Don’t give racism a platform!

by , under All categories, Mark

I’m fed up. I’m fed up of certain commentators visiting us here on Migrant Tales to spread lies and personal insults and to disrespect other cultures. Those that ONLY have terrible things to say about specific peoples (as opposed to cultural criticism) really are practicing extremism. How could it be otherwise?

When we condemn totalitarianism, do we always imagine that the people subjected to it are happy with that? There will always be supporters of extremism, some that will win or benefit from the privileges that come from those political or social systems. But we should NEVER blame the people as a whole, the nation or the nationality. Otherwise, no country in the world would allow Brits, the French, the Germans, the Italians and the Spanish into their countries because of the atrocities these ‘nations’ have carried out in the past.

There are two commentators on here in the last week that have finally snapped my patience. It seems very clear to me that Allan and Göran [they only ever use their first names, so I am not identifying them] have allowed themselves to become radicalised. I do not say this lightly. I have studied radicalisation for over 20 years, both from psychological, political and religious perspectives. They have nothing good to say about Somalis, in particular, with Afghans and Iraqis also mentioned in the same vein from time to time.

The fact that Allan and others HAVE to say that we are Finland-haters in order to maintain their world-view and to resist having to take seriously our arguments tells a lot about the psychology of radicalisation. To maintain a war, there must be an enemy.

If your ‘enemy’ starts to look too human, then you must dehumanise them, you must destroy any semblence of respectability that they have. Call them liars, call them haters, even if they are preaching love and tolerance.

I’m sure Allan believes I hate Finland. What can I say to that? My kids are Finnish. It doesn’t get any more personal or hurtful to hear that kind of crap from Allan. But it isn’t just about my kids. I was only yesterday walking around the streets of my home town here in Finland thinking about how much I appreciate many of the things in Finland.

It’s not perfect and it has, to different degrees, much the same social problems and inequalities of British society, but there is still a sense of safety about Finland that perhaps we have lost in the UK. There is not, or has not been to a great extent, the kind of cynicism and social division in Finnish society that we have seen, either historically or in recent times, in parts of Britain. Yes, in Finland there are inequalities of income to an extent and even of cultural perspectives and education, but not anything that has led to ‘war on the streets’ in the way that it has in the UK at times in the last 50 years. I really hope that doesn’t happen here in Finland.

What I do know is that some of the problems in the UK in regards to race relations were made much worse by Far Right groups stirring up hatreds in much the same way that Allan and Göran and others attempt to do when attacking this blog in the comments. Sometimes the response to this ethnic agitation in the UK at least has been reasoned, other times, it is expressed as an equally blind anger and bitterness, probably not so different in kind to the hatred that Allan and Göran so obviously display towards certain immigrants. Who’s to blame then? When does the hating stop? That is always the problem when you start down that kind of road to war. And it is a road to war, make no bones about it.

People in Europe are banging the war drums, telling us that Christianity and Islam are fundamentally opposed in their values, regardless of the fact that Muslims have been living peacefully in Europe for hundreds of years. They are banging the war drums because people seek a better life here in Europe, and rather than give those that manage to get here, for whatever reason, the opportunity to succeed and contribute, the talk is only of the costs of adaptation –

seeing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I’ve had enough of Allan. The danger whenever you are ‘forced’ to engage with extremists is that you give them a platform. The words of hate have a way of getting inside, of manipulating our fears and our sense of what’s right. Who thinks crime is right? Who thinks rape is right? Who thinks oppressing women is right? Of course, if all it takes is to discover these things in our culture, then we are truly all guilty.

But ultimately, crime is a deed of the individual, and we have no business making it into an ethnic or cultural matter. Researchers are very clear in what factors are known to affect crime, in quite complex ways, and they are poverty, disempowerment, social anger, marginalisation, inequality, etc. It must always be recognised that people are free to be different, to choose a law-abiding life, regardless of their culture. The vast majority of people on this planet want peace and prosperity and the freedom to express themselves.

