Lieksa Facebook court case begins today in Pohjois-Karjala, Finland

by , under Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

A court case involving eight suspects accused of inciting ethnic hatred in Lieksa via the Facebook page, “Mamu keskustelu ilman sensuuria (lieksa),” or “Immigrant debate without censorship (Lieksa),” began today. The deputy state prosecutor is calling for two of the accused to serve four-month prison terms, with lesser sentences and fines for the rest. 

Traffic on the Facebook site has now come to a near-halt, but racist jokes about groups like Somalis and Roma can be still found on the site’s wall.

The Facebook group is a good example of  the good name of a town and community can be ruined by a handful of people. Lieksa is a city of 12,800 inhabitants with roughly 200 immigrants.

There are many ways to shake off a bad reputation. When it comes to racism, the only way is through community action and the law. In both cases the message must be crystal clear: racism is unacceptable.

The face of racism, when it dares to show itself in public, is not only shameful but can threaten the community it claims to be defending. All the noble values that we consider dear, like social justice and equality, are destroyed in an instant.

There is much more at stake in the ongoing trial of eight defendants accused of inciting ethnic hatred than meets the eye.

What is at stake is who we are as culturally diverse Finns.

  1. Farang

    Nice work Enrique: “What is at stake is who we are as culturally diverse Finns.”

    So few racists write inappropriate stuff in internet and you generalise it to apply all Finns. In your double standards that was expected, but it’s funny how eagerly you are attacking people who do exacly same kind of generalisation about any other nationality than Finns.

    Here in Migrant Tales all groups are carefully protected, except Finns.

    • Migrant Tales

      Farang, don’t forget that I speak of SOME Finns. I have never said ALL Finns. So your claim has been debunked.

      –Here in Migrant Tales all groups are carefully protected, except Finns.

      But some of us are Finns. Another claim debunked.

  2. Farang

    Think about this:

    1) People (Finns) who WRITE racist stuff about immigrants, are being tried to put in jail

    BUT

    2) Rapists don’t go to jail

    Which one of these crimes are more serious? Can’t you see that Finnish justice system is corrupted piece of shit. Rapists walk free, killers walk free. But if you dare to speak badly about immigrants or download illegal music, then you go to jail.

    • Migrant Tales

      –1) People (Finns) who WRITE racist stuff about immigrants, are being tried to put in jail

      BUT

      2) Rapists don’t go to jail

      Farang, this is the Hommaforum-Scripta line. It is the language and mindset of Breivik; of the Danish People’s Party; Sweden Democrats; Perussuomalaiset; Geert Wilders; French National Front; BNP; Lega Nord… Should I continue. We have heard it so many, many times before that we can recognize it if we were deaf and read your lips.

      There is still hope that you can see the light one day.

  3. justicedemon

    Farang

    1) As far as I know, only Seppo Lehto* has been imprisoned for hate speech. The usual sanction is a fine.

    2) Has anyone been imprisoned in Finland merely for downloading music? I don’t think so, but maybe you are better informed.

    * Seppo Lehto has edited his own Wikipedia entry. I recommend it for a good laugh. 😀

  4. Mark

    Farang

    1) People (Finns) who WRITE racist stuff about immigrants, are being tried to put in jail

    BUT

    2) Rapists don’t go to jail

    This is only rarely the case, jail for one and no jail for the other. It is almost always the other way around. However, one thing is clear – you have chosen the wrong thing to support. You should go and support women’s rights in Finland, and stop wasting your time on anti-immigration. Then you might have a real positive impact on the life of Finns.

  5. BlandaUpp

    Farang

    1. Nobody has yet to be sent to jail for hate speech or racism as far as I know. I hope this will change because calling for lynch mobs to exterminate people with a particular religion or skin colour shouldn’t go unpunished.

    2. Convicted rapists like PS spokesperson and campaign manager Matti Putkonen, get sent to jail if their crime is particularly violent. In Putkonen’s case he also had to pay his victim 10000euro on top of the 8 month jail sentence. This is an unusually high sentence which indicates that the crime must have been particularly violent.

