Finland’s Kokoomus now flirts with simplistic immigration integration models

by , under All categories, Enrique

Finland’s conservative Kokoomus youth leader, Wille Rydman, makes an incredible statement in a letter to the editor to Helsingin Sanomat: The state should not support nor fund multiculturalism because it would hinder the adaption of immigrants into our society.

So, what he is suggesting is that funds from Finland’s well-intentioned but semi-wayward integration program have been earmarked for enhancing multiculturalism in Finland. If Rydman wants to look at Finland’s integration program seriously, he will note that it fails on many fronts, like instilling a sense of dignity in immigrants.

The issue is much simpler: work and acceptance. If you want newcomers to embrace and grow in their new home they will have to be inspired by it. Our society must offer them opportunities and, most importantly, acceptance.

Some Finns like Rydman have a simplistic view of how immigrants should conform and adapt to our society.This is understandable because they have never lived in societies, and if they have have never fully grasped, where immigration is normal and where synergies occur.

One of the most flawed components or Finland’s integration program is that adaption of immigrants is one-way: that is, we will tell you how to adapt to our society and what is important to us. This is Rydman’s simplistic recipe: throw away your culture and learn Finnish as a Finn or Swedish as a Swede and, presto, full integration.

This type of recipe for immigrants is not only a disaster but leads to exclusion. Could he please tell us where this type of integration has occurred successfully?

Another saddening aspect of Rydman’s discourse, who is a member of Finland’s largest political party, is that he thinks that all these civil rights goodies in our constitution and laws, like equality and the right to diversity, do not apply to immigrants.

These types of simplistic solutions to the dynamics of immigration is not only irresponsible but shows how little some politicians understand the issue. Certainly with elections in April 2011 around the corner, politicians such as Rydman are eyeing the elections with opportunistic gleam.

Rydman looks at two extreme example of immigration policy: France and Sweden. Why didn’t he look at how the “major leagues,” countries like the United States, Canada, Australia or England in the European Union, handle large immigrant populations?

Europe is a sad case lined with too many politicians such as Rydman and an unfortunate list of others who forget our dark and xenophobic past.What happened in the 1930s in Nazi Germany and most recently in the former Yugoslavia should serve as extreme rude wake up calls.

  1. JusticeDemon

    So presumably we shall begin by abolishing Yle regional news and programmes like Ođđasat, and withholding public subsidies from ALL cultural events that fail to conform to the (chosen) monoculture? These would certainly include Kihaus Folk, which is strongly focused on the minority culture of Northern Carelia and Kainuu – something that bears no resemblance to the ordinary lives of Kokoomus voters in Espoo.

    Never mind, at the end of this process we would still presumable have Suomi Pop.

    Any government that seeks to govern impartially and fairly must either adopt a multicultural view of society or get out of the field of culture completely (a more or less impossible ambition). Any other approach inevitably requires minorities to subsidise an assumed mainstream, which at least reopens the debate on church tax, etc.

    • Enrique

      Hi JusticeDemon, I hope you are well. You make a lot of very valid points. The bottom line is that if you let the whole issue be handled by ethnocentric and ignorant politicians you are going to have a major disaster. We can all disagree with methods and pathways to incorporation into society for immigrants but we must chose an effective and sensible model that will give everyone a sense of community. Ramming down one’s culture down other people’s throat is not the way you do it. In my opinion, it is not how we prize ourselves as citizens of liberal, western democratic societies.

  2. Osmo

    Where has Multiculturalism occurred successfully is the question, not where full integration has occured successfully. When newcomers came to Canada in the 1800’s and 1900’s, they were successfully integrated. Now, with multiculturalism, there is low integration. These newcomers build communities within communities, hiring their own kind, excluding their hosts. This is the fact that is in Canada, and no theories can change that, or what some professor has expounded on to create a better Finland. Just take a good long look at Vacouver, where there are at least two communities within the community: Chinese and East Indian. Vancouver has been called Hong-couver because of the huge numbers of Chinese. Now, if this is the kind of society you would like, then Multiculturalism is for you. But I sincerely doubt that the average Finn wants to be a host to another or several societies within Finland.

    The bottom line in the end is not what the government wants, but what Finns want. Have a referendum and find this out, then proceed with government policy. You can’t dispute the will of the people, but you can dispute the will of the government.

    • Enrique

      Hi Osmo, the Ottoman Emprie is one place where you could start to look. Imagine the cultural and religious diversity within that empire. It created a system whereby different groups lived in one emprie for over a half a millennium until the nineteenth century. Without going into all the reasons, the bottom line was that the Arab communities of the empire started to impose their rule over other communities. This, as we all know, led the the wholesale massacre/genocide of groups like the Armenians from World War I. It changed from being an empire that managed diversity to one that was overcome by suspicion and xenophobia. The difference between those that succeed or fail is how they deal with diversity. Deal with it ethnocentrically and you will have major problems.
      I think you have to ask WHO was integrated successfully in those examples you mention. If you were a Brit or any white-skinned European, the integration process would proceed at different paces. You claim that multiculturalism does not work. Can you give me a model that works better? It is not about what kind of a society we want but how well our society deals with diversity. In sum we live in a globalized world and the fact is that you have those “Chinese and East Indians” you mention among our ranks. It is a fact of life and no matter how much you want to change it, you cannot, because that would mean throwing them out of the country like what happened with the Jews in Germany in 1933-45. So, better learn to live with it and make the best of the sitaution. I personally have no problems with diversity. I do not see it as a strain on society. On the contrary, it can be a huge benefit if society and government knows how to manage it.

  3. JusticeDemon

    Hello Ricky.

    I thought I was pointing out that Finland has been multicultural for a very long time, and that this has nothing in particular to do with immigration. The cultural differences between the various regions of Finland and especially between urban and rural communities are far greater than most cultural disparities arising from immigration.

    This leaves Wille Rydman (please get the name right) in an invidious position when it comes to explaining the precise content and intended consequences of his observation that valtion ei pitäisi tukea eikä rajoittaa kenenkään kulttuuri identiteettiä. Considerable direct and indirect public subsidies currently support the cultural identities of millions of people in Finland. I mentioned Ođđasat as a particularly prominent example of this, but it is by no means the most costly subsidy of its kind.

    As all subsidies come from the common public purse to which everyone contributes, any half-measures in abolishing cultural subsidies would be necessarily inequitable.

    I think you are basically correct in asserting that diversity management is the key to success in modern society. To this I would only add that there is, and has been, far more diversity than is commonly supposed, and that this is by no means the sole preserve of recent immigration.

  4. Tiwaz

    -“I thought I was pointing out that Finland has been multicultural for a very long time, and that this has nothing in particular to do with immigration. The cultural differences between the various regions of Finland and especially between urban and rural communities are far greater than most cultural disparities arising from immigration.”

    This just shows you don’t know jack shit about Finnish communities, yet you think you are in position to start educating us Finns about them.

    Guess what it makes you? Arrogant.
    And idiot to top it off because smart person would have figured out by now how little they know.

    You appear to live in your bubble of perfect multiculturalism and refuse to grasp the reality beyond your little illusionary bubble.

    Ottoman Empire as example of “working” multiculturalism.
    If it was so succesful, why it no longer exists?

    Oh yes! BECAUSE IT DOES NOT WORK!
    Multiculturalism in Ottoman empire failed because it failed to make people feel UNITY. No unity meant that different groups started to see one another as rivals and enemies.

    Only society which offers unity to it’s population can be stable in long term. Finnish society has existed here since Ice age as far as anyone knows. We beat your multicultural Ottomans by millenia or few.

    Only societies where common core cultural norms are accepted and respected are ones where people feel unity and thus no need to lash against one another.

  5. Tiwaz

    Because there are few essential issues which make immigrants dead weight:

    1) Not figuring out the culture. Going to interview with attitude which would make you hot shit in USA, makes you appear bragging asshole in Finland.
    Furthermore, people trust other people they can “read”. That means you have to act in a way that is familiar to others to make them trust you.

    Adjust your behavior to local standards immigrant.

    2) Not figuring out the language. English is NOT replacement for Finnish at work. While office language might be English, most colleagues will still use Finnish.

    And office language tends to be Finnish outside engineering professions, so those of you who are not in engineering field… It gets tough.

    Learn the language.

    3) Useless papers.
    Having graduate papers from Arsewipe University Arkansas tell nothing to Finnish employer about your education. Get you papers exchanged to Finnish/EU equivalents.

    4) Useless skills or total lack of them.
    Finland has little use for people with no skills at all.
    We do not hire unskilled people to do our gardening or anything else like you might see in USA.
    Nor do we have lots of jobs open for goat herding.

    In short, if you have no skills of use, learn new ones instead of assuming that fault is with Finland instead of your lacking portfolio.

