Finland’s police service: see no, hear no, speak no hate crimes

by , under Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

Migrant Tales reported since the end of January some gruesome violent crimes against Muslims in Finland with the most recent one happening Wednesday. Two of these led directly to the violent deaths of a Somali and Moroccan native, both Finnish citizens.  None of these were hate crimes, according to the police. 

What is a hate crime and why do some visible immigrants disagree flatly with the police’s conclusions?

A Police College of Finland report states the following:  “The traditional definition of hate crime also entails the notion that there is no prior relationship between the offender and the victim. Hate motivation is easier to understand in connection with crimes committed by extremist groups; i.e. in instances where the suspect and victim do not know each other and the suspect’s agenda is to harm the victim on the basis of his or her membership of a specific [ethnic]group.”

And continues: “This traditional definition, however,  is not suitable for describing all crimes committed against minorities that include prejudice against a group. Crimes or harassment can also occur between people who already know one another, and such acts are not always based on one particular hate motivation.”

One matter that sheds a dubious light on the Finnish police is their claim that hate crimes fell  by 15% to 860 cases in 2010 compared with the previous year.

While we don’t have the competence nor the resources like the police to investigate a hate crime, we are members of the community that the police serves.

Even so, the ever-growing discrepancies between some immigrant and visible minority groups versus the police show a distressing trend: lack of credibility.  This can never be a good matter for the police never mind the immigrant community because the effectiveness of the police service hinges on trust.

Trust in the police service can be hindered by many factors. One of these can be the immigrant, who may came from a country where the police are more feared than criminals. In light of this fact the police in Finland must do more work to win over the trust of these groups.

A recent statement by a policeman investigating the death of the adolescent in Espoo show that credibility between the police and the Somali community are significant to say the least.

Instead of reassuring the Somali community that Finland’s streets are safe and that the police are out there to protect them, the police investigator blamed the Somalis for planting racial hatred by spreading false rumors about the murder, according to YLE.

Alan Bruce wrote recently (26.2.2012) on Migrant Tales the following:   ” For far too long many police services have been reactive and cut off from the needs of all they are supposed to serve – through inertia, sloppy standards, poor levels of training or [as in the stated findings of the Macpherson Commission in London] sheer ‘institutional racism.’”

Bruce continued: ” Tackling these problems by a radical program of training, policy and pro-active engagement with [and support for] immigrant communities, ethnic minorities, migrants, women and other minorities is not just protecting the rights of citizens [and non-citizens] but it is also about creating a professional police service that sets standards and proclaims values.”

The tragic deaths and attacks that we have witnessed so far this year should be a wakeup call.  In the present political climate in Finland, matters will unfortunately get worse before they improve.

The police must stop treating crimes against immigrants as routine matters.

  1. Farang

    This comment fell short of our community standards and was deleted by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted.

    RL 11:10

  2. Farang

    You seriously have issues in interpreting Finnish law. What I wrote above was exactly same as what POLICE have said publicly.

    You just can’t handle the truth so you start censoring comments which reveals your double standards.

    Maybe it’s just better to leave you and your kind here alone so you can agree on everything and be happy. Shame on you!

  3. justicedemon

    Instead of reassuring the Somali community that Finland’s streets are safe and that the police are out there to protect them, the police investigator blamed the Somalis for planting racial hatred by spreading false rumors about the murder, according to YLE.

    I would prefer not to jump to hasty conclusions about this police officer’s remarks, as the YLE report concerns the contents of an upcoming broadcast. We shall have an opportunity to hear those remarks in context on 9 May. As reported by YLE, they are formulated as a generalisation that cannot be true, and I am willing to accept that the police officer did not intend to charge an entire community with incitement. Indeed there are still several “Somali communities” in Finland, so it would really be essential to specify which one was intended.

    I certainly hope that we are not seeing the pattern of routine denial and closing of ranks that characterised the police investigation of the Stephen Lawrence murder, as described by Brian Cathcart in an article for the Independent earlier this year:

    Some of the most memorable moments of the Macpherson inquiry of 1998-99 involved the exploration of denial among police officers involved in the first, failed investigation of the murder. Again and again, in baffling terms, they insisted that Stephen’s race had nothing to do with the crime.

    This was at odds with the facts. Five people were waiting at the Eltham bus stop that night, but it was only the two black ones (Stephen and his friend, Duwayne Brooks) who were attacked by white youths who used the word “nigger”. It was even recorded as a racial murder by the police themselves the next day, though that was no more than a formality.

    “I believe that the motive for Stephen’s death had nothing to do with colour,” said one detective. Another declared: “Had he been black, white, green, blue or yellow, he would still have been attacked and killed.”

    If the police have determined the motive for killing Abdi, then they should say so. Otherwise this is an investigative question that remains open, and the appropriate response is to admit this and to encourage anyone with information about the case to step forward.

  4. justicedemon

    Farang

    The YLE report says the following:

    Tutkinnanjohtaja kieltää rasistisen motiivin ja sanoo, että somaliyhteisö itse aiheuttaa rotuvihaa lietsoessaan perättömiä huhuja surmatyöstä. Abdin lähipiirin mukaan poliisille riitti pelkästään tappajan pidätys, teon motiivi jäi tutkimatta.

    I think we can safely predict that discussion of this in English between commenters with less than advanced native speaker competence will risk overstepping the threshold for defamation of a population group.

    Now how confident are you that you can negotiate the subtleties of definiteness in English? When, precisely, should you use a definite article and when should you use a plural form? Is it “German”, “Germans”, “the German”, “the Germans” or what?

  5. Akaaro

    ´´the police investigator blamed the Somalis for planting racial hatred by spreading false rumors about the murder, according to YLE.´´

    It is absolutely wrong that the police investigater to blame us that we are spreading false rumors, because there is no any reason we do so. And it is true that we are extremely feeling discontent about them because they show us injustice and never ending cases when it comes to Somalis matters.. Why YLE didn’t ask Somalis how they see the police allegations, in order to compare with and see both sides opinion. I think they don’t want..because they prefer win-lose arguments rather than win-win situations.

    • Migrant Tales

      Akaaro, this is what is all wrong with the matter with such statements by the police.

  6. eyeopener

    Hi JD.

    We are more acknowledged now about what is happening in the aftermath of the Lawrence murder. MetPol is accused of “institutional racism”, police-officers have been suspended or “put-off-duty”. Police managers have been acquitted.

    And the case is going on and on and on. The argumentations of the new managers get weaker and weaker all the time.