There is every reason to stand up for the rights and values of the West, but we would be making a huge mistake if we think that we have a monopoly on those rights, or that those in developing or conflict ridden countries have a monopoly on intolerance, inhumanity etc.

A multiethnic society requires a common bed of values which are understood and shared. If we take the guests in Finland and attempt to portray their values as always being negative, always being inferior, always being somehow in conflict with our own values, then there will be no peace. This is war-mongering. It is dangerous and it is absolutely unnecessary.

If you are concerned about these rights and values, then there is every possibility to study them, to understand them, and to be active in trying to protect and promote them.

But the way to arrive at peace and development is not to repeatedly and cold-bloodedly insult peoples. That, surely, is common sense! Not for some….

  1. eyeopener

    Dear MT.

    Let’s make it our policy NOT to answer to their insults. Keep the discussion between ourselves.

    Only adding oil (even very founded criticism) to the fire will keep the “slur and slash” tactics of these guys going on. I am sure they will react to this.

    I will not react to those.

    So simple as that.

    • Migrant Tales

      eyeopener, I totally agree. We have such a big following already that people look up to us as a blog that offers leadership on immigrant issues. That is our role.

  2. Foreigner

    You know what? I quite like the fact that people like Allan and Göran have chosen MT to make their views known: it gives me(and perhaps others here) the rare opportunity to see how the minds of such individuals work. Some of us have limited literacy in Finnish, so we can’t visit sites like Hommaforum to read the extent of hate towards certain immigrants here.These 2 resident radicals therefore give us further insight into how certain groups in Finland think.Their comments are very enlightening to me.

    Sure ,they can be a bit less offensive in their comments, but ultimately, they are providing us with some valuable information.When you know what the “enemy” thinks, it makes you more prepared to handle their attacks.Maybe we can’t change the views Allan and Göran have towards us immigrants, but we can always use the info they provide to help dispel the myths which others like them hold towards us immigrants.

    Guess what I am saying is that I value their opinions, which is a bit strange, if you take into account that I am a black immigrant myself!

  3. D4R

    Excellent manifesto Mark. The people who usually come here and keep on attacking immigrants are usualy retards, the same people who’re in Finnish blogs who keep spreading myths and lies about certain immigrants, they have a agenda behind their attack,who’re the target? a small harmless minority who’re already struggle with their lifes, the result is a depressed immigrants who’re confused about the attention they’re receiving.

  4. D4R

    Foreigner: You know what? I quite like the fact that people like Allan and Göran have chosen MT to make their views known: it gives me(and perhaps others here) the rare opportunity to see how the minds of such individuals work. Some of us have limited literacy in Finnish, so we can’t visit sites like Hommaforum to read the extent of hate towards certain immigrants here.These 2 resident radicals therefore give us further insight into how certain groups in Finland think.Their comments are very enlightening to me.

    Sure ,they can be a bit less offensive in their comments, but ultimately, they are providing us with some valuable information.When you know what the “enemy” thinks, it makes you more prepared to handle their attacks.Maybe we can’t change the views Allan and Göran have towards us immigrants, but we can always use the info they provide to help dispel the myths which others like them hold towards us immigrants.

    Guess what I am saying is that I value their opinions, which is a bit strange, if you take into account that I am a black immigrant myself!

    I liked this text, i agree with you, actually it was a really wise to give them a time to express their self and hang their self with their own stupidity, i feel like they step on their own trap, now everyone can see how narrow minded they’re, they can’t even think rationally or properly, they’re blinded by hatered.

  5. eyeopener

    Our task is to become a sound board for foreigeners in Finland. Not a discussion platform with racists, sexists etc.

    The development of OUR platform is to encourage, enable and promote the voice of the foreigner in Finland. Letting Finland know what we are, why we are here and what we do for Finnish society.