  6. xyz

    This doesn’t answer the question. Why is the unemployment in Finland so high if you have the lowest percentage of immigrants in Finland? You said that only with UNITY a country can be successful. This is however not the case as you can see from the unemployment statistics.

  7. Tiwaz

    It does answer the question.

    We are speaking of percentages. In case you gentlemen were not aware, percentage does not equal absolute numbers.

    Germany has most certainly far more unemployed immigrants than Finland, they just have so much more of them.

    Finnish immigrant unemployment is high because Finland places more requirements for successful integration into work. Because of this, higher percentage of those who have immigrated are unemployed than compared to societies where there are more jobs where no skills are required.

    As immigrants develop language skills and cultural skills, their unemployment numbers start to go down. Assuming they have some proper education to build on.

    Those who have highly useful, generally engineering, skills are often hired even without language or cultural skills.

    Then we have groups like Somalis who as group have below par skills for survival in worklife in Finland.

    Little to no education, possibly completely illiterate, and skillsets useful in their native land are useless in Finland. Add to this determination not to integrate into Finland included to habit to try to live only amongst themselves and you have recipe for ethnic group bound for failure which hikes up the percentages of unemployed.

  8. xyz

    Seems you have no mathematical skills either.
    If unemployment rate of immigrants is twice as much as for natives PLUS immigrant population is 4-5 times lower than for example in Germany PLUS general unemployment is even higher in Finland than in Germany then I would assume that your statement of unity is completely crap.
    The problem is actually your stupid attitude towards foreigners and not their education.

  9. xyz

    We are speaking of percentages. In case you gentlemen were not aware, percentage does not equal absolute numbers.
    And you are talking about engineering and science skills. I showed this comment to my coworkers here and they all started laughing. And such people get jobs in Finland, unbelievable 🙂

  10. Tiwaz

    Apparently your coworkers could use a little re-reading on percentages.

    Percent expresses value as fraction of 100. It is not value in same way as for example 5 apples is.
    You desperately try to mess up the situation by trying to mix these two where they cannot be mixed.

    -“Seems you have no mathematical skills either.
    If unemployment rate of immigrants is twice as much as for natives PLUS immigrant population is 4-5 times lower than for example in Germany PLUS general unemployment is even higher in Finland than in Germany then I would assume that your statement of unity is completely crap.
    The problem is actually your stupid attitude towards foreigners and not their education.”

    Idiot.

    You start adding to this equation things which do not belong there.

    Population is already taken into account when we say that 2% of population are immigrants.
    Same way, unemployment in Finland compared to Germany is irrelevant.

    Simple fact is: Immigrants are umemployed because they do not work hard enough to integrate to Finnish society and/or they fail to have/learn skills which have any use in Finland.

    Goat herder will be forever unemployed in Finland. We have no jobs for those.

    You just desperately try to deny that immigrants are ones who are mostly to blame for their failure.

    As for unity, I referred to unity of society or cohesion of society. This requires ONE set of principles according to which everyone acts, namely called “culture”. Go to other thread here to see why culture is so essential in this and try to understand based on that why there needs to be only one culture which is considered universal in one society.

  11. xyz

    Percent expresses value as fraction of 100. It is not value in same way as for example 5 apples is.
    -Excuse me, if I have 11.5% unemployed in Finland (2.9% immigrants) and only 4.6% unemployed in Switzerland (24% immigrants) then I suppose that your theory of Unity is completely nonsense.

    Goat herder will be forever unemployed in Finland. We have no jobs for those.
    -Why not? You also got one.

    Same way, unemployment in Finland compared to Germany is irrelevant.
    -Why is it irrelevant? Because it does not match with your own theories?

  12. Danjuho

    Well i can kinda agree with both sides here. Finnish people have a right to say who enters their country or who doesn’t (though it’s a little too late because of the EU, and also the fact that immigrants are already inside).
    Let’s ignore Science for a while and look at the reality of immigration. The Finnish people will clearly be the short-term losers in this game. Finnish people are proud of their conservative-ness and rarely like anybody in their personal space. You and me cannot change that. Not even the Finns themselves.

    Their social systems are also burdened. They have low Employment among Finns what about immigrants? if there are less immigrants working, they will definitely be supported by crime, or government.
    But the issue is not policies. Even the dumbest Finn knows they NEED immigration. The issue is of accommodation. Ever had an “immigrant” get on the bus/train with children running all over, and the parent screaming on the phone? Bingo! Finns Will not Dislike that, but they will HATE you (Note most finns rate an immigrant as anyone without white color and blond hair:D – just a joke! )

    *****in many places i will use Finns to refer to the conservative anti-change Finnish Citizen************

    If we get back to science, the fin. society has a very low level of immigrant growth. The majority of 27 year old fins. upwards never sat with a Black/Asian/whoever by their side, except when they were on Holiday. They have never grown around them, and so understand that new things will never be welcomed at once. There must be resistance first, then separation of communities, followed by last stage; balanced integration level. It will take time for the fin. to love the joy of the Chinese restaurant, or Indian curry café without travelling away from his/her city.

    Now to the Finns. Simply answer one question and i will be satisfied. Who is this fool who is bringing in these “immigrants”? In which office/hole do they live in? I mean please don’t tell me it is a government of the Majority if majority is against immigration.

    So i say this, and i stand to be corrected.

    There are some numbers the Finnish parliament sees, that scares them. scary low birthrate and divorce-rate is not an issues the average Finn will lose his/her sleep about. But the politicians who see the future know a state can be swallowed up, and forgotten. Most come in screaming “no immigrants”, get the facts and before you know it the coloreds are inside Finland. You think i’m Bull crapping you? (Sarkozy ring a bell?)

    here are some things I’ve heard from Finns. The rate of Summer-cottage ownership is increasingly Russian. Russian investors are even faking origins so they buy Finnish companies. If you know the Russia Vs Georgia story, I can only say if you live next door to a rich no none-sense neighbor…..i won’t say more.

    The Finn also has a choice on who to welcome. you welcome th wrong people, you will slowly loose your country. Ask the Emirates who are stuck with high debt, Porsches and Ferarris rusting by highways. some people look decent, but they will screw you and leave you to rot. The Finn parliament knows this. so..

    To the Finn who is against immigration, i say to you too late!
    To the Finn who says the new folk should learn the language, I say why? have you anything they can benefit from? like a job… Human beings want to know what’s in it for them.

    To the Finn who says most immigrants are not skilled, i partly agree, esp. with Somalis and the others from war countries.-But hey, Finland is a unique country, if it has to take the young boy from a child army where he will be forced to chop a man’s head off, The child should have a degree in Engineering, or if not the child, the mother should stop grazing cows and dodging bullets & take an online internet degree before going to Finland.

    Finland government has put in place structures that only accept immigrants of a certain educational ability to enter the country. This is especially so for the Student coming from India, Africa and Latin american continents. The students learn the harsh reality of unemployment and the other fact that their skin color makes them ugly. ask any drunk Finn (well if he doesn’t spit first)

    The harsh truth is that the Finns have to stop being paranoid. They only focus on the bad examples, but hey, look at good examples of immigrant integration – or should the right word be “immigrant control?” Germany! ( i know they have integration problems! no country is perfect! )
    but look at their language integration. Germany has most of it’s immigrants speaking fluent German! show me a German colony in Africa/anywhere that speaks German. None!

    But the benefit the German local shop owner/ government offers to the immigrants is employment and better life. Who wouldn’t want to learn German and get a job?

    Most immigrants simply look for a better life, not to take away your pension or drive a Porsche. Most of them are sick of their corrupt governments and bad culture. They look to finland, and the Finnish Man might smile while cursing in their brain. See the chance, grow your economy, and live better. but if you don’t as many as come in, they will also leave. Get real Finns.

  13. Tiwaz

    -“xcuse me, if I have 11.5% unemployed in Finland (2.9% immigrants) and only 4.6% unemployed in Switzerland (24% immigrants) then I suppose that your theory of Unity is completely nonsense.”

    And of course Switzerland takes lots of useless, uneducated Somalis to enrich their society?

    Oh yeah! They keep it to minimum. Outside EU residents getting to Switzerland have lots of hoops to hop through.

    “To submit an application for a residence permit, you usually need to show proof of potential employment in Switzerland. Applications are normally submitted by the future employer to the cantonal immigration or labour authorities. Entry to Switzerland is only possible once the cantonal agency issues a confirmation of the residence permit. ”

    As for talking about who is stupid. I would say you are.
    You are the imbecile who does not grasp basics of percentages.
    You are the imbecile who when told that people with proper skills get employed in Finland presented three cases to “prove” opposite.

    Yourself, clearly disqualified due to stupidity.
    Your double Master’s fried, whom you did not tell what fields he has or if he can call a goddamn taxi in Finnish.
    And third, Pakistani engineer who is EMPLOYED.

    -“Why is it irrelevant? Because it does not match with your own theories?”

