In defence of Migrant Tales

by , under All categories, Mark

Migrant Tales is under attack. The blog’s founder is receiving threats of violence, is being defamed and ridiculed in public forums, is being harassed even to the point of having his workplace invaded by defamatory communications. It is not an easy time for Enrique or his family and I feel compelled to say something about this situation.

Migrant Tales is very clear about its purpose: It aims to be a voice for those whose views and situation are understood poorly and heard faintly by the media, politicians and public. This generally refers to immigrants and their descendents in Finland.

It is no surprise perhaps that immigrants are often poorly portrayed or represented in the Finnish media and public fora, as they are a small number, and are often considered and painted in single brush strokes that take little account of individuality, of cultural diversity or even of cultural history.

Add to this the rise in popularity of a Far Right political party whose members have been very outspoken against immigrants, even to the point of being prosecuted for hate speech, and it’s not surprising to see that the atmosphere is sometimes characterised by suspicion and even hatred. Finland, as well as the rest of Europe, is portrayed as being under threat.

And then, in recent months, there have been several deaths of immigrants in violent circumstances, the motives for which are unclear, but where hate crimes could very justifiably be suspected. It was following one of these incidents that a PS councillor of some years standing made a public comment about giving the murderer of an immigrant a medal because, as he said, Finland was at war.

The immigrant communities in Finland are fully justified in asking what the hell is going on! While there have been some attempts in Oulu to reassure local communities, there has also been a significant silence from politicians and from the media on the issue. It seems the concerns are not given any credence. That is a shame.

Against this backdrop, Migrant Tales has been very critical and vocal in challenging the rhetoric coming out of the Far Right of politics and in publicising the antics and extremism that taints Perussuomalaiset as a party. And so, in return, Migrant Tales has come under attack.

Part of that attack has been to distort what Migrant Tales is about, though of course the critics will not see it as a distortion. Nevertheless, several criticisms have been repeatedly made that simply do not stand up to any kind of scrutiny. However, throw enough mud, and the hope is probably that some of it sticks – that seems to be the general rule of thumb.

I think some of these accusations need to be tackled very strongly, so I will take a few of them below and comment directly.

Our critics say:

We are attacking Finns and Finland’s reputation!

This is simply not true. Migrant Tales opposes racism, discrimination and misrepresentation of immigrant groups. It does not oppose Finland or Finns. One of the difficulties in this debate is how people take up a position that places others into a ‘natural’ grouping – that of native Finns, and that of several other foreign nationalities. Once put into these groups, the narrative of war, of incompatibility, of superiority and inferiority plays out.

It is all too easy for those foreigners criticized as being rapists, violent criminals etc., that they respond to this criticism by hitting back. It is understandable when 20% of the Finnish electorate vote for a party that is openly hostile to immigrants, or particular immigrants, that they would ask ‘what do Finns really think?’ or ‘Is Finland a racist country’. These are not questions that will necessarily reveal a useful answer.

The debate is all too easily polarised into those that will answer yes or no. But they are understandable questions. Paranoia in this kind of atmosphere is understandable. However, even the smallest lumping of Finns into one basket with a label of ‘racist’ on it brings a vehement response, from the very same people who are very happy to stick Somalis into one basket and write ‘rapists’ and ‘robbers’ onto it. The hypocrisy of it stinks, frankly.

Nevertheless, let’s make it clear, Migrant Tales does not think of Finland as a ‘racist’ country. Racism is to a large extent an individual issue. Finland has very good laws against discrimination. At the national and regional level of governance, one question is how this is implemented through services. There are issues that relate to how institutions and public authorities in Finland approach and understand the specific needs of immigrants groups, and if they are to fulfil their public obligation to provide services for all, then further study and adaptation is necessary. In some cases, inertia towards change in this respect is clearly going to be due to the racism of individuals within those services, racism I directly and unequivocally saw in officials on my very first visit to the Labour Exchange in Finland ten years ago. Anyone that denies that it can exist, I would call them extremely naive.

We tell lies

For some, lies implies saying that Finland is a racist country. As I’ve already said that that is an unhelpful question, it also goes without saying that Migrant Tales is not in any way trying to talk about Finland ‘as a racist country’, but simply about racism in Finland. This is the very starting threshold of the debate: before we even enter the door, we must have at least some basic agreement that there is racism in Finland and what can be done about it.

However, for many of our critics, we do not even get through this door. There is not much to be said about this, really. However, many things can and will be discussed under this subject. Some of it will be objective, some of it will be subjective. If it is merely a matter of a difference of opinion, then labelling your opponent as a ‘liar’ is just provocative and defamatory. At the same time, too much of the debate is done with very little accurate or reliable statistical evidence. The lack of such evidence is itself regrettable considering how much use is being made of statistics to degrade and denigrate certain immigrant groups.

We are the racists

Some people, when they hear us talking about an incidence of racism or a crime against an immigrant imagine that because we are focusing on their ethnicity or colour that we must be the racists. This accusation is based on a half understanding and it is always made by people who in turn think it’s perfectly acceptable to talk about the crime statistics of particular ethnic groups. Again, hypocrites.

Migrant Tales focuses on these crimes not because we think immigrants are of more value, but because the mainstream media typically will only give quite small column inches to these stories while talk of ‘hate crimes’ is all too easily dismissed when there is no evidence one way or the other that would dismiss it. It is incumbent on Migrant Tales to pursue the issue. It is also the case that many of the issues highlighted are where immigrants have claimed racism. In these cases, the focus on race or ethnicity comes from the nature of the crime, not from a desire to ‘put people into groups’; that that has already been done is the nature of the problem under discussion.

We are the extremists

I have never met an extremist (and I’ve met many through my studies) yet who actually thought they were an extremist. This is not surprising. In fact, extremism is a relative perspective. For the majority looking upon the ideas of radicals and extremists, it is clear that their views of society and how it should be organised depart significantly from the views of the majority. For those on the extremes, the belief they have in their own sense of truth, their own view of reality means that they are happy to accept that the majority do not know ‘what is good for them’. That’s how it is. So I’m not surprised that we appear as extremists to the extremists visiting this blog. However, it cannot be stated enough that this blog stands for tolerance, acceptance, human rights and a world free of discrimination.

The issue for me looking at these topics is that immigrants’ problems and perspectives are dismissed, ridiculed and denied. This really is unacceptable. Those that make any claims are immediately attacked, in the same way this blog has been attacked. Let’s make no mistake, this is not the approach of an open or a modern society.

While the comments on this blog represent only a small ecosystem of opinion within Finland and beyond, they nevertheless highlight at least a part of the reality in regard to immigration debate in Finland.

Perspective is always hard to maintain in these issues. Some people will defend Finland’s reputation blindly, without necessarily giving any depth of thought to their stance or their claims. Any criticism is taken to heart, and criticism by foreigners is all too easy to dismiss as ill-informed and biased. However, we are not just foreigners. We are Finns too in this blog.

Any group of people that are subject to pressures or a unique and marginalised position within society will find it hard to make their experiences known and felt. Marginalised people typically suffer from a lack of voice, a lack of public visibility, except that drawn according to the rules and prejudices of the majority. In any situation where problems and tensions arise, the key to resolving them is dialogue. Concerns from both sides need to be aired, dealt with openly and honestly and a willingness to show goodwill. This is an absolute prerequisite, but one which is on the whole completely denied us by those criticising Migrant Tales. The feeling really is that we are not even allowed to debate…

This is a forum of sorts and we do invite discussion by allowing comments on the articles, although the speed with which comments typically go ‘off topic’ is surprising and sometimes even a bit suspicious.

The lack of goodwill has meant that that forum has descended often into threat, slander, and mischief. My strongest concern is that this detracts from the real debate, and from the real stories and experiences of immigrants here in Finland. This blog is supposed to be a voice for immigrants, not for critics of immigration. They have their own blogs and forums in which to make their points.

The time has come to impose some order and civility in this discussion. My suggestion is that this blog follows the rule that when debating, all commentators must stick to playing the ball and not the ball player. If an argument appears stupid or dishonest, then the challenge is to demonstrate why you think that, not to take the short cut route of insulting the other commentator. This should apply to all sides equally. Then at least this atmosphere of bitterness that has grown here can give way to an atmosphere of constructive discussion. At least, here’s to hoping!

  1. Alan Bruce

    You are not alone Enrique. These attacks are nasty, vicious and targeted. They emerge from the swamps if hatred and distrust. Finland and all Europe deserve better. But be of good cheer. These attacks, distasteful (and unlawful?) as they are show that Migrant Takes is having an impact. We all look forward to deepening and extending its contribution.

  2. Allan

    “If an argument appears stupid or dishonest, then the challenge is to demonstrate why you think that, not to take the short cut root of insulting the other commentator.”

    Enrique has written this blog since 2007. Reading through the archives it looks like every time when he has presented with evidence to the contrary he has never ever posted any corrections or even acknowledged he has been wrong. He just stubbornly continues writing things that are not true in a very aloof manner, so I can understand why the comments go personal.

    While I understand that immigrant issues are being brought up – but never issues about immigrants involved in anything bad – this does give the site a bias of immigrants= good, Finland & Finns =bad. It is not impartial at all. While one can overcome this slant, then we come to the content. The facts behind the events are never portrayed in an impartial light, but everything is twisted to show the “racism”, which in most cases does not exist. What I also see is some foreigners who do not know better read these fabrications and it feeds their own prejudices and paranoia. Facts are usually totally different.

    Migrant Tales has refreshingly changed from its myopic Finland-bashing to trashing the True Finns lately. While I can understand why some people might get a bit hot-headed, in my bookmarks this is in the “humor sites” category as nobody can take all the absurd claims about Finland seriously. Keep up the good work!

  3. Sasu

    Kauniita sanoja ja hienoja ideoita.

    Yhdeksä asiassa olen täysin eri mieltä sinun kanssa. Minä en näe rasismia pelkänä inviduallistisena tekona. Minä näen rasismin yhteiskunnallisena ilmiönä, joka ei tarvikse individuallisteja mihinkään.

    Oletko kuulus sellaisesta asiasta kuin rakenteellinen rasismi. Sillä tarkoitetaan sellaista rasismia joka toimii järjestelmän sisällä. Systeemit ja käytännös jotka vahvistavat rasistista maailmankatsomusta. Me voimme nähdä juuri sellaista rasismia joka puolella yhteiskuntaa.
    Valkoiset kutsuvat sitä helposti piilorasismiksi.

  4. Allan

    Viimeinen maa jossa oli valkoisten eurooppalaisten puolelta rakenteellista rasismia oli Etelä-Afrikka, ja sielläkin systeemi purettiin 1994. Jossain Amerikan etelävaltioissa saattaa tosin olla vielä lakikirjoissa joitain unohtuneita säädöksiä. Sen sijaan, jos katsotaan missä kaikissa valtioissa vielä nykypäivänä esiintyy rakenteellista rasismia, niin löytyyhän niitä Euroopan ulkopuolelta useitakin. Puhumattakaan muista aspekteista, orjuuskin kriminalsoitiin Mauretaniassa vasta 2007. Yhtesikunta käsittääkseni muodostuu ihmisistä, ja ihmiset ne laitkin säätävät ja rakenteet luovat.

  5. Mark

    Allan

    Reading through the archives it looks like every time when he has presented with evidence to the contrary he has never ever posted any corrections or even acknowledged he has been wrong. He just stubbornly continues writing things that are not true in a very aloof manner, so I can understand why the comments go personal.

    You undermine your points be making them absolutes. I’ve almost never seen a debate open up because people started throwing in absolutes. On the contrary, it usually marks a downturn in the quality of the debate, Allan.

    While I understand that immigrant issues are being brought up – but never issues about immigrants involved in anything bad – this does give the site a bias of immigrants= good, Finland & Finns =bad.

    Well, the problem as I see it, and you are as guilty as any about this, is that the issues that concern immigrants are not even entertained for a second. And in fact, the idea that the articles reflect on all Finns is an issue typically brought up by those criticising the article rather than being in the articles. And also, when it is repeatedly said that this is not brought up as a way to label all Finand and Finns as bad, that really has to be taken at face value. I don’t see you doing that Allan.

    It is not impartial at all.

    Who is impartial? Much of the discussion is subjective. And yet the subjectivity of some immigrants is being expressly denied. That is not right.

    While one can overcome this slant, then we come to the content. The facts behind the events are never portrayed in an impartial light, but everything is twisted to show the “racism”, which in most cases does not exist.

    And time and again I’ve seen people on here twisting obvious racism to try to portray it as something else. Look at Farang’s attempt to dismiss the death threat against Enrique on another thread for example, and look at your own lamentable attempts to dismiss the racism written about by Rebecka Holm, Allan?

    What I also see is some foreigners who do not know better read these fabrications and it feeds their own prejudices and paranoia. Facts are usually totally different.

    You are not known for presenting facts, Allan. I’ve very rarely seen you provide actual evidence.

