An immigrant’s life in Finland:* Dana misses her family

by , under Dana, Enrique, Migrant Tales Literary

By Enrique Tessieri

I have never met in person an Iranian woman calls herself anonymously Dana. Even so, she comes to life little by little as an image in my mind  and when she writes about her greatest suffering in Finland: living without her parents. Things may get worse before they improve for Dana since Christian Democrat minister of the interior, Päivi Räsänen, announced plans last year to tighten further family reunification rules.

It’s quite incredible that a country that suffered a devastating war and had to resettle 410,000 Karelian refugees after the Continuation War (1941-44) lacks compassion for refugees who are traumatized by war and need their parents as well as their closest relatives by their sides. Finns who emigrated to the United States in the nineteenth century did the same thing. After they got settled, they brought their relatives and even their friends and neighbors.

Where does this lack of compassion come from? Is it because our authorities don’t more Africans to move to Finland? Take for example a minor who flees war-torn Somalia and gets political asylum. Everything is fine except for one very vital detail: the right to live with his or her parents.

Dana isn’t too old nor is she too young. She feels great emptiness and despair because she hasn’t seen her parents for seven years. Dana isn’t too happy with the social welfare system, which, according to her, eats away your self-esteem and opens you up to abuse.

I asked her if she could write something that would reveal her feelings and life in Finland. I got the following poem  by email from her that I edited in English. A lot of things have happened to Dana. She was once arrested and put in a police cell apparently for protesting against her detention at the social welfare office on Dagmaninkatu 6 in Helsinki:

R U racist or fascist? Ur guilty and a terrorist.

R U brave or a coward? Don’t you have any life why are you so cranky?

Leave my legs, hands alone…shame on u for being so ruthless and rabid

In this cold, hard and dark jail…oh God my heart is broken, pity me!

Why did I believe the words of my demons?? Why have I ended up here in a corner of my cell?

Why aren’t there any human here?? Why did my hope die in my spirit??

Come on ironic robot police and open this door…my race and yours are one, the same, awaken now…

My social workers fooled me and U in an instant…Stop the anguish and awaken for a second

Why can’t I find any doors here??? Why have I fallen here tired and all alone???

Why is the law against me and us??? Why is the color of my skin the crime, the sin? Who said these things???

Come and open ur two eyes at this moment…Don’t beat on my wings and feathers because I’m so tired

Katu, this Dagmarinkatu is pure agony, torture…Number 6 is an open sore, pain and a mirage in a sea of hopelessness.

راشیستی یا فاشیستی         ثو مجرم تروریستی

دلیری یا که ترسو        نداری غیرت ای بیمار بد خو?

 رها کن دست و پایم        حیا کن ظالم هار

 در این زندان سخت و سرد و تاریک       خدا قلبم شکته وای بر من

 چرا باور  نمودم حرف دیوان?       چرا افتادهام در کنج زندان?

  چرا اینجا ندارد هیچ مهربان ?     چرا امید من شد مرده در جان?

  بیا بگشا پلیس اهنی این درب زندان      نزاد من و توباشد یکی اگه شو الان

  مددکارم کلک زد من تو را یک لحظه در ان     جفا بس کن بیا وجدان شو یک ان

 چرا دربی نمی یابم در اینجا        چرا افتاده ام من خسته تنها

 چرا قانون بود ضد من و ما        چرا رنگم بود جرم و خطا کی گفثه اینها?

 بیا بگشا دو چشمانت تو حالا    مزن بر بال و این پر خسته ام اه

 کاتو این داگمارین کاتو عذاب است     شماره نمره ۶ زخم و درد است و سراب است

Dana says that loneliness is the most difficult matters to adapt to in Finland.

Dana writes:

“I came to Finland in April 2008 from Turkey. I’m originally from Iran. I had to leave the country because there is no religious freedom. I was forced to flee the country to Turkey. I met some representatives from the United Nations who said I could go and live in Finland as a refugee.

It was spring when I arrived at Vaasa in an apartment where there was hardly any furniture, only a bed, table, chairs a pot, spoon, fork and knife, no TV; there were no curtains and they gave me 250 euros. The social worker said that money was for food and stuff I wanted to buy.

Feeling like the loneliest person on Earth in a foreign country, I wondered where I had ended up. I couldn’t believe it. I was totally and completely alone. I thought I could make friends but this wasn’t easy. People didn’t want to talk to me when I approached them. I asked my social worker if I could bring my family. I told her I could not stand living alone this way.

She didn’t leave with much hope. The social worker said that if I wanted to bring my parents to Finland I would have to pay their plane ticket and support them financially here. The social worker said I’d have to personally pay the application fees for my parents. My mother is very sick suffering kidney complications. The social worker made me feel hopeless because it sounded like bringing my parents here would be an enormous and expensive task.

But I need my parents by my side. It’s so difficult for me to live so faraway from them all alone.

Dana believes that all people have a right to live a peaceful life in a country where they aren’t persecuted

Almost immediately after I moved to Vaasa I enrolled in a Finnish-language course. At school, it didn’t take long to figure out that I was in the wrong place. My classmates were from Africa, Bosnia, Russia, Guatemala, Ghana, China and other countries. None, however, were from Iran.

I learned to speak Finnish pretty fast. I worked hard and did my homework diligently. But then things started to go sour at the school. All of the students in my class had a relative studying there like a mother, brother, sister or at least a friend from the same country. There were no Iranians at the school. I was all alone.

The African complained to the teacher about the racism she were facing in Vaasa. All I could do is think of my parents and how to bring them to Finland. I wasn’t interested in supporting her so she turned against me for that reason. I guess it was because I was all alone and tried to be a model student. I was better than anyone at school and learned Finnish faster than any of them.

I had a different perspective back then. I didn’t want any problems with people like the Finns and with the school staff. To make a long story short, I was called in by the principal and teacher and expelled from the school. The reason? Because I could not get along with my classmates.

I was shocked. I complained to the social worker who then called one of the teachers. The principle apparently kicked me out of the school to appease my classmates. Once the principle and teacher insulted me in front of the class in the presence of all the students. It was clear that I could not stay any longer  at the school.

Immigrants turn against each other. They do that in order to show the Finns that they are better than another immigrant.

I was only a few months at that school in Vaasa. I stuck around for a year and a half and started to go to Unicef. There were some foreigners there and the Finnish they taught was very elementary. It was too easy. The hardest part, however, was being alone. Nobody was there for me to help and support me.

A friend got me an apprentice job at a home for old people. I worked there for three months for practically nothing. It was hard and physically strenuous work. There were students working there as well. When I asked them how much they made, I discovered they made a lot more than I did. Imagine, I worked eight-hour shifts five days a week and got 180 euros per month! It’s not fair! People should not be allowed to work for free, like a slave.

What kind of foreigners am I? I like to see myself as a brave person who can spot racism and is sensitive enough to even scent it when a person looks at me. To understand my suffering is to understand the meaning of time. It’s time that I am losing, precious years of my life, of being without my parents and not even having a job in Finland.

Racists in Finland are the ones who are responsible for wasting my precious time, my golden time.

I tried everything but there wasn’t any hope. I thought it would be a good idea to move to Germany where I had relatives. I did go there with the intention of never returning to Finland but I couldn’t stay there. Germany wouldn’t give me a residence permit. So I returned to Vaasa and then after a short while moved to Helsinki.

*Migrant Tales publishes on and off life histories of immigrants living in Finland. The aim of these short life stories is to get a glimpse of the joys and challenges they face in their new home country. If you want to share your story with us, please get in touch by email, migranttalesblog@gmail.com.

  1. Mia

    I knew that things are not great with immigrants in Finland but I didn’t know it was that bad. But not all the Finns are like that; there’s also those who see all the people as equals and feels ashamed of those who mistreat immigrants. Is there anything to be done to help all you who are new in Finland to be treated equally – to be treated as one of us? I would love to stand for all of you and make Finland a better place to live in if I had a chance.

  2. Sasu

    Kiintoisaa. Mielenkiintoisin oli kohta jossa hän totesi maahanmuuttajien “tappelevan” keskenään. Muituttaa meitä siitä tosiseikasta, että maahanmuuttajat ovat pienie ja epämääräinen joukko ihmisiä joilla ei ole yhtään mitään muuta yhteistä kuin “kansainvälinen tausta”. Mitä se nyt merkitsee? Koko idea että alkaisimme kuksua itseämme suomalaisia kansainvälisellä taustalla on ihan tyhmä. Termi on aivan yhtä lavea kuin maahanmuuttaja. Mitä jos sinä olet värillinen ja sinua kohdellaan ulkomaalaisena mutta sinulla ei ole kansainvälistä taustaa. Mitä heille käy kun hehän ovat suomalaisia käytökseltään mutta ulkomaalaisia ulkonäön takia. Tämä on ongelma kun ensimmäisen sukupolven värillisten maahanmuuttajien lapsien lapset varttuvat ilman kansainvälistä taustaa. Mitä he ovat sitten. Suomalaisia he eivät ainaskaan ole.

  3. D4R

    Mia: I knew that things are not great with immigrants in Finland but I didn’t know it was that bad. But not all the Finns are like that; there’s also those who see all the people as equals and feels ashamed of those who mistreat immigrants. Is there anything to be done to help all you who are new in Finland to be treated equally – to be treated as one of us? I would love to stand for all of you and make Finland a better place to live in if I had a chance.

    Thank you Mia, you’re a true Finn, your kind of people is what Finland needs more, not people who promote violence, hateret, racism and mental abuse. I wish you the best Mia. 🙂

  4. D4R

    Sasu: Kiintoisaa. Mielenkiintoisin oli kohta jossa hän totesi maahanmuuttajien “tappelevan” keskenään. Muituttaa meitä siitä tosiseikasta, että maahanmuuttajat ovat pienie ja epämääräinen joukko ihmisiä joilla ei ole yhtään mitään muuta yhteistä kuin “kansainvälinen tausta”. Mitä se nyt merkitsee? Koko idea että alkaisimme kuksua itseämme suomalaisia kansainvälisellä taustalla on ihan tyhmä. Termi on aivan yhtä lavea kuin maahanmuuttaja. Mitä jos sinä olet värillinen ja sinua kohdellaan ulkomaalaisena mutta sinulla ei ole kansainvälistä taustaa. Mitä heille käy kun hehän ovat suomalaisia käytökseltään mutta ulkomaalaisia ulkonäön takia. Tämä on ongelma kun ensimmäisen sukupolven värillisten maahanmuuttajien lapsien lapset varttuvat ilman kansainvälistä taustaa. Mitä he ovat sitten. Suomalaisia he eivät ainaskaan ole.

    Olen samaa mieltä sinun kanssa, tällä hetkellä värilliset Suomalaiset ei pidetä “oikeana” Suomalaisina vaan ulkomaalaisina tai muukalaisina mikä on aika älytön asia.

  5. Elven archer

    Mia, give me a break. You really can’t believe in anything you read from this blog. The bias of it, it’s incredible and it has been shown many many times over.

    “It was spring when I arrived at Vaasa in an apartment where there was hardly any furniture, only a bed, table, chairs a pot, spoon, fork and knife, no TV; there were no curtains and they gave me 250 euros”

    You were a refugee. Did you expect a four star hotel room? You came here to get shelter and you got it as well the basic necessities. You know, somebody has to pay for all that. One would think people running for their lives wouldn’t care less for a tv or curtains.

    “I didn’t want any problems with people like the Finns and with the school staff. To make a long story short, I was called in by the principal and teacher and expelled from the school. The reason? Because I could not get along with my classmates.”

    And why is that? You did nothing and they just expelled you from the school? I doubt it very much. But it suits this blog, everything is somebody else’s fault.

    “There were students working there as well. When I asked them how much they made, I discovered they made a lot more than I did.”

    Not true. Students get student grant and it’s less than the unemployed get.

    “Imagine, I worked eight-hour shifts five days a week and got 180 euros per month! It’s not fair!”

    That has to be on top of your normal unemployed money. It just happens to be 9 euros a day for apprenticeship * 20 days = 180 euros. That is the same for all Finns so don’t present it like you were treated somehow differently.

    And students are not even paid for their apprenticeship if they can’t make a contract on their own and then it’s like any other job so don’t expect the money for the unemployed to be the same like people working on normal contract.

    “It’s time that I am losing, precious years of my life, of being without my parents and not even having a job in Finland.”

    And who’s fault is that? Are we here in Finland responsible for your family’s troubles in your homeland? No, we are not. I’m sorry if you feel you don’t get everything you want in here but let’s remember why did you got here in the first place. Finland helped you and what do you do? Complain that they did not help you enough. So you are certainly free to go and find some better place full of more willing people to help, are you not? Just keep in mind, we didn’t cause your troubles.

    “Racists in Finland are the ones who are responsible for wasting my precious time, my golden time.”

    That does not make any sense.

    “I tried everything but there wasn’t any hope.”

    Like this: “I was only a few months at that school in Vaasa”? But of course, the racists kicked you out so what can you do about it. Yeah, right.

    • Migrant Tales

      –“Racists in Finland are the ones who are responsible for wasting my precious time, my golden time.” That does not make any sense.

      Sure it does. It makes a lot of sense: When people hinder you from progressing because of your background what happens is you lose time. Time, as even you know, never comes back.

      I think it is one of the most profound statements made by Dana and you did not understand it. It’s a bit like the whole issue of cultural diversity and its challenges. You just don’t get it. Et hiffaa.

  6. Elven archer

    “Is there anything to be done to help all you who are new in Finland to be treated equally – to be treated as one of us? ”

    Please show me a single point in that story which somehow shows that she was not treated equally.

  7. Yossie

    Daaaaaaamn… so many things in here that I dont know where to start

    Comparison to current immigration and that of the karelians or finns in 1900th century is rather laughable. Situations were totally different. US, Canada, sweden needed manual labor workforce. Nowdays those manual labor jobs are going to china and other parts of asia. When it comes to karelians, they were finns, spoke finnish and there was little cultural issues. Also they were only given a small lot of land if anything deep in the forest.

    About the girl’s issues. What is the problem? The problem is:

    “I’m originally from Iran. I had to leave the country because there is no religious freedom.”

    The problem is IRAN. The nutjob islamists in rule there. It cant be that its Finland’s responsibilty to take in and take care of all the opressed people in the world. It is the responsibilty of IRAN to take care of its own people. Just like Finland took care of its own after the war.

    “My classmates were from Africa, Bosnia, Russia, Guatemala, Ghana, China and other countries. None, however, were from Iran.”

    But isnt this the multicultural dream come true? All the people from different cultures studying together! Such on enriching experiment isnt it! But what? Things didnt work out too well?

    “Immigrants turn against each other.”

    Good luck making your multicultural dream work.

    “The hardest part, however, was being alone. Nobody was there for me to help and support me.”

    Followed by

    “A friend got me an apprentice job”

    Does these not contradict each other? Alone – has a friend. No help – got me a job? What?

    “A friend got me an apprentice job at a home for old people. I worked there for three months for practically nothing. It was hard and physically strenuous work. There were students working there as well. When I asked them how much they made, I discovered they made a lot more than I did. Imagine, I worked eight-hour shifts five days a week and got 180 euros per month! It’s not fair! People should not be allowed to work for free, like a slave.”

    This is something I can agree with her. This is such a piece of bullshit if I have ever saw one. Got me really pissed off here. If you do job, you are totally entitled to get paid. Even if you were an apprentice, your time and effort certainly is more valuable than 180 euros a month.

  8. eyeopener

    Hi Mia.

