The role of the Finnish social welfare state and newcomers

by , under All categories, Enrique

It is surprising that one can hear these days in private conversation from some teachers and people working with immigrants and refugees that some national groups should never be  brought to this country because they will never adapt to our way of life. “Why do they continue to bring them here?” some say.

Another affirmation that has surprised me for quite some time is the naive view that we can choose those that we like to move to this country and live happily ever after.

These two comments not only reveal a generous dose of ignorance about the dynamics of immigration and refugees but relfect their setbacks and frustration in teaching and working with immigrants and refugees.

If a person believes that fifty-year-old women from the Middle East should never be brought to this country refugees because “people of her kind will never adapt,” then we should, in all fairness, apply the same standard to Finns that are not adapted to society: the alcoholics, the long-term middle-aged unemployed, people who suffer from chronic depression as well as a long list of  others.

When I asked one of the teachers what should be done, silence answered my question. I asked if we should round up all those we consider “maladapted and/or unadaptable” and deport them back to their war-torn countries? In the case of those Finns we consider marginal from society, should we also lock them up in some asylum or island and throw away the keys so they won’t bother us any longer?

A relative of mine once said that when one moves to a foreign country, one learns new things about oneself. In the same respect, immigrants and refugees are showing the positive and negative side of our society because it is being put to the test, sometimes under extreme condtions.

I believe that one of the major problems of our immigrant and refugee policy is littered with good intention but lacks a coherent policy. Newcomers are showing some positive and unsettling matters about our society such as bigotry and ignorance. It is also showing the most important matter of all: lack of clear leadership from those who should show the way to a successful immigration/refugee policy.

  1. punster

    So when some say “Why do they continue to bring them here?” you immediately ask should we start rounding up and start deporting people.

    And you wonder why don’t get an answer when you yourself fail to answer the question. Did you even listen?

  2. Martin-Éric

    I have long said that Finns who support the deportation of maladapted immigrants should also support the deportation of maladapted Finns back to the Central Siberian lands of their ancestors. Then again, I’m not holding my breath; the chances of the average redneck ever developing such coherence are essentially nil.

    I agree that this country lacks vision and leadership. This being said, this concerns most matters of public policy, not just refugee policy.

    However, I would not be so quick at blaming Astrid Thors for all the mess:

    First of all, it’s not Thors’ fault if Finland’s legislation is lagging behind its international commitments on refugees.

    One thing I keep on noticing is how even bringing up the issue of refugees is enough to kill any initiative dead in its tracks. This is how important changes to the legislation that are actually meant to accomplish exactly what the population wants (to further limit and restrict the criteria for claiming asylum, and to enable the swift deportation of people repeatedly making unfounded applications) from being enacted within a reasonable amount of time.

    As it so happens, Thors used to be the chairman of Pakkolaisneuvonta and because of this she knows exactly what needs to be done to get the Finnish legislation in line with the country’s international commitments and, ever since she was nominated as the Minister of Immigration, she has been trying to get this dealt with, so that she could finally get around creating this country’s first coherent migrant labor policy. Sadly, nobody will let her do it, because the mere idea of bringing up refugee-related issues upsets everyone.

    In fairness, I was also skeptical of Thors’ ability to discuss non-refugee issues and to develop work-related immigration policy but, much to my delight, I’ve recently seen sign that someone in her team at least has a vague idea of what needs to be done. The current plan would be to adopt a scoring system similar to Canada and New Zealand, where labor market considerations and skills assessment would be performed exactly once, before deciding upon granting someone their first residence permit. If someone passes the selection criteria, they would be immediately granted a residence permit for 5 years. Though selection criteria, but a 5-year long green light if we pass. That’s music to my ears!

    • Enrique

      Hi Martin-Éric, the trick of understanding what Finnish political parties is to uncover what they are REALLY saying because they will never say it outloud. The Centre Party, which ruled this country a great part of the cold war, is not your most immigrant-friendly, especially those card-carrying members who are from the countryside. This is one reason why there is little leadership from the government on this issue. Do you think Kokoomous is open to immigration? Many of them don´t like liberal values such as equality never mind the Non-Discrimination Act.

  3. Tiwaz

    -“It is surprising that one can hear these days in private conversation from some teachers and people working with immigrants and refugees that some national groups should never be brought to this country because they will never adapt to our way of life. “Why do they continue to bring them here?” some say.”

    You mean people who WORK with these people say they never adapt… So, shock and horror, people who have closest and best knowledge on failure of multicultural society do not say what you want to hear!

    They do not adapt to our way of life because they do not want to. They want everything to themselves now and without any reciprocity.

    -“Another affirmation that has surprised me for quite some time is the naive view that we can choose those that we like to move to this country and live happily ever after.”

    Yes we can choose. By telling non wanted people that they do not get any kind of residence permit and kicking them out. Those who come here are then chosen by Finns to come.

    -“If a person believes that fifty-year-old women from the Middle East should never be brought to this country refugees because “people of her kind will never adapt,” then we should, in all fairness, apply the same standard to Finns that are not adapted to society: the alcoholics, the long-term middle-aged unemployed, people who suffer from chronic depression as well as a long list of others.”

    It apparently slipped from your mind that those Finns who are not adapted to society are not brought here from anywhere, they are here.

    Could you present me one reasonable reason why Finland, or any other developed nation, should accept in more people who are only strain to social security than we have from domestic sources?

    It is not our duty to feed and clothe every needing person on this planet.

    -“When I asked one of the teachers what should be done, silence answered my question. I asked if we should round up all those we consider “maladapted and/or unadaptable” and deport them back to their war-torn countries? In the case of those Finns we consider marginal from society, should we also lock them up in some asylum or island and throw away the keys so they won’t bother us any longer?”

    Why they should be locked away? We do not lock away unwanted foreigners do we? We send them back to their country of origin where they are free to do as people do in that country. It is not OUR problem their native country is miserable shithole and it is not OUR problem that people who ran away from there did not have common sense to adapt to country which is not miserable like their country of origin and does not tolerate behavior found in their country of origin.

    Again, I cannot see what Finns do wrong by demanding immigrants and refugees to adjust to our existing conditions, after all those conditions are superior to conditions in country of origin since they came here.

    And if they aren’t, immigrants and refugees are quite free to return to where they came from.

    -“I have long said that Finns who support the deportation of maladapted immigrants should also support the deportation of maladapted Finns back to the Central Siberian lands of their ancestors. Then again, I’m not holding my breath; the chances of the average redneck ever developing such coherence are essentially nil.”

    I in turn am not holding my breath waiting for you to post something intelligent.

    Finns who are natives to this land are native to this land. Ancestors may have lived elsewhere, but that was millenia ago.

    If we keep going with the line you “enlightened” have, we should deport everyone to Africa since that is where earliest ancestors lived. Or drown them to sea since early life on this planet, and thus our ancestors, took place in Ocean.

    It is one thing to deport Somali who commits crime and refuses to integrate to society into Somalia, where he originated not one lifetime ago and whole different to go to your level of idiocy and try to say that Finns should be deported to Siberia.

    • Enrique

      –You mean people who WORK with these people say they never adapt… So, shock and horror, people who have closest and best knowledge on failure of multicultural society do not say what you want to hear!

      No, Tiwaz, they are poor teachers who fail before they begin because they have preconceived ideas. Imagine how much harm their attitudes would do at school? Some of the classmates will be failures, they’d say. I don’t know about you, but I have seen enough of these types of teachers in my lifetime.

  4. Jonas

    I think Martin-Éric has hit the nail on the head in his remarks. Thors really does have a good idea (better than any previous person in charge of refugee and wider immigration policy) of what is needed to be done. And, just as M-E says, every-time she tries to introduce reforms, she is greeted by a tide of irrelevant fears, a mass of hysteria, irrationality and down right insanity. She has come to be vilified by many because, as M-E says, even bringing up migrants of any nature is something to be immediately shot down by many. I think she is extremely frustrated with her job because of the operating parameters she finds herself in. It’s pretty disgusting that the other parties in government, but particularly the Centre party, have so freely been able to react with non-relevant scaremongering to each and any of her proposals. Yes, Thors is responsible for migration, but Centre’s leadership also signed up to the same government programme! But I guess it’s too much to expect Centre’s useless, tired, populist leadership to act responsibly and remind their parliamentarians of that.

    • Enrique

      Hi Jonas, nice to see you here. I read an interesting post in your blog, Svenskfinland in English, about changing the name of the Swedish People’s Party to the Liberal Party. I think that Finland really needs a liberal party during these times.

      I understand that Thors is really under the gun due to the recession and politicians using the immigrant- or refugee-bashing card to get votes. The ONLY parties that have the right approach to immigration and refugee issues in Finland are the Greens, Swedish People´s Party and the Left Wing Alliance. All the rest have their issues. A good example of the poor atmosphere was the Sello Mall killings and the reaction of the government, especially that of Interior Minister Anne Holmlund (Kokoomus), who called for tighter controls.

      With the country in a recession, some groups such as politicians believe that their racism is justified. It is a carte blanche to bash immigrants and refugees.

  5. Tony Garcia

    …” people working with immigrants and refugees that some national groups should never be brought to this country because they will never adapt to our way of life.”

    So they are professionals working full time with these people and they don’t know what they are talking. Sorry Enrique, honestly, what do you expect people to think after reading this? You know better than them? Really?

    Multiculturalists never stop amazing me. They are ready to discard any evidence against their religion, no matter how solid it is. I think this post is a master peace with shows brilliantly how the multicultural mindset works.

    “…deport them back to their war-torn countries?”

    Sorry but this is a typical childish approach. Just the same when Twiaz said we should deport criminals you come with the “deport who got a traffic ticket”. It just sound like someone who can’t fight the idea, so need to use this kind of non-sense. Punster you are spot on mate.

    Well said Tiwaz, the people who work closely with this people are saying we shouldn’t get them, if they work with them they know best. And if they are exposing an inconvenient truth, well…

    However, it’s very important that we remember the discussion from the previous post so the puzzle can start to fit. This is not about solve the any problem, it’s time already to drop this mask, this is about change this country’s ethnic and cultural makeup, and for that those people are just perfect. The last thing you want are people who integrate.