    Don’t react the “slur and slash”. Keep the discussion amongst ourselves

  6. Mark

    I think that ‘showcasing’ prejudice and bigotry is one thing, but letting them repeat mantras like ‘you hate Finland’ and ‘Somalis are criminals’ with no effort whatsoever to debate are things we should not tolerate. We just need to sort out our community standards, as JD has pointed out before, and then that is something that will keep the debate just about civilised enough that it won’t drive me bonkers in the meantime. 😀

  7. Mark

    Foreigner

    I’m glad that the debate benefits you. It benefits me too, in lots of ways, and I don’t assume that every skeptic or critic is mean-spirited. But when faced with the repeated spitefulness and ill-will of some, I real have to draw the line somewhere.

    How about a list of don’t s ?

    We could start with:

    You hate Finland
    Somalis are rapists and criminal (this is about as racist as it gets and is frankly degrading to Somalis reading this blog – I don’t see why we should tolerate it).

    Is there a reason to allow these things to be repeated mantra-style from comment to comment, day in day out? As part of debate is one thing, but not like Allan has been doing.

  8. Love4Finland

    Ha, who are you to talk? You post offensive stories daily insulting Finns and Finland, and evidently do not know anything about the country nor understand its people let alone the language. Still, without trying to understand nor appreciate the country, my country, you denigrate Finland – out of love for the country?

    You deny the truth – you do not admit that there are any problems, on the contrary you claim immigrants are all innocent and the crime statistics lie. You stand on a high horse and demand the natives change instead of looking in the mirror first. If you are presented the exact same accusations you are saying about Finns, you get upset. You get even more upset when facts are pointed out. The most you get upset is when you are called what you are for continuing to repeat lies.

    You concentrate on peoples skin color – and then call others racists? You repeat mantra-like racism racism racism. And you find racism in every single thing. It is beyond pathetic.

    I love Finland. I love it how it is. Other people love Finland for what it is. You do not love Finland – you want to change it to something else, a multicultural perversity. To make it somehow understandable why you wish to do this, you misrepresent the country as something it is not. You fabricate all kinds of insane stories always emphasising racsim, racsim that does not exist in a story, but it is always added. This fuels the paranoia and misunderstanding of other immigrants, that believe your fabrications because they can not understand the language or the people.

    You are welcome to debate these things with yourselves, just make sure this blog is invisible to any outsiders, as it is and offensive misrepresentation of a beautiful and good country you have no right to slander. Mark my words, the truth will out.

    • Migrant Tales

      Love4Finland, how do you know what I know? You don’t even know me and you are judging me and others on Migrant Tales.

      You state at the end that the “truth will (come) out.”

      I agree: It is coming out all the time.

  9. eyeopener

    Hi Mark. The right words you spoke. We develop out own mantras of understanding but also critical thinking.

    We foreigners deserve a place in Finland irrespective the criteria that allow for stereaotyping, discrimination, insults etc.

    The “silent majority” of Finland must be informed, awakened and made a partner in our cause. The “aloud minority” is Finland is arising. Let’s continue uour dialogue and prevent a new platform of racism.

    Don’t react to “slur and slash”. Not always simple but we hold our dignity high!!

  10. Yossie

    I dont know if people are already decided to ignore me as a dissident but I feel I should speak my mind out in this one:

    First of all, for people in this blog, racism never ends. For you, it will always excist. No matter what finns do, it wont be enough. Seeing as Enrique thinks blue eyed, blond girl in dating ad is racism, I cant see people with that attitude to ever stop thinking racism doesnt excist. If you cant find racism, there is always decades old tabloids you can bring up to prove your point.

    Its quite obvious what people in this blog want. You talk about multiethnic societies and what is needed for that. That is your goal it seems. However, these multiethnic societies always happen to be western countries. There is no multiculturalism experiments in muslim countries or anywhere else. If muslims dont like Finland, they can go to their fully muslim countries. When you want to make Finland your pinnacle of multiculturalism, there is not a same kind of escape for us.

    Europe is defenately not like it was 50 years ago. Number of muslims are continuously increasing. In muslim countries, there isnt samekind of movement of christians/atheists. In essence, it feels our space is getting smaller.

