The Finnish media and Länsiväylä should follow Migrant Tales

by , under All categories, Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

Migrant Tales was way ahead of the Finnish media when it was the first to reveal the ethnic backgrounds of the violent killing that occurred on Friday February 17 after a naturalized Finn who was born in Somalia went to a high school prom. Länsiväylä claims incorrectly that the police have now confirmed the ethnic backgrounds of the victim  and the suspect, who is a white Finn.   

The police confirmed to Migrant Tales the ethnic background of the victim three days later after the killing.

Migrant Tales was first before the Finnish the media in another tragic death that took place earlier involving a Somali in Oulu.

What was tragic about both deaths was the reaction of some bloggers. Some of these were wild fabrications with one matter in mind: To erase shame by pinning the crime on a suspect, whom some claimed was Somali.  D4R and Migrant Tales was right on the ball all along. We knew the real facts behind the killing.

Our motto is a very simple one:  “To be a voice for those whose views and situation are understood poorly and heard faintly by the media, politicians and public.”

  1. Mark

    Enrique

    I’m very happy that Migrant Tales is growing as a voice for migrants in Finland and as a counter to the racism and xenophobia that is generated in forums like Scripta and Hommaforuum.

    However, I’m not sure about using the word ‘scoop’ to describe an immigrant death. It doesn’t sound so good to my ear. Reminds me of the Sun or News of the World, i.e. a tabloid mentality. I don’t think that describes what you are trying to do on Migrant Tales.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Mark, maybe you are right and maybe the “journalist” side got the better of me. I will change that to “became the first.” Thank you for bringing that up.

  2. Yossie

    So ethnic background should always be revealed in these cases? So consistently you must support for it to be revealed when the attacker is a minority too?

    • Migrant Tales

      Yossie, taking into consideration what happened on that weekend, it is a good matter that we revealed the ethnic identity. What we are saying, however, and speaking out against is violence. That means violence by Finns against immigrants and by immigrants against Finns.

      If I were a Somali, I would want to know what happened and why. People have a right to mourn their dead, especially when it is a cold-blooded killing like in Oulu at the Monaco Pizzeria.

  3. Yossie

    Enrique, you didnt actually answered my questions :p

    In any case I am happy you said it like this:

    “What we are saying, however, and speaking out against is violence.”

    This can be the only consistent approach we should take. Condemn violence in all of its forms.

    However your blog doesnt seem to support it that way. Around the same time with these other acts of violence was the stabbing of a finn in vantaa by group of immigrants. With immigrants being involved(though as attackers this time), it defenately would had been in your territory to report and condemn. Yet we did not see you making a entry out of it.

    You tend to blame white finns for not being more vocal about these attacks against immigrants, but are you being vocal about immigrants attacking finns either?

    Not to mention you have been very fast to make these acts of violence to be racist crimes, is that they way other media should follow? As a rule of thumb: immigrants victim -> racist crime?

    • Migrant Tales

      –Not to mention you have been very fast to make these acts of violence to be racist crimes, is that they way other media should follow? As a rule of thumb: immigrants victim -> racist crime?

      You are stating that, not me. Where did I say it was a hate crime? Maybe that is how you see things.

      So what is the point, then? The right for a community and Finns to be outraged by what happened.

      Finland is a very violent country as you know.

  4. Akaaro

    Yossie

    Migrant Tales has already mentioned clearly the news of the victim’s identity and Murderer too, but unfortunately almost local Finnish media didn’t talk about apparently the crime but covered it. Here we condemn any violance whether it is commited by Finns or immigrants but ask your media why they are not willing to report the reality on the ground, eventhough i know when it comes to the immigrants they always remain biased and wrong-headed.

    • Migrant Tales

      Akaaro, thank you for your thread on the tragic killing in Espoo Leppävaara.

      The fact that a blog like ours, with little resources, can uncover a crime with our sources compared with the Finnish media shows you one thing: they are simply not interested. They are not interested in asking tough questions about the motives and why in about three weeks we had a death and two cold-blooded killings in Oulu (2) and Leppävaara.

      Following those three tragic events we had another one on Sunday, when PS councilman Tommi Rautio became a household name by suggesting that he’d give a medal to the killer that killed the third person in Oulu.

      Even the police, who appear to be quicker to rule out racism than tell the public what happened, was first thinking about not pressing charges against Rautio but then decided the contrary the following day.

      What does this tell you? Denial and racism at its worst.

      It seems that the police and some members of the Finnish media are not interested about a group like Somalis because we, shamefully, have learned how to loathe such a group through institutional racism and in many ingenious but not seen ways.

  5. Yossie

    “You are stating that, not me. Where did I say it was a hate crime? Maybe that is how you see things. ”

    Are you kidding me? Most of your entries are about how these were in your opinion racially motivated attacks…

    whats the point? ok, I´ll try make it simple:

    1. You are not reporting cases where immigrants attack finns, while on other hand you demand finns to make massive news when situation is reversed

    2. To you, all violence against immigrants are PS incited hate crimes.

  6. eyeopener

    Hi Yossie.

    You seem to be VERY PROUD of Finland being a violent country. I am quite sure that the majority of Finns will disagree with you.

    Probably you want to see Finland as a fighting country. Against whom??

    Hmmm………….?

