Migrant Tales: "I hope what I write isn't true"

by , under All categories, Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

After about five years of existence, 887 blog entries (including this one) and over 20,140 comments, I would like to make a confession: Deep inside I have always hoped that what I write isn’t true. Finland is a noble country and noble countries stay clear of racism and xenophobia, right? 

Still I do not know what is worse: The xenophobia, which has followed Finland like a shadow throughout its history, or the silence and indifference of too many politicians, academics, media and society in general. True, we are becoming familiar with this dark side of ourselves. Banishing our fears and prejudices will take a national effort and generations of hard work.

A fellow student from Kenya at Turku University in 1979 threw a cold bucket of reality on my face. John K. said that he was commonly harassed in public, complete strangers even threw stones at him. When I asked immigration researchers at the time why Finland had such a draconian attitude towards foreigners, his answer shocked me: “It’s to keep the trash out.”

At the time, there lived under 10,000 immigrants in the country.

The PS councilman Tommi Rautio scandal offered us yet another crude wake up. He, like many before him, forced us to see something unpleasant about us: the xenophobia and racism that has lurked out there in our society for a long time. It survives and continues to grows because of our lack of resolve.

How many Rautios are there in Finland? We could safely state that there are still too many.

I started Migrant Tales in 2007 and it didn’t take long for this blog to find its identity and place among a wide international group of bloggers.

Every day I write a blog entry I hope that what I say isn’t true. I tell myself, however, that that hope speaking back to me is nothing is nothing more than our denial.

  1. Ike Moss

    I hope what you say, and what I often think, isn’t true either.

    But in my view, Finland is not a racist country, whatever that might mean. After all, how otherwise would you explain over thirty per cent voting for a presidential candidate in a civil partnership with an Ecuadorian? And here in Helsinki, that rises to nearly fifty per cent.

    No, I think that Finns are generally tolerant people, and most of them welcome foreigners to their country. Sometimes it just feels like Finland is stuck in a time warp. Much like the preponderance of fifties cars and fashions, there is a kind of unreflexive racism which can disappear the moment it is challenged.

    Back in 2004, when I spent my first lengthy stay in Finland, I was talking to a fellow librarian in Helsinki about how it is that the Finnish education system is so successful. To my shock and surprise, she said: “Well we don’t have to deal with having so many immigrants like you do in the UK.” She was rather taken aback when I informed her that in London, the highest educational achievement is among immigrant children; white British children have one of the lowest levels.

    I hope I don’t sound too patronising – and sorry to go on for so long – when I say that Finland just needs to grow up a bit. It’s a young country, unsure of its place in the world. As it grows in confidence and maturity, I dream that immigrants and their descendants will be accepted fully as Finns. And the question ‘what is Finnish for “Black Finnish”?’ will have a ready answer.

    • Migrant Tales

      Good morning Ike, I am not stating that Finland is racist but the big issue is that we haven’t dealt with such social ills effectively partly due to our denial. I asked my mother once what she remembered about eh 1930s and 1940s. She said that one thing that bothered her was the anti-foreign sentiment. This sentiment has been at the root of the problem of racism and xenophobia.

      Like there are many exemplary Finns there are other ones that leave a lot to be desired.

      Do Finns have the ability as a society to tackle these social issues? Yes, I strongly believe so but we must do more than now.

      Probably this political nightmare brought on by the PS is waking up the best in Finns. Let’s hope so!

  2. Ike Moss

    (Sorry I left something out of the comment the first time I posted it. Feel free to trash it, and to edit out this parenthesis!)

    I hope what you say, and what I often think, isn’t true either.

    But in my view, Finland is not a racist country, whatever that might mean. After all, how otherwise would you explain over thirty per cent voting for a presidential candidate in a civil partnership with an Ecuadorian? And here in Helsinki, that rises to nearly fifty per cent.

    No, I think that Finns are generally tolerant people, and most of them welcome foreigners to their country. Sometimes it just feels like Finland is stuck in a time warp. Much like the preponderance of 50s cars and fashions, there is a kind of unthinking and unreflexive racism like we used to have in the UK forty or fifty years ago, which can disappear the moment it is challenged.

    Back in 2004, when I spent my first lengthy stay in Finland, I was talking to a fellow librarian in Helsinki about how it is that the Finnish education system is so successful. To my shock and surprise, she said: “Well we don’t have to deal with having so many immigrants like you do in the UK.” She was rather taken aback when I informed her that in London, the highest educational achievement is among immigrant children; white British children have one of the lowest levels.

    I hope I don’t sound too patronising – and sorry to go on for so long – when I say that Finland just needs to grow up a bit. It’s a young country, unsure of its place in the world. As it grows in confidence and maturity, I dream that immigrants and their descendants will be accepted fully as Finns. And the question ‘what is Finnish for “Black Finnish”?’ will have a ready answer.

  3. Anne Ceesay

    I am somewhat more pessimistic than Ike on this issue. He actually nailed the situation quite well with his example of the finnish librarian.(“Well we don’t have to deal with having so many immigrants like you do in the UK.” She was rather taken aback when I informed her that in London, the highest educational achievement is among immigrant children;). Yes, that is exactly the problem. Many people here REALLY think that being black or a refugee automatically means that one is stupid and suitable only for cleaning, and one doesn’t know languages (never mind that many immigrants speak many languages, but if their finnish is not perfect..well they don’t know any. Never mind the finns don’t speak anything else than finnish.). Teachers come out with such statements like “I treat immigrant children like any other kid with learning problems”… and therefore they never even expects those kids to achieve well at chool. These children don’t have a learning problem, they just need to learn the language! My 75 years old father advertises (in purpose) to his choir-mates how he has attended some african partys and how the Cameroonian president of the african association is a doctor in chemistry. His choir-mates hardly can beleive that. It doesn’t fit into their idea of africans even they don’t know any. Such a belief that a person is more stupid than us finns just because he is black or a refugee is nothing else than rasism in it’s purest sense. Tolerence is not enough because it doesn’t mean that people change their ways of thinking, they only hide it and it can explode back to surface as has happened here now. What we need is equality and understanding of equal human rights. As long as our school system doesn’t take this seriously, no real change can be expected from the next generation either.

  4. Mark

    Ike

    Asking if Finland is a racist country is not the right question, in my view. It’s not easy to answer and the question divides people unnecessarily into ‘yes’ and ‘no’ camps. The right question to ask is whether there is racism in Finland’, and if there is, what are its effects and what can be done about it? In practice, we do not have to assume racism, but just be open to the question and be prepared to investigate.

    Comparing racism in Finland with other countries is not particularly helpful if the only point is to see where we come in the league table, and if we are average or better than average then to simply fall asleep to the topic or ignore those trying to develop campaigns to minimise it.

    One argument is that immigration leads to problems. If this mistrust of immigrants leads to discrimination, then that creates problems. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy, where immigrants are the victims having had their rights to freedom and living free of discrimination violated, and all the while they are also blamed as the cause. i.e. immigrant = problem.

    Is it really just about psychology? No. But it’s part of it. Integration policies, acquiring new skills, adapting to different social expectations are part of it. Do people need to give up their own ethnicity or identity? Not necessarily. They may find that beliefs they had about society in their native country are not shared in the new country. That does not invalidate their ethnic identity or their freedom to campaign to make changes to the new country. Why? Because this is everyone’s democratic right.

    No, I think that Finns are generally tolerant people, and most of them welcome foreigners to their country.

    I absolutely agree and genuinely hope that the idiots don’t spoil Finland’s reputation. IN the same way that foreigners are not members of a visiting team, whose reputation can be spoiled by the bad behaviour of a few, so too the reputation of Finns should not be allowed to be tarnished because of the bad behaviour of a few. However, one of the greatest difficulties at present is arriving at this very simple stance. Why? Because the minute racism is mentioned, everyone gets defensive. When we are defensive, we genuinely do act like members of a team and can even reinforce the ‘team mentality’. It IS CRUCIAL that those that do work to spread awareness of racism are aware of this and do everything they can to break that dynamic of ‘team thinking’ or of making Finns feel like they should be responsible ‘as a team’. We are responsible as individuals. The good work starts there.

    Sometimes it just feels like Finland is stuck in a time warp. Much like the preponderance of 50s cars and fashions, there is a kind of unthinking and unreflexive racism like we used to have in the UK forty or fifty years ago, which can disappear the moment it is challenged.

    Yep, though some will tell you to “eff off, I’m not changing for anybody!” 😀

    Sorry if this sounds like a lecture. I’m not saying this because I think you need to know it. I’m saying it because I think that maybe some readers need to see this being said.

    Anne

    Tolerence is not enough because it doesn’t mean that people change their ways of thinking, they only hide it and it can explode back to surface as has happened here now. What we need is equality and understanding of equal human rights.

    I couldn’t agree more.

  5. Mark

    It IS CRUCIAL that those that do work to spread awareness of racism are aware of this and do everything they can to break that dynamic of ‘team thinking’ or of making Finns feel like they should be responsible ‘as a team’. We are responsible as individuals. The good work starts there.

    The one proviso I would add to this is institutions and employers. Then, it is clear that actions to protect human rights need to be collective.

    It’s very difficult if you lose your reputation. It’s hard to build it back again. English travellers abroad, especially those that follow sports, are tainted by the excesses of a few ‘lager louts’. But the consequences are largely short-lived. But for those foreigners who move to a new country, this dynamic cannot be allowed to settle. Immigrants are not tourists, they are individual citizens and should be acknowledged as such.

  6. GWH

    Interesting writing. I would say there is only 1 Rautio in Finland so far… At least i havent heard of any other prosecutions. There are always a share of wackoes in every country.

    Having a wide variety of foreign born friends in an in inland city, i would say that Finland is not racist at least to east asians, eastern europeans or middle easterns. Latin looking fellas seem to have it even easier than natives :-D. None of my friends look “african” so i cannot comment on their behalf.

    All my friends have jobs, which is more due to higher education than their origins. Most of my friends also speak decent finnish with some accent. Knowing major european languages helps at least 2 of them in getting a job and to get along in general.

  7. Andy

    Don’t forget Enrique that foreigners are convicted 10 times more often than Finns for hate speech/discrimination.

    When knowing the facts (overrepresentation which ranges what I have found from 4,5 to 55 times more than ethnic Finns) for instance in rapes and robberies amidst immigrants it awakens some thoughts.

    And further, when a single-mother of two says : I have to vote for Halla-Aho .

    Then you can ask, is it really true what Enrique is saying. Sure, he says it. But where are the arguments?

    The rational argument headline/topic would be:

    How can we foreigners make Finland less xenophobic, racist and generally a safer place?

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, I think we went over this with JusticeDemon and Mark pretty thoroughly.

      So what do you want to tell us? What’s your message and agenda? That’s pretty clear. Your argument sound like an old record that’s been playing for a long time in Finland. It is like an Ilta-Sanomat tabloid ad for August 13, 1992: “Somalis’ phone bill totals hundreds of thousands of marks.” Imagine what was pushed as “the truth” back then.

      Mark my words: All the baloney that people like Halla-aho, Hirvisaari and other writes today will be put shown as examples of racism in Finland at its worth in the future. It will be people from our culturally diverse society, those with Somali and Finnish backgrounds, that will study and expose the history of racism of Finland.

      The first thing you do to erase your racism from your speech is to stop seeing people in groups.

      But when you label whole group wholesale, you expose yourself and your inability to accept others.

