Is Aamulehti’s claim of high rape convictions by foreigners in Finland correct?

by , under Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

Thirty-four percent of  convicted rape crimes committed during 2006-09 in Finland were by foreigners, according to Tampere-based Aamulehti. What is surprising, however, is that Aamulehti chose not to mention 2010 and 2011 suspected rape crimes, which totaled 141 (27.5% of all rape cases) and 109 (26%) in 2010 and 2011, respectively, according to Hannu Niemi of the Justice Ministry.

There are a lot of holes and question marks  about Toni Viljanmaa’s story. One of these is if it is a story at all. Or if the story should be that rape convictions have gone down sharply from 2006-09. There were a total of 261 convictions for rape during this three-year period.

If Viljanmaa claims that there were 34% convicted rapes during the period under review, he forgets to tell us that the actual number is 24% for all types of rapes.  If there were 141 and 109 suspected cases in 2010 and 2011 this suggests that convictions would be far less than the 34% claimed by Aamulehti.

Another big hole in Viljanmaa’s story is what types of “foreigners” is he referring to? The statistics he cites include permanent residents as well as tourists, according to Niemi.

Niemi told Migrant Tales that he had no idea why the Tampere daily published the news, which was picked up by Iltalehti. “You’d have to ask the paper [their motives for publishing these statistics],” he said. “This is public information. If a journalist asks us these types of statistics we are obliged to give it to him.”

While we are not playing down a crime like rape, what we should be asking is what does a story like this do to invite open and honest debate about a serious problem in our society and, most importantly, how to address it?

Apart from labeling and giving ammunition to anti-immigration groups to continue their victimization of certain immigrant groups, we should not forget another important legal point: A person is innocent until proven guilty.

On top of these distortions and editorializing by the reporter, he on top of this interviews an Iraqi resident and asks what he thinks about the situation.

This story is a good example of shoddy and lazy journalism.

  1. eyeopener

    Hi MT.

    First of all: rape is a serious crime. No doubt about that.

    The writing of this article only addresses one group and stating “34% of the convicted rapes during the period under review” What about the rapes that also happened but failed to get into court?? Un-reported, dropped from proscecution. No word about that.

    This only demonstrates the ignorance of Aamulehti how to read the statistics properly. The journalist mispresents the data from the Ministry “deliberately”.

    I do agree with you that “dumping everything and everybody on one heap” is misguiding the reader “deliberately. To my notion this journalst doesnot take his job seriously.

    This is how a minority shouts very loud. It’s the paper’s economics not “the reality of facts”. In this sense Aamulehti and this journalist are co-responsible for creating or maintaining a “stereotype of the foreigner”

    It would have been more accurate and more proper to define what should be understood by “foreigner”.

    Simple as can be. Did you expect more from this “news-paper”. Tabloïd is a better qualification.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi eyeopener, the more I investigate this story about rape cases in 2006-09 the more fishy and full of holes it appears.

      I sent the managing editor and the reporter an email pointing out these matters. I invited them to comment on Migrant Tales if they wished.

  2. Mark

    Well, take one look in the comments section and you can see exactly what the effect of publishing these kinds of misleading statistics is. It makes me so bloody angry to see this kind of shit in a national newspaper!

  3. Joonas

    It is interesting to see how statics about hate crimes- and racism towards immigrants/foreigners are considered liable in this blog, but when the statics says something negative about immigrants/foreigners it is bullshit. And no, I’m not saying that these statics are liable either, but just wondering about these double standard.

  4. Mark

    Joonas

    Get out of here [edited version]. Go back through my posts and you will see that time and again I have said that the statistics on racism in Finland are unreliable, like all measures of racism in any country. It’s a very difficult thing to measure, for obvious reasons. People try to hide it.

    You miss the important[edited] point. Foreigners are being actively stigmatized. And I for one am so[edited] fed up with it. And then there are silly people[edited] like you who have nothing better to do than coming here to this blog and try to accuse us of ‘double standards’. Go away[edited]!

    Why do I bother! Half you flip-floppers [edited] are going to lie about what we say anyway!

  5. Joonas

    Mark

    Whoa, Mark, calm down. I did not mean to offend you. I just asked why the statics about hate crimes- and crimes towards minorities are liable, but these are not. Shouldn’t both statics be questionable?

  6. Mark

    Joonas

    I am really fed up. I read through pages and pages of those comments on Aamulehti, and it was truly truly depressing to see the view that people have about foreigners or how easily they accept this. Maybe these are just PS supporters rallying to a story that gives them succour, but for me, as a foreigner and as someone who knows a bit more about the topic, it was really depressing. It IS stigmatization. How many people are we talking about at the end of the day that have committed sexual crimes? What percentage of the total foreign population, and by that, I include also the visiting foreign population, which are often lumped into the statistics too?

    How many innocent immigrants are there? 100s of 1000s! And yet they all get tarred by this brush and this bushwhack politics.

    YOU were wrong to suggest that we don’t question the reliability of statistics on racism. Plain wrong. And on the strength of that, you accused us of double standards.

    I’m not in the mood for that kind of sloppy and lazy criticism, Joonas.

  7. Joonas

    And I didn’t mean that YOU are saying that statics about racism are liable. My first comment wasn’t directed to you, but to people who blindly follow the statics which strengthen their former believes. It can be either a believe that foreigners group “X” are committing crimes or that all foreigners are facing racism.

  8. Mark

    Joonas

    Yes, but why come here today to comment on this story and talk about this ‘general’ problem of people not questioning statistics about racism?

    Don’t you see the problem here? Immigrants are being blatantly stigmatized in a national newspaper, and I didn’t see a single comment that questioned it! Not fucking one. Except mine.

  9. Farang

    Enrique:

    “we should not forget another important legal point: A person is innocent until proven guilty.”

    What do you mean by that? The article mentioned CONVICTIONS, so it means those persons have already been proven guilty.

    Mark:

    What does it tell about you that you constantly use that kind of language? That kind of verbal attacks usually occur when a person realises being wrong and can’t find anymore arguments in favour of ones own agenda. So what does this tell about you? There are these few people who are criticizing immigration who you and your kind are claiming to be racists. But I don’t see these people using language like “fuck you” towards you.

    • Migrant Tales

      –What do you mean by that? The article mentioned CONVICTIONS, so it means those persons have already been proven guilty.

      The figures that Viljanmaa uses to show high rapes by a certain national group is from 2010 and 2011 ARE suspected rapes.

  10. Mark

    Farang

    That kind of verbal attacks usually occur when a person realises being wrong and can’t find anymore arguments in favour of ones own agenda.

    Or when they see the sheer scale of an injustice that no-one gives a fuck about! Go away [edited] Farang. I’m not in the mood for your condascending comments. Go slag off immigrants somewhere else you silly person [edited]!

  11. Mark

    Farang

    Happy now? No you don’t tell anyone to fuck off, you just come here to stigmatize foreigners, over and over and over and over and over again. And you want my respsect? Unbelievable!

  12. Farang

    Enrique,

    That 34% was based on convictions. The figures referring to Iraqis were about suspected rapes.

    Just want to make sure that you don’t try to twist the fact that during years 2009-2011 34% of the rapes were done by foreigners. Since that comment of yours in the end of the article was placed so that it might confuse reader that all the figures in article were about suspected rapes.

  13. Mark

    Farang

    Some of your comments on this blog have had to be removed because they were illegal: RL 11:10, i.e. ethnic agitation.

    But hey, go ahead and complain about my profanity if it makes you feel more superior, I don’t give a sausage!

  14. Farang

    It’s not about respect. It just eats your credibility when you use language like that. Please try to discuss in civilized manner.

    Occasionally I’m very frustrated myself when it looks like you or your friends just don’t get the point, but still I control myself and behave.

    • Migrant Tales

      –but still I control myself and behave.

      Sure, Farang, whatever you say. Mark is a very sensible person. Some of the baloney that goes on in Finland, like the Aamulehti story, is a good example that many still don’t get it.

  15. Farang

    Mark, actually none of my comments have been illegal. If you interpret something as illegal, it doesn’t mean it actually is illegal.

  16. Mark

    Farang

    It’s not about respect. It just eats your credibility when you use language like that. Please try to discuss in civilized manner.

    Why, so knobs like you don’t get to see how angry this makes me? You do realise that Joonas was lying about what this blog says about statistics, and using that to call us out for ‘double standards’? You do realise that it doesn’t matter what we say or how politely, pricks like you are going to go on slagging off foreigners and not for one second stopping to think if you are stigmatizing whole groups of people and what that does to their quality of life!

    Occasionally I’m very frustrated myself when it looks like you or your friends just don’t get the point, but still I control myself and behave.

    Occasionally you break the law in your racist remarks. See my comment above about the your comments removed for breaking the Finnish law on ethnic agitation.

    And I don’t think that profanity says anything about the strength or lack of it in an argument, only the level of frustration the person is feeling. You pricks come here without any desire to debate, you come here to slag off foreigners, constantly. You don’t want to listen for one second to what foreigners might have to say about that. YOu have the cheek to call us racists! And you think I am happy to take that crap 24/7 and then see this kind of story in a national newspaper? And then not one person in the comments showing even a shred of criticality or looking to understand this thing better or even to think what the effect is going to be of presenting a story like this on the INNOCENT foreigners living in Finland, who are the vast majority of foreigners in Finland. NO, Finns too busy slagging off foreigners to think about what is fair. It’s disgusting!

  17. Mark

    Farang

    Just how much of this crap am I supposed to listen to before I start saying ‘what the fuck is going on!’ Does anyone care? Do you care? Do you care about innocent immigrants getting stigmatized? Do you? Do you stop for a second to even consider it? Do you stop to think what kind of life it might be for them, walking down the streets thinking ‘they think I’m a rapist/criminal/welfare scrounger/terrorist’? Well????

  18. Mark

    Farang

    Mark, actually none of my comments have been illegal. If you interpret something as illegal, it doesn’t mean it actually is illegal.

    Not true. I trust JD’s knowledge of Finnish law before I’d trust yours.

  19. Joonas

    Migrant Tales
    Would a “very sensible person” say “Fuck you” as a response to my message? I did not slander immigrants, talk shit about people in MT or anything else. I just critized how some people (not referring to Mark) are reading statics like it was a bible. He doesn’t have to agree with me, but this kind of language is not very good behavior. But to be fair, Mark has usually some good writings, maybe this is just one of his bad days.

    • Mark

      Joonas

      i don’t give a fuck. Why should I? You lot don’t care a jot whether stories like this stigmatize innocent people. You came here to imply we are using double standards and to change the subject, and you started this with a lie about how Migrant Tales views statistics. So fuck you. I’ve had enough of pricks like you telling us we should be polite and the whole time you come here to spread filth and lies about immigrants.

    • Mark

      Joonas

      Let’s see you stand up for the immigrants then? Why is this story BAD reporting? How does out make immigrant’s lives very difficult?

    • Mark

      Joonas

      I’m sorry. You are getting the brunt of my anger and you are not out worst critic, by any means. Yes. It’s a bad day. This story is really depressing for immigrants. It tells exactly how the debate is being controlled by a bunch of fascist racists. And Finns love it that Aamuilta is saying it how it is.

  20. eyeopener

    Farang.

    When do you learn to read?? Reading statistics as well.

    Convictions are those cases against which no legal appeal is possible. What is the relevance of these convictions in the period of 2006-2009?? What about the “dark number”, the number of cases that have been dropped from proscecution. What about the Finn numbers??

    That would have been real journalism. Now this article is actually rubbish.

    Furthermore. Any uncritical reader overlooks the content of “foreigner”. Who is “foreigner” here. “Everything and everybody on one heap”. Sorry Farang but I am a little more critical than you are. For you it’s convenient to be ignorant. Doesn’t help you though.

    The other statistics Farang are SUSPECTED crimes. They are still in court so nobody is convicted yet. But for you they are guilty, isn’t it?? Like: one, two…..many. Simplicity is a joy for you. And also here. what are the real figures including “dark numbers”.

    Percentages do not give the right pictures. But you are a “believer”. Continue to do so. I wonder how it feels to be so irresponsible.

  21. Farang

    Mark, none of my comments ever had anything illegal there. There hasn’t been any racism in my comments either. It’s just some little error in your brains that makes you see racism everywhere in a persons comments, if that person doesn’t agree with you. It’s only your interpretation and in your imagination.

    Please show me one single comment I have made that could be classified as racism.

    • Mark

      Farang

      We cannot publish your comment because it broke the law.

  22. eyeopener

    Hi Joonas.

    You started your contribution to the rape staistics in the wrong way. What’s the relevance of your remark about racism and hatespeech. That’s another discussion isn’t it. What has “double standards to do with the topic here.

    If you want to make a point of the people in MT are prejudices against PS, Hommaforum etc. Then you are in the wrong theatre. Tha’s why you get some tough language.

    Own mistake don’t blaim others then.

    The same goes for Farang actually.

  23. Farang

    eyeopener, if statistics show that 34 % of the convicted rapes have been done by foreigners and 66 % of the convicted rapes have been done by Finns, then what makes you think that figures would distribute noticeably differently in those rapes that have not been reported?

    • Migrant Tales

      Farang, let’s put this in perspective. There were a total of 261 convictions for all types of rape. Twenty-four percent of these are foreigners, let’s say half are residents of Finland and the other half are tourists. How many does that make in three years on average by a foreign resident in Finland? You’ll come to a double-digit figure. Certainly all kinds of rape should and is condemned strongly by our society. However, do you have a case or is it only a storm in a teacup?

  24. D4R

    Mark: Want to see how a vast majority of innocent foreigners can be stigmatized -move to Finland!!!!!!

    Mark, you see what we go through living in Finland, especially the dark ones like me God help them, im already getting weird stares like im one of them rapist, depressing that’s all ive to say.

  25. D4R

    This news gotta be a fiest for some Finns, just to let it be known to all Finns out there who scared of us, don’t be, were not all rapist or criminals, we’re individuals humanbeings like you, treat us as one.

  26. D4R

    I sometimes get the feeling that P.S has taken over this country, including the media and it’s targeting us immigrants to take us down.

  27. D4R

    Mark: Joonas

    I am really fed up. I read through pages and pages of those comments on Aamulehti, and it was truly truly depressing to see the view that people have about foreigners or how easily they accept this. Maybe these are just PS supporters rallying to a story that gives them succour, but for me, as a foreigner and as someone who knows a bit more about the topic, it was really depressing. It IS stigmatization. How many people are we talking about at the end of the day that have committed sexual crimes? What percentage of the total foreign population, and by that, I include also the visiting foreign population, which are often lumped into the statistics too?

    How many innocent immigrants are there? 100s of 1000s! And yet they all get tarred by this brush and this bushwhack politics.

    YOU were wrong to suggest that we don’t question the reliability of statistics on racism. Plain wrong. And on the strength of that, you accused us of double standards.

    I’m not in the mood for that kind of sloppy and lazy criticism, Joonas.

    This is what’s going on in Finland Mark, stigmatization day to day, imagine how i feel when i go to their comment section about us immigrants how we’re all being generalized, and then whenever i am in public i am paranoid.

