What Finland’s immigration policy lacks

by , under All categories, Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

If we look at the dismal amount of immigrants and refugees as well as high unemployment one can reach only one conclusion: a policy that has failed miserably. Certainly progress has been made: the number of immigrants has risen albeit slowly to  143,256 today from 12,670 in 1981, while unemployment has come down officially from 53% in 1994 to over 20%.

One of the biggest failures of our immigration policy is that it is really not an immigration policy at all but looks like a poorly assembled hall where newcomers are given a bit of schooling in the Finnish langauge and culture and then required to face the brave new world by getting a job.

The crux of the matter is that we are going to have to do a much better job if we want labor immigrants to fill jobs left by our ever-growing number of pensioners. One of the first steps in this direction is to offer more than a wham-bang-thank-you-mam approach to immigration.

Immigration is a powerful social force that can work to a society’s favor if it is done correctly. The basic starting point for a successful immigration policy is in the hands of the host society. If there is rejection, ignorance, bigotry and lack of opportunities such a policy will fail as it has today.

Another important aspect of a successful immigration policy is that it must have something more than the wham-bang in order to succeed. Those same values that unite Finns and make them proud of their society should rub off on immigrants.

What are these values? They are those in our laws and our compassion and suffering that we faced as a nation. It is in solidarity and opportunity – a real sense of community where we live together for the common good. The pathway to incorporation into Finnish society should be much faster than today.

Even though these types of values may sound as if they were from some imaginary place, it is the only way towards a successful immigration policy and sheds light why our integration policy has failed despite its good intentions. Offering no dreams and hopes to newcomers and marginalizing them is sowing the seeds of pesent and future discord.

What kind of a society are we offering newcomers if we jealously guard our dreams to ourselves?

  1. Tiwaz

    First of all…

    Why it is dismal that there are very, very few immigrants in Finland? Since when has obtaining maximum possible amount of immigrants become some kind of self serving purpose for existence of nation?

    If there are no immigrants, there are no immigrants. Who gives a damn?

    -“Immigration is a powerful social force that can work to a society’s favor if it is done correctly. The basic starting point for a successful immigration policy is in the hands of the host society. If there is rejection, ignorance, bigotry and lack of opportunities such a policy will fail as it has today.”

    And if immigrants are not made to adjust to society on terms of the society, immigration is extremely destructive force which divides the society and destroys the very solidarity and sense of community.

    -“What are these values? They are those in our laws and our compassion and suffering that we faced as a nation. It is in solidarity and opportunity – a real sense of community where we live together for the common good. The pathway to incorporation into Finnish society should be much faster than today.”

    These values are essentially…
    Finnish culture!

    So issue again is that immigrants are not made to accept that in Finland, it’s Finnish way or the highway.

    You cannot have sense of community AND multiculturalism. They are mutually exclusive.

    I agree that Finnish immigration policy is a failure.
    It must be changed, but real needed change is not what you want. Real needed change is that what DeTant called “disco money” will be removed. Refugee and immigrant social security cut to absolute minimum to discourage leeching the system.

    And beating around the bush on cultural issue must end as well. Each refugee and immigrant must have it made clear that Finland is functional society with certain principles founded on Finnish cultural tradition.

    Failure to learn these WILL have huge negative impact on their possibility to succeed in Finland.

    Finland does not need immigrants, Finland needs productive immigrants. And above those, Finland needs JOBS. Importing immigrants to do jobs which do not exist is idiotic. Importing immigrants for jobs who have no required skills to do the job is idiotic.
    Neither comes off with net gain for Finland except in crime statistics.

    Immigration should be about immigrants fulfilling needs Finland has, not Finland trying to fulfill needs of immigrants who want to come here.

    • Enrique

      –Why it is dismal that there are very, very few immigrants in Finland? Since when has obtaining maximum possible amount of immigrants become some kind of self serving purpose for existence of nation?

      It refutes the claim that there are hordes of people trying to come here. In fact, I believe, there are few takers. If a labor immigrant comes to Europe, where would he go? Finland or Germany? Finland or England?

      –And if immigrants are not made to adjust to society on terms of the society, immigration is extremely destructive force which divides the society and destroys the very solidarity and sense of community.

      I believe that in order to make immigration work you have to have an effective program with VALUES. What does our society offer in the way of values? I think this is very important and it appears we are pretty much in the dark about this.

    • Enrique

      –Immigration should be about immigrants fulfilling needs Finland has, not Finland trying to fulfill needs of immigrants who want to come here.

      This is were we disagree. You sound like an owner of a store who says that you are always right and that clients should adapt to you. It does not work that way, even when we speak of immigration.

  2. foreigner

    -an owner of a store who says that you are always right and that clients should adapt to you. It does not work that way, even when we speak of immigration.

    Owners of the stores provide a preferential treatment. Certain clients enjoy selective treatments over other clients. that’s the reality and does therefore hold good in immigration matters also. All immigrants aren’t of same category. Same amount of efforts shouldn’t be put to attract a toilet cleaner as much as is put to attract a skilled immigrants (doctors, engineers etc.) Why we should be welcome to all kinds of immigrants is beyond me.

    • Enrique

      Hi foreigner, your answer shows your poor demeanour. Why should we accept all type of Finns from toilet cleaners to skilled workers? Because all the jobs done in society are important. If you consider yourself an “educated person” you have not learned one of the most important matters of life which a Finnish or foreign “toilet clearner” probably has: respect and compassion for others.

  3. Tiwaz

    -“It refutes the claim that there are hordes of people trying to come here. In fact, I believe, there are few takers. If a labor immigrant comes to Europe, where would he go? Finland or Germany? Finland or England?”

    Considering that we are net RECEIVER.

    We have TWICE the number of people coming in as opposed to people going out. So you are refuting nothing! You clearly do not even have any idea what you are talking about.

    Yes, England and Germany get more immigrants. Cry me a river! I again as if getting immigrants is some kind of value in itself? It ISN’T and should not be treated as one.

    In fact, I want to see LESS immigration to Finland if that leads to BETTER immigrants.

    You again talk out of your ass, which we can see when we read your post. “I believe”…

    IMMIGRATION IS NOT BUSINESS OF BELIEF BUT FACTS!

    Fact is that Finland has far more people wanting in than out.
    Fact is that immigrants are way overrepresented in crime statistics.
    Fact is that multiculturalism is a failure.

    Stop running on belief and start working with facts. Denial of facts is not healthy for you or Finland.

    You cannot even say that you work on belief because facts are not available. Google a bit and Finnish government sites will pile fact upon fact on you.

    -“I believe that in order to make immigration work you have to have an effective program with VALUES. What does our society offer in the way of values? I think this is very important and it appears we are pretty much in the dark about this.”

    It offers Finnish values which hold hard work and honesty very high. As opposed for example Greece where corruption and dishonesty are the key words.

    And we see where this leads.

    -“This is were we disagree. You sound like an owner of a store who says that you are always right and that clients should adapt to you. It does not work that way, even when we speak of immigration.”

    And if I am right then I am right. And as store owner I HAVE right to tell customer to fuck off if I do not like the way they behave in my store. After all, it is MY store. And in my store, you obey MY rules.

    Ever heard of bouncers at bars? Bars are stores of one type and when people act badly, they are thrown out. Or not permitted in.

    -“Hi foreigner, your answer shows your poor demeanour. Why should we accept all type of Finns from toilet cleaners to skilled workers? Because all the jobs done in society are important. If you consider yourself an “educated person” you have not learned one of the most important matters of life which a Finnish or foreign “toilet clearner” probably has: respect and compassion for others.”