  8. Farang

    Migrant Tales, you do that grouping of people yourself all the time, can’t you see? Especially PS is one group you demonise all the time. And then you preach to others that “don’t group people” 🙂

    • Migrant Tales

      –Especially PS is one group you demonise all the time.

      Farang, read what I write closely. I respect the election results but I oppose the PS. I make a distinction within the party: those that are far-right Suomen Sisu members led by Jussi Halla-aho and the SMP wing, led by Timo Soini.

      As far as I know, the PS are NOT an ethnic group.

  9. Andy

    Migrant Tales

    ask Mark how you create a profile of a population. It has nothing to do with subjective view(s). Even if I got aqauintant with all Somalis for instance, it would take me 20 years and then I would have start over from the beginning since people change, jobs, they move, they get children, they get different views on life etc.

    You are by evidence the ones who discuss certain racist people, over and over again.

    • Migrant Tales

      –You are by evidence the ones who discuss certain racist people, over and over again.

      And we are proud of this. This is not only lacking in Finnish society but an issue that is addressed by us. Our aim: …to be a voice for those whose views and situation are understood poorly and heard faintly by the media, politicians and public.

  10. Andy

    I acknowledged one thing when I was an immigrant myself. What people who integrated had in common was motivation and discipline. They wanted to be part of the society. This concerned both the so called third world and western citizens. There were a few third world guys who immigrated even faster than me, but most of third world did not, at all.

    Are you discriminating Same people since there are no shepards speaking Same here? What about the Swedish?

  11. Desertgnu

    Anne Ceessay and Ike Moss are right. Finland simply needs to grow up. In 2012 it is no longer acceptable to hear of the language and tone commonly used about people of various ethnic groups and backgrounds that one hears in Finland. And Anne’s sentence ”Tolerance is not enough” should be the banner, the rallying cry to start.

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, could you tell us how an immigrant is supposed to integrate into Finnish society. Possibly you have advice for Muslims, Somalis, Spaniards and other groups. Could you tell us your “top ten” advice for immigrants so they could integrate effectively into our society.

  12. Farang

    Migrant Tales, I can help you. There’s no need for separate advices for people of different background, same advice apply:
    1) Learn Finnish language
    2) Learn about Finnish culture and society (eg. learn how things work and are done in Finland)
    3) Forget everything about your own culture, which contradicts with Finnish law
    4) If something, which is traditionally normal in Finland offends you, either a) learn to live with it or b) get out

  13. Farang

    One sure way to screw up integration is if it’s expected that native people should adapt for the immigrants. It is arrogant from immigrants to move to another country and then starting to complain how things which have been normal in that country offends them.

    For example if immigrant complains about christmas event in school, he should be immediately expelled from the country. That kind of immigrants are only causing trouble and also causing negative attitudes towards immigrants among native population.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Are you discriminating Same people since there are no shepards speaking Same here? What about the Swedish?

      Could you elaborate. I don’t understand your question.

  14. Anne Ceesay

    Farang, I am finnish and I am complaining about christmas event at school. Haven’t heard of any immigrant to do so. I am not christian and neither is any of my children. I am not leaving this country either because I don’t aggree with christian christmas customs atn schools. It is stated very clearly in the “values of the education” that teaching has to be free of politics and religion”. How come that doesn’t apply to the schools festive events?? and how come it doesn’t apply to events that are not exactly teaching like the “aamunavaus” and praying before lunch?? I think christians would understand my view if instead of christian forse-feeding some teachers would start to feed some other religious beliefs and customs or political views to the kids. In my opinion the school festivities have to be such that every student and their parents can attend without feeling they are forcefed with one religion from year to another. Christians have their visits to church during the school hours so they have all the opportunity already as such to sing religious hymns and show religious plays, no-one is trying to take them away from them. That is 100% more than any other religion has.

    As long as no other religion and culture is respected and their festive days are not knowledged at schools too, I will hold this opinion of mine and also complain about the monocultural and monopolizing christian practises of the schools. They totally ignore people from other religious groups and non-religious people. I have nothing against any religion. They are a very big part of this world and the day when they are knowledged and respected equally at schools I will gladly allow my kid to participate to every celebration. It would be only very good education to multiculturalism, BUT, as long as it is only christianity that is offered I will keep my kid away… and keep complaining. :))

    (To avoid the “christmas is a christian festivity and if you are not christian you have no right to celebrate it”-kind of rubbish, that I have heard all, please check for example from wikipedia the origins of celebrating christmas…and it sure isn’t in christianity. :)) )

    • Migrant Tales

      –One of the best, most relevant posts I’ve read on here! Thank you!

      Totally agree on this one!

  15. Andy

    Sami and Swedish official languages in Finland. Samis are also known for their journeys to Brussels when expressing their views as a community.

    Will these people’s voice be recognized here and in their native form. Particularly the elderly Sami who might have a problem with Finnish and English.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Will these people’s voice be recognized here and in their native form. Particularly the elderly Sami who might have a problem with Finnish and English.

      We have had some stories posted in Swedish from HBL, none from the Saami. So does that mean that we have to wait for the Saami to get their full rights and acceptance before others can demand theirs in Finland? Is that your point?

  16. justicedemon

    Farang

    If something, which is traditionally normal in Finland offends you, either a) learn to live with it or b) get out

    For example:

    Noisy displays of public drunkenness in residential areas late at night are entirely normal in Finland and have been for years. Ditto disaffected youngsters riding noisy minibikes through these districts in the small hours. Homeless alcoholics sleeping in bus shelters are an established part of the landscape of Helsinki and other larger settlements in summer. Litter and dogs’ excrement are commonly found in city streets, and this has been true for decades. Air quality in city street canyons is very poor at certain times of year, but people cannot be persuaded to leave their cars at home. The per capita carbon footprint of the Helsinki Metropolitan Area is far higher than that of Stockholm, even though both are seaside towns at roughly the same latitude. Introverted personality types and passive-aggressive behaviour patterns are so common that this can almost be regarded as a national mental illness. The suicide and homicide rates are persistently the highest in the Nordic countries and among the highest in Europe.

    There is more than a grain of truth in almost every complaint in the following song:

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATXV3DzKv68&w=594&h=365]

    Kolmosessa haisee kusi.

    Now either you are not “offended” by any of these things (perhaps because you are causing the problem on the number 3 tram and elsewhere), or it’s time for you to get out while the rest of us, Finns and immigrants alike, try to do something about these challenges. I neither recognise nor respect your assumed authority to order me not to be offended by aspects of life in Finland that could clearly be better, just because you claim to be comfortable with those aspects. In issuing such orders, you merely become something new that is offensive.

  17. Farang

    Anne: Christmas is more of a tradition than it is a religious ceremony. I am an atheist, not a christian but still I’m happy to keep days off work during christmas. I agree with you mostly, religion and politics should not be mixed with school.

    Justicedemon: Idiots being drunk in public is not the desired situation, not even by Finns.

    Seems that you cannot argue against my point so you take literally idiotic examples. Grow up!

  18. Andy

    Ten step plan for immigrants

    1: Gratitude. Feel and express gratitude towards the new society and the opportunity that life is giving you.
    2. Start with the language, new dimensions will open already after two weeks of studying.
    3. Adhere to the Finnish laws and respect the police. If you repeatedly get involved in violence, consider leaving Finland before you become too great danger to yourself and/or others.
    4. Get an education or job. If mentally and physically disable people can work, then most of the immigrants can work too.
    5. Get a hobby where you have to meet Finnish people, football, floorball, scouts, skate-boarding, fishing, art-course, dance, literature, additional language-course, Swedish, Russian, Estonian etc. Lotsa nature also in Helsinki area. Social networking.
    6. No drugs, no alcohol. If used then alcohol in low consumption. 100% negative for drugs.
    7. Good diet, preferably low-carb vegetarian diet. Fish is recommended and small nr of chicken and turkey also. Morning is good to start with two cooked eggs. Broccoli, peas, beans and other similar to be emphasized. Coffee can do but drink mainly water.
    8. Minimum of 30 mins of exersice at least twice a week. Walk distances that are reasonable, bike bikeable distances etc. Walk up the stairs in your house.
    9. Stand up for you rights but keep your feet out of incessant repetitive nagging.
    10. Remember! There will always be outsiders, but you can by your own input reduce that risk happening to yourself. If you delibaretly get to the outskirts, then you can expect to be treated accordingly.

    Integration or assimilation is not an obligation but a lifetime opportunity.

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, thank you for the list. I see, however, some major problems. You are speaking about one-way integration. In other words, you don’t have to do anything to adapt to our ever-culturally diverse society, right? Nowhere in the ten points do you use the term “equality.” What does “stand up for your rights but keep you feet out of incessant repetitive nagging?” Does this mean that you can only state your case once, wait for the majority culture to accept it or give it the thumbs down, and return to your life with “gratitude?”

      I don’t understand how integration and assimilation are the same thing. The former usually means two-way adaption while the latter is one-way.

      If you are a Swedish- or Saami-speaking Finn, what would happen to you if we took away your right to your culture? We’d discourage you to learn Swedish and force you to accept the majority’s culture? Do you think that would fuel greater self-esteem or lower it?

      What do you think happened to indigenous populations in The Americas?

  19. Stevie

    Anne Ceesay

    Sure, we live in very dark times since we haven’t seen through the nonsense happening, but actually the fact that you have not heard complaints of immigrants doesn’t mean it’s happening, does it?

    ONLY APPROACH SHOULD BE:

    No space in schools or any other public establishments for religions.

    As we well have heard necklaces with a cross are provocative, then we should continue to dismantle all religious garment and symbols in public. Religions belong to buildings where you practice them and at people’s homes of course.

    I personally suggest schools to take holiday during the dark times. In the winter you need the sun and light, you can get a boost from more southern places when travelling there, perhaps in January when you need the sun the most. Summer is good time to stay at school or at work. People are happier in the summer and they function better.

    Any religious demonstration should be banned. All religous publicity should be avoided.

  20. justicedemon

    Farang

    Did you hear that?

    It was the sound of goalposts moving.

    You began by saying that we should learn to live with things that are traditionally normal in Finland or leave the country.

    When I point out some of the very tangible things that you are talking about, then you change your tune to talk about things that you personally think are a desired situation.

    What guarantee is there that your desired situation corresponds to that of anyone else, and how could you conceivably determine this correspondence without debating such questions?

    It’s not clear what qualifies you in this context to call anyone an idiot or to speak on behalf of Finns in general – including those idiots. But of course it’s a significant shift to move from “things that are traditionally normal in Finland” to someone’s “desired situation“, and it is staggeringly arrogant of you in either case to use this as a criterion for issuing orders to anyone, Finn or immigrant, who perceives room for improvement in any aspect of the national life.

    Respect for the law is traditionally normal in Finland, so where is your respect for sections 6 and 11-14 of the Finnish Constitution? Or is that somehow not your personal desired situation?

  21. Elven archer

    “All the baloney that people like Halla-aho, Hirvisaari and other writes today will be put shown as examples of racism in Finland at its worth in the future”

    So you think that the official statistics are racist? Because those men mostly take their stuff from there. Why do you believe they are so popular? Because they are believable. Everybody can check if what they said was true. And believe me, so many have desperately wanted to prove they are not. You can’t write a very popular blog like Halla-aho, be about the most googled politician in Finland and just lie. No, you would get caught right away and lose your credibility. He hasn’t. If they speak the truth, where’s racism? Can the truth be racism?

