Immigrant youths have greater chances of being marginalized in Finland

by , under All categories, Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

The number of magainalized youths is especially pronounced among immigrant youths aged 15-29, reports YLE in English, citing a study by think tank Finnish Business and Policy Forum (EVA) . The study claims one out of every three youths with immigrant background is marginalized compared with one out of eight youths nationally. 

The study defines a marginalized person as anyone who is not part of the workforce or enrolled in any study program and has not studied beyond primary school.

In 2010, there were some 51,300 marginalized youths, accounting for about 5% of all people in that age bracket.

“Over a quarter of marginalized youths have foreign backgrounds,” said Pekka Myrskylä, EVA’s head of development at Statistics Finland’s Population Statistics Department, was quoted as saying on YLE in English. “Their entry into Finland’s education and labor markets is four or five times more difficult than that of their native Finnish counterparts.”

The study suggests education can play a key role in preventing marginalization.

Certainly education plays a crucial role in the integration of any person in society but it should not be seen as a panacea. Another important point that the EVA study could have stressed is how attitudes of the majority population fuel marginalization of youths with immigrant backgrounds.

How many of these one in four marginalized youths with immigrant backgrounds have lived most of their lives in Finland? How come some of them feel rejected by society?

In the answers of those two questions you may find some of the causes for marginalization.

  1. joku

    Language is one massive problem, although not the only one, of course.
    I really feel for a teenager/adult moving here and having to learn Finnish to integrate. For some it’s a really big hurdle.

    • Enrique

      Allan, you have to admit that “fetish” is a dumb choice like “green commie.” “Fixation” is another psychological term. I will repeat slowly: Use real terms and argue in a civil fashion. Ask good questions not ones that are deflated by terms such as “fetish, green commie,” and “fixation.”

      You’ll get much farther.

      You asked me a question about an article on TS. Now I ask you: Would you be using these threats and dumb terms if you published them with your real name?

  2. Allan

    Sorry Enrique, if you denigrate Finland, I must denigrate you as otherwise some misguided individual might think you are some kind of valid source of information. And yes, if I ever become a political figure, I’ll make sure you get my undivided attention.

    And you never answered that question. You never answer any questions. You just invent fantasy.

    • Enrique

      –Sorry Enrique, if you denigrate Finland, I must denigrate you as otherwise some misguided individual might think you are some kind of valid source of information.

      I think this says a lot about why you argue the way you do. You take things personally and believe that nobody can criticize Finland. Well, Allan, you have to take on board a fact: this is a democracy and it is our RIGHT to speak out. Don’t mess with my civil rights, thank you.

      Using again funny adjectives? “Denigrate” Finland. I think you denigrate Finland by denying racism is a problem in this country and by wishing that immigrants and expats should act like yes-men/yes-women stooges that compliment your view of “Others.”

  3. Mark

    Allan

    And you never answered that question. You never answer any questions. You just invent fantasy.

    Now that left me rolling around the floor laughing. The number of times you have run away from a debate the minute you are finally faced with incontrovertible facts is legendary, only to turn up the next moment in another thread, peddling the same old rubbish.

    And so, Allan, do you have any facts or stats to back up the idea that it’s an inability to ‘work hard’ that is at the root of this problem of marginalisation? And as you suggested it might not be too much to ask, I suppose you think that it must be something wrong in the individuals concerned, or, perhaps, as you imply, in the ethnicity of those involved? And again, if that is what you think (it’s hard to tell your remarks are often so covered in slime), what is your evidence, other than your own bottom-of-the-beer-glass insight?

    Also, the easiest way to disprove that this is an element of ethnicity is simply to discover a Finnish town or city with a very small or no immigration population and ask if there are long-term unemployed, marginalised kids who drop out of school, kids with drug or alcohol problems etc. I’m sure that it is obvious even to you that this will almost certainly throw up a resounding YES, it also happens in Finnish culture.

    The next sensible question would be to ask whether the conditions that affect Finnish youth or lead to youth marginalisation are somehow magnified for immigrant children for reasons related to their immigration or upbringing in Finland or abroad. Then, perhaps, we might actually get closer to some real understanding of the issue – not the sound waves emnating from your pot belly trying to immitate the appearance of ‘wisdom’.

    So, let’s put this in the context of your mugging, Allan. You blame the victims in respect of all social ills. You blame yourself for being drunk (though that is perfectly acceptable), you blame these youths for not working hard enough at school. You blame the kid pushed off the train for ‘barging on’, and you blame the 14-year old abused weekly on the Metro for simply not being ‘grown-up’ or thic-skinned enough. Yep, there are no victims in your world, only mugs, oh, and muggers………… Funny, that, isn’t it!?

  4. Allan

    Yes Mark, the question is exactly why the immigrant kids are 4x as likely to drop out.
    The answer of course is racism and xenophobia. If your parents don’t believe in education, due to them being drunk, religious or whatever, then the excuse is “multiculturalism”.You are giving these kids an extra excuse why they are getting sidetracked.

    Yes – what you need to realise is that the kids upbringing, previous education and other factors can make them disadvantaged. So, they need to work harder to catch up. If you are a prodigy you don’t need to read for your tests. If you are dumb you need to sit down nights and study for your tests. if you choose to go party instead of studying, you get bad grades. And then when you don’t get a study place – its because of you and your choices. Not xenophobia and racism.

    Get it? Taking responsibility – not blaming Finns and Finland for your own shortcomings?

  5. Allan

    Enrique, this is Finland, not USA, so stick your civil rights in a pipe and smoke them. Racism is not a problem in this country as it does not exist except as a marginal phenomenon. It is a problem for you that it does not exist, so you must invent racism, to create yourself a job as an affirmative action champion.

  6. Mark

    Allan

    Racism is not a problem in this country as it does not exist except as a marginal phenomenon. It is a problem for you that it does not exist, so you must invent racism.

    This must be some kind of breakthrough (your therapy is going well, Allan). “Racism is a MARGINAL PHENOMENON in Finland”, from the lips of Allan himself, finally! An admittance of something that to most people is of course absurdly obvious. Well, it’s a start.

    Of course, no sooner do you admit it than you then deny it again.

    It is a problem for you that it does not exist, so you must invent racism

    I guess it simply takes a little bit of time for one part of your brain to catch up with what’s been going on in another part. 😀 Oh, you are entertaining, Allan.

    Yes Mark, the question is exactly why the immigrant kids are 4x as likely to drop out. The answer of course is racism and xenophobia.

    I guess you are putting forward what you think is our answer on this. Well, in part, I would agree. But, pay attention, I think it is only one part of the problem. Also, I think you probably have no clue how racism or xenophobia can actually lead to marginalisation of youth, so perhaps we need to massage a few more of your brain cells for you.

    If your parents don’t believe in education, due to them being drunk, religious or whatever, then the excuse is “multiculturalism”.You are giving these kids an extra excuse why they are getting sidetracked.

    You are lapsing into your stump speech again, but let’s say that there is some truth in this. First, if the parents don’t have a job, even after having spent 5 or more years studying, acquiring the language, gaining university level education in Finland, then its not a great incentive for the kids, is it? Of course not all the parents are so suited to benefiting from education. The link with drunkeness and religion is rather moot considering the power of the church and alcohol in Finnish society. This hardly makes them incompatible with the Finnish way of doing things, now does it. Second, kids don’t blame multiculturalism for their problems, or use it as an excuse. That’s ridiculous. It’s you anti-immigrationists that want to blame ‘multiculturulism’ for what are basically problems common to all cultures.

    Yes – what you need to realise is that the kids upbringing, previous education and other factors can make them disadvantaged.

    Gosh you are doing well today Allan.

    So, they need to work harder to catch up. If you are a prodigy you don’t need to read for your tests. If you are dumb you need to sit down nights and study for your tests. if you choose to go party instead of studying, you get bad grades. And then when you don’t get a study place – its because of you and your choices. Not xenophobia and racism.

    Oh dear, you really have a rogue brain cell in there, don’t you! Okay, first off, if the kids have problems being motivated, then simply telling them to ‘work harder’ is probably not going to work. Second, if you tell them you have to work harder because ‘your dumb’, there is even less likelihood that you will get a response. Remind them that there are parties to go to, and your likely to be left watching their hoodies bouncing as they hop off into the distance to the same said party.

    The upshot of all of this is very simple. You view the problem as specifically an individual problem. They are the ones in trouble, they have to fix it. Thank God that Finland does not follow your approach. Finland’s approach is one of support and a recognition that its a combination of individual, societal and institutional factors that sees youth being marginalised. It’s hard work, because resources are scarce, but Finland at least buys into the idea on paper, and indeed, several activation policies that seek to get social welfare, health and employment personnel all working off the same page is bringing greater success. You see, it’s a multidimensional problem that requires a multidimensional solution. But hey, keep telling yourself that all they need is a good mugging (oops, I meant to write ‘kick up the arse’) and they will be back on the straight an narrow.

  7. Allan

    “Okay, first off, if the kids have problems being motivated, then simply telling them to ‘work harder’ is probably not going to work. Second, if you tell them you have to work harder because ‘your dumb’, there is even less likelihood that you will get a response.”

