Finland’s challenge in the new decade

by , under All categories, Enrique

The new decade will either make or break Finland. If we are not successful at attracting labor immigrants to our country to plug the ever-growing number of pensioners leaving the labor market during the 2010s, the first one to feel the impact will be the economy.

Due to the recession and age-old taboos of Finnish nationalism, some Finns would rather stick their heads in the sand than face the demographic challenges ahead. According to Statistics Finland,Finland´s population is graying rapidly. As more people retire from the workforce the more strains it will place on public finances and our society.

How many? The number of pensioners will rise from the present 17% (905,000 persons who are older than 65 years) to 27% by 2040 and 29% (1.79 million) by 2060. Better medicare will fuel this trend. Persons over 85 years in Finland will rise from 2% (108,000) to 7% (463,000).

Any sensible person understands that for a country to have a successful and dynamic immigration policy a general acceptance by society is paramount. Does Finland have a favorable attitude towards immigrants?  The jury is still out on this question since Finland’s foreign population is still too small to make any clear assessment. However, if we look at immigrant unemployment figures, which are about two times higher than the national average, Finland does not appear very immigrant-friendly.

One of the matters that we will have overcome as a nation if we want to attract new inhabitants is offer opportunities to attain the Finnish dream.The same matters that makes us want to live here must rub off on those who may choose to move here.

Despite our successful welfare society founded on liberal democratic values, the weight of our history continues to muddy our view of the outside world and of outsiders. It has made us liberal in our perceptions of society but also extremely conservative because we have always felt that we are in danger of being devoured by a foreign power.

Knowledge of our history is vital but more important is how we see the future.

  1. Tony Garcia

    Very good post. The challenges are there alright. Finland could do what has been suggested or…

    1. Take advantage of this year’s baby boom and lunch a massive campaign to this direction. Also giving good incentive for parents who want more children like better maternity leave and child benefit. Maybe tax allowances to families with more than 3 children.

    2. Increase the retirement age. For that would be necessary to bring the whole society together, including labour unions, explaining the problems ahead.

    3. Maybe some changes here and there in the welfare system.

    It’s vital for the future of Finland that the nation follows Enrique’s advice. Don’t stick the head in the sand and pretend that mass immigration will be beneficial to the country. You just can’t fall to the multicultural mambo-jambo that people from a semi-primitive society like Somalia, Iraq or Afghanistan can be helpful for a highly technological country like Finland. In doubt you just need to look around, Sweden, France or UK are a good start.

    I know that some suggestions are bitter, however the problem is out there and you need to pick the lesser of two evils.

    It’s this or Malmö, what do you prefer?

    • Enrique

      Hi Tony, I hope you are well. Thanks to Finland’s social welfare system, children have been given a lot of support. Raising the reitrement age will be very topical even though some politicians have given the impression that this will not happen. Finland, or any society in fact, should be open enough to accept new members, reap the benefits of its cultural diversity and inspire.

      Malmö is an extreme case but a real one that we should avoid in Finland.

      Are you going to spend New Year in Brazil?

  2. Tiwaz

    -One of the matters that we will have overcome as a nation if we want to attract new inhabitants is offer opportunities to attain the Finnish dream.The same matters that makes us want to live here must rub off on those who may choose to move here.”

    One that matters is that immigrants stop being imbeciles and those who would pander them stop being imbeciles as well.

    Opportunities are there, problem which immigrants and those who cry how immigrants are treated “wrong” fail to see is that immigrants lack skills to grab them.

    Your average immigrant or refugee comes to Finland with very idiotic question and assumption attached to it.

    Question they have is “Where can I get a job where I do not need Finnish?” and assumption attached is “In Finland, it is not necessary to know Finnish”.

    That is, essentially, pinnacle of stupidity.

    What Finland REALLY needs to do is hammer into heads of immigrants the right question. “How I learn Finnish most proficiently”. Everything they do must aim at adjusting to Finnish society and that starts by learning the language, as language and culture are very much connected.

    But multiculturalists try to sabotage this sensible route by trying to support the idiotic “In Finland, it is not necessary to know Finnish”-assumption. All in name of multiculturalism.

    Of course, issues do not end there. Second hurdle for immigrant is that Finland values skills. It is ONLY way this country can prosper. We do not have population or location which would make it possible to run some kind of low-skill and low-education system. It is impossible.

    Because such nations are banana republics in terms of exports. They export fruits grown in favorable climate. Little skill or education needed. Except bananas do not grow in Finland, and what does grow in Finland is limited to rather short period of summer.

    Would be all good if we humans did not have to live WHOLE year instead of just summer.

    Nor do we have population to permit trying to pull off China. Of course, that would mean deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands of people through pathetic living conditions but for China it is irrelevant. Billion is a big number.

    -“Despite our successful welfare society founded on liberal democratic values, the weight of our history continues to muddy our view of the outside world and of outsiders. It has made us liberal in our perceptions of society but also extremely conservative because we have always felt that we are in danger of being devoured by a foreign power.”

    We are successful because we are not divided. 5 million people cannot afford to have their ranks divided into 5 2 million little subgroups.

    United we stand, divided we fall. This is what we Finns have learned long time ago. And unity starts at shared cultural norms.

    This is why multiculturalist societies are failures. They are fragile systems which just wait to collapse on their own impossibility.

    I would also advice you not to speak of us when you speak of Finns Enrique. You were not born here, you were not raised here. You do not understand what it is to be a Finn.

    To you our culture, heritage and nation are just one amongst many. Irrelevant to you as foreigner. To us Finns. It is what defines us. Just like origins of Tony define him. Just like you being Argentinian defines you Enrique.

    Because of this, there can never be Finland which is not also Finnish culturally. Because if it stops being Finnish, it stops being Finland.

    There are many ways to “devour” a country, and multiculturalism is just one which appears up front to be least violent.

    Does this mean we must deny entry to foreigners? Of course not. People like Willie and Tony are ones who will be good for this country. Problem is, right now they are not large enough portion of those who are coming.