    Be welcome to this thread.

    Foreigners are very well aware of the 80% of the Finns that go along with foreigners very well. Of course there are misunderstandings, differences. But these issues can be aranged when people come together and learn from each other. This is a long process.

    Forget the people like Elf here.

    He/she doesn’t like foreigners. Read yourself and make up your mind!! Are the things he/sne brings forward familiar to you.?? Have you ever seen situations like Elf is presenting? Do you think he delivers the right evidence??

    Of course you can help!! Strengthen yourself and share with us your thoughts.

    A united people can’t be conquered (Pablo Neruda).

  9. I am

    Mia,
    But not all the Finns are like that;
    Sure our dear friend Mia, we foreigners know that
    Have a great evening Mia
    Smile

  10. eyeopener

    Elf.

    You are an absolute “nitwit”, a “nobody”, an empty skull, an “infantile zombie”. When you have learned to change your pampers yourself, gort rid of your BLABLABLABLA language, got yourself at least a elementary education THEN It MAYBE TIME TO LISTEN TO YOU, This moment -as it seems to me- will be somewhere in a far future!!

    But, if they kick out H. maybe you should apply for his job.

    It only thing that I have to do is coming to your ZOO and feed you candy-bars!!

  11. Elven archer

    “It’s a bit like the whole issue of cultural diversity and its challenges”

    Like how? Getting expelled from school and blaming everybody else but herself? That seems to be the major theme in this cultural diversity we mostly get.

  12. Elven archer

    “You are an absolute “nitwit”, a “nobody”, an empty skull, an “infantile zombie”. When you have learned to change your pampers yourself, gort rid of your BLABLABLABLA language, got yourself at least a elementary education THEN It MAYBE TIME TO LISTEN TO YOU, This moment -as it seems to me- will be somewhere in a far future!!”

    Nice arguments there. Oh wait, just insults and zero arguments. Well, maybe next time you do better (some say wonders can happen).

  13. Elven archer

    “The problem is IRAN. The nutjob islamists in rule there. It cant be that its Finland’s responsibilty to take in and take care of all the opressed people in the world.”

    But it goes even farther. We must, many say, also embrace the religion and the culture from those areas they are running away from! That we must embrace the values from their home societies which they run away from. The values which constitutes the societies they must flee. So don’t criticize Islam or you are labeled as an islamophobic.

    In Rovaniemi a couple of years ago there were problems with some immigrant men harassing women, especially the immigrant women.

    The immigrant women complained that what was the point for them to come here if their homeland follows them. I ask the same question. That’s the basis for me criticizing this multicultural cultural relativist madness.

  14. Elven archer

    Our responsibility is to make sure that the people coming here are safe. That the values present in some societies, which they are running away from, don’t get a slightest foothold in here. That is why I am strongly against the cultural relativism.

    • Migrant Tales

      –That the values present in some societies, which they are running away from, don’t get a slightest foothold in here. That is why I am strongly against the cultural relativism.

      Elven, do you know what cultural relativism is? Is it even practiced in Finland? Cultural relativism is a concept made by the anthropologist Franz Boas against so-called armchair anthropologists/evolutionists who saw the world ethnocentrically. When I was studying anthropology in the 1970s we heard the term quite a lot of time. But let’s use another better term: cultural diversity and the role of mutual acceptance and respect.

      Sounds better and its what the law prescribes.

  15. I am

    Nice arguments there. Oh wait, just insults and zero arguments. Well, maybe next time you do better (some say wonders can happen
    Well,
    If u give Zero argument u will recieve just zero

  16. I am

    Yossie hi, ….Imagine, I worked eight-hour shifts five days a week and got 180 euros per month! It’s not fair! People should not be allowed to work for free, like a slave.”

    This is something I can agree with her. This is such a piece of bullshit if I have ever saw one.
    Got me really pissed off here. If you do job, you are totally entitled to get paid. Even if you were an apprentice, your time and effort certainly is more valuable than 180 euros a month.

    So finally u r a bit agree, he he he

    • Migrant Tales

      –Got me really pissed off here. If you do job, you are totally entitled to get paid. Even if you were an apprentice, your time and effort certainly is more valuable than 180 euros a month.

      Totally agree. It can turn into a form of exploitation. Free work without the employer making a commitment, like hiring you and paying you a decent salary.

  17. Elven archer

    “If u give Zero argument u will recieve just zero”

    I guess now I know what Gulliver felt like.

    In what world it is not an argument for example ti present that the extra money they pay you is 9 € a day for apprenticeship? So this Dana complaining about her getting 180 € a month is clearly on top of the normal amount the unemployed get in this country (9 * 20 = 180). That is normal. That is what the unemployed get. So stop whining about it and thinking everybody is against you in this country, everybody treating you differently.

    I actually believe most people in this blog get treated differently but that is clearly because what you are in an individual level. Who would like a paranoid individual running around accusing everybody of racism with made up excuses?

  18. Elven archer

    “Got me really pissed off here. If you do job, you are totally entitled to get paid. Even if you were an apprentice, your time and effort certainly is more valuable than 180 euros a month.”

    Learn to READ. 180 on top of it. Learn how the well fare here IS. Get a job if that is not enough for you.

    And I agree, it’s too little. But hey, you are welcomed to sit on your ass and get a normal amount of support (without that extra 180 €). But try to get into your heads, it’s the same for everyone here.

    So don’t present it like it’s discrimination in your sob stories. Getting kicked out of the school without reason. Everybody was against you (because that’s how racist the Finns are?). That’s ridiculous. And people here are just buying it. A classic example of prejudice: it’s evil Finns, so of course I believe you. What ever you say, it’s evil racist Finns. Give me a break. These stories are racist presenting the Finns as racists. Nobody gets kicked out of the school without reason in here. Nobody. It’s also very very difficult to get kicked out of the school in any case. The classmates didn’t get along with me so I was kicked out? Really? Oh. My. God (The Flying Spaghetti Monster).

  19. Elven archer

    And sorry, Yossie. I used your quote and went from there to a whole different matter. Sorry. My talked was general in nature, not for you personally.

  20. Elven archer

    “Elven, do you know what cultural relativism is? Is it even practiced in Finland?”

    Yes. Yes.

    I understand the theory very well. In practice in our context you could summarize it’s applications with: there’s nothing wrong with Islam and it’s values.

  21. Mark

    Elven

    I can see that you are practicing the same kind of zero human dignity as usual. It’s hard to imagine a world that would revolve to your kind of cynicism.

    But it goes even farther. We must, many say, also embrace the religion and the culture from those areas they are running away from! That we must embrace the values from their home societies which they run away from. The values which constitutes the societies they must flee. So don’t criticize Islam or you are labeled as an islamophobic.

    Let’s be honest: it’s doesn’t go ‘even farther’, rather it starts with this viewpoint for you. This is your starting point, that you see the values and culture of other Islamic nations, nay, of Muslims, as somehow being inferior. Everything you hear, which is basically what you read in your favourite racist and bigoted forums, is then used to confirm this truth to you.

    But the Islamic world is not as you see it. It is not a single entity, not a single core set of values that you can stick a label on, in this case, a very negative label. The Islamic world is huge, Elven. HUGE. Vast, beyond your comprehension! I mean, it involves over 1.5 billion people. There are 57 countries in the world with majority Muslim populations, and a great many more with minority populations. Muslim countries account for nearly 13% of the world’s GDP. Not only that, but as a bloc, the Muslim world runs a trade surplus, with 13.47% of the world’s exports and 9.03% of the world’s imports. The combined total GDP (with purchase power parity) is $7,740 billion.

    Do you honestly think that ALL these 1.5 billion people live by values that you cannot identity with in any way?

    Let’s take values that are close to the heart of most Finns – FAMILY! Did you stop for one second to actually identify with Dana’s story and her detachment from her family? You went straight for the jugular in terms of looking for weaknesses in the story, shifting blame and trying to completely discredit any criticism that she made at all, missing many, many important points about the challenges facing immigrants. But worse, you failed to acknowledge her basic condition – living in a country, with no family relatives, and no close friends that understood the country she comes from or her native language. Whatever else has happened to Dana, this on its own is an absolutely devastating and traumatic experience. And the flat she had to live in was, as is easily imagined, white walls, plain and simple furniture, no colour, no character and no comfort. And the irony is that you speak about her wanting a “four star hotel room”. How far away can you place yourself in relation to another human being? It cannot be much further. This is the absolute essence of life, of purpose and identity – to have family, to have friends, to have a pleasant home, to have some kind of shared culture and knowledge. Take those things away, and we are bereft. I wonder if you would or could ever ever understand that?!

    You are so far from reality Elven; I mean a reality that is open to other people’s reality, that takes in something of the vastness of the world and its peoples. I don’t know where you were born or raised, or where you have lived your life, but it seems to me that you see much of the world beyond these shores through the tiniest, tiniest of lenses, and yet you still feel qualified to make judgements.

    As usual, you have insulted Dana, the immigrant, many times over, denied her the most basic of human dignity and respect and shown absolutely no desire to expand your view of the world or to understand someone from another country and culture. Rather than take the opportunity to find out more, you simply use her as a means of furthering your own prejudiced-based political agenda, with verbal bullying as your leverage.

    You are clearly a ‘smart’ person Elven, with linguistic skills. But there is much much more to being a human being than merely being smart! It is your character that fails you. How to build character in those that don’t have it? Now that is a question worth asking!

  22. I am

    Dear Elf,
    There is Gulliver but just in ur world and not in a real world, a real life
    R u treat people equal?
    U aware about all kinds of life in here yes??
    What makes u to think that u r right all the time and others are wrong am very sure that u have kindness in ur sweet heart but why u dont put a few of ur pretty words here?
    Dont bite , we love u

  23. D4R

    Yossie: The problem is IRAN. The nutjob islamists in rule there. It cant be that its Finland’s responsibilty to take in and take care of all the opressed people in the world. It is the responsibilty of IRAN to take care of its own people. Just like Finland took care of its own after the war

    You’re insulting the muslim people in Finland, i suggest you start behaving, this kind of insults will not be tolerated here, this is not Homma where you guys spit on us, there’re different rules set here and you should obey.

  24. Mark

    Sorry, I added and edited a bit from my post to Elven above, because it’s important to get the full scale of his ignorance into some kind of persective, and that is not easy, because the gap in his humanity and his compassion is so huge!!!

  25. D4R

    Elven archer: Nice arguments there. Oh wait, just insults and zero arguments. Well, maybe next time you do better (some say wonders can happen).

    Like you have an arugument yourself, you never make a point, you just shoot empty, you’re one meaningless add to this thread.

  26. D4R

    Elven archer: “If u give Zero argument u will recieve just zero”

    I guess now I know what Gulliver felt like.

    In what world it is not an argument for example ti present that the extra money they pay you is 9 € a day for apprenticeship? So this Dana complaining about her getting 180 € a month is clearly on top of the normal amount the unemployed get in this country (9 * 20 = 180). That is normal. That is what the unemployed get. So stop whining about it and thinking everybody is against you in this country, everybody treating you differently.

    I actually believe most people in this blog get treated differently but that is clearly because what you are in an individual level. Who would like a paranoid individual running around accusing everybody of racism with made up excuses?

    Why do you have to be so mean? where’s your compassion to fellow humanbeings?

  27. I am

    And sorry, Yossie. I used your quote and went from there to a whole different matter. Sorry. My talked was general in nature, not for you personally
    ha ha ha ha, Oh dont worry please
    Just be happy and bite people
    U used his beautiful quote and u made it one of the most beautiful quote in this world LOL

  28. andi

    A very moving tale, and unfortunately one which I have heard too many times from many immigrants who I have met not just in Finland but in other countries as well. Things have changed in the 18 years I have been living in Finland, but there is still a very long way to go. One of the worst things here is the exploitation of immigrants by giving them ‘training placements’ for which they are lucky to get a few hundred euros a month. I was watching Suora Linja on tv the other day and they were interviewing a guy who came to Finland as a refugee on his own as a minor. He was lucky to be sent to Suonenjoki where there is a very good service for unaccompanied underage refugees. The service is under threat of closure, which will be a big mistake.

    I am a voluntary immigrant, but I feel compassion for those who have no choice. Even after knowing several people who have come here as refugees and talking to many more I still have trouble imagining just what they have been through to get here. People like Dana need all the support sympathy and perhaps most important, understanding we can give them.

  29. Toni

    D4R: “Thank you Mia, you’re a true Finn, your kind of people is what Finland needs more, not people who promote violence, hateret, racism and mental abuse. I wish you the best Mia”

    99% of Finns agree. That is much better number than in any other country. So be happy you are here… and not in France, Switzerland, UK, etc.

    Why don’t you write how great living here is in Finland compared to all other countries???
    I just don’t understand your motives why you use this hate speech and create racism???

  30. Mark

    Toni

    I just don’t understand your motives why you use this hate speech and create racism???

    Only an emotionally immature person would blame other people for creating their ‘racism’. We have to take responsibility for our own feelings, thoughts and attitudes. If you become a racist, then there is no-one to blame. There is not condition where ‘racism’ is a legitimate response. It is a failure in human understanding to decide that people of another group are ‘less’.

    You are free to criticise elements of other cultures or our own society in Finland. This has nothing to do with freedom of speech or not being able to carry out cultural criticism. This is about becoming judgmental of people.

    D4R is not racist to talk about racism, to promote tolerance or to condemn racist Finns. You should defend him – if you are not a racist, then there is no reason why you shouldn’t defend him!

  31. Elven archer

    “This is your starting point, that you see the values and culture of other Islamic nations, nay, of Muslims, as somehow being inferior.”

    Oh no. I think our beloved and wise state prosecutor Mika Illman said once in his infinite wisdom that you can’t say aloud that some cultures are better than others. So I won’t. I could say for example that the Nazi culture was worse but if it’s so forbidden or at least bad I won’t. Obviously every culture is as valuable and good like the rest, uh? 😀

    And some say there’s not cultural relativism in Finland…

    And obviously Islamic nations are doing pretty darn well! The rights of women, the rights of sexual minorities, the rights of being emo(sic!) and so on. All is well. Actually it’s possible you could call the Islamic nations the places where tolerance blooms, everybody is accepted in there. There are no collectives breathing down you neck, you just live happily as an individual minding your own business in there. Lovely places, really. The literature, the arts, the science, people expressing different views, wearing clothes like they want to, meeting the opposite sex if they want to, it all just blooms like a beautiful flower.

    If somebody says differently, well, I blame the bad governments. Yeah, the governments are doing all this on the street level, watching relatives and neighbors and so on. Who’s daughter kissed a boy. Who’s daughter didn’t have her hijab on. And what comes after. Yeah, it’s not the values, the culture, it’s the government. It’s always the government or local beliefs. Local beliefs in every Muslim country.

    Why would I call that inferior? Why would I call that bad? I won’t. Obviously.

  32. I am

    Dear Toni,
    Please understand D4R please,
    His motives says to us ,
    Being kind is better than being racist, just that and am very sure that u like it because u dont like racist.
    Best to u

  33. Mark

    Elven

    Obviously every culture is as valuable and good like the rest, uh? 😀

    You tell me? Nazism was not a culture – it was a political ideology. I’m sure you can critique ideologies. I’m sure you can critique religions if you do it in a way that is respectful of the people that practice that religion. It is possible. It happens within and without the Islamic world every day, Elven. If you made even the smallest effort, you would see that.

    But maybe it’s an intellectual challenge that is beyond you.