    Here you again show how logic escapes you. We do not accept all kinds of Finns to Finland, Finns already ARE in Finland. They are natives, citizens. Born to that position.

    They are not immigrants. So your pathetic strawman argument is full of shit.

    We do not need foreign toilet cleaners. Simple jobs without need for skills are easily filled by others. Importing some guy from third world to clean toilets while bringing in 20 of their “familymembers” as well is not good for Finland.

  4. foreigner

    Hi foreigner, your answer shows your poor demeanour. Why should we accept all type of Finns from toilet cleaners to skilled workers? Because all the jobs done in society are important. If you consider yourself an “educated person” you have not learned one of the most important matters of life which a Finnish or foreign “toilet clearner” probably has: respect and compassion for others.

    Finnish or foreign toilet cleaners probably has: respect and compassion for others. top notch qualified probably don’t have respect and compassion? I don’t get your point.

    -Finland needs skilled manpower where there is a shortage. Top notch leaves for england, not finland… in your own words. Finland should strive to attract those top notch… not the toilet cleaners. I have worked as a toilet cleaner…. who cares but does Finland need such low skilled people. If it needs manpower.. it’s the highly skilled ones!

    now back to your article…. immigrantion policy has failed because Finland has time and again been the recipient of low-skilled immigrants who don’t fit in the job market.

    • Enrique

      –now back to your article…. immigrantion policy has failed because Finland has time and again been the recipient of low-skilled immigrants who don’t fit in the job market.

      Why haven’t skilled workers made it to Finland in greater numbers? Answering this question could reveal a lot about the present situation. Could you please forward me the link or study that states that most immigrants in Finland are unskilled.

      Sorry if I misunderstood you.

  5. foreigner

    Why haven’t skilled workers made it to Finland in greater numbers? Answering this question could reveal a lot about the present situation. Could you please forward me the link or study that states that most immigrants in Finland are unskilled.

    Sorry if I misunderstood you.

    – Your question should itself satisfy your query, eh?

    • Enrique

      – Your question should itself satisfy your query, eh?

      My point is that due to a lack of a clear immigration policy and, more important, our reception needs some improvement. Apart from finding a place in this society, it is important that we offer new immigrants (labor and otherwise) something else like our values and way of life. This is especially important in my opinion. It is not a wham-bang-thank-you-mam situation.

    • Enrique

      –one more thing…. when we talk about skilled workers, we should consider the market requirement also.

      True. However, if we have people living legally as residents or applying for jobs from elsewhere in the EU then we have to abide by fair employment practices and equal opportunities. Or do you think that irrespective of our EU membership we should first and foremost hire Finns and then maybe non-Finns? That would be discrimination and something illegal.
      Look at the agricultural policy of Finland before we became EU members in 1995. All they were doing was keeping prices high by lack of competition to defend their interests.
      Competition is a good matter as long as it doesn’t turn companies into monopolies and oligopolies.

  6. Tony Garcia

    “Why haven’t skilled workers made it to Finland in greater numbers?”

    The fact that Finland is having problems attracting high skilled workers is not excuse for bringing in welfare buns and fire-breading Muslims. In doing so we are not just no solving the labour shortage problem but also creating another one.

    However…

    As we have seen in previous conversations, the labour shortage problem is not the main concern among multiculturalists, but change the ethnic and cultural make up of this country. And for that goal welfare buns and, in particularly, fire-breading Muslims are perfect for the job.

  7. Tony Garcia

    “True. However, if we have people living legally as residents or applying for jobs from elsewhere in the EU then we have to abide by fair employment practices and equal opportunities.”

    The problem with the multicultural left is not that they lie, because to tell a lie you have to know that what you’re saying is not true. I prefer a liar than a sincere person who doesn’t tell the truth. Lying is a character flaw and it can be corrected, but when you believe in the untruth, then there is no hope.

    So no matter how much evidence is presented here that foreigners do have a fair chance, and that the failure of many is nothing but result of their own inability to prevail, it won’t matter.

    The multicultural left will always live in their bubble, this fairytale land, where they spend most of the time reading social thinkers (for example – those who used to say that communism was a good idea), and completely oblivious to the real world around them. Admiring ideologies and concepts that work so well on books and essays, but completely fails when put into practice.

    For me, they truly believe that one day we will see Westerns, Asians and Africans holding hands in the Helsinki main square and singing…

    “We are the world… We are the children…”

    • Enrique

      –The problem with the multicultural left is not that they lie, because to tell a lie you have to know that what you’re saying is not true. I prefer a liar than a sincere person who doesn’t tell the truth. Lying is a character flaw and it can be corrected, but when you believe in the untruth, then there is no hope.

      Who is the “multicutlural left” and why are you accusing me of “lying” (a pretty strong word) if all that I am telling you is in the law. Why, being in favor of civil rights that are enshrined in our constitution and laws makes you “multicultural left” and a “liar” is beyond.

      Attack me with examples and arguments: not with political catchwords.

    • Enrique

      Tony, if we are sincere, the “multicultural left” is a term created by the “monocultural right.” See how ridiculous it is? After the Berlin Wall fell in 1989 and the Soviet Union in 1991, the term “left” and “right” have taken on new meaning. Possibly these two polar political terms could mean in the future “anti-capitalist” and “capitalist.” If you ask me, I think events after September 2008 were similar to what caused the fall of Communism in the Soviet Union in August 1991. More people will question capitalism as a system because it does not serve their interests. I always smile cynically when large multinational companies claim what a big blow “foreign investment confidence” has suffered in the region. They could ask the question in this fashion as well: “Public confidence in foreign investors has eroded.” As you can see, Tony, it is a game of words. However, poverty, economic disaster and squalor are not.

  8. Tony Garcia

    Sorry my dear friend, if I wasn’t clear enough, let me try to explain it again…

    I didn’t call you or anyone else a liar, simple because I don’t believe you are such. As I wrote, to tell a lie you must know that what you are telling is not true, with is not your case. You keep saying that immigrants don’t have a fair chance in Finland with is not true, however you do believe in it, what makes you not a liar even when making this untrue statement.

    What is a Multicultural-leftist? Someone who believes that multiculturalism is a good idea, and, in most of cases, also prefers liberal (left) values instead of conservative (right) ones.

    I’m not attaching you, never have, never will. I never attach people, only ideas and ideologies. When you attach the person that means that you don’t have arguments against what he/she is saying, and so far I’m pretty confident about my arguments against multiculturalism.

    I hope I have made myself clear now…

  9. Linda

    Foreigner,

    FYI, some of the toilet cleaners or people that do the doggy jobs are skilled immigrants. The problem is, a)they can not land themselves a decent job b) if they do, they will constantly be harrassed by their collegues if they perform better than them and c) the employer does not appreciate their input, or if he does, he is afraid to say it out loud not to offend others in the team. In my experience, in Finland you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Don’t ever underestimate the person that is serving you, he might know more than you do…

    Tiwaz: Finland might have been an honest country at one point, but, I’ve dealt with many Finns and you can not put honesty and man kind including Finns in the same sentence, especially when it comes to money. You have to stop deceiving yourself, Finns are no different from others you call foreigners. If you were put in the same position, you will behave worse.

    • Enrique

      Hi Linda, very interesting comments. It certainly is one way to look at discrimination at the job place.

      The idea that “Finns are honest” is a stereotype. Probably the question should be to whom Finns tend to be more honest (Finns or with immigrants). When i moved to Finland a long time ago, I naively thought that all Finns were honest. I was in for a big surprise!

    • Enrique

      –Today, Finland receives far more people than leaves.

      Yes, you are right. I think more people started to move to Finland than left the country during the 1990s. Before that, more left than came. However, there are more Finns living abroad than foreigners living in Finland.