    Finland should safeguard itself and Finns remain alert to preserve our nation and society as it is. Finnish and Functional. This would be best solution long term to our issues. And best way to achieve this while gaining benefit of foreigners is to try to ensure that 8 or 9 immigrants out of 10 are like Willie and Tony.

    There will be occasional Enrique who will want to destroy the society where he moves, but that is inevitable. Our goal must be to make certain that this disruptive and destructive group remains as small as possible.

    And that requires tightening the norms for accepting people in, and more rapidly removing those who are not worthy of entry. Eventually this will become huge boon for Finland abroad. SKILLED people will want to move into country where gangwars, riots and other ill effects of multiculturalism are absent. And in order to get in they are prepared to adjust to requirements of this society.

    For safety and stability are things people want more than anything. And multiculturalist societies fail to provide either.

    Sooner we act, less radical we must be in our corrective methods to rot known as multiculturalism. It is same as idea bout Climate change. Longer you wait to start fixing the problem, more radical changes you have to make to get same result.

    • Enrique

      –Opportunities are there, problem which immigrants and those who cry how immigrants are treated “wrong” fail to see is that immigrants lack skills to grab them.

      Have you read the history of Finnish immigration to the United States before WW2? If you want to speak of “trouble-makers” take a look at the Finns. They were kicking and bitching, organizing strikes and unioninzing workers… If you think of it, thanks to their efforts and those of many other immigrants, matters are much better today than they were back then. The one that it whining all the time is you.

      The problem with your “we want Willie and Tony immigrants” to move to this country is that you cannot control who wants to move to this country if they come from the EU. Picking only the RIGHT immigrants that suit YOU is a pipe dream. That is not how immigration works, unless you want to allow 10 immigrants a year to this country.

  3. Tiwaz

    -“Finland, or any society in fact, should be open enough to accept new members, reap the benefits of its cultural diversity and inspire.”

    But ARE there benefits from cultural diversity? Have you ever stopped wondering if benefits of cultural diversity are heavily overshadowed by PROBLEMS it creates?

    One must also look at problems it brings before one can say we should look for cultural diversity. And reality is that such diversity brings far more problems than benefits. It fractures society, it creates conflict and crime as people do not understand that what was ok in their country no longer is.

    It drives people away from one another.

    Every society should and must look first and foremost towards it’s own cohesion and unity, because divided societies are ones with most problems. And multiculturalism is all about dividing society.

    Just look at existing examples. Netherlands, where immigrants cause issues. Belgium, where their OWN cultural group creates problems as Flemish and Walloon populations are at odds.

    France and UK are hotbeds of constant turmoil, UK struggling with it’s own immigrant population giving birth to more and more extremists prepared to use terror to have their way. France struggling with riots.

    Sweden tried appeasement and diversity, and Malmö is the result.

    -“Malmö is an extreme case but a real one that we should avoid in Finland. ”

    So how you would suggest avoiding it while praising cultural diversity? You cannot have one without other, because one follows the other.

    • Enrique

      –But ARE there benefits from cultural diversity? Have you ever stopped wondering if benefits of cultural diversity are heavily overshadowed by PROBLEMS it creates?

      Certainly there are. Take a look at those countries with large immigration populations. Like any process, immigration has its good and negative points. I believe that if society is receptive to immigrants, the good outweigh the negative.

    • Enrique

      –Just look at existing examples. Netherlands, where immigrants cause issues. Belgium, where their OWN cultural group creates problems as Flemish and Walloon populations are at odds.

      Tiwaz, when you look at Europe in general and some countries in particular such as France and Greece, this region has not been a shining example of cultural understanding and accepting diversity. Probably it has a lot to do with these wise tales about how advanced we are against how backward others are. As you know, these fairy tales about other groups were conveniently created to justify European colonization and exploitation of other people. There are many good examples in Europe in the previous century that highlight our intolerance to fever pitch. So when you compare what happened in Europe we are looking in many respects at a sad story. That is why it is important that we learn new ways and become more understanding of other people unless we want to avoid the horrors of World War 2.

  4. Tiwaz

    And again, I want to hear SOLUTIONS, not just “We figure it out somehow”.

    Practical, tangible, realistic solutions. No wishful thinking or fantasies assuming that somehow things will work out if you just wish for it hard enough.

  5. Tiwaz

    -“Have you read the history of Finnish immigration to the United States before WW2? If you want to speak of “trouble-makers” take a look at the Finns. They were kicking and bitching, organizing strikes and unioninzing workers… If you think of it, thanks to their efforts and those of many other immigrants, matters are much better today than they were back then. The one that it whining all the time is you.”

    YOU are one who whines that people who have 0 useful skills are unemployed. CRY ME A FUCKING RIVER! If you have no skills, do not presume to be hired anywhere!

    Did those Finns you try to present as example happen to be whiners who could not do any job available? No!

    -“The problem with your “we want Willie and Tony immigrants” to move to this country is that you cannot control who wants to move to this country if they come from the EU.”

    EU immigration we cannot prevent, but who the hell spoke of EU immigration? Good thing about EU is that it has very few 3rd world nations where people do not even learn to read or write. It is NOT EU-immigrants who are the useless scum we want to be rid of.

    -“Picking only the RIGHT immigrants that suit YOU is a pipe dream. That is not how immigration works, unless you want to allow 10 immigrants a year to this country.”

    In case you have not figured it out… Finland has control over non-EU people we admit. Russian wants to immigrate? We look him over and tell to fuck off.

    It is our right as independent nation. We can be as strict or lenient when handing out residence permits as we want to.

    -“Certainly there are. Take a look at those countries with large immigration populations. Like any process, immigration has its good and negative points. I believe that if society is receptive to immigrants, the good outweigh the negative.”

    And I believe Moon is made of Edam.

    I want facts. And facts fly against your beliefs. Where diversity and uncontrolled immigration go, misery and crime follow.

    There are benefits of diversity, but they are far overwhelmed by negative aspects. You just say “there is good and bad”, but you do not look at amounts of good and bad. If you have scales and put good effects on one cup, and bad ones on another, bad cup would go down like rock.