    Let’s wait and see what happening after 09.05.2012.

    Maybe it is about time that a clean-up of the Finnish Police -like in the MetPol- will take place.

    Like I have suggested elsewhere: a thorough investigation of the curriculum of the Police College should be undertaken as well as the “credentials” of its teachers. The practical training more based on understanding what’s going on instead of “copy-and-paste” the learned procedures.

    As suggested by our English colleague a serious approach in turning the Police Force into Police Service should be undertaken.

    Maybe then, only then, respect for the Finnish Police Service will return.

  7. Sasu

    Tässä on sana vastaan. Varovaisuus on kannatettavaa. Poliisi varmaan pelkää käyttää viharikos leimaa koska se voi lisätä etnisiä levottomuussia. Nämä rikokset mustia levittävät pelkoa mustien keskuudessa, koska historiallisesti mustiin kohdistettuja rikoksia ei ole ikinä otettu vakavasti ja etenkin kun rikollinen on ollut valkoinen. Kollektiivinen pelko on jotakin josta etuoikeutetut ovat olleet vapaita.

  8. justicedemon

    Akaaro

    The YLE article is not quite as one-sided as you suggest, but this is clearly a difference of perception between the police investigators and people close to Abdi who are watching that investigation.

    I assume that the efforts made by the police to determine the motive will be revealed when the pre-trial investigation report is published.

  9. I am

    Hi to u people on MT, Hi to all
    I love to see u here, i feel at home on here
    Hugs to all ((((((((((( all ()))))))))))
    I miss uuuuu
    Peace and happiness to the world

  10. Toni

    jd: “If the police have determined the motive for killing Abdi, then they should say so.”

    How about in rape cases, should they tell the motive?

    Akaaro: “It is absolutely wrong that the police investigater to blame us that we are spreading false rumors, because there is no any reason we do so.”

    You are doing it here. And you did that in that line.

  11. Farang

    HEheh 😀 Like Enrique & co are always complaining about Finns dividing people to US and THEM, it’s funny to see Akaaro doing exactly same above 😀

    People like Enrique can’t understand the fact that we are all the same. Finns, Somalis, everyone, we are PEOPLE. Still you are doing everything possible to make it opposite. It’s like your mission to divide people in groups and in every situation you try to find a possibility to divide people as Finns vs others. It is people like Enrique who makes it impossible for everyone to get rid of racially dividing people to different groups.

    As I have said many times before, those people are the worst racists and they don’t even realise it themselves… Sad..

  12. I am

    Farang hi,
    Complaining is okay when people have problems, when there r somethings wrong in law, sytem and … when they need solution, so in this case they are not racist not at all.
    We debate because we r not agree with eachother, it is not mean we hate eachother or we are gainst eachother, no no no, there r debate in a family too, between friends too, so dont feel sad Farang, we r living in same society, we r a big family.
    And we all know whats racist and a racist person are mean,
    We all know that.
    : )

  13. Toni

    “Muslims don’t want to have anything to do with the court system. You think we come to Russia like to some foreign place. But we feel totally at home here. It might be you who are aliens here. And we are going to set the game rules whether you like it or not. And you’ll face bloodshed if you try to stop us… We will drown the city in blood,” he said.
    http://sheikyermami.com/2012/04/27/muslim-lawyer-who-wants-to-cover-russia-in-blood-flees-to-uk/

    That’s the Muslim way?

  14. eyeopener

    Hi Toni.

    As have being said by MT members RAPE is a serious crime. However, in contrast to the picture you want us to believe the reality of RAPE in Finland is a totally different one. That’s what you don’t want to see.

    Why do you always talk about issues that are going on somewhere else? We are discussing Finnish issues here.

    Finland is the world or the world is Finland? Make a choice and stick to that. Your “whip-whap” doesnot make very much sense. Or are you in Hakkarainen’s class?? That would explain a lot of the “crap” you are talking.

    Zoobedooo!!

  15. Toni

    eye: “We are discussing Finnish issues here.”

    I thougt the issue here is that Somalis keep complaining the police is racistic? They want more, they need more, they are not happy with all the free stuff they have??

    So, a Somali issue. And they want bigger (free) houses, more (free) money, more space in dancing floors, etc.
    We all want that…

    And other issue was, what Akaaro told… and I already told my opinion to that. Thank you.

  16. eyeopener

    Hi Toni. I was already thinking what is happening to your brains (whenever!!). MT is not accusing Finnish Police of racism. You try to make that point. Failure again Tone. BLABLABLA.

    Man you should go into philantropy. Whooaaaah, man you are helping them to bigger houses, You have been setting up a banking system to get SOMALIS (not other foreigners) more money. And then also. You are spending your time to get SOMALIS (not other foreigners) to more dancing space. You must be absolutely without any energy after the weekend.

    Still you find time for such a “crap” thread. I know why: you didnot go to your favorite place: HommaZoo. You didn’t get your peanuts. That’s your problem.

    Monkeybusiness Toni!!, Peanuts are a joy for “crap” people.

  17. justicedemon

    Toni

    We all want that…

    Then what is your motive for singling out one population group?

    Substitute Gypsy for Somali in your last contribution and we have a typical rant from any keski-olut baari in Finland in the 1960s, over a decade before any Somali set foot in Finland.

    Change the name, the game’s the same.

  18. eyeopener

    Toni=TobiJug.

    Man. You look like the third Dalton Brothers: Averell. Now I understand why you are in Hirvisaari’s class. “nobody is as s……… as Toni is”.
    🙂 🙂

  19. Toni

    “Hi Toni. I was already thinking what is happening to your brains (whenever!!). MT is not accusing Finnish Police of racism. You try to make that point. Failure again Tone. BLABLABLA.”

    Sorry, my mistake. He or they accuse the police to be blind, mute and deaf about “hate crimes”, meaning they think those crimes were hate crimes because they think so. They think they know better.

    “Whooaaaah, man you are helping them to bigger houses, You have been setting up a banking system to get SOMALIS (not other foreigners) more money. And then also. You are spending your time to get SOMALIS (not other foreigners) to more dancing space. You must be absolutely without any energy after the weekend.”

    I have no uderstanding about this donkey-talk. Somalis are the only ones who complain?

    jd: “Then what is your motive for singling out one population group?”

    I just got reminded that I need to focus on one issue (group) at a time.

    I complain about all “groups” who complain without a good reason. Somalis are not the only ones. But there are “groups” who don’t complain. Are we now grouping people?