  6. Farang

    Mark

    “stop wasting your time on anti-immigration”

    Why do you claim that? I have clarified it many times that I am not against immigration.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Why do you claim that? I have clarified it many times that I am not against immigration.

      The question should be what type of immigration are you against. Is it a group or a region where people come from?

  7. Mark

    Farang

    Clarify it for me again – you are not against these kinds of immigration: immigration of Muslims, immigration of Africans, immigration of Arabs, immigration of asylum seekers from conflict zones, immigration of Somalis, and immigration of men.

  8. Farang

    Mark and Enrique

    I am not against any of those groups you mentioned. I just like to discuss about all the issues that are related to immigration and while there are negative issues also, it still doesn’t mean that I am against immigration.

    You just jump in to conclusions too quickly. If a somali immigrant rapes someone, then I am against THAT person, not all. But I have tried to bring up the viewpoint, why SOME of the Finns may think differently and blame ALL somalis. And seems that when I do that, you somehow assume that i think that way too.

    Why can’t you understand that I can discuss about how other people think or behave in certain situations and what are the reasons for them to do that, and still I don’t personally think or behave that way.

    And while I don’t like Enrique and others here writing stories which blame Finns, it still has nothing to do with me being anti-immigration or not. You need to remember that even if I don’t agree with you in most of the matters, it doesn’t make me anti-immigrant or racist.

    • Mark

      Farang

      I am not against any of those groups you mentioned.

      Good. Do you also acknowledge that many people arguing against immigration or being ‘skeptical’ of immigration are against the immigration of some of these groups?

      I just like to discuss about all the issues that are related to immigration and while there are negative issues also, it still doesn’t mean that I am against immigration.

      This seems perfectly reasonable to me as long as you don’t try to use attributes attached to the group as the means for deciding immigration policy or making individual immigration decisions, i.e. you are such and such a nationality – we think you commit more crime – we won’t let you in.

      If a somali immigrant rapes someone, then I am against THAT person, not all.

      I would agree. However, while not condoning the crime, the issue of how that individual is rehabilitated is also important. It seems that many in this debate fail to acknowledge any need to show humanity also to the perpetrator. Perhaps the accusation that one has forgotten or insulted the victim is rather too quick to surface. However, in terms of prevention of future crimes against women, this is a crucial point that should not be forgotten, though it often is.

      But I have tried to bring up the viewpoint, why SOME of the Finns may think differently and blame ALL somalis.

      But why would you want to do that if you disagree with it? After all, you are not usually telling us that you disagree with this blaming all Somalis, though now you have clarified it, I will try to take account of that.

      And seems that when I do that, you somehow assume that i think that way too.

      Well, it was all an misunderstanding then.

      Why can’t you understand that I can discuss about how other people think or behave in certain situations and what are the reasons for them to do that, and still I don’t personally think or behave that way.

      I can understand that. It’s called playing Devil’s Advocate. However, generally speaking, people make it very clear when they are doing that. I’m not at all sure that you have made too much effort to make it clear.

      And while I don’t like Enrique and others here writing stories which blame Finns, it still has nothing to do with me being anti-immigration or not. You need to remember that even if I don’t agree with you in most of the matters, it doesn’t make me anti-immigrant or racist.

      Agreed. At least it doesn’t make you automatically one of those. Indeed, we can only judge you on the basis of the arguments that you have provided.

      One particular argument you put forward was quite disgusting and verging on racist in my book:

      The reason why I consider you [D4R] less intelligent is because when we discuss here, your comments prove your lack of understanding clear things. Even when the things are put crystal clear in front of your eyes, you manage to find totally different outcome from them….Showing that kind of lack of intelligence makes it clear that no sane person should have any kind of discussion with him.

      and this:

      And no matter how you try to deny you being racist, you actions and comments speak against you. You have proven with your own action that you are a racist against whites.