  28. eyeopener

    Hi Farang.

    Distortion again. I can calculate 100-34=66. Haha very simple. What I asked you to do is to get me the right numbers of the 2006-2009 figures INCLUDING “dark numbers”.

    Remember also that 34% were CONVICTED cases. What about the number of cases that were not prosecuted?? 66% of CONVICTED cases is also very high isn’t it. But that are not the right figures.

    All reported cases please. And then the estimated “dark-numbers”. That’s an indication of cases that have happened but the victim -for some reason- is not willing to report.

    It is reasoned that most of those cases happen in the close environment of the victim. Mostly husbands, family members, freinds or close acquintances.

    Therefore you conclusion -based on non-realistic statistics- is strongly biased by your opinion about “foreigners”.

    Furthermore: Your “evidence” comes from ilatlehti. That’s a reliable source isn’t it Farang??
    Also you mentioned somewhere else two cases. Probably MUSLIM perpetrators. How do you know? Just copy-and-paste, because you believe the source. Let me give you an example of your biased reasoning.

    Suppose the statistics WOULD show that the majority of rapes (real figures after having done my research including “dark numbers” in Finland are committed by Catholic Finns who are convicted for their crimes then I have to conclude that this cultural difference is dangerous. Do you agree, Farang?

  29. Sasu

    Kaikkien meidän on muistettava, että kun sanomme ulkomaalaiset, me puhumme valtavan isosta joukosta ihmisistä, joilla ei ole melkein mitään yhteistä.

    Kun tulee joku luku ulkomaalaisten rikollisuudesta, me katomme sanaa ulkomaalainen hieman eritavalla.

    Hyvä gallup kysymys olisi kysyä minkälainen on keskiverto maahanmuuttaja?
    Arvelisin aika monen kuvaillevan jonkun ei-Eurooppalaisen.

    Itse pidän maahanmuuttaja ja ulkomaalainen termiä tosi epämääräisenä ja sekavana. Itse pyrkisin välttämään termiä silloin kun etnisyys tiedetään. Käyttäisin etnistä tai rodullista termiä, kun en puhuisi kaikista maahanmuuttajista.

  30. Yossie

    Eyeopener

    Why do you think the “dark numbers” would slide the scale for either direction?

    “It is reasoned that most of those cases happen in the close environment of the victim. Mostly husbands, family members, freinds or close acquintances.”

    Are you saying only finns are doing rapes under these situations while foreigners are not?

    • Mark

      Yossie

      It’s called a reporting threshold, and yes it would make a difference.

  31. eyeopener

    Hi Yossie.

    Need for a reading class too.!!

    What I am saying is IF you want to put rape as a crime in perspective than you have to put every case in the statistical equation. Will turn some figures in their real perspective.

    A most interesting aspect would be to research what the reason might be of “dropping cases of the list”.

    Can’t you read!! . Dark numbers are not related to one groups of offenders.

    • Migrant Tales

      –A most interesting aspect would be to research what the reason might be of “dropping cases of the list”.

      This is an excellent question by eyeopener. Why does this happen? Why are rape cases less in 2010 and 2011 than in 2006-09? What does this say?

      Here we saw an excellent example of how a major paper in Finland, Aamulehti, takes statistics and manipulates and distorts them in order to give the view that rape is a huge problem in Finland among foreigners.

      Is it such a “huge” problem in Finland among foreigners? If we used only foreign residents in Finland the numbers would be even more insignificant.

      I am not saying as disrespect at the victims of this crime but my utter outrage at Aamulehti and all those that use rape to blaspheme and victimize immigrants.

    • Mark

      Yossie

      Tukinainen say it is because the foreigner rapist is usually a stranger met in a bar who later in the evening rapes the woman. In the case of the majority of Finnish rapists, the rapist is known to the woman and part of her social network, making the consequences I would assume much more difficult for some women.

      Tukinainen put the number of foreign rapists at 6% overall. Weighting for demographics and tourist visitors would likely bring that down even further.

      Think Yossie, if there is even the smallest possibility that police statistics are skewed and for clear reasons, then this kind of bald faced reporting must be avoided.

      I ask you the same question i asked Farang, do you care at all that innocent immigrants are being stigmatised by these kinds of claims? Have you seriously considered it?

  32. Analyysissa

    why do you think Migrant Tales they want to comment on your article?

    You have changed to essence of the content in your translation (google translator?), either purposely or not.

    • Mark

      Analyysi

      Did you use google translate to translate this message? It’s incoherent. In another of your messages, you called an author a liar with no reason, other than she shared something you refused to believe. That is unacceptable. Comment was deleted.

  33. Yossie

    Mark

    By all means do link the report that states your claims.

    As long as the statistics are right, it is the foreign rapists that stigmatize the innocent people. Be angry to them.

  34. Elven archer

    If there is over representation, it’s good to know so it’s possible to deal with the problem, to develop means to correct the situation.

    What is wrong about facts getting out? If you are worried about the reputation of the immigrants, then you should join our cause for the better immigration politics. It would correct this PR problem and, what’s more important, protect the citizens.

  35. Elven archer

    “It tells exactly how the debate is being controlled by a bunch of fascist racists.”

    So now it’s fascism and racism to just report the findings of a study? The racist numbers? Fascism means the government is sticking it’s nose everywhere and controlling everything. So not been able to publish the findings would be fascism, this is quite the opposite.

  36. eyeopener

    Hi Yossie

    I am asking your argument why threshold for reporting foreigner rape would be lower?

    I am saying that the real figures should be published and then we discuss. I distaste BLABLABLA because of guessing.

  37. Yossie

    Eyeopener

    You made a good point. It is weird that there isnt any actual link to the statistics that are being refered in the article. Now we just get some cherry picks.

  38. Elven archer

    “Remember also that 34% were CONVICTED cases. What about the number of cases that were not prosecuted??”

    What about them? You have no reason to believe the percentages in those would be different, have you? And those cases simply not matter when we are not talking about them, but these which are known.

    “66% of CONVICTED cases is also very high isn’t it.”

    No, it’s not for the 97 %.

    “It is reasoned that most of those cases happen in the close environment of the victim. Mostly husbands, family members, freinds or close acquintances.”

    So you think that the emancipated and independent Finnish women reported those more rarely than for example the middle-eastern women living in a more patriarchal family, having maybe trust issues against officials in a foreign country, having less places and friends to go to after pressing charges against for example a husband?

    That doesn’t make any sense. There is no problem talking about the cases we know. It’s pointless to speculate the unknown. It has no relevance in this matter, it’s an entirely different matter.

    • Mark

      Elven, Yossie and any other knucklehead who wants to politicise rape!

      Your views are at complete odds with rape researchers in Finland. Here is the article that I referred to earlier, which unlike the Aamulehti article is a very balanced report, and makes all the right points, including the most important – a recognition that it is all too easy to stigmatize foreigners by trying to make use of the statistics for political purposes.

      The question of stigmatization of foreigners is an important one. It is completely unrelated to the issue of whether rape should be condemned or how the victims feel. I have no problem with discussing rape or rape by foreigners, or cultural differences in regard to women and to sex, in exactly the way that HS had done. What I object to is the way statistics are offered with no discussion and with the implication that they are somehow give a totally accurate picture of rape in Finland.

      Now, to the question I asked – do you care whether foreigners are stigmatized:

      Elven – “Do you care about innocent women being raped?”

      This is not an answer, and yes I do care about the rape of women. Let me see, Elven, have you ever been involved in any campaigns to stop violence against women? I have, several!

      Yossie – “As long as the statistics are right, it is the foreign rapists that stigmatize the innocent people. Be angry to them.”

      This is plainly false. All the comments at Aamulehti were by Finns and they were very happy to be convinced that the story was an accurate picture of rape in Finland and that the ‘truth’ had come out! Finns are doing the stigmatizing.

      So neither of you bums cares that innocent immigrants get stigmatized! And you are not alone.

  39. Elven archer

    “I am saying that the real figures should be published and then we discuss. I distaste BLABLABLA because of guessing.”

    The real figures about the unknown? I guess we’ll be waiting quite some time because the unknown is and remains the unknown even by definition. If more cases get revealed then they are not anymore a part of that unknown. So there’s now reason to not talk about what is known.

  40. Mark

    Analyysi

    Why are you not allowed to say that an author is a liar just because she’s a foreigner? It’s called human decency. There are plenty of other forums where you can call immigrants liars to your hearts content. This is not one of them.

  41. eyeopener

    Hi Elf.

    I think you better stop your repeat of moves as chess players use to say.

    Over-presenatation can only be established when ALL data are there.

    Doi I care about innocent women being raped. YES!! But that goes for ALL VICTIMS (known and unknown) You concern yourself -as a matter of mental masturbation- with a SECTION of the victims. You seem to make a difference in the meaning of rape committed by Finns and foreigners. I suggest you get your arse of the chair of the psychologist.

    I am as much worried about the reputation of Finns as of foreigners. You don’t seem to ghive a s——- about Finns rapists. Do you??

    Your PR?? Go get yourself a marketing bureau!!

    “So now it’s fascism and racism to just report the findings of a study”. No relevance to the discussion Elf. Distrotion again. You are getting a bore.

    Educate yourself better in this field Elf.

  42. I am

    Analyssa, Monalyssa
    Good evening
    I am treating u equally oh brother hugs
    Talk, what u have in ur deep heart say about Dana,
    U r free, u r right
    U r welcome like all on MT
    Personaly my ears are with u
    Here, talk please
    : )

    • Mark

      Analyysissa

      YOu have been trying to have a general discussion about foreigners lying as a way to justify making a specific allegation against an author on Migrant Tales. That argument is not accepted. The comment was deleted, as will subsequent replies that continue along the same lines. These are our community standards, if you don’t like them, go elsewhere.

  43. Elven archer

    “”Tukinainen say it is because the foreigner rapist is usually a stranger met in a bar who later in the evening rapes the woman. In the case of the majority of Finnish rapists, the rapist is known to the woman and part of her social network, making the consequences I would assume much more difficult for some women.”

    You are mixing up two things. The rapes done by strangers and the rapes done by someone the victim knows. There’s no point in that because for example you could also argue quite the opposite based on what you said. You could argue that foreign women don’t report as often the rapes done by someone they know. You could argue that the majority of Finnish rapists been part of a woman’s social network would mean that Finnish women report the incidents a way more easily or else there would also be a majority of foreign rapists being part of a (foreign) woman’s network because of course they have their own networks too. Now you are assuming that the foreign rapists don’t rape people they know and there’s no foundation to assume that.

    • Mark

      Elven

      So, you know better than a rape researcher who has studied rape in Finland and specifically rape by foreigners, both here and elsewhere? Like you think you know the essence of Islam without speaking a word of Arabic!

      You could argue that foreign women don’t report as often the rapes done by someone they know.

      I don’t see a problem with that argument. How many foreign women are married to Finns?

      Let’s see how the factors mentioned by Tukinainen can affect the statistics:

      Let’s put reported rapes at 100 for sake of easy maths. Rapes by Finns 65, rapes by foreigners 35. As a bald statistic, this would give foreigners committing 35% of rapes. Appalling. Cue total outrage, PS winning a landslide election result. Rässänen calling for tougher sentences!

      Let’s say that foreigner rapes are 95% date rapes. (i.e. effect of cultural differences)

      Let’s say that 100% of date rapes are reported, because of their shocking nature and the involvement of a stranger, with few effects on existing social networks.

      That means that 33 rapes by foreigners are date rapes. 2 rapes are of people known.

      Of the 65 rapes by Finns, only 5% are date rapes. That means 3 date rapes are by Finns, and 62 rapes are of people known.

      Now let’s say that only 15% of rapes by someone known are reported.

      If 62 rapes (know to victim) by Finns is only 15% of the real number, the real number would be 413, with total rapes (date + known) by Finns being 416.

      If 2 (known to victim) by foreigners is only 15% of the real number, the real number of rapes by foreigners would be 13, and the total rapes (date + known) would be 46.

      Total rapes of foreigners and Finns (both reported and unreported) = 416 + 46 = 462

      However, the share of rapes would now be:

      Finns – 416 of 462 = 90%
      Foreigners – 46 of 462 = 10%

      If you also factor in that rape perpetrators are more likely to be younger, and that the proportion per population of younger people among immigrants is higher, then that 10% when properly weighted would likely come down to about 6%. This is probably still a bit higher than the average Finnish, but it is not 35%. However, you could take for example the date rapes statistics on their own and claim that they were committed 92% by foreigners. This is exactly the tactic of those trying to politicise rape.

      Elven – go take a hike!

  44. I am

    Mark, what bubble are you living in?
    Asylum seekers (for protection) claim they lie to improve their chances for a positive answer on the application. Dana’s story stinks, I believe it is a lie.
    I would have done the same in that situation, if it improved my chances.
    Human decency, I was not complaining on anything. I just said it was one of those.
    What would you have done in Dana’s situation? Applied high moral or lied?

    Analissa,
    Do u like stories?
    What if she is not asylum seekes?
    Can u please say a bit about morals?
    Thanks Analyysissys

  45. eyeopener

    I am not mixing up anything. You come up with your next distortion. Read a bit, just a bit better what I write. Not what you want me to say.

    I am not assuming anything of the kind. But feel free to distort again. Empty head, empty hands. Mental masturbation Elf!! Feel free.

    Elf. how come you are becoming even more si,ple than you already were.

  46. Elven archer

    “Over-presenatation can only be established when ALL data are there.”

    It’s obvious you have never done research. It’s about validity. What is the domain in which the results are valid. You can talk about British football without knowing the situation in French football as long as you limit your conclusions to the British football only and not suggest anything about the French football which represents the unknown in our little analogy. Then it’s valid. The same is true here. The study is valid in that regard. The domain is the cases known. Like I said, we can’t present anything about the unknown which by definition remains always unknown. So there’s no reason to stop discussing what we know because of the fact that there are some things which we don’t know.

  47. Elven archer

    “The question of stigmatization of foreigners is an important one.”

    I agree. So it’s very important that we don’t let rapists into our country by selecting the immigrants more carefully and that we banish the foreigners who are convicted of rape.

  48. Elven archer

    “Finns are doing the stigmatizing.”

    No, it’s the actual deeds. You can’t blame people about discussing the facts presented by the study. Blame the people who do those things which make people angry and which look bad in the statistics.

  49. Elven archer

    “You don’t seem to ghive a s——- about Finns rapists. Do you??”

    Of course I care about the matter. But because they are Finnish citizens, there’s less we can do about them. We can’t get them out of the country if they don’t want to. Obviously it’s impossible to stop them getting in. But there should not be imported rapists in here. We can reduce the number of those by selecting our immigrants more carefully. It would be a great service to our immigrant communities because the rapists tarnish the reputation of the immigrants, the reputation of those who are good and law-abiding citizens.

  50. Elven archer

    And maybe I should add that denying the problem, trying to explain it all away going even to laughable lengths for it and accusing the Finns, can also affect negatively into that reputation. You, as immigrants, should loudly condemn these acts and demand better immigration policies to prevent so many rapists coming here and tarnishing your reputation. The immigrants I know are really pissed about those individuals committing these kinds of crimes because it reflects to them negatively as a group.