    Yes, tell them its because “the man” is keeping them down. Its racism to require an education. Its xenophobia to require language skills.

  8. Allan

    “You view the problem as specifically an individual problem. They are the ones in trouble, they have to fix it.”

    You can lead a horse to a well, but you can’t force it to drink.

  9. Allan

    “Finland’s approach is one of support and a recognition that its a combination of individual, societal and institutional factors that sees youth being marginalised.”

    OK, so you explain to me why then some immigrants get marginalised? I mean if they get it all?
    – Get money and goods without working
    – Get told they need not integrate nor get an education.
    – Get told that they don’t need to give up their culture, however primitive, as it is “enriching”.
    – Get told that the Finnish culture is inferior, if there is any
    – Get told that any critique from the natives is “racism” you can start a huge issue with.
    – Get told its allright to segregate with their countrymen and live just like at home.

    Howcome this can lead to marginalisation? No way, what are we doing wrong?

  10. Mark

    Allan

    Yes, tell them its because “the man” is keeping them down. Its racism to require an education. Its xenophobia to require language skills.

    You’re just talking shit now. Look at the figures above – three quarters of the 51,000 marginalised youth are Finns, that is about 38,000 young Finnish people who are in exactly the same boat as these ‘foreign origin’ youth. They have no education past their normal schooling. That’s 38,000 Finnish young people who for one reason or another do not go on to get more education or training and do not yet have work. Do you have anything to say about them? Or are you going to focus on the 16,000 foreign origin young people, who may only have just arrived in Finland? Yep, go after the most vulnerable. Go after the kids, Allan, that’s just your style!

    So, your last rant is basically stating they ‘get’, ‘get’, ‘get’, when actually, the only concrete thing you mention is getting money without working. Actually, the half a million unemployed Finns get money for not working, many young mothers get money though not in the labour force, and many retired people get money though not in the labour force. According to your sweeping statement about ‘getting money without working’, I suppose you want to complain about these too? Nope, didn’t think so. Full of shit, as usual.

    No-one tells immigrant kids that they do not need to integrate, have an education (almost all do, but not necessarily a further education). As for giving up their culture – why the fuck should they? Because you tell them to? So, you want to tell them what to eat, what to wear, what languages to speak, what music to listen to, what festivals to celebrate and probably what religion to be part of.

    Primitive culture? Well, that just shows you what kind of racist and fucked up ideas you have about immigrants.

    Finnish culture is what it is, good and bad, like all cultures. Not inferior or superior. However, it IS understandable if Finns think their culture is superior, but most Finns are sensible enough to realise that people generally prefer the culture they know to the culture they don’t.

    Allan, you are not critiquing foreign cultures with this shit. You don’t even understand Finnish culture, let alone make attempting a half-arsed judgment about foreign cultures. Tell me anything off the top of your head that is being done in Finland to help marginalised youth? What is the key idea?

    I’ll tell you what you are doing wrong, you are letting a mugging by a black man warp your entire perception of ‘foreign’ people, that’s what you are doing wrong.

  11. Allan

    “No-one tells immigrant kids that they do not need to integrate, have an education (almost all do, but not necessarily a further education). ”

    You do. Multiculturalism, diversity, its by far easier to whine about racism.

    “As for giving up their culture – why the fuck should they?”

    Why the fuck did they move to Finland? If they want to keep their culture – then stay at home. We have no need for immigrants in the first place, and less need for immigrants with attitude problems.

    “Finnish culture is what it is, good and bad, like all cultures. Not inferior or superior. However, it IS understandable if Finns think their culture is superior, ”

    Finnish culture is superior in Finland. Finnish society, Finnish rules, not foreign society, not foreign rules. Get that you muppet?

    • Enrique

      –You do. Multiculturalism, diversity, its by far easier to whine about racism.

      This is another revealing thing about how little you know what racism is. I would call your type color-blind racism. It fits you like a glove. What is color-blind racism? In other words, you do everything possible to avoid the issue of racism (denial) and thus don’t even attempt to address this social ill. Color-blind racism is a good way to hide your real views of “others.”

      In that color-blind racism group I’d have a long list where you’d find some the Finnish media and the “official-unofficial” way Finland handles these types of cases. We will do everything, and go out of our way, to ensure ourselves (white Finns) that racism isn’t a major issue in Finland.

      Making a preposterous suggestion that since the police did not pin a hate crime on the victim, who died tragically, you think it merits no debate nor attention.

  12. Foreigner

    I am no fan of the Finns, and know that they are generally very racist. Whilst I will wholeheartedly blame them for the high unemployment rate among foreigners, I will never blame them for foreign kids choosing to drop out of the school system. From my experience in the Finnish educational system, everyone is given a fair shot. It all boils down to how determined you are, and how much work you are willing to put in , in order to excel academically.

    I have little sympathy for individuals who “play around in school”, then blame the Finns .If it means working twice as hard as the average Finn to get the grades they get, then you just do what you have to do.Dropping out of school is never an option in my books;it just gives the racists more ammunition to use against us.

  13. Allan

    Yes Mark, I am concentrating on immigrants here as that is what “Migraine Whines” concentrates on. Political parties like the PS concentrate on youth issues.

  14. Allan

    Watch it Foreigner, you are agreeing with me there. Regarding the jobs, what skillset you offer that makes you an outstandinc candidate… or is it the lack of certain skills? Or were they actually measuring your skull?

  15. Allan

    It merits as much attention as any other similar crime. And what is there to “debate”?

    Apart from the fact you never “debate” crimes where the immigrants are the perpetrators. You can’t as then you would need to make a post twice a day.

  16. Mark

    Allan

    Don’t be ridiculous. This blog is not about discussing crime, it’s about issues related to immigration, immigrants and discrimination. If you are looking for balance, then Enrique would also post crimes by Finns, and that would be posting 100 times a day. You miss the point by claiming it’s not fair.

    If you want to claim that immigrants commit crime, just like foreigners, because Enrique has posted about an alleged crime of a Finn against a Somali, then fine, we all accept that. If you want to make out that immigrants commit more crime, then you are duty bound to explain that as well and provide statistics. There is also a duty upon you to be open to explanations. Anything less is just childish whining about foreigners for no good reason (except you were once mugged by one).

    Also, in another very recent thread, EH brought up a story about black racist crime against a white, and it was being debated, and although you were commenting on the thread about other things, you didn’t comment at all about this story, or about the situation of blacks in Oregon, the nature of the hate crime law there, and the issue of ‘white outrage’ that followed the attack. You see, you had an opportunity to do exactly what you complain about not being able to do, and you don’t take it up.

  17. Mark

    Allan

    “You do. Multiculturalism, diversity, its by far easier to whine about racism.”

    No, Multiculturalism has nothing to do with telling people to whine about racism. Multiculturalism involves an acknowledgement that migration and reproduction patterns in Europe mean that Europe will become an increasingly multiethnic society, and in those conditions, acceptance and tolerance of cultural diversity makes for safer and a more productive society. It’s being sensible, it’s not about making excuses for the challenges that comes with multiethnic societies. The biggest challenge of a multiethnic society is providing jobs. It’s not about giving those jobs to natives, because even with all the natives fully employed, we would still need more people working to pay for the nearly 30% expected retirement population, and that doesn’t take into account other dependents, such as children.

    But whatever the reason why immgrants are here or why more may come in the future, it just makes sense to have healthy communities and healthy dialogue. It’s not about not criticising. There are many people within their own communities who are quite capable of being critical about the ‘way things are done’.

    The problem with you Allan is that you contintually insult foreigners and foreign cultures. It just goes on and on and on and on, with no justification. That’s your alternative. That and whining about multiculturalism. And we all know that the reason you do it is that you were once mugged by a foreigner. And rather than work through the experience, you blamed yourself, blamed the system for letting a foreigner into the country, and now you blame all victims, but especially victims of racism. And even and including child victims. Whatever you preach, and it’s certainly not clear, the practice that you bring to this blog day in and day out is one of constant sneering at foreigners, a total disregard for the functions of society, for factual information, for the factors behind social cohesion. Nope, instead, you sow dissent, you sow racism, you sow bitterness and hatred.

    However, yesterday, you did finally admit that there was racism in Finland, only to deny in the very next sentence. Is there an Allan1 and an Allan2? Maybe you should introduce them to each other!

  18. Allan

    “Don’t be ridiculous. This blog is not about discussing crime, it’s about issues related to immigration, immigrants and discrimination”

    And crimes committed by immigrants are not discussed, even they are exactly what the “real problem” is.

    “If you want to make out that immigrants commit more crime, then you are duty bound to explain that as well and provide statistics.”

    The statistics are freely available and have been brought up several times. You just then try to hide the facts.

  19. Allan

    “Europe will become an increasingly multiethnic society, and in those conditions, acceptance and tolerance of cultural diversity makes for safer and a more productive society.”

    Ah, just like in UK, with the riots in London, the burning cars of Paris, the “zones urbaines sensibles”, the Copenhagen and Malmo suburbs where the ambulance and fire brigade don’t dare to go without police escort? Oh yes. That is what Finland needs!

