Turun Sanomat: Rasismi Turussa. Nyt.

by , under All categories, Enrique

Comment: Here is a pretty distressful letter to the editor from a reader. A situation nobody would want to be caught in: a gang of 7-8 men running after a black man.

It is a very good matter that sensible Finns are so outraged by this type of behavior that they are writing about it in the media.

What do you think about this type of behavior happening in Europe’s Cultural Capital 2011?

_____________

Turussa tapahtui seuraavaa: tulin ulos eräästä ravintolasta hilpeässä tunnelmassa. Havahduin kovaan huutoon takanani: ”S****nan n****ri, pysähdy tai käy huonosti!” Pelästyin ja käännyin katsomaan. Ohitseni juoksi tummaihoinen ja hoikka nuori mies kauhistunut ilme kasvoillaan. Muutaman askeleen päässä oli 7–8 kookasta ja päihtynyttä suomalaismiestä, joista osa oli ”nahkapäitä”. Jahtaajat näyttivät lopettavan jahtinsa hieman ennen torinkulmaa.

Miksi todistin kristalliyön omaista vainoa 2000-luvun Turussa ja vieläpä tulevassa kulttuuripääkaupungissamme, jonne tulee virtamaan kulttuurituristeja sankoin joukoin?

Entäpä muut vastaavanlaiset viimeaikaiset ilmiöt: buddhalaistemppelin kohtaamat rasistiset ilkityöt, rasismin vastaisen kulkueen näyttävä vastustaminen, uusnatsien viime aikojen terrorisointi ulkomaalaisia ja heidän omistamia ravintoloita kohtaan, tappelut?

Toivon, että mainitsemani rasistiset ilmiöt kuuluisivat jo historian havinaan ja että niihin ei tarvitsisi törmätä nykyaikana. Eräs henkilö esitti itselleni rasismin ratkaisuksi paljon vahvempaa reaktiota politiikan- ja kulttuuripiiriemme tahoilta kuin mitä se nyt antaa.

Turkulaisten vaikuttajien tulisi tuomita kaikenlainen rasistinen toiminta suuriäänisesti rakoilemattomana yhteisrintamana samalla kun poliisi nujertaisi kaikenlaisen rasistisen toiminnan jo heti kättelyssä.

Miksi poliisi ei tehosta toimintaansa ja anna esimerkkiä oikeudenmukaisen yhteiskunnan toiminnasta? Miksi sananvapauden ja isänmaan ystävyyden nimissä saa lietsoa pelkoa ja vihaa? Miksi tulevassa kulttuuripääkaupungissamme rasismi, uusnatsismi ja radikaalioikeistolaisuus rehottaa isolla volyymilla?

Huolestunut paljasjalkainen turkulainen

    • Enrique

      Yes, true. Everytime I see a drunk person I get a bit nervous. It’s safer to stay home.

  1. Tony Garcia

    Well I do, not only in Finland but also here in Ireland where the number of radon attacks during a weekend is sky high.

    Finland is a lovely place with lovely people but unfortunately alcohol is a major problem. I doubt anything would happen if those guys weren’t drunk. I know many Finns that would avoid the centre of Tampere Friday or Saturday nights. They know there is a great change they can get into trouble.

  2. xyz

    I doubt anything would happen if those guys weren’t drunk.
    -But fact is that they are drunk….maybe it’s a cultural thing…

  3. JusticeDemon

    lol@Tony the Toby

    What gives you the right to criticise Finland or Ireland? Shouldn’t you be out there getting pissed out of your tree in the interests of assimilation?

    Here’s something for you to ponder, Toby. If somebody yelling helvetin mutakuono breaks a beer bottle over your head in the street and the police arrive promptly at the scene, who is the most likely person to spend the night in the putka after all of the explanations have been given?

    • Enrique

      This is a pretty eerie claim and an example of complacent journalism: “The authorities say that the terrorist threat in Finland continues to be small, but the number of potential terrorists has grown in recent years.”

      This in my opinion an example of fear-mongering. I love that word “potential.” This is how it could read as well: “The authorities say that a ciminal threat continues to be small but the number of potential criminals has grown in recent years.” Due process of law? Oh that’s right. Terrorism does not fall under that category because the authorities can say just about anything without giving out more information.

      The whole atmosphere and mindset of the Finnish police of immigrants and people from certain regions is represented in that above-mentioned statement: they are a threat and are potential criminals or terrorists. As mentioned earlier, they should mention that the overwhelming majority of the immigrants in Finland are law-abiding.