    But why is that bad then? Well.. when I look at the muslim countries, I´m not really impressed. Consider me slurring them if you want, but you really think muslim countries share our values? In eqypt people were voting for either islamists or extreme islamists. They made their own declaration for human rights instead of accepting the western one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

    Mark, you say you love Finland, well.. So do I and I prefer to keep it like it is. Having muslims moving here and bringing in their values. I consider it to be a threat to our way of life. I understand UK already has sharia courts, “voluntery” for now, who knows what in future when muslims get more power. Consider this “banging the war drums” if you want, but there is no way going back if your multiculturalism social experimens fails.

    Some might laugh at me, but I´m concerned and I´m not a only one.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Seeing as Enrique thinks blue eyed, blond girl in dating ad is racism, I cant see people with that attitude to ever stop thinking racism doesnt excist.

      Yossie, we all come from different backgrounds but live in the same country today. Our experiences are different. I had the opportunity to grow up in the United States during the 1960s, a time when the credibility of the “establishment” as it was called back then was being questioned. One of the matters I saw a lot in the U.S. was racism but I saw as well a society that had done a lot to overcome such a social ill through the Civil Rights Movement. In the following decade, in the 1970s, the U.S. was a different country concerning blacks and whites. This was the case in Los Angeles but not in all parts of the United States.

      If there is a valuable lesson I learned from those times it is that racism must be treated seriously. Despite the long and winding history of the blacks in the U.S., starting from the Civil War when Abraham Lincoln’s famous speech, the Emancipation Proclamation, social exclusion and racism were the rule not the exception. People started to rise against segregation in a bigger way in the 1950s because blacks had notable leaders like Martin Luther King Jr. Possibly during those 92 years after Lincoln’s famous speech and when Rosa Parks got arrested in 1955 on a bus for not relinquishing her seat nobody took racism so seriously that it would be challenged.

      I learned from living during those very difficult times that you should never underestimate racism. If you do you are doomed to keep the very structures that make it possible in your society.

  11. Foreigner

    Mark, I am in no way defending these 2 individuals. I too am a bit tired of them constantly labelling immigrants as rapists, welfare shoppers etc.They’ve already beaten that drum into oblivion,and need to come with something new.

    Yossie you harp on and on about Muslims taking over western societies. May I inform you that this is exactly what Europeans have done throughout the centuries. In my part of the world, Europeans wiped out the entire native population with their infectuous diseases. As if that was not enough, they then brought us from Africa to work as slaves on their plantations.Talk about a travesty of epic proportions!!! Before you talk about European societies being invaded, and the European way of life being under threat, take a good look at Europe’s own history of colonization!

    I do not believe that any one group has the right to impose their way of thinking or living on another group; Europeans have no right to impose their way of life on other societies, and non western societies have no right to impose their way of life on other societies.If we just accept each other for who we are, then the world would be a more peaceful place.

    ONE LOVE !!!

  12. D4R

    M.T: Love4Finland, how do you know what I know? You don’t even know me and you are judging me and others on Migrant Tales.

    You state at the end that the “truth will (come) out.”

    I agree: It is coming out all the time.

    Lol, i liked this one, especially the paryt ” i agree: it’s coming out all the time” 🙂

  13. Mark

    Love4Finland

    Ha, who are you to talk?

    Yeah, somebody shut that bloody foreigner up!

    You post offensive stories daily insulting Finns and Finland

    If you choose to take offense or to consider these stories as insulting Finns, then all I can say is ‘get a grip’. This is ‘mild’ social criticism, not aimed at ALL Finns and certainly not aimed at ‘insulting’ Finns. What kind of emotional wreck are you if you cannot discuss racism and prejudice in Finland? Are they really still that much taboo subjects?

    and evidently do not know anything about the country nor understand its people let alone the language. Still, without trying to understand nor appreciate the country, my country, you denigrate Finland – out of love for the country?

    Wow, you got it all figured out, haven’t you! Except you know nothing about me except that I condemn racism in Finland and call for tolerance and respect between cultures. I guess that’s enough to upset you, eh! For your information, I do speak Finnish, though not like a native. I have lived here nigh on ten years, I am married to Finn, I have met thousands of Finns. And my work is all about Finland and what is going on here. So go ahead, tell me I know nothing.

    you deny the truth – you do not admit that there are any problems, on the contrary you claim immigrants are all innocent and the crime statistics lie.