  22. Elven archer

    “The first thing you do to erase your racism from your speech is to stop seeing people in groups.”

    It’s impossible to make nation wide immigration policies without generalizing. Actually you can’t make any politic decision without generalizing people to groups (farmers, pensioners, single moms and so on). There are just too many people to be handled separately, to make laws and courses of conducts for everybody separately. That doesn’t mean that you shoudn’t treat an individual individually when you meet someone. But the need (as in it’s absolutely necessary) of generalizing explains what people like Halla-aho are saying. It’s not rascism.

    Considering marketing. It’s all about segments. And what forms a segment? The similar kind of needs or wants or behaviour. This is the basis of marketing. Why would that not apply here? Is marketing racist because it generalizes? Of course not. And does marketing get it right when they generalize us to different groups? Well, they do sell a lot of stuff to us.

  23. Farang

    Ok, fair enough, let’s ask people here to comment.

    In MY OPINION it is a desired state that there are no drunk idiots making noise and causing trouble in public places.

    If someone here as an opposite desires, please let us know.

    Then about Christmas. If Finland would stop celebrating Christmas in schools, the initiative should come from Finns themselves if they don’t feel celebrating Christmas in schools ais a good thing. But the reason can’t be that immigrants are finding it offensive. If immigrants find offensive something that native people don’t, the only proper solution is an immigrant to learn to tolerate it. Finnish people are not supposed to change their behaviour because of immigrants, it’s the other way around.

    That is one big reason for people to become racists. When a Finnish persons feels that immigrants are causing pressure on him/her to change the way of living, which has been acceptable before, he would easily concentrate the hatred and frustration to all immigrants.

    Maybe it’s the Finnish mentality and understanding. When Finnish person moves to another country (therefore becoming an immigrant) he would never start to criticising that country and trying to demand changes because of himself. When we go abroad, we will learn to live by their rules. That’s why we expect same from the people who come here.

    I have a question for all you immigrants in this blog: If you see Finland as so racist and terrible place, why do you want to live here?

  24. Andy

    Well, you asked for advice for immigrants. Equality is more the Finnish/Finland’s responsability. Copy things that work in other countries. As above, religions belong to buildings where they are practiced. When you start talking about them you usually end up in dispute. This is the only way in terms of equlity, otherwise you can never reach a solution that all parts are happy with. The state should stop collection and allocating taxes for the church(es). If religions aren’t visible in the society then it probably reduces any form of religious discrimination.

    Tricky with nagging, try to distinguish between harmless assholes and purposely harmful people making your life difficult by violence, discrimination etc.

    For instance:

    -you see a middle finger. It is your duty to keep walking and not engage with loosers like that. You simply don’t have time for that.
    -Somebody shouts nasty things when you walk through a shopping mall and you need to meet your friend. Keep walking, you do not have time for that shit. (u may report it afterwards)
    -the drunk Finnish man in the pub or in the street is not the best conversater, choose to talk to somebody else.
    -I would say that the line is crossed when mental or physical humiliation occurs in threats, confontrations or similar, then it is time to respond. The Perkele-strategy is good at times. Rather happy than right. Choose the way the makes your life easy but keep your rights.

    Hmm, languages and miniorities. Don’t really have any view of that. However, I grew up in a more Swedish speaking city with native Swedish language but I get rather tired when I (have to) defend the language from my own view.

    Funny however. Native-Finns consider (they actually do and it is proven at occasions) that Swedish people are better people, they live in nice villas, have boats, they get better educated and so forth. Many times for reason. But some of these people forget how they discriminated and even beat up the ”hurris”, simply because they were speaking another language than themselves.

  25. Andy

    what do guys think should be done in order to avoid immigration failing like in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, France, UK, The Netherlands, Germany and so on

    • Migrant Tales

      –what do guys think should be done in order to avoid immigration failing like in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, France, UK, The Netherlands, Germany and so on

      How do you define “failing?” Please elaborate.

  26. justicedemon

    Farang

    You are still playing tinpot despot:

    If immigrants find offensive something that native people don’t, the only proper solution is an immigrant to learn to tolerate it.

    “The native people”? Who? All of them? Every single last one of them? Why? Because you have ordered them not to find something offensive? Because you have taken it upon yourself to declare some of them deviant?

    Think of any aspect of the alleged national character or lifestyle whatsoever, and I guarantee that we can find at least one native Finn who detests that aspect. Mämmi? Yuk! Winter sports? Not on your life! Leijonat? A bunch of overpaid testosterone poisoned thugs! Conformity? We are not robots! Nonconformity? Another way to say troublemaking! City life? All form and no substance! Country life? Smelly, semi-civilised rednecks! etc. etc. ad nauseam ad infinitum. Your universal consensus of native Finns simply does not exist, because we all have our views and we are all constitutionally entitled to lobby for those views. What you perceive as complaining is what somebody else understands as lobbying.

    Your views concerning alcohol are quite evidently not universally agreed in Finland, as Päivi Räsänen discovered to her cost recently after stepping on this particular wasps’ nest. An immigrant clearly has a very broad choice of camps to join there, ranging from total prohibition to complete deregulation, as indeed on every other topic of social concern.

    It is not your place to tell others, Finns or immigrants, what they must tolerate in this sense. Your only proper solution is the remedy of a petty dictator who cannot stand natural human diversity.

  27. justicedemon

    Farang

    When Finnish person moves to another country (therefore becoming an immigrant) he would never start to criticising that country and trying to demand changes because of himself.

    So the Finnish immigrants who became the backbone of the trade union movement in the USA were not critical and did not lobby for change?

  28. Andy

    Denmark, UK, and Germany has as far as I know official statements of failed immigration. The Netherlands tend to indicate the same message.

    Sweden:

    active terrorism in immigrant-Malmö stated by the Swedish Government in a report 2007. Asylum- seekers stating in the same report ”too dangerous here, we better leave.” The Swedish population has risen over a period of time 16 %, in the same period the sexual crimes have risen 873 % and have a huge foreign overrepresentation. Sweden want to introduce low tax-zone in Malmö as an incentive to employ and engage in entrepreneurship is both a sign of failure and inequality. City of Malmö emptying of native Swedish people. Some other cities have problems with immigrants as well.

    Norway:

    100 % of assault-rapes were commited by foreign or non-western men over a period of five years in Oslo. Robberies and muggings tend also to be foreign art. East-Oslo is emptying of native Norwegians and this has been acknowledged at parliamentary level.

    Belgium:

    Prior to the goverment crisis there was a statement that Flanders wanted to become an independent state, The Republic of Flanders. It was commonly seen as a joke. Later when the crisis took up speed it was presented as a economical battle between Flanders and Wallonia, Flanders lacking interest to pay for the poorer Wallonia. Finally it was presented by the truth, loss of freedom of speech because of immigration matters. Immigration has caused deep socio-economical problems among immigrants in Belgium.

    France:

    Too many areas where immigrants live are classified dangerous by and for the police and native-citizens. Suburbs and cities rebult or reconstructed to be kept safer where immigrants live not for the immigrats but mainly for the poilce. Car burnings is a triviality that mainly immigrants carry out.

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, seriously, I could drum up and underline the same things about the so-called native population. But this is all pretty stupid, misleading and another way of victimizing whole groups. So? And, what do you suggest? All you are doing is whining. There is no other value to what you are attempting to put across.

      You had a rough time with JusticeDemon and Mark debating about elementary principles of statistics. Moreover, that claim you made about rapes in Norway has been disproven. You copied it directly from PS MP James Hirvisaari who suggested — are you ready for this — that Breivik went on the killing rampage because of poor immigration policy and these 100% rapes by only foreigners. Doesn’t it dawn on you that when anyone speaks in absolute terms (eg 100%) there is something fishy?

      All that you are saying on this comment is a big red herring.

      By the way, here is a good blog entry by Uusi Suomi edtor Markku Huusko that shows how low PS MPs like Jussi Halla-aho and James Hirvisaari can stoop to lure voters. It is in my book a bad case of political opportunism and chicanery.

      The problem with these people’s views like yours is that you are only whining to gain attention. And? What next? Are you able to bring anything constructive like solutions? Or is it only whining about how I can’t stand immigrants because I feel insecure about who I am? Is that what all this is all about?

      As far as I know, you are not running for office, right?

  29. Andy

    I was asking for solutions, on this. If the information is wrong, pls correct.

    Answers and solutions please.

    Why are native people moving away from East-Oslo, London and Malmö?
    Why did the Belgium government crisis take place?
    Why did immigrants become a threat like in Denmark?
    Why are hundreds or perhaps thousands of suburbs in France dangerous by the police?
    Why are many places dangourous in Denmark and the Netherlands?
    Why is Malmö worse than the country where asylum seekers came from?

    • Migrant Tales

      This is an old story and does not imply that researchers (do you mean all researchers?) listen to Halla-aho. By the way, he’s been strangely quiet these last months. This shows, in my opinion, that the media and people understand what his agenda is. If you have read our blog, we already predicted after the killings in Norway that matters have taken an about-turn for far right anti-immigration groups. Here are two links that may interest you: http://wp.me/p4UBR-1Jn and http://wp.me/p4UBR-1PB.

  30. Mark

    Andy

    here what researcher say about Jussi Halla-aho.

    Yep, and they say that they should not dismiss him as stupid or other PS politicians as stupid, that they make clever arguments that should be properly debunked, but that unfortunately only a handful of other politicians have the knowledge and experience to be able to deal with their vacuous arguments.

  31. Farang

    Hilarious to see how Migrant Tales and Mark are squirming because they can’t answer to or counter any of the points Andy raised 😀 They just do what they do everytime, try to move the focus away from the matters so that they can avoid answering them. And this is because they can’t anwer to those questions, because no matter how they answer, they would either reveal that they are lying or that they are ignorant. And they sure don’t want to look either way 🙂

  32. Farang

    Justicedemon, are you seriously saying that because 100 % of Finns are not 100 % agreeing on everything possible, we can’t say that Finns as nation has any opinion about anything?

    So that’s how you try to escape the fact that you sure know what I mean. There are things that are commonly (in democracy) defined as “normal” in Finland. For example in Finland it’s quite normal to eat pork, do you agree? Now, if some immigrant would try to forbid the eating of pork in Finland, would you consider that acceptable?

  33. Mark

    Andy

    I was asking for solutions, on this. If the information is wrong, pls correct.

    The information is what is called a selective social lens – snap shots of various social problems that afflict all societies and especially big cities over cycles, due largely to deprivation. Did you know that Thatcher was urged to simply ‘write off Liverpool’ in the 80s because of the social problems. This was one of the most historical cities in the UK absolutely ravaged by urban decay and massive inequality. The Toxteth riots was a watershed. Do you know what turned it around and who? Good old Tarzan himself, Heseltine, had to the foresight to realise that the only solution was new investment. Funny how you refer to the new low-tax zone in Mälmö as a sign of failure. Nothing could be further from the truth. The new zone is a sign of response, and the only response that will turn things around for Mälmö. People want jobs!

    Why are native people moving away from East-Oslo, London and Malmö?

    I can only speak for London, but the main reason is economic, not social.

    Why did the Belgium government crisis take place?

