Are you a target of racism in Finland?

wow, reading through these comments has been an experiense.

Are you sure it is not you who has problem tolerating us? I mean, as far as I have gotten to know my countrymen, we do mostly tolerate in huge quantities and often in my opinion, we tolerate bit too much and give in too easy.

Now that you live in this country, do you tolerate the original people or you would you accept us only if we were similar in nature and culture as people familiar to you? If we talk about living in Finland, which one should adapt? I suppose there is work for both but can you really say that Finns, the people who are always so worried of what others think of us, would not try to get along?

I know there are also some very, very narrow-minded people here, we do have our lower class of intellect. We have crooks and we have people who have never been outside their hometown. So does your country propably. But reading these comments made me think that who is it here that is making unreasonable generalizations and putting everyone in the same group?

Oh, and yes I have to admit that this Finnish way of drinking in too much is very embarrassing for us.

For that guy who was asked questions by the police: so have I. I look just like everyone else here. That is not racism, that is life. Police made a mistake. I have also been taken into their car for similar mistake. (when I was younger, quite a number of times in fact…) No big deal. If you qualify everything unpleasant as “racism”, you will find a lot of racism. Racism is when someone is being treated unfairly or threatened because of ethnic origin. That does not mean that any crappy thing that happens to you is racism.

But hey, if you don’t get the job you wanted, or if you meet an unpleasant person or police stops you or you get a parking-ticket it has to be racism!

Where else in the world can you move to and get along about everywhere without knowing a word of local language? My experience has been that most often you are getting second class treatment if you don’t know the language. Try living in Paris and decide not to learn French language…. Here they’ll try to speak English to you if you don’t speak our language.

We are propably not similar kind of people as in your original country. You may have known to expect that when you moved to a foreign country?

Finns take their time to warm up for new people. When we speak in a tone that may sound boring to you, it does not mean that we hate you. If we just shake hands and not hug, it is the way that at least finnish men greet each other. It does not mean that you are not welcome. The fact that we don’t verbalise and act out all of our feelings does not mean that we dont have them. We are just kind of like slightly shy and slightly melancholic compared to many other nations. We also keep little more physical distance when having a conversation than many people from southern countries do. We usually wait for invitation before going to other people’s houses, so if your neighbour has not yet come to ring your doorbell… we’ll don’t hold your breath waiting for it. They might still like to get to know you.

I remember one Russian woman in a newspaper telling that every time she hears Finns speak, she is afraid cause she thinks that they are angry and aggressive. Well, we do speak very differently from Russians and if she judges this as aggression, then what can be done? I hope some day she understands that if our speaking is different, it does not mean that we are angry.

Are you sure that some of this racism does not come from misunderstandings? (Not claiming that there isn’t racism, but just asking sincerely….)

And Mr Watson, Finnish children are not taught to be racist. That and many other comments on this chain would qualify as racism.

Maby you guys give us a chance some day? I think I can say that most of us will welcome here anyone who is ready to respect our way of life and participate in Finnish society in a constructive way.

And to those of you who truly hate Finland and Finns, as many stated… why the hell are you here???? I assume no-one has ever been taken here by force and kept in! It is not good for you to live in a place that you hate and it is not good for us to have among us people who hate us! Go somewhere else and be happy!

hmmm…. check this out. what a difference.

http://www.gringoes.com/articles.asp?ID_Noticia=2128

With the exception of point number 10, I find it difficult to see how experiencing these things means that one is experiencing racism. My neighbour is self-employed and he’s Finnish. There are unemployed Finnish people as well. The Police can be arses to everyone, they don’t have to be considering your race to be rude. I was once on the receiving end of a particularly rude traffic policeman near Salo. Now, of course there is racism in Finland. But I just think your numbered points are very misleading.

This government has arguably done more to make life easier for immigrants than any previous one. It needs to do more. Much more. There are however signs it will do more. Migration minister Astrid Thors is being very active in this area and I am assuming you have seen the recent recommendations from Ole Norrback. Thors is trying to change the culture at the renamed Migration Authority for example. No easy task. Things will not happen over night. But remember, as a society we are far nearer to the start of our journey towards a more multicultural society than many other countries. It’s only very recently that we’re had foreigners in any visible numbers in our country. I’m sure if you looked at the history of other countries at the same stage as us in this respect, you would sadly find racism was prelevant there also. It takes time – some people are always scared of the unknown which is probably the primary source of racism. I am not at all attempting to excuse it.

I must also say, as a Finnish person, that some of the remarks left as comments to this post also display racism towards Finns which is rather hypercritical. Surely all racism is bad. I do think some of these cases of reported racism are more likely cultural misunderstandings. If you come from a more talkative naturally social society, you may find cause to believe that random strangers not suddenly being all chatty with you means that they are avoiding you because of your race. Likelihood is that they would be as equally unchatty with a fellow Finn.

Unfortunately if immigrants become overly negative and take this to the extreme that they themselves become racist towards Finnish people, then this will be counter-productive, as it will just feed the flames of the real racists amongst the population. It’s important to debate these matters moderately.

“My feelings, in summary was that, the average Finn, no matter how educated, less educated, enlightened, less enlightened he/she is, knows deeply from his heart that he/she is smarter/better than a foreigner-no matter where the foreigner comes from (europe, africa, asia, america).”

Well what should they then feel – that they are *inferior* ? Are they supposed to welcome foreign masters who come to deliver them from the darkness of stone age and teach them wonderful things of civilization?

Maybe the thing is that the locals put everyone on the same level. And if you don’t know things, understand the language and miss all the cultural subtleties… well, are you not then in a disadvantaged position?

“I don’t believe you make a valid point by stating that these people don’t know anything about Finland. They all express their experiences which were made through their knowledge of the country. In my opinion, Finland is a great country but there is one problem: racism.”

Yes, the problem surely isn’t the foreigners that base their racist opinions on Finland due to their their lack of knowledge of Finnish culture.

“What about if I tell you that in Spain there are many Latin American who speak Spanish are their mother tongues and know the Spanish culture and are still discriminated. It’s not only a language issue.”

What about it? This is Finland and not Spain. If there were foreigners without a language problem being discriminated against then you would have something to compare with.

“Why can’t people express their opinions if they live in a country?”

Usually if you go to some other peoples home you don’t start giving them opinions on how they are conducting their house. You don’t step inside with your shoes on. Or you may do so, but then you see nobody else is wearing their shoes, and maybe you start thinking. What you are saying here not only should we let someone into my home with their shoes on, but they have a right to do so? And I am a racist if i don’t invite him over another time? Yes, really it is more you people that have a problem with your own stupidity than racism if that is how you think things ought to be done.

Finland has allowed – among the first nations in Europe a freedom of worship for moslems and jews, universal suffrage, and in the latest times – in how many countries do you get your kids a right to be taught in their mother tongue? In Finland you are allowed to have your own religion and culture and political opinion and whatnot without disturbing others in the society. And “racism” is the “biggest problem” in Finland? Really, I think the only problem is Finns don’t put foreigners on a pedestal and worship them as Gods.

And if you are wondering why there isn’t much if any immigrant origin people in the politics. how about educating yourself on Finnish history, looking at the statistics of immigration, calculating the populatiuon at any given time, and then wondering why someone stating “but the average racist finnish voter will rather vote for his dog rather than vote for a foriegner.” is definitely likely to get some offending remarks about his stupidity. So yes, it is definitely the racism of the Finns that is the problem? Really? Yes, we are racists if it comes to accepting stupidity.

“Am I defending racism on either side?”

Well yes you are because it is the Finns and Finland that has the problem and nobody else.

“Even if they learned Finnish some other excuse would be made up”

Actually the language thing is more based on the fact that the employer doesn’t have the time to teach “everything that everybody knows” to a foreigner, as a Finn “knows” certain things but a foreigner probably “knows” these things differently. Usually if a person knows Finnish they have been in the country long enough to have the Finnish “know”. The core issue is to avoid conflict. Like some Finn then says to the new employee something its immediately the foreigner screaming racism and the Finn accusing the one of being too dumb to do work. This is however true in the more prole jobs. In higher niche jobs the Finnish or the knowledge come secondary. What should be done by the government is to employ some sort of “godfathers” who know both sides “know” and can work for boths sides as a trusted person so that the chance of conflict is taken away. Very simple thing, but it has to be some sort of government involvement as only the very large companies have this kind of systems running.

“The way cultural differences are undermined is by learning about the other culture”
How about learning the Finnish culture first – theres millions of different cultures in the World, how much time does a Finn need to spend learning every single foreigners culture? And whose culture should I for example learn first?

See now there is the problem, every foreigner thinks *they* are the first one, but they are in Finland. So unfortunately it is the Finns who decide what is right, what is wrong, what are the standards, what are the laws. Like Swedes do in Sweden, Canadians in Canada and so forth. or is there something wrong with the right of self-determination?

No, I am not saying there isn’t problems with people being racists, and there being discrimination. However like above Mikko says “don’t call us racist if its the crazy ass culture you do not understand”. Recently it has become some sort of “Boy yelling wolf” thing – if a Finn wearing sandals is told “wrong shoes, come tomorrow” in a disco door the finn curses and continues. A foreigner immediately starts yelling “racism” even its the same cluelessness that makes him go to a suit&tie place dressed in sandals.

So the only “problem” I have here is that everything is called “racism” when it is not.

And yeah, one favorite example of mine. A guy sends 100 applications and gets no answers. How about fact: Finnish companies are crap in answering. Which isn’t nice, but what can one do? Finn gives a “thats Finland” and a shrug, but the foreigner starts screaming “racism”. Can you imagine how damn irritating that comes after a while?

Hi guys,

I am considering to work in Finland for three years. The company is waiting for my answer should I want to go or not. If I go, I will bring my wife (who covers her head) and my kid. Should I be worried ???

I appreciate any kind of feedback

From my name I guess you can tell what religion I embraced

Regards
Ahmad

Enrique,

I am a Malaysian actually. I would love to think that Finnish are a good bunch of people. But this discussion got me worried …though I know racism is everywhere..even in my own coutry sometimes we have that too.

Anyway..I will give you folks the benefits of the doubt…

Ahmad!
Don´t go there. The culture is so different. You will have the biggest culture shock in your life.

And yes Ahmad, theres mosques, theres halal butchers, theres oriental spice stores and you can even get durian fruit from the thai market. And remember Finland was one of the first countries in Europe to give a freedom of worship to its moslem minority – we let everybody live how they want as long as they accept they live in our country according to how our society works. Same thing you go working in a business you accept the company values. And I suppose you’ll be working for the big N so theres people from all over, don’t think you’re somehow special.

Finland desa

I have worked in Nigeria, France and Switzerland. I have also spent a large part of my life living in Australia. Culture shock is not a problem really..on the contrary I embraced it. I understand each of us have different cultures and values..all I am worried about is blatant racism thats all…

De Tant Blomhat

Thanks for the assurances. I am not in any way implying that I am special. Never cross my mind…as long as I can work, my wife and kids can have some fun with me in weekends..thats all I am asking for really…Not expecting special treatment if thats what you meant..

by the way..what do mean by “I suppose you’ll be working for the big N”..??

Enrique,

Thanks for the wish…and nope..not joining Nokia..am hoping to get a new Nokia phone there though..I assume it is cheap there in Finland hehehe

Hi,

I think strip searching at Vaanta Airport is the order of the day. I came to Finland to study but on the day I arrived to Helsinki all black guys and 1 pakistani were told to wait for over 5hrs that they were verifying our Visas. Imagine all of us were taken in a police Van and strip searched in one of Vaanta under ground police quotas. I was so ashamed and humiliated I had never been treated like this before in my life. If you are a person of colour please expect this. I wrote to them and I got the same reply just like above. But can you imagine all of us 6 guys were strip searched!!!!

Now you Finns how would you feel if you visited another country and you were treated like that? The police force is bloody racist and so goes the whole Finland.

If I ever get a voice to speak for foreigners either at UN or else where I will never forget to mention this kind of treatment.

People should stop buying Nokia and Finnish products if Finns treat us like shit. If Americans treated Finns like that who went to America when Finland was facing hard times and they have helped build Finland when they came back, How would Finland have developed?

Never invite us to study with you if you want to strip search us naked without any reason.

Yeah John, just because you are ignorant doesn’t hide the fact that the Finnish newspapers are regularly full of articles of Finns being strip searched at US airports and worse. The fact remains Finland is one of the landing points to Schengen area and unfortunately you foreigners cause this for yourselves.
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Suspected+document+forgery+centre+uncovered+in+Helsinki+student+flat/1135238336262
So stop whining – I am not sorry at all this happened to you. Go look in the mirror at your own countrymen first who are cause of this prejudice against foreign students.
Besides which who are you beggar to come here to study free on my tax money to complain about anything? You can go back to scratch your ass in your own country – I did not invite you here to freeload on my tax money and complain on top. Ungrateful parasite beggar.

THEY ARE INSULTING ME IN MY OWN COUNTRY!!! If anyone has a problem with Finland its better not come here at all or then leave. Theres thousands of countries in the world where people can live in whatever kind of cultural environment they please. It pleases me to live in Finland and in a Finnish cultural environment. It is not necessary for anyone to come here and stay here if they do not like it. If they choose to come here then it is of their own free choice and it is they who choose my cultural environment. So I find it highly insulting someone comes to complain of life here – especially as we are giving thousands of foreigners from poorer countries the chance of free education – and what do we get in return? Disrespect and abuse of the system. And the abuse of the system is what is the worst part because due to the greed of the few now everyone is a suspect. And WAS IT FINNS WHO WERE DOING ANYTHING CRIMINAL? No – it was the foreigners who did something wrong and then come insult us on top. So that is my problem – you just do not see how insulting this is do you? Biting the hand that feeds you.

Stop blaming Finland of your own shortcomings.

