Comment: The mass killings in Norway, which took the lives of 76 people, puts politicians like Perussuomalaiset (PS) party head, Timo Soini, in between a rock and a hard place. Even if he does not admit it, Soini knows that he has got a heavy problem with the Jussi Halla-aho faction of the party.
The problem is the following: If he denounces too strongly those that are strongly against immigrants and Muslims he will end up hurting his party’s popularity and in the worse case cause it to splinter. On the other hand, if Soini doesn’t denounce racism within his own ranks, he will be criticized for bowing to this social ill that has lifted its head big time in the Nordic Region. He and the PS will look especially awkward if something close to what happened in Norway occurs in Finland.
In the short interview on the Päivän-kasvo talk show, Soini was defiant. Without pointing the finger at anyone in his party but denouncing violence, it did not bother him in the least that Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring Breivik got his inspiration from PS MP Halla-aho’s writings on the Gates of Vienna, a Counter-Jihad website.
Soini’s answers were, in my opinion, full of political opportunism at its best sealed with denial, even if some claim that his party is the problem for spreading racism via hate websites like Hommaforum and Scripta. The low point of the interview was when he accused other parties of trying to score political points with what happened in Norway.
The PS leader said that supposedly those critics against immigration in his party were not spreading hate speech from their websites.
Here is something that I picked up from Halla-aho’s Facebook wall on Sunday, July 24: “Many Finns who didn’t reach an orgasm when it wasn’t a Hommaforum (follower) that did not burn the pizzeria in Tampere, are now demanding payback time with interest. For you information I do not take back anything that I’ve written and do not take any responsiblity for what Breivik did; I plan to continue along the same path because bad immigration is bad and multiculturalism sucks ass irrespective of what Breivik did.”
Halla-aho writes on Facebook the following day: “Reporters have called me insistently and their only question was how I felt that Breivik has quoted me (in his 1,518-page manifesto). It doesn’t feel like anything (about being quoted). Instead it feels awful that nearly one hundred innocent people have been murdered…”
Soini has made a big mistake by allowing anti-immigration and racism to attract voters to the PS. He already started this strategy in the 2003 parliamentary election when Tony Halme was elected.
As anti-immigration and anti-Islam continue to give the PS its political modus operandi as we saw in the last election, it could well become his political Waterloo since racism is never a humble servant but cantankerous and extremely violent.
Ylen Päivän kasvo -ohjelmassa vieraillut perussuomalaisten puheenjohtaja Timo Soini sanoo, että Suomen poliitikot ovat käyttäneet hyväkseen Norjan murhenäytelmää yhdistämällä kaikki perussuomalaiset äärimielipiteisiin ja vihapuheeseen. Soini haluaa tehdä selväksi, että hän ei hyväksy väkivaltaa, ja katsoo, että viha on tuhoava voima.
Which one of theses “Racist” issues should Timo denounce first for having the most racist overtones
The cost of asylum and the long term problem that many illegal immigrants are uneducated
With the new EU states it could bring cheap labour which could threaten the jobs of all Finnish citizens not just one who are “White”
That having an open border is bring criminals into the Finland
That radical Islam and European values are two different to co exist in one country together
That begging is a result of human trafficking and also has other serious criminal connections
That funding towards immigrant groups may actually cause exclusion instead of integration
Because I have heard many of theses are what PS are talking about and they are also what many Finnish citizens are also talking about and want addressed.And I have looked at them and can not find which of theses would you would find racist
As the question of what racism is is a very debatable question would to be possible to post a list of all those PS members and PMs who have been convicted on a charge involving “Race” of some kind . Which would be a good start to look at the racism which you say is epidermic in PS. There was Teuvo Hakkarainen stupid views but no charge was brought against him so we must not include him in the debate only those who have been convicted of a charge.
–Which one of theses “Racist” issues should Timo denounce first for having the most racist overtones
Mika, do you know how the debate on immigration by groups like the PS and especially the Halla-aho group reminds me of? Of the 1960s when we were discussing women’s rights and if they had the right to wear pants. Back then those giving the opinions were men, which makes it all quite ridiculous.