    If you understand Belgian politics, hats off to you – it’s incredibly complex, with fractures along language, cultural, geographic and political lines. The far-right parties of Flanders have gone through several changes, and were legally sanctioned for active policies of discrimination, forcing a name change and moderation of many their policies, in the early 2000s. I guess that’s what you mean by free speech – i.e. freedom for hate speech.

    Why did immigrants become a threat like in Denmark?

    Immigrants = threat = elimination of threat. That’s the formula. You could add on any country in the world, any event and then you claim to have proved your formula. I think I’ll call it the Moose Formula:

    moose = threat = elimination of threat. As proof, I offer the dozen or more annual deaths and many serious accidents on Finnish roads every year from the immigrant moose population, the huge car repair, the massive logistical investments necessary in protecting the roads with fences. Moose are notoriously crossing from the borders with Russia (somebody alert Häkkäräinen!) and from Sweden and Norway to the North and West. This pest species is intent of invading the whole of Europe as long ago as the last Ice Age. Many people say that for the sake of biological diversity, we should try to live with the moose. If it wasn’t for the necessary extermination of thousands of moose every year, their numbers would have exploded and the Finnish road system would become extremely dangerous. It is already too dangerous.

  34. Mark

    Farang

    Hilarious to see how Migrant Tales and Mark are squirming because they can’t answer to or counter any of the points Andy raised.

    Some of us also have a life, mate!

  35. Andy

    Migrant Tales n Mark

    Mark, the police regulates demonstrations in Belgium. Not a mayor, as he did illegally.

    Malmö, Even in Sweden everybody is taught to say ‘mångkultur är rikedom’, but strangely it ani’t enriching when it comes to money. It’s certainly enriching when it comes to crimes with many 100-%.

    I doesn’t really matter if Jussi Halla-aho is reflecting the things happening, those things are actually happening. Like it or not. Let’s give critics to the original article in original language, what is wrong in it? Odd, Swedish speaking paper releasing articles supporting true Finns?

    Let’s narrow down to the official versions, Belgium, UK, The Netherlands, Germany and Denmark. What measures should be taken to avoid similar in Finland? Solutions.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Malmö, Even in Sweden everybody is taught to say ‘mångkultur är rikedom’, but strangely it ani’t enriching when it comes to money. It’s certainly enriching when it comes to crimes with many 100-%.

      When you use the term “enriching” that reveals you use the language of far-right/populist anti-immigration groups. Certainly the reasons are complex why Malmö has a ghetto and why Rinkeby School is a shining example of how things can be done properly. I visited the school in January and got an understanding how it works. One important factor is community involvement and empowering students. By the tone of your arguments and your ten-point list, there’s not too much if any empowering or community involvement.

      Another matter that you must remember is that societies are made up of humans and, as you know, humans are not perfect.

      Another matter why I have serious doubts about your approach is that it is very expensive to the tax payer. You want people to integrate to society but on your terms, which would amount to failure. In your world, you can sit on your behind as the world adapts to you, right?

      So, if you brought some workable solutions and good models/practices like Rinkeby School, the end result would be a win-win situation for all sides. It always costs less to integrate people than exclude them with your prejudice.

      –What measures should be taken to avoid similar in Finland? Solutions.

      I told you many times that integration is a two-way process. Two-way acceptance, respect and equal opportunities to begin with. That’s will take you on the right path. Moreover I would debate your conclusions. Is Sweden a failure? England? Germany? Why not ask the question in the following manner: What could be done better?

      Where do you hear politicians of Finns showing leadership in this respect? Are you, Andy, doing that?

  36. Andy

    well, you have still not answered the questions.

    Term-mångkultur was invented by somebody else long ago. You did not read the article, it answers one of your questions on Halla-aho. Moreover you make false interpretations (translations perhaps) on http://wp.me/p4UBR-1Jn and http://wp.me/p4UBR-1PB. Here a fresher version by Guardian. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/06/far-right-rise-europe-report

    On a discussion level you can confront violence by starting with bank-topics as Justice Demon and many others here or you can judge violence on innocent people to hell. In the second option you should create laws making it difficult for these people to function in their stuff (as for instance Denmark is doing/has done). The first option presented is ignoring bad things in life happening, the second is acknowledging them, thus accepting life.

    The same with Finnish alcoholics. According themselves they are not drunkards, some of them claim they have never opened a bottle. Researchers say differently.

  37. Mark

    Andy

    Mark, the police regulates demonstrations in Belgium. Not a mayor, as he did illegally.

    And this is relevant to what?

    Malmö, Even in Sweden everybody is taught to say ‘mångkultur är rikedom’, but strangely it ani’t enriching when it comes to money.

    Not sure what you mean here, but I suppose you mean there’s no money in multiculturalism. The question of whether you can make money from multiculturalism is a bit like asking whether a whale could live in a thousand shoeboxes.

    There is something nonsensical about the question. Multiculturalism is not a ‘single’ thing, a whale. And indeed, every individual life that is lived in the skin of an immigrant or ethnic minority is different. Indeed, we do live in a thousand shoe boxes, each in their own location, each with their character, and somehow pulling it all together as if it was a single thing and then asking once again, can we live in the shoeboxes, it doesn’t make sense.

    No single individual can be responsible for this way you interpret multiculturalism as some kind of monolith. You seem to put as many of the problems that you can document relating to immigrants, and then ask is it worth it? But why not put all of the lives of the 5,000,000 Finns in Finland and document all the problems, both now and in the last 20 years, and then ask yourself again, is it worth it?

    My guess is that you would be pretty depressed after documenting ALL of the problems and burdens that we each carry. The picture would be the most bleakest. Really. It’s an exercise in absolute pessimism. And it would not work for a second if you were to attempt to do it under the title ‘does life in Finland work?’ The first criticism you would face would be, but how can you measure the quality of that life if you are only collecting the problems? If your reply is that you don’t look just for problems, and ask ‘show me the good stuff’, and then restrict the documentation to the media, then we would all struggle to give the ‘good stuff’ about life in Finland because the media largely focus almost exclusively on ‘bad news’.

    I’m really struggling to understand how you see this picture, Andy. You present such fragmented arguments, and I’m not sure if you basic point is ‘immigration is bad’, or ‘multiculturalism is bad’, or Somalis are bad, or Islam is bad. I don’t get it. There seems to be no focus to your discontent.

    If you had to sum up your views on immigration as it stands in one sentence, what would you say. And if you also had to sum up your view of what the answer is going to be, in one sentence, what would that be?

  38. Andy

    Term-mångkultur was invented by somebody else long ago. You did not read the article, it answers one of your questions on Halla-aho. Moreover you make false interpretations (translations perhaps) on the link presented. There is a fresher version on Guardian of right wings.

    On a discussion level you can confront violence by starting with bank-topics as Justice Demon and many others here or you can judge violence on innocent people to hell. In the second option you should create laws making it difficult for these people to function in their stuff (as for instance Denmark is doing/has done). The first option presented is ignoring bad things in life happening, the second is acknowledging them, thus accepting life.

    The same with Finnish alcoholics. According themselves they are not drunkards, some of them claim they have never opened a bottle. Researchers say differently, probably most of the Finns as well

  39. Andy

    Mark

    ”If you had to sum up your views on immigration as it stands in one sentence, what would you say. And if you also had to sum up your view of what the answer is going to be, in one sentence, what would that be”

    That is what I have been asking you now for a long time.

  40. Andy

    my view, well I only know what happens. I asked you for the solutions. The fact is that it fails.

    May be, too sloppy government-side integration in the early times of EU-predecessor time, followed by a greedy four freedom policy like with little room for member state decision making.

  41. Mark

    Andy

    Odd, Swedish speaking paper releasing articles supporting true Finns?

    That is absolutely not what the story you linked to was about. The story’s main point was that the True Finns got off too easily, because too many people did not take their arguments seriously, and so those arguments were not properly challenged.

    Han är otrolig skicklig på att använda medierna och vända anfall mot sig till sin egen fördel.

    Likewise, the story talks about how the Finnish media failed to see through the arguments being made by PS:

    De finländska medierna misslyckades precis som de holländska med att genomskåda det ohållbara i argumentationen.

    While Finnish journalists are thought to have addressed the social problems identified by PS more openly, they were also criticised for not being critical enough:

    Man har uppmärksammat de samhällsproblem som invandringen fört med sig, men inte nödvändigtvis varit så kritiska som man kunde önska.

    Professor Matti Wiberg’s opinion was that if the political system was working well, then there would be very little space for populist parties. He called for more focus on questioning the basic facts put out by PS and also less on personality stuff.

    Populistiska partier är en slags demokratisk hälsokontroll. I teorin finns det inget utrymme för populister i ett väl fungerande politiskt system. Det man kan önska från journalister är att koncentrera sig mera på helhetsbilden och grundläggande fakta och mindre på personer och ytligheter.

    So, Andy, which bit did I misinterpret? 😀

  42. Mark

    Andy

    my view, well I only know what happens. I asked you for the solutions. The fact is that it fails.

    I don’t think you have a balanced picture. Likewise, you might as well ask me to provide solutions to all Finland’s non-immigration social problems: high rates of alcoholism, youth unemployment, long-term unemployed, decaying rural economies, 50,000 Finnish children taken into care, inequalities in health despite knowing of the problem for years, suicide rate among men, lower average life span among men, persistent inequalities in the labour market for women, important service support staff on short-term contracts with very little employment security or benefits, and on and on.

    Maybe I’ll look at the problems that you bring up, and I’ll try to find out more about the specifics. In a general sense, I already mentioned Lord Heseltine’s successful efforts to regenerate Liverpool, which was also perceived to have problems in ‘ethnic relations’. One feature was the Police service, and the fact that they were not properly geared to serving a multiethnic society. These problems have to a large extent been solved through modernisation and investment.

    But are you really interested in answers, or are you operating on the belief that there are no answers except to be depressed about immigration.

    You did not address my point at all about your exercise in absolute pessimism and what would happen if we did a parallel exercise with the full Finnish population?

    May be, too sloppy government-side integration in the early times of EU-predecessor time, followed by a greedy four freedom policy like with little room for member state decision making.

    So, basically you are blaming the big bad outsider, the EU, and those Finnish politicians that gave away Finnish decision-making. That’s not an answer, that’s looking to apportion blame. The issues are local, and they must be addressed locally with the backing of central government. Civic action and mobilisation as well as modernisation of all the state’s institutions that deal with the problem are what are needed. In Liverpool, the police and other state actors were part of the problem, although the mindset that dominated was that the problem was that it was the ethnic population. The answer is somewhere in the middle.

    One thing is clear, name calling, by way of racial sluring, is really really really stupid! That is never ever going to be a solution. And don’t tell me that that is research, because it isn’t. It’s slogan warfare. It’s political propaganda. It is NOT research. Proper research attempts to get at all sides of a problem. Can you even begin to articulate what the problems are from the immigrant side? And don’t trot out that pathetic – they think everything is racism, because that is just another slogan from the right! If you put anything like the same effort into presenting the other side of the coin on this issue as you do on presenting the problems of immigrants, then I would take your concerns more seriously. I would be more convinced about your genuine concern – and not draw the conclusion that you are just dressing your bigotry with ‘facts’.

    • Migrant Tales

      –So, basically you are blaming the big bad outsider, the EU, and those Finnish politicians that gave away Finnish decision-making. That’s not an answer, that’s looking to apportion blame.