      I replied in length to the former post, though you did not reply. D4R is not a racist. Generalisation is quite normal in speech, especially when we get angry, which I’m sure we all do from time to time here. Then we can fall into the habit of absolutes. D4R is very quick to corrent any lapses he makes. These lapses do not make him a racist. And he certainly doesn’t think that everything bad that happens to black people is racism.

      This is the typical speech of white supremacists who are desperate to change the focus of the argument. So why on earth are you doing this? You seem to have become thoroughly lost in this debate. And there’s more:

      It’s just that in your [D4R] racist mind you don’t even understand that you are doing it, because you target white people, and in your mind you think it is ok to do what ever as long as the target is white person.

      This condascending attitude you take with D4R and the intensity with which you seek to label him a racist, stupid, lacking in intelligence is disturbing, Farang. It is almost as if you notice that he is black and that he gets paranoid about racism (understandably) and that you take this to mean he’s automatically ‘one of those kinds of black racists’.

      And there have been other comments:

      As I have said many times before, those people [MT, Mark etc.] are the worst racists and they don’t even realise it themselves… Sad..

      Here, I really don’t have a clue what motivates you. You seem absolutely intent on reversing the ‘racism argument’ against those that write about or complain about racism in Finland. Time and again, you misrepresent MT’s position as being against ALL Finns, when this kind of language is never used, or if used accidentally by posters, is quickly corrected. It is simply not our intention to label all Finns as racist or Finland as a racist country. The intention is very clearly to highlight racism issues in Finland, as they disproportionately affect immigrants. Notice that last part?

      Colorblind racism is just an invented term by those who wants to hide their own racism.

      Really. You mean blacks? Actually, colourblind racism is very real and easily demonstrated. We all have prejudices. Some we are comfortable with, like thinking politicians are all liars, and no-one is really going to challenge us. Other prejudices are more damaging, and we have been challenged, as indivduals, to look at our prejudice and unpick those assumptions that underlie it. This is work. It’s not easy. A lot of people cannot be bothered. So, the alternative is simply to say that I will never mention colour or ‘see’ colour, and that’s the problem taken care of. But when you refuse to see ‘colour’, the effect is refusing to see racism. In fact, the very next step is to say that anyone who STILL sees colour must be the racists. That’s the lovely logic and stupidity of colourblind racism. How extraordinary that you don’t believe it exists and that those that believe in it are the racists!

      And right on cue, here is another of your posts demonstrating the exact same logic:

      Toni has point there. Enrique & co are just racists who try to make their case based on peoples skin colour and ethnic background.

      For non-racists like me it doesn’t matter what race/background the criminal or victim has. The crime is always to be condemned.

      The case is not highlighted because of the victim’s colour, it is highlighted because the victim’s colour appears to have been or is strongly suspected to be a basis for the crime. This is a crucial point which you seem to want to ignore entirely, feeling safe that ANY mention of colour reveals racism. You call us racists while blinding yourself to racism, but you do not get rid of your own racism that way. No way, sir! The fact you are even in this debate at all speaks volumes about what motivates you. The fact you seek to constantly reverse the racism argument, with NO awareness of how that reversal fits into the historical battle for human rights and an end to racism, condemns you. At best you are ignorant, but at worst, you are a racist who is simply trying to push your critics onto the back foot.

      And then, when MT first reported on the attack of the older Somali lady, and false rumours started on Homma that the assailant was in fact an immigrant, you very quickly replied with this:

      Enrique, I think you fell into your own shit now 😀 Still waiting for verification, but seems that the person who assaulted that woman was an immigrant. And yet you already blamed Finns 🙂 You are a disgrace to everyone.

      How wrong you were. Enrique did not blame anyone, but you did. You couldn’t wait to get the knives out.

      Yep, you are here on one single campaign, it seems to me. To convince people that MT and anyone who talks about racism in Finland are the real racists. That is so obviously the absolute epitome of colourblind racism, that I’m inclined to think that you are very obviously a racist. Otherwise, your priorities would be totally different, and the good folks here would be your friends and allies and not your obvious enemies.