    While I can understand why some people might get a bit hot-headed, in my bookmarks this is in the “humor sites” category as nobody can take all the absurd claims about Finland seriously. Keep up the good work!

    And while you do not take the issue of racism in Finland seriously, then you will not be welcome here Allan. It’s that simple. You have other ‘humour’ forums you can visit, I’m sure.

  6. Mark

    Sasu

    Oletko kuulus sellaisesta asiasta kuin rakenteellinen rasismi. Sillä tarkoitetaan sellaista rasismia joka toimii järjestelmän sisällä. Systeemit ja käytännös jotka vahvistavat rasistista maailmankatsomusta. Me voimme nähdä juuri sellaista rasismia joka puolella yhteiskuntaa. Valkoiset kutsuvat sitä helposti piilorasismiksi.

    I don’t disagree with this. I have written before about institutional racism. However, society as a construct is acted and performed by and through individual and collective individual behaviour. That would be my only qualification on your ideas.

  7. Göran

    Sasu

    Since you failed to answer where your history-knowledge derives from, sanoisin Sasu että, sä et ole käynyt suomalaista koulua Suomessa. Olet tod näk. jonkun netti-propagandan uhri

  8. Allan

    “You undermine your points be making them absolutes. I’ve almost never seen a debate open up because people started throwing in absolutes. On the contrary, it usually marks a downturn in the quality of the debate, Allan.”

    This is not a debate, this is facts. You go on and show me a recant of a posting? Can you find one? Of course I haven’t been through all the posts, but I would like to see where this kind of thing has happened.

    “And also, when it is repeatedly said that this is not brought up as a way to label all Finand and Finns as bad, that really has to be taken at face value.”

    Then why is this labelling done? I do not see that disclaimer anywhere, but I see a lot of claims to the contrary.

    “Much of the discussion is subjective.”

    So why then are you whining that I don’t come up with facts. Either you come up with facts, or everyone else can be as “subjective” as they want as well.

    “And time and again I’ve seen people on here twisting obvious racism to try to portray it as something else.”

    The thing is it is not “obvious” – your “obvious racism” is the same kind of “obvious” that a black guy in a hoodie loitering at a teller machine is “obviously criminal”. Yes, it can be racism, but then again you need to investigate the options, if you go “obvious” someone is bound to come point the “obviously not”.

    “You are not known for presenting facts, Allan. I’ve very rarely seen you provide actual evidence.”

    You find fairyfacts to your “subjective” fairytales?

    “And while you do not take the issue of racism in Finland seriously, then you will not be welcome here Allan.”

    I take racism seriously. However there is no “issue of racism in Finland”, there is a couple individuals making an issue of imaginary, sorry “subjective”, racism. Due to some misfortune thay live in Finland, but they would be inventing racism in any country they would be in, so I doubt they would be welcome anywhere.

  9. eyeopener

    Dear Allan.

    What you call facts are in most of the cases -because you do not support your claims with evidence- just BLABLABLA.

    As you consider yourself as an acknowledged person you should know. As you also know that eveidence doesnot come from statistics alone. Situational eveidence takes far more than that. But you already knwe that, Didn’t you?? So why persist in your illogical way!! Something to hide?? 🙂

    Here again. The labelling didn’t start from MT. You have been away a long time dear Allan. The labelling of THE FINNS or FINLAND derives from guys like Görän, Jossy, Hatessan etc.. Unfortunately they use undiscriminatively these concepts without understanding the meaning.

    English is a difficult language as you probably know!! Or maybe not!! Moving English comes quite close what these people use. (don’t come back with the blablabla again. behave a bit. if that is possible)

    YOU TAKE RACISM seriously. Whoooooaaaaahhh You can really make a horse laugh!!

    So simple

    Combat88 is your field of reasoning. Leave us alone!!

    BOEH!!

  10. Allan

    OK, Mark, I’ve actually been rummaging through the 2007 archive, and I am quite pleasantly surprised. The discussions in the beginning are quite informative and vibrant. I think the rabid response to the PerSu landslide seems to have effected the quality. Back in 2007 even Enrique writes “not everything that happens to a foreigner is necessarily racism”.

    • Migrant Tales

      Wow, Allan, you have to be joking. So I am now saying that everything that happens for a foreigner is racism? You guys always come up with amusing arguments. One of my favorites is being accused of hating Finland but the one you mentioned is in the top 5.

  11. Mark

    Allan

    This is not a debate, this is facts. You go on and show me a recant of a posting? Can you find one? Of course I haven’t been through all the posts, but I would like to see where this kind of thing has happened.

    You show me a posting that you felt strongly enough about that it should have been recanted. In the wider context, this is a debate.

    Mark said:

    “And also, when it is repeatedly said that this is not brought up as a way to label all Finand and Finns as bad, that really has to be taken at face value.”

    And Allan commented:

    Then why is this labelling done? I do not see that disclaimer anywhere, but I see a lot of claims to the contrary.

    Show me where this labelling has been done?

    Mark said:“Much of the discussion is subjective.”

    So why then are you whining that I don’t come up with facts. Either you come up with facts, or everyone else can be as “subjective” as they want as well.

    Allan, you have to start to behave yourself. This is just playing with words. You know full well there are times when ‘evidence’ is useful and other times when people’s subjective experience is important.

    The thing is it is not “obvious” – your “obvious racism” is the same kind of “obvious” that a black guy in a hoodie loitering at a teller machine is “obviously criminal”.

    Not a very good comparison, Allan. Of the two scenarios that I discussed with you, I think they were fairly obvious cases of racism. By the time you have finished with your apologism, then you would have us believe there is absolutely no possibility of racism. You have told a 14-year old girl to ‘grow up’ rather than accept that what she faces in the way of verbal abuse on public transport in Helsinki is racism. There is no starting point with you, Allan, and you have no credibility in my book to make this point. When YOU start discussing racism against non-whites in Finland, then I will pay attention to your claims.

    Yes, it can be racism

    This is a very rare acknowledgement coming from you, but i welcome it. Maybe that is a starting point for future discussions.

    However there is no “issue of racism in Finland”,

    Well, as long as you keep claiming this, I really cannot see how you can be taken seriously.

    Due to some misfortune thay live in Finland, but they would be inventing racism in any country they would be in, so I doubt they would be welcome anywhere.

    And this pretty much sums up your approach to discussions about racism.

  12. Mark

    Cascara

    You were indignated by secondary school -age children making fun of you? Grow a pair, will you.

    Grow a pair and take the death threats? Right….

  13. D4R

    Cascara: Dear Enrique,
    You will not be ridiculed when you stop being ridiculous. You were indignated by secondary school -age children making fun of you? Grow a pair, will you. This is the internet, get out from here if you can’t handle it. Also, learn finnish. It’s understandable to not bother with the local language if you are a temporary expat, but you have stuck around for how long?

    So, what is your suggestion for Enrique about the death threats they’re making about him in the internet? according to you that’s to be taken lightly right?

    • Migrant Tales

      D4R, I don’t know how Cascara past the troll detector. Pretty crafty but not enough.

  14. Allan

    This comment was removed because it contravened the House Rules

    Allan, you are welcome to re-post your comment without making personal attacks at the other commentators.

    This is how it’s going to be on my articles from now on.

  15. Allan

    “So, what is your suggestion for Enrique about the death threats they’re making about him in the internet? ”

    I suggest he imagines “Achmed the Dead Terrorist” making them. After all, internet is serious business.

  16. eyeopener

    Cascara?? Finnish name???

    “This is the Internet, get out from here if you can’t handle it!!!

    Is the Internet an excuse for you, Cascara, to insult people??

    Learn Finnish!!. Patronizing as well. Who are you to say so, dear Cascara (disguishing your nationaltiy!!)

    Where have you got stuck!!

    Simplicity is a joy for you, isn’t it??

  17. eyeopener

    This post was removed because it broke the House Rules

    Eyeopener, same applies to you on my threads. Keep it civil, mate!

  18. Allan

    I was more directing that at Mark, but the reference was to your 10 step program in “are you a target of racism in Finland” back in 2007. Yes, I think that you believe wholehertedly all that happens must be “racism” because thats what most of your article tags are these days. Yes, it could be, but most probably theres other explanations as well. But you go myopic on it being “racism”. And then you wonder why you are not taken seriously?

  19. eyeopener

    Hi Allan

    As a consultant in eyeopening: I can advice you a new spectacles!!.

    Your +7 glass on the left side needs correction towards 0.
    Your -10 of the right side could be changed to 0.

    Now you have a better, clearer, no-myopic view of the world around you.

    As a service from our company we will give you also (for free: always good for low-budget KELA funds) a container of anti-rubbish liquid to keep the glasses clear. And as a gadget: a little cloth to rub off the specs of informational dirt.

    Now you have a clear view ever. Be welcome to our SHOP

    Simply the best in Finland and in the world 🙂

  20. D4R

    This post was removed because it broke the House Rules

    Hi D4R – I know Allan is very provocative, but when he starts to make it personal, he’s comments are going to be deleted. Same applies to us too though.

  21. Foreigner

    Enrique, please take care of yourself. Threats of violence are not to be taken lightly, especially when those making those threats know who you are ;it stands to reason that if they know where you work, then most probably they know who you are.

    When I came to Finland, what I met shocked me. Here, I encountered some people who had very myopic, negative views of immigrants. I then wondered why no one in the immigrant community had the gonards to openly expose these wrongdoings. When I stumbled upon Migrant Tales, I breathed a sigh of relief; finally here was someone speaking on the immigants’ behalf!

    I do not see what you are doing as attacking Finns . It is more an attempt to shed light on the plight of immigrants here. It is a shame that you are being harrassed so excessively! Hope those harrasing you come to their senses and stop this madness!!!

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Foreigner, thank you for your kind words of support. Migrant Tales is a community effort that is possible thanks to people like yourself. I believe that the more we expose what you say the more support we will get. One day this wretched period will be history and what is normal today, racism and death threats, will be a sad reminder of how we once were as a society. Fortunately there are a lot of people in Finland who are just as shocked like you and I. The answer is simple: there must be a reaction. If there is no reaction, we must find better arguments and solutions.

      Thank you Foreigner and have nice day wherever you may be in Finland.

  22. Allan

    I think there was already a reaction in the parliamentary elections. Lets wait and see, there might be further reactions coming.

  23. Yossie

    Death threats and harrasment are all unacceptable and are not justified no matter what you think of Enrique’s blog or his writings

  24. Laputis

    I see that lately have interesting things happened to this blog and it’s author. I don’t support threats, and especially death threats. But I must say that many of the threats should be taken with grain of salt. I have personally received threats back in my country just because of my physical looks and ethnic background (not because I have had done something, like Enrique here). And most of those threats never came to life. So don’t worry too much, although you shouldn’t forget them.
    I can understand Finnish angriness about “Migrant tales” blog posts. There is really reason to dislike paranoidism, exaggerating, misunderstanding, overlooking and other things expressed here. I myself am dissapointed to read such blog, although I am an immigrant myself. This blog stands far away from objectiveness, in many places even smells from real paranoia (the linking a death of jumping-out-of-balcony immigrant in Oulu to death of shot teenager in USA is already a clear symptom).
    Also, this blog stands far, far away from concerns of preserving and continuing Old World ethnicities, and natural cultural and historical richness in Europe (and in Asia). Many people fight for these things, yet Migrant Tales is if not opposing them, then clearly doesn’t understand them. No wonder Migrant Tales is loosing potential supporters and friends (like me).

  25. Mark

    Yossie

    Death threats and harrasment are all unacceptable and are not justified no matter what you think of Enrique’s blog or his writings

    Thank you, Yossie!

  26. Mark

    Laputis

    I see that lately have interesting things happened to this blog and it’s author. I don’t support threats, and especially death threats. But I must say that many of the threats should be taken with grain of salt.

    You started so well, but then there just had to be a ‘but’. Yes, some threats can be taken with a pinch of salt, but when people are approaching your employer looking to slur your reputation and placing neo-Nazi stickers outside your home, then I think this the moment when the ‘pinch of salt’ becomes somewhat inadequate as a way of dealing with the situation.

    There is really reason to dislike paranoidism, exaggerating, misunderstanding, overlooking and other things expressed here. I myself am dissapointed to read such blog, although I am an immigrant myself. This blog stands far away from objectiveness, in many places even smells from real paranoia (the linking a death of jumping-out-of-balcony immigrant in Oulu to death of shot teenager in USA is already a clear symptom).
    Also, this blog stands far, far away from concerns of preserving and continuing Old World ethnicities, and natural cultural and historical richness in Europe (and in Asia). Many people fight for these things, yet Migrant Tales is if not opposing them, then clearly doesn’t understand them. No wonder Migrant Tales is loosing potential supporters and friends (like me).