    -“Tiwaz, when you look at Europe in general and some countries in particular such as France and Greece, this region has not been a shining example of cultural understanding and accepting diversity.”

    I talked about Belgium. Who are famous for being very liberal. And clearly their tolerance and centuries of living next to one another has failed to make Walloon and Flemish populations love each other, sit down next to fire and sing kumbaya.

    As for France and rest… So they have refused to give up their native culture when foreigners demand it! More power to them.

    Pity French fell prey to precisely same stupidity which people now preach for Finland. “We will have crushing shortage of workers soon! Must import more immigrants!”

    French had same scare and they imported people in. Now, there are no jobs for anyone, magical labor shortage failed to realize itself and we have ghettoes full of people who refuse to be French and riot like there is no tomorrow.

    What fairy tales you mean by the way? Fairy tale that there ARE other cultural groups who are completely different from us? Well, perhaps you should open your eyes. It is REALITY. There are dozens or hundreds of cultures globally, and they are not all compatible with one another.

    I also see that you STILL do not give anything SUBSTANTIAL OR USEFUL.

    I repeat: I want you to present us some kind of suggestion how we could have your desired diversity but not cultural conflict and misery like Malmö?

    Do not just say “praise diversity”, because it is not answer to anything.

    You say that problems caused by lack of social cohesion are somehow fixed, but how?
    Your argument here is same as saying that man can fly unaided. You fail to explain to us mechanism which would keep man in the air without some sort of aid. Or even idea of such mechanism.

    • Enrique

      —Are you happy of the proof Enrique?

      Yes, you are right, Henrik. Close the borders and let’s begin the witch hunt for scapegoats. Please cast the first stone…

    • Enrique

      –It so funny how you defend criminals. Are you some kind of a soul mate with human garbage?

      Wow Henrik you really are mean… Please begin the witch hunt. Will I be your first target?

      It is so sad that you equate all immigrants with what happened. I could be as dumb as you and state that since one Finn did something outlandish all the rest are the same. Please get off your high stool and stop judging groups because of one deranged man. It does not work that way. Nor do our authorities act in such a manner.

  6. DeTant Blomhat

    “I could be as dumb as you and state that since one Finn did something outlandish all the rest are the same.”

    But you slander Finland and call us racists all the time?

    I never said I equated anything – the question was “can we pick and choose immigrants” and my stance is “yes we can”. There is no need to keep habitual criminals in the country for enrichment purposes is there?

    • Enrique

      –But you slander Finland and call us racists all the time?
      Then you should sue me.

      –I never said I equated anything – the question was “can we pick and choose immigrants” and my stance is “yes we can”.

      The pipe dream is that we can chose those ideal immigrants we wish. This is not even possible from the EU because there is freedom of movement. Moreover, what kind of “ideal” immigrants are you speaking of? Are they the one’s who appear on the old Lux soap ads and agree with everything you say?

  7. DeTant Blomhat

    There is freedom of movement both ways. If a person comes to Finland he isn’t a resident until he fulfills some factors – if he doesn’t fill those factors he has the freedom of movement to leave. And if there is a resident – from within or without the EU who commits crimes he can be deported and given a ban. Fredom of movement doesn’t mean we need to accept anybody. It means they can come in and ask if we would accept them.

    Lets say there are people who find their place in society and then there are people who do not. Of course the “ideal” immigrant would have a place set up before he shows up. Its unrealistic to have immigrants with no chance of finding their place in society just because you want some multiculture on the street.

    • Enrique

      –Fredom of movement doesn’t mean we need to accept anybody. It means they can come in and ask if we would accept them.

      Nope, Henrik, it doesn’t work this way. As usual, you twist the facts. If he comes to Finland and has a job the person gets his residence permit immediately no questions asked. In the EU we have the four freedoms that came into force in 1992: free movement of persons, services, goods and capital. Why? Competition NOT unfair competition through oligopolies and monopolies as we had in great numbers before 1995.

  8. DeTant Blomhat

    “If he comes to Finland and has a job the person gets his residence permit immediately no questions asked.”

    AND HAS A JOB <= notice magic words.

    You are the one twisting the facts as usual.
    I wrote: "he isn’t a resident until he fulfills some factors" – having a job is a "factor". If he has no job when he comes – he needs to find one, or then ask for residence on other grounds.

    Again I proved you wrong.

    • Enrique

      –Again I proved you wrong.

      Of what? Of you echoing what I said?

  9. hannu

    Enrigue are you stupid?
    No one from EU can just come in here.
    Having job is a factor what helps, well its almost mandatory.

  10. Tony Garcia

    There is a good analyse about the Espoo case and its ramifications.

    http://aamulehdenblogit.ning.com/profiles/blogs/espoon-sellon-ampuja-olisi

    “Ymmärtääkseni turvapaikka myönnetään ulkomaalaiselle siksi, että tämän hengen oletetaan olevan uhattuna kotimaassaan. Samalla logiikalla luulisi olevan selvää, että turvapaikanhakija joka täällä ollessaan syyllistyy useisiin rikoksiin ja aiheuttaa uhan suomen kansalaisille tulisi karkottaa. Hän ei enää yksinkertaisesti ansaitse Suomen valtion suojelusta.”

    “Järjenvalo ei kuitenkaan poliisiylijohtajan päässä kauaa viivähtänyt, sillä myöhemmin hän totesi, että surmaaja saattoi jäljitellä kouluampujia. Perusteluita väitteelle emme saa kuulla, mutta tärkeintä viranomaisille on että kansalaiset eivät kiinnitä huomiota maahanmuuttopolitiikan epäonnistumiseen.”

  11. hannu

    So as i said you dont like freedom of expression, you just cencored “truth does hurt”, i dont know what thruth is but when youre cencoring it was something against your ideal.

    • Enrique

      Hannu, please don´t give me lessons on what is censorship. I have lived in countries where it was practiced. There is, however, a BIG difference between insulting a person anonymously and expressing one´s opinions.