      Mark, the thing you will see is that after he gets rid of one scapegoat (EU) then he’ll find another. It’s the scapegoat mentality when, in fact, he should take a long and good look at our society. If you are a leader and the people you lead fail, then there is something wrong with you. Like many of his kind, Andy thinks that locals can have defects but immigrants must be flawless and perfect.

      Are you running for office, Andy?

  43. Andy

    here, my modest translated abstract

    -Journalists should have done more to check the PS in prior to the election.
    -don’t treat Jussi as a cunt, he turns opponents to allies
    -PS similar to Pim Fortuyn’s party, controversial
    -5 politicians in the Finnish parliament know about immigration
    -Finnish journalists more pragmatic than the blind Swedish brothers, blind since 1960 in issues on immigration (Yrsa Stenius, press ombudsman Sweden)
    -the other professor says journalists should have checked PS better

    PS! I voted green 🙂

    • Migrant Tales

      -Journalists should have done more to check the PS in prior to the election.
      Agree. The Finnish media failed miserably in asking the PS some simple questions.

      -don’t treat Jussi as a cunt, he turns opponents to allies
      I doubt he has many allies. But, then again, possibly many political parties agree with him. More before less today, I suspect.

      -PS similar to Pim Fortuyn’s party, controversial
      Agreed. The PS is anti-EU, anti-immigration and especially anti-Islam.

      -5 politicians in the Finnish parliament know about immigration
      I wouldn’t say Halla-aho knows about immigration and how it works. He’s a linguist. He understands alarmism, victimizing and reaping political benefits by ostracizing other groups. In the same way, I could start my Finnish-bashing club and become an “expert” of Finnish culture and social problems related to it. Ridiculous.

      -Finnish journalists more pragmatic than the blind Swedish brothers, blind since 1960 in issues on immigration (Yrsa Stenius, press ombudsman Sweden)
      -the other professor says journalists should have checked PS better
      You forget that those immigrants that came to Sweden brought economic prosperity. Without them Sweden would not be where it is today.

      -PS! I voted green
      So? Kari Rajamäki is a Social Democrat and Wille Rydman is from Kokoomus. What this shows is that in all parties you have an anti-immigration wing.

  44. Andy

    Mark

    Immigration was the pointed issue and as far as I have understood immigration should be discussed here. And my initial question was asking for solutions. Those were potential causes for failed immigration in my view. If things fail, you should do them differently in the future, right?

    Sure there are other problems as well.

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, I am still waiting for a definition from you on “failed immigration policy” or “country that has failed in immigration.” We have discussed somewhat Germany. Just because you point to Mälmö, you cannot stretch the point and conclude that immigration has failed in Sweden. In many respects, the Swedes have done things right and have a lot of experience in this field.

      I want to go back to what I said: integration is a two-way process (acceptance and respect) backed up by equal opportunities. That is a crucial starting point. If you have animosity and reticent attitudes by the majority, it is very difficult to kick start two-way integration.

      You may think that you are doing Finland a service through parties like the PS, but I would argue that it is going to hit our country hard. Why would skilled labor more to Finland? Maybe some would but you already create a disincentive(s).

  45. Andy

    Green, may be. I sort the rubbish, I move around by bicycle, I fly airlines respecting the green values (no Ryan-air) I buy organics etc. Is it enough?

    The initial question should be presented as there was no solution in sight. Who is your scapegoat, the immigrants?

    ”what do guys think should be done in order to avoid immigration failing like in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, France, UK, The Netherlands, Germany and so on”

    • Migrant Tales

      –”what do guys think should be done in order to avoid immigration failing like in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, France, UK, The Netherlands, Germany and so on”

      See me previous comment. By the way, could you define “immigrant failing?” How do you measure and identity that?

  46. Andy

    see the official statements to begin UK and Germany.

    France perhaps hundreds or 1000 of isolated areas dangerous for non-immigrants. Same in the Netherlands in smaller scale though. The Danish statement over muslims as worse than climate problems.

    Good luck!

  47. Andy

    a little help to you.

    no Somalis in taxies of 2 biggest taxi-companies in Odense. No somalies to nr night club in town in Odense.

    Helle Thorning Schmidt Social Democrat & opposition leader: ‘Iraqis got to go home’
    Lene Espersen Kons. leader & Deputy PM ‘Muslim threat worse than climate problem’.

    Jonke (Jørn Jønke Nielsen) is a spokesman for Hells Angels Denmark who recently became famous for publishing the so called ‘Jackal Manifesto’ which resonated deeply with large parts of the Danish public and even a number of mainstream politicians.

  48. Mark

    Immigration was the pointed issue and as far as I have understood immigration should be discussed here.

    Yes, Andy, but you present problems as signs of failure and therefore avoiding problems in the future, though you don’t really discuss how. My point is that the problems of immigrants should be treated as any of the other major social problems, each of which requires its own solutions. However, the picture you provide lacks balance. I mean, seriously, it lacks balance. Did you not realise the point about exploring all sides of the issue? Anything less, and especially done simply to support a populist political agenda is nothing more than pessimistic propoganda.

    What about the immigrant success stories? Why are these ignored in your analysis Andy?

  49. Mark

    Andy

    Helle Thorning Schmidt Social Democrat & opposition leader: ‘Iraqis got to go home’
    Lene Espersen Kons. leader & Deputy PM ‘Muslim threat worse than climate problem’.

    All this illustrates, like many of your posts relating to the politics of immigration and the politicisation of ethnicity is that Europe is lurching to the Right. The Right of Europe are mainly though not only the ones to attempt to steal the clothes of the populists for the simple reason that it is largely their support that is hemorrhaging to the far right.

    That populist rhetorics are successful at convincing ordinary voters to focusing on scapegoating foreigners for the social problems of society is no surprise Andy. That is why it’s called POPULISM, because it’s very good at creative popular support.

    It’s a new generation and perhaps they don’t realise the old tricks of populism and fascism or maybe these discovered some new tricks, but folks will catch up. Maybe we will even have to get to the point where they are in power and messing things up before the populace realise it’s being sold a pup. My guess is that we will having rising popularity for the next ten years and then things will start to return to normality. Let’s see what damage is done to social cohesion in the mean time with all this pessimism spreading like a God damn plague!

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, thank you for bringing to our attention the political opportunists, which there are many in Europe these days.

      You make me laugh: These politicians claim immigrants are the threat (nice red herring) when in fact the problem are these politicians. Remember, the threat to our present democratic way of life does not come from outside Europe, but is inside our borders. They are the politicians you quoted. who are they in Finland. Let’s begin from the PS… and then move on to some other ones in other parties.

  50. Andy

    it was you doing the analysis and providing solution.

    I think I mentioned the successful immigrants in one chapter, though in another country. In Niel Hardwick and Keke Armstrong but they tend to have problems with the ”sprit”, Valeri Popovits is doing well, foreigners running a bar in my house too.

    Copy them in your solution.

  51. Andy

    further reading.

    Should may be Denmark, Danish politicians come to Finland for a course in how to deal with immigration issues?

  52. Andy

    Migrant Tales

    ”You forget that those immigrants that came to Sweden brought economic prosperity. Without them Sweden would not be where it is today.”

    As we should give credit to these prosperers, shouldn’t we? It was the drunken Finns at Slussen contributing to this as they were for long time the biggest foreign group in Sweden.

  53. justicedemon

    Farang

    Justicedemon, are you seriously saying that because 100 % of Finns are not 100 % agreeing on everything possible, we can’t say that Finns as nation has any opinion about anything?

    Not at all, but you are suggesting that while those Finns are absolutely entitled to have differing opinions and to lobby others accordingly, this freedom should be denied to newcomers. That is the attitude of a tinpot dictator. Even if the nation has an opinion, it does not and cannot require everyone to share that opinion. Still less can it discriminate between individuals in extending freedom of opinion to some but not others. Your opinion on this very question differs from the stated opinion of Finland in its constitution, so by your own reasoning you should either learn to tolerate this opinion, or you should leave Finland and go and live somewhere where people do not enjoy freedom of opinion and expression.

    So that’s how you try to escape the fact that you sure know what I mean. There are things that are commonly (in democracy) defined as “normal” in Finland. For example in Finland it’s quite normal to eat pork, do you agree? Now, if some immigrant would try to forbid the eating of pork in Finland, would you consider that acceptable?

    Absolutely yes. Both Finns and immigrants have exactly the same right to campaign for prohibition of pork as for prohibition of alcohol, fur farming or motoring in city centres. If you are unable to accept this, then again that is your own tinpot dictator attitude towards the political rights and freedoms of others.

  54. Farang

    Justicedemon, sorry, but that’s not how it works.

    Here’s one example: You have a family and a house. In your house you have rules, which you and your family have agreed and you all obey those rules. Now, your neighbour comes to your house and would like you to change your rules in your house. Would you consider that rude?

    • Migrant Tales

      Farang, there is a problem with your example: A society is not a home and functions differently under laws that defend individual and group rights. This happens naturally at home but you will agree that a society is more complex than a family.

      If you ask my honest opinion, I think it is you that is having difficulty adapting to those rules. JusticeDemon gave you some good advice: read our Constitution and learn what the law it.

  55. Mary Mekko

    Ignoring cultural events one doesn’t like, Anne Ceesay, is a way of life for most Americans. Every year nonHispanics ignore Cinqo de Mayo, nonblacks ignore Martin Luther King Day, and so on. Sure, the media’s saturated with the music and speeches and parties around such things, but no matter what, in a free country like USA or Finland, no one can be forced to participate in these things. The TV, websites and so on can be switched off. And we do.

    That Finns will soon learn to tolerate nonFinnish events on an annual basis is obvious. But you, too, as an immigrant, have the right to ignore Christmas and St. Juhu’s day if you like. It’s true that travellers in Muslim countries must tolerate Ramadan for almost a month, with all its noise and parties and religious rant, but then, one can also try to just ignore their culture. On the other hand, one should ask, why is the traveller in those countries if she or he isn’t interested in the first place? Festivals and feast days are the DEFINITION of cultures, and one rejoices in them when travelling – it brings out the best in the natives.

    Think of the Finns as natives in a country you’re visiting (voluntarily, I hope!), and enjoy their elevated moods and generous spirits around Christmas time. Alas, it sounds like you really dislike the country you’ve chosen to live in, which is a curse for you, your kids and those Finns who sense your dislike.

    Ask yourself, as an intelligent person, why AM I in Finland? Am I nuts to dislike their holidays? Or am I just a picky and intolerant person who can’t adjust to others’ lives well? Am I perhaps harming, even poisoning, my children if they feel Christmas is a “wrong” thing to celebrate? An intolerant outsider parent is a tough thing to bear for children. They hate it.

  56. justicedemon

    Farang

    Here’s one example: You have a family and a house. In your house you have rules, which you and your family have agreed and you all obey those rules. Now, your neighbour comes to your house and would like you to change your rules in your house. Would you consider that rude?

    One of the principal rules in my home is that people are entitled to express their opinions and to submit justifications and lobby support for those opinions. Indeed we actively encourage all visitors and new residents to offer their observations and suggestions, and we encourage all new perspectives. If the toaster is too close to the curtains, then we prefer to hear this before the house burns down. We would not be so stupid as to slap down a comment to this effect simply because the toaster has always been in that place and newcomers have no right to call our attention to a danger that we have overlooked.

    If you are trying to show that admitting fewer points of view results in better solutions, then I suggest that you try another example, and then keep trying examples until you realise that the problem is in your own despotic mindset.