    “But whatever the reason why immgrants are here or why more may come in the future, it just makes sense to have healthy communities and healthy dialogue”

    Yes. Finland will benefit of having healthy communities instead of multicultural ghettoes like the rest of Europe. And healthy dialogue will start when you stop blaming Finns of racism but look at yourself in the mirror of your own actions.This blog cionstantly insults Finland, Finnish culture and Finnish people without any justification.

    Racism in Finland is such a marginal phenomenon it is like someone pissing in the reservoir. So if I am saying the reservoir is not full of piss it doesnt mean someone hasn’t ever peed in it or there won’t be a trace of urea in the sample. There still is no piss in the reservoir.

  20. justicedemon

    Allan

    The statistics are freely available and have been brought up several times. You just then try to hide the facts.

    More bullshit.

    All we ever see here are statistics on suspects, not convictions. These are already hugely distorted when the offences of visitors are included in the numerator while excluding those same visitors from the denominator. Such figures only convince epähiket like you, who cannot see the massive mathematical error that such a procedure involves.

    Statistics from Thailand show that Finnish males abroad have an overwhelming propensity to be child rapists, Allan. That is the level of your argumentation.

  21. Mark

    Allan

    The vast majority of immigrants are law-abiding citizens who dislike crime as much as you do. You insult them by trying to associate crime with their ethnicity.

    …they are exactly what the “real problem” is.

    You can bring up any crime you like by an immigrant and I will discuss it and condemn it if necessary. I’m not hiding from anything, Allan, least of all, the facts. I have standards. If you look through the history of my posts, you will see that I research the topics I talk about. Unlike yourself. I cannot remember you offering a single ‘fact’ or statistics, other than your bottom-of-the-beer-glass insights.

    You try to pin criminality onto ethnicity. That is plain racist. You are a racist, Allan. Plain and simple. You have given very many instances on here that clearly show you are a racist.

    Now if you said that some crime is high in some ethnic communities, I would agree. And that is not being racist. However, using that fact to discredit the entire community is disengenous. And it’s also racist.

    Every time you get the chance, you associate foreigners with crime. I have never once see you associate immigrants or e.g. Somalis, with work, with art, with music, with literature, with science, with family values, with good religious values. Nope, every time it comes up, you want to point to honour killings, unemployment and crime. It’s like watching a tide of shit coming from your keyboard.

    But the only person you discredit is yourself. I value Finland, but I would only ask that the good people here stand up to fucking idiots like you and tell you where to get off. If they don’t, then we’ll get more situations like the 8-year-old kid pushed off a train and called a monkey by a grown up, where 14-year-old child is verbally abused regularly on public transport in Helsinki by grown ups, and no-one does or says anything to defend her.

    This is not the Finland I want to live in, and I do trust that it is not the Finland that the vast majority of Finns really want to live in, even if they don’t like the idea of Finland losing it’s exclusively ‘white’ population.

    You are the one hiding Allan. I’ve already suggested you and I take a walk around Helsinki together and you creamed your fucking pants at the thought of it. 🙂

  22. Allan

    “I have never once see you associate immigrants or e.g. Somalis, with work, with art, with music, with literature, with science, with family values, with good religious values. ”

    For the simple reason there is nothing of those to associate them with – might be due to those good religious values banning a few of those, except literature of course, but you dismissed Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book offhand.

    “This is not the Finland I want to live in”

    Good, its working. When does your plane leave? I can come meet you at Stansted.

    “I’ve already suggested you and I take a walk around Helsinki together and you creamed your fucking pants at the thought of it”

    I don’t have the money to come for a holiday, but when I do, I’ll buy you a pint in the seediest dive in Kallio during a PS rally.

  23. Mark

    Allan

    Ah, just like in UK, with the riots in London, the burning cars of Paris, the “zones urbaines sensibles”, the Copenhagen and Malmo suburbs where the ambulance and fire brigade don’t dare to go without police escort? Oh yes. That is what Finland needs!

    You are doing again, Allan, associating riots with black people and immigrants. Fuck you, By that same logic, Allan, you must be a peodophile then, because enough of your countrymen have been caught doing it out in the Far East!

    Yes. Finland will benefit of having healthy communities instead of multicultural ghettoes like the rest of Europe. And healthy dialogue will start when you stop blaming Finns of racism but look at yourself in the mirror of your own actions.This blog cionstantly insults Finland, Finnish culture and Finnish people without any justification.

    You cannot have your cake and eat it. You cannot say that Finland will avoid ghettoes if it stays white and then cry about someone accusing Finns of racism.

    How does this blog insult Finland? By discussing racism in Finland? Fuck off you knob. Don’t be so naive, Allan. We can talk about racism and all sorts of problems IN Finland, but that is not insulting Finland. The only people I would feel like insulting are knobs like you, who cannot even bring themselves to condemn an 8-year old girl getting thrown off a train by a racist thug who called her an ape. Yep, you are foul, Allan. Whatever fucked up motivation drives you to come to this blog and bleat about Finland’s reputation, I don’t know. But a human being who cannot step up and defend a child from that kind of thug is just not worth listening to. They should be shunned for being morally bankrupt.

  24. Mark

    Allan

    Ah, just like in UK, with the riots in London, the burning cars of Paris, the “zones urbaines sensibles”, the Copenhagen and Malmo suburbs where the ambulance and fire brigade don’t dare to go without police escort? Oh yes. That is what Finland needs!

    You are doing it again, Allan, associating riots with black people and immigrants. Fuck you, By that same logic, Allan, you must be a peodophile then, because enough of your countrymen have been caught doing it out in the Far East!

    Yes. Finland will benefit of having healthy communities instead of multicultural ghettoes like the rest of Europe. And healthy dialogue will start when you stop blaming Finns of racism but look at yourself in the mirror of your own actions.This blog cionstantly insults Finland, Finnish culture and Finnish people without any justification.

    You cannot have your cake and eat it. You cannot say that Finland will avoid ghettoes if it stays white and then cry about someone accusing Finns of racism.

    How does this blog insult Finland? By discussing racism in Finland? Fuck off you knob. Don’t be so naive, Allan. We can talk about racism and all sorts of problems IN Finland, but that is not insulting Finland. The only people I would feel like insulting are knobs like you, who cannot even bring themselves to condemn an 8-year old girl getting thrown off a train by a racist thug who called her an ape. Yep, you are foul, Allan. Whatever fucked up motivation drives you to come to this blog and bleat about Finland’s reputation, I don’t know. But a human being who cannot step up and defend a child from that kind of thug is just not worth listening to. They should be shunned for being morally bankrupt.

  25. Allan

    Nice quoting.

    I will condemn any “discriminatory acts” that
    a) actually are proven to have happened
    b) are not flaunted as a propaganda piece with made up additions
    c) have any real significance – someone looking you on the street is not “significant”

    I will not condemn illusions, oversensitive people feeling bad, people reading the body language or cultural innuendos wrong, or people giving excuses for not abiding to the rules as people being subjected to “racism”. I will condemn the people as stupid.

  26. Mark

    but you dismissed Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book offhand.

    Your a liar, Allan. I have said that we should condemn bigotry on all sides. Condemning bigotry is not about condemning ethnicity, Allan. There is a huge difference.

    Hang on a minute, Allan – how fucking dense can you be….

    For the simple reason there is nothing of those [art & literature] to associate them with –

    Two lines down…

    but you dismissed Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book offhand.

    So, first you say there is no literature, and then you condemn me for not paying enough attention to a book written by….wait for it…..an immigrant!

    Fuck you are dense.

    I don’t have the money to come for a holiday, but when I do, I’ll buy you a pint in the seediest dive in Kallio during a PS rally.

    I’ve had plenty of pints in seedy Kallio, Allan. So, that would make you feel safe would it, being among the ‘brothers’. Yep, every thug needs his gang! I quite understand that.

    Nope, me and you, Allan, mano el mano. Let’s take a walk around Helsinki and see this town that you claim to know so well.

  27. Allan

    “You are doing it again, Allan, associating riots with black people and immigrants. ”

    What, I am? Why is that? Is it the natives that are restless? Pierre is burning the peugeot? Association is due to the fact. Trying to deny the facts again… knob? you?

    From what I understand the Thai authorities do not allow the formation of multicultural farang kiddylove ghettoes? They put the perpetrators in jail and then deport them. Where is your logic?

    “You cannot say that Finland will avoid ghettoes if it stays white”
    You got a skin color fetish as well, try getting some therapy. Finland already has ghettoes, to avoid ghettoes burning we must keep the “Finnish culture” there that keeps the control in hand of the authorities, not give them up to multiculture as has happened already in Sweden.

    Finland’s reputation is besmirched by lies like the posts in this blog. “Racism” is not a problem in Finland – immigrant criminals are. You deny this you knob, you defend these criminals, you are the problem.

  28. Allan

    “So, first you say there is no literature, and then you condemn me for not paying enough attention to a book written by….wait for it…..an immigrant!