  51. eyeopener

    Elf.

    Go get yourself an eduaction!! Totally irrelevant!!

    “The question of stigmatization of foreigners is an important one.” Whose quatation is this Elf. Use my words not somebody else’s. Distortion of the discussion.

    “Finns are doing the stigmatizing.” Again.

    Imported rapists?? My gosh, you are that simple!! Selcting OUR immigrants. Since when do we own immigrants Elf. Got a wack from a wind-mill?? And how are you going to select OUR immigrants Elf??

    Good that you remind yourself about the reputation of rapists. That goes for Finnish rapists too, isn’t it Elf.. Those good and law-abiding Finns getting kicked in the arse by their fellow-men rapists. Whoooaaahhh!!

    Man you are somewhere from the forest!! Stay there for a long long time.

  52. Elven archer

    “No relevance to the discussion Elf”

    Those were Mark’s words.

    “This story is really depressing for immigrants. It tells exactly how the debate is being controlled by a bunch of fascist racists.” -Mark

    It’s funny, Mr. eyeopener, that when my message to Mark was basically that there’s no relevance you confirmed it. Thank you for your support.

    “Educate yourself better in this field Elf.”

    Yes, Mr. Cultural Intelligence.

  53. Elven archer

    “Go get yourself an eduaction!! Totally irrelevant!!”

    Nice argument.

    “Whose quatation is this Elf. Use my words not somebody else’s. Distortion of the discussion.”

    It’s Mark’s, obviously. It implies the message was not for you, Mr. Intelligence, but for Mark.

    “Imported rapists?? My gosh, you are that simple!! Selcting OUR immigrants.”

    Nice arguments again. Yes, some countries really select their immigrants, like USA and Canada. Us too, but poorly which is the problem.

    “Since when do we own immigrants Elf. Got a wack from a wind-mill?? And how are you going to select OUR immigrants Elf??”

    Selecting should be done by better politics and policies.

  54. Elven archer

    “Good that you remind yourself about the reputation of rapists. That goes for Finnish rapists too, isn’t it Elf.. Those good and law-abiding Finns getting kicked in the arse by their fellow-men rapists. Whoooaaahhh!!”

    I think we don’t have to worry so much what the Finns think about the Finns. But was there a question somewhere?

    “Man you are somewhere from the forest!! Stay there for a long long time.”

    Obviously I am no match for your civilized style of conversation.

  55. eyeopener

    Ho before I forget

    Wasn’t it about generalizability of research too Elf. Problematic with your interpretation of data. But you have done a LOT LOT LOT of research did you Elf??

    About what subjects?? Surely about criminology!

    Pretender!!

  56. Elven archer

    “So, you know better than a rape researcher who has studied rape in Finland and specifically rape by foreigners, both here and elsewhere?”

    I ask you the same. The difference is that the numbers are on our side. Now you are just making argumentum ad auctoritatem.

  57. eyeopener

    Elf.

    You are correct. No match for a civilized style of conversation. A moment of intense understanding. Feels good finally you can admit it. I am happy for you.

    Well let’s see about these politics and policies. Obviously you are not going to make them neither are your “brothers-in-arms”

    Thanks for the title you give me. Mr. Cultural Intelligence. Thanks.

    Mind to come and attend a course training?? For you:. 30 sessions: Euro 4000,00. Half price for you. Reason: you are such a poor guy.

    🙂

  58. eyeopener

    Hi Elf. You have been talking with a guy who has been studying crime for 40 years, also in Finland. Rape is just one aspect of crime. You know that don’t you??

    What University Elf??

  59. eyeopener

    My University major was Internation Criminal Law, my minor Criminology. So I can say that I am familiar with the field you are addressing, Elf.

    Be so kind and reveal your credentials!!

  60. Elven archer

    “Wasn’t it about generalizability of research too Elf. Problematic with your interpretation of data. But you have done a LOT LOT LOT of research did you Elf??”

    An argument would be to say “problematic because of this and this and insert some logic here”. You didn’t make an argument and I have no idea what you are talking about, what you find problematic, so I have no need to say anything.

    “About what subjects?? Surely about criminology!”

    You don’t make any sense. Please elaborate.

    “Pretender!!”

    We simple forest folk don’t understand that kind of language.

  61. Elven archer

    “Is anyone going to bother to read my analysis?”

    Sorry but no because it’s just a guessing game. “Let’s say that.” We can’t assume. We need not to assume. We have figures from 2006 – 2009 so let’s stick to those and not guess what may be or what may be not.

    • Mark

      Elven

      And this is exactly how pricks like you respond to real arguments.

    • Mark

      Elven

      What you really man is, let’s not look at the figures too closely because i might have to change my mind. You asked, and now you have the answer you don’t want to talk about it anymore.

      You’re a fucking fraud! Immigrant hater!

  62. Elven archer

    “And this is exactly how pricks like you respond to real arguments.”

    They were not real arguments. They were your made up numbers claiming exact the same as you did with only words earlier and which I answered.

    “Let’s say that foreigner rapes are 95% date rapes”
    “by Finns, only 5% are date rapes.”
    “Let’s say that 100% of date rapes are reported”

    These numbers are not just arbitrary but also implausible. When thinking about the pathology of a rapist, it’s mainly about power, there’s no basis for those assumptions.

    The fact you insist playing this guessing game of yours instead of the real numbers reported in the paper, says a lot.

    “You’re a fucking fraud! Immigrant hater!”

    That is obviously your opinion.

  63. eyeopener

    Elf.

    What University?? what major?? Shy all of a sudden. Be a man and face.

    Otherwise Elf. Why not just go and relax in your forest and talk with the other Elves about you enlightment.

  64. Elven archer

    “What University?? what major?? Shy all of a sudden. Be a man and face.

    Otherwise Elf. Why not just go and relax in your forest and talk with the other Elves about you enlightment.”

    Argumentum ad auctoritatem. Ad hominem abusivum.

  65. Elven archer

    http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2012042515497519_uu.shtml

    Räsäsen näkemys asiaan:

    “- Tämä on asia, jota ei ole tarpeen peitellä. Uskon, että on maahanmuuttajienkin kannalta hyvä, että siihen kiinnitetään huomiota. Tällaista ei kerta kaikkiaan saa olla suomalaisessa yhteiskunnassa oli tekijänä kuka tahansa. Raiskauksiin on suhtauduttava kaikissa yhteisöissä, myös maahanmuuttajien keskuudessa, tuomitsevasti, Räsänen tähdentää.”

    Tämän blogin keskustelu kuitenkin jo otsikosta alkaen lähti aivan vainoharhaisesti sivuraiteille: ovatko luvut totta. Miksi eivät olisi? Parasta on tietenkin tukeutua sellaisiin tilastoihin, joissa on tosiaan kyse raiskauksiksi oikeudessa todistetuista ja siten mahdollisimman vertailukelpoisista tapauksista. Muuten joutuisimme turvautumaan arvailuun ja kuulopuheisiin, jolloin tietenkin sen riski kasvaisi, että jokin ryhmä saisi aiheetta huonoa julkisuutta osakseen.

  66. eihannu

    Ok here is 2011 statistics from court decisions.
    44 of 114 (39%) foreign origin/background. Coercion into sexual intercourse 8 of 40 (40%). Rape 28 of 65 (43%). Aggravated rape 3 of 14 (21%).
    Three had estonian addresses and all had russian names, three had swedish addresses and one had arabic, one russian and one finnish/swedish romany name. 3 had no addresses or SSN. Rest were living in finland and of them 7 didnt have SSN. So 6 or 9 of 44 were tourists.
    Source http://hommaforum.org/index.php/topic,68860.0.html

    • Migrant Tales

      eihannu, the figures I got was from a justice ministry source. I’ll go with them.

  67. Yossie

    Mark

    “Let’s say that foreigner rapes are 95% date rapes. (i.e. effect of cultural differences)”

    And I wonder who will be the ones making these tiny little misuderstandings… This is why I reject your utopia of fluffy multiculturalism when this is the reality: girl gets raped when cultures collide. Wonder why people think some cultures are incompatible.

    I do not wish to get people here who makes these “misunderstandings”

    • Mark

      Yossie

      That’s right you fluffy knob – ignore all the implications of that analysis in terms of the unfair stigmatization of innocent immigrants by using statistics to create distorted pictures. of crime rates. Ignore all of that and make your personal political statement about how much you hate multiculturalism, because that is just so much more fucking important, isn’t it!

      No-one said it was a ‘tiny misunderstanding’ you sarcastic prick. Is that your way of diminishing the implications of the analysis?

  68. Farang

    It took me 5 minutes to stop laughing at Mark’s analysis 😀 How can anyone be serious and do something like that???

    “Let’s say that 100% of the rapes by foreigners are reported”
    “Let’s say that only 15% of the rapes by Finns are reported”

    Both are just randomly taken figures out from the pocket and yet you continue to make conclusions based on invented figures 😀 Then you try to use that conclusion as an argument 😀 Seriously, are you insane?

    • Mark

      Farang

      First, this quote is entirely incorrect:

      “Let’s say that 100% of the rapes by foreigners are reported”

      I said let’s take date rape reporting to be 100%. I did NOT do any weighting for this higher reporting of foreigners, only categories of rape based on whether the person was known or not.

      Police Chief Kekomäki said this during his interview with HS:

      “It may be that a Finnish woman regards it as more of a crime when the perpetrator is foreign. If the rapist is a Finn, the woman might perhaps think more about her own role in what has happened”

      Anyhow, like I said, I did no weighting for this.

      The justifications for high numbers of foreigners committing date/stranger rape are based party on Norwegian statistics, you know, those ones that are trotted out regularly on Hommaforum and are usually in the high 90s%. And also this from the HS interview with Police Chief Inspector Kekomäki:

      The victims and the crime-scenes of Finnish and foreign rapists differ from one another quite demonstrably: a Finnish man is much more likely to rape someone known to him in the victim’s own home, while foreigners attack either complete strangers or a woman they have only just met, either outdoors or after an evening in a bar or restaurant.

      And as far as the higher under-reporting of rapists attacking persons known to them’, this was the conclusion:

      The police receive slightly fewer than 500 reports of rape annually, but experts have estimated that the yearly total of rapes is in the thousands, perhaps even the tens of thousands of women. The great majority of rapists are the Finnish relatives, friends, and acquaintances of Finnish victims, and crimes committed by such persons are not generally reported to the police.

      Given the high number of Finnish women who have experienced rape or unwanted sexual advances in her lifetime (40%), this claim seems reasonable. And given the controversy the very first national report on abuse of women in Finland, it is also clear that Finnish men are not prepared to admit to the problem either. Surprise surprise. Much easier to bash the foreigner!

      I was asked to show how several factors discussed by Tukinainen, who are the real experts on rape, could actually affect the mathematical distributions of rates of rape by foreigners. That point was adequately demonstrated, though of course the figures cannot be taken as absolutely correct.

      Of course you don’t want to accept any validity to this argument, even though it’s founded on the opinions of Finnish experts. Nope, you prefer to politicise rape and stigmatise foreigners.

  69. a much truer finn

    Elven,
    why the sudden change of language? Is there an invisible native finnish speaking audience you are trying to address? Are you on a holy mission, you fearsome internet activist. How adorable.

  70. Elven archer

    “Let’s say that 100% of the rapes by foreigners are reported”

    Actually if I can remember correctly he assumed that 100 % of date rapes are reported, so when combined with this “Let’s say that foreigner rapes are 95% date rapes” it follows that he assumed that “only” 95 % of the rapes by foreigners are reported 🙂

  71. Elven archer

    “Elven,
    why the sudden change of language? Is there an invisible native finnish speaking audience you are trying to address? Are you on a holy mission, you fearsome internet activist. How adorable.”

    Because the news story was in Finnish. If you can’t read it then my comments about it won’t matter that much anyways.

    And thank you for your kind words. You are obviously a better person than I.

  72. Toni

    Somehow it seems all foreigners are better persons than Finns, if you ask MT and his friends.
    Eyeopener thinks we are monekeys. Mark is nice.

    They ask for diversity and tolerance, but they won’t tolerate some Finns and diversity with them is just out of the question… Give me this, give me that, everything is free!

  73. Elven archer

    “Given the high number of Finnish women who have experienced rape or unwanted sexual advances in her lifetime (40%)”

    Öhöhöhö. You can’t be serious with that number? Or to put it other way, there’s a heck of a difference with someone raping you or giving you bad pickup lines in a bar.

  74. Mark

    Elven

    They were not real arguments. They were your made up numbers claiming exact the same as you did with only words earlier and which I answered.

    “Let’s say that foreigner rapes are 95% date rapes”
    “by Finns, only 5% are date rapes.”
    “Let’s say that 100% of date rapes are reported”

    These numbers are not just arbitrary but also implausible. When thinking about the pathology of a rapist, it’s mainly about power, there’s no basis for those assumptions.

    These are arguments based on the observations of experts, within the police service and rape experts in Finland. Of course, you don’t want to give them any validity.

    I’ve given more information above for why they are reasonable assumptions to make. Further weighting for demographics and higher reporting of foreigners would affect the proportions further. Bringing down the reporting rate for date rape will diminish some of the affect of Finnish men raping too.

  75. Toni

    “a Finnish man is much more likely to rape someone known to him in the victim’s own home, while foreigners attack either complete strangers or a woman they have only just met”

    This is funny argument because a foreigner (from a culture where women have no rights) is much more likely to abuse/rape a women close to them…

    • Migrant Tales

      Below is something that Pekka Siikala wrote on his Uusi Suomi blog about rape cases and pedophilia:

      Rasismiin yhdistyy usein sovinismi, naisviha. Seuraava lainaus on sekin blogini kommenteista.

      “Suomessa naiset aloittavat seksielämän sangen varhain 13-17v ja kerryttävä elämänsä aikana sen 10-30 seksipartneria eli turha siitä on miehiä syyttää. Henkilökohtaisesti eurooppalaisia naisia lähinnä ilmaisina huorina, eli minusta islamin leviäminen Eurooppaan on vain hyvä asia, koska Eurooppalaiset miehet ovat kristinuskon ja kulttuurinsa pehmettämiä.”

      Tuon linkittämäni blogin kommenteista käy aika hyvin ilmi miten rasisimi Suomessa kukkii. Järjestelmällinen huolella suunniteltu lasten hyväksikäyttö on pienempi paha kuin mustan miehen suorittama raiskaus. Valkoisen miehen suorittama raiskaus ei ole yhtä paha asia kuin mustan miehen tekemä raiskaus.

      Mustat miehet eivät johda raiskaustilastoja.

      Pääasia kuitenkin näyttää monelle olevan ihonväriin perustuva luokittelu ja naisten halventaminen. Ne ovat niin tärkeitä asioita että lasten seksuaalinen hyväksikäyttö on monille merkityksetön sivuseikka.

      Kolmetoistavuotiaat hyväksikäytetyt eivät ole hyväksikäytettyjä lapsia vaan eurooppalaisia huoria, näin väitetään, eritoten kun on epäiltävissä että hyväksikäyttäjät ova valkoihoisia suomalaisia miehiä.