      I remember well in the 1980s when the police argued that Finland did not want immigrants because it did not want to increase crime. Immigrants (they weren’t even called that back then) = criminals. Oh, so you are a foreigner, then you must be a potential criminal. It’s ok to exclude you because you are a foreigner.

      Nobody is underestimating terrorism or criminal gangs. We have our public servants (police et al) that do a pretty effective job.

  4. JusticeDemon

    The TobyJug obviously hasn’t understood that this thread is about a gang of racists chasing a black man in Turku, but still feels the need to raise an entirely different subject.

    Here’s a suggestion. Let’s talk about that gang of racists chasing the black man in Turku and hear some constructive thoughts on possible measures to stop it happening again.

  5. Klay_Immigrant

    1 witness report of a group chasing a black man down the street with no arrests, convictions or explanations for this incident and Finland has a racism problem.

    Many cases of certain immigrant groups with arrests and convictions for targeting vunerable young native girls and there’s still no problem for some.

    Can anyone see the inconsistency of this?

    Alcohol is a problem in Finland no doubt as in the other Nordic countries, U.K. and Ireland, because drunk behaviour is the norm on a weekend night. But to give the impression that if your an ethnic minority or an immigrant and happen to be in close proximity of drunk people then you’re in trouble is totally wrong. Isolated incidents do occur but they are not likely events.

    • Enrique

      Klay, it is your right to see matters in this way if you wish. However, I am especially proud of the person who wrote a letter to the editor. That’s how change begins.

  6. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    What you just did is a standard distraction tactic of racist fringe political groups. You could have taken that argument straight off the pages of Stormfront.

    It’s not even a new argument, just a rehash of the tired old line heard by traffic cops every day: “haven’t you got anything more important to do than harass motorists? Why aren’t you out catching burglars/rapists/arsonists/murderers?”

    Stop trying to evade the point or change the subject. This is not about consistency or balance between various types of social deviance. What is your concrete constructive proposal for making the streets of Turku safe for ALL members of the public?

    And the truth is, you’ve really got nothing to say about that.

    Your sort never have.

  7. Tony Garcia

    “We have our public servants (police et al) that do a pretty effective job.”

    I know that, that’s why when they tell us the we have Muslim terrorist in Finland I believe them, you though don’t because it’s inconvenient. Here is the people you so much claim needs protection: “…but people from Finland are recruited to training camps abroad.”

    • Enrique

      –“…but people from Finland are recruited to training camps abroad.”

      Maybe you should tell Supo about this type of intelligence. But don’t you think that it is odd that Supo is talking about potential terrorist attack committed by potential terrorists? This is a good way to give the green light to racial profiling and maintain an air of distrisut. Are they saying this because they want to tell the terrorists that they are on the lookout? I am sorry but all this is very unconvincing.

  8. Tony Garcia

    “I am especially proud of the person who wrote a letter to the editor. “

    Letter? So, isn’t this an article then? Only a letter? Not police report or CCTV? From whom? Another anonymous source? humm, it’s starting to smell fishy.

    Enrique I thought you have learned the lesson from Kajaani.

    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/The+racist+attack+that+never+was/1135223298920

    “However, it seems clear that in the name of tolerance, the media made news about a gruesome attack in on a pizzeria – a crime that never happened.”

    • Enrique

      –Letter? So, isn’t this an article then? Only a letter? Not police report or CCTV? From whom? Another anonymous source? humm, it’s starting to smell fishy.

      Tony with that kind of an imagination to blow things out of porportion you should seek employment in News on Sunday or The Sun. It was a letter to the editor. Oh, right, it was made up, according to you.

  9. JusticeDemon

    Children are also potential criminals, so we’d better stop making them too.

    Perhaps you have discovered the underlying reason for population decline in Finland.

  10. JusticeDemon

    lol@Tony the Toby

    Now desperately trying to argue that the incident never happened.

    To apply a Tobyism to that assertion:

    WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT IT NEVER HAPPENED?

    lol@the TobyJug

    Every time you think he couldn’t get any thicker, he suddenly does.

  11. Tony Garcia

    “But don’t you think that it is odd that Supo is talking about potential terrorist attack committed by potential terrorists? “

    Nop, I don’t. They are warning before it’s too late. Sweden took this approach of “oh well, it’s all good”, and what?

    “Oh, right, it was made up, according to you.”