    Fuck you are dense.”

    Fuck you are illiterate. Learn to read English.

  29. Mark

    Allan – you are just plain ignorant!

    No artists, poets, writers, scientists etc among the immigrants? Okay, here you go, a list of some of the prominent ones from just Somalia, and this doesn’t include politicians and humanitarians [Enrique, forgive the length of this post, but I think it’s important to make a point]:

    Academics
    Ismail Jim’ale Osoble, – lawyer that once served as Minister of Information in the government of
    Ali A. Abdi, – Somali anthropologist and professor of education and international development at the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada and is president of the Comparative and International Education Society of Canada. He is also the founding editor of the peer reviewed online publication Journal of Contemporary Issues in Education
    Abdi Kusow – Somali associate professor of sociology at Iowa State University in Ames, Iowa. Has written extensively on Somali sociology and anthropology.
    Shire Jama Ahmed (c. 1935–?) – linguist who devised a unique Latin script for the Somali language
    Ahmed Ismail Samatar – prominent Somali professor and dean of the Institute for Global Citizenship at Macalester College. He is the editor of Bildhaan: An International Journal of Somali Studies.
    Abdi Ismail Samatar – prominent Somali scholar and professor at the University of Minnesota
    Said Sheikh Samatar (b. 1943) – prominent Somali scholar and writer. Main areas of interest are linguistics and sociology.
    Mohamed Haji Mukhtar – Somali professor of African and Middle Eastern History at Savannah State University. Has written extensively on the history of Somalia and the Somali language.
    Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi – Somali scholar, linguist and writer. Published on Somali culture, history, language and ethnogenesis.
    Ali Jimale Ahmed – Somali poet, essayist, scholar, and short story writer. Published on Somali history and linguistics
    Abdisalam Issa-Salwe – scholar, writer; currently an associate professor in Information Systems in the Faculty of Computer Science and Engineering at Taibah University in Medina, Saudi Arabia

    Activists
    Fatima Jibrell (b. December 30, 1947) – prominent Somali-American environmental activist. She is the co-founder and executive director of the Horn of Africa Relief and Development Organization (“Horn Relief”), co-founder of Sun Fire Cooking, and was instrumental in the creation of the Women’s Coalition for Peace.
    Hawo Tako (d. 1948) – early 20th century Somali female nationalist whose sacrifice became a symbol for pan-Somalism.
    Asha Haji Elmi (Caasha Xaaji Cilmi) (b. 1962) – peace activist in Somalia.
    Dekha Ibrahim Abdi (1964–14 July 2011) – Somali peace activist in Kenya
    Hirsi Magan Isse (Xirsi Magan Ciise) (1935–2008) – activist, scholar and one of the leading figures of the Somali Revolution
    Mohamud Siad Togane (b. 1943) – Somali Canadian poet, professor, and political activist.

    Artists
    Magool (May 2, 1948–March 19, 2004) (Halima Khaliif Omar) – prominent Somali singer, considered in Somalia as one of the greatest entertainers of all time.
    Khadija Qalanjo – popular Somali singer in the 1970s and 1980s.
    Hasan Adan Samatar (b. 1953) – popular male artist during the 1970s and 80s
    K’naan (b. February 1, 1978) – award-winning Somali-Canadian hip hop artist.
    Aar Maanta – popular Somali singer, composer, songwriter and music producer.
    Ali Feiruz (1931–1994) – Somali musician from Djibouti; part of the Radio Hargeisa generation of Somali artists.
    Maryam Mursal (b. January 1, 1950) – famous musician from Somalia; composer and vocalist whose work has been produced by the record label Real World.
    Mohamed Mooge Liibaan (?–June 1984) – Somali artist from the Radio Hargeisa generation.
    Abdi Sinimo (b. 1920s) – prominent Somali artist and inventor of the Balwo musical style.
    Waaberi – Somalia’s foremost musical group that toured throughout several countries in Africa and Asia, including Egypt, Sudan and China.
    Abdullahi Qarshe (1924–1994) – Somali musician, poet and playwright known for his innovative styles of music which included a wide variety of musical instruments such as the guitar, piano, and oud.
    Saba Anglana – Somali-Italian actress and international singer
    Abdi Bashir Indhobuur – poet and songwriter
    Marian Joan Elliott Said (Poly Styrene) (July 3, 1957–April 25, 2011) – pioneering Somali-British punk rock singer for X-Ray Spex
    Mocky (Dominic Salole) (b. October 7, 1974) – Somali-Canadian pop music performer
    French Montana (b. November 9, 1984) – Somali-Moroccan rapper
    Hassan Sheikh Mumin (1930/31–January 16, 2008) – Somali poet, reciter and playwright

    Athletes
    Fabio Liverani (b. April 29, 1976) – Somali-Italian international footballer
    Abdi Bile (b. December 28, 1962) – world champion middle distance runner in the 1500 metres, and three time Olympian
    Mustafa Mohamed (b. March 1, 1979) – Somali-Swedish long-distance runner who mainly competes in the 3000 meter steeplechase. Won gold in the 2006 Nordic Cross Country Championships and at the 1st SPAR European Team Championships in Leiria, Portugal in 2009. Beat the 31 year old Swedish record in 2007.
    Mo Farah (b. March 23, 1983) – Somali-British gold medalist in international track and field. He currently holds the British indoor record in the 3000 metre and won the 3000 m at the 2009 European Indoor Championships in Turin.
    Liban Abdi (b. October 5, 1988) – Somali international footballer. Currently plays for Ferencvárosi TC in the Hungarian First Division, on loan from Sheffield United of England.
    Ayub Daud (b. February 24, 1990) – Somali international footballer who plays as a forward/attacking midfielder for A.S. Gubbio 1910 on loan from Juventus.
    Zahra Bani (b. December 31, 1979) – Somali-Italian javelin thrower
    Abdisalam Ibrahim (b. May 1, 1991) – Somali-Norwegian footballer who plays for Manchester City. He is the Premier League’s first Somali player and also the first East African.
    Amin Askar(b. October 1, 1985) – Somali-Norwegian professional football player, playing for Fredrikstad FK in the Norwegian Premier League.

    Authors
    Mohamed Ibrahim Warsame ‘Hadrawi’ (b. 1943) – songwriter, philosopher, and Somali Poet Laureate; also dubbed the Somali Shakespeare.
    Nuruddin Farah (b. November 24, 1945) – Somali writer considered one of the greatest contemporary writers in the world.
    Abdillahi Suldaan Mohammed Timacade (1920–February 6, 1973) – prominent Somali poet known for his nationalist poems such as Kana siib Kana Saar.
    Maxamed Daahir Afrax – Somali novelist and playwright. Afrax has published several novels and short stories in Somali and Arabic languages, and has also written two plays, the first being Durbaan Been ah (“A Deceptive Dream”), which was staged in Somalia in 1979. His major contribution in the field of theatre criticism is Somali Drama: Historical and Critical Study (1987).
    Farah Mohamed Jama Awl (1937–1991) – famous Somali author best known for his historical fiction novels.
    Ayaan Hirsi Ali (Ayaan Xirsi Cali or Ayaan Hirsi Magan) (b. November 13, 1969) – feminist and political writer
    Cristina Ali Farah (b. 1973) – Somali-Italian writer and poet
    Afdhere Jama (b. 1980) – Somali-American writer based in San Francisco
    Ahmed Farah Ali ‘Idaja’ (Axmed Faarax Cali ‘Idaajaa’) (b. 1948) – Somali language writer and ‘father’ of the Somali written folklore
    Abdullahi Hagi Bashir Ismail (Cabdullaahi Xaaji Bashiir Ismaaciil), Somali Studies – Writer – History and Politics.
    Abdourahman Waberi (b. 1965) – writer and teacher

    Directors
    Abdulkadir Ahmed Said (b. 1953) – prominent Somali film director, producer, screenwriter, cinematographer and editor.

    Entrepreneurs
    Abdirashid Duale – award-winning Somali entrepreneur, philanthropist, and the CEO of the multinational enterprise Dahabshiil.
    Omar A. Ali – Somali entrepreneur, accountant, financial consultant, philanthropist, and leading specialist on Islamic finance. Was formerly CEO of Dar al-Maal al-Islami (DMI Trust), which under his management increased its assets from $1.6 billion USD to $4.0 billion USD. He is currently the chairman and founder of the multinational real estate corporation Integrated Property Investments Limited and its sister company Quadron investments.
    Amina Moghe Hersi (b. 1963) – Award-winning Somali entrepreneur that has launched several multi-million dollar projects in Kampala, Uganda, such as the Oasis Centre luxury mall and the Laburnam Courts. She also runs Kingstone Enterprises Limited, one of the largest distributors of cement and other hardware materials in Kampala.
    Mohammed Abdillahi Ogsadey(1920s–2006) – was a Somali business tycoon based in Ethiopia where he established MAO Harar Horse, the first African corporation to export coffee.
    Aden Mohammed – prominent Somali banker and entrepreneur. He is the managing director of Barclays Bank in East and West Africa. Under his tenure BBK won the Banker Awards 2009.