With respect to your points why don’t you do an easier thing: Keep all foreigners out of Finland then you won’t have any problems. These points below are fine to make but they show you’ve been on Homma and Scripta maybe too long. It is a good thing that you have come to Migrant Tales to get a different view. It is a positive step.
–The cost of asylum and the long term problem that many illegal immigrants are uneducated
We are a rich country where asylum-seekers can find safety. How many illegal immigrants are there in Finland? How many are uneducated?
–With the new EU states it could bring cheap labour which could threaten the jobs of all Finnish citizens not just one who are “White”
Is this why Finland should leave the EU? It means you will not have the right to work in another EU country. Is this a good thing? Cheap labor is a problem of the employers and the system. Don’t blame the immigrant.
–That having an open border is bring criminals into the Finland
Even with hermitically sealed borders you will have crime in Finland.
–That radical Islam and European values are two different to co exist in one country together
How much radical Islam are you speaking of? Is it as big of a threat as you claim? A columnist made a very good point about Norway: When a “white” terrorist kills people he is an individual monster but when a Muslim does it it is the whole group. Funny logic, no?
–That begging is a result of human trafficking and also has other serious criminal connections
The begging is due to poverty. Could you tell us about how a beggar is involved in “serious criminal connections.” Why would a criminal want to waste time with the few euros that a beggar makes?
That funding towards immigrant groups may actually cause exclusion instead of integration
–Please elaborate. I’m lost here.
You are using the expression “illegal immigrant” incorrectly. You need to learn the fundamentals of the Finnish immigration system. Start with section 40 of the Aliens Act.
The price of labour in Finland is very largely determined by nationally binding collective agreements. Finnish employers who fail to comply with these agreements are breaking the law. The legally binding minimum rates are neither set by immigrants, nor in any sense can immigrants be held responsible for lawbreaking by Finnish employers.
The labour market is also not a zero-sum system with a finite number of jobs. Successive Finnish governments have made tripartite incomes policy agreements with Finnish trade unions and Finnish employers seeking to balance the purchasing power of earned income against the capacity of the labour market to generate and retain jobs. Your view that low pay threatens jobs is the diametric opposite of one of the key economic cornerstones of the agreements negotiated over most of the postwar period. Can you give a plausible economic justification for your view? Thought not.
You cannot show that “having an open border (which we don’t have anyway) is bring[ing] criminals into [the] Finland”, at least in the non-trivial sense. Can you come up with more than the usual nonsense that stopping all immigrants will also stop immigrants who commit offences? This is as useful as pointing out that stopping car imports will stop drunken drivers. By the same reasoning all other countries should stop Finns from entering, because that would similarly stop criminals. Sweden should have done this in the 60s, and then we would never have had those “en Finne igen” headlines.
Radical nationalism is similarly incompatible with “European values”. What’s your concrete policy proposal? Putting a swastika tattoo on schoolchildren who espouse radical nationalist views and then rounding them up for special rehabilitation?
It will come as news to yhteisvastuukeräys, 4H yhdistykset and Suomen punainen risti that their “background is human trafficking and it has serious criminal connections”. Is that what you would tell the squaddies when they shake the sotainvalidikeräys tin in front of your face if you weren’t so afraid of getting a thick ear for your pains? How about the Finnish guy who plays the trumpet on the corner of Hakaniemi Square in Helsinki in all weathers? How about the students from SibA who make a few shekels from passing tourists in Aleksi during the summer and also brighten up the city at these times? Or is it only begging when foreigners do it?
Have you even bothered to study the details of any “funding towards immigrant groups” to find out what these programmes do in practice? Have you ever been involved in any of these programmes? How about this one, this one or this one? How about the recently completed Immigratum –project in the Tampere region, or the national SPECIMA project of a few years ago? Volunteers are always welcome, and even a closed-minded bigot might learn something edifying from the experience.
I wont respond to your post because you seem to have called me a bigot and I wont take my self down to your level, (And you accuse PS of using mindless phrase towards people )
If you think anyone who has a critical view of immigration is a bigot then what i have written is for you because it may help you understand where you are going wrong the.