    Did I say that? But usually in this kind of situations is quite common that the writer happen to “forget” tiny little details that could perhaps change the story just a little bit. I remember the case of the that Somali girl pushed out of the train, too much fuzz but no evidence. The only hard fact about it is that the girl’s father is well know by the police.

    However never stops amazing me how you can quickly dismiss when SUPO (putting its face on the record) warns about terrorism but accept an anonymous letter as holly truth. Interesting, isn’t?

  12. JusticeDemon

    lol@Tony the Toby

    Please advise UCD – School of Computer Science and Informatics that we have rumbled its program and that therefore Tony the Toby has failed the Turing test.

    • Enrique

      What do you want me to say? Any sensible person disapproves this kind of criminal behavior.

      By the way, going to another topic, isn’t it funny how none of the media in Finland speak about how family reunification could improve the social situation of some immgirants and thereby reduce crime? Finland’s media and all those that speak about family reunification never point out the benefits. Establishing social networks is important. Ever lived in a country without any family? I have and it is pretty tough even if your family is a phone-call away.

  13. Tony Garcia

    “What do you want me to say?”

    Well an alleged attack against a black outraged you in a such way that you felt compelled to write about it, I was just wondering if an admitted case of violent rape by a refugee against a Finn would do the same. Apparently not.

    But hey…

    “…family reunification could improve the social situation of some immgirants and thereby reduce crime?”

    Oh, it’s not their fault after all.

    • Enrique

      I am surprised that you think that I condone one type of crime and not another one. Groups like the far-right have used this tactic to label whole groups and further their hate agenda. If you speak of a sick individual that should pay for his ghastly crime, yes. If you are going to label whole groups, then I will give you a flat no. Now, tell me, why are the 7-8 bullies running after a black man in Turku still free? No punishment, total impunity except for the brave citizen that wrote a letter to the editor about it. He did not publish it in his name because in this society it is still shameful to speak out against racism. One day things will change in Finland.

    • Enrique

      JusticeDemon, I didn’t read the HS article. I will try to find it on the net. Anything interesting from your point of view?

  14. JusticeDemon

    Ricky,

    I think it’s far more likely that the letter to TS was anonymous because the writer is not keen to have these thugs calling at her door.

    • Enrique

      You are absolutely right, JusticeDemon. This could be the main reason, or let’s say two: thugs calling at his/her door and the stigma of standing up against racism.

  15. Tony Garcia

    “I am surprised that you think that I condone one type of crime and not another one. “

    I never said that, my point is our response to the both cases (one alleged and another confessed). We clearly see that the combination of victim versus culprit makes a big difference for you.

    “Now, tell me, why are the 7-8 bullies running after a black man in Turku still free. “

    Where is the case? Did anyone report to the police? Where is the CCTV? The only thing we have is an anonymous letter, nothing else.

    • Enrique

      –I never said that, my point is our response to the both cases (one alleged and another confessed). We clearly see that the combination of victim versus culprit makes a big difference for you.

      So you think that the letter to the editor was made up? If 7-8 persons on the street run after a man and don’t get caught that scares me. If some criminal idiot commits a crime and gets caught, let the courts sentence him so he can pay for his crime.

      I am not going to get involved in labelling whole groups because of some criminals. People in the United States don’t see criminal written on black men even if most prison inmates are from this ethnic group. Society is complex. It is like humankind. You can’t give simple answers to complex issues. Why don’t you ask how we could lower the crime rate?

  16. JusticeDemon

    Ricky,

    I know quite a few immigrants from the Philippines. In general we find that they often need to be a little more assertive, as Finland is very much a society that expects people to form stakeholder lobbies and at least passively defend their individual interests. One or two employers have been shocked to get a call from a lawyer at the service sector trade union or from a labour protection official about unlawful practices that their Filipino employees had seemingly tolerated for years. You know the story.

    The HS article focuses on the personal situations of a couple of surgical assistants from the Philippines who have been working at HYKS for the last nine months.

    There’s also a video still available on the HS website that covers some of the same ground.

  17. Tony Garcia

    I’m really having trouble to understand why write about a refugee who admits rape a Finn is labelling the whole group, but about an alleged attack described by an anonymous letter isn’t. It all boils down to the combination victim versus culprit.

    Enrique, caught by whom? The police? So, when was this reported to the police? If this person is so brave as you say why only write to the paper, why not report it to the police? His identity would be protected. This story has far too many wholes on it. Sorry to say but you have no case here, only the whish to call the Finns racists.