  20. Toni

    eye: “Man. You look like the third Dalton Brothers: Averell”

    Do I? You mean TobiJug looks like Averell?
    You have no idea how I look. No wait, I have told some clues… You can try to label me if you like. You just don’t like to be labeled yourself.

    You just love to insult others, calling them animals… You just love your right to be a boss to others. 😉
    Funny.

    If you want to create bad atmosphere you have succeeded. I give you credit for that.

  21. eyeopener

    Hi Toni. I think it’s better you leave this thread.

    Donkeys are even more clever than monkeys. Start your biology education now. Kesä-opisto is now open for guys like you.

    NIce try, but still not any further than HommaZoo. When donkey talks ask Eronen for some carrots. Makes your eyes go funny. Brains go funny is impossible as you don’t seem to have any.

  22. justicedemon

    Toni

    I just got reminded that I need to focus on one issue (group) at a time.

    So you took them in alphabetical order? What’s the next group?

    Swedes?

    I bet it’s not suomalaiset, even though they complain all the time:

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATXV3DzKv68&w=594&h=365]

  23. Toni

    jd: “So you took them in alphabetical order? What’s the next group?”

    You mean I should talk about swedes in this thread? Let’s wait you open a thread for ice hockey…

    So the issue here is not that Somalis feel the Finnish police is deaf, blind and mute? Even when the topic is:
    ‘”Finland’s police service: see no, hear no, speak no hate crimes ”
    “…credibility between the police and the Somali community…”

    You mean this is not correct information:

    “the police investigator blamed the Somalis for planting racial hatred by spreading false rumors about the murder”??

    Can you explane why do you oppose that claim?

  24. Farang

    Toni, that’s not even the only case. There have been other cases also, when person is exported based on too low income. That is very disturbing taking in account 2 facts:

    1) There are anyway immigrants that are allowed to stay even if they have no job at all, and they get welfare

    2) Many of Finns don’t even earn that much money. Actually that 1800 euros is wrong figure, correct one is somewhere around 1600 euros. And that is after taxes, so to get that much, ones salary should be way over 2000 euros per month.

    That is one big issue that need to be fixed in Finlands immigration policy. Lots of people have been denied the permission to move here even when they already have a job here waiting for them, only because the salary is not high enough. That is sick, considering that Finland lets lots of social immigrants in, who doesn’t even have a job and they are totally on welfare.

    • Mark

      Farang

      That is one big issue that need to be fixed in Finlands immigration policy.

      This is one big issue you obviously don’t understand, much like the big issue of immigration. JD has put you straight on yet another red herring you numbskulls keep throwing into the debate like they are somehow defining issues. A big issue? lol. You mean something that you think you can use to bash immigrants who come here without work even more.

      That is sick, considering that Finland lets lots of social immigrants in.

      There is no such thing as a ‘social immigrant’. There is no reference to such a kind of immigrant, so how can it be that Finland lets them in? This is a bit like deciding that all IT-related immigrant worders to be referred to henceforth as Silicon people. So, let’s see – “it’s sick, considering that Finland lets lots of silicon immigrants in.” Sounds about right? It’s about as meaningful as your contribution.

      Of course, what you meant is immigrants that will need some kind of support during their integration period. Well, that’s so terrible isn’t it.

      Much better for Finland to go out and steal the workers from other countries, defrauding those countries out of highly educated, highly skilled workers, leaving that country poorer and struggling to meet its own labour needs. Who cares about that? Not Finland. In the big scheme of things, Finland’s international aim is to be a major labour trafficker, trading human beings for profit, with absolutely no consideration to anyone’s humanitarian needs. Finland wants something for nothing – and because of that, they are quite prepared to tear up every useful Human Rights convention written since the last world war so they can go ‘shopping’ for immgrant workers abroad.

      Except it’s not Finland is it? It’s the Perussuomalaiset and their barmy army of political cronies who think it’s fine to talk about immigrants getting ‘something for nothing’ (dubious claim at best) and speak not one word about the real agenda, which is for Finland to ‘get something for nothing’! I mean if you are telling us constantly that it’s wrong for individual immigrants to get ‘something for nothing’, how on earth can it be right for an entire nation state? I don’t get it!

  25. justicedemon

    Toni

    I warned above that it would be tricky to discuss this without defaming a population group. Ricky’s formulation is fine, as it refers to a particular subset of individuals. On the other hand, I’m not sure that the police officer concerned acted wisely in publicly accusing that subset of incitement, if indeed this is what has happened. We shall have to wait until the programme is broadcast to gain a fairer impression.

    As I also indicated above, there is a chilling similarity between the chief investigator’s remarks and those of the detectives who denied that the Stephen Lawrence murder was racially motivated in 1993.

    That palpably false assessment stirred up a similar reaction from the Lawrence family and their close associates that eventually exposed serious shortcomings in the London police.

  26. justicedemon

    Toni

    The police officer in the case that you linked to was clearly acting on outdated information. This does not surprise me under the circumstances.

    I think that these cases mainly expose inadequate resources allocated to in-service training of police officers engaged in administrative duties. Ivalo has very few immigrants and the local police department processes very few citizenship applications, so it’s hardly surprising that the police are not up to speed in this area of their work.

    Even so, it can be irritating to hear that someone has been denied service for this reason. On various occasions over the years I have had cause to send a sharply worded note to the local nimismies in such cases. Fortunately this is generally enough to get things moving in the right direction (I’ve even had quite a few apologies over the years).

    Quite why the Interior Administration continues to process these purely administrative matters through local police stations is not clear. There are other local branches of the same government department that specialise in administrative procedures.

  27. justicedemon

    Farang

    That is one big issue that need to be fixed in Finlands immigration policy. Lots of people have been denied the permission to move here even when they already have a job here waiting for them, only because the salary is not high enough.

    The Ivalo example concerned a citizenship application. The size of the applicant’s income has not been relevant in such applications since June 2003. Income and taxation details are only requested in order to verify that the income is lawful.

    The financial aspect that you are referring to concerns migrant workers from outside of the European Economic Area. One key condition of issuing a residence permit for the purpose of employment is that the job pays a lawful living wage.

    The main rule is that pay should at least match the minimum rate specified in the collective agreement for the type of work concerned, and a secondary rule (applying to part-time employment and to work that is not covered by a collective agreement) is that the total pay should correspond to the “employment history” condition, In other words, the job should pay enough to ensure that the employee will accumulate the working history that is a condition of receiving unemployment benefit (currently EUR 1,103 per month).