  10. Tiwaz

    -“FYI, some of the toilet cleaners or people that do the doggy jobs are skilled immigrants.”

    By what definition of skilled? Are their qualifications recognized in Finland?

    Having doctorate from University of Everything And More from Arsescratch Alabama is not sign of skilled worker even if it was esteemed school of learning.

    Not speaking Finnish is not sign of skilled worker in Finland, as communicating skills are essential for being skilled.

    -“The problem is, a)they can not land themselves a decent job”

    Because they are NOT skilled. Being skilled by definition of your native land is irrelevant, in Finland being skilled by Finnish definition is relevant.

    WAKE UP DOROTHY! NO LONGER IN KANSAS!

    -“b) if they do, they will constantly be harrassed by their collegues if they perform better than them and”

    Which is load of BS. Most of the time they will be harassed because they are not bothering to play by same work rules.

    Do you have even faintest idea how frustrating and slow it is to fix everything after some asshole insists on doing things “their way”?

    There are some Finns who do it, yes, but it is dominant issue of foreigners who cannot grasp that in Finland, things are done this way because it keeps everyone on the same page.

    Instead you get someone doing their work the “polish way” or “hubbabubban way” and then others have to fix it up.

    -“c) the employer does not appreciate their input, or if he does, he is afraid to say it out loud not to offend others in the team.”

    Could it be because input might be idiotic when put into Finnish cultural context?

    Again you fail to grasp that you have to first understand how and why things are done. Many foreigners never bother to make this leap of understanding.

    Because of this, much of foreigner input is flat out bad because it does not fit into existing framework.

    -“In my experience, in Finland you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Don’t ever underestimate the person that is serving you, he might know more than you do…”

    Could it be because you never bothered to learn to understand Finns? You just walk blindfolded and do thing like you would at home and expect it to work.

    It is same as buying a diesel car and filling it up with gasoline because that is how you did in the past, failing to grasp that things have changed.

    Again, common foreigner issue.

    If that guy serving me does not know how to put their knowledge into practical function, he is far worse worker than I am.

    Knowledge is less relevant than understanding how to use it.

    -“Finland might have been an honest country at one point, but, I’ve dealt with many Finns and you can not put honesty and man kind including Finns in the same sentence, especially when it comes to money. You have to stop deceiving yourself, Finns are no different from others you call foreigners. If you were put in the same position, you will behave worse.”

    Yes, Finns are so dishonest that we for example pay our taxes. Like Greek do. No wait…

    Reality is that with Finns you are far more likely to get honest answer than with foreigner.

    Even if foreigner is not lying flat out, they tend to beat around the bush and avoid giving direct answer.

  11. Linda

    Hi there,

    Tiwaz: I have met foreigners that have a Phd, Msc and Bsc and name it, all acquired in Finland. They studied in Finnish, in TKK, Viiki Bio Center and Helsinki University and they excell in their proffesions. Therefore, they actually fit your idea of skilled proffesionals. But they still could not find a job, therefore, they had to move out and get a job elsewhere in Europe.

    The saddest thing is, Finland spends a lot of money training them and they are not given a chance to contribute – pay their debt to society… which they would gladly have done.

    “Yes, Finns are so dishonest that we for example pay our taxes. Like Greek do. No wait…”
    Well, unlike you I don’t want to generalise, but some Finns also try thier best to cheat on taxes as well. If you are an employee, it is difficult to cheat on your taxes, since your employer is the one that withholds your tax. However, self employed Finns can and do cheat on taxes like many people in other countries do, I have worked as an accountant for several years in Finland and I know a thing or two when it comes to taxes.

    “Reality is that with Finns you are far more likely to get honest answer than with foreigner.”

    Don’t generalise Finns, they are all different. Some are honest, fair, intelligent and really productive, but you also have finns that are completly the opposite. At the end of the day, they are humanbeings. Finns don’t possess any uniquely significant characteristic that others lack except for some perceived cultural threats that are not significant.

    “Do you have even faintest idea how frustrating and slow it is to fix everything after some asshole insists on doing things “their way”?”

    Indeed I do, I did it today…not that the person is an idiot but he/she have some weaknesses inregards to certain tasks. I take my time and help out, it is called working in a team. We all don’t excell in everything. BTW, the person is a Finn.

  12. Tiwaz

    -“Tiwaz: I have met foreigners that have a Phd, Msc and Bsc and name it, all acquired in Finland. They studied in Finnish, in TKK, Viiki Bio Center and Helsinki University and they excell in their proffesions. Therefore, they actually fit your idea of skilled proffesionals. But they still could not find a job, therefore, they had to move out and get a job elsewhere in Europe.”

    And while studying, had they bothered to learn Finnish?
    If their PhD, which I tend to associate with “soft” studies (as in humanist stuff) is not for technical field, odds of finding a job without speaking Finnish are slim to none.

    You NEED to communicate with Finns in Finland, and Finns prefer speaking Finnish.

    Saddest thing is that foreigners think that because Finns speak English by and large, it would mean that you can just like that replace Finnish with English. You can’t. Employer needs to serve the customer, and that means they have to serve the customer in the way customer prefers.

    And everyone prefers speaking their native language.

    -“Well, unlike you I don’t want to generalise, but some Finns also try thier best to cheat on taxes as well. If you are an employee, it is difficult to cheat on your taxes, since your employer is the one that withholds your tax. However, self employed Finns can and do cheat on taxes like many people in other countries do, I have worked as an accountant for several years in Finland and I know a thing or two when it comes to taxes.”

    Have you bothered to visit a restaurant in Greece and Finland? Apparently not. Until you have, how about admitting that you do not know what you talk about.

    And if you do not have time to go abroad to figure it out, there was program on this issue in television not long ago. Try to find it.

    -“Don’t generalise Finns, they are all different. Some are honest, fair, intelligent and really productive, but you also have finns that are completly the opposite. At the end of the day, they are humanbeings. Finns don’t possess any uniquely significant characteristic that others lack except for some perceived cultural threats that are not significant.”

    We are speaking of cultural concepts here. These can be averaged out for products of same culture.

    Enrique here lives in fantasy bubble that all cultures are actually just like one another. I cannot imagine what kind of blindfold he wears when he walks outside his home, but I have noticed that there are serious differences in cultures.

    Finnish honesty is product of culture where you state the issue as it is. As opposed to “polite” cultures where “maybe” means “no” and “yes” means “maybe”.

    -“Indeed I do, I did it today…not that the person is an idiot but he/she have some weaknesses inregards to certain tasks. I take my time and help out, it is called working in a team. We all don’t excell in everything. BTW, the person is a Finn.”

    We are not talking about weakness, but stubborn idiocy produced by multiculturalist stupidity that “my way is just as good as your way”.

    I am engineer, I do project work for living.
    Project work is different kind of animal, it requires commonly multiple people working on issues which are related and have strong dependencies.

    This is where it is essential that nobody starts going solo and doing stuff “their way” because it ends up as shitty mess. With Finns, it is bad enough with everyone having their own personal quirks.

    With foreigner who has embraced multiculturalist attitude, it is a fucking nightmare.

  13. xyz

    yeah and Finland is the only country where they have project work 🙂

    I dont prefer speaking my own language that’s why I work abroad. Its fun working with different nationalities in English. Maybe you should try it out once in your life.

  14. Tiwaz

    Finland is only country I am concerned of.

    If people abroad want to fuck up their nations, I do not give a crap.

    As for speaking native language. Your call not to speak your native. I have done that, could do that if I chose but I prefer living in Finland.