    Journalists
    Rageh Omaar (b. July 19, 1967) – Somali-British author and television news presenter. Formerly a BBC news correspondent in 2009, he moved to a new post at Al Jazeera English, where he currently presents the nightly weekday documentary series Witness.

    Judges
    Abdulqawi Yusuf (b. September 12, 1948) – prominent Somali international lawyer and judge with the International Court of Justice.
    Mohamed Abdi Aware (?–November 12, 2009) – was a high-profile Somali judge in the northern semi-autonomous Puntland region of Somalia and a member of its Supreme Judicial Council. He was assassinated on 12 November 2009 outside a mosque in Bosaso, capital of Puntland.

    Models
    Yasmin Warsame (b. May 17, 1976) – Somali-Canadian model. In 2004, she was named “The Most Alluring Canadian” in a poll by Fashion
    Hawa Ahmed (1989) – Somali-Swedish fashion model and winner of Cycle 4 of Sweden’s Next Top Model.
    Iman Mohamed Abdulmajid (July 25, 1955) – international fashion icon, supermodel, actress and entrepreneur, professionally known as Iman.
    Waris Dirie (1965) – model, author, actress and human rights activist.
    Fatima Siad (b. December 17, 1986) – third place finisher on America’s Next Top Model, Cycle 10, professional model

    Scientists
    Shaykh Sufi (1829–1904) – 19th century Somali scholar, poet, reformist and astrologist.
    Hassan al-Jabarti (d. 1774) – Somali mathematician, theologian, astronomer and philosopher, considered one of the great scholars of the 18th century.
    Warsame Ali (b. 1955) – Somali scientist and assistant professor at Prairie View A&M University, specialized in aerospace technology. He has previously worked for NASA.
    Ali Said Faqi – Somali scientist and the leading researcher on the design and interpretation of toxicology studies at the MPI research center in Mattawan, Michigan.
    Jama Musse Jama (b. 1967) – prominent Somali ethnomathematician and author. He is notable for his research on traditional Somali boardgames such as Shax and the history of mathematics in the Horn of Africa.
    Abdusalam Abubakar (b. 1989/90) – one of the youngest winners of the BT Young Scientist of the Year Award who later went on to win the European Union Contest for Young Scientists for his project, which was entitled An Extension of Wiener’s Attack on RSA.
    Amina Said Ali – author, poet, and medical scientist based in Stockholm, Sweden.
    Ahmed Mumin Warfa – scientist, specialised in botany and jointly discovered the Cyclamen somalense, the first genus from tropical Africa with his colleague Mats Thulin. Dr. Warfa is the “world’s pre-eminent authority on frankincense”, and a professor at Salt Lake Community College.
    Osman Aden Abdulle – prominent Somali geneticist that has studied the Somali blood type and it’s ethnogenesis. In 1987 he jointly discovered with his colleagues a new Rh gene complex producing the rare Cx (Rh9) antigen in the Somali population.

    Theologians
    Uways al-Barawi (1847–1909) – Somali scholar credited with reviving Islam in 19th century East Africa and with followers in Yemen and Indonesia.
    Sa’id of Mogadishu – 14th century Somali scholar and traveler. His reputation as a scholar earned him audiences with the Emirs of Mecca and Medina. He travelled across the Muslim world and visited Bengal and China.
    Abd al-Rahman al-Jabarti (1753–1825) – Somali scholar living in Cairo who recorded the Napoleonic invasion of Egypt.
    Abd Al-Rahman bin Ahmad al-Zayla’i (1820–1882) – Somali scholar who played a crucial role in the spread of the Qadiriyya movement in Somalia and East Africa.
    Muhammad Al-Sumaalee (1910–1999) – Somali scholar and teacher in the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca. He influenced many of the prominent Islamic scholars of today.
    Ali al-Jabarti (d. 1492) – Somali scholar and politician in the Mamluk Empire.
    Uthman bin Ali Zayla’i (d. 1342) – 14th century Somali theologian and jurist who wrote the single most authoritative text on the Hanafi school of Islam, consisting of four volumes known as the Tabayin al-Haqa’iq li Sharh Kanz al-Daqa’iq.
    Abdallah al-Qutbi (1879–1952) – Somali polemicist theologian and philosopher
    Abd al Aziz al-Amawi (1832–1896) – 19th century influential Somali diplomat, historian, poet, jurist and scholar living in the Sultanate of Zanzibar.
    Abadir Umar Ar-Rida – 13th century Somali cleric and saint of Harar.

  30. Mark

    Finland’s reputation is besmirched by lies like the posts in this blog. “Racism” is not a problem in Finland – immigrant criminals are. You deny this you knob, you defend these criminals, you are the problem.

    There are no lies in this blog except those perpetrated by racists like you. Racism is fucking problem in Finland. You are a perfectly example of exactly the kind of problem…with shit like this, spewing endlessly out of your mouth.

    Immigrant criminals is [a problem in Finland]

    Notice: – immigrant – next to – criminal – next to – problem. It’s not that you cannot mention that some immigrants get into trouble, it’s that every time you want to discuss immigration, this is the only think you put forward. You insult immigrants constantly and you attempt to associate crime with ethnicity.

    I will condemn any “discriminatory acts” that
    a) actually are proven to have happened
    b) are not flaunted as a propaganda piece with made up additions
    c) have any real significance – someone looking you on the street is not “significant”

    Are you kidding? First, racism is notoriously difficult to prove, simply because it might be one persons word against another (see English football!!!), and because the vast majority of cases are not reported and perpetrators not caught. And, whenever a case is actually put to you, then you can simply claim it is being used as propoganda. Propoganda for what, exactly, demonstrating that racism exists? And we all know what your benchmark is for ‘significance’. You do not think it’s significant that one 14-year-old girld is verbally assaulted every single week simply travelling to school in the Metro in Helsinki, you do not think that a 14-year-old girl pushed off a train and called an APE is significant.

    Allan, with a threshold like that for condemning ‘discrimantory acts’ (you call it racism, if you want, you won’t fucking die) there’s about as much chance of you condemning racism as there is of Pope Benedict pulling on a johnny!

  31. Allan

    Come on Mark, it should be easy. Or is it the case of “racism” again that a Finn knows things better about Finland? Surely you have Mulki Mölsä’s Somalian cookbook and you have heard Zahra Abdulla speaking in the city council? Come on now, try come up with some names in FINLAND. Like your pecuniary elements poster-boy Ali Quassim, should be easy to find a few living ones instead of 13th century muftis.

  32. Mark

    Mark, you made no point there. In case you have not noticed, we’re not in 13th century, we are not in Alberta, Salt Lake City, nor Stockholm but we are in FINLAND?

    I knew this would be your defence. I wrote:

    “I have never once see you associate immigrants or e.g. Somalis, with work, with art, with music, with literature, with science, with family values, with good religious values. ”

    You wrote:

    For the simple reason there is nothing of those to associate them with –

    You made one exception for a book written by a former Muslim (NOT LIVING IN FINLAND) that you champion only because she condemns Islam.

    There was no mention of Finland. It would be my sincerest hope if the Somali community here were to compile a list of people in their community that have gone on to achieve success in varying degrees within Finland. What I do know is that the Diaspora here are active in trying to improve conditions back home, from finding political solutions, to improving health, etc. You do these people a great disservice by constantly connecting the Somali community here with crime, with absolutely no acknowledgment of their work and their integrity and dignity.

    What is worse is the whole idea that an entire ethnic grouping has to somehow prove itself worthy of being considered ‘normal’ by Allan, you worm of an individual; it’s grotesque.

    Many of those people in the list are people also born as immigrants or having settled elsewhere than Somalia

  33. Allan

    “Racism is fucking problem in Finland.”

    No its not, there is no racism in Finland, theres a lot of stupid people claiming that there is racism though. Maybe they are the problem?

    “First, racism is notoriously difficult to prove, simply because it might be one persons word against another ”

    Exactly. You got the point. If a person lies who he is, why and how he came to the country, what makes you believe him in these other matters?

    “You do not think it’s significant that one 14-year-old girld is verbally assaulted every single week simply travelling to school in the Metro in Helsinki, you do not think that a 14-year-old girl pushed off a train and called an APE is significant.”

    Boy that girl gets around, and ages in a week. See now you are repeating this story so much it becomes true. We do not know what happened. I have a good theory of what happened that is logical. You are frothing in your mouth having an orgasm over “racism”. And that other girl, does she keep a memo on every single week, you know like OMG like my mom complains of my phone bill ebvery single week like OMG.

    Significant, proof, none. Muppet believeing what he wants to believe, one.

  34. justicedemon

    Mark

    I don’t know whether you are old enough to remember the debate on Ugandan Asians in Britain, but I’m sure that you are familiar with it, and also with the current condition of the Ugandan Asian community in the UK.

    That familiarity gives you a huge advantage over Allan.

  35. Allan

    “You do these people a great disservice by constantly connecting the Somali community here with crime, with absolutely no acknowledgment of their work and their integrity and dignity.”