    The aim of this rule should be obvious. It is illegal to pay less than collective agreement rates and it is manifestly exploitative to pay so little for full-time work that the employee does not even qualify for unemployment benefit when the work ends.

    The figure of EUR 1,800 per month in the Ivalo case was based on the Interior Ministry rule governing the minimum income required to support a family of one adult (EUR 900) and two children (2 x EUR 450) for the purposes of family reunification. As noted above, no such requirement applies in citizenship applications. This was a clear error on the part of the police officer concerned.

  28. Toni

    Farang: “That is one big issue that need to be fixed in Finlands immigration policy. ”

    I agree. Some people get everything free and their moms are sent here to enjoy free life.
    Then some moms are sent out, because they don’t get payd enough.

    Farang: “1) There are anyway immigrants that are allowed to stay even if they have no job at all, and they get welfare”

    My thought exactly.

  29. D4R

    Farang: Toni, that’s not even the only case. There have been other cases also, when person is exported based on too low income. That is very disturbing taking in account 2 facts:

    1) There are anyway immigrants that are allowed to stay even if they have no job at all, and they get welfare

    2) Many of Finns don’t even earn that much money. Actually that 1800 euros is wrong figure, correct one is somewhere around 1600 euros. And that is after taxes, so to get that much, ones salary should be way over 2000 euros per month.

    That is one big issue that need to be fixed in Finlands immigration policy. Lots of people have been denied the permission to move here even when they already have a job here waiting for them, only because the salary is not high enough. That is sick, considering that Finland lets lots of social immigrants in, who doesn’t even have a job and they are totally on welfare.

    ””

    Yes but those immigrants whom you like to call “social imigrants” are refuges, they escaped with their lifes, it’s true when first they enter Finland they receive welfare but many of them then learn the language and start getting jobs and pay taxes. How about a hypocritical racist like you talks about how many immigrants whom you like to call “social immigrants” are working after short period of welfare receive?

  30. Toni

    D4R: “How about a hypocritical racist like you talks about how many immigrants whom you like to call “social immigrants” are working after short period of welfare receive?”

    I hope half of them. But it doesn’t mean some of them are allowed to be so arrogant.

  31. D4R

    Toni: Muslims don’t want to have anything to do with the court system. You think we come to Russia like to some foreign place. But we feel totally at home here. It might be you who are aliens here. And we are going to set the game rules whether you like it or not. And you’ll face bloodshed if you try to stop us… We will drown the city in blood,” he said.
    http://sheikyermami.com/2012/04/27/muslim-lawyer-who-wants-to-cover-russia-in-blood-flees-to-uk/

    That’s the Muslim way?

    There you go with your stupid generalization, that’s one sick mans comment, not all moslims are blood thirsty people, majority of moslims are peaceful, Toni when will you guys stop generalizing a whole group of people? it just makes your retarded.

  32. D4R

    Toni: I thougt the issue here is that Somalis keep complaining the police is racistic? They want more, they need more, they are not happy with all the free stuff they have??

    So, a Somali issue. And they want bigger (free) houses, more (free) money, more space in dancing floors, etc.
    We all want that…

    And other issue was, what Akaaro told… and I already told my opinion to that. Thank you.

    Two words Toni —————————->psychiatric evaluation.

  33. D4R

    Toni, Im sure when you’re in Hommazoo you make alot of sense there, to yourself and to others who participate, but let me tell you something and put this in your head, you’re not making sense in here and outside the hommazoo, that’s for sure.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Toni: I have no uderstanding about this donkey-talk. Somalis are the only ones who complain?

      Good point, D4R. If you belong to the PS you can defame, insult and get elected and hold office. You get rewarded for bashing other groups.

  34. D4R

    Toni: I just got reminded that I need to focus on one issue (group) at a time.

    This says alot about your motives, so you want to single out only one group? hmmmm interesting but im not surprised.

  35. Toni

    D4R: “that’s one sick mans comment”

    And how many of those “ones” we can handle?

    D4R: “not all moslims are blood thirsty people”

    Yes, I know. But you only need few…

    D4R: “Toni when will you guys stop generalizing a whole group of people?”

    I haven’t even started. I have told many times I know nice muslims.

    D4R: “psychiatric evaluation.”

    For all the Finns and some foreigners too? 😉

    D4R: “This says alot about your motives, so you want to single out only one group? ”

    No, but eye/jd told me to do so. I was talking about all the groups who cause problems… And by “group” I don’t mean all Somalis, all Romanis, all Estonians, all no-one.

  36. D4R

    Toni: I agree. Some people get everything free and their moms are sent here to enjoy free life.
    Then some moms are sent out, because they don’t get payd enough.

    It’s called family reunion, every immigrant whose already here deserve a reunion with his family despite what a racist like you thinks of that, and nothing is for free, those immigrants who receive welfare are going to pay back as soon as they get in to work life, so it would be beneficial for Finland to help these people in to education and possible to lead them to work life so everyone is in win win situation, but racist like you will never stop nagging about vicible immigrants no matter what.

  37. D4R

    Toni: I hope half of them. But it doesn’t mean some of them are allowed to be so arrogant.

    This sentence dont make any sense, go back to it and rephrase it, but make sure to think before you rephrase it so to make it sense.

  38. D4R

    Toni: D4R: “that’s one sick mans comment”

    And how many of those “ones” we can handle?

    D4R: “not all moslims are blood thirsty people”

    Yes, I know. But you only need few…

    D4R: “Toni when will you guys stop generalizing a whole group of people?”

    I haven’t even started. I have told many times I know nice muslims.

    D4R: “psychiatric evaluation.”

    For all the Finns and some foreigners too?

    D4R: “This says alot about your motives, so you want to single out only one group? ”

    No, but eye/jd told me to do so. I was talking about all the groups who cause problems… And by “group” I don’t mean all Somalis, all Romanis, all Estonians, all no-one.

    Does this guy make any sense to you guys? to me he doesn’t.

  39. Toni

    (About some Somalis = not all Somalis)
    Especially some Somalis keep telling their free houses are too small and they demand getting bigger free houses.
    Then some of them demand the police has to stop treating them racistic. When all police does is to ask their papers. They just don’t want to be nice but complain even we are very nice to them.