– Again, you mention that integration is not a choice but an obligation. The examples you mention about language tests and the like have been proposed. I believe that they will be unsuccessful. The Russians tried to do it to Finland in the Russification period and look what happened. Russia’s big mistake was that it forced Finns to become more Russified. This led to a lot of strife and bloodshed.

Again, you miss the point. the Russians invaded us. We’re not invading the immigrants – its their own choice to come here. They are not brought here by violence chained in slave ships. They voluntarily board on an airplane.

And the UK is prime example of “white flight” – and the UK people move to Finland for that reason. It takes them a little while to figure out while they live in Bendoveristan where the foreigners rule, in Finland they are the foreigners and the natives still rule. Thats why they whine as they are ashamed of their country but we are not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/6631541.stm

In Finland there is only space for one kinds of towns and villages – full of “Finnish residents” and not “white ethnic Finns” and “immigrant foreigners”… its an attitude question if you want to be a Finn or not.

DeTant Blomhat : you suffer from a severe case of xenophobia – you need help.

I can not comprehend how bloggers on this site even bother to respond to a hatemonger, disrespectful, unconstructive individual like you.

Hi Enrique, you are correct indeed,

I have lived in Finland for umpteen years and I have to say that racism is wide spread. Racism in Finland manifests itself through job discrimination, social exclusion and what not.

Employers blame it on language impediment – that most foreigners don’t speak finnish. But this claim is not entirely true. I have met a lot of foreigners that have educated themselves in Finland, speak the language fluently, have an academic degree but are still unemployed. Some of them have never managed to even secure an interview just because their names are sound peculiar. Even if you get a job your chances of getting promoted is next to nill. The employer thinks that he/she is doing you a favour just because he/ hired you.

I would also like to add that all foreigners are not refugees, some of us come here to study and end up getting married and build a family here.

Unfortunately, we are here to stay because our family is here. Therefore, Things have to change in Finland and I strongly beleive it is up to us to outline our grievances bargain collectively for our rights.

I am an immigrant. Sometimes I feel so frustrated in Finland that I just wanted to ‘give it back to the society’. Hence the crime. People like me (hypothetically) acting out of frustration. If the mentality here is that no foreigners are good and only a tiny fraction of people like Juha, the social worker, understands and/or appreciates diversity it doesn’t help much because the general society isn’t open=minded. I would even call racist.

If a person like Juha comes to ask me how do I like it in Finland, I wouldn’t want to hurt his feelings. A guy who works so hard for us. What do you expect me to say? that I am so frustrated that I can leave this second to another place where I feel more comfortable?

I would reverse those numbers. 95% prejudiced and 4% nonchalant, 0.5% don’t care, 0.001% welcoming (and the rest 0.499% lost in statistics).

Good welfare system is like a double-edged sword for immigrants. We are taken care of but we are also blamed for using them. And so you have to be ever-thankful that you are here, Finland. Because you are given shelter and food, now you can take this mental abuse in the form of institutionalized racism.

Enrique: explain exactly how in this example from Denmark diversity enriches the Greenlanders culture instead of destroying it?
stiften.dk/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080705/AAS/457841073/1002
theres a translation found here
canadianimmigrationreform.blogspot.com/search/label/racism

– Well, you can sweep the problem under the rug that way if you please.

There is no “problem”.

– I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I think I will do the former.

Ask Paddy about Irish Travellers. And how much people wish them to come live next door.

Thanks man.
we’re in and putting the final touch to each and everything.
DeTant, I lived with travellers for about two years when my first daughter Dara was born. Some of the finist people you could/would ever meet, and some very dangerous bastards just like in every level of society.
I’m glad I had the experience, and not stupid to say everyone would love it; should do it, and so on. Life is a dangerous road on which you learn to be thankful for the people you have around you.

Damn Finns! I can’t be bothered to read through this enormous thread, but reading your checklist I realised that I’ve been subjected to horrible racism by Finns! Especially #1, #2, #3, #6, and #7 are or have at times been very true for me. The fact that I’m an ethnic Finn myself underscores the viciousness of the Finns: they’re racist even towards their own kind.

Hello all. I just stumbled upon this page. I am thinking of going to medical school in Finland near Helsinki in the english medical programme. I am originally from Egypt and speak english but not the native Finnish language. I also dress akin to the bedouin style with traditional headdress and robe. I was very excited to be able to study in Helsinki but now am having thoughts against it after reading this page. Medical programme itself is very tough but if I have to do it under difficult circumstances compounded with discrimination then I may not fare well. Can someone, both Finnish and non-Finnish in Finland give me his input on the matter? Best wishes from Alat.

Hello Enrique. Thank you for the links. I am unable to ask the university as that would be not a good way to establish relations at a potential place of attendance. Yes, honest comments would be welcome, especially from Finns and non Finns alike. If a bad idea then I would rather know early than attempt a big move which could be disasterous. Points to keep in mind are

A. I don’t speak anything other than English and native tongue.
B. I wear traditional middleeast dress.
C. I do not know anyone in Finland other than the correspondence persons at the school.

I would also like to add another observation:
in may places ( and I personally believe especially here where I am from ) many people who are not racist at all will still in some situations go out of their way to specifically appear “not racist”, partly because maybe they are not sure how to behave around foreigners, partly out of fear of offending someone, and also partly because maybe they have had a racist thought or something like that and they feel they can make amends in a way. While personally I think it is pretty transparent, possibly insincere, and at worst condescending, I have caught myself at times doing the same thing. (in the example of the neighbourhood kid whom I mentioned earlier, many people unlike my father would not have complained, for fear of being mispercieved as racist). Many other people though, like my father, would resent and/or dismiss such accusations and complain anyhow.
To most Finns, who are largely unfamiliar, and to an extent even distrusting of such small talks and “superficialities”, who strongly value honesty even to the point of bluntness, such a way of behaviour would seem very strange. Again I am not denying that there is racism in Finland, and I am sorry that I have not said before that many of the stories I have read here seem quite sad and dissapointing. What I am saying though, is in some situations, should one ask “Am I being treated badly (in a racist way) or am I I just not being treated “specially”? Am I being ignored truly because of the colour of my skin, or am I just being ignored?

I Love Finland and Finnish People. I am an American exchange student with Hispanic descent. I do get stared at- I guess people haven’t really seen to much of a young girsl with dark black hair and darker skin. SO WHAT? I just smile. What did you people think when you would immigrate to another country- that it would be easy? You must adapt. Discrimination can be fought- through education and positive interaction. It is unfair to say such things about the average Finn, because they are so polite. As far as the work situation, you need to look at the political structure and take a wild guess as to why it’s so hard for you to get a decent job! Forums like these are useless and only provide for bickering and stereotypes. Positive intercultural communication is the key. Really, what do you expect?

Hi:
I am an Iranian man 43, I arrived in Finland in Dec. 1994. I applied for asylum right away. I received it after 27 months.
– I received a B.Sc degree in computer engineering in May 1999.
– I received a M.Sc. in Telecommunication from Helsinki University of Technology in 2005
– I started working in a decent, official job, as a C programmer in 1997 before even I get a residence permit.
– I have worked 5 years for Nokia
– I have worked 3 years for HUT
– I applied for citizenship in 2001
– I received a negative answer in 2005. The reason was that I am a threat against Finland security and public order.
I appealed against this decision. I won the decision in administrative court. My argue was that you should provide a reason why I am threat. No body should be guilty without a reason. Finland’s security services and the migration service take the case to supreme court and threatened the supreme court and the system that they will not show any evidence because I am too dangerous to know the reason. I asked that they show their reason to Supreme court and Finnish authorities. They did not, because there is none! The court voted in their favour and ruled that SUPO (Finnish Security Service) does not have to provide any reasons! So much for an independent judiciary system!
– I lost my Job in a Finnish company after 2 weeks because of the SUPO,s decision about me. That was August 2006.
– I asked the Finnish authority including Mrs. President Halonen that show me one simple reason, why I am a threat and I live your country voluntarily. They did not!
– I moved to Sweden in 2007
– I found a job now in Sweden as an IT consultant with lot more salary in Stockholm and lot more fun
– I am happy now here. But Finland was like a nightmare for me.
So this was my experience from Finland!
Cheers

Dear Enrique:
Thank you for your sense of understanding.
My case was published in Helsinki Sanomat (without my name), the biggest paper in Finland. However it was the story said by SUPO. I contacted the Helsinki Sanomat and demanded to hear our side of story. I received no answer. Then I want personally to meet the person who wrote the article. The receptionist called the guy and the guy said that he is on holiday and wont back for some time. Coincidently in 2 minutes the receptionist saw his collogue and asked about him. The collogue said that he is back in 10 minutes and he is not in holiday. I contacted to the person’s boss and some other people in Helsinki Sanomat and mentioned the acts and laws regarding publishing such an article. According to the law, they should also publish my side of story. I never received an answer!
The followings are some links to the case in HS;
– Courts say immigration officials give too much weight to statements by Security Police http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Courts+say+immigration+officials+give+too+much+weight+to+statements+by+Security+Police/1135225456158
– Security Police threaten to stop giving statements on foreigners
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Security+Police+threaten+to+stop+giving+statements+on+foreigners/1135227258317

So, I would say that there is no independent press and judiciary system in Finland as far as concerning to the foreigners.
Cheers

finland is the most racist country in the world! i am living in this country for more then 6 years! people r so different here then any other country! i do speak finnish but not that well! even cleaning job is difficult to find here! if foreigners use a trick then they will succed here! make a big family like 6-7 kids! and just take social! its the best way in finland! 99% finns r racist believe me!

“99% finns r racist believe me!”

And you are not, making a comment like that? Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. There is no another word to describe a comment like that.

As a Finn I find this blog insulting. Racism, stereotypes and generalization against finnish people.

The whole 10 point list is ridiculous. Like someone already said those things are quite normal also for the white heterosexual Finnish male so it’s really not usually about racism but culture.

For example unemployment. You don’t have any idea how hard it is for a Finn to get a decent job with a BBA. Supermarkets are filled with cashiers with a BBA degree. So 20%? There are A LOT of refugees from the development countries with no education, no language skills, some can’t even read. How could they compete in a (too) highly competative modern economy? It’s freaking hard for a Finn, too! And we speak Finnish, which is a requiment for most of the jobs. It’s even more difficult for someone not speaking Finnish fluently. But it is seldom because of racism. It’s racist to just assume it’s always, or almost always, because of racism.

I’m not surprised about number 11: “I get attacked by comments in my blog for speaking out against racism.”. I think you “get attacked” because of your racism againsts the Finns. I feel personally insulted because of your generalizing claims. You seem to just spew hatred in a disguise. Oh, the irony!

Are you behaving that way in a “real life” too? Insulting people with generalized claims? Calling them names when their culture is different than yours, and because they don’t change their traditional ways just to humour you?

I wonder, why you have such a hard time…

Regarding the last comment before me;

In my view calling Finns racist is technically wrong and socially misleading. Finns are quite aware of their share in the world’s history and their achievement. On contrary they are quite modest aside from the times when they are addressing each other and making their history colourful. What makes Finland the way it is and very unpleasant to the most of the 3rd world countries immigrants, is the systematic, though hidden and very complex discrimination deployed by Finnish system so much that they are willing to circumvent their routines and regulations (like influencing their judiciary system from above) to restrict and eventually make the life harder for mostly the 3rd world countries immigrants. This complexity is so camouflaged which takes resources such as time, money, knowledge and courage to reveal it.

The system most useful weapon against those foreigners mostly had to migrate from critical places in the world is blocking the right to be naturalized. By taking this right from a immigrant who has lived many years in Finland, they paralyse the person to function as an ordinary person. Why and how? look at my story!
– I do not have a passport and I have never had. So no legal assistance and support provided to that person as a citizen.
– I cannot travel to so many countries. If I do and get into the trouble, there is no legal assistance from any where.
– If I get a better chance of job in some other country, taking that chance is as close as impossible because I am not an EU citizen. The employers are not willing to use any energy to convince their authorities to employ that person.
– Continuing studying will become limited. In my case they stopped me to peruse a PHD because I did not have Finnish nationality.
– The things like getting loan for buying a house some times get difficult as you need to be a Fin to raise the trust for the banks.
– The rest of your credits could also be affected by that.
– you cannot take part in major elections, though you have lived many years in that country. So your voice does not count on most important issues and your destiny.
– You cannot be a nominee for the same matter
– Being a Fin at least legally boosts your chance to get easier recruited.
– In any dispute between a Fin and immigrant, you are always guilty. Having the nationality could make the situation a bit better
-…
This list can go on and on, in one world you have less right than a dog belong to a Fin. So this is what makes Finland to most of the foreigners so unpleasant and disturbing. The true word which should be used is not racism, but the word is STATE DISCRIMINATION !!!!!!

You want to know why? Look at the fabric of power in Finland. I can see still the same people who were on the power 15 years ago. The same people but replaced from one place to other one. So the cluster of power is tried to be as closed as possible toward the people who actually have the will and knowledge and other qualities to take part in more administrative roles than being on the lower layer of the society.
So my immigrant friends, what makes you frustrated and depressed is a systematic pressure imposed by the STATE of Finland in the forms of which I mentioned some examples.

My advice to you is that don’t bring more children to this country. They will not be yours in 10 years. If you think that is smart, you better think twice. Leave this country if and when you can. Go to a place who appreciate your presence and invest on you better than Finland. To a place asking a foreigner why did you come to here is legally forbidden!

“love or leave it” its harsh advice for foreigners who just simply have nowhere to go.Most of foreigners are normal people who just want to live in peace and enjoy the country no matter what color or nationality they got, its not like foreigners try to invade over finland and push finns out, or try to wipe out finnish traditions or religion etc. People just want to be exepted by who they are, but in most cases they just have to hide themselves and appear in the way finns would exept them.

