Is multiculturalism good for Finland?

by , under All categories, Enrique

One of the surprising matters about the debate on multiculturalism is how little we understand the basic terms. Take for instance the term multicultural. Does it only mean a society comprised physically of many (multi) cultures, or is it  a policy that facilitates the participation of immigrants and  ethnic minorities in a society?

Finland is not officially a multicultural society like Canada, Australia and the United Kingdom, but our laws shows multicultural sensibility (Constitution, Citizenship and Non-Discrimination Act) towards minorities.

What do people mean in Finland when we speak of “multicultural society?” Are we referring to a society comprised physically of many cultures and/or official policy through laws such as the Non-Discrimination Act?

I suspect that it is a bit of the both.

If  we are still pretty much in the dark about what multiculturalism is and implies for Finland, how can we debate the issue effectively?

One of the reasons why some believe that multiculturalism is good for Finland is because there are so few immigrants in this country. It is a bit like being in favor of peace. Everyone will agree that peace is important but when the chips are down and war breaks out, some of us turn into Rambos.

Since multiculturalism (as a policy) has become a hypersensitive political issue during these difficult economic times, I believe that this moment is a better time than ever to discuss inequalities in our society: discrimination, exclusion and unemployment.

The recession in Finland has most likely hardened attitudes against the small immigrant community.

Is multiculturalism as a policy good for Finland?

Answering the question requires us to understand four phases:  immigrants, recognition, acceptance and incorporation into society. We are probably entering the second phase (recognition) in Finland.

Even though integration in global markets is vital to Finland’s survival and success as a country, over 20% immigrant unemployment nationally reveals a lot about the role of these people in this country. How can society benefit from newcomers  if exceptionally high unemployment continues to be an issue?  How are our “multicultural sensible” policies promoting greater incorporation of some minorities in society?

Is multiculturalism good for Finland?

Probably the question should be turned around: Is Finland ready for multiculturalism?

  1. Tiwaz

    “Answering the question requires us to understand four phases: immigrants, recognition, acceptance and incorporation into society. We are probably entering the second phase (recognition) in Finland.”

    No, you are again assuming things must work the way YOU want them. Finland already has all those things. Problem are the immigrants. They do not want to accept that when you change country, you have to change your attitude as well.

    You cannot presume that you can keep going like you would in some Hattiwattiland in Finland. You cannot presume that showing some utility bills and foreign driver’s license would be replacement for proper ID-card.

    Those things might work somewhere in underdeveloped world, but in Finland they do not.

    Immigrants must learn to adjust their acting and expectations to realities of society they live in, not presume that they are center of the world and society will change to fit them.


    Even though integration in global markets is vital to Finland’s survival and success as a country, over 20% immigrant unemployment nationally reveals a lot about the role of these people in this country. How can society benefit from newcomers if exceptionally high unemployment continues to be an issue? How are our “multicultural sensible” policies promoting greater incorporation of some minorities in society?”

    Again you fail to go to details. You always come up with your “20% of immigrants are unemployed because Finns are evil racists for else they would have jobs”-argument… It has been shot down time and time again but here goes again…

    IT IS NOT FAULT OF FINNS THAT IMMIGRANTS DO NOT HAVE SKILLS REQUIRED IN FINNISH WORKLIFE.

    There is 0 need for illiterate Somalian goatherders who cannot speak Finnish in Finland.

    To be employed, things you can do must be worth the money going to paying your salary. Mentioned Somalian guy has no skills which could justify paying anything to him. It is HIS duty to learn skills which are useful in Finland.

    Not duty for Finns to hire him to move staplers from pile A to pile B and then another Somali to move them from pile B back to pile A.

    Or give jobs to people who have no qualifications or skills to do the job.

    Or perhaps you Enrique would like to go to heart bypass surgery where all surgery staff will be gathered from those illiterate, unskilled and language limited immigrants. Because they just have to get a job.

    Or perhaps you would like to put your children into taxi driven by guy who has no grasp of what he is doing?

    Finnish job environment can be summed up in three words:

    SKILLS, EDUCATION, EXPERIENCE.

    Your immigrants are woefully lacking in all three in fields which actually matter in Finland. They might be great goatherders, but there is no employment herding goats in Finland.


    Is multiculturalism good for Finland?

    Probably the question should be turned around: Is Finland ready for multiculturalism?”

    No it should not be turned around. Because we have evidence abroad how multiculturalism is never good for nation.

    Your examples of Britain, Canada and Australia just underline it.
    No country can ever be “ready for multiculturalism”. It is just shoved down the throats of people by those who are ideologically blinded or else distanced from reality.

  2. alex

    The multiculturalism is not good for Finland.Immigrants must accept Finnish culture,langwich and tradition.Look on Franc,England or Italy for example.There are Junkyard countrys.

    • Enrique

      Hi Alex, what about Russia. You have lots of different cultures and languages. Was it difficult to grow up in such a physically multicultural country?

  3. alex

    Hi Enrigue,I can’t say nothing about Russia.I know a lot about USSR.People from former Soviet Republics do not like Russians.Reason is Russian mentality.I live in Stats and keep myself as far as possible from Russians.Do you wont have gypsys tabor on you backyard or muslims women cover with burka will you neighbors.And wot you think, why owner of motel in Salla Findland ask us are you Russian and after we show our documents gave us a key.She was absolutely right.She don’t like sifts.

  4. Mateus

    “Finnish job environment can be summed up in three words: SKILLS, EDUCATION, EXPERIENCE”

    But what you fail to see is that this “Finnish job environment” is doomed. As far as I can tell, Suomi’s economic prospects are dark and bleak. Finland needs more agressive economic policies. (Don’t you agree?)

    Any change will inevitably lead to exploiting cheaper labor-force from abroad.

    • Enrique

      Hi Mateus, great to hear from after such a long time. You bring an interesting point: Will Finland take advantage of cheap labor and what will it imply for the unions? If I remember correctly, about 70% of Finnish employees belong to a union, which is very high. If you ask me, one of the biggest questions also facing Finland is how to continue financing the welfare state with an ever-graying population. If this isn’t corrected it means lowering one’s liing standards.

  5. DeTant Blomhat

    “Multiculturalism” means different groups with different sets of rules in a society. By definition “multiculturalism” means that as the Brits drive their car on the left hand side of the road, they can do so in Finland because its their “culture”. That would then cause a lot of crashes – that is why “multiculturalism” means dysfunctional society. Yes – the different enclaves might function, but they form then their own little ghetto societies as we can see of the places police and fire departments have no-go areas. Instead of “multiculturalism” we need common rules, equality and universal suffrage.

    • Enrique

      –“Multiculturalism” means different groups with different sets of rules in a society. By definition “multiculturalism” means that as the Brits drive their car on the left hand side of the road, they can do so in Finland because its their “culture”. That would then cause a lot of crashes – that is why “multiculturalism” means dysfunctional society.

      Thank you for attempting to understand what multiculturalism is. It has different interpretations but basically it is the antithesis of assimilation and a distant relative of integration. It is all about using public space as well. Are societies so mature that they can create such societies without falling over and succumbing to the drug of nationalism?

  6. DeTant Blomhat

    Oh and “nationalism” isn’t that exactly what “multiculturalism” is? Best example today are US military bases. They are “little USA” transplanted. Those are the most prime examples of actually functioning multiculturalism.

  7. Tiwaz

    -“But what you fail to see is that this “Finnish job environment” is doomed. As far as I can tell, Suomi’s economic prospects are dark and bleak. Finland needs more agressive economic policies. (Don’t you agree?)

    Any change will inevitably lead to exploiting cheaper labor-force from abroad.”

    How it is doomed? And even if it is doomed… How the fuck hiring no-speak, illiterate goatherders from darkest Africa will solve the problem?