    When we see the real goal pursuit here, what it may look like incoherence starts to make perfect sense.

    • Enrique

      –So they are professionals working full time with these people and they don’t know what they are talking. Sorry Enrique, honestly, what do you expect people to think after reading this? You know better than them? Really?

      Yes, you are right they are professionals but for a person to make such a statement shows, in my opinion, a lack of knowledge about working with immigrants. Certainly a woman from the Middle East in her 50s will find it hard to find a job! This goes also for any fifty year old in today’s Finland. If we accept people to this country certainly we have an obligation to look after their well being just like any member of society.

      That comment by the teacher was like throwing the towel and raising a white flag.

  6. Tony Garcia

    “to accomplish exactly what the population wants (to further limit and restrict the criteria for claiming asylum, and to enable the swift deportation of people repeatedly making unfounded applications)”

    That’s what the population wants, my friend, but not the multicultural lobby. They are fighting, as hard as they can, to prevent this from happening.

    You just need to raise this kind of discussion to see your name followed by the words “bigot” or “racist”.

    • Enrique

      –“to accomplish exactly what the population wants (to further limit and restrict the criteria for claiming asylum, and to enable the swift deportation of people repeatedly making unfounded applications)”

      Tony, I hope you are well. Now we are differentiating between potential immigrants/refugees and those that live here legally. Those that live here should not be the victim of the wrath of opportunistic politicians. Those immigrants and refugees that live here should also have the opportunity to find happiness in this society just like any other person.

      When you speak of the multicultural lobby, I suspect you include those who follow the law (Constitution and Equality Act) and follow noble values such as equality granted in our society. Or maybe you want (willingly or unwillingly) a society that treats one group with a fair amount of equality and another one with wrath and suspicion.

      If the majority of society is against immigration and refugees and for granting them equal rights under the law, why would they mark yours or anyone’s argument as “bigot” or “racist”?

  7. Martin-Éric

    Kokoomus is an odd bird. On one hand, its members include the academical and business crowd that promotes a liberal agenda in support of migrant labor. On the other hand, it also includes policemen and career soldiers whose training is, respectively, to be suspicious of everybody and to shoot the foreign invader.

    • Enrique

      Well put, Martin-Éric. One matter that has surprised me about the geopolitical isolation that Finland faced as the shadow of the former Soviet Union hung deep was that it gave birth to a very provincial and ultranationalistic views of the world. It was a very distant relative of the German Democratic Republic, which is today a breeding ground for racism in Germany. It is the ultranationalistic part of Kokoomus (policemen, army officers etc) that you mention that spoil the party and muddy its reputation as a party that defends and encourages civil liberties. It is the exact difference between the Centre Party members in the countryside and cities. The former are a rural version of Kokoomus’ ultranationalistic wing. By ultranationalism I mean the policy to suspect immigrants, refugees and even foregn investment to the country.

  8. Tiwaz

    -“Those that live here should not be the victim of the wrath of opportunistic politicians. Those immigrants and refugees that live here should also have the opportunity to find happiness in this society just like any other person.”

    And how is this opportunity denied for them? They have OPPORTUNITY, opportunity by definition means POTENTIAL.

    It is again failure and shortcoming of immigrants that they cannot turn that potential into reality.

    You use word opportunity as if it is guarantee that they will find happiness. It is not.

    -“If we accept people to this country certainly we have an obligation to look after their well being just like any member of society.”

    And this is where we go wrong. We accept into this country people who become burden to society because they fail to turn potential into something. Everyone has potential, everyone has opportunity. It is duty of people themselves to grasp this opportunity and make something of themselves.

    50 year old middle eastern woman is essentially tagged as failure. She will not speak Finnish when she arrives (by average), thus she will be unsuitable for most work. She needs to spend 2-3 years learning fluency and that is rather optimistic. Which leaves us about 10 years of working life for her.

    She also most likely lacks any proper education, thanks to wonderful culture of Islamic world. Even after she obtains fluency, she lacks professional skills. This means she is only viable for most basic, most simple duties in Finnish economy. Problem is, because they are so simple jobs anyone can do them. Thus she is bound to hit LOTS of competition. She essentially is set up to fail. Accepting such person into Finland and granting them access to social security is huge mistake.

    -“No, Tiwaz, they are poor teachers who fail before they begin because they have preconceived ideas. ”

    So when you do the same about Finns, it is truth but for teachers who are qualified and work years with immigrants it is just preconceived ideas instead of lesson learned through experience?

    -“Imagine how much harm ther attitudes would do at school?”

    Which came first, failure of students or ideas of teachers? Answer is, failure of students.

    -“Some of the classmates will be failures, they’d say. I don’t know about you, but I have seen enough of these types of teachers in my lifetime.”

    I have seen teachers who are so experienced that they know with very high degree of certainty who will make it and who will not, based on their experience on how similar people have performed in the past.

    Sometimes they are wrong, but every statistic has it’s odd exceptions.

    If 90% of say Indonesians fail in test A repeatedly for years, then it is not preconceived attitude or racism to say that unless Indonesians change radically, 90% of them will fail in future as well.

    It is simple statistics. Of which those teachers are much better aware than you.

    • Enrique

      –And how is this opportunity denied for them? They have OPPORTUNITY, opportunity by definition means POTENTIAL.

      In first place after living and succeeding in a number of countries that I have lived in, I disagree with your affirmation that there is opportunity in Finland. Look at your own stance and the words you use to bash immigrants. Certainly under such a hostile environment people would come out traumatized for life. I want to make it clear to you that I do understand the challenges immigrants face but there is one element that is crucial and missing in Finland: a favorable attitude towards newcomers. Without that the best integration schemes will not succeed.

  9. Martin-Éric

    Tiwaz, please answer these two, just for our enlightenment:

    Let’s say that the Finnish-born and Finnish-schooled child of some random immigrant becomes a burden to Finnish society – either by becoming a severely depraved alcoholic who will never become employable, or worse, by becoming a career criminal. Should that person be deported to wherever their ancestors came from?

    What if that person has deep roots in Finland, being the grand-child of some random immigrant? Should they be deported?

  10. Martin-Éric

    Tony, I’m in contact with both immigrants and those who work with them. I can confirm Enrique’s statements.

    One one side, immigrants indeed often have unrealistic expectations about the ease of moving to and adapting to a new country. This means that even well-meaning western migrant workers can sometimes cry racism, without a proper understanding of what the real issues behind their hardship are, and reach a conclusion that Finland is not for them.

    On the other side, a lot of Finns working with immigrants do it for entirely the wrong reasons. Most of them are full of prejudices against foreigners. Many of them do it simply because it’s a growth employment sector supported by generous funding from a growing variety of EU projects. An alarming number of them do it with the hidden agenda of making every immigrant’s assimilation story a blatant failure, doing everything in their power towards making the idea that all foreigners are a nuisance to Finland into a self-fulfilling prophecy. In a nutshell: not many of them see any good in migration of any kind, not even in migrant workers; people who are genuinely interested in achieving a successful immigrant integration that contributes something meaningful to Finland’s culture and economy are more the exception than the norm.

    • Enrique

      Martin-Éric, you raise a very good point. Even though the government has good intentions and spends a lot of money in training and integration programs, how much does the failure of these schemes is attributable to teachers who are unfit to do the job? This is an area that the government/policy makers could look at with a magnifying glass.

  11. Tony Garcia

    Sorry Martin but I have difficult to believe in a Finnish conspiracy to fail all immigrants. I’m not, by any mean, calling you a liar, for a person to tell a lie he/she must believe that what they are saying isn’t true. So I think you believe in what you are saying, however, it doesn’t make it true.

    You didn’t asked it to me but I’ll hijack your question. Yes a foreigner criminal should be deported as soon as possible, regardless his/her roots in Finland, and I’ll give 2 reasons for that.

    First: a foreigner criminal is damaging to Finland, but far more damaging to good immigrants living in here.

    Second: the fact that our society produces scumbags it doesn’t means that we should import more.

    • Enrique

      –Sorry Martin but I have difficult to believe in a Finnish conspiracy to fail all immigrants. I’m not, by any mean, calling you a liar, for a person to tell a lie he/she must believe that what they are saying isn’t true. So I think you believe in what you are saying, however, it doesn’t make it true.

      Tony, I don’t think that Martin-Éric is referring to any conspiracy never mind ALL teachers. Is there a lot of incompetence in the integration program? YES. Are some teachers with immigrants and refugees because they need a job? YES. Do some loathe immigrants and hate their jobs? YES.

      The problem resides in proper training. Teaching such groups is a totally different story from natives. Add to the problem an ineffective checks and balances system and you can only wonder where the problem resides. Certainly there are all types among immigrants, but the least we could expect from thos on the front line is quiality effective education.

  12. Tony Garcia

    “No, Tiwaz, they are poor teachers who fail before they begin because they have preconceived ideas.”

    Oh, dear… Let me guess they, like Rushdie’s, they also have “issues”. I think Browne’s book explain quite clear what we are seeing here.

    PS. Yes that’s right, he also have “issues”.

    http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/prcs47.php

    “Members of the public, academics, journalists and politicians are afraid of thinking certain thoughts.

    Anthony Browne describes political correctness as a ‘heresy of liberalism’ (p.2) under which ‘a reliance on reason has been replaced with a reliance on the emotional appeal of an argument’ (p.6). Adopting certain positions makes the politically correct feel virtuous, even more so when they are preventing the expression of an opinion that conflicts with their own: ‘political correctness is the dictatorship of virtue’.