      Kuka vielä kieltää suomalaisen rasisimin?

  76. Elven archer

    “And also this from the HS interview with Police Chief Inspector Kekomäki”

    There is no proof of that. It’s just guessing. It is based on what is reported (maybe, or more accurately it’s his interpretation of it). If we are discussing what is reported (like I wanted to it) that would be fine but you are trying to project that into the unknown with many unknown variables. It’s possible and even likely that some foreign women in a strange country don’t report (or even interpret something as rape because of for example what is considered as a wife’s role in a marriage) as often.

    Your calculations are absurd. You in effect claimed that 95 % of the rapes committed by foreigners are reported (100 % of date rapes are reported and 95 % are date rapes). And then you assumed that only a handful of committed by Finnish people are reported. And when I don’t accept your “analysis” based on these ridiculous premisses, you get mad at me. 😀

  77. Kefeeri

    Now I am convinced. Truth hurts

    Why do you question and twist clear numbers that are telling the truth? Mid east men have a problem, they can’t controll themselves. To get that controll in place, is another story. Also, not all of them have this problem.

    Perhaps more severe punisment would motivate to not rape. Applying Sharia law to Muslim rapist would be poetic justice.

    • Migrant Tales

      Kefeeri, I’ll tell you who has the problem: Finnish men. The grand majority of all rapes are committed by white Finnish men.

      Welcome to Migrant Tales.

  78. Toni

    “Rasismiin yhdistyy usein sovinismi, naisviha. Seuraava lainaus on sekin blogini kommenteista.”

    Funny.
    Rasismiin liittyy yleensä halu puolustaa naisia.

    MT: “Valkoisen miehen suorittama raiskaus ei ole yhtä paha asia kuin mustan miehen tekemä raiskaus.”

    Tietysti, jos sinun tyttäresi tekee rikoksen naapurin tyttärelle, niin puolustat ensisijaisesti tytärtäsi?

    MT: “Mustat miehet eivät johda raiskaustilastoja.”

    Mitkä mustat ihmiset? Eihän raiskaustilastojen kärjessä olevat irakilaiset ole mustia…

    “Kolmetoistavuotiaat hyväksikäytetyt eivät ole hyväksikäytettyjä lapsia vaan eurooppalaisia huoria, näin väitetään,”

    Näinhän ne ulkomaalaiset väittää… aika törkeää.

  79. Analyysi

    This comment fell short of our community standards and was deleted by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted.

    RL 11:10

    Yellow card

  80. Elven archer

    Actually it’s more than 95 %. If there are 100 rapes, 95 of those would be date rapes and all of them gets reported like you assumed. Then we would also have 5 rapes of the other kind and some unknown number of them is reported. So it’s between 95-100 % in your calculations.

    Then you said that 5 % would be date rapes in case of the Finnish rapists and that 15 % of non date rapes are reported. That means that if there were 100 cases, 5 would be reported as date rapes and then 14 other cases. So it’s 19 %.

    Do you think it’s fair (or of this world) to assume that 95-100 % of the rapes committed by foreigners are reported and only 19 % of the rapes committed by the Finns?

    So excuse me that I don’t find your conclusions based on those premises convincing.

    • Migrant Tales

      No convincing? The fact is that the overriding rape crimes are committed by white Finns. Moreover, look at the numbers you are using or that the Justice Ministry gave out.

      They give one reality of the situation. Even so, you can’t go around stating that this is a national crisis with a storm in a tea cup.

  81. Elven archer

    “15% is not a handful and may itself be an underestimate!”

    But your assumptions that in case of the foreigners 95 % of rapes are date rapes with a reported rate of 100 % and that only 5 % are date rapes in case of the natives. It’s ridiculous.

    Like I proved with numbers earlier your assumptions are in effect these:

    – 95 – 100 % of the rapes committed by foreigners are reported
    – 19 % of the rapes committed by the Finns are reported

    That is absurd.

  82. Mark

    Elven, Yossie and other fluff buckets!

    Your calculations are absurd. You in effect claimed that 95 % of the rapes committed by foreigners are reported (100 % of date rapes are reported and 95 % are date rapes). And then you assumed that only a handful of committed by Finnish people are reported.

    15% is not a handful and may itself be an underestimate!

    Likewise, stranger rape is reported much more, especially if it involves a foreigner.

    These are facts and they do skew the statistics. The point was to demonstrate a mathematical mechanism that shows you how it could work. But no, you want to question the assumptions and ignore the basic point, because it’s inconvenient.

    ……..

    Elven, I’ll make some adjustments to take account of your main criticism, just to show you how irrelevant it is to the bigger picture.

    I will also make some kind of adjustment for foreigners being reported more often, as this is also a valid point made by the police and researchers.

    Foreigners first:

    Let’s say that foreigner rapes are 95% date/stranger rapes. (i.e. effect of cultural differences). This corresponds with arguments made by experts and the police.

    1) Let’s say that 75% of date rapes are reported, because of their shocking nature and the involvement of a relative stranger, with few negative effects on existing social networks or established relationships. This also corresponds with the opinion of Finnish rape experts.

    If 33 (95% of 35) is only 75% of the true figure, it would give a total number for date/stranger rape of 44 rapes by foreigners

    2) Now let’s say that only 15% of rapes by someone known are reported.

    If 2 (5% of 35) rapes known to victim is only 15% of the real number, the real number of known to victim rapes by foreigners would be 13

    3) The total rapes for foreigners would be 44 + 13 = 57

    Now for Finns:

    1) If 8 (5% of 65) date/stranger rapes are only 75% of the true figure, it would give a total number for date/stranger rapes of 11 rapes by Finns

    2) If 62 (95% of 65) of known to victim rapes is only 15% of the real number, the real number of known/stranger rapes by foreigners would be 413

    3) The total rapes for Finns would be 11 + 413 = 424

    Total rapes of foreigners and Finns (reported and unreported) = 424 + 57 = 481

    However, the share of rapes would now be:

    Finns – 424 of 481 = 88%
    Foreigners – 57 of 481 = 12%

    So all in all, a drop of 25% in reporting for date/stranger rape only affects the final proportions by 2%. Like i have said, your focusing on this part of the analysis is a red herring. It has one of the least effects of all the factors.

    Likewise, if we weight for foreigners being reported more often, then the proportions change again.

    If foreigners are twice as likely to be reported for rape all other things being equal, then this would give weighted figures of:

    Foreigners – 24 of 462 = 5%

    The point of these figures is not to be 100% accurate, but rather to show how taking into account several factors DOES drastically affect the final proportions. A drop from 35% to 5% is hugely significant!

    Anyone who denies this possibility is trying to deceive! Why? Because the careless use of these statistics has real affects in the REAL WORLD for immigrants, allowing anti-immigration politicians and their supporters to stigmatize whole nationalities.

    And it does nothing to forward the discussion of rape in Finland.

  83. Elven archer

    “But no, you want to question the assumptions and ignore the basic point, because it’s inconvenient.”

    Basic point? There was this news about the statistics, clear numbers. The basic point would be in discussion about that, not in these fictive ridiculous assumptions you use as your premises.

    “Anyone who denies this possibility is trying to deceive! Why? Because the careless use of these statistics has real affects in the REAL WORLD for immigrants, allowing anti-immigration politicians and their supporters to stigmatize whole nationalities. ”

    Careless use like you inventing numbers and doing your own statistics?

    And yes, those ugly numbers have some effect. That’s why I don’t get your attitude over this. You are only making it look worse.

  84. Mark

    Elven

    Basic point? There was this news about the statistics, clear numbers.

    No, not clear numbers at all, Elven. Only a fucking moron would think that categories of rape are all the same and would be represented equally in the statistics.

  85. Elven archer

    Damage control 101. You should read a book about that. Now you are showing how to not handle bad publicity. If you want to protect the reputation of the immigrants here in this country, like I do, you should think about what I’ve said.

  86. Mark

    Elven

    Careless use like you inventing numbers and doing your own statistics?

    All the number have a basis and justification in the conclusions of Finnish experts, both police and rape experts, as detailed and linked to above.

    I know you don’t like these factors being taken into account, but merely dismissing them as ‘your own statistics’ does absolutely nothing to address the totally relevant and establish points that have been made.

    It is obvious that these factors are clearly capable of skewing the statistics to make it look like the proportion of foreign rapists is much higher and that this happens because different categories of rape are lumped together and no account is taken of the very clear and established differences in patterns of rape for Finns and foreigners.

  87. eihannu

    Enrique my statictics are based on names so you cant hide behind given citizenship. Also my statictics blow hole on “tourists” claim.
    I also want to introduce you to Marja Vuento who is police in helsinki and does investigate rapes.
    “On myös väitetty, että ulkomaalaisten osuus seksirikoksissa korostuu siksi, että on helpompi tehdä rikosilmoitus vieraasta kuin maanmiehestä. Vuento ei usko tätäkään väitettä. Hänen kokemustensa mukaan jotkut seksirikosten uhrit ovat miettineet kahdestikin tekevätkö rikosilmoitusta, koska kokevat häpeällisenä sen, että ovat näin menneet luottamaan vieraasta kulttuurista tulleeseen. ”
    http://yle.fi/vintti/yle.fi/poliisitv/raportit5cd3.html?sivu=raportti_ulkosex

  88. Mark

    eihannu

    I have made no adjustments for visiting foreigners in my calculations. Other factors probably have more of an effect, such as patterns of rape by foreigners and Finns and subsequent rape categories.

    Based on the figures you offered above, If three-nine of 44 rapes were by tourists, or suspected, then this would affect the statistics for immigrants from 7–20%. Not insignificant!

  89. justicedemon

    eihannu

    Ok here is 2011 statistics from court decisions.
    44 of 114 (39%) foreign origin/background. Coercion into sexual intercourse 8 of 40 (40%). Rape 28 of 65 (43%). Aggravated rape 3 of 14 (21%).
    Three had estonian addresses and all had russian names, three had swedish addresses and one had arabic, one russian and one finnish/swedish romany name. 3 had no addresses or SSN. Rest were living in finland and of them 7 didnt have SSN. So 6 or 9 of 44 were tourists.

    A Finnish identity number is the main indicator that someone is an immigrant for practical purposes. All immigrants by definition have such a number, so an offender cannot be an immigrant, former immigrant or former citizen without one. Temporary residents may or may not have such a number, depending on their specific circumstances. For example migrant workers and students arriving for limited periods may be issued with Finnish personal identity numbers, even though they are not immigrants. The situation of asylum seekers in relation to identity numbers is more complex, especially if they find work. It is not clear what is achieved by speculating on the basis of names.

    Did I interpret this correctly by noting that six offenders were domiciled abroad, three were of no fixed abode and had no identity number and a further seven had addresses in Finland but no identity number? This suggests that 16 of these 44 foreign offenders were not immigrants, but as noted above, names are an unreliable guide to origin.

  90. 2 cents

    This conversation thread is an interesting case study. Calculate instances of ad hominem variants used by people representing different sides of the argument. Draw conclusions. It does not serve anyone.

    This one called Mark is worried about the stigmatization of innocent foreigners. But there are other forms and ways of being stigmatized, even traumatized, than being suspected a rapist or being the victim of racist stares. One of them is being raped. I know, I was raped by a 40-year old man when I had just turned fifteen. The nationality and origin of the rapist does not really matter, but yes, he was from the Middle East, nationality unknown. But this is not important. My point is:

    It’s been almost twenty years now, but still, still: I would forever choose being stigmatized as a possible rapist (and frowned on and suspected or whatever) *a million times over* the experience I’ve had of actually being raped.

    When you are the target of racism, or misogyny, or homophobia (last two also experienced by me in depth – you can’t compare them to rape), you get to keep your physical self-identity intact. Rape is something that destroys it. It takes an eternity to stop wanting to a) take revenge and risk ending up in jail, or b) just kill yourself. It destroys you. Some people ‘get over it’ in 30 years, some never.

    So with this background, all this conversation just makes me so f***ing sad. Please look into your hearts and say, which one is the worse, ethically:

    – Actually raping someone, or

    – Reporting statistics of convicted cases of rape?

    Have you guys fuming over Aamulehti pondered for a second what being raped, the actual deed, being its victim, does for your “well-being and quality of life”? And has it crossed your mind, that a lot of the most vehement critics of those immigrant groups who, statistically speaking, are unfortunately more likely to rape than others, may actually be, or be related to, actual victims of rape? I mean victims of RAPE, for f***k’s sake not victims of ethnic stereotyping or suspicion or discrimination in the workplace?

    How about thinking of Homma etc. as places for therapy and peer support for people whose lives these crimes have touched? Places for legitimately venting anger and justified rage? Of course guys on Homma don’t say things like ‘my girlfriend was raped, I want to kill the rapist’, because they’re aware of trolls waiting fo the prey. No one ever talks about experiencing rape, especially by an immigrant. No one wants the wrath (sic) of immigrants and their defenders. This must of course add to your feeling that the rape problem doesn’t actually exist.

    Oh, and the aforementioned vehement critics also without exception demand harsher punishments for ALL rapists. They hate finnish rapists too, and want to cut their balls off, take them ‘behind the sauna’ (where in my opinion they do indeed belong), et cetera. The same guys make calculations of what it costs to rape 50 people in Finland, and find that it’s less than you get for some minor fraud crimes, and so on. These people hate rapists per se.

    You say you find these conversations depressing, Mark. Can you step out of your position for a second and imagine, how ‘depressing’ it can be for the rest of your life to have been raped? And know for the rest of life that it was done by someone who most likely comes from a culture that seems to be more tolerant of rape, someone who is likely to carry little guilt, perhaps even brag about it and blame the victim? Or to be close to one that has been raped? There’s one thing about Finns and westerners: never have I heard or seen a guy brag about having raped or gang-raped someone. It is not an item of pride. It is something that puts you on the lowest rung in prison. It is considered unacceptable behavior in Finland and in the western world mostly. Even in places like Belarus.

    The fact that worries me most about some parts and aspects of islamic and/or some tribal cultures, is that rape seems to be rather tolerated. This is a world of difference compared to Finland, where you basically have to be a psychopath to brag about rape. Some non-psychopathic finnish rapists may even feel guilt, because society condemns the deed. (Not that I really care, guilt does not undo the deed and the injury.) But if a culture accepts rape as basically just the ‘rowdy behavior of boys’, then *even the non-psycopaths* will be raised to be indifferent to women’s rights. THIS is the problem. Psychopaths are everywhere, in all cultures. But the problem is how you educate and raise and culturally indoctrinate the non-psycopaths, the majority. For me at least, this is the problem area. Not skin color. Not religion. Unless religion is behind forming these attitudes, which I suspect may sometimes be the case with islam and/or tribal cultures. Perhaps even in Russia and Eastern Europe. For me, the problem is the attitude, nothing else. Period.