As for small kids,ye getting teased is normal everywhere in the world, but when they grow they will start questioning the reasons, so are we suppose to say ” sorry dear cant help the fact that yr from other country”?? Thats how majority of kids start being racistic etc, it is never ending circle. Its easier to mentally attack kids than adults becouse they wont fight it much.

Personally when i get insulted but finn for being from other country i usually try to ignore it and think of it as just simple missunderstanding. But tell me how to behave when i stand with my friend near Metro station waiting for parents to join us for lunch and finnish men comes to us and asks how much he needs to pay us for sex, and he came only when he heared that we didnt talk in finnish. that was really insulting public humiliation, add to that cheap looks people started to give us and loud enough whispers ” f…g whores”. Yes indeed, foreigh girls are ALWAYS appear to be sluts dont they??? Or when some one started to yell at me and calling me names when he heared me speaking foreigh language, im sorry but i think sometimes finns do cross the line.

hi, before i start i just want to thank enrique for the site.

eh, where to start, just finished reading.ok. for me, i have moved to finland and been here for a year now, i am from england i am 19 1st came over here for a holiday when i was 18 met a girl who is a finnish resident but is from russia and basically it started from there, went over to visit a few more times and then decided to quit my job and move over to finland(helsinki) and live with my girlfriend and carry on a normal life over here.

when i 1st visted everything was fine, people seemed nice, few wierd looks now and then but nothing unusual as i have heard from many people that finish people are not the most sociable so i took no notice. problems started to arrise when i moved over here and started applying for jobs.(just to add that i passed all exams that i had taken and got top results, including A levels)the sort of job i was looking for did not matter to me as i knew i didn’t speak the language very well at the time. so again in a way i knew this might be a problem. the most frustrating thing at the time was that to my applications i sent out 99% of the time i would get no reply back from the company i applied to(but this is a completely different problem).

the longer i was starting to live over here the more i noticed that the odd stare started to turn into the odd comment about me being from another country. 1 example of this is that i was on a bus going home 1 day, speaking on the phone(in english) with my girlfriend amediately after i put down the phone, a guy decides to say to me ‘foriegners, all they do is come to our country and steal our women’ at the time i think it might have been wrong by me also to reply ‘so you should try harder then’ as then it turned into something abit more than just words. i tried to report this to the police but apparently i provoced it. but the only thing that i can see that started this was the fact that i was speaking another language.and 1 thing i dont understand is that i could just b over here on holiday, they do not know this but still comments like this are said. does it then mean that finnish people expect to be treated the same when they go abroad to other countries?

another case is that 1 day in our flat we had some decoraiters come over to paint our walls. all seemed fine. then they started to realise that my girlfriend is from russia and we started to hear comments such as ‘ruski’ muttered among the 2 of them. we sent an email complaing about this to the company that they work for and got no reply.

i do not really understand but i have noticed that there is a big dislike to russian people living in finland, not exactly sure where this comes from, all i can do is guess, is it still that they have a grudge because of the cold war 50+ years ago?
its hard to tell, just i worry alot when my girlfriend goes out that she won’t get shouted at for speaking russian which has happened before.
while on this topic i have noticed that on the news it shows alot about russia and watches everything that they are doing very closely, maybe this doesnt help the subject.1 thing at the moment with this NATO finland is unsure to sign because they thought it would be a threat to russia.

but all is not bad, i have a few friends over here and they are really nice people.
if u ask me if u think finland is rascist as a nation i say no,but i do think that there is a higher percentage of racists and cases of racism than where i came from in england.
i’v had basically 3 i’d say major experiences of racism and only been living here a year, and im only 19, in ways i think if i had been older it may have been more.

so unfortunately as i have been unable to get a job, me and my girlfriend are deciding 2 move to england as for a start iv had 3 different employers call me from there even tho i wasn’t in the country trying to employ me. and im sure that it will be abit easier for my girlfriend also getting a job.
but finland as a country is a really nice place and the people(most of them) are nice and are not as hard to get along with as others might say, that is once you get to know them, but again there are a few cases of racism, higher percentage then other places i have been, i have also been in america for 6 months and portugal for 4.
sorry if i was writing too much, i got abit carried away.

I ask once more from you great wise people who say how Finland has to do this or that…

HOW will Finland make people integrate? Integration starts and ends in short space between both ears of immigrant. If immigrant does not put effort to learning language, if immigrant does not put effort and work to learning Finnish culture…

How can they be uploaded to them by Finland? Learning always starts and ends in head of person who is supposed to learn.

As for how immigrants should have right to remain as they were. Fine. But Finland and Finns have every right to expect Finnish cultural norms to be respected and obeyed by immigrants. That means, if immigrants cultural norms are in violation with Finnish. Immigrant cannot expect Finns to bend over and appease his immigrant ways. HE has to change.

If you have no ability or desire to learn to live in Finland in way that does not annoy/distance/whatever Finns (namely in way Finns expect everyone to interact, according to Finnish cultural norms)…. Leaving is not unreasonable option.

Alien: Don’t you think asking someone to describe every cultural norm is a bit unrealistic? Learning a foreign culture is a big, long and arduous task requiring one to spend many years in the country in question. Understanding (if not approving) also requires the will to learn; it is entirely possible to spend one’s whole life in a foreign country without learning anything, culture or language. In such case, it’s no wonder if one slowly starts to hate every aspect in the new country, everyday life slowly turning into hell. Good to hear you have the will to learn though (even though I slightly doubt your sincerity).

This actually doensn’t have much to do with racism, but I hope it will turn into good advice for people trying to live in a foreign country (any country, not just Finland).

Enrique:

Do you want me to post all the failures of multiculturalism? Because it is not working ANYWHERE. It causes division and conflict in society, weakening it and making it impossible to live for everyone. Integration to existing cultural society is only working solution.

Alien:

If you want to be on equal ground with natives, you have to be able to act like native. If you do not want to be source of conflict, you have to understand and accept what is considered appropriate in Finland and what is not. Your cultural norms of what is polite and what is not are not applicable in Finland. If you try to live according to your foreign norms, you are going to keep hitting your head in a wall repeatedly. Because… THIS IS NOT MIDDLE EAST! Thus stuff that works in Middle East may, and most often do not, work here.

Different country, different way for things to work. Different way to act properly. But most immigrants do not grasp it. Then they are at awe that they are treated like badly behaving barbarians, because they ARE. Because they do not grasp that what is considered appropriate way of interaction in whateverland is rude and impolite in Finland.

If you want to live and act in Finland, or any other nation for that matter, with least problems. You have to learn to adapt to cultural norms, instead of expecting everything to work like it would at home. Perhaps in some country handing little money to police or official is normal. In Finland it is considered corruption and is source of great disapproval. So if in Finland you try to bribe your way out of traffic issue, odds are you instead get arrested and get into court for attempted bribery. And at that point you are at loss because you did not get your head around fact that different country comes with different rules of conduct.

Every country which is not divided and ready to tear itself apart (like multicultural heavens of Iraq, Somalia, USA and so forth) there is single set of rules, cultural norms, which set up rules for everyday life and interaction. Only idiot expects natives to respect and appease his foreigner ass by bending over and trying to follow his foreign, and quite likely completely unknown, cultural norms.

There are hundreds of cultures and cultural norms in the world. Only imbecile presumes that putting them together and expecting them to get along would work. There will always be rules which are not compatible with one another. So it is very unreasonable to expect natives to learn all these hundreds of sets of norms to appease whatever culture foreigner might be coming from. It is far more simple and effective if foreigners learn culture and norms of country they move into, and thus learn to act in way which does not insult natives. And which gives everyone in that country same contact surface for interaction. There is less conflict because everyone knows that doing A is polite and doing B is not polite. Instead of applying foreign cultural norms which say things are opposite, and then again wonder why people treat them like trash. (hint, because they act like one!)

There is racism of course, but much of what is considered rudeness or racism is simply failure of immigrant to learn local rules of proper and improper conduct. Interpreting disapproval of his/her bad behavior as racism.

Hi,

I moved to Finnland about 2 years ago. I am from Australia and my wife is Finnish. Most people a very nice to me and i have a group of good Finnish friends. My friends have told me that other Finns do not approve of them hanging out me because they feel that they prefer my company to theirs for reasons i don’t understand.

Anyway i have always had a job even though i can only peak very basic Finnish and have even moved up the ladder slowly over the past 2 years. Having said that i still get little to no respect from most people i work with. Im a Chef and i have been well trained in Both Australia and Europe and i am not bragging but i am clearly more skilled and have greater knowledge of food then 99% of Finns but yet no-one wants to learn from me or take any addvise even the young students. Again for reasons i don’t understand. My contract ran out at my last job and even though i know legally they had to offer me a new contract i was not given one. Its a long storry but a student with no skills and far less experinced than me was given the job and i am now unemployed. The only reason i was given for this was IM NOT FINNISH! I couldn’t believe it! I have heard opennly racsit coments before and i just take it with a grain of salt and give it back. But this bothers me. Not only is it a stupid decission but they are telling me that they don’t want foreign scum like me working for their company.

For the last few weeks i have been applying for countless jobs but i havn’t even got a single response. Mostly i think because of my poor Finnish skills. I will keep at it.

I have also been told why don’t i just go back to Australia. I always reply when every Finn leaves my country and never visits again then i will leave. But they feel they should be able to travel anywhere they want just don’t come to my homeland. Im sorry that is a very small group of people i have meet.

I just have one more thing to say. When i first came to Finland i loved it and i guess i still do but the attitudes of people towards me is slowly starting to get me down. I know for a fact that so many of them are nice to my face and even generally like me but i will alway be somewhat a lesser person to them regardless of my knowledge and experrince. Except to the ladies LOL

Let me know what you think.

Finland has changed as has my home country has.
I can talk with many Finnish males 30 or younger.
Since Finland joined the EU I don’t get insulted on the street anymore and the typical “interviews” in the bars from the pre EU times are a thing of the past.
I have see Finnish stand up artists having a great time insulting foreigners and I have watched American artists insulting any ethnic group of people in the USA.
The short comings of those Finnish stand up artist was that they did not make fun out of Fins as ethnic group but made fun only of non Finnish ethnic groups.
Most foreigners who live here in Finland have suffered discrimination in one form or an other.
Some are to polite to want to talk about it.
Yes, foreigners have to adapt if they want to live in Finland.
I have.
I call a spate a spate and Finland is the most racist country of the EU
Don’t know about the former communist countries.
It’s a police state too.
What stopped the neo Nazis in Turku were the foreigners themselves not their supporters the police.

http://www.uta.fi/FAST/FIN/SOCPOL/mh-racis.html

Matthew. Have you ever looked at mirror and wondered if there is something wrong with you?

I know some fools here try to tell you Finns are evil and racist. They are overall idiots who do not grasp Finnish culture. They try to pretend that Finland is just like whateveristan and that same rules apply.

For example your position on how you are so much more skilled than Finns but nobody wants to learn from you. Have you presented yourself properly in FINNISH cultural context? If you go out there and try to teach them or generally act like you would in Australia of course you get cold shoulder. Most likely your approach there, and possibly also in your attempts to get other jobs, has come out as annoying bragging ass in eyes of Finns.

Who would hire or learn from annoying bragging asshole? Nobody. But that may be what you present yourself as if you do not grasp Finnish code of conduct.

Same thing with language. What kind of responsibility can be given to you in restaurant if you cannot communicate fluently with rest of the staff in language they are used to use? I presume they used Finnish in their interaction.
Or do you presume that they switch to english for your sake alone? Might be easier, with current unemployment and all, to just let you go and replace you with someone who fits into working group and thus is less detrimental to efficiency of kitchen.

You have to stop thinking how you think you would present yourself well. You have to think how you present yourself well in eyes of Finns.

As for legal contract. How do you know they have to give it to you? Are you 100% certain you are not importing Australian legislation to Finland and presume things work the same way?

I do not claim that these are reasons why you have received treatment you did, there is some genuine racism everywhere, but this is greatest source of complaints of racism in Finland. Not Finnish racism but, sorry but it’s true, immigrant stupidity. Every sane, logically thinking person should understand that when you move to another country you cannot assume that anything is like it is at home.

At least me as a immigrant agree on one thing with the right wing Fins. And that is take it or leave it. It is better to stop nagging and complaining about the situation and accept the fact if some body thinks that things could be changed in his life time in Finland, he is damn wrong.

Why I call them right-wing, because I think this the best to describe them. The word racist is not expressive enough and I guess a Fins (sane ones) with even half a brain believe that Finnish race is some thing to be so privileged compared to others. They are just right-wing people, e.i. they are so insensitive to others and they never think of change, they want to keep the situation as it is.

About Finnish culture;
You can see what is the Finnish culture when you read the comments belong to the persons like Tiwaz. It make no more explanation needed. The best that I can describe is that their Iron fist can be seen even under their white gloves.

Again my problem as an immigrant was never that I wanted to bribe the Finnish police and they did not like it !!! The thing was always the State or organized discrimination in the society which give leverage to Fins against the immigrants.

I should also mention that through my whole career in Finland at least in work place I never saw a person like “Tiwaz”. When they need you they are polite and fair. They will not say “Either My WAY OR HIGH WAY!”

Those Fins which their daily activities are depending in Alcohol or sleeping pills (Majority in my opinion), think that it is only immigrant who needs Finland and not the Finland which needs immigrant. So this is a wrong perception. FINLAND ALSO NEEDS IMMIGRANT. AND A LOT OF THEM. So FINS better to learn how to be polite and how the things are in more civilized societies. IF they don’t want that so called immigrant take the education and expertise and leave Finland behind while showing the middle finger! 😀

Finnish cultural context
http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/images/drunk-dick-c.jpg
😀

“why not get in touch with the Ombudsman for Minorities”
It’s useless. I tried. Only 0.9% of the people who write there gets actually any help.
Just google ” racist Turku Finland” and you know my problem.
Or do a video search in google videos with:exposing racist stalkers

Unenplyment among foreigners in Finland is mostly due because there is lack of education and less work related history compared to native Finns.