    Whether an argument is true or not is a secondary consideration to whether it fits with the PC view of the world:

    In the topsy-turvy politically correct world, truth comes in two forms: the politically correct, and the factually correct. The politically correct truth is publicly proclaimed correct by politicians, celebrities and the BBC even if it is wrong, while the factually correct truth is publicly condemned as wrong even when it is right. Factually correct truths suffer the disadvantage that they don’t have to be shown to be wrong, merely stated that they are politically incorrect. To the politically correct, truth is no defence; to the politically incorrect, truth is the ultimate defence. (p.7)”

    • Enrique

      Tony, although political correctness is awkward and unwarranted, I totally disagree with the statement by this publication: ‘Members of the public, academics, journalists and politicians are afraid of thinking certain thoughts’ (p.xii). How is it possible, then, that at http://www.civitias.org.uk you can actually read a lot of NOT politically correct opinion. Take a look at the BNP site and you will find pretty strong articles. So, Tony, no, there is no “conspiracy” between journalists. When I speak about different groups I don’t like to bash heads. Because I do not do so am I now a victim of political correctness?

  13. Tony Garcia

    I’m glad we got it already. I couldn’t believe it’s just that obvious. Immigrants are failing due a conspiracy between teachers, social workers, politicians and others. Also because Finnish people is intolerant and racist. All explained.

    Of course this…

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qt1pm

    has nothing to do with that. This is just another “media fabrication”, obviously.

    Just a little quote…

    “He finds a generation that has shed the moderate Islam their parents brought to this country, and instead have adopted a faith that they believe compels them to stand apart from Britain and its values.”

    Yes… incompetent teachers, nothing makes more sense.

    • Enrique

      –I’m glad we got it already. I couldn’t believe it’s just that obvious. Immigrants are failing due a conspiracy between teachers, social workers, politicians and others. Also because Finnish people is intolerant and racist. All explained.

      Tony, you are the only one who made such a conclusion. Nobody is speaking of a consipracy. Do Finns have a favorable attitude towards refugees and immigrants? There are polls and studies that substantiate that Finns are not that excited about newcomers to their country.

    • Enrique

      –Of course this…http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qt1pm has nothing to do with that. This is just another “media fabrication”, obviously.

      Thank you for sending the link. However, I was not able to see it in my area. Why is it that everytime you speak of immigrants, you always go back to the worst side a group? Certainly immigrants form a very varied and rich group of people from many backgrounds and cultures.

  14. Martin-Éric

    Enrique, I would not go as far as to entertain the notion of a conspiracy against immigrants. However, I have repeatedly heard candid comments from various key players in the immigration affairs (government officials and companies that produce immigrant services) that seriously make me doubt the sincerity of their intentions and, in some cases, the understated goal precisely was to demonstrate that specific immigrant groups are doomed to fail in integrating Finnish society.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique, I would not go as far as to entertain the notion of a conspiracy against immigrants. However, I have repeatedly heard candid comments from various key players in the immigration affairs (government officials and companies that produce immigrant services) that seriously make me doubt the sincerity of their intentions and, in some cases, the understated goal precisely was to demonstrate that specific immigrant groups are doomed to fail in integrating Finnish society.

      DITTO, Martin-Éric. Taking into account the inefficiencies, lack of experience and, most important, the wish to really help in some cases, the easiest thing to do is blame “stupid refugees,” or “hey, I give up. These people will never adapt to Finland.” And I am NOT speaking of a conspiracy.

  15. Tony Garcia

    “So, Tony, no, there is no conspiracy between journalists”

    And who said there is? And who say ALL people are complying? There are honourable journalists and politicians who stand up and speak the truth. However what happen to them and they do that? PC Gestapo will be ready to act. Many journalists just let it be to avoid the hassle.

    The worse censorship is the one self imposed. You know, I can live with our difference of opinions, however your ability of denying reality is something quite frustrating.

  16. Tony Garcia

    “Why is it that everytime you speak of immigrants, you always go back to the worst side a group?”

    Sorry but I’m lost… Again…

    Aren’t we talking about why some immigrants don’t (or refuse to) integrate? So blame the Finnish system is fine but when I shown the other side is “why do I that?”.

    I don’t know… why do I do that? Because I hate immigrants? I guess…

    • Enrique

      –Aren’t we talking about why some immigrants don’t (or refuse to) integrate? So blame the Finnish system is fine but when I shown the other side is “why do I that?”.

      Tony, I think we are going around in circles with this comment. In the first place, and as far as I understand our civil liberties, people are guaranteed a number of inalienable rights such as freedom of worship, speech etc. When you speak of “integration” it does not mean that they give up their religion and culture and embrace ours. This means that we also share public spaces (we don´t run home close our doors and practice our culture sub rosa). In real life, and if we want to work for someone, we have to integrate to the work culture (be on time, be diligent, customer service etc).

      I went to the BNP site and noticed were some of your comments come from such as “why are we called racist if we complain?” This appears to be a far-right perception of things. I disagree with you that we all hold our breaths and are careful about the media and civil rights groups lashing out at us because we cannot debate an issue such as immigration and its impact on society.

      I remember you once showed a picture of idyllic England of the 1950s; I guess this suggested that people were content, white kids playing with Dinky Toys while their parents drank tea with good friends and chatted the afternoon away. Tony, do you really think that this type of society ever existed? What about the “multculturalism” (using your definition) British colonialism imposed on people in Asia and Africa? Or did they think that they could conquer most of the world and keep England hermetically sealed from the outside world (couple drinking tea?).

      The issue is simple in my opinion Tony: We live in a globalized world and in ever-culturally diverse societies. The bond that keeps our societies from going at each other’s throat is tolerance and REAL mutual respect. As our societies become more diverse it also places a lot more challenges on it. I believe that our Western, democratic liberal values are strong enough to deal with these challenges.

  17. Tony Garcia

    “Because I do not do so am I now a victim of political correctness?”

    I really don’t think so.

    Enrique, let me be very clear here, I never doubt that you really believe in what you preach. Anyone can see that you do it deeply. And I defend you right to express this believe and make your case to many people you see necessary.

    However I also defend the right of those who disagree with this ideology to also speak their minds and public make their case. After that it’s up the each and every one of us to make our minds and demand our politicians to make policies with we believe are more appropriate. That’s called democracy and as long as live in one I think we should use it. We can’t forget that Sharia may be just a few refugees away.

    And you know why? Simple, you say “I believe in that kind of society”, so are talking about a belief system, but how about the facts? Unfortunately, my friend, they don’t back it up. That’s why the best way to fight multiculturalism is using reality. We see clearly here how reality is first denied, then trivialized, but never confronted.

    The media establishment has given multiculturalists all space they need to speak on behalf their belief system, but at the same time all those who disagree with it have been branded “bigot” or “racist” and not given space to say what they disagree with. Why? You just can’t fight reality with belief. It’s a knockout in the first round.

    That’s why I call people to activism. Spread the word and let people make their own minds. After that it’s the ballot who will speak. And usually speaks loud and clear. For those who are in doubt its power check what happened 2 weeks ago in Massachusetts. Mr Barack “Socialist” Obama got a beautiful “No way buddy” and now he’s waving goodbye to his idea to take over 1/6 of American economy.

    I don’t know much about Canada, so I won’t argue with about that, if you say so, it’s so. But I have a deep experience in how things are being managed in places like UK and Ireland. Not from reading about but from living in these places for many years. Something I know – I don’t want that for my children. And if enough Finns don’t want that either, you like it or not, we don’t need to have it.

  18. Tiwaz

    -“Let’s say that the Finnish-born and Finnish-schooled child of some random immigrant becomes a burden to Finnish society – either by becoming a severely depraved alcoholic who will never become employable, or worse, by becoming a career criminal. Should that person be deported to wherever their ancestors came from?”

    Citizen or non-citizen?
    If they are citizen there is nothing to do except treat them as such. And thus cannot be deported.

    If they are not citizens, if requirements for deportation are fulfilled they can and should be deported.

    -“What if that person has deep roots in Finland, being the grand-child of some random immigrant? Should they be deported?”

    Same applies.

    Citizenship makes the difference. Nothing else. Natives are citizens by default, if children of immigrants are not. It is not our, or Finnish, problem.

  19. Tiwaz

    -”
    And why do you have only 2% foreigners in Finland?”

    Is there reason why we should have more? Specially since as it is we do not have enough jobs for all the people present already, not to mention how large portions of existing foreigner population are only strain on Finnish system as they fail to learn the language and fail to learn the culture. And many on top of that has no useful professional skills.

    And as I have repeatedly said… Problem of immigrant not learning is much more in the immigrant end. People can be self taught if they have motivation and time. And what else immigrants have if not time if they are not hard at work? At that point problem comes with motivation.

    Should there be mandatory “motivational speeches” for immigrants then?

    So how would increasing this amount help Finland?

    • Enrique

      –And why do you have only 2% foreigners in Finland?”

      This is a revealing question that suggests a number of things: (1) There isn’t a flood of people wanting to come here; (2) Apart from the weather, high taxes, language and anti-immigrant stance of some Finns, immigrants would find it much easier to move to countries that already have an immigrant presence; (3) Finland will have to do some hard marketing to attract labor immigrants to this country.

      According to the Population Register Centre , the amount of foreign nationals living permanently during 2008-09 in Finland was 143,256, or 2.7% of the population. That compares with 132,708 (2.5%) from a year ago.

  20. Martin-Éric

    Actually, natives are NOT citizens by default, because Finland defines citizenship according to bloodline, not according to the place of birth.

    I have a friend whose parents both immigrated to Finland from Austria in the 70’s. He was born and raised in Finland, did all of his schooling in Finland and has difficulties speaking anything else than Finnish. However, much to everyone’s surprise, he’s considered by Finland as an Austrian citizen. Why? Because he has no Finnish roots. He thus had to separately request Finnish citizenship, in a situation where Finland already is the only country he’s ever known.

    The Finnish law is very clear on this: any child born in Finland is presumed to have the nationality that his parents had at their birth. If they were both foreign citizens at the time of their birth, they too are foreign citizens. The only exception the law makes to this is that if someone is born in Finland to stateless parents or in a situation where no other citizenship could be determined at birth time, then they become Finnish citizens at birth as a last resort.

    This situation already applies to several Somalian children whose parents immigrated as stateless refugees. They were born in Finland and, Somalia currently being a divided land without any formal administration in some areas, they are unable to acquire “Somalian” citizenship at birth, so the Finnish state has no alternative but to grant them Finnish citizenship by birth.