  34. Mark

    And obviously Islamic nations are doing pretty darn well! The rights of women, the rights of sexual minorities, the rights of being emo(sic!) and so on. All is well.

    You mean all is black and white? Hardly. Why do you even wish to present it as such, or is it so that you can justify ‘all is black’? It seems that way.

  35. Toni

    Mark: “Only an emotionally immature person would blame other people for creating their ‘racism’.”

    It is well know how Päivi Lipponen created racism with her hate speech about Tampere-case.
    It is just a matter of view to see it.

    Mark: “If you become a racist, then there is no-one to blame.”

    I am not a racist. My foreign friends don’t think so, at least I hope so. 😉 Who knows…

    Mark: “It is a failure in human understanding to decide that people of another group are ‘less’”

    What do you mean “less”? Some get less payd, some get less regognition, some get less children, some get less years to live… some are slaves in Arabs, some get killed being christian in Africa, some get butchered in China, etc.

    Finns don’t think any people are “less” but 99% of people in the world think some are less. The worst place now is Africa., not Finlans as you keep telling.

    Mark: “D4R is not racist to talk about racism”

    WOW! DID I SAY HE/SHE IS A RACIST?????!
    Why do you label me????? It is so easy for you…

  36. Toni

    Mark: “Only an emotionally immature person would blame other people for creating their ‘racism’.”

    So you don’t blame Halla-aho and Hirvisaari creating racism? MT keeps telling the are racists like Sisu without any explanation.. do you have any?

    Mark: “Nazism was not a culture – it was a political ideology.”

    And Islam is not a political culture even they have their own laws?
    Why natzism was not a culture??

    Culture is a view that a group shares, like Facisism, Socialism, etc?

  37. Elven archer

    “Do you honestly think that ALL these 1.5 billion people live by values that you cannot identity with in any way?”

    Do you think there’s a religion called Islam? Do you think they just call it Islam for kicks? Or do you think there are reasons which differentiate it from other religions? Do you think there are dogmas which are held dear amongst the believers? If someone is cherry picking, it’s not really Islam and they should not call themselves Muslims. I know some people are quite secular. That is not the essence of Islam. It’s very very good that they don’t give Islam such a hold of their throats like some people do but you can’t thank Islam for that. You have to thank them and the secular values (for them being not religious, of course). You can’t thank Islam for it when someone doesn’t obey the core dogmas of Islam.

    And you must understand, there’s a general picture of it all. The general entity which represents Islam. Otherwise we could not identify such a thing like Islam at all. Therefore it has certain abilities, features common to it. I am talking about the entity, I am talking about those features. I am *not* talking about individual worshippers.

    Even the most secular Muslim nations like Indonesia are… well… religious. There was a scandal when Michelle Obama gave a handshake to one of the ministers because she is a woman. There is a special honor police checking woman’s skirts and absurd things like that in Aceh.Turkey is one of the most secular because there’s an army watching the secular nature of the country. And still… A coincidence, I’m sure. Like every one of those nations.

  38. Elven archer

    “You tell me? Nazism was not a culture – it was a political ideology.”

    That too. It still doesn’t change the fact that it fits every aspect of what constitutes a culture. But Islam is also a political ideology, a religion, a law system. Not all accept it and live by it, but all is there in the core of Islam.

  39. Elven archer

    “There is Gulliver but just in ur world and not in a real world, a real life
    R u treat people equal?”

    I absolutely, and make no mistake here, treat every individual I confront equally. That doesn’t mean I like everybody. That means I judge people based on what they do and say. I don’t judge them by their reference groups.

  40. Mark

    Elven

    Actually it’s possible you could call the Islamic nations the places where tolerance blooms, everybody is accepted in there.

    Elven, stop and think for a second. This is 1.5 billion people you are talking about. All cultures have their moors and their taboos, their social rules and their legal sanctions.

    Do you think that cannabis laws in the West are draconian? Many researchers do; they think that criminalisation causes more problems than it solves. Did you know that Iran has some of the most liberal laws on cannabis use in the world?

    The rights of women, the rights of sexual minorities, the rights of being emo(sic!) and so on.

    Indonesia: percentage of women in the labour market: 52% (Finland is 60%)

    Iran: carries out more sex change operations that any other country in the world except Thailand. The sex change is also recognised on the birth certificate, unlike in the USA.

    Actually it’s possible you could call the Islamic nations the places where tolerance blooms, everybody is accepted in there. There are no collectives breathing down you neck, you just live happily as an individual minding your own business in there. Lovely places, really.

    Brainwashed. Some day you will open your eyes to the world and it will surprise you. It is not what you think.

    The literature, the arts, the science, people expressing different views, wearing clothes like they want to, meeting the opposite sex if they want to, it all just blooms like a beautiful flower.

    Universities in OIC (Islamic) countries: 1460, which is 15% of the world’s universities. Turkey and Iran have the highest ranking universities, followed by Egypt, Kuwait and Malaysia. However, Pakistan has some of the best universities in terms of cited research. All of these universities have extensive international co-operation in their fields of research.

    Arabian Nights is one of the World’s finest epic works of literature. The world of Islamic literature is vast, truly vast. Many of the West’s most famous writers have also been influenced by this huge pantheon, including Shakespeare (Merchant of Venice, Othello etc.), Daniel Defoe (Robinson Crusoe), Rousseau (Emile), Rudyard Kipling etc.

    The Taj Mahal is one of the world’s great wonders built by Muslims, as is the Saladin Citadel of Cairo, while several of the world’s great wonders have come from the ancestors of today’s Muslims, including the great Pyramids of Egypt, the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, the Lighthouse of Alexandria. Modern wonders of the Islamic world include Palm Islands in Dubai, and the world’s tallest building the Burj Khalifa (also in Dubai).

    But hey, you keep slagging off the Islamic world and you will just keep showing yourself up to be a ignoramus, fed on media articles and prejudice.

  41. Mark

    Toni

    So you don’t blame Halla-aho and Hirvisaari creating racism? MT keeps telling the are racists like Sisu without any explanation.. do you have any?

    An article can be racist, and certainly people can convince other people to adopt racist attitudes, but at the end of the say, we are each responsible for the beliefs and attitudes we adopt to the world. Don’t you agree?

    Finns don’t think any people are “less” but 99% of people in the world think some are less. The worst place now is Africa., not Finlans as you keep telling.

    I know many Finns personally who have lived in and visited Africa and they do not speak about it like this. Have you visited? Let me guess….

    Less means ‘less’. Less deserving of respect and less capable as human beings of being morally equivalent to Westerners.

    Mark: “D4R is not racist to talk about racism”

    WOW! DID I SAY HE/SHE IS A RACIST?????!
    Why do you label me????? It is so easy for you…

    Toni, keep your shirt on. Where did I label you? I was talking about D4R and what I think about his talking about racism and whether that qualifies him as a racist. It is your conscience as to whether you think D4R is a racist, but my firm belief is that he is not. On the contrary, he is someone I admire and respect, for his articulateness and his moral courage to stand up to fucking idiots like YOU. 😀

  42. Mark

    Toni

    Mark: “Nazism was not a culture – it was a political ideology.”

    And Islam is not a political culture even they have their own laws?
    Why natzism was not a culture??

    Culture is a view that a group shares, like Facisism, Socialism, etc?

    The boundaries between culture, popular ideologies and religious beliefs naturally blur at the edges. But, Nazism was a short-lived political ideology (in terms of popularity) in Germany and today, the German national identity is independent of that period of political history. If the ideas of Nazism had remained popular for hundreds of years, then the boundaries between political ideology and social and moral belief would certainly have blurred.

    Political ideologies contribute to culture and specifically to ‘subcultures’, without question. But they are often short-lived, dependent on particular living exponents of the belief and also on popularity. Islam as a belief has permeated the cultures of a great many people, with large parts of the world being influenced to greater or lesser extents. The point is that a great many people identify themselves as Muslims. How many people identify themselves as Nazis or Fascists, or even totalitarian Socialists? Most would deny these identities, even if there are significant similarities.

    There are many different political expressions of Islam. Hell, there are very many religious expressions of Islam. Many Islamic countries have secular governments, while only 6 are considered actual Islamic States. 19 of the world’s Islamic countries are officially secular governments. including Indonesia, Turkey, and several European countries. Many Islamic countries are not Islamic States but nevertheless have Islam as their official religion: Morrocco, Bangladesh, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, Algeria, Sudan etc.

  43. justicedemon

    It is quite amusing to hear the self-confessed irreligious pontificating about religion, evidently believing that this will have the slightest impact on religious devotion, practice or tradition.

    I can only suggest that you check a reputable dictionary to discover what Islam means and then ask yourself if you have any idea what it would be like to be Islamic in that sense. If the honest answer is “no“, then a little humility is in order, based on the recognition that you quite literally have no idea what you are talking about.

    What we are hearing at the moment is a lot of facile tosh based on the idea that religion is merely propositional ideology. That is very much like saying that nationality is the Constitution or the words of the national anthem. These things are products and consequences of nationality, but they are not nationality itself.

    The reason why we are hearing so much about religion as propositional ideology is that this is all that the irreligious perceive when they encounter religious tradition. This attitude resembles the assumption that if a modern city-dweller only reads enough of the Kalevala, then he will be able to write a new and authentic cycle without actually living the entire life of an original creator of the verses that were read.

  44. Mark

    Elven

    I know some people are quite secular. That is not the essence of Islam.

    Says you? 😀

    You are extremely ignorant of the Islamic world. 19 countries that have a majority of Muslims in their population are officially secular governed. Indonesia alone is 200 million people.

    So you, not a Muslim, are going to decide what the essence of Islam is?

    Elven, you just dig yourself deeper and deeper….

  45. Mark

    Elven

    And you must understand, there’s a general picture of it all. The general entity which represents Islam. Otherwise we could not identify such a thing like Islam at all.

    So you are an expert on Islam? Tell me what you know, without looking anything up, off the top of your head? What are the subjects of Islam that you personally have researched and know about and for how long? What texts did you consult, what people did you talk to, what courses did you take? How much do you REALLY KNOW about Islam and Islamic countries.

    Things like this:

    Even the most secular Muslim nations like Indonesia are… well… religious.

    OMFG! Such erudite learning, my friend.

    However, this piece of ignorance I will certainly have to pull you up on:

    Turkey is one of the most secular because there’s an army watching the secular nature of the country. And still… A coincidence, I’m sure. Like every one of those nations.

    Do you think that those army generals consider themselves to any less Muslims than other Muslims in Turkey, just because they prefer a secular state? Ignorant fuck! The Arab Spring has brought a new wave of secular Islamic politicians, many of whom are part of Islamist parties – the difference being that they believe secularism is a way to deliver on Islamic principles. Let me see what you know about this, seeing as you are the expert on Islam and Islamic politics. Who and what countries am I talking about, do you think?

    And this below is the single biggest fucking cop out I’ve heard in this debate about immigration:

    I am *not* talking about individual worshippers.

    Then what the fuck are you talking about? If what you say doesn’t actually relate to actual people, actual Muslims, then what the fuck are you talking about?

    At least have the courage to admit that what you write about relates to people and that these people have the right to understand that criticism as a criticism of them as people, as holders of belief, as practitioners of religion, as actors in their societies, as human beings born equal to you.

    If, and I really doubt this, you are *not* talking about the people, then you will have absolutely no problem with ‘the people’ moving here to Finland! Somehow, that doesn’t seem to represent your position!

  46. Toni

    Mark: Now I go to sleep, but do you think it is ok when the News tell the religion of the rapist’s victime’s but not the rapist’s religion? Telling that about the rapists would be racism?

    Perhaps tomorrow you might answer my questions I asked few hours ago on that other page…

  47. Mark

    Elven

    I absolutely, and make no mistake here, treat every individual I confront equally.

    You are rude to everyone? Including your mother? 😉 Yikes! 😀

  48. Mark

    Elven

    I don’t judge them by their reference groups.

    Good, so you have no problems with Muslims coming to Finland, or Somalis, or any nationality. Each indivual will be judged as to their character on an individual basis?

    Great, welcome to the human family, Elven. Glad you could eventually make it.

  49. justicedemon

    mark

    And this below is the single biggest fucking cop out I’ve heard in this debate about immigration:

    I am *not* talking about individual worshippers.

    Then what the fuck are you talking about? If what you say doesn’t actually relate to actual people, actual Muslims, then what the fuck are you talking about?

    I sometimes need to remind myself that many Finns grew up with this typical Alko doublethink mindset, which was the reasoning behind international advertising of Finlandia Vodka back in the day:

    “We have no desire to promote alcohol consumption – only to advertise our brand names”

    As Neil Hardwick pointed out at the time, what this means is that everybody should know that Finlandia Vodka exists, but nobody should drink it.

    Hardwick added a footnote to the effect that the associated advertising campaign had been designed with these aims in mind, and was proving highly successful. 🙂

  50. Elven archer

    “Ignorant fuck!”

    And there’s the “matters argue, not people” Mark we all know and love.

    In summary you just ignored every cultural study there is. You basically said there is not such thing as Islamic culture or if there is it doesn’t differ from the Western culture regarding matters like the women’s rights, the rights of sexual minorities and the attitudes against them, values in general, right to walk the streets wearing bikinis, right to express yourself in art, literacy and so on, right to draw a religious character, right to say that a certain individual was just a warlord, right to date whoever you want. It’s all the same. Oookaayyyy… You went on great lengths to present these countries as anecdotes. That was the funniest act I’ve seen on… well… I guess ever on this topic.

    “The Arab Spring has brought a new wave of secular Islamic politicians”

    Yes, very secular Salafists, Islamists and Muslims which is probable the world record of misusing the word “secular”.

  51. Elven archer

    “So you are an expert on Islam?”

    Actually, very much so. I am. What? You got your labels mixed up? Hurry, make new ones. Hope they stick.

  52. Elven archer

    I have said enough. One has to be careful these days.

    “Good, so you have no problems with Muslims coming to Finland, or Somalis, or any nationality. Each indivual will be judged as to their character on an individual basis?”

    I object to certain Individuals coming to Finland who sometimes happen to be Muslims and sometimes not. You know, culture has some effect on you, and usually a way more than some. It doesn’t define you as an individual but it affects certain probabilities of what you are and what you stand for. But I very much would like to see an immigration policy which was about individuals and nothing but individuals. It would even solve most of our problems with the immigration. Sadly, it’s not the case at the moment. And when making policies conserning prosesses that can’t handle people individually, then you must make generalizations, use those probabilities. To look at the big picture.

    I don’t like it. I would change that if I could. I try to change that. But at the moment it is what it is. And working with these restrictions I would say that it’s very important to look at the big picture. Is it always right? No. Of course not. But Finland’s foremost duty is to it’s people. Duty to the people living here.

    • Mark

      Elven

      So you don’t speak Arabic and still you want me to believe you are an expert on Islam?

      I object to certain Individuals coming to Finland who sometimes happen to be Muslims and sometimes not. You know, culture has some effect on you, and usually a way more than some.

      So, Elf, one minute they just happen to be Muslim, and the next, it’s to do with their Muslim culture! Make your mind up.

      But I very much would like to see an immigration policy which was about individuals and nothing but individuals.

      Hmmm…now I’m waiting for the contradiction…

      It doesn’t define you as an individual but it affects certain probabilities of what you are and what you stand for…then you must make generalizations, use those probabilities

      And there it is. You do not have to make generalisations at all, or use probabilities. You cannot predict from probabilities which individuals will have a difficulties or will not integrate. If you use those probabilities to deny entry to the entire group because of the potential actions of a very very small minority, you have successfully created a system of gross prejudice against individuals. You cannot have your cake and eat it, Elven.

