Denying racism is rejecting Finland’s cultural diversity

by , under All categories, Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

When one looks at some topical issues being debated in Finland, like the role of cultural diversity and tries to understand them, it is essential to dig deeper behind words. What do the most anti-immigration voices of the Perussuomalaiset (PS) say when they are against multiculturalism?

Anyone who has attempted to understand what multiculturalism is knows that it isn’t an easy concept to grasp. If we are speaking of the Canadian social policy that came about in the 1980s, there are only three countries in the world (Canada, Britain and Australia) that are officially multicultural, according to researcher Peter Kivisto.

Multiculturalism as a social policy works differently in all three of the above-mentioned countries. There is no same-size-fits-all when it comes to multiculturalism as a social policy.

What do anti-immigration groups like the PS tell us when they express their loathing for multiculturalism? Is it a last-ditch attempt to keep Finland white and hinder the development or, worse, deny our cultural diversity as a society?

What do anti-immigration groups like Suomen Sisu and PS MP Jussi Halla-aho reveal to us when state that they are against multiculturalism and find some basis for their arguments in the writings of  Alfred Rosenberg, David Duke and Michael Levin?

All of these persons have one matter in common: they are against cultural diversity, or are the antithesis of multiculturalism. Rosenberg, a Nazi war criminal who went to the gallows after the Nuremberg trials, believed that the ”Aryan race” would find greatness after it kicked out the Jews from Germany.

David Duke is a former Klu Klux Klan leader who believes whites should live separated from blacks. Levin is another controversial figure who sees whites at the top and blacks at the bottom of the ethnic totem pole.

When anti-immigration representatives in Finland tell us that they are only against certain groups moving to this country, they are stating us the same thing: we loathe people who strengthen cultural diversity.

The present debate taking place in Finland goes much deeper than what meets the eye because it is about the inevitable future of our society. One group, like some in the PS, are denying it by living in a Finland of the past century, while others have already accepted it.

What, then, is a person telling us when he claims there is no racism in Finland?

It’s the same side of the sinister coin: denial that Finland is already culturally diverse.

  1. Mark

    Some anti-immigrationists genuinely believe that Islamic cultures in particular cannot integrate with ‘Western’ culture because for example, they may ask for different treatment of women (such as segragated teaching, physical activity etc.), they may ask for their own legal system which is in accordance with Muslim ethical codes (Sharia), or they may discourage intermarriage or even strong mixing of cultures, especially through 2nd generation children adopting host country values and habits.

    While these questions bring new issues politically and culturally for Finns to discuss and consider, they do not in themselves constitute a failure of multiculturism. Multiculturism is the idea that there needs to be some compromise, that there are distinct ethnic strands in society and that efforts should be made to respect and preserve the cultural identities of minorities. This is very distinct from ideas of assimilation, where the ethnic identity is typically seen as ‘inferior’ and therefore cannot be tolerated in the host society in any way.

    It is not true to say that all Muslims are looking for Sharia law or even special treatment for Muslim girls in the education system. Some Muslim scholars are happy to say that one must respect the laws of the host country. Indeed, several of the 500+ immigration groups in Finland are women-only, serving to develop and claim the rights of immigrant women in spite of different values and rights in their country of origin.

    In other words, it’s simply unhelpful to see the issue of multiculturism as a single dichotomous issue – our culture vs their culture.

    Some anti-multiculturists go to great extremes to defame Islamic or other cultures, holding up headlines where a Muslim has committed some terrible crime, as if headlines of Finns committing horrible crimes were completely absent. The question is ‘when does ethnicity or religion’ become a defining issue? For issues of individual crime, there are very few crimes that can really be related to ethnicity, such as honour killings. It’s important to remember though that many within Muslim cultures also abhor honour killings. Likewise, it is also important to remember that ‘revenge killing’ is not a concept completely unknown to the West either, even if we don’t call it ‘honour’.

    It’s putting things in a proper and sensible perspective, and that is perhaps the biggest failing of most criticisms of multiculturism. There are many interest groups in Finnish society looking for ‘special treatment’ or even changes in the law or codes of conduct to favour their gorup’s interests. It is for authorities to weigh up the needs of citizens against the needs of other citizens and decide what compromises can be made in meeting the requests of these interest groups. To pick out Muslim interest groups and attack them for looking after the interests of their members is, frankly, utterly hypocritical. Are we to criticise the Finnish Deaf Association for demanding more rights and accommodations for deaf people?

    We should accept that political advocacy by minorities in Finland is perfectly legitimate. If we wish to make a political case against that advocacy, that is perfectly normal too. What isn’t normal is saying that they are not ‘integrated’ because they call for changes in some aspects of Finnish society to accommodate their needs. Indeed, it is worth remembering that many of the groups calling for more rights for Muslims are also the groups that have worked hardest to integrate Muslims into the wider Finnish society. It is not about immigrants wanting to set up enclaves. It is about immigrants wanting to protect their identities. Often, people don’t even know they have an ethnicity until they move to another country and people in that country point it out to them.

    No doubt, multiculturism brings many questions and challenges, as does economic development, growing older, the information society, the ageing population, diversifications of industry, economic fluctuations and so on and so on. At what point do we start to see multiculturism as something that must be either working perfect or not at all? Like many of the issues that face society, problems need to be solved while at the same time recognising the benefits of change.

    Pluralistic societies is the way of now and even more so the way of the future – and very few people would disagree with that. Anti-multiculturism is the worst kind of conservatism – it’s trying to protect an idealised view of something and deny what is an inevitable change.

    • Enrique

      Mark, if I may add all anti-Islam parties make the same claim about those groups they have declared war on: you are so different from us (sic) that you cannot live with us. This then allows that person to embark on a crusade where hatred and racism is justified.

  2. Seppo

    Some very good points, Mark.

    Indeed, anti-multiculturism is essentially conservatism – one does not want things to change.

    However, I believe that conservatism is completely legitimate. Even though I’m not conservative myself, I believe that some people have the right to be. It is one cultural-political movement among others. There have always been conservative people and always will be. That’s what most of Persut are essentially – conservative, even extremly conservative.

    What I don’t totally agree with is comments like “pluralistic societies is the way of now and even more so the way of the future” or “trying to protect an idealised view of something and deny what is an inevitable change”. This is no law of nature – it is a choice.

    The change is not completely inevitable. If we want to, we can stop taking immigrants. Or maybe not really but we can signifacantly lower the number of immigrants coming to Finland. Without breaking any international agreements or laws we could have more assimilionist policies towards the immigrants. Remember that Finland is actually doing quite well in encouraging immigrants to value their culture and language, we have teaching in immigrant languages at schools etc, things that many other countries with higher number of immigrants don’t have.

    What I’m trying to say is that multiculturism and a pluralistic society is a political choice, a choice we make or not. In a way the choice has already been made, now it’s more like wether we go further and deeper into multiculturism, or if we somehow try to stay where we are or even turn the tide and go for less multicultural society. There are supporters for all options.

    I strongly support the right of minority communities to preserve and develop their culture and language. But I do want to see in the future a united Finnish society, and not a society that is split into fractions along ethnocultural lines. That is why I would rather have it so that there is one big, tolerant, multifaceted and inclusive Finnish culture which includes subcultures such as Finnish-Swedish, Finnish-Russian or Finnish-Somali cultures.

    Instead of having many separate cultures, I would rather have one large Finnish culture which is just more varied, tolerant and inclusive than it is today.

  3. Seppo

    What I would like to see in the future is something that the Swedishspeaking Finns represent now. Their national identity is Finnish but alongside that they have the cultural-linguistic identity as Swedishspeakers. The same way in the future we can have Russianspeaking Finns, Englishspeaking Finns, Somalispeaking Finns and so on. Everyone would feel at home in this country, they would feel Finnish, but at the same time they could preserve and develop their own culture, language and identity.

  4. Mark

    Seppo

    Thanks for your comments. And good to see some well-thought-out criticism of my comments too.

    I think you are right to acknowledge that conversvatism is also a political choice. I think by that you mean it’s not necessarily a racist choice, though clearly it would be an ‘anti-immigration’ choice.

    I agree, up to a point. I know conservatives who say they are not anti-immigrant, just anti-immigration. The problem is that many of the arguments used against immigration make them seem also very anti-immigrant.

    If people at some point decide that Finland has enough immigrants, then the reasons for doing so may impact very negatively on those immigrants that are already here. There is a very real danger that that will happen.

    I’m glad you mentioned the swedish speaking elements of Finnish society, because it shows that Finnish society is pluralistic already. Likewise, the large repatriation of Russians with ‘Finnish’ origins is likewise another strand of Finland’s existing pluralism.

    The same is true also of the UK, which has been influenced heavily by immigration of Scandanavian peoples and also French and continental people’s. Our language is indeed a mixture of Saxon, French and Scandanavian, in that order of proportions. But neighbours have oft times been enemies also. Pluralism was never straightforward. So why would it be even with cultures from afar? One might be forgiven for thinking it easier – no past history of war. But not so, sadly. For the most part, rivalries are harmless.

    I like your tolerance and inclusiveness and I like your call to respect even conservatives. It’s commendable. I think seeking to preserve one’s culture is quite noble, and indeed, many immigrants are trying to do just that, so why would we think it so wrong of the Finns?

    Where i would draw the line though is in presenting it as a war. It’s not a war. At least, it hasn’t been, until PS started their compaigning. Whether it becomes one depends a lot on our attitude and how we have this debate about immigration. The more it is racism that underlies this discussion, the more I see this pushing towards being presented as a ‘clash of cultures’. That’s it in a nutshell for me.

  5. Mark

    Enrique

    – “anti-Islam parties make the same claim about those groups they have declared war on: you are so different from us (sic) that you cannot live with us. This then allows that person to embark on a crusade where hatred and racism is justified.

    And to make matters worse, they reject that it’s hatred and racism that feeds their war. But then again, I never met anyone who was fighting a war admit that their cause was fed by such base emotions; not until much later after the war has ended, and time has made the lie just too tiresome to live with.

    Not a single anti-immigration argument I have ever read has ever stood up to real critical thought. Even the economic argument, which is the most difficult, is undermined at its very foundations by the fact that there are far greater economic problems generated by native Finns who will not or cannot find work for whatever reason, sometimes simply because jobs aren’t available. And if people are motivated purely by the numbers and costs, then why on earth don’t they go after Finns. They say they won’t and don’t want to place the same restrictions on Finns. And then they say, it’s not about ethnicity. It don’t add up.

    Take the argument about girls being educated seperately. Some of Europes finest schools (mainly private) have operated on a girls-only and boys-only basis. Though Muslims call for it on religious grounds, there are several academic studies that say boys and girls do better when they study apart. This is not the end of the debate, on any of the points I’ve made, but it does show a level of hypocracy in attacking Muslims for undermining ‘our culture’.

    Take the issue of Muslims asking for a say in legal matters and an element of independence. We say that it is wrong that the laws should be different for different citizens. Indeed, Finland’s constitution is very strict in saying all are equal before the law. But is it so wrong or strange to ask for different laws to apply? In the UK, there is not unified legal system. The laws that operate in England & Wales are different in Scotland and different again in N. Ireland. That’s not to say that is wrong or right, it’s just to say that different legal systems within one Country is not so alian to Western culture as many people make out. There is a further irony, because on the one hand Muslims are criticised for calling for their own local courts, while at the same time those people that oppose those courts on principle then call for different laws to apply to Muslim immigrants who would commit crime. Again, utter hypocracy.

    Finally, on the issue of marriage. Some Muslim leaders have called for Muslims to marry Muslims, to preserve the religion with the household. One might call that a form of racism on the part of Muslims, but it wasn’t so long ago that Catholics marrying Protestants was equally taboo, and even today, for people who are deeply religious, seeing that religion continue is very important. I know couples where one is Catholic the other Protestant, and the Catholic feels an obligation to have the children baptised in the Catholic church. These are religious matters, that couples have to decide upon. They are not always easy. But neither are they alien to our Western culture. Once again, there is hypocracy in labelling such conflicts and questions as originating only and ever in the Alien culture.

    • Enrique

      Mark and dear bloggers, I sent this message from my iPhone and that spelling corrector is the pits! Anti-Islam “Heillö” and “de lared?” What are those words? 🙂

      It should read: “anti-Islam parties make the same claim about those groups they have declared war on: you are so different from us (sic) that you cannot live with us. This then allows that person to embark on a crusade where hatred and racism is justified.

  6. Mark

    And just to add to this question of Sharia law being so alien to Western culture, there is also the Military Courts, which apply a different set of rules of behaviour and punishments upon military personnel.

    Most offences by members of the armed forces against service law are dealt with by Commanding Officers through a summary hearing. Examples of offences which can be dealt with by a Commanding Officer include being absent without leave, insubordination, malingering, conduct prejudicial to good order, ill-treating subordinates and various offences against civilian law such as theft, assault, criminal damage, and careless driving. Offences which cannot be dealt with summarily include assisting the enemy, misconduct on operations (which includes a range of offences committed when the enemy is nearby, such as surrendering a position, sleeping on duty, and spreading alarm or despondency), mutiny, and desertion

    So, different laws applying to citizens differently. And in the case of military personnel in the UK, sleeping on the job, spreading despondency, insubordination and malingering are punishable offences. 🙂

    This is not an end of the argument about whether Sharia should be allowed or how much. It’s just to counter the argument that it’s total alien to OUR culture to have seperate judicial systems apply to different citizens.

  7. Seppo

    Mark

    Yes, what I mean by accepting conservatism is that I somehow understand those people. There are all kinds of conservatives, urban and rural, young and old, bad on not-so-bad. What I am thinking about, however, is a guy in his 50s or 60s, sitting in his armchair in Viitasaari or some other small town or village, being mostly satisfied with how things are now and not needing any change, that is, being actually afraid of change. Telling him that this society will now become multicultural and pluralist will scare him and make him vote conservative. So I understand him. And even though there might be some xenophobia, or at least sceptism towards foreigners behind it, I think his choice is acceptable.

    You are right about saying that many ‘anti-immigration’ people are actually ‘anti-immigrant’. That is true. Take the usual example of Halla-aho. He is mostly critisizing immigrants and groups of people living here in Finland, not Finnish government’s immigration policies. He is clearly more against certain people than the policies.

    What is also true is that discussing immigration critically will make immigrants already living in Finland feel uncomfortable. It might even create a hostile atmosphere in the whole society. This is a real problem since we cannot say that immigration is a thing that you just aren’t allowed to discuss critically. All policies, all decisions made by politicians should be evaluated and discussed in order to come to the best possible solutions.

    Immigration is a problematic topic since it is so connected to certain people. You don’t blame the sick if the health system doesn’t work but somehow, at least subconsiously, you might start blaming immigrants if immigration doesn’t work. Because of this we should be more careful when we talk about immigration, avoid any statements that some people might take personally and try to get all sides involved in the debate.

    What I am conserned about, when it comes to immigration, is fragmentation of the society. Finland has been a very unified society and I see this mostly as a strenght. There is now a risk that some immigrants or even whole immigrant groups are left outside the society. It’s about the immigrants themselves as well but mostly it is about me and my fellow Finns. What we need to do is to make Finnishness more open and inclusive, to accept different ways of being a Finn. Otherwise integration will fail and the society will be fragmented along ethnocultural lines.

    • Enrique

      –Telling him that this society will now become multicultural and pluralist will scare him and make him vote conservative.

      Seppo, let’s try to look 50-75 years in the future. By then, I think, the majority of the Finns will be “white” but there will be a big minority who are not. Like everything new now, later on it will be accepted and life will return to normal. That is exactly the history of many immigrant groups: rejection but later on acceptance.

  8. Mark

    Seppo, I think you make some very perceptive comments. Finland has been unified, but at the same time, for a young nation, it might be said that the national identity has still to mature in some aspects in regard to some people. I sympathise with your old gent in Viitasaari – the world is changing, and not for the better! 🙂

    But maybe it happens that for that old gentleman, when he goes to an old folks home, he finds his room mate is a Finnish immigrant recently returned, with stories of the world and strange lands, and the man from Viitisaari will might think he’s lived a rather boring life and maybe it would have been nicer to experience more of the world. 🙂

    I like the way you write Seppo. And I take your concerns on board as they are backed up by concerned insight. I really hope that we get more people involved and talking more is good, especially if it isn’t done in an atmosphere of bitter recrimination. So, maybe Allan and Hannu (regulars on this blog) will stay at home 😀

    Finnish identity is maturing. Integration needs proper resources. And us immigrants really need to get a handle on this Finnish language.

    That is why I’m going to be all out to make a new website for learning Finnish. Let’s hope I can get some official support – it will make it easier and perhaps quicker to implement.

  9. Seppo

    It is definitely good to discuss these issues! I wish you the best of luck with learning Finnish and setting up the web site. In a year or two you can make a roadtrip to Viitasaari and enchange a word or two with our old gent – I have a feeling that you would get along just fine 🙂

  10. Mark

    Seppo

    Thanks. In a year or two, I will be ready to discuss these issues with our friend from Viitasaari in Finnish. 🙂

    It is hard work sometimes, to get to the bottom of things. There are so many things to be considered, and statements made on all sides of the debate often raise more questions than they answer. We all want to be right, or at least acknowledged as not being crazy, or racist, if our thoughts on immigration are cautious. I realise more and more that it’s important to recognise when people genuinely care about the situation.

    Looking at racism in its clearest and most extreme, and that doesn’t mean with it’s openly admitted either, no, the denials are often the strongest then, it’s clear that it is some kind of disease. I think anti-immigrationists are right to ask those in favour of multiculturism to look at the subject and discuss calmly the problems. If we cannot do that, then that suggests that we have an agenda, that is about being ‘defenders’, and that could just as easily be a ‘saving script’, similar in kind to the racists seeking to ‘save Finland’.

    I remember as a young men recognising this tendency to want to ‘rescue’ people. 🙂 In many ways it can be a good impulse, but aligned to an arrogant belief that one always knows best, as it was when I was young, the danger is one becomes a fanatic. I hope those days are behind me. I’m sure they are. We are all people, and I recognise the motives of most of us are human. Timo Soini, who I personally find charming, is nevertheless a very canny political strategist, but I fear the price of his increased popularity is more extremism. Not because he advocates it, but because he’s happy to have those strands in his party. He’s almost saying, ‘I know there are idiots in our party who are hot-heads, but their basic motivation is good’. Well, yes, Soini, up until the point they kick that foreigners head in because they think half of Finland supports their ‘passion for the Fatherland!’. A dangerous game, this politics.

  11. Mark

    By disease, I mean that there is something missing psychologically that one is trying to compensate for. Hence the idea of the ‘saving’ script. The need to be a hero often stems from having been relied upon too much in childhood to shoulder ‘adult’ responsibility. Hence, one must be strong and mature beyond your years in order to ‘save’ a member of the family or a close friend, when really, one is being manipulated and damaged emotionally. When childhood is over, we seek other causes and people to save. 🙂

    And heroes need a war. Funny, really, because I think Allan, one of the most obvious racists commenting on this blog, kind of understands this when he accuses us of needing racism in order to fight it.