  21. Tony Garcia

    “When you speak of integration it does not mean that they give up their religion and culture and embrace ours.”

    Has the Sikh, Indus or Jews done that? Have they succeeded or failed in their integration into the British society? Are they an asset or a burden? How the general British people fells about them? How do they few about the general British people?

    Are those valid questions? Will answering it help us to understand what we are talking about here?

  22. Tony Garcia

    Sorry about the video, my wife also has problems trying to watch Finnish channels from here. Here a Mail article about this BBC documentary.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1251287/Generation-Jihad-Young-people-brainwashed-Al-Qaeda-propaganda-internet.html

    It’s about the truth you just won’t admit, what makes we run in circle as you say. You insist in blame the system for they failed integration, the facts proves that’s not the case. This documentary shows how terrorists are recruiting Muslims from British universities, what debunks you “education and job” theory.

    Those people will never integrate because they don’t want to. They will always live here but have their minds in Pakistan or Somalia. They hate what we are and they will do anything to transform our society, what, in fact, makes them so attractive to multiculturalists. They aren’t “waist assets” like myself or Willy. They do have education and jobs, so based on your opinion they are very well “integrated”, aren’t they? So now it’s just step aside and let they to their job, isn’t it?

    However ordinary good people, locals and immigrants alike, just don’t think so and don’t want these people around.

    But I really don’t have any hope you will ever admit that, we all here know that you will keep denying reality and keep on blaming the Finnish system. If that makes you happy, fine by me, however many good Finns are reading your blog, and it’s to these people I write. Some will probably believe you are right, however I now that many won’t.

    And, sorry but my comments aren’t coming from the BNP, is this your new strategy? Now will you try to remove my “mask” and show my “real racist face”? Sorry mate but one thing I have is guts, and with that I have no problem in being what I’m.

    I do agree with many (not all) things BNP says. That also goes to Soini and Halla-aho. I said this here many times and I have no problem with that. I did celebrate Soini election, even in this very same blog, and after we move back to Finland this summer PS won’t find a more active and passionate supporter, believe me. They are the only way to turn the tide.

    But are the BNP and myself the only people you see complaining about politically correctness? Are you sure? Oh Well…

    • Enrique

      –here know that you will keep denying reality and keep on blaming the Finnish system.

      Denying reality? I am trying to get to the reasons and I am blaming the Finnish system as well as those who are not self-starters and proactive. However, we cannot expect that everyone is. It is like being unemployed. The easiest thing for the employment official is to ask you to establish a business. For some it may be a good option while for others it is not.

      As you know, I have always respected what you think although I disagree with it. It would be stupid of me to ask people to support free speech and other civil liberties and then be the first one to limit it. If you agree with many things that the BNP, Soini or Halla-aho says, then that is your right. I think that is fair enough but then allow me to debate with you openly what I think.

      The comment “compalining because you will be branded a racist” was used in quite a few BNP videos I watched. I wonder if I can hear the same comment if I visit a Labor or Tory website. In Finland, such a stance is rare; it appears to be a BNP British thing. Correct me if I am wrong.

      I am the first one to take my hat off for anyone who has succeeded in any society. Good for you and I hope your exploits continue.

    • Enrique

      –Those people will never integrate because they don’t want to. They will always live here but have their minds in Pakistan or Somalia.

      True, Tony, but if there is hostility and discrimination why would you want to integrate into such a system. About having their minds in Pakistan or Somalia, well that is their right and it shows a part of an immigrant´s life (one foot here and another one there). People, even Finns, live that way when they reside in foreign countries. Is it a sign of maladaption? I don’t like to live that way because I believe that one’s home is where he is. He/she must live to the fullest. However, if I live in a society that I consider hostile and that is always remdning me where I am from, then it maybe healthy to think about one’s home country where the “grass is greener (sic).”

  23. Tony Garcia

    “I think that is fair enough but then allow me to debate with you openly what I think.”

    Could you please check lines 8 and 9 from comment 30? Is this the first time I wrote this here? Have I ever written anything to the contrary? Even one single time? Or you just “know” me, as you do the others?

    Sorry but it deeply insults me when you somehow say that I don’t respect your right to speak your mind.

    The point is, I don’t know what Griffin, Soini, or Halla-aho will do if ever in power, but neither do you. What we do know is what they speak publicly and that is the opposite of what you are accusing them.

    However a group is publicly against our freedom, they go to the streets of Brittan with their big banners – “Freedom go to hell”, “Sharia for UK”, “Islam will dominate Europe”.

    They DO want to remove our freedoms and they DO say it loud and clear, however you have never, even one single bloody time, spoken against them, quite the opposite, when I quote them, you always find a way to blame it on us, as you just did.

    If you really want to fight for freedom, my friend, you should first speak against those who are saying that they will destroy it. In my opinion, only after that, you can go against those you think may do it. Otherwise, I’m sorry to say, you lose moral authority to do so.

    “True, Tony, but if there is hostility and discrimination why would you want to integrate into such a system”

    The Sikh, Hindu, Jew question is still open. Or have they been welcomed with flowers and hugs?

    • Enrique

      –Sorry but it deeply insults me when you somehow say that I don’t respect your right to speak your mind.

      I’m sorry if you thought I suggested this but I never did. You have always respected what I have said, albeit sometimes heatedly, as I have. But this is fine with me and I am sure with you as well.

  24. Tony Garcia

    I, my friend, have body in Dublin, but not only mind is in Tampere, also my heart. However…

    Has this prevented me from integrate seamlessly into the Irish society?

    Has this prevented me from being a productive member of this society?

    Has this prevented me from live by this society’s laws and values?

    Has this made me demand the right to play by Finnish or Brazilian rules?

    Has this made me demand that my children are treated differently at school?

    Has this made me complain of unfairness or demand appeasement of any sort?

    Has this made me demand that any Irish celebration must be changed or cancelled because it’s offensive to me?

    Unfortunately there is no point in saying this to Enrique, however to the Finns that may be reading this…

    There are immigrants and “immigrants”. Finland is still a sovereign country, so you still have the right to choose if you want just the first kind, the second, both, or ever either. Think about it, then use the next election to make your voice heard. Don’t forget, Sharia may be just a few refugees away…

  25. xyz

    I also failed to learn Finnish. You know why? Because I believe it is waste of time. Last time when I went to the labour office in Helsinki I asked them what kind of jobs I could get if I take this intensive Finnish Course for Immigrants. She said that they have a shortage in Cleaners. Now I am in Ireland and have a proper job in an international company. I am not a native English speaker and I think it is great here.

    • Enrique

      xyz, I believe for special cultural and historical reasons there is a lot of language discrimination in Finland. You can see it when applying for citizenship, for example. It is a huge deal in my opinion. Finns even collect data on mother tongue in their population census. Even though I am exaggerating (maybe), the idea is that you have to speak Finnish almost like a native to be accepted. Somebody should study this silent culprit, which may play a bigger role than skin color in discrimination. But what happens if you are black and speak elementary Finnish? What about if you are black and speak Finnish as a native?

  26. Tony Garcia

    xyz, if I may say, I commend your attitude. In my honest opinion other immigrants should look carefully at your example.

    You went there, look around, didn’t like or didn’t agree or didn’t want that kind of life for you, so you moved on, now you are happy.

    Well done mate.

  27. Tiwaz

    -“Now I am in Ireland and have a proper job in an international company. I am not a native English speaker and I think it is great here.”

    Are you fluent English speaker?
    WERE you fluent English speaker when you got your job?

    That might be the difference.
    If you speak fluent Finnish, manage to fit in in behavior… Odds are you would find plenty of other jobs available IF you have suitable skills as well.

    But since you found your happiness in Britain, good for you. If you can’t fit into country, find new one where you can fit in.

    Commendable attitude.

    • Enrique

      –If you speak fluent Finnish, manage to fit in behavior….

      Tiwaz, honestly, do you actually believe that people who have a profession, have travelled and survived in different countries need that type of advice?! It is a slap to their intelligence. Maybe you should learn to adjust your behavior to fit in a globalized setting.

  28. xyz

    My native language is not English.
    My Finnish friend found a job in Switzerland last week and she does not speek any German.

    What is your problem with your behaviour all the time? Do you think we are all monkeys just we come from different countries? In my team are 10 nationalities and we have no problems working together.

    My girlfriend is Finnish. This was the only reason why I moved there and not to steal your non-existing jobs in Finland.

    • Enrique

      xyz, Tiwaz doesn’t think we come from different countries but from “different trees.” 🙂

  29. xyz

    Tony: Congratulation that you were able to integrate into Ireland. That’s an achievement. Who doesn’t speak English nowadays? 🙂 Cool your heart is in Tampere…sounds like your Pakistani in Finland who has his heart in Pakistan.

  30. Tony Garcia

    xyz, cheers mate. You are right about Ireland, it’s a lovely place, however you’re also right about my heart, it’s indeed in Tampere, that’s why we are moving back there this summer.

    I think you and I are great examples for many immigrates around. If you don’t like the place you are, just go and find a better one, and always go where you hear is.

    But never demands appeasement from the host country, otherwise you are going to fail big time. I hope some will follow our examples.

    All the best for you here in Ireland.

  31. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, as I said before, I know nothing about Canada, but I was reading Mark Steyn book – America Alone, with I highly recommend to anyone, and he, who is a Canadian, mention this Pakistani Muslim who lives in Canada for many years and who is a highly educated and very successful professional. I went to check what Mr Kanwar had to say about multiculturalism in Canada, and apparently his opinion about it is slightly different than yours.

    He also denounce politically correctness, and, as far as I know, he isn’t either British, living in Brittan or a BNP member.

    I think you guys reading this should have a look on what Mr Kanwar has to say, just in case. Few quotes…

    http://www.artsandopinion.com/2009_v8_n4/kanwar.htm
    “As a social scientist, I have been opposing political correctness, lack of assimilation of new immigrants to mainstream Canada, hyphenated Canadian identity, and, among other things, the lack of patriotism to our great nation.”
    “We are restricted to do things the Canadian way lest we offend the minorities. We cannot even say Merry Christmas”

    “We cannot publically question certain foreign social customs, traditions, and values that do not fit in the Canadian web. Rather than encouraging the new immigrants to adjust to Canada, we tolerate peculiar ways of doing things”

    “In a multicultural society such as Canada, it is the responsibility of minorities to adjust to the majority.”