    Rubbish. Here you go: there are problems with immigration, there are problems with immigrants adapting to life in Finland, there are immigrants who commit crime and fraud, there are immigrants who are racist, there are immigrants who only want to be with their own kind. There you go. See, I do not deny ‘the truth’ if that is what you mean. But let me tell you this, this is nowhere near being the truth if you do not also say that there are immigrants that thrive in Finland, that love Finns, that work hard, that study hard, that never commit a crime, that strive to be with Finns, that are not racist, that are happy to share in Finnish culture, while maintaining something of their own traditions too. See, that’s what ‘truth’ is; it’s starts with balance and perspective. It is not an exercise in extreme cultural pessimism and cultural superiority.

    You stand on a high horse and demand the natives change instead of looking in the mirror first.

    More fucking rubbish. Only yesterday I was writing about my involvement in a programme to educate refugees about health systems, and how my charity also educated health professionals about refugees. Two-way street, meeting somewhere in the middle.

    If you are presented the exact same accusations you are saying about Finns, you get upset.

    I see, so if I call someone a racist, because, well, they are saying racist things, then you assume that because this person is a Finn, I must be saying it about ALL Finns, and also that this then gives you the right to call me a racist (because it’s the exact same accusation), and to complain when I’m not happy about that or reject it?

    You get even more upset when facts are pointed out. The most you get upset is when you are called what you are for continuing to repeat lies.

    You mean I get upset when people continually try to racially profile particular groups, on the weakest of evidence? You’re damn right I do!

    You concentrate on peoples skin color – and then call others racists?

    Oh go back to school you ignoramus….talking about skin colour doesn’t make you a racist – deciding that skin colour automatically tells you something about a person’s character or intelligence is racist.

    You repeat mantra-like racism racism racism. And you find racism in every single thing. It is beyond pathetic.

    Rubbish. You know, I don’t have to go looking for racism in Finland, it arrives on this blog every day, telling me I’m a racist because I stand up and condemn racism in Finland. Now how bizarre is that?!

    I love Finland. I love it how it is. Other people love Finland for what it is. You do not love Finland – you want to change it to something else, a multicultural perversity.

    Okay, so either you are an Allan clone or you are Allan, coming via another user name. My guess is that you are Allan. Who the hell are you to tell me what I feel? Do you do that to other people – go up to them and TELL them how THEY feel about something? But you are nevertheless happy to tell me that ‘YOU DO NOT LOVE FINLAND!’. That’s pathetic!

    Let me tell you something. Finland has 183,132 foreigners living here and there are a great many more Finns that have links through family to people living in other countries. Finns travel the world and are interested in the world, and are not so insecure as your little puppy arse that they feel that every person on the planet that decides to visit Finland for a time or who comes to live here has to suddenly pretend they are something other than what they are, in case those poor Finns like yourself come out in a rash.

    You fabricate all kinds of insane stories always emphasising racsim, racsim that does not exist in a story, but it is always added.

    Yep, cos racism doesn’t exist in Finland……yawn!!!! Heard it all before.

    This fuels the paranoia and misunderstanding of other immigrants, that believe your fabrications because they can not understand the language or the people.

    Oh, really it’s all our fault now!!! It’s them bloody foreigners spreading lies!!!! You know, I have lived in Finland nearly ten years and talked with an awful awful lot of Finns. Thousands. I’ve talked about all sorts of subjects, including attitudes to foreigners in general. I never thought to write about it or to campaign against it, but I did observe it and I did comment to people on a one-to-one basis about things. However, since PS were elected, and I started to see how the political debate was shaping up and how the narratives about foreigners were developing, it was like watching the British National Party setting up shop in Bulevardi! And I haven’t written a word yet on this blog. Just watched, noticed and asked people their opinions. Well, now I’m writing about it. I’m writing about racism, about populism, nationalism and fascism, because I think a great many people in Finland, like yourself, are extremely naive about it, or maybe, like the studies show, 78% of Finns think themselves to be a little bit racist and are happy to be that way. If that’s the way Finns want to be, then fine. The bit that gets my gall is when they start saying, ‘no, it isn’t racism because we don’t like certain dark-skinned and Islamic nationalities, it’s all their fault, because look, look at the crime, look at the extremism, look at the female genital mutilation etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Then I start to think that something needs to be said.