    There is some good old fashioned Freudian projection going on here. Although racism exists, he is the one fighting to show that it doesn’t, trying to save us from our delusions of pluralism. His war is therefore with us, and anyone who would point out the obvious, even to the point where he dismisses the statistics as ‘made up, subjective, or just a conspiracy of the politicians and the police’.

    But when one starts to think of conspiracies on that kind of scale, it’s clear that we have been consumed by some kind of fanaticism. But he’s a smart bloke. He’ll figure it out eventually. That’s the thing with projection, we rebel against the ‘authority’ and see all our faults in them, to the point where we become obsessed with pointing them out. I guess the same is true of me now, by bringing Allan into the discussion. 🙂

    But really, it’s just a case of wondering what makes the guy tick. Would he ever see it from the other perpective. I think people like yourself Seppo can easily see the other side, but are confident enough to know your own motives and so can speak also from a point of view of caution. That’s quite different from disagreeing with anything and anything your opponent has to say, because to give even a tiny bit of ground is to concede they might be right about other things too. That is the impossible position of a fanatic; that is the corner you get boxed into. defend, defend, defend, in case the whole edifice comes crashing down. And it’s always a war!

    Blah, blah….I’m meandering. 🙂 Maybe I’m already in that old folks home myself. 🙂

  12. JusticeDemon

    Mark

    For issues of individual crime, there are very few crimes that can really be related to ethnicity, such as honour killings. It’s important to remember though that many within Muslim cultures also abhor honour killings. Likewise, it is also important to remember that ‘revenge killing’ is not a concept completely unknown to the West either, even if we don’t call it ‘honour’.

    Finland has its own version of homicide committed out of an exaggerated sense of family and community identity. It took only a few minutes to find some recent examples in online reports here, here, here and here.

    These cases often fit a murder-suicide pattern, which has been a sufficiently common phenomenon in Finland to be the subject of various magazine articles and at least one academic dissertation.

    At least one common thread in these cases seems to be the loss of personal identity (or loss of face) experienced by a perpetrator due to recent or imminent family breakdown. There are indications in reporting and dialogue concerning such cases that perpetrators enjoy a degree of sympathy and understanding in society at large, and are not necessarily always classified as abnormal.

    Patriarchal violence is in general not unknown in traditional Finnish rural communities.

  13. Allan

    O, Mark of the Colonial Office despising the natives. The Finns kind of figured out this “single arrow breaks, but you cannot break a bunch of arrows” thing very fast after a devastating civil war that is not in any ancient history but 2-3 generations away.

    Multiculturalism is “splitting the bunch” to single arrows that can be easily broken. Of course it has been in the interest of politicians since antiquity, to divide and rule.

  14. JusticeDemon

    Mark

    It’s a trivial point of law that the law varies according to the situation and circumstances of the individual. For example the legally enforceable minimum wage in Finland varies according to industry and type of work, it is not assault to hit an opponent in a boxing ring in certain ways, and two Finnish companies based in Finland are free to agree that their disputes will be subject to arbitration in London under English law.

    Religious adjudication is essentially a process that the religiously devout choose to enter into with a view to ordering their affairs in a way that is acceptable to their religious communities and, by extension, to themselves. Provided that in purely secular terms they remain free to disengage from the community, there is no more objection to this than there could be to the effective suspension (or radical reinterpretation) of the right to security of person in the boxing ring.

  15. Allan

    Noticed already you want to destroy the Finnish society, Enrique, but I did not comprehend you had such a genocidal trait to it. Do you plan to kill the Finns off by distributing diseases, o grand conquistador?

    • Enrique

      –Noticed already you want to destroy the Finnish society, Enrique, but I did not comprehend you had such a genocidal trait to it. Do you plan to kill the Finns off by distributing diseases, o grand conquistador?

      Allan, you know as well as I that this argument is absurd. It is, by the way, one of the arguments used by anti-immigration groups: you are the conquistadors (immigrants) and we are the poor natives. Are you spreading these type of views on immigration on the net?

  16. Seppo

    – let’s try to look 50-75 years in the future. By then, I think, the majority of the Finns will be “white” but there will be a big minority who are not. Like everything new now, later on it will be accepted and life will return to normal. That is exactly the history of many immigrant groups: rejection but later on acceptance.

    Yes, I think so too. At least I sincerily hope so! I hope that immigrants will be accepted – this is one of the major problems now, the unacceptence from the “native” Finns’ side, but things will hopefully get better.

    The difference here might be that unlike with some previous immigrant groups – who came, stayed and were eventually accepted – there are all the time coming new immigrants. I mean, once some get integrated and accepted there are all the time new ones, maybe all the time more and more new ones, who need to go through the same process. And the situation might become blocked in a way that the society doesn’t have the ability to integrate the previous ones before the new ones arrive. Hard to explane, hope you get the idea.

    In this respect I’m not sure what you mean by “life will return to normal”. That immigration stops at some point and those who arrived before that point will be integrated and accepted and then all is well? Right now it seems to me that immigration will just go on and go on and in both good and bad there is no back to “normal”. And this is exactly what some people don’t want to accept, even though it would be better just to focus on making the best of it.

    • Enrique

      By “life will return to normal” I mean that it won’t be a big deal to be different ethnically in Finland.

  17. BoredinFinland

    I wonder how these PS people are going to stop the inevitable here in Finland. It is evident that the new reality in Europe (UK, Belgium, The Netherlands just to give few examples) is their multiculturalism. There are thousand of people who already live in the EU with EU passports who are Muslim, black, mestizo, etc. You cant stop them to come here (oh yes the Rumanian are coming again soon!!! ), Finland, if they desire to do so. The European Parliament is full of them!

    And the question to ask is, what kind of people want to migrate to Finland? It seems if you are an educated professional you would not look at Finland, unless, the country assure them that they will find favourable conditions to find work and integrate into society. This small detail is missing form the equation: Lest be honest, this country does not offer, for us immigrants, the same living conditions than the UK, Australia or Canada. Yes, it was rewarded as the best country to live in the world! but the main problem is the language, the harsh weather ( almost six months of winter), the darkness, and the attitude of the people. You have got to have a lot patience when settle in here.

    • Enrique

      Hi BoredinFinland. Good point: “It seems if you are an educated professional you would not look at Finland, unless, the country assure them that they will find favourable conditions to find work and integrate into society.”

      Certainly the more xenophobic bunch believe that hordes are waiting at our gates to move to this country. We have the answer already: We still have a small (2.9%) foreign population and most of these are not here because of employment. It means that skilled people are going elsewhere. If I were an engineer and got a job at Nokia (probably less likely today) Finland would be a stepping stone to other countries like Germany, England, the US or Canada.

      But yes, Finland does not appear to be a magnet for highly skilled labor.

  18. JusticeDemon

    Ricky

    The great danger is that Finland becomes a place that the newly qualified use as a stepping stone to more desirable destinations. They come to Finland to make their pre-competence blunders and gain early work experience before heading off to other places to do their best and most productive work. If Finland cannot compete in terms of material rewards for labour, then it will have to compete in terms of the entire social inclusion package.

  19. Allan

    Well you make a lot of noise for being a 2.9% minority, but didn’t Pizzarro conquer Peru with 15 horses and a few bandits? Or was that Cortez in Mexico?

    • Enrique

      –Well you make a lot of noise for being a 2.9% minority, but didn’t Pizzarro conquer Peru with 15 horses and a few bandits?

      Are you losing it Allan? Can’t debate in a civil fashion but must go into insult-mode? But that’s the case: you actually believe immigrants are conquistadores! Allan, we may disagree, but please some seriousness.

      I wouldn’t recommend you reading about Pizarro or Córtez. I’d suggest Alvar Nuñez Cabeza de Vaca. There you’ll find what turned him from conquistador to first American.

      Then again another recommendation would be to stop visiting websites like Hommaforum. They definitely distort your good judgement of other cultures.

  20. Allan

    What makes you different from a conquistador? You come to tell the natives what to do, destroy their values and impose your own instead.

    I got an excellent book on the conquistadors when I was a kid. Really intriguing stories and lives. Most of them were illiterate and uncivilized, even they could claim noble blood, totally ignorant of the land and people, and just due to the religious frevor of greed of gold they conquered vast empires within a generation of the “finding” of the Americas.

  21. Tiwaz

    So, all you people who say how multiculturalism is so great and works fine and all that jazz…

    Why multiculturalism is more and more rejected in societies where it’s benefits should be most obvious?

    France is rejecting it, Germany has declared it failure, British are rejecting it…

    Not to mention that you people repeatedly fail to address the problems of multiculti. You just pretend that it’s sunshine and happy thoughts.

    What about problems caused by representatives of different cultures refusing to adjust to existing cultural framework of society they have moved into? What I see here is demands that Finns must this, Finns must that. I do not see, least of all anti-Finnish racists like Enrique, saying that IMMIGRANTS must change to fit the society.

    Accept that things are not like at home and change and adjust.

    Multiculturalism fails because it fails to respect right of natives and majority to their culture being preserved and respected. Multiculturalists only concern themselves over the “plurality”, not functionality.

    Swedish speaking Finns? That tells us clearly why that “pluralism” works. It is not pluralism, it is local flavor of Finnish culture. Differences between Swedish speaking Finn and Finnish speaking Finn are extremely tiny if we compare either of them to Somali, Portugese, Malay or Venezuelan.

    Multiculturalism fails because it has no means of addressing situation where cultures have conflicting values and principles. You can’t just say “must tolerate”, because for multicultis this means “natives must tolerate”. Long term this is impossible situation.

    Future of Finland is that sooner or later immigrants must accept that they cannot dictate how society works, they have to adjust to the society or we will have problems like Sweden, France, Germany, UK, USA, Canada and all others who have attempted one or another form of multiculti.

    If immigrants as vast majority do NOT change to adjust, they will be forced to. All over world you see attitudes towards immigrants refusing to adjust tighten and harden. Either natives or immigrants must change their culture to fit to the other.

    And because natives in wealthy nations are majority, it will be the immigrants who have to change themselves. Question is not if they have to change, but how much damage must happen before they do.

  22. Niko

    Tiwaz I believe multiculturalism is pretty much like communism. It is a good and positive idea, but doesn’t work in real life. But yeah, ideologies comes and goes, let’s see what is after multiculturalism.

    • Enrique

      –Tiwaz I believe multiculturalism is pretty much like communism. It is a good and positive idea, but doesn’t work in real life. But yeah, ideologies comes and goes, let’s see what is after multiculturalism.

      Niko, thank you for pointing out a third argument of anti-immigration groups: multiculturalism equals communism. Let me throw a monkey wrench in your “it-is-a-good-and-positive-idea-but” argument… Is living in a country that teaches and encouarges self-worth, self-esteem (individual and group) being idealistic? What you are saying is that our own view of social equality is a bunch of “good idea but unatainable. Let’s start killing each other instead.”

      I have three so far. Any more?

      1. Natives (Euroindians) are being conquered by conquistadores (immigrants);
      2. Victims of racism are racists;
      3. Multiculturalism is fine on paper but, like communism, does not work.

  23. Niko

    Enrique

    I didn’t say that I’m against immigration. Immigration is not the same thing as multiculturalism or then we have probably different definition for it.

    • Enrique

      –I didn’t say that I’m against immigration. Immigration is not the same thing as multiculturalism or then we have probably different definition for it.

      Tell me what multiculturalism is and how you plan to integrate people from different cultures into Finnish society?

  24. Allan

    People having a lawn and regulating who comes to play is a country. People deciding to play football on the lawn is democracy. New players coming in is immigration. New players playing rugby instead of football during the game is multiculturallism. Football players leaving the pitch is white flight.

  25. Mark

    Twaz

    – “So, all you people who say how multiculturalism is so great and works fine and all that jazz…You just pretend that it’s sunshine and happy thoughts.”

    How can you seriously pretend to yourself that you are really debating this issue when you so blatantly misrepresent your opponents views? Have you never heard of a straw man argument?

    Okay, first – I don’t know anyone who argues the value multiculturalism who hasn’t been aware of the challenges it brings. That means, simply and plainly, there are problems, on both sides of the cultural ‘divide’. So this ‘it’s all happiness and light’ might give you an easy target in terms of attacking your opponents, but really, you might as well be stabbing at clouds for all the relevance your comments have to the real debate.

    – “France is rejecting it, Germany has declared it failure, British are rejecting it…Not to mention that you people repeatedly fail to address the problems of multiculti. Why multiculturalism is more and more rejected in societies where it’s benefits should be most obvious?”

    A right-wing German politician declared it a failure whilst fighting off a resurgent Far Right component in the political arena. Do you see the link? It’s called political strategy, and sadly, in this instance, it has little to do with the truth. Merkal offered absolutely no explanation of that failure or its causes. What was not reported in that speech was Merkel saying that Islam was a part of Germany’s modern-day culture and that immigrants were welcome. She also called on Germans to accept that foreigners are a part of their country. See, your reporting is very one-sided, no!

    Horst Seehofer, a leading Bavarian Politician who shared the stage with Merkel that day and also declared that multiculturism was dead, said that the comments they made were an attempt to stop ‘right wing lunatics’. Hmm, I wonder what he meant by that. You see, political strategy.

    The increase in bad feeling towards immigrants has been directly linked to insecurity about the economy. Again, see the link? Does the word ‘scapegoats’ enter your vocabulary?

    France, also governed by a Right-wing politician who is also fighting off a resurgent National Front, who have ‘socialised’ their policies in much the same way PS have, and by way of a history lesson, as did Hitler with the renaming of the German Workers Party to Nationalist Social Workers Party.

    – “Swedish speaking Finns? That tells us clearly why that “pluralism” works. It is not pluralism, it is local flavor of Finnish culture. Differences between Swedish speaking Finn and Finnish speaking Finn are extremely tiny…”

    Well, I wonder how Swedish-speaking Finns feel about you saying that.

    – “Multiculturalism fails because it has no means of addressing situation where cultures have conflicting values and principles. You can’t just say “must tolerate”, because for multicultis this means “natives must tolerate”. Long term this is impossible situation.”

    Says who? So, let’s put flesh on this monster of yours. What conflicting values and principles are you talking about. Let’s have an example and see what, if anything, multiculti has to say about it, not that I ever thought it was a specific voice of policy, but let’s indulge you for a moment.

    – “Future of Finland is that sooner or later immigrants must accept that they cannot dictate how society works”

    How can a minority dictate to a majority? Tell me one law that has changed in any European country because it was lobbied specifically by a minority group against the will of the majority?

    You are talking completely out of your arse, Twaz!

    – “or we will have problems like Sweden, France, Germany, UK, USA, Canada and all others who have attempted one or another form of multiculti.”

    Let’s talk specific problems. I know there are problems (of racial and ethnic tensions), lots of them, so let’s see what your solutions are?

    – “If immigrants as vast majority do NOT change to adjust, they will be forced to.”

    Or what, you’ll send them to a gas chamber, to labour camps?! So, we will have trains, with immigrants and minority groups herded and sheperded to the docks, to be placed on boats heading to where exactly? Have you any idea how many immigrants there are in Germany, for example? 16 million. So, you are literally going to be ‘forcing’ millions of people to give up their culture. My God, that sounds like something to parallel the worst abuses of communism.

    You really haven’t a clue, have you Twaz. You parade your hatred like it has political and social legitimacy and really, all it does is show that you view human beings in different categories and for some categories, you have absolutely no respect for their basic human rights – right to freedom, right to self-expression, right to religion, and the right to live in safety and security.

    Niko

    – “I believe multiculturalism is pretty much like communism. ”

    I would love to see you go to an international conference of sociologists and present that idea. The silence in the room would be deafening. People would actually be feeling very sorry for you, Niko.

  26. Niko

    Different people define multiculturalism in different things, so my definition might not as others see it. Of course, you turn me a racist anyway so there is not point to describe what I mean, but let’s try. But I do not support these things:

    – “Positive” discrimination for favour of minors. I believe, everybody should treat equally, no matter the person’s ethnic background. If there is a good Finn candidate and not as good immigrant candidate for the same job, the employer should hire the Finn. And same thing other way around.
    – Immigrants trying change the native country’s culture. They are a “guests” in the country and should try to integrate to the culture. This doesn’t mean that you have to forget who you are. You can still have your opinions, religious beliefs etc. but you have to know that you are in the different country now, this is not the country where are you from and it never will be. I was working almost two years in China and I didn’t try to force my believes to Chinese society and “rock the boat”. It is called respect for your host country.
    – Decline country’s own culture. It is so outrageous that nowadays it is not ok to have Christmas parties in some school or sing Christian songs, because it might upset minorities. I’m myself an atheist and I don’t see how this kind of activities could upset anyone. Finland has been a Christian country quite long time already and Christianity is a big part of our culture.
    – Majority are ALWAYS racist. If you are belonging to majority it seems that whatever you might do, you become a racist. If you disagree with minority, you are a racist. If you don’t hire a minority, you are racist. If you don’t like the person, you are racist. The whole word is losing it’s meaning, because it is used so often everywhere.

    These are a few things which pop-up in my mind. I do support democracy and equality, but unfortunately in “multiculturalism” this doesn’t happen, because minorities has to be treated differently.

  27. Niko

    Mark

    – I would love to see you go to an international conference of sociologists and present that idea. The silence in the room would be deafening. People would actually be feeling very sorry for you, Niko.

    I didn’t mean that multiculturalism is like the ideology communism, I meant that it is also an ideology which doesn’t work in real life.

  28. Mark

    Niko

    – “I didn’t mean that multiculturalism is like the ideology communism, I meant that it is also an ideology which doesn’t work in real life.”

    Thanks for the polite reply. Okay, you didn’t mean that. I’m sorry. Let’s look at what you did mean.

    First, there isn’t one kind of communism in the same way there isn’t just one kind of multicultarism. Communism exists in the world today in China, Cuba and several other places still. China’s modern interpretation of communism, while doing nothing to lead the world in human rights, is nevertheless hugely successful and becoming more so. Some can argue that it’s capitalism in disguise, but really, China is not the USA. It’s not a democracy, it’s a communist state, so let’s not lose sight of that.

    Second, multiculturalism as a concept covers varying degrees of meaning from ‘peaceful co-existence to cultural co-operation’. Fundamental to it is the idea that all people are entitled to maintain their ethnic identity. This isn’t a catch-all statement and it doesn’t mean that some elements of culture will clash. But the simple fact is, if it’s illegal – it’s illegal, and practicing it will bring the law down on you. And if it isn’t, that means people are free to choose. It’s that simple. There is no grey area here. So where does this idea of a ‘clash’ come from. I cannot hear the cymbals?