    This blog stands up for the right of everyone to live free of discrimination. This blog understands paranoia as something that is inevitable when communities live with discrimination that is neither validated nor addresssed by a great many people. This blog seeks to give a voice to immigrants experiences, both good and bad. That is the objectiveness of this blog. This blog does not stand ‘far away from the concerns of preserving and continuing Old World ethnicities’. This is plainly a false claim. The position of this blog is to promote diversity and multiculturalism , which means plainly that ethnicities, whether old or new, should not be put in ‘competition’ with each other. Individuals have the right and freedom in Finland to express their ethnicity and to protect and preserve that ethnicity in any way they see fit, while respecting the laws of the land. This applies as much to expressions of the cultural majority as to the cultural minorities. Protecting the freedoms of minority groups protects the freedoms of all groups.

    If you consider that the ONLY way to protect the cultural and historical richness of Europe or Asia is to deny the free movement of peoples, then we are of different ilk, that is for sure Laputis. Europe places itself under threat by buying into the idea that our cultural traditions are weakened because we have to make way for other cultural identities. It has been said very well on this blog recently that an atheist in today’s world is as equally discriminated against by some of these ‘traditions of Europe’ as any native is by the religiousity of immigrants. There is clearly greater diversity within cultures than there is between cultures. That is the thing that separates our approach from yours Laputis.

  27. Mark

    Göran

    Which ethnic groups is discriminated and why and where?

    If you are interested in this topic, you do not need me to direct your investigations. Good luck!

  28. Mark

    Göran

    that was what I thought. no ethnic group is discriminated in Finland.

    Clearly if you are approaching this topic and the question you asked with this kind of pre-judgment, then it really is a waste of my time presenting you with statistics, reports, studies, individual testimony etc.

    If you are interested in the topic, then you are capable of doing some research for yourself.

    I value my time too much to start feeding your lust for discovering false positives or false negatives in the field of discrimination.

    The vast majority of sensible people would accept and understand that there are various kinds of racism and discrimination in Finland, as there is in any major population. That is also my opinion.

    However, your opinion is very unusual and very rare. The onus is really on you to support your very highly controversial assertion that ‘no ethnic group is discriminated in Finland’.

    It is this assertion that demands an explanation, not mine.

  29. Göran

    ok, I try to put it dfferently.

    By what statistic, study or other reported evidence can we confirm that we have discrimination of ethnicity, race, religion etc?

  30. Risto

    Hi Mark and Enrique and Migrant Tales

    I’m quite shocked by what has been happening to this blog over the last weeks. I think it is a good thing that you have filed a complaint for harassment Enrique.

    Death threats are a very serious issue and a crime.

    I’d like to express my sympathy for this article of yours Mark, i.e. I find it time for Migrant Tales to impose some ground rules for debate. Because some here are only trying to poison the debate, which leads to an overall poisonous atmosphere.

    I myself do not have to agree with every pouint made on this website, but please try and keep it courteous.

  31. Göran

    ”The onus is really on you to support your very highly controversial assertion that ‘no ethnic group is discriminated in Finland’.”

    ”It is this assertion that demands an explanation, not mine.”

    So in other words, guilty til you prove innocent.

  32. Laputis

    Mark

    “You started so well, but then there just had to be a ‘but’. Yes, some threats can be taken with a pinch of salt, but when people are approaching your employer looking to slur your reputation and placing neo-Nazi stickers outside your home, then I think this the moment when the ‘pinch of salt’ becomes somewhat inadequate as a way of dealing with the situation.”

    Even death threats often can be taken with grain of salt. It’s because people are afraid to really do their threats, or they just want to impress you (without doing real threat) or something like that.
    My family has been dealing with threats many, many times. Including death threats. And we still are alive and kicking (three knocks on table).

  33. D4R

    Göran: ok, I try to put it dfferently.

    By what statistic, study or other reported evidence can we confirm that we have discrimination of ethnicity, race, religion etc?

    Look, i’m evidence that there is a very much racism and discrimination in Finland, you don’t need no statistics, im here live and direct telling you that right now racism is exploding in hands.

  34. Göran

    D4R

    This was Mark’s assertion.

    ”This blog stands up for the right of everyone to live free of discrimination.”

    Can you D4R be more specific on racial discrimination as we for example can not confirm there is racial discrimination on the labour market by the white-black theory since there are many nationals from Africa who do well?

    Obviously the problem can’t be fixed if the people fixing the problem don’t know what you are talking about, right?

    • Migrant Tales

      –Obviously the problem can’t be fixed if the people fixing the problem don’t know what you are talking about, right?

      Are you implying that a black person living in Finland doesn’t know what racial discrimination is?

  35. eyeopener

    Indeed Görän.

    “So in other words, guilty til you prove innocent” That’s the WRONG way of legal reasoning. But you already said that you don’t have any legal knowledge.

    It is ” Innocent untill proven guilty”.

    It would be advisible dear Görän to update yourself on social sciences and get awy from your “rat-race thinking programs of Skinner cs.”

    It sometimes is so simple!!

  36. Sasu

    Tämä keskustelu vaikuttaa ihan samalta kuin How seriously should we take death threats in Finland? sivulla. Siis ihan turha huuto kilpailu
    Antaisin idean. Mitä jos me jotka haluamme taistella rasismia vastaan perustetaan oma foorumi joka on suljettu. Niin meidän ei tarvikse käydä samaa keskustelua aina vain uudestaan. Voitais keskustella siitä mitä me aijomme tehdä rasismille.

  37. Mark

    Göran

    Can you D4R be more specific on racial discrimination as we for example can not confirm there is racial discrimination on the labour market by the white-black theory since there are many nationals from Africa who do well?

    You have made absolutely no effort to confirm anything Göran. You have already stated your preposterous position that you think there is ‘no ethnic group is discriminated in Finland’.

    The spotlight is very much on you Göran to explain why you take a view that is held by probably less than 1 in 10,000 people. Your view on this can very obviously be characterised as extreme, so it’s up to you to back it up.

    If you to know about discrimination in Finland there are hundreds upon hundreds of sources for you to go to. D4R, don’t get dragged into doing his homework for him. He’s obviously baiting you.

  38. Allan

    “Look, i’m evidence that there is a very much racism and discrimination in Finland, you don’t need no statistics, im here live and direct telling you that right now racism is exploding in hands.”

    What exact kind of racism are we talking about? Can you give examples of this “exploding in hands”? Statistically, from the police reports it is said that somalians do the most reports about racism. Now I do wonder if somalians have a special detector installed or how does this work you detect so much racism? I think you should write about your average day and how much racism you face for us to appreciate your plight. Not being funny, either you live in a seriously bad neighbourhood or then I have been totally oblivious when I was last in Helsinki. Of course it may be we dont frequent the same places or hang around with the same kind of people, but what is it that makes the racism explode in the hands?

  39. Göran

    Mark

    ”The spotlight is very much on you Göran to explain why you take a view that is held by probably less than 1 in 10,000 people. Your view on this can very obviously be characterised as extreme, so it’s up to you to back it up.”

    I have never said that there is no racism. I asked you to explain it to me since it is hard for a whitee to see it. I do not do racism I do not face racism and if I personally am a target to racism I usually give a shit as long as nobody comes to my neck.

  40. Göran

    Migrant Tales

    here employment rates for 2010

    somali 13,2 %
    Irak 13,1 %
    Afghan 19,1
    form. Sudan 22,5

    Nepal 71,7 %
    Kenia 70,4 %
    Fin 69,6 %

    Unemployment for the Somalis have roughly been 50-65% during the past 15 years. I take the same reason as in Sweden when they carried out a study why Somalis fail work. The study revealed, Somalis do not want to work.

  41. Allan

    “Are you implying that a black person living in Finland doesn’t know what racial discrimination is?”

    Apparently so, as everything untowrds happening to them is “racism”. Ok, generalising here – not all black people. Theres immigrants and natives. But for someone not understanding the culture, what he percieves as discrimination might well be just how things are and society works. But you are generalising these issues being actual racial discrimination. Which doesn’t exist in Finland. Or do you go see in the bus “blacks only” seats?

  42. Mark

    I have never said that there is no racism.

    Oh, I’m so sorry. I thought you said this:

    that was what I thought. no ethnic group is discriminated in Finland.

    Perhaps I missed your subtle distinctions between ‘no racism’ and ‘no ethnic group discriminated in Finland’.

    I asked you to explain it to me since it is hard for a whitee to see it.

    Well, you could start by asking yourself and telling us what is your concept of human dignity?

  43. Mark

    Allan

    But you are generalising these issues being actual racial discrimination. Which doesn’t exist in Finland.Or do you go see in the bus “blacks only” seats?

    What you offer as an example of discrimination is actually an example of segregation. That is not the same thing, Allan. Discrimination can be subtle, and is as simple as an employer deciding that a visible minority job candidate is not suitable on no other grounds than ‘they will not fit in’.

  44. Mark

    Göran

    here employment rates for 2010

    somali 13,2 %

    In 2007 (i.e. before the latest recession), the employment rate for Somalis arriving in Finland between 1989-1993 was 58 per cent. In other words, only a longer-term picture will give you an accurate view of employment prospects.

    As it is, with an influx of immigrants, it is better that they enter the labour market in stages to avoid competition in the labour market with low-skilled Finnish workers. Following higher immigration levels from all areas, it follows that a ‘higher population’ leads in time to more job demands, as each of these citizens is a consumer and this generates job demands. The issue is managing this.

    The study revealed, Somalis do not want to work.

    I very much doubt that. Link to the report please, Göran.

    At the very least, I imagine that it said something like some Somalis, probably women, were not used to being in the labour market or having a status that is equal to that of men. If you also did your homework, you would know of several networks in Finland that are geared towards helping women from Somalia understand and realise their possibilities in Finland, run largely by other Somali women. I imagine you would have only good things to say about these organisations, but I won’t hold my breath.

  45. Göran

    Mark

    1st of April was yesterday. ”You have made absolutely no effort to confirm anything Göran. ”

    Equality for everybody. It is up to you if you do not want to participate, I won’t ask you again. I think it is up to those who face racism to clarify how it occurs. But you were not too willing to do that either when asked. 🙂 No racism was the conclusion of yours since you wanted to be grumpy instead of responding.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Equality for everybody. It is up to you if you do not want to participate, I won’t ask you again. I think it is up to those who face racism to clarify how it occurs.

      There are many examples of how racism occurs on this blog. If you rephrased your question: I would like to know what other people feel about racism and how it has affected them. Maybe that would encourage others to tell you. However, if you are doubting their word, there is little chance that you will get a friendly answer.

  46. Göran

    ”I very much doubt that. Link to the report please, Göran. ”

    Link is HS on paper. You can screen the past 15 or 20 years, it doesn’t change that much when it comes to Somali unemployment or employment.

  47. Mark

    Göran

    I think it is up to those who face racism to clarify how it occurs. But you were not too willing to do that either when asked.

    Yes, I wonder why? It’s very simple Göran, you come here with an agenda, barely feigning to be sincere towards immigrants, but nevertheless with your own preconceptions. Why else would you try to smear certain groups by posting statistics on employment rates, and then also withholding other statistical information that shows a different picture for Somalis following a period of integration?

    No racism was the conclusion of yours since you wanted to be grumpy instead of responding.

    No Göran, that is not my conclusion at all. I have told my stance in broad terms. Finland, like any of the countries of Europe, experiences racism in various degrees and in various ways, all of which have been documented by Finnish agencies and by foreign agencies, including the European Commission, the UNHRC and also Amnesty International. If you want to find out about it, it is not difficult.

    So, I will not sit here and give you the pleasure of deconstructing, denying, dismissing and denigrating immigrants for the benefit of your prejudice!!! No way! Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.

  48. Mark

    Göran

    Link is HS on paper. You can screen the past 15 or 20 years, it doesn’t change that much when it comes to Somali unemployment or employment.

    Nice to see that you rely almost entirely on media reports!

    Actually, a huge amount changes in the course of 15 or 20 years. Go check your HS stories if you like, they have documented it too. The employment rate jumps from under 10% to over 58% for Somalis.

    What you mean to say is that it doesn’t change your prejudiced opinions. No surprise there. You failed to answer the question about how you conceive of human dignity?

  49. Allan

    “Discrimination can be subtle, and is as simple as an employer deciding that a visible minority job candidate is not suitable on no other grounds than ‘they will not fit in’.”

    I would say that the employer does not look at the skin color, but at the person’s cultural background. Honestly though, I wouldn’t hire a black guy if I would have to be listening to whining about “racism” at everything hes told to do or told how to do things, as has happened. The whining I read here just makes my opinion stronger. Sorry, but you are doing it to yourself.

  50. Allan

    “Antaisin idean. Mitä jos me jotka haluamme taistella rasismia vastaan perustetaan oma foorumi joka on suljettu. Niin meidän ei tarvikse käydä samaa keskustelua aina vain uudestaan. Voitais keskustella siitä mitä me aijomme tehdä rasismille.”