    • Migrant Tales

      JusticeDemon, Farang is a good example of what would happen if a far-right anti-immigration or a populist one like the PS would run things. The first matter that would fly out of the window are immigrants’ and minorities’ civil rights. There would be one set of rules for the white Finns and another one for the “other.” Check out, for example, the Nuiva Manifesto. It speaks volumes about how the PS would organize socially our society.

      It is, as you pointed out, the mindset of a despot. It reminds me of the arguments that those de facto regimes in Latin America during the 1970s. One of them was we must take away your civil rights to defend them. Any logic in that? Nope. Sounds like Farang and his crowd.

      Andy asked what must be done to make immigration work in Finland. I would suggest offering basic courses on Finnish society that would teach them the spirit of our laws, which promote social equality for all. It really surprises me how little some Finns know their own laws and, if given a chance, would apply them to immigrants and minorities in the same way as a de facto regime.

  57. El loco

    In Denmark there is a point system based on how to become a Danish citizen. This system is based on education and job-market activity of the individual. Marrying yourself Danish is difficult. Denmarks has widely desired for a full stop on importing non-western people.

    Deportation tough on people who commit crimes. A shotgun in your breast pocket in public and you get a one way ticket.

    How do you see this?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi El loco and welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales.

      –How do you see this (strict Danish deportation laws)?

      If you have read some of our previous blog entries on Denmark, you will quickly know that we think about the DPP. It is very sad what has happened during 2011-11.

  58. Andy

    Migrant Tales

    You have not yet presented any kind of attempt to solution for Denmark but you have given critics to my proposition.

    Don’t forget that I asked you, not vice versa.

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, about Denmark…The problem with Denmark aren’t the immigrants per say but the Danes in general and the Danish People’s Party in particular. What a mad house. I know that some PS MPs like Jussi Halla-aho have in high esteem the DPP model. I think it is shameful, racist and a sham.

  59. Farang

    Justicedemon: “If you are trying to show that admitting fewer points of view results in better solutions, then I suggest that you try another example, and then keep trying examples until you realise that the problem is in your own despotic mindset.”

    No, that’s not what I mean. Ofcourse it’s a good thing to hear suggestions, also from immigrants, which would benefit all. But if immigrants are giving suggestions, which would benefit immigrants on native people’s expense, that would be unacceptable.

  60. Farang

    Migrant Tales

    “Farang is a good example of what would happen if a far-right anti-immigration or a populist one like the PS would run things. The first matter that would fly out of the window are immigrants’ and minorities’ civil rights. There would be one set of rules for the white Finns and another one for the “other.””

    That’s not what I have said. Why do you put words in my mouth. I am only saying that as long as an immigrant doesn’t have Finnish citizenship, he shouldn’t have same rights. But immediately after he has the citizenship, he is 100 % Finn and must have 100 % same rights as everyone else.

    Does that clarify my opinion? Do you agree?

    • Migrant Tales

      –That’s not what I have said.

      The red herring says exactly that: two separate laws for different groups.

  61. Andy

    ”Does that clarify my opinion? Do you agree?”

    I disagree. The same rights to everybody regardless if you are a citizen or not. Voting in state-stuff should be allowed (and is evidently also so elsewhere).

  62. Andy

    may be a year with permanent living after receiving a ”yes” on the asylum request. Parliament- and president-elections don’t come that often

  63. justicedemon

    Farang

    And there is the sound of goalposts moving again, but perhaps they have finally reached the right place now.

    You began with this:

    If something, which is traditionally normal in Finland offends you, either a) learn to live with it or b) get out

    Confronted with the obvious point that there are plenty of traditionally normal things that both Finns and immigrants find offensive, and indeed we can always find at least one Finn who takes offence at any given aspect of the national life, you shifted to this:

    There are things that are commonly (in democracy) defined as “normal” in Finland. For example in Finland it’s quite normal to eat pork, do you agree? Now, if some immigrant would try to forbid the eating of pork in Finland, would you consider that acceptable?

    After I pointed out that any such tyranny of the majority is explicitly proscribed by the Finnish Constitution, you shifted again:

    O fcourse it’s a good thing to hear suggestions, also from immigrants, which would benefit all. But if immigrants are giving suggestions, which would benefit immigrants on native people’s expense, that would be unacceptable.

    Note that at the start (“tolerate it or leave“) you were denying immigrants the right to express dissenting views at all. Now you are willing to hear those views as part of a national cost/benefit debate. It is part of the very terms of reference of any such debate that measures taken should not disproportionately or otherwise unjustly benefit or disadvantage any section of society, so your qualification about what would be unacceptable is vacuous. The main point that you have now conceded is that immigrants have the same political lobbying rights as everyone else, and that it is fundamentally wrong for you or anybody else to try to silence them with “accept it or leave” arguments. QED.

    I recommend this one-page primer.

  64. Dueblöuto

    Denmark war was a fight between Hells Angels and muslim immigrants.

    Denmark sends away muslims if they have a Kalashnikov in the breast pocket. Muslims think it’s a violation of human rights to do so, unfair that Hells Angels stay in Denmark for the same offense.

    Denmark has in contrary to the earlier indications a rather good system covering most parts of life. Level of living is high in Denmark, unemployment around 4% for the past ten years, Danish people are kind and nice, one of the nicest people in this world in some studies.

    If you start pushing Hells Angels you are either really stupid or incredibly brave. If you start a fight against Hells Angels of Europe, which is the Danish Hells Angels then you either have lost all of your human sense and logical reasoning or you are a superhero or want to be one.

    • Migrant Tales

      Dueblöuto, I don’t need to push the Hells Angels around. A call to the police would be enough.

      Denmark is in my opinion a good example of a country that went overboard on its xenophobia. It is a sad case. The absolute leader here is none other than Pia Kjærsgaard and the Danish People’s Party and those who supported her. But then came July 22 and Anders Breivik appeared… Every thing changed on that tragic date in Norway, even the hate speech of parties like the DPP.

  65. Sasu

    “Ten step plan for immigrants

    1: Gratitude. Feel and express gratitude towards the new society and the opportunity that life is giving you.
    2. Start with the language, new dimensions will open already after two weeks of studying.
    3. Adhere to the Finnish laws and respect the police. If you repeatedly get involved in violence, consider leaving Finland before you become too great danger to yourself and/or others.
    4. Get an education or job. If mentally and physically disable people can work, then most of the immigrants can work too.
    5. Get a hobby where you have to meet Finnish people, football, floorball, scouts, skate-boarding, fishing, art-course, dance, literature, additional language-course, Swedish, Russian, Estonian etc. Lotsa nature also in Helsinki area. Social networking.
    6. No drugs, no alcohol. If used then alcohol in low consumption. 100% negative for drugs.
    7. Good diet, preferably low-carb vegetarian diet. Fish is recommended and small nr of chicken and turkey also. Morning is good to start with two cooked eggs. Broccoli, peas, beans and other similar to be emphasized. Coffee can do but drink mainly water.
    8. Minimum of 30 mins of exersice at least twice a week. Walk distances that are reasonable, bike bikeable distances etc. Walk up the stairs in your house.
    9. Stand up for you rights but keep your feet out of incessant repetitive nagging.
    10. Remember! There will always be outsiders, but you can by your own input reduce that risk happening to yourself. If you delibaretly get to the outskirts, then you can expect to be treated accordingly.

    Integration or assimilation is not an obligation but a lifetime opportunity.”
    Andy

    Tämä hienon ohjenuoran pahin ongelma on jo numero ykkösessä. Miksi maahanmuuttajien pitäisi tuntea mitään kiitollisuutta siitä, että olet tullut maahan. Ymmärtäisin sen jos kaikki maahanmuuttajat olisivat pakolaisia, mutta näin ei ole. Suurin osa maahanmuuttajista ovat Eurooppalaisia ja työnperäisiä muuttajia. On tietenkin joitakin niitä jotka tulevat ihmissuhteen kautta.
    Muuten ehdotukset ovat aika hyviä vaikkakin itsettäänselvyyksiä. Vaikka saavuttaisit tämän, se ei takaa mitään, mutta antaa etumatkaa muihin maahanmuuttajiin.

    • Migrant Tales

      Sasu, Andyn ten-point plan on puutteellinen. Siinä ei mainita ollenkaan “tasa-arvo” tai “yhdenvertaisuus.”

  66. Andy

    Sasu

    ”Andy, could you tell us how an immigrant is supposed to integrate into Finnish society. Possibly you have advice for Muslims, Somalis, Spaniards and other groups. Could you tell us your “top ten” advice for immigrants so they could integrate effectively into our society.”

    Miksi ihminen muuttaa?
    Muuttaako hän siksi että pääsisi valittamaan?

    Mikä sun versio on?

  67. Andy

    Read Enrique.

    Stand up for your rights, it’s not you who set the rules but it’s your duty to keep your rights.

    Those who integrate don’t need advice. 🙂

    version de terrieri SVP.

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, those who integrate and are part of society take a part in it. Don’t you agree?

  68. Farang

    Migrant Tales:

    “The red herring says exactly that: two separate laws for different groups.”

    Are you seriously saying that? If we follow that same logic, then you could also say that “we have separate laws for different groups because we put criminals in prison”.

    That’s not having separate laws. People who are not citizens don’t deserve same benefits and rights as native people. Most of the services for example have been funded by tax payers. Why should those services be offered to outsiders for free? Get a job, pay taxes, enjoy!

    • Migrant Tales

      –Most of the services for example have been funded by tax payers. Why should those services be offered to outsiders for free? Get a job, pay taxes, enjoy!

      This is exactly the point about two laws for two groups. Thank you for clearing it up.

      I have a question for you: If you did not permit certain people from getting social benefits because they can’t get a job (language, professional skills etc), don’t you think that contradiction would hinder our sense of fairness as a society? To use the Hommaforum term, “that would be apartheid!”

      Society must play ball together. Values such as equality, equal opportunities and justice strengthen our society. By denying a group these rights what you are in essence doing is undermining our society. Instead of blaming immigrants, why not point the finger a politicians and policy makers?

  69. Sasu

    Andy, Maahanmuuttajien sopeutuminen uuteen kotimaahan harvoin on äkillinen muutos. Sinulla näyttää olevan sellainen Ellis Island mallinen maahanmuuttaja. Annat maahanmuuttajille tarkat rajat joiden puitteissa heidän on sulauduttava. Minun vaihtoehto olisi luonnollinen sulautuminen.

    Maahanmuuttajan pitää opetella vaadittavat taidot suomessa elämiseen mutta muuten hän voi elää niin kuin haluaa. Jos maahanmuuttaja haluaa pitää kiini omista arvoista, se on ihan sallittua. Heidän lapsensa useimmiten suomalaistuvat elämänsä aikana. Jos annamme ajan tehdä työsä, maahanmuuttajat ovat suomalaistuneet ja samalla suomi on saannut jotakin uutta omaan kulttuuriinsa. Tietty muistutan, että maahanmuuttajien on toimittava maan lakien mukaan. En kannata naisten ympärileiskaussia tai jihadistista vihapuhetta.