    Maybe they should not have violated my integrity and dignity? And yes, how about some acknowledgment – all I have been getting is hearing demands upon demands and then on top how I am a racist of a racist nation instead of a simple “thank you for taking us in and paying our bills”. Yeah. Fine people, real dignified.

  36. Allan

    Mark, is that you they are interviewing? Oh, this is in Denmark. Yes, a nordic success story we should follow example. As we see a good multiculturalist won’t change his views even he gets lobbed with stones.

    This is what you want in Finland, I don’t, I feel such a bad person.

  37. Mark

    Allan

    Maybe they should not have violated my integrity and dignity?

    Well, that is what it all comes down to, doesn’t it – that you were mugged by someone with an immigrant background.

    And yes, how about some acknowledgment – all I have been getting is hearing demands upon demands and then on top how I am a racist of a racist nation instead of a simple “thank you for taking us in and paying our bills”. Yeah. Fine people, real dignified.

    Allan you come on here denying racism and doing your absolutely best to represent immigrants as good for nothings, and then you expect acknowledgement. You are a racist, for many reaons, which are just too tedious to go through, but which I have documented in my replies to you. Even your last sentence is racist. You set up a situation where you (Finland) is giving and the immigrants are just taking and must be grateful. While many are grateful for their opportunities here, they would not and should not be grateful for the kind of response that constantly connects immigrants with ‘scrounging’.

    The only thing I demand of you is that you treat people as people, and stop this racist shit. You have people all bundled up into boxes and you put very negative labels on those boxes. You confuse social problems with problems in ethnicity, ignoring the significant social problems of sections of the Finnish population, while using the problems of the immigration community as a stick to beat them with. You are dismissive of geniune cases of racism, though I’m sure that in a country like Finland, one mistaken case of a suspected race crime would be enough to convince have the population that there isn’t any racism.

    Allan, there is racism in Finland. I’ve been told ‘you fucking foreigner’ (in Finnish) by a complete stranger walking down the street in the Helsinki, chatting with a friend. I don’t even have brown skin, just brown eyes and dark hair.

    I’ve seen, I’ve heard it many times and I’ve experienced it. You stand there and say to me these things don’t happen! And I will tell you that you are a complete jerk! It’s not really news though. But as long as you are coming to this blog and peddling your shit, I’m going to be here too calling you out for what you are.

  38. Mark

    Allan you are completely mistaken if you think that I argue with you about racism because I’m defending an ideology. I don’t have a ‘multicultural’ agenda. It means nothing to me except that it states that people should be allowed the freedom to express something of their own cultural heritage, regardless of where they have moved to. That seems perfectly reasonable, and I cannot see why you object so strongly to that.

    However, it’s clear that you associate ‘multicultural’ with ‘mass immigration’, which you conflate exclusively with social problems. In doing so, you fail to understand the dynamics of race, poverty, exclusion and racism. You show no understanding and no desire to understand. Your arrogance is simply to say ‘my country gave this to you, you must be grateful’. But the ‘this’ is something of a poisoned chalice for many immigrants living in Finland. A roof, yes, welfare payments, yes, but a job, dignity, a future? Many are denied that because of the colour of their skin. And why? A common excuse given to researchers in Finland is that employers think they ‘won’t fit in’. It’s fucked up thinking, Allan, and it’s here alive and well in Finland. Won’t fit in or won’t be allowed to fit in!?

    Now tell me I’m wrong Allan? Tell me, as a Finn, that they should be welcomed and they should be offered work. Go on, I dare you!

  39. Allan

    “Even your last sentence is racist. You set up a situation where you (Finland) is giving and the immigrants are just taking and must be grateful. ”

    Yes, that exactly shows why there is no “racism” in Finland. If calling out ingratitude is “racism” then you have some manners to learn. You are using the umbrella term of “immigrants” so its not my problem you don’t call economic refugees what they are. And yes, I do expect people to be thankful. If I give a beggar the change from my pocket and he throws the coppers back, I am not going to respect his dignity.

    “Allan, there is racism in Finland. I’ve been told ‘you fucking foreigner’ (in Finnish) by a complete stranger walking down the street in the Helsinki, chatting with a friend. I don’t even have brown skin, just brown eyes and dark hair”

    Yeah, and that is something to whine about? Hopefully next time you get mugged and then I’ll dismiss it as we have bigger social ills, like people wearing wrong perfume. Lets see how you feel after that.

  40. Allan

    Mark, everyone has a “freedom to express something of their own cultural heritage”, except when it is against the law. Multiculture means that immigrants live according to their own laws in self-segregated ghettoes. “Racism” is when the hosting society demands the laws should be the host societys.

    And if I am arrogant, then these people can well be without my tax monies as well.

    “Many are denied that because of the colour of their skin.”
    They would be unemployable in the dark, skin color has nothing to do with employability, except maybe in fashion or film casting. You wouldn’t “fit in” and it would have nothing to do with your skin color, it would have to do with you being a muppet.

  41. justicedemon

    Allan

    LoL – you are funny. And completely out of your intellectual depth.

    Let’s imagine the Finnish Ministry of the Interior is seeking to appoint a Special Advisor on immigrant integration. There are two applicants: Mark and Allan.

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvZLZJmstJ8&w=594&h=365]

  42. Allan

    in the next government, we’ll see Halla-aho as the Minster of Development Aid and Hirvisaari as the Minister of Immigration, and you all shall get what you have been asking for 🙂

    • Enrique

      –in the next government, we’ll see Halla-aho as the Minster of Development Aid and Hirvisaari as the Minister of Immigration, and you all shall get what you have been asking for.

      Yes, a tragic-comic play.

  43. Mary Mekko

    Those great Somalians you mentioned have nothing to do with Finland. Tell us the REAL story of what Somalians are doing in Finland. What kind of jobs are they doing, what’s their educational level, what’s their crime level.l…why, Enrique, can you not tell us who they really are? We just hear that they’re black, they’re a minority in Finland (duh!) and that the Finns are racist and always treating nonFinns wrong. Yet WHO are these people???????

    I have met here in San Francisco a lot of Somalians, Ethiopians and Eritreans. Due to a work-ethic culture, most get to work doing something, even if it’s far below the level of their home-country education. They start businesses, take evening courses, drive taxi and work in restaurants, hotels and cafes. Their men are quiet, and they usually speak good English.

    Perhaps the real trouble with incorporating nonFinns into Finnish society is the labor market – it’s not too easy to get a job OR to fire a person, and the welfare benefits are big and fat. If you cut the welfare to all new immigrants, demand that they go to work and give them the work if they won’t find their own or accept what’s given, then you could have much better results, PLUS the taxpaying native Finns would not resent this influx of the PC- EU-Finnish government.

    If they refuse to work, they’re deported, OR they are kept far from the city centers in special buildings where they must remain until they consent to fulltime work. They would be given very basic cheap food, barracks-style housing, no spending money, cigarettes and alcohol forbidden, any minor crime and the whole family must go.

    The new “Finns” would be seen as people who work hard, study hard, cause no trouble, fear deportation if arrested, and who are on their way to speaking and writing good Finnish ON THEIR OWN, due to their own self-interest in getting ahead. That is the reputation of the Asian immigrants in the USA, so they are not resented by the locals.

    Why a Somalian male would leave the ease and comfort of his own male-dominated, females-do-most-of-the-work culture, in warm and sunny climes, just to freeze in Finland with palefaces, that is hard to understand UNTIL one realizes that he gets a free ride. The females are still doing all the housework and cooking, unpaid, except by Finnish welfare.

    Perhaps ONLY the females should be allowed in, since they’re less inclined towards crime and hate crimes on the street, and they could be put to work immediately in all kinds of service jobs. What money they can save, can be sent down to the Somalian males in their villages, so that they could continue to lounge about, smoking, gossiping, eating and looking at the goats once in a while. Since the males take multiple wives, some of the wives could work in Finland to support their husbands and the husbands’ new wives and kids.

    There! I”ve worked out the Somalian integration problem for Finland.

    What say you, Enrique?

    Why is no Somalian getting his act together to declare how great his people in Finland are? That I would like to read here online. Do you know of such a blog?

    Remember, you can’t fool everyone. There’s a lot of them here in the USA, so don’t fake the blog or the folks over here will know you’re a liar.

  44. Klay_Immigrant

    Somalis in Finland = Charity. Before 1989 not one yes not one Somali lived in Finland so all of them are in Finland because of the bleeding hearts of liberal politicians. And the timing couldn’t have been worse, early 90’s with the worst recession in living memory where unemployment rose to around 20%. Then you wonder why the natives were resentful, while they are losing jobs and their livelihoods because of cuts needed to save money, money is thrown at these backet case human beings to bring them in and exist comfortably. The lack of common sense is truly shocking.

  45. Mark

    MaryMekko

    Mary, go suck on an exhaust pipe. You are in the US, what the fuck do you know about Somalis in Finland? And if you followed the argument, like that prick Allan should have done too, the point was that he has never heard of any Somalis who were artists, scientists, poets etc. Of course, he moved the goal posts when the facts didn’t fit his pathetically small worldview, and I’m not surprised they don’t fit yours either.

    and the welfare benefits are big and fat

    Bullshit. Benefits have gone down from 30-40% in real terms since the start of the recession in the early 90s. Half your so-called ‘household/food income’ goes to make up the shortfall in rent because the housing benefit ceiling means you only get about half or less what you actually pay. It’s breadline stuff.