    Hyvä idea Sasu, oma runkkupiiri samanmielisille. Vielä parempi idea, menkää avoimelle palstalle, jos hommaforum on liian hapokas, onhan vaikkapa todellisuus.org
    Ei kannata laittaa kynttilää vakan alle.

  51. Allan

    “At the very least, I imagine that it said something like some Somalis, probably women, were not used to being in the labour market or having a status that is equal to that of men. If you also did your homework, you would know of several networks in Finland that are geared towards helping women from Somalia understand and realise their possibilities in Finland, run largely by other Somali women. I imagine you would have only good things to say about these organisations, but I won’t hold my breath.”

    So what!? You are against multiculturalism!!! You have everything against these organizations, OK maybe not you, but Migrant Tales has been against integration and assimilation! Also, it is very traumatic to the Somali men as can be seen from their opinions of women being emancipated (I can dig that for you if you want). It is multiculturalism, we must celebrate the diverity. You are an evil racist trying to say the Somali culture must change!

  52. D4R

    Mark: If you to know about discrimination in Finland there are hundreds upon hundreds of sources for you to go to. D4R, don’t get dragged into doing his homework for him. He’s obviously baiting you.

    i know their little game, i got it under control.

  53. Allan

    come on now, i want some racism and xenophobia, like when you had to show the ticket in the machine that says ‘beep’, now if it was a black driver it shows green and if its a white driver it goes all red, and this is racism as they have a button they show the red for black guys don’t they?

  54. Göran

    Mark

    I answered your question. You can rely on your illusions what you want. One link for one answer.

    Human dignity, answer yourself if you need to. If you think somebody is failing to show that, say it out. Don’t hide it.

  55. Mark

    Allan

    I would say that the employer does not look at the skin color, but at the person’s cultural background.

    Since when did you speak for Finnish employers?

    Honestly though, I wouldn’t hire a black guy if I would have to be listening to whining about “racism” at everything hes told to do or told how to do things, as has happened. The whining I read here just makes my opinion stronger. Sorry, but you are doing it to yourself.

    There appears to be a deep contradiction in this statement. You seem to suggest that you don’t want to listen to this whining and that all you read here is whining and yet you come back again and again, regular as clockwork! My guess is that you would probably enjoy debating with a black guy face to face, but that you never had the courage to actually speak your mind. That’s my guess!

  56. eihannu

    Cba to read all but when we look Enriques definition on racism “if someone somewhere thinks its racism then it is (doestnt apply on whm) So of course there is shitload of racism….
    And that is actual definition enrique gave.

    • Migrant Tales

      Göran, I do believe that your conclusion is wrong. In the first place, an individual is not a group although we are social animals. Individuals have free will and a personality. This means that while we belong to a group, it is wrong to prejudice = prejudge that person as a group. What you are saying in effect with your argument is go back to your cage and don’t come out. This is the way I exclude you from the rest of society with the help of prejudice = prejudging who you are without even knowing you.

      Get it now?

  57. eihannu

    And Mark… his definition is curious. If i select one from group because of his face and attack her, its not necessarly racism….. It can be something else…. Also you cant protect her.

  58. Mark

    Göran

    One link for one answer.

    I didn’t see any links.

    Göran, your skepticism towards racism puts you in a tiny minority of people who do not think there is racism in Finland. I mean a really tiny minority. In fact, it’s fair to say that this puts you into the ‘extreme’ views category.

    My views are fairly mainstream. I believe there is racism in Finland, that it affects people’s job prospects, that it varies from mistrust or dislike of dark foreigners to outright ideological hatred on the basis of perceived cultural and biological superiority. My views would not be considered extreme at all. But yours would.

    You are still the one that needs to convince the majority of people that there is no discrimination against ethnic groups in Finland.

  59. Mark

    Allan

    So what!? You are against multiculturalism!!! You have everything against these organizations, OK maybe not you, but Migrant Tales has been against integration and assimilation!

    Allan, Migrant Tales is not against immigration. What it is against is assimilation that is dictated by a few intolerant thugs who are so afraid of the threat of cultural diversity that they demand foreigners give up any semblance of their own culture upon entering Finland.

    Also, it is very traumatic to the Somali men as can be seen from their opinions of women being emancipated (I can dig that for you if you want). It is multiculturalism, we must celebrate the diverity. You are an evil racist trying to say the Somali culture must change!

    Such oversimplifications, Allan. Asking for rights for women in Somalia or any country of the world is not inconsistent with condemning racism.

    Also, why are you ridiculing the idea of Somali men being traumatized? You do realise that there has been a Civil War in Somalia for the last twenty years? Are you really suggesting that because the cultural position of women is different in Somali that the people there are made immune to trauma?

  60. Göran

    two sorces saying comptletely different in the same year (2008), so I guess your source making a dive in statistics is not reliable.

    So who is not dignified here or why did you want to ask this question?

  61. Göran

    Mark

    ”My views would not be considered extreme at all. But yours would.” this is your opinion linked together with falsifying my comments. Some say it is illusion, others say it is paranoia.

  62. Allan

    “My guess is that you would probably enjoy debating with a black guy face to face, but that you never had the courage to actually speak your mind. That’s my guess!”

    No, I would enjoy debating with D4R for example, but i would not hire him, as the draconian workplace rules forbid any debate in a working environment.

  63. Mark

    Göran

    live in your illusions how you want. Don’t say things that I have NEVER SAID.

    You on the other hand, fail to answer any question. Who is not dignified here?

    He doth protest. You said this.

    that was what I thought. no ethnic group is discriminated in Finland.

    If you care to take this statement away, go ahead. Until you do, i am not in the least bit interested in playing your games. You have also suggested that you have not said racism does not exist in Finland, so tell me what racism does exist? Tell me what you base YOUR opinions on. So far, you have done absolutely nothing to suggest that an immigrant would have any confidence in your attitude towards immigrants.

    Like I said, perhaps you should swap skepticism of immigration for skepticism of populist politics for while, see how that hat fits.

  64. Allan

    “Also, why are you ridiculing the idea of Somali men being traumatized? You do realise that there has been a Civil War in Somalia for the last twenty years?”

    Yes, I ridicule them if they claim then to be on equal standing for the jobs. If they are traumatized, they should be in hospital. If they get further traumatized about their women getting emancipated, well, stay more in the hospital. Trying to be equal to us is ridiculous if they are traumatized, is it not?

  65. Allan

    “You have also suggested that you have not said racism does not exist in Finland, so tell me what racism does exist? Tell me what you base YOUR opinions on.”

    Metsä vastaa niin kuin sinne huudetaan.

    There is a lot of saying that people are “racist” when they don’t meet foreigners. OK, there is one very good set of articles of Hoimmaforum about a little village that got a refugee centre. At first, there was divided opinions. The old ladies made a knitting circle like in the olden days that made “wool socks to the poor heathens”, well the people actually would need them in Finland. The young men of the village of course opposed, natural competition for the girls. The girls of course were eager to get all multicultural, What happened – in a year the local old ladies had to close down the kirpputori as the centre tenants were pilfering it, the local discos had knife fights and the local girls were afraid to walk around without males protection.

    Well, now the centre closed, and the village is “racist” just due to the “meeting” of foreigners. Try stuff that into your pipe and smoke it.

  66. Göran

    well, Mark’s relation to this discussion is nonsense.

    The fact he presented has been argued that it is not true. By Somalis themselves.

    Somalis struggle to find jobs and all you say it’s racism. I disagree since other Africans with the same complexion do find jobs.Hmm, may be Finns have the sharpest eyes on earth to distinguish between a Ethiopians, Kenyans and Somalis.

    So, do Somalis, Afghans, Iraks, Iranians have the same race? Nope, but these groups struggle to find jobs. Nepal vs Afghans, Iranians? Rather same colour but only the other finds jobs. How come is it possible?

  67. Allan

    BTW the most clever immigrant ever is that one girl from Afghanistan (many peoples there) who was banned from any schooling by the Taliban, came virtuallu illiterate to Finland when she was 15, and “wrote” the YO. Now that is attitude and perseverance and I hope she never meets any of the “celebrating diversity” or “multicultural” men from Afghanistan this blog promotes.

  68. Göran

    Mark

    ”that was what I thought. no ethnic group is discriminated in Finland.”

    This was a conclusion on your answer since the question was incorrect. Or are you inable to read?

  69. Mark

    Allan

    Mark said: my views are fairly mainstream

    Allan said: Mark, maybe in the labor UK circles, not Finland.

    I don’t agree, Allan. I think the vast majority of Finns oppose racism, even if a lot of Finns have negative attitudes towards mass immigration. Or is that too nuanced for you? 😀

  70. Mark

    Göran

    This was a conclusion on your answer since the question was incorrect. Or are you inable to read?

    Well in that case, perhaps you shouldn’t have written ”that was what I thought!’

  71. Mark

    Allan

    Now that is attitude and perseverance and I hope she never meets any of the “celebrating diversity” or “multicultural” men from Afghanistan this blog promotes.

    This blog is in favour of female literacy throughout the world and would challenge any male, regardless of nationality, to appreciate the value of female literacy. However, I doubt that this statement will stop you from mispresenting the views of Migrant Tales or trying to make suggest that multiculturalism in some way is a banner under which different kinds of bigotry can prevail. Multiculturalism offers a framework of rights, and where the rights of women and girls are especially recognised and promoted. But I imagine that you just cannot bring yourself to accept that this would be true. Much easier to misrepresent multiculturalism.

  72. Mark

    Göran

    two sorces saying comptletely different in the same year (2008), so I guess your source making a dive in statistics is not reliable.

    i have shown you my source. The two sources are saying different things about immigration. Your sources quote the total population of Somalis, which includes a much larger proportion of recent immigrants. The source I quoted looked specifically at the employment rate of those that had been in Finland for 15-20 years, and showed the exact opposite of what you claimed, i.e. 58% employment rate. These figures were provided by the City of Helsinki via their Urban Facts unit. Go argue with them, mate.

  73. Göran

    Mark

    You do not seem too interested in topics risen by yourself nor by others. Racism or racial discrimination doesn’t touch you. You are more interested in to analize how questions should be asked instead of answering.

    I guess the Somali bros can’t count on your help when they might need it. Nor any other immigrant.

  74. Mark

    Göran

    The fact he presented has been argued that it is not true. By Somalis themselves.

    Somalis struggle to find jobs and all you say it’s racism. I disagree since other Africans with the same complexion do find jobs.Hmm, may be Finns have the sharpest eyes on earth to distinguish between a Ethiopians, Kenyans and Somalis.

    How many Kenyans are there in Finland Göran? How long have they been in Finland and under what circumstances have they come here? What general level of education do they have and what kinds of employment do they have?

    You cannnot make any realistic comparison between Somalis and Kenyans in Finland unless you can answer these questions. Can you answer them? Let’s see how long I have to wait for a detailed answer!!!! I won’t hold my breath…..

  75. Göran

    Mark

    I know that they have been shorter time than Somalis. Blandis has the educational data that we have not seen.

    There are sufficient nr of them to be valid in statistics. 100 is enough and there are much more.

    ”What general level of education do they have and what kinds of employment do they have? ”

    Go and ask them if you want to know how they work. You have along way, four nationalities to cover. GOOD LUCK!

    Unemployment means available for labour market whatever degree you have.

  76. Mark

    Allan

    There is a lot of saying that people are “racist” when they don’t meet foreigners. OK, there is one very good set of articles of Hoimmaforum about a little village that got a refugee centre.

    Yes, very reputable source, of course.

    At first, there was divided opinions.

    I guess this means that a proper survey was done of opinions towards foreigners? I mean, did this village reflect the 60% of Finns who have reported saying that they do not want to see immigrants coming from poorer countries outside Europe? (Eurobarometer) And how about the 78% of Finns that have reported they think they are at least a little bit racist (Scheepers et al. 2002.)

    Ugh, well, no, not exactly….

    The old ladies made a knitting circle like in the olden days that made “wool socks to the poor heathens”, well the people actually would need them in Finland. The young men of the village of course opposed, natural competition for the girls. The girls of course were eager to get all multicultural.

    Not any surveys. Just reports of old ladies knitting socks ‘for the poor heathens’, the young men being opposed, and the girls eager to get all multicultural. Hmmm, sounds like a very thorough survey of existing opinions in regard to foreigners. In fact, sounds exactly like the kind of nuanced and comprehensive investigation that Hommaforum is well-known for.

    What happened ….

    Ah, this is the part where you look at actual results: I.e. the numbers of immigrants, how long they stayed in the reception centre, where they went to afterwards, what kinds of integration plans they had, what kind of employment they received, what kinds of local initiatives were geared to helping them integrate etc. etc.

    Ugh, well, no actually….

    – in a year the local old ladies had to close down the kirpputori as the centre tenants were pilfering it, the local discos had knife fights and the local girls were afraid to walk around without males protection.

    The kirpputori closed down. Any evidence that it was linked to theft? A newspaper article confirming it? Or was it local rumour? Or was there once an incident with one immigrant, and news of it quickly spread through the village? Did Hommaforum investigators also ask if there had ever been any other instances of shopliftinig in the village? Ever?