    Abroad never felt home to me, so I came back home instead of pursuing life elsewhere.

    And now you wankers want to import that shit from abroad to my home.

    No thank you.

    • Enrique

      –If people abroad want to fuck up their nations, I do not give a crap.

      Where did you learn all this toughness, Tiwaz? People don’t want to screw up their nations (home) and many hope that others would take notice.

      –And now you wankers want to import that shit from abroad to my home.

      Monosexuals?! Defication in my home?! What are you saying? Who are you?! Check: http://arenan.yle.fi/video/847934

  15. Tiwaz

    -“Where did you learn all this toughness, Tiwaz? People don’t want to screw up their nations (home) and many hope that others would take notice.”

    From life.
    My parents gave me valuable upbringing. They taught me that you get nothing without hard work.

    That is exactly what foreigners want when coming to Finland, to get everything without having to do anything.

    They want jobs without being able to speak Finnish.
    They want jobs without having education which would be recognized in Finland.
    They want Finns to adjust to their attitudes and thinking.
    And they want it all NOW.
    Not all, of course, but many.

    As for other people not wanting to screw up their nations. Perhaps they do not want it, but apparently they do not have will to prevent it.

    Case in point, UK. It used to be great nation. Then they let their leaders start fucking up with multiculturalism and now I would not live in that island even if someone paid me to.

    They are destroying their homes by giving in to demands of immigrants. Throwing away their identity piece by piece.

    -“Monosexuals?! Defication in my home?! What are you saying? Who are you?! Check: http://arenan.yle.fi/video/847934

    What am I saying? It should be obvious. Been there, seen the “wonders” of multiculturalism and I do not want to see any of it in my home.

    But some people want to bring multiculturalism to Finland. Others whine that they can’t be here because it already is not here.

    Who am I? A Finn who has learned abroad that if it is foreign does not mean it is better.

  16. xyz

    My parents gave me valuable upbringing. They taught me that you get nothing without hard work.
    -If you are such a hard worker, why did you gave up abroad after a few months even so you speak the language and you had a job? Maybe you can think about yourself now as being an immigrant in Finland? Sounds like fun?

    They want jobs without being able to speak Finnish.
    They want jobs without having education which would be recognized in Finland.
    -Finns do the same abroad.

    What am I saying? It should be obvious. Been there, seen the “wonders” of multiculturalism and I do not want to see any of it in my home.
    -Maybe you should tell us more about what bad experience you had abroad when you lived there?

  17. Tiwaz

    -“If you are such a hard worker, why did you gave up abroad after a few months even so you speak the language and you had a job? Maybe you can think about yourself now as being an immigrant in Finland? Sounds like fun?”

    Fixed term contract and I did not like the life.
    So I did what every immigrant should do.

    I went somewhere where I felt like home, instead of demanding natives to destroy what THEY felt like home to appease my foreign ass.

    -“Finns do the same abroad.”

    So what? Give single good reason why Finland should do so even if other nations do?

    We have independent nation precisely so we can tell you foreigners to fuck off when you suggest we should do just like you do “just because”.

    -“Maybe you should tell us more about what bad experience you had abroad when you lived there?”
    In general in British isles… Let’s see..

    Hmm. Misery, crime. Destruction of social cohesion.
    Society which did not know if it was bird or fish. It tried to be both at once and failed to be either.

    Or how in USA you get glimpses of ethnic/cultural gap and gang problems when you travel. I am not stupid enough to try to go see it up close though.

    The clear lack of “us” in society which you still have in Finland thanks to shared language and culture.

  18. xyz

    So what? Give single good reason why Finland should do so even if other nations do?
    -Because those Finns who live abroad are from Finland?!? Because Finland is in the EU. If you don’t like the EU then you could maybe move to the moon? There is plenty of space and you can live there alone and talk with yourself…nobody will disturb you.

    Fixed term contract and I did not like the life.
    -Why you didn’t like life? Did you get in contact with some locals? Or did you just spend your spare time in front of your computer waiting that your contract ends?

  19. Frances Ngum

    I wish to make some comments in general about the supposed “Finnish immigration policy”.

    I totally agree with the original speaker about the wham bang thank you policy.

    Immigrants need to be taught the Finnish language in such a way that they can smoothly enter the labor market.

    Immigrants need proper job training in relevant fields.

    But most important of all the government has got to stop giving money to migrants. This so called social security is no social security at all. It is like the money you give to a beggar on the street. At the end of the day you go home and forget about the beggar. You do not know anything about this beggar (and most of the time you don’t want to know), and though you pity this beggar, you also feel contempt and of course superior. Of course a day may come when you feel sick of this beggar and no longer wish to give any money to him/her

    For their self esteem and proper integration immigrants need jobs not free money.

    In addition the attitude of the Finns need to change. They have to be willing to work with a foreigner (any foreigner)without discrimination. They are a long way from this.

    • Enrique

      Hi Frances Ngum, welcom to Migrant Tales and thank you for sharing your ideas with us.

      If you ask me, high unemployment is the biggest social issue facing immigrants in Finland. I totally agree with you 150%. One of the biggest problems in Finland are Finns’ attitude. I believe that most people that move to Finland WANT to make something out of their lives. Who wants to be on the dole and receive money from the Kela. Immigrants should think about going on strike as they did in France and Italy recently. Only immigrants can change the situation. If you wait for Finns to come to the rescue, then you might as well wait forever.

  20. Tiwaz

    -“Because those Finns who live abroad are from Finland?!? ”
    So fucking what? Again, are you a lambs or men?
    Independence, ever heard that word? In very basic level it means that we are free to make our own decisions regardless of what you foreigners do.

    -“Because Finland is in the EU.”

    And, as noted several times already, EU laws do not give immigrants special rights. You have to succeed with your own merits just like everyone else.

    That means, if employer does not see that you have skills to do the job, you are not hired.
    Or if employer thinks you are an asshole, you are not hired.

    -“Why you didn’t like life? Did you get in contact with some locals? Or did you just spend your spare time in front of your computer waiting that your contract ends?”

    Because it was not home! I never did feel comfortable. I got in contact with locals, and actually for example for Englishmen quite a few felt rather disillusioned with how their native land had went straight to hell with multiculturalism.

    You see, I had the very same problem you immigrants whine about. Abroad never felt like place to call home.

    But unlike people like Enrique, I was not arrogant ass who would demand locals to change their native land and culture to fit me. I did my work, decided not to pursue any work abroad and came home.

    My message to all immigrants is.
    If it does not feel like home, you have two options.
    If you want to make it feel like home, CHANGE. YOU must change, not expect natives to change their home to appease you.
    If you do not want or can’t change, LEAVE.

    -“In addition the attitude of the Finns need to change. They have to be willing to work with a foreigner (any foreigner)without discrimination. They are a long way from this.”

    Wrong. IMMIGRANT ATTITUDE MUST CHANGE!

    Immigrants have to accept that things are done Finnish way in Finland. Learn what that means, learn to do things that way and LEARN FINNISH!

    And behold how all those “racist” obstacles disappear because they in reality were just your own failure to understand and act in Finnish society.

    Thousands of immigrants have already figured that out. They went native and quite many love it.

  21. Frances Ngum

    Can you please explain what the “Finnish way” is? I have heard this so many times here in Finland.

    Is there a Finnish way for a Doctor to treat a patient in the hospital?

    Is there a Finnish way to drive a bus?

    Is there a Finnish way to count maybe?

    I know there is a Finnish way to sit on a bus: it is “sit beside the foreigner only as a last resort”

    I know there are laws and traditions in each country that need to be respected.