    “I once supported multiculturalism in Canada because I believed then that it gave us a sense of pluralism and diversity. However, I have observed and experienced that multiculturalism has encouraged convolution of our mainstream culture. It has also been exploited by some sub-cultural and religious groups in terms of government grants.“

    • Enrique

      –“As a social scientist, I have been opposing political correctness, lack of assimilation of new immigrants to mainstream Canada, hyphenated Canadian identity, and, among other things, the lack of patriotism to our great nation.”

      Does his response show a great amount of frustration? In Canada, like in any Western democracy, he has the right to live the way he wishes. Does he have a right to impose his view on others. I doubt it, unless he wants to form a political party and change things democratically. But I doubt that he can impose by democratic legal means what he is preaching. One of the first questions I would ask him is: Will your ideas work? Is the medicine worse than the cure?

      In a democratic society we have the right to question anything we please. If I do not want to sing the national anthem or I don’t want to be part of your patriotism, it is my decision. My freedom.

      In every group there are misfits but you cannot stigmatize a whole group as a result.

      Since I live in a democratic society, I abide by the rules and obey the law. I have rights and obligations. As long as I do this, I am in the right.

      Tony, have you ever thought the price society would end up paying if you forced and imposed one culture to abide by another? That is why the rule of law and mutual respect are paramount. It must be taught at schools and it must be our way of life.

  32. Tiwaz

    -“My native language is not English.”

    I never asked if you were. But guess this answers the question I asked.

    I asked if you were FLUENT in English.

    -“My Finnish friend found a job in Switzerland last week and she does not speek any German.”

    Swiss have four official languages. Furthermore, never has it been said that it is impossible to obtain job in Finland without speaking the language. It is simply extremely hard.

    -“What is your problem with your behaviour all the time? Do you think we are all monkeys just we come from different countries? In my team are 10 nationalities and we have no problems working together.”

    What is problem with immigrants who only can cobble up sentence “why this is not like at home” or “where can I get job without speaking Finnish”?

    Clearly I do not see all immigrants as monkeys. I have repeatedly for example said that Willie and Tony are prime examples of immigrants that are very, very welcome in Finland.

    It is the condescending attitude many of you have which I have issues with. Immigrants who do not understand that they have to change to fit into Finland, not expect Finland to change to fit them.

    -“Tiwaz, honestly, do you actually believe that people who have a profession, have travelled and survived in different countries need that type of advice?! It is a slap to their intelligence. Maybe you should learn to adjust your behavior to fit in a globalized setting.”

    Clearly they need that advice since they do not figure it out by themselves.

    If they cannot figure it out themselves, then they DO need a slap on their intelligence because they forgot the very basic principles of moving into foreign country.

    Assume nothing.

    Maybe you should learn to adjust your attitude to reality that this is Finland, not some globalilandia. We have our own, distinct and unique language. We have our own, distinct and unique culture. Those are things we Finns hold very dear.

    We will want to speak in our native land our native language. And we will judge people we meet according to our cultural norms. If foreigner is too stupid or lazy to understand, accept and adjust to that then they deserve to be slapped.

    • Enrique

      –Maybe you should learn to adjust your attitude to reality that this is Finland, not some globalilandia. We have our own, distinct and unique language. We have our own, distinct and unique culture. Those are things we Finns hold very dear.

      I doubt they hold your attitudes dear. And, yes, I respect the laws of the land and expecially the constitution. The problem is you have not even familiarized yourself with the laws of this land.

  33. Tony Garcia

    “Tony: If you go to another country then you should not blame others to come to your country as well.”

    You are very right, but who has ever done this?

  34. Tony Garcia

    “Does his response show a great amount of frustration?”

    Absolutely, frustrated is exactly what he is. Apparently he once have also been fooled by the multicultural rhetoric, now he are seeing the results and expressing his opinion about it.

    “In Canada, like in any Western democracy, he has the right to live the way he wishes.”

    Absolutely, however when you make a bad choice you are the only one who should carry the responsibility. Unfortunately multiculturalists prefer blame the host country for the results of immigrants bad choices.

    “Does he have a right to impose his view on others.”

    Sorry but since when he’s trying to do that? He’s just giving his opinion about how multiculturalism isn’t doing any good for Canada, and he’s a social scientist, so based on what you have said before his option should count. Or just multiculturalists social scientists opinions count?

    The problem is that if is this kind of opinion comes from a white Christian it makes quite ease to just brand him/her racist or bigot, then move on preaching the wonders of multiculturalism, however if it comes from a minority it makes the job a lot harder, doesn’t ?

    “Tony, have you ever thought the price society would end up paying if you forced and imposed one culture to abide by another?”

    Yes, and also all the people I have already quoted all these months. The result would be well worth the price. However there is a far easier way of doing things, you just need a sensible immigration policy, so you won’t be needing to impose anything to anyone.

    “Since I live in a democratic society, I abide by the rules and obey the law. I have rights and obligations. As long as I do this, I am in the right.”

    Amen to that. That’s just what all of us here have been defending. If all immigrants would follow your example Finland would be a better place.

  35. Martin-Éric

    I can only applaud Anwar for his uncompromising stance. He believes in his rights to be Indian and Muslim, but not at the expense of the Canadian citizenry’s cohesion as a nation. That’s something I can only agree with. It’s also refreshing to notice that he remains aware of Canada’s failures on this aspect, all while being a proud Canadian.

    If you think of it, Anwar’s perspective is the same as Tiwaz’ “maassa, maan tavalla” chorus, but minus the Halla-Ahoesque paranoia and trolling that is so typical of Tiwaz. (no offense meant)

    Heck, transpose Anwar in Finland ans he would make a fantastic candidate for Kokoomus or even for Perussuomalaiset!

    • Enrique

      –I can only applaud Anwar for his uncompromising stance. He believes in his rights to be Indian and Muslim, but not at the expense of the Canadian citizenry’s cohesion as a nation.

      How do minorities and immigrants threaten Canada´s coheision? Is it because they have a hyphenated identity? Possibly the right way to look at it is that we are ALL Canadians, or part of this community, but still we are different and we accept that as well.

  36. xyz

    well if you say immigrants should follow my example and leave your country. Maybe they have a reason to live in Finland like me who wanted to live with my girlfriend. I just dont feel like becoming a cleaner even if i learn this language. Have you cleaned in Ireland? Suppose not…

  37. Tony Garcia

    Sorry xyz, but something is a bit mixed up here, my country? Finland? I’m Brazilian, who lived for many years as an immigrant in Finland and never learned to speak Finnish, BTW.

    Nop, I never cleaned either there or here in Ireland. And have never got a cent from the dole either.

    28 days after moved to Finland from London with my Finnish wife I was starting my first working day as a engineer in Hervanta. When I left, 3 years ago due a very generous contract here in Ireland, I was already a senior architect what I still am. And what I’ll still be after move back there this summer.

    About what I said… I’m say the immigrants who are not happy with their host country should live, not all. Furthermore, I wasn’t happy with my own country, so I left, and found a place where I’m.

    I hope we can make this clear.

  38. xyz

    Ah ok, sorry seems that I mixed something up. Well if you can get a job then its fine and I dont want to complain. Maybe I was just not lucky enough then.Just found it strange that the labor office told me that cleaning is all I can do.

  39. Martin-Éric

    xyz: the labor office is the last place you should trust for career prospects. As far as they’re concerned, anyone not worthy of being an almighty bureaucrat like they are ought to be kissing asses and cleaning toilets for a living, regardless of whether they are Finns or not.

  40. Tony Garcia

    “…but not at the expense of the Canadian citizenry’s cohesion as a nation.”

    Spot on Martin, This is a crucial issue that multiculturalists insist in trivialize. We don’t need to suppress our cultural background, but we need to draw a line on the sand, some things we can bring in but some we just can’t. The whole issue starts when multiculturalists insists that WE (immigrants) should the one who decide what to bring in and what to leave behind. I don’t agree with this at all, and won’t ever.

    I’m a Brazilian, therefore I still like bossa-nova, freezing cold beer and women with big arses. That hasn’t been any problem to my integration into the Finnish society. However be on time is a joke in my country, should I demand to be allowed to be late because this is what I’m? Wille another good immigrant from US gave us here another example about being allowed to smack children in US but not in Finland. His point was the same “should I be allowed, of course not”.

    If you fight against segregation and unity what good can Muslim only swimming classes do to achieve this? Who is pro segregation and who is against?

    Now let me show you another example from Canada, I’m start to like research that country, I think we yet have a lot to discover from there. This is from Steyn book where I heard from Kanwar…

    “Dr. Mahfooz Kanwar, a sociology professor at Mount Royal College in Calgary, went along to a funeral at the city’s largest mosque and was discombobulated when the man who led the prayers–in Urdu–said, “Oh, God, protect us from the infidels, who pollute us with their vile ways.” Dr. Kanwar said, “How dare you attack my country,” and pointed out to the crowd that he’d known this man for thirty years, most of which time he’d been living on welfare and thus the food on his table came courtesy of the taxes of the hardworking infidels. As Licia Corbella wrote in the Calgary Sun: “Guess which of the two men is no longer
    welcome at the Sarcee Trail mosque?”

    • Enrique

      –Spot on Martin, This is a crucial issue that multiculturalists insist in trivialize. We don’t need to suppress our cultural background, but we need to draw a line on the sand, some things we can bring in but some we just can’t.

      I think the correct term is living in the same society and accepting each other. In the United States, for example, you have blacks and Hispanics that have lived their for generations and still are marginalized. Lost opportunities, discrimination, assimilation? Here is a good example hat assimilation does not work. Since when do “multculturalists” decide what immigrants bring in and bring out?

      Could you explain, Tony, what multiruclturalism is and what does it mean?