    Few times ago some Somalis tried to explain Finland is the only country that treats them badly.
    Now they tell racism is growing but Finland is still treating them as badly as others do.
    I wonder when they start telling the truth…

    Now they tell Sweden is a better place for them than Finland. Same time they write a lot of articles where they complain about Swedih heath care system. Here they don’t much make a noice about that?

    In Finland the Finns complain about so many doctors are foreigners who don’t understand the language. We complain about so many foreign thiefs (mainly from Russia and Estonia, and Romanis).

  40. Mark

    Toni

    You offer these interesting observations.

    Especially some Somalis keep telling their free houses are too small and they demand getting bigger free houses.

    So what!

    Few times ago some Somalis tried to explain Finland is the only country that treats them badly.

    So what!

    Then some of them demand the police has to stop treating them racistic. When all police does is to ask their papers.

    So what!

    In Finland the Finns complain about so many doctors are foreigners who don’t understand the language.

    So what!

    We complain about so many foreign thiefs (mainly from Russia and Estonia, and Romanis).

    So what!

    And exactly how many people are we talking about? A dozen? ONE?

    Who cares! Are you really that unbelievably naive that you imagine everyone in this world is happy with everything? I thought the one absolutely nailed-on certainty with human beings is that we complain about stuff! You’re even here now complaining about other people complaining! I’m complaining about you complaining about immigrants complaining! Get the point, yet?

    But exactly how does any of this affect you? And if it does affect you, why on earth can’t you put it into some kind of perspective? It’s a big world out there.

    This stuff is about as important as a spot on an elephant’s arse!

    And yet you put it forward as somehow relevant to a serious political debate about immigration? Do you get out much?

  41. Toni

    Mark: “But exactly how does any of this affect you?”

    I think those are some of the reasons some of them are not liked here… But you already knew it. Still you wonder why…

  42. Mark

    Toni

    Mark: “But exactly how does any of this affect you?”

    I think those are some of the reasons some of them are not liked here… But you already knew it. Still you wonder why…

    What a crock of shit. Talk about a pathetic excuse to ‘not like’ some people. If moaning or complaining about things was as strong a criteria for not liking ‘some people’, then there would not be much liking in this world.

    It’s childish nonsense – except that you muppets actually expect sane people to take you seriously when you offer this nonsense as being the basis for real politics.

    I hear Finns moan every day about all sorts of different things – work, relatives, the government, the weather, their houses, their salaries, their cars….there is really no end to their moaning. What am I to make of that?

    You still haven’t answered the question of how many Somalis have moaned about the size of their flat?

  43. Toni

    Mark. “There is no reference to such a kind of immigrant, so how can it be that Finland lets them in?”

    That is a problem they let them here. It creates bad atmosphere.

    Mark: “immigrants that will need some kind of support during their integration period. Well, that’s so terrible isn’t it.”

    But even immigrants themselves keep telling current way, how we pay everything, is not a good way. It is not “helping” them.

    Mark: “Much better for Finland to go out and steal the workers from other countries, defrauding those countries out of highly educated, highly skilled workers, leaving that country poorer and struggling to meet its own labour needs. Who cares about that? Not Finland.”

    That is indeed the best for Finland. So, you believe when we import people from Africa, that is a better way to help?
    It is also most expensive way… and are you sure it is the best way?

    Mark: “Talk about a pathetic excuse to ‘not like’ some people.”

    What do you think is the reason?

    Mark: “If moaning or complaining about things was as strong a criteria for not liking ‘some people’, then there would not be much liking in this world.”

    Many people don’t.

    • Mark

      Toni

      That is a problem they let them here. It creates bad atmosphere.

      I thought you muppets were claiming that everything is fine here in Finland and that we were liars to say there was a bad atmosphere here? Make your mind up, Toni!

      It seems to me that the bad atmosphere is created by a small minority of Finns that do not like at any costs having black immigrants or any immigrants that look, dress or worship in a significantly different way to Finns.

      But even immigrants themselves keep telling current way, how we pay everything, is not a good way. It is not “helping” them.

      Has no-one told you Toni that PS are pro-welfare system? And what exactly is meant by ‘pay everything’? That is utter rubbish. There are fixed benefits, fixed terms for housing, fixed training schemes, fixed integration allowances. There is no ‘pay everything’ about it. Likewise, these immigrants on the whole will eventually pay taxes or bring up future workers. I don’t see anyone complaining about hundreds of thousands of children in Finland for whom we ‘pay everything’! All new workers need time to adjust and train. Immigrants are much quicker and cheaper in this process than newborn Finns.

      That is indeed the best for Finland. So, you believe when we import people from Africa, that is a better way to help?
      It is also most expensive way… and are you sure it is the best way?

      You failed completely to acknowledge the moral hypocrisy of the argument. Are you too stupid to see the point that was being made? Or did you simply choose to ignore it because it made you feel uncomfortable to be exposed in your hypocricy?

      What is wrong with people from Africa? I see no problem with letting Africans into Finland, unless some Finns are racist. In which case, I would say, time to grow up.

      What do you think is the reason?

      I don’t think that the majority of Finns do not like African, or Somali etc, or Muslim immigrants. I think most people are perfectly capably of judging on an individual basis. I think most people can see that there will be issues along the way, there are some differences, but that most people see this is perfectly understandable and not an issue leading in most cases to any major problems.

      I think that a significant and vocal minority of Finns are multiphobic hate junkies, who for reasons of macho crap and failed identity politics seek to scapegoat a minority in order to impose on the majority a sense of cultural and national crisis.

  44. Akaaro

    Toni. ´´ We complain about so many foreign thiefs (mainly from Russia and Estonia, and Romanis).´´
    When Russian thief takes your mom’s clothes, and she asks you for help what do you do. you said mom, that is not our clothes it belongs to our neighbor.bcause you can do nothing about that. PS and some other parties are busy to defame and attack Somalis and other foreingers while Russia demands each year thousands for free visas to come to Finland, or free visa entering. Toni What you need to think or tackle is Why Finland ever request to join Nato. Do you ask yourself why or did you ask PS part why. then you will understand that we are not thread to finns, some of us were born here, some come when they were young and we are part of community.

  45. Mark

    Toni

    This is the argument being made by PS:

    Much better for Finland to go out and steal the workers from other countries, defrauding those countries out of highly educated, highly skilled workers, leaving that country poorer and struggling to meet its own labour needs.