    We talk about this academically, but really, what do we know about it? Well, I’m an immigrant with a Celtic origin. Not so different? I don’t know. It’s hard to fit ‘culture’ into a neat box and make one on one comparisons with another culture also dumped into another box. The fact is, in my home, there are differences in the way we approach some things. Water must only just cover the potatoes for my Finnish wife, my potatoes get a good drowning. Socks must leave the washing machine two by two for the Finn, and for me, they only pair up just before they enter the sock box. For my wife ‘voin’ means a promise, but for me, it’s simply saying, yes, that is possible. That has created misunderstanding and tension. Whenever one of the two languages is being spoken in our house, someone’s culture is left out in the cold, and if it happens too much, there is tension. But you know, if you said to me that our multicultural home was a failure, I’d punch you in the face! Who the fuck are you to say my family is a failure? You see what I mean.

    The simply truth is, that is what multiculturalism actually is – lots of families up and down the country that have mixed cultures, lots of friendships and workplaces that have mixed cultures and people getting on and sometimes not getting on. But really, how is that different in essence to any other family, friendship or workplace? So to be called a ‘failure’, that’s really starting to get personal. But maybe that’s the point – to get people worked up so that they fuck up. Then you simply point the finger and say, ‘there, see, I told you, criminal!’

  29. Niko

    Mark

    Thanks for your, almost polite, reply 😉

    – China’s modern interpretation of communism, while doing nothing to lead the world in human rights, is nevertheless hugely successful and becoming more so. Some can argue that it’s capitalism in disguise, but really, China is not the USA. It’s not a democracy, it’s a communist state, so let’s not lose sight of that.

    I would say that China is not a communist country anymore. It was 20 years ago, but nowadays it is more like a ultra-capitalist country. The money is everything. If I have understood correctly, capitalist country doesn’t have to be democratic. Of course, this is just my opinion and you might disagree with that.

    – And if it isn’t, that means people are free to choose. It’s that simple. There is no grey area here. So where does this idea of a ‘clash’ come from.

    I do support that as an immigrant you can choose and do things as long as they follow Finland’s- and international laws. However, I think there is a grey area. If women wears a burkha, how can we know if she is forced to wear it or it is her own choice? This is just again my opinion, but I think burkha should be banned, but a scarf which is not covering the face should be accepted.

    – The fact is, in my home, there are differences in the way we approach some things.

    The things you mentioned are only affecting to your family’s life and are quite minor things, except maybe in the relationship. These sort of things even Finn-Finn marriages can have and they just have to sort themselves. I’m more concerned about the culture differences which can causing conflicts with the people outside of your family. My apology, if my text offended you.

  30. Mark

    Niko

    Okay, nice to see us going in the direction of ‘polite’.

    – “Positive” discrimination for favour of minors. If there is a good Finn candidate and not as good immigrant candidate for the same job, the employer should hire the Finn. And same thing other way around.”

    A few points I want to make here. First, you are talking about a policy, and while multiculturalism does work at the level of policy, it is only one small cog in the whole inter-cultural machine.

    Second, a good candidate should win out over a less good candidate – in an equal playing field, though I’m sure the lesser candidates in society would be quite fed up with that ‘bias’. But it’s understandable in a competitive world. And it’s not illegal. However, ethnicity does not create a level playing field.

    Positive discrimination came into being because no matter the level of qualifications, people were still discriminated against in the job market. Things were not changing, and no-one could any longer blame a lack of competence or skills. Now positive discrimination is a very blunt instrument – but this problem is so intransigent that only a ‘hammer’ has any chance of breaking it open. That is the basic reality for policy makers. The same applied to gender.

    Finally on this point, much is said about ‘the best candidate’, but prejudice works to identify even the best candidate. There was some brilliant research done in the US a few years ago, where psychology professors, both male and female, were sent made up CVs, some with a woman’s name and some with a man’s name though identical in every other aspect. The professors were asked to assess their suitability for an internship and were asked to rate the candidate against several criteria, including qualifications, research experience, and character. Now here is the rub, both male and female professors statistically significantly rated the ‘male’ candidates as being better in all criteria. And these are professors of psychology, and they cannot even see their own biases, what of the rest of us? Prejudice can be ingrained in ways we cannot imagine, simply because we think we are using categories like ‘good candidate’ and ‘bad candidate’, when in fact, gender, race and age are factors affecting those judgements.

    – “Immigrants trying change the native country’s culture. They are a “guests” in the country and should try to integrate to the culture.”

    I agree. I think that foreigners should try to integrate. That doesn’t mean abandoning their own culture, but just learning about, respecting, and if they want, adopting elements of the host culture. But at the same time, I would defend the right of any person to be politically active whatever their country of origin, and that means they can lobby for changes or for special interest favours, in much the same way that tens of thousands of special interest groups in Finland already do. Freedom of expression extends to ‘freedom of political expression’. If you don’t like it, don’t support it, just the same you would with a Finn suggesting something politically you disagree with. But really Niko – could you give some examples, because I really would like to know what it is that you find so difficult to live with.

    – “This doesn’t mean that you have to forget who you are. You can still have your opinions, religious beliefs etc. but you have to know that you are in the different country now, this is not the country where are you from and it never will be.”

    Seriously, as a foreigner in Finland, I can promise you that almost no immigrant is going to forget that they are in a foreign country in Finland, except possibly some from the border areas.

    – “Decline country’s own culture. It is so outrageous that nowadays it is not ok to have Christmas parties in some school or sing Christian songs, because it might upset minorities.”

    Funny you said you were an atheist because I’ve seen plenty of them complaining about all the Christian traditions in schools, when church and state (and state institutions) are supposed to be kept seperate.

    – “Majority are ALWAYS racist. If you are belonging to majority it seems that whatever you might do, you become a racist.”

    Let me reassure you, simply belonging to a majority does not make you a racist. Denying minorities any of the rights of the majority is what typically constitutes racism.

    If you disagree with a minority, you are not being a racist necessarily. It really depends on what the disagreement is. If you disagree that they should have the same rights as the majority, based on their ethnicity etc., then yes, then you are being racist.

    – “If you don’t hire a minority, you are racist.”

    No, that does not make you a racist unless you didn’t hire them only because they were from an ethnic minority, in which case then you would be a racist.

    “If you don’t like the person, you are racist.”

    No, only if you don’t like them because of their ‘ethnicity’ will it be racism.

    – “The whole word is losing it’s meaning, because it is used so often everywhere.”

    Well, I’m not surprised it’s losing its meaning if you are going to throw it around like that. You know, Niko, very few people admit to racism, and when there is racism in the job market, or in every day dealings with people, the justifications are usually the kinds of thing that will get them off the hook – it’s not about race, it’s about qualifications, it’s not about race, it’s about their personality, it’s not about race, it’s about being free to criticise. When actually, it’s all about the race.

    Of course you can’t prove this, but when it’s persistent to the point where minorities find it statistically more difficult to find work when all other factors are taken into account, then you have to suspect racism. Now those excuses that racists throw out spoil it for everybody then, because then people are afraid to criticise for fear of being called a racist, but let’s not forget how this problem starts, it starts with racists trying to muddy the water and avoid admitting what most people generally admit is something reminiscent of Nazis and the likes.

    Racism wasn’t a word dreamt up by moralists out to bash their fellow citizens, or to ‘save’ the minorities from the difficulties of adjusting to the changes that come with migration. Racism was coined to describe the worst abuses of humanity in the field of slavery. Since then, racism has been expanded to cover not just skin colour, but ethnicity and language and other strong ‘cultural’ identities. You should know what I mean, because clearly you see these people as ‘different’, which they are, in some respects.

    The question about racism is how people are treated because of that difference.

  31. Seppo

    – Fundamental to it is the idea that all people are entitled to maintain their ethnic identity.

    I guess I could also reveal that my girlfriend, soon to be wife, is an immigrant. I believe that doesn’t have a big impact on my views on immigration since I was quite liberal already before I met her and actually the past years I might have become slightly less liberal in certain few aspects.

    Socks and potatos, nice examples but like Niko wrote, they are things that can cause debate in all marriages, even though both would have the same cultural background. So I believe you are doing quite fine with your wife if those are your biggest differences.

    Anyway, regarding the ethnic identity, I must say I cannot agree. If multiculturalism means that then I’m not for it. We can have a long discussion about what an ethnic identity actually is, whether you’re born with it or not, wheter it can change during your lifetime or not. My opinion is that an ethnic identity is not something that is in your blood but in your head, meaning it is mostly influenced by your surroundings, the social context, the people around – not your genes. You are what you think/believe/feel you are. Of course outsider opinions and some more objective qualities like skin color, religion or mother tongue matter and influence as well.

    I don’t think it is a good thing for a society if it is split into separete different ethnic groupings. I believe that people living in a certain society need to share a common identity – this is how they will work together, show solidarity, respect each others differences. Without it they might not. This identity doesn’t have to be an ethnich one, actually if people have different backgrounds it cannot be stricly speaking an ethnic one, but there has to be one, and this common identity should be the most essential one.

    In Finland this identity shared by as many residents as possible shall be the Finnish (national) identity.

    I have earlier mentioned the Swedish-speaking Finns as a good example of this and I will do it again. Their are Finnish by nationality, show loyalty to the Finnish state and identify with this country and it’s people. Still they have their Swedish language and their somewhat specific Finnish-Swedish culture. Now I wouldn’t necessarily call this Finnish-Swedish identity an ethnich one, someone else might, nevertheless it is the model that I would like to see in the future with other minorities in Finland as well.

    Immigration in a way that all immigrants preserve their ethnic identity as opposite to a Finnish identity will fail, no doupt about it.

    I believe America, the US, is an example of relatively succesful multiculturalism. Do people have separate ethnic identities there? Yes and no. Mostly no. Most people see themselves as Americans and that is what they identify strongest with. Many are Afro-American, Mexican-American, Irish-American and for many this identity means a lot. For the first generation this identity is still the strongest one but the second, let alone the third generation, will mostly just identify as Americans. Last year I actually asked some young third and fourth generation Americans about this, wheter or not they identify with their “ethnic” background as Irish, Scandinavian, Finnish etc. They did not. They knew about their background, but they were just Americans.

  32. Mark

    Niko

    – “I would say that China is not a communist country anymore…nowadays it is more like a ultra-capitalist country.”

    I think most people would disagree with you, but there we are. Economically, China has adopted many capitalist idea, i.e. ownership, markets etc. But politically, in terms of the institutions of power and governance, China is absolutely a communist country.

    – “If women wears a burkha, how can we know if she is forced to wear it or it is her own choice?”

    I guess you could ask her? I think that is a bit more civilised than simply saying, ‘no, you cannot wear a Burkha’.

    And there is another problem with your solution, Niko. By making the Burkha illegal, you have criminalised the woman, and not the man, though I realise in France that anyone who forces someone to wear a Burkha is also committing an offence, but good luck with proving that one. Either way, criminalising the woman seems a contradiction if it is the woman’s rights you are trying to protect.

    – “The things you mentioned are only affecting to your family’s life and are quite minor things, except maybe in the relationship. These sort of things even Finn-Finn marriages can have and they just have to sort themselves.”

    Exactly, but this is multiculturalism. You cannot just take the things that don’t work and ignore the things that do work or are only minor. That would be like saying that football is a failure as a game because people just keep fouling each other. True if all you ever show in defence of that statement is clips of foul after foul. The truth is, no amount of clips will ever prove that there aren’t successful or peaceful elements to football – it takes just one small clip to show that is wrong. And this is what is wrong with statements like ‘Multicultarism is a failure’, it’s like saying ‘All swans are white’.

    – “I’m more concerned about the culture differences which can causing conflicts with the people outside of your family.”

    In other words, you are more concerned with the fouls in the game than the rest?

    – “My apology, if my text offended you.”

    Apology accepted.

  33. Mark

    Seppo

    – “Socks and potatos, nice examples but like Niko wrote, they are things that can cause debate in all marriages, even though both would have the same cultural background. So I believe you are doing quite fine with your wife if those are your biggest differences.”

    Yes, I notice you quote the more generic things I mentioned, but didn’t touch on language, the really big issue. The socks and potatoes I’ve had a laugh about with several mixed couples because it seems a Brit-Finn thing.

    But like I said to Niko, it’s like saying you don’t like football because of the fouls and ignore that there is a lot more to game. Yes, but the fouls, look at the fouls….no, look at the passing, look at the shooting, look at the dribbles and all the other glorious elements too!

    – My opinion is that an ethnic identity is not something that is in your blood but in your head, meaning it is mostly influenced by your surroundings, the social context, the people around – not your genes. You are what you think/believe/feel you are. Of course outsider opinions and some more objective qualities like skin color, religion or mother tongue matter and influence as well.

    I find this bolded text ‘you are what you think/believe/feel you are’ the most interesting here. You reject genes as a basis of ethnicity, describing surroundings, social context, and other people as important, but as you pointed out in part, you cannot really control those factors. So you to keep alive your idea of an ethnicity being something you can change, you have to go to the level of beliefs, feelings and thoughts. Can you see the problem in doing that, Seppo?

    It is not the job of politicians to legislate for what people think, believe or feel.

    Can I stress that enough? Why? Because that is accepted as a basic freedom. Why would we limit that freedom. I’ve already written in these comments elsewhere about the fact that the strongest objections to Muslims are built on an incorrect beliefs that their political requests are alien to our culture.

    – “This identity doesn’t have to be an ethnich one, actually if people have different backgrounds it cannot be stricly speaking an ethnic one, but there has to be one, and this common identity should be the most essential one.”

    I agree that a common identity is important to social cohesion. I would also say that the only real basis for that common identity that will stand the test of time is our ‘shared humanity’. Make of that what you will, but it is a simple set of values that include ‘live and let live, protect the weakest amongst us, and sustain our families and our productive work’.

    – “In Finland this identity shared by as many residents as possible shall be the Finnish (national) identity.”

    Maybe. Maybe all it needs is a hockey team! 🙂 I’ve met plenty of Finns who’ve travelled around parts of Finland and have commented on the peculiarities of local cultures and how they take time to adapt to, and how, in that sense, Finland doesn’t have a single homogenous culture.

    This question of sameness and difference is a fundamental question that us humans ask about the entire universe. Why? Because it marks the boundaries of reality as we know it. But as with many fields of knowledge, it also marks the limitations of our knowledge. In science, progress has typically come when disparate theories come together in larger frameworks of theory, where the ‘sameness’ is recognised.

    – “Immigration in a way that all immigrants preserve their ethnic identity as opposite to a Finnish identity will fail, no doubt about it.”

    That really depends on how much they strive to understand and adapt to Finnish culture. The immigrant communities in Finland are very active in promoting integration themselves whilst also preserving elements of their ethnic identities. Clearly if immigrants come here and isolate themselves, then there will be difficulties. Clearly if immigrants come here and they are isolated by Finns, there will be trouble. I know we agree about this Seppo, so I’m not saying it to educate you. Just that it’s important to remember in the context of ‘maintaining one’s ethnic identity’.

  34. Tiwaz

    – “How can you seriously pretend to yourself that you are really debating this issue when you so blatantly misrepresent your opponents views? Have you never heard of a straw man argument?”

    Read up what Enrique has posted in this blog. You notice that he always claims that multiculturalism is all sunshine. Best you get is that “there are some minor problems but we just have to tolerate our way through”.

    -“Okay, first – I don’t know anyone who argues the value multiculturalism who hasn’t been aware of the challenges it brings. That means, simply and plainly, there are problems, on both sides of the cultural ‘divide’. So this ‘it’s all happiness and light’ might give you an easy target in terms of attacking your opponents, but really, you might as well be stabbing at clouds for all the relevance your comments have to the real debate.”

    Read up on BS written by Enrique.

    – “A right-wing German politician declared it a failure whilst fighting off a resurgent Far Right component in the political arena. Do you see the link? It’s called political strategy, and sadly, in this instance, it has little to do with the truth. Merkal offered absolutely no explanation of that failure or its causes. What was not reported in that speech was Merkel saying that Islam was a part of Germany’s modern-day culture and that immigrants were welcome. She also called on Germans to accept that foreigners are a part of their country. See, your reporting is very one-sided, no!”

    And why it became so necessary for her to try to fight off the resurgence of immigration critical portion of political spectrum?

    BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE FED UP OF MULTICULTI BS!

    She had to turn her position against multiculturalism because it is not embraced by population at large.

    Multiculturalism is failed concept because it cannot successfully exist without people turning against it and it’s principles.

    -“Horst Seehofer, a leading Bavarian Politician who shared the stage with Merkel that day and also declared that multiculturism was dead, said that the comments they made were an attempt to stop ‘right wing lunatics’. Hmm, I wonder what he meant by that. You see, political strategy.”

    Which means in essence, we have to harden our position because people are fed up with our political line.

    -“The increase in bad feeling towards immigrants has been directly linked to insecurity about the economy. Again, see the link? Does the word ‘scapegoats’ enter your vocabulary?”

    You forget that this has been going on longer than economical downturn. People are fed up with foreigners coming to their native land and telling natives to bend over.

    -“France, also governed by a Right-wing politician who is also fighting off a resurgent National Front, who have ‘socialised’ their policies in much the same way PS have, and by way of a history lesson, as did Hitler with the renaming of the German Workers Party to Nationalist Social Workers Party.”

    Ah, and here it is again. Nazi card, the trusted tool of Multiculti Dork & Co. If you have no valid argument, scream Nazi and pretend it is an argument.

    – “Well, I wonder how Swedish-speaking Finns feel about you saying that.”

    Which ones do you think identify more with culturally, Finnish speaking Finns or Venezuelans?

    – “Says who? So, let’s put flesh on this monster of yours. What conflicting values and principles are you talking about. Let’s have an example and see what, if anything, multiculti has to say about it, not that I ever thought it was a specific voice of policy, but let’s indulge you for a moment.”

    Start with conflicting cultural norm of “proper” attire. It is quite well known that certain groups consider women who dress in short skirts or generally do not cover themselves as whores. How does multiculti solve this unsolvable issue?

    Immigrants want women covered, Finns want women wear whatever they want.

    For more information, go google “uncovered meat”.

    – “How can a minority dictate to a majority? Tell me one law that has changed in any European country because it was lobbied specifically by a minority group against the will of the majority?”

    With aid of politicians. That is why you see that “far right” resurgence, Dork.

    – “Let’s talk specific problems. I know there are problems (of racial and ethnic tensions), lots of them, so let’s see what your solutions are?”

    Integration. No BS about multiculti. No political rhetoric about multiculti etc.
    Either you adjust, or you get tossed out.

    – “Or what, you’ll send them to a gas chamber, to labour camps?! So, we will have trains, with immigrants and minority groups herded and sheperded to the docks, to be placed on boats heading to where exactly? Have you any idea how many immigrants there are in Germany, for example? 16 million. So, you are literally going to be ‘forcing’ millions of people to give up their culture. My God, that sounds like something to parallel the worst abuses of communism.”

    They gave up their native land, so they have to accept that they must leave that society behind as well. Many do, but far too many try to pretend they did not move to another nation with completely different cultural norms.

    Solution to this is simply radical reduction on immigrants permitted in through much tighter rules on who is admitted in, and faster removal of unwanted ones. Swiss have right idea when they are setting up fast and unappealable deportation.