    Finland can never compete on global scale on cheap labor. It is just impossible. Our country and population are way too small to enable us to have such huge underclass who could be abused.

    Our only way to succeed is to create high-tech society which handles in business where we compete with quality and level of business where simple Chinese/Indian guy have less advantage from huge and poor population.

    This is not served by import of goatherders who have no skills. This is not served by trying to import multiculturalism here, because specialists we require are in position where they can choose where they want to work. And such people can value safety, stability and good educational opportunities for their offspring above Enrique’s multicultural hellhole.

    -“Thank you for attempting to understand what multiculturalism is. It has different interpretations but basically it is the antithesis of assimilation and a distant relative of integration. It is all about using public space as well. Are societies so mature that they can create such societies without falling over and succumbing to the drug of nationalism?”

    It is antithesis of success.
    There can be no such society you imagine. We humans are pack animals, and pack is pack through identification of common traits and lack of glaring differences.

    It is the most fundamental part of pack instinct. That is why multicultural hellholes are failures and hellholes. They fail to create ONE pack which works together. Instead imagining that you can have all kinds of different packs without them getting to each others throats.

    Look at wolfpacks Enrique. They are much closer to human psyche than we like to admit.

    There is no “mature” society you imagine. Mature society is one with unity and nationalism, because they serve to make pack strong.

    What you imagine is same as saying that if human is “mature” enough, they can fly with sheer willpower. What you desire is impossibility.

    You cannot fly without mechanical aids, it is not possible for human body. Nor can you have multicultural society where different cultures do not bunch with their own kind and then start conflicting with other cultures around them.

  8. Tony Garcia

    “How can society benefit from newcomers if exceptionally high unemployment continues to be an issue? “

    There we go again… Unemployment statistics…

    Enrique my friend some time ago you said that we should analyze the problems, well let’s try do to so, shall we?

    Unemployment statistics have already been used here to support the theory that immigrants in general, and Somalis in particularly, are discriminated in Finland, very well. How do they do in other places like UK. As said here before, UK is the best place to live if you have a dark skin. So life in there should be better, shouldn’t? Let’s have a look.

    I found this study about immigrants in the UK made by channel 4.

    http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches_pdfs/dispatches_immigrants.pdf

    For some reason they left behind crime, I wonder why… Anyway let’s see what they say about Somalis living in the UK.

    Unemployment: Britons 22%, Somalis 81%
    Self-Employed: Britons 13%, Somalis 0%
    Home ownership: Britons 75%, Somalis 4%
    Claiming incoming support: Britons 4%, Somalis 39%
    Claiming child benefit: Britons 14%, Somalis 40%
    Living in social houses: Britons: 17%, Somalis 80%

    So fellas aren’t really doing so well in there are they? How much is UK benefitting from them? Or it’s the other way around?

    How can we believe they will do better here? How can we blame the system?

    • Enrique

      –There we go again… Unemployment statistics…

      Amigo Tony, what do you think is a good way to measure adaption? The figures you showed of the United Kingdom are pretty interesting. Who was your source? It is difficult to believe that there are 0% self-employed Somalis. Why do you think that Somalis appear to be at the lower end of the social totem pole in the UK? Is a person who does not have a country, or comes from one that is a failed nation, suffers the same fate as other “nationless” people such as the Roma?

  9. Tony Garcia

    Also last week HS reported the 10% of prison inmates are foreigners. How much immigrants Finland has? 2.5% isn’t?

    So, how do we analyse this? Do we go to the usual “police/courts are racist”? Or is there another reason?

    • Enrique

      –Also last week HS reported the 10% of prison inmates are foreigners. How much immigrants Finland has? 2.5% isn’t?

      I don’t know if you can compare the both and make a snap conclusion. In the US the majority of prison inmates are black. What does that say about US society?
      Probably if we compared it to other EU countries we could get a rough idea where our 10% figures stands.

    • Enrique

      –Does Finland want multiculturalism?

      I guess one can turn the question around and ask the same question. However, I would ask you what is the most effective way of living in Finland in a society comprised of many cultures? Is it assimilation or integration – or multiculturalism.

  10. Tiwaz

    -“I guess one can turn the question around and ask the same question. However, I would ask you what is the most effective way of living in Finland in a society comprised of many cultures? Is it assimilation or integration – or multiculturalism.”

    Assimilation/integration. Multiculturalism is failure, integration where you do not adjust to terms of host society is also a failure when you have enough people.

    It has been proven time and time again by this world.
    Multiculturalism just does not work.

    If you have enough representatives of one culture/ethnicity, they will seek to form their own little clique where they can pretend they are still living in their country of origin. And as cultures and countries are very different, that drives them to odds with surroundings.

    This in turn leads to confrontation which will inevitably turn ugly.

    -“Why do you think that Somalis appear to be at the lower end of the social totem pole in the UK? Is a person who does not have a country, or comes from one that is a failed nation, suffers the same fate as other “nationless” people such as the Roma?”

    So why they want to cling to culture and society which led to failure of a country they originate from?

    Do you think that if failed system is tried in another country it will miraculously turn into success?

    Somali have to accept that their system is a failure, thus they have to learn to abandon it if they want to get anywhere in other countries.

    As for why there are 0% of Somali self employed in UK, most likely there are few who are not. But they do not represent even 1% of total population. They are so neglible portion of Somali population it does not even matter.

  11. Tony Garcia

    “However, I would ask you what is the most effective way of living in Finland in a society comprised of many cultures?”

    I decided to go myself for integration and I can tell you worked like a charm, and not just for me, I know a score of other immigrants who adapted themselves to Finnish way of life and… Bingo… I said this here many times, didn’t I?

    However for some groups neither multiculturalism or integration will work. The very same group who riot/rape/murder in Sweden or UK (multiculturalism), also do the same in France (integration). For some group only deportation works…

  12. Tony Garcia

    “I don’t know if you can compare the both and make a snap conclusion”

    Really? Don’t we make conclusions based on other kind of statistics? Like unemployment among immigrants?

    And once again the same pattern. If a statistic/news/report/opinion support immigrants it’s believed and accepted, otherwise it’s questioned and pushed aside. Once fairness doesn’t mean be fair that should be OK…

    “In the US the majority of prison inmates are black. What does that say about US society?”

    Don’t know, tell us…

    • Enrique

      –Really? Don’t we make conclusions based on other kind of statistics? Like unemployment among immigrants?

      Do you know if 10% is high compared with other EU countries?

    • Enrique

      –Don’t know, tell us…

      For one, it shows great dysfunctionality and raises a timely question: even though blacks in the US have won recoginition and rights, the same problems that hounded it in the past (prejudice etc) continue to exist. It also shows that if you take a tough stand on breaking the law, all you have at the end of the day are more inmates in prison. Social programmes such as education, equal opportunity etc. are key. Education wll not be the magic bullet that solves all of societies problems but it is a good beginning.

  13. Tony Garcia

    “what do you think is a good way to measure adaption?”

    Unemployment is one of the best, I’m with you on this, however blaming it on discrimination is clearly wrong.

    “Who was your source?”

    Channel 4.

    “Why do you think that Somalis appear to be at the lower end of the social totem pole in the UK?”

    I don’t know, and honestly I don’t care. What I do care though, is when you use their situation to support the theory that Finland discriminate against them. What by know it has been completely debunked. IMHO blaming Finland for their unemployment is not just wrong but also very offensive to the country with gave them house, food, health care, school, etc. All for free…

    • Enrique

      –Channel 4.

      Thanks.I will trace down their sources.

      By addressing an issue like high unemployment we can try to find ways to resolve it. The idea is not to create a polarized situation where we have Finnish and immigrant bashers on either side of the aisle. I wrote a while back that the values that keep Finnish society together should apply for all those who live here. If that were the case in any society, discrimination would suffer a major blow itself.