    Miksi maahanmuuttajat muuttavat. Maahanmuuton yleisin syy on työ. Jos työtä ei löydy kotimaassa, ihminen menee naapuri maihin. Etelä-Afrikka on afrikan suurimpia maahanmuuttajien vastaan ottaja ja useimmat muuttajista ovat kaivos työntekijöitä. Maahanmuutto on tarvittava asia sellaisissa maissa joissa tuotanto kustanukset ovat liian korkea. Etenkin laitonmaahanmuutto. Laittomat eivät vaadi mitään korvauksia ja he suostuvat tekemään töitä missä vain ja millä hinnalla tahansa. En tietenkään väitä että maahanmuutto on ainoa vaihtoehto mutta se on yksi vaihtoehto. Jos olet sosiallisti, silloin maahanmuuto on huono asia. Maahanmuutto voi helposti viedä paikallisten työtä. Jos olet kapitalisti, silloin maahanmuutto on hieno asia. Tällä halpatyövoimalla jopa Eurooppakin voi kilpailla Aasiaa vastaan.

    Pakolaisuus tai ihmissuhteet ovat harvemmin maahanmuuton syy. Euroopan sisällä maahanmuuton vaikuttajat ovat halpatyövoima entisestä Varsovan liiton maista ja ekperttit Länsi-Euroopasta. Tämä on karkea jako, joten ottakaa se varauksella. Opiskelu on yksi tärkeä syy muuttaa muualle.

    Siinä joitakin yleisimpiä syitä.

  70. Andy

    Sasu

    no joo. Ei tossa ollut kyse mistään maahanmuutto-poliitikoista, eikä yhteiskunnnallisista asioista. Simppelit ohjeet mun näkökulmasta. heitä omas kiitos tai muuta mun.

    Ootko itte ollut maahanmuuttajana?

    • Migrant Tales

      I think it is very important to empower people and to inspire them to take part in our society. One of the biggest threats to our society is apathy.

  71. Sasu

    Andy, Minähän vastasin sinun kysymykseen vain. Minusta tollaisesta melkeinpä itsestään selvät ohje luettelot ovat aika turhia. Kyllä ihmiset tietävät miten pitää käyttäytyä.
    Ehkä odotan ihmisistä liikaa.

  72. Rocker

    The Danish drug-war between bikers and muslims started already 3-4 years ago.

    The manifest above is an edited version of the thruth, a filtered copy targeted to public receiving wide attention in the media in Denmark.

    The manifest says that the muslims have basically redifined the word ‘bullying’ when they use violence. The manifest discusses the police failing to secure the Danish citizens. It is of course true, but it is also true that the police has failed on itself. Many officers saying that they hesitate to intervene when there are sufficients nr of ‘Jackals’ as Hells Angels label muslims in the manifest. There is this ”lynkkaus”-mentality by muslims to gather up when member of muslim-gang has caused on accident and they instantly call for help by other muslims to convince the innocent driver to take them blame by using force, violence and weapen. Police say that muslims are often on the accident scene ten times faster than the police. The police turn their backs when Jackals threaten the police-officer’s by saying they will cause harm to their families as they know the addresses of some officers.

    Hells Angels work differently than muslim-gangs. The police don’t go to the bikers without heavy evidence. It’s hard to get the guilty in a biker club, many times even impossible. When you get a guilty, it’s often not the real offender as they protect themselves in a different way. Hells Angels seems to be harder to catch than other mc-clubs, when it comes to getting people into prison. Hells Angels and other bikers seldom attack innocent individuals. The strive for money and usually direct their violence on people in drug-business, unpaid debt collecting, weaponry etc. Not sure, but I think Hells Angels are outside of prostitution. Muslims on the other hand have a wide range of innocent people they beat, rape or use other form of violence threath. Have you ever heard an Angel raping? May be, but it is very rare. Once they tried but the police/press received so bad publicity when the Angel was found not guilty.

    When you read ”crime-investigating literature” you find out some interesting things about bikers and how they operate.

    In 2010 there was a coordinated 1000+ police-officer raids (täsmäisku) in several Danish cities on muslims-gangs.

    Big question: WHY DO SOME POLITICIANS LISTEN TO OR PRAISE THE WORST OF THE WORST, THE HELLS-ANGELS?

    -sure, the muslim-gangs are by some definitions worse than the Hells-Angels and are growing rapidly every year. That’s why.

    But as in the manifest, when alone the Jackal is fairly innocent. He is even a complainer of human rights not to be expelled when having the shotgun in the breats-pocket.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Rocker and welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales.

      –Big question: WHY DO SOME POLITICIANS LISTEN TO OR PRAISE THE WORST OF THE WORST, THE HELLS-ANGELS?

      A good question indeed. The answer is pretty obvious.

      We have been following Denmark on and off pretty regularly on Migrant Tales. In my opinion it is one example we should not follow. Sensible Danes are figuring out that now as well as the election showed.

      What is interesting about Denmark is how a far-right party like the DPP can hijack the political situation of a county for 10 years and get support. The harm that such an anti-immigration policy has created in Denmark has hurt the country in the way of foreign investment. Why would you invest in a country that has such a xenophobic immigration policy? Why would skilled workers want to move there? Some would, of course, but there are more inviting countries in Europe than Denmark.

      The same thing is happening with the PS. By spreading their nationalist and xenophobic baloney, they are impoverishing this country in many ways. Why would a Russian company or entrepreneurs relocate in Finland if some PS members are openly hostile to Russians?

      There’s also the question of Finnish companies investing in the Middle East. I wonder what they say about the PS, which is openly anti-Muslim? Not good for business I’d say.

  73. justicedemon

    Andy

    Yhtäkkiä osaat suomea ja jopa kohtalaisen selvästi.

    Sasu

    Kiitos selkeästä ja tarkkanäköisestä esityksestä. En puhuisi niin yksioikoisesti maahanmuuton “syistä” mainitsematta se tärkeä seikka, että yksittäistapauksen taustalla vaikuttaa miltei poikkeuksetta useita toisiinsa liittyneitä maahantulon sekä pikemminkin maahanjäämisen perusteita. Käytännössä maahanmuuttajat on tilastoitu ulkomaalaislain kategorioihin viittaavasti, mutta näiden tilastojen käytännön hyöty lupajärjestelmän ulkopuolella on aivan vähäistä.

  74. Sasu

    Justicedemon, Olet tietty oikeaksa. Itse katsoisin jäämisen liittyvän pitkälti siihen miten olet tullut. Jos olet perheetön, jäämismahdollisuudet ja uuden perheen muodostamis mahdollisuus on suuri. Perheelliset harvemmin jäävät vakituisesti muuttomaahan koska heillä on oma perhe ruokittavana. Etenkin Afrikkalaisilla maahanmuuttajilla usein on perhe kotimaassa. Monimutkaisuuden takia karkeat ylestykset ovat useimmiten harhaan johtavia.

  75. Andy

    Migrant Tales

    Those were my subjective views on immigration, from an immigrant point of view not government

    1. I was grateful for the opportunity given when I was an immigrant. I think people running for life should be grateful if they find a sanctuary. Generally one should be grateful, if you spend your life complaing your night is gonno be long
    2. Obvious if you want to survive (national level this should be an obligation)
    3. obvious
    4. obvious ( Finland could get down unemployment to 5%)
    5. hobbies are essential, also intellectually
    9.That’s your equality, I suppose intergation’s purpose is not to start defining/redefining equality. That you can do when you have learnt the ropes

  76. Andy

    Sasu

    Besides that you failed to answer some questions, your long text contains WRONG conclusions, FAILED generalisations and FALSE facts/information.

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, I think Sasu makes some very valid points. Why do you suggest that his conclusions are “wrong?” Why would he spread false information if he is telling you about his reality? Or are you doing what his questions asked: Do you even have any idea because you are white?

  77. Rocker

    When looking at OECD statistics of 2004/2005 there is unemployment rate for native born Danes 5 % and foreigners around 13 %, the non-OECD immigrants lifting up the unemployment figures significantly. Similarly correlating rates are found in Finland in 2004-2005 according ministry of labour. The only difference is that the Finnish statistics are twice as high 25-27% unemployed people of foreign origin and totally 8,8%. Active job market policy like Denmark has is one of the most efficient in Europe. Finland should import it or very fast or come up with something better before Sauli gets more wrinkles. Finland can’t simply afford to fail as drastically as it has done for many years already when it comes (un)employment. Some Finnish politicians claim that ”we can’t leave the ticking government debts to our children.” True, most people would probably agree. This scenario won’t happen, the debts will fall on our own laps already with the current trend.

    PS is not comparable with the Danish election outcome for DPP 2011. PS got 19% of total votes in 2011 elections with an increase of 15 % since 2007. The left parties in Denmark, Venstre 27 % and Socialdemocrats 25% were and are still significantly bigger than DPP that got 12 % of the total votes in 2011. Nearly identical figures can be found for the top 3 parties in 2007 elections, DPP 14 %. In 2005 the DPP got 13 % in 2001 12 % for DPP. So four elections with an average of 13%. Why do DPP with 12-14 % of the seats do so much harm as it is stated? Why do PS that didn’t enter the government do so much harm as people make it sound? If they do they are certainly not alone. If xenophobia is a term used for anti-immigration groups then many parties are xenophobes. A party may be so called immigration friendly by its name but when you start making anti-immigration statements and measures you should as a correctly stated on this page be included in the same group of xenophobics.

    My teacher taught me at university ”money talks, bullshit walks.” Money makers go where the grass is greener. Sometimes it becomes an addiction because the money is so good in the green spot. It’s the same euro-sign muslim gangs have when engaging in drug business. To the middle east foreign companies go to build up the countries many times the infrastructure that the locals are not capable of doing. Finns in the middle east are generally at the top of the ladder. They tend to have own drivers, house-maids and other servants of other origins mainly china and filippines. One vagabond who had a long history of working in the middle-east, said that sheiks interfere too much over foreigners. A child dove (apparently they do so to foreigners) under his car that he didn’t even drive in Egypt, following similar mentality as in Denmark by muslims. He wanted to leave the country on that very spot but he couldn’t, the ministry of interior had to investigate the incident and give green light for his departure. After that embarrassing incident he left those businesses and never returned.

    Foreign investment in Europe is of different character. It’s a lot about getting good labour to a good price where the money is invested. In 2010 Luxembourg was nr 1 followed by UK and Ireland, Ireland primarily due to its low corporate tax but they also joined the ”help package-club.” Germany and France also significant nr of foreign investment, followed by Spain, Italy and Cyprus. Notable, 11 of 27 EU-countries within range 1,0 and negative (more domestic investment) -1,0. Additional negatives Belgium -2,4 The Netherlands -5,3 Sweden -5,5. (eurostat)

  78. Andy

    Certainly the reasons are complex why Malmö has a ghetto and why Rinkeby School is a shining example of how things can be done properly. I visited the school in January and got an understanding how it works. One important factor is community involvement and empowering students. By the tone of your arguments and your ten-point list, there’s not too much if any empowering or community involvement.”

    That is my subjective way of understanding things, that by no means are the only solution. Just suggestion and advice for the immigrant, that was what the question was about but Sasu managed to turn it the other way around.

    Rinkeby is perhaps the best example or the worst depending how you see it. I set my feet there on a few occasions.There was also a woman in RInkeby who was subsidized by the Swedish government to run her pre-school business. She sent 18,5 miljon kronors to Dubai and Somalia and left salaries unpaid. 3 years and 6 months in prison and no similar day care for 8 years.The Swedish ”integrationsminister Erik Ullenhag” will be seated in Rinkeby this week as apparently he knows as little as you and I what happens there.