    -“You really haven’t a clue, have you Twaz. You parade your hatred like it has political and social legitimacy and really, all it does is show that you view human beings in different categories and for some categories, you have absolutely no respect for their basic human rights – right to freedom, right to self-expression, right to religion, and the right to live in safety and security. ”

    When their security and rights are paid by me, they owe me that they respect my freedoms, my culture and my language.

    Everyone unhappy with way Finland is and want to replace it’s culture with their own, are perfectly free to leave.

  35. Mark

    Twat

    – “Read up what Enrique has posted in this blog. You notice that he always claims that multiculturalism is all sunshine. Read up on BS written by resident racist Enrique.”

    This question is very easily resolved: Enrique, is multiculturalism all sunshine?

    – “And why it became so necessary for her to try to fight off the resurgence of immigration critical portion of political spectrum?”

    Nice that you changed the subject. 🙂 So you agreed it wasn’t about whether it was really dead or not, but actually political maneouvring?

    – “BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE FED UP OF MULTICULTI BS!”

    Yes, I totally agree that some people are fed up of multiculti. But why does that mean it’s failed? Lots of people are fed up with Kela, shall we get rid of it?

    You know, that’s the difference between me and you, Twat, I don’t blind myself to problems but I actually think about solutions. And as you are part of the problem too, I’m happy to debate with you.

    – “She had to turn her position against multiculturalism because it is not embraced by population at large.”

    Population attitudes are notoriously fickle, especially in an economic downturn. You ignored that point, didn’t you. I thought you would. Point is, immigration is going down in Germany in recent years, as more Turks are leaving than entering. So why do attitudes get worse? Of course, if you have politicians telling them that immigrants are taking their jobs, raping their wives and eating their babies, I’m not surprised that feeling starts to turn against them.

    – “Multiculturalism is failed concept because it cannot successfully exist without people turning against it and it’s principles.”

    I see, so what you are saying is that if anything has a few critics it must be a failure. You dopey muppet. Is that the extent of your argumentation. Feeble!

    Also, let me make another point. In Germany, the majority of people thought it was okay to victimise the jews, send them to ‘death’ camps (most people had heard the rumours), and generally to eradicate them from German society. This was a majority view, does that make it right?

    I think that a great many people are concerned about immigration and have a negative view of its perceived negative effects. However, those negative effects are often exaggerated by politicians pushing a populist bandwagon.

    – “Which means in essence, we have to harden our position because people are fed up with our political line.”

    No, it means that extremists are succeeding in formenting anger and dislike among the populace and making scapegoats of immigrants.

    – “You forget that this has been going on longer than economical downturn.”

    I don’t forget at all. Several EU barometers have been monitoring opinion throughout the EU to immigration and attitudes were improving up until about the mid-2000s. Do your homework, numpty.

    – “Ah, and here it is again. Nazi card, the trusted tool of Multiculti Dork & Co. If you have no valid argument, scream Nazi and pretend it is an argument.”

    The Nazi is one argument among many and there was a time when people genuinely did want to know what the fuck went wrong in Germany. Clearly you don’t give a shit.

    – “Start with conflicting cultural norm of “proper” attire. It is quite well known that certain groups consider women who dress in short skirts or generally do not cover themselves as whores. How does multiculti solve this unsolvable issue?”

    Well, for a start, whether you think a short skirt is worn by a whore or not, it’s not illegal. Second, when we enter the realms of ‘proper attire’ I know that we have either returned to the Victorian age or entered the army.

    – “Immigrants want women covered, Finns want women wear whatever they want.”

    And what do the women themselves want? And by the way, there are conflicting opinions about the Burkha in the immigrant communities, as a vain, very vain attempt to try to educate you about things you know fuck all about.

    – Mark said “How can a minority dictate to a majority? Tell me one law that has changed in any European country because it was lobbied specifically by a minority group against the will of the majority?

    – “With aid of politicians. That is why you see that “far right” resurgence, Dork.”

    I see you didn’t actually answer the question – name a law, just one! Go on, get onto Google and see if you can find anything, you brainless numpty!

    – “Integration. No BS about multiculti. No political rhetoric about multiculti etc.
    Either you adjust, or you get tossed out.”

    Okay, that’s a start. Adjust to what exactly? No BS, no political rhetoric. Adjust to what? I’m an immigrant, so I’m keen to understand what you want of me.

    – “They gave up their native land, so they have to accept that they must leave that society behind as well. Many do, but far too many try to pretend they did not move to another nation with completely different cultural norms.”

    I see that you weren’t objecting to the train-loads of people. Interesting. What exactly does ‘giving up your native land’ mean? If I move from Rovaniemi to Helsinki, am I also giving up my native land? Does that mean I should be tossed back to Rovaniemi the minute someone in Helsinki decides they don’t like the look of my ‘attire’?

    – “Solution to this is simply radical reduction on immigrants permitted in through much tighter rules on who is admitted in, and faster removal of unwanted ones. Swiss have right idea when they are setting up fast and unappealable deportation.

    Sorry, your ‘this’ was not very clear. What did that refer to exactly? Gosh, is that all you want, just tighter rules on immigration and faster processing of claims. My God, after all that diatribe about culture and all that, that is all you want? Well, fuck me…waht a lot of noise you make for so little. Yes, let’s have faster processing and less immigrants let in. I’m not sure it will solve your hatred of immigrants, but hey, it’s your country (sorry to offend those that really are repulsed by Twat’s opinions).

    – “When their security and rights are paid by me, they owe me that they respect my freedoms, my culture and my language.”

    So, you want to deny immigrants the same freedoms you so love, you want them to deny their own language, even while you speak the language you love, and you want to deny them their own culture even while you are loving your own culture and you WANT TO BE RESPECTED for that? You are fucking insane.

    – “Everyone unhappy with way Finland is and want to replace it’s culture with their own, are perfectly free to leave.”

    And, I might add, also perfectly free to stay! 😀

  36. Allan

    – “Everyone unhappy with way Finland is and want to replace it’s culture with their own, are perfectly free to leave.”

    And, I might add, also perfectly free to stay!

    And whine daily about “racism” they themselves cause?

  37. Seppo

    – “Whenever one of the two languages is being spoken in our house, someone’s culture is left out in the cold, and if it happens too much, there is tension.”

    OK, Mark, let me touch the language issue then. You have a very radical view here – language is culture. Actually I share your view for the most part. Some people think language is just communication, a tool, no meaning as such. I disagree, as I believe you do too. Language is also identity and culture.

    But is it really so impossible to adopt another language? So that if your language is not spoken, you’re immediately in the cold? I wouldn’t say so. I feel warmest when I’m speaking my mother toungue Finnish – that’s like being in a sauna! But English is no cold dip into the see either. I feel I can understand the language, make my point for the most part and understand the culture around the language as well. The same for Swedish which I have also learned as a foreign language. Of course sometimes when I talk with native speakers of English, especially when there’s a bigger group where they are in majority, I do feel like an outsider. I don’t get all the jokes, all the little hints, sometimes missing totally the point. But that’s life, sometimes you can use your own language, sometimes you cannot.

    I will make a wild guess – you and your wife are mostly communicating in English. At least you two started with English. So it’s her who is or has been mostly in the “cold”?

    I believe in bilingualism, at least on individual level. Actually I believe that a person can speak several languages, all that is needed is a natural enviroment to learn and practise the language. This means that you have people around you speaking the language, you can hear it and use it daily (or at least weekly).

    I think all immigrants to Finland should learn Finnish. This doesn’t in any way imply that I think that they should give up their previous language(s), quite the opposite. I believe there’s a huge potential in people who speak several languages. But it doesn’t help much to be a native speaker of Russian if you don’t speak Finnish as well.

    Language is one of my favourite topics, especially when it comes to immigration and globalization and different identities. We can discuss this more.

  38. Mark

    Allan

    – “And whine daily about “racism” they themselves cause?”

    What is this warped idea of racism you have? And how can defending immigrants, of which I am one, be possibly responsible for the abuse that I sometimes getting walking down the street in Helsinki, for example? Allan, your comments are just asinine. Get a real job!

  39. Seppo

    By the way, I’m totally with you with the sock thing! 🙂

    Actually I believe it’s more of a gender issue. In most of your Brit-Finn couples the man is British, right?

  40. Seppo

    – I’ve met plenty of Finns who’ve travelled around parts of Finland and have commented on the peculiarities of local cultures and how they take time to adapt to, and how, in that sense, Finland doesn’t have a single homogenous culture.

    Yea it’s true, although I believe Finland is quite homogenous compared to some other countries. I’ve had colleagues at the Uni from all over Finland and I haven’t notices any remarkable cultural differences.

    Anyway, my point is that the “new” Finnish identity wouldn’t need to strive for homogenety. Quite the opposite, it should be less exclusive, more inclusive, less ethnic, more civic. I’m struggling a bit to find the English words for it but in my ideal Finland we have a strong but tolerant and varied Finnish identity that brings all the residents of this country together. It includes several subcategories, such as the Finnish-Swedish, Finnish-Russian or Finnish-British identities. The Finnish (national) identity is not a rival or a threat for minority identities but something that connects them with each other and with the majority. This might sound like a total utopia but the Finnish-Swedish example shows that if we really want it, it is possible. We all need to want it, minorities and Finns alike.

  41. Allan

    What is this warped idea of racism you have?

    Mark – it is the warped idea of racism you have, someone not sitting next to you on the bus, people not smiling on the street, things not being like at home… everything is “racism” that happens to a foreigner according to you and Enrique.

    And how can defending immigrants, of which I am one, be possibly responsible for the abuse that I sometimes getting walking down the street in Helsinki, for example?

    Unfortunately the abuse whining gits like you people deserve is aimed at the innocent immigrants as well.

    Get a real job!
    Did you look in the mirror when you said that?

  42. Mark

    Seppo

    That language is a part of culture, a very important part of culture even, is hardly ‘very radical’!

    I think only semioticians would think that ‘language’ is a series of signs and signifiers, with meanings arbitrarily attached. But that is only to shift the argument about the ‘culture of language’ onto the semantic level, where clearly ideas and thoughts are still couched in language. But hey, I’m not following the field on a daily basis.

    – “Of course sometimes when I talk with native speakers of English, especially when there’s a bigger group where they are in majority, I do feel like an outsider. I don’t get all the jokes, all the little hints, sometimes missing totally the point. But that’s life, sometimes you can use your own language, sometimes you cannot.”

    Well, that is really all of my point. You’ve experienced something of it. These are problems of ‘mulitculturism’. In fact, let’s not forget that lack of language skills is still the number one complaint about immigrants that Finns perceive to be an obstacle their integration in employment and society. So issues of language are important.

    – “I will make a wild guess – you and your wife are mostly communicating in English. At least you two started with English. So it’s her who is or has been mostly in the “cold”?”

    Not a bad guess, but you got only half of it. Yes, that is something of the situation. My wife speaks English better than I speak Finnish. We are also in the habit of speaking English, which is a very hard habit to get out of, especially for my wife.

    But the other half is my three children, who are speaking almost the entire time in Finnish. It’s their default. The oldest can speak English very well, and does. But if we are together in any way as a family, the default is always Finnish. And I do not understand everything they say. In fact, because they are not modifying it for me in the way adults might, I understand about half of it. And then, it is definitely me who is in the cold.

    But like you said, you deal with it. I don’t believe in being a victim. It’s a learning opportunity – if you see past the moment.

    My point in mentioning it is that in a multicultural setting there are problems and I recognise those. I said that to counter some stupid notion of my critics that I see multiculturalism as all sunshine. Second, I wanted to point out that the solution has to be negotiated. And a solution where only one party is happy and enjoying the exercise of their rights while the other’s are trampled on or ignored is not a solution. Not in a family and not in society.

    – “I think all immigrants to Finland should learn Finnish. This doesn’t in any way imply that I think that they should give up their previous language(s), quite the opposite. I believe there’s a huge potential in people who speak several languages”

    I totally agree. I feel the obligation to learn Finnish to the point of fluency. I’m also aware of the lack of resources. I did university courses when I first came. Now, with family commitments, I cannot do them. In work, my job is to function as an expert on the English language and though I do speak some Finnisha and read Finnish, it’s not enough to bring that fluency. I’m a family man and I don’t have a great deal of spare time, until after 9.30 at night. And by then, I’m too tired to get the books out. And then, the books are just horrible. There are serious limitations in the learning resources available. But I’m trying to do something about that.

    I think that the focus for immigrants shouldn’t be on blaming them or defaming them as groups, but helping them learn Finnish. Show me a good website where I can learn Finnish up to advanced level? It doesn’t exist. Resources are very poor. Ironically, that is especially true if you are working.

  43. Mark

    Allan: What is this warped idea of racism you have?

    – ” it is the warped idea of racism you have, someone not sitting next to you on the bus, people not smiling on the street, things not being like at home… everything is “racism” that happens to a foreigner according to you and Enrique.”

    lol. What a merry-go-round this is, eh Allan. This is the Allan that says racism doesn’t exist in Finland and dismisses official statistics as a conspiracy between the police and the politicians.

    How many fucking times do I have to ram it home to you Allan that not EVERYTHING that happens to a foreigner is racism, but ‘satana vittu ulkomaallaiset’ almost certainly is.

    – “Unfortunately the abuse whining gits like you people deserve is aimed at the innocent immigrants as well.”

    Your ignorant thugishness hits new heights, even by your low standards Allan.

  44. Seppo

    – “let’s not forget that lack of language skills is still the number one complaint about immigrants that Finns perceive to be an obstacle their integration in employment and society. So issues of language are important.”

    This is a major issue. To begin with, I believe it is understandable that Finnish is often required. You cannot get a job in England without speaking English, can you? That said, I think Finnish employers are being faaar to strict with it. According to the majority of them, you either speak Finnish absolutely fluently or you don’t at all. And you either need Finnish in your job or you don’t at all. What we need is much much more acceptance to “emerging Finnish”, people who speak already some and clearly have a good motivation and a definate goal to learn it properly. We need jobs where you can gradually use more and more Finnish, thus also learning it more and more – at work. Just like with any other skill relevant in labour market, a language is not something you just can or cannot, but a skill you can develop.

    Luckily enough, my girlfriend is in such a position right now. She was hired “without Finnish” but she uses it with some of her colleagues, like with the secretaries with whom you don’t need to talk serious business. She has been more and more attending meetings where they use only Finnish. It is hard for her, both hard to follow and hard to be in the situation where you cannot express yourself as well as you might want to. But she has developed her vocabulary amazingly during just a bit more than six months! I know a few other people with similar experiences, so it is possible, as long as we have more tolerant and forward-looking employers.

    – “My wife speaks English better than I speak Finnish. We are also in the habit of speaking English, which is a very hard habit to get out of, especially for my wife.”

    She wasn’t born with her English so she speaks it cause she learned it. The same way you can learn Finnish. But the habit is extremely hard to get out of, I know, but maybe you don’t even need to since..

    – “if we are together in any way as a family, the default is always Finnish.”

    Man, you’re situation is ideal! Could there be any better environment for learning a language than that? It just jumps in your lap, all you need to do is catch it. The best way to learn a language is exactly this – hearing, listening, seeing it from native speakers. And bit by bit, starting to use it yourself. You don’t necessarily need grammar books or evening courses or websites. Whenever there is something structural you don’t get, your wife can explane it to you. The vocabulary and the linguistic culture you have right there, in your own home.

    I understand people who haven’t learned Finnish cause they “haven’t had the chance”. Even though this sounds funny, we do live in Finland and the majority is Finnish-speaking, I understand it in a situation where you work long days in an English-speaking workplace and don’t have anyone to practise with during freetime. This should not be the case with you.

    Lastly, people learning Finnish tend to have an idea that they need to know the grammar entirely before they can order a pizza in Finnish. That is, they focus on the theoretical side, possibly learning to read the language, when they should pay much more attention to practising it, learning to understand and speak. I have an English-speaking friend who is very talented and who has spent hours and days in the library reading Finnish grammar. We can have discussions about some grammatical specialities but we don’t speak Finnish. Maybe it’s partly my fault, I should be pushing it more, trying to use Finnish with him. But is feels uncomfortable since he is clearly avoiding it a bit. Well, at least he orders his pizzas in Finnish.

  45. Allan

    How many fucking times do I have to ram it home to you Allan that not EVERYTHING that happens to a foreigner is racism,

    Tell that to Enrique and all the other whining ‘satana vittu ulkomaallaiset’ and advice them to put a lid on it.

  46. Mark

    Seppo

    – “Man, you’re situation is ideal!”

    🙂 🙂

    – “Could there be any better environment for learning a language than that? It just jumps in your lap, all you need to do is catch it.”

    Yes and no, Seppo. My Finnish suffers a little bit like my Welsh, which was my father’s first language and which I spoke a bit up until the age of twelve, before moving away from Wales: meaning that I remember the childhood vocabulary and phrases. But yes, I do welcome it.

    – “You don’t necessarily need grammar books or evening courses or websites. Whenever there is something structural you don’t get, your wife can explane it to you. The vocabulary and the linguistic culture you have right there, in your own home.”

    Well, to advance your language you need comprehensible input. That means finding out what people have said when you don’t understand. Now don’t get me wrong, people are usually helpful in translating, but if you are asking constantly, you see the visible annoyance. My kids mostly don’t want to repeat something, so I ask, what did you say, and I get ‘nothing’. I tell them off for this, gently, because it clearly wasn’t nothing. So my wife does most of it, and it does get tiring for her, so I let a lot of stuff go by. The other thing is that you learn to key off different things in the language. I key off emotions and body language much more than I used to in the UK. I can hear these things in people’s voices even if I don’t know the exact thing being said. I almost always get the ‘gist’ of something. It’s a bit like seeing the nouns and verbs, but not seeing any of the function words. Or: It see noun verb, not see function word.

    – “And bit by bit, starting to use it yourself. You don’t necessarily need grammar books or evening courses or websites.”

    Well, yes. You don’t need grammar books alone. And that is one limitation of Finnish courses, which focus almost all of them heavily on grammar. But there are so many elements of grammar, which you do need to figure out what’s being said and they can be confusing. Such as keskudessaan, which I came across recently. It’s really hard to decide if that is like ‘talo-ssa’ or ‘taloon’ or some mixture or what. I gather it’s ‘among themselves’ or something. But then again, I do not know if this is a noun or what it is or how it might be used. There are so many different uses to the case endings, so that even when you know them, you just cannot trust what meaning is being used even when you hear them. You are constantly floating on a sea of uncertainty with Finnish.

    – “Whenever there is something structural you don’t get, your wife can explane it to you.”

    Nope, nope, nope. The worst person to ask about grammar is a native! Same applies to English, unless you are linguistically trained, people have very little clue about the technicalities of the language they speak.