  12. hannu

    Well i can decide that that whatever you say is insulting, many what you have said are indeed insulting. I dont ask cencorship but fair way to express opposite opinion, isnt that spirit of freedom of speech what you despise?
    How “Truth hurts” is insulting against you? Yes i saw what you cencored.

    I have been in real life argument where i could shut opposite by kicking him out of my house or just by beating like leftist commonly do, they really insulted me. I just explained them why i think how i think and most of them had to agree, few enriques blinded by communism and need to have enemies there who wont see truth tho.
    Truth dont need cencorship, it can take all and as saying says “truth wont burn in fire”.

    • Enrique

      There are rules of conduct. You can express your opinion without insulting the person. Moreover, if we speak of racism/disctimination, that may be insulting to you because you disagree. That, however, is not insulting anyone. That is just debating an issue NOT inferring that the person is “mentally challenged because he suffered from malnutrition.”

  13. hannu

    It is insulting since you claim others are somehow better than us even if they arent, like if i claim that my cat should have your job because there isnt enough cat journalists and you discriminate cats.
    And if you arent mentally challenged because of malnutrition then prove it. Shouldnt be so hard?

    • Enrique

      Hannu, I think it is important when speaking of such a heated issue that we do not generalize. I try to avoid this by stating that SOME are in this group. I am personally proud of this blog and those that post comments because we have been able to debate without igniting WW3. There are people from all thoughts and each has their place AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT GET PERSONAL.

  14. hannu

    “AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT GET PERSONAL.”

    Says man who are ready and willing and fast to tell other suffers mental illness, is young, uneducated, drunk and havent travelled when someone opposes his ideals.

    • Enrique

      Hannu, I am surprised that you would state that I get personal with people who suffer mental illness etc… You and Tiwaz have had ample opportunities to express your points of views.

    • Enrique

      Does this mean that I am AGAINST people that suffer from mental illness? NOT. On the contrary, everyone IRRESPECTIVE of his/her background has the opportunity to take part.

    • Enrique

      I NEVER inferred such a thing and it was only a comment made generally NOT to you or any person. If you know me through my posts I don’t like to speak in such a manner to any person. I am sorry if you took it that way, however.

    • Enrique

      Hannu, you know very well that I have never said such a thing about you . nor anyone else!

  15. Tony Garcia

    Happy new year to all.

    I hope you guys have had a great holiday time. I spend 11 days at home with my children, blessed by the “wonderful” Irish weather, and quite busy without time even to write to my favourite blog. Yesterday evening I was quite ready to go back to normal life.

    No Enrique I didn’t go to Brazil, in fact I haven’t gone back there since I left 10 years ago. Have you gone somewhere?

    Anyway, time to get to business, just checking today’s paper and found 2 more sensible minorities who believes that overprotection and double standards are the wrong way.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/6924417/Muslim-MP-security-profiling-at-airports-is-price-we-have-to-pay.html

    The first…

    “Khalid Mahmood, the Labour MP for Birmingham Perry Barr, said it had become necessary to ‘profile’ passengers from certain racial and religious groups in order to weed out possible terror suspects.“

    “The fact is the majority of people who have carried out or planned these terror attacks have been Muslims.”

    And the second…

    “Dr Shaaz Mahboob, of British Muslims for Secular Democracy, said: “We have seen that certain types of people who fit a certain profile – young men of a particular ethnic background – have been engaged in terror activities, and targeting this sort of passenger would give people a greater sense of security.”

    • Enrique

      Tony, I did not go anywhere. But I am planning to visit Argentina in summer. It would be great to watch some soccer games at a local café when the World Cup kicks off in summer.

    • Enrique

      Tony and/or Mateus, just a curiosty: what do Brazilians think of Getulio Vargas? Did you study him at school?

  16. Tony Garcia

    Does this look familiar?

    Ageing population and labor shortage has been NuLabor flag for decades. But apparently that was just a way to achieve a different goal. Are we seen the same in Finland?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1240167/MAIL-ON-SUNDAY-COMMENT-The-faced-truth-immigration.html

    “New Labour has two separate immigration policies. The first is the one it endlessly proclaims to the public of supposedly tough restrictions, raids on employers of illegal workers, expulsions of those with no right to stay here.”

    “ The second is the real one, unwisely disclosed a few weeks ago by the former Blairite functionary Andrew Neather. This is that mass immigration is an important part of the cultural revolution in which Britain is being dissolved into a new and different country. This is accompanied by a widespread belief among the new elite that immigration which provides them with cheap childcare and a great variety of restaurants is an unmixed blessing.”

    “Others see a different aspect – familiar neighbourhoods changed out of all recognition, together with heavy pressure on schools, housing and medical services.”

    • Enrique

      Hi Tony, and welcome back! Thank you for the Daily Mail article, which I found quite interesting. Probably it shows that the immigration debate is still highly polarized, which makes one have difficulty being in the middle of the road. It is like being in Argentina and being a Peronist or anti-Peronist, being for or against the Vietnam War in the late-1960s or being anti-Soviet in Finland during the cold war. If everyone cooled down a few notches, maybe they could debate it as we do many times in this blog. When we are too polairzed in our views we lose sight of some of the facts. I believe that immigration is basically a good matter. Even so, it does bring its challenges like the article points out. But one matter is for certain – it has the ability to change society politically, economically and socially. We can look at countries such as the United States, Brazil, Argentina, Canada and Australia as some examples.
      I personally believe that immigration is good for some people and that some countries may bring the best or worst in a person. I guess it is finding the right home to realize yourself. A bit like finding a partner (wife or husband).

    • Enrique

      –For the sake of our children I hope the hunt, not for scapegoats but for criminal immigrants, has already started…

      Politicians always make me laugh. If we are sincere, there are already tough laws on those that commit crimes (they go to jail). Even though the Sello shooting was tragic, don’t you think it is strange that we do not know what type of a criminal record the man had. Was it shoplifting? Grand theft auto? Financial crimes? Until we do not know this, we should not jump to conclusions. Imagine if we kicked out a person from the country because he shoplifted and a Finn only gets a slap in the hand?