    • Enrique

      –I’m really having trouble to understand why write about a refugee who admits rape a Finn is labelling the whole group, but about an alleged attack described by an anonymous letter isn’t.

      It doesn’t boil down to anything. We are not stating that ALL Finns are racists. Only what was written in the letter to the editor.

      I suggest you write to the editor of Turun Sanomat and state your case. I quoted the letter from a reputable newspaper called Turun Sanomat which I trust.

  18. JusticeDemon

    lol@Tony the Toby

    I’m really having trouble to understand…

    Vision of the Toby scratching head

    The TobyJug cannot understand how we can have the temerity to conclude that a gang of thugs chasing a black man and yelling Saatanan neekeri! are racists.

    In his own racist mindset, the Toby thinks that we are thereby saying that all Finns are racists.

    In exactly the same way that all Brazilians are environmental vandals who should be arrested for indecent exposure on the streets of Helsinki in summer.

    lol@the TobyJug

  19. JusticeDemon

    lol@the TobyJug

    The only thing we have is an anonymous letter, nothing else.

    If you had enough brains to fart with, you would know that like all media in its newsgroup, Turun Sanomat applies the following policy to anonymous publication:

    Etusijalla ovat omalla nimellään kirjoittavat. Nimimerkillä kirjoittavien on ilmoitettava toimituksen tietoon oma nimensä, osoitteensa ja puhelinnumeronsa. Nimimerkillä ei ole suotavaa vastata omalla nimellään kirjoittaneelle.

    The newspaper has the writer’s name, address and telephone number. It just isn’t about to hand these over to your brownshirt friends.

  20. Tiwaz

    Which does not change fact that this is anonymous letter without any actual evidence. This could have taken place, could have not.

    More to point, let’s look how this letter ALSO conveniently makes another unsubstantiated accusation.

    “Racist attack on buddhist temple”

    Is there any evidence on this case either? Not that I know of.

    Enrique, you have disgusting attitude. You are prepared to dismiss hard facts which show that immigrant groups have serious issues which should be straightened, like their disproportionate rape statistics, but are prepared to condemn Finns without ANY solid evidence. Hell, you even make excuses for them!

    “Let them bring their families more easily here and they might not commit crimes so much”.
    This is group which is not well known for it’s ability to support themselves with work. And your solution is to increase them. Great, and Finn the Taxpayer has to floor the bill for you right? Not to mention the whole stupidity of argument! Family or no, law should be obeyed by immigrants.

    For you it is enough that someone, somewhere, says something agains Finns and you take it and carry it like holy truth forward in your blog.

    IF, and that is strong if, this accusation in TS is true, then it is very sad case. Specially if only reason for this gang chase is skincolor of the person (we do not know what conditions did lead to this chase do we?).
    Racism indeed is something to be opposed, ALL racism. Which means ALSO racism of minorities towards majority.

    Something this blog is sadly missing.

  21. Tiwaz

    And to make it clear, this blog is missing condemnation of minority racism. Actual minority racism is alive and well in the blog.

    • Enrique

      –And to make it clear, this blog is missing condemnation of minority racism.

      Do you know what I tell some students when they are victims of racism. Don’t go to a corner and cry, fight back. Go ahead and sue me for placing “racist” comment against Finns. You are too far gone, extreme and incapable of learning anything new that it is a waste of time.

      As I told you, far-right groups in Finland like to neutralize their racism (many don’t even understand what it is) by accusing their victims of their rude and criminal behavior.

  22. Tony Garcia

    “Do you know what I tell some students when they are victims of racism. Don’t go to a corner and cry, fight back.”

    Enrique, you are now saying that there is no racism coming from minorities in Finland? Are they all nice and good? Really? Common, you could at least do the usual excuse: “yes, but it’s all Finns fault”. That works better than plain denial.

    And what do you mean by fight back? What kind of fight are you talking about? Could you please be a bit specific?

    • Enrique

      –Enrique, you are now saying that there is no racism coming from minorities in Finland? Are they all nice and good? Really?

      Did I say that? Living in a diverse society as ours requires mutual respect and acceptance. This is important to keep in mind.

  23. Tony Garcia

    “Did I say that?”

    Well you didn’t answer Twiaz question, so I was just wondering, nevertheless it’s good to know that you acknowledge racism from minorities against Finns.

    How about the so called fight, could you please answer in with way you think they should fight. Also once we stabilised that racism comes from both sides do you also advice Finns to fight in the same way?