    Conditions. Finland has very few jobs for unskilled labor. We have high skill requirements for workers. Which is why you did not get a job.

    -“If we get back to science, the fin. society has a very low level of immigrant growth. The majority of 27 year old fins. upwards never sat with a Black/Asian/whoever by their side, except when they were on Holiday. They have never grown around them, and so understand that new things will never be welcomed at once. There must be resistance first, then separation of communities, followed by last stage; balanced integration level. It will take time for the fin. to love the joy of the Chinese restaurant, or Indian curry café without travelling away from his/her city.”

    Incorrect. If you look at historically immigrant rich societies, you notice that last phase of integration never takes place unless immigrants are forced to integrate.

    Why else do you think USA has places called “Chinatown” or “Little Havana”?
    Immigrants, if in large enough numbers and not forced by other means to integrate tend to form their own little communities which then become hotspots of crime and other problems due to cultural conflict.

    As it is, I quite enjoy Chinese food. And Indian. But I do not want to have Chinese culture or Indian culture start telling me how to act in my homeland.

    Chinese and Indians adjust to Finland. If their culture has something useful to offer which does not conflict with existing Finnish culture, it might be added to Finnish culture.

    But assuming that things which are in clear conflict with existing Finnish culture to somehow be added. Impossible.

    -“Now to the Finns. Simply answer one question and i will be satisfied. Who is this fool who is bringing in these “immigrants”? In which office/hole do they live in? I mean please don’t tell me it is a government of the Majority if majority is against immigration. ”

    Problem is, our government is in desperate need of serious shakedown. They do their way and flip a finger to what people want.

    People want to toss forced Swedish studies to trashcan and learn USEFUL foreign language.
    What is solution of politicians? Ignore democratic vote in their own party to curry favor from tiny RKP.
    Why? Because RKP is easy government companion. All they care about is that everyone is forced to learn Swedish.

    Same in immigration. That though is changing as people have simply had enough and there is useful protest party to vote for. I predict that unless problems caused by unintegrating immigrants are solved soon, PS-party will keep rising.

    -“To the Finn who says most immigrants are not skilled, i partly agree, esp. with Somalis and the others from war countries.-But hey, Finland is a unique country, if it has to take the young boy from a child army where he will be forced to chop a man’s head off, The child should have a degree in Engineering, or if not the child, the mother should stop grazing cows and dodging bullets & take an online internet degree before going to Finland.”

    Of course it is not their fault they have no useful skills. But it is not Finnish fault that our society does not need people with no skills.

    It is again duty of immigrant to learn skills needed to be viable for employment. But how many immigrants, specifically refugees, take this route?

    -“The students learn the harsh reality of unemployment and the other fact that their skin color makes them ugly. ask any drunk Finn (well if he doesn’t spit first)”

    Their lack of skills makes them unemployed. They have to learn either skill which is in so high demand that their lack of language skills is irrelevant, or learn the preferred means of communication of natives.

    -“but look at their language integration. Germany has most of it’s immigrants speaking fluent German! show me a German colony in Africa/anywhere that speaks German. None! ”

    Huge portion of Turkish gastarbaiters and their offspring could not speak their way out of wet paperbag in German. This despite being born in Germany.

    They have their own little clique which tries to preted they live in Turkey.

    -“Most immigrants simply look for a better life, not to take away your pension or drive a Porsche. Most of them are sick of their corrupt governments and bad culture. They look to finland, and the Finnish Man might smile while cursing in their brain. See the chance, grow your economy, and live better. but if you don’t as many as come in, they will also leave. Get real Finns.”

    And we Finns have nothing against immigrant who is willing to adjust to Finland instead of demanding us to adjust to them.

    Integrate, learn language, learn useful skills. Welcome workers who want to INTEGRATE first and foremost.

    Just compare the “boat refugees” of days long gone and today with Somalis.
    First group, despite coming when Finland was far more conservative than today, have made it rather well. Somalis who have benefits of all kinds of programs etc… Fail.

    Difference? Asian refugees took it upon themselves to learn language and work hard to get somewhere.
    Traits Finns respect greatly.
    Somalis? They manage to project image of group who are most concerned of getting as much as possible with least effort.

    • Enrique

      Tiwaz, relations between cultures is pretty much the same as between people. Either you have it or don’t. By your insults and offensive language, you definitely do not have it.

      Moreover, you like to bash people and groups in order to uplift your sense of low-esteem. It must be hell being you.

  14. xyz

    And of course Switzerland takes lots of useless, uneducated Somalis to enrich their society?
    -Well at least it’s an attractive country. Why are all those foreigners in Switzerland not coming to Finland? About the useless and uneducated Somalis: Why not train them? I just heard that Finnish education know how has been exported to the Arab Emirates? There are only 5000 Somalis in Finland…should be not such a big deal?!?

    “To submit an application for a residence permit, you usually need to show proof of potential employment in Switzerland. Applications are normally submitted by the future employer to the cantonal immigration or labour authorities. Entry to Switzerland is only possible once the cantonal agency issues a confirmation of the residence permit. ”
    -Same in Finland. You don’t get a residence permit if you don’t have a job or relatives in Finland. (By the way, I have worked in Switzerland before I came to Finland)

    You are the imbecile who does not grasp basics of percentages.
    -And how do you want to compare countries if not with percentages?

    Your double Master’s fried, whom you did not tell what fields he has or if he can call a goddamn taxi in Finnish.
    -Well if Finland offers ENGLISH degrees in this field then I suppose they should be somehow useful? Or do you think Finnish degrees are recognized abroad if it is such a big deal with foreign qualifications in Finland?

    And third, Pakistani engineer who is EMPLOYED.
    -But underpaid

    Conditions. Finland has very few jobs for unskilled labor. We have high skill requirements for workers. Which is why you did not get a job.
    -I Am quite sure that I am currently working in a better company than you do. We even have a gym in the office and 3 screens on each floor to watch the World Cup in South Africa. I can also play table soccer during the brakes. How about you? 🙂

  15. danjuho

    @ Tiwaz. It’s actually cool to say what you think, but here’s the thing.

    You make assumptions that culture is Explicit knowledge, that can be read, and immediately implemented. No. culture is called tacit knowledge, and cannot be learnt. the bigger the cultural difference, the harder it will be to adapt. Its easier for a Swede to Adapt to Finn culture than it is for an American, or whoever.

    And as you say, that; “If you look at historically immigrant rich societies, you notice that last phase of integration never takes place unless immigrants are forced to integrate.”

    i do not know about the facts or where you got them from, but EVEN IF what YOU say is to be considered, Finland is forcing imigration!! there is no “natural growth of immigration in Finland. To be honest no one comes here for the culture. Let me explain more.
    Finalnd isn’t the most desirable locations to live because of culture and harsh weather. So to attract the “hard working Pakistani,” you need to give incentives. These incentives also go out to other people.

    i hope you know (since you’re good at numbers) that the majority of Finnish populace is aging.

    Finland is Forcing immigration by giving benefits e.g Marriage benefits and child support.

    you cannot fully intergrate in a different society, unless you are born in Finland. and also aceepted by the finns.

    i will say this again, no one will intergrate if they do not know what’s in it for them. No government can force intergration. That’s why people like martin luther died, but left a better environment for all.

    The anger you are feeling now is simply a process of intergration because it is seemingly forced on you!
    here’s a fact.

    You do not have to tell immigrants to change, they already proved they can changed by moving from their places. but when they find arrogant people who won’t change to accept them, they form a chinatown or turk-place to feel secure.

    Whether you like it or not, The Finn has to change also. there are points in which they will loose and places they will gain.

    you cannot claim that to have a good lock, you only make a key. No you have to model a lock that will also fit with the key. Both parties should change.

  16. Tiwaz

    -“Tiwaz, relations between cultures is pretty much the same as between people. Either you have it or don’t. By your insults and offensive language, you definitely do not have it.”

    What happened to your delusion that cultures are not different?

    -“Moreover, you like to bash people and groups in order to uplift your sense of low-esteem. It must be hell being you.”

    I bash idiots like xyz who do nothing to contribute to any society they belong to.

    I am happy he has left Finland, and now wish that he would stop being bitter failure and whining how horrible Finland is. He might be scaring away WORTHY immigrant who is not similar whining failure as he is.

    -“Well at least it’s an attractive country. Why are all those foreigners in Switzerland not coming to Finland? About the useless and uneducated Somalis: Why not train them? I just heard that Finnish education know how has been exported to the Arab Emirates? There are only 5000 Somalis in Finland…should be not such a big deal?!?”

    Because Switzerland has not permitted flowerhatters to ruin the reputation of nation by letting in failures, besides you.

    As for Somalis. They are permitted to go learn. Why THEY do not enroll to schools to learn? This is again your idiotic attitude that immigrants should be led by hand to school, then somehow miraculously have learning done to them as well.