    Why a Somalian male would leave the ease and comfort of his own male-dominated, females-do-most-of-the-work culture, in warm and sunny climes, just to freeze in Finland with palefaces, that is hard to understand UNTIL one realizes that he gets a free ride.

    Mary, you social retard, you know nothing about Somalia or about living in a war zone

    Why is no Somalian getting his act together to declare how great his people in Finland are?

    55% of Somalians are claiming unemployment benefit. You just insulted the other 5500 Somalians. Many of those are still going through their integration plan, having only been here for a short time. The MAIN reason (not the only one) the rest cannot find work is discrimination in the market place. That is the conclusion not of Somalis blaming racism for their ‘laziness’, but of Finnish experts, like Annika Forsande, the Director of Immigration Affairs for the City of Helsinki. Indeed, studies show that employers shy away from hiring Somalis because they fear they won’t ‘fit in’.

    There! I”ve worked out the Somalian integration problem for Finland.

    Mary, your idea of integration is about as effective as trying to sell pipe tobacco at a lung cancer conference!

  46. Mark

    Klay

    Somalis in Finland = Charity.

    Klay, you retard, 45% of Somalians are being productive, either in education or work. Receiving state support has got fuck all to do with charity. That’s an insult to the millions of Finns who receive income supplements, unemployment benefits, child benefits, pensions etc in Finland.

    Then you wonder why the natives were resentful, while they are losing jobs and their livelihoods because of cuts needed to save money, money is thrown at these backet case human beings to bring them in and exist comfortably. The lack of common sense is truly shocking.

    The natives are resentful because they are racists twats who are easily manipulated into scapegoating the most vulnerable people in Finnish society. Anyhow, Finland fucked up in the 90s because they loaned too much money to foolish Finns who spent their way into a recession, and got bitten when the jobs dried up. The recession was a downward spiral, exacerbated by falling trade with Russia, but otherwise, largely self-inflicted. But hey, go and take your spleen out on the blacks, I’m sure there will be plenty of white Finns who’ll care to join you.

  47. justicedemon

    Klay

    1) When did Mulki Mölsä move to Finland?

    2) People like you said exactly the same thing about the Ugandan Asians expelled by Idi Amin Dada in 1972-73. The racism that led to their expulsion from Uganda was mirrored in the racism that opposed their arrival in the United Kingdom. That was 40 years ago. How are these basket case human beings doing now?

    3) Do you think Somalis in Finland should be ashamed of their origins and try to hide who they are, for example by changing their names?

  48. Mark

    Allan

    Yes, that exactly shows why there is no “racism” in Finland. If calling out ingratitude is “racism” then you have some manners to learn.

    Allan, when are you going to be a man and actually debate what your critics believe and not the floppy straw man arguments you keep throwing out like confetti at a bar mitzvah.

    You are using the umbrella term of “immigrants” so its not my problem you don’t call economic refugees what they are.

    Economic refugees come looking for work, not welfare. That kind of contradicts your point, doesn’t it. Not that you have a point. You throw out arguments like they were cut straight from a BNP brochure. Your not thinking, your not debating, your not making an argument. You’re picking an argument, and that’s a totally different thing.

    They would be unemployable in the dark, skin color has nothing to do with employability, except maybe in fashion or film casting.

    Naive.

    Mark, everyone has a “freedom to express something of their own cultural heritage”, except when it is against the law.

    Starting to nick some of my lines, are you.

    Multiculture means that immigrants live according to their own laws in self-segregated ghettoes. “Racism” is when the hosting society demands the laws should be the host societys.

    It’s like arguing with Ali G, except he’s funny, and he’s only pretending to be that stupid.

  49. Mark

    These are Klay’s words in my post above, not mine, in case they seemed out of place.

    Then you wonder why the natives were resentful, while they are losing jobs and their livelihoods because of cuts needed to save money, money is thrown at these backet case human beings to bring them in and exist comfortably. The lack of common sense is truly shocking.

  50. Mark

    JD

    Yep, I was very young when they first came to the UK, but they’ve done really well for themselves and, interestingly, they also have the most active immigrant-supported repatriation scheme in the whole world. They’re successful and their going home in droves. Maybe that is an incentive to lessen the racism in Finland.

  51. Mark

    Allan

    I’ll throw this one out again, because it’s funny, and true, and I messed up the quotes above.

    Multiculture means that immigrants live according to their own laws in self-segregated ghettoes. “Racism” is when the hosting society demands the laws should be the host societys.

    It’s like arguing with Ali G, except he’s funny, and he’s only pretending to be that stupid.

  52. Klay_Immigrant

    Mark take a deep breath, compose yourself and read again what I said. I thought English is your mother tongue. Where did I ever blame Somalis or any other immigrants for the recession in Finland in the early 90’s? All I said is the timing to introduce them into Finland couldn’t have been worse. Also if someone is brought into a country via the humanitarian route then they have entered the country by charity nothing else because initially they cannot possibly support themselves.

  53. Klay_Immigrant

    Ha you people make me laugh comparing Ugandan Asians to Somalis. Obviously you havn’t got a clue about history. Idi Amin threw them out because they were more educated, resourceful, hardworking than the general Ugandan population resulting in them having a disportionate influence in the economy and being more successful. So it’s no suprise that they adapted to Britain as the majority would have already known English. Now can you put Somalis and their plight down the same reasons as Ugandan Asians.

  54. Mark

    Allan

    And back to this earlier point:

    Now whom do we have prominent in Finland?
    http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdigadir_Osman_Hussein

    Make a better and convincing point of benefits to FINLAND, dearest.

    And you moved the goal posts for a second time. Now it’s a competition between Finns and Somalis about who has the most poets, artists and scientists. Oh, stupid me, I didn’t realise, but then again, that wasn’t your point was it. Your point was

    For the simple reason there is nothing of those to associate them with

    A sensible person when they are shown to be ignorant about a topic owns up to it, and is grateful for the chance to see the world more for how it is. Not you. You state lie after lie and when the truth stares you in the face, you change the subject or you move the goalposts and claim a goal. I saw a great line on Reddit this week, about arguing with bigots. It’s called ‘pigeon chess’:

    “You make your move. Then they kick all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around crowing in triumph!

    That about sums it up.

  55. Mark

    Klay you ignorant fuck. Educated or not, rich or not, they ended up in the UK with nothing, sleeping in holiday camp chalets on the Somerset coast for months, ‘freezing’ in the British winters. Likewise, in those days, there were not many Hindus in Somerset!!!

    They were not exactly welcomed into Britain, regardless of their talents for business. They were called parasites. There were National Front marches up and down England in protest, and the Government even contemplated settling them on the Falkland Islands to avoid the problem of unrest. In Leicester, one resettlement city, the BNP got 25% of the vote. Racial violence was a real problem in the city. Sound familiar, Klay?

    So, he who laughs last….

  56. Klay_Immigrant

    Ah and look what has become of Leicester? Or Birmingham or Bradford? It’s funny how people are allowed to say these places are shit holes (which they are) but if the reasons why (multiculturalism) are said they are suddenly raving racists. I mean what other reason would these places quite rightly so have bad reputations.

  57. Mark

    Klay

    Take a deep breath and compose yourself. Where did I ever say that you blamed Somalis for the recession? I said that you took your spleen out on them over it. Now get yourself a dictionary and find out what that means.

    Oh, yeah, when they come as refugees it’s called charity. Of course. What was I thinking…

    I should have remembered, it’s called the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Charity!, where charity is mentioned exactly – no times!

    Oh, yes, and then there was the 1951 “Convention relating to the Status of Charity Seekers.”, in which charity is mentioned a whopping 0 times.

    How could i be so stupid. It must be catching!

  58. Mark

    Yes, Klay, move the goal posts again. You got caught out being fucking ignorant and even laughing about it. Now fuck off back to that hole you crawled out of.

  59. Klay_Immigrant

    Also Mark one could argue that since Uganda was a former British colony that had only gained independence a decade or so before at the time, Britain had a moral obligation to give refuge to these Ugandan Asians. Now was Somalia part of the great Finnish Empire? Stop comparing the two, chalk and cheese on all levels!

  60. Mark

    Klay I know several people from Leicester who would skin you alive for saying that the place is a shithole.

    Of course, from your perspective, it’s full of them foreigners!!!! Enough said. Klay, you are fucking raving racist! You don’t have to hide it, everyone knows, you daft thing!

  61. Klay_Immigrant

    Your working class background is really showing now Mark, learn to debate properly without insults and bad language. I mean would this sort of behaviour be acceptable in court? Or is your sort of place the ‘Queen Vic’ of ‘EastEnders’?