    ”Another matter that you must remember is that societies are made up of humans and, as you know, humans are not perfect.” Suggestions for the better are always welcome but they should be equal for everybody.

    ”Another matter why I have serious doubts about your approach is that it is very expensive to the tax payer. You want people to integrate to society but on your terms, which would amount to failure. In your world, you can sit on your behind as the world adapts to you, right?” The world is a change, it changes all the time. But I don’t see any reason why the system should be changed in Finland. Improvements are and should be in the dynamics of a healthy society. My own experience, those who want to integrate, regardless if you come from Egypt or Italy do so.

    –What measures should be taken to avoid similar in Finland? Solutions.

    I told you many times that integration is a two-way process. Two-way acceptance, respect and equal opportunities to begin with. That’s will take you on the right path. Moreover I would debate your conclusions. Is Sweden a failure? England? Germany? Why not ask the question in the following manner: What could be done better?

    ”What could be done better?”= solutions 🙂

    Change in the attitude. Sasu says that there is no reason for immigrants to feel gratitude. I think Sasu has problems with the word gratitude and perhaps related to immigrants. We could see it from another angle. If Sasu isn’t happy to have roof above his head (I suppose he has) and regular meals I suggest that Sasu gives his home to homeless people and the food to the people begging in Hakaniemi.

    When you have asylum seekers by application fleeing death, do you think they should be grateful? I think if they value life they should be so and pay extra attention to the law, as they state they will be killed if they are deported.

    What about you Enrique, do you feel grateful for the opportunity Finland has given? If you would have to choose to which country would you give your current gratitude? Evident that you would have to live in that country as nobody wants to live where he/she is not happy. If there is a free option to move of course.

    Open communication and away with the current disgraceful stuff. Nr 2, sorry nr 1. Robben 1-0

    • Migrant Tales

      –Change in the attitude. Sasu says that there is no reason for immigrants to feel gratitude.

      I disagree. He’s a bright young man who knows his stuff. What kind of gratitude do you want? Is it silence? Or is it the gratitude given to a master?

  79. Andy

    The original question:

    ”Andy, could you tell us how an immigrant is supposed to integrate into Finnish society. Possibly you have advice for Muslims, Somalis, Spaniards and other groups. Could you tell us your “top ten” advice for immigrants so they could integrate effectively into our society.”

    To simplify the apparently too challenging questions I narrowed it down to YES NO-options.

    Do I get the impression that the trivial English is too advanced for S? YES

    Is this right? ”Ymmärtäisin sen jos kaikki maahanmuuttajat olisivat pakolaisia, mutta näin ei ole.” YKSIKÄÄN MAAHANMUUTTAJA EI OLE PAKOLAINEN SUOMEEN TULLESSAAN. NO

    Did S consistently stay in the topic (above) from the very beginning and directed his criticism on it? NOPE

    Did S provide a solution when requested? ”Tämä hienon ohjenuoran pahin ongelma on jo numero ykkösessä.” NONE WHATSOEVER after a few requests.

    Is this statement true and the only thruth for both people giving the advice and people supposingly following them?”Muuten ehdotukset ovat aika hyviä vaikkakin itsettäänselvyyksiä.” NO, NEVER EVER itsestäänselviä. Why would this discussion take place then?

    ”Maahanmuuttajien sopeutuminen uuteen kotimaahan harvoin on äkillinen muutos”, did S provide an argument over this? NEGATIVE

    Did S provide own experiences from his immi-emmigrations as he was requested to do? NO

    Presumably S hasn’t been an immigrant but possesses still loads of subjective information, controversial? POSITIVE

    ”Miksi maahanmuuttajat muuttavat. Maahanmuuton yleisin syy on työ.” Is this true for Finland? NOPE (Ministry of foreign affairs 2009) Perhaps he meant Spain or Portugal, nobody knows.

    Etelä-Afrikka on afrikan suurimpia maahanmuuttajien vastaan ottaja ja useimmat muuttajista ovat kaivos työntekijöitä.””Maahanmuutto on tarvittava asia sellaisissa maissa joissa tuotanto kustanukset ovat liian korkea(t).” ”Etenkin laitonmaahanmuutto. Laittomat eivät vaadi mitään korvauksia ja he suostuvat tekemään töitä missä vain ja millä hinnalla tahansa. En tietenkään väitä että maahanmuutto on ainoa vaihtoehto mutta se on yksi vaihtoehto.”

    ”Maahanmuutto on tarvittava asia sellaisissa maissa joissa tuotanto kustanukset ovat liian korkea(t).” True or not? NOPE, ever heard of Kiina ilmiö or generally moving production east. What happens to the Finnish electronic industry? Do you need immigration to replace jobs that don’t exist? NO (however we don’t know if S means Sweden, Luxembourg, Norway or Denmark. Perhaps most of Europe.

    ”Laittomat eivät vaadi mitään korvauksia ja he suostuvat tekemään töitä missä vain ja millä hinnalla tahansa.” Does this ”eivät vaadi mitään korvauksia”, ”millä hinnalla tahansa” make any sense? NOPE and if S is talking about Finland it is a false generalization. They do demand sometimes even more than legal workers since there are no social fees and tactical workers know this.

    ”Pakolaisuus tai ihmissuhteet ovat harvemmin maahanmuuton syy.” NOPE (Ministry of foreign affairs 2009)

    ”Opiskelu on yksi tärkeä syy muuttaa muualle.” YES, it is true. Easier to move to Helsinki from Kauniainen if you take up an under-graduate education at the University of Helsinki, you can sleep longer in the morning especially if you manage to get a studio near the school. Nobody knows what S meant. Or did he mean the Erasmus-students taking up exchange stuff for a semester in another country?

    ”I have a question for you: If you did not permit certain people from getting social benefits because they can’t get a job (language, professional skills etc), don’t you think that contradiction would hinder our sense of fairness as a society? To use the Hommaforum term, “that would be apartheid!” NO, same rules for everybody, if mentally and physically disable people can get a job, most of immigrants can too. Education is free and offers certainly many options that could and should be attractive. There is also the job-creation option where actually nearly no language proficiency might be needed. So to say, the system is equal but should be helping individuals that need more support. Perhaps you could see what happens in other countries where unemployment rates are low.

    Sure, one could say so. To use Apartheid as an argument is valid but usually fraudulent also for yourself. There is apartheid (according some individuals) on Finnish citizens, African citizens, Turkish citizens, Same people, Swedish speaking people in Finland for many different reasons. Usually one day one argument the next day a new one. It’s more an agenda than a valid argument.

    ”Instead of blaming immigrants, why not point the finger a politicians and policy makers?” Sure people vote in the politicians they want and should somehow live with their vote. But it doesn’t mean that ordinary innocent people who get in the range of 10-30 times more committed violence by some nationals should stay silent and ignore what actually happens to their sister or her friends when they are raped, beaten or threatened to death. Nor when it’s directed on males on the other hand males respond more often by violence and then you have what you have now. You only wake up when these three deaths took place but forgot that there may be dozens, hundreds, perhaps 1000 of young girls who have been raped over the years with long or lifetime severe traumas committed by the huge overrepresentation of foreigners living in Finland.

    And this, is this a joke a frog or something else? ”Vaikka saavuttaisit tämän(ten steps), se ei takaa mitään, mutta antaa etumatkaa muihin maahanmuuttajiin.” To who? Is this a competion?

    Gratitude, something you have to find on your own, it’s not a philosophical question. Since you Enrique failed to answer the question and focus on other stuff I take that your gratitude lies somewhere else than in Finland. Sasu, perhaps from Sisu showed no empathy for homeless people so we know pretty well where he stands.

    You sitll have not provided solutions for the improved 10-step version.

  80. Rocker

    Migrant Tales

    I wanted to comment on the fishy story about assault-rapes from Oslo. 🙂 I had to watch the video a few times before I understood and had it confirmed. The press-conference held was to inform over the tragic rape-epidemic, I don’t see any reason why the details would be incorrect. Secondly, the chief of the Norwegian police requested no stigmatization. Rather more preventive work.

    It meant on average 17 assault-rapes per year committed by non-western men as the police-woman expressed herself. Since only a small part of rapes are reported, the actual figure is estimated between 150-200 assault-rapes every year committed by non-western men. Following these horrific acts there a few victims who committed suicide, some other with serious mental problems. This is already very comparable with Breivik’s acts. Breivik should be judged as well as all those violent rapers. Assault-rape is equivalent to attempt to murder in Finland.

    Regarding investment. I think companies are looking for good labour to a good price, taxation minimizing and easy bureaucracy. Denmark is 9th of all 27 member states in EU when it comes to investment. Open countries for immigration like Sweden, Belgium and the Netherlands (at 2010) have the lowest figures of all countries when it comes to attract foreign investment.

    Glancing your discussion, what do you think should be done to get immigrants better integrated in Finland?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Make and welcome to Migrant Tales. You are right to a certain extend. However, we have to write about things that are sometimes not that pleasant.

  81. Rocker

    Sasu

    are these jokes, frogs or similar?

    True, false? ”Suurin osa maahanmuuttajista ovat Eurooppalaisia ja työnperäisiä muuttajia.” Migrant Tale

    True or not? ”On tietenkin joitakin niitä jotka tulevat ihmissuhteen kautta.” tale again family-ties were nr 1 of the reason 2009. (http://www.intermin.fi/intermin/home.nsf/pages/299A4E13F9021266C225770D00284DD7)

    ”Minun vaihtoehto olisi luonnollinen sulautuminen.” This is what immigranst have been offered/have had in Europe. It utterly failed in Germany, failed also in The Netherlands, UK, Sweden, France…

    Totta vai tarua? ”Jos annamme ajan tehdä työsä, maahanmuuttajat ovat suomalaistuneet ja samalla suomi on saannut jotakin uutta omaan kulttuuriinsa.” A real Migrant Tale. There are people in Germany and in the Netherlands who after 20 and respectively 30 years don’t speak helpfully(some say none) the national language. AAh, yes. I read about a guy who was 20 years in the UK without feeling the need to learn English. Then surprisingley one day he started to study, with a good tempo.

    True? ”Jos olet kapitalisti, silloin maahanmuutto on hieno asia.” Is it fiinimpää if you get your products for 1/5 or 1/10 done in India or China of the price immigrants would offer in Finland? Kyllä Nokiakin lähtee niin että pölisee vaikka koko Romania tulisi Suomeen. Sitä paitsi Nokia meni Romaniaan kun Saksasta tuli liian kallis.

    ”Euroopan sisällä maahanmuuton vaikuttajat ovat halpatyövoima entisestä Varsovan liiton maista ja ekperttit Länsi-Euroopasta.” Probably true, but does this statement have any relevance without knowing either who and how many goes from where and to where? There are differences between the east-bloc countries as well as the western countries. Finland and Sweden in many ways similar but when you look at the immigration there is not much in common.

    Feel free to comment Migrant Tales and Sasu

  82. makeadifference

    Sasu Migrant Tales

    The Folktinget (parliament) in Denmark says that if immigrants don’t show gratitude towards the Danish society and by committing crimes they have nothing to do in Denmark. 97 (95) votes in the parliament voting in favour of deportation and 7 against. Percentage is 93% regardless if you count with 97 or 95, since there were two sources saying differently.

    By crime they mean getting sent to prison.

    How do you comment?

    http://www.nationellidag.se/visa/default.asp?dokID=1533

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