    Somalis do not learn because they do not want to go to school by and large. Some of them do, those learn. Those prosper. But huge portion just become useless waste of resources.

    -“I Am quite sure that I am currently working in a better company than you do. We even have a gym in the office and 3 screens on each floor to watch the World Cup in South Africa. I can also play table soccer during the brakes. How about you?”

    Gym, free movie tickets, free “culture tickets” (to pay my other hobby), free coffee, company pays most of our Coca-Cola etc expenses, access to golf course and whatnot.

    -“Well if Finland offers ENGLISH degrees in this field then I suppose they should be somehow useful? Or do you think Finnish degrees are recognized abroad if it is such a big deal with foreign qualifications in Finland?”

    No idiot, they are not. Go to Canada with Finnish degree and quite often you are required to have it recognized into Canadian equivalent. Of course, if you can convince potential employer that you have the skills, they can ignore it. But that again depends on YOU being able to do something.

    -“You make assumptions that culture is Explicit knowledge, that can be read, and immediately implemented. No. culture is called tacit knowledge, and cannot be learnt. the bigger the cultural difference, the harder it will be to adapt. Its easier for a Swede to Adapt to Finn culture than it is for an American, or whoever.”

    Maybe you should read what I said again and THINK.

    I NEVER said that you can easily learn new culture, or immediately implement it. I simply said flat out that you MUST.

    And I quite agree with you! Cultural gap makes process either easier or harder. Could you teach that to Enriqe? He has this delusion that cultures “are not that different”.

    It is still irrelevant! It does not matter if you have to cross molehill or mountain to adjust to Finnish culture. It is something you must do if you wish to prosper in Finland. And you have to do it yourself.

    -“i do not know about the facts or where you got them from, but EVEN IF what YOU say is to be considered, Finland is forcing imigration!! there is no “natural growth of immigration in Finland. To be honest no one comes here for the culture. Let me explain more.
    Finalnd isn’t the most desirable locations to live because of culture and harsh weather. So to attract the “hard working Pakistani,” you need to give incentives. These incentives also go out to other people. ”

    I told you examples where you can yourself go and see how immigrants refuse to integrate. Read and think.

    Let me explain something to you. We do not give a crap. Pakistani who does not want to integrate is Pakistani we do not want.

    Finland does not NEED immigrants. It is not make or break issue. All the scare tactics of “people grow old” and rest of BS about running out of workers. They are just that, bullshit.

    What is essential is that we must ensure that we get type of immigrant who will stick to Finland and adjust to Finland.

    We must concentrate on quality, not quantity. And quality we obtain by keeping incoming waste to absolute minimum. Give it decade or two and smart people from all over Europe will beg to enter those countries who have refused to let multiculturalism ruin them.

    UK already experiences white flight. Go google.

    -“i hope you know (since you’re good at numbers) that the majority of Finnish populace is aging.”

    I hope you grasp that we all age. I hope you also grasp that Finland has steady decline in manpower intensive industry. We do not need “no-skill”-workers to do nonexistent manual labor.

    -“you cannot fully intergrate in a different society, unless you are born in Finland. and also aceepted by the finns. ”

    But you can learn to act in one according to it’s principles and norms.

    -“i will say this again, no one will intergrate if they do not know what’s in it for them. No government can force intergration. That’s why people like martin luther died, but left a better environment for all.”

    I suggest very simple solution. Integrate or… Leave.

    What is in for them, is right to live in stable, functional society which WORKS.

    If those who commit crime or refuse to contribute to society are thrown out, we will keep Finland stable, safe and functional.

    -“You do not have to tell immigrants to change, they already proved they can changed by moving from their places. but when they find arrogant people who won’t change to accept them, they form a chinatown or turk-place to feel secure.”

    They proved nothing. They did not change when they moved, they change when they change their attitude and way of behavior.

    Finnish culture and society is not something to bargain away. You do not immigrate here and tell us natives that if we give up piece X of our culture you adjust to piece Y of our culture.

    Cultures which accept such trade are failures which die away, because immigrants would keep bargaining until Finnish culture is no more.

  17. xyz

    I bash idiots like xyz who do nothing to contribute to any society they belong to.
    -Hmm…I have paid taxes during my stay in Finland but left because there are no jobs. Now I get even better paid than in Finland. Guess what, my Finnish Fiancée is studying in Finland and I support her financially with money from Ireland.

    We must concentrate on quality, not quantity. And quality we obtain by keeping incoming waste to absolute minimum.
    -Imagine this guy works in a fancy company and he would be your manager. Would you like to work for him?

    • Enrique

      –I bash idiots like xyz who do nothing to contribute to any society they belong to.

      You “bash” people like xyz. See a shrink. He or she might help you.

  18. xyz

    What is essential is that we must ensure that we get type of immigrant who will stick to Finland and adjust to Finland.
    -You think somebody wants to stick to Finland if they read your stuff?

  19. xyz

    Cultures which accept such trade are failures which die away, because immigrants would keep bargaining until Finnish culture is no more.
    -How about seeing a xenophobia doctor? Buhhh…I scared you 🙂

  20. xyz

    If those who commit crime or refuse to contribute to society are thrown out, we will keep Finland stable, safe and functional.
    -There is no way that foreigners can contribute to a society if they are excluded from it.

    • Enrique

      -There is no way that foreigners can contribute to a society if they are excluded from it.

      xyz you are absolutely right. THe problem in Finland is exclusion with a capital E. Guys like Tiwaz are afraid they will lose their jobs because others can outwork them to the ground. Then they will join the Social Democratic Party and start acusing these efficient immigrants of spreading racism.

  21. xyz

    I am happy he has left Finland, and now wish that he would stop being bitter failure and whining how horrible Finland is. He might be scaring away WORTHY immigrant who is not similar whining failure as he is.
    -I would not call it a failure. I was able to get an insight into this society and now I am able to compare with other countries. Why should I scare WORTHY immigrants away? You are the Finn so it’s your task to present your country in an attractive way in order to get WORTHY immigrants (if they ever want to come after they have read your postings).

    • Enrique

      I think xyz is a winner. He is smart: no opportunities go to a country that offers them. That is a smart move. Then he shows even greater intelligence and helps others to know of the challenges of moving to Finland and finding work.

  22. Tiwaz

    -“Hmm…I have paid taxes during my stay in Finland but left because there are no jobs. Now I get even better paid than in Finland. Guess what, my Finnish Fiancée is studying in Finland and I support her financially with money from Ireland.”

    You got no job = you have no skills.
    That you got a job in Ireland is no surprise. You got it when Finns were paying Ireland huge amounts of money with which Irish built their economical “miracle”.

    Today, Ireland is going down. They are one of the nations in list of EU countries who are considered biggest credit risk. And thus are receiving loans only at ever higher interest.

    Finland is on opposite end. Finland has had it’s interest rates drop.

    -“You think somebody wants to stick to Finland if they read your stuff?”

    Hell yes. When they sit in their home in Britain, watch their country losing it’s identity and turning more and more into shitty multicultural hellhole, they will be overjoyed to think of country which knows what it is and where multiculturalism has not been granted room to fester.

    -“I would not call it a failure. I was able to get an insight into this society and now I am able to compare with other countries. ”

    You were not able to find work in Finland despite trying to claim that you have great skills. That means you are failure either by lying that you have skills or you are just shitty person to hire.

    -“xyz you are absolutely right. THe problem in Finland is exclusion with a capital E.”

    Who is excluding who? Immigrants are free to join community, but problem is that immigrants like you expect Finns to appease you and adjust to you. So that you do not have to change.

    Such people are never welcomed anywhere. Except in society built of spineless multiculturalism worshippers.

    -“Guys like Tiwaz are afraid they will lose their jobs because others can outwork them to the ground.”

    Heh. Considering my field of expertise and skills, you are hard pressed to find immigrant who could outwork me.

    Such are, I admit. But damn few.
    And damn sure none of those who are unemployed in Finland could ever dream of pulling that off.

    -“Then they will join the Social Democratic Party and start acusing these efficient immigrants of spreading racism.”

    Efficient? I think you should take off your delusional glasses and smell the roses.

    These “efficient” immigrants, who for example are building new nuclear plant, are such miserable failures that mentioned plant is STILL under construction when it should be already churning out electricity.

    Because of POOR QUALITY OF WORK!
    Immigrant efficiency equals poor quality.

    Juosten kustu is Finnish term for it.

  23. xyz

    Finland is on opposite end. Finland has had it’s interest rates drop.
    -The funny thing is that even so that they are doing so bad, foreigners can find a job here. What about Finland?

    That means you are failure either by lying that you have skills or you are just shitty person to hire.
    -Hmm…I get contacted every week by 2 recruiters here in Ireland (from big IT companies). So I suppose I am not a failure. I was just in the wrong country. I could also go to my home country and find easily a job. As I said, I just went to Finland because of my Fiancee. Never had any interest to move to Finland before I met her.