Many wont address issues on immigration because they don’t to admit a few truths and theses people call any critical views on immigration as racist which makes them believe that if the view is racist then a party who promotes them must also be racists.
This is the problem with those who are opposed to populist parties have, what they see is what they have created in their head and not what it is in reality but most Finnish people do not see PS as racists,
If you want to understand who PS are and why people vote for them you have to put your self in the shoes of the people who vote from them and not in your own. .
PS got 19% in the election and still you call them racist which means you are insulting the intelligence of Finnish people for thinking they are not intelligent enough to not see that the PS are driven by hate which is a example of how you are not going to win many friends in the public.
Its a fact that many anti fascist groups have dropped attacking populist parties with the “Nazi” and “Racist” tags.For one reason it was not getting them anywhere but the main reason was they found in counter proactive with connecting with the voters as many voters thought that using those tags was juvenile and that anyone who uses words like that was not able or willing to debate their view,
Many anti populist groups have now started to debate the views of the populist in a attempt to prove them wrong (that also has failed) and I am happy to see you want to because many on this blog are still in the belief that they can us dark age methods to try and stop the populist parties.
The populist parties in other countries are growing in every election not always by huge amounts but their is always forward movement. And to try to stop them the “Racist” tag has been used and all ended in failure. If it did not work in “Liberal” Sweden or Holland why would you think it would work in right leaning Finland?
Expect the next blog subject on this site to be about how racist PS are
–if you think anyone who has a critical view of immigration is a bigot then what i have written is for you because it may help you understand where you are going wrong the.
Mika, you need to get your facts right. Your views have been tainted and/or reinforced by sites like Homma and Scripta, which carry a lot of racist baggage in their arguments. Those sites are like public toilets were people write on the wall their obscenities and fantasies ANONYMOUSLY. When you take these sites seriously it is like taking the writing on the bathroom wall seriously. Think for a moment: How many of these people would let out their hate fantasies (like sexual fantasies) if they commented with their real names?
All you have there are people with the same bigoted view of things. It is a good thing that you visit us and discuss these things but unfair to accuse us that we are part of some conspiracy that “does not want to debate immigration.” What next? I suggest that you get your facts right and tell your buddies on Homma and Scripta what we told you.
JD called you a bigot. I’d go further and call you thick as two short planks. You said JD didn’t want to debate you? Well that’s exactly what he did – he took each of the points you made and provided clear arguments that refuted your basic premise. You, however, did not debate him. On the contrary, you went on and on and on and on about racist attacks against PS. Actually, JD didn’t mention racism once, or racist. You, however, mentioned it 13 times!!!!
I guess you think that’s an argument you can win, you narrow minded little racist!
I do not agree with your views but I not use words which are disrespectful towards others I am better that .So i expect that in return from others .
And as i did not get that respect and because I was called a bigot I wont go to the level of JD, and now it seems you also inhabit the same level. Had I been given some respect I would answer those question but I wont as i was not given any respect from people that seem to need to learn some social skills
If you read my post I did not mention racist attacks the subject is about that PS should denounce their racism .As my post explains if you spend the time to read through, although I did go on a bit I would admit that. You will see that my argument is that I and many others do not see PS or its policies as racist.,But those who may do are seeing PS how they want to see them and not how they are in reality. so are they trying to stop the “Real” PS or the “Fake” PS
So my question was the issues I typed do they have racist overtones if not then how can PS be asked to denounce their racism when it does appear that they have any.
And I also brought the issue in if calling them racist is also insulting to the voters who vote for them in return could that create symptom for them which would increase their votes which has happened in many other countries, so this goes onto sort of onto my second point, that you do not seem to be looking at other anti populist groups in Europe and because of which you are not learning from their mistakes or failures
If this outcry over the PS as being racists is a way discredit them which seems to be the thread on this blog and this is why I brought this issue in. The tactic to try discredit them as “Racist” and “Nazis” has been tried many times in other countries across Europe and failed. So I struggling to see how Finland is going to be the exception to the rule. I hope you could help me that with that question because this is a answer I would really like to know
PS are a political party and a political party is either a success or its a failures by its votes its well known that a small percentage of members/supporters are committed Nationalists or socialists or whatever. And many vote for different parties in each election depending on your needs so theses are the people who are going to stop PS not you or not me agreed.