    • Enrique

      –How about the so called fight, could you please answer in with way you think they should fight. Also once we stabilised that racism comes from both sides do you also advice Finns to fight in the same way?

      Tony if we are honest, the argument that a minority, which is a victim of racism is “racist” against the aggressor is a bit preposterous. If racism of minorities towards Finns is an issue why aren’t there cases in the courts? But I am certain you can find such cases. If you look at the networks and who controls the political and economical power in this country, there is very little “racism” that immigrants can inflict. However, the best way to look at that is that if we live in a culturally diverse society, we all need to have mutual acceptance and respect.

      Fighting back? If somebody were stupid enough to discriminate against me, I would not waste a second in suing him. The reason why some people do this is because they feel that nothing will happen to them. In places like the United States it is a different story.

      The message should be clear: Racism is a crime.

  24. Tony Garcia

    “Tony if we are honest, the argument that a minority, which is a victim of racism is “racist” against the aggressor is a bit preposterous. “

    There you go, how expected, oh well…

    Some Finns don’t like non-whites because the are not white, this is racism. Some non-whites don’t like Finns because they are white, this is also racism. Both are real and equally wrong, however we all know you will never speak a word against a non-Finn.

    “If somebody were stupid enough to discriminate against me”

    You are confusing things here, racism and discrimination are two very different things. A person can discriminate but it doesn’t mean he is racist. For example a Finn can discriminate against another Finn to give a jog to a relative. A discrimination case can well be based on racism but not necessaryly.

    In the other hand a Finns may hate blacks but he may not be brave enough the break the law and discriminate against him.

    Discrimination is an act punished by law, racism is an opinion, and as such, it can’t be punished.

    “there is very little “racism” that immigrants can inflict.”

    See how wrong you are? First: many immigrants from non-white ethnic groups can, and do, have a negative opinion about Finns just because they are white. Second: the fact the non-white ethnic groups cannot commit many acts based on racism it doesn’t means that they wouldn’t if given an opportunity, because the opinion (the racism) is there, they just don’t have the strength to use it.

  25. Tony Garcia

    “Enrique, you are now saying that there is no racism coming from minorities in Finland?”

    “Did I say that?”

    Well, you just did…

    “..the argument that a minority, which is a victim of racism is “racist” against the aggressor is a bit preposterous”

    • Enrique

      –“..the argument that a minority, which is a victim of racism is “racist” against the aggressor is a bit preposterous”

      OK, since you blow everything out of porportion let me ask you this question: Give me some specific cases of racism by minorities on Finns. Whom and against which group and how?

  26. xyz

    Finnish Criminal Code 515/2003 (enacted January 31, 2003) makes “committing a crime against a person, because of his national, racial, ethnical or equivalent group” an aggravating circumstance in sentencing.
    Racial = Racism?

  27. xyz

    I am quite sure that no immigrant wants to move to a country where he/she already know before moving there that he/she will hate the people there.

  28. Tony Garcia

    I’m blowing anything out of proportion, my friend. I’m just point here a fact. Some white people in Finland don’t like non-whites and some non-whites don’t like whites.

    I have heard things like “you can’t expect much from whites, can you?” or “I hate white trash” or “stupid white”. I’m sure you haven’t because your ears are trained to block anything bad coming from non-Finns.

    The question is how many Finn and non-Finns are ready to express their opinion through actions.

    Lately I read in the papers many cases of fights between Finns and immigrants during the night. I’m sure some cases are motivated purely by excess of alcohol, some by white racism, but also some by non-white racism. Another example is what is called sex-jihad. Gang of Muslims raping only white girls.

    I know a group of Africans teens in Tampere that goes out during the night only to pick a fight with Finns. This group has no problem in express their opinion through action, the question remains – how many more are out there?

  29. xyz

    Well, in this case you have to investigate how somebody who moves to a new country develops such an attitude towards their host? Nothing comes from nothing.

  30. JusticeDemon

    lol@the TobyJug

    I have heard things like…

    Lately I read in the papers…

    I know a group of African teens in Tampere…

    You have heard of…, read somewhere … know of … ? So, isn’t this an article then? Only hearsay? Not a police report or CCTV? From whom? Another anonymous source? humm, it’s starting to smell fishy.

    How do YOU match up to your own criteria for what constitutes evidence, you moron? You know a group of Africans…? How is that possible, since by your own admission you have no such acquaintances? Surely you’re not… (what’s the word for deliberately telling untruths for personal gain or vindication?)

    All we are getting from you here, Toby, are the ravings of a self-confessed bigot dreaming up justifications for bigotry.