Hmhh… As a Finn it makes me really sick to read these comments. Please, if you foreigners hate us racist redneck finns so much, then why do you bother to discuss our evilness and why do you bother to live in Finland at all? Is that some kind of masochism or what? Please, leave us and move to some more friendly place, if you cannot tolerate the (racist!) finnish society and our (xenophobic!) cultural norms.

Hello,

I find this conversation enlightening. It seems that some posts are blatantly out racist towards immigrants and others towards finnish people. Though, as a Finn, I generally tend to think that the majority has less reason to be offended of scared by the overflow of prejudice.

I come from an partly immigrant background, but am finnish (born and raised) myself (whatever “finnish” is supposed to mean). So, I surely don’t have so much insight into racism as many of you do. I think Mikko was quite spot on, about finnish people being a bit more introverted than many other cultures, and thus exlusion, hesitation and not being approached cannot so easily be accounted by racism, and shouldn’t be!

Employment and unemployment is a sensitive issue in finland. It is most certainly true, that there is a lot of competition for many jobs in finland at the moment. And I do suppose that such a thing as an accent or even a foreign name might (in the avarage) make it even more difficult to get a job. So, it’s maybe partly prejudice, but partly also caused by the difficult job-situation in all.

Mostly. I wanted to point out that finnsh with attitudes like “DeTant Blomhat”, “Tiwaz”, are in the minority. Thinking about say, DeTant Blomhat’s answer to question number five, and saying that “if you are arrested by the police, you must be involved in crime” – that is a typical and naive far-right / ultraconservative attitude towards the police and legal security. Certainly not shared by most of the finnsh, certainly not shared by our legal institutions, and certainly not shared by anyone having even the most basic legal education or reflective skills concerning society. As a Finn I am offended by DeTant Blomhat’s generalization that this ultraconservative view is a “finnish view”.

As you can see, someone with a great deal of prejudice does not hesitate to attribute with violence of discourse his views even to other finns. Well, last that I heard we were a democracy, and we vote with a plurality of different oppinions for the legislation. Finnish culture is _not_ a “monoculture” (if such a thing exists), you must understand that finnish culture is originally a collection of different influences from russia, sweden and even the sami-people. Of course it is typical of a far-right nationalistic attitude to try to dream up such a thing as a homogenic “finnish” culture. But, that just isn’t based on facts. A born and raised, educated citized of helsinki might have more in common with a non-finnish citydweller of say europe, than he might culturally have in common with someone living in the forests of northern finland.

It is obvious, that in any kind of form of social interaction, be it with a finn or a foreigner, you have to learn about the other person, and also learn to respect his boundaries. By making this relation unsymmetrical people like DeTant Blomhat and Tiwaz just show their unrealistic view of the finnish culture as being something homogenic and also are able to dwell on hate towards foreigners.

Interesting indeed, though scary and a bit psychotic is Tiwazis insistance on dwelling on violent news on crimes. Instead of actually getting to know non-criminals and people of the world living out normal lives.

“Why is it that if someone disagrees with an issue a common response is: go live somewhere else!”

Because our Finnish culture drives us to say so. It’s a Finnish norm. Finland is not (yet) a multiethnical, multicultural or pluralistic country and we still have only one set of basic values. We still think that everybody who lives with us must share and obey them, or otherwise be “excluded”. We do not have a tradition of having multiple sets of values in our country. We are not intolerant of others if them behave like they should behave. “When in Rome, do as the Romans do” etc.

Oh yes, it’s a very widespreaded statement. Think, for example, about having Christmas decorations in Saudi Arabia (beating, jail, even death?) or Singapore and its fascistic laws? Or Japan and “gaijins”. Or even the vast redneck-districts of USA. The multivalual countries (or rather, cities) are rare in this world, and Finland is not one of them. Try to understand this. Do not evaluate us with your (possibly multicultural) country’s values. That is cultural imperialism. We have the right to be upset about it, and defend ourselves.

“And who says that all the posts are by people who hate Finland?”

If someone whines and whines and whines and whines about racism in Finland, how typical racism is for Finns and how every Finn is racist and racism is taught in schools and living in Finland is unbearable because of racism; and if racism is a bad thing; doesn’t this mean that he/she hates Finland? Or is it some kind of a multicultural compliment, a way to tell that Finland is OK?

PS.

We Finns are very curious of what foreign people think about us. We try to please the other members of the EU. We have all learned English to communicate with them. We provide free education and other services to them. We have had innumerable campaigns to prevent racism, even in our schools. And then you foreigners whine this. We Finns have a word for this: Kiittämättömyys. Google it.

Obansu: You mean that if I don’t vote for a (social democratic) Somali or some other candidate of an ethnic minority, then I am a racist? Is that what you wanted to say?

BTW: Finnish people are one small ethnic minority of this world.

Enrique, exactly.

Enrique:

Gallen-Kallela and others indeed “whined” BUT it was Russia that had invaded and occupied their country and tried to russificate it. Now there is some guys also whining, but 1) Finland is not their native country 2) their native country is not being changed into something else 3) they (the whiners) want to change Finland to obey their standards. Gallen-Kallela and others didn’t tried to fennicizate Russia. I don’t see any sense in this comparison. The only mutual thing here is “whining”…

I might be generalizing, but I think it’s very clear that all these whining foreigners misunderstand finnish habits and see them as examples of racism. Hmm. Maybe they are not multicultural at all. They cannot cope with different habits, standards and values etc. That is not racism (racial discrimination) but ethnocentrism, narrowmindedness and perhaps bigotry.

Yes, we have lots of political parties. They all represent the same Finnish values, and usually their policies are also very similar. There’s no country where everyone shares same political opinions. Another failed comparison.

Finns are still a really homogeneous people in Europe. Minorities have been traditionally nonexistent, or at least very finnicizated (Finland-Swedes, Romanis, Samis etc.) and few. Meeting and understanding differently talking, thinking and acting people is still something really new in this country. It seems that this is a hard part to understand for some immigrants, who come from countries that have been in the centre of the civilization for centuries.

A Finnish Guy:

“The only set of rules we have is the legistlation of the country, and even that can be changed somewhat through democratic process.”

Yeah, yeah, right. You clearly, with or without purpose, misunderstood the meaning of values I used. I see… Does the law say how to act in a bus? Or in an elevator? Or how to talk with people and show interest? What is polite and what is not? There are regional differences in Finnish culture, whatever that culture means, but the differences of Finnish and any other culture are far more bigger.

Have you read anything about the Finnish national characteristics? I’ve read a manual for businessmen on how to cope with finnish culture (because I’m a curious Finn and interested in the “Suomi-kuva.”) Perhaps it was all rubbish, everybody on the Earth behave likewise and there’s only some global subcultures and brands and so on? No, we are not so globalized yet.

“Saying genericalle that all foreigners whine is just prejudice.”

I didn’t said that.

“Anyway this oppinion is usually more based on a spread of conservative urbal legend in the coffee-tables than real insidents.”

No, my opinion about whining was made on the comments in this thread.

“explain, that you are not racist, and your actions have reasons.”

Many finns, including me, have tried to do that in this thread. But somehow most of the foreigners in this conversation doesn’t (want to?) understand that, and blame us for racism over and over again.

I admit that there is racism in the Finnish society, but NOT 99% OF FINNS ARE RACISTS and so on… I don’t want to make a list about insults on Finnish people in this thread, you can read it yourself.

“Finland needs immigrant because;

1- aged population

2- lack of manpower.

3- Lots of diseases which has genetic reasons and therefore Fins should mix up with non-Fins to fix the problem”
None of these three reasons are actually true.

But it is true that they are repeated in every news report made by Yleisradio, official media source of the government, about immigration.

“if foreigners use a trick then they will succed here! make a big family like 6-7 kids! and just take social! its the best way in finland! 99% finns r racist believe me!”
Yes, this is a big problem and not fixing it after all these years of blatant abuse is a good example of how far from reality of ordinary citizens the current crop of politicians and political parties in Finland have become.

I like the premise that unemployement of foreigners in Finland is high automatically because the Evil Finns are discriminating against them. As if it isn’t possible for any other reasons.

I would not call what happened before 1917 as “whining” but a “cry for Finnish independence.”

I didn’t started to talk about whining and Finland’s independence in same sentence… As I said, I don’t see any sense in this comparison.

“There are hybrid cultures, bi and multi cultural people who feel at home in more places than one.”

Yep, but in Finland they are rare (when compared to international metropolises like London or Berlin). Remember, we have only some 5 million Finns living in a quite large area. For example, more people live in a single city just about 100 km from Finnish border, in St. Petersburg. So a real multicultural person is a very rare sight in small rural Finnish towns or even in the “bigger” “cities” like Kuopio or Jyväskylä and quite rare (by international standards) even in Helsinki.

“But statistically Finland can never be a homogeneous country because there are minorities.”

As I said, the minorities were small and very similar to Finns. They looked like Finns, usually talked also Finnish and so on, and Finns were used to them. The Finland-Swedes, the largest minority, thought that they were not Swedes but swedish-speaking Finns. They fennizicated themselves in great numbers before and after the independence struggle. Before the first, few refugees came in the 60’s and 70’s Finland was utterly homogeneous and still is.

“However, I think this idea of Finland being a near homogeneous society is a semi myth since it has never been tested when there are larger diverse groups than the Roma or Saami.”

Eh, what do you mean with this sentence? It’s quite incoherent. Do you mean that the idea of Finnish homogeneousity is a semi myth because it has not been tested (how to test an idea???) nowadays, when there are other, larger minorities?

When there were no larger minorities, Finland WAS very homogenous. And now, when there is some larger diverse groups, finland IS STILL quite homogenous, because those groups are still relatively small (smallest percentage in Europe?).

“If Finland has succeeded at “Finnicizing” minorities why are there problems with some non-Finns?”

These are typically not our hundreds-of-years-old minorities, but some newer groups, that has lived in Finland 10-20 years, doesn’t have language skills and thus are unemployed in great numbers etc. Let’s look them again in 2500.

“Another certain myth is that things were better back then and now non-Finns are destroying the country.

Probably one reason why some express such strong opinions about foreigners in this blog and in public is that foreigners are a new thing in Finland.

But you are right: foreigners and Finns should learn more about their respective cultures to avoid misunderstandings.”

Very true.

“Anselmi, you should look a little further beyond our border. There are over 1 million people who are Finns or who still consider themselves Finns living abroad.”

Yes I am quite familiar with them, Ulkosuomalaiset. There’s documents about them in TV, for example, quite frequently, and I’ve met a couple of them.

They are indeed quite a diverse group. Some groups of them have left Finland generations ago, and they still conside themselves as Finns. Others barely remember some Finnish words. Some are international businessmen (I have a relative in the UK who owns a dentist clinic), some have just escaped Finland’s poverty (My father emigrated to Sweden and worked there quite a long time).

But the “off-mainland” Finnish culture has only one sad thing: it’s dying everywhere. Those Ingrians, Finnish Americans and Forest Finns. Sooner or later the ulkosuomalaiset have assimilated into the culture where they emigrated. If some family is not seriously nationalistic (why would they leave their homeland then?) their “own culture” is lost in a couple of generations. Its assimilation, its how immigration works.

“All these people are Finns as well and have a right to claim this country as their home.”

Of course, but how long they will remember it?

“What do you think would be important to teach foreigners about Finnish culture?”

Hmm… That’s a really difficult question. It probably depends on how similar their culture is when compared with the Finnish one. Finnish habits and “etiquette” are good to know, if one wants to negotiate with Finns or otherwise spend time with them (and that is what this conversation is all about…)

Maybe some important differences of Finnish culture and theirs should be teached. But otherwise its everyones own choice by what aspect of culture interests them, and its hard to say what else every foreigner should know.

Hola Enrique

Me causo gracia lo que dijiste al comparar los colombianos con los finlandeses. En todo caso , tambien estas generalizando alli, y haciendo comentarios racistas (?) no todos los colombianos seran como tu piensas que son.

There is one thing that suprised me a lot. I lived in the Uk, and travel several times to the schnegen area. I have entered to the Schengen area via Norway, Netherlands, Italy, France, Germany and this year twice via Finland. The only country where the police has stopped to me at the inmigration point is in Finland. I am sure is because I am Latin American with dark skin and dark hair.

I have lived in many countries, in Scnadinavia, Continental Europe, Uk, Africa and Asia….and everywhere I have found discrimination and unfair rules agaisnt minorities. It is the nature of the human being….we need to protect ourselves.

Hola Enrique

Lei los anteriores post y me encontre con uno que dice que has vivido en Colombia. Aun sigo pensado que es graciosa la comparacion que haces de los Colombianos y los Filandeses. Entre otras cosas porque ( segun tengo entendido) los Finlandeses no tienen un tradicion de ser una cultura violenta. Creo que esa comparacion es mas valida entre un Colombiano y un Ingles. Los dos pueden matar, uno con la sonrisa en la cara, y el otro diciendote “love” o “darling”. Pero los finlandeses segun mi modo de ver son gente pacifica, transparente y con una etica elevada ( quizas producto de la alta influencia de la iglesia protestante alli (?).

Well I just wanted to contribute because I see a lack of positive experiences in this thread. I have to say I do not feel discriminated in any way in this country, or, maybe I do not care if someone does not want to get along with me, is their problem :D. I am from Mexico, have the “latin” look and happen to be married to a Dutch guy that I met in Finland. We have friends of many nationalities including many Finns.

We decided to stay here for practical reasons, we both have jobs (not in Nokia), but in English working environment companies, and we think services work and are less burocratic as opossed to Mexico, I actually feel better in terms of gender equality, this is a paradise compare to how women in Mexico are discriminated at work.