  9. Farang

    And as I mentioned earlier, I am very angry at Finnish immigration policy for not letting in immigrants who would come to work here because their salary is not “high enough”.

  10. justicedemon

    Farang

    I am very angry at Finnish immigration policy for not letting in immigrants who would come to work here because their salary is not “high enough”.

    I explained the rationale behind this policy a few days ago.

    You didn’t object, or explain how these things could be arranged in any other way.

  11. Farang

    Mark, if I have problems with some person because of reasons which have nothign to do with ethnic backgroud or skin colour, why would you call me racist?

    If I don’t like what some somali says, it doesn’t mean that I don’t like it because he’s somali, but because of what he says. That has nothing to do with racism.

  12. Farang

    The atmosphere for example in public services have become disturbing lately. For example in health care the personnel won’t deny any services from immigrants even if they are not entitled to them, because they need to fear the racism accusations. It is very common* that in case some* immigrants uses the racism card when something doesn’t go their way, and staff is afraid of losing their jobs so some* abuse that situation to get what their want.

    That is a phenomenon we need to stop. Because at the end this creates hostility against immigrants, because when immigrants gets something that Finns don’t it pisses of Finns and it will then turn against immigrants as more hostile attitudes.

    * did you notice that I’ve learnt something: I didn’t use words “always” and “all” 🙂

  13. Mark

    Farang

    Mark, I just don’t like Finns being accused of racism without any basis.

    Get off your high horse, Farang, no-one is accusing ‘Finns’ without any basis. Your defence of the indefensible makes you look look a racist.

    Mark, if I have problems with some person because of reasons which have nothign to do with ethnic backgroud or skin colour, why would you call me racist?

    The way you phrased that entire argument with D4R was very reminiscent of arguments saying blacks have lower IQ. If you are not aware of that racist argument, then more the fool you. If you don’t care that your descriptions of him fitted that kind of racist argument, then more the fool you. How blind to the circumstances of social reality do you want to make yourself?

    If I don’t like what some somali says, it doesn’t mean that I don’t like it because he’s somali, but because of what he says. That has nothing to do with racism.

    If you are at the same time drawing attention to his nationality, then yes, there is every likelihood that it could be racist. I very much doubt you would admit to racism.

    The atmosphere for example in public services have become disturbing lately. For example in health care the personnel won’t deny any services from immigrants even if they are not entitled to them, because they need to fear the racism accusations.

    Sounds interesting. Now what is this based on? How many factual reports? What was received by the immigrants? Sounds to me like you are once again making mischief against immigrants. I really think you are a racist! Almost everything points in that direction and almost nothing points in any other direction.

  14. Farang

    Mark

    “The way you phrased that entire argument with D4R was very reminiscent of arguments saying blacks have lower IQ.”

    WTF??? I even explained the reasons why I came to that conclusion of D4R and there was NOTHING that would have anything to do with skin colour. And the fact that you can interpret that as “blacks have lower IQ” just proves that YOU have a VERY low IQ. What an idiot! I’m still trying to figure out how anyone could make such conclusions like yoy…

  15. Farang

    Mark

    “Sounds interesting. Now what is this based on? How many factual reports? What was received by the immigrants? Sounds to me like you are once again making mischief against immigrants. I really think you are a racist! Almost everything points in that direction and almost nothing points in any other direction.”

    There have been reported to me straight by the people who work in public service.

    By reading your comments, I no longer wonder why there are so much invented racism in the world. People like you twist everything to racism and then you happily live in your fantasy world where there exists nothing but racism…

    But interesting viewpoint anyway, reminds me that I can’t take for granted that if person can use a computer and write in internet, it would mean he is intelligent.