  17. Tony Garcia

    “If we are sincere, there are already tough laws on those that commit crimes (they go to jail).”

    Sorry but not good enough.

    “…we do not know what type of a criminal record the man had.”

    Well we can have a pretty good idea…

    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Espoo+shooting+why+was+Ibrahim+Shkupolli+not+deported/1135251897411

    “his record of numerous criminal offences, including assaults, unlawful threats, traffic violations, and firearm offences. He also had at least one restraining order out against him.”

    “Imagine if we kicked out a person from the country because he shoplifted and a Finn only gets a slap in the hand?”

    Well I think the law is quite clear about this. I think we just need to enforce it.

    “According to the Aliens Act, a person can be deported if he or she is repeatedly convicted of a crime or is found guilty of an offence carrying a minimum sentence of 12 months in prison.”

    PS. Thanks Blomhat for the list. So much for shoplifting…

  18. Tony Garcia

    “it has the ability to change society politically, economically and socially”

    Yes, you are dead right, and this is exactly what we don’t want for Finland.

    • Enrique

      –Lie.

      I am going to terminate this debate. Please read the posts carefully. As I mentioned, it is not my style.

  19. Tiwaz

    -“Even so, it does bring its challenges like the article points out. But one matter is for certain – it has the ability to change society politically, economically and socially.”

    Precisely. It takes politically, economically and socially united and functional nation and turns it into shithole of crime, conflict and misery.

    And then people wonder why most sensible people are against multiculturalist immigration…

    -“We can look at countries such as the United States, Brazil, Argentina, Canada and Australia as some examples.”

    USA: Hellhole I would not want to live in even if they paid me. Rich kids get cool toys, yes. But rest are in miserable situation. And since their economy is practically all voodoo tricks, it is going to be bad decades ahead of them. Made worse by destruction of communal cohesion.

    Brazil: Built on bones of natives who had their land stolen from beneath them essentially. Also “enjoys” the perks of being in top 20 for global intentional homicide statistic. History shows lots of instability in society as military coups and re-establishments of democracy practically skip one another. Democratic-coup-military regime-election-democracy-coup.

    Great show on how multiculturalist society is stable and unified.

    Argentina: Bit like Brazil, only worse. Again, poor poster boy for multiculturalism and it’s “enriching” and “improving” qualities considering how Argentina has long tradition of repressive governments.

    And both Argentina and Brazil are in terms of GDP per capita rather poor nations. Little over 10k for Brazil and little over 14k for Argentina.

    Canada: Did well until they started to receive non-European immigrants in larger numbers. Things worked well as long as immigrants were culturally relatively homogenous group. But with introduction of culturally incompatible groups, illusion of multiculturalist happyland is degrading. When Middle Eastern groups try to import their incompatible cultural values and refuse to play nice with rest, problems have already started to rise. For now, Canada has low percentage of immigrants of this group, but numbers are rising. And with that problems.

    Australia: Land of “uncovered meat”. Despite rather restrictive immigration laws in past, Australia has managed to get few steps ahead of Canada in terms of meeting the ugly truth of multiculturalism. It breeds crime!
    Raping white woman is A-OK in certain circles. And police commissioner who was about to retire dropped the ugly bomb already in 2001, telling flat out that increase in crime was result of ethnic gangs being engaged in criminal activity. This was of course immediately met with highly intelligent response of screaming “RACIST” on top of their lungs by multiculturalist population.

    “I personally believe that immigration is good for some people and that some countries may bring the best or worst in a person. I guess it is finding the right home to realize yourself. A bit like finding a partner (wife or husband).”

    Correct. But that means that IMMIGRANT must move to find country which fits culturally to what immigrant is prepared to adjust to.

    NOT that when immigrant whines, whole society where they moved must change to appease immigrant.

    Always and everywhere, when immigrants and local cultural norms clash, immigrant is always wrong. Established societies have their own established principles. Immigrants have no business walking in and demanding that their cultural norms must take prevalence over local established cultural norms.

    • Enrique

      –Precisely. It takes politically, economically and socially united and functional nation and turns it into shithole of crime, conflict and misery.

      Not so. Socety changes all the time especially due to globalization these days. There are other factors in play. Change is a NATURAL order of things.

    • Enrique

      –Correct. But that means that IMMIGRANT must move to find country which fits culturally to what immigrant is prepared to adjust to.

      This is in an ideal world. In practice people cannot sometimes make such choices. They go where they can survive economically. You talk about “whining” but have you ever looked at yourself?

  20. Tiwaz

    -“Not so. Socety changes all the time especially due to globalization these days. There are other factors in play. Change is a NATURAL order of things.”

    Change is natural, but you still fail to grasp that it is FINNS, true, native Finns, who are ones who define how and what is changed. Not foreigners who essentially just want to copypaste their failed system on top of Finland.

    And reality is also that multicultural societies are failures. They may succeed for limited time if they are “pretend” multicultural. Like Canada which was “multicultural” but in essence was formed by immigrants from Europe. But insert totally different cultural background, like Middle Eastern, and whole house of cards comes down hard.

    -This is in an ideal world. In practice people cannot sometimes make such choices. They go where they can survive economically.”

    So they better adjust to place where they move into. It still does not grant them excuse to whine and demand appeasement that they cannot survive economically elsewhere.

    In fact, the minor detail that they CAN’T survive where they culturally would be “at home” is PROOF OF FAILURE OF THEIR OWN CULTURAL NORMS!

    Thus, they should abandon them and embrace the more successful system.

    “You talk about “whining” but have you ever looked at yourself?”

    Yes. I have. And I am not whining, I am complaining that immigrants whine when Finland is not “like at home”.

    Unlike them, I do not start useless whine when not home is not like at home. I have right to stand up for my home and way of life. As they ARE under threat by people who would instead have them replaced by failure known as multiculturalism.

    Have YOU looked at yourself? Can you honestly say that you have looked honestly at the concept of multiculturalism which you so much love? You admit that “there are some problems”, and then essentially say that they are easy to fix. But you NEVER tell ANY solution or start of solution how to fix them in real world.