    Heh. Considering my field of expertise and skills, you are hard pressed to find immigrant who could outwork me.
    -Good that you have some self-esteem. I have it too so I left Finland.

    These “efficient” immigrants, who for example are building new nuclear plant, are such miserable failures that mentioned plant is STILL under construction when it should be already churning out electricity.
    -Why do they not hire efficient Finns then? Who needs a nuclear plant anyway. If you guys would be technology leaders then you would go for alternative energy sources.

    Because of POOR QUALITY OF WORK!
    Immigrant efficiency equals poor quality.
    -How do you know? You have never worked with one since you suffer from the fortress syndrom 🙂

  24. Tiwaz

    -“The funny thing is that even so that they are doing so bad, foreigners can find a job here. What about Finland?”

    They can! That one forum for foreigners I frequent. Just some time ago one guy told how he landed a real nice job in arse end of nowhere called Kajaani.

    How? He went out and mingled with natives. Made himself known, showed he wanted to work and what skills he had.
    Now he makes, according to his own estimate, nice amount of money doing something he has excellent skills for.

    It is skills and attitude of immigrant which make or break them. Have useful skills (or learn them) and have attitude of fitting in and showing you want to contribute and… Boof! Finns accept you and give you a job if they have one which fits you!

    If that guy had same kind of attitude problem which I see in you, he would still be unemployed.

    -“Hmm…I get contacted every week by 2 recruiters here in Ireland (from big IT companies). So I suppose I am not a failure. I was just in the wrong country. I could also go to my home country and find easily a job. As I said, I just went to Finland because of my Fiancee. Never had any interest to move to Finland before I met her.”

    And let me guess… Your attitude is different for Ireland compared to Finland. Your every message reeks of you having what Finns would consider bad attitude.

    You clearly do not fit into Finland, because of that it is good for us all that you left. But stop moaning and whining about how bad Finland is because YOU could not fit in.

    I did not want to fit in with England. Do you see me whining how Britons are racists and so forth like you attack Finns and Finland all the time?

    -“Why do they not hire efficient Finns then? Who needs a nuclear plant anyway. If you guys would be technology leaders then you would go for alternative energy sources.”

    Because efficient and skilled Finns cost money. It is the traditional cost cutting (and corner) which we see here.

    Companies want to save money so they go for cheap labor. And then pay for that in crap quality, which in case with Finnish inspectors swarming to construction site means that Areva keeps redoing things and paying fines because their cheap workers cannot produce sufficient quality.

    As for nuclear power. It is only viable and clean option. Alternative power?

    Let’s talk about alternative lack of power.
    Solar power? Yeah, right. As if that helps when our electricity consumption peaks during DARK winter.
    Wave power? Not with pitifully small waves our seashores have and with nonexistent tides.
    Wind power? Unreliable and inefficient. Their actual output is less than 30% of claimed output (only obtainable in optimal conditions) and would require equal amount of reliable power output to adjust the difference of consumption and production.
    Geothermal? Not with up to 230km of solid granite beneath us.
    Hydropower? Built to just about maximum as it is.

    Nuclear power is only realistic option, and due to our extremely stable and thick bedrock, storing waste is not an issue either.

    -“How do you know? You have never worked with one since you suffer from the fortress syndrom”

    Wrong again. We have several foreigners in our office. I am even in same workgroup with some of them.

    They just do not have attitude problem.

    THESE guys have good work quality though. They are professoinals hired for skills, not because they are cheap.

  25. xyz

    If that guy had same kind of attitude problem which I see in you, he would still be unemployed.
    -yes exactly, 4 years job hunting, 250 applications, 2 Finnish courses.

    You clearly do not fit into Finland, because of that it is good for us all that you left. But stop moaning and whining about how bad Finland is because YOU could not fit in.
    -Well I had a different attitude towards Finland when I came there 4 years ago. However, if you always get rejections there and get to hear that they can’t hire foreigners then I am better off somewhere else.

    Just some time ago one guy told how he landed a real nice job in arse end of nowhere called Kajaani.
    -Well if he wants to live there then it’s his joice. Most likely nobody applied for this job that’s why he got it.

    Your every message reeks of you having what Finns would consider bad attitude.
    -Why? Because I don’t say Finland is great? Why should I live there if I have better options in other countries?

    Because efficient and skilled Finns cost money. It is the traditional cost cutting (and corner) which we see here.
    -Yeah and in other countries employees do not cost money and they are all lazy.

    Nuclear power is only realistic option
    -Wouldn’t say this. Your country is quite big and has almost no inhabitants so there is plenty of space for wind energy options.

    Wrong again. We have several foreigners in our office. I am even in same workgroup with some of them.
    -I am happy that I am not one of them.

    THESE guys have good work quality though. They are professoinals hired for skills, not because they are cheap.
    -Who said that I am cheap? I get plenty of job offers here. And I am quite sure that those foreigners who are working with you get a lower salary than you get.

  26. xyz

    The other point why I think there is something wrong with you is that

    First you write:
    “Because of POOR QUALITY OF WORK!
    Immigrant efficiency equals poor quality.”

    and then

    “We have several foreigners in our office. I am even in same workgroup with some of them. THESE guys have good work quality though. They are professoinals hired for skills, not because they are cheap.”

    Doesn’t really make sense, hm?

    • Enrique

      xyz, I think that Tiwaz doesn’t have a clue about what immigration is. He only sees it as a threat.

  27. xyz

    Enrique, I think people like Tiwaz need to experience themselves how it is to be an immigrant in order to understand it.

  28. Tiwaz

    -“Doesn’t really make sense, hm?”

    It makes perfect sense.

    Out of all the people who want to come here, only handful have set of skills which right away makes them easily employed.

    Out of the rest, huge number have little to no useful skills to contribute.

    However, this mass of failures, instead of learning skills needed in this society whine how society is unfair for not appeasing their pathetic skillsets.

    Instead of setting about to learn and improve themselves or just leaving, they keep whining.
    And then comes Enriqe and encourages them, telling how their whining is based on valid reasons.

    IT IS NOT! If you are not employed, you have lacking skills. Work with your skills and STUDY.

    Oh but that would mean immigrants would have to take responsibility for themselves. We can’t have that can we?

    -“I think that Tiwaz doesn’t have a clue about what immigration is. He only sees it as a threat.”

    I have good clue what immigration is. Restricted, quality based immigration is good and improves nation.

    Immigration as it is and as you multiculturalists want it to be, is route to disaster.

  29. xyz

    IT IS NOT! If you are not employed, you have lacking skills. Work with your skills and STUDY.
    -I am employed…but not in Finland. I am still studying Finnish here in Ireland. If they don’t want to give me a proper job in Finland then I have to flip burgers if I want to live there with my Fiancee.

    I have good clue what immigration is. Restricted, quality based immigration is good and improves nation.
    -You have never been an immigrant so you don’t know anything.

    And again this attitude of you says everything:
    “Because of POOR QUALITY OF WORK!
    Immigrant efficiency equals poor quality.”

  30. JusticeDemon

    JD:

    The cultural differences between the various regions of Finland and especially between urban and rural communities are far greater than most cultural disparities arising from immigration.”

    Tiwaz, June 29, 2010 at 4:43 amThis just shows you don’t know jack shit about Finnish communities, yet you think you are in position to start educating us Finns about them.

    How much of Ođđasat can you understand, Tiwaz?

    How much could you contribute to a meeting of Muddusjärven Paliskunta? I am willing to bet that the local ultranationalist Sami counterpart of Tiwaz would soon be calling you an idiot for not understanding the most basic elements of the local Finnish culture.

    Go on – tell us it’s not Finnish. I dare you.

    A Kola Sami with a Russian passport, by contrast, would feel almost at home.

    You are not alone in your silliness, Tiwaz. The French government has been ridiculed at the European Union for many years because of its traditional insistence, in the teeth of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that France is a monocultural country with no regional diversity.

    In Finland, by contrast, we celebrate that diversity, and we recognise that there is considerable scope for Finnish ethnographers to pursue their discipline without ever leaving Finland. We also invest public funds in research of this kind. Tricky to justify when we have experts like Tiwaz assuring us that there is no cultural diversity in Finland.

  31. Tiwaz

    -“Well I had a different attitude towards Finland when I came there 4 years ago. However, if you always get rejections there and get to hear that they can’t hire foreigners then I am better off somewhere else.”

    Maybe you should have skills which would be useful in Finland for a foreigner?

    -“Well if he wants to live there then it’s his joice. Most likely nobody applied for this job that’s why he got it.”

    He still got a job. Besides, it is for company wanting to expand their customerbase abroad so he was actually just right guy in right place in right time.

    -“Why? Because I don’t say Finland is great? Why should I live there if I have better options in other countries?”