      This is not about deciding who are the best immigrants. You cannot predict that. Some will find it easier in the short term, but you cannot speak about the long term. And if you decide that you are going to look at employment levels or crime levels, or RELIGION and use this as a criteria for allowing immigrants into Finland, then you have blatantly failed to treat people as individuals. Not only that, but you have contravened the Finnish constitution that says people shall not be discriminated against on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion.

      There is so much about Finland that you simply do not comprehend! And likewise, you have no real concept of the Muslim world.

      You are a self-proclaimed jackboot pseudo-sociologist/judge and yet you have no idea about Islam. You spout propaganda, dredged from the Internet and hate forums, and use that to defend your own hateful prejudices against people of religion, and specifically Muslims.

      Ignorance breeds arrogance!

  53. Elven archer

    “prosesses that can’t handle people individually”

    I should clarify that yes, in the paper they handle you “individually” giving you your own case number and such. But the processes don’t measure you, what you are as a person. Usually they can’t even tell for certain if the person’s name is what he claims it to be. They don’t tell what are your values. How is your ethics. What is your view of the world. What kind of world the person would like to build. Does the person believe that women have the same rights as men. And so on. It would be hard to implement, quite hard, but it’s feasible.

  54. justicedemon

    Elf

    But I very much would like to see an immigration policy which was about individuals and nothing but individuals.

    As far as I can tell, the Aliens Act is entirely formulated in terms of individual applicants or holders of rights, and has no collective norms whatsoever (with the arguable exception of the Schengen group visa). This is the principal expression of Finnish immigration policy. Perhaps you can explain what you meant by your remark and show us which aspects of the Aliens Act you would choose to amend and how.

  55. D4R

    andi: A very moving tale, and unfortunately one which I have heard too many times from many immigrants who I have met not just in Finland but in other countries as well. Things have changed in the 18 years I have been living in Finland, but there is still a very long way to go. One of the worst things here is the exploitation of immigrants by giving them ‘training placements’ for which they are lucky to get a few hundred euros a month. I was watching Suora Linja on tv the other day and they were interviewing a guy who came to Finland as a refugee on his own as a minor. He was lucky to be sent to Suonenjoki where there is a very good service for unaccompanied underage refugees. The service is under threat of closure, which will be a big mistake.

    I am a voluntary immigrant, but I feel compassion for those who have no choice. Even after knowing several people who have come here as refugees and talking to many more I still have trouble imagining just what they have been through to get here. People like Dana need all the support sympathy and perhaps most important, understanding we can give them.

    Thank you andi, a very few people come to this thread giving compassion and understanding to us.

  56. D4R

    Toni: D4R: “Thank you Mia, you’re a true Finn, your kind of people is what Finland needs more, not people who promote violence, hateret, racism and mental abuse. I wish you the best Mia”

    99% of Finns agree. That is much better number than in any other country. So be happy you are here… and not in France, Switzerland, UK, etc.

    Why don’t you write how great living here is in Finland compared to all other countries???
    I just don’t understand your motives why you use this hate speech and create racism???

    You’re one confused individual and you don’t know what you’re talking about, i suggest you come back to me but make sure you start to construct your thoughts before you start making comments to me.

  57. D4R

    Toni: So you don’t blame Halla-aho and Hirvisaari creating racism? MT keeps telling the are racists like Sisu without any explanation.. do you have any?

    Kansan Uutisten toimittaja väitti artikkelissaan Suomen Sisua ääriryhmäksi
    Tammikuussa 2008 Länsiväylä-lehti luonnehti järjestöä ”natsihenkiseksi”
    uusnatseja tutkinut dosentti sekä Suojelupoliisin ja Keskusrikospoliisin edustajat. Heidän arvioihinsa perustuen jutussa todettiin, että pääkaupunkiseudulla toimii joitakin ”natsihenkisiä” ryhmiä, ja nimeltä mainittiin Lepakkojengi ja Suomen Sisu. Lehdellä oli perusteet käyttää termiä ”natsihenkinen”, koska se perustui osin viranomaisarvioihin.

  58. D4R

    Toni: WOW! DID I SAY HE/SHE IS A RACIST?????!
    Why do you label me????? It is so easy for you…

    But you did accuse me of creating of racism. remember this statement of yours:

    Toni: I just don’t understand your motives why you use this hate speech and create racism???

    • Migrant Tales

      –But you did accuse me of creating of racism. remember this statement of yours:

      D4R, this is an old ploy used by anti-immigration to turn around the debate and accuse you of being a “racist.” It’s as absurd as calling Jews in concentration camps “SS officers or Nazis.”

      This is an old trick we’ve seen many times used on Migrant Tales.

  59. D4R

    Elven archer: “Do you honestly think that ALL these 1.5 billion people live by values that you cannot identity with in any way?”

    Do you think there’s a religion called Islam? Do you think they just call it Islam for kicks? Or do you think there are reasons which differentiate it from other religions? Do you think there are dogmas which are held dear amongst the believers? If someone is cherry picking, it’s not really Islam and they should not call themselves Muslims. I know some people are quite secular. That is not the essence of Islam. It’s very very good that they don’t give Islam such a hold of their throats like some people do but you can’t thank Islam for that. You have to thank them and the secular values (for them being not religious, of course). You can’t thank Islam for it when someone doesn’t obey the core dogmas of Islam.

    And you must understand, there’s a general picture of it all. The general entity which represents Islam. Otherwise we could not identify such a thing like Islam at all. Therefore it has certain abilities, features common to it. I am talking about the entity, I am talking about those features. I am *not* talking about individual worshippers.

    Even the most secular Muslim nations like Indonesia are… well… religious. There was a scandal when Michelle Obama gave a handshake to one of the ministers because she is a woman. There is a special honor police checking woman’s skirts and absurd things like that in Aceh.Turkey is one of the most secular because there’s an army watching the secular nature of the country. And still… A coincidence, I’m sure. Like every one of those nations.

    Why do you keep writing paragraphs in M.T all the time about Islam? what does Islam got to with the racist you guys practice in Finland, you guys lynch us in the Finnish media chatrooms. How about we discuss about the ever increasing racism that’s hazard to our health? stop distracting the discussion, LET’S TALK ABOUT THE RACISM YOUR GUYS PRACTICE. Right now we got nazi spirited politicians in the parliament and the small minority living in this country is traumatize of the idea. Islam is not an issue here in Finland THE ISSUE ARE NAZIS LIKE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

  60. gunilla

    Where do you find the time for reading and replying all this? Time spend writing is time off from the streets throwing stones…..
    A young person is lost, feeling lonely, and I wish her all the best! Moving around is never easy to do, u need start everything from the beginning. Try a kansalaisopisto course, join a choir if you can sing; do some volountary work; Try some other school as you already cope with the language. I hope you get a chance to meet ordinary finns for good for worse and don’t losehope! Keep on writing!

  61. D4R

    Elven archer: I absolutely, and make no mistake here, treat every individual I confront equally. That doesn’t mean I like everybody. That means I judge people based on what they do and say. I don’t judge them by their reference groups.

    You’re a liar, you attack people because their culture and their race differ yours , i know you, you’re those racist who got nothing better to do with their time but to hangout in the racist chat rooms so to attack us just to feel themselves good and superior, that’s the only way they can have a meaning for their miserable life. Don’t try to B.S us that you see people equally and treat them according, you’re not going to fool anyone, you got two missions wich are to attack MOSLIMS AND DARK SKIN PEOPLE. ive been following you now for months, you got nothing better to add to this discussion that we try to have BUT TO ATTACK MOSLIMS AND DARKSKIN PEOPLE, pal, that makes you a racist, seeing the situation Finland is at right now politically and the concept of ordinary Finn about Immigrants, i’m not suprised that you’rea racist and your views are so harsh about Moslims and Dark skin people, WHY CAN’T YOU JUST SAY YOU’RE A RACIST? why write long esseys just to put your massege out?

  62. D4R

    Mark: Toni, keep your shirt on. Where did I label you? I was talking about D4R and what I think about his talking about racism and whether that qualifies him as a racist. It is your conscience as to whether you think D4R is a racist, but my firm belief is that he is not. On the contrary, he is someone I admire and respect, for his articulateness and his moral courage to stand up to fucking idiots like YOU.

    Thank you Mark, feelings are mutual 🙂

  63. cia

    I read the article, and a few things entered my mind. I’m liberal and all for a multicultural Finland. The more different ethnicities we have and get, the better. I am truly ashamed of the “True Finns” and all racists out there, and aware of their existance.

    However, I do feel like the happiness of our lifes is up to ourselves. It’s everybodys own responsibility to make the best of the situation they have. I couldn’t help but feel, that there was some unnecceccary complaining in the article. Why not try and make the best of the situation, get involved in different help organisations or do volotary work – at lest that way you will automatically belong to a group and meet people. If lonelieness is the biggest issue, then you need to do everything in your power to stop it, not just get fixed on the one issue of bringing the parents here.

    When it comes to an immigrant child – I think it’s a crime not to let the parents join. But in this case we have an adult. Lots and lots of adults have to live without theirs parents – for many different reasons.

    Many people suffer from lonelieness, I have myself even if I was raised in Helsinki. There are always things you can do. Why not take active part in multicultural organisations like Caisa and meet people that way? Volontary work? Helping other refugees? By giving something back to the community, you will surely get someting back yourself.

    I too feel, that complaining about the lack of TV as a refugee feels very odd indeed.

    Good luck with starting to build you new life in Helsinki!

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi cia and welcome to Migrant Tales. I wonder what Dana would say? Thank you for sharing your thoughts and suggestions.

    • Mark

      Cia

      Dana found work, went to language classes and has moved to Helsinki. I think those are signs of someone trying to improve their situation.

    • Mark

      Cia

      In a new country, Tv is an important way of learning about and being exposed to the culture. And what does a second hand tv cost? 🙂

      Otherwise, you make some good points.

  64. I am

    I absolutely, and make no mistake here, treat every individual I confront equally. That doesn’t mean I like everybody. That means I judge people based on what they do and say. I don’t judge them by their reference groups

    No dear Elf, dont forget that u, we cant judge people thats completely wrong because u, we r not master of universe.
    U cant, because u, we r not perfect , no one is perfect except GOD.
    U cant because u dont have their situation, their believes, and pain.
    U cant, u dont have enough information about them.
    Darlling dont judge we dont know anything about our next moment, tomorrow, or next week we dont , no one knows that, life has different steps, stations for some people if u understand them okay nice of u ( sure tahts not ur responsibilty, i understand it Elf) if not please i know its difficult always but at least dont insult them.
    we cant put salt on our sore, can we? So please darlling dont spray salt on any sore.
    Who knows about my next day?
    will be health, alive, succes, winner, loser? Can i joy this life tomorrow? what about this afternoon?
    I dont know, i just know this moment is my time, past is finish oh sad but finish and future what about future? there is no future, there is only present.
    I wish u a life without pain and full of happiness

  65. D4R

    cia: However, I do feel like the happiness of our lifes is up to ourselves. It’s everybodys own responsibility to make the best of the situation they have. I couldn’t help but feel, that there was some unnecceccary complaining in the article. Why not try and make the best of the situation, get involved in different help organisations or do volotary work – at lest that way you will automatically belong to a group and meet people. If lonelieness is the biggest issue, then you need to do everything in your power to stop it, not just get fixed on the one issue of bringing the parents here.

    When it comes to an immigrant child – I think it’s a crime not to let the parents join. But in this case we have an adult. Lots and lots of adults have to live without theirs parents – for many different reasons.

    Many people suffer from lonelieness, I have myself even if I was raised in Helsinki. There are always things you can do. Why not take active part in multicultural organisations like Caisa and meet people that way? Volontary work? Helping other refugees? By giving something back to the community, you will surely get someting back yourself.

    I too feel, that complaining about the lack of TV as a refugee feels very odd indeed.

    Good luck with starting to build you new life in Helsinki!

    You’re looking things from your perspective, first of this young woman came to a forgeing country and she felt disconnected so when you’re in a foreign country and disconnected it’s easy said than done to have friends, so she felt her family can join her, we understand her feelings you would feel the same if you were in her shoes, you have to look her situation from her perspective, and what comes to happiness, it’s hard to pursue and get one when the society surround you tries it’s best to prevent it by discriminating you, prejudices and labeling you of something your not and so you cary stiga with you and that prevents you from going forward with your life.

  66. I am

    Hi Cia,
    yes happiness is coming from our heart, we should make it in ourselves, but u feel sad when u have problems all the time, when u try alot and u get nothing.
    we have different cultures, some people joy to live with their family, some joy to live alone, nothing is bad, all culture are wothey, we cant change people, i dont want change people, thats not my job, i love to see people in happiness, we cant say best kind of life is being alone an dliving in samll room, no contact, no love, no kindness, no mery, no joy, u need to hear ur name from other people mouth, whats better than family in this world for u? who can call ur name better than ur wife, ur husband, ur children, ur parents, friends, why God created all of us on one planet? becaue he knew we want love, we r social creatures, not good for us to being alone, not at all, we all need love, love is the only medicine for all kind of sore.
    Voluntary is good but not for all the time, and it cant be a medicine for a human is far far of family for a long time, and what if u do voluntary and u get nothing in back, yes thtas mean of voluntray working but at least u need a bit improve ur life, okay no money but when u go to immigration police for apply something u need pay for, even they send u negative answer after a long long time waiting and trying, and tahts very easy for them, they can play game with u , u r foreigner, u r not good but ur money is good.
    Even an adult was a child before to be adult, and adult needs mercy too.
    There is only one law for human rights, we r all human beings and we r all need love.
    Also if u r sharing and talking about problems in ur life, it does not mean u r complaining to me, iwill understand in that moment that u r suffering, i understand in that moment u need hugs, i understand in that moment u need a few kind words, and all is for free, there is no charge for kind words.
    If u go to other country for alone, sure Tv can help u alot specially when u wish to learn native language and improve ur life, especially when u have respect for that country.
    Hugs Cia

  67. Elven archer

    “And there it is.”

    Like this?

    “You… have to make generalisations”

    Says Mark. Shame on you(!) because based on your example there’s nothing wrong with cutting sentences and dropping relevant ones from the paragraphs and twisting the actual meaning quite opposite, uh? Or maybe you actually don’t understand which would mean that there’s no point in continuing this because you don’t have the necessary cognitive skills to handle the discussion.

    Anyways there is no point in continuing. You are not acting honest enough or you simply lack the skills for a meaningful discussion. Take care.

    • Mark

      Elven

      hahahahahaha!

      Anyways there is no point in continuing. You are not acting honest enough or you simply lack the skills for a meaningful discussion.

      Thanks for the laugh, Elven.

      Basically this means I have your arse roasting on the fire – this is always when you start to make it personal and cut and run.

      Cut and paste my arse, Elven. Both clauses you wrote were about the same point that I wanted to address, so I put them next to each other, with an ‘…’ to signify something was left out. That is standard practice in written text, so stop your bloody moaning, you half-arsed ninny! The words are yours and the meaning doesn’t change a jot!

      So, no Arabic and you still consider yourself qualified to talk about the essence of Islam? You haven’t answered this question, so I ask again, for the third time 😀

      You are a prize fool, Elven.