  16. Toni

    Gradu aiheesta:
    “Lisäksi maahanmuuttajien vastustaminen ja rasismi ovat aiheina hyvin tulenarkoja ja
    Internet tarjosi hyvän tavan lähestyä aihetta. Olen kiinnittänyt huomiota siihen, että
    Suomessa usein vaietaan, kun pitäisi keskustella ongelmista, jotka liittyvät etnisiin
    suhteisiin ja rasismiin. Kun suomalainen metelöi tai sotkee pesutupaa, on asiasta helppo
    huomauttaa. Tilanne kuitenkin muuttuu, kun kyseessä on maahanmuuttaja. Silloin on
    helppo leimautua rasistiksi ja usein ollaan vain hiljaa ja kirotaan mielessä. Tänä päivänä ei enää ole sosiaalisesti hyväksyttyä olla rasisti tai ennakkoluuloinen (Augoustinos & Walker 1995, 232). Tämä tuli esille myös keskustelussa.”
    https://jyx.jyu.fi/dspace/bitstream/handle/123456789/19737/URN_NBN_fi_jyu-200903161137.pdf?sequence=1

    Eli ihan yleisesti on tiedossa, ettei uskalleta…

    “Rasistiksi leimaamisen pelossa kriittiset äänet tinkivät jäämään sanomatta julki. Ja se, jos mikä lisää rasistisia asenteita, niin kuin viime vuosina on käynyt.”
    -Seppo Korhonen
    http://www.seponsanomaa.net/?p=6918

    “Kukaan vaan ei uskalla tuoda asioita esille rasistiksi leimaamisen pelossa.”
    -Keskustalainen Sanna:
    http://sannapanula.blogspot.com/2009/11/maahanmuuttajista.html

  17. Mark

    Farang

    WTF??? I even explained the reasons why I came to that conclusion of D4R and there was NOTHING that would have anything to do with skin colour. And the fact that you can interpret that as “blacks have lower IQ” just proves that YOU have a VERY low IQ. What an idiot! I’m still trying to figure out how anyone could make such conclusions like yoy…

    Reasons? I already demolished those reasons in the other thread. It was a pathetic attemtp to smear D4R and the entire reasoning was built on using absolutes. Remove the absolutes and the argument fell apart. Who uses ‘absolutes’ as a basis for arguments except 4-year-old’s?

    My IQ has been verified as being 146 (university), though I have often scored much higher on the Eyesenck tests, for example. Not that IQ is an indicator of very much except the ability to learn how to perform on IQ tests. So much for your proof.

    Why would I come to those conclusions, when you specifically and repeatedly talk about somebody having ‘less intelligence’ or ‘lacking intelligence’, merely because they didn’t agree with your arguments. Also, your failure to realise the social context of your repeated references to his ‘low IQ’ is just totally unconvincing. But I guess people can really be that ignorant.

    There have been reported to me straight by the people who work in public service.

    More the fool them. Okay, how many people? One person? And you then present this as a ‘growing trend in Finland’? And how many times had that same person been accused of racism? How many people have lost their jobs in the public services because of racism? My guess is that you are dressing up gossip to appear as something more. I.e. mischief-making in regard to immigrants because you are a racist and you have nothing better to do than hate on immigrants.

    By reading your comments, I no longer wonder why there are so much invented racism in the world.

    Talk about a back-to-front argument – have you got your head on the right way? Read my post above, I quote you at length and your basic strategy and beliefs in regard to Migrant Tales. You ALREADY made your mind up that all that’s written about here means that we are racist. You show no capacity or willingness to understand what colourblind racism is, even though it’s a well-established concept.

    On the contrary, you practice colourblind racism and then use its twisted logic as some kind of proof that other people who bring colour into the discussion are the real racists while you are very busy and very intent on slagging off people who ‘just happen’ to be exclusively people of colour, and then say ‘You mentioned colour, you must be a racist’. You are a fool for thinking that that kind of argument carries any weight at all, Farang and you have been exposed on this blog time and again with your groundless and unrealistic arguments and your consistent denigration of particular ethnic and national groups. You’ve even had comments deleted because they were considered illegal in that respect.