  14. DeTant Blomhat

    Enrique doesn’t believe in that stupid lazy people should look in the mirror and admit to themselves:
    – I am stupid – maybe I should get education
    – I am lazy – maybe I should get a grip of myself

    Its always someone elses fault. Enrique, look into the mirror. All the discrimination you face you have earned yourself.

    • Enrique

      –Its always someone elses fault. Enrique, look into the mirror. All the discrimination you face you have earned yourself.

      That last sentence is a gem, DeTant. It is the best double-talk I have ever read.

  15. DeTant Blomhat

    Here we go – multiculturalism in action.

    “He who kills a police will go to paradise”

    Finland is better off without multiculturalism, so lets do our best to keep it out.

    • Enrique

      DeTant, I think Hannu posted this video. It is not only a tragedy but shows the failure of society as a whole in dealing with such an issue. I heard that in the neighborhood of Varisuo in Turku that about one third of its population is foreign. Taking into account that there is high unemployment among immigrants, these persons end up in this neighborhood because they are apartments owned by the city. Finns who live there want to move out because they feel threatened, or the NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) syndrome.

      For me, Mälmö shows that even Nordic welfare countries such as Sweden can fail in the task of integrating immigrants.

  16. Jaakko

    Enrique said: ‘Why do you think that Somalis appear to be at the lower end of the social totem pole in the UK? Is a person who does not have a country, or comes from one that is a failed nation, suffers the same fate as other “nationless” people such as the Roma?’

    Even if Somalis don’t have a functioning government, they still do have a country to live in. The Roma don’t have any big area where they live by themselves. Still it is true these groups act somewhat similar in European nations. The Roma have been here for centuries and still live by their own rules in their subculture, don’t educate themselves properly and don’t have jobs. Somalis just arrived but are doing exactly the same thing. You can’t blame the surrounding society for their every difficulty, they should take some responsibility for their own life aswell.

    Unemployment: Britons 22%, Somalis 81%
    Self-Employed: Britons 13%, Somalis 0%

    these numbers show something. If Somalis really wanted to work for a living they would employ themselves. Britain is also a lot more multiculturistic than Finland – why the unemployment rates are almost the same? Rasism isn’t the main reason for this – the way Somalis act is. Same thing is with the Roma, they should become part of the societies they live in and stop unnecessary whining.

    Nowadays you see restaurants held by Kurdish people everywhere – where are Somalian, or Roma restaurants? Why don’t Somalis start businesses? Is it because of the Finnish rasism? The Kurdish are muslim and they don’t have their own country. Still they do something to get jobs instead of crying how multiculturalism doesn’t work in Finland.

  17. Mateus

    “If Somalis really wanted to work for a living they would employ themselves.”

    You bring to light an interesting point: can a given ethnic group be culturally averse to work?

    If so, can that the case of the Somalis in Finland?

  18. Tiwaz

    HOW THE FUCK YOU INTEGRATE SOMEONE WHO IS NOT WILLING TO DO A DAMN THING?

    You blame Sweden, Finland… Anyone and everyone EXCEPT immigrants.

    Yet integration, assimilation, adjustment… Use any word you wish.

    Takes place in the narrow space between the two ears of immigrant. If they do not bother to do the integration, nobody else can do it for them.

    Well, not entirely true. We could arrange re-education camps, brainwash them and reprogram them. But I think you Enrique would whine just as much if we did that and started integrating immigrants that way.

    It is not countries which fail, but immigrants.

    • Enrique

      –It is not countries which fail, but immigrants.

      Ever heard of the word “it takes two to tango?” However, if a society gives scanty possibilities for people to integrate into it, I think it is pretty clear who is to blame.

    • Enrique

      -Self-Employed: Britons 13%, Somalis 0%

      Thank you Kal for looking this one up. The absolute figure of 0% (!) is fishy. How can it be possible that not one Somali is self-employed. If these are the figures aired by Channel 4, they are certainly misleading.

  19. Kal

    -Self-Employed: Britons 13%, Somalis 0%

    The people at Channel 4 clearly state that the 0 figure is not concrete and clearly YOU haven’t visited London to know this figure is NOT concrete:

    http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/server/show/ConNarrative.109/chapterId/2320/The-Somali-Community-in-the-Port-of-London.html

    I wonder why there is an entrepreneurial spirit coming from the Somali community (relatively the same in numbers) in London but not Helsinki?

  20. Tiwaz

    -“Ever heard of the word “it takes two to tango?” However, if a society gives scanty possibilities for people to integrate into it, I think it is pretty clear who is to blame.”

    What opportunities are missing?

    Go on, tell me.

    Who to blame is the immigrant. You have extremely unrealistic view on how to “integrate” people. USA does not “integrate” people at all. It’s sink or swim. It simply is so huge country that there are little ethnic circles for everyone to live with their own kind and try to eke out living.

    Finland offers far more various courses and other opportunities than most nations. Apparently nothing is enough for stupid and lazy immigrants!

    Failure is in immigrant. We can’t provide them with chaperone and translator to walk with them 24/7.

    In Finland we expect people to take responsibility for themselves. Apparently this concept is seriously lacking in most nations since immigrants cannot grasp that they actually have to DO something instead of sitting on their holy little ass and wait for things to be brought to them on silver platter.

    In unemployment office, do you know what their catchphrase for Finnish unemployed is? “YOU are in main part.”

    They tell flat out that it is duty of each and everyone to try to get employment for themselves and not just expect ready meal served for them.

  21. Tony Garcia

    “clearly YOU haven’t visited London to know this figure is NOT concrete:”

    Sorry mate I lived in London for many years before move to Finland. I’ve seen what multiculturalism has done to the place. For Africans or Asian it may be a paradise, for me… *sick*

    After my first week in Pori I looked back to that city and said…

    Multiculturalism, thank you, but no thank you…

    • Enrique

      –Multiculturalism, thank you, but no thank you…

      Hi Tony, our social tastes can really diverge. By multiculturalism do you mean the social policy or the fact that there are many cultures living in London?

  22. Tony Garcia

    “Thank you Kal for looking this one up. The absolute figure of 0% (!)”

    The report says “insufficient data to make estimate that is statistically significant”

    So you got it… It’s not 0%, Tony lied, it’s 0.01% or 0.02%

    So what? What is the blood problems with you guys? Are you that desperate that you need to scrap the bottom of the pan? The reality is there, those people hang on the dole, wherever they go. They do in Finland and they do in the UK.

    Sorry but I, once for all, debunked the theory that their situation in Finland is due discrimination, you guys like it or not…

  23. Tony Garcia

    “The idea is not to create a polarized situation where we have Finnish and immigrant bashers on either side of the aisle.”

    Not, it’s not. The idea is stop blaming the Finns for what they are not responsible for.

  24. Tony Garcia

    “Do you know if 10% is high compared with other EU countries?”

    Not I don’t. What I do know it’s very high for a group with only represent 2.5% of the population. That I know.

    PS. Am I felling the usual “of course police/court are racist in Finland” hidden in your comments?

  25. Tony Garcia

    “For one, it shows great dysfunctionality and raises a timely question: even though blacks in the US have won recoginition and rights, the same problems that hounded it in the past (prejudice etc) continue to exist. It also shows that if you take a tough stand on breaking the law, all you have at the end of the day are more inmates in prison. Social programmes such as education, equal opportunity etc. are key. Education wll not be the magic bullet that solves all of societies problems but it is a good beginning.”

    Sorry but in simple terms this means… “yes blacks commit more crimes than whites in the US”

  26. Tony Garcia

    “You bring to light an interesting point: can a given ethnic group be culturally averse to work? If so, can that the case of the Somalis in Finland?”