I speak English at home and at work, so my Finnish skills have suffered, nevertheless I would like to improve my Finnish at some point, at least I can enroll again to another Finnish course at my workplace and try to practice… I have a son, who goes to päiväkoti, he can now say many words in Spanish, Dutch and Finnish, I am afraid we will learn Finnish before me!!

In general, I think it makes a difference if you have a good job here, that you actually enjoy and get fair paid for, keep some hobbies and have a nice social network that somehow can replace family. Our little family here is the three of us. But overall I am happy.

First of all, I have to say again, that the racism in this thread seems to go both ways. I’m not really concerntrating on the racism towards finns in my replies.
–
There is a problem with the so-called principle of “In Rome do as Romans do”, or “Maassa maan tavalla”. And this is something I would be glad to see Anselmi, DeTant Blomhat etc. to understand.

Now to me ,first of all, I do not think the principle is coherent. It is not well enough described to be so. So, the racist situations it allows go as follows: If person A, from a foreign country, acts a bit different from person B from finland, person B, if racist may get angry and then explain, that the problem was that person A didn’t act like “you are supposed to in finland.

Still and at the same time it is highly possible that person C from finland acts just as person A or more like person A, not like person B. So as the whole fact of “how to act in filand” is not well defined, it serves as an endless mechanism of justifying perjudice behaviour, and then not calling it such. Just calling it “the way of the country”.
–
Now, the other problem is this, and I repeat myself: in _every_ kind of real social interaction both sides, be it a finn and finn, or a finn and a foreigner have to learn. Saying that it is only the foreigners “job” to adapt is unrealistic and even threatening. It doesn’t really open up real possibilities for social interaction. Both sides need to reflect on themselves, _not_ on others. This is the constructive approach to the matter.

And I want to ask Anselmi, DeTant etc. Do they understand this fact?

“Yeah, yeah, right. You clearly, with or without purpose, misunderstood the meaning of values I used. I see… Does the law say how to act in a bus? Or in an elevator? Or how to talk with people and show interest? What is polite and what is not? There are regional differences in Finnish culture, whatever that culture means, but the differences of Finnish and any other culture are far more bigger.”

Look, I might act much more similar to say a mexican or a turkish guy in an elevator than to a random savonian. There is no typically finnish way to go on a elevator. Maybe we are a bit more quite, but I see no mind in actually telling foreigners that they are not “allowed” to talk on busses, because this is not the finnish way. WTF? That would be non-sense. I know in fact that many finnish people are gladdend when they are approached by foreigenrs that have a bit more active social skills and are not afraid to talk to new people. So it would be completely nonsensical to say, that in finland foreigners should become introeverted, because a lot of, especially country-side, finns are introverted.

elGreco:

“blond, not racist(yet) finn boy : yes you are racist. See the comment you made:
Thank u all for making me a bit more proud of my Finnish roots and our superiour welfare country!”

And again these. I don’t want to be a 24/7 defender of Finnish culture, but when I read this kind of comments I had to react.

Are you a troll or something?

If someone is proud of his Finnish roots and Finnish welfare, that isn’t racism. Racism means racial discrimination. Or maybe ethnical, but this kind of definitions are only ridiculous. Try to understand the meaning of words before you use them. This is how “racism” is becoming an empty word, that doesn’t mean anything, and what is used when trying to insult someone.

Yes you are a troll.

A Finnish guy:

Yes, I understand your points, but I think some of them have too much naivete, obliviousness and/or idealism in them that I could wholly accept them.

Fabiola:

“Well I just wanted to contribute because I see a lack of positive experiences in this thread. I have to say I do not feel discriminated in any way in this country.”

Nice to hear that! 🙂

“Swedish, Danish and Norwegian wealthfare is by far more superior to Finnish welfare”

U are absolutely right and Im happy it’s that way. No wonder why other nordic countries have 5-10times more asulym seekers. See the pattern?

I wasnt talking about economical welfare only. Ive been in swe / den and Ive read and seen a lot. Finland is far more safer country to live in. Good game.

Maybe I should, good idea mate!

Anyway, the bottom line of my first sarcastic message was that after reading this whole “conversation” here, the racistic messages here are coming from other people than finns. Reading this information here has changed my opinion about foreigners totally.

I have no more interested to read and comment here. Have fun despising us finns here. I still keep living happily in our finnish “lintukoto” thx n bye! 🙂

”

From the historical standpoint, coming to Finland has very often been a strong statement about what you think about the society you leave behind and the labels that it places upon a man. Moving to Finland has in earlier times meant that you run, flee and leave everything behind, cut all ties to your old life. Among the Russians who came soon after 1917, there were noblemen of highest rank from St. Petersburg and men who had left unimaginable riches behind them in Russia. In here they became just like everyone else, anonymous. In Finland, to my opinion, it is not possible to become happy or build relations with locals if your head is full of ideas about being a Christian, a jew, a communist, a rich man, a beggar, a moslim, a moral man, an intelligent man, an educated man, a man of the world etc.. One can only become oneself. This is the last asylum of the people “who guard the wisdom about how not to think and talk continuously or believe in useless things”, as my grandfather used to explain to his Russian born neighbor after few drinks. ”

My family came in 1919 from ST.Petersburg. They had to leave everything behind. Apartment, even photos. My great grand father was over 50 years old, without no money with two children in Finland. No going back. On ly one of his brothers managed to come to Finland. Other family perished.

He was a businessman, he had bought weed from Russia to a finnish company and sold finnish produce in Russia. He got emplyed and was building a house in 1921! With his brother they started and reopened orthodox -church that was left by russian soldiers. In surroundings there were next to none other orthodox-people in 20-30-ties.

Children adopted in sociaty as the family. Children got educated in lyseum and kauppaoppilaitos also girls. 1939 onward my grandmother worked as Lotta and his brother was officer in finnish army. He was in rank of capitan in Karelian isthmus defending Finland against enemy coming from his birth city.

They got integrated and made good life in Finland – even though they arrived pennyless -with out multiculturalism etc. dogma.

Did you miss the message in his tale?

They made it because they did not try to change Finland. They accepted for what it was and built from there, adapting to society and not expecting society to adapt to them.

Same thing works today.

Those who are willing to work for their living, willing to integrate into Finland as it is. Welcome. Those who want to introduce(push) their “groundbreaking” cultural or ideological ideas (like multiculturalism) into Finnish society…

F*** off.

No, integration means assimilation. Integration without obeying local cultural norms is not integration. It is mere citizenship fishing. And that is failure. Integration must never result in minorities and divisions formed in society where none are.

Thank you dear Enrique for this nice effort and great job you are putting down with this site. About Finland I should say that it is a beautiful country. I personally coming from a cultural back ground which adores beauty and art. I have learned to be fair and have courage to admit into the truths. Therefore I appreciate the good things in every country including Finland.

During my stay I have never tried to change Finnish culture. I have always kept distance not to make Fins uncomfortable. The only thing that molest people in general and foreigners in particular, is a break which hold people from being happy. This break is working much stronger for foreigners.

Yes it is true that Fins having a social security system and this is very good in comparison with many countries, but I doubt if Fins are truly happy. This people hardly laugh from their bottom of their heart. They hardly able to express themselves. They have a low self esteem. They are not so friendly within themselves even and if they are, they have a very strange way to show it. In their view, all foreigners are guilty unless proven not. So I can talk for hours about this. It is these things that give a very bad image from Finland.

Most Fins think that foreigners live on social benefits. But I was working in Finland since 97. Some months I have paid more than 2500 euros tax, which is 7-8 times of the social allowance.

Fins have right to think however they want, but there is a world outside their imagination. In a world of constant change, one should be very ignorant to resist change. A culture, a society or any entity if does not change according to conditions, is doom to be diminished and extinguished. This is what the politicians see, because they see the rest of the world. however they are not willing to theorize it and explain it for the people. because next step is give their place to some one more capable. They dont want this. So they make a phenomenon such as Somalian phenomena. This way they can justify their way in how discriminatory treat immigrants and at the same time to make Fins feel better about themselves. Some of these Politicians were people like Finnish Foreign Minister Ilkka Kanerva who was fulfilling his sexual needs with the money of tax payers.

Either Fins learn to change, or they will learn the change. This is their only way. Resisting against this makes change happen later, but more painful. Finland should think macro and not micro if they want to survive. They need many immigrants in next 30 years. This population is too old. Among their new generation there is only a few who will become an specialist and actually making things. The rest are consuming and they can be used in service section. Bringing only a few Indian will not fully help them. These Indians after a few years in Nokia, leave Finland if they are treated upon their race and culture and law does not endorse them. This will be another loss.

So open up Finland.

Alien, you are wrong. There is also alternative.

Read history, we have lots of text on how natives who resent others pushing into their land react to attempts of forced entry.

It is called war. And Finns, fortunately, are not unarmed savages. If it did take place that some people tried to flood Finland, you can bet they have soon 2 options.

Integrate and act according to Finnish culture.

Or die.

That is human nature. We defend what is ours. You want to take it, prepare for a fight. And Finns know how to fight. Enrique will again get a stroke, but that is truth. Read history. Humans have not changed a bit. UN cannot make Finns accept foreigners no matter what flooding takes place elsewhere. Finns will first get annoyed, then angry (along with rest of nations who are attempted to be forced to accept refugees who refuse to integrate and assimilate) and then there is violence. And not just in Finland. But everywhere. No society will accept such flood and not turn against it violently.

As for learning. You foreigners should learn from Finns. What I see abroad is so much empty words, useless gestures and basically lack of true happiness in form of being content with your life. You people are so miserable that you have to put up facades of happiness and friendship because else your true misery would show.

Finn does not need those. Finn is secure in his identity, content with his life. He will not laugh and act like Italian. Because unlike Italian, Finn has no need. Finn is happy.

Your issue, Alien, is that Finns didn’t act like people on your native country. So now you whine how Finns are evil, when it was you who failed to understand that you are no longer in Middle East. Classical immigrant stupidity.
You expect Finland to be like your hole in sand, but when it is you complain about it and whine how Finns must be so sad because they are not like people of your native country.

And fail to see the true happiness of Finns.

So, my real name is Matti Veijola. Happy now?

Or is it… Oh dear. Perhaps I value my privacy and right to privacy. Not to have lunatics like you trying to look after my personal information to bother me and my family in my home. Because we both know your kind of lunatics do practice it.

It is alien who makes threats. That Finland is invaded and native culture killed off. Like it was done in Argentina. We, natives, refuse to go without a fight. It is not threat, it is reality.

And you fail to grasp that happiness is not absolute. There are definitions of happiness. When I am most happy, I do not feel need to get cramp to my face muscles. I just enjoy the blissfull feeling. And no, I do not smile.

You do understand that you are being culturally intolerant by demanding a change in finnish culture? You do understand that there are about 100 finns for every foreigner? So to accomodate one foreigner 100 finns should change the way they interact with strangers, personal space, demand shopservice etc….

Many cultural things in finnish culture go in the complete opposite of other cultures. Im not claiming that there aren’t racist in Finland. There aren’t a country where there aren’t any. It just is that finnish culture and idioms are so different from most cultures that they might seem impolite, even hostile.

The personal space is a hard one. In Finland it’s polite to give people space, as mutch as is available. Arabic countries have a culture of getting close and it’s impolite to keep distance, not sure how it is in others. In Finland personal space is probably the largest of all cultures. That 1.5m is about right in a bus. That’s why when bus fills up it starts from every other window seat, and lastly isle seats. But on a street it’s more, about 3-10 meter’s depending on how crowded it is. On a nearly empty street it’even more. A doctor’s waiting room fills from far ends and egual spaced then on. There was a mention of elevators and not getting on. If its a small elevator, seats about 4, and not heavy traffic on it, it’s polite to get next one even if there’s only one person in it. The list goes on and on.

When shopping if you don’t get service you aren’t being insulted. Most finns prefer it that way. We ask if we need assistance. A service person might come to ask if you need help but yo need to look really lost for it. Too pushy service hurts sales.

Talking to strangers on streets. Don’t. If you see a finn to talk on street to many people he’s probably crazy. So if you do it you will probably be labeled somewhat crazy too.

Eyecontactact on busses etc. Definite nono. In public you dont acknowledge strangers. You give them room but you act like they don’t exist. This manifest best in busses. People don’t usually ask to get off from window seat. They are given room just from the way they start to move when stop comes close.

These are just a few of the things in finnish culture that go completely opposite of the most cultures. It might look impolite or racist to people from other cultures but we are grown fond of it. By demanding a change in these and many more you are being culturally intolerant.

Enrique Says:
“I, personally, think that Finland would be a near-perfect society from my point of view if some people were not so suspicious and reticent of people who are not like them.”

“I do not think that any sensible person is asking Finnish culture to change. ”

There you have a missundeerstanding of finnish culture and ask it to change. You think incorrectly it’s becouse your different from them. That applys to everybody. If somebody from Rovaniemi moves to Helsinki and lives there for 20 years, people of helsinki don’t consider him as a people of helsinki. It takes a long time for somebody to be considered a local even from moving inside country, possibly a generation.

The biggest problem with what you write is that you say we are reticent and suspicious of people different from us, but don’t say how it manifest itself.
Here I have to guess that it’s becouse you don’t have interaction with neighbors. Well, most finns don’t, most don’t know their names or what they look like. It’s part of the culture.

As theres structural unemployment with finnish born, dont you think that some of this can be structural unenmployment with immigrants? Studies that show with increased stay in the country the unemployment goes down, This points that there is some thuth in saying the immigrant unemployment largely is structural. With time language skills better and education too. In Norge the immigrant unemployment rate is 3 times higher that the unemployment rate of the country as a whole so the immigrant unemployment isn’t uniquelly a finnish problem.