  68. cia

    Mark, Dr4, Iam:
    Yes, I agree. Moving to a new country and culture where you don’t know anyone is difficult. I just don’t believe it’s realistic for anyone to expect that everything is done for them. Tons of people move to new countries with abslotutely nothing: they don’t get a roof on their heads, or money for food. So when this is provided, one could also feel grateful. There is a certain feel of accomplishment, when you slowly can buy the things you want yourself, first from flee markets and second hand shops.

    I know for a fact that there are many people in Helsinki, who would like to get to know people from other countries. But they might not bump into you in the street. Instead, it might be helpful to seek out international organisations, where the likelihood to meet such people is bigger. Even if it feels difficult to be strong and active when you feel sad, this is what many people have to do when they start their lives over. Watching TV in each others houses can also be a bonding experience.

    I do hope Dana is getting on better in Helsinki

  69. I am

    Cia dear brother,
    yes international organization is a very good idea for both of us, foreigners and Finns, we should be active, we should talk about our wishes with a loud voice, we r free, we r beautiful.
    Am sure there are talented people here in Helsinki that we dont have any idea about them, who are they? where r they from? There are always starts in the sky even when its a cloudy day, we just need search them, find them, try to understanding them, and talk to them,
    Foreigners have many many thing to talk about.
    Finns too, we all have different experiences about life
    we r able to help eachother
    I will be very gald to clean even a tear from ur eyes.
    I will be very lucky to help u when u need my help
    I will be happiest in this world if u call my name
    hugs, hug, hugs

  70. D4R

    cia: Yes, I agree. Moving to a new country and culture where you don’t know anyone is difficult. I just don’t believe it’s realistic for anyone to expect that everything is done for them. Tons of people move to new countries with abslotutely nothing: they don’t get a roof on their heads, or money for food. So when this is provided, one could also feel grateful. There is a certain feel of accomplishment, when you slowly can buy the things you want yourself, first from flee markets and second hand shops.

    I know for a fact that there are many people in Helsinki, who would like to get to know people from other countries. But they might not bump into you in the street. Instead, it might be helpful to seek out international organisations, where the likelihood to meet such people is bigger. Even if it feels difficult to be strong and active when you feel sad, this is what many people have to do when they start their lives over. Watching TV in each others houses can also be a bonding experience.

    I do hope Dana is getting on better in Helsinki

    I agree with you, good points your making here.

  71. Toni

    D4R: “Kansan Uutisten toimittaja väitti artikkelissaan Suomen Sisua ääriryhmäksi
    Tammikuussa 2008 Länsiväylä-lehti luonnehti järjestöä ”natsihenkiseksi”
    uusnatseja tutkinut dosentti sekä Suojelupoliisin ja Keskusrikospoliisin edustajat. Heidän arvioihinsa perustuen jutussa todettiin, että pääkaupunkiseudulla toimii joitakin ”natsihenkisiä” ryhmiä, ja nimeltä mainittiin Lepakkojengi ja Suomen Sisu. Lehdellä oli perusteet käyttää termiä ”natsihenkinen”, koska se perustui osin viranomaisarvioihin.”

    Actually Kansan Uutiset used some imagination when saying Sisu has been noted a racistic group. Supo and KRP did not tell anything like that.

    From Wiki:
    “Ratkaisussaan kanteluun ministeriön poliisiosasto totesi, että, toisin kuin lehden artikkeli antoi ymmärtää, artikkelia varten haastateltu Keskusrikospoliisin rikosylikomisario ei ollut haastattelussa kommentoinut Suomen Sisun toimintaa, sillä hänellä ei ollut yhdistyksestä syvällistä tietoa. Komisario ei ollut myöskään kutsunut ylipäänsä mitään rekisteröityä yhdistystä uusnatsistiseksi: komisarion mukaan termi uusnatsismi oli vain lehden toimittajan käyttämä termi.[54] Marraskuussa 2011 Suojelupoliisin turvallisuus- ja alueyksikön päällikkö Kari Harju sanoi YLE 1:n A-Studion haastattelussa Suomen Sisun olevan yksi Suojelupoliisin mielestä äärioikeistolaisia ajatuksia esille tuova ryhmä, jota hän itse ei pidä natsihenkisenä.[55][56]”

    So, no evidence about Sisu being a racistic or Natsi-like group.

    • Migrant Tales

      Toni, do we have to wait for a professor or the police to make a call on what Suomen Sisu is? There are many things that give it a whiff of Nazi-spirited, fascist IKL-spirited, anti-immigration and Finnish white power values.

      I don’t know how many association in Finland recommend reading Alfred Rosenberg and David Duke. Rosenberg was a good fiction writer and liked to reinforce the non-concept of the Aryan race. Read his book, The myth of the twentieth century, which argues basically that racial purity is what will save Germany. The Jews were mainly responsible for weakening the Germans. Only after the kick out the Jews and other enemies will the Aryan race become the super race. It is the total opposite of cultural diversity.

      You can find Rosenberg’s book by googling it.

      Teemu Lahtinen, who used to be president of Suomen Sisu, is an active member of Isänmaallinen Kansanliike (IKL). Read about IKL and you will see that it is a fascist party. Just google and the information is there.

      Suomen Sisu is above all a racist association promoting nineteenth century views such as “racial purity” and “racial hygiene.” Suomen Sisu, which has MPs in the PS (Jussi Halla-aho, James Hirvisaari, Olli Immonen and Juho Eerola), still lives in a racial time warp somewhere with Nazi eugenicist Eugen Fischer.

      I don’t need the police, Supo or anyone to tell me what Suomen Sisu is. It is many things: Nazi-spirited, fascist, racist and far right.

  72. Toni

    D4R: “Toni: So you don’t blame Halla-aho and Hirvisaari creating racism?”

    I think Finnish media is creating racism much more and Halla-aho, Hirvisaari and some others have been showing it. So they are not creating racism but showing facts that may create racistic thoughts to some.

  73. Mark

    Toni

    I think Finnish media is creating racism much more and Halla-aho, Hirvisaari and some others have been showing it. So they are not creating racism but showing facts that may create racistic thoughts to some.

    You mean because they aren’t pandering to your personal sense of grievance against certain kinds of foreigners? Creating more racism than Hallo-aho? lolol. Yeah….

    Give me a break!!!

  74. Toni

    MT: “Toni, do we have to wait for a professor or the police to make a call on what Suomen Sisu is?”

    Police already told their opinion. No need to wait, just lissten the police.
    Sure you can have your opinion what Sisu is. But it is just your opinion. If you say it is racistic you use hate speech. Now you are labeling some group as racists just because they are Finns who like Finns.

    MT: “There are many things that give it a whiff of Nazi-spirited, fascist IKL-spirited, anti-immigration and Finnish white power values. ”

    Like the police told, they don’t think Sisu is Natzi-spirited. So, you are against the police? Soon you will start burning police cars?

    Nothing wrong being IKL or facist or anti-immigration minded. It is same if you are multicultural minded or capitalist mineded or socialist minded.

    MT: “I don’t need the police, Supo or anyone to tell me what Suomen Sisu is.”

    But if you say someone is racist isn’t that hate speech?? Especially when the police tells you are wrong… Do we need to wait for some professor or a court judge to tell you are wrong? You don’t believe the police. Who do you believe?

    What gives you the right to use hate speech and create racism??

  75. Toni

    Mark: “You mean because they aren’t pandering to your personal sense of grievance against certain kinds of foreigners? Creating more racism than Hallo-aho? lolol. Yeah….”

    Sorry, I don’t understand..

    MT is telling Sisu is racistic even police told it is not. Is MT using hate speech? He is labeling some group because he doesn’t like Finns?

    • Mark

      It is not illegal to promote racism in Finland, Toni, but to commit certain racist acts is. Suomen Sisu steer on the side ideology. I’m not surprised the Police found no reason to convict. People generally are smart enough to circumvent restrictions on hate speech, as we see here all the time.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Is MT using hate speech? He is labeling some group because he doesn’t like Finns?

      Honestly, Toni… Give us a break. Do you guys practice these lines somewhere before coming to Migrant Tales? Do you have a teacher, a “mestari” maybe, that tells you what to say? I mean the one that teaches you to use adjectives like enriching, mass etc…

  76. justicedemon

    Toni

    But if you say someone is racist isn’t that hate speech??

    Not at all. It could be personal defamation, but in order to be hate speech it would have to be directed at a population group and have the effect of threatening, vilifying or insulting that group on the basis of race, skin colour, ancestry, national or ethnic origin, religion or conviction, sexual orientation, disability or some comparable other factor.

    Hate speech has to be collective and the principle of collection must be a defining feature of human identity.

    Compare Väinämöinen is a racist wastrel and kiddiefiddler with All Ruritanian men are racist wastrel kiddiefiddlers. The former is personal defamation, whereas the latter is obviously hate speech.

  77. I am

    TONY>>>>> i Iknow very well u dont like talk to me, and i know the reason, but i dont care at all, u r not what i need it in my life, but i know ur eyes working on here MT so just a big hi to ur eyes for they are searching the facts.Bravooo to them

    Ton, Ton, Toni, ha ha ha ha
    Nothing wrong being IKL or facist or anti-immigration minded. It is same if you are multicultural minded or capitalist mineded or socialist minded
    Do u accept them? Why?What are u thinking about me, a foreigner???A refugee?

    Especially when the police tells you are wrong… Do we need to wait for some professor or a court judge to tell you are wrong? You don’t believe the police. Who do you believe?

    WOW very especially, r u joking Toni? Police is nothing when is a fat supporter of racist, when is against human rights first,
    Second,even if u wait for court and judge, they are also supporter of racist police.
    Why we should believe police? strange, u r talking very strange Toni, Police, judge, court they are not meaning law when they break law and support racists.

    What gives you the right to use hate speech and create racism?
    LOL,
    1.People are not racist if they debate about racist, but if they support racist, talk and think like racists.
    2.U cant create racist if u talk about, but u can create racist if u support racists.
    3.Talking about racists is coming from the freedom of speech but supporting racists is hate of speech and creaing racism.

    Be free Toni

  78. I am

    Is MT using hate speech? He is labeling some group because he doesn’t like Finns?

    A gain joke Toni?
    R they ur favorite groups Toni?
    YES OR NO???
    Our words, acts are a label on us, what we r doing and talking about , so this groups are against themselves, and the creators of their labels.
    Say a welldone to me Toni, LOL
    la la la la la, we have a cloudy day here, what about u Toni?

  79. Toni

    Mark: “Not at all.”

    Then I can say that MT is a racist, and anarchist. My opinion.

    MT: “Do you guys practice these lines somewhere before coming to Migrant Tales?”

    You seem to have years of practice. You just don’t want to believe the police or anyone else.

    MT: “I mean the one that teaches you to use adjectives like enriching, mass etc…”

    Who teaches you that Sisu is racistic? Or did you just have a bad dream about it once?

    There are about 200 group associations for 10.000 Somali in Finland. Their agenda is for upholding their way of life. By doing that they do exactly the same as Sisu.

    Now they (Muslims) are asking to change our medical system to be more like their way of treating people… great! That is like taking medical science back 200 years.

    Iam: “TONY>>>>> i Iknow very well u dont like talk to me, and i know the reason”

    Ye. Hard to write to you because I don’t usually understand what you write to me.

    Iam: “What are u thinking about me, a foreigner???A refugee?”

    I have no idea about you. So I don’t have much to think about… sorry.

    Iam: “Second,even if u wait for court and judge, they are also supporter of racist police.”

    You see racism everywhere? Even in the police? That is like paranoid…

    Iam: “Why we should believe police?”

    Who do you believe? We Finns are tought to lissten the police and respect them. They uphold the law. If you don’t respect and trust the police, you can’t trust anyone.

    Iam: “People are not racist if they debate about racist, but if they support racist, talk and think like racists.”

    But MT is cleary stating some people and groups are racistic because he just believes so.

    Iam: “U cant create racist if u talk about, but u can create racist if u support racists.”

    How many times we have read from here claims that hate speech creates racism?
    I don’t support racists, I want them out. I don’t want here muslims who treathen to kill us. Natzis can leave too.

    Feel safe I am

  80. Toni

    >Iam: “”R they ur favorite groups Toni?
    YES OR NO???”

    I don’t know them but I like the idea. Their plan is like any other father has: To protect home, family, freedom, education, equality and the future.

    The same idea is what many Somali groups do here. Their target is to crerate a Somalian culture here. You can read about that on their web site. Just like many Swedish groups do and many-many others too.

  81. Mark

    Toni

    Mark: “Not at all.”

    Then I can say that MT is a racist, and anarchist. My opinion.

    Go ahead. No-one will believe an anti-immigrationist accusing his critics of racism – it just doesn’t figure.

    There are about 200 group associations for 10.000 Somali in Finland. Their agenda is for upholding their way of life. By doing that they do exactly the same as Sisu.

    And right on cue, there you go showing us what you really love about Somalis, that they aee trying to preserve something of their community while in Finland. If you were ever to see Somalis repatriated, then I would have thought this was in your interests too. No good sending them back to Somalia if the first thing they try to do is set up the sausages on the grill and hunt around for the non-existent saunas, is it?

    Actually, just for the record, Suomen Sisu are proposing a VERY DIFFERENT Finland to the one that currently exists, so the idea that they are ‘upholding their way of life’ is utter tosh. It would a new way of life, a fascist-dominated way of life, where the government tell everyone what art to like, what words to use in their language and what entertainment and fashion are acceptable. And that would just be the start of it!

  82. Toni

    MT, I just visited IKL web page. First line “Oma kansa ensin” was just like safety instruction in an aeroplane: “Help Others By Taking Care of Yourself First”
    Nice?

    • Migrant Tales

      Toni, give me a break. The SS said “loyalty is my honor.” So?

      Groups like the SS, IKL, NSDP and others will never tell you that they are racist or bad. Have you read Finnish history. Read about the Lapua liike and its offshoot, IKL.

  83. Toni

    Mark: “Actually, just for the record, Suomen Sisu are proposing a VERY DIFFERENT Finland to the one that currently exists”

    Where can I read about what kind of Finland is their plan? I can’t comment if I don’t know their plans…

    • Migrant Tales

      Lapua liike was a fascist political party that liked the ideas of Benito Mussolini. Not too many regard him as a great statesman. Fascism was on the rise in the 1930s and the Lapua liike is one of its manifestations in Finland.

  84. Mark

    Toni

    Where can I read about what kind of Finland is their plan? I can’t comment if I don’t know their plans…

    Go to Suomen Sisu home page and then go to Periaateohjelma. Each of the points I mentioned are dealt with, amongst a load more: art, language and fashion.

  85. I am

    Toni finally u r able to write my name before u send me ur lovely answers, ha ha ha thanks
    Nothing wrong being IKL or facist or anti-immigration minded, u said

    so i asked whats ur idea about me a refugee person here?

    and u say*****I have no idea about you. So I don’t have much to think about… sorry.

    LOL , i dont mean please Toni come and think about me, no sorry, dont worry be happy.
    Toni
    You see racism everywhere? Even in the police? That is like paranoid

    I saw racist not exactly everywhere but many many where, YES and in the police, in the court and i know u dont believe me because u think police is perfect, u think what r u thinking and what ur knowledge saying to u are complete, but Toni there r always many thing around us, that we dont have any idea bout them and thats why we have questions ????? always questions, always searching for the fact.
    U believe police is angel Toni?
    Holy and holy
    Paranoid? U know whats paranoid?? R u a doctor Toni? R U insulting me slowly slowly?Do u want put me down? sigh sigh but Toni i used too, its normal and standard here.