    Mateus my friend, let try to explain this to you. This has nothing to do with their ethnic background, but from where they come from. Let me give you an example…

    A friend of my wife works as missionary in Rio. She married a guy in there and a few years ago I met him when they were on holidays in Finland. He was born and spend his entire life in a favela in Rio. He barely knows how to read/write his own name in Portuguese, what you know it’s not uncommon in our country. Last year I got the news that they would move from Rio to Finland, by my calculation he’s about 28 years old.

    Now my friend, tell me, actually tell all of us, Do you think a 28 years old guy, without any education, can’t speak anything but Portuguese, can be a functional member of a highly educated society like Finland? Does he have a good chance to get a good job and provide for his family? Or will he be hanging on the dole? What do you think?

    Somalia, my friend, due many years of war, it’s a big favela. And have you seen the Somali war “children” that goes to Finland? Many, as soon as they get asylum, apply for their wife and children back in Somalia.

    That’s the situation, my friend, many people insist in try to find “reasons” why they don’t do well in Finland, but truth is very simple indeed.

  27. Tony Garcia

    “Hi Tony, our social tastes can really diverge. By multiculturalism do you mean the social policy or the fact that there are many cultures living in London?”

    Amigo Enrique, this is a first class question indeed. Let me put my thoughts together, I’ll reply to you tomorrow.

  28. Kal

    -Sorry mate I lived in London for many years before move to Finland. I’ve seen what multiculturalism has done to the place. For Africans or Asian it may be a paradise, for me… *sick*

    Totally Irrelevant. Did you or didn’t you (in your time in London) see the numerous internet cafes run by self-employed Somalians? YES or NO (mate)!

    BTW some would argue that those economies which are flourishing in our times are those with a just wiff of multiculturalism (e.g. China)…but I guess you don’t want Finland to be in that group.

  29. Kal

    -Hi Tony, our social tastes can really diverge. By multiculturalism do you mean the social policy or the fact that there are many cultures living in London?

    Amigo Enrique, this is a first class question indeed. Let me put my thoughts together, I’ll reply to you tomorrow.

    Why does it need a day for amigo Tony to find the definition of multiculturalism? Interesting.

  30. Tiwaz

    -“BTW some would argue that those economies which are flourishing in our times are those with a just wiff of multiculturalism (e.g. China)…but I guess you don’t want Finland to be in that group.”

    And those some would be utter, absolute idiots. So I hope you are not suggesting that.

    China flourishes, or flourished, with huge population which works in conditions I would not keep my dog in, for salary which is pitiful.

    Furthermore, China is 91+% Han Chinese. It’s “whiff” of multiculturalism is very faint indeed. And out of remaining, two largest minorities are practically assimilated to Han society with very minor differences left if any.

    Those groups which are completely different from Han are limited to arse end of nowhere in extreme regions of China where they play no part at all.

    As for your example on Somalians running Internet Cafe…

    Do you think those Somalians formed at least 1% of total Somalian population of UK?

    100 Internet Cafes run by Somali might sound big, but when you put this into perspective that there are over 80k of them (presumably, unreliable system of UK makes it impossible to have exact numbers) it pales in comparison.

    You clearly either have little understanding of statistics or you deliberately try to hide the truth.

  31. Tony Garcia

    Yep, that’s what we do now… To support multiculturalism we have to go to the absurd of comparing Finland with China. Multiculturalism has done so good there that the people is desperate to run away from it.

    Life quality, human rights, freedom, democracy, are, of course, irrelevant concepts.

    If that’s the price of multiculturalism, I’ll say it again… Thank you, but no thank you…

    • Enrique

      Tony, I understand that you may disagree strongly with multiculturalism as a social policy, but to live in an ethnicly closed society surprises me. Taking into account that you are from Brazil, ethnically multicultural, surprises even more. What you would like to see is a society were all immigrants/foreigners are invisible, or not noticeable because of skin color, and religion. Did I understand correctly what you meant?

  32. Tiwaz

    Now, Enrique, tell me finally what opportunities which are so plentiful everywhere else are missing in Finland?

    What government programs all the rest of the Western world runs which miraculously integrate immigrants which are absent from Finland?

    I really, really want to know, because come next elections I guarantee I will vote for people who tell they will drive such policies.

  33. Kal

    -100 Internet Cafes run by Somali might sound big, but when you put this into perspective that there are over 80k of them (presumably, unreliable system of UK makes it impossible to have exact numbers) it pales in comparison.

    It’s funny how you like to come up numbers out of the thin air LOL. If you can’t provide a link for that ‘100’ internet cafe’s then don’t come up with it at all. At least we can all agree that Channel 4’s statistical result was & is inconclusive, can’t we?

  34. Tony Garcia

    “Did I understand correctly what you meant?”

    No you didn’t. Why are you now bring race to the discussion? As far as I know multiculturalism is about culture not race. There are many white Europeans who have converted to Islam.

    At work I have met some black Americans who probably disagree with multiculturalism more that I do. Nice chaps who would never play the race card, quite different than most Somalis in Finland.

    It’s never been about race, but immigrants insisting in hold on to values completely incompatible with the country they decided to immigrate to. Also about the PC Gestapo with quickly demonizes anyone who dares to say a word against immigrants/minorities, at the same time downplaying everything they do. Halla-aho case for example.

    How many time have we hear about how the “poor” Roma are “discriminated” by Finns? How about the discrimination within the Roma community? HS has reported twice about this, but of course, it doesn’t take longer before someone “explain” that we should have cultural sensitivity when dealing with this issue.

    Muslims can’t, by any means be refused entrance to any place, however they demand their own time at swimming pools. In the UK, at the same time that crosses are banned from schools headscarves are allowed. Christmas holidays are renamed winter holidays and nativity plays cancelled at schools to avoid offend Muslims, however few weeks ago Boris Johnson has urged everyone in London to fast during Ramadan.

    When a gang of blacks beat the crap out a white boy they are called troubled youth, the other way around it’s called a vicious disgusting racist attack.

    When a white boy fails at school it’s because he didn’t try hard enough, when a black fails it’s because the system is racist.

    Well the list goes on and on… Summarizing multiculturalism brings in the old Orwellian say…“We are all equal, but some are more equal than others”

    Other aspect that I disagree completely is that for many people we MUST have black/Asians otherwise we are “loosing”. Well I don’t think so, if they integrate into the society I have no problems with them, however if they are not around I don’t see we are “loosing” anything. For me we don’t HAVE to have them.

    I’ve said this here many times…

    BTW sorry for taking that long to put my thoughts together…

  35. Tiwaz

    -“It’s funny how you like to come up numbers out of the thin air LOL. If you can’t provide a link for that ‘100′ internet cafe’s then don’t come up with it at all. At least we can all agree that Channel 4’s statistical result was & is inconclusive, can’t we?”

    So how many are there? To qualify for ONE percent out of estimated Somali population there would have to be over 800 self employed Somali in UK.

    Are there? Hmm? Do you think your Internet Cafes run by Somali number over 800?

  36. Tony Garcia

    Amigo Enrique, let’s analyze this for a while, shall we?

    http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/artikkeli/Sukupuolierottelua+halutaan+kitke%C3%A4+jo+alakouluissa/1135249691030

    I personally think this a great news. However I wonder…

    How can we pursuit a country free of gender discrimination, and at the same time welcome Muslims to practice their culture with has gender discrimination as one of its cornerstone?

    In Mosques, Islamic schools and Madrasas girls/women have times and places to do their things. Some national schools in the UK, where Muslims have a strong presence, they are demanding, and some achieving, separated swimming and PE classes. Sharia courts are already a reality in the UK, with treats men and women very differently indeed.

    Tell Enrique, how we combine two so different values? Do we allow one part of the society be gender discrimination free and other don’t? You said once that multiculturalism is the best way to protect minorities, well how does it protect Muslim women from discrimination?

  37. DeTant Blomhat

    Hmmm…. but is it so that you can get the kid out of the favela, but you can never get the favela out of the kid?