-With a foreigner it is a bit different. In first place some are not even accepted as a member of this society; too many are unemployed and on welfare. We have spoken before in this blog about the causes behind the high 20-percent unemployment as we almost had in the early 1990s, remember? As long as people don’t have work they will not be part of Finnish or any society. If I were to start, I would work on this aspect, or at least bring down unemployment among foreigners to 10 percent.
What do you think?

This is easy! Or would be if you were not so stupid at demanding Finns to accept foreigners. LEARN HOW TO ACT IN FINLAND.

There is very little unemployment in ranks of foreigners who went through integration. Learned how to speak the language, how to act properly in Finnish culture. They present themselves as integrated foreigners. So every employer has reason to presume that they know how to act in workplace without annoying the hell out of everyone.

But then we have this 20% of idiots who think they should get job without putting any effort at adjusting to society around them. They should not be pampered. It is their choice not to put work towards learning to act properly in Finland, not to show off miles away how they cannot fit in the group.

Because why would Finn hire someone into work who will disrupt the working conditions? Only idiot hires someone who causes more problems than his work is worth. That is why there are interviews, to see how person fits in the work community. Foreigners just do not fit in, they repeatedly cause cultural conflicts. It does not matter how much Finns understand it. We know you come from different culture. But it still annoys us when you break things like privacy zone. It makes us feel uncomfortable. We understand it, but we do not accept it. We tolerate it for a time, but if you keep doing it day after day…

It becomes annoying. That is why guy who does not fit in the work community is not hired, or finds himself resigning soon. Same is true for Finns, but they know how culture works because they were born to it. So they know how NOT to act.

This is only small example of cultural conflict caused by cultural differences. It is duty of immigrant to learn to behave in a way that does not cause conflict. If they do not, if they insist on this multicultural impossibility, they will become division. And as we have seen in history, divisions breed violence.

If a person is discriminated against it because of his looks, skin or hair color it’s racism. If a person is discriminated because of his ethnic origin, He might be a German or a Serb who looks like a Fin or almost like a Fin then it is discrimination because of his ethnic origin. The difference is, when you look different you can be isolated and separated more easily. I am not here to waste my time with Finnish racists or Finns who discriminate against people based mainly on the fact that those people aren’t Fins. Discrimination is as old as Finland itself. I remember the hate towards foreigners in 78 and after that and Finland had only 20.000 foreigners and there was not the excuse of LAMA or depression which come in 93. To hate and to discriminate is Finnish culture ( just kidding )
In my 14 years living in Germany I was not one single time insulted by Germans for being a foreigner. It was back in the 60’s and 70’s. There are Fins who will not discriminate against foreigners on the base that they are foreigners but they are a minority among the Fins. According to the Finnish radio only 18% of the Fins have generally a positive opinion about foreigners. So I throw my lot with every 6th Fin and try to avoid the other 5/6 as good as I can. One out of 6 aren’t that bad.

A few comments of my about Finnish culture but in a funny way:
Fins eat more often pizza then Italians. Met some years back an Italian who was amazed at the amounts of Pizzeria here.
Fins eat more bananas then anybody else in Europe ( bananas don’t grow in Finland )
Fins drink more coffee then anybody else on this planet ( coffee don’t grow in Finland )
“Karjalaan piiraka” made with the rice grown in Finland?
You can hear more English songs coming from the Finnish radio then English songs in England.
To the foreigners on this board:
Happy people ( talking about most Fins on this board ) don’t talk like that.
Don’t permit yourself to become like them ( again, not all Fins are people who feel more hate then love in their hearts but to many do so )
Work together with the positive Fins and positive foreigners.
Negativity can drag you down as can a bitter reality.
It’s just a waste of energy which could be used for something positive.
Be happy even if the sun don’t shine ( sometimes it does shine)
I had once a conversation with an Eesti friend of my.
She said the following:
Those are the typical characteristics of most Fins:
Envy
High expectations and therefore failure
Low self confidence
===========================
Back to the Finnish radio:
The average Fin has 1-2 friends and gets 2 visits per year
=================================================
Those are my observations: Friendship is built during the years they go to school or study. Later friendship might be established at the work place or in a group they belong. Like a group of people interested in dancing particular dances etc.
Most friendship anyway develop during school or studies.
So even for Fins it is difficult to get friends.
The bars here in Finland are for getting drunk NOT for being social.
That comment was made by an Irish friend of my.
So the problem is twofold.
Discrimination ( and that applies to people not to food, music or stuff)
and isolation.
Most Fins are isolated with hardly any social contacts and they like it ( or at least say so). Don’t know if there is a connection between being lonely, depression and alcoholism.
I was married to a Fin for 20 years and my kids ( I have 3 ) were born and raised in Finland. So don’t tell me I don’t know the mentality.
Critic is seeing as a very negative thing by most Fins and indeed it is a negative thing in most countries that are not democratic.
I also find it funny that when under pressure some Fins then compare the bad stuff in Finland with the bad stuff in some other country that is in a worse position.
Finland should be compared to other EU countries and/or Scandinavian countries.
I won’t debate with haters
Have a nice time

elGreco. Let me guess…

Youwere mistreated because you did not get a job in Finland and people do not act like they did back at home?

I’m perfectly correct I guess…

At which phase, greco, you thought that someone would find use for someone like you? You do not speak the language, you disrupt the work community with incorrect behavior…
What kind of employer would employ someone who is more trouble than worth?

Of course, instead of being critical about your own exellence, you come up with this theory of racism and speak to other no-speak immigrants to reinforce your excellent conclusion.

Could it be that this 82% of Finns who have bad opinion about foreigners are ones who have had bad experiences of them?

You know, who see, hear and read about whining foreigners. Demanding more and more things. G****** women in dark parks.

That kind of stuff easily turns people against foreigners.
And in same sense, you lack grasp of Finnish culture. Here honesty and straight talk are valued.

Not this foreign beating around bush and never getting to point. Enrique here complains that we insult him. Well, if I see him present i**** opinions little research and critical thinking would solve. I call him i****. I call spade a spade and not for example dirt movement device.

There is no malice involved. I do not hate Enrique. But I do strongly dislike the future he tries to build for Finland. One of conflict and civil war. We had that once already. No need to build another by replacing reds of civil war with unintegrating foreigners for next war.

Then I remeber the Iranian who studied in Finland computer technology and can’t get the Finnish citizenship because the Finnish Gestapo has some secret information about him that is so secret that they can’t reveal it even to the judge and the Fins argued that everything is right so. The example given was a Fin who was spying for the DDR but the reasons there could rather be government involvement and heads of Finnish politicians could have been rolling but how they treat an Iranian is again a clear case of discrimination with the victim being as usually the suspect. There must be a reason why so many Fins don’t trust foreigners. Blame the foreigners for it.
Other excuses are the Lama or depression Finland had. I was in Finland BEFORE lama or the depression and that time Finland had only 20.000 foreigner but I was insulted and told to go back to my home country about every second time I went to a bar. I have spend 13 years in Germany and not one single times did Germans tell me to go back to my home country. I left Germany in 74
No, Fins are funny. They think everybody else must be an idiot or Finland is the only country in the world. On a scale of 1-10 Finland is not the most racist but it’s among the top.
better then Saudi Arabia but I am not from Saudi Arabia

Hi Alat Katin,

I beleive it is quite ok to come to Finland and study. As you have read on this postings…finns are not the most communicative people on earth but they certainly don’t bother you. You might even end up making life long trustworthy finnish friends.

There is racism in Finland – big time!. There is no denial… and everything that is written here regarding racism isfor the most part true. However, I had a friend in Med school in Finland and she didn’t experience any out right prejuduce neither from her peers nor the faculty staff. Therefore, rest assured, once you get through the cultural differences, home sickness, and what not you will manage to go through you schooling without having to face unsurmountable challenges.

The aparthied is in the job market, it is very difficult for foreigners to achieve their full potential. however much you contribute to the firm – it is not recognised. Your mistakes are exagerated etc….

I hope you will have a good time in Finalnd if and when you come…also remember experiences are subjective…so, come here and see for yourself.

Cheers,

-You repeatedly say that foreigners disrupt the work environment. Could you please tell me how they do it? do they start dancing and singing wearing leaves while others work? please elaborate your remark. I am confused!

Cultural conflict. Have you ever noticed that people of different cultures have different way of doing same things? Or acting differently?

They disrupt the work enviroment by simply acting in way which is at odds with how work enviroment works in Finland. If things are done in one way here, and you insist on doing it differently it can be very disruptive to working conditions as unnecessary effort and work goes to sorting out the mess caused by two different ways of doing same thing.

It happens between Finns too, but when someone with totally different cultural background comes and does things even more differently it is a mess.

-Moreover, do you really beleive that Finns excel in what ever they do? do you also beleive that all foreingers don’t speak the language and are less skilled?

Have I said that? Do you think that their skills or lack of them somehow should make them so holy and precious that they do not have to respect language and culture of society they moved into?

If they cannot speak the language, worth of their skills is reduced because they have other handicaps. Language and culture! And they are too stupid or arrogant to understand that.

If your working enviroment speaks Finnish, how much good are your skills, or lack of them, if you cannot use them in Finnish?

-also, could you please define finnish culture for me? I heard the proximity bit but it does not cut it. i am not a finn but i do appreciate my personal space as well… I don’t know my neighbours nor do I make an effort to know them, i don’t want to sit next to anyone in public transports … i love annonimity…do I qualify as a Finn because i have the same characteristics? Will i get employed if I promise not to disrupt the work environment?

How about you defining your culture to me. It should give you little experience on how complex cultural influence is.

I notice you too started to preach about racism without grasping the actual issue. Here is quote from you Linda.

There is far less racism by Finns in Finland than you try to claim. There is, however, racism by immigrants which is rampant. Refusal to learn Finnish way of doing things, Finnish way of interaction. Because of immigrants refuse to learn those, they fail repeatedly in the most basic acts of interpretating actions and words. And when they fail, they scream racism. Because they failed to adjust their thinking to new enviroment.

Immigrants appear to be biggest racists in Finland.

-One thing that is incredible about your arguments is how much effort you put in to showing how different people are from the Finns. If you are fair, the differences are in between in your ears. The big difference with your argument and mine is that you blame everything on multiculturalism, when, in fact, a society may have deficiencies to handle people from other cultures. Why is it important? Because we want to achieve a person´s full potential in society; it is cheaper and more effective than paying social welfare, which is only another way for politicians and policy makers to wash their hands of the problem.

You mean we are all alike and all that jizzz… So WHY IS THERE CONFLICT IN THE WORLD IF WE ARE SO ALIKE?

WHY EVERYWHERE WHERE YOU HAVE MULTIPLE CULTURES INHABITING SAME AREA WE SEE THEM FIGHT?

MULTICULTURALISM DOES NOT WORK!

See, it is that simple, I wrote it in big, plain letters for you to finally grasp it. If multiculturalism was possible, it would have worked already. Everyone knows it has been tried in one form or another enough times when different cultures have met. Except…

It has never worked. Conflict comes and either one side is wiped out or subjected to rule of another.

That is why it is essential that immigrants are made to integrate into Finnish society. To ensure that there are no divisions which will cause those conflicts. It is in interests of Finns, but above all else it is in interests of immigrants. Because they are the losing side if conflict is permitted to start.

And only part where you make sense is that culture changes. Yes, it does. But it does so very slowly, very gradually and ONLY ACCORDING TO DESIRES OF NATIVES. If natives, those who define the culture through their actions and values, do not want some change. It will not take place, no matter how much idiotic foreigners whine that things are not like at home.

And apparently you and Linda think you are so clever with your “what is Finnish culture”-question.

I’ll answer your question once you have given me complete and thorough analysis on what YOUR culture is like. Point by point.

If you think it is so easy to put culture into few bullet points, it should not be great task for you.

Answer, Finnish culture is what Finns (this again is not same as citizen of Finland) find collectively as their preferred way to act, their core values and so forth.

I think it is not worth to discuss with Tiwaz… he lives somewhere behind the moon. You should maybe go traveling or live in another country for a while to wake up.

Ever looked at the economic growth forecast for Finland and Australia for next year? Finland has +0.5 % while Australia has 2.0 %

You know, calculator, issue is not that Finns cannot respect foreign cultural norms. We can, very well actually. That is what we use when we sell our stuff abroad, we try to sell it in way that makes customer want to buy. (in which also our cultural tradition of striving for straight and clear answers instead of useless dribble works for us. Businessmen globally do not appriciate wasting their time on irrelevant crap)

Problem are you foreigners in Finland who refuse to accept that in Finland you have to sell yourself to Finns in way that makes Finns want to “buy” you.

If person trying to get a job cannot speak Finnish or interact with Finns without problems. What kind of imbecile of an employer would take them in? Nobody! It is not racism of employer or Finland or Finns, but racism of immigrants to refuse to learn how to do things in Finland the Finnish way.

And as said, Nokia is very small employer. Small to mid range companies hire huge majority of workers. And they do not have need to switch to english speaking office.

Sorry, ment every 4th person in Helsinki 🙂

However, I also want to say that I personally try to learn the Finnish language because I respect the culture of others but I think it will still take a few years…

-“My Finnish Girlfriend has no problem with me as a Foreigner. And I know so many other Foreigners who have a girlfriend/boyfriend here…but I think we have to distinguish between a Finn who knows the world and a Finn who only knows the trees in front of his house and lives still in the 60s!

You guys have to learn how to live with foreigners otherwise you will get a problem here….did you know that by 2025 every 4th person will have a foreign background in Finland? What are they all going to do here? If you don’t want to pay taxes for them you have to give them work 🙂

I also heared that it is cool to have a foreigner as a boy/girlfriend in Helsinki…there were some girls in the city last time who said that they are British but in fact were Finns.”

Yes, I know this youth movement of “all foreign is cool”. It happens everywhere.
And minor detail that your importing girlfriend finds you nice is not proof of anything.