  18. Farang

    Mark

    “More the fool them. Okay, how many people? One person? And you then present this as a ‘growing trend in Finland’?”

    Well actually 3 persons. But that is quite high figure considering that I have discussed these issues thoroughly with 4 persons, so it makes 75 %. Of course the population is way too low to draw any conclusions, but it still shows the problem exists. These cases are just those that I PERSONALLY know of.

  19. Mark

    Farang

    You go from 3 examples, to talking about it being “very common”, to being ‘health care personnel not denying any services to immigrants”, to the “atmosphere for example in public services have become disturbing lately”.

    So, from 3 examples to a conclusion that you have applied to the entire public services!

    Words fail me, Farang. You are a racist mischief-maker!

    Anyhow, more questions, please. Was this conversation with 3 people all done at the same time? Were you out drinking? Were you in a Suomen Sisu meeting? Context tells us a lot, Farang. What can you tell us about these people – what is their attitude towards immigrants and immigration in general?

    And what services were the immigrants in question not entitled to that they have got? You say the staff is afraid of losing their jobs and this is why they are being overly compliant or even giving inappropriate service to clients. So who has been sacked for racism? Is this fear based on anything at all? As someone working in the health field, this sounds false. But I’m open to seeing some evidence.

    How do you know that immigrants ‘abuse the situation to get what they want’? What have they done and how do you know that what they’ve done was motivated by them feeling they have power with this threat?

    Sounds like a lot of racist self-justification for bashing immigrants and assigned negative motivations to them, if you ask me. Show me something more, Farang.

    You reach this huge and provocative conclusion in regard to immigrants abusing public services and so far you have only offered a conversation with 3 people as any kind of evidence. How do I know that you are not simply hanging out with your racist chums?

  20. Mark

    Farang

    Of course the population is way too low to draw any conclusions, but it still shows the problem exists.

    Talking about a ‘population’ (in reference to 4 people) doesn’t turn your gossip into some kind of legitimate social study, Farang. And it shows very little indeed without a great deal more background information on the cases in question.

    The speed with which you seem to believe this conclusion of yours, apparently without any further evidence or details shows how gullible you are to having your racist beliefs confirmed.

    Or do you wish to give us more details so that we can properly make our own minds up?

  21. Farang

    Mark

    “So who has been sacked for racism?”

    Nobody. You seem to miss the point. The political correctness madness have caused that people ARE AFRAID of being accused of racism and that’s why the behave differently communicating with immigrants.

    My examples were from health care. Immigrants have been demanding transfer to private sector because of the queues in public service and those have been approved and paid for.

    • Migrant Tales

      Farang, after the Civil Rights Movement ended in the US a new era began. More people than before were ashamed to be racists. We must do the same thing in Finland.

  22. Mark

    Mark

    “So who has been sacked for racism?”

    Nobody. You seem to miss the point.

    Exactly!!!! You offered this example:

    It is very common* that in case some* immigrants uses the racism card when something doesn’t go their way, and staff is afraid of losing their jobs so some* abuse that situation to get what their want.

    You say some staff are afraid of losing their jobs and yet you don’t know of anyone who has actually lost their job. That hardly counts as a reason, does it? Especially a reason to significanlty affect their behaviour or the treatment of the client. In fact, I’d say that that altered treatment almost counts as unprofessionalism. It is the job of public health workers to not give DIFFERENT treatment based on ethnicity or nationality, and not merely to give more or less treatment. Giving MORE is equally discriminating. Especially if this in some way reinforces the idea that immigrants are somehow ‘getting something for nothing’.

    The political correctness madness have caused that people ARE AFRAID of being accused of racism and that’s why the behave differently communicating with immigrants.

    Political correctness is not a gun to your head. Especially if you are a health professional, you should know the bounds of your obligations to clients and also the standard practices that should be implemented.

    Now you mentioned it is ‘communicating’ with immigrants. You still haven’t offered any shred of detail to say what exactly it is that these immigrants received that was different?