    But if somebody is good at his/her job and speaks Finnish they still get treated differently at the work place. This is what I am talking about.

    The Finns treat you differently just because you are foreign. This should not be the case. Maybe the Finnish way means to be cold and suspicious towards foreigners. If so then it is not something to be proud of.

    • Enrique

      –Can you please explain what the “Finnish way” is?

      I could not have put it better. At the end of the day, Frances, the differences between people are not that big at all. Those who stress differences do so in many cases out of political greed (check the war on terror). Racism and fuelling hatred of other groups has a definite twisted role.

  22. xyz

    Of course it would be nice to learn Finnish but I was just wondering what your chances on the Finnish labor market are with non-native Finnish skills and 2-4 years maniac jobs in your CV while you study Finnish…

    Tiwaz = Finnish Taliban

  23. Tiwaz

    -“Can you please explain what the “Finnish way” is? I have heard this so many times here in Finland.”

    Go, look at Finnish society and culture and learn.

    -“Is there a Finnish way for a Doctor to treat a patient in the hospital?”

    Yes, Finnish doctor interacts with their patient according to Finnish cultural norms.
    They also do it IN FINNISH!

    -“Is there a Finnish way to drive a bus?”
    Yes, they interact with the customers according to Finnish cultural norms.

    Also, they do it IN FINNISH.

    -“I know there is a Finnish way to sit on a bus: it is “sit beside the foreigner only as a last resort””

    Apparently you are again another idiot who does not observe their surroundings.

    Finns value privacy, thus we prefer to sit alone. It has nothing to do with foreigner or Finn. We just do want our privacy.

    -“But if somebody is good at his/her job and speaks Finnish they still get treated differently at the work place. This is what I am talking about.

    The Finns treat you differently just because you are foreign. This should not be the case. Maybe the Finnish way means to be cold and suspicious towards foreigners. If so then it is not something to be proud of.”

    Ask yourself, if they speak Finnish and know their job. How do they ACT?
    You foreigners do not grasp it apparently but Finnish culture has norms for acting. You call it “being cold and distant” we call it “respecting privacy of other people”.

    If you act differently, you are treated differently. Same is true for Finns and foreigners. Learn how Finns interact with one another, learn to emulate same behavior and you realize that you are treated equally.

    Again, fault is not in Finns, but in YOU.

    -“Of course it would be nice to learn Finnish but I was just wondering what your chances on the Finnish labor market are with non-native Finnish skills and 2-4 years maniac jobs in your CV while you study Finnish…”

    Well, what do you expect?

    Employers are not there to give you shelter jobs, they are there to get people to work who can do the job.
    If job requires use of fluent Finnish, then you are not qualified.

    Do you think foreigners should be hired to do a job they cannot preform because they are foreigners?

    xyz = arrogant asshole.

    -“I could not have put it better. At the end of the day, Frances, the differences between people are not that big at all. Those who stress differences do so in many cases out of political greed (check the war on terror). Racism and fuelling hatred of other groups has a definite twisted role.”

    Differences are huge. You just try to live in little denial bubble because else you are forced to admit that multiculturalist idea is just another lunatic pipedream.

    Best way to eliminate racism, or what you people pretend to be racism, is for you foreigners to learn proper way of interaction in Finland.

    Finland is very equal nation. Problem for you foreigners is that you are arrogant. You assume that way you are used to doing things is “the right way”. In reality, each culture has their own right way of doing things.

    You foreigners keep doing your own thing even when it is in conflict with Finnish concept of right thing. And then you are whining that you are treated differently.

    Of course you are treated differently! You are essentially carrying fucking huge sign “Look me! I insist on being different!”.

    Learn to do things “right” and you notice you are treated like everyone else.

    Learn not bot be rude! Because that is what huge number of you foreigners are. You fail to act politely.

  24. xyz

    Now you have the reasons why many drop out of this society if Finland really works this way. You really want to live there?

    Of course you are treated differently! You are essentially carrying fucking huge sign “Look me! I insist on being different!”.
    -Whats wrong of being different? Sounds like a no fun and really boring society.

    • Enrique

      –Whats wrong of being different? Sounds like a no fun and really boring society.

      Good question, xyz! Vive le difference! That is the question at heart: difference and the ability to express it. In society that is an inalienable right: to be different if one so chooses. It is in our laws and part of our values as a society. Or should we go to the plastic surgeon and change the color of our skin and dye our hair blonde? What about going to a shrink to erase all our history and culture?

      The biggest flaw in the argument of xenophobes and those who fuel hatred and difference between people are: (1) cultures do not change; and (2) x culture is incompatible with ours. They argue that since cultures don’t change as well as people, we live in a state of cultural suspended animation. Nothing could be further from the truth. These types of arguments are, in plain English, a bunch of phony bolony that have their roots deep in the 1930s.

  25. Tiwaz

    -“Whats wrong of being different? Sounds like a no fun and really boring society.”

    Answer this, what is wrong being treated differently if you insist acting differently?

    You can’t have your cake and eat it. Either accept that you are treated differently or try to fit in.

    -“Good question, xyz! Vive le difference! That is the question at heart: difference and the ability to express it. In society that is an inalienable right: to be different if one so chooses. It is in our laws and part of our values as a society. Or should we go to the plastic surgeon and change the color of our skin and dye our hair blonde? What about going to a shrink to erase all our history and culture?”

    You again forget that we Finns have this same right. We have right to treat you differently if you insist on being different.

    -“The biggest flaw in the argument of xenophobes and those who fuel hatred and difference between people are: (1) cultures do not change;”

    And idiots think that cultures change because some asshats from abroad move in and whine that it is not like home.

    Cultures change as natives of that culture want to change it. Unless you of course come with guns and start slaughtering them if they do not appease you.

    I guess this is very close to heart of people originating from Americas, as that is where latest batch of such “enlightened” cultural exhange took place.

    Cultural changes have to fit to existing culture.

    -“(2) x culture is incompatible with ours. They argue that since cultures don’t change as well as people, we live in a state of cultural suspended animation. Nothing could be further from the truth. These types of arguments are, in plain English, a bunch of phony bolony that have their roots deep in the 1930s.”

    Who has said culture does not change? This is you again pulling off strawman arguments in the most pathetic way imaginable.

    Cultures change, but NATIVES choose how. And cultures only change when change can be made fit existing culture.

    As for cultures not fitting together. Has it ever crossed your mind that this is established fact?

    Radically different cultures never get along until one is beaten to submission. Even Green hippies acknowledge this, as Osmo Soininvaara mentioned in his blog some years ago.

    Somalian, and in general Islamic, culture IS incompatible with Finnish society.

    We do NOT tolerate child marriages, honor murder, raping women who dare to leave their houses alone.
    Same thing to you latinos who think corruption is natural. Or that punctuality means that you come 2 hours late.

    I just read in paper… I think it was Tekniikka&Talous about this lady who is running a company dedicated to…

    EDUCATING BUSINESSMEN ON CULTURAL DIFFERENCES!

    But clearly you in your infinite wisdom know that her business must be a failure because all cultures fit together perfectly and sing kumbaya.

    Actually, she was working for some latino company as secretary. I think Italian or Spanish. Something like that.

    They had meeting with Finnish customer 9am. 9.05 Finn was getting annoyed. She managed to rescue the situation by offering customer coffee and chatting with him until imbecile boss arrived around 9.30am.

    She got complaints from her boss for what she did, and it took her long time to make her boss figure out that if she had not offered coffee and kept customer occupied, he most likely would not have been there at 9.30am.

    So there, take your “all cultures work together just fine” and stick it into where sun does not shine.

    It is proven to be bullshit.