    • Enrique

      –In fact, the minor detail that they CAN’T survive where they culturally would be “at home” is PROOF OF FAILURE OF THEIR OWN CULTURAL NORMS!

      Try factors such as hostility, exclusion, racism, discrimination just to name a few important ones.

      Have YOU looked at yourself? Can you honestly say that you have looked honestly at the concept of multiculturalism which you so much love? You admit that “there are some problems”, and then essentially say that they are easy to fix. But you NEVER tell ANY solution or start of solution how to fix them in real world.

      One essential way to begin to fix these problems is by the host society having a favorable – not hostile – attitude towards them. That is a very important starting point to fix the problems that may arise from immigration.

  21. Tony Garcia

    “In practice people cannot sometimes make such choices.”

    Everybody has a choice mate. How many safe countries a Somali or an Iraqi or even an Afghan pass before reach Finland?

  22. Tony Garcia

    You know, one thing that a remember from my years in Finland was the sense of security. Wasn’t only once when I went to work in the morning and discovered that I have forgotten to lock the door the night before. Of course, once the door is shut it can’t be easily open from outside, but yet the felling that nothing would happen was part of life. During the summer was common let those little side windows open during the night, many times even the downstairs windows.

    Today, here in the multicultural/diverse/enriched Ireland, I don’t go to bed before check that all the windows and doors are locked and switch the house alarm on. Here house alarm is just like a fridge, you don’t even ask is there is one.

    You know Enrique, you told us that you moved to Finland in 78. So, for the last 32 years of your life you have enjoyed a safe, organized, clean, modern and civilized country, sorry but I think my children have the same right.

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/2010/01/torkeiden_asuntomurtojen_maara_kasvaa_1347588.html

    “Itä-Uudellamaalla poliisin selvittämät asuntomurtosarjat olivat viime vuonna kaikki ulkomaalaisten ryhmien tekemiä”

    “Ulkomaalaisten rikosryhmät ovat löytäneet Suomen”

    • Enrique

      –You know, one thing that a remember from my years in Finland was the sense of security.

      Tony, higher crime rates in Finland is not exclusively due to the higher albeit small number of foreigners that live in the country. Try factors such as globablization and the coming of age of Finnish society. Finland was a very isolated country especially politically from the rest of Western Europe. Should we thank the former Soviet Union for keeping Finland free from foreigners and foreign investment during the cold war years?

  23. Tony Garcia

    I’m not the best person to tell you about Brazilian history. First I wasn’t never good at it, second I got my basic education during the 70’s and 80’s, the time of the dictatorship. So we used to get a kind of “pasteurized” version of history. When you talk about freedom and lack of it, I know it well my friend. I don’t remember having microphones in my classroom, but many had, courtesy of Uncle Sam.

    Anyway, Vargas was a interesting person, a very charismatic person but a bastard dictator. During his time one would love or hate him, no one was indifferent. His supporters were called “Getulistas” and after step down from his dictatorship he was then democratic re-elected president. Embarrassing but true.

    You know Brazilian history thought in schools are very dynamic, it chances with the weather. During my time line was against communism, so Vargas was seen as a good guy for being anti-communism. I wonder now that we have a communist president, el companero Lula, what would they be teaching about him.

    • Enrique

      Hi Tony, thank you for your response. The same type of polarization you mention in the 1970s in Brazil existed in Argentina with Peron. The 1930s in South America were politically pretty wretched times. In Uruguay you had a coup during that decade that overthrew a democratically elected government and reformed the constitution. Argentina had a coup in 1930. Those dictatorship days are painful reminders. I am certain that our experiences are very much alike. You must be pretty happy that Brazil is turning into an economic powerhouse compared with Argentina, which has been slipping backwards since the 1920s.

  24. Tony Garcia

    It’s too bad that the left wing ideas are not taught as such. You see, when you learn Christianity they are taught as Christians ideas or beliefs. When you learn Judaism, Islam, Buddhism it happens the same, when you learn conservatism you are told that those are conservative ideas, however the tragedy, or very big problem, when having an intellectual discussion it’s that left wing ideas are not called as such, rather they are called “truth”.

    That’s why we don’t have left wing ideas on immigration, we just have right wing ideas (racist of course), because for the left it’s rather right wing ideas or “truth”. There is an unwillingness to acknowledge the there is the left because it’s the “truth”, and of course the “truth” doesn’t need label.

    So, when you hear one the multicultural mantras “the failure of immigrants are not their fault, but the host country”, this is said not as a belief but the almighty “truth”.

    What I have been trying to do here is show to people, based on real world facts, that those are theories only. Because the only way we can have a open and real debate on immigration is when the left realise, not to us but to themselves, that what they believe may not be truth.

    The human specie is a religious specie, the questions isn’t whether or not people will be religious, it’s what religious will they have. And one of the most proliferating religion we see today is called multiculturalism. Today people worship the God of diversity. The problem what I see is that many of these people doesn’t really know what this means. They believe on it, without try to understand it or see its consequences and implications.

    There are many people out there who keep preaching that diversity is good for the country, but if you ask then why, they won’t know that to answer. If you ask then what improvement a Christian school boy will have for having a Muslim class mate, they just won’t know what to say. You may hear that he will be “enriched” but they won’t know how to explain what “enriched” means in practical terms. And of course if you dare to ask more then you’ll see the conversation terminated and yourself branded racist.

    Dogma overrules objective reality, and nothing is more dogmatic than multiculturalism. We can see it clearly here by the two faze discussion.

    1. Denial: problem is presented – social instability, criminality, race card, bogus applications, welfare advantages. All met with the automatic answer – this is not true.

    2. Explanation: After the allegation is substantiated with real facts we get the usual “not their fault” followed by “hostility”, “exclusion”, “racism”, “discrimination”.

    How many times have we seen this pattern (first denial, then explanation) in this blog? And we’ll continue to see it no matter what.

    How long? How much more damage?

    Good questions that I, unfortunately, don’t have an answer.