  31. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, I have posted this here before but I wouldn’t be surprised if you happen to have “forgotten”. Once I think it’s very appropriate for this discussion I’ll post it again. This is black guy’s opinion about all of this.

    http://www.newswithviews.com/Marcus/lloyd111.htm

    Just a little quote…

    “For the sake of our children, blacks must see America for what it truly is today: a wonderful country where if the would simply get out Obama administration of the way, anyone with an idea, a dream, and a willingness to work can succeed. It is time to end “groupthink” and black racism and celebrate individuality and independence.”

    • Enrique

      Tony, even though he is a “black guy” he is just a “guy” with conservative values. Possibly conservatives get all turned on when they see people (Muslims, blacks etc) speaking the same lingo.

  32. JusticeDemon

    lol@the TobyJug

    That’s a really big straw man you’ve just blown away. Bill Cosby would be a better known example, of course.

    You are like a banker who has just embezzled millions pointing at a petty thief and saying but everybody does it!”

    How many people from ethnic or similar minorities in Finland have even been charged with offences of incitement (RL 11.10) or discrimination (RL 11.11), still less convicted?

    lol@the.TobyJug

  33. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, even though he is a “black guy” he is just a “guy””

    I think it’s very offensive how you dismiss this person opinion.

    “with conservative values.”

    Oh, that makes the whole difference, doesn’t?

    No, we conservatives get “all turned on” when ex-Muslims or blacks speak out about what is going on. Liberals, in the other hand, prefer to live in your bubble and dismiss such inconvenience as “just a guy”.

    So, according to you racism is a genetic dysfunction of the white race and a moral pervasion of the Christian fate. The only ones that can have racist opinions are white Christians. Well, if that makes you sleep better, so be it.

  34. Tony Garcia

    This is from Larry Elder’s (don’t worry just another “guy”) book “The Ten Things You Can’t Say In America”. I would suggest you Enrique should read it, but, you don’t “waste” your time with this kind “rubbish”, do you?

    “Many American blacks falsely and unfairly accuse whites for black America’s “plight.” Bad schools? White racism. Crime? White racism. Under performance on standardized tests? racist or “culturally biased” tests. Can’t get a loan for a home or a new business? Racist lending officers, who would rather reject profit than give a black man a loan. Disproportionately high arrest rates? racial profiling by racist cops. To put it more bluntly, many blacks simply despise whites. They assume white bigotry and hostility towards blacks, and feel — against all evidence — that “white racism” remains a formidable obstacle. What nonsense.”

    “Twenty-five percent of young black men are in jail, on parole, or on probation. A black man is ten times more likely to rape a white woman than a white man is to rape a black woman. Blacks account for 50 percent of the nation’s prisoners. Gang-bangers are almost inevitably black or Latino. Hurts the image, you know. Don’t think the young white woman in that elevator is oblivious. Don’t think that a white woman living in the city hasn’t seen, experienced, or had friends who experienced crime at the hands of black thugs…If Jesse Jackson himself says he’s relieved when the late-night footsteps on the street behind him belong to white rather than black feet, all bets are off.”

    “Poverty causes crime? According to James Q. Wilson and Richard Hernstein, “During the 1960s, one neighborhood in San Francisco had the lowest income, the highest unemployment rate, the highest proportion of families with incomes under four thousand dollars a year, the least educational attainment, the highest tuberculosis rate, and the highest proportion of substandard housing…that neighborhood was called Chinatown. Yet, in 1965, there were only five persons of Chinese ancestry committed to prison in the entire [emphasis added] state of California.”

  35. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, Larry was definitely thinking about you when he wrote this one…

    “Good motives aside, white condescension does more damage than good. White condescension says to a black child, “The rules used by other ethnic groups don’t apply to you. Forget about “work hard, get an education, posses good values. No, for you, we’ll alter the rules by lowering the standards and expecting less.'” Expect less, get less.”

    • Enrique

      –“Good motives aside, white condescension does more damage than good. White condescension says to a black child, “The rules used by other ethnic groups don’t apply to you. Forget about “work hard, get an education, posses good values. No, for you, we’ll alter the rules by lowering the standards and expecting less.’” Expect less, get less.”

      Do you really think that some immigrants don’t have the same rules applied to them? On the contrary. It is not applying these rules that is at the heart of the problem. Its like Halla-aho states that he likes to bash Muslims because nobody else is doing it. They are shielded. Really? In the first place we invade and spread destruction, when they come here as refugees due to our actions we bash them even harder and make a big deal about who they are. I don’t know what it is, but you seem to forget a few hard and crucial facts along the way.