    I was so happy to see in the Aamulehti comment thread one immigrant from the ME claiming that he is so ashamed for his countrymen, that he’s gathering strength to go to work tomorrow. That he apologises and is so sorry, and thinks that criminals should be deported, that they tarnish the innocents. I actually cried when I read that. Not that I want this particular guy to suffer, but it was the first apology from an immigrant for crimes done by his countrymen I’ve read. No excuses, no crap about racism having ‘forced’ these scumbags to rape. (That kind of argumentation btw does not cease to add insult to injury. I cannot describe how I feel witnessing people calling themselves feminists give immigrant rapists the benefit of the doubt, again and again and again.)

    Well, anyway. This commenter was obviously not a rapist, and should not bear the burden and blame for the crimes of his countrymen. But on an emotional level, *these* are the kinds of outbursts we need in conversation threads and the press, to help prevent the escalation of racism! Not deluded rants about ‘hatespeech being equivalent to and even worse than rape’, or what misogynist delights have you.

    I loathe racism, absolutely and completely. Racists are often also homophobic and misogynist, and the more we have of them, the even more miserable life will be for me too. And would you believe it, for almost twenty years I didn’t talk about the rape for fear of *sounding racist*. Get it? Do you think it’s healthy for an underage girl to bear the torture of rape AND the additional stigma (yes, a stigma) of possibly being interpreted racist for telling about what has happened? And remain silent for fear of suffering even more pain from people who blame the victim or belittle the crime – “because, you know, the perpetrator was obviously suffering from racism allegedly practised by all Finns, victim included?” As if rape victims didn’t have enough self-blaming to go around? For over a decade I went in circles: why didn’t I just bring myself to kill him? Stab him? Gouge out his eyes or something? Oh, must’ve been because I was a child, he was twice my size, packed me in his van and made me drink a glass of vodka, rendering me almost unconscious, and I wanted to survive, and not be killed. And my parents also had not trained me to gouge out eyes. Fortunately I am better prepared now. But still, “maybe I just got what I deserved, because I was… um… a Finn, thereby, a racist?”

    Has anyone of you guys fuming over Aamulehti considered that the endless stigmatizing of the Finnish people by accusing them of being racist could result in something like this? Do you think that throwing the racist-stigma around blindly really contributes to the construction of a happy, multicultural society? It is a stigma too, and a potent one, if you haven’t noticed. We live in a post-holocaust world, and being labeled a racist means death, at least in the workplace.

    However, it amazes me time and again, that the people we least hear about are the ones, who suffer most from the actual crimes. It’s like we don’t exist as actual beings capable of speech. Maybe it’s the western version of ‘deleting the victim and getting rid of the memory of unpleasant events’, in that rape survival is not exactly a conversation-starter at a party. I don’t know. And yet, what rape survivor would open his/her mouth in the atmosphere we live in? Given the endless pain that inconsiderate or just plain malicious people can inflict with their comments, not a chance. And that’s one reason why I’m not returning to this thread. I have enough shit to deal with in my life already. I’ll just drop this here as my very long two cents and leave. (I don’t expect you guys to heap shit on me, I expect you to have some basic human decency, but my capacity for tolerating understanding attitudes towards sex offenders is at its end.)

    And to Mark, or whoever it was: I do appreciate your activity in campaigns against sexual violence. That did not go unnoticed.

    It is totally miserable, that innocent people everywhere have to suffer from the deeds of psycopathic individuals, and/or culture clashes that result in rape and violence, and the failure of authorities to prevent either of these, or even punish the perpetrators. That goes for everyone who is innocent, regardless of nationality or ethnicity or gender. Goodnight, everyone.

    • Mark

      2 Cents

      It would be a shame if you did not return to read the responses to your post. I’m sure this will affect people, and hopefully in a positive way. I found your post was very moving to read. I am sorry for what you have experienced. I hope that the victim’s voice is not silenced in this debate.

      I have thought each time I have written about the possible impact on rape victims. I’m sorry that parts of my responses were insensitive for you.

      I don’t see the two issues of stigmatization of immigrants and the consequences for rape victims as having to compete in any way for either public sympathy or for validation. Both issues can and should be addressed. You said that rape is sometimes justified on the basis of racism received by the perpetrator – that is absolutely not an argument I would entertain for a second.

      As a childhood victim of sexual abuse by a man, who was a good friend of my mother’s, I know its long-term consequences. All rapists and abusers leave behind victims, and the consequences stretch far forward. I’ve not doubt about that.

      Stigmatization of innocent people is wrong, and the effects, while being different to the effects of rape and abuse, are nevertheless real and likewise not something you bring up or admit to in dinner conversations. It’s just something you have to put up with.

      I think that in the same way that people who haven’t experienced rape or sexual abuse do not realise the full extent of its impact, so too do people who do not suffer the impact of stigmatisation on the basis of ethnicity or religion fail to fully understand or grasp it. The point is that we should listen to ALL the victims. This is not about giving different kinds of victimhood a rating – it’s about addressing different wrongs.

      Otherwise, I applaud sincerely your post!

    • Mark

      2 Cents

      How about thinking of Homma etc. as places for therapy and peer support for people whose lives these crimes have touched?

      There are better places to get support. I can fully understand how people in Homma would welcome you with open arms. I would accept too that the sympathy you would receive is genuine. But, the way in which your experience would be used to fuel ongoing discrimination would concern me.

      I accept you do not consider yourself a racist or want to be a racist. But racism is only one of the problems that comes from immigration debates. Another is simply extreme cultural pessimism aimed at foreign cultures – in the end, that kind of thinking can lead to or encourage a Breivik or a jihadist. Do you really go to an anti-immigration forum to learn about racism? I would hope not. I would hope that you would try to gain understanding from immigrants or from those people that have spent their lives opposing or researching this kind of resentment towards others.

      I would hope that you are not blind to racism that does exist. The fact that you were so turned off by the debates here is a shame, though understandable. I don’t think a political forum is the place to discuss rape or rape victims. Unfortunately there are not that many public forums where these issues can be addressed.

      But politics can poison a subject – it polarises debates, creates ‘them and us’ situations, and makes people very reluctant to see the view of ‘the other side’. I think you too have been tainted by this politicisation, and that is a shame. You are very articulate and you write in a way that is very moving – until you get to the politics, when you start to show an insensitivety to certain groups which typically goes with this debate. We are not talking about rapists here, we are talking about innocent people whose only ‘crime’ is to be the same nationality or religion or race as a perpetrator.

      So while you ask me and others to be sensitive to the victims of rape, I take that on board completely. But I would say to you that there are other kinds of pain too, that can be with you every day of your life, and they are also wrong, and it would be nice if you were more sensitive to that.

  91. eihannu

    justicedemon names are most reliable guide of origin we have.
    and those seven could be illegall immigrants who, of course, dont want to tell where they live, i dont see reason why tourist cant tell his home address..
    From original text.
    “114 tuomittua, joista 44 ulkomaalaista/taustaista (39%). Kolmella on osoite Virossa. Kolmella on osoite Ruotsissa, yhdeltä kuitenkin puuttuu HETU, eli ei ruotsalainen. Seitsemällä osoite Suomessa mutta ei HETUa. Kolmesta ei tiedossa edes syntymäaikaa. Lopuilla osoite Suomessa ja HETU. ”

    Mark of course its not unsignifant but when we talk about proportion it doesnt remove overpresentation as claims in this thread said. It makes it smaller but doesnt remove.

    There is problem in rapes and overpresentation and something has to be done, solution isnt that one is quiet because it could stigmatize foreigners because its real problem. Being quiet doesnt solve it.

  92. justicedemon

    eihannu

    names are most reliable guide of origin we have.

    Then you don’t have a reliable guide to origin. Where are Ben Berl Zyskowicz and Hans von Rettig from? How about George Babitzin, Atik Ismail and Deniz Bavautdin?

    The home address of a tourist is irrelevant for this purpose, as by definition it will not be in Finland. Your new account suggests six offenders domiciled abroad, seven with address but no domicile in Finland and three with neither address nor domicile in Finland. That is, once again, sixteen out of not more than 44 who are not domiciled in Finland, but the figure of 44 is itself based on guesswork according to names. This means that no more than 28 (possibly fewer) of the 114 were immigrants, and this is before we examine reporting rates and other relevant factors.

  93. D4R

    Elven archer: And this is exactly how pricks like you respond to real arguments.”

    They were not real arguments. They were your made up numbers claiming exact the same as you did with only words earlier and which I answered.

    “Let’s say that foreigner rapes are 95% date rapes”
    “by Finns, only 5% are date rapes.”
    “Let’s say that 100% of date rapes are reported”

    These numbers are not just arbitrary but also implausible. When thinking about the pathology of a rapist, it’s mainly about power, there’s no basis for those assumptions.

    The fact you insist playing this guessing game of yours instead of the real numbers reported in the paper, says a lot.

    “You’re a fucking fraud! Immigrant hater!”

    That is obviously your opinion.

    It’s obvious that you don’t want to listen or to reason, you want to spread your lies even though you know it’s a lie so to push your agenda, like Mark: said your’e immigrant hater, and that’s the reason why you keep on spreading your lies over and over again.

  94. D4R

    Toni: They ask for diversity and tolerance, but they won’t tolerate some Finns and diversity with them is just out of the question… Give me this, give me that, everything is free!

    What do you mena by give me this gie me that? who’se saying so?

  95. D4R

    Alot of Finns are under hysteria, they’re like oh no immigrants are here to come and get our woman, man listen we’re not here to rape your woman lol i am a Somali immigrants and i never had to rape a woman, actually many times Finish woman approached me and i didn’t have to do a damn thing, also i live here 24years.

  96. Toni

    D4R: “What do you mena by give me this gie me that? who’se saying so?”

    Many foreigners. Iam is one example. Was it MT who wrote that because our education and health care is free, it should be free to foreigners too. But it is not free to us.

    Somehow Asian foreigners never complain. But Africans seem to complain for them…

    • Migrant Tales

      –Many foreigners. Iam is one example. Was it MT who wrote that because our education and health care is free, it should be free to foreigners too. But it is not free to us.

      Toni, now I’m really confused. Apart from being 120 years old (fought in all of the wars starting from 1918) you were also forced to work as a child? Hmmmm. I thought that was illegal in Finland.

  97. BlandaUpp

    Rape is a horrible crime. In fact it is one of the worst things that could happen to a woman.

    What I find disgusting in this debate is that the PS and their Homma forum hores are trying to use rape as a political weapon.

    They do this while their campaign manager is a convicted violent rapist himself.

    This shows me that they don’t really care about rape.

    Jussi Allah-oho was on tv yesterday sitting next to convicted violent rapist Matti Putkonen complaining about how badly the media treats them.

    Perhaps the PS should look at their own criminals before pointing the finger at others.

  98. BlandaUpp

    Toni

    “Somehow Asian foreigners never complain. But Africans seem to complain for them…”

    What a stupid and racist thing to say! You haven’t been on Migrant Tales long enough if you make such a dumb statement. In the past we’ve had Chinese and Singaporean immigrants for example who speak out about the racism and discrimination they face in our society.

    • Migrant Tales

      –“Somehow Asian foreigners never complain. But Africans seem to complain for them…”

      BlandaUpp, don’t worry about Toni. He’s views of different immigrant groups is as simplistic as that of Finns.

  99. Toni

    BledaUpp: “They do this while their campaign manager is a convicted violent rapist himself. This shows me that they don’t really care about rape.”

    I agree. That is almost funny but more like sad.

    BledaUpp: “What a stupid and racist thing to say! You haven’t been on Migrant Tales long enough if you make such a dumb statement.”

    Somehow I wonder if I stay here like 2 years my opinion won’t change. You don’t write about Asians? I mean, why is MT a place to see the light?

    BledaUpp: “”In the past we’ve had Chinese and Singaporean immigrants for example who speak out about the racism and discrimination they face in our society.”

    Link please, I’d love to read.

    Any articles of Finns telling how racistic foreigners are?
    Like this one:
    http://www.studio55.fi/oikeusjakohtuus/artikkeli.shtml/1533265/naapurit-tekivat-elamasta-painajaista-viranomainen-neuvoi-nukkumaan-paivalla-kun-on-hiljaista

  100. Toni

    >you were also forced to work as a child? Hmmmm. I thought that was illegal in Finland.

    Forced to do work to get some money… yes. My mother started working at age 9. She lived in a farm and had to go to “Navetta” every morning before school.

  101. Mark

    Toni

    I’ll ask you like I’ve been asking all of MT’s critics yesterday and today – are you concerned about the fact that innocent immigrants might be stigmatized?

    So far not one person has said they would be concerned about innocent immigrants becoming stigmatized by this debate. That is a disgrace.

  102. BlandaUpp

    Toni

    Off the top of my head: http://nemoo.wordpress.com/2012/02/06/migrant-tales-2009-being-an-immigrant-in-finland-a-letter-from-ida/

    In your linked article it talks about someone’s neighbours being loud, drunk and partying all the time. Nothing about racism. The fact that they were drunk and partying already eliminates Muslim immigrants from the equation.

    As a kid I worked as well but I don’t go around bragging about it. It’s not an achievement. My mother’s also from a farm and grew up very poor. Stop trying to be special. You’re not.

  103. Toni

    Mark: “I’ll ask you like I’ve been asking all of MT’s critics yesterday and today – are you concerned about the fact that innocent immigrants might be stigmatized? ”

    Yes I am. But not from debating about problems. Is there any other way to discuss about problems without “stigmatizing” (whatever that means) some (Finns or foreigners)?

  104. Toni

    BlendaUpp: “In your linked article it talks about someone’s neighbours being loud, drunk and partying all the time. Nothing about racism.”

    They couldn’t use that word. They were talking about Romanis. Can’t use a word racistic attacks and Romanis in the same article.

    BledaUpp: “The fact that they were drunk and partying already eliminates Muslim immigrants from the equation. ”

    ?? Many muslims get drunk.

    BledaUpp: “As a kid I worked as well but I don’t go around bragging about it.”

    I don’t brag about it. I just answered a question MT asked.

  105. Farang

    Mark is funny person, very double standarder. He is very much worried about innocent immigrants being stigmatized because of wrongdoings of few individuals, but he has no problem in grouping Finns in certain groups and then defame this whole group based on wrongdoings of certain individuals in that group.

    And what comes to others…

    It is interesting to see comments like “I am shamed to be a Finn, because Finns are this and that”, which actually means that these people generalise some wrongdoing of certain Finns to apply ALL Finns. But then in next sentence they strongly condemn if someone does SAME KIND of generalisations about immigrants. That only proves one thing: These pro-immigration persons are mentally ill.

    • Migrant Tales

      Farang, it’s the truth. I am ashamed by some Finns. I have enough common sense to understand that when we speak of a group, we have to be careful not to label all of them.

      As far as I am concerned, the situation in Finland will not get better until the present economic climate improves but, importantly, the PS go back to where they came from: to a single-digit party in parliament.

      Now think about all the money and opportunities that Finland has lost due to the image that the PS have given to the world.

      I am happy about one matter that the PS didn’t enter government. If they would have, it would have been “curtains” for Finland. Imagine the damage and the polarization of our society that they would have created.

  106. Mark

    Farang

    Mark is funny person, very double standarder. He is very much worried about innocent immigrants being stigmatized because of wrongdoings of few individuals, but he has no problem in grouping Finns in certain groups and then defame this whole group based on wrongdoings of certain individuals in that group.