    A few fights down the local disco – I guess those young men soon got busy showing the foreigners who owned the local lasses. So who had the knives? The foreigners or the Finns? I know Finns like their knives, after all.

    And the local girls were afraid to walk around without male protections – what was that down to then? One rape, one rapist? Ten rapes? A sexual assault? What exactly? What was the evidence accumulated in these fantastic Hommaforum articles?

    On top of that, what is the normal rate of rape in that village, weighted of course to the same young demographic of the immigrants? How many rapes by Finns went unreported in this village, but which didn’t lead to fear on the streets, but actually unspoken fear in the homes, because the perpetrators were members of their close social network?

    Did Hommaforum discuss those issues in regard to this village? Let me guess, they were too busy patting themselves on the back for the thoroughness of their research that revealed immigrants were savage sexual predators, who all stalked the local discos armed with knives, and who raided the local second hand shop until it went out of business? Yep, sounds like the typical Hommaforum analysis.

    Thanks Allan for bringing that to our attention! Any further details would be interesting.

  77. Göran

    Sasu

    ”Antaisin idean. Mitä jos me jotka haluamme taistella rasismia vastaan perustetaan oma foorumi joka on suljettu. Niin meidän ei tarvikse käydä samaa keskustelua aina vain uudestaan. Voitais keskustella siitä mitä me aijomme tehdä rasismille.”

    Pisteet kotiin Sasu. Aika lähellä Pohjois-Korea mentaliteettia.

  78. Mark

    Göran

    I know that they have been shorter time than Somalis. Blandis has the educational data that we have not seen.

    So, you don’t know then, but you know someone that knows, though you don’t know what that someone knows. OH, and actually that data they have isn’t about how long they’ve been here or what they do, but just their educational data. But you cannot tell me that, because you don’t have that either.

    So, you have …. no data.

    There are sufficient nr of them to be valid in statistics. 100 is enough and there are much more.

    So, you think there must be more than a 100, or else they wouldn’t show up in the statistics, but you have absolutely no idea how many, so you will just guess it’s ‘much more’.

    ”What general level of education do they have and what kinds of employment do they have? ”

    Go and ask them if you want to know how they work. You have along way, four nationalities to cover. GOOD LUCK!

    So, what does this mean? You don’t know, so I have to go and find out for you? Oh boy….

    Unemployment means available for labour market whatever degree you have.

    Oh, okay. Well I guess that’s useful information, thanks for that. But I cannot apply it to anything, because you didn’t actually supply ANY data at all.

    Göran, I have to say I think you were very brave to present this as a kind of answer. This is what is generally called in the UK, as trying to get by on a ‘wing and a prayer’.

    In other words, you have absolutely no data, no idea about any of the Kenyans living and working in Finland, and yet you still feel that you can make a meaningful comparison with Somalis?

    Oh dear…..

  79. Mark

    Göran

    Are you drunk? This is taken directly from the HS article:

    For the Somalis who came to Finland in the first wave, in 1989-1993, the employment rate in 2007 was 58 per cent, according to a study which is being prepared at the Urban Facts department of the City of Helsinki.

    So, what part was INCORRECT?

  80. Mark

    Göran

    You have not explained why it was incorrect. I supplied the quote for the statistic, in full. So what’s your problem?

  81. D4R

    Mark: Göran

    You have not explained why it was incorrect. I supplied the quote for the statistic, in full. So what’s your problem?

    Göran ran out of B.S statistic so cat got his toungue out, now he ran to his >Hommaforum peer to ask for more of a tsiasted fale stattistics lol. This is so typo of them, once they’re pointed them of being wrong they get silent, no reply.

  82. Göran

    Mark

    what you wrote doesn’t correspond to the link you gave in my previous comment.

    You shouldn’t make this blog personal. ”There is racism in Finland” is not much of an answer if you want to solve the problem.

    Racism is also two-way communication or actions.

  83. Mark

    Göran

    what you wrote doesn’t correspond to the link you gave in my previous comment.

    I think you need to read more than the first 2 lines of the article I linked to, Göran. 😀

    You shouldn’t make this blog personal. ”There is racism in Finland” is not much of an answer if you want to solve the problem.

    That’s funny, because I seem to be the one advocating to make it less ‘personal’. And since when did I present ‘there is racism in Finland’ as the answer to the problem of racism?

    Göran, you have been baiting people here trying to get them to give you examples of racism with the sole purpose of discrediting them. Your posts to date confirm this.

    Not only that, but you are very happy to use meaningless statistical comparisons to try to convince people that there is something ‘wrong’ with Somalis.

    You are not a person I want to discuss incidents of racism with. You denigrate people and nationalities, you show absolutely no concept of human dignity, and you fail miserably to respond to the fallacies pointed out in your own statistics and arguments.

    If you were genuinely interested in racism, you would have found out about it by now. It appears abundantly clear to me that you are not interested in understanding racism, but are quite keen to perpetuate it. You will never be a friend of mine, Göran, and I will never give you the satisfaction of trying to ‘prove’ racism to you. That is an indignity that you should not be indulged.

  84. Göran

    SO Mark. Since you like to talk about yourself and what you have said and what you haven’t said why don’t you tell us the full story.

    Better that you talk about YUORSELF since answers to questions is not really your area.

  85. Göran

    Mark

    ”Not only that, but you are very happy to use meaningless statistical comparisons to try to convince people that there is something ‘wrong’ with Somalis. ”

    As stated yesterday, your approach is to ignore immigrants and their problems. Fair enough, so they don’t count on your help. Apparently you are unable to see outside yourself.

  86. Mark

    Göran

    SO Mark. Since you like to talk about yourself and what you have said and what you haven’t said why don’t you tell us the full story.

    Better that you talk about YUORSELF since answers to questions is not really your area.

    Yep, you failed to provide any data to back up your claim that Somalis don’t want to work compared to Kenyans, so now you want to make it about me and my psyche. Wonderful.

    Go fishing somewhere else, Göran. I’m not going to be your whipping boy today.

  87. Göran

    so, tell us Mark

    How big is your ego? Too big and too great that you make things personal and start talking about things you fail to follow.

    Societies have enough of people like you who think about their own land, to whom the thruth hurts so much. People who do everything to avoid answering hard and soft questions, who constantly falsify others words in order to run their own benefits.

    What is the name of your club Mark?

  88. Mark

    Göran

    so, tell us Mark

    How big is your ego? Too big and too great that you make things personal and start talking about things you fail to follow.

    Göran, you failed to provide even a single statistic to support your comparing of Somalis to Kenyans. I have no interest in making this personal with you, but clearly you have an interest in doing so with me.

    Societies have enough of people like you who think about their own land, to whom the thruth hurts so much. People who do everything to avoid answering hard and soft questions, who constantly falsify others words in order to run their own benefits.

    You are wondering off into ravings Göran. Is it that painful to be caught with your pants down over your prejudices?

    What is the name of your club Mark?

    Sorry, I don’t get you?

  89. D4R

    Görän: How big is your ego? Too big and too great that you make things personal and start talking about things you fail to follow.

    Societies have enough of people like you who think about their own land, to whom the thruth hurts so much. People who do everything to avoid answering hard and soft questions, who constantly falsify others words in order to run their own benefits.

    What is the name of your club Mark?

    Instead docking and dodging what’s being asked you, why don’t you provide and back up your claims and show us the statistics you keep throwing back and forth?
    to me you seem to have no evidence for your bullshyt, see you have been proven wrong again and again, everyone can see it just scrolling up,you lost the discussion, bullshit doesnt reach far, you myfriend are vomiting alot bullshit, now crawl back my friend to wherever you came from.

  90. Göran

    So Mark, why are you trying to make this personal? Is it your desire to do so?

    Ethiopians and Kenyans are world class in long distance running. Is it surprise that these groups do well in Finland on other levels? Is racism the answer?

    So again, Mark.

    Why do these and other African nationalities do so much better in Finland than Somalis?

    Is it outragous to think that it is the same answer as in Sweden?

    You can compare Somalis with Kenyans, but include also then Etiopians, Nigerians, Ghanans.

  91. Mark

    Göran

    You suggested that Ethiopians and Kenyans do better in Finland than Somalis and that the reason for that is that they don’t want to find work. You then quoted a statistic showing the employment rate for Somalis.

    However, you didn’t take into account that it takes several years for Somalis to reach a point where they can fully contribute their time, talents and energy to Finnish society. When you do take this into account, you find the employment rate has jumped to 58%

    However, you carried on saying that Ethiopians and Kenyans are doing better, and that because they look the same (apparently) as Somalis, then it cannot possibly be down to race.

    However, once again, the question about employment rates relates to how long a population of immigrants has been resident in Finland, what kind of circumstances they arrived in (was it from a civil war zone?), what qualifications they had, what other skills they had that helped them integrate (did they speak English for example, like most Kenyans?).

    The simple fact is, if there are only 100 Kenyans in Finland and they’ve been here mostly for 30 or 40 years, then one might not be surprised if they have a good employment rate. So really, if you are going to compare, then you really really really should know something about those of Kenyan origin living in Finland.

    So, when asked to produce some data, you provided ……. drumroll …… absolutely zilch. Therefore there was absolutely no basis for you to make a comparison with this group. And so far you have produced no data for any of the other groups that you mentioned.

    Now if you also have no data for any of the other groups you mentioned, then clearly the entire basis for your comparison is extremely suspect, and one has to ask oneself why and how did you arrive at the opinions that you did.

    Now there is no distortion of your views in this. There is an argument that you made and which you so far have been unable to substantiate with any facts. I have not distorted your words, but simply asked you to show me how you arrived at your conclusions.

    Nevertheless, since calling you out on this, you have seen fit to attack my personality, my world view, my ego, my values, my interests etc. All, i assume, with the express intention of drawing attention away from your own failing to produce this data.

    Sorry Göran, but I am not here to answer your questions at your beck and call. Go find another stooge.

  92. Göran

    Mark

    You chose the path to make this personal. Nobody forced you to do so. You should let facts, issues and arguments argue, not people. You claim differently but you don’t follow your own path, so if you are allowed to make it purposefully personal then others can ask you personal questions as well. It is totally madness how you relate yourself to this discussion. It was one simple question that you started to be like a teenager with. Others asked you the question but you had already decided that you won’t answer. The best would be that you make it clear that it is offensive to ask you questions and making questions on your statements, since that it is about you.

    If you are sick and traumatized or learn the language, you are not included in the unemployment rate/figure.

    I don’t know what data you are talking about, if you want four nation education data, look it up. You are not helpless, BlandaUpp has it.

  93. D4R

    Görän: Why do these and other African nationalities do so much better in Finland than Somalis?

    Görän, what do you think is the reason?

  94. Göran

    D4R

    if you had shown more solidarity to your countrymen there would be more Somalis on Finland, now municipalities are out of money and not taking asylum seekers. Those who have lived for years on welfare can console themselves with that there are 10 000 Somalis stuck on camps, nowhere to go.

  95. Allan

    Görän: Why do these and other African nationalities do so much better in Finland than Somalis?

    Görän, what do you think is the reason?

    I know what you think is the reason – racism. Nothing got to do with anything else, its always racism.

  96. Mark

    Göran

    You chose the path to make this personal. Nobody forced you to do so.

    What is this nonsense you are writing? One of the main points of the blog entry was to call for a debate where we stick to the topic and don’t make it personal. I have not made any attacks on you, though I cannot say that the same is true of you in regard to me.

    You should let facts, issues and arguments argue, not people.

    Göran, facts are contested, issue and arguments are clouded by prejudice and bias. I know full well what your position is and I have NO interest in trying to convince you what racism is. There are some people who you can consider to be skeptical but open minded. In my mind you are not one of them. Fine. I have no interest in trying to convince you about racism or about what it is. Call me lame, but I simply see it as a waste of my time.

    You claim differently but you don’t follow your own path, so if you are allowed to make it purposefully personal then others can ask you personal questions as well.

    Rubbish. You are living in cloud cuckoo land. Show me where i have made it personal against you?

    It is totally madness how you relate yourself to this discussion. It was one simple question that you started to be like a teenager with.

    Since when was making a decision not to debate with somebody the action of a teenager? I would say that your pouting and hysteria are more in keeping with teenage behaviour!

    Others asked you the question but you had already decided that you won’t answer. The best would be that you make it clear that it is offensive to ask you questions and making questions on your statements, since that it is about you.

    Why is it so difficult to understand that it is MY freedom to decide who I will debate with and on what terms I will debate something. The way you have come to this blog and made demands, that YOU are shown what racism is, while all the while expressing your thought that racism against ethnic groups does not exist in Finland (God knows what you have to say about Finnish Roma!) and expecting us to come and serve you up racism on a plate, only to see you ridicule and mock it. I personally will not give you that satisfaction of practicing your prejudice. But you are not content to hear a NO. You do not respect the word NO. Speaks volumes about your approach to life, mate.