    In other words, you have offered a conclusion that you generalised to the entire public services and yet you have still not produced a single shred of detail as to what the different treatment has been or the reasons why you think immigrants have manipulated this situation to their advantage.

    In other words, from where I stand, you appear to take very scant information and extrapolate it to an extreme extent and use that to justify what appear to be very negative views of immigrants and their effect on Finnish society. That is enough in my book to classify you as a rabid racist. Who else would go to such lengths?

  23. justicedemon

    Mark

    Giving MORE is equally discriminating.

    Of course it is. The key phrase in the definition of all forms of discrimination is distinction, exclusion or preference. The type of discrimination then depends on the basis for that distinction, exclusion or preference.

    Even the discretionary decisions of public servants are bound by the principle of equity, which is one of the four (arguably 3) general principles of public administration: “equity”, “objectivity”, “proportionality” and “conformity to purpose”. Some experts add “reasonableness” to this list. The principle of equity in public service specifically prohibits preferential treatment.

    “Politically correct” is simply another way to express the idea of “well mannered”. It’s the reason why we refer to someone as an “elderly plump lady” and not a “fat old woman”, and why we say “senior citizen” and “the mature demographic”.

    I am often strongly tempted to switch to a non-politically correct register when hearing sneering comments about “political correctness gone mad”. Something like “Yes, I don’t think fat bigots with halitosis should have to deal with roundabout euphemisms describing them as big and plain-speaking with a certain aura” – or whatever is an appropriately fitting description of the speaker.

    Job title inflation is a different topic, of course.

  24. justicedemon

    Farang

    My examples were from health care. Immigrants have been demanding transfer to private sector because of the queues in public service and those have been approved and paid for.

    As is their right, and it’s also your right:

    hoitotakuulaki

    Check out subsection 3 of section 15 b.

    Or are we to understand that your idea of integration requires immigrants to be just as ignorant as you are about the right to health care services?

  25. justicedemon

    Farang

    Justicedemon, that doesn’t apply if there is no acute need for treatment.

    Well there is a deus ex machina, if ever I saw one. You said nothing at all about the character of the medical conditions involved when you introduced this alleged scandal. Indeed only someone with access to private and confidential medical details could know the thing that you now claim to know, and that health care professional would have a public duty to forward evidence of the unauthorised referral to the competent supervisory authority. It would certainly be a breach of public duty by that health care professional to chose instead to gossip about the matter.

    In other words, Farang, you are bullshitting in order to hang on to an obviously fabricated story that you only shared because you imagined that it had propaganda value in support of your racist agenda.

    Indeed urgency is only one of several conditions that you could plead in retrospect now you have been caught with your pants down. The patients also needed to be local residents and not tourists, they had to be ill and not swinging the lead, and they were required to be human beings, because no such referrals are possible for veterinary services.

    Of course you have no evidence to substantiate this obvious urban myth. Only your own prejudiced predisposition to believe it notwithstanding the associated inconsistencies. indeed this story isn’t even original. It’s merely a recent Finnish adaptation of British pub-talk from the 1960s, not fit even for the red top tabloids.

    Your reasoned assessment is on the same level as that of a pedestrian who sees a black man driving an expensive car and instantly assumes that a crime has been committed. It really is that crude when all of the bullshit is cleaned off.

  26. Farang

    Very arrogant of you JD. Your own prejudice is described here quite well: What ever supports your own agenda and point of view is taken as a fact, no need to prove anything. But if something is against your agenda, you are demanding proof, otherwise you say it’s a lie.

    How do you seriously expect that this kind of things could be proven? Do you really think that I would have access to any documents that could show this is true?

  27. Mark

    Farang

    But if something is against your agenda, you are demanding proof, otherwise you say it’s a lie.

    How do you seriously expect that this kind of things could be proven? Do you really think that I would have access to any documents that could show this is true?