    They are telling us constantly that it’s morally wrong for individual immigrants to get ‘something for nothing’, but in the same breath, it’s okay for the Finnish nation state to try to get something for nothing in the way of already trained highly skilled workers. Hypocrisy

    And you still haven’t said how many Somalis are moaning about the size of their flats. This was your opinion put forward. So what did you base it on? Did you hear it from a friend of a friend? Did you read it in a newspaper? Did you speak to some Somalis? How many, Toni? Because if you want this argument to be taken seriously for half a second, then you need to explain how it is that you came to this conclusion that:

    “especially some Somalis keep telling their free houses are too small and they demand getting bigger free houses.”

    Come on Toni, on what do you base this conclusion? You must base it on something. What was the source for this conclusion? You make this claim, then you have to back it up somehow.

    Otherwise, it’s just rumours, isn’t it! It’s just idle gossip, isn’t it? It’s just mischief-making, isn’t it? It’s just picking on immigrants, ‘especially Somalis’, isn’t it? It’s just racism dressed up as moral superiority, isn’t it?

  46. Toni

    Akaaro: “When Russian thief takes your mom’s clothes, and she asks you for help what do you do. you said mom, that is not our clothes it belongs to our neighbor.”

    ??

    Akaaro: “PS and some other parties are busy to defame and attack Somalis and other foreingers while Russia demands each year thousands for free visas to come to Finland, or free visa entering.”

    PS is concerned the threat Russia represents. I don’t know about visas..

    Akaaro: “Toni What you need to think or tackle is Why Finland ever request to join Nato.”

    Has Fnland requested to join Nato? I believe they will accept us if we ask to join, and if we pay enough.

    Akaaro: “Do you ask yourself why or did you ask PS part why.”

    Nato can give as support we need against Russia.

    Akaaro: “then you will understand that we are not thread to finns, some of us were born here, some come when they were young and we are part of community.”

    I didn’t understand. But yes, I feel some of you are a part of our community. As I feel some of the Finns don’t belong here.

  47. Toni

    Mark: “and that we were liars to say there was a bad atmosphere here?”

    There are many different atmospheres… Muslims and Somalis and other foreigners are treated nice here.

    Mark: “I don’t see anyone complaining about hundreds of thousands of children in Finland for whom we ‘pay everything’!”

    But they are our children! They come first in our mind!

    Mark: “What is wrong with people from Africa? I see no problem with letting Africans into Finland, unless some Finns are racist.”

    I believe the problem is that some African groups are a problem. That is what many people think. Even many Africans think that way.

  48. Mark

    Toni

    There are many different atmospheres… Muslims and Somalis and other foreigners are treated nice here.

    Treated nice is not the same as saying that ‘it creates a bad atmosphere’. What DOES THIS MEAN? And what does it mean to say there are many different atmospheres? What is this – a cosmology lesson?

    But they are our children! They come first in our mind!

    You should recognise that immigrants are also the children of other people too. I presume that when you say ‘they come first’, you mean also the children of other Finns, of people you do not know from Adam? Of 5 million Finns, you know perhaps a few thousand, and only a hundred or so do you know reasonably well. The vast vast majority of Finns are complete strangers to you. If you can extend your sense of humanity to these strangers, then why can you not extend the same humanity to other strangers, from further afield, who are now also part of this broader family that is the Finnish nation? What is stopping you?

    I believe the problem is that some African groups are a problem. That is what many people think. Even many Africans think that way.

    How many people think this, Toni? 10%, 5% or 1%?

    Africa is a VAST continent with thousands of different peoples. Of course there are people there who think other people there are a problem. We are all human beings, and we all have a nasty habit of making war with our neighbour. I hardly think you quoting this basic reality is somehow a justification for making war with immigrant neighbours here in Finland.

    So, why don’t you get to the important stuff that you chose to ignore. Too stupid to understand the points? Were the points made too smart for you? Are you incapable of stating clearly what it is that an opponent of yours actually thinks? Do you just come over all dazed and stupid when a critic of yours says something that doesn’t ‘fit’ into your view of the world?

    Answer the questions, Toni. Or are you just here as a racist slogan warrior?

  49. Toni

    Mark: “Treated nice is not the same as saying that ‘it creates a bad atmosphere’. What DOES THIS MEAN? And what does it mean to say there are many different atmospheres?”

    The atmosphere among some foreigners is that Finland is a great place.
    The atmosphere with some of the Finns is that we start to have same problem as other countries.

    Mark: “You should recognise that immigrants are also the children of other people too.”

    Read again: Our children come first. Then the children of others. That is how you take care of your family.

    Mark: “I presume that when you say ‘they come first’, you mean also the children of other Finns”

    My children first, then my family’s children, then the children I know or people I like, then other children in the town, etc.

    It is the question of who needs help more and who gets my help first. That’s how most people think.

    Mark: “How many people think this, Toni? 10%, 5% or 1%?”

    Allmost no-one likes Romanis. 99% of Finns don’t want Romani family as a neighbour.
    Somalis I don’t know, perhaps 80%. But from those who own their home it is like 95%.

    Mark: “So, why don’t you get to the important stuff that you chose to ignore. Too stupid to understand the points? Answer the questions, Toni. Or are you just here as a racist slogan warrior?”

    ?? important stuff that I chose to ignore?

    • Mark

      Mark

      The atmosphere among some foreigners is that Finland is a great place.
      The atmosphere with some of the Finns is that we start to have same problem as other countries.

      Is that an atmosphere? What does that mean? Problems with employment, problems with racism? Problems with deprivation and lack of investment? Too fast immigration process, not enough resources?

      How many Finns?

      You see, the problem is see is that here on this blog, we talk sometimes about issues of racism facing some immigrants, and we are accused of spoiling the atmosphere in Finland. In fact, we are accused of lying, as if the ‘poison’ is coming only from us, the immigrants, or immigrant-background Finns.

      Now you are telling me that it’s not just the immigrants that think there are issues to be addressed, but also some Finns. So we are not liars then!?

      Read again: Our children come first. Then the children of others. That is how you take care of your family.

      Read again, Toni, whose children? Your own progeny or all the Finnish children first? Who is in this wider Finnish family that is the Finnish nation? Do you consider outsiders are part of the family?

      Allmost no-one likes Romanis. 99% of Finns don’t want Romani family as a neighbour.
      Somalis I don’t know, perhaps 80%. But from those who own their home it is like 95%.

      Well, it’s interesting that YOU think it’s this high and also interesting that you mention Romanis too. So, with so many people ‘not wanting’ these people as neighbours, is there any surprise that there is such a bad atmosphere? And from this, you seem to be suggesting a vast majority of Finns are against Somalis and even more are against Gypsies, who are naturalised Finns who speak Finnish perfectly and yet are still not welcome in Finland. What hope for a foreigner if this is how you treat your own?