  41. Tony Garcia

    xyz, the person at the labour office was an arse alright, but just for the argument sake, have you had experiences with public servants here in Ireland?

    My wife and I have had many and most of it were quite unpleasant, to say the least.

    The problem is that public servants have stability, what you and I in the private sector don’t, so while we seek excellence and quality to keep our salaries coming every month, they don’t give a shit.

  42. xyz

    Tony thats right. I don’t have any experience here in Ireland with public servants. Most likely it is the same. Anyway, its great that you will start working in Tampere. I was not so lucky with jobs there so far. Only temp jobs and the last half year there was no job at all. Anyway, I also see it as a chance. Have never worked in Ireland before so its also a nice experience for me as well 🙂

  43. Tony Garcia

    “Since when do multculturalists decide what immigrants bring in and bring out?”

    Sorry but I think you misread what I wrote, let me quote myself…

    “…multiculturalists insists that WE (immigrants) should the one who decide …”

    “Could you explain, Tony, what multiruclturalism is and what does it mean?”

    Different cultures living in the same country, what I think it means different cultures living in the same country.

    “I think the correct term is living in the same society and accepting each other.”

    Would you think the Imam from the Sarcee Trail mosque, the largest in Calgary, home of 75.000 Muslims, agrees with you? How about some, or perhaps many, of his followers?

    • Enrique

      Tony, the term multicultural means a lot of things to a lot of people. I think it has three important elements: (1) it offers a tailor-made solution to a group’s integration into society; (2) it allows minorities to share public spaces through their culture; (3) protects minority rights (contrary to assimilation). These above-mentioned aspects are not a full list. How does it differ from your view of immigrants in society? I think it has a lot to do with how we see people integrated in society. Since you favor assimilation, you believe that people from other cultures must strive to be part of the majority culture; the majority continues to dominate public spaces, politics, economics and society in general. If you look at society in the past decades it has become more diverse in many respects and has passed laws to protect this right to be different.
      Living in a society that aims to use multiculturalism as a social policy does not mean that in x amount of years the country changes its language but takes into account other groups living in society. I think this is fair.
      One of the matters where I am not convinced by assimilation is if it has ever worked. If it has, it has been slow and painful taking generations to reach. Contrary to the 1970s, there are way more immigrants living in foreign countries due to globalization and economic growth. If you look at the Finnish constitution, for example, it does protect minoritiy rights. The law is a two-way street. I don’t care if 75,000 Mulsims disagree with me as you point out. They are obliged to live under the rule of the law, which also defends their religious freedom as ours, or yours.
      Another matter I disagree with you is your solution to the problem: love-it-or-leave-it approach. Our societies — hopefully — have overcome this type of approach to difference.
      I think we are, therefore, looking at different approaches on how to live in greater harmony with different minorities and groups. These approaches are imperfect because they are human made.
      I strongly believe that the biggest culprits to our pathway to living in harmony (both sides) are ignorance, bigotry and simple dominance. Sharing society means sharing its political and economic power as well.

  44. Tiwaz

    -“Finland signed 2006 a Convention on the Protection and Promotion of the Diversity of Cultural Expressions….”

    Which is respected fully as it is. Problem is that you and Enrique have fantasy that it means “Foreigners must be able to act just like at home and receive same treatment as at home.” That is not granted anywhere.

    -“I doubt they hold your attitudes dear.”

    You should meet some Finns if you think we do not love our language and culture. We are one of the most patriotic people in the world.

    -“And, yes, I respect the laws of the land and expecially the constitution. The problem is you have not even familiarized yourself with the laws of this land.”

    Problem is that you think there are things in those laws which are not there!

    You HAVE right to act like an ass if that is your cultural trait.

    You do NOT have right to be treated according to your culture in Finland. As in, if being an ass is tolerated there, do not presume it is here.

    That is the thing you people have to learn fast. In Finland, we judge you based on OUR culture. As we are guys who hire you to work, that means you have to fulfill OUR expectations. And OUR expectations are built upon OUR cultural norms.

    You cannot go to Finnish job interview with same attitude and behavior you would go to American interview. Different country means they want to see and hear different things.

    I know this, I adjust my behavior to fit the requirements of local culture. But apparently you Enrique and many other immigrants do not grasp that you cannot live as if you still are in Waziristan when you come to Finland.

    And then you complain that Finns are racist because they do not hire people who do not either know or bother to behave properly.

    • Enrique

      –You should meet some Finns if you think we do not love our language and culture. We are one of the most patriotic people in the world.

      Oh dear, how should I respond to this one? I think that you intentionally twist everything I say (or most of the things I don’t even say!) to fit your very narrow-minded view of things. What a dumb question: do I think Finns don’t love their langauge and culture? Certainly they do and that is great. People from other minorities have the same right as well. The same patriotism you speak of is also a source of pride in other groups. The problem is when you start sticking your views down people’s throat to drive home your point. If you were confdent enough about your culture you would not rage so much. It would not even be an issue.

  45. Tony Garcia

    “Since you favor assimilation, you believe that people from other cultures must strive to be part of the majority culture; the majority continues to dominate public spaces, politics, economics and society in general.”

    What are you talking about? When have I ever said that? If you want to dismiss what I’m saying by inventing straw man, it’s certainly your prerogative, but if want to discuss seriously do it so. BTW Kanwar is a very integrated and active part of his society, and yet we share the same opinion about immigrant integration.

    Anyway you description of multiculturalism is very beautiful, but it brings us to square one, why aren’t Muslims integrating? Who’s fault is?

    When you say that you don’t care if they agree with multiculturalism or not, for me, that means that you want to ask the questions but you aren’t interested in find the answers.

    • Enrique

      –Anyway you description of multiculturalism is very beautiful, but it brings us to square one, why aren’t Muslims integrating? Who’s fault is?

      In first place, Tony, my description of a multicultural society comes from direct experience in the US in the 1960s. Martin Luther King, a giant among men such as Nelson Mandela, who did not take the violent route even though every type of hostility was thrown at them. If they were cynical and had no dreams about a better society where would we be? Don’t underestimate dreams and noble values. They are more powerful than those sowed by hatred and repression. And there are enough examples in history that show that matters can change peacefully or by violence. This is not only a “liberal” view, but of great men like Thomas Jefferson. So, please, don’t dismiss a real social struggle by democratic means as something “beautufiul” and naive. It is the opposite of that. It is a great matter that people can express themselves through democratic institutions.

      One of the matters I squarely disagree with you is your view of Muslims. I think that it is so blurred that you cannot see past that. ALL Muslims are not a threat to our society. There are many who have provided a service and have grown up to be respectable citizens in our society. You even claim that a minority of them are a threat to our society. There are two ways of resolving problems: the long pigheaded way or the short mending way. Anything you throw at people will be thrown back at you, especially hatred.

      You ask me why Muslims “aren’t integrating.” If you speak of the Jihadists what makes them different from people who uphold “our way of life” that spill hatred for other groups? They are from the same place- a bunch of fanatics that have lost touch with reality. Have you ever thought about your stance towards them and how that contributes to improve the situation? I think it only adds fuel to the flames of discord.

  46. Tony Garcia

    And BTW if anyone want to have a interesting picture of what it may be the future, I recommend Steyn’s book. It’s a mix of facts, predictions and, obviously, his opinions, all coming with a good dose of humour. Following a few quotes…

    http://www.amazon.com/America-Alone-End-World-Know/dp/0895260786

    7 percent agree that suicide attacks on civilians in the United Kingdom can be justified in some circumstances, rising to 16 percent for a military target.

    There are, officially, one million Muslims in London, half of them under twenty-five. If 7 percent think suicide attacks on civilians are justified, that’s 70,000 potential supporters in Britain’s capital city. Most of them will never bomb a bus or even provide shelter or a bank account to someone who does. But some of them will. As September 11 demonstrated, you only have to find nineteen stouthearted men, and from a talent pool of 70,000 that’s not bad odds.

    Muslims have assimilated brilliantly, at least when it comes to mastering the principal discourse of the advanced democratic state–the legalisms, victimology, and entitlement culture.

    A terrorist wakes up in Baghdad early Monday morning, straps on the old explosives, and toddles off to blow up some infidels at the gate to the Green Zone, dreaming of getting at least a couple of the virgins in before lunch. But the belt jams and U.S. troops arrest him and he’s stuck on a plane to Gitmo and forty eight hours later he’s whining to his D.C. lawyer about the quality of the chicken chasseur and plotting his Supreme Court case. When they want to, Islamists can assimilate at impressive speed. So we have fire-breathing imams milking Euro-welfare and litigious lobby groups with high-rent legal teams. Neither of these are features of Arab life. Rather, they illustrate how adept Islam is at picking and choosing what aspects of Westernization are useful to it

    • Enrique

      –7 percent agree that suicide attacks on civilians in the United Kingdom can be justified in some circumstances, rising to 16 percent for a military target.

      Tony, after the military steam rolled over left-wing guerillas in Argenitna, they ran out of enemies to justify their autocratic rule. They invented a funny concept called hunting “potential terrorists.” Is that what you are suggesting?

  47. Tony Garcia

    Sorry Enrique, a bit off topic but…

    Are the waters around Malvinas about to get hot again? I think that kind of trouble is the last think we need down there. I wonder if the bloody Chaves is not sticking his nose in this…

    • Enrique

      –Are the waters around Malvinas about to get hot again? I think that kind of trouble is the last think we need down there. I wonder if the bloody Chaves is not sticking his nose in this…

      Unfortunately yes, but it may be a lot of hot air from the Kirchner government trying to rally support for her unpopular government. The military used this in 1982. However, it does not take away Argentina’s claim to the islands which were taken over by the British in 1833. If oil is found it may change the geopolitics quite significantly.

  48. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, after the military steam rolled over left-wing guerillas in Argenitna, they ran out of enemies to justify their autocratic rule. They invented a funny concept called hunting potential terrorists. Is that what you are suggesting?”

    What would be your reaction is a poll showed that 7% of white Europeans think is justified wear white hobes and burn black people at the stake?

    • Enrique

      –What would be your reaction is a poll showed that 7% of white Europeans think is justified wear white hobes and burn black people at the stake?