    If you are sick and traumatized or learn the language, you are not included in the unemployment rate/figure.

    Incoherent!

    I don’t know what data you are talking about, if you want four nation education data, look it up. You are not helpless, BlandaUpp has it.

    I see. So you don’t actually read my posts then? You made a statement comparing employment rates of Somalis to other nations, in Africa and elsewhere. I was happy to point out that the short-term conclusions you draw from those statistics are flatly contradicted by other statistics from Finland, to which you were directed to a source. On top of that, I pointed out that for your comparison to have any validity, it must be shown that like is being compared with like, we must know how many Kenyans there are in Finland, when they came, what skills and education they had in comparison to Somalis.

    You provided only excuses and NO DATA. Which is fine. That pretty sums up your contribution to the debate.

  97. D4R

    Allan: I know what you think is the reason – racism. Nothing got to do with anything else, its always racism.

    You don’t know what i think so stop being childish, and let Görän answer it unless you want to try wich i doubt you’re capable of.

  98. Mark

    Allan

    I know what you think is the reason – racism. Nothing got to do with anything else, its always racism.

    Pointless, pointless, pointless. Why are you throwing around slogans like this? No-one here thinks for one second that it is ONLY racism that causes difficulties for immigrants. Immigrants find it hard to compete in terms of language skills, education, experience and knowledge of the Finnish ‘sector’. This is also where Finland must realise that to integrate immigrants, then at some point, they need to give them a break. Throwing people into an open labour market is all very well, but if some of those workers are immediately disadvantaged, then it really is a huge waste of time to complain that they are not getting the jobs. Several factors exist and need to be tackled.

    Your mockery and your ridicule do nothing to advance this debate. It only shows that you pay no attention to what we actually believe and think. Rather you try at every turn to undermine the value of racism as an issue by mocking at every turn. You are like someone in a theatre shouting ‘he shouted fire, he shouted fire’. And when there is a fire – no-one moves. Shout racism enough, whether it reflects our opinions or not, and you hope that the word will lose all meaning. You certainly have absolutely NO interest in the meaning of racism from the point of view of those expressing it.

    You are like those people that call depression ‘people feeling sorry for themselves’, and say, ‘get a grip’. Like you said to 14-year old Rebecka – ‘grow up’. This is your attitude and it stinks, it stinks of lack of empathy, of humanity, of dignity and of plain common sense. You are not debating, you are smearing and condescending.

    But you won’t change. We’ve been around this issue a hundred times already on here. You were attacked by an immigrant once and robbed and that has coloured every thought you ever had about black immigrants since.

  99. Göran

    Mark

    ” Which ethnic groups is discriminated and why and where?”

    ”If you are interested in this topic, you do not need me to direct your investigations. Good luck”

    Why are you taking part in discussion then? Wouldn’t it be better to make clear that you are NOT AVAILABLE for discussion?

    So far there was no response on the discrimination nor on your human dignity nor indignity stuff. All the following questions regarding Kenyans (why Kenyans) if they are your only concern you have to look up yourself, IF you feel some responsability.

    But you have no interest in how people are doing, you are just interested in yourself and what you say or not.

  100. D4R

    Mark: You are like those people that call depression ‘people feeling sorry for themselves’, and say, ‘get a grip’. Like you said to 14-year old Rebecka – ‘grow up’. This is your attitude and it stinks, it stinks of lack of empathy, of humanity, of dignity and of plain common sense. You are not debating, you are smearing and condescending.

    Exactly Mark, this is so true, if immigrant is in a difficult situation where he faces discrimination then comes people like Allan who accuses them of that situation being their fault, like for stanstance imigrant complains about injustices or that he got attacked then comes a type of Allan who tells them to leave if he can’t stand the heat, it’s just ubsurd, we should ask Allan what can he do to help us tackle racism.

  101. D4R

    Görän:Mark

    ” Which ethnic groups is discriminated and why and where?”

    ”If you are interested in this topic, you do not need me to direct your investigations. Good luck”

    Why are you taking part in discussion then? Wouldn’t it be better to make clear that you are NOT AVAILABLE for discussion?

    So far there was no response on the discrimination nor on your human dignity nor indignity stuff. All the following questions regarding Kenyans (why Kenyans) if they are your only concern you have to look up yourself, IF you feel some responsability.

    But you have no interest in how people are doing, you are just interested in yourself and what you say or not.

    Görän, there is something seriously deficient in your understaning

  102. Mark

    Why are you taking part in discussion then? Wouldn’t it be better to make clear that you are NOT AVAILABLE for discussion?

    I’m available to certain people who are approaching this debate with an open mind and a respectful attitude. There are skeptics who genuinely have questions, who have absorbed some of the ideas and concerns about immigration that have filtered into the public domain, and I’m happy to talk to them. I’m no expert, but perhaps I know more than average about some of the issues. I’m certainly happy to consider different issues and look for insights, understanding and ways forward.

    But with you Göran, I just didn’t think you were one of those people. I didn’t make a big deal out of it, I just reserve the right to say NO to you. You can choose just as much to not engage me in debate.

    But you have no interest in how people are doing, you are just interested in yourself and what you say or not.

    Yeah, Göran, if you say so, I’m sure it must be true! Muppet!

  103. Göran

    Mark

    Your approach is to run away when things are not presented in ”your way.” I will not give the sympathy Mark is begging for.

    May be your testosterone level is low Mark?

  104. Mark

    Göran

    Your approach is to run away when things are not presented in ”your way.”

    Göran, I don’t like you. Get over it!

    I will not give the sympathy Mark is begging for.

    Good, I don’t need your sympathy.

    May be your testosterone level is low Mark?

    What a bloody berk you are 😀 How can you moan and moan about me making it personal (hasn’t produced any evidence of that, of course), and then say things like this?

    But, this is really what annoys me about this debate and these comments. People like yourself Göran attempt to drag the debate down to this level. So, here’s your first warning, any more attacks on me and your posts get deleted. Okay. You’ve had fair warning and you’ve clogged up this comment thread enough with your inanities.

  105. Göran

    evidence, your answer on the first question you were offended on a personal level. Questions are too hard, you are right, we live in a new era. 🙂

  106. Mark

    Göran

    You are hilarious.

    evidence, your answer on the first question you were offended on a personal level. Questions are too hard, you are right, we live in a new era. 🙂

    This was your first question: Which ethnic groups is discriminated and why and where?

    And I suggested you carry out your own studies. I had seen your answers on other posts, and I had a pretty good idea what your game was, and I just didn’t want to play. I wasn’t offended in the slightest.

    Indeed, your reply to me was ample evidence that my idea was pretty spot on:

    that was what I thought. no ethnic group is discriminated in Finland.

    ”even smells from real paranoia”…

    You took my suggestion to investigate racism as being a lack of evidence and jumped immediately to the conclusion that there was no discrimination against ethnic groups and likewise, just for good measure, threw in the ‘smells like paranoia’, like I didn’t already know that you dismiss racism as just paranoia.

    And then, in amongst the various pouting and histrionics because I choose not to answer your question, you begin slurring Somalis, Afghans and Iraqis, presenting employment data that on the surface might appear to justify your charge of laziness among Somalis, but which when put into proper perspective rather reveal the prejudice that was the basis for your conclusions.

    You thought that because Kenyans and other African and Asian groups have high employment rates, that you could use this against Somalis. However, And you were really cock a hoop about these ‘facts’, again, demanding an answer.

    The answer you got effectively left you with trousers around your ankles. You were making comparisons between different groups without having ANY data on that group except their employment. You couldn’t even say how many Kenyans there are in Finland or how long they’ve been here. You were fucking stumped, Göran. No Google to come to your rescue, either, because the data doesn’t appear on the front pages.

    So, what did you do then? Then you started to bait me, insult me over and over, repeating and playing this ‘let’s make it personal about Mark and his ego’.That’s fine, if that is all you have left, then it really really does show how shallow and superficial your arguments have been.

    So, stop trying to win back some credit with your Hommaforum buddies by continuing to repeat the same hollow message. I will not debate with you and that is final. You can ask until the cows come home. If you want to know about discrimination, you can jolly well go and find out.

  107. Göran

    MARK

    ”SÄÄLI ON SAIRAUTTA” believe me already, you will not get it of me. Ask others to give pity to you.

    I have immigrant background so you are free to continue to make a fool out of yourself. Because of my ethnicity you are free to ask how I have been discriminated, or are you too busy running your propaganda?

    Mark, the boat is FULL and the Somalis can blame themselves. They have brought an unseen criminal wave, mass unemployment on Finnish soil. These activities have been so expensive through the years that the municipal economies are literally down, following with refusal to take additional asylum seekers. There are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands Somalis who are stuck in camps waiting for green light.

    The new tax reforms will put further pressure on municipalities so you see the current trend. It is not too late to open your eyes. Nor the Somalis, though it will take a generation to fix the problems.

    Laziness is only in your head, it is called illusion or paranoia. It is NOT in this thread. I will call it selfishness, refering to the facts above. Those who don’t want to contribute so that people suffering will get it better.

    500+ of all nationalities mentioned acc. Tilastokeskus in Finland.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Mark, the boat is FULL and the Somalis can blame themselves. They have brought an unseen criminal wave, mass unemployment on Finnish soil.

      Görän this is pretty prejudiced what you are saying to put it lightly. These are all you prejudiced view of a group. If you feel so strongly about it, why don’t you go an prove it in a university? Or better yet, why don’t you get a researcher to sign what you said: group x are criminals, lazy bums etc..

      If you want to see where prjeudice and racism live, it lives in that comment. It is festering there in an undercurrent where the source is, yes, nobody else but yourself.

  108. Göran

    ‘Terrorismin rahoittamisesta epäillyt ovat Somalian kansalaisia’

    ‘Suomen Somalit’ (Wiki)

    ”Hannu Niemen tutkimuksesta voidaan laskea, että Suomessa asuviin Somalian kansalaisiin kohdistuvia rikosepäilyjä on väkilukuun suhteutettuna lähes kolminkertainen määrä suomalaisiin verrattuna.”

    On Eu-level they asked at some point why Finland is not willing to take more seekers. That was the answer given.

    I am fine here, that was just an incentive if they felt solidarity for their countrymen. Apparently they should not feel.

  109. Mark

    Göran

    ”SÄÄLI ON SAIRAUTTA” believe me already, you will not get it of me. Ask others to give pity to you.

    You are living in your own special universe my friend. I am not asking ANYTHING of you.

    I have immigrant background so you are free to continue to make a fool out of yourself. Because of my ethnicity you are free to ask how I have been discriminated, or are you too busy running your propaganda?

    Since when does being an immigrant or having an immigrant background automatically mean that you cannot be a racist? For your information, we all have an ‘ethnicity’. Am I interested in the discrimination against you? Maybe. But I hardly think your attempts to smear Somalis and other Africans is going to make me particularly sympathetic.

    They have brought an unseen criminal wave, mass unemployment on Finnish soil.

    Urban myths. Finland last faced ‘mass unemployment’ during the early 90s and that had NOTHING to do with immigrants. You are extremely ill-informed, Göran.

    There are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands Somalis who are stuck in camps waiting for green light.

    Chill out, Göran, Finland isn’t going to fall apart any time soon.

    It is not too late to open your eyes.

    You sound like an end-of-world doom merchant!

    Those who don’t want to contribute so that people suffering will get it better.

    Let’s see now, this blog contributes by promoting tolerance, an acceptance of diversity both within and between cultures, and also a better understanding of the voice of immigrants in Finland. Let’s see, what are you contributing? Urban myths, prejudice against Africans, personal insults against anyone who refuses to play your games.

    500+ of all nationalities mentioned acc. Tilastokeskus in Finland.

    Ohh…bless him, he’s finally doing some research.

  110. D4R

    Görän: Mark, the boat is FULL and the Somalis can blame themselves. They have brought an unseen criminal wave, mass unemployment on Finnish soil. These activities have been so expensive through the years that the municipal economies are literally down, following with refusal to take additional asylum seekers. There are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands Somalis who are stuck in camps waiting for green light.

    Görän. you’re a liar with a capital L, show us your evidence that Somalis have brought so much crime waves? where is your statistics, and also where is the evidence that Somalis are the cause of the economic downfall?

  111. Göran

    Mark

    ”Let’s see, what are you contributing? Urban myths, prejudice against Africans, personal insults against anyone who refuses to play your games.”

    ”Am I interested in the discrimination against you? Maybe.” Belevie me, I will NOT play your discrimination game and your request path for pity. Sääli on sairautta, the more you play it the more will it increase on your inner organs.

    It is people like you Mark who are the problem. Deny, reject circle around..no solution. Questions indicating solutions are toxic for you Mark.

    Immigrants are not to blame, the poor politicians and those who support that madness.Or refuse to understand that things happen.