    Because you cannot accept that you failing had more to do with YOU than Finland. Instead of accepting your own flaws you start racist comments on how Finland is horrible etc etc.

    -“Yeah and in other countries employees do not cost money and they are all lazy. ”

    They cost less because living costs are lower.
    Or social security benefits.

    Or they have pulled something as idiotic as Greece and tried to pretend they can borrow their way to success and then borrow their way out of debt.

    -“Wouldn’t say this. Your country is quite big and has almost no inhabitants so there is plenty of space for wind energy options.”

    You clearly have no clue… Wind energy requires…

    Wind!

    Finland has limited amount of areas where average wind amount would justify building wind based energy production. And even those areas have horrible output.

    It is called laws of physics. If there is no wind, wind turbine does not turn. If it does not turn, there is no energy.

    Add to this little detail of wind turbines working even less efficienty during winter (they use energy to heat the components to prevent freezing) we have useless method of energy production.

    -“Who said that I am cheap? I get plenty of job offers here. And I am quite sure that those foreigners who are working with you get a lower salary than you get.”

    Yeah, plenty of offers there. Remind me again, what were the official languages of Ireland?
    Oh, and remind me how Ireland became such “European Tiger”.. Namely, who paid it?

    And based on your texts, whatever they pay you… You are getting way too much.

  32. Tiwaz

    -“How much could you contribute to a meeting of Muddusjärven Paliskunta? I am willing to bet that the local ultranationalist Sami counterpart of Tiwaz would soon be calling you an idiot for not understanding the most basic elements of the local Finnish culture.”

    You apparently do not grasp that Sami culture is not same as Finnish culture. They do not expect to have multicultural society where they could go Sami anywhere. They accept that when they leave their little community, they adjust to Finnish society.

    And since they are perfectly aware of Finnish culture and language, they can do this.

    It is true that majority of Finns do not speak Sami, but Sami speak Finnish.

    Sami are fine example of minority having it’s way of life protected, but NOT at the cost of majority. Sami minority, when leaving their community, adjust to Finnish majority. As the way should be.

    Also, Sami culture has been adjusted to Finnish society. Or could you show me Sami traditions which conflict with Finnish culture?

    To put it more simply… Which habits/traditions/values of Sami are such that in Finnish culture they would be considered unacceptable?

    You have to dig long and hard to find any.
    Sami have done what every cultural group wanting to succeed in Finland must do. Adjust their culture to fit into Finnish cultural framework.

    As I have repeatedly said.

    If Finnish culture denies it, it is denied regardless of what your culture says.
    If Finnish culture expects it, it is expected no matter what your culture says.
    If Finnish culture allows it, it is allowed no matter what your culture says.
    If Finnish culture has no stance on it, do whatever you please.

  33. xyz

    Also, Sami culture has been adjusted to Finnish society. Or could you show me Sami traditions which conflict with Finnish culture?
    -There is just a slight difference. Sami have lived in Finland for centuries (or even before the Tiwaz Finns came to Finland). You can not compare them with 1st generation immigrants.

  34. xyz

    Because you cannot accept that you failing had more to do with YOU than Finland. Instead of accepting your own flaws you start racist comments on how Finland is horrible etc etc.
    -Well the answer to this came actually by yourself:
    “Because of POOR QUALITY OF WORK!
    Immigrant efficiency equals poor quality.

  35. JusticeDemon

    The cultural differences between the various regions of Finland and especially between urban and rural communities are far greater than most cultural disparities arising from immigration.This leaves Wille Rydman in an invidious position when it comes to explaining the precise content and intended consequences of his observation that valtion ei pitäisi tukea eikä rajoittaa kenenkään kulttuuri identiteettiä. Considerable direct and indirect public subsidies currently support the cultural identities of millions of people in Finland. I mentioned Ođđasat as a particularly prominent example of this, but it is by no means the most costly subsidy of its kind.

    This just shows you don’t know jack shit about Finnish communities, yet you think you are in position to start educating us Finns about them.

    How much of Ođđasat can you understand, Tiwaz?How much could you contribute to a meeting of Muddusjärven Paliskunta? I am willing to bet that the local ultranationalist Sami counterpart of Tiwaz would soon be calling you an idiot for not understanding the most basic elements of the local Finnish culture.Go on – tell us it’s not Finnish. I dare you.A Kola Sami with a Russian passport, by contrast, would feel almost at home.

    You apparently do not grasp that Sami culture is not same as Finnish culture. They do not expect to have multicultural society where they could go Sami anywhere. They accept that when they leave their little community, they adjust to Finnish society.And since they are perfectly aware of Finnish culture and language, they can do this.It is true that majority of Finns do not speak Sami, but Sami speak Finnish.Sami are fine example of minority having its way of life protected, but NOT at the cost of majority. Sami minority, when leaving their community, adjust to Finnish majority. As the way should be.

    It is precisely the point that Sami culture is not same as Finnish culture that makes Finland a multicultural country in demographic terms. Sami public broadcasting illustrates the point that Finland is also a multicultural country in terms of public policy. The cultural difference here is so considerable that most people in Finland cannot understand the Sami language and have only the most general understanding of the Sami way of life. That cultural difference is already much greater than the cultural difference between a British immigrant IT specialist and her Finnish colleagues in Espoo. It is a trivial example of my original point that the cultural differences between the various regions of Finland and especially between urban and rural communities are far greater than most cultural disparities arising from immigration. When Wille Rydman says that valtion ei pitäisi tukea eikä rajoittaa kenenkään kulttuuri identiteettiä, he is objecting to the subsidy granted to Sami public broadcasting. That subsidy is collected in TV licence fees from everyone with a television receiver in Finland, which rather gives the lie to your argument that the Sami way of life is not protected at the expense of the majority.

    Also, Sami culture has been adjusted to Finnish society. Or could you show me Sami traditions which conflict with Finnish culture?To put it more simply … Which habits/traditions/values of Sami are such that in Finnish culture they would be considered unacceptable?You have to dig long and hard to find any.Sami have done what every cultural group wanting to succeed in Finland must do. Adjust their culture to fit into Finnish cultural framework.

    You are spectacularly ignorant of the most important ongoing dispute concerning Finland at the UN Human Rights Committee. Take a look at this judgement.
    Then do some serious reading and get back to us.

  36. Tiwaz

    -“There is just a slight difference. Sami have lived in Finland for centuries (or even before the Tiwaz Finns came to Finland). You can not compare them with 1st generation immigrants.”

    Actually, incorrect. That is old theory. Really old.
    Current consensus is that ancestors of Finns have lived in area of Finland since…

    Last Ice Age. Or more precisely, after ice retreated. So unless Sami have been frozen in ice or lived on top of huge pile of ice, they cannot be earlier arrivals.

    As for Sami having lived here long time. You are correct. They have lived here long time. And for very long time they have been under rule of Finns. And they have adjusted to living that way.

    -“The cultural difference here is so considerable that most people in Finland cannot understand the Sami language and have only the most general understanding of the Sami way of life. That cultural difference is already much greater than the cultural difference between a British immigrant IT specialist and her Finnish colleagues in Espoo.”

    Bullshit.

    Take random immigrant from Middle East and compare them to random Finn and difference is far more massive than anything Finns and Sami have.

    Or take native British immigrant coming to Finland and random Sami. Still Finns are much closer to Sami than Briton culturally. Because Sami can interact through Finnish culture, Brit cannot until they learn language and culture.

    -“It is a trivial example of my original point that the cultural differences between the various regions of Finland and especially between urban and rural communities are far greater than most cultural disparities arising from immigration.”

    It is example of someone who has little to no grasp of true depth and meaning of Finnish culture. Or Sami culture.

    You look at Finnish culture from outside, unable to see the complexities of it’s workings and based on this assume that it is similar to British.

    To give you an analogy. You look at two sedans with liftback, and compare them to one hatchback. Then you presume that sedans are more alike than sedan and hatchback, but fail to take into account the internal workings.

    Size of engines, type of transmission, fuel. HUGE amount of things which cannot be seen from outside.

    And again, as said, Sami are perfectly capable of interacting with Finns according to Finnish cultural norms. And shock and horror, THEY DO SO!
    They do not expect Finns to treat them according to Sami cultural norms, but accept principles of majority culture as the norm of the land and act accordingly.

    Same I expect from every immigrant. Leave your cultural baggage behind if you cannot keep it out of the way. If you can, then do so.

    In Rome, do as Romans do. Do not presume Romans to adapt to your culture.

    -“You are spectacularly ignorant of the most important ongoing dispute concerning Finland at the UN Human Rights Committee. Take a look at ”

    Only part which has any point there is that ownership issue on those territories should be sorted out immediately. After that, owners should be free to do as they please (within law).

    So while this does touch valid issue, issue is one of unclear ownership and nothing else. It does not even touch any conflict between Finnish and Sami culture.