    • Enrique

      –however the tragedy, or very big problem, when having an intellectual discussion it’s that left wing ideas are not called as such, rather they are called “truth”.

      Doesn’t each group consider their reality the “truth?” Gertrud Stein, a well-known writer, said that “people love what they know.”

      Am I in love with that I know? Are you? What about the rest? I think the matters that set each of us apart are our experiences. That is why it is a bit awkward for a white person living in a white country talking about racism. You would have to be black in a white country to know what it means. That is why in Finland many of the policies and good-intention does not make the mark because they are Finns trying to adapt them to their world through their values. If we had more Finns with immigrant backgrounds maybe such policy would be more effective. So, in answer to your question that everything you say is racism and everything I say is the “truth” is wrong.

    • Enrique

      This is an interesting question that the Aamulehti blog brings. If we look at countries like Canada, where the differentiate between visible and invisible minorities, this is done to find out how many minorities are being employed. In the US they classify people by race in the census to determine that there is a fair makeup of ethnicities in in the electoral district. In Finland the magic classifier appears to be mother tongue. The great fear would be that very, very few minorities are being hired and are underrepresented in city jobs.

  25. Tony Garcia

    I was just researching a bit further and found this…

    http://www.oikeusasiamies.fi/Resource.phx/pubman/templates/5.htx?id=567

    “The intention with the constitutional provisions is to promote specifically real equality”

    Real Equality? WOW…

    “Real equality may presuppose, e.g., that a group which is socially, economically and otherwise disadvantaged is given better treatment than others. Thus treating certain groups of people differently does not constitute prohibited discrimination in all situations.”

    So we make all be equal by making some groups more equal than others. We fight discrimination by discriminating in favor of some. Nothing I have ever seen in my entire life could make more sense. Doesn’t this bring tears of joy for you?

    How about if we fight unemployment by closing work places? Or fight alcoholism by giving free booze? How about to keep our houses warm during the winter if we turn off the heating and open the windows?

    George Orwell would be proud…

  26. hannu

    About minorities. How many blonds, brunettes, black haired, left handed, gays, lesbos, goths, big nosed, lactose intolerants, emos etc… are hired? Do they have their fair share?

  27. Tony Garcia

    Hannu I’m with you.

    Alongside age, gender, race and other aspects, when employing a person, the employer should be obligated to classify the female (of course) employees by the arse size. For that I’d suggest a 5 categories.

    Tiny, medium, OK, nice and “Wow baby, what a bum”.

    Far too long members of the “Wow baby, what a bum” group have been neglected, marginalized, excluded and discriminated, and that must stop.

    For that I’m now officially creating the “Wow baby, what a bum” rights group.

  28. Tony Garcia

    I have develop a quick test to measure your racist tendencies.

    If you have to travel from Helsinki to New York and you can choose between 2 planes, with one would be your choice?

    Plane 1, having a group of Japanese pensioners.

    Plane 2, having a group of Muslims mumbling to themselves and fidgeting with their suspiciously bulging shirts.

    Result:

    If you have chosen the first plane, you are a bastard racist, xenophobic, islamophobic, kafir who will burn in hell forever and ever.

    If it doesn’t matter, you are in the right path kemosabe, but you still need a lot of improvement.

    If you have chosen the second plane… welcome to the brotherhood…

  29. Tony Garcia

    “That is why it is a bit awkward for a white person living in a white country talking about racism.”

    Sorry but why do you do this then?

    … Finns trying to adapt them to their world through their values.”

    So, with one of our values shouldn’t be imposed to them? Gender equality? Freedom to marry whoever you want? Children protection against mutilation?

    “The great fear would be that very, very few minorities are being hired and are underrepresented in city jobs.”

    Yep, and we all know the reason for that – lack of skills.

    “So, in answer to your question that everything you say is racism and everything I say is the “truth” is wrong.”

    Although I do believe you are sincere when saying that, the amount of denial/explanation we have had in this blog just can’t be dismissed. And talking about passion, I’m very passionate about my country’s football team, however you won’t find me supporting them when they win a game with an invalid gol.

    • Enrique

      –Sorry but why do you do this then?

      How can you mock racism claims by blacks and Muslims if you are not one of them. And when it comes to racism, I have seen quite a lot of it in Finland during my 30-odd years in this country. I don´t, however, go speaking on behalf of groups and belittle and mock their claims.

  30. Tony Garcia

    And talking about racism, I have develop a quick test to measure your racist tendencies.

    If you have to travel from Helsinki to New York and you can choose between 2 planes, with one would be your choice?

    Plane 1, having a group of Japanese pensioners.

    Plane 2, having a group of Muslims mumbling to themselves and fidgeting with their suspiciously bulging shirts.

    Result:

    If you have chosen the first plane, you are a bastard racist, xenophobic, islamophobic, kafir who will burn in hell forever and ever.

    If it doesn’t matter, you are in the right path kemosabe, but you still need a lot of improvement.

    If you have chosen the second plane… welcome to the brotherhood…

    • Enrique

      –If you have chosen the second plane… welcome to the brotherhood…

      Did you ever ask yourself, Tony, what it feels to live in a society where some people make these types of jokes and place your groups under a dubious light? Or is your solution that they should go to a plastic surgeon and change the color of their skin and dye their hair? Should they go to a “cultural surgeon” and erase their culture and background? It don´t find anything humorous in this because its intention is outright malice.

  31. Tony Garcia

    “How can you mock racism claims by blacks and Muslims if you are not one of them.”

    So, I can’t be skeptical to their claims because I’m not one of them, fair enough, but you can support their claims because you are not one of them?

    Sorry, I’m confused…

    Anyway… by any change, do you use the word of these people to help forming your opinion?

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/01/decline_in_under-age_asylum_seekers_1343375.html

    ““It’s common for persons aged 19 to 20 years to pose as minors. Some are clearly older than that. In one case an individual posing as a 16 year old turned out to be 29 years old,” Mäntykenttä explained.“

    I would think twice before take the word that these people are giving under anonymity, especially because they have no problem with lying when talking on the record.