    I like your enthusiasm Seppo, and there are opportunities for sure. But when I speak Finnish, my kids hate it. I mean, they really don’t like it. It seems to aggravate something really deep inside them. So I actually cannot practice production skills with them, and so it’s down speaking with my wife. And then it’s back to bad habits. 🙂

    One immigrant I met from Nigeria spoke very good Finnish. Then I met his partner and immediately I could see why. She spoke Finnish to me, slowly, simple phrases, wouldn’t accept if I spoke only English, helped correct my Finnish, smiled a lot and generally seemed to make it her mission to make every moment a step from my language to her language. She also made an effort to name everyday things for me, like a walking dictionary, Finnish to English etc. Her energy for it astounded me. I have to admit to being just a little bit jealous.

  47. Mark

    Allan

    – “Tell that to Enrique and all the other whining ‘satana vittu ulkomaallaiset’ and advice them to put a lid on it.”

    You know, there is nothing to keep you here in this blog where these people are ‘whining’ about racism. So, why do YOU hang around here, a blog about migrant issues and racism, complaining about us?

    Or is it just that. As a thug, you feel you have the right to come here and tell us to ‘put a lid on it’? Is that basically your agenda?

    AND still you have not told me what your qualifications are for talking about migrants. I mean, I can understand if you have a few opinions, but you have a lot and your are setting yourself up as an expert – so lets have it. What do you bring to the table, Allan? This is a pissing contest isn’t it, so show me what you’ve got, pencil dick?

  48. Seppo

    Mark

    “Man, you’re situation is ideal!”

    Woops, a bit of a mistake there, apparently I wrote “you’re” instead of “your”. They’re still pronounced basically the same, /jor/, but written differentelly – does it make sense or not? Well, it does kind of since they are build up from different elements and just happen to sound the same. Another one is “there”, which is almost the same as “their”, which is almost the same as “they’re”. So English isn’t either always so simple, especially writing it since it doesn’t always follow the pronouniciation like it does in Finnish 🙂

    Anyway.

    – “to advance your language you need comprehensible input”

    Yes, and I also understand the problems of asking for translation. I don’t know, from my own experience you can also learn to understand words without having them directly translated to you. Like if there is a sentence of four words, out of which you get three, you can guess what the third one means. I believe you are not this far yet – there are rarely this kind of sentences where you miss only a word but otherwise get the point. Before that it is hard, I admit. But after that it can be suprisingly easy. The more words you know the easier it is to learn more.

    – “keskuudessaan, which I came across recently.”

    I think you are being way too analytical. Yes, it means ‘among themselves’ and so far you should just take it as it is. It is keskuude-ssa-an, where ‘-an’ is a possesive suffix. But it is not necessary to know this. Most Finns don’t. For example I just realised that the word ‘yhdessä’ is actually the inessive of the word ‘yksi’. This again you don’t need to know, just take the word ‘yhdessä’ as such and memorize its meaning separately. When you learn the language better you will automatically start noticing this king of inner logic in certain words. Of course seeing the logic might help in the memorizing process but sometimes it’s just making things more complicated than they need to be.

    Oppilaat kilpailivat keskuudessaan. The pupils were competing among themselves.

    I believe I have been a better teacher for my girlfriend than your wife for you since I’ve studied a bit of linguistics and due to her I got more interested how Finnish works and was able to explane things to her. Some explanations I just came up with but I guess they anyway helped her.

    What the Nigerian’s partner does is great. Somehow most Finns married to foreigners simply do not want to or do not know how to do this. It’s stupid and such a waste of opportunity. “slowly, simple phrases” is a good way to begin. There is a risk here, too. I have noticed sometimes talking too simply and too clearly and too “officially” (kirjakieli) to my girlfriend and she has pointed out that. She said she understands me but doesn’t get anything out of the conversation between me and my friends. Since it is usually the spoken language (puhekieli) that foreigners mostly struggle with, also thanks to the focus only on grammar and kirjakieli on the Finnish lessons, people shouldn’t be afraid of talking “real Finnish”, their everyday language to foreigners. When it comes to integration, this is the variety you most of all need to learn.

  49. Mark

    Seppo

    – “Since it is usually the spoken language (puhekieli) that foreigners mostly struggle with, also thanks to the focus only on grammar and kirjakieli on the Finnish lessons, people shouldn’t be afraid of talking “real Finnish”, their everyday language to foreigners. When it comes to integration, this is the variety you most of all need to learn.”

    I absolutely agree. The single biggest problem in learning Finnish from a course or textbooks. It’s not what you hear people actually saying.

    Another thing about analysing the language. We tend to learn a language as adults by integrating it with what we already know. That means, for me as a linguist, understanding how the grammar works. But it’s more than that too. When you are guessing, you see yksi and yhdessa and actually you cannot see in the beginning that they are even related words. Maybe Finns don’t see it either, but then they are not trying to guess half the language either. 🙂

    The you’re/your thing and the ‘they’re/their’ thing are all too common. For me, I know exactly which one belongs where. When I first studied spellings as a kid, I never understood how people could confuse them. But now, I realise the brain simply grabs anything that fits the shape, and actually inserts the wrong word when consciously, we know exactly what word belongs in that sentence. My writing is terrible. I type nearly 100 words a minute and don’t bother to re-read much of what I type in these comments until maybe later, and then I’m horrified at the mistakes. 🙂 I also notice I’m making mistakes that come only from having read so much ‘Finglish’. It’s not that I think that’s how stuff should be written, but rather, my brain, after having seen so much of it, simply makes a subconscious decision that this is okay! That’ s how language works after all, it’s a large part subconscious.

    Thanks for the example: Oppilaat kilpailivat keskuudessaan. It was really helpful and now the meaning makes complete sense.

  50. Allan

    Mark, I just give feedback, otherwise you would think that someone actually agrees with your incitement of racist hatered against the Finnish people.

    • Enrique

      Allan, “incitement of racist hatred against FInnish people?” Come on…

  51. Mark

    Allan

    – “Mark, I just give feedback, otherwise you would think that someone actually agrees with your incitement of racist hatered against the Finnish people.”

    Ah, bless you! You are thinking of me. That’s very sweet. I love Finns, by the way, on the whole. Some I don’t like, but it’s definitely not cos their Finnish. It’s just cos they’re arseholes. My thinking is that they are much like the arseholes I might meet in the UK, so it’s really not about nationality. But hey, feel free to twist my words and my actual beliefs into something that you can call racism against Finns.

    So, let’s see Allan, next challenge. Do you like Somali people? I mean, generally speaking. Do you know any? If you don’t, what do you base your opinion on?

  52. Allan

    This is what this is Enrique, nothing more and nothing less. If I wrote this kind of blog about Jews or Somalians, Eva Biaudets office would be having multiple orgasms. You hate Finland and that is fine, I would rather you moved somewhere you would not feel so inferior rather than denigrate a place I happen to love.

    • Enrique

      –You hate Finland and that is fine, I would rather you moved somewhere you would not feel so inferior rather than denigrate a place I happen to love.

      Thank you for poiting out another weapon of anti-immigration groups: I hate Finland. But what you are trying to say or hope is that I would hate Finland. Looking at your prejudice of other cultural groups and what Finland means to you, I would say that you are (a) ignorant about the values of this country and (b) therefore lost.

      1. Natives (Euroindians) are being conquered by conquistadores (immigrants);
      2. Victims of racism are racists;
      3. Multiculturalism is fine on paper but, like communism, does not work.
      4. People who speak out against prejudice hate Finland.

  53. Seppo

    Mark

    – “We tend to learn a language as adults by integrating it with what we already know. That means, for me as a linguist, understanding how the grammar works.”

    Yes, maybe it was stupid for me to say just you should be less analytical. When I would see a new word like keskuudessaan, of course I would try to analyze it! One sometimes forgets how differently children and adults learn languages. Some adults are able to do it the child-way: just hearing and listening and then grabbing something and starting immediately to use it. Most are not. And rarely is there a chance for an adult to start like that, just trying everything you manage to grab, sometimes without knowing what it actually means. At least it will make you look stupid which some people are not willing to take.

    I believe many foreigners in Finland avoid speaking Finnish just because of this – they don’t want to look stupid, or less smart, and they don’t want to be in an inferior position in which you necessarily are if you are speaking a foreign language and other people around you their native. But this is unavoidable, a completely unavoidable stage in language learning. And this is something I have trouble understanding, people being afraid of practising a language because they are so afraid of making a stupid mistake. I’ve been there, I’ve done that, it wasn’t always fun (even thought it might have been for those who heard my funny mistakes), but there’s no other way round.

  54. Seppo

    Allan

    There is no way, absolutely no way, that arguing like you do makes Finland a better place. Not for the immigrants but not for me and not for you either.

    As a member of the same nation as you I’m kindly asking you to think: what kind of consequences the statements you’re making have? Do they contribute to immigrant integration? Do they contribute to a better feeling, better atmosphere among different people in this society? Most importantly, do they contribute to a better Finland?

    Please answer on your own behalf, not on the behalf of Enrique or someone else.

    • Enrique

      Seppo we are not here to score brownie points. Let me ask you this question: How can you begin to discuss the problems of immigrants when a large portion of Finns think that racism does not exist?

  55. Allan

    Do you like Somali people?

    Any reason to? I did not dislike them either any more or less than any other ungrateful whining foreigners. As you say people can be nice or arseholes, so it’s really not about nationality.

  56. Allan

    Seppo – you can suck up to these foreigners and feel yourself inferior all you want, but I am fed up – been fed up since I remember of always people being so damn low self esteemed and apologetic. This blog is spreading slanderous and spiteful lies about my country and my countrymen, so someone has to defend them. There are too many people like you without a scrotum in the country these days.

    • Enrique

      –This blog is spreading slanderous and spiteful lies about my country and my countrymen, so someone has to defend them.

      Defend who? The Hakkarainens of Finland? One of the things that worries me about people like you and some PS is that you are constantly trying to pick a fight with your suspicion and provocative style. Now is that a good way to debate? I don’t think so.

  57. Seppo

    Allan

    Hah, you can go through my comments, let me know if there’s something apologetic there. Low self esteem, not here, I’m extremely proud and happy to be me and to be a Finn.

    If there are “lies” or misunderstandings about Finland in here or somewhere else, I’m quite eager to correct them.

    Still, just think: are you contributing to a better Finland? I know I am.

  58. Allan

    Well I am not writing about “racism” having a skin color fixation inventing things as I go along so perhaps it is I am contributing very little. I was brought up not to pay attention to racial attributes, so racism for me is very definite.

  59. Mark

    Allan

    I just had a sauna with a 75 year old Finn, from Kuhmoinen. A retired teacher, whose father was a house-builder. He asked me whether I have followed the politics and the stuff about PS. I said yes. He looked me hard in the eyes and said – they are wrong.

    Not a lot of detail, I know, but it counts for something coming from him.

    I’ll get back to your comments later.

  60. Mark

    Mark asked: Do you like Somali people?

    Allan responsed: Any reason to?

    Stunning response as ever, Allan. And you say it’s not about nationality.

    Perhaps you should read Maps, by Nuruddin Farah. Come back to me when you’ve read it. He’s a Somali writer, by the way.

    – “As you say people CAN be nice or arseholes, so it ‘s really Not about Nationality.”

    Gosh, we actually agree about something. Maybe you’ll be consistent in this belief and true to your upbringing – “I was brought up not to pay attention to racial attributes”. Maybe, just maybe when you talk about crime, or people who whine, you won’t identify them as Somali, or Afghan or just ‘foreigners’.

  61. Mark

    Allan

    – “This is what this is Enrique, nothing more and nothing less. If I wrote this kind of blog about Jews or Somalians, Eva Biaudets Office Would be having ” multiple orgasms. You hate Finland and That Is fine, I would Rather you Moved somewhere you Would Not Feel So inferior Rather Than denigrate a place I happen to love.”

    It’s nice that you love Finland. You don’t have a monopoly on patriotism, though, just for the record. There are plenty of people who support cultural pluralism in Finland who also love their country. Or are you going to do a Michelle Bachmann and describe support of multiculturalism as ‘un-Finnish’?

    But this is the heart of your mistake Allan. You take a discussion about racism in Finland and see it as an attack on Finns. That’s also a convenient way of absolviing yourself of individual responsibility for your stance, as you are just sticking up for other Finns. Well don’t be surprised when other Finns, like Seppo, don’t stand up for you. And it’s got fuck all to do with scrotums, you scrotum. But, hey, that’s typical masculist shit, talk about your opponents being faggots and cowards. It’s so funny how you talk about respect and don’t actually show any, even for your fellow Finns.

    It’s so funny how you see our attacks as against a nation, when they are not, they are an attack on views held by some people who are also Finns, while you quite explicitly talk about ethnic groups as having various characteristics, all of them negative. You are of course a hypocrite, Allan. You do not practice what you preach.

    If I apply your own standards that you purport to live by, you are shown to be an even bigger hypocrite. You are a GUEST on this blog. You visit this blog knowing what values it promotes, and yet you show absolutely no respect for its owner or the people here who also support those values. So tell me, how can you possibly ask foreigners to follow your rules when you don’t even follow them yourself?

  62. Seppo

    – “we are not here to score brownie points. Let me ask you this question: How can you begin to discuss the problems of immigrants when a large portion of Finns think that racism does not exist?”

    Easily. Just ignore them. Finnish people thinking there is no racism are a very small minority and among the people making decisions they don’t practically exist. They are active online, for sure, but one shouldn’t make too big conclusions about that.

    I don’t get your point. Before we can start discussing other issues having to do with immigration we have to make sure that every single Finn realises that there is racism in Finland?

    As a matter of fact, I believe you and some other people here in this blog are stuck with this racism, not being able to pay attention to other things regarding immigrants and minorities. How do you think we could get people like Allan to admit that there is racism in Finland? We cannot. That’s why we cannot get stuck with that.

    And what on earth do you mean by scoring brownie points?

    I have a feeling that you have quite a sceptic attitude towards me, even a scornful one. (Scornful, not sure if the right word, had to check it from dictionary, in Finnish I would say väheksyvä). For the past two days I’ve written quite a lot here so you know where I stand. I have also read your posts and comments. The way I see it is that we are standing on the same side, working for a more tolerant, open and inclusive Finland.

    Feel free to criticize me if you want to. Somehow I just get the feeling now I’m attacked from both sides..

    • Enrique

      –As a matter of fact, I believe you and some other people here in this blog are stuck with this racism, not being able to pay attention to other things regarding immigrants and minorities.

      Seppo, I think it is a matter of perspective and experience. I grew up in the United States where there was a lot of racism in the 1960s. By the 1970s it was pretty well definied. Do you and I have different thresholds on what we allow to be called racism? Mine is lower and yours is higher?

      Just like the country, racism has been a big topic on Migrant Tales as well. We are mirroring that.

    • Enrique

      –I have a feeling that you have quite a sceptic attitude towards me, even a scornful one.

      Seppo I try not to have a scornful attitude towards anyone. On Migrant Tales we allow a wide range of opinions. But let me make this clear to you: I am happy that you are able to debate with us this topic.

  63. Seppo

    – “Do you and I have different thresholds on what we allow to be called racism? Mine is lower and yours is higher?”

    I’m not sure. I haven’t really discussed racism here that much so far. I have a pretty clear standpoint: There is a lot of racism in Finland and all of it is sickening. As a member of this nation I feel very sorry, ashamed and extremely disappointed about this fact.

    Our interpretations might still differ of course since I have basically never been on the receiving side of racism where as you have probably had your share.

  64. Seppo

    Allan and all other racism-deniers

    In today’s Hesari, on the mielipide pages, there are a few classic examples of Finnish racism. People being physically attacked because of their origin.

  65. Mary Mekko

    I remember sitting waiting for the Metro at Roihuvuori Station in Helsinki. Several black African males and one Arabic male were standing together, waiting, speaking English. I would presume that almost everyone on that platform could understand some English. They were pretty loud, and their conversation was full of swear words about Finnish women, calling them “whores” and all that. Not one Finnish man stood up to fight them, not one Finnish woman reacted, and this dead passivity shocked me more than any low-down male 3rd world view of women. I decided to be a pro-active multikulti rep from Kalifornia, and asked them loudly to stop swearing so loudly, and keep their nasty comments about women to themselves. NO FINN REACTED. The dark-skinned just told me (as in San Francisco): “Fuck off, white bitch!” Well, welcome to the real world, you poor Finns, esp. you women, welcome to U.S. reality!

  66. Mary Mekko

    In 1989 I went, a white female from California (actually, a Celt) for a coffee next to the Central Station, in that famous cafe. Every Sunday afternoon, a large table of minority (darker) males gather, men from Southern EUrope, North Africa, black Africa and South America, who’ve married Finnish women, settled down and had kids. They communicated through English, so I could overhear and understand them. They bitched and moaned about their loss of manhood in the horrible family atmosphere of modern feministic Finland. They rued the day they got inside a Finnish woman and had their first biracial child, getting them stuck in a cold, wet, anti-male country. They weren’t accepted back in their own families, they couldn’t find work, and their Finnish wives weren’t interested in them, let them do whatever, while they took new boyfriends. These men were very angry and upset about their mistakes, about their stupidity in getting tempted by white skin and leaving their home male-dominated societies. They were indeed the losers, they felt, even if they got higher salaries than by staying in Greece, Turkey, Tunesia, Algeria,e tc. etc. I listened in amazement at their rage against “modern Finnish society” where the women rule the roost, call all the shots, and don’t let their husbands be in charge. They were genuinely, truly depressed! I almost started feeling sorry for them. Then I asked, “Why don’t you just leave if it’s so cold, wet and lonely, so alien, somiserable with your wife?” Well, it’s obvious, they couldn’t leave their kids, nor could they remove them from Finland, as many wanted to do, and as many could have done in male-decision countries. So they were approaching or in middle age, and were stuck, stuck, stuck. They bitched weekly together. Are they still there, I wonder? Are they all divorced and disappeared at last? If they did stick it out and assimilate, I wonder if they couldn’t be role models for the new male-dominated societal immigrants, who find “feministic Finland” so hard to handle.

  67. Allan

    Seppo, there is no “Enriques racism” in Finland. Do not confuse real actual racism with some made-up illusions.

    And there were more examples of foreigners committing crimes, which Enrique does not pay any attention to, as its something irrelevant like “racism” that is his problem.

    Racism exists, and it is racism against Finns, and I am ashamed you defend this attack.

    • Enrique

      –Racism exists, and it is racism against Finns, and I am ashamed you defend this attack.

      Your accusation that I am a racist is as absurd as the PS’ statement against racism and for so-called positive discrimination.

  68. Allan

    Mark describe support of multiculturalism as ‘un-Finnish’?

    What else would it be, like communism (the Komintern type of the 1920’s) it is an ideology aimed to destroy nation-states.

    MaryMekko They bitched and moaned about their loss of manhood in the horrible family atmosphere of modern feministic Finland.

    No, really, I thout it was because of racism.

    • Enrique

      Allan, do you want Mary Meko’s email? Maybe you could write on her blog. I am certain the both of you have a lot in common.