    You are welcome to debate these things with yourselves, just make sure this blog is invisible to any outsiders, as it is and offensive misrepresentation of a beautiful and good country you have no right to slander. Mark my words, the truth will out.

    Grow up. Finland is a healthy democracy that can handle a half a dozen immigrants talking about discrimination in Finland or experiences of being a foreigner in Finland. Finland isn’t going to fall apart. People can make their own minds up. They can check out Amnesty International and what they have to say about racism in Finland. Feck, they can even check out what the former Finnish President has to say about racism in Finland. They can hear exactly the same things coming from many concerned and respected Finns! They don’t have listen to us foreigners!

  14. Yossie

    Foreigner

    Yes foreigner, bad in both ways. I have never accepted colonization either. Luckily your Enrique knows a good medicine for those bad times. Just forgive and forget. Thats what he tells us to do with our russian relations.

    I no way want impose my ways on other. If people dubai want to jail people for kissing in public places, please do so. But dont bring that way to my country! I use my freedom of not going to such places that employ such practices.

  15. Yossie

    Enrique

    But you cant go to another extreme of thinking everything is racism. It weakens your case when people start to think your like Don Quixote.

    • Migrant Tales

      –It weakens your case when people start to think your like Don Quixote.

      Yes, Yossie, we have so many examples of that: Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Nelson Mandela, Rosa Parks, and many, many others. Your language is the one that attempted to destroy these people with hopelessness. Like us, like culture, like societies… they all are in constant change. New ideas are adopted to make societies stronger. Racism, social exclusion and prejudice are ills that weaken society. It’s like having despotic rulers governing over the population. They do what they please and don’t play by any laws, like racism.

  16. Mark

    Yep, love4Finland is Allan, with a new stage name!!

    Well, that explains the same old mantra. Are you being paid for this Allan!?

  17. Laputis

    Foreigner:

    “Yossie you harp on and on about Muslims taking over western societies. May I inform you that this is exactly what Europeans have done throughout the centuries. In my part of the world, Europeans wiped out the entire native population with their infectuous diseases. As if that was not enough, they then brought us from Africa to work as slaves on their plantations.Talk about a travesty of epic proportions!!! Before you talk about European societies being invaded, and the European way of life being under threat, take a good look at Europe’s own history of colonization!”

    I don´t understand this putting of Finland in same bag with Spain, Great Britain or France.
    Finland, as a country, started to exist only from beginning of 20th century. And it has NEVER occupied or conquered other lands, it was always other way round – other countries, such as Russia or Sweden owned Finland. It´s MORONIC to say that Finns wiped entire native popuolation with infectious diseases, or brought African slaves…In fact, slavery didn´t exist in Finland for many, many centuries (unlike neighbour Russia or Estonia).
    Now you want to attribute to Finns the Spanish, Brittish or French guilt…Duh, don´t you understand that Finns are something entirely else than them????? Not only Finns haven´t ever occupied, conquered or enslaved other people. They also speak entirely different, non-related language, they stem from different branch of Europeans etc. etc.
    You can´t attribue to Finns the “white guilt”, period!
    Finland hasn´t been occupying other lands, wiping out natives, imposing their way of life to others etc., so it´s simply unfair to say that Finland “deserves” to get f.e. Muslim immigrants of Middle Eastern or Northern African descent.