      ?? important stuff that I chose to ignore?

      You chose to comment on something I wrote for Farang:

      Mark: “Much better for Finland to go out and steal the workers from other countries, defrauding those countries out of highly educated, highly skilled workers, leaving that country poorer and struggling to meet its own labour needs. Who cares about that? Not Finland.”

      That is indeed the best for Finland. So, you believe when we import people from Africa, that is a better way to help?
      It is also most expensive way… and are you sure it is the best way?

      I pointed out the hypocrisy of this position and asked you to comment. You have avoided the question since.

      You have still not said how you got your information about Somalis wanting bigger houses. This is perhaps the 4th time of asking. What did you base your conclusion on?

      If you do not provide some kind of source, then I will be forced to concluded that:

      – it’s just rumours, isn’t it! It’s just idle gossip, isn’t it? It’s just mischief-making, isn’t it? It’s just picking on immigrants, ‘especially Somalis’, isn’t it? It’s just racism dressed up as moral superiority, isn’t it?

  50. Toni

    Mark: “Is that an atmosphere? What does that mean?”

    Atmosphere is a feeling. You can have many, or you can feel many.

    Mark: “How many Finns?”

    Impossible to say. How many Finns are criminals, or how many Muslims or Somalis?

    Mark: “Now you are telling me that it’s not just the immigrants that think there are issues to be addressed, but also some Finns. So we are not liars then!?”

    Some vasuri, vihreä and other hyysäri may also lie.
    But sure there are a lot of problems in this country. That is why we don’t want more problems.

    Mark: “Read again, Toni, whose children? Your own progeny or all the Finnish children first?”

    And again I copy-paste: My children first, then my family’s children, then the children I know or people I like, then other children in the town, etc. Eventually most Finnish children. Then other children.

    Mark: “Well, it’s interesting that YOU think it’s this high and also interesting that you mention Romanis too.”

    Because Romanis were mentioned in the news that basicly no-one wants them as a neighbour. Somalis were close.. I can’t remeber the exact numbers now.

    Mark: “So, with so many people ‘not wanting’ these people as neighbours, is there any surprise that there is such a bad atmosphere?”

    Romanis have created it. Like Somalis have created the atmosphere what Finns think of them.

    Mark: “Gypsies, who are naturalised Finns who speak Finnish perfectly and yet are still not welcome in Finland. What hope for a foreigner if this is how you treat your own?”

    Funny. Romanis are not Finnish because they don’t want to blend in and mix the blood. Yes, they live here, speak Finnish and have nationality. But they are not “us” if you mean Finns, because they don’t want to be. I respect their will.

    Mark: “I pointed out the hypocrisy of this position and asked you to comment. You have avoided the question since.”

    No time to aswer all questions. Especially those that need a lot of writing… sorry.

    Mar: “You have still not said how you got your information about Somalis wanting bigger houses.”

    It was some radio interview. I have read about it too from some blog. I found something from HS:

    “Joka neljäs kotoutumisvaiheessa oleva somali on asunnoton tai asuu puutteellisesti”, Helsingin maahanmuuttajapalveluiden päällikkö Sari Karisto sanoo. Asiaa selvitettiin viimeksi keväällä.
    Kun yhteen perhekuntaan saattaa kuulua 15–20 jäsentä, pääkaupunkiseudun isotkin asunnot käyvät pieniksi.
    “Olemme joutuneet majoittamaan heitä pieniin asuntoihin tilapäisesti, jopa useiksi kuukausiksi”, Karisto sanoo.
    Perheen yhdistämistä voi hakea myös henkilö, joka itse majailee tuttaviensa luona pienessä yksiössä tai vielä vastaanottokeskuksessa. “Asunto pitäisi järjestää ennen kuin sukulaiset tulevat.”

    And other :

    “Mutta asuntoa ei ole, ja hän asuu jo kolmatta vuotta “tilapäisesti” äitinsä kolmiossa.
    Se ei äkkiä ajatellen kuulosta pahalta, mutta pieneen makuuhuoneeseen mahtuu kuitenkin huonosti kahden lapsen kanssa.
    “Äitinikin kaipaa jo omaa rauhaa”, Mariam sanoo viiden kuukauden ikäinen Rahma sylissään. Kolmivuotias Abhsir haluaisi jo oman huoneen.”

    • Mark

      Toni

      But sure there are a lot of problems in this country. That is why we don’t want more problems.

      So you are suggesting the problem is in the attitude of Finns to certain foreigners, no? You are saying, ‘don’t send foreigners to Finland because we don’t like them and we create a bad atmosphere if they come here’?

      And again I copy-paste: My children first, then my family’s children, then the children I know or people I like, then other children in the town, etc. Eventually most Finnish children. Then other children.

      So, first you criticize immigrants for ‘getting something for nothing’. When it’s pointed out that you are actually asking for this principle to become the official policy of the Finnish state in regard to stealing competence from foreign governments and countries, you fail to barely notice the hypocracy.

      When it’s also pointed out to you that Finnish children all get ‘something for nothing’, you claim that you look after your own children first. When this is also challenged, you finally tag the ‘other children’ on the end, though you started by saying these children shouldn’t get something for nothing.

      Because Romanis were mentioned in the news that basicly no-one wants them as a neighbour. Somalis were close.. I can’t remeber the exact numbers now.

      Which means what, that you disagree? You are one of the 1% that would be happy with a Gypsy neighbour?

      Funny. Romanis are not Finnish because they don’t want to blend in and mix the blood. Yes, they live here, speak Finnish and have nationality. But they are not “us” if you mean Finns, because they don’t want to be. I respect their will.

      And yet they are Finnish citizens, legally recognised. They are Finnish speaking, which is what so many of you numbskulls say is the reason you cannot accept recently arrived immigrants from African or Islamic countries.

      In fact, the majority are even Lutheran Christians, but still you choose to stigmatize them and reject them. So you think that Finnish gypsies don’t want to be seen as Finns? And what do you base this conclusion on? Or is this yet another conclusion you base on rumour and mischief making?

      No time to aswer all questions. Especially those that need a lot of writing… sorry.

      So, you have time to answer endless questions about ‘atmospheres’ in Finland and about attitudes to Gypsies and Somalis, but no time to answer the small problem of moral hypocricy that goes with your central claim that it’s wrong that immigrants can expect ‘something for nothing’? Shame that you don’t take morality or the consistency of your own philosophy that seriously.