    Proven? We barely have any details. You refuse to give any. You use this story to support a conclusion that the entire public sector is experiencing a disturbing atmosphere. And in the end, you have the anecdotal evidence of three people and absolutely no details even about the services given, the circumstances or the justification for thinking that immigrants were deliberately manipulating the situation.

    This is pure racist anti-immigrant mischief, Farang. Unless you want to give us any actual details of actual cases? I’ve been waiting all day, I doubt that you have any more to add to this conversation except huff, puff and bluff!

  28. justicedemon

    Farang

    I’ll take that as your wounded admission that you knew you could never substantiate that urban myth.

    Let’s look at what you said:

    My examples were from health care. Immigrants have been demanding transfer to private sector because of the queues in public service and those have been approved and paid for.

    Your examples? What “examples” were those?

    Oh yes! They were the “examples” that you fabricated specifically because Mark challenged you on your source for a report of alleged preferential treatment:

    Now what is this based on? How many factual reports? What was received by the immigrants?

    To this, you responded:

    There have been reported to me straight by the people who work in public service.

    So you know who these people are, but this is already a fiduciary offence, and in any case official channels exist to investigate official misconduct. This is the point at which I knew you were bullshitting. When pressed by Mark for details of the number of Finnish public officials choosing to ignore official channels and instead sound off about their work to Farang, you wrote this piece of fiction:

    Well actually 3 persons. But that is quite high figure considering that I have discussed these issues thoroughly with 4 persons, so it makes 75 %. Of course the population is way too low to draw any conclusions, but it still shows the problem exists. These cases are just those that I PERSONALLY know of.

    When pressed further, you specified the alleged misconduct in these terms:

    Immigrants have been demanding transfer to private sector because of the queues in public service and those have been approved and paid for.

    But when I pointed out that referral to private service is a right under such circumstances (something you were clearly unaware of), then you had to backtrack with further fabricated details about the alleged non-urgency of the cases in question.

    The problem for you, Farang, is that urban myths of this kind have been in circulation for years, and not only in Finland. These stories may work with gullible epähiket in the pub, but their weaknesses are plain and obvious in the context of serious discussion with people who understand how public health care administration functions.

    So, do you intend to report your fictitious health care professionals for flagrant and unlawful misconduct in office? I’m sure that if a black immigrant nurse discussed the private medical affairs of patients with you, then you would be down at the police station like greased lightning, so why not in these three cases?

    You are a bullshitter of the highest order, and now you have been found out.

  29. Farang

    JD, you missed the point. If what I wrote about would have been vice versa, eg. immigrants being the victims and Finns being the wrongdoes, you would have no problem in believing it’s the truth. You wouldn’t even ask for evidence. And if someone else would ask for evidence, you would attack against him and claim he is racist.

    Just like while ago the blog entry was posted about that immigrant who has faced so and so much racism here in Finland. In your books that was the ultimate truth, no proof needed.

  30. Mark

    Farang

    JD, you missed the point. If what I wrote about would have been vice versa, eg. immigrants being the victims and Finns being the wrongdoes, you would have no problem in believing it’s the truth. You wouldn’t even ask for evidence. And if someone else would ask for evidence, you would attack against him and claim he is racist.

    More crap from you. Unprofessionalism in administring public services is unprofessionalism, regardless of whether it’s a Finn or an immigrant.

    The only lens you use to look at this topic is the one that says, “you are the racists”. This attempt to reverse the argument using a hypothetical is your attempt to turn attention away from the fact that you presented gossip about unprofessionalism among public service workers as being somehow representative of a much wider and “very common” problem in the Finnish public sector. And you created this conclusion on the back of 3 conversations and with no other details than some immigrants get health services from the Private Sector, which is very common, i.e. with Dental Care.

    So, no amount of hypotheticals, of accusing JD of racism that he was shown absolutely no tendency of will cover up the fact that you are mischief making about immigrants.

    Farang, how long are you going to hide from this? You have NO ANSWERS to the charges made against you on this thread – just repeating like a mantra ‘you are the racists’, even inventing stories where it would be true.

    You are a hopeless case!!!

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