    It depends I think. My father started in a “Finnish version” of a favela in 1920’s and he had 2 kids into higher education. Its all about perseverance and not background and chances/money.

    • Enrique

      –To all from forum, please listen to what a remarkable immigrant has to say…

      Tony, remember those figures you showed on Somalis? Well, here you have one woman that has succeeded in Western society. So, to those who speak out how “undesireable” Somalis are, I would recommend looking at this person. If you want my honest opinion about this commentator, he does not rank very high in my book. Just like fanatics on the Muslim side, he is no dfferent from out culture byf faning the flames of fear. Do you think that if I put another dress on him, you would have difficulty in understanding that he is a USAmerican?

  38. Tiwaz

    So ONE of them makes it so it MUST mean all thousands upon thousands are also A-OK.

    Enrique, you can’t be so stupid that you would believe that. And you must know we are not stupid enough to understand that few exceptions are not enough to rule whole group based on them.

    One sparrow does not make spring. Finnish proverb.

    • Enrique

      –So ONE of them makes it so it MUST mean all thousands upon thousands are also A-OK.

      Tiwaz, your absolute perpceptions of some ethnic groups as come down in flames. It shows that if human beings are given an opportunity, some can succeed. She sounds level-headed but the commentators that interview do not.

  39. Kal

    Enrique, you need to be careful in allowing Tony/Tiwaz/DeTant Blomhat or whatever aliases it uses free reign to spew their twisted ‘talking points’ and inturn turning your respectable blog into an extension of a the Stormfront site. Think about it. The target group who you intended this blog for are hardly here anymore.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique, you need to be careful in allowing Tony/Tiwaz/DeTant Blomhat or whatever aliases it uses free reign to spew their twisted ‘talking points’ and inturn turning your respectable blog into an extension of a the Stormfront site. Think about it. The target group who you intended this blog for are hardly here anymore.

      Thank you Kal for your concern. The three of them have been posting comments on this blog. I am not worried about Migrant Tales becoming an extension of Stormfront. Moderation by the moderator is the key word.

  40. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, remember those figures you showed on Somalis? Well, here you have one woman that has succeeded in Western society”

    Yep but no figure has ever showed 100% unemployment among Somalis. Has it? It just shows that the vast majority is/has/will fail and we will foot their bill.

    Commentator? Is this the only thing that caught our attention? It begs belief… After everything this woman said in her 2 videos you comment is about the commentator.

    How about her opinion on how Europe is put itself in danger for allowing Islam to spread unchallenged? Her opinion about Sharia? And how Muslims are allowed to do whatever they want in name of community cohesion? And her comment about if we give enough time it won’t get better but worse?

    This time, my friend, it’s not Halla-aho, Nick Griffin or Tony Garcia saying that, it’s someone from within. Difficult to call her a racist, isn’t?

  41. Tony Garcia

    Also how about the Muslim from the multicultural “successful” Australia, who tried to speak about what is going on in there, but was removed buy the Imam? Is this what we expect in a modern liberal western society? Or we need to have cultural sensitivity when dealing with these issues?

    I don’t know much about Australia, but certainly there is a lot happening there. Maybe a little more research will show more. If the Imams allow it, of course…

  42. Tony Garcia

    Sorry amigo Enrique, but this is not the first time someone says my comments shouldn’t be allowed here. Last time was Alien, remember him? The Iranian who has been kick off from Finland for being a threat?

    Anyway, I said this last time I’ll say it again, if by any reason you think my comments are not suitable to this forum or its audience, you know you just need to say it once, and I’ll take my keyboard to somewhere else.

    • Enrique

      Tony, as you know, I like debate and different opinions. I have done journalism for over 20 years and the last thing I would want to impose is censorship. I do, however, disagree with you on many fundamental issues. It is your right to express what you think.

  43. Tiwaz

    -“Tiwaz, your absolute perpceptions of some ethnic groups as come down in flames. It shows that if human beings are given an opportunity, some can succeed. She sounds level-headed but the commentators that interview do not.”

    SOME

    SOME!

    IF that “some” is not enough to cover the costs from “rest” the it is negative result.

    One woman manages to get somewhere. That leaves HOW MANY WHO DO NOTHING?

    If total output of the group is negative, meaning that output of those who do something is less than expenses caused by rest how do you justify such group as beneficial to society?

  44. Tiwaz

    By the way Kal, drop all those aliases and write with one name. It is pointless trying to pretend so many fools are around who support fully multiculturalism.

  45. intternetnetsi

    “Well, here you have one woman that has succeeded in Western society.”

    And with what price, did you know he had to be under 24/7 protection and was abandoned by her family because she took oppoturnity what western society gave to her. All cultures are equal…

  46. Tony Garcia

    DeTant let me get back to you…

    Yes you father had a poor life and yet his children completed their studies. The very same can happen to this fella, school is free and available to all in Finland, so if they have/had children, once living in Finland they will, probably, go to the same path.

    However my point is about the chap himself. Did your dad start his life in Finland when he was 28? Could he read/write and do basic math? Did he speak Finnish, Swedish or English allowing him to communicate in there? The fella I’m talking about, along with majority of Somalis, lack all of this.

    His future in Finland is doomed, I have to doubt. However the hard question remains, in few years time will he start blaming the Finns for his failure?

  47. intternetnetsi

    Tony my grandparent were in that list ready to be moved to Katyn, thank good they didnt give up and and i wont either.

  48. Tony Garcia

    Amigo Enrique, thanks for your support.

    Something just caught my attention today and I want to share with you all. Few days ago we have been discussing about London and the Africans in there, particularly Somalis. Well crime committed by this group is getting so out of control that the MET had to drop the PC bondage that has prevent them to work effectively and has lunch an new campaign. Have a look…

    http://www.met.police.uk/campaigns/hide_his_gun/

    That’s the reality there. The HM prison service reports…

    “As at 30 June 2006, 28% of the prisoners in the women’s estate were from ethnic minorities in comparison to around 27% of prisoners in the male estate.”

    They represent about 7% of the total population, well overrepresented.

    As you can see we can when we talk about multicultural success we need to ask, for whom?

    PS YLE reports today…

    “The number of people seeking Finnish residency due to employment opportunities has plummeted during the recession”

    ”Meanwhile, the number of people applying for residence based on family ties has risen slightly this year… The largest number of applicants were from Somalia.“

    Scary isn’t?

    • Enrique

      –As you can see we can when we talk about multicultural success we need to ask, for whom?

      So, if the majority of the inmates in prison are blacks, does it show that the system does not work and is racist? You would have to study the issue closer in order to conclude that multiculturalism is a failure. The issue is that multiculturalism (the physical presence of people from different cultures) cannot be stopped. It is a reality of Western societies due to economics and globalization. There is no return (if there ever was) to a society that is “monocultural” and “content.” There never existed such a society. It is only a figment of some people’s imagination. They are only expectations and hopes of the old saying: “Things were better and easier in the old times.” So, if you cannot kick out people in mass from your country because you disagree with their culture, and live in a society of many cultures the million-euro question is: how do we make it work?

      –”Meanwhile, the number of people applying for residence based on family ties has risen slightly this year… The largest number of applicants were from Somalia.“

      Scary? Are we being “invaded” by some group? This idea that Finland is being “invaded” is one of the biggest unfounded fears of this country. It has to do with history. People fear that they will be eaten up by the big bad foreign wolf. You should ask people in countries such as Spain, Italy and others if they feel the same way. In Spain, thousands try to said to the shores from Africa. However, you do not see newspapers stating that the country is being invaded and eaten up by refugees.

  49. Referee

    Which Finnish newspaper is stating that “the country is being invaded and eaten up by refugees?”

    And FYI, I can tell you that the Spanish and Italians are waaayyyy more and openly critical, and in fact hostile against e.g. refugees and gypsies than Finns.