  69. Seppo

    – “Racism exists, and it is racism against Finns”

    So no racism against non-Finns in Finland? Of course there is prejudism against Finns among the immigrant population which sometimes goes so far that it is actually racism. There are good and bad people in all groups. But I belive it is both ways, Finns can also be racist. And since Finns are in the majority, the minorities end up being on the receiving side more often. In any case, the less racism, the better – can you disagree with this?

  70. Allan

    One of the things that worries me about people like you and some PS is that you are constantly trying to pick a fight with your suspicion and provocative style.

    You start by writing slanderous lies about the country first. It is your own style that I am writing in so you can understand how offensive your insults are.

  71. Allan

    Mark Mark asked: Do you like Somali people?

    Allan responsed: Any reason to?

    Stunning response as ever, Allan. And you say it’s not about nationality.

    Well you surely worship them and want to be their slave, evidently.

    Nuruddin Farah? You should read Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Caged Virgin

  72. Allan

    Seppo: Of course there is prejudism against Finns among the immigrant population which sometimes goes so far that it is actually racism.

    That is exactly what Enrique is trying to achieve with his hate speech, or has already along with your kind of sycophants. Always there is a foreigner anything happens it is “racism” be it from having to pay a bus ticket and someone not sitting next to him, its “racism”. So that is why there is no racism in Finland, as it is all imagined. Boy called wolf one time too many.

  73. Allan

    Allan, do you want Mary Meko’s email? Maybe you could write on her blog. I am certain the both of you have a lot in common.

    That we are both middle-aged bearded men? I think you two have more in common as you both share the American education and intelligence 😆

  74. Allan

    Your accusation that I am a racist is as absurd

    Enrique, is it me or you who differentiates people by their skin color?

  75. Hmmm

    “Seppo: Of course there is prejudism against Finns among the immigrant population which sometimes goes so far that it is actually racism.

    That is exactly what Enrique is trying to achieve with his hate speech”

    While I don’t agree that Enrique is trying to achieve this, it certainly is worth considering if this might be one of the results. Repeated biased reporting can result in unexpected results. Many have accused e.g. Halla-aho of using such tactics. Is it not possible that similar reactions can occur on the “opposite side”?

    • Enrique

      I have been accused of many things, Hmmm, but this was is really interesting. “Repeated biased reporting can result in unexpected results.”

      You should know that this is a blog and it has an “editorial line” on issues like prejudice and exclusion of minorities. Contrary to those sites you mention, there is only the same bunch of people rambling about the same things. At least on Migrant Tales we have a wide variety of views and they get expressed on this blog. I believe it is already a pretty significant thing that we can debate these matters openly. Why do I write this blog? Because Finland is my home and because it is my civic duty to protect it from harmful matters like far-right nationalism, racism and exclusion of minorities.

  76. Allan

    It has an “editorial line” of making up and distorting facts. Why do you write this blog indeed? Is it you have an inferiority complex from the 70’s not being as intelligent nor educated as the Finns you came to live with, so you wish to make excuses why you never had any success at the time? It was because everyone was racist and had nothing to do with yourself?

    • Enrique

      Allan, your words are turning into personal attacks and that is something I will not tolerate here. If you disagree with what I write that is your right, but to hit punches below the belt is unacceptable.

  77. Hmmm

    Of course blogs can have editorial lines and open debate is definitely a positive thing. My post was not a directed attack at the blog or you, I just thought that the point of view I quoted is worth further consideration. Repeated one sided (or biased) reporting has been used deliberately in the history, with devastating effects. If a one sided message is constantly repeated the message is reinforced… and potentially distorted in the minds of some individuals.

  78. Mark

    Hmm

    Just for the record, I don’t normally write about racism. This is not a campaign for me and I follow no agenda. I noted the PS political stance and the result and also many discussions that took place on Facebook afterwards, mostly among Finns rather than immigrants. However, I have worked in the past to help immigrants in London and so I have some hands on experience of the difficulties, including elements of prejudice.

    What I first started reading the blog, I thought that Enrique was fighting very hard to just have a very simple idea accepted – that racism exists in Finland, and that it’s now getting legitimacy from the kind of political tactics adopted by PS through the election. Personally, I don’t find that statement controversial in the slightest. It seemed absolutely obvious that that is the result of political campaigning on the back of an anti-immigration policy (ignoring their other policies, including anti-EU). The reason is simple – one person having a racist or xenophobic or just very negative view of immigration and immigrants might not lead them to commit racist acts. But when that person thinks that the majority of other Finns think the same way, there is a very real danger that the situation on the ground can become much worse. In other words, increased inter-racial tension.

    For the record, racism works both ways. It can be found in minorities as well as majorities. And no amount of excuses about the poverty or depravation of minorities is really a justification. Two wrongs never made a right. But if people think that they are somehow equal in the big picture, they are sadly misguided. Racism on the part of the majority group, even if it’s by a small part of the majority, means that the social prospects of the minority group are seriously affected. In Finland, people who are qualified and even have previous experience still find it statistically much more difficult to find work in Finland if they are from a non-Finn ethnic background and especially if they are from certain backgrounds.

    This is where we come to positive discrimination. It’s a blunt instrument, that is absolutely true, but to cry fairness in that case, and be absolute silent about the conditions that make it even a possibility, the discrimination against minorities, is morally bankrupt. We cannot say that minorities have to suffer our racism, and then when we do something positive about it, we say, suddenly, that racism is important and it’s racism against us, or discrimination against us. If the populace won’t move towards a more tolerant attitude in a racially plural society, then steps have to be taken. They are not pretty. But then, they are a damn site more pretty than the racism that makes them necessary. And the idea of positive discrimination is not to force employers to take on less qualified staff. It is to force a change in the demographic of the workforce.

    And really, politicians that contemplate these kinds of changes are not ‘fighting the people’. The people want a fair society. They also want to see immigrants integrated and especially they want to see the economically active. If all other attempts to help them into the labour force are shown to have failed, then positive discrimination is one of last methods they have to realise goals that most of us at least verbally say that we agree with. It’s like giving people a foul-tasting medicine in order to cure them.

    I have never seen Enrique calling Finns as a nation racist or suggesting that there is something about being Finnish that makes them a racist. That is quite different to some of the comments I’ve seen coming from the other side, who seem quite happy to suggest that there is something about being African, or Somalian or Afghan that makes you a certain way.

    It’s also true that people who see race are not necessarily racist. That is a very convenient and frankly stupid argument of people supporting racism in implicity terms. Race does exist, the question was always whether it meant anything – and more to the point, whether people would be treated differently because of it (ignoring positive discrimination for the moment). People like Enrique talk about race because they are talking about discrimination based on race. He is not, from what I can see, talking about Finns as a race, and he is not accusing Finns as a race of being racist. But to go from that saying there is no racism in Finland is really not worth a reply. There are people here who will never be convinced Finland or Finns in general should feel any responsibility as a nation for the widespread racism that is here. I have some sympathy with this feeling, but really, it’s time to grow up and get over it.

    The same issue applies to men and violence. When women talk about men as violent, then non-violent men take offence, because we are all being made to feel responsible. But the problem has been the silent acceptance of the majority. That is why it needs men to come out and condemn other men – not out of guilt, but as part of changing what is seen as ‘acceptable’. I’ve heard it myself ‘just give her a smack, and she’ll be alright’. And it’s so similar in that those that don’t want to hear the painful truth about men’s violence against women almost always try and turn it around by talking about women’s violence against men, to make it somehow equal. The same with race, as if showing racism on the part of the minority excuses any of it. And as I’ve pointed out, the consequences of racism on the part of the majority are so much worse for the minority than racism the other way. I’m talking mostly about institutional racism now, not individual racism. In other words, the racism of people with real power – the power to give jobs, or to protect rights and enforce anti-discrimination legislation.

    Enrique has been saying quite simple things but has been getting a very vociferous, often nasty response. The respect that some Finns expect, it seems, does not extend to immigrants who happen to have a different view to Finns. It seems that some Finns want us immigrants to just shut up, especially if it is saying something about Finns. But really, the only reason that ‘Finns’ come into this discussion is because we are in Finland. Racism is a personal issue and no nation is responsible. But it’s also no big deal to condemn racism, or it shouldn’t be. An old saying in English – if the hat fits, wear it. But equally, if the hat doesn’t fit, don’t wear it. If you are not racist, then why would you want to defend people who are. Just come out and condemn it, on all sides. I condemn racism on the part of blacks, whites, Europeans, non-Europeans. It’s not right and it does happen across all boundaries and groups. But let’s not fall short by saying, they are racist so we can be racist too, because that is how it sounds to me.

    As for defamation of minorities, the other part of racism, it is quite clear to me that if you want, you will always find some dirt to throw. There might even be more dirt than you would expect to find compared to the majority group. But to use that dirt to smear an entire group, and then just for political ends, to justify an anti-immigration stance, is not acceptable in my eyes. It also seems that even if there was no dirt, there would still be reasons to not accept immigrants. It sounds like excuses, one after another, to justify an anti-immigration stance. And the most obvious reason for those excuses, that people find foreigners, especially in numbers of more than a couple, threatening.

    There has been a lot of extremism expressed on this blog, but from where I stand, I don’t think it is coming from Enrique or his supporters. They are saying really simple things, like racism exists in Finland, and getting absolutey roasted because of it. I wonder why?

    • Enrique

      Thank you Mark for making some good points concerning Migrant Tales.

      Because some of us (immigrants and Finns) feel that ongoing debate on Finland’s cultural diversity is one sided and hijacked by groups like the most vociferous anti-immigration groups like the PS, Migrant Tales aims to be a counter voice. We believe that many of the arguments used by people like Jussi Halla-aho, Hommaforum and others have a sinister ethnic-political aim: to keep Finland white and those few white immigrants that live here on a short leash. Moreover, the rise of anti-EU, anti-immigration and anti-Muslim political parties is a lamentable European trend that is being fuelled by the same hatred that led to mass war in the last century. This has, however, to be seen from a twenty-first century context.

      These groups have largely been able to roam Finnish public opinion nearly unchallenged because they weren’t taken seriously and because their sinister message even appealed in some of us to our own racism and doubts. Since they are vehemently against cultural diversity (multiculturalism) they naturally deny that racism is a big problem in Finland. Racism is one of the weapons they use against minorities. By denying racism they are also rejecting our cultural diversity.

      When Migrant Tales started in May 2007 and began to get a larger audience in 2008, one of the main arguments of those that attacked this blog was that racism is a minor problem in Finland.

      The April election and the rise of the PS, the concern expressed even by political figures like President Tarja Halonen over the rise of racism in Finland, are but a few solid examples that we are faced with a big social ill that will only grow thanks to our apathy and silence. If we don’t act to we will not only destroy our present society by creating divisions and encouraging hatred of other groups, but shatter to pieces our good name abroad.

      To accuse anyone of us of hating and being racists against ALL Finns is not only unfair but absurd. I personally write this blog because Finland is my home, my children’s home and that of future generations.

      As long as Timo Soini continues to give political protection and refuge to xenophobic politicians that have a racist agenda and are hostile to minorities in this country, the PS can never aspire to be a “normal” and “credible” party in the eyes of the majority of Finns. It will be, as today, a menace to our basic civil rights.

  79. Boston

    the rise of anti-EU, anti-immigration and anti-Muslim political parties is a lamentable European trend that is being fuelled by the same hatred that led to mass war in the last century

    What do you think is that reason for this rise in hatred? Surely it is a result of increasing immigration into the EU. In other words, the cause that you are supporting is what is driving the rise in hatred and could even lead to violence in time. Should you not stand up for peace and try to avoid increasing conflict i.e. look at ways to reduce immigration. It would be wonderful if everyone could live side-by-side accepting each other, but unfortunately this is the real world. The last 30 years have shown up the theory that greater exposure to foreign cultures will make people more tolerant.

    • Enrique

      Hi Boston and welcome to Migrant Tales. Thank you for sharing some of your time with us.

      –What do you think is that reason for this rise in hatred?

      There is a global recession that began in September 2008 that has fuelled this type of hatred. You cannot claim that the rise of xenophobia in Finland is attributable to “increasing immigration.” Immigrants accounted in 2010 for 2.9% of the total population of Finland.

      Boston, you have a funny logic: lower immigration so we can lower racism. Good luck!

  80. Klay_Immigrant

    Has the DPP made Denmark a worse place to live in and ruined their reputation by enforcing the tighest immigration policies in Europe over the last 10 years? Well according to two separate surveys one called the Satisfaction with Life Index and another by researchers at the Gallup World Poll, Denmark was ranked 1st on both as the happiest country in the world. Finland was 6th and 2nd respectively. So you could say that if anything DPP has made Denmark a better place according to the people who actually live in Denmark. With the venom directed as parties such as the DPP and PS one would think they started a civil war or targeted suicide bombers on the minority. But wait there is civil unrest across the whole Arab world and suicide bombers are always Muslim yet Right wing politicians are the enemy. Makes sense!

    • Enrique

      Klay, some will disagree that Denmark is a better place because of the DPP. Think about the harm it has done to its image, created rifts between Danes and immigrants, and excluded people. Trade is a two-way process and it is not like in the colonial period when it was one way.

      Another matter you must take into account that Finland is NOT a Denmark or Holland, which used to be colonial powers. That explains why Finns are rising up and outraged by the racism that has opened up in Finland like a festering wound by the PS. To be fair, not all PS are xenophobic but many unfortunatly are. One of the party’s reason for being (values) is based on xenophobia of the outside world.

  81. Allan

    Mark

    I have never seen Enrique calling Finns as a nation racist or suggesting that there is something about being Finnish that makes them a racist

    Read further. Theis blog is nothing but fill of slander and defamation, never mind the invented facts.

    There are people here who will never be convinced Finland or Finns in general should feel any responsibility as a nation for the widespread racism that is here.

    You just contradicted yourself there.

    The same issue applies to men and violence. When women talk about men as violent, then non-violent men take offence, because we are all being made to feel responsible. But the problem has been the silent acceptance of the majority. That is why it needs men to come out and condemn other men – not out of guilt, but as part of changing what is seen as ‘acceptable’.

    OK, lets address that with the editorial policy of this blog: So, have you stopped beating up your wife?

    It seems that some Finns want us immigrants to just shut up, especially if it is saying something about Finns.
    Well we don’t come to their country to insult their, so what makes them get the right to come to our country and insult us? If they came from a society that made their country unbearable to live in, so why do you expect us to listen to their advice to change Finland into something worse than it already is?

    I think you and I are more or less in the same opinion on things. However would rather see you writing a sensible and impartial blog so there would be something worthwhile to read, instead of this vitriolic anti-finitic defamation along with its verafennophobia and the wish to destroy the Finnish culture and society.

    • Enrique

      –Read further. Theis blog is nothing but fill of slander and defamation, never mind the invented facts.

      Please show this in text where I have used “slander and defamation” and “invented facts.” Allan, this is not Hommaforum so you are going to have to base your accusations on facts.

  82. Allan

    Because some of us (immigrants and Finns) feel that ongoing debate on Finland’s cultural diversity is one sided and hijacked by groups like the most vociferous anti-immigration groups like the PS, Migrant Tales aims to be a counter voice.

    Homma-forum and halla-aho and PS rose because there was no debate. Actually, Homma-forum was established to oppose you and your kind of multicultural propaganda chutes. Force-feeding multiculturalism and the political nomenklatura moving towards uncontested immigration was the reason to rise up – and it seems something has worked as you are seemingly agitated.

    We believe that many of the arguments used by people like Jussi Halla-aho, Hommaforum and others have a sinister ethnic-political aim: to keep Finland white and those few white immigrants that live here on a short leash.

    It is less sinister than your original genocidal agenda for changing the population.

    These groups have largely been able to roam Finnish public opinion nearly unchallenged because they

    Are taken seriously, and show the path out from the destruction you are advocating.

    When Migrant Tales started in May 2007 and began to get a larger audience in 2008, one of the main arguments of those that attacked this blog was that racism is a minor problem in Finland.

    That is a fact, actually. If, as you say, racism can only be against minorities, then the other problems the society faces, like unemployment and crime are by far more major. Usually the major problems need to be solved first, and not concentrate on minor issues.

    If we don’t act to we will not only destroy our present society by creating divisions and encouraging hatred of other groups, but shatter to pieces our good name abroad.

    Multiculturalism is the ideology creating the divisions, and that will destroy the present society allowing immigrant groups to preach hatered of other groups. This “good name abroad” attracts the wrong kind of attention, I would rather us had a name abroad such like Denmark has.

    To accuse anyone of us of hating and being racists against ALL Finns is not only unfair but absurd. So you admit hating and being a racist against SOME Finns?

    the PS can never aspire to be a “normal” and “credible” party in the eyes of the majority of Finns.

    You are talking as a majority of one. Even the racist SFP was ready to go in government with them.

  83. Allan

    Please show this in text where I have used “slander and defamation” and “invented facts.”

    For example that Winter War propaganda article was one of the latest ones. Claiming Suomen Sisu was a nazi organization by KRP and Supo was another one. You pass things as “fact” when they are misrepresentations, half-truths and inventions, at the same time bringing in slanderous attributes like nazis of KKK as in the above text.

    It is evident in how you never admit to your mistakes that your defence mechanism has always been to accuse the facts being racist and you never actually being wrong.

    • Enrique

      –For example that Winter War propaganda article was one of the latest ones. Claiming Suomen Sisu was a nazi organization by KRP and Supo was another one. You pass things as “fact” when they are misrepresentations, half-truths and inventions, at the same time bringing in slanderous attributes like nazis of KKK as in the above text.

      Please, tell me what is the latest one on the Winter War propaganda? Aren’t you happy that you have learned something new? How strengthening racist stereotypes will boost the war effort.

      Let me correct you: Did I say Suomen Sisu was a “Nazi organization?” I said, quoting a reliable source like JSN, that is was a “Nazi-spirited” association. There is a big difference between what you claim I said (Nazi ogranization) and what reliable sources like JSN state (Nazi-spirited).

      I gave you one of the sources, JSN JSN claims, which cites an expert, KRP and Supo. Here it is directly from the horse’s mouth from JSN: “Sisäsivulla aihetta laajennettiin uusnatsismin esiintymiseen yleisemmin Suomessa. Asiaa arvioivat uusnatseja tutkinut dosentti sekä Suojelupoliisin ja Keskusrikospoliisin edustajat. Heidän arvioihinsa perustuen jutussa todettiin, että pääkaupunkiseudulla toimii joitakin ”natsihenkisiä” ryhmiä, ja nimeltä mainittiin Lepakkojengi ja Suomen Sisu.”

      Now, if JSN, KRP and Supo are wrong you should get them to put out a correction or sue them. If I had to trust your word of theirs, it is pretty obvious that their analysis weighs more than yours.

      –It is evident in how you never admit to your mistakes that your defence mechanism has always been to accuse the facts being racist and you never actually being wrong.

      Allan, seriously, do you think you are going to come with this paper-thin argument and challenge me with it? I have been answering these types of accusations for a good three years. You are going to have to do better than that.