  26. xyz

    You again forget that we Finns have this same right. We have right to treat you differently if you insist on being different.
    -Whats the use of treating people differently?

  27. xyz

    Answer this, what is wrong being treated differently if you insist acting differently?
    -Most likely I don’t care if somebody is from Country A, B or C because I have been to so many countries.

    You again forget that we Finns have this same right. We have right to treat you differently if you insist on being different.
    -Yes and we have the same right too. So the solution is to find a balance.

    And idiots think that cultures change because some asshats from abroad move in and whine that it is not like home.
    -Of course it is changing. Other cultures affects others. Culture is developing. By the way you are the only one who is whining because you can’t handle changes and foreigners don’t like you because you call them asshats.

    Somalian, and in general Islamic, culture IS incompatible with Finnish society.
    -Of course if people have your attitude then integration will not work at all. Why should I integrate if I will not get a chance anyway just because of my background.

    Cultures change, but NATIVES choose how. And cultures only change when change can be made fit existing culture.
    -My girlfriend is Finnish and you are not 0.1% more Finnish than her. You are just closed minded and don’t know anything about the world.

    • Enrique

      –Somalian, and in general Islamic, culture IS incompatible with Finnish society.

      Tiwaz, your conclusion is flawed. It not only lacks an empirical basis, it is wrong. We have enough scientific knowledge to back the claim that cultures change and people can learn to live with each other irrespective of their background. The only obstable that makes two people from different cultures incompatible are themselves and what is in between their ears. Maybe the problem is you as an individual and your view of the world. Ever thought that you are incompatible with modern Finnish society?

      Your argument that Islamic culture is incompatible with Finnish society is the same broken-record hysteria played by right-wing fantatics such as the BNP and anti-immigrant groups. Such an ideology had its heyday in the 1930s and part of the 1940s in the form of eugenics. It caused a lot of devastation. We have not forgotten, nor will future generations.

  28. Tiwaz

    -“Whats the use of treating people differently?”

    What is the use of not treating different people differently?

    -“Most likely I don’t care if somebody is from Country A, B or C because I have been to so many countries.”

    Who gives a crap about where they are, issue is how they act.

    -“Of course it is changing. Other cultures affects others. Culture is developing. By the way you are the only one who is whining because you can’t handle changes and foreigners don’t like you because you call them asshats.”

    You are whining because Finns do not bend over backwards to appease your foreign ass. You couldn’t handle being in Finland so you left. And now you whine how evil Finland is for not appeasing your ass.

    Foreigners actually agree with me. Whole lot of people from different countries agree with my sentiment, when you come to my native land. YOU FUCKING BEHAVE PROPERLY ACCORDING TO _OUR_ TRADITION.

    That is very simple and basic requirement for polite behavior of guest.

    -“Of course if people have your attitude then integration will not work at all. Why should I integrate if I will not get a chance anyway just because of my background.”

    Who has denied you chance? You have all the chances everyone else has.

    You should not integrate because we give you gifts, you should integrate because it is the proper thing to do.

    First you integrate, then things go smoothly for you.

    -“My girlfriend is Finnish and you are not 0.1% more Finnish than her. You are just closed minded and don’t know anything about the world.”

    Your girlfriend is exception to rule. I am closer to majority view of Finns which is. Finland is Finland, learn to deal with it.

    -“It not only lacks an empirical basis, it is wrong. We have enough scientific knowledge to back the claim that cultures change and people can learn to live with each other irrespective of their background.”

    Which is why Yugoslavia, Iraq, Somalia and rest where different cultures are pushed together are so happy and peacefully coexist.
    And Russia is in tranquil peace with Tchechens.
    Belgian Walloons and Flemish walk hand in hand.
    Different groups in Spain sing kumbaya all the time.

    Cultural conflict is fact. It is empirically proven dozens of times at cost of human blood.

    Immigrants indeed can learn to live with native culture, but they have to be willing to change.
    Right now you are preaching hate where Somali will try to live in Finland as if he was still in Somalia.
    That is failure.

    -“Ever thought that you are incompatible with modern Finnish society? ”

    Ever thought that I am one who’s opinions huge majority of Finns share. This is OUR country. Thus OUR cultural norms. Those of you foreigners who can’t accept it.

    Feel free to leave.

    -“It caused a lot of devastation. We have not forgotten, nor will future generations.”

    September 11th.
    Madrid.
    London.

    Islamic terrorists killing themselves and others in name of way of life which is incompatible with modern, liberal western world.

    THAT is something we should not forget.

    • Enrique

      –Islamic terrorists killing themselves and others in name of way of life which is incompatible with modern, liberal western world.

      In first place all forms of terrorism should be condemned. We must not, however, forget the devastation that the West has brought on countries such as Iraq never mind Palestine.

      Again, you make the same foolish and unsubstantiated arguments that certain groups are incompatible with others. But that’s ok because that view comes from the 1930s and serves to feed xenophobia. Can I enlighten you again? Cultures change and people change with them. That is why humans from different cultures have always met, traded and created bonds. Sometimes there are jerks who think that they have some divine right to kill others in the name of race and blood.

      You do agree that you have free will and can think idependently. Or are you just a xerox copy of your culture?

  29. xyz

    YOU FUCKING BEHAVE PROPERLY ACCORDING TO _OUR_ TRADITION.
    -As I said several times, I don’t want to behave like you write here…

  30. Tiwaz

    -“As I said several times, I don’t want to behave like you write here…”

    And I have no intention of bending over backwards to appease you and your ilk in my native land.

    Finnish land, Finnish rules.

    • Enrique

      –And I have no intention of bending over backwards to appease you and your ilk in my native land.

      Nobody is asking you to. You have all the right to express your views. However, the rules of this society are made by the constitution and some key laws such as the Non-Discrimination Act. I wish more Finns would abide by them. Do you?

  31. Frances Ngum

    All you have said here TIWAZ has just gone to confirm what I said before. The Finnish way is nothing to be proud of.

    Did you say foreigners were rude and Finns polite. Well not only is this a gross generalization but judging from your example it is also a lie. I say this because you can’t make two sentencing without 10 abuses. Following what you said, you must be a foreigner, TIWAZ, because YOU are not polite.

    • Enrique

      Hi Frances, you make a good point. Tiwaz demands respect and compliance from immigrants in Finland but he acts like some capo in a concentration camp. We should elect him as Finland’s immigration minister. He can enlighten us with his views and end up turning Finland into a Hiroshima.

  32. Tiwaz

    -“But you don’t make the rules. My girlfriend does not behave like you do.”

    Averages matter.

    You also fail to recognize that most Finns act like I do if they have to deal with assholes like many foreigners are in this blog. Demanding their gilded asses to be appeased because they cannot accept that Finland is not Hubbabubbaland.

    -“Nobody is asking you to. You have all the right to express your views. However, the rules of this society are made by the constitution and some key laws such as the Non-Discrimination Act. I wish more Finns would abide by them. Do you?”

    Do you have proof that Finns do not abide by them?
    Do you think that foreigners should have right to overrule Finnish culture with their own?

    You ARE asking for appeasement. You want jobs without speaking Finnish. You want jobs without having proper credentials (you might have, but you do not go through trouble of having them recognized in Finnish version. We do not accept most foreign credentials at face value, you have to have them transferred)

    Because you foreigners cannot compete equally in Finnish society because you do not have skills, you demand that Finns must appease you and lower our requirements low enough for you to compete.

    That is demand of appeasement. That is also stupid because we have to RAISE the bar, not lower it to prosper in ever increasing competition.