  7. eyeopener

    Continue:

    Yossie?? Migrant Tales doesnot need to do that. Iltalehti (right brain half) and Iltasanomat(left brain half) and many other blogs and sites do take care of that.

    You don’t read those ones?? Why don’t you read them and why do you accuse MT of takingg a stand.

    Lazy guy you are!!

  8. Mark

    I think Yossie makes a good point. It gives the wrong impression about what it means to stand up against racism. Why did the gang attack a Finn? Was it a revenge attack? It took should be condemned, especially if it was racial violence or reflected the state of ethnic relations in Finland at present.

    • Migrant Tales

      Mark, the story of the gang was honestly missed by me. I have promised that the next time we see this type of crime we will condemn it as well.

  9. Mark

    Eyeopener

    I don’t think we are betraying the cause of anti-discrimination by showing balance. That is what we would ask if national press, not that I think this blog should be mistaken for a news outlet, because it isn’t.

  10. eyeopener

    Hi Mark.

    I disagree with you. Tits for tats criminal acts are understandable but never an excuse.

    However, it’s MT’s purpose to discuss discrimination against immigrants. If we want to make it a judicial discussion platform than Yossie’s remark is valid.

    In my point of view the discussion then should be about human relations instead of ethnic relations. No problem with that either. However…..

    In the latter option you choose to defend -in this case- the immigrants.

    Agree??

    • Migrant Tales

      One of the matters I find quite bizarre in some threads here less but elsewhere more is by people who think I have a secret motive or an agenda against Finns because I write about a killing in Oulu or in Leppävaara. In the first place, we should not stray from the issue which is violence and secondly against a group, the Somalis. I have met many Somalis and I have a great appreciation for them. The first one I met was in the early 1990s, when they came to Finland.

      One of the matters that has shocked and shamed me on my Finnish side is the loathing that some Finns have for them. It reminds me of the black man in the South before the Civil Rights Movement in the U.S. Certainly there aren’t toilets for black and whites, but society has found ingenious and effective ways of segregating them from those things we consider important: good-paying jobs, security and acceptance. The loathing and contempt appears to be so great among some of us that the Somali community does not even have the right to mourn its dead on a blog because that is “racism” and “favoritism.”

      It is not racism, it is not favoritism either. It is only grief and outrage of a socially embattled community that faces all types of violence daily.

      You cannot “neutralize” as well what happened by stating the same case for white Finns. All types of violence are wrong. Where have you seen Finns demonstrate against the killing of a fellow Finn? There are, however, marches against violence in Finland.

      But here we are only speaking about physical violence and have left alone another culprit which is society and the institutional racism you find in Finland impregnated deep in ourselves. That is hostility every second and much more sinister than anything else that a community like the Somalis could muster against white Finns.

      So yes, let’s stop beating around the bush and admit that we are actually not only shocked by violence in all shapes and forms but by the real culprit, which is the culpability of institutional racism.

  11. Jones

    Referring Migrant Tales’ last comment: What exactly do you mean by “institutional racism”? Do you suggest that there is such in Finland?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Jones and welcome to Migrant Tales. By institutional racism I mean the following: “The collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people.” Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1999/feb/24/lawrence.ukcrime7

      Granted, immigrants of all backgrounds are given the opportunity to study and they have access to services like health. These are taken care of pretty well but when we venture out of the school setting and basic services the real world appears. We can discuss this more in detail if you wish.

      One of the biggest problems in Finland concerning its cultural diversity and its members is that we still lack a big picture of what these people are doing here and what their places are in society.

      Gathering by the poor work situation, Finland doesn’t even want them to stay after they finish their studies. So, many are forced to move away after receiving near-free education paid by the state.

  12. Yossie

    Eyeopener

    First of all, I find your accusations ridiculous. I do not feel proud about violence (come on.. who would?). Secondly, I do read a wide range of proper news papers (at least the websites, I do not order them) and also the tabloids you mentioned. So I find your accusations very uncalled for.

    Now, I felt it would be in MT´s mandate to report these too since it has taken the stance on violence when immigrant groups and individuals are involved. This would give more balanced approach rather than making it look like its all finns being bad guys and immigrants always being the good guys and victims.

    If that is not the case and the MT was to only concentrate on violence and immigrants when cases are one-sided. Then it would mean, for balance sake, there should be another blog which would be for cases when immigrants attack finns only. Arguing reasons and reporting crimes there. However, I would not be suprised if not after there would be accusations of that site being hate site spreading negative opinions about immigrants etc.

  13. D4R

    Yossie: However your blog doesnt seem to support it that way. Around the same time with these other acts of violence was the stabbing of a finn in vantaa by group of immigrants. With immigrants being involved(though as attackers this time), it defenately would had been in your territory to report and condemn. Yet we did not see you making a entry out of it.

    Yossie, we’re the minority. Minorities are practically impossible to be racist against majorities. There hasn’t been any racist attacks ive ever known made by minorities against finnish majority, but there has been many racist attacks commit by Finns against minorities, and since we’re the minoritiet and Finns te majority, it’s logical that, we the minority arent threat to Finns and never will be, but on the contrary it seem though, racist Finns are major threat against the small inorities living in Finland. So, Yossie, it’s not fair for you to compare, small minority to Finnish majority. This blog tends to give voice to migrants who live in Finland, who wouldnt have a voice otherwise, i don’t think Iltalehti or Iltasanomat would give a voice like