Vanamo

    Syyttäjä: En jätä tähän
    Kihlakunnansyyttäjä Marja Vanamo sai tiedon maahanmuuttajan tiliotteeksi väitetystä paperista Yle Pohjois-Karjalalta.

    – Vaikuttaa erikoiselta asiana ja menettelynä. En jätä asiaa tähän, toteaa Vanamo.

    Syyttäjä tekee yhteistyötä poliisin kanssa mahdollisessa esitutkinnasssa.

    Pohjois-Karjalan käräjäoikeudessa puidaan torstaina myös rasistiseksi epäiltyä Facebook-ryhmää. Syytettynä on kahdeksan ihmistä.

  2. Naava

    Saarakkala on valitettavasti oikeassa siinä, että musliminaiset eivät saa mennä naimisiin kuin muslimimiehen kanssa. Muslimimies sitä vastoin voi mennä naimisiin hyvätapaisen kristityn tai juutalaisen kanssa. Mitään muita vaihtoehtoja ei suvaita muslimikulttuurissa. Näin myös Suomessa. Avioliitto on okei, jos käännyt muslimiksi.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hei Naava ja tervetuloa Migrant Talesin.

      –Avioliitto on okei, jos käännyt muslimiksi.

      Onko se näin? En usko.

  3. Naava

    Kerro toki, Migrant Tales, mikä on oma näkemyksesi asiasta? Saako musliminainen vapaasti valita aviopuolisonsa ei-muslimimiehistä Suomessa? Laki ja todellisuus eivät valitettavasti Suomessa kohtaa tässä asiassa, olivat käytetyt termit sitten mitä tahansa.

    • Migrant Tales

      Naava, I am going to respond to your question in English. You can respond back in Finnish. The first matter that made your claim fishy was how absolute it was. It’s like stating that ALL of group X are like that. Nothing can be 100% never mind when you are talking about groups and cultures. You are inferring that ALL Muslims disapprove marriages outside of the group. There are exceptions and if you look at these countries, like Finland, Muslims are a minority here as are Lutherans in Muslim countries.

      Let me give you an example of a Finnish family that moved to Colonia Finlandesa in 1906. When the daughter fell in love with a Russian the father flipped. They eloped and got married despite her father’s objections.

      In every culture the majority of people get married to the same group because they are the majority. Despite what you say, love does find a way and at the end of the day two people will make that decision despite everything. That is how strong love is.

      Do we accept marriages between black and whites in Finland? Even if some may discourage this, people do get married. Those that do, despite some of society’s disapproval, are the real brave ones. What I sense, as well, in your argument is that you want to put yourself on a higher moral mountain and justify your prejudice. If they don’t permit people from getting married (like in many of our cultures this is discouraged as well) outside of the group they must be “bad.”

      There are no such thing as “bad” cultures.

  4. Joni Pelkonen

    Saarakkala ymmärtänee että monikulttuurisuus ei oikeasti ole hänen maalailemansa viholliskuvan mukainen ilmiö, mutta hänellä onkin enemmän pelissä ja siksi hän höpöttää mitä höpöttää.

    a) Saarakkala vastustaa tasa-arvon toteutumista yhteiskunnassa

    b) Saarakkala tietää, että kun ihmiselämä epäinhimillistetään “maahanmuutoksi”, “sossupummeiksi” tjsp. sitä vastaan on paljon helpompi hyökätä.

  5. eyeopener

    Hi MT.

    Fully agree with your argumentation. I am an example of “mixed marriages”. Somebody objects? What’s your problem!!

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi eyeopener, my father and even I, as well as many millions, are like us. It is the history of humankind. We were meant to mix. That is why humankind built roads because we never believed in isolation.

  6. Toni

    Eye: “Fully agree with your argumentation. I am an example of “mixed marriages”. Somebody objects? What’s your problem!!”

    No-one objects!

    Sure we have many muslim women who are not so muslim and want to pick their own future with a non-muslim man. But unfortunately most of those women live in fear…

    So, you are a muslim woman who is in a relationship with a non-muslim man. I hope to hear more about this relationship. It is so tabu here!

  7. Timo Ojanen

    My perspective on the religious ban on inter-religious marriages for Muslim women is that, as far as I know, it is really what Islam says about the matter. Just as the faith of conservative Laestadians does not allow dancing, pre-marital sex, or TV watching. Nor would most conservative Laestadians, I guess, think well of a family member’s marriage with an atheist or a registered same-sex partnership with a person of any religious inclination. That is what their faith says.