    Sorry, I meant mass employment among the Somalis not in Finland. Forgot a word, try to be constructive next time and ask instead of your normal bang bang-judging.

    Perhaps Enrique declaired himself xenophobic with the Belgian dude since he made no interest to point out that it wasn’t a Finn.

    ”So, now I am “xenophobic” according to you because you approve a politician saying that it’s ok to kill a Muslim woman because it would be one less woman giving birth to a child of that religion? ” I think it is xenophobic, what do you think? If not, why are people treated differently?

    • Migrant Tales

      –It is people like you Mark who are the problem. Deny, reject circle around..no solution.

      So, Göran, what is the solution. How do we build a society that is acceptant of others and where everyone is entitled to equal rights?

      The “Belgian dude” you are speaking of is a naturalized Finn.

  112. Göran

    D4R

    ‘Terrorismin rahoittamisesta epäillyt ovat Somalian kansalaisia’

    ‘Suomen Somalit’ (Wiki)

    ”Hannu Niemen tutkimuksesta voidaan laskea, että Suomessa asuviin Somalian kansalaisiin kohdistuvia rikosepäilyjä on väkilukuun suhteutettuna lähes kolminkertainen määrä suomalaisiin verrattuna.” (years 1997-2006)

  113. D4R

    Görän: D4R

    ‘Terrorismin rahoittamisesta epäillyt ovat Somalian kansalaisia’

    ‘Suomen Somalit’ (Wiki)

    ”Hannu Niemen tutkimuksesta voidaan laskea, että Suomessa asuviin Somalian kansalaisiin kohdistuvia rikosepäilyjä on väkilukuun suhteutettuna lähes kolminkertainen määrä suomalaisiin verrattuna.” (years 1997-2006)

    Görän,. im a Somalian so does that make me a terrorist? Görän remmeber that guy who killed a swedeish couple back in 90’s his name is Nikita fouganthine, now that guy is what i call a terrorist, Görän i want to ask you a question, ARE YOU A TERRORIST? the reason im asking you this is because you share same nationality with Nikita Fouganthine, so are you like him yes or no, simple question, don’t duck and dodge the question, asnwer me

  114. D4R

    Görän, are you a pedophile? because Jammu Setä the guy who raped and murdered those two innocent girls was a Finn by nationality, IM ASKING YOU GÖRÄN ARE YOU A RAPIST, MURDERED PEDOPHILE JUST LIKE HIM?

  115. Göran

    Migrant Tales

    ”The “Belgian dude” you are speaking of is a naturalized Finn.”

    Just like me. Naturalized Finn with a Russian grandfather. Despite, it is easy to say that in many ways Russians are the worst gangstas on earth. No personal affection, just to see and observe how they conduct crimes, do politics consider women.

    Dunno how to solve racism.

    May be look at other aspects in life. Take a time-out and see, what can I personally do to reduce racism, stay consistent in the matter, always come up with my view and not anybody else’s. May be those who are/who feel they are targets for racism to walk into the ministry and ask the ultimate people in charge what should be done to change the current course or to get a more sustainable permanent solution/target for everybody.

  116. Mark

    Göran

    Belevie me, I will NOT play your discrimination game and your request path for pity. Sääli on sairautta, the more you play it the more will it increase on your inner organs.

    WFT????

    It is people like you Mark who are the problem. Deny, reject circle around..no solution. Questions indicating solutions are toxic for you Mark.

    I’m happy to be your problem, Göran!

    Immigrants are not to blame, the poor politicians and those who support that madness.Or refuse to understand that things happen.

    Incoherent

    Sorry, I meant mass employment among the Somalis not in Finland. Forgot a word, try to be constructive next time and ask instead of your normal bang bang-judging.

    Well, I’ve done the same. No problem.

    But ‘mass unemployment among the Somalis’. Hmmm, I wonder if a thousand Finns suddenly arrived in, let’s say an Indonesian Island somewhere, completely unable to speak the native language, with computer skills, teaching skills etc that were completely useless in the new environment and see what kind of ‘mass unemployment’ we would have in that Finnish population? It’s pretty much normal. You have to look at the big picture, and the big picture says a good employment rate is a reality for those Somalis who have been here over a decade. Why do you ignore that?

    You sound like someone who has been radicalised.

  117. Mark

    May be look at other aspects in life. Take a time-out and see, what can I personally do to reduce racism, stay consistent in the matter, always come up with my view and not anybody else’s.

    You could start by treating all people with dignity.

  118. Allan

    “Hmmm, I wonder if a thousand Finns suddenly arrived in, let’s say an Indonesian Island somewhere, completely unable to speak the native language, with computer skills, teaching skills etc that were completely useless in the new environment and see what kind of ‘mass unemployment’ we would have in that Finnish population?”

    Yes, and in 10-20 years they would still be sitting under the palm tree waiting for the coconut to drop?

  119. Göran

    Mark

    Cool as ice. Accourding to the study there are evidence that some Somali immigrants do well. But that doesn’t mean that the others should be neglected. Perhaps vice versa, they should take knowledge of their countrymen, that is one way they should take advantage of their fellas.

    Radical or not. The EU is leaving out many people due to the overall failure (cost) of multiculturalism. Could have been more beneficial to save more people of poor and harsch conditions by a good integration but back then those who suggested it were racists. And still are, including PS and the Nuiva Manifesto, that corresponds for a good immigration, not against immigration.

    Here UK and violation of human rights because of multiculturalism.

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2991/britain-multicultural-nightmare

  120. Göran

    Mark

    You will never be my problem. ”I’m happy to be your problem, Göran!”

    This statment goes where it should have been. But you are a problem for the poor people in Africa. Think of that you.

  121. Göran

    Mark

    Irrelevant.

    ”Hmmm, I wonder if a thousand Finns suddenly arrived in, let’s say an Indonesian Island somewhere, completely unable to speak the native language, with computer skills, teaching skills etc that were completely useless in the new environment and see what kind of ‘mass unemployment’ we would have in that Finnish population?”

    Chose an example where you can back it up with material. Finns in Sweden or Finns in Australia.

    Don’t you think there are enough problems on the world (including your igonorance to people in Africa) without creating new? Finns in Indonesia, how about Finns in Antarctica? Or Papya Guinea? Cote D’ivoire?

  122. Göran

    D4R

    I wouldn’t consider those arguments or labels as ”promoting” yourself. But you are free to call me whatever you want, nobody can stop you. But it might give a good indication if you are retarded since you would be using labels without any ground.

    Where did you get those rumors of that I would be a rapist etc? Inside your head?

    Does it smell paranoia gain? Or illusions flying?

  123. Mark

    Göran

    Chose an example where you can back it up with material. Finns in Sweden or Finns in Australia.

    No, choose an example that is comparable – i.e. Sweden they speak Swedish, Australia they speak English, both languages taught in Finnish schools.

    Where did you get those rumors of that I would be a rapist etc? Inside your head?

    Does it smell paranoia gain? Or illusions flying?

    Is D4R just too smart for you Göran that you cannot see the point that he is making?

  124. Mark

    Göran

    This statment goes where it should have been. But you are a problem for the poor people in Africa. Think of that you.

    Says the man trying to persuade us that certain Africans are criminal and lazy. 😀

    Absolutely unbelievable!!!!!

  125. Göran

    Mark

    You can say that mother Teresa was a lesbian if you want.

    you can also flip the coin. Since multiculturalism don’t work it is coming to its end in Finland, financially third world citizens are expensive so no can do. We can see the supporters (you) as the key players of the tide to stop.

    It looks like the thruth now, you get what you want. Or ”what comes around goes around.” Ask Enrique if I put it incorrectly.

    Mark, Finnish history is not your stuff. Ask Enrique how the Finns spoke Swedish when they went to Sweden? I know only the people who came back from a nr of years in Södertälje…they could not speak Swedish after returning 🙂 In my subjective view after a conversation with them. 🙂

    • Migrant Tales

      –Since multiculturalism don’t work it is coming to its end in Finland, financially third world citizens are expensive so no can do. We can see the supporters (you) as the key players of the tide to stop.

      Göran, I guess the assumption you are making is that all non-EU citizens are a burden on Finland. Are you certain about that.

      Now we come to the most interesting conclusion of your comment: “multiculturalism don’t work and it is coming to its end in Finland.”

      What are you implying? People don’t have the right to their identity in Finland? People who are not white have to feel ashamed? What do you plan to do about the tens of thousands of people who are not white and have international backgrounds? What about the future because, according to you, multiculturalism has failed will we forbid non-EU citizens from moving to Finland?

      Could we start by you explaining what multiculturalism is.

  126. Göran

    Here, one study

    ”Siirtolaisten koulutustaso ja kielitaito oli yleensä heikko ja he sijoittuivat Ruotsissa ru- tiiniluontoisiin ja vähän ammattitaitoa vaativiin teollisuus- ja palveluammatteihin.”

    ”Myöskään kielitaitoa ei ollut Virtasista etukäteen kenelläkään lukion käynyttä Kristiinaa lu- kuun ottamatta. Myös tämä on tyypillistä ruotsinsiirtolaisuudelle, koska jopa 80 % muutta- neista ei muuttohetkellä osannut lainkaan ruotsia (Wiman 1975: 162). Kysymykset koskien ruotsinkielen taitoa ja etukäteisvalmisteluja saivat Virtasilta mm. seuraavanlaisia kommentte- ja:”

    If you trust this ”odd” study then most of the emmigrants didn’t speak Swedish. That is my impression I have had and other subjective views and observations confirm this.

    Linda Tammelin made this study.

  127. D4R

    Görän: D4R

    I wouldn’t consider those arguments or labels as ”promoting” yourself. But you are free to call me whatever you want, nobody can stop you. But it might give a good indication if you are retarded since you would be using labels without any ground.

    Where did you get those rumors of that I would be a rapist etc? Inside your head?

    Does it smell paranoia gain? Or illusions flying?

    You don’t get it do you? lol i don’t usually like to be offensive but for this one ill have to call you a tool.

  128. Göran

    Migrant Tales

    Multiculturalism in its current shape and its past shape for 15 years discrminates/has discriminated ordinary Finns if you see from the leftish strive. Moving to the center the discrimination decreases slightly but when you go to the right it strives to make the prevailing conditions equal for everybody in Finland.

    The most discriminated are poor Finns.

  129. Göran

    D4R

    ”You don’t get it do you? lol i don’t usually like to be offensive but for this one ill have to call you a tool.”

    So why are you often/usually offensive if you do not like it?

    So D4R, since you asked me if I am… I will ask you the same question.

    ”are you a pedophile? because Jammu Setä the guy who raped and murdered those two innocent girls was a Finn by nationality, IM ASKING YOU D4R ARE YOU A RAPIST, MURDERED PEDOPHILE JUST LIKE HIM?”

  130. D4R

    Görän: D4R

    ”You don’t get it do you? lol i don’t usually like to be offensive but for this one ill have to call you a tool.”

    So why are you often/usually offensive if you do not like it?

    So D4R, since you asked me if I am… I will ask you the same question.

    ”are you a pedophile? because Jammu Setä the guy who raped and murdered those two innocent girls was a Finn by nationality, IM ASKING YOU D4R ARE YOU A RAPIST, MURDERED PEDOPHILE JUST LIKE HIM?”

    No further question, 🙂

  131. Mark

    Göran

    Multiculturalism in its current shape and its past shape for 15 years discrminates/has discriminated ordinary Finns if you see from the leftish strive.

    With all due respect, Göran, Finland has not practiced anything remotely like multiculturalism, either in weak or strong forms, in the last 15 years. Nope, not ever.

    Moving to the center the discrimination decreases slightly but when you go to the right it strives to make the prevailing conditions equal for everybody in Finland.

    And how do you measures ‘discrimination’ I wonder?

    The Right making things equal for everybody? Yikes, talk about brainwashed! Poverty has gone up in Finland in the last 15 years, initiated by tax changes in 1993 by a non-socialist government. In fact, in the period 1995-2005, the gap was the fastest growing of all industrialised nations, and in the last twenty years, it’s been the second fastest, behind New Zealand. It might be doing well by international standards even now, but the trend is absolutely in the wrong direction. Child poverty in Finland has also gone up significantly in the last 15 years in Finland. The status of families with children has also worsened in the same period relative to other households.

    Cuckoo land!!!!!!!

    • Migrant Tales

      Mark, Göran hasn’t told us his definition of multiculturalism. We don’t know what he means by it when he uses the term. Görän, could you tell us what is multiculturalism?

  132. Göran

    Mark

    ”With all due respect, Göran, Finland has not practiced anything remotely like multiculturalism, either in weak or strong forms, in the last 15 years. Nope, not ever.”

    Can you say this again?

    I do not include these tax/start up subventions in this because it is harder for immigrants to start a business than for Finns. 🙂

  133. Göran

    Multiculturalism in my opinion is an effort to please everybody to left and right so we can all smile. Then all nationalities should be pleased and served, financially and society wise.