    • Enrique

      –And FYI, I can tell you that the Spanish and Italians are waaayyyy more and openly critical, and in fact hostile against e.g. refugees and gypsies than Finns.

      Maybe true for Italians as opposed to Spaniards. Even so, I never got the feeling that “foreigners were going to come in droves and invade the country.” If you want one of the persons who did this sort of thing in the end of the 1980s, take a look at Keijo Korhonen. He scared people by stating that Russians would come in droves to Finland. Even if the papers write less about this today, it is on some Finn’s mind and a deep cause of fear. There are even some in this blog who laim that Finland will soon have a large Muslim population. Let’s, however, be sensible and put things into context.

  50. Tiwaz

    -“It is a reality of Western societies due to economics and globalization. There is no return (if there ever was) to a society that is “monocultural” and “content.” There never existed such a society. It is only a figment of some people’s imagination. They are only expectations and hopes of the old saying: “Things were better and easier in the old times.” So, if you cannot kick out people in mass from your country because you disagree with their culture, and live in a society of many cultures the million-euro question is: how do we make it work?”

    No, multiculturalism is that everyone lives according to their cultural tradition in whatever nation they happen to be.

    Million-euro question is: How do we ram into thick heads of immigrants that they are no longer at home, and they have to learn how to live here under local rules instead of trying to pretend they never left home?

    You are by the way wrong, we CAN kick en mass people out of our nation if they refuse to adjust and become liability or problem to our society, because it is our nation.

    Multiculturalism is a failure. Multiculturalism, as you before have tried to explain it, is multiple cultures in one country. It failed everywhere where it has been attempted.

    Thus, we have to forget whole concept and concentrate on how to make immigrants adjust to culture and society they move into, instead of telling them to cling to ways and traditions which bring them to conflict with native population.

  51. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, you are truly amazing…

    First you say we need to look at data from other places to see where we are. I do, but unfortunately the data is really not supportive to multiculturalism, so what do you do then? Go to the usual “all racist” back door escape. Unbelievable…

    “The issue is that multiculturalism (the physical presence of people from different cultures)…”

    Is it? I thought this was called immigration. I thought multiculturalism was one way to deal with it. Are we change the concept’s means already?

    “…cannot be stopped.”

    Really? Do you really think multiculturalism can’t be stopped? I think we had other ideologies with also couldn’t be stopped. Communism, Nazism, Fascism also were unstoppable but are long gone. Russians, Germans and Italians are still here, whoever they pursue a different goal nowadays. Don’t they?

    “There never existed such a society.”

    So you are saying that Finland having some Swedish and Russian influence is the same than Finland having a Somali and Iraqi influence?

    “how do we make it work?”

    Well tell us. Actually you could tell also the British, Irish, Swedish, Italian and other European governments. I’m sure they would welcome any suggestion.

    “Are we being “invaded” by some group?”

    I don’t remember I used this word… Am I talking about invasion? Well…

    What scares me is that we are seen less work immigrants are more welfare buns. Besides I took very serious Miss Hirsi Ali warning. When she tells us the problem (Muslims) starts small but grows very fast I do believe her. Do you? Or you think she’s just another racist?

  52. Tony Garcia

    And talking about unstoppable multiculturalism did you see the interview professor Vihavainen gave to HS last Sunday?

    He wouldn’t have this space a year ago would he? How much has the media changed after PS election? How much more could it change if PS do better next election?

    Also you haven’t answered me if you would support an referendum on Multiculturalism. Once we live in a democracy should be people get the change to say if they want their country be changed that much? Is democracy also an relative concept?

    • Enrique

      –Also you haven’t answered me if you would support an referendum on Multiculturalism. Once we live in a democracy should be people get the change to say if they want their country be changed that much? Is democracy also an relative concept?

      Are you speaking of the social policy or a society that physically comprises of many cultures?

  53. Tony Garcia

    “Are you speaking of the social policy or a society that physically comprises of many cultures?”

    Both. Should the people have the right to say if they want it or not?

    PS. For me culture doesn’t mean race…

    • Enrique

      –PS. For me culture doesn’t mean race…

      Then if you see multiculturalism as a social policy and a demographic reality, what do you suggest? Here is one definition by Peter Kivisto on what is multiculturalism: “Multiculturalism refers to a view that ethnically or religiously divided societies should protect and promote diversity and should be based on both individual and group rights.” One of the big questions about this social policy is if groups should have a distinct status? If we have the ability to put people on the moon and are technologically advanced, why can´t we create a society that takes into account other people´s rights?

      What is your solution? Love white Europe or leave it?

  54. Tony Garcia

    I was wondering… if I do a little research about minorities in Canadian jail, what would I find?

    Are they overrepresented there too?

  55. Tony Garcia

    “Maybe true for Italians as opposed to Spaniards”

    http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3527

    “The question on the minds of many Spaniards is how many more immigrants Spain will take in before growing anti-immigrant sentiment turns violent. Those fears were most recently sparked in early September, when race riots erupted in a southern Spanish resort town near Almería.”

    • Enrique

      Tony, there are counttries that have dramatic changes to their demographic makeup and survived. The key, in my opinion, is how these different groups will live and what will be government policy. In Latvia you have about 50% of the population that is Russian-speaking. Some young people born in independent Latvia claim that they do not have the same hangups about Russians as those that grew under the former Soviet Union. Other countries with large minorities could include the US, Canada, Great Britain, Germany, Russia etc… If we take the road of suspicion and use our resources to state how bad the other group is, we are going to have trouble down the road. If we build a society on our Western, liberal democratic principles, there will be hope for change. You or I nor anyone can stop immigration and keep a country hermetically sealed from the outside world. The Nazis attempted such a thing by carrying out racial hygiene and look at its catastrophic consequences. So the way forward is not by sounding alarm bells and instilling fear about how the big bad wolf is going to eat us up.

  56. Tiwaz

    -“One of the big questions about this social policy is if groups should have a distinct status? If we have the ability to put people on the moon and are technologically advanced, why can´t we create a society that takes into account other people´s rights?”

    Because different groups have different and CONFLICTING wants. If Mohammed from Wahabbistan can only live in society where every woman is forced to wear potato sack and never step out of their home without male escort.

    That is how their culture and society thinks things should be. So if they come and bring that culture and society here, we have serious problem. Which is proven by huge amount of issues rising from immigrant groups from Islamic world.

    It cannot work. One or another party has to give up their cultural ways and “rights” because they are mutually exclusive. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

  57. Tony Garcia

    “If we take the road of suspicion and use our resources to state how bad the other group is, we are going to have trouble down the road.”

    Sorry but it was your idea when talking about prison population in Finland. You said we should look around to see how immigrants/minorities are doing to compare. Well they are not doing very well, are they?

    “You or I nor anyone can stop immigration and keep a country hermetically sealed from the outside world”

    Again… who’s talking about immigration? For me, and many others there is immigrants and immigrants.

    “So the way forward is not by sounding alarm bells and instilling fear about how the big bad wolf is going to eat us up.”

    Do you disagree the noise the media is making about campaign funding in Finland?

  58. Tony Garcia

    I think Kivisto’s definition is spot on…

    “ethnically or religiously divided societies”

    That’s what multiculturalism do, divide. That’s why other countries are desperate try to achieve community cohesion but all has failed. You can’t have a unified society if the core of your policy is division.

    “What is your solution?”

    Again? How many times do I have to say that?

    Integration. I must fit to the main society not try to change it to fit me.

    Respect to the main culture. (self explanatory)

    Same rights to all. I don’t demand more rights than the locals.

    Auto-critic. Not blame the society and locals for my own failures.

    Acknowledge that you are in Finland not elsewhere. If I don’t like the Finnish life I’ll move instead demand that Finland changes to what I like.

    Equality. Real equality.

    Non discrimination. Not against me, but not in my favour either.