    Does Finnish law forbid Laestadians to do these things? No. Does Finnish law forbid Muslim women to marry a man of another faith? No. Does the law allow Laestadians or Muslims to change or abandon their faith if they so choose? Yes. Is it difficult for Laestadians or Muslims to do these things, or retain their faith but not follow certain religious principles? Yes. Is there family pressure for every family member to follow these principles? Usually yes.

    Is this a matter a politician should be talking about? Judge for yourself.

    • Migrant Tales

      Timo Ojanen, JusticeDemon taught me an important phrase a long time ago: If it isn’t a problem don’t turn it into one.

      You are just itching, like some others here, to pick a fight. This is how your argument sound but let’s change a few things.

      Oh no! There are so many pedophiles in Finland and they are white, males and belong to x age group. What can I do? Should we lock them up? Let’s put them all in jail and make sure that they stay a safe distance from children. This should apply to males ages x to x. ALL MALES IN THIS AGE GROUP WHO ARE WHITE FINNS SHOULD BE HELD AS POTENTIAL PEDOPHILES.

      I hate pedophiles so much that I want to start a movement.

      Is this an effective way of tackling such a problem? I doubt it. We have laws and I trust our institutions.

      You know very well that human rights are paramount on Migrant Tales. We can also see throw these arguments the real aim: prejudice and Islamophobnia.

  8. Farang

    Enrique:

    “If it isn’t a problem don’t turn it into one.”

    That should apply to you also: “If it isn’t racist, don’t turn it into one” 🙂

  9. Timo Ojanen

    Enrique,

    I wonder if you saw the real intentions of my posting. Let me clarify.

    All I am saying is that all religions have practice rules that some believers readily choose to follow, that others are pressured to follow by social pressure from fellow believers, and that yet other believers choose not to follow at all or only to some extent.

    To choose not to follow those rules is a difficult decision for any religious person, but unless religious rules are turned into religious laws, it’s more of an individual dilemma for the believer than a legal problem. If it’s not a legal problem, it’s not necessarily what a politician should be concerned about in their capacity as a politician, since politicians’ primary role is to enact legislation.

    Please excuse me – I don’t see how my message was in contradiction with human rights principles, and I also don’t see the similarity with your hypothetical example.

  10. Timo Ojanen

    In Saarakkala’s case, I think his question to the government is quite trivial. Surely, having a policy of producing culturally diverse media contents would not mean for an institution like YLE that it could not produce media contents that discussed religious or cultural dilemmas…?

  11. justicedemon

    Timo

    Fair comment.

    It’s not at all clear how the laws of a liberal democracy and constitutional State could stop religious communities of any kind from establishing their own rules of inclusion. A slightly less controversial example might be Roman Catholicism, which uniformly requires that both partners in a sacramental marriage must be baptised Christians (though only one partner is required to be Catholic). This places an obvious constraint on anyone to whom a sacramental Catholic Church wedding is important. There are also restrictions preventing divorcees from remarrying in this way, and the infamous requirement that a marriage candidate must “be in good standing with the Church”.

    Somehow I couldn’t see Timo Soini supporting any legislative initiative that sought to interfere in such practices.

  12. Timo Ojanen

    For those of us who support separation of church and state, the state really has no business interfering in the marriage rules of any denomination, be they Catholic, Muslim, Laestadian or what have you.

  13. Timo Ojanen

    Then again, in some cases national legislation is stricter than religious rules – take the example of polygamy, for example, which is permitted by some religions. That the state doesn’t permit that even for followers of faiths that do allow it may be experienced as the state meddling in religious affairs internal to a religion.

    And while many of us are ready to defend the precedence of democratically enacted legislation to the religious rules of minorities, there are international examples of even legal exemptions permitted only to followers of certain religions – such as Christians being able to buy alcohol in Pakistan and Malaysia, or followers of the Native American Church being legally permitted to consume peyote as part of their ceremonies in the United States. Some think these constitute discrimination, some don’t.

    These issues can be tricky.

  14. Hannele Kosonen

    Hei, Migrant Tales ja muut!

    Ei voida kategorisoida enää “muslimi sitä ja tätä”. Kaikki riippuu esim. muslimitytön (naisen) vanhemmista. He eivät kaikki ajattele samoin. On siis täysin mahdollista, että muslimityttö /- nainen saa valita oman puolisonsa Suomessakin.

    Jos nyt asioita ajattelee ihan maalaisjärjellä, muslimeissakin on liberaalimpia, maallistuneempia ihmisiä.