      Tony, if you look at the United States (and other industrialized countries in Europe) it is starting to look like a real mosaic of people from different backgrounds. The election of a black president with a Muslim name is an example of how much the US has changed. The same matter is happening in Europe and there is nothing to stop it because of globaliztion and we need labor immigration. But this is a normal matter and has happened throughout time in all cultures. If there are ever-growing minorities in these countries what are you going to do? (1) Are you going to kick them out? (2) Are you going to accept them top be part of our society? If you do not accept them and push them to the side by denying their civil liberties they will rise up one day and demand those rights like it or not. The world and culture change. It is, like you pointed out, like the private sector: you have to survive or fail.

    • Enrique

      –What would be your reaction is a poll showed that 7% of white Europeans think is justified wear white hobes and burn black people at the stake?

      These type of people, in my opinion, are a minority and in denial. Culture changes and we must also change with it.

  49. xyz

    You HAVE right to act like an ass if that is your cultural trait.
    -You always talk about behaviour…I don’t want to behave like you talk.

  50. xyz

    I tried to make a conclusion:
    Problem in Finland is that there are almost no jobs and not that they are racist. Youth unemployment is also quite high in Finland and unemploymnent rate is higher than OECD average. How realistic is it to learn fluent Finnish…takes most likely a few years. Is it possible to speak on a native level? No idea. Conclusion: Maybe not a country which you should consider to move to if you want to work (not as cleaner) and you are not a guru in your field. Thats most likely the reason why Finland has only 2 percent immigrants. For ingternational couples it is most likely better to move to another country.

    What are your thoughts about this?

    • Enrique

      xyz, I believe you have touched upon a major problem and sore spot of the Finnish labor market, which are inflexible, heavy and inefficient. How is it possible that we could still continue to have such high unemployment after the recession of the early 1990s and strong economic growth? Answer: because our labor markets don’t function well. If we are fair, maybe some would find it hard to get work in other countries due to lack of adequate professional skills. One of the reasons there is so high unemployment among immigrants has a lot to do with language discrimination. I believe that some Finns look at langauge as people from other countries look at skin color. So, if you speak almost flawless Finnish, you are still at a disadvantage. Another factor that comes into play is the fact that there have been so few immigrants in this country with little political power.
      A home is a place where you have a future. If you can’t find one you should move to another country where there are more opportunities. It is the same advice I would give a reporter going to a war zone: his/her life is more important than a story. Don’t waste you time in a country that does not appreciate you unless you want to change the situation.
      Immigrants are the ones that must change the situation through democratic means and institutions available to us. If we wait for the Finns to do that you might as well fall asleep for generations.

  51. Martin-Éric

    xyz, you’re spot-on about the scarcity of jobs. There’s another reason: even when someone *is* a guru in their own field, the salary they will make in Finland, even before taxes, is much lower than in other OECD countries, plus, their company simply doesn’t exist on the international radar, so their are not likely to be acknowledged by their international peers or to have much of a career.

    In other words, there’s basically zero incentive to stay in Finland, if you’re not gonna be happy doing menial jobs or becoming a low-paid rank bureaucrat.

    That is why Finns that have even just a bit of ambition and self-esteem all eventually leave Finland, some willingly and without looking back, others bitterly and reluctantly, because they had believed all the nationalist propaganda that “being born a Finn is like winning the lottery” only to realize as an adult that it’s complete bull.

    It’s not that this country isn’t safe and that the nature isn’t lovely. We all agree that this country looks nice and that it would probably be nice to live here.

    It’s just that there’s zero career prospects for anyone, Finn or foreigner, in Finland – unless their wish is to join the ranks of the bureaucracy, in which case there is a growth path, but very few manage to get one foot in anyhow, so we’re all back to square one; no career prospect.

  52. Tiwaz

    -“People from other minorities have the same right as well. The same patriotism you speak of is also a source of pride in other groups. The problem is when you start sticking your views down people’s throat to drive home your point. If you were confdent enough about your culture you would not rage so much. It would not even be an issue.”

    I am confident about my culture, and I want to PRESERVE it. That means, Finland must stay Finnish.
    I have never said immigrants should not have love and pride for their culture. I am simply saying that in Finland their culture is secondary to Finnish.

    Like I repeatedly have said…

    If Finnish culture forbids it, it is forbidden regardless of your culture saying it is ok.
    If Finnish culture demands it, it is required no matter what your culture says.
    If Finnish culture permits it, you do not have to do it but may not deny it for anyone else either.
    If Finnish culture does not give a damn, it does not give a damn.

    When you move to another country YOU must adjust to it’s demands, not expect natives to appease you.

    Why is this so difficult concept for you Enrique?

    -“So, if you speak almost flawless Finnish, you are still at a disadvantage.”

    Bullshit. Not many weeks ago I was shopping and went through cashier who was black. Spoke good Finnish too. Clear accent showed it was learned language.

    Wasn’t first one such I have seen. Clearly once you DO have proper spoken and written Finnish you are no longer at great disadvantage. You are going to be at disadvantage yes, but same is true everywhere. Specially if you cannot adjust your behavior to fit the culture.

    -“Another factor that comes into play is the fact that there have been so few immigrants in this country with little political power.”

    Political power is not something that is handed to you. Immigrants are politically irrelevant because they ARE irrelevant. Couple pitiful percents of total population. Purpose of politics is to represent the will of the people, not to pamper tiny minority.

    -“Immigrants are the ones that must change the situation through democratic means and institutions available to us. ”

    What makes you think immigrants have any business demanding Finland to change? This is the appeasement I speak of. You see it as right of immigrants to demand natives to change their way of life and their native land because immigrants cannot handle adjusting to it.

    • Enrique

      –I am confident about my culture, and I want to PRESERVE it. That means, Finland must stay Finnish.

      If you lived in the United States in the 1960s during the civil rights movement, you would have heard the same arguments. Would you have been one of those whites hitting and kicking blacks for demonstrating peacefully on the streets? Would you have said how the white man would have been “gobbled up” by blacks if this group is given equal rights? As you can see, Tiwaz, history uses the same arguments to justify the means.

      And let me correct you: You are not the only one living in this country placing cultural benchmarks on people.

      No matter how much you kick and bitch, times are changing and will continue to change. Immigrants have as members of this society ALL the rights to bring forth their questions and aspirations. If you think differently, it shows that you use different benchmarks (dicrimination and bigotry) to give people rights: Finns have all rights and immigrants should behave and shut up. Sorry, Tiwaz, it does not work that way.

  53. xyz

    Immigrants are irrelevant?

    Do you know Mannerheim? Most likely 🙂
    He has German and Swedish ancestors (so in a way he has an immigrant background)…what if his ancestors would have never immigrated to Finland…would Finland be Russia? 🙂

  54. Tiwaz

    -“Do you know Mannerheim? Most likely 🙂
    He has German and Swedish ancestors (so in a way he has an immigrant background)…what if his ancestors would have never immigrated to Finland…would Finland be Russia?”

    And what did he actually do?

    He did present wonderful front figure yes, but actual warfare was handled by guys like Airo.

    -“Would you have said how the white man would have been “gobbled up” by blacks if this group is given equal rights? As you can see, Tiwaz, history uses the same arguments to justify the means.”

    And where is USA today?

    Also, in case you have not figured it out, black people have all the same rights as Finns here.

    What is your issue is that they are not granted preferential treatment and have their culture take preference over Finnish one.

    THAT is the issue you are whining about.

    -“And let me correct you: You are not the only one living in this country placing cultural benchmarks on people. ”

    Oh, I am member of people who do set it. And with few pathetic exceptions (who appear mostly Swedish speaking… Go figure) we do set our benchmark firmly at Finnish culture.

    For we are Finns. In land of Finns known as Finland.

    -“No matter how much you kick and bitch, times are changing and will continue to change. Immigrants have as members of this society ALL the rights to bring forth their questions and aspirations. If you think differently, it shows that you use different benchmarks (dicrimination and bigotry) to give people rights: Finns have all rights and immigrants should behave and shut up. Sorry, Tiwaz, it does not work that way.”

    Who have denied them those rights?

    What they do NOT have, is right to have their way over Finnish cultural tradition.

    That is what you are whining about (this deserves repeating). Immigrants not being granted preferential treatment.

    NEVER in this blog have you told immigrants that they are doing it wrong when they want job in Finland without being able to communicate with Finns in way Finns prefer.

    No law gives immigrants any right to have a job if they do not convince employer that they are right person for that job. Never, nowhere is that right granted.

    And since Finnish employer wants to hear Finnish language and see people act properly in Finnish cultural context, that means immigrant has to speak and act Finnish. But you want them to get jobs despite not speaking or acting properly.

    THAT is racism. It is worse, it is colonialist racism where you consider culture and language of NATIVES to be worth less than language and culture of foreigners.

  55. Tiwaz

    -“…tell this my Finnish friends who work in my country and cant speak the language properly :)”

    Hey, not my problem really.

    Even if some other country and it’s population decide to to jump off the bridge, it is hardly good excuse for Finland and Finns to do it.

  56. Tiwaz

    Does EU mean we have to jump off as well? EU only means that people inside EU can travel freely.

    That rules out huge majority of 6 billion humans on this mudball, rightfully so.

  57. Tiwaz

    Could you prove that rights of EU citizens are somehow violated in Finland?

    Their rights are respected. Rest of the world does NOT have these rights.

    Furthermore, EU citizens have no right to job. They, just like Finns, have to EARN their job.

    By selling their own skills to employer.

  58. Markus

    “Actually, natives are NOT citizens by default, because Finland defines citizenship according to bloodline, not according to the place of birth.”

    This is not a anomaly, rather the US system of granting citizenship on account of place of birth is. The general rule is child inherits citizenship first from mother secondarily from father.

    If Finland actually started to recognize citizenship on account of place of birth, labor tourism from Russia would become a major hit with dual citizenship on offer almost automatically. EU bureaucrats would be pissed off though with Finland being a part of the Schengen area.

    • Enrique

      –If Finland actually started to recognize citizenship on account of place of birth, labor tourism from Russia would become a major hit with dual citizenship on offer almost automatically.