    One law, those who don’t like it can take the transsiberian railway one way ticket to China.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Multiculturalism in my opinion is an effort to please everybody to left and right so we can all smile. Then all nationalities should be pleased and served, financially and society wise.

      Can you tell us where this is written in our laws? For a matter of fact, can you find in any of our laws that term “multiculturalism” or “multicultural” society?

  134. Allan

    In the law about YLE for one has monikulttuurinen mentioned. And when Arhinmäki gave out money to different youth associations, monikulttuurin edistäminen was mentioned by him as one of the criteria. Just off the top of my head.

  135. Allan

    “You don’t get it do you? lol”

    D4R yes – the police today: “Ulkomaalaisten osuus rikollisuudesta on Helsingissä maan suurin, noin 23 prosenttia. Virolaisepäiltyjen määrä on suurin. Sen jälkeen tulevat Venäjän, Somalian ja Romanian kansalaiset.” Now Estonians and Russians are our neighbours, them I can understand, but why not Swedes or Norwegians? And why do we have Somalians, its nowhere near. Must be that institutional thing again.

  136. D4R

    Allan: D4R yes – the police today: “Ulkomaalaisten osuus rikollisuudesta on Helsingissä maan suurin, noin 23 prosenttia. Virolaisepäiltyjen määrä on suurin. Sen jälkeen tulevat Venäjän, Somalian ja Romanian kansalaiset.” Now Estonians and Russians are our neighbours, them I can understand, but why not Swedes or Norwegians? And why do we have Somalians, its nowhere near. Must be that institutional thing again.

    I was watching the news and there were no mention of Somalis, they said, Roma people are the third largest criminals after Russians and Estonians, please stop trash talking Somalis al the time, this your obsession with Somalis is kinda getting alittle bit sick.

  137. Göran

    Migrant Tales

    ”Can you tell us where this is written in our laws? For a matter of fact, can you find in any of our laws that term “multiculturalism” or “multicultural” society?” No, perhaps there isn’t.

  138. Mark

    Allan

    And why do we have Somalians, its nowhere near. Must be that institutional thing again.

    This is no surprise that you say this: People are people. Some are good and some are not. You seem to understand this about people from nearby, but you do not understand it about people from ‘far away’. It is perhaps because you don’t see them as ‘people’?

    I think it is a dangerous game you are playing with immigrants, Allan, you and the many people like you. The more you degrade and denigrate immigrants, the more bad feeling emerges. Racial tensions get worse. Do you expect Somalis to love Finland when Somali culture and character is being dragged through the shit every five minutes? Or is it a case of saying you don’t give a fuck what Somalis think?

    In the same way you, and others like you, hate Migrant Tales because you think we are saying terrible things about Finns and destroying Finland’s reputation (how many times have we corrected you about that!!!), so it would be perfectly reasonable for Somalis to start hating Finns. And you would attack this response as being ‘racism’, without for one second accepting that your smearing and denigrating of Somalis is anything like racism.

    I despise people like you Allan. I despise your arrogance, your sarcasm, you inhumanity, your hypocrisy and your ignorance!!! I despise your lying and your misprepresentation, of us, of multiculturalism, of particular races and cultures.

    You do realise that when Finland first became independent, it entered immediately into a Civil War, a bitter and bloody civil war in which 37,000 people died, many through summary execution and inhuman brutal treatment. That was Finland’s entry into democracy and the modern world. And yet you feel perfectly happy to stand in judgment of Somalia, which likewise got dragged into a Civil War after a long period of being the strategic play-thing of the Soviet and Western superpowers. Many of those fighting in the war were fighting extremism (like today), fighting communism and authoritarianism. And yet you have no concept of that and no sense or intelligence to draw real comparisons with Finland’s history!!! No, you see them as lazy criminals and religious extremists, less than human, inferior culturally and in character….shame on you, you ignorant fuck!!!

  139. D4R

    Mark: In the same way you, and others like you, hate Migrant Tales because you think we are saying terrible things about Finns and destroying Finland’s reputation (how many times have we corrected you about that!!!), so it would be perfectly reasonable for Somalis to start hating Finns. And you would attack this response as being ‘racism’, without for one second accepting that your smearing and denigrating of Somalis is anything like racism.

    This is what i find hard time to understand from some Finns, they like to degrade and us as humanbeings and our culture, they put themselves in a superior position, like they’re the top of the world, they can say bad things about other but no one dares to say back, they get offended or try to shut down any criticism made to them, this is what am seeing right now, and if this trend continues am affraid things will get poisonouse for the minority, imagine how many vulnarable young minds can people like Allan influence to hate on certain peole like Somalis? if we put certain people on a negative spotlights some people will buy it and then they can be easily mistreated either pysically or mentally, i already receive awkward stares when im in the bus or metro or in the train, people are very hostile to me, some stare at me long and mean face on them, is’t because of the stereotype they’re feed to them about us? but you don’t seem to care about other peoles feelings, oh wait, you don’t think we’re people, we’re just some weird nimals fro other part of the world.

  140. D4R

    Allan, hate creates hate for sure, your not doing favor for your Finnish people, you and the peole like you who create poisonouse atmosphere are really playing dangerous game, you just don’t know how, you’re hating others who’re different than you, don’t expect them to not hate you back, they will hate you even worst, is that what you want? do you want people to hate you or do you want Finns who’re inocent and living abroad to receive hostility and bad treatment because a people like you is putting other people against Finns? Allan, i presume you’re an adult and i expect you to thnk carefully what you’re doing, really you’re not doing any favor to yourself or the peole near to you.

  141. Allan

    “This is no surprise that you say this: People are people. Some are good and some are not. You seem to understand this about people from nearby, but you do not understand it about people from ‘far away’. It is perhaps because you don’t see them as ‘people’?”

    No, the figures of nearby people are explained also as “tourists”, not necessarily “immigrants” as people seldom shit in their own nest.

    “Do you expect Somalis to love Finland when Somali culture and character is being dragged through the shit every five minutes?”

    And this is not due to them dragging it through shit by themselves? Somalians are quite free to have their culture in Somalia. They have no reason to bring it to Finland.

    “Or is it a case of saying you don’t give a fuck what Somalis think?”
    Exactly. They can have whatever opinion they want back home in Mogadishu.

    “I despise people like you Allan. I despise your arrogance, your sarcasm, you inhumanity, your hypocrisy and your ignorance!!! I despise your lying and your misprepresentation, of us, of multiculturalism, of particular races and cultures.”

    Likewise – I despise you, liar and Finland-hating racist!

    “No, you see them as lazy criminals and religious extremists, less than human, inferior culturally and in character”

    Are Finns highjacking ships in the Baltic? Do Finns chop off peoples feet and hands? Do Finns segregate their women? Do Finns mutilate womens genitals?

    ….shame on you, you ignorant fuck!!!
    Exactly!

  142. Allan

    D4R – if Somalia is so much better than Finland, then go back there. Why don’t you? Oh, you actually like living in a superior country at the top of the world? So what are you then complaining about? It is not like any of your countrymen achieved this position did they? Who are you to criticize us? Your country is the model society of the world is it?

  143. Mark

    people seldom shit in their own nest.

    Exactly – PEOPLE. It’s an individual thing and you cannot make one individual responsible for others.

    And this is not due to them dragging it through shit by themselves?

    What is this THEM? You think of them only as a group, and focus in the actions of individuals and make the group responsible. Most of the stats I’ve seen are distorted and inaccurate anyhow, so this ‘dragging through the shit’ is mostly in your head.

    Somalians are quite free to have their culture in Somalia. They have no reason to bring it to Finland.

    So, you are saying there is no cultural or religious freedom in Finland. Ignorant man!

    Likewise – I despise you, liar and Finland-hating racist!

    YOU ARE THE LIAR, Allan. I do not hate Finland. My children are Finnish you ignorant man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Are Finns highjacking ships in the Baltic? Do Finns chop off peoples feet and hands? Do Finns segregate their women? Do Finns mutilate womens genitals?

    Do Finnish Somalis hijack boats in the Bay of Finland? Do Finnish Somalis cut off people’s hands and feet here in Finland? Do Finnish Somalis segregate their women here in Finland (Somali women are actively working to realise their rights here in Finland)? Do Finnish Somalis mutilate women’s genitals in Finland (exceptionally rare and prosecuted)?

    You are an insult to tolerance and understanding. You take events from abroad and use this to degrade people living in Finland, while the whole while suggesting that Finns are so superior. You are a disgrace, Allan, a nasty piece of work, with a nasty ideology, and a dangerous subversion of good ethnic relations here in Finland.

  144. D4R

    Allan, eff you knoob, im not going no where come and make me, i suggest you shut up, yuou’re nothing your a losoer , you’re sitting on your fat arse all day talking about things you havent achienved to be yours,im asking looser, what have you acienved with your life other than to spend your miserable life on hating on people of other ethnicity,get a life prick

  145. Göran

    D4R

    African’s blame Europeans for racism and whatever possible in Europe.

    If the European culture is so bad why don’t you travel back to your model societies, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Sudan.

  146. D4R

    Allan: D4R – if Somalia is so much better than Finland, then go back there. Why don’t you? Oh, you actually like living in a superior country at the top of the world? So what are you then complaining about? It is not like any of your countrymen achieved this position did they? Who are you to criticize us? Your country is the model society of the world is it?

    I like living in Finland, and im not going no where, you can cry till you die but im not going no where, what’re you going to do about it, you’re looser, get a hoby or a job, you wld bitter man.

  147. D4R

    Mark, we’re wasting time on a dummy, this guy or whatever the heck he is, is some mently challenged individual, first i though this guy was joking around but lately ive started to come to realisation that this guy is really seriouse, he can think of himself, he stuck in somewhere God knows where, no thinking capacity or rational thinking at all,he is straight empty headed, is he worthy of our time and energy? talking to this guy is talking to a wall, i feel like my words are bouncing back at me when im talking to this door. This guy is so ignored.

  148. D4R

    Görän: D4R

    African’s blame Europeans for racism and whatever possible in Europe.

    If the European culture is so bad why don’t you travel back to your model societies, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Sudan.

    Man i’m not going no where, you can kiss my ass and make a love song about it, bye bye dummy your ignored too, you can take your friend with you.

  149. Mark

    D4R

    Well, it’s really simple. I’ve had enough of Allan. I’ve debated with him long enough on this site to know that he isn’t going to change anytime soon and that he only uses this as a platform to spread his poison. I’m sick of showcasing arseholes like him. My kids are Finnish and he goes around saying I hate Finland. Well, I will not tolerate that kind of crap from anyone. I think Finland is an incredible country in many many respects and I have great admiration and respect for Finns. But this kind of crap from Allan is not part of it.

    It’s very simple. It’s either me writing on this blog or him. I’m not going to listen to his poisonous crap anymore. He can piss of back to Hommaforum. And the same goes for Göran if he decides to try to fill the gap.

  150. D4R

    Görän, no you get the hell out of here, we’re already ere man, we’re party of this country, if you dn’t like it then i suggest your to leave, now dummy i got better things to do so bye and don’t come back to me.

  151. D4R

    Mark: D4R

    Well, it’s really simple. I’ve had enough of Allan. I’ve debated with him long enough on this site to know that he isn’t going to change anytime soon and that he only uses this as a platform to spread his poison. I’m sick of showcasing arseholes like him. My kids are Finnish and he goes around saying I hate Finland. Well, I will not tolerate that kind of crap from anyone. I think Finland is an incredible country in many many respects and I have great admiration and respect for Finns. But this kind of crap from Allan is not part of it.

    It’s very simple. It’s either me writing on this blog or him. I’m not going to listen to his poisonous crap anymore. He can piss of back to Hommaforum. And the same goes for Göran if he decides to try to fill the gap.

    Will you please ban this dummy from this site, he don’t deserve the luxury to debate with us, matetr of fact he should feel honoed to debate with us, he thinks he is some sort of superior, what could be sworst than a dummy with a superiority complex?

  152. D4R

    Incase visitors are not destracted by these two retards called Görän and Allan, we M.T participants are not racist, or against Finns, we’re Finns, and we’re part of Finnish societies, we love this country, we want this country to succeed, if this country is suffering we suffer with it, we bleed for this country, if there were to erupt a war, we would fight side by side, so we’re not against Finns as some stupid peope like Allan or görän try to insinuate, the reason why we participate in this thread is, we’re concerned the stmosphere that’s taking place in Finland, some ill informed people are trying to put people against eachother, they’re doing this by creating false lies about certain people so natives can hate them and possible lead to a civil conflict, the smart and sensible people need to realise this and stand up against it, giving a blind eye is a mistake, anyone can just see he or herlself what is going on in Finland by just browsing this thread or the oldest thread, Allan and Görän is an example of what kind of peole are inscreasing in Finland, these kind of people are a threat to national security of this country, they must be stopped, they’re poisoning young peoples mind with false information and that will not good to anyone not to Finns and not to foreigners.

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