    Same protection than the Finns, but not more.

    Right to criticise, but also right to be criticized.

    Those are the principle I live by and they work very well, thrust me…

    • Enrique

      –That’s what multiculturalism do, divide. That’s why other countries are desperate try to achieve community cohesion but all has failed. You can’t have a unified society if the core of your policy is division.

      Tony, this is a big challenge. How do we create “community cohesion” and maintain it? There are a lot of questions the multiculturalism raises as a social policy. However, one matter that I like about it is that it does give minorities public space and recognition in a society. Does this happen in practice? I think the jury is still out in some respects. If you strongly criticize multiculturalism as a social policy, what do you suggest in its place? Is what you are going to introduce create more “community cohesion?” I think the jury is out on that one too.

  59. Tony Garcia

    “If we build a society on our Western, liberal democratic principles, there will be hope for change.”

    Amigo, that says it all. The reason I moved to Europe rather than India or Pakistan was exactly to live by those principles. Well, I’d change liberal by conservative, but anyway…

    How can I disagree with you? However who is fighting against these principles? Here is exactly where we disagree.

    How can we have western values and cultural sensitivity at the same time?

    I already asked how can we have a gender discrimination free society and Islam at the same time? That also goes for homosexuals. Can a homosexual be prevented to enter a church? How about a Mosque?

    You have shown here a enormous respect and commitment to freedom of speech and thoughts. Also for democracy, no one can doubt. However I’ll ask you how can we have those values and Islam at the same time?

    http://www.thelocal.de/national/20091005-22355.html

    “Publisher shelves honour killing book in fear of Islamist retaliation”

    Have you seen a book/news/comment or anything held for fear of Christian, Jewish or Buddhist retaliation?

    Sorry Enrique but if we put together western values and cultural sensitivity one will undermine the other. And what we have experienced is that our values are the ones loosing these battle.

    If you really want to build a society on our Western, liberal democratic principles, it’s not to the Finns you need to talk to.

  60. Tiwaz

    -“Tony, this is a big challenge. How do we create “community cohesion” and maintain it? There are a lot of questions the multiculturalism raises as a social policy. However, one matter that I like about it is that it does give minorities public space and recognition in a society. Does this happen in practice? I think the jury is still out in some respects. If you strongly criticize multiculturalism as a social policy, what do you suggest in its place? Is what you are going to introduce create more “community cohesion?” I think the jury is out on that one too.”

    He has repeatedly said what is the way to community cohesion.

    Integration/assimilation. Whatever term you prefer.
    Accepting local norms, traditions and limitations and living by them. Not trying to import yours which conflict with native society.

    You like the idea of “public space and recognition”. Problem is IT DOES NOT WORK. It never has, it never will.

    You liking idea does not make it valid one. If it works, it makes it valid one. No offense to your chosen profession, but I think you would do well to forget here the idea of journalist that ideas are good and embrace engineers mantra that WORKING ideas are good.

    If it cannot be put into practice, no matter how pretty the idea is it is worthless.

    • Enrique

      –Accepting local norms, traditions and limitations and living by them. Not trying to import yours which conflict with native society.

      I don´t see it totally as you. In a society comprised of many cultures, we learn to share the public space we live in. Here is the fine line that separates your thinking and mine.

  61. Tony Garcia

    “If you strongly criticize multiculturalism as a social policy, what do you suggest in its place?”

    Nothing, I don’t need and don’t want anything but western values for me and all around me. Isn’t this what you so much advocate? So do I…

    I’ve agreed with many things you have said but nothing stroked me more than when you said that our biggest danger is when we live in a society with us and them (or something like that). That’s absolutely true.

    Do you know what I am? A member of Irish society. Nothing else. Do you know what I’m going to be next year? A member of Finnish society. Everything else is irrelevant, therefore I don’t want any special space or recognition. If you do, then you’re the one creating the problem in the first place.

    My son is a pupil in a protestant school, so he wears a cross. If he goes to a secular school where religious symbols are banned he won’t wear it anymore. I won’t demand that the school allows him to break the uniform code. I don’t what make an public statement saying to all that he’s different in any level or form. He’s a pupil as anyone else, so special space or recognition are not necessary.

    When you want to be different, that’s what you’re going to be, therefore you can’t complain that people sees you differently. Can you? For me the key word is social (not physical) invisibility. We, immigrants, need to be nothing else than members of this society. We shouldn’t demand any special arrangement. If we can’t live effectively in this society without change it we are the problem not the society.

    You ask…

    “How do we create “community cohesion” and maintain it?”

    How about creating policies with help cohesion rather than promote difference?

    How about equality laws that are equal to ALL, without buts or ifs?

    How about anti-discrimination laws that prevent that NO ONE can discriminate?

    How about rules that ALL must follow regardless if your culture/religion accept it or not?

    Could this help create “community cohesion” and maintain it? What do you think?

  62. Tony Garcia

    Enrique please tell me if what I’m going to say for you now is valid or not…

    You have been researching immigration for some time, haven’t you? How about that?

    A research dividing immigrants in two groups: Those who decided to integrate/assimilate, and those who decide to be whatever their culture/believes/religion tells them.

    Then you analyse both groups based on their level of success. With group have a better life, more friends, more respect, enjoy themselves more. With group have less to complaint about the environment they live in.

    What do you think? Could such a research show with policy is, in fact, better for immigrants?

  63. Tiwaz

    -“I don´t see it totally as you. In a society comprised of many cultures, we learn to share the public space we live in. Here is the fine line that separates your thinking and mine.”

    Except my thinking is supported by history. Attempt to introduce two conflicting cultural traditions into same “public space” will only turn that space into battlefield.

    MY view is supported by centuries of human history. Where can you show society built on your ideals which is more stable, more unified and has less internal issues than their neighbors who have chosen to have only one culture in their public space?

    You do not HAVE any to present. That alone should tell you how your thinking has huge flaw in it, it starts with assumption that does not work.

    • Enrique

      –“Multiculturalism is a disaster. Because it is a disaster and has opened the door to organized crime, the latter’s money has bought everything and the praise of multiculturalism is being sung louder than ever. “

      The person who wrote this is the editor of an conservative website called the Brussels Journal. What he writes does not surprise me. I think, however, that he is a poor editorialist because he does not give any options on how to solve the problem he sees. All he does is make a grandiose statement at the the end where we are supposed to stand up and give him a standing ovation (or a thumbs down in my case).

  64. Tiwaz

    -“The person who wrote this is the editor of an conservative website called the Brussels Journal. What he writes does not surprise me. I think, however, that he is a poor editorialist because he does not give any options on how to solve the problem he sees. All he does is make a grandiose statement at the the end where we are supposed to stand up and give him a standing ovation (or a thumbs down in my case).”

    Well, problem he presents is multiculturalism. Only way to solve it is to abolish concept of multiculturalism.

    It is rather obvious.

    Have YOU offered a way to turn multiculturalism into functioning system where divisions in society do not bring so much problems that they start to grind the society into mud?

    • Enrique

      –Well, problem he presents is multiculturalism. Only way to solve it is to abolish concept of multiculturalism.

      Integration by perkele?

      –Have YOU offered a way to turn multiculturalism into functioning system where divisions in society do not bring so much problems that they start to grind the society into mud?

      If we are speaking of multiculturalism as a policy (Finland is not officially a multicultural country but has sensibilities to this idea) I think that the immigrant issue in this country is at a diaper stage. We are still debating whether immigration is a good matter for Finland never mind how to lower unemployment, get people to participate more in our society and share public spaces with us. We do not have to go the moon to find an answer. The reply is in our laws and way of life. If we could just apply it to others who live in this country.

  65. Tiwaz

    -“Integration by perkele? ”

    It works.