      And, by the way, where did I accuse you of being a racist? Yesterday you started getting all personal and throwing punches below the belt.

      My advice: If you want to challenge me and this blog, do it with strong arguments backed by facts.

  84. Mark

    You know, it’s clear that nearly two thirds of Finns don’t want to see more immigration. That means a third of Finns think it would be a good thing, and that’s a sizeable minority, about the same number as voted for PS, so let’s not dismiss them. Immigration is important to Finns, but that the most important thing. Only 16% of Finns put it in their top two in 2010, while that drops to 6% when asked about the issues directly affecting them.

    Statistics like this do suggest that some Finns will be happier with less immigration, but it hides attitudes to immigrants already living in Finland. Tolerance has been good here. Also, it’s hard to say how much of those attitudes are due to recession, rising stories in the press, the election coverage, xenophobia, economic concerns or just plain racism.

    If Finns want less immigration, then fine. Maybe there will be problems from this isolationism, maybe not. Maybe big problems for some sectors of society and less problems for others.

    I think that there are many Finns who want to see tighter immigration but nevertheless also want to see more tolerance and support for immigrants already here. In other words, attitudes differ across the different topics and it’s pointless trying to generalise. I would say that phrases like ‘multiculturalism will lead to war’ amounts to nothing more than paranoia, or a stupid defence of racism. But, if it increases, then it could become a kind of war mongering, which is actually illegal in Finland. In other words, it starts to be seen as an incitement to violence and war, whether civil war or war with another country. These things are not destined. There is no magic number or percentage of immigrants entering the population that spark a civil war. It is about the attitudes and approaches adopted.

    If Finns definitely want less foreigners, then fine. But I would caution how they have this debate, because they will make life very difficult for us foreigners who live here and work to promote Finland’s reputation in the world. That is a big part of my job, making sure researchers can communicate their ideas clearly to the international audience, which is important to their work and the domestic work done in Finland in my field. If Finland alienates it’s foreign talent, drops out of the EU, closes its borders, then I’m almost certain that Finland will suffer economically, culturally (a more backward kind of culture) and in terms of wellbeing. That not offered as a threat, but just an observation.

    Be careful what you wish for!

  85. Allan

    You cannot claim that the rise of xenophobia in Finland is attributable to “increasing immigration.” Immigrants accounted in 2010 for 2.9% of the total population of Finland.

    Enrique, the rise of “xenophobia” in Finland is most definitely attributable to “increasing immigration”.
    http://www.vaestorekisterikeskus.fi/default.aspx?docid=985
    Page 13 the statistics from 1981-2010

    Number of immigrants of the total population of Finland:
    1981-1986 a static 0,3%
    1987-1990 a static 0,4%
    1991 0,5%
    1992 0,7%
    1993 0,9%
    Here the census point changes, but what can we see already here, a pretty small and static amount of immigration suddenly avalanches from 0,1% increase in 5 years to 0,2% in a year.
    from 1994 onwards, the increase in immigration steadied from a 0,1% yearly increase to some slower periods, but past 2005 its been 0,2%.

    So what the hell does 2,9% mean as a show of the increase of immigration has no effect?
    The increase of immigration has been huge!
    1981-1985 0,3 =>0,3
    1985-1990 0,3 =>0,4
    1990-1995 0,4 =>1,3 (in five years what would have taken 40 years at the previous rate)
    1995-2000 1,3 =>1,7 steady 0,4 increase
    2000 -2005 1,7 =>2,1 steady 0,4 increase
    2005-2010 2,1 => 2,9 thats again doubled from 0,4 to 0,8

    Can you do the maths or just oy vey all of this? The “increase in immigration”, especially the pants-down phase of the 1990’s when the resources werent there was a huge shock. Of course the economy has an effect, but on the whole it is not xenophobia any more – it is xenologia – opposing immigration due to its effects.

    Of course, compared to say Sweden Finland does not have “as many immigrants” but is that some sort of a competition?

  86. Allan

    Mark, exactly how was Finland “isolated” before the EU, did we have our borders closed for reasearch and talent, or culture?

    The idea of immigration is to benefit the nation as a whole, and I do not think anyone believes in this closing the borders isolationism – except making sure it is the talent that is attracted and not people sitting on the streetcorners demanding things.

    Exactly what benefit it is for a country to have multicultural ghettoes? GDP is saved by the market demand to replace burned cars?

  87. Allan

    Enrique, again you are not quoting the “vastine” from Suomen Sisu, JSN said there was no need for further action as the “vastine” correcting the article had been published. Nothing else.

    You are also omitting the fact, that the journalist in question had made the connection – not KRP nor Supo. I wrote the quote for you already once, Suomen Sisu had inquired about these statement. The docent had not researched Suomen Sisu, KRP had said nothing about Suomen Sisu, only organized crime gangs like the Lepakkojengi, and Supo does not give out statements about organizations. These are the facts, if you do not believe me write and ask Teemu Lahtinen.

    Näin asiasta kirjoittaa silloinen Suomen Sisun puheenjohtaja Teemu Lahtinen: ” Sisu alkoi tutkia asiaa ja sai lausunnot kaikilta kolmelta taholta (dosentti, KRP ja Supo). Dosentti totesi loukkaantuneena, että hänen sanomisiaan on tulkittu väärin, eikä hän ole kommentoinut Sisua lainkaan, koska ei ole tutkinut sitä. KRP kertoi lausunnossaan arvioineensa vain pk-seudun pikkurikollisryhmiä, eikä lausunut Sisusta mitään. Supon osalta selvitettiin ettei se anna sen suhtaisia arvioita kansalaisjärjestöistä lainkaan. Näin ollen lehden väitteet on lähteiden puolesta ammuttu alas, ja natsiväitteet ovat paljastuneet toimittajan oman mielikuvituksen tuotteiksi.”

    So this is the third time I am presenting you the direct 1st party facts, and you still continue depend on third-party heresay.

    • Enrique

      –Näin asiasta kirjoittaa silloinen Suomen Sisun puheenjohtaja Teemu Lahtinen:

      No can do. Teem Lahtinen can disagree with their view of Suomen Sisu but he’s going to have to get a correction from JSN, KRP and Supo to make it stick. In the media world that’s how it works. If somebody puts out wrong information it is the job of the one that did to put out a correction. Do you have a correction or a statement from these organizations or, as you point out, the journalist misrepresented what they said.

      By the way, Lahtinen was seen marching in France next to another Finn that carried the IKL flag. What kind of an organization was IKL in your opinion?

      What’s offensive (except to black people) what the SK article wrote? Blacks were second- even fourth-class citizens in World War 2. This is an important historical article that shows how some saw blacks at the time.

  88. Allan

    Enrique, Winter War was over by Easter of 1940. It was “Välirauha”. Just a little obscure point, but the “propaganda” article has nothing to do with Winter War. Secondly, both East Indies, malays and running amuk are well documented phenomena. Now if some Swedish professor writes an article and they happen to have a scared-looking black guys picture in the archive ( in Sweden probably as the articles were sold with illustrations) I still fail to see how that reflects badly uniquely on the Finns, after all it was a “scientific” article that portrays the racial theories in vogue back in the 1940’s.

    So to sum it up: you found an article in an old newspaper, can not understand the framework, misrepresent it, and use it to make offensive remarks about Finland and the Finns. Using racial stereotypes to boost the war effort you find the best examples from the USA against Japan. But you would not present them, as that would make you look silly.

  89. Allan

    Enrique – apparently you are missing the point of the JSN – go read the published correction from Länsiväylä! It sticks. You on the other hand are repeating the lies of the reporter. And you are not quoting the original articles rather than third-party heresay. JSN has neither articles in the brief. Go read from the original Länsiväylä Teemu Lahtinen’s correction, and he surely has the replies from the people interviewed for the article in his files so you can verify them.

    If someone puts out wrong information, the information does not come true no matter how many times you repeat it. So, as the description of Suomen Sisu is irrefutably proven to be a lie, at the end of the day you are what you write, Enrique.

    The SK article or its existance or historical context is not offensive, the way you present it out of its context is offensive.

    • Enrique

      JSN does not mention any correction. Read what it says: Lehti julkaisi myöhemmin järjestön puheenjohtajan mielipidekirjoituksen, jossa tämä selvitti oman kantansa. Julkisen sanan neuvoston mielestä lehdellä oli perusteet mainintaan natsihenkisyydestä, joten kyseessä ei ollut virhe. Lisäksi lehti antoi järjestön puheenjohtajalle mahdollisuuden tuoda esiin oma mielipiteensä asiasta.

      Am I reading this wrong?

  90. Allan

    It was not a mistake to publish the opinion as the organization was able to present its counter-opinion The fact remains, that neiter the docent, KRP nor Supo had said anything of SuomenSisu, but it was the opinion of the reporter, all the JSN says reporter was right to have such an opinion. Which part of presenting this opinion as a fact is not making you look stupid?

    • Enrique

      Alan. I’ll stick to what I know. By the way, Länsiväylä was way too nice to give a person like T. Lahtinen a chance to write a rebuttal, which is not a correction.
      I told you yesterday that we don’t like insults on this blog. In basketball if you get two technicals you are out.
      Are you a member of Suomi Sisu? What kind of an organization is IKL?

  91. Mark

    Allan

    Mark wrote: “The same issue applies to men and violence. When women talk about men as violent, then non-violent men take offence, because we are all being made to feel responsible.”

    OK, lets address that with the editorial policy of this blog: So, have you stopped beating up your wife?

    Two answers. First, I have never beat my wife and second, I would condemn any man that did. You see, Allan, it’s that easy. But let me caracaturise your reaction to that same question:

    Nobody beats their wife in Finland

    Now come on, is that the way to respond to a question you think is directed at you or your fellow countryman? It’s not just about whether racism is a problem in Finland, it’s about whether any kind of racism anywhere is a problem. And from what I can see, correct me if I’m wrong, you don’t say a whole lot about racism being a problem anywhere for anyone.

    – “Well we don’t come to their country to insult their, so what makes them get the right to come to our country and insult us?”

    Come on, Allan. Let’s be a bit more grown up. People can be critical of things in a country they move to. The sky doesn’t fall in and Finland’s reputation is destroyed, not that you seem to be bothered about what foreigners think anyway. In fact, what is more surprising is when the obvious is denied, that racism does exist in Finland, and when there is no straight-up-front condemnation of it. People start to think, ‘what’s going on there?’. It doesn’t seem to add up.

    And who is being insulted here? This blog condemns racism and xenophobia, so if you are neither of these two, I see no reason for you to feel insulted. If Enrique makes claims that can’t be backed up, that is something else. The other point is that condemning racism is different to condemning racists. It’s important to seperate the behaviour from the person.

    – “If they came from a society that made their country unbearable to live in, so why do you expect us to listen to their advice to change Finland into something worse than it already is?”

    Allan, I have been in Finland for eight years, and I cannot see for a second why living with immigrants would make anyone’s life here ‘unbearable’. What are you, locked up in some Afghan’s cellar somewhere?

    – “…this vitriolic anti-finitic defamation along with its verafennophobia and the wish to destroy the Finnish culture and society.”

    Come on, that’s really stretching it. Or do you think that is justified if you think Enrique is stretching it? Sometimes, arguing with you, I really think you bend the arguments to fit what you perceive to be the weaknesses of the opponents arguments. But then there is very little left to really debate properly about because we get into an endless cycle of misrepresentations. If you think Enrique is using his labels wrongly, then call him on it, ask him for evidence. That’s much more constructive for other people reading this blog who are interested at getting at the truth.

    I take on board your points about PS politicians and various groups and forums being misrepresented. It’s a common complaint among ‘fringe’ groups, shall we call them. But then we have to get back to what is actually said and written by people in these groups and see how that stacks up. From what I can see, Enrique quotes things that they have said or written. Out of context? I don’t know, but what is written certainly raises my eyebrows.

    Also, because people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali openly condemns and criticizes Islam, that doesn’t mean that her approach should be the approach of national polticians. She is on a one-woman crusade to address all the problems of Islam, but she so often throws the baby out with the bath water. I mean, I have lived with Muslims and they are not, as she suggests, all extremists. Taking her approach, one could argue the same against Christianity and Judaism. That appears more like a radical even militant form of humanism. I don’t know what she imagines is the answer – just get rid of religion. But in that sense, that is a civil war among humanity. And that’s a fucking disaster of huge proportions. And is the way to fight extremism or barbaric practices to constantly condemn all elements of religion? I don’t think so. I think it is to support human rights and encourage reform and moderatism. She, like many on the right, simply refuse to accept that there are elements of moderatism. We need people like Ayaan, visible and vocal critics of the exceses of Islam. No question. And Islam does need to modernise in much the same way that Christianity did. But you have to remember – Christianity was forced to modernise when it had it’s political power removed. By politicising arguments about Islam, the opposite effect may come about, to create conditions in which Political Islam is seen as the only way that Islam can ‘defend’ itself. You must have some sympathy here with Muslims and this feeling of having to defend themselves and their rights to freedom.

    There are no easy answers here. Cultural values do conflict. But we can say what won’t work and greater tension, greater separation and more heated rhetoric (and accusing the prophet of being a peadophile is certainly ratcheting up the temperature of the debate) will only lead to more polarisation. Co-existance is the only game in town, folks. And we haven’t learnt to play it properly yet. We have to support the moderates on all sides. That’s my view Allan. Right or wrong.

  92. Mark

    Allan

    – “Mark, exactly how was Finland “isolated” before the EU, did we have our borders closed for reasearch and talent, or culture?”

    Well, it’s a commonly held belief in Finland that before the EU membership, Finland concentrated it’s export market too heavily in Russia. With the fall of the soviet empire, Finland’s external trade collapsed. Not isolated perhaps, but vulnerable.

    But that’s not a lesson of history relevant to the present. The current conditions are that any country that now tries to opt out of the Euro is going to be toast for decades. That’s not scare mongering, that is the concensus view among ecoomists who know there will be a huge run on the new currency. ‘A lone sitting duck’, is the phrase that comes to mind. The Euro is one of those things that once your in, you are a whole lot better in than out. The advantages of the Euro are still outweighing the negatives. When you start to see the French or Germans talking of leaving the Euro, that’s when you know that it’s time to get out.

    – “Exactly what benefit it is for a country to have multicultural ghettoes? GDP is saved by the market demand to replace burned cars?”

    That’s a good one. Ghettoes are no good for anyone, least of all the immigrants or natives that live in them. But you have to understand, you and I have as much say in whether those ghettoes become a reality or not. If immigrants cannot get jobs because of mistrust, prejudice or plain hatred of their ethnicity, then ghettoes there will be. And the more we focus on slinging the dirt at minorities, the harder it makes it for them to find jobs. There are social problems throughout Finland. Immigration, in terms of size and number of people affected, is only a small proportion of those problems. But they have become scapegoats for all the ills of urban society.

  93. Allan

    Now come on, is that the way to respond to a question you think is directed at you or your fellow countryman?
    Only after 1000’s of pages calling your home a “Country of Wifebeaters” and presenting evidence like hanes beef-up t’s being on sale, as somewhere they are called “wifebeaters”. It gets a bit annoying after the initial amusement passes.

    People can be critical of things in a country they move to.
    Ok, so how does that make it then xenophobia and racism if the locals are critical of those that move in?

    I cannot see for a second why living with immigrants would make anyone’s life here ‘unbearable’. What are you, locked up in some Afghan’s cellar somewhere?

    What do you have against being locked up in an Afghans cellar, I thought you advocated multiculturalism? Besides which it is racist not to celebrate the Afghan cellars, every house should have one, as the Afghans have a cellar culture so much better than the Finnish. Don’t be xenophobic, embrace the Afghan cellars!

    I don’t know, but what is written certainly raises my eyebrows.
    The thing is most of the newspapers take things out of context to sell headlines. Foreigners not being able to follow but the headlines nor without any understanding of the situation then depend on the anti-Finnish media like Helsinki Times or places like Enriques blog to read about this which further warps their opinion.

    At the end of the day, Mark, why do we need>/i> immigration if we do not have jobs nor the capacity to integrate? Enrique just wants to see burning cars in the street as people celebrate multiculturalism, I do not find that an objective to pursue.

    What comes to the Euro, look at Sweden or even better Denmark. The move to Euro was joining France and Germany – not jumping in with Greek cooked books and mediteranean economy. Someone got shortchanged in that deal.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique – you do not like the truth in this blog.

      Allan, is this a new tactic: If you lose an argument and retreat you start going off the wall with accusations flying right and left? Remember that a lot of people read this blog abroad and you represent who you are.

  94. Allan

    Well, it’s a commonly held belief in Finland that before the EU membership, Finland concentrated it’s export market too heavily in Russia. With the fall of the soviet empire, Finland’s external trade collapsed. Not isolated perhaps, but vulnerable.

    Ah, now that was export of a lot of small industries that was depending on that. The major trading parters were in the West and the economy was heavily dependent on selling paper and pulp. Now as the USSR fell it basically could not afford to buy the quantities and as the Finnish market had been as you say “isolated” the production costs in say the textile industry were too high to compete at first with Portugal or then with Asia. The fall of the USSR was a blow, but the recession that started in the late 80’s also made huge problems for the main exports, paper and pulp. So it all nicely collapsed, but we have had the same phenomenon in all Western countries at one point or the other. What did not collapse though, was the production costs or the cost of labor.

  95. Allan

    What kind of an organization is IKL?
    A historical one. Or do you mean the 90’s revival one? I think the same applies. Oh but I need to give you some material – yeah, its really huge and a significant number of members are plumbers. They install leaking faucets under every immigrants sink just to make them leave. All the janitors are members of IKL as they hoist Finnish flags on certain cryptic days. Theres also a secret handsign, it consists of showing your middle finger at people. If you look on the street especially in the evenings a lot of young people are using it, they are all members of the IKL

    I’ll stick to what I know.
    I haven’t seen anything on licking windows. But then again I haven’t seen anything on Vapauspuolue either. Are you holding back some revelations?

    • Enrique

      –Are you holding back some revelations?

      A rebuttal is different from a correction, or a mistake by the paper. JSN simply stated that in light of KRP, Supo and the senior lecturer, there was no mistake by Länsiväylä in reporting that Suomen Sisu is a Nazi-spirited association. If the reporter would have misquoted KRP and Supo, Länsiväylä would have had to issue a correction, which they didn’t have to due to the JSN ruling. It was only T. Lahtinen giving a rebuttal, which was not a correction.

      Can you bring something new to this that would overturn what JSN (2853/IL/08) ruling? If not, end of discussion.

  96. Mark

    Allan

    – “Only after 1000 ‘s of pages calling your home a ” Country of Wifebeaters ” and Presenting Evidence like Hanes beef – up t ‘s being on sale, as Somewhere They are called the ” wifebeaters “. It gets a bit annoying after the initial amusement passes.”

    Allan, I gave you police statistics on racist crime in Finland, and many surveys show that what is reported is only a tip of the iceberg and you dismissed the lot. So it’s hardly down to being just a burger called ‘wifebeaters’.