And I think this where you are gong completely wrong your seeing this through your view points and not through many others .You have a obsession with HOMMA most PS voters do not even know what HOOMA is let alone have a interest in it and even those who have anti immigration view may not go on it for two reasons the first they may not want to go on it and two they just have the time and you also forget that many PS are middle aged or older and those are not aware with the computer age we now find us in.
So looking at PS and their votes and who votes for them maybe you should drop HOMMA or decrees its value on how it has influenced PS, it has I would agree some but not as much as you give it credit for
Many people work around PS members and those you have stood for parliament now if you view is that they are all extremists or bigots or whatever spending on average around eight hours per day around theses people you would eventually find out what theses people really are. And if look at the votes for the those who stood for PS at the election even those who where not able to win a seat then you will see that most voters know who theses people are and are willing to trust them.
The easy answer to are PS what you claim to them be is this,
If we respect the intelligence of Finnish people then if we believe that PS is what you think they are would have 560,075 average Finnish people voted for them? Of course they would not..
You are seeing PS how you want to them to be and because of what you put on this blog about PS those you do support PS who go on this blog can use that to create a lot of symptom for PS if you keep calling them “Racist” for having a critical view on immigration by that logic only racists would vote for party like that.If you are aware on how populists parties became big in Europe especially off the back of political attacks and state oppression and cheap comments then you must understand the folly of trying to discredit them in this manner.You really do not understand how the poetical game works you tried to attack PS before the election in the same way you are doing now and look how far that got you which shows you have not learnt from your mistakes
Before I answer your others question I would like your opinion on the court case in Romania about gangs who human trafficked people into Finland and then put to work begging .
And if you was approached by someone who said that is the reason why i am voting PS then how would you reply to that would you admit that the court case happened and say even though PS would stop that don’t vote for them as they are racist.
Or would you say that there was no court case in the first place
Nothing but PS bashing and finger pointing in here. Wonderous blog we have here. Surely the bridge building and solutions lessening the gap between anti/pro immigration groups can be found here… not
If governments do not address immigration concerns then why are populists parties so big?
of course there are other reason but they gain more votes on that issue than any other.
Since there rises of populist parties there has been more talk of immigration but there is a level which certain political parties will go on this issue the populists will go more further . Governments over the last few decades have not been willing to be more open about immigration issues and they do tend to use words like “Racist” to stop people raising the issue. Mainstream political parties have to take a lot of blame for how big the populist parties have become instead of sitting there and saying we do not understand why people vote for them
You got spanked and now you are scampering back to hommaforum whimpering about how you won’t take yourself down to “my level”. That’s the level where you investigate facts and think about what you write.
That’s two of these PS apologists running away on the same day.
Back to the same thing again: another 8 mentions of racist and racism, and again, the charge that PS are racist or Nazi. Okay, this is what you want to debate – let’s debate it.
“The tactic to try discredit them as “Racist” and “Nazis” has been tried many times in other countries across Europe and failed.”
I take it ‘them’ is populist parties that have their roots in the nationalist parties of old? You are right that there has been a sea change, and in many cases now, nationalist or populist parties are much more careful to guard against having overtly racist policies, although, unsurprisingly, many of the members forget the party line in forums and discussions. Much of the original racism (up to the late 90s) was geared towards people of African descent. Asians were better tolerated, but in post 9/11, Islamaphobia has taken over. You even hear nationalists now saying ‘well the blacks are okay, it’s them bloody Arabs you gotta watch for!’. Nationalists and populists are basically a ‘them and us’ club, with the ‘us’ having changed in recent decades.
No longer are Jews the biggest hate of the Far Right, though some neo-Nazi’s often lament the sell-out to Israel by most of Europe’s populist and nationalist parties. In fact, these parties are now among the strongest supporters of Israel, though Israel is by no means impressed by that, as they have long memories and consider the current positivism and dropping of anti-Semitism from the ‘hate inventory’ as merely political opportunism, which of course it is.