    Are you for real?

    I guess I asked you too difficult a question – would you be concerned about the stigmatization of innocent immigrants in this debate about rape statistics.

    Clearly you have not been able to give an answer, and so your alternative is to slap a bit of shit on Mark. Show me where I have grouped Finns and ascribed any negative characteristic to those people based solely on the fact that they are Finns!

    What “wrongdoings of certain individuals”? You are full of crap Farang. Answer the bloody question that’s been put on the table – would you be concerned about the stigmatization of innocent immigrants in this debate about crime and rape?

    It is interesting to see comments like “I am shamed to be a Finn, because Finns are this and that”, which actually means that these people generalise some wrongdoing of certain Finns to apply ALL Finns.

    Only a retard would try to turn someone’s social conscience into a form of racism! What happens with you idiots – do you do exercises at the breakfast table in how to turn every single thing that an anti-racist says into an example of racism?! You insult people here constantly and do not respond to ordinary people’s basic concerns about this anti-immigration policy and the arguments used to defend it.

    That only proves one thing: These pro-immigration persons are mentally ill.

    It proves nothing of the sort. It does demonstrate that when it comes to criticisms from your fellow Finns about your appaling racism towards certain groups that you are quite capable of dreaming up some reverse logic that allows you to ignore their comments and even worse, to accuse them of racism!

    You PS people cannot be trusted an inch – you would throw away all sense of perspective and normality and make every critic out to be ‘mentally ill’. Sounds like fascism to me.

    So the party with a campaign chairman who is a convicted rapist is politicising rape to generate hatred against foreigners! And you do this because you know that it works! That is exactly what is wrong with populism/nationalism!! It’s disgusting. And you have no concern whatsoever for the fact that entire groups of children, adults and even old people become completely stigmatized in Finnish society, and yet you bleat on about integration! Sounds like you are doing everything possible to sabotage real integration!

  107. Mark

    Toni

    Yes I am. But not from debating about problems. Is there any other way to discuss about problems without “stigmatizing” (whatever that means) some (Finns or foreigners)?

    Thank you. Shame you had to put a BUT after it. It’s a start though. Is there another way to discuss? Yes. The first thing is to recognize that we are talking about often 10s of individuals in regard to certain crimes, when the immigrant population stands at nearly 200,000. That is the first thing, to get the debate into a proper perspective. The second thing is to recognise that statistics do not always give us an accurate picture. This should be obvious, but it isn’t, and many people will say simply ‘thems is the numbers’, and refuse to question them in any way!

    This is simply not good enough. If the government produce numbers on unemployment, everyone looks at how those numbers were produced, because everyone understands that things can easily be manipulated depending on what you choose to measure. The same is true in this debate. There are clear differences in patterns of rape between native Finns and foreigners. However, bald statistics lump all categories into one, and this creates a distorted picture. All we have to do is accept that this is possible, and that we should proceed with caution. But many people don’t want to look any deeper into these numbers. It is more convenient politically to not do so. And that is a disgrace, because that politicises rape, and in turn creates stigmatization of innocent immigrants. This cannot be made acceptable. The innocent cannot be made responsible for the crimes of the guilty. It is morally wrong.

    So, yes, there is a different way. And this way does not take anything OFF the table for discussion. Rather, it brings things onto the table that we need in order to understand what is going on. There is a debate to be had about attitudes to women, but it is extremely important that that debate is kept in a proper perspective. Everyone here is concerned about rape. I have campaigned for years against violence against women. The problem is that immigration is turned into a political football and that polarises and fixes the debate. It is so ironic that PS have said time and again that we cannot debate immigration – the opposite is true – PS do not want a proper debate, they only want to slander immigrants in order to gather up votes.

    If you are concerned about the effect of stigmatization, then talk to D4R about how he feels, because he is a direct victim, and don’t dismiss his views as being too emotionally sensitive – recognise it as a direct consequence of the type of debates and attitudes expressed in regard to immgrants and crime in Finland.

    That would be progress!

    • Migrant Tales

      –The first thing is to recognize that we are talking about often 10s of individuals in regard to certain crimes…

      Mark this is exactly the point. It is a storm in a tea cup. And as anti-immigration groups and parties like the PS spin this news they overlook an key fact: The majority of all rapes are committed by white Finns.

  108. Mark

    Toni

    If you want to know more about stigma and how it can be attached to race and ethnicity, then a good starting point is – “Stigma: Notes On The Management of Spoiled Identity” (1963, republished 1990), by Erving Goffman.

  109. Farang

    Mark, you asked a stupid question. Why should I need to worry about stigmatizing innocent immigrants, since I AM NOT stigmatizing them. If idiot does that, it is not my problem. Being afraid of what idiots might do is a damn stupid reason to stop discussion of important issues.

    I have a solution in my mind: In order to improve situation for innocent immigrants, we need tougher laws for immigrant criminals. That would give a clear signal to immigrants that they should behave or they will face serious consequences. When immigrant arrives in Finland, they should be put to intensive “training” where they are told what they can do and what they can’t. And deportion should be automatic if person commits any crime. There should be no consideration what the person would propably face if deported back to home country. It always his personal choice. If he wants to stay, he should behave.

    Now tell me, woultd you have a problem with that solution?

    • Migrant Tales

      –I have a solution in my mind: In order to improve situation for innocent immigrants, we need tougher laws for immigrant criminals.

      Incorrect. What we need is to send the PS back to where they came from. This will happen at the ballot box.

    • Mark

      Farang

      Mark, you asked a stupid question. Why should I need to worry about stigmatizing innocent immigrants, since I AM NOT stigmatizing them.

      For the same reason that you would worry about rape victims even though you are not raping them.

      Being afraid of what idiots might do is a damn stupid reason to stop discussion of important issues.

      Have you ever thought that you might be ‘one of those idiots’ or that ‘discussion’ carried out in the wrong way can create this stigmatization? Will you at least make the same effort of Rässänen and point out that it is important not to tarr all immigrants with the same brush? It IS important to think about stigmatization. It affect INNOCENT people in such a way that their entire quality of life is negatively affected. Burying your head in the sand and ignoring the issue is not what ‘politically’ minded people are supposed to do.

      I have a solution in my mind: In order to improve situation for innocent immigrants, we need tougher laws for immigrant criminals.

      So, rather than talk to the victims of stigmatization, you would rather use the opportunity to increase punishments specifically for immigrants, thus breaking the Constitutional pledge that makes all citizens equal before the law? Interesting solution, Farang, but I cannot see it convincing a lot of people.

      And deportion should be automatic if person commits any crime.

      So, caught speeding and your out?
      Mess up your tax returns and your out?
      Forget to pay the insurance on the car and your out?
      Accidentally cause a traffic accident and your out?
      Download films illegally and your out?

      Same thing applies though, if immigrants have to pay an extra penalty through administrative penalties simply for the fact of being an immigrant, it undermines their constitutional rights to equal treatment by government authorities. Also, there is no guarantee that such a ‘deterrent’ would actually be effective in preventing crime. Also, the effect of deportation might disproportionally penalise innocent members of the ‘criminal’s family. Deportation for serious crimes would seem reasonable, but for all crimes? I don’t think so.

      Also, that is not a solution to the problem of stigmatization. It is a suggested ‘solution’ to the issue of crime by immigrant, which does not appear to be any worse than crimes by Finns and in many cases less so (financial crimes); it does not look at the effect of stigmatization from the ‘crime of immigrants’ debate. They are clearly two different things, while the reduced status of immigrants because of stigmatization does nothing to make individuals feel part of Finnish society or for that matter to better respect the laws of Finnish society. Seems that ignoring the problems of stigmatization are actually making the situation worse.

  110. Toni

    Mark: “Thank you. Shame you had to put a BUT after it. ”
    Let’s add more…

    And this problem is so small and involves only few hundred people. We have much more people suffering much more about other problems.
    We have 1.000.000 people in trouble because they are cutting down financing health care, education, jobs, etc.

  111. I AM

    D4R: “What do you mena by give me this gie me that? who’se saying so?”

    Many foreigners. Iam is one example. Was it MT who wrote that because our education and health care is free, it should be free to foreigners too. But it is not free to us.

    Somehow Asian foreigners never complain. But Africans seem to complain for th

    LOL,
    Toni,
    Thank u so much, for u show me ur real face la la la al la
    I can learn alot of things a bout here on MT wow wow wow
    Many things
    Like who is my friend ?
    And who is not ?
    Who want me here and
    Who dont and many other things
    Words are my love, words are clear, i am very intelligent person, youhoooooooooo
    U dont get at it all my words and pint dear Toni, oh no. not at all,
    Because u judge me without any information about me
    Thanks again and again
    All is okay withme
    I dont need any help from no one
    I am a strong person with a free heart
    My heart is free of hate
    Thanks to GOD
    Love to the world. love to Finland and love to me, u Toni and all
    Love to the life and humans
    Love to the freedom of speech
    No one can chnage my idea, no one can chnage my character, no one
    hate is a point under my feets
    Am brave
    U cant huty me
    Dera Finns to u
    Am strong, even if u dont believe me, insult me and hate me
    Love to all

  112. justicedemon

    Farang

    And deportion should be automatic if person commits any crime.

    This is now coming from a commenter who has had comments deleted because they were contrary to section 10 of chapter 11 of the Finnish Penal Code. In other words, because they committed a criminal offence punishable by a fine or up to two years’ imprisonment.

    Perhaps you should also be sent to Mogadishu for those offences…

    Or how about reintroducing hanging and flogging? That would be popular. That would win votes. Especially if it was televised. It would also show how much more civilised we are than those, err… inferior err…

  113. D4R

    Toni: Somehow Asian foreigners never complain. But Africans seem to complain for them…

    Maybe you don’t notice and target Asians as you do in Africans. It’s hard for you to notice Asians when your attention is constantly aimed at Africans bercause they don’t please you or you got something against them, there is no excuse for some of you Finns, your racism is so obviouse.

  114. Farang

    Same request to Justicedemon as for Mark (which he was unable to answer): Show me one single comment I have made which is in contrary to any law!

  115. Toni

    D4R: “It’s hard for you to notice Asians when your attention is constantly aimed at Africans bercause they don’t please you or you got something against them, there is no excuse for some of you Finns, your racism is so obviouse.”

    I agree. I see Asians every day. I eat Asian restaurangs. Many Asians here at work too. Africans I don’t much see. Only in the streets and in shopping malls but I don’t myself hang out there much ever… So I have to agree that they are not very visible. And almost all experience about them is negative (like experience abut Romanis). And almost all experience about Asians are positive.

    I rather read stories like this:
    “Jonathas Chagas haaveili ulkomailla työskentelystä jo valmistuttaan insinööriksi Brasiliassa. Nyt hän on asunut Suomessa yli vuoden ja työskentelee pelejä tableteille valmistavassa Supercell-yrityksessä.
    Chagas oli yllättynyt, miten helppoa Suomessa on elää ulkomaalaisena.”
    http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/122022-huippuosaajia-ulkomailta-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Dsuomella-on-ongelma%E2%80%9D

    Or is this place only for sad stories?

  116. Farang

    Justicedemon:

    “Your comment on 21 April was removed on the grounds that I noted. Section 10 of chapter 11 of the Finnish Penal Code.”

    It hardly makes anything illegal if you just say it is 😀 Please elaborate, what was illegal in my comment?

    • justicedemon

      Farang

      It hardly makes anything illegal if you just say it is 😀 Please elaborate, what was illegal in my comment?

      Obviously it was ethnic agitation. That’s clear from the statute cited. Judging from the preceding discussion, my guess is that it was probably defamation of a population group.

      MT cannot wilfully provide a platform for illegal content. I suggest you consult a lawyer for advice on the legality of your comment.

  117. Toni

    >Iam: “Who want me here and”
    >Iam: “Thanks again and again”

    I am sorry I used your words, but they were so good example.

    Wanting people here and letting them come here are two different things.
    We want people who can give a contribution to Finland. In most cases, we can’t tell who is who when they arrive…

  118. Pippeli

    The statistics in the news are always exaggerated in a way. This time they used the statistics from the place where the rape statistics happened to be 34% and 66%. As you stated in one of your messages above, Mark, the real number of foreigner rapes is 10%, which still is ridiculously high, but true it’s not as high as the announced 34%.
    You see, there are roughly 180,000 immigrants in Finland of 5,400,519 citizens. So you must see that statistically, foreigners commit a lot more rapes than Finnish people.
    Other than that, you’re capable of writing some good press stuff, I enjoy reading it whatever the subject is.

  119. Toni

    “the real number of foreigner rapes is 10%”

    The real number is unknown. I can only quess how many foreign women are raped (by foreign men) but they never go to police…

  120. Mark

    Toni

    The real number is unknown, but the factors that can affect it are known. You ignore them.

    And when it comes to guessing, you just happen accidently to focus only on the rapes committed by foreigners. Ironic that your message is that Finnish men will even ‘rescue’ foreign women from foreign men. How convenient!

  121. Mark

    Pippeli

    The statistics in the news are always exaggerated in a way. This time they used the statistics from the place where the rape statistics happened to be 34% and 66%. As you stated in one of your messages above, Mark, the real number of foreigner rapes is 10%, which still is ridiculously high, but true it’s not as high as the announced 34%.

    The 10% I arrived at is speculation. But it’s also useful to remember that the starting point was the high figure of 35%, which appears in itself to be inaccurate, and also the fact that no weighting was done for a higher proportion among immigrants of the population most likely to commit rape, i.e. 19–46 year olds.

  122. Toni

    Mark: “The real number is unknown, but the factors that can affect it are known. You ignore them.”

    You mean foreign women never get raped? What did I ignore?

    Mark: “Ironic that your message is that Finnish men will even ‘rescue’ foreign women from foreign men. How convenient!”

    I didn’t understand that..

    • Mark

      Analyysi

      so Mark, you intolerate immigrants comments that are honest just because they represent the wrong truth

      I don’t attempt take anything off the discussion table, I try to put important things on it. The only think I will not tolerate is obvious abuse. Likewise, you probably realise by now that Migrant Tales has a set of community standards, which will be published in detail in due course.

  123. Mark

    Mark: “The real number is unknown, but the factors that can affect it are known. You ignore them.”

    You mean foreign women never get raped? What did I ignore?

    Stop being disengenious. You have simply repeated your earlier claim, you are not adding anything or refuting what I said by doing so.

    You ignored clearly different rape patterns between immigrant rapists and Finns. You ignored different reporting thresholds for immigrant and Finnish rapists. You ignored different patterns of non-reporting for different kinds of rape. You ignored demographic factors that can also skew statistics. In the extreme, it’s a bit like comparing two groups one of women one of men, and then asking how many pregnancies both groups had! Clearly one group is more able to have a pregnancy!

    Yes, foreign women can be raped, and the perpetrators can be Finns or foreigners. Tukinainen specifically refer to foreigners being raped by Finns. Likewise, some Finns cross to neighbouring countries to carry out crimes, against women and children. Some Finns travel to the Far East to commit crimes.