    Glad to see you embracing the Afghan cellars, Allan. I knew you were a multiculturalist at heart.

    – “At the end of the day, Mark, why do we need immigration if we do not have jobs nor the capacity to integrate?”

    Well, maybe Finland doesn’t need immigration, Allan, that is for politicians to decide. But there are resources to help people integrate and a lot of work is done to integrate immigrants and yes, a lot of immigrants do integrate perfectly well. You present an overly pessimistic picture.

    In the UK, after the inner city riots of 1981, after tensions between police and black youths erupted in Toxteth and Brixton, the Scarman Report, commissioned by the conservative home secretary Willie Whitelaw concluded that the violence was a result of deprivation and warned that “urgent action is needed to prevent racial disadvantage from becoming an endemic, ineradicable disease threatening the very survival of our society.”

    Now you can argue that this was the result of immigration, but that is still locking the door of the stable after the horse has bolted. That’s an observation that things have gone wrong. It’s not a solution.

    Interestingly, Scarman also said that positive discrimination was a price worth paying to sort out the problems. The Macpherson report, which came after the Stephen Lawrence inquiry came to a different conclusion to Scarman in saying the police force was institutionally racist. That marked a very different approach to community policing in the UK.

  97. Mark

    Allan

    – “So it all nicely collapsed, But we ‘ve had the same phenomenon in all western countries at one point or the other. What did not collapse though, was the production costs or the cost of labor.”

    Nice bit of American spelling there, Allan – labor. Why would labour costs collapse during a recession?

  98. Allan

    Allan, I gave you police statistics on racist crime in Finland, and many surveys show that what is reported is only a tip of the iceberg and you dismissed the lot.

    I do not think you are stupid, so tell me exactly what those statistics are? Those statistics are suspicions of racially motivated crime. Why are they not comparable to previous statistics? Because the way the police started classifying the reports was changed. Therefore, all reports with an immigrant as a recieving end are now classified as “racism”. The statistics you should look at are the actual discrimination cases as well as senteces by courts that actually are cases of racism. It is the same thing I would be blathering about “gange rapes committed by blacks” as there has been several reports …oops the ladies in question actually invented them. See what the problem is?
    OK, racism has hugely risen and so has gang rapes by blacks, happy now?

    Now you can argue that this was the result of immigration, but that is still locking the door of the stable after the horse has bolted.

    But don’t have horses in the stable, just 2 mules for sister Sarah, so whats the idea of getting horses if they will bolt?

    Why would labour costs collapse during a recession?
    To create new industry you need to give incentives. Cutting the employer costs is an incentive to hire more people.

  99. Allan

    Enrique – I hate to point out the obvious, the ruling did not state that the quotes were true. The rebuttal by T. Lahtinen was enough for a correction. I have provided you with the facts. You can write and ask if T. Lahtinen has the direct answers from the people interviewed. Add to this “credible source” Länsiväylä is a freely distributed junk mail local paper in Espoo.

    Can you bring anything forth to show that this is not the truth? As in 1st hand sources, and not your own imagination.

    • Enrique

      –As in 1st hand sources, and not your own imagination.

      Yes, please get in touch with JSN and ask them about decision 3853/IL/08. Good luck.

    • Enrique

      For all of you who want to know more about Suomen Sisu and about the Nazi-spirited association, visit: http://todellisuus.org/index.php?action=printpage%3Btopic%3D955.0

      One of the factors that make it a Nazi-, or far-right spirited, association is that they believe in “racial hygiene” (see Alfred Rosenberg’s “The myth of the twentieth century”). These people have a demented view that Finns have never mixed with any groups and that the Garden of Eden was in Finland. Adam and Eve were Finnish.

      These types of associations are not only an insult to people who have married non-Finns, but to their children who are Finns. Should multicultural Finns be ashamed of their background because of Suomen Sisu? By the way, this group that belongs to the Nazi-spirited association has a few MPs in parliament. Some of these are Jussi Halla-aho, Olli Immonen, James Hirvisaari, and Juho Eerola, who is reported to be an admirer of Benito Mussolini’s economic policies. Mussolini’s Italy was a corporativist economy backed by strong unions.

      We saw something similar happen in Argentina with disatrous results under Juan Domingo Perón, who was also a Mussolini admirer.

    • Enrique

      Hannu, after doing some checking up the over 800 visits I received in a few hours was from Jussi Halla-aho’s website Scripta. One of these that wrote a lot of racist stuff on Scripta was “Old No. 7.” Let me translate what he wrote after you sounded the call: “Certainly there is discrimination in Finland, hatred of Russians, chauvinism as well as other things – and what of it? Couldn’t we point out that these things are part of Finnish culture? Since they are a part of our official culture, we could make the case that we are protecting (our cultural traits) from immigrants. It could certainly work that way.”

      These are the types of people that roamed freely the net back then on Halla-aho’s website. Unfortuantely too many still do.

  100. Seppo

    – “Immigrants accounted in 2010 for 2.9% of the total population of Finland. ”

    I don’t want to be rude but this figure is a lie.

    In 2010 there were 248 135 people living in Finland who were born abroad. That’s about 4,6 % of the total population. This number includes also persons born abroad to Finnish parent(s) but I believe they are not more than 30 000 – 40 000. And some of these could well fit in the category of immigrant. Or what do you think, are you an immigrant?

    In any case immigrants account for at least 4 % of the total population. That is 25 % more than in your estimation which I belive is based on the citizenship of people living in Finland.

    There are several problems with using foreign citizenship as equalling immigrant. The most obvious is that people can obtain Finnish citizenship and than they suddenly stop being immigrants. Maybe it’s a bit controversial but isn’t an immigrant an immigrant no matter which citizenship he holds? To me an immigrant is a person born in one country who has then moved to live in another country.

    Each year there are thousands of immigrants who get Finnish citizenship. Some year there could be more of them than new immigrants moving in. So according to this citizenship-logic the number of immigrants could be going down when it’s actually still going up.

    • Enrique

      –In any case immigrants account for at least 4 % of the total population.

      Naturalized Finns are not calculated as immigrants.

    • Enrique

      Another question, Seppo: Why is this type of information important to you? How does it make your life easier?

  101. Seppo

    Why not? I honestly don’t understand.

    There are also people who are born and raised in Finland but whose parents have wanted them to have only the citizenship of their former country. They are immigrants in your figure.

    Homma people are often using all kinds of figures, for example crime statistics, in a “clever” way to further their goals and ideas. They read the stats in a way that fits their agenda.

    You are now doing the same with these population statistics.

  102. Seppo

    I think you understand very well yourself how this kind of reading of the statistics just does not give the real picture of the reality.

    Let’s say immigration would suddenly stop. In 10 years all immigrants residing in Finland before that stop would have obtained Finnish citizenship. Then we could say there are no immigrants in Finland. Come on.

  103. JusticeDemon

    Ricky

    Naturalized Finns are not calculated as immigrants.

    I think you will find that they are. Everywhere.

    An immigrant is merely an individual with a personal history of migration, as viewed from the receiving domicile. Strictly speaking, this implies nothing as to nationality or ethnicity.

  104. Allan

    Seppo, there was somewhere a breakdown picture of this “statistical anomaly” thing, about people with Finnish as mother tongue vs. people with some other language vs. people with foreign nationality or parents or one parent with foreign nationality. It all doesn’t fall 1:1 in any case.

    But if you want to get into some figures:
    http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/2009/01/vaerak_2009_01_2010-09-30_kat_001_fi.html

    Heres breakdowns by nationality, birth country, language
    http://pxweb2.stat.fi/database/StatFin/vrm/vaerak/vaerak_fi.asp

    Helsinki region is running around 10% figures, or even more in some areas so that 2,9% is probably true in Viitasaari.

  105. Mark

    Allan

    – “I do not think you are stupid, so tell me exactly what those statistics are? Those statistics are suspicions of racially motivated crime. Why are they not comparable to previous statistics?”

    Thanks for the complement. As it happens, I think you are partly right about those vague nature of the statistics on racist crime.

    Let’s take 2005, where I found information in English. The Police College of Finland did a study on ‘racist crime’. They compiled for 2005 a total of 665 crimes with a suspected racist motive. In about half of those, the police had felt there was some evidence to suggest a racist motive, but in the other half, the researchers had simply catalogued those cases, as you said, where the crime involved two people of different ethnicities.

    When you look at convictions for that year, only 25 were actually convicted. But again, the reasons are that many are minor assaults and alternatives to court are found or, as in many cases, the perpetrator is not caught. It’s quite poor. Other things are striking in the data though, and that is that the biggest reported racist crimes are against groups that stand out as being foreigners, take place at night in public places and involve strangers. I know you will say this is ‘two people fighting, one of whom happens to be foreign’, but really, one could only assume that from half of the statistics, and even then, it would be strange to account for the fact that Somalis seem to be targetted the most often based on the size of their population.

    The evidence from other reports, such as surveys of foreigners, is quite comprehensive, and reflects a much bigger problem in terms of numbers. I’ve given those numbers previously, so I won’t bore you with them.

    And this is just dealing with what can be demonstrated as ‘racist crime’. There is a great deal more ‘racism’ that one can encounter that, while strictly speaking a crime, is not going to be reported to the police. Again, I’ve already written too about employment issues and how prejudice leaves some foreigners disadvanted in the labour markets.

    One final point. The lack of real statistics is rather worrying. Racism is hard to prove, always was. But when particular groups are seen to be victims of assault rather more than their proportion in the population suggests, it raises questions. Also, when parts of the population show higher rates of unemployment, it raises questions.

    I connect these statistics with what I know talking to Finns. I have met several dozen Finns who were openly racist but who thought my Englishness meant I could be let in on the secret. This not to say that they would commit a crime, and as you have pointed out in a roundabout away, racism, where defined as thoughts or ideas, is not a crime, only racism that becomes an act. But racist is racist, whether it’s passive or active.

    I understand you defending Finland. It’s a great place. Honest, hard-working people with values, a sense of humour, humanity and a great love of beer! 🙂 I was very happy to work here and contribute to improving, in my own little way, Finland’s reputation abroad. But I am genuinely shocked and saddened at many of the comments and statements I have heard and read since PS came to the fore. To say that PS have opened a hornets nest is an understatement.

  106. Seppo

    Here’s the picure:
    http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/2010/vaerak_2010_2011-03-18_kuv_002_fi.html

    It’s actually a really good one, from that you get a good overall picture of the immigration to Finland.

    Online dictionary for immigrant: “a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence”.

    I think JD’s definition is a good one: “An immigrant is an individual with a personal history of migration, as viewed from the receiving domicile.”

    So about 4,6% of Finland’s population has such a personal history. If we want to see the term immigrant as referring to people with a different ethno-cultural background than the majority in the country then we can count out the immigrants that have Finnish, Swedish or Sami as mother toungue. There are 54 000 such people, more than I thought, so the overall figure for “real” immigrants is about 3,6 %.

    We should note that many of the immigrants from former Soviet Union who came as Ingrian Finns have registered Finnish as their mother tongue even though they wouldn’t have spoken it before arriving. Most of these people have clearly a different ethno-cultural background even though someone in their family is/was an ethnic Finn.

    Included among the Swedish-speaking immigrants are also a few thousand ethnic Swedes who would also qualify as “real” immigrants.

    So I would put the overall figure of immigrants at 4 %. One thing is for sure – it is not simple to get to any reliable figure and you cannot use only one factor when you look at it.

  107. Seppo

    – “Another question, Seppo: Why is this type of information important to you? How does it make your life easier?”

    Heh, a good question I think.

    It’s mostly just because, for some reason, I’m extremely interested in population statistics. The number of immigrants, different languages spoken, births and deaths etc. And not just for Finland, I’m checking them regularly for other countries as well.

    So mostly for me it’s just interesting to know these things. I guess it doesn’t make my life easier in any way.

    And since I’m generally interested in social and political affairs, population structure is a major factor. It affects many things in the society.

    When you talk about immigration and immigrants in different countries the most obvious question is how many immgrants are there in country X. Maybe this is not the most important question but in any case, I want to be able to answer that question regarding my own country.

  108. Allan

    Mark: But when particular groups are seen to be victims of assault rather more than their proportion in the population suggests, it raises questions. Also, when parts of the population show higher rates of unemployment, it raises questions.

    And what if the answer is not politically correct?

  109. Allan

    Another question, Seppo: Why is this type of information important to you? How does it make your life easier?

    Knowledge of facts and the ability to analyse them and make arguments based on facts actually do help some in making blog posts that do not get hostile comments. But then again there is the other way reporters and customs officials use, the stetson-method.

  110. JusticeDemon

    Allan

    Indeed JD, you could call me an emigrantti there now.

    Yes, as viewed from here, you are a maastamuuttaja.

    I should add that not all foreigners who have come to Finland are immigrants. The key concept is a change of domicile. Temporary residents are not immigrants.

    The Finnish immigration system automatically assumes a change of domicile in certain types of case, and similarly refuses to recognise such a change in other cases. These assumptions do not necessarily always match the circumstances of the case, which crucially include the intentions of the concerned party.

    Incorrect assessments of change of domicile are a core problem of the immigration system in Finland.

  111. Mark

    Allan

    – “And what if the answer is not politically correct?”

    The real question is if they are open to political correcting, not correctness. I imagine you are talking about the unemployment figures in particular, and you would probably agree, that there are a variety of circumstances and reasons, some more amenable to ‘correction’ than others.

    The most valuable answer is of course that it is best to know the truth, as far as we can ascertain it. Not a simplification, and not something that serves political expediency or the needs of a populist or any other party. But even once you have a good idea about the problems brought about or facing immigrants, the answer is usually about targeted resources.

    You’re a smart guy Allan, so why don’t you get more involved on the immigrant side of things to balance out your opinions? 😉

  112. Allan

    I imagine you are talking about the unemployment figures in particular, and you would probably agree, that there are a variety of circumstances and reasons, some more amenable to ‘correction’ than others.

    To start with, the composition of certain groups. We all know “angry young men” get into trouble, and as some groups are composed of “angry young men” whose multiculturalcultural habits, that is acting towards women or others “like at home” add to being from unstable societies – frankly make them total assholes. So all the “anti-racism” is that you expect people to be nice to assholes who form gangs and invade your turf, as Finns have their share of “angry young men” as well. See what the problem is why the “angry young men” are pissed off at both the immigration as well as the antiracists?

  113. JusticeDemon

    Allan

    OK – I’ll bite. How did you work out that todellisuus.org is a Communist propaganda site?

    Was it the pale green colour scheme or the rule about banning anonymous proxy access so that contributors might be held personally accountable for their contributions?

  114. Allan

    No, I have actually been reading it. Check the names, posters are from vasemmistoliitto, the rabid left side of greens, or with good old taistolais history… The arguments are also very red-green. Though to get to a real Communist propaganda chute, try SAFKA http://antifasistit.blogspot.com/ .

  115. Mark

    Allan

    I cannot trust a a theory of social behaviour that seeks to make one side seem justified while the other side is made out to be the bad guys (Finns are just defending women, just fighting an invasion of gangs of arseholes, just fighting misprepresenation from antiracists, etc.).

    Allan, you turn social politics into something like a game of football, where you team does no ill and the other team are always cheating.

    It might be okay with your mates down the pub Allan, but in the real world of politics, and by that I mean policy making not election rhetoric, such a limited view is very quickly found out as a kind of ignorance.

    Going back to those 2005 figures, if it is only about ‘angry young men’ as you put it, then why were only 28% of reported crimes against people aged 15-24? I guess you have to come up with another hocus pocus theory to explain the other 72% of crimes?

    As it happens, I went to find that original report, and actually the researchers were much more thorough in sifting out actual racist crimes than has been reported, so that 669 registered crimes are confidently considered racist crimes, and, get this, about the same amount again should have been recorded as racist crimes after they went through the case notes, and weren’t. A separate study started in 2008 that began to follow the cases in Helsinki, with the obvious implication that there might be different rules for reporting race crime compared to other crime.

  116. Allan

    Enrique, read the comments to the editorial. Especially this one could have been written by me:

    Millä Suomi vapautettaisiin pelosta?”

    Sillä, että hylätään haaveet Itä-Saksan mallin unelmavaltiosta, hylätään Suomelle, sen kansalle ja kulttuurille äärimmäisen vahingollinen monikulttuuri-ideologia, saatetaan maahanmuuttopolitiikka vihdoin järkevälle tolalle, punavihreä toimittajaluokka poistetaan mediasta vihaa ja eripuraa kylvämästä ja palautetaan maahan demokratia eli kansan tahto. Ei siihen muuta tarvita.

    • Enrique

      –Sillä, että hylätään haaveet Itä-Saksan mallin unelmavaltiosta, hylätään Suomelle, sen kansalle ja kulttuurille äärimmäisen vahingollinen monikulttuuri-ideologia, saatetaan maahanmuuttopolitiikka vihdoin järkevälle tolalle, punavihreä toimittajaluokka poistetaan mediasta vihaa ja eripuraa kylvämästä ja palautetaan maahan demokratia eli kansan tahto. Ei siihen muuta tarvita.

      Itä-Saksa ei ole olemassa ja en koskaan tiennyt, että Suomessa harrastetaan “äärimäisen vahingollinen monnikulttuuri-ideologia.” Mitä on “monnikulttuuri-ideologia?” Tiedätkö itse? Nämä ovat niitä Scripta ja Hommaforumin iskulauseita parhaillaan.

      Todistaa minulle, että Suomi on monikulttuurinen maa? Missä lue semmoista? Perustuslaissa? Tai omassa päässä?

  117. JusticeDemon

    Allan

    Yes, that could have been written by you. It’s populist and vacuous. It fails to specify any concrete policy proposals, and leaves you as the sole arbiter of when the imaginary programme objective has been achieved.

    • Enrique

      –and leaves you as the sole arbiter of when the imaginary programme objective has been achieved.

      Maybe that is what Allan is seeking: full control. He would, however, never suggest that type of control on his own group.

  118. JusticeDemon

    Allan

    Check the names, posters are from vasemmistoliitto, the rabid left side of greens, or with good old taistolais history…

    So by this reasoning Migrant Tales is a propaganda site for the boys that sat at the back of the classroom (where the teacher’s voice could be heard, but didn’t disturb the process of planning how to nick the church silverware).

  119. Allan

    en koskaan tiennyt, että Suomessa harrastetaan “äärimäisen vahingollinen monnikulttuuri-ideologia.”

    You do not know your own hobbies?

    Todistaa minulle, että Suomi on monikulttuurinen maa? Missä lue semmoista?

    Off the top of my head:
    Laki Yleisradio Oy:stä 22.12.1993/1380
    … 5) tukea suvaitsevaisuutta ja monikulttuurisuutta

    For one, theres others.

    • Enrique

      –Laki Yleisradio Oy:stä 22.12.1993/1380

      That is not official policy but an editorial line. If you look at the laws of the land, which count, you will not find in our Constitution, for example, any mention that we are a “multicultural nation.”

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