  32. Tony Garcia

    “…place your groups under a dubious light?”

    I do the joke alright, however place them under dubious light? Well, they don’t need help for that, they do it very well all by themselves.

    “Should they go to a “cultural surgeon” and erase their culture and background?”

    No, but they could get a lot fixed.

    “It don´t find anything humorous…”

    Well, you need a bit more sense of humor…

  33. hannu

    Now enrique how its only possible to see what “racism” means if “You would have to be black in a white country to know what it means.”
    I would like to tell you really good holiday place to observe real racism and xenophobia but you wouldnt come back alive, they arent white.

  34. Tiwaz

    -“Try factors such as hostility, exclusion, racism, discrimination just to name a few important ones.”

    And what is your excuse to fact that those are mostly imagination of immigrants?

    They imagine hostility, because they have not figured out how Finnish culture interacts.
    They imagine exclusion, when THEY refuse to adjust to required norms of society around them. Do NOT presume to be included if you refuse to fit into team.
    Racism, mostly made up inside heads of immigrants to give them easy escape from accepting responsibility for their own failure.
    Discrimination, same as racism.

    Finns have no issues with foreigners. But we have issues with people who want preferential treatment.

    SHOW that you want to fit in, LEARN the culture, SPEAK the language. If you foreigners refuse to do those fundamental things what excuse you have to complain of Finns?

    Huge majority of immigrant whining of bad treatment is their own doing. They refuse to fit in, they refuse to act properly, they refuse to speak properly. If they bothered to learn these things, they would be treated the same.

    Or how you tell that such fundamentally racist and xenophobic nation is home to Arman Alizad? Well off tailor of Iranian origin, born in Iran, moved with family to USA and then to Finland. Today also known for participation in quite a few TV-programs.

    His name reveals he is foreigner, his face reveals he is foreigner. Yet he is married to Finn, Emilia Järvinen being very Finnish name, runs successful business with Finns…

    What could be the reason why he has made it and others not?

    Oh yes! He speaks very fluent Finnish and knows the culture! Damn…

    See, if more immigrants instead of blaming someone else for their own failure would do like Arman, they would do quite well.

    Problem is, people like you support their thinking that they are not doing anything wrong, and society around them must change to appease them. It is idiotic standpoint which can never work. Immigrants have to change to fit nation they move into. They cannot expect to bring Somalia along with them. Or if they try, they become like Ibrahim who apparently wanted to bring Kosovo to Finland with him. With well known results.

    -“One essential way to begin to fix these problems is by the host society having a favorable – not hostile – attitude towards them. That is a very important starting point to fix the problems that may arise from immigration.”

    I see again that you place blame on society for not appeasing every different immigrant group instead of putting blame on immigrants who have to adjust to ONE set of norms, NATIVE ones.

    You do not see the irrationality of your train of thought?

    If Finland has to be Somalia for Somalians, India for Indians, Indonesia for Indonesians… How it can be Finland for Finns? Or how it can even be all those things at same time?

    It is impossible. Because of that, in functional society immigrants learn the ways of the land instead of expecting land to learn the ways of immigrants.

  35. Referee

    On a side note about Arman Alizad, he has said that he thinks foreigners who complain about Finland, Finnish women, Finnish culture, weather etc. should understand that they have the option to get out of this country. Arman’s religion is Baha’i. Not carrying the baggage of a certain religion explains pretty well his ability to integrate and not stick to 1400 year old standards.

    • Enrique

      Hi referee, so every time we run into a problem we should run and hide away from it. Not a good option in some cases.

  36. Tiwaz

    Sometimes you have to accept that problem cannot be solved.

    Immigrants demanding that they must be appeased at cost of Finnish society, culture and people are asking for impossible.

    Even if we Finns were spineless enough to go through with appeasement, we would just end up bouncing between varied whining minorities so nobody would still get what they want.

    Immigrant who refuses to learn to live in Finland properly should run and hide. Run to someplace where he CAN live according to local principles.

    Because trying to force your foreign ways upon us Finns will only end up badly for you. It is problem you cannot solve any other way than running away or changing yourself.

    • Enrique

      –Immigrants demanding that they must be appeased at cost of Finnish society, culture and people are asking for impossible.

      Who is asking for “appeasement” or any special favors. With your kind of attitude you are appeasing yourself and your dominance over others without giving them the time of day.

      And hey, Finnish society accepts diversity. It is in the laws of the land.

  37. Tiwaz

    -“Who is asking for “appeasement” or any special favors. With your kind of attitude you are appeasing yourself and your dominance over others without giving them the time of day.”

    You are demanding appeasement when you demand that I, native, should know your cultural norms and treat you according to them in MY homeland. Instead of YOU learning how to behave well according to MY cultural norms in MY homeland.

    As for time of day…
    If they do not know how to ask time of day in Finnish and politely, why should I give it to them?

    As for appeasing me. I am native Finn. I am NATIVE of this land. It is thoroughly saturated with MY culture, MY way of life.

    It is the way of the land. You foreigners, when demanding that we should follow YOUR cultural norms are demanding appeasement.

    Me and my kind only expect you foreigners to respect our way of life in our native land. Like you should demand in your native land.

    -#And hey, Finnish society accepts diversity. It is in the laws of the land.”

    But nowhere it says that we should treat you like royalty, nor does it say that when you act according to your idiotic foreign norms, we should treat you as if you behave properly.

    Yes, you have right to act like an idiot, in Finnish cultural context, but you do not have privilege of GETTING AWAY WITH IT.

    If you act like and ass, you get treated like an ass. That is something immigrants better learn fast.

  38. Enrique

    Henrik (DeTant Blomhat), after a month you return as if nothing happened. Let me refresh your memory:

    “Enrique, can you like, read, understand, or are you as I suppose had malnutrition as a child? Like you are retarded and then had education in America andd thus you are so stupid?”

  39. hannu

    Probably same as me, he wants to know.
    You repeat same claims and we shoot them down. When we shoot them down you put fingers in your ears and close your eyes and yell “discrimination there has to be diversity, finns are ones to blame!”

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