  62. justicedemon

    Klay

    You talked about Somalis arriving in Finland in the early 1990s. In other words, about the first people to leave as civil war began to brew in Somalia. These were precisely the more affluent and better educated sections of Somali society. The parallel with Ugandan Asians is entirely appropriate.

    However – and more to the point – your attitude to Somalis parallels that of the National Front towards this immigrant group in Britain. Pure racial prejudice aside, how do you know that Somalis will not be similarly successful in Finland over a time frame of 40 years? You have no Somali acquaintances at all, and your knowledge of the Somali communities in Finland is obviously seriously defective (“Before 1989 not one yes not one Somali lived in Finland so all of them are in Finland because of the bleeding hearts of liberal politicians.” Wrong. Mulki Mölsä has been living in Finland since 1985. Everyone who knows anything about the Somali communities in Finland knows Mulki Mölsä. Finland ratified the Convention relating to the Status of Refugees in October 1968, so the bleeding heart liberal politicians concerned were President Urho Kekkonen and Foreign Affairs Minister Ahti Karjalainen. In other words you would be feeling more than a little foolish right now if you were not so pig ignorant about Finnish history as well.)

    You did not answer my question about whether Somalis should be ashamed of what you called their basket case background and should change their names to try to hide their origins. Contrary to the foregoing, this is an area in which you are well qualified to provide insight.

    And as always your snobbery is showing, Hassan.

  63. Klay_Immigrant

    Yes JusticeStupid that explains the high levels of illiteracy among these “more affluent and better educated sections of Somali society”. Give me a break. You should know the ones who get persecuted first in a civil war are the most vunerable and defenceless.

    One thing is signing a convention another is actually following it.

    How do you know about my involvement with Somalis? Remember I lived fairly close to the biggest community in Europe in London and yes I do know Somalis. Their reputation is fully deserved.

    On the name changing front all I can say is each to their own. I would never recommend it to anyone as it should be a personal choice and people’s circumstances are different. But in my opinion since you asked is that for Somalis there would be no point as they will still look Somali, practise being a Muslim and have Somali nationality. No point and counter productive. It would be like for me to change mine to a Finnish name, I’m not fooling anybody. Whereas I changed my forename to express my nationality, my mother’s ethnicity, and language. I didn’t invent anything or pretend to be something I’m not.

    Snobbery? It’s called having high expectations and standards when dealing with people that I myself follow. If people don’t live up to that then expect criticism no matter who you are.

  64. Mark

    Klay

    So, when you can’t argue about the substance anymore, you argue about the style. Calling you a retard is equivalent to your moaning about my ‘shocking lack of common sense’. No wonder you don’t like Leicester, Hassan, it’s full of working class people.

  65. Allan

    “Oh, yes, and then there was the 1951 “Convention relating to the Status of Charity Seekers.”, in which charity is mentioned a whopping 0 times.”

    Yes, 10% of the asylum seekers are given a “refugee status” as they fill the 1951 convention criteria. The rest are cases that are let in the country because of charity.

  66. Allan

    “Yep, I was very young when they first came to the UK, but they’ve done really well for themselves and, interestingly, they also have the most active immigrant-supported repatriation scheme in the whole world. They’re successful and their going home in droves.”

    To Uganda?

    “Maybe that is an incentive to lessen the racism in Finland.”

    How does that make people go home in droves?

  67. justicedemon

    Klay

    And your evidence for this alleged illiteracy of the Somalis who arrived in Finland in the early 1990s is…

    Surely not that completely debunked Vuorio remark again?

    The most vunerable and defenceless did not have the political contacts and resources required to secure safe passage to Moscow and Finland. Do you know nothing about the basic dynamics governing flows of displaced persons?

    Anyway, as Mark pointed out – you are moving the goalposts. You do that a lot. You said:

    Before 1989 not one yes not one Somali lived in Finland so all of them are in Finland because of the bleeding hearts of liberal politicians.

    I have identified one very prominent counterexample to this not one yes not one assertion, but do you have the grace to admit your ignorance? No. Suddenly your intimate knowledge of the Somali communities in Finland is based on your life in London. From this you deduced that there were no Somalis in Finland before 1989. The politicians who negotiated and signed Finland’s accession to the 1951 Geneva Refugee Convention were anything but bleeding heart liberals by any definition, but do you again confess to your pig ignorance of Finnish political history? Oh no! Instead you insist they must have signed dishonestly. So much for the myth of low corruption levels in Finland, eh? What other dishonest promises did these leading Finnish statesmen make? It’s quite clear who is being dishonest and, indeed, profoundly disrespectful here.

    Changing names was a good choice for you because you could also hide your Arab origins and deny your father’s existence in other ways. Is that your message, Hassan? Why shouldn’t Somalis adopt names like Eugene Washington or Mary Jackson and pretend to be USAmericans then? Perhaps it’s because they are not ashamed of their roots.

    No, Hassan, it’s snobbery plain and simple. You have some sense of entitlement implying that you are somehow more worthy and deserving of human dignity than others. You challenged me in another thread to provide evidence of Halla-Aho’s views on human dignity. I did so and then you went all quiet on the subject. Now we can see why. It’s one thing to think you are better than everybody else, but another to declare this publicly as a point of ideology. Even you lack the stomach to admit to that brand of fascism. Better to bulldoze your father’s birthplace before you go down that road.

  68. justicedemon

    Allan

    Yes, 10% of the asylum seekers are given a “refugee status” as they fill the 1951 convention criteria. The rest are cases that are let in the country because of charity.

    This lie has been debunked many times on Migrant Tales, but you keep telling it anyway. Please explain how to secure humanitarian protection in Finland without applying for asylum. This has only ever been possible in the case of displaced persons from the former Yugoslavia, and then on the basis of a special enabling Act.

    We might as well assume that you have VD because you once checked into your local health centre.

  69. Mark

    Allan

    they also have the most active immigrant-supported repatriation scheme in the whole world. They’re successful and their going home in droves.”

    To Uganda?

    Yes, to Uganda!

  70. Mark

    Klay

    Not to mention the threatening behaviour? Your intelligeance is really shining through!

    What threatening behaviour? Behave yourself.

    Intelligence is wasted on the likes of you. You don’t follow a line of argument, you don’t respond when your points are shown to be false or superficial, you certainly don’t give any respect, so why the hell you expect any I really don’t know.

    ¤ Your very first sentence on this thread insulted Somalis – “Somalis in Finland = Charity.”
    ¤ Your second sentence was shown by JD to contain two blatantly false claims. – “Before 1989 not one yes not one Somali lived in Finland.” & “[they] are in Finland because of the bleeding hearts of liberal politicians.”
    ¤ Your third sentence claimed that immigration in the 1990s from Somalia created a huge strain on an already struggling economy, when Somalis represented less than 1% of the total unemployed, and most were from Russian universities and quickly entered university programmes in Finland.
    ¤ Your four sentence tells how the natives were resentful of immigrants, who you referred to as ‘basket case human beings’.
    ¤ Your fifth sentence followed that pitiful low by actually trying to set yourself up as the bastion of common sense.

    And you want respect from me?

    I respect your right to an opinion. And then it ends there. Your opinions are despicable, full of resentment towards immigrants, full of insults, full of inaccuracies, full of ignorance and stupidity. Someone who moves the goalposts every time he’s caught out in a blatant falsehood is clearly not somebody that has any notion of integrity.

    Sorry if the mirror doesn’t reflect the handsome genius you thought yourself to be.

  71. Mark

    Allan

    What is your point in advertising this? The book looks interesting, and Muxlim looked like an innovative idea, although trying to muscle in on Facebook, MySpace, Google and Yahoo is never going to be easy. The company seems to have lost a lot of money – not surprising in this line of business, but unless you have a rapidly expanding user base to keep the venture capitalists happy about their investment, then it’s going to be a loss-making enterprise.

    What’s your point though, why the stupid remark about racism and xenophobia?

  72. eyeopener

    Hi Mark. How right you are in your analysis of Klay’s thread. I already have coined our dear friend as Cassius Klay. Swinging around and hoping for a KO. Brainless fighting machine??
    Certainly. Never read a single right comment from his contributions.

    The weight of his alleged power is in the lower sections of his body. His head is swinging in the wind because it’s so empty that it can’t resist the faintest blow of wind!!

    Like you said rightfully. Intelligence is wasted on this guy.

    • Enrique

      –Hi Mark. How right you are in your analysis of Klay’s thread. I already have coined our dear friend as Cassius Klay. Swinging around and hoping for a KO. Brainless fighting machine??

      Furthermore, Cassius Clay was his FORMER name. He became Mohammad Ali. “Klay” went the totally opposite direction as did Mohammad Ali, who changed the surname given to his family when they were slaves.

  73. eyeopener

    Dear Enrique. In my former home country the word “klay” is an name given to soil that’s inpenetrable to water or liquid substances. “Klay” himself acts confirmingly. My advice as earlier: don’t waste intellectual argumentation with this guy. The thickness in his head is not brains but “clay” . Actually, he has a good self-picture. That’s at best a positive sign.

    Certainly, I didn’t want to insult Mohammed Ali alias Cassius Clay and align him with “Klay”.

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