I used to date foreign girl in my earlier youth. Nice girl and all that. Nothing in that. But it does not change fact that permitting or encouraging foreigners to stick to their foreign ways or encouraging them not to put more effort and work to learning to live in Finland according to Finnish principles is unacceptable. It will result in divided society which in turn means conflict.

Only method to avoid this conflict is to ensure there is no division, that means that foreigners have to learn to let go of their previous assumptions, preconceptions and ways. And learn to do stuff the Finnish way.

I do not know what those assumed 25% of HKI population are going to do here either. If they cannot communicate and act properly with 75% of HKI population, and over 90% of population of Finland.

They are useless. Odds of this taking place are minimal anyway. Increase of foreigners will very soon cap in HKI area.

Now, Enrique. Start answering my questions.

You want debate, start providing some foundation for your claims on excellence of multiculturalism.

1)The dividing line you talk about are in between people’s ears. The bottom line of these conflicts is when one group imposes its will and ways on another.

So you do admit that divisions are reason for conflict?
It does not matter where those divisions are, because as long as they exist they will be source of conflict.

2)This is what it aims to do THEORETICALLY but it does not happen in practice. It is incorrect to think that when people from very diverse cultures come to a country in Finland just lock themselves up in a cultural compartment and stay there. Since they live in a new country, they change as do the people who deal with them. It is a sort of dynamic process of give and take. Some are more able to adapt to the host culture faster than others. Some, can live in both cultures. It is like traveling form one country to the other. I do it all the time.

In practice it fails even worse. They segregate, separate and form division. This is seen everywhere in the world. Immigrants sticking to immigrants, clinging to their old ways and causing friction.

3)Instead of forcing and destroying people’s identity, why not try to do it another way: accept diversity; learn to live and respect each other. Isn’t that the way how people become good friends and share friendship?

Humm… Again, conflict? You see, people do not act like you say they should. They act like they do. History proves that people just do not become good friends and share friendship.

You are again spewing your “if nobody committed crime, we would not need police”-dogma. I am not interested in what you WISH there was, I am interested in what there IS. Because one is your delusion, which is limited between your ears. And another is reality in which we live, and in which people divided culturally slaughter one another.

5)These companies work in a corporate culture. They focus on how to minimize cultural problems in order to maximize profits. Corporate culture is nothing more than a universal sort of culture. Most of the managers have studied at universities, lived abroad so cultural differences are not an issue. When I worked in Colombia as bureau chief for a US news agency, the managers were people who had studied in universities such as the London School of Economics, Yale, Harvard etc…

But if people are so happy and good friends with one another, why would there be need for corporate culture which minimizes cultural problems? After all, why would there be cultural problems if everyone was getting along fine and being friends and all that crap?

You yourself here admit that there are cultural problems!

5)Because there IS a problem. However, we cannot generalize. What would I teach such people? I’d tell them that since women have been emancipated in many respects (salaries are still lower than what men make) the worst insult you can commit to a member of the opposite sex is to rape or take away her rights. It is a big cultural NO-NO as well as being a serious crime.

And it is CULTURAL problem. You are right now imposing in their CULTURE. You are telling them they cannot hold on to their own culture here in Finland. what happened to multiculturalism? Where is “Their way is just as good as Finnish way” idea?

You are prescribing my solution to problems. Make sure everyone who immigrates understand and accept Finnish cultural norms as standard for behavior in Finland, and forget their existing preconceptions.

Calculator, you are idiot.
Do you know how those foreign origin items are sold? In Finnish way! Because trying to sell something without understanding Finnish language and culture is failure.
But you are too thick to get it into your bonehead.

Pizza is not culture. Eating it does not change anything in my culture, my values, my traditions and so on. Pizza is just food.

It has more cultural importance for italians, for Finn it is just food. And I never said culture does not change. But what you fail to grasp is that Finnish culture is changes to fit wants and needs of FINNS. That is, people who build their identity through it.

Finns will not change culture to fit you foreigners. Perhaps something worthy from your culture is altered to fit ours. But we say what is worthy to be added, not you. Most of what you find worthy is pure shit from our point of view. As it fails to respect existing Finnish culture. And we do not tear it apart to accommodate some piece of your culture for which we see no use or value.

Honestly, I don’t care…I find it quite amusing to read this stuff. Didn’t know that such people still exist 🙂

“Tiwaz can’t just accept that the Finnish Culture has mixed up with the Italian Culture. Hmmm..what would the world do without the Italian Pizza Culture…you find it everywhere in the world.

Ok, next example…Big Brother is originally from the Netherlands and it is not food…I think I have also seen it on TV with some Finns in it 🙂 Finnish TV Culture has changed as well…(and they are not introvert as they show themselves to everybody)

Now he is going to tell me that those Finns are betrayer of the Finnish Culture and not real Finns 🙂 ”

Imbecile, read the dictionary definition of culture and tell which part of Finnish values, traditions etc has changed with eating pizza?

Nothing! It has not added anything to our culture. It is food idiot. Culture is not physical, you cannot bake it and eat it.

Tiwaz: Believe whatever you want 🙂

Is this also part of the Finnish Culture to call others Idiots and Losers? 🙂 You have a really weak personality 🙂

Tell me, is it racism if you do not get a job because you cannot speak or behave properly and your possible certificates are not recognized in Finland?

Do you honestly think that Finn, if they managed to have as little credentials, would get a job?

Answer to that racist losers.

By the way, Enrique, I notice that you have failed to respond to my message in “Foreigners in Finland: Integration or conversation? ” as an example. Ran out of ways to try to avoid the issue so you just hope you can silence the truth to death?

Could also be. I don’t care…he has a personal problem 🙂

Don’t know which foreigners you know…at least those foreigners who I know come from civilized countries within the EU and have problems finding a Job here.

I also know a foreigner who has 2 Master Degrees from Finland and is still not able to get a job here but I also know one guy who has no degree at all and works here in programming.

I think you just need to be lucky and find the right employer…guess that’s the same in other countries.

-I was wondering if Tiwaz would also behave like a Baby if he would be exposed to a different environment…I guess he would be really quite and polite 🙂 Now he will tell us: That’s the reason why I stay at home and never go to another country 🙂

When I visit foreign countries, I respect their culture and tradition Imbecilator.

It is basic politeness which you and Enrique appear to be incapable of grasping. You demand appeasement from us natives, instead of respecting our culture.

And don’t give me that bullshit about “two way road”. That is just pathetic excuse to demand appeasement.

“Two way road” is just way of getting guy whos culture tells him to take a dump at my livingroom carpet to take a dump in the toilet, as room not as object, and then demand me to accept that.

No way.

Immigrant integrates, society they immigrates to does not come halfway there because you are too stupid or lazy to change.

You came here, you were not dragged in against your will. So shut up about your two way road and start accepting that in Finland, the Finnish way is the supreme way.

My Finnish friends; In spite of what u like or not, the way Finland is going is toward more openness to outside. Preferably to countries within EU or non-moslem countries. Why because you need man power. Only a tiny fraction of you might think otherwise.

Now the comment from intternetnetsi;
“After 6 years its about +-0, before that we pay.” If that is true that is the price you have to pay when you are not so useful in bed and your population is shrinking. Not doing so give you the same faith as Mohegans or Azteks. The word is extinction!

Finding job in Finland;
Calculator says; “at least those foreigners who I know come from civilized countries within the EU and have problems finding a Job here. ”
Well if you from civilized countries within EU feel the problem, imagine people like me coming from uncivilized countries outside EU! 😀

Body snatchers:
Every time I saw movies like “body snatchers” or the new version, “Invaders”, it reminds me of Fins. They are truly people who respect the laws and very disciplined. They cannot tolerate any one not alike themselves. They say we cannot tolerate deficiency! They claim that they have superior culture and ways of doing things. They are the most sufficient. And perfect. Free of emotions. Or maybe we cannot grasp and digest their culture. The only problem that they have is that they are not human.

Any one sharing the same experience with me ? :-/

Or is your racism that you dont understand that we take you as equal, not some fragile multiculture identity who breaks with few words?

-them have never been taught that racism/discrimination is wrong.

Well not really because atleast i think everyone is equal without teaching. Problem is people who see discrimination when theyre treaded equally.

And to alien, in finland we give great value for words and own space. You seem to see that as coldness. E.G if you fall in ice no one “sees” you because of your dignity. That doesnt apply if youre old or child or really hurt yourself.
Also remember that if you get finnish frend you get frend for life, its not american “friend”.
About speaking you have choose your words carefully because theyre bonding, not like american chitchat. Sanasta miestä, sarvesta härkää is old finnish saying.
So you just dont get finnish culture.

-Yes, right. You “respect” other people’s culture. Your comments show that.

Yes they do. In their country, I respect their culture and traditions. Unlike you idiots who demand appeasement when you move to Finland

-Your comparisons are getting weirder by the day. You should get an award for furthering the cause of cultural understanding among people. What about if I nominate you as president of the Advancement of Multiculturalism in Finland?

Then I will happily declare multiculturalism failure which it is.
What else is “two way road” but attempt to demand appeasement from Finns? It is little “better” than your average “You must respect my foreigner culture”-crap, but it is still attempt to demand that Finns must adjust to you. Now you are just trying to trade that you will respect one of our traditions, in our society, in exchange for us to replace part of our culture with part of your.

Idiot, Finnish culture is not for sale! We do NOT barter pieces of it with foreigners to make you lazy asses more comfortable.

Perhaps you do, perhaps you are spineless and lack pride in your culture and are willing to commodity to trade. We are not spineless. We do not lack pride.

-Do you know the law and rights of other in Finland? It appears that you are very much in the dark about it.

Yes, I do. And I see foreigners treated equally. They are “no speak, no behave”-idiots, who are then stunned when they are treated like “no speak, no behave”-idiots. They expect us Finns to bend over backwards to appease you.
In essence, you demand preferential treatment. You refuse to accept that to be able to get somewhere as easily as Finns, you have to learn to do as Finns do.

You need to learn the language, because someone who cannot communicate with 90+% of people around them are worthless to employers. You need to learn how things are done, because if you can’t get along with 90+% of people without always causing cultural chafing you are again worthless.

But you idiots do not want to go through the effort. You come up with this multicultural stupidity and demand appeasement.

Some of these so-called “idiots” bring their special flavor. One of the things I don’t like to do is sensor people. I have, however, had to moderate and omit a lot of comments that I considered offensive.

Of course 🙂 I am all for freedom of speech, something that seems to be slipping here in Finland with recent issues over internet sensorship. But would be interesting to have a discussion like this in person away from the internet. When having to look someone in the face and take part in live debate, I wonder how many posters would moderate their opinions or not take part at all.

Do you know Mämmi? This black stuff Finns eat during Easter. Read about the origins of it 🙂

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4mmi#History

http://www.adressit.com/ulkomaalaislaki

And reply from foreigner

http://www.ilkka.fi/Article.jsp?article=388458&Title=Pakolaisasiantuntija+puolustaa+Thorsin+ulkomaalaislakia

RRACISM!

Thats how it goes, whatever you say against something what has to do with foreigners you get racist/nazi/xenophobic etc yelled to you. That is multuculturalism what we see, that has nothing to do with normal migration.
Its *nism like communism, facism or other other religious like shit what doesnt ask what common people wants. And our beliefs is bashed by greenred who currently are noisy part in news.

Like you have accused that i dont have foreign friends and havent travelled and of course i have to be young and uneducad…. Look who are most against, people who see real immigration problems and who are travelled.

There goes your “meeting helps”
There goes your “education helps”

Well education helps so they can get better salary and with more money you dont have to live with problems so its easy to say there is no problems or when youre in still in school so you dont see…

Im sick in tired that if i say that muslims believe 1500 y old pedofile and thats stupid, woman are equal, behave and respect police/ambulace/fire deparment is racist..

I can bash christianity, finnish culture and white heterosexual male, all others i get some stamp on me.
Thats not right, if minority has bad habits i will tell about those. And if your multiculturalism is bad i will tell it.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test i got
Economic Left/Right: -4.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.21

Thats near of Gandhi.

Terveisin phobinen natsi ja rasisti….

PS: Please give to me real data about richness.

By the way, about your comment how “your culture” supports dissent.

Well, in that case it is no wonder that Argentina is such pathetic piece of land.
You have had that land all for yourself to dissent over from 1816.

And behold!

You have almost 10 times the land area (330 000 vs 2 770 000)
You have eight times the population (5 million vs 40 million)
Net migration rate of ZERO compared to 0,73 for Finland. (If multiculturalism is so good… Why Argentina is so undesired target for immigration… )
Hell you are way ahead of us in infant mortality though! Almost four times as much.
(11 vs 3,5 for Finland)
Seven times the HIV/AIDS prevalence. (0,7 Agry vs >0,1 Finns)
Well, at least you are saving in something. Education that is. 3,8% from GDP vs 6,4% for Finland.

Well, fortunately you guys have lots of natural resources. 100 years ago you guys were one of the richest countries in the world. And multiculturalism has further enriched you, leading to 60% of Argentinians being below poverty line in the nineties! But who cares about material wealth when you have MULTICULTURALISM!

Not Argentinians. With your 526 billion USD GDP (2007) against pitiful 188 we have here in Finland you appear to be in good position though.
Until we look what it means with your huge population…
As a result, Argentina has 13100 USD GDP per capita.
Greedy and evil Finns dare to almost triple that, to 36 000 USD.

Which means that (2007 again) 8,7% of Argentinians were without job. Finland has to take second place with 6,7%.

Because of that, multiculturally enriched Argentina has come to conclusion that making positive budget is stupidity.
Resulting in following situation:
revenues: $48.99 billion
expenditures: $61.23 billion (2007 est.)

Gosh.. It is good thing you are so enriched by multiculturalism, else that might appear to be pitiful number. Considering that tiny Finland with it’s evil monocultural society and unwashed barbarian natives had these numbers:
revenues: $62.02 billion
expenditures: $58.16 billion (2007)

We actually could have balanced your budget… Not bad for monocultural racist society which is not enriched by multiculturalism.