      What would be the consequence of your actions if they were applied? It would mean that you would be the benchmark (ethnocentrism). You could be lazy and protected because you wouldn’t have to move a finger. Please Tony, we weren’t born yesterday…

  36. JusticeDemon

    lol@Tony the Toby

    All of this relates to Finland because of the history of slavery … errr … because of the history of colonial… errr … because of the history of gunboat diplomacy … errr … because of the history of huge disparities in income and political influence … errr …

    Nope, sorry, I can’t think of a single factor that makes these North American examples remotely relevant to the discussion of a gang of racist thugs chasing a man in Turku because of the colour of his skin.

    Once again Tony the Toby is simply trying to change the subject or deflect attention from the consequences of his hate speech. None of us are fooled by this tired old fascist tactic.

  37. Tony Garcia

    “Do you really think that some immigrants don’t have the same rules applied to them?”

    For some? Absolutely, for other, not that much. I’m sorry but you have shown here a massive condescension to Africans in general and Muslims in particularly.

    You denial that members of minority groups in Finland do have racists attitude against Finns is a excellent example of it. You also can give more credit to an anonymous letter talking about an attack that has no record but quickly dismiss someone who is giving his opinion and putting his name on the record.

    I’m sorry to say but the combination of victim versus culprit makes a huge difference on your judgement.

    • Enrique

      –You denial that members of minority groups in Finland do have racists attitude against Finns is a excellent example of it.

      Let me correct you big time: I never stated this. Remember the Buddhist Temple? Well who was right?

  38. Tony Garcia

    “Let me correct you big time: I never stated this.”

    “Tony if we are honest, the argument that a minority, which is a victim of racism is “racist” against the aggressor is a bit preposterous.”

    • Enrique

      –“Tony if we are honest, the argument that a minority, which is a victim of racism is “racist” against the aggressor is a bit preposterous.”

      Of course there is prejudice and racism against other groups. However, for you to try to level the playing field (ie since we are racist that is ok because they are too) is preposterous. That was my point I wasn’t saying that but you always blow things out of porportion don’t you?

      Nice try anyway.

  39. Tony Garcia

    Was it a nice try? Well, let’s see, If I remember right:

    1. It all started by you giving advice to immigrants when facing racism.

    2. I asked how about Finns facing racism from immigrants.

    3. You denied it can happen.

    4. I showed that it does happen.

    5. You denied it again.

    6. I quote black Americans saying “yes, black racism does exist”.

    7. You ignored.

    And so have we been in our lovely round about. Was it a nice try? Yes I think it was, but it’s well established here that you’ll never admit an immigrant (unless a white Christian conservative, of course) can do anything wrong, particularly Africans or Muslims. They are all spot on.

    • Enrique

      Tony, you are sometimes funny. How can anyone take you seriously when you put words in my mouth? But of course you don’t have any problems with racism, right? You are only against a certain group.

  40. JusticeDemon

    lol@the TobyJug

    What would you do to stop racially motivated violence in Finland, Toby?

    Ah yes – you would write to a blog that blacks do it too, in the USA and that’s enough to solve the problem.

    Seriously, you need medical help, Toby. You are showing symptoms of congenital hypothyroidism.

  41. Tony Garcia

    ” This could be the main reason, or let’s say two: thugs calling at his/her door and the stigma of standing up against racism.”

    Doesn’t this breach the Migrants Tales Censorship Code paragraph 1?

    “If you would never say it in public don’t say it on Migrant Tales! “

  42. JusticeDemon

    The letter was printed in Turun Sanomat, subject to the specific policy of that newspaper on printing contributions under a nom de plume.

    Seriously, Toby, go and see your doctor. The treatment for cretinism is a daily dose of levothyroxine.

  43. Tiwaz

    -“Let me correct you big time: I never stated this. Remember the Buddhist Temple? Well who was right?”

    Could you point out reliable source, police investigation for example, where it is found out that it was indeed racist crime?

    Some guy writing a letter is not proof, unless he happens to be investigating police.

    -“Of course there is prejudice and racism against other groups. However, for you to try to level the playing field (ie since we are racist that is ok because they are too) is preposterous. That was my point I wasn’t saying that but you always blow things out of porportion don’t you?”