    Your choice of factors is not biased against foreigners is it?

  124. Toni

    eye: “Hi Toni. That explains your simplicity of mind. Thank you for your demonstation”

    You just love to brag… throw stones and laugh.

  125. Toni

    Mark: “You ignored clearly different rape patterns between immigrant rapists and Finns.”

    Both do date rapes, both do domestic rapes, both do bush rapes, both do gang rapes, both do child rapes. What is the difference?

    Mark: “Some Finns travel to the Far East to commit crimes.”

    And some foreigners travel here and do crimes. And because some Finns do that it is ok to let some foreigners do the same here? Is it even an obligation to let them do the same?

    Mark: “Your choice of factors is not biased against foreigners is it?”

    Word factor has so many meanings…

    • Mark

      Toni

      Both do date rapes, both do domestic rapes, both do bush rapes, both do gang rapes, both do child rapes. What is the difference?

      It is known they do them in different proportions. Perhaps you should follow the discussion a little more closely and don’t be so intellectually lazy.

      And because some Finns do that it is ok to let some foreigners do the same here? Is it even an obligation to let them do the same?

      Toni, stop twisting everything that is said to you. No-one is trying to justify crimes, either by Finns or by immigrants. It is contemptible that you would even suggest that.

      The point is that you choose to focus repeatedly on talking about immigrant crime. When Finnish crime is presented to you as a rebuff, you complain. Well, don’t play that game if it upsets you.

  126. I am

    I am sorry I used your words, but they were so good example
    No worry dear Toni : ) its okay
    But Toni, am not ur mouse in ur laboratovar but a lion.
    Who comes here and check comments and reads coments, like u and other
    should be happy, very happy
    First he or she can see an out spoken like me and others IF they are out spoken
    Secondly he or she can understand many other things that its not possible to know about them in our society clearly and maybe not at all
    So here is like information bank for all but for free
    We love all, all welcome here on MT
    I use this word because thats ur favorite word he he, nothing was for free for me here, nothing
    It can be free and very good for some, thats not my sin, what is it to me? why should i answer for others?I have only responsibility for me and my acts.No? one should treat me racist and bad because has bad memory a bout a foreigner or a group
    I have bad memory about Finn and foreigner both but i know we are different.our fingers have not same size and act.
    Toni, we foreigners are not same same
    Like Finns like other people in this big world
    peace to me, u and the beautiful world

  127. Toni

    Iam: “Toni, we foreigners are not same same”

    Last week you told many times how we all are same… I tryed to tell you we are not.

  128. Farang

    justicedemon:

    “Obviously it was ethnic agitation. That’s clear from the statute cited. Judging from the preceding discussion, my guess is that it was probably defamation of a population group.”

    Get your facts straight! That is not illegal.

  129. eyeopener

    Hello 2 cents.

    Impressive story. Even a better attitude. I think you have created a sense of peace in yourself to step forward and let these bloggers know. My respects for your “daring” decision.

    From my opinion any aggression against people -whatever nationality/ the worse word: race- is a signal of disrespect towards that person. There is no excuse for violence. It’s a token of ignorance and more often arrogance.

    I am not in the position to condemn your perpetrator.

    The issue here is whether society, its values and understandings, its people living by these values accept that every person is entitled to its own privacy (physically, psychologocally, social). It has taken Western society -based on religious principles- centuries to come to the understanding that males and females are equal. Our Constitution declares that.

    However, when looking at education at large -natural environment (family), friends, sport clubs- but also schools and work-environments still educate women as “children-of-a-lesser-God”. Why??

    I have wondered many times how it’s possible that in a self-proclaimed country for equality as Finalnd seems to be there are so many “glass-walls and glass-ceiling”?

    When you read the HS article on the explanation of rape one of the interviewees (police-man) ponders about the “question of women about their contribution to the rape”. That tells a story about “You have asked for it, girl!!”

    I have no respect for the Hommaguys who want to cut off balls of the rapists. That’s not their business. Thanks we don’t have their legal system. In Finland we still have “the rule of law”. Can I understand their feelings? NO NO NO. Are they the all-law abiding people??

    Thinking of just the top of the Homma-iceberg and reading what their representatives tell I must say that I am not convinced about their humanistic views.

    MT doesn’t throw around “racist pictures”. MT does oppose those people who based on a very narrow mind-set, without any proper evidence assault foreigners (I am one) and make them responsible for whatever goes wrong in Finland. Including the Aamulehti distortion of statistics coming from the police and Ministry of Internal Affairs.

    It is very well understood -even in the police- world- that the rape data are far more higher than they show. A large part of the so-called “dark-number” is due to the failure of Finnish women to report rapes commited by Finns. Read the HS article on this issue.

    And I fully agree with Mark that -just because of being a foreigner- stigmatization of “unrelated” people is as bad as it can be. I am not a rapist and I don’t allow anybody to stigmatize me because of me being a foreigner. You wouldn’t even recognize me as a foreigner.

    Once more, respect for telling your story.

  130. I am

    Iam: “Toni, we foreigners are not same same”

    Last week you told many times how we all are same… I tryed to tell you we are not

    Hay Toni,
    I was saying we r one and still am saying that we r one
    WE R ONE
    OUR RACE IS ONE< HUMAN RACE< thats what we r
    But our character and acts are different, our wishes, what we want to be, what we r, what we try to be like, what we dont want to be like, our minds, thoughts all are different
    our words, our talents, our culture, customs, mother tanguge, countries, cities, family, all are different, jobs, activities, A is lazy, B is active, C is sick, D is sporty, E is happy like me, F is sad dont know like who? liiiiiiike racist people, G is worry, H says take it easy, I is pretty, J is smart,
    K is intelligent, L is sweet again like me LOL, M is single, N has family, wife husband, O is a big boy like who ? who? who? again like racists, P is barve again like me LOL, Q is short maybe like u Toni h aha ha ha, R is long not like me am not long, S is success, T has hard time, U is trying alot like me again and again ( dont complain Toni LOL) V has wooden minds like whoooooooooooo? racist people again. W is lucky, X is silent, quiet, bore, Y is proud, Z is humble, and many other subjects
    So we r not same same, not us foreigners and not u Finns
    But we r all human beings with same race

  131. I am

    Hi darling 2 cents,
    I just want sending u hugs, hugs more and more
    I really want look at ur eyes 2 cents and say , can i help a bit? but i know i cant and am so sorry , my tears can feel ur pain, they made my eyes wet when i tried talk to u.
    Dear 2 cents i know i cant do any thing, just want say sorry sorry am so sorry for what happened to u.
    Human should be very careful about eachother,,i completely see u in that situation, its hurting me, am so sorry 2 cents,
    Am a human and i need to say sorry about what happened to u, i wish u were here and u could able touchmy tears, they love u, i love u 2 cents.
    I wish a beautiful life for u, i wish heal for ur big pain, ur pain is my pain darling, u r not alone, give me other hug.
    As a human am sorry, so sorry

  132. eyeopener

    Hi Elf.

    I really like your “argumentum ad auctoritatem”. Got that from Wikipedia?? Not really forest people talk, don’t you think. Yes, you are absolutely right. I claim authority as you just brag about …….”nothing to show for”.

    No guts, no balls. No evidence no nothing. Poor fellow.

    It only show your shallowness in argumentation.

  133. justicedemon

    Farang

    justicedemon:
    “Obviously it was ethnic agitation. That’s clear from the statute cited. Judging from the preceding discussion, my guess is that it was probably defamation of a population group.”

    Get your facts straight! That is not illegal.

    Oh dear. You really need to see a lawyer.

    Rikoslaki 11:10
    10 §

    Kiihottaminen kansanryhmää vastaan
    Joka asettaa yleisön saataville tai muutoin yleisön keskuuteen levittää tai pitää yleisön saatavilla tiedon, mielipiteen tai muun viestin, jossa uhataan, panetellaan tai solvataan jotakin ryhmää rodun, ihonvärin, syntyperän, kansallisen tai etnisen alkuperän, uskonnon tai vakaumuksen, seksuaalisen suuntautumisen tai vammaisuuden perusteella taikka niihin rinnastettavalla muulla perusteella, on tuomittava kiihottamisesta kansanryhmää vastaan sakkoon tai vankeuteen enintään kahdeksi vuodeksi.

  134. justicedemon

    eyeopener

    I think Elf was trying to say argumentum ad verecundiam. I understand that the pseudo dog Latin term is preferred in northern Europe.

    Illegitimi non carborundum 🙂

  135. Elven archer

    “I really like your “argumentum ad auctoritatem”. Got that from Wikipedia?? Not really forest people talk, don’t you think. Yes, you are absolutely right. I claim authority as you just brag about …….”nothing to show for”.

    No guts, no balls. No evidence no nothing. Poor fellow.

    It only show your shallowness in argumentation.”

    Nice arguments there. Again.

    • Mark

      Elven

      I love the way you are hugely insulting and cynical one minute and then trying to take the high road when you think your opponent has sufficiently stooped to your level. You add very little to this debate.

  136. eyeopener

    Hi JD. I was aware of your suggestion. But as we already know, Elfie is a Wikipedia guy who doesn’t know what to choose when difficult terms come around.

    Neither is he willing to step forward and present his credentials. Maybe his credentials are from the Police Academy. Don’t know for sure IF the Police Academy would be happy with a student like Elfie.

    Let’s wait and see IF Elfie has some “balls”

    Shall we make a bet??

  137. Elven archer

    “You add very little to this debate.”

    Yes. I didn’t make up ridiculous numbers and contribute them to the discussion. I also didn’t tell people that they are “fucking frauds” and “immigrant haters”. And I didn’t call racist generalizing a “social conscience” while calling others racists and haters when they are just talking about the numbers in the study.

  138. Elven archer

    “I love the way you are hugely insulting and cynical one minute and then trying to take the high road when you think your opponent has sufficiently stooped to your level.”

    Yes, you really do find the facts hugely insulting. I’m not the one yelling the f-word here. I’m not the one talking about monkeys. But hey, still I’m the impolite here. Of course, Mark. Everybody can see that.

  139. Elven archer

    This is my personal favorite of all the things you guys have said in here: “Go get yourself an eduaction!! Totally irrelevant!!”

    It summarizes all the “arguments” Mr. Cultural Intelligence has ever said. Those exclamation marks are an icing on the cake. This is the essence of his act. This is how he answers every time no matter what arguments he has been given. I find it highly amusing. Keep it up and create that good publicity with your good manners and clever performance and show us what the cultural enrichment is really about.

  140. eyeopener

    Hi Elfie. Still no “balls” With or without acclamation marks. You just don’t want to show your credentials.

    Poor guy you are. Attacking other people and never showing what your background is.

    You act is NOTHING.

    Come and show some “balls”

    Simple!!

  141. Elven archer

    “Elfie?? What about you “balls”. Credentials?? We guys from MT have a bet going on. 🙂 Come on.”

    Nice arguments there and very clever thinking too. This is the Internet. You do realize I can say anything I want about my expertize and you have no way to verify that? 😀

    I know the names of the Universities in here, I know their programs, I even know the insides of very many buildings and class rooms and can describe those in detail. So I can make any claims, I can select any University I want and you have no way to detect if I’m lying.

    But it’s irrelevant. It’s shows only that you don’t know even the basics of debate. Welcome to the Information Age! It’s not about who says what, but what is been said: the arguments. I have no intention to give up any personal information considering how many nutjobs there are out there…

  142. Elven archer

    “Hi Elfie. Still no “balls” With or without acclamation marks. You just don’t want to show your credentials.

    Poor guy you are. Attacking other people and never showing what your background is.

    You act is NOTHING.

    Come and show some “balls”

    Simple!!”

    Lots of words, no content. What attacking you are talking about? I find your statements rich in irony, but unfortunately self irony is not included.

  143. eyeopener

    I knew you would not do that. Because you don’t have. Like I said before: Pretender.

    That’s all I have to say. You have disqualified yourself from this discussion.

  144. Elven archer

    Is it a cultural thing? You need to construct a hierarchy to know who to listen to and what it the truth although you (well, maybe not you) could just deduct it from premises with logic?

  145. I am

    No Elfie. This is between you and me. Credentials please!!

    Oh eyeopener also a bit me,
    I bet on her balls, she ahs not any, nooo
    I guess i won
    Am i?
    Can i congrats me?
    LOL

  146. Elven archer

    “I knew you would not do that. Because you don’t have. Like I said before: Pretender.”

    Your cleverness keeps amazing me. If that was the case I could just make up a title. You know, it’s not so hard: a master, a doctor and so on. I’m not giving any background information because I’ve seen lately that there out pretty lunatic people with anger management issues out there.

    “That’s all I have to say. You have disqualified yourself from this discussion.”

    Why? I have never seen you answer a simple question: why. You make claims, but never say why is it so. That’s the difference between arguments and stupid claims.

  147. Elven archer

    “No Elfie. This is between you and me. Credentials please!!”

    Answers please. Why does it matter to you? What would you do with my background information?

  148. eyeopener

    Elfie. Yolu can come up with anything. I am very well aware of that situation.

    At least I thought you would be as academic as you want to be. It seems that you are afraid of getting into the open. People might recognize you and that might hurt you, isn’t it Elfie.

    Poor argument as you have been insulting so many people already.

    It would be excellent for the Finnish society to notice how their intelligentia think about the contributions of fellow foreigners. Especially interesting how international companies think about Finnish intellectual ebvironment.

    Excellent Elfie!! You did Finalnd a great favor to demonstrate the closed-mindedness of a part of Finland.

    🙂

  149. Elven archer

    “Elf am waiting too
    Should stay or should i goooo
    LOL”

    LOLLOLOL to you too. Can’t you make a coherent thought just once? You like to present yourself as a nice guy but still you run your mouth constantly. It’s just nobody ever understands what you are saying so nobody usually won’t bother commenting your mean comments.

    I don’t give my background information away when there’s a few people in Finland with my expertize. I don’t give it in general and I certainly don’t give it to aggressively acting people like I’m seeing in this blog. People who’s grasp of reality I don’t trust.

    “Hi Elfie. For you a question, for me knowledge”

    Long wires there? What would you do with that information? I asked you what would you do with it. Do you speak English?

  150. Elven archer

    “Elfie. Yolu can come up with anything. I am very well aware of that situation.”

    So why do you keep insisting?

    “At least I thought you would be as academic as you want to be. It seems that you are afraid of getting into the open. People might recognize you and that might hurt you, isn’t it Elfie.”

    People might hurt me. That is exactly what I’m thinking when reading how messed up and short tempered some are.

    “Poor argument as you have been insulting so many people already.”

    So you say. It’s funny though that I’m not the one in this thread to call others as “a fucking fraud” and an “immigrant hater” or saying they have no education and so on.

    “It would be excellent for the Finnish society to notice how their intelligentia think about the contributions of fellow foreigners. Especially interesting how international companies think about Finnish intellectual ebvironment.”

    How so? What are those thoughts you are referring to?

    “Excellent Elfie!! You did Finalnd a great favor to demonstrate the closed-mindedness of a part of Finland.”