  37. JusticeDemon

    There is something oddly comical about the squeaky little Finn shouting about a people under the rule of Finns (Finnish imperialism – **LOL**), but it also illustrates your world view, Tiwaz. You think that violence can bring a durable solution to human relations. You view culture in terms of domination and subjugation. The general tone of your posts reflects this continually and YES, I am analysing you.

    My original point remains. A Kola Sami with a Russian passport would be an immigrant in Angeli. That immigrant could immediately take a job in reindeer husbandry and contribute positively to the work of the Paliskunta in a way that Tiwaz, with her Finnish passport, could not even imagine, because Tiwaz expects the Paliskunta to relate to her in Finnish and according to her cultural norms (she is the Mistress in her own land, after all). Tiwaz wouldn’t last a day in reindeer herding.

    Tiwaz is saying that the cultural disparity between herself and the members of the Paliskunta is smaller than the cultural disparity between those members and a Sami immigrant from the Kola Peninsula, simply because Tiwaz has a Finnish passport and many Sami can speak her language.

    You didn’t read the reference that I gave you to the HRC decision. It’s not about ownership at all. How much do you know about reindeer husbandry, Tiwaz? Can you explain where the specific conflict arises between the policies of the Finnish government and the cultural rights of the Sami? Didn’t think so.

    • Enrique

      Hi JusticeDemon, very well said on how Tiwaz’ view of things. Those kind of ideas that he has are the tinderbox that will send Europe on the rampage again.

  38. Tiwaz

    -“Hi JusticeDemon, very well said on how Tiwaz’ view of things. Those kind of ideas that he has are the tinderbox that will send Europe on the rampage again.”

    How about looking at what you suggest. You are one who wants to create the dividing lines into societies to enable the wars.

    Wars require division. Multiculturalism is all about dividing people. In essence, it is about making more wars through trying to prevent unified societies.

    -“You view culture in terms of domination and subjugation. The general tone of your posts reflects this continually and YES, I am analysing you.”

    You should leave analysing to people with brains.
    Yes, I view culture through dominance. Because that is what culture is. Cultures ALWAYS seek to dominate, because not trying to do so means committing suicide.

    Only idiot thinks that culture which does not try to impose itself to it’s surroundings has hope of survival.

    Read history.

    -“A Kola Sami with a Russian passport would be an immigrant in Angeli. That immigrant could immediately take a job in reindeer husbandry and contribute positively to the work of the Paliskunta in a way that Tiwaz, with her Finnish passport, could not even imagine, because Tiwaz expects the Paliskunta to relate to her in Finnish and according to her cultural norms (she is the Mistress in her own land, after all). Tiwaz wouldn’t last a day in reindeer herding.”

    Listen little girl, I come from family which has been in farming and forestry for ages. I am quite familiar with actual labor.

    But I agree, to a point. Reindeer herder would be better reindeer herder than I am.
    But how about you? You little pussy wouldn’t last an hour when we took you away from your comfortable little cubicle.

    So where is your foreigner superiority now? You lack all the skills even more thoroughly girl.

    JD could not handle herself in the “wild” even if it was just a park in HKI region!

    And indeed, most Sami would relate more to me than someone from Russia.

    Because Russian from Kola-peninsula would be adjusted to Russian system, Finnish Sami would be familiar with Finnish one.

    Amusingly, Finnish Sami tend to prefer being in contact with their Swedish and Norwegian counterparts…

    Imagine that.

  39. Tiwaz

    Actually, are you aware that Sami from Kola peninsula most likely cannot communicate with Finnish Sami?

    You didn’t? Well, there goes your theory down to the bin.

    And again, point is not that Sami have their own little cultural traditions.

    Point is, they do not conflict with Finnish. That was the point I made and point you have failed to debuke.

    Finnish Sami have integrated and adjusted to be able to live in Finnish society. Their culture does not conflict with Finnish.

    That is all I have ever told foreigners who want to immigrate to do. Cut off from their culture everything which conflicts with Finnish culture.

  40. Tiwaz

    Oh yes, and are those 4/5th of Sami who have nothing to do with reindeer herding (and for most of remaining 1/5th reindeers are not main source of income) what?

    Non-Sami Sami?

    Since you draw cultural line at being able to work in reindeer herding. It appears I have much more in common with Sami than you even thought! Me and 80% of Sami have nothing to do with reindeers!

    But we CAN discuss fluently in… Finnish. And we can interact successfully through… Finnish culture!

    Imagine that! Sami have adjusted to Finnish society so well they can act all Finnish!

  41. JusticeDemon

    We can only assume that you have not yet read the reports of the UN Human Rights Committee, which most certainly did recognise a cultural conflict with economic consequences.

    However, Tiwaz, you are trying to change the subject, which was the remarks of Wille Rydman. These remarks failed to recognise the immense cultural diversity that exists within Finland and has nothing to do with immigration.

  42. Tiwaz

    UN human rights committee?
    One filled with people from places with such impeccable human rights record like Tunisia, Morocco etc?

    There is no cultural conflict. Owner of land has right to log or not to log the land. Only thing required is sorting out the ownership of land.

    If it is not property of Sami, then they can start discussions on purchase of said land.

    And I am not changing it anywhere. Any cultural diversity in Finland is compatible with Finnish culture.

    You have failed to present ANY cultural conflict between Finnish culture and Sami culture. All you have is pitiful case where lack of clear ownership causes conflict between two methods of economical use of same area.

  43. JusticeDemon

    What a silly ad hominem that was. Are there any determinations of the UNHRC that you consider legally incorrect, Tiwaz?

    As I recall, there was also one Finnish member of the UNHRC serving when the Committee last discussed issues arising from the rights of the Sami as an indigenous people, although obviously professor Scheinin could not be involved in reaching the final determination.

    As I pointed out before, these issues have nothing to do with ownership. By your reasoning, Tiwaz, you would have to buy the Earth’s atmosphere in order to enjoy the right to breathe.

    You obviously have no idea of the issues that have arisen between the Finnish government and Sami reindeer herders, who are only seeking to continue a way of life that they have practiced for thousands of years. What is your solution to the problem of winter grazing arising from the felling of old-growth forest?

    No, don’t bother – you haven’t got the nous.

  44. Tiwaz

    -“As I pointed out before, these issues have nothing to do with ownership. By your reasoning, Tiwaz, you would have to buy the Earth’s atmosphere in order to enjoy the right to breathe.”

    Read your own material again. It has nothing to do with culture, it has everything to do with decision to perform logging in area which Sami consider to be important reindeer herding area.

    Whole issue of conflict is ownership of area. If Sami own it, nobody has right to demand logging it.
    If Sami do not own it, they have no right to overrule owner logging it.

    -“You obviously have no idea of the issues that have arisen between the Finnish government and Sami reindeer herders, who are only seeking to continue a way of life that they have practiced for thousands of years. What is your solution to the problem of winter grazing arising from the felling of old-growth forest?”

    And here you again speak bullshit. Reindeer herding is extremely recent event. Only started around 16th century. There we have guy who has no clue of what he talks but pretends to be expert. Go educate yourself before coming to talk to your betters.

    My solution is sorting out ownership. If Sami are not rightful owners of area, they should offer owner proper compensation and this way either obtain right to continue grazing or buying it.

    Their “right to culture” does not overrule right of others to their property.

    You clearly haven’t got a clue what you are speaking of. You just try to pretend it is cultural issue when it is not.

    Where here is cultural conflict involved? Hmm?

    Specially considering this part:
    “4.3 On the other hand, a group of Sami forestry officials from the Inari area who earn their living from forestry and wood economy, by submission of 29 November 1995 addressed to the Committee, contend that forestry as practised today does not hamper reindeer husbandry, and that both reindeer husbandry and forestry can be practised simultaneously in the same areas. This assessment was confirmed by the Supreme Court of Finland in a judgment of 22 June 1995. If forestry activities in the Inari area were to be forbidden, Sami groups practising two different professions would be subject to unequal treatment.”

    SAMI forestry officials. Clearly they do not feel their culture to be in danger or conflict here.

    By the way, for those who do not bother to read that drivel…

    Council found against Sami in that issue.

  45. JusticeDemon

    I prefer to begin with the victim’s view of cultural oppression most particularly because culture incorporates an irreducibly intensional aspect. It can only be wholly described and appreciated from within.

    To that end, I would begin with the stated position of the Sami Council on these questions. You will find it here.

    Nobody has suggested that commercial forestry forms part of the traditional way of life of the Sami.

    For a good general account of the human rights dimension in the conflict between the Sami and the governments of Finland, Norway and Sweden, check out this link.

    For the purposes of the present discussion on cultural diversity in Finland, all that matters is that the Human Rights Committee considered the Sami petitions admissible. The Finnish government also accepts that there is a genuine issue to address, and AFAIK no political party in Finland has ever disputed this. You are in a minority of one in arguing that there is no cultural conflict here, Tiwaz.