You see, the populists and the nationalist parties have very few platforms from which to woo voters, because their economic and social policies often split their own support, some leaning to the left and ‘worker’s rights’, and other’s leaning to the conservative right and ‘small government’ and no charity for the poor. The one thing that really does unite the populist part is the generalised and implicit hate of the ‘other’. 🙂
The simple act of identifying immigration as a/the key social and economic platform reveals one thing – blatant racism. Why? Because there are far greater challenges facing the Finnish economy than ‘paying for the immigrants’, as the popular perception likes to focus on. Likewise, there are far greater social challenges for Finland, including an ageing population, mental health stigma, a large population of long-term unemployed and also signficant alcohol and domestic abuse. These issues are far more significant, but why aim for real social reform when you can bash the foreigners?
Do we hear PS banging on about more kindergartens or better pay for nurses or even more female MPs in their own party? No. Why? Because they don’t galvanise support in the way that ‘moaning about those bloody foreigners’ does. Nothing like telling a Finn his national identity is threatened: cue his beer-swelled gut heaving-ho to the oars and rowing that boat out to war! It’s just so stupid, really. But it wins votes.
Especially among the working class and UNEMPLOYED males. Note: PS’s biggest demographic are the lazy Finns who don’t want to work and would rather blame foreigners for taking their jobs than get off their fat arses and finding a job. Well, I exaggerate a bit, but you get the irony and the hypocracy of it all, I’m sure.
Of course, that is not PS’s only demographic, for sure. There are many hard-working mates of those unemployed bums who will happily share a beer and a moan about those bloody foreigners spoiling their perfect Finland!
Now don’t get me wrong, I love a beer and i’ve got my own gut to heave-ho when I need to, but it tickles me pink that PS are trying to present themselves these days as a party of ‘deep thinkers’ who have managed to suss out societies greatest ills and are fast cleaning up the mess of other parties. It’s just not true.
But worse still. While many PS supporters nowadays consider most politicians are remote, slimy and slithery boffins who don’t give to shits about them or their economic prospects, there is also a small band of very committed activists that are genuinely pushing an extreme right wing agenda backed up by all the typical sophisticated arguments and justifications for ‘getting tough’. And those beer-swilling baffoons lap it all up and say, yeah, man, that’s it, that’s how it is! Tell it straight. For them, the PS candidates are ‘blokes’ and ‘lasses’ like themselves, people they can identify with, who have the same prejudices as them and are happy to slag people off.
You know, there should be a difference between a politician and an ordinary bloke. An ordinary bloke can afford to let off steam once in a while, moan a bit in a incoherant way as a means of dealing with tough times, or even even having a few prejudices as a way of blaming others for their own misfortunes or lack of endeavour. But politicians should represent something better than the ordinary. I know they so often don’t, but if we lower the bar to the ‘ordinary bloke in the street’, politics and the job of government and setting laws becomes filled with the same pettiness and incoherance the bloke in the street has. And I put myself in that category. There are many things that I just can’t be bothered to think through and my first and probably only opinion is ill-informed and woolly. Immigration is not one of those things, mind.
The point is, Mika, I understand exactly the appeal of PS. But you just have to look deeper. Deeper into the political and social values built into their rhetoric and deeper into the history of these groups to get an idea of what informs their core activism, because they are the ones that would eventually make the real policy.
It’s a real shame that PS didn’t get into government, because then we’d really see their real political talent or lack of it.
Wow you’ve got a short memory. What was your opening shot again?
Suddenly it’s not disrespectful to call us criminals?
When the populist parties where on the rise there was opinion that if we call them “Racist” of “Nazis” then that would stop them, even if they where “Racist of “Nazi” that did not work the votes show that . So the question is why would someone use that tactic in Finland even if it was true.when it has been shown that as a way to stop populist party it does not work
“That having an open border is bring criminals into the Finland”
Since the new countries have joined the EU there has been a increase in petty crime from people coming into Finland from the new EU countries , Of course there has been crime for the old EU states but what we are seeing is not a just a few incidents but something which could become more worse to the level of epidermic which could effect us all as we are all possible victims of crime.