      Have you noticed Markus how you and some other Finns “fear” the outside world. The fact is in the demographics: only a miniscule number of immigrants live in Finland (2.7%) and it is not because of dumb laws as you mentioned. Give me a break! There are more friendly countries to move to in Europe than Finland. You incorrectly think that millions would come here and eat you up like in the tale of Little Red Riding Hood. Sorry to disappoint you: it’s the other way around.

    • Enrique

      Thank you Martin-Éric for clearing these matters up for Tiwaz and Markus. By the way, I attended an interesting seminar at Turku University on the origins of Canadian multiculturalism.

  59. Martin-Éric

    Tiwaz, the rights of EU nationals ARE regularly violated in Finland, even on simple issues such as the possibility of opening a bank account and of accumulating a credit history.

  60. Markus

    Do try to develop basic reading comprehension skills, pretty please. I never suggested they would try to immigrate to Finland I only suggested they would find the idea of a family member with EU and Schengen citizenship appealing.

    By the way given that Finland or at least Finns are so very awful and your self appointed mission to convert it is apparently not enjoying major welcome why do you bother to stick around? If we as a people do not find essentially non regulated mass immigration in our best interest we are fully entitled to legislate against it, and that is the bottom line. This is not the early 20th century US with insatiable hunger for even unskilled labor. This is closer to Vonnegut’s Player Piano dystopia as is most of the western world, US included.

    • Enrique

      –I never suggested they would try to immigrate to Finland I only suggested they would find the idea of a family member with EU and Schengen citizenship appealing.

      That is, however, what your are inferring. And, speaking of basic reading comprehension skills, shouldn’t you get down from your high stool?

      And, hey, whether I stay in this country or not is my decision alone. Or are you now kicking out people from Finland (a bad knee-jerk reaction of some Finns) because you don’t like what you hear or because someone disagrees with you in a democratic society. You speak about mass immigration but I do not even see a trickle to Finland. So what gives?

  61. xyz

    Tiwaz: Yes of course you have to earn your job. But the question is should I invest 10 years in Finnish courses and restaurant jobs in order to get some higher level monkey jobs afterwards or just pack my bags and go somewhere else to get a good job straight away.

    • Enrique

      Well stated, xyz. Don’t even waste your time in a country that offers little opportunities.

  62. Tiwaz

    -“Have you noticed Markus how you and some other Finns “fear” the outside world. The fact is in the demographics: only a miniscule number of immigrants live in Finland (2.7%) and it is not because of dumb laws as you mentioned. Give me a break! There are more friendly countries to move to in Europe than Finland. You incorrectly think that millions would come here and eat you up like in the tale of Little Red Riding Hood. Sorry to disappoint you: it’s the other way around.”

    Have you noticed that our country avoids the problems associated with immigrants in these “friendly nations” precisely by NOT being welcoming place where everyone is free to come to raise their merry havoc.

    Millions of people WOULD want to come to Finland, proven by FACT that more people come here than leave every fucking year. Letting them in more easily would only add to our problems.

    -“Tiwaz, the rights of EU nationals ARE regularly violated in Finland, even on simple issues such as the possibility of opening a bank account and of accumulating a credit history.”

    Proof required.

    -“Tiwaz: Yes of course you have to earn your job. But the question is should I invest 10 years in Finnish courses and restaurant jobs in order to get some higher level monkey jobs afterwards or just pack my bags and go somewhere else to get a good job straight away.”

    So go away! You have this attitude problem. We Finns owe you NOTHING. You are not entitled to preferential treatment. Our country, our rules. Play by them or fuck off. If you choose to fuck off, we do not shed tears for you. Have nice life elsewhere.

  63. xyz

    Millions of people WOULD want to come to Finland
    Yes exactly, shown by the fact that Finland has only 4.000.000 tourists a year while France has 78.000.000 or Germany has 23.000.000? 🙂

    • Enrique

      xyz, so I guess we better look out for invading foreigners. Did you know that one of the great “threats” in Finland’s security policy are rampaging immigrants taking over the country? I know it sounds incredible but it is true. I wonder what ideologies and institutions does this type of fear serve? The armed forces? Foreign ministry? Interior ministry? Or is it plain antiquated thinking?

  64. Tiwaz

    -“Millions of people WOULD want to come to Finland
    Yes exactly, shown by the fact that Finland has only 4.000.000 tourists a year while France has 78.000.000 or Germany has 23.000.000?”

    Who gives a damn about that?

    Millions of people from pisspoor nations without education and nothing else to make them have even remote chance to make it on their own in highly educated and competitive society want to come to Finland if permitted.

    Nobody gives a damn about tourists. Tourists come, tourists go. Who cares?

    My issue is with those who come, stay and refuse to adjust and assimilate.

    Xyz, in case you have not figured out, 4 million annual tourists means that we get 80% of our population in tourists every year.

    Does Germany get that? No, not even 50%.

    Biggest issue for Finland as tourist attraction is that Finland is far less known abroad. And honestly, that is how we like it. Hordes of tourists bring trouble as well. We have had our share of Irish “tourism” and if it is either receiving trash like that or little less cash…

    I think I speak for majority of Finns when I opt for less cash for less Irish.

  65. xyz

    Austria: 31.000.000 Tourists, population of 8 Mio and the country is smaller than Finland.

    Tourism is very important for Finland becuause for some areas it is the only way to generate money. 60.000 people are employed in Tourism in Finland.

  66. xyz

    My issue is with those who come, stay and refuse to adjust and assimilate.
    -Maybe because they feel that they are only playing in the second league (if they play at all).

  67. james

    Aesop 5000 years ago GREECE.Multi, Liberal, moral, emotive,piss out of your eye balls ,culture stupitity, put it his way THOUSE THAT TRY TO PLEASE, ALL PEOPLE IN THE END, PLEASE NONE,The donkey ,the western world in other words, has well and truely fallen of the bridge, and drowning,/AESOP WAS BLACK.

    • Enrique

      Hi james, so what you are suggesting is that our democratic and society are incapable of dealing with cultural diversity. If so, what is the solution? Do away with “naive” ideals and place “autocratic” ones? Or is it a system where one group enjoys all the rights and the other gets thrown bones to eat?

  68. james

    Its is a dangerous idea to assume that all races religions cultures, tribes are equal,they are not ,it is the same as saying that you can occupie, the same space, time, place, as my body, this is impossible maths wise,There was at the time of Aesop two competing democratic thoughts 1 Athenian, Liberal, emotive, emotions moralisum,2 Sparta, maths are truth not emotions,balance to all things number of islamists held at number of christains in mecca=00000 = 20, million in europe,expressed as (xy)+2= (yx)-2, auto cratic ideas based on maths, is the only truth,naive ideas belong to the single person, the group deals with the group, on the bases of maths,Equality is an american idea, what you would like to believe the world is, rather than what it,/DOCTRAIN OF GOOD INTENSTIONS/ MATHS, is, the british believe in equity, 50 50 ISM,THE LETTER M,in the alphabet 13 —-M—–13 letters on both sides, in english this is refered as, IC, the law of numbers,ect, genet–ics, atom—ic,econom—–ics,thousands of words, so it is the same with ras—-ic ,theocrat—ic religion.these are truths,
    periodic table of matter= 232= thorium.
    square root of 1 hundred is ===10
    speed of light is ==== 186,000 miles per second.
    MATHS exist out side of race religion tribe ect,As Newton put it, it is because it is ,the is ,is maths
    WHAT IS TRUTH=MATHS
    MIND+ MATTER = MATHS, GREEK THOUGHTS.This is why our civilisation is the greatest, because we are subject to numbers,as piggy in ,lord of the flys puts it, when the boys worship the pigs head, they ask way do you refuse to bow down before it , he says other wise things, MATTER,MIND,dosnt make sense,TOTAL TRUTH IS MATHS.thank you

  69. james

    I have a Greek legion I would like to tell you, the men on the ARGINOT, are blown beyond the pillars of hercules ,in to the center of the Atlanic ocean,some open their wrists, some throw them selves overboard,in blind overwelming PAN–IC,kaos reigns,supreme, over all.the captain, searchs the sky a night and finds polaris the north star,lines up this thunb ,reaches behind him and finds ,south bi,sexs, his alinement, and find east and west,thus they are saved,come back to there homeland,the west wind comes up ,and wishpers in the captains ear,I will give you power over , all other , races ,religions, nations tribes, groups,ect,BECAUSE YOU ARE THE FIRST MAN TO US YOUR MIND,This is the reason why we are called westerners,To this day.
    This is why the BNP will distroy its enenys,because they are not our equals, we BRITS ARE CLEVER little bastards.Far more cunning than americans.

  70. james

    In Brition we must have the will to implerment genetic engineered balance, blacks with 50 eye colours ,50 hair colours,brits believe in the idea of deversity with in the conformity of life, I rather than US,blacks, asians, arabs, believe, in conformity with in the conformity, this makes them like the nazis,the group is dominant,this is the true doctrine, of the BNP,we dont always put it this way,but it is our long term plan,and we are commited to the empire of mind kind,what is empirative,to the empire,mind rules over class race religion nation,ect.this is how we ruled over 2/3 of this earth.we will rule again in another empire ,with out racism,THE OTHER PARTYS ARE NOT LIKE US ,WE PLAN FOR THE LONG TERM,thats why we play 3 day cricket not base ball.

  71. james

    I note that many, among you, are worryed about rights (dumb american liberal idea), we brits dont believe in this, we believe in privledge, it is a privledge to exist in a democratic state not a right,this privledge is based on the willingness of others to lay down their lives,they have earnt this right, you the none combatant, HAVE NOT,to extend foolishly to outsiders, privledge, and worst still rights,which few in a democratic state have earned, is stupidity of the highest order.This current generation of westerners have forgotten this blunt fact,thus foolish ideas overwhelm truth.

    • Enrique

      So, James, we know about your wrath. Now tell us what you are going to do about it. Kick out all the immigrants from Australia? If so which groups and tell us in the process how you are going to do this legally.

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