But hey, at least you can still loan money. You are only in debt for 51% of your GDP. Finns have some way to go with 35%.

But fortunately there is always inflation, in which Argentina has progressed to enviable level of 8,8% (officially, actual might be double that). Finns have so much to learn with 2,5%. What do you mean inflation is not good?

But there is shining light in Argentina too. You only have 135 billion external debt. Finland has to struggle with it’s 270 billions for a while longer. Then again, negative numbers at end of budget are rarely good for paying debts…

And because there are only 42 television broadcast stations and 444 repeaters, compared to 120 and 431 for Finland which has smaller country… Argentinians are not slaves of television! And they still enjoy the analogue output, unlike poor Finns who were one of the first nations in the world to switch to digital.

Well, this is odd… Argentina with huge coastline and so forth should be great maritime power. But you guys only have merchant marine of half the size of Finnish. 48 vs 96. But at least you have 5 times the petroleum tankers. It should be some console considering most of economy is built around that. Finns have 24 times RORO capability though, might have something to do with exporting technology and machinery instead of oil and wheat.

I can SO see why Finland should learn from Argentina.

You guys have achieved SO much more in 200 years than we have in less than 100.

No, seriously. You are so advanced and stable country with no dictators or such. We really should learn from country so vastly superior to ours.

Finland: 270 billion debts / 5 million inhabitants = 54.000 per person
Argentina: 135 billion debts / 40 million inhabitants = 3.375 per person

Well-beeing build on debts 🙂

3rd insult is not racist, neekeri is just a black man, nothing to do with racism and nothing to do with view of them. Arent there great bald or hörökorva people? (for bald check kekkonen).

That was to prove your racism and i did it, you think black people are somehow inferior and need more protection than bald or hörökorva people. They are humans like all of us and have change to prove theyre worth like i had i to do even im white heterosexual male.

Im lapp and i dont see any racism or discrimination if someone call me lapp. Most of people know where im from when i open my mouth but thats not problem. We laugh on stereotypes and ridicule those, i tell that my igloo melted so i had to move south. Like once black man worked with us and said “ei tämä ole mustankaan miehen hommaa” and thats from “ei ole valkoisen miehen hommaa” what is to point slavery when white didnt have to do hard work. He wasnt bigot like you and he had sense of humour, finnish humour. Or like one russian said “perkele, ryssä ryssi” when he did mistake. Same russian told me he is 11th russian 🙂

As long there is over protected minorities there cant be equality.

-There isn’t such a thing as advanced and backwards cultures.

Ok, ill kill and cook you and eat you. thats part of some cultures. Is that ok? Your skull makes good decoration.

Of course we are wonderful, that’s why we are here and you are still at the same place where you have been your whole live because you are afraid to learn something new, goat brain!

“Neekeri” according to Sanakirja.org:
afrikkalaisperäisestä tummaihoisesta henkilöstä käytetty hieman vanhahtava sana. Sanaa pidetään nykyään yleisesti epäkorrektina tai halventavana, vaikka monet käyttävätkin sitä yhä.
And from Wikipedia:
In Finland, neekeri used to be considered a neutral term for black people, but the term has gradually fell out of favor through the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Today the neutral term to define a black person is musta (literally “black”). There is a Finnish pastry traditionally called Neekerinsuukko (literally “negro’s kiss”). Due to its arguably offensive character, the name has fallen out of use.

“You generalize to much. For most people religion is just tradition and you find extremist on every part of the spectra. Who was shaking hands with the islamic political party? Finnish politicians. The Muslims I know are scared of this party.”

Of course they were shaking hands because if they werent they would be racists and islamophopics…

Tell them to say that a loud and tell them to stop harassing our traditions. Tell them to stop asking freedoms like separate swimming time. I know most of this because of stupid greenred understanders like enrique but only immigrants themself have real power to stop it without being branded nazis.

And of course i generalize because thats how you look masses. There is no individual in masses, just statistics.

There is little cartoon to enrique http://www.kolumbus.fi/jik/mku1.htm and something to think too http://hommaforum.org/index.php?topic=452.0

And about that word neekeri, its not racists. Neekerinpusu and lakupekka arent racists. Those sweets made connection to me that neekeri is good. Racism? That dropped when Illman and friends started to yell racism on those, they have to be bad if they cant stand a sweet.

And as one said.

Touhussa pitää toisaalta käyttää myös järkeä. Onko huumori nyt sitten todellista rasismia? No, kai se voi olla. Jos vitsailee tyhmistä miehistä, se on miesvihaa. Jos vitsailee blondeista ja bruneteista, se on sovinismia ja naisvihaa. Jos vitsailee uskovaisista, se on ties mitä uskonnollista vainoa ja sortoa. Jos vitsailee vanhuksista, se on ikäsyrjintää. Jos vitsailee etnisyydestä tai rodusta, se on rasismia… Eih… tai sitten kaiken voisi ottaa huumorilla, koska se on nimenomaan huumoria, vetämättä hernettä poikittain nenuliin.

Culture:
1A particular society at a particular time and place
2The tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social group
3All the knowledge and values shared by a society
4(biology) the growing of microorganisms in a nutrient medium (such as gelatin or agar)
5The attitudes and behavior that are characteristic of a particular social group or organization
===============================================================
To 1) time is moving and when I come her the town had only 3 Pizzerias and only in Stockmann you could buy chili and it was in 2 gram packages. Now you can buy by kilos
To 2) I don’t think that all Fins have the same taste in food, music, clothing or have the same manners
To 3)I think this is very global. Get a education, a good job, get married have children, own a car and a house and don’t lie or steal or at least don’t get caught in it
To 5) Could depend on the weather. In more sunny places people tend to be more social and more positive and in more darker and colder places people drink more alcohol, are more depressed and are less social unless you are Irish and live in Irland
=====================================================
There are many factors that can and do influence mentality and there are local differences. Differences between sub groups and social classes. Much depends on upbringing and on the individual itself.
Peoples opinion tended to be formed by local events and the local media but our food is very international, our music, the films we watch, the news are from around the world ( filtered by the local stations )
The European enlightenment was inspired by Greek philosophers, mathematicians and historians. So even the hundreds of years back peoples mind were influenced by other people from a different nation and on top of that by people who were dead since 2000 years.

-What is the use of nationalism if it only fills you with a lot of hot air and encourages you to pick on people that are weaker than you?

Weaker? may i laugh? They have allmighty racism card what is played in every turn. And parts of goverment playing with them be reason of why they got offended whatever. Did you know that iirc 2 or 3 of 6 polices interviewed didnt even think that finn can be target of racists attack?

And i have seen succesfull immigrants but they didnt hide in their communities with racism card.

You may forget that we were oppressed for millennium and still partly are, do you think we really look with good eye for rise of some groups wanting something over what we have? I think we will get rid of this swedish apartheid in this decade and we dont need new one called multiculturalism.
Did you know most prone to multiculturalism are communists who were behind of suomettuminen.

-“Why do you always get personal? Can´t you debate an issue without insulting the other person? Certainly the question can be turned around, placed also sideways, upside down etc!..”

Because you insult me, my heritage and my family with every single time you utter new like of bullshit about Finnish culture and how it must this or that because you, the great holy foreigner, deem it better.

-“National culture is a sort of artificial flavoring on top of culture, which is what people use to function in society. Culture changes. What is surprising about your statement is that you believe that you don´t have to even take into consideration that other peoples from diverse backgrounds live in this country, but then are so concerned about indigenous cultures. I don´t get it.”

There is nothing artificial in national culture. Apparently your thick head still has not grasped that this nation is built by FINNS for FINNS and according to FINNISH culture. Ergo, national culture and Finnish culture are one and same. It is not on top of anything, it IS anything and everything here.

This is not Argentina or USA where native culture is wiped out and replaced with variety of bits and pieces from dozens of cultures. There your words might ring true, but here they do not.

As for culture changing. Absolutely! Finnish culture has changed and will change. But according to FINNISH wants. Not your foreign desires. I do not care what you think would be better for Finnish culture, you are not Finn so you do not get to “vote”. We do not barter our culture, you do not get right to demand anything from us if you learn to respect one piece of our culture.

And I am concerned for indigenous cultures. That indeed includes FINNISH culture. Foreigners have homeland where they can practice their culture. Do not bring your culture and try to push away our culture in OUR homeland.

If you argentinians were being pushed by for example indians in Argentina, trying to force Indian culture to replace Argentinian. I would defend you against Indians. But you are not, most likely because nobody really wants to live in multicultural “heaven” that is Argentina. So most people try to leave it, not enter it.

-“I wonder what the Finnish foreign investment department would think of that statement. Should it be: Finland a GREAT place to invest or Finland: love it or leave it!”

How about “Finland, stable and prosperous place to invest. No internal problems, no race riots, low crime and low corruption.”

Besides, investors do not move with their investments, idiot. They live in Monaco or another tax paradise and just invest money. Their money has no culture. It is just money.

If they send in workers, those workers do not have any special rights to demand cultural appeasement. They live in this culture, according to rules of this culture.
Again, we do not barter with our culture and society. You cannot buy right to change our culture with money or your own cultural concessions.

Our way or highway is good and working solution. It keeps society stable when everyone is on same page on what is ok and what is not.

-“I don’t have to prove anything. Cultures are complex and there are many types of people that live in this country with varying lifestyles. Society is diverse it does not fit a grammar school oral examination of Finland that begins: Finland is located zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Its population is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Those are only facts but do not give the true picture of our diverse society.”

FACTS ARE TRUTH. IF IT IS NOT FACT, IT IS FICTION. SO GIVE ME FACTS!!!
Idiot. Finns are over 90% of population, any professor you would go to would tell you that there is one dominant culture in Finland. Finnish culture.

Every other older culture, jewish, tatar, sami and swedish, are subject to this culture.
Finland is not diverse, idiot.

To be diverse, other cultures but Finnish would have to actually pick up in the radar. They do not. Your stupidity is same as you claiming that because you found one brown ball in huge pile of white balls, it is somehow diverse pile of balls.

-“They send their money and MANAGE the company with personnel and create a corporate culture that is conducive to profit. ”

They hire managers, who only deal with handful of NATIVE managers (assuming first one was not like that) who then handle things. And again, they do not care what kind of cultural requirements there are in that society. Those are problems for workers. And when workers are natives, there is no problem.

When they import worker from abroad, it is problem of that worker to survive in the world outside corporation. Corporations do not go around demanding cultures to change, they work IN the local culture.

-“You continue to have a very lowly view of others who are not like you. You should work on this. People do make an effort to integrate. Some succeed while other do not. People are taught tolerance in Finnish schools but some embrace it while others throw it in the trash can of society. People are different, like societies.”

I have very low view of people who go to different country, refuse to learn local language and culture, respect those two, and then start whining that natives are racist for not bending over backwards to appease foreign idiots whims.

Societies built on this bullshit that every culture is equal are ones that are least stable. I like my society stable.

This thing is going wrong. Immigrants should be taught to respect FINNISH culture and way of life. That would give good start for interaction.

I have no intention to respect any culture or cultures which immigrate to Finland and become for example source of rapists into this nice, peaceful and stable society.

-“Finns are not a lost “tribe” living in the Deep North with unique anthropolgical traits.”

If we look europe we are, i would like to see russia in this map too. Couldt find map where “finns swim alone in gene pool”

“-”It would be as well Somalia’s national hymn, it’s only imaginaton about what is Finland in this song. ”

Ever thought that it is simphony created by Finn, for Finns. And that it draws upon Finnish culture to create it. And that to Finns it acts as piece of the foundation for our identity.”

Yeah I know but I did not meant that. Well, if you just heard the song “Finlandia” without you don’t know nothing about this song history, how you can connect this song to Finland? There’s no way.

”As for “lost tribe”. We are genetically set apart from basically all our neighbours. There has been VERY minor interaction between Finns and people of surrounding regions, but it has been minimal. That is what has made many geneticists so interested about Finns. Our genetic code is very close to what it was when our ancestors came to this country. It has changed very little because there has been very little interaction with other societies around us.

Finns are tribe of it’s own. We have our own language, our own culture. Today we have our own country too. And our genetics are clearly set apart from dominant genes surrounding us.”

When we walk around Saimaa, we might do well to see the dozens of rock art locations, some made well over 10,000 years ago. These were not made by ”Finns” in todays sense, indeed Sami and Finn did not exist as distinctly separate entities at the time. As for Finns, if you mean Karelians, Tavastians, Ingrians, Ostrobothnians…they were seperate tribes, who never considered themselves as Finns, not until they were branded as such in the 14th Century or later. The ”Finnish” language was standardized less than 150 years ago. So much for the single tribe theory.
The Sami are distant relations of Finns, it doesnt take a Linguistics or Genetics expert to work that out.
Russia, Estonia and Latvia contain well over half of the Baltic Finnic languages spoken today, or vestiges of those that were not wiped off the map by Stalin. The single tribe theory does not stick, and I am sick and tired of self styled Nationalists citing this outdated, disproven crap over and over again.

Lets hope my friend!:)

The ‘racists’ here are just ignorant fools. They see themselves as patriots. You cant blame an inexperienced, uneducated person of being a racist, education and contact with foreigners will usually fix that. It’s the informed who choose to ignore the truth and fan the flames, they are the racists.

Anyway, all have a good weekend!

Those laws are against multiculturalism because multiculturalism isnt about equality but for separation and segregation.

intternetnetsi Says:
March 10, 2009 at 6:33 pm
….
So you moved back to finland?

kamoo sä oot ihan pihalla! 🙂 keep wishing

Sweden is quiet and peaceful, everything else is lie!
Or is it? http://sydsvenskan.se/malmo/article421610/Stenkastning-vid-brand-i-Rosengard.html