  18. D4R

    Yossie: I dont know if people are already decided to ignore me as a dissident but I feel I should speak my mind out in this one:

    First of all, for people in this blog, racism never ends. For you, it will always excist. No matter what finns do, it wont be enough. Seeing as Enrique thinks blue eyed, blond girl in dating ad is racism, I cant see people with that attitude to ever stop thinking racism doesnt excist. If you cant find racism, there is always decades old tabloids you can bring up to prove your point.

    Its quite obvious what people in this blog want. You talk about multiethnic societies and what is needed for that. That is your goal it seems. However, these multiethnic societies always happen to be western countries. There is no multiculturalism experiments in muslim countries or anywhere else. If muslims dont like Finland, they can go to their fully muslim countries. When you want to make Finland your pinnacle of multiculturalism, there is not a same kind of escape for us.

    Europe is defenately not like it was 50 years ago. Number of muslims are continuously increasing. In muslim countries, there isnt samekind of movement of christians/atheists. In essence, it feels our space is getting smaller.

    But why is that bad then? Well.. when I look at the muslim countries, I´m not really impressed. Consider me slurring them if you want, but you really think muslim countries share our values? In eqypt people were voting for either islamists or extreme islamists. They made their own declaration for human rights instead of accepting the western one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

    Mark, you say you love Finland, well.. So do I and I prefer to keep it like it is. Having muslims moving here and bringing in their values. I consider it to be a threat to our way of life. I understand UK already has sharia courts, “voluntery” for now, who knows what in future when muslims get more power. Consider this “banging the war drums” if you want, but there is no way going back if your multiculturalism social experimens fails.

    Some might laugh at me, but I´m concerned and I´m not a only one.

    I’m sorry to tell you this but what you’re accusing of Mark is really you, Mark is just condeming racism, but in some odd rreason that got you upset don’t know why, then you start retaliated and attacked him of being a racist? a racist to who? he is just condeming racism in thread, nodays racists are funny, they have found a strategy to use when thet’re blamed of their ill act racism, so whenever they’re shown their racism, they start to accuse people of being racism to them, so to them racism is when they’re accusd of racism, funny.

  19. D4R

    Yossie: Enrique

    But you cant go to another extreme of thinking everything is racism. It weakens your case when people start to think your like Don Quixote.

    Yossie, we don’t need to search for racism if it exists of not, following this thread is a good example that racism is alive and kicking in Finland, the reason you’re upset about us discussing this topic tells me that you don’t like people to even mention racism, why is that? can’t we discuss about a crime if there happens a crime?

  20. Foreigner

    Did I ever, at any point, claim that Finland specifically was engaged in colonization or the slave trade? No! Yossie’s rant pitted “muslim countries ” against “Europe”, so I simply reminded him of Europe’s own history of cultural invasion. I too, am very much aware of Finland’s history with Russia and Sweden.

    Since I never directly accused Finland of colonizing other nations, your claim that I am attempting to lay the “white guilt” on Finns is thus null and void! In fact, I am very much offended by your use of that term. Slavery was something which happened in the past, and people from my part of the world have since moved on , and do not use it as an excuse for our failures and shortcomings! Truth be told, we use our past history in slavery as motivation to push ourselves forward, and do the best that we can do. We do not use it to solicit guilt and pity from others!

    If you care to avail yourself to such information, repeated studies in the USA have noted very positive attitudes among people from my part of the world.Such studies have also shown that people from my region are less inclined to use slavery as an excuse than their counterparts who went through the same slavery experience.Bottom line is that ,contrary to what you may think,people from my region do not sit on their laurels and blame slavery for everything which goes wrong in their lives!!!

    In the USA, we are known to be high achievers and hard workers. A recent study found that women from my region in the USA outperformed American women (both black and white), and all other immigrant women(white Europeans included) in terms of employment. Use this as further proof that we do not sit back on our laurels and lay the “white guilt” on you whites. Just like everyone else,we black people strive very hard for what we want in life!

  21. Laputis

    Foreigner, your fault is that you talk about “Europe” as if it were some kind of united region. But no, it´s not united.
    Yossie was talking more specifically about Finland as part of “Europe”. Yes, Finland is in Europe. But all Europe is not Finland.
    This is where Yossie got right and you got wrong.
    Of course, we can blame Yossie for using term “muslim countries”, which in reality is vague term.