    Who do you believe? We Finns are tought to lissten the police and respect them. They uphold the law. If you don’t respect and trust the police, you can’t trust anyone.

    Toni, i have no respect for racist police
    Oh who said that, uphold the law? yes true
    Oh so i need to trust a police before trust to anyone else??? Again joke Toni??
    From where u got this idea?
    I cant trust easily, for first i need to know enough about u or some one else, law and system.
    Am glad, i knew u dont like racists, so u like me and u r my friend, are u? he he he
    Oh safe i wish a safe life for me

  86. Toni

    MT: “Toni, give me a break. The SS said “loyalty is my honor.” So?”

    I ment we should first help our own people instead of some foreigners, who don’t really need much help, and who want to kill us.

    MT: “Lapua liike was a fascist political party that liked the ideas of Benito Mussolini. Not too many regard him as a great statesman”

    I don’t know home many regards Kyösti Kallio as great stetsman, I have heard.

    Iam: “i dont mean please Toni come and think about me, no sorry, dont worry be happy.”

    So, tell me about you… Where you come from, why you came here, and why do you thing Finland is a bad country?

    Iam; “i know u dont believe me because u think police is perfect”

    No-one is perfect. Not even your God. I already told you this once.

    Iam: “U believe police is angel Toni?”

    No, they are humans. umans make mistakes and they have individual motives at work. Like any other person.
    But the Finnish police is the best in the world. Like Finland is the best for foreigners.

  87. I am

    Toniii
    GRRRRRRRRR
    Personal questions? How long should i answer this questions?
    Am a foreigner but how many peoples plus system want controling me????
    No more control, now my wings are open cant accept control.
    So, tell me about you… Where you come from, why you came here, and why do you thing Finland is a bad country?
    Finland is not a specially country like u think, thats ur idea, i love Finlnad because GOD created here its not a good country and not a bad ( attention Toni we r not talking about what is Finland looks like, but a bout racist in Finlnad )Finland is very normal plus racist ideas here and there that hurted me so so so so so so sooooooo so much.
    Again when u have pain how u explain it? R u say oh my backache is perfect, oh this pain is the bless of life, love it, wow all is okay with me, am enjoying my life with this pain?
    So now u can understand whats racist mean to me, get it?????
    When i say racist, u dont need feel upset because u r not racist.

    No-one is perfect. Not even your God. I already told you this once.
    Oh yes no one, but GOD is perfect, and thats my GOD plus ur GOD, GOD is one.

    Iam: “U believe police is angel Toni?”

    No, they are humans. umans make mistakes and they have individual motives at work. Like any other person.
    But the Finnish police is the best in the world. Like Finland is the best for foreigners.

    Finally u r agree that ur beloved police can make mistake…okay Toni, ur police made a nightmare for me with his mistake, a hurtful time, looong time, and u think Finnish police is the best in the world?
    U can debate with me and say ur police is perfect but u cant debate with yourself with the fact is in ur heart.
    Finland can be the best for some foreigners but for me WAS NOT the best, not good, not even normal but pain.
    Toni, we r talking about racist in Finlnad , about racist people in here so please u dont feel sad, u r not racist, i love u and Finns, i dont need u say that all Finns are not racist, i know that i am open minded person am not fanatical, my world is big and not small with a few hard and wooden minds, i have a big heart, in my heart all is love.

    No more allergy about racist word okay Toni
    Be strong
    Good night to u and MT

  88. Toni

    Iam: “Personal questions? How long should i answer this questions?”

    How long? I don’t understand.

    Iam: “Am a foreigner but how many peoples plus system want controling me????”

    I don’t understand.

    Iam: “( attention Toni we r not talking about what is Finland looks like, but a bout racist in Finlnad ”

    Everyone knows Finland is the most safe country and least racistic.
    How may countries you have experience on living in?

    Whe have also many cases where a foreigner has hurt a Finn very very very much.

    Iam: “So now u can understand whats racist mean to me, get it?????”

    No, sorry. I have no clue what you mean… We Finns don’t feel as safe as before because we have so many foreign racists here.

    Iam: “Oh yes no one, but GOD is perfect, and thats my GOD plus ur GOD, GOD is one.”

    My God is not Your God. My God is Tapio and his cousin is Zeus and he was the first God of all Gods..

    Iam: “Finally u r agree that ur beloved police can make mistake”

    Finally? This has been my opinion last 15 years. And I believe you have made a mistake accusing Finland a racistic country for a foreigner.

    Iam: “Toni, ur police made a nightmare for me with his mistake, a hurtful time, looong time, and u think Finnish police is the best in the world?”

    Finnish police makes least errors, but they do make errors. Many Finns have been hurt too. It is not a racism if you are hurt by a mistake!!

    Iam: “U can debate with me and say ur police is perfect”
    Why do you keep telling someone is perfect???

    ——

    Iam: “Finland can be the best for some foreigners but for me WAS NOT the best, not good, not even normal but pain.”

    There are hundreds of Finns who think Finland is not a good place for them…
    -They are older people who see how we try to please foreigners when old people are left to sleep in their shit.
    -They are people who have been hurt by a foreigners but police can’t or won’t do anything.

  89. Toni

    Mark: “Actually, just for the record, Suomen Sisu are proposing a VERY DIFFERENT Finland to the one that currently exists”

    I still hope you would tell me what kind of Finland you think they are proposing?

    And why is it worse than Finland muslims are proposing? Like taking our medical science back 100 years, putting women back to home without any human rights, forbidding universities, etc.

  90. Mark

    Toni

    Show me the Taliban in Helsinki! 🙂 🙂 Do you really think that the Taliban represent 1.5 billion Muslims in the world? Get real!

    I will write up the Suomen Sisu and Halla-aho articles in due course. There are many issues to consider and I’m still thinking my way through some of them. My response is taking shape, and it will be ready soon.

  91. I am

    LOL, Good morning MT,Toni and all
    What Toni?? LOL…. My God is not Your God. My God is Tapio and his cousin is Zeus and he was the first God of all Gods..
    There is only one GOD,our GOD is one, mine and yours.
    LOL Tapio?
    LOL Zeus?
    No more else, u think so so simple
    So u want a GOD only for yourself Toni, LOL u think our almightly GOD is not okay for u?? and u need one only GOD for yourself, like we say i want a wife a husband a child, a house for myself, LOL
    Tapio LOL
    How can u believe to humans, statue, words and stories? They r just words, like our names, like A< B< C< D< E,….
    U trusted easily to what u heard about Tapio and mr Zeus?
    They r not even cartoon like Simpsons, LOL
    I love this cartoon have u never watche it?
    Oh becareful in this case u just playing game with yourself.
    U can believe them, u r free, but they cant believe u because there r not alive, not exist and also ur belief cant change the fact about real GOD, GOD is GOD.
    talking about GOD is not that easy with two or three words, i was searching GOD in my whole life, and know very well there is one GOD.
    Toni u know very well in ur deep heart that there is only one GOD but u r angry at real GOD But GOD loves u and u know that very well.
    I was living in other countries also, Finland is not my first country that am living there.
    I never said ur police is perefct, u said that with ur support words about police.

    Finally? This has been my opinion last 15 years. And I believe you have made a mistake accusing Finland a racistic country for a foreigner.
    Accuse? ha ha ha
    I have not made a mistake, thats the fact my broken heart, my tears are my witness, an du judging me because u think ur information about everything is complete, tha tha thanks for ur judge but it cant change the fact.I am talking about myself , my life in here not all, it can be the best for some foreigners.
    Toni do u think a foreigner can talk to u face to face about racist?
    If u r hard hearted on net how r u will be in real and face to face?
    U say yes or no, no more no less, dear Toni, there r more than yes and no in life.
    U r able to understand what is my point if u think in ur freedom if u will, U
    will get what am talking about if u dont listen to Tapio and Zeus ha ah ha ha
    Take good care fo yourself Toni, dont leave yourself in the middle of the wilderness of dreams with ur headstrong.
    By the way say a hi for me to Tapio and Zeus LOL

  92. Toni

    >Mark. “Show me the Taliban in Helsinki!”

    I am talking about muslims who live HERE. According to a study they want changes to our health care system to support more their religion… and for teaching they hope changes. They don’t want our university educated teachers but their own.

    And they have asked Sharia law here. That means a lot of changes to rights for women…
    Do you wish Sharia law here?

    Mark: “My response is taking shape, and it will be ready soon.”

    Are they your opinions and beliefs about Sisu or some facts?

  93. I am

    Hi MT,
    Thanks, yes i am i am full of strength today and for ever.
    Smile
    My spirit hugs ur spirit
    Have a great day Mt and all

  94. Toni

    Iam: “There is only one GOD,our GOD is one, mine and yours.”

    That is what you believe. Greek have many gods, and some Finns too.
    Why should we have only one God when we can have many living in harmony?? You don’t want harmony??

    Iam: “LOL Tapio? LOL Zeus?”

    Are you trying to inslult my God? 😉
    You don’t know them? You think so simple…

    Iam: “So u want a GOD only for yourself Toni”

    No, I want you to accept my Gods and not laugh at them. If I laugh at your God you will kill me?

    And I hope you accept other Gods too. In India they have a lot of Gods…

    Iam: “How can u believe to humans, statue, words and stories? They r just words”

    And you believe words in the Bible? They are just stories. But you don’t believe words and stories in other holy books?
    I don’t think we have any reason to continue on this… you are so simple.

    Iam: “Toni do u think a foreigner can talk to u face to face about racist?”

    Sure. I have done that a lot. I know a lot of foreigners.

  95. Mark

    Toni

    I am talking about muslims who live HERE. According to a study they want changes to our health care system to support more their religion… and for teaching they hope changes. They don’t want our university educated teachers but their own.

    I’ve no problem with that in principle. Services should be services for all. If a woman wants a female doctor, she can request one and it’s not a problem. Do you know what the specific proposals are? Without details, it simply appears as normal political advocacy of an interest group, of which there are a great many in Finland attempting to have legislation modified to suit their interests.

    And they have asked Sharia law here. That means a lot of changes to rights for women…

    Does it? I cannot see anything being granted legislatively that would undermines the rights of women. It is against the Constitution. Any Shariah would have to respect that, I’m sure. Again, do you have specific proposals? Sharia can cover all sorts of judicial issues, from contracts, to banking services, to trade disputes, to domestic disputes. If both parties agree to the authority of a Sharia court, and that court does not in principle contradict existing legislation, then I cannot see any harm in it. Society needs flexible solutions that take into account the needs of specific service users.

    If you are going to say, give them an inch and they take a mile, well you can use that argument against all legislation that’s put up, that somehow it will lead to other legislation that would be unacceptable. The only way into this debate is to discuss specific proposals. If you don’t know them, then you are scaremongering about how the fabric of Finnish society is going to be torn apart without any actual evidence. Fine, if that is what you want to do, but paranoia and hysteria should have no place in politics (as if!).

    Are they your opinions and beliefs about Sisu or some facts?

    Funny! 😀 I will deal with actual text published on their website. I will consider the arguments they are making, what validity they have and what the implications are likely to be if widely adopted. But I’m not discussing it now. You’ll have to wait, sorry.

  96. I am

    Toni, That is what you believe. Greek have many gods, and some Finns too.
    Why should we have only one God when we can have many living in harmony?? You don’t want harmony??
    Exactly harmony is coming from one GOD.
    Are you trying to inslult my God? 😉
    LOL, I cant Toni becaus ethey r not exist.
    Ton Ton Toni,
    No, I want you to accept my Gods and not laugh at them. If I laugh at your God you will kill me?
    Oh everything about real GOD is perefct, we have not reason to laugh at GOD, we r not able, we cant because GOD is so so so great and kind.

    LOL, i cant accept stories, but i accept u as a friend, okay shake hand?

    LOL kill?
    Nooooooo, never, hugs Toni, am full of love, i eat meat but i cant touch meat, actually i dont like look at meat, am just with peace, also GOD loves u, GOD knows everything about u and when GOD accepted u who am i for dont accepting u???? But hay Toni i dont accept Ur A, b, c, d, zeus and else, he he
    I don’t think we have any reason to continue on this… you are so simple.
    ha ha ha
    Okay Toni,
    Simple, stripe, line line, colourful, rainbow
    But i never ever can accept to be just white and balck he he he
    Peace, love, joy and happiness to my dear planet the earth

  97. Toni

    Iam: “Exactly harmony is coming from one GOD.”

    Your God doesn’t exist. 😉
    Harmony is also coming when one nation? We would have harmony if we had only Finns here? 😉

    Iam: “because GOD is so so so great and kind.”

    Your God kills people. And Americans have taken your God for their use. They say every day: “God bless America and no place else.” And then they ask their God to kill people…

    African people kill hundreds of people every day for God. Is that good?

  98. Mark

    Toni

    Your God kills people

    People kill people. Unless you are thinking about death that comes to all of us, which is the fulfilment of the same purpose that gives us life.

  99. Mark

    Toni

    Who knows. But nature is beautifully ordered and beautifully chaotic at the same time. The journey seems to be one from simplicity to complexity, from expansion to expression, from singularity to multiverse, from the cradle to the grave. If nothing else, it certainly is a journey!

  100. I am

    Toni,
    we r talking about God and not nation.
    U dont kn ow my GOD very well, am talking about who created me, u and universe.
    saying God bless America is not a bad thing, i say GOD bless Finlnad, God bless America, God bless the world, me, u , all
    IWhen i say GOD bless America, Finland, England it means i love these countries and not means that i just love these countries and i ahte others, noooooooooo, dont think simple Toni.
    Now am saying GOD bless u Toni, because am talking to u right now but it is not mean that i dont like others, and also are enough intelligent to know that, no one will ask me like this
    OH I am, why u said GOD bless u Toni,
    Sure they can say it everyday GOD bless America, as we can say every day God bless me,u, here, them
    GOD is love, GOD created this planet for u, and all, GOD is peace, GOD never said kill, never, neveeeer
    I love u, Finns, American, African, and all
    For me life is a journey, i want do my best in my short time on this earth
    We r responsible for our acts and not our children also our children for their acts
    No/one can say to u hay Toni ur son done wrong thats ur sin
    So u cant say what a killer doing is a sin and a crime for GOD, God is our creater but we all have free will
    Brain, a powerful brain
    We r free to choose what we want,
    White, dark, yellow, red wife, husband, who do u want marry with? u r free, who knows what colour has ur wife, ur child? They r beautiful in ur eyes, ur wife is most beautiful woman for u, we dont know with who we will fall in love, but we should be very careful to dont fall in love with head ha ha ha and with our face and colour like racist people
    Love or hate???
    We have free will
    Also am not religious person but as i said am not against people and their belief, we r all able to live in peace , we r able, we can, and we all want it, we r intelligent creatures.
    I know if u were born in other country now u had other belief, so all depends to where we were born, and then our will, thats why its very very easy for me to accept all kind of people, thats why i have an open mind,i cant judge people no never.
    My love is for all
    I know love is a very strange word for u, maybe u feel fear about LOL and thats why u dont believe me.
    Best to the all

  101. Toni

    Iam: “we r talking about God and not nation.”

    But if you like to have only one God you must like to have only one nation.

    Iam: “U dont kn ow my GOD very well, am talking about who created me, u and universe.”