    Copycatting much? I reveal you a secret. It’s not enough to say something. There has to be some basis for it, some truth behind it to be effective. That is the part you just don’t get.

  151. Elven archer

    “Credentials, Elfie?”

    Why? If you want something, you have to give something in return. Although it’s obvious this concept is rarely used in the context of immigration.

  152. eyeopener

    Yeah. Finally you got the message. YOU ARE NOT WELCOME on TM unless you bring in your credentials.

    Have we understood each other? Good. Excellent. The best ever.

  153. I am

    I don’t give my background information away when there’s a few people in Finland with my expertize. I don’t give it in general and I certainly don’t give it to aggressively acting people like I’m seeing in this blog. People who’s grasp of reality I don’t trust.

    “Hi Elfie. For you a question, for me knowledge”

    Long wires there? What would you do with that information? I asked you what would you do with it. Do you speak English?
    Wohoooooo
    Just bite Elf, u r nothing for me, nothing
    la la la la
    Bite bite bite ? R u trust yourself?
    ho ho ho
    I certainly don’t give it to aggressively acting people … So u r talking about yourself Elf?
    ha ha ha U speak English?
    No the only one in this world that can speak English is u?? really? LOL
    What do u do with English Elf? just insulting people is not a hard job
    What should to do now?
    Should stay or should i gooooooooooooo
    Whats ur background? u r a big person for yourself not for others,
    My background information?? Its nothing
    A zero

  154. Elven archer

    “Yeah. Finally you got the message. YOU ARE NOT WELCOME on TM unless you bring in your credentials.

    Have we understood each other? Good. Excellent. The best ever.”

    Oh, only doctors in here or something like that?

    You are hilarious. You can’t give a simple answer to a question, any question. You insist my credentials but you can’t even answer why, what would you do with that information. And now you think you are the bouncer. Yeah, of course I’m giving my info to a someone like you.

    BTW, how exactly should I show those credentials? Credentials mean documentary evidence. So should I email it? Should I put a link to my CV? Should I identify myself with my bank account? Of course, I’ll do that in a second. Just wait patiently in front of your screen.

  155. Elven archer

    “Wohoooooo
    Just bite Elf, u r nothing for me, nothing
    la la la la
    Bite bite bite ? R u trust yourself?
    ho ho ho
    I certainly don’t give it to aggressively acting people … So u r talking about yourself Elf?
    ha ha ha U speak English?
    No the only one in this world that can speak English is u?? really? LOL
    What do u do with English Elf? just insulting people is not a hard job
    What should to do now?
    Should stay or should i gooooooooooooo
    Whats ur background? u r a big person for yourself not for others,
    My background information?? Its nothing
    A zero”

    Nice. Your act is so convincing that I’m thinking about to stop criticizing the immigration politics now.

  156. I am

    second. Just wait patiently in front of your screen

    U too Elf wait in front fo ur screen for welcome
    Hay but u have other psibility , u can change ur name , just that, so easy then u can come back here with a new name, like BITER
    Should Elf stay or should Elf gooo
    U can comeback here with a big bag full of salt, spray it on hearts and feel happy
    welcome to MT BITTER love

  157. eyeopener

    Elf. Whatever I am in your opinion doesn’t even comes close what I hold of you.

    For your surprise: I have far more respect for Breivik (in all his misery and what he did to innocent persons) than I have for you. He dared to show his ugly face. You don’t have even that.

    Before you draw conclusions. Breivik for me is a murderer. But the court has to convict him for that or put him into a asylum. The court case makes what he is irrespective of what I think. I live by the “rule of law”.

    I have told you what my credentials are. You didn’t. That fact tells me enough about what you are and what you want to pursue.

    Well Elfie. What’s the link to your CV. Awaiting.

  158. Elven archer

    “Well Elfie. What’s the link to your CV. Awaiting.”

    Just wait patiently in front of your screen. Any minute now.

  159. eyeopener

    Waiting a long time already!! Just want to have to link. Don’t send your documents. Just the link.

    I love links 🙂

  160. I am

    Waiting a long time already!! Just want to have to link. Don’t send your documents. Just the link.

    I love links
    LOL
    She should create a link

    • Migrant Tales

      –“An inability to understand sarcasm may be an early warning sign of brain disease.”

      You mean our inability to understand Eronen’s so-called sarcasm? I don’t even think it was sarcasm. There was a little in it but the main purpose was to test new waters blindfolded. The blindfold was her ignorance and far-right thinking.

    • Migrant Tales

      What do you think about what Eronen wrote at the end of her blog entry:

      HUOM! Turun Sanomat ja Karjalainen EIVÄT SAA edelleenkään käyttää blogitekstiäni uutisoinnissaan. Mikäli tästä kiellosta huolimatta he käyttävät tekstiä, siitä rapsahtaa 100000 euron valvontamaksu. Käyttämällä tekstiä hyväksytte ehdot.

      This statement by her is a joke and shows how little she knows about how the media works. Eronen like James Hirvisaari have very little respect for the media like they have for immigrants and visible minorities.

  161. Elven archer

    “This statement by her is a joke”

    You got it right this far. It is literally a joke.

    “You mean our inability to understand Eronen’s so-called sarcasm?”

    You tell me? Or maybe it had something to do with those people waiting me to post a link to my cv?

  162. eyeopener

    Hi Elfie.

    Your avoidance to come up with your credentials places you in the “fraud section of science”. But you already knew that.

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/The-Science-of-Sarcasm-Yeah-Right.html?c=y&page=1 Really a joke and a distraction of the facts again. Nice try no results.

    You made a promise: no delivery. A liar as well. No surprise to me.

    You are just ONE HELL OF A FAKE.

    Monkey business for you too. HommaZoo is your place. Maybe Eronen come and feed you peanuts.

  163. Toni

    “This statement by her is a joke and shows how little she knows about how the media works”

    It is a test. Not a joke.
    This is my bet.

    Similar texts have been on other sites and they have had an effect.. 😉

    Same text is used: HP, Appple, Samsung, Nokia, etc. I just have to wonder why do you think this is a joke?????
    Why do you think this is a joke??? It shows how little you know… 😉

  164. Elven archer

    “Your avoidance to come up with your credentials places you in the “fraud section of science”. But you already knew that.”

    Oh, I didn’t know we were making scientific publications here.

    “You made a promise: no delivery. A liar as well. No surprise to me.”

    I’m ordering a sarcasm detector from Professor Frink as a gift to you.

    “You are just ONE HELL OF A FAKE.”

    Show me even a one thing where I have lied.

    “Monkey business for you too. HommaZoo is your place. Maybe Eronen come and feed you peanuts.”

    Okay, Mr. Cultural Intelligence.

  165. Sasu

    Hieno tappelu. Ette ole edenneet yhtään mihinkään. Mark ja te muut ette kyllä tule saamaan oikestolaisia uskomaan.

    Itse uskon raiskauissen olevan ongelma. Ihan sama kuka on tekiä. Meidän on tiukennettava raiskauslakia tai kiristää valvontaa. Kumpikin niistä ovat ongelmallisia ja kalliita. Mutta hirveesti muuta ei voi tehdä.

    • Mark

      Sasu

      Mark ja te muut ette kyllä tule saamaan oikestolaisia uskomaan.

      That is hardly the reason for getting in a ‘fight’ about these issues. The issue is to stand up for the rights of innocent people, not to take sides with rapists, which as an absurd and ridiculous slur on anyone who finds racism offensive and chooses to say so. You consider it a fight. Well it is a fight – a fight for rights and political clarity. I hope you are on board.

  166. Elven archer

    “Hieno tappelu. Ette ole edenneet yhtään mihinkään. Mark ja te muut ette kyllä tule saamaan oikestolaisia uskomaan.”

    Oikeistolaisia? Missä?

    “Itse uskon raiskauissen olevan ongelma. Ihan sama kuka on tekiä. Meidän on tiukennettava raiskauslakia tai kiristää valvontaa.”

    Mukava kuulla, että joku sentään keskittyy itse asiaan, eikä noiden eräiden sankareiden tapaan kiistä koko ongelman olemassaoloa.

  167. Toni

    You just keep bragging how a better person you think you are and how Finns are just monkeys.
    No wonder we have racism if many foreigners are like you…

    • Migrant Tales

      –You just keep bragging how a better person you think you are and how Finns are just monkeys.

      This may be your wish to justify your loathing but you know perfectly well that it isn’t true. We refer to some as opposed to all Finns.

      If we’d state or claim all Finns we’d be in the same league as the Islamophists and worst racists in Finland. Labeling is dangerous business. When you speak of groups you will always run into problems if you generalize.

      Do we think that there is racism in Finland. Certainly. Do we think that all Finns are racists. Certainly not. There are exemplary people in Finland. One of them is equal in strength to 10,000 racists.

  168. Toni

    MT: “This may be your wish to justify your loathing but you know perfectly well that it isn’t true.”

    You don’t much care what is the truth when you stigmatize PS and Homma people.
    And when I tell you that, you just say you see it clearly and call me stupid.

    • Migrant Tales

      We “stigmitize” the PS and Hommaforum? Unfortunately the PS doesn’t have enough sense to condemn racism among its ranks. It has used anti-immigration sentiment in Finland to capitalize politically as it did in the last election.

      With respect to Hommaforum…Why that’s an offshoot of Halla-aho’s Scripta. It is a forum to victimize immigrants. You won’t get much sympathy from us as long as these two places continues to poison the air in Finland.

      Both are wild cards that will have a violent death. One at the polls and the other because of lack of interest.

  169. Toni

    MT: “It has used anti-immigration sentiment in Finland to capitalize politically as it did in the last election.”

    And some used immigration as a positive thing. So, what is wrong using it? Some oppose “Kuntien yhdistäminen”, some oppose giving our money and property free (or selling it) to foreigners.

    MT: “Why that’s an offshoot of Halla-aho’s Scripta.”

    Perhaps because about 50.000 Finns are concerned and some of them wanted to discuss about immigration in a forum where they can do that. If you can’t have normal discussion in other forums, so why not to start up a new one??

    MT: “It is a forum to victimize immigrants.”

    No. That is just your imagination.
    It is a place where they mainly discuss about problems they see immigration creates. But they discuss there a lot of other stuff too.

    Why did you create this site? Whose offshoot this place is?
    Clearly this is a forum to victimize Finns like somebody already explaned. You do the same as Homma? You won’t get much sympathy from us as long as these places continues to poison the air in Finland.

    You see the similarity?

  170. I am

    No wonder we have racism if many foreigners are like you

    Hay Toni,
    Saying the fact cant make people racist, remember that
    He is stand for human rights, dont call him racist, stop ur racist word against him
    STOP IT
    U cant calll a brave man like that
    I have respect for these kinds of people

  171. Toni

    Iam: “Saying the fact cant make people racist, remember that”

    How about saying something what you think is a fact? There are a lot of facts about Muslims that some tell aren’t facts but some tell they are facts.
    That’s all I want to write, about facts. Some people, like MT, don’t like wrong kind of facts. Then he writes some things as facts that aren’t facts.

    Iam: “He is stand for human rights,”

    How about our human rights? Can’t we defend our families from people treathen to kill us?
    How about our education and freedom? Why can’t we defend them?

  172. I am

    Iam: “He is stand for human rights,”

    How about our human rights? Can’t we defend our families from people treathen to kill us?
    How about our education and freedom? Why can’t we defend them?
    Toni,
    Nothing is wrong with ur human right, u r Finn, Law in Finland is ur supporter, dont be worry Toni.
    ur family is our family, we love them.
    ur freedom? u r free dear Toni, we love u.
    Nothing is against u Toni, no/one
    MT is for all of us, u and me
    : )

  173. justicedemon

    Analyysi

    You were yellow-carded above for a comment that could not be hosted here. RL 11:10 is defamation of a population group. My guess is that the mods put you on a watch list.

  174. I am

    Iam: “Nothing is against u Toni, no/one”

    Sorry, but you are wrong.
    Sorry but i am right, no/one is against u again and again, no/one. Dont think negative, dont sleep with negative minds, we r one big family in Finland.
    People debate about important things here, everybody has right to say about true and the fact, Finn and foreigner both.
    Any way the fact is winner even if million peopel talk against it.
    So who is against you?
    For sure thats not u Toni? am i right?
    ha ha ha

  175. Toni

    Mietitään tilannetta urheiluseuran kannalta.

    Urheiluseura haluaa mainostaa toimintaansa muualle, saadakseen lisää harrastajia (=suomi mainostaa itseään ulkomaille saadakseen lisää maahanmuuttajia)
    Miten se tekee sen? Ovatko kaikki seuran jäsenet samanarvoisia?

    A:
    1) Mainostaako se juuri seuraan liittyneitä, jotka ei vielä osaa mitään?
    2) Näyttääkö se menestyneitä pelaajia, jotka osaa hyvin?
    -Ovatko kaikki siis tasa-arvoisia?

    B:
    1) Mainostaako se kuinka hankalaa harrastaminen uusille aluksi on?
    2) Mainostaako se kuinka hyviä pelaajia se on kasvattanut?
    – Kerooko se totuuden?

    C:
    1) Saavatko uudet harrastajat heti samat edut kuin muut?
    2) Laskutetaanko uusia enemmän, jotta menestyjiä voidaan tukea paremnmin?
    – Keitä suositaan?

    D:
    1) Mainostaako se, että 99% pelaajista ei koskaan tule menestymään?
    2) Mainostaako se, kuinka useat pelaajat tulevat menestymään?
    – Millainen mielikuva halutaan esittää?

    E:
    1) Mainostaako se, että kohtelu ei ole tasapuolista?
    2) Mainostaako se, että kaikilla on mahdollisuus menestyä?
    -Millaisia halutaan?

    MT:n linja on valita kaikista vaihtoehto 1. Kaikki urheiluseurat (ja valtiot) valitsee vaihtoehdon 2.

  176. justicedemon

    Toni

    Your sports club has adopted the strategy of a famous international corporation in relation to infant formula. The product is advertised with pictures of happy smiling babies, not babies dying from diarrhoea or pneumonia. Warnings are included to comply with local legal requirements, but we always check to make sure that the print size is no larger than the legal minimum, and so on.

    Who do you think should be educating the world about the full range of experiences of immigrants in Finland, and not merely behaving like a profit-motivated corporation that views people as nothing more than units of labour?

  177. Toni

    jd: “Who do you think should be educating the world about the full range of experiences of immigrants in Finland”

    Who? Outside oservers. Not immigrants, not natives but observers.

    It would be educating. I just don’t see it beeing much different than others in Finland. We have many homeless, many unemplyed, many sick, etc. It is ok to bring up bad experience, but starting to blame the Finns basing it on lies is not accepted. It is ok to blame the government, parties, ministers, etc. That is what we do.

    The attitude here is what I don’t much like. You label people so easily, you provoke people a lot and you are acting so arrogant. But that’s your way.

    I personally think: First treat others as you would like them to treat you, but if they treat you bad, stop inviting them to your home.
    You think others should be always be treated nice, except Finns. Them you call monkeys and pricks and many other bad words. People, who use bad names labeling others, I don’t invite to my home. No matter what is their skin color or religion.