    -“Did you say foreigners were rude and Finns polite. Well not only is this a gross generalization but judging from your example it is also a lie. I say this because you can’t make two sentencing without 10 abuses. Following what you said, you must be a foreigner, TIWAZ, because YOU are not polite.”

    Definition of polite is defined by culture.
    As free education on Finnish culture. We value honesty.
    I am telling you honestly and up to your face what is my view of you and your ilk. It is, in a Finnish way, polite.
    Furthermore, you ignore the fact that in this blog I and my way of life are repeatedly insulted by your ilk who whine how Finns are racist and horrible.

    Just because we do not bend over backwards to appease you.

    -“We should elect him as Finland’s immigration minister. He can enlighten us with his views and end up turning Finland into a Hiroshima.”

    Actually, if we look at real world it is multicultural nations which end up imploding and destroying themselves.

    With my ideas, Finland would prosper. We would remain safe society and as rest of the world becomes miserable shithole thanks to multiculturalism, all those who have good skills and desire safety would line up to try to get in.

  33. Frances Ngum

    So according to you the rest of the world is a bad place because of multiculturalism and only Finland is a “good” place. If you really believe this I can only say I sincerely feel sorry for you.

    I have just one question for you TIWAZ. How come with with such a perfect society Finland has one of the highest suicide rates in the world?

    Maybe they are killing themselves to get away from immigrants eh?
    Or maybe they are are seeking that privacy you say they love so much in the afterlife?

    • Enrique

      –So according to you the rest of the world is a bad place because of multiculturalism and only Finland is a “good” place.

      Frances, Tiwaz is a sad case. He would never ever let off the steam he does in this blog at his workplace. Why? Because he would be branded a racist and demoted — or be sued in a court of law.

      His flaw is his intransigence and belief that cultures don’t change and therefore people are incompatible. It is like saying to a person: you are evil and will always be that way. We cannot see each other any longer.

      However, fifty years from now people will scratch their heads and wonder how people could think in such a backward manner. It would be like reading people in the US South before the civil rights movement and listening to their dumb arguments why blacks and other minorities are lazy, stupid and not worthy of anything. All they need to do is stand at attention and try even though the system was made to destroy all their chances for a decent life.

  34. Seppo Pulkkinen

    I read all your comments and some of them were really clever. But it is amazing how one person can be so square mind and racist as Tiwaz. It seems Tiwaz doesn’t even know that in his country, there are actually 2 official languages: Finnish and Swedish. Already those are 2 different cultures and different behaviors, so it is multicultural even without the foreigners and this is a fact that you have to live with.
    I just had to say this. Please try to develop your mind Kiwaz! Your arguments are so poor and you are so wrong. I guess you really got a trauma from living abroad and unfortunately you did not learn anything.

  35. Tiwaz

    -“So according to you the rest of the world is a bad place because of multiculturalism and only Finland is a “good” place. If you really believe this I can only say I sincerely feel sorry for you.”

    If rest of the world is so perfect and great, why do you insist coming here instead of staying there?

    I like my life here. I want it remain this way, I have been abroad and seen where multiculturalism leads. And it is misery. I do not want to bring that misery to Finland.

    -“Frances, Tiwaz is a sad case. He would never ever let off the steam he does in this blog at his workplace. Why? Because he would be branded a racist and demoted — or be sued in a court of law.”

    Wrong. I cannot be sued for saying the truth.
    And I see you do not know Finnish people well. No surprise since you apparently go to great lengths to isolate yourself from natives.

    What I hear in my workplace is very much in line with what I say here. Finns do not want foreigners to come to Finland and start telling Finns that we must dance according to their tune.

    And people I associate with tend to come from higher end of education. Minimum is BSc-level.

    -“His flaw is his intransigence and belief that cultures don’t change and therefore people are incompatible. It is like saying to a person: you are evil and will always be that way. We cannot see each other any longer.”

    I have said cultures change. What you fail to grasp is that FOREINGERS are ones who have to change their culture when entering another country.

    You just stubbornly demand that Finns must appease immigrants, instead of telling immigrants to adjust to Finland.

    -“However, fifty years from now people will scratch their heads and wonder how people could think in such a backward manner. It would be like reading people in the US South before the civil rights movement and listening to their dumb arguments why blacks and other minorities are lazy, stupid and not worthy of anything. All they need to do is stand at attention and try even though the system was made to destroy all their chances for a decent life.”

    50 years from today people will scratch their heads and ask how people were so stupid as to believe in multiculturalism.

    In those 50 years, we have seen lots of more civil unrest and violence which will most likely peak at some nations at actual civil wars.

    Think Yugoslavia with ethnic cleansing was bad? There is more to come!

    -“It seems Tiwaz doesn’t even know that in his country, there are actually 2 official languages: Finnish and Swedish. Already those are 2 different cultures and different behaviors, so it is multicultural even without the foreigners and this is a fact that you have to live with.”

    It seems you are uneducated guy who does not grasp that Swedish speaking Finns today no longer have cultural gap.

    They HAD it once, when they were Swedes. But that was so long ago that their culture has assimilated to Finnish one. There are few little remnants besides their language which are different from rest of Finns.

    Furthermore, Swedish speakers by and large are perfectly capable of living in Finnish society with Finnish norms. I work with one of them. He speaks and acts perfectly Finnish. Only his name and language he uses when calling home set him in any way apart.

    That is not multiculturalism, it is subculture of Finnish culture.

    Try to develop your thinking.
    And go visit those “heavens” of multiculturalism, go look at the ugly underside of it and then come and say you want same for Finland.

    • Enrique

      –Wrong. I cannot be sued for saying the truth.

      Right, and if you were sued for slander and insulting other people and their cultures, you would whine and cry “freedom of speech.” That argument is a pile of you-know-what. You have no idea what freedom of speech means because you abuse it by (1) insulting other people anonymously and (2) have antiquated nineteenth-century views of other cultures.

      You seem to forget that there is ALREADY an immigrant multicultural community in Finland. It is not as if we are waiting for it to happen. It already EXISTS and since it EXISTS it has a right totake part in society and make its claims to happiness.

  36. Tiwaz

    -“Right, and if you were sued for slander and insulting other people and their cultures, you would whine and cry “freedom of speech.” That argument is a pile of you-know-what. You have no idea what freedom of speech means because you abuse it by (1) insulting other people anonymously and (2) have antiquated nineteenth-century views of other cultures.”

    You insult me and my culture repeatedly. Saying we are racist and how we are bad this bad that.

    Everything I have stated of foreign cultures is factual.

    You are just stubborn, foreign racist who is unhappy to realize that Finland and Finns do not jump and dance according to your tune. So instead of accepting that Finns have right not to appease your ass you whine how racist Finns are.

    Only way you would ever accept Finns as non-racist is if we bent over backwards to appease your every wish.

    -“You seem to forget that there is ALREADY an immigrant multicultural community in Finland. It is not as if we are waiting for it to happen. It already EXISTS and since it EXISTS it has a right totake part in society and make its claims to happiness.”

    And it is right of Finnish society to act against this multicultural community when their partaking in society means crime and disruption of society.

    As well as when their attempt to claim happiness violates Finnish claim to happiness.

    I ask you once again to point out how failed multiculturalism is.

    Assuming circumcision was not illegal in Finland…

    How can multiculturalism mend the problem between certain cultures wanting to barbarically mutilate their children and Finns finding this repulsive?

    Would you:

    A) Expect immigrants to adjust their culture to Finnish norms and stop child mutilation
    B) Expect Finns to appease foreigners and not hold such practice as disgusting barbarism
    C) Just wish that magically problem would go away if you tried to ignore it long enough

    • Enrique

      Tiwaz, I don’t know whether to cry or laugh. Do you take yourself seriously? Tell me please that you have been pulling our leg all along. Thoughts like yours are from the nineteenth century. Do people think that way in modern Finland?