      It was some radio interview. I have read about it too from some blog. I found something from HS:

      So, no real facts to speak of, some mention on the radio or in a blog and that’s enough for you to come to your conclusion about Somalis and wanting bigger houses. Nothing about the circumstances of the cases in question. Was it 10 people living in a 1 bedroom flat? You’ve no idea and you’re not even interested, as long as you can use this ‘fact’ to bash Somali immigrants.

      But now you’ve done a Google search and you came up with this:

      Joka neljäs kotoutumisvaiheessa oleva somali on asunnoton tai asuu puutteellisesti

      The Hessa article talks about a quarter of Somalis being either homeless or living in inadequate accommodation and YOU take this to mean that they want bigger free houses? tut tut. In fact, the article talks about a family of 15-20 members, and indeed, most accommodation would be small for such a large family.

      In fact, Manager Sari Karisto points out herself that much of the accommodation is temporary and small. But hey, you don’t believe her I guess, even though she’s a Finn, and instead, you imply that the Somalis are ‘complaining about small houses and just want bigger ‘free’ houses.

      And the second example is someone who has been living in temporary accommodation for 3 years, a one-bedroom apartment with 2 children, one a five-month old baby. I think most Finns living in this situation would be thinking about getting at least a 2 bedroom apartment at that point, no? But, hey, you want to accuse them of wanting ‘something for free’?

      Toni, this is really pathetic. This isn’t even complaining, this is just looking to meet one’s basic needs. You have completely misrepresented Somalis. In fact, you are pretty much lying about this issue, implying that they are looking for luxuries. It’s very disohonest of you. Does that bother you?

      This is a pretty clear case of mischief-making and gossip on your part. The only two sources you can provide actually contradict your basic assertion, which was that somehow these people didn’t need bigger accommodation. Clearly you have failed to give this issue even the smallest amount of thought. No, you jumped on this as further fuel for your hate-filled prejudice against Somalis.

      Not only that, but you have revealed further hate-filled prejudice for native Finnish citizens who are Roma. Or did I get it wrong? Are you only choosing to quote ‘other people’s opinions’? In which case, why the hell are you arguing for people you disagree with? I think the hate-filled prejudice is pretty clearly yours. I’ve seen your track record on this blog’s comment threads.

  51. Mark

    So, Toni, you have no answer to the hard questions, only rumours and gossip to offer as evidence for your very negative opinions of particular groups. You have no idea about the moral hypocracy of criciticizing immigrants for ‘getting something for nothing’ while encouraging the Finnish state to practice exactly the same principles by stealing competence from abroad (given your treatment of citizenship as a form of state ownership).

    And you have no problem criticizing Migrant Tales for ‘poisoning the atmosphere’ in Finland one minute, and then claiming that it is actually 80-90% of Finns who dislike Somalis and even Finnish-speaking Kale. You have no problem feeling compassion for the children of complete Finnish strangers, but you do not extend that same level of compassion to the strangers of people who are not Finns. Thus, you put nationality as the prime criteria upon which you practice your compassion – and you refer to this nationalism even under the moniker of ‘family’, when in fact you are more likely to be related to other Europeans than you are other Finns based on genetics alone.

    So, this is your political philosophy? And you want us to share the same opinions?

  52. justicedemon

    Toni

    Some vasuri, vihreä and other hyysäri may also lie.

    You use a couple of interesting terms there: vasuri and hyysäri.

    The first of these is either a pejorative expression for a person who is left-handed (“kurittu”) or merely a literal reference to the left hand. This is how it’s listed in the 8th impression of Nykysuomen sanakirja (1983). Here you seem to be using it to refer disparagingly to anyone with leftist or liberal views. Perhaps you mean the architects of Nordic liberal democracy itself.

    Prejudice against the left-handed has a very long heritage. The Latin term sinister was used by the Romans to refer to left-handed people, but this original sense of the expression is long lost in common parlance.

    The second term is derived from the verb hyysätä, which means to “care for”, “look after”, “attend to”, “shelter” or “keep”. Hyysäri adds a noun-forming suffix (-ri) to this verb, to create a term meaning “someone who cares for… etc.”. An alternative noun is hyysääjä, which is formed using the more common -ja/jä noun-forming suffix. The basic meaning of these expressions is “parent or guardian”, “keeper”, “protector”, “nurse”, “care giver”. This would mean that you could be referring to your parents, but you somehow seem to be using the expression pejoratively, as if there is something wrong or shameful in caring for others.

    I have only seen these terms (especially the latter) used in this way by the extreme authoritarian right in Finland (and by young hangers-on who ape their mannerisms without fully appreciating what they stand for). In this sense, they are as distinctive as swastika emblems and fascist salutes.

    Perhaps you should explain your choice of expressions.

  53. Toni

    Mark: “So, Toni, you have no answer to the hard questions, only rumours and gossip to offer as evidence for your very negative opinions of particular groups.”

    That is what this forum does. Police told some people cause troubles by gossuping…

    Mark: “and then claiming that it is actually 80-90% of Finns who dislike Somalis and even Finnish-speaking Kale.”

    Yes, because of bad experience.
    With Somalis the experience is usually just in one’s head.

    Mark: “You have no problem feeling compassion for the children of complete Finnish strangers, but you do not extend that same level of compassion to the strangers of people who are not Finns”

    I can’t help all the children in the world. It is realism.
    Like in last Tsunami Finland helped mainly Thailand. Why? It was a place Finns liked. Helping all was not possible?

    I do help foreign children too. I have put “a lot of” money to charity. We had a god child many years ago, from Africa.
    If I could save them all, we would run out of food and living space very soon.

    Mark: “Thus, you put nationality as the prime criteria upon which you practice your compassion – and you refer to this nationalism even under the moniker of ‘family’, when in fact you are more likely to be related to other Europeans than you are other Finns based on genetics alone.”

    It is not nationaly alone but a feeling who I should help. Genes are part of selection but also many other factors exist. Even if I had a cousin living somewhere far away, I would help my neighbour and his family first. Even we had no common genes. My cousin chose to live in some other place, so she can live there and I concentrate on living here and helping people close to me. Sure I will help my cousin too, but because it is more difficult, helping here saves more lives I feel close. It depends on the situation too. So, no nationality, no genes, no blood,… it’s a feeling!

    More later…

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