    And who created your God? I think it was my God who created your God… 😉

  102. I am

    Hi dear dear Mark, good day
    Oh No Toni, its not about my like and dislike, there is only one GOD.
    I love different nations, Finns, and others, i love all colours, when i go to shop or work i like to see different colours around me, because
    U r milk white and blonde like computer screen and so if i just and just look ta u Toni, my eyes will feel tired and hurt LOL its like i sitting infront of my laptop whole day. he he he

    NO/one created GOD, GOD was, is and will be. There r questions thats very good it show u r thinking and ur brain is active, but Toni GOD has secrets and so i cant answer ur question.

    Thats why GOD is one is right idea, because otherwise we will be like big children in a big kindergarden and will say all the time
    My god is better, ur god is smaller, their god is thin,mine, mine, mine mine all the time
    Be happy always

  103. I am

    : )))))))
    Everyone knows in his, her deep heart that there is one GOD,
    U cant learn about GOD at school.
    At school u just learn mathematic, history, dictation, logic, philosophy, writing, reading, a.b. c

  104. justicedemon

    Mark

    If both parties agree to the authority of a Sharia court, and that court does not in principle contradict existing legislation, then I cannot see any harm in it. Society needs flexible solutions that take into account the needs of specific service users.

    The most obvious example of this is boxing. It is lawful to hit another person in the context of this regulated sport. By contrast, hitting another person outside of that context is common assault, even if you are wearing boxing gloves.

    It is part of freedom of contract that Finnish banks, for example, may agree that their disputes are settled under English law by arbitration in London, and the Finnish courts will uphold and enforce any settlement thereby reached that is not fundamentally at variance with Finnish law, even though the detailed provisions of Finnish law would not permit such a settlement. In exactly the same way, Moslem businesses may agree that their disputes are settled under Sharia law by arbitration in Mecca, and the Finnish courts will uphold and enforce the outcome in exactly the same way.

  105. Risto

    “: )))))))
    Everyone knows in his, her deep heart that there is one GOD,
    U cant learn about GOD at school.
    At school u just learn mathematic, history, dictation, logic, philosophy, writing, reading, a.b. c

    I am, maybe there is no god at all. It is called atheism…

  106. I am

    Good afternoon Risto,
    I am, maybe there is no god at all. It is called atheism…
    There is God dear Risto.
    When u say maybe, it means u have doubt u r not sure and thats because there is GOD.
    I know its called atheism
    Smile

  107. Toni

    Iam: “U cant learn about GOD at school.
    At school u just learn mathematic, history, dictation, logic, philosophy, writing, reading, a.b. c”

    You forgot biologhy, physics, chemistry, and some others.
    Sure there is a lot of teaching about different religions at school where you learn about gods of Hindus, Buddhas, Islam, christianity, etc. My favorites are gods in Greek history. Pharaos in Egypt were also intresting.

    And ofcourse old gods of Finns are important part of our history:
    http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomalaisten_muinaiset_jumalat

  108. I am

    LOL,Oh Toni
    Old gods, new gods,sad gods, happy gods,are there racist gods too LOL
    : )

    Hi eyeopenner, how r u tonight
    Its a bit cold here in Helsinki, today was a dark day
    : )

  109. Toni

    No, I don’t live in Helsinki. I didn’t jump to the future (tomorrow) Helsinki, I just watched weather forecast.
    I miss sunshine too.

  110. eyeopener

    Hi Toni.

    Why do you wake up the dead. Tapio died some time ago. But Wikipedia is low low low. An Owl would ´know better 🙂

    You don’t seem to have a job. Who would like to have you as an employee?? The Church I guess 🙂 God Almighty !!

  111. Toni

    Eye: “Why do you wake up the dead. Tapio died some time ago.”

    He just sleeps. 😉 Gods never die! 😉
    Like many other gods do, he just sleeps.

    Eye: “You don’t seem to have a job. Who would like to have you as an employee?? ”

    You racist!
    You are very evil-minded because you like to put people into boxes and downgrade + label people. But again, you are so wrong. But that only means you feel you are wrong and then you try to attack my personal life when nothing left to do.

    I could call you with many names when you try to put me in a box with looking down on me…

    But no comment on this because I have many “jobs”. I also do voluntary work. Tomorrow I hope to see many kids with foreign background and have get a good video on that event… I hope many kids with foreignd backgroud will succeed and show the success on a video I record. That is my contribution to a better future: help the kids to feel accepted.

    I just hope you feel here the same with Finns… But that may be too much to ask. You just seem to hate so many Finns.

  112. eyeopener

    Hi Toni.

    Nice to call me racist. Do you have an arm-sleev for me too!!

    Unfortunately for you Toni, I am not wrong. Mistake again. You doesnot seem to understand how you have attacked many peoples’ personal lives. You have called me names many times Toni. Now I will get to you and hard!! Do start to cry now

    Are you pedophile?? Show your success in the NET??

    No, Toni, not by a log shot. I love Finland and the majority of its people. I have many many friends here But…………….. I DON’T LIKE PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!

  113. Analyysi

    did I understand it right Migrant Tales that Finland should allow in all immigrant families so that they can be with the family? And pay for their healthcare, maintenance and so forth.

    Cities are not wishing refugees these days, they are in too big debts. The customs and police are in crisis and many problems in the social and health sector. I think Finnish citicens are more important than foreign people for Finland. And more cuts to come, police…and all this immigrations is financed with debt, debt on the already nearly uncontrollable debt.

    It can’t get more lunatic than it is at the moment.

    • Mark

      Anlyysi

      Finland’s debt levels are pretty good. Remember that Finland had used it’s good credit rating to borrow and then lend to other countries that can’t get such a good rate.

      The impact of immigrants is generally positive. Most immigrants contribute immediately, constituting a free worker with education and skills paid for already. Others take a few years to get into the labour market, but are still cheaper workers than the cost of bringing up baby Finn, with educating and health care for nearly 20 years before we have a worker. Even immigrants staying home and having lots of babies is a good contribution of future workers.

      You are too pessimistic and swallowing politicians’ crap.

  114. Analyysi

    Police have said that they are short of staff, in a study.
    Tulli said the same, not in the study.
    Towns said the same, they are beeing forced with additional incentives to take refugees.
    We have not read the same statistics, unemployment rate is 30% + at the moment.

    Politicians are not producing statistics.

    Finland’s rate remaind good, with a measure that is temporary and forcing municipalities to join one another in a map that looks like federal states or as one put it, the biggest municipalities (geographically) in the world.

    Taxes, both corporate and income will go up, eventually business will leave Finland. It doesn’t look good for the €, whatever happens to it will strenghten the damage.

    That is what happen when politicians lie to people. Olli Rehn as the main criminal.

    • Migrant Tales

      Analyysi, why does Finland permit asylum seekers and then blocks their chances of bringing their families. Try to put yourself in their shoes. You flee Karelia after September 1944 but your family stays in Terijoki. The authorities won’t allow you to bring your family. You have to live apart. Now imagine if you were a minor…

  115. Toni

    eye: “You have called me names many times Toni. ”

    But Mark told I can call MT (and you) a racist if I feel like.

    eye: “Now I will get to you and hard!! Do start to cry now”

    Go ahead if it makes you feel better. More you insult me, more I see you want to hurt Finns. I just let you hit me… I have had a hard life. I don’t cry so easy.

    eye: “I DON’T LIKE PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!”

    Can you explane why? What kind of people?

  116. Toni

    Iam: “Wow voluntary so please come help me abit Toni”

    What kind of help you need? I have helped many foreigners when they visit Finland. I drive them around, I teach them, I do a lot ot things to help them. When I have time for it.

    I am trying to help one columbian to get her internet working. I just can’t find a solution. Perhaps I just buy her a new PC…

    eye: “Do you have an arm-sleev for me too!!”

    Do you want a white or a black one? You can wear it as head badget like I do when doing sports…

    Mark: “Finland’s debt levels are pretty good. Remember that Finland had used it’s good credit rating to borrow and then lend to other countries that can’t get such a good rate.”

    But that is a risk. And against EU laws. But you think braking the laws is ok if Finns have to pay the price?

    Mark: “The impact of immigrants is generally positive.”

    But the whole discussion is to control it! Now the immigrants keep telling that bad immigrants can’t be separated from the good.

  117. Toni

    MT: “why does Finland permit asylum seekers and then blocks their chances of bringing their families. ”

    Blocks?? You racist! 😉 Or are you just telling jokes again? Using sarcasm or just provoking. Difficult to say… Any comment?

    Finland only allows family members to come. That has not changed as you very well know!
    They now try to prevent bringing other than family members. They try to block “ihmiskauppa”.

    The problem is that many “family members” were not family members when they did DNA tests…

    What do you think is the reason??? Racisim? 🙂

  118. eyeopener

    Hi Toni.

    LIke I said. You are the laugh of the century and we still have 90 years to go. Imgaine all the people 🙂

    Teach them not to come here. I guess.

    Wear them as the Nazis did, do you Toni. Here is your racist guide. Special group guiding for “brothers-in-arms” Foreign or national. Nice “hide” Toni!!

    You don’t have family Toni?? You have done aDNA test yourself. They say that 20% of the population doesnot have the parents they claim to have. Cool for you!! Bastard!!

    Your mind is racist Toni. You write about it all the time.

    Happy now??

  119. Toni

    You can ask yourself why you are the only one thinking me as a racist??

    “Teach them not to come here. I guess.”

    Them? We welcome fugitives and family members and those wiling to work and willing to live here according to our laws. No problemo.

    You blame me and some Finns when we try to block “ihmiskappa”, “orjakauppa” and criminals… Do you support slavery like arabs do?

    “They say that 20% of the population doesnot have the parents they claim to have”

    Yes. That is the problem with some foreigner groups. Those who have many wifes and those who see women has no rights.. We don’t want them here… sorry.

    Me bastard? Me hug you.

  120. Analyysi

    personally it would not be a problem. My parents were nice but my I had enough og them after nearly 20 years living with them.

    The issue is money, Dana is adult and she should work enough to make the money needed. Dana wants to bring her parents and have Finland pay for their surgeries.

    So for example if somebody has a sister in Australia, he or she should be able to jump into the Australian system, be a social burden and have them to pay for the medical care she did not get in the home country. Including grandparents, sisters and brothers.

    This reasoning could not get any more absurd.

    What happened to the Somalis who came here in family reunification?

    May be 90-95% are dependant on sicial benefits…

  121. Analyysi

    the way it should be seen is.

    Dana has been offered shelter.
    Dana has been offered to work so tha her family can come here.

    It is nothing strange with that. If she is too unhappy with how things are, then feel free to move.
    You can see how this immigration has worked. It has failed it literally all European countries with bigger immigration. It is also the key factor for the current euro crisis.

  122. justicedemon

    Analyysi

    You can see how this immigration has worked. It has failed it literally all European countries with bigger immigration. It is also the key factor for the current euro crisis.

    How did you work that one out? Not the banking collapse, not the credit crisis in southern Europe, but immigration?

  123. eyeopener

    Hi Toni.

    You have turned yourself into a wolf in sheep clothes. You are the most dangerous guys in the field.

    You should leave the law to do the work for you instead of you proclaiming what law is and what is not. You think I am ignorant about people using people?? Come up North and see what happen when people (Thais, Russians etc.) come here to do the work Soini would like Finns to do for free. Are yopu really from another planet??

    Your example of Australia is of no relevance here, Toni. Keep it short and simple. That’s what you understand.

    Come to my class about different cultures. Eye-opening!! You don’t want them here. Then Toni you stay in Finland because nobody want you somewnhere else.

    No, Toni once again you didn’t get it. I was referring to the Finnish situation. That’s why!!

    Don’t like hugs from bastards!!

  124. eyeopener

    Hi Analyysi.

    Gues you are a Finn, aren’t you?? What’s your knowledge base on Australia. You have lived there for quite a tyime. How long??

    What does your knowledge have to do with the Somali connection. Wild shots?? Reasonable for an Australian living somewhere in the out-backs?? That’s where you lived, no??

    Your for example example looks very cool but totally irrelevant.for the issue.

    Outbacker means lowpacker!!

    Happy now??

  125. Toni

    eye: “Your example of Australia is of no relevance here, Toni”

    What example? Now you seem to confuse me to “Analyysi”.
    So your comment has no relevance now.

    jd: “How did you work that one out? Not the banking collapse, not the credit crisis in southern Europe, but immigration?”

    Some “experts” keep telling: In Finland it costs like 2mrd, In Germany 20mrd, in Greece, Italy, Spain, France about 50mrd. And included that we have payed 100mrd to Africa last years even they have 10000mrd in their own pockets.
    So, we have lost about 500mrd euros to Africa durig last 10 years. It hurts…

    But I think it is not the problem, but to moving all production to China and India. Now the companies are bringing the factories back because the quality has been so poor…

  126. Toni

    Immigration is bigger problem in South Europe. There are like 5 million illegal immigrants in South Europe. And then 100 million people there don’t pay any taxes.

    But we Finns can pay all that… Katainen promised. Few billions, no problem….

  127. eyeopener

    Hi Toni.

    We robbed the other world for mrds. But your historical knowledge fails here I guess.

    100 million people don’t pay taxes including Finland?? Are you all of a sudden an economist Toni? a tax expert?? Or are you just the next monkey??

    When Finland entered the EU Finland drew mrds from the EU to clean up the problem of the periphery. Forgotten Toni?? Probably.

    Who are your “experts” Toni. Blablabla again

    What about Finnish companies leaving the country using mrds of subventions of recovery. Remember Kemijärvi??

    What about the investments of Stora Enso in Uruguay? Ruining the local infrasctructure for ecalyptus forests? And then Urugyans come to Finalnd!!

    New investments coming to China also in the same vein. Chinese coming to Finalnd??

    That’s OK for you?? These policies??

  128. Analyysi

    immigration has brought or has been contributing to the fall of Europe’s wellfarre. The euro has stakholders (creditos) widely outside the euro zone. Creditos or banks in other countries, where the immigration has failed.

  129. eyeopener

    Hohoho. Analyysi.

    Better study the reports of the ECB. Immigration has nothing to do with this issue. But simple minds can’t thinkl of more complex issues.

    Simplicity is a joy forever.

  130. a true patriotic finn who loves finns

    Elven, Toni etc..

    Your values stand against everything we have achieved as a proud nation. As much as you might claim to love our country, you will never, NOT FUCKING EVER, get any love back. Finland fucking hates you and your kind, and the Finland you think you love, it never even existed. Take that you scum! Still feeling patriotic? Huh?

    I found it especially sickening to read, Elven, your comments on Dana’s school experience. She’s been obviously bullied, abused and excluded by her classmates – and to the level that even teachers were involved. Experiences like this are often deeply traumatising. So, feeling empathic, eh? No, because somehow YOU know better. Congrats, you make me feel deeply ashamed of my own humanity. Oikeasti, hyvin noloa.

    Why oh why do I get tempted to read these repulsive comments..

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi a true patriotic finn who loves finns, what you wrote shows that you are “a true patriotic finn who loves finns!”

      Welcome to Migrant Tales!

  131. Analyysi

    and you eyeopenor have problems to read or understanding what you read.

    I never asked you to express your views. I doubt that anybody here is interested in the puke you are feeding.

    No worries, you are not the only one who doesn’t understand when to shut up. There are millions of others like you

  132. Toni

    eye: “We robbed the other world for mrds. But your historical knowledge fails here I guess.”
    And now it is pay back time?

    I haven’t rob anyone but still you feel the need to punish me and make me your monkey?

    Todays News: In Greek they do most cosmetic surgeries in the world after South Korea. In Greek they do mainly penis lengthening surgeries. No wonder why they have lost all their money…

    • Migrant Tales

      Toni, I kind of guessed that you were going to point this out and I was planning to write something on it.