    Puhun nimenomaan Suomesta ja ehkä samalla muista länsimaista. Olen tietoinen, että maailman kaikissa maissa ei ole samoin. Mutta väitös, että “kaikki muslimit” on Saarakkalan väitöksen “kaikki suomalaiset miehet ovat kristittyjä” tasoa.

  15. Sasu

    Varmaan kannattais kysyä joltain imaamilta tästä asiassa. Loppujen lopuksi muslimit eivät ole mikään yhteinen ryhmä jolla on yhteinen kanta. Jos me kysymme Syyrialiselta tai Pakistanin syrjäkyläläiseltä me saamme kaksi aivan erilaista vastausta. Kumpikin on muslimi maita. Pakistanilaiset kyläläiset ovat meidän petriksä fundamentalisteja ja Syyrialainen olis liberaali.

    En pidä sitä hirveen hyvänä, että me, jotka emme ole muslimeja alkaisimme väitellä mikä on muslimeilta kielettyä tai sallittua.

  16. justicedemon

    Timo

    The effective military service dispensation for Jehovah’s Witnesses is an obvious example. Polygamy is only legally significant to the extent that the old concept of barstardy is relevant nowadays. I can think of no legal difficulties at all, provided that fathers duly recognise their own paternity.

  17. D4R

    Hannele Kosonen : Hei, Migrant Tales ja muut!

    Ei voida kategorisoida enää “muslimi sitä ja tätä”. Kaikki riippuu esim. muslimitytön (naisen) vanhemmista. He eivät kaikki ajattele samoin. On siis täysin mahdollista, että muslimityttö /- nainen saa valita oman puolisonsa Suomessakin.

    Jos nyt asioita ajattelee ihan maalaisjärjellä, muslimeissakin on liberaalimpia, maallistuneempia ihmisiä.

    Puhun nimenomaan Suomesta ja ehkä samalla muista länsimaista. Olen tietoinen, että maailman kaikissa maissa ei ole samoin. Mutta väitös, että “kaikki muslimit” on Saarakkalan väitöksen “kaikki suomalaiset miehet ovat kristittyjä” tasoa.

    Kiitos Kommentista Hannele.

  18. Timo Ojanen

    Overall, it’s important to understand that faith as it’s taught is one thing, and the choices made by individuals, whether they agree with the official credo or not, are another.

    My Muslim friend in London did agree that drinking beer and whisky were forbidden by his religion, but he was usually the one to ask me to the pub. He did keep his beer can in a brown paper bag when we walked through the park in his neighbourhood, though, in case some of the elders of his community would see. And during Ramadan he abstained from alcohol altogether. I think his case is a good example of an individual who recognizes that his behaviour is in contradiction with his faith, but nevertheless thinks of himself as a believer, if also a sinner.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Timo, I think this is the whole issue as you pointed out: people make choices. They are not robots either because they have free will. People adapt constantly and learn how to get along in both cultures.

  19. eyeopener

    Hi Timo.

    When reading Finnish publications on alcohol use a lot of people will agree that you should not drink. A lot of publications are on cheating official papers, driving too fast etc etc. All convintions that many people share, support or…..

    Why do you bring up your Muslim friend to demonstrate “deflection of faith”?? Why don’t you use a Finn example?? As I have many (I am a foreigner!!)

    This is a lousy way of discussion. Please come up with better examples. Closer to home Timo!!

  20. eyeopener

    Hi Toni.

    Just shut up. You make assumptions basede on “quick-sand”. I am a foreigner. Yeah I am. Your problem is to assume I am a woman. You problem dear Toni: YOU HAVE NO F……g IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!! You don’t know anything about women. You don’t know anything about fear of “Muslim women”. You are just an absolute FAKE.

    BLABLABLA sorry because YOU THINK. Well dear Toni let me tell you something. GO TO CHECK YOUR BRAINS. Something’s is wrong with your association patterns. NEUROPHYSIOLOGY tells me you are in deep SHIT!!

    If I would be a Finnish woman I wouldn’t like to run into guys like you!!

    Toni. BRRRRRRRRRR!! Get yourself a “jerk off” in Ylirautio.

    And……..never ever pretend you know women. You have no idea!! Pissy!!

  21. Timo Ojanen

    Hi eyeopener,

    I gave that example since the discussion was on Muslims and the extent to which they do or don’t live their lives in keeping with the principles of Islam. I thought my example reflected well how an individual may reassert rather than deny the principles of their faith, and also readily admit to not following those principles. Obviously, people of all faiths do the same. However, it depends on the cultural context and the individual what exact behaviors or beliefs of theirs they find difficult to reconcile with their faith, and which ones they have no problem doing so with.

    Sorry if I failed to maintain your high discussion standards.

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