    In very concrete terms, it comes down to whether ANY landowner is entitled to engage in mechanical forestry in old-growth forests. Leaving aside the obvious damage to biodiversity that is caused by such behaviour, Sami reindeer herders have objected that these forests provide essential lichen pastures for reindeer that are accessible in winter, and peaceful surroundings for foaling. The impact on traditional reindeer husbandry of mechanical forestry in old-growth forests was accordingly acknowledged by the UNHRC.

    One radical solution to these questions might be to protect the entire Nordic reindeer roaming area under the Natura programme of the European Union, with traditional Sami reindeer husbandry recognised as an acceptable activity within the Natura areas.

    Section 17 of the Constitution of Finland recognises the cultural rights of the Sami as an indigenous people. Section 1 of the Sami Language Act (no. 1086 of 2003) reads as follows:

    Tämän lain tarkoituksena on osaltaan turvata perustuslaissa säädetty saamelaisten oikeus ylläpitää ja kehittää omaa kieltään ja kulttuuriaan.

    Tässä laissa säädetään saamelaisten oikeudesta käyttää omaa kieltään tuomioistuimessa ja muussa viranomaisessa sekä julkisen vallan velvollisuuksista toteuttaa ja edistää saamelaisten kielellisiä oikeuksia.

    Tavoitteena on, että saamelaisten oikeus oikeudenmukaiseen oikeudenkäyntiin ja hyvään hallintoon taataan kielestä riippumatta sekä että saamelaisten kielelliset oikeudet toteutetaan ilman, että niihin tarvitsee erikseen vedota.

    This is the background to my earlier reference to Ođđasat and the associated public subsidy that Rydman evidently opposes. It has nothing to do with immigration.

    By your reasoning concerning the Sami, Tiwaz, the Russification of Finland in the late 19th and early 20th century was a fully justified policy and it was quite reasonable to require the Finns to use Russian at that time in return for enjoying full civic status. The Moscow equivalent of Tiwaz would have called you an idiot for not recognising the wisdom of conforming to the rule of the majority.

    Anyway, Tiwaz doesn’t sound very Finnish. How can we be sure you aren’t some kind of fifth columnist?

  46. Tiwaz

    -“I prefer to begin with the victim’s view of cultural oppression most particularly because culture incorporates an irreducibly intensional aspect. It can only be wholly described and appreciated from within.”

    Issue there is that victims will see their culture in the most beneficial way possible for themselves in situations like this.

    Not objectively.

    -“In very concrete terms, it comes down to whether ANY landowner is entitled to engage in mechanical forestry in old-growth forests.”

    Which is another issue.

    -“Leaving aside the obvious damage to biodiversity that is caused by such behaviour, Sami reindeer herders have objected that these forests provide essential lichen pastures for reindeer that are accessible in winter, and peaceful surroundings for foaling. The impact on traditional reindeer husbandry of mechanical forestry in old-growth forests was accordingly acknowledged by the UNHRC.”

    And if these areas are vital for their reindeer herding, they should be made to pay sufficient compensation for loss of profits to owner of the land.

    Else this is just criminal theft where herders use property of someone else, denying owner right to use it and offer no compensation for losses suffered by owner.

    That is what everyone else has to do if they wish to use lands of others for some purpose.
    Power companies must give compensation for land lost to powerlines.

    If Sami were told to shovel up the cash to compensate, it would most likely suddenly cause them to re-evaluate how critical those areas really are.

    It is easy to declare someone elses property “vital to your culture” if you are not expected to pay for it’s use.

    By the way, why I have not seen you explain to Enrique that he is being rather blind when he keeps pushing his “cultures are not that different”-agenda?

    Double standards? The bread and butter of multiculturalist.

    -“By your reasoning concerning the Sami, Tiwaz, the Russification of Finland in the late 19th and early 20th century was a fully justified policy and it was quite reasonable to require the Finns to use Russian at that time in return for enjoying full civic status. The Moscow equivalent of Tiwaz would have called you an idiot for not recognising the wisdom of conforming to the rule of the majority.”

    Sami are free to campaign for their own independence, if they are unhappy with situations. That is what Finns did.

  47. JusticeDemon

    The Sami are a recognised indigenous population and northern Lapland is the natural habitat of reindeer. Protecting the reindeer habitat by ensuring conditions for foaling and winter feeding coincides with protecting the traditional way of life of an indigenous population.

    The notion that land “ownership” implies some right to damage the natural habitat of a species and the way of life of an indigenous population is taken straight from the programme for the Native American genocide.

    Sami are free to campaign for their own independence, if they are unhappy with situations. That is what Finns did.

    But while doing so, they should conform their culture to the Finnish majority, eh?

    What campaign measures would you recommend, Tiwaz? How, exactly, did the Finns campaign? Did they conform their culture to the Russian majority?

    ***

    Culture is irreducibly subjective, but this does not mean that cultural values are unreal.

    There are important common features that all cultures possess. Survival is one of the most obvious of these. It’s almost a tautology to say that any living culture that we can encounter is a survivor culture and deserves respect for the features that make this so.

  48. Tiwaz

    -“The Sami are a recognised indigenous population and northern Lapland is the natural habitat of reindeer. Protecting the reindeer habitat by ensuring conditions for foaling and winter feeding coincides with protecting the traditional way of life of an indigenous population.

    The notion that land “ownership” implies some right to damage the natural habitat of a species and the way of life of an indigenous population is taken straight from the programme for the Native American genocide.”

    As UN decided, no permanent or critical damage was done to natural habitat of species.

    And as stated, rights of indigenous population must never overrule rights of others to their property.

    Sami are free to make arrangements which ensure their continuing use of areas required for their way of life. But they must be prepared to compensate losses caused to others if they use property of others or prevent others from using their property.

    If they are not willing to grant compensation, they better start looking for ways to come to agreement with owner in other ways or find foaling/winterfeeding areas which they DO own.

    Finns are indigenous people of Finland as well. How would YOU feel if we told you that in name of practicing our culture we must come to your house, drive you out and give no compensation?

    -“But while doing so, they should conform their culture to the Finnish majority, eh?

    What campaign measures would you recommend, Tiwaz? How, exactly, did the Finns campaign? Did they conform their culture to the Russian majority?”

    Comparison of Sami and Finland with Russia is apples and oranges.

    For one, Sami already have conformed their culture to Finnish one. They can slip into Finnish community without any problems. They are fully assimilated, what distinct culture they have, is not conflicting with Finnish culture.

    -“There are important common features that all cultures possess. Survival is one of the most obvious of these. It’s almost a tautology to say that any living culture that we can encounter is a survivor culture and deserves respect for the features that make this so.”

    Culture is survivor only if it can prevent other cultures from taking it’s place. That is why multiculturalism is so idiotic practice.

    In west, where this stupidity is practiced, it is used as a means to replace local native culture with imported cultures from, for example, Africa and Middle East. Cultures with radically different and conflicting values.

    Sami culture has survived, but large part of their survival comes from accepting that they have to be able to live in dominant culture on dominant cultures rules.
    Because of that, nobody has anything against them.
    Same can be said of Finnish tatars and jews. Both preserve their culture while accepting that Finnish culture is the law of the land.

    • Enrique

      –Finns are indigenous people of Finland as well. How would YOU feel if we told you that in name of practicing our culture we must come to your house, drive you out and give no compensation?

      Sorry, Tiwaz, this is a bunch of phony boloney. This view that we are “indigenous” is only an expression of extreme ethnocentrism mixed with funny views of culture and Otherness. Give me a break. People in Finland who take these view are culturally challenged. They see themselves so threatened that they feel “indigenous.”

    • Enrique

      –Culture is survivor only if it can prevent other cultures from taking it’s place. That is why multiculturalism is so idiotic practice.

      That’s fine. You can go on believing your fairy tales if you wish and live in denial. Aren’t you sad that you live in this decade and not in the 1930s? The problem is that some in this country still do not know that that decade no longer exists.

  49. Osmo

    -They see themselves so threatened that they feel “indigenous.”

    Finns ARE indigenous to the area between Norway and at least Lake Onega, where traces of their
    existence have been long documented, going back 8,000 years. The oldest fishing net in the world was found near Antrea Karelia, and archeology continues to prove that Finns are indeed indigenous to not only Finland but Europe, where their culture and language has been overlayed by other cultures, leaving the north as the last place where you will find the remnants of these people. You can’t prove Finns are not indigenous, if you can give me the reference.

    Anyway, you are not a Finn and your opinions are not of the Finns. How dare you speak for us.

    • Enrique

      —Anyway, you are not a Finn and your opinions are not of the Finns. How dare you speak for us.

      Osmo, welcome back after a long spell. Sometimes your comments knock me out epecially this one. Have you lived in Finland? Do you speak any Finnish? Where do you arrive at the conclusion that I am not Finnish?

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