    Where is your condemnation of racism against Finns? I have on record here condemned racism. You on other hand desperately try to avoid denouncing any and ALL minority committed racism. Instead making up excuses for them.

    xyz:”Well, in this case you have to investigate how somebody who moves to a new country develops such an attitude towards their host? Nothing comes from nothing.”

    Can be turned around just as well. How about investigating why host society starts to develop negative attitude towards immigrants… Hmm? Nothing comes from nothing you know.

    And if Finns were all over racists, then problems would not be limited to certain groups of immigrants. But as it is, racism appears to be mainly issue of certain groups which, coincidentally, are also ones who are least likely to embrace Finnish society as it is and adjust to it. Instead wanting to impose their own rules on Finns.

  44. xyz

    And if Finns were all over racists, then problems would not be limited to certain groups of immigrants.
    -I never said that all Finns are racist. The issue is that some people don’t have the same chances just because they have e.g. a different skin color.

    Can be turned around just as well. How about investigating why host society starts to develop negative attitude towards immigrants… Hmm? Nothing comes from nothing you know.
    -You mean the image that all immigrants are lazy wellfare seekers?

    • Enrique

      xyz, let me back you on what Tiwaz said: None of us have alleged or suggested that all Finns are racists. Some are, full stop.

    • Enrique

      –Can be turned around just as well. How about investigating why host society starts to develop negative attitude towards immigrants… Hmm? Nothing comes from nothing you know.

      True, you could start by looking at yourself in the mirror. You are the reason why some immigrants have a bad name.

  45. Tiwaz

    -“I never said that all Finns are racist. The issue is that some people don’t have the same chances just because they have e.g. a different skin color.”

    Who has said all immigrants are bad?
    As for same chances… Do you have evidence that skin color is reason for not getting same chances?

    Have you ever stopped to think that REAL reason could have nothing to do with skin color, but rather what comes with it…

    Lacking education, no skill in Finnish… No cultural understanding of Finnish society.

    Look at Jani Toivola. Black, gay. And appears to do well. If it was his skin, why he is not doing so well?

    Then we have this week in Aamulehti case of Estonian russian family who moved in during nineties.

    White as day, so skinshade cannot be the reason mom spent most of her time unemployed. But her daughter is a realist, and mother as well. Mother did not speak Finnish, thus her ability to find a job was limited. There just is very little jobs for people who do not speak local language when whole society works on it.

    Employers are not social services. They do not want to provide charity jobs for people, they want people who can do their job. And when weeding out applications, they prefer ones which are more likely to be suitable for the job.

    -“You mean the image that all immigrants are lazy wellfare seekers?”

    Many of those who are unemployed are. Those who are motivated, hard working folk tend to work on their language skills, have other skills and get into worklife.

    Majority of immigrants actually have no issues with racism. It is small group of people who insist that Finland and Finns must change to fit them, who have this problem. And their claims of racism stem from their own racist attitude that when Finns live as Finns live, they are racist because they do not act and live like IMMIGRANTS want them to act and live.

    Lots of immigrants actually find you Enrique a pain in the ass, troublemaker who is giving rest of immigrants bad rep. Same with this “immigrant parliament” which primarily serves to give convenient soapbox for other anti-Finnish racists as they try to claim to “speak for immigrants”.

    Most immigrants want nothing to do with EITHER. They have adjusted to society or are working on adjusting and generally are content enough. Some want to leave later on, many decide that this is place where they want to be.

    These people are also very critical on your ideas of immigration Enrique. Because they know that your rather stupid ideas would just mean huge strain on limited tax money.

    Money THEY too are paying to the state.

    You should visit finlandforum.org Enrique. Lots of immigrants there, some complain, some love Finland. But overall, their attitude about Finland and things in general are very different from what you try to represent.

  46. xyz

    Do you have evidence that skin color is reason for not getting same chances?
    Have you ever stopped to think that REAL reason could have nothing to do with skin color, but rather what comes with it…
    -Hmm you are an evidence. Just read those 2 sentences above and THINK again.

    Many of those who are unemployed are. Those who are motivated, hard working folk tend to work on their language skills, have other skills and get into worklife.
    -I can understand why they are not motivated to learn Finnish. Lack of language courses and no success stories of people who got a job after taking those language courses (1 out of 6). Better go Fishing or open a Pizza Place. And to be honest, after telling me in the EURES office in Helsinki that I could study also Swedish instead of Finnish and that I may also consider to open a business afterwards, I don’t take any of their advices anymore serious. A friend of mine has B level in Finnish after 2 years and is still unemployed.

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