  37. Seppo Pulkkinen

    “It seems you are an undecuated guy who does not grasp that Swedish speaking Finns today no longer have cultural gap”
    FYI. I am an Engineer and this kind of comments shows you know nothing about anyhting, not even your country. You should visit more often or at least read news about Ostrobotnia region where a population of Swedish speakears are, then you would know there is a big cultural gap between Finnish speaking people and Swedish speaking people; and actually there are many conflicts and lack of understanding between them, and you know why, especially for people like you; who still thinks the world is square, Finland is perfect and differences are bad, which is far from the reality.
    As you mentioned, you work with “one” of them…is that enough to give an opinion?, as you maybe know “one” foreigner or few of them but still you dear to give your non-sense and racist opinions, so stop thinking that things are only as you see them from your close-minded head. The world is full of information and things to learn from other cultures.

  38. Tiwaz

    Despite being old, this deserves a response.

    -“FYI. I am an Engineer and this kind of comments shows you know nothing about anyhting, not even your country. You should visit more often or at least read news about Ostrobotnia region where a population of Swedish speakears are, then you would know there is a big cultural gap between Finnish speaking people and Swedish speaking people;”

    How about you actually learn to know more about world instead of coming here to insult others. Have YOU ever worked abroad? Have you bothered to really look around and see the world?

    I have. And Finnish and Swedish speakers in Finland are practically same. And differences keep diminishing as Swedish speakers are steadily declining.

    Those small cliques of Swedish speakers who do not fit in are ever smaller and are already irrelevant.

    Yeah, whole lot of them will pretend they can’t speak Finnish. But push right buttons and suddenly huge majority develops excellent Finnish skills.

    -“and actually there are many conflicts and lack of understanding between them, and you know why, especially for people like you; who still thinks the world is square, Finland is perfect and differences are bad, which is far from the reality.”

    Clearly you do not know a damn thing about what I think. When have I said Finland to be perfect?

    Finland will not solve it’s problems by introducing more of them. And multiculturalism is all about increasing problems through loss of social cohesion.

    -“As you mentioned, you work with “one” of them…is that enough to give an opinion?, as you maybe know “one” foreigner or few of them but still you dear to give your non-sense and racist opinions, so stop thinking that things are only as you see them from your close-minded head.”

    And how many of them you work with? I see the world as it is. I recommed you waking up and going abroad to learn how failed multicultural societies are.

    -“The world is full of information and things to learn from other cultures.”

    How about immigrants learning our culture first if they want to live here?

  39. hyro

    Wow, this was very interesting. To much to say so little time…

    But I guess I can say that this was educational in some way. Lots of good points and well said. But I’m not even going to point out the finger here, I can respect all and each of your guys statements, whereas they were true or not.

    Time will tell..

    • Enrique

      –When the English find themselves swamped, you’ll get plenty of immigrants.

      Do you think, Norman, that this is a constructive way of speaking about such an important issue like immigration?

  40. Hietikko

    Wow, I’m sad to read this. I’m Finnish American and my Finnish mom and grandmother would be really horrified at some of the intolerance in this discussion. Sure, they were used to a small town, homogeneous culture and scared of a multicultural environment, but their Finnish gentleness, goodness, openness and hospitality made all my New York City friends love them.

    Finns are so great for NOT being arrogant and for being polite enough to actually listen. Are the crazy testosterone fellows on this site REALLY Finnish?

    Right now everyone in New York City is trying to figure out how to make the school system better; it is really messed up. Educators are flocking to Finland and talking about how smart Finns are, and how culturally Finns are very equity oriented. People in New York City can be SO aggressive and competitive (no, not the immigrants or blacks or Latinos, guess who yourself). Everyone, be so proud to be Finnish.

    My grandmother never really spoke English, I have no idea how she got citizenship! Finnish is a really hard language, and English for older Finns who grew up never hearing another language is almost as hard. It’s okay! Just be a little patient!

    A terrible part of America is the quick to judgment and violent streak. Having (not selling) a little bit of drugs can put someone in prison for decades! In prison there is no books, school, any way to improve yourself. Only mandatory work making supplies for war. There are huge amounts of people in jail and a year in jail costs MUCH more than a year of college. Society is going broke. But increasingly prisons are privatized and rich folks want them. People are starting to look at Finland and say, this is crazy! Finland reduced its prison industrial complex and shifted folks from prison to school. Finland has good schools. Finland doesn’t spend all its money on prison and war. Hey, explain to prison and war crazy Americans how Finland made its prison and school problems better. Is it because you have books and school in prisons? Is pot legal or something?

    Well, New York City and the amazing mix of people and that the majority of the city is immigrants makes it the best city in the U.S. The best food. Best art. Most creative technology, new media, engineering and other fields due to the big mix of ideas. But, still it has SO MUCH to learn from Finland. And the rest of America? Oh, man, the reindeer are so much smarter!

    I miss Finland, be proud, sisters and brothers.

    • Enrique

      Hi Hietikko, sorry for this belated welcome. We hope more Finnish Americans take part in our blog and offer their views on Finnish identity.

      I do agree with you about harsh prison sentences in the US and that such a stance benefits the privat companies that run the penitentary system. There are some things that I believe can never be privatized and where the state must play a role in education and, of course, the very bodies that regulate our banking system, economy, finance, justice etc.

    • Enrique

      Hi ufo and welcome to our blog. Here is an excellent opinion piece to be written by a Norwegian that you could tell us how you feel about his views on the tragic events on Friday. Post-Oslo means that when you make an irrational claim like “multiculturalism has failed” and that people should not mix, it is actually those ideas that are seen threats in Europe. It breeds hatred, contempt and encourages some people to go on killing rampages.

      The opinion piece on guardian.co.uk states at the end: “But in the aftermath of the most dreadful experience in Norway since the second world war I would like to go further. We need to use this incident to strike a blow to the intolerance, racism and hatred that is growing, not just in Norway, nor even only in Scandinavia, but throughout Europe.”

      Here is the link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/24/norway-tragedy-extremism-europe

  41. x

    More the foreigners or the finns to be rude and arrogant?

    I’m from North Italy: anyway to a job interview the boss arrived late (contract four days annulled before first gig..??…??that junky monster.)
    and corruption is evident in your govt too,

    Who isn’t corrupted by propaganda remembers it and to have read it sometime somewhere maybe as midnight news.

    I can agree that some islamic things are unbearable.

    Behave according our traditions? Well, I don’t have to eat crappy pullas on january 30th or puuroa at morning or to wear that russian lakki on may 1st or always speak your “so traditional” swedish slang, toveri stadilainen especially with an unkind person.

    Do you really consider your swedish colleague (swede-finnish) not a different culture but “sub-culture of finland?” (tywaz april 16)
    pratar du på svenska???

    That non-discrimination act of finland, that is exactly what many foreigners are suspecting it’s not applied properly.

    Multicultural nation destroying themselves? To me England France and Germany are doing fine. I don’t trust extremist islamists, but those states and even most parts of USA Italy Spain’s people seem happier and less destroyed than Finland’s people.
    Internet is making the world more global, with English as first language so far, keep on being closed-minded and xenophobe, we watch you, what goes around comes around.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi x and welcome to Migrant Tales. As you can tell, we are very anti-racism and pro-inclusion. Finland is a country that is becoming more culturally diverse. A big “no” to such a society was seen in April, when an anti-immigration and anti-EU party won 19.1% of the votes.

      I think the tipping point for this party was seen in the presidential election.

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