    -“If we are speaking of multiculturalism as a policy (Finland is not officially a multicultural country but has sensibilities to this idea) I think that the immigrant issue in this country is at a diaper stage. We are still debating whether immigration is a good matter for Finland never mind how to lower unemployment, get people to participate more in our society and share public spaces with us. We do not have to go the moon to find an answer. The reply is in our laws and way of life. If we could just apply it to others who live in this country.”

    We are speaking of multiculturalism in general here too. You cannot present case where it has brought more good than bad.

    You say UK, then me or Tony posts how native Britons are disillusioned and UNHAPPY with whole fucking mess.

    What you say is true, Finland is in fortunate position of not yet having committed itself to failure called multiculturalism.

    This is why we still have time to fix the issue without least effort. But we must take decisive action now against whole idea of multiculturalism.

    Unemployment will not be lowered by demanding that employers lower their standards. This is not progress, it is stupidity.

    If you want to participate, learn HOW to participate. Do not presume that things work like “at home”. Immigrants must realize that their native cultural ways are most likely wrong here.

    This part actually you were right about: “The reply is in our laws and way of life. If we could just apply it to others who live in this country.”

    Yes, answer IS that simple. To rephrase it into something more easily understood by people who have not yet grasped that this is not “like at home”.

    Finland is where things are done the Finnish way. Adjust or fuck off. And I say fuck off in nicest possible way, because we are not going to change our way of life to appease your immigrant ass. If YOU do not change your way of life, odds are that you will be miserable. And when you are miserable you bitch, whine and try to make us Finns miserable.

    So do yourself, and everyone else, a favor. If you cannot for one reason or another adjust to live in Finland the way it is, leave. Find place where you can live without need to bitch and whine about how things are done.

  66. Tony Garcia

    “…editor of an conservative website…”

    Does this make the report less believable than from a liberal website?

    “I think, however, that he is a poor editorialist because he does not give any options on how to solve the problem he sees”

    Does this make the problem less truth?

    “Integration by perkele?”

    How about integration by wish? Could this be an option?

    “We are still debating whether immigration is a good matter for Finland…”

    Should this debate finish first before we bring more people in?

    “The reply is in our laws and way of life. If we could just apply it to others who live in this country.”

    Sorry but isn’t this exactly what Tiwaz, Detant, Hannu and I are advocating here? Our laws and way of life to everyone? If that’s the way (what I and others do agree indeed), than we need to see who doesn’t want it, don’t we? Those will be the ones causing the problem in the first place. Is that right?

    Enrique you haven’t answered my question about the research I proposed. If it was possible to be done would that be valid? Could that show with path, multiculturalism or integration/assimilation, is in fact better for immigrants?

    • Enrique

      –“Less than a third of Muslims think that immigrants should adopt British culture and values, according to a poll”

      Tony, the whole idea about multiculturalism as a policy in Britain is the sharing of public space (there can be mosques and cathedrals). As a member of Western society, how much we integrate into a host culture depends on us and is a choice, not a mandatory one. It is not a situation where we go home and practice our culture but practice it publicly where we live. That is one aspect of multiculturalism as a social policy.

  67. Tiwaz

    -“Tony, the whole idea about multiculturalism as a policy in Britain is the sharing of public space (there can be mosques and cathedrals). As a member of Western society, how much we integrate into a host culture depends on us and is a choice, not a mandatory one. It is not a situation where we go home and practice our culture but practice it publicly where we live. That is one aspect of multiculturalism as a social policy.”

    And whole point of communism was absolute equality and that everyone would have the same.

    And like multiculturalism, it does not work.

    Integration cannot be up to choice of immigrant, because public space being divided into little cliques of different cultures is 100% certain solution for conflict.

    Culture by nature seeks to expand it’s influence because people are most comfortable in their own familiar cultural norms. Thus, immigrants seek to increase their sphere of influence in public space and natives feel under assault as their sphere of influence is forced back.

    It can never work in practice, it is pretty idea but it is failure.

    Enrique, the whole idea about multiculturalism is dysfunctional.

    • Enrique

      –And whole point of communism was absolute equality and that everyone would have the same.

      So what you are suggesting, Tiwaz, is a two-tier society. It is ok to bash immigrants, rip them off their cultural rights but then treat your own group with the greatest of dignity. That is what I call a hypocritical society. Those that live here have the same rights as you, full stop.

  68. Tony Garcia

    “Culture by nature seeks to expand it’s influence because people are most comfortable in their own familiar cultural norms.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6298788/Qatar-donates-1.5m-for-mosque-after-intervention-from-Jack-Straw.html

    “Haras Rafiq, co-founder of the Sufi Muslim council, said large foreign donors expected mosques to reflect their beliefs, and this was squeezing out moderate Muslims. “This has been a huge problem for the last decade. Some of the biggest mosques and institutions in the UK have been funded by foreign money and have been proven to be portraying extremist viewpoints.”

    PS. Before someone takes the usual “conservative media” back door, check who’s actually saying that…

    • Enrique

      –“Culture by nature seeks to expand it’s influence because people are most comfortable in their own familiar cultural norms.”

      Tony, this is what is meant by sharing public space. If you have a group of minorities living and working in a city, don´t they have a right to their culture? It isn´t a question of practising your culture behind closed doors. This is not only one of the the aims of multiculturalism, but any sensible society that has people from other cultures. You cannot expect to have a demographically multicultural situation and expect tha only one church, one culture is the norm. When I speak of culture I do not mean it as an exclusively, all-embracing holistic system. The difference between you and I on this matter is that you think that cultural diversity and the democratic right to practise one´s culture should be curtailed (?).

  69. Tony Garcia

    “As a member of Western society, how much we integrate into a host culture depends on us and is a choice, not a mandatory one.”

    Yes, absolutely. But we know than who is creating the problem in the first place.

    If you want to be so different don’t complain that people sees you differently…

  70. Tony Garcia

    “So what you are suggesting, Tiwaz, is a two-tier society”

    Sorry Enrique, for me that is what YOU have been suggesting here.

    • Enrique

      Amigo Tony, since you are in favor of assimilation, you feel that everyone must adapt to the majority culture. Multiculturalism would be the total opposite of that. It is, as I have mentioned a number of times, sharing public space so you do not have to go and hide in your home to practice your culture.

  71. Tiwaz

    -“So what you are suggesting, Tiwaz, is a two-tier society. It is ok to bash immigrants, rip them off their cultural rights but then treat your own group with the greatest of dignity. That is what I call a hypocritical society. Those that live here have the same rights as you, full stop.”

    No, just the opposite. Absolute one tier society where EVERYONE has SAME expectations set for them.

    This DOES mean that “no-speak” immigrants will be failures until they get a grip and learn the language.

    But so would be “no-speak” natives. Thus, natives and immigrants are on same line.

    This DOES mean that cultural tradition of natives overrules foreigners cultural tradition. Do NOT expect anyone to go out of their way to be culturally compatible with you. You are immigrant, you have to learn to be compatible with society which already exists.

    -“Tony, this is what is meant by sharing public space. If you have a group of minorities living and working in a city, don´t they have a right to their culture?”

    No if them sticking to it puts them in conflict with native culture and population. If it is against native cultural tradition, it is forbidden for immigrants regardless of how important it is for them.

    We do NOT condone honour murder, demands that women must wear burkha or any other cultural tradition which is in violation of ours.

  72. DeTant Blomhat

    There is no problam sharing the same space – as l9ong as all thoise living here agree to the same rules. Problem is – mulyticulturalism is different rules for different people. Therefore the people need to take those things that are against common rules behind closed dorrs. Or do you see naturalists walking butt naked on the street? In some places you do, where nudism is according to the common rules.

  73. Mohamed

    All i have to say is that The finns are the most racist people in this planet, i visited finland many years ago as a tourist and got attacked several times becouse i was simply BLACK.Can i ask you to keep your own views to your selves and leave the Somalis alone.

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