.And my worry is that the government will not do anything about it because this was a result of EU policy and we saw with the last government that falling foul of the EU was more of a worry to them than falling foul to the Finnish people.And with a pro EU government we still have why would this be any different .
So this is issue is something you associate with PS and this has no racist overtones what so eve and I challenge anyone to find some
Since Finland started importing motor vehicles there has been an increase in automobile-related accidents involving imported motor vehicles. Since Finland introduced credit cards there has been an increase in credit fraud. Since Finns started playing golf there has been an increase in golfing accidents, including lightning strikes on golf courses.
When Finland exported population to Sweden in the 1960s there was a massive increase in crimes committed by Finns in Sweden. I am sure that if we took the trouble to look, then we would an increase in crimes committed by Finns in new EU Member States (especially those serial kiddie fiddlers). Remember this?
This is no more surprising that finding wet grass after a thunderstorm. If you want to argue that people develop criminal tendencies merely by crossing borders, then you will have to quantify your argument and provide some theory of mechanism. If this mechanism includes the view that people from some places are inherently more likely to commit criminal offences, then there’s a good chance that someone here will call you a (gasp) racist bigot and also remind you of the Swedish concept of itärikollisuus in the early 1970s.
– “When the populist parties where on the rise there was opinion that if we call them “Racist” of “Nazis” then that would stop them, even if they where “Racist of “Nazi” that did not work the votes show that.”
God, you are so naive. Is that all you think this is about – party politics? Have you ever, ever entertained the other possibility, that the accusation of ‘racism’ actually stemmed from the nature of the party’s policies and argumentation put forward on immigration?
Your logic is rather lame, Mika. Lots of people voted for us therefore we cannot be racist.
– “And my worry is that the government will not do anything about it because this was a result of EU policy and we saw with the last government that falling foul of the EU was more of a worry to them than falling foul to the Finnish people.”
So, your extremely simplified and retarded view of the issue of EU immigration is that it pushes up crime, which could affect us all (now that would be some leap in crime statistics), and the EU does nothing about it and neither does the Finnish government because they’re scared of the EU? That’s the level of sophistication of your conception of the politics of immigration?
So when’s your book coming out?
Are you trying to say that Mari Kiviniemi did not know that supporting the bailouts could loss her job. And I dont remember (prove me wrong) that she stood up in EU meeting somewhere and said my citizens are not happy with this situation .
No she followed the EU line and thankfully lost her job because of it. Heads of EU countries are scared of offending their EU masters that’s why many people have a issue with their governments pandering to it..
DPP where responsible for returning border checks for the same reason i have mentioned.
are you trying to say that other parties in the Danish government did not ask for proof that their was enough crime coming from the EU to consider that border checks should be brought back .If so are you now saying that the all other parties in the Danish parliament are in league with the DPP?
If they are not then other parties must have asked for crime statics before they agreed to put back border checks shouldn’t they?
This why I have been saying that you can not stop the PS with your views and comments because your views comments are designed for your own internet world and not for the real world . If you think they are why did you try and challenge me on the issue of EU Crime when you must know what Denmark did makes your view that there is not a issue with EU Crime straight away completely wrong.
–For those who still believe that the mass killings in Norway will not impact parties like the Perussuomalaiset (PS) and hate websites in this country should think twice. Migrant Tales was right: there is already clear evidence that living in a post-22/7 Europe has torn a hole in the argument of the anti-immigrant populists and extremists in Finland.
There is a thing called accountability in a democracy. You cannot just appear on the scene and start bashing immigrants, Muslims, minorities and others that you don’t like because you are misinformed. In a democracy you are held accountable like with what happened in Norway. People are rightfully asking why did a mass killer in Norway quote Halla-aho. Now, if you think people will overlook such a fact, I think you are wrong.
I am not religious but there is a saying in the Bible: Live by the sword, die by the sword. That could be adapted to: Preach hatred and hatred will end up destroying you as Soini said.