    And BTW I am not white person. I am from Asia.

  22. Yossie

    D4R

    Its funny that I never said Mark was being racist. Yet you have decide to make all the conclusions yourself.

    Secondly, talk about racism if you wish, but I become upset when you jump on the gun and claim racism where there is none. Picking up weird tabloids, dating ads. All the people Enrique lists here fough against real racism: Apartheid, racial segregation. Comparing to Finland for those times is ridiculous.

  23. Yossie

    Enrique

    “New ideas are adopted to make societies stronger”

    I suppose the problem lies there that I dont think ideas from muslim countries are gonna make us stronger. Also those ideas are not that much of being adopted than being forced on us by them moving in here, rather than native population thinking its a nice idea to adopt.

    • Migrant Tales

      The point, Yossie, is the following: If you have a society that promotes mutual acceptance, respect, inclusion and social equality for all, that rubs off on everyone. Society benefits. Look at your affirmation about Muslims and ask yourself if that’s really true. That what you said is typical of the far-right campaign against immigrants. Only people like James Hirvisaari, Jussi Halla-aho and his not-so-merry band speak that way. Hirvisaari got fined for hate speech and Halla-aho for defamation of religion. Both are not your ideal-citizen types by far.

  24. Mary Mekko

    Enrique, I believe you were a child in the 1960’s, not an adult who could really understand the racial tension issues. Tell us more about your contact with blacks in the 1960’s – were they in your street, park, school or public bus, did you have real daily contact, or only watch it on TV? Tell us more about your involvement with racial tensions – were you a victim or a perp? Were you reminded often of your Jewish roots by nonJews? Did other kids consider you a foreigner, coming from Argentina and Italy, not to mention of Russian Finnish Jewish descent? What kind of school did you attend there in Southern California? If you had no personal contact, I doubt you could understand how things were when the schools were integrated. So easy to look at newsreels and make judgments, say that you “understand”…. The victims are the ones who should testify, those who suffered the anger of the blacks against the whites in big cities.

    Rosa Parks was a Communist hired to do the bus trick after a black pregnant single-mother teenage girl was not given a seat on a crowded bus one day. The Communist organization realized that denying her a seat was truly cruel, but using an unmarried black teen as a posterchild would be folly, so they asked Rosa Parks, a very literate mulatto belonging to their SLNC to do the same thing, to kick off the bus strike. You can look these things up on the Internet, see her in training sessions with MLKjr at the SLNC. If you think she spontaneously just sat down one day because of her tired feet, boy are you a sucker!

    Incidentally, I had a Nigerian-born psychiatrist on my Napa tour yesterday, one Evaristo Olanrewaju Akerele of Lagos. A great fellow, he entertained us at lunch with stories of his drug-addiction fighting in NYC. I asked him about his education in Lagos, and sure enough, he had had Irish priests at St. Gregory’s, a prestigious school there, started laughing at the ones who’d run off to marry a native, or went native into the bush, etc. etc. If my Irish mother had been there, she would have socked him for his disrespect to the teachers who had left Ireland to teach these boys. I let it slide. Laughing at white priests gone astray is quite alright, especially for a black.Whites cannot protest insults..eh?

    Later, I asked him if he knew about the African shop in San Francisco, where he could meet a lot of other Nigerians. I told him he’d enjoy it, that they were a lively bunch, with music and chat and jokes every Friday night, lots of drinking and marijuana too, always a blast.

    He took great offense that he would be associated with “other Nigernians” who had a drink or a smoke, and called my boss to complain about me the next day!!!!

    Even my boss had to laugh at the irony of this. But then, he’s a psych doc, so maybe his own brain is all twisted, too, don’t rule out that even blacks can be just plain looney, not just malicious.

    He didn’t really like that I knew a lot about his country, since my parents had relatives who’d worked there as missionaries. The real story is not always a pretty one, but he’s banking on our ignorance. We’re supposed to think that there’s no trouble over there?

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