      Any crime committed by a member of our society — not a GROUP IN THAT SOCIETY — is a serious matter that we must tackle together. The question that I have is why was this news story published now? Somewhere at the bottom of the story we finally see some real figures: 31 rapes committed by a certain national group, which is 5% of all such cases.

      We had the case of the court documents published on PS MP Teuvo Hakkarainen’s website and now this.

      What is it that we want to show with this news? For the far-right gang it reinforces their perception that all people from a certain group are rapists. A pedophile ring was recently busted by the police. Why didn’t the police announce the age group of the Finnish males? Do you think such information would protect children from being sexually abused?

      Do you think such news promotes honest debate about a problem or is just greater victimization of certain immigrant groups?

  133. Mark

    a true patriotic finn who loves finns

    You chose a very good name, because you probably already noticed that the very first thing levelled against anyone criticizing the racism expressed here or in Finland is accused of hating Finns. 🙂

    Thank you very much for your comment. This is a great lift for us immigrants fighting to create an open and honest forum for discussing these issues. Some days it is very depressing reading the vitriole and lies levelled against us. It is so common to read how ‘you foreigners hate us Finns’, which as well as being a blatant lie, also deliberately tries to emphasis we are ‘outsiders’. Nice to see a Finn put them in their place and call them out for what they are doing!

  134. Toni

    MT: “The question that I have is why was this news story published now? ”

    The information have been published a long time ago. It was just re-publisihng of old news. But the timing is interesting. Perhaps more people start to understand why some Finns – that eyeopener calls monkeys – are conserned and don’t feel safe any more.

    MT: “What is it that we want to show with this news?”

    What do you think they/we are trying to do?

    MT: “For the far-right gang it reinforces their perception that all people from a certain group are rapists.”

    And if not published, it reinforces perception that no-one from a certain group is a rapist?

    MT: “Why didn’t the police announce the age group of the Finnish males? Do you think such information would protect children from being sexually abused? ”

    What age group of the Finnish males?

    MT: “Do you think such news promotes honest debate about a problem or is just greater victimization of certain immigrant groups?”

    Do you think it is necessary to be silent about this subject that some Finns see as a (growing) problem. Is it a real problem?

  135. I am

    did I understand it right Migrant Tales that Finland should allow in all immigrant families so that they can be with the family? And pay for their healthcare, maintenance and so forth

    Analyysi

    If immigration police wants a fresh fat money for applying for my family, then should let me to bring them here.
    Who said we r not good for studing?
    U need to know that u can find very very intellignet people between us too.
    Come and see how am able talk to u in Finnish language, or come and bring with yourself ur IQ test, am ready
    Have a good day Ana

  136. I am

    What kind of help you need? I have helped many foreigners when they visit Finland. I drive them around, I teach them, I do a lot ot things to help them. When I have time for it.

    Many kinds, but okay Toni u r not living in Helsinki, but thanks : )

  137. I am

    MT: “why does Finland permit asylum seekers and then blocks their chances of bringing their families. ”

    Blocks?? You racist! 😉 Or are you just telling jokes again? Using sarcasm or just provoking. Difficult to say… Any comment
    No Toni, MT is an itelligent man , who can see the facts.
    But racist is who says to me dont bring ur family memeber and playing with me that year and this year and makes pain for my family even they are not here and veryyyyyyyyyyyy far,
    For immigration police accepted my applications and money. Immigration police made me and my family do what they want here and there and easily after a big game ( their game with me is not over, but) said me no, now my case is in their court,…….

  138. I am

    The issue is money, Dana is adult and she should work enough to make the money needed. Dana wants to bring her parents and have Finland pay for their surgeries
    Analyysi,,,
    We dont know about our future, know we???
    Sickness is not we want but it can come and cath our health and made us sad weak and tired, it can happen for all, not just for some, so we cant say
    We cant pay for their surgeries and else.
    If Finland accepted Dana, Dana trusted Finland in that time, came here and worked, so sure she wants her right.

  139. I am

    It is nothing strange with that. If she is too unhappy with how things are, then feel free to move
    Analyysi,
    So this is what u wish for Dana??
    Bravooo to u, u know how to respect a woman

  140. Toni

    Iam: “Many kinds, but okay Toni u r not living in Helsinki, but thanks : )”

    I live close…

    Iam: “MT is an itelligent man , who can see the facts.”

    But he didn’t write facts but lies. We are bringing the families and paying the flights. Not many countries do that! So, fugitives coming to Finland would be happy to come here.

  141. Analyysissa

    of course, I am. One that is being persecuted is given shelter, opportunity to form up her own life just complains.

    I am, Finland has the best family reunification in the world, the only country paying for the flights inthe entire world.

  142. I am

    U know what Toni,
    We think and see different, and the reason is
    U r Finn ( with respect for all nice Finn ) it is abit difficult for u to see what we can see it immediately here, me, MT and other dear friends here i mean racist ideas and people( again a foreigner can be a racist too its not only about a Finn ) But okay we r talking about racist systems and rolers
    that they r Finns offcourse, okay Toni??
    So a person like MT can see very clear whats wrong here, but whats wrong here can looks very normal for u Toni,
    when i came here almost all wrong things in here was very normal for me, but slowly slowly i got whats wrong, i understood who is racist, …
    Then u feel that we dont like u and Finlnad, noooo, nooow, no
    MT has love for Finland for he wants best for this country and society, he is Finn and has Finnish family , also others, they want help, they are helpers for this society
    MT is like a wind, who can come and move an apple tree for example and show us that there r some un healthy apple, but then
    U love ur apple tree and u think we can eat dark apples too, they are not very old and dark ur idea, he he he
    So u live in Vanta

  143. Mark

    Analyysi

    I am, Finland has the best family reunification in the world, the only country paying for the flights inthe entire world.

    Great. And when they get here, this is what they can expect from you:

    immigration has brought or has been contributing to the fall of Europe’s wellfarre.

    and

    You can see how this immigration has worked. It has failed it literally all European countries with bigger immigration.

    and

    What happened to the Somalis who came here in family reunification?
    May be 90-95% are dependant on sicial benefits…

    Shall I sum that up for you?

    “We hate foreigners, but we treat them well.”

  144. Mark

    Elven

    “The Arab Spring has brought a new wave of secular Islamic politicians”

    Yes, very secular Salafists, Islamists and Muslims which is probable the world record of misusing the word “secular”.

    I missed this reply of yours. But just to show what an ignorant shit you still are, Libya published plans yesterday for political parties that bans religious parties and parties with foreign sponsorship (i.e. Iran),

    So much for your cynicism. You still didn’t name the politician believed to be paving the way for this new secural Islamism, which anyone who knows anything about Muslim politics could tell you off the top of their heads. You know almost nothing about Islam or the Islamic world. But you certainly think you are qualified to pontificate on what is the “essence of Islam”.

  145. I am

    Analy,
    Complain is not a bad subject, like ur wife or ur son complain to u about a thing, then u can understand whats wrong, and then u can fix it. We dont want live with wrongs and mistakes for always, r we?
    Analy
    The best family reunification?
    Sigh sigh for my case was not, and nothing is wrong with my case, nothing
    But it looks like all say to me HAY U R VICTIM, U SHOULD BE BECAUSE SOME FOREIGNER DONE WRONG HERE
    Thats very very hard for me
    Like u Analy go to other country and then try for bring ur family there and they close all doors at u and say hay Analy some foreigner done ba dthings here we cant trust u, and then u r wondering all the time, u r asking yourself why they close the doors at me???
    and slowly slowly u see almost no/one wants u, u r exta there, u r sinful in their eyes,
    but
    If we go to other country we r foreigner, if u Finn go to other country u will be a foreigner there and so do u like they treat u like this?
    Please understand me and my point okay Analy?
    : )

  146. I am

    Additionally, the story of Dana is probably a lie. One, because she doesn’t want to show her name and give the exact details. Two, she is a practising (Christian?) who can’t excercise her religion in Iran. The question would be, where and how has she done so now when she is free to do it? Proof of it over a longer period of time

    Hay Analy
    I just ask u how can u judge Dana?
    Why she should show her name, u r joking??? Exact details???? Dont u want more???
    U r a president? or u want help her? Do u want her ID too?? LOL
    No more curious? Any more question???
    Whats ur real name? Analy?
    who r u?
    Can u say a bit about ur life, any small details? u cant any of my questions and thats ur right but how can u read this blog and judge Dana?

    Proof of it over a longer period of time, ha ha ha
    For u Dana is a liar and u cant accept her, u hate her from ur deep heart. and u know why?
    U r thinking about tax money, just that
    Why u accepted her here then, for make a nightmare for her????
    How canu Analy?
    How?
    Look at the mirror an danswer yourself if u can, that am sure u cant.

  147. eyeopener

    Hi hi Analyysi

    Analyysi seems to forget that Finland’s entry in EU turned out to be very lucrative for especially the Northern Regions. Jus forget it Analyysi. But when EU changed their policies to help the East-European Country partners the loss of fundings was -and still is- felt very hard.

    What about foreigeners contributing to the system and pay for people who haven’t worked all their lives. Lapland has a structural unemployment between 15-17%. Problems Analyysi?? It seems that for you Finalnd stops at the northern highway around Helsinki. Whoepie.

    Björn Wahlroos book has been “cracked” as ignorant by many readers already. Ignorant because of its one-sidedness of approach. Societies are a little bit more complex and complicated as Mr. Wahlroos suggests. But for you it seems to be the truth. Pity for you!!

    As you are already judging without any evidence presented: the story of Dana is probably a lie. You have de-masked yourself as an irrelevant person.

    Your sack of mental sawdust is already standing and waiting for you a long long time. You have so many “criminal thoughts” yourself. Look at the beam in your brother’s eye before telling your brother he has a beam.

  148. I am

    To racist people in Finland to all of u
    Me as a foreigner know very well, that u try over and over to make me tired because u dont want me here, u hate me and u dont know why?
    U dont know themselves, u dont know who are u, u dont know why that u r living on this earth, u just think about yourself and honestly u r foreigner for this country like me.UUUU
    hurted me so much, and very well, be happy , make a party, joy with ur family, feel winner, but u r all losers.

    If am a rich person with a big company and much money welcome to Finland, but if a refugee am not okay for ur case, because ur case is money.
    Why u accepted me here, why?
    u should say JUST RICH PEOPLE WELCOME
    U should ask me first day first moment do u have a company? Oh i want check ur race, DNA test,…..
    And u know what kind of race that u ahve oh u racist one?
    Hate race, proud race, thats u
    I did not come here with my will, u accepted me here.
    Ur law, ur system

  149. Analyysissa

    eyeopener

    The period of ecu or Eu has been a disaster. The biggest tele com company of the world for many years, Nokia was only able to pull once a surplus of the fiscal economy. What is it, 20 years and you talk about success story. Finland was out of debt when entering the ecu, now soon 50 % of annual GDP is debt.

    It is called gambling, high stakes with low odds always leads to an empty wallet. The spending has just merely began. I keep foregtting, is it Greece next, or was it Portugal? Spain perhaps?

  150. Toni

    Iam: “MT and other dear friends here i mean racist ideas and people”

    We just try to protect what we have (our parents have) build by working hard. It is not racism if we don’t want to share everything we have.

    And you come here and ask everything free: bigger house, better neighbours, more money, etc.
    We don’t get biggers houses, better neighbours, more money if we don’t work hard.

    MT sees like everything we have build belongs to him.

    • Migrant Tales

      –We just try to protect what we have (our parents have) build by working hard.

      How old are you Toni? In your twenties or thirties. If you are what have you done to build this country except live off what your grandparents fought for? Free health care, free education and many other social-welfare windfalls…

      You make it sound as if you are 120 years old at least. Give me a break.

  151. Toni

    >MT: “Free health care, free education and many other social-welfare windfalls…”

    Health care is not free, education is not free. We pay high taxes for them.
    You just think they are free because you don’t work for them.

    You ask free breaks every day…

    • Migrant Tales

      –You just think they are free because you don’t work for them. You ask free breaks every day…

      Could you enlighten us what those “free breaks” I get every day?

  152. Toni

    From this page:
    “Give me a break!!!”
    “Honestly, Toni… Give us a break”
    “Toni, give me a break. ”
    “Give me a break.”

    You just keep asking (free) breaks…?
    You just don’t want to understand why we don’t want to give free houses, free thousands of euros, free that, free this,… everything free to foreigners. They see these things and then they ask us to give it to them free.

    We have to work and pay for those… nothing is free!

    • Mark

      Toni

      You just don’t want to understand why we don’t want to give free houses, free thousands of euros, free that, free this,… everything free to foreigners. They see these things and then they ask us to give it to them free.

      That’s right Toni – keep stigmatizing foreigners.

  153. justicedemon

    Analyysissa

    Finland was out of debt when entering the ecu, now soon 50 % of annual GDP is debt.

    What are you talking about? The GDP share of Finland’s general government debt was at least 57 per cent in 1996.

  154. Farang

    Exactly. Much of the negative attitudes against (social) immigrants may very well arise from the fact that we Finns pay high taxes, which are then transferred to those immigrants for free. And yet some of those immigrants who get everything for free show no gratitude, but just complains.

    Paying several tens of thousands euros per year doesn’t feel right when you look at the state of Finland at the moment. Education is under cut downs, health care is under cut downs, etc. But still the money is given to foreigners for free.

    Immigrant rapists and other criminals are not deported, but instead they are rewarded with welfare payments.

  155. I am

    You just don’t want to understand why we don’t want to give free houses, free thousands of euros, free that, free this,… everything free to foreigners. They see these things and then they ask us to give it to them free.

    To all Finns who have complain about this matter
    I am not a creator of this law in Finland, am i?
    So u cant complain it to me, am not a builder of ur law.

  156. Toni

    Iam: “To all Finns who have complain about this matter
    I am not a creator of this law in Finland, am i?
    So u cant complain it to me, am not a builder of ur law.”

    I said that. The problem is not that we offer you a home but that many foreigners get a free hom and then they complain they want a bigger free home.
    Some even complain why don’t they get a big house from a rich people area…

  157. eyeopener

    Dear Toni. Nobody gets things for free nowhere!! Distortion again. Can’t you really come up with something else than BLABLABLABLA!!

    Monkey business 🙂 Time for peanuts.

  158. Toni

    eyeopener: “Dear Toni. Nobody gets things for free nowhere!! ”

    Why do you lie?
    We give free money, free living, free flights for family member, etc. A lot of free things!
    Everyone knows that. Why do you lie?

    Now you are a monkey! 😉

  159. eyeopener

    Hi Toni.

    Nothing comes for free. But…… your aree not involved in international agreements, do you? Operational level is something that you have to deakl with……and you have a problem with that, don’y you.?

    It’s out of your league, Toni. International politics.

    I understand you don’y agree (your Homma friends either) but it’s beyond your “say”.

    Höpsöö

    Mokeys like you never get to the intellectual level. Therefore:……

    Peanuts time 🙂

  160. I am

    Some even complain why don’t they get a big house from a rich people area…
    OOOPS dont bite Toni, stop it big boy
    R u rich?
    Or a supporter of rich people?
    No/ one wants a big house from a rich people area, he he he he, relax Toni
    U just want say something against me, whats matter?
    i have seen beautiful houses in my home country that ur rich people never seen in their whole life, yeah
    Okay i got it, u hate me Toni
    Thanks
    But hay ur hate is yours, its come from ur heart an dnot my heart so it cant hurt me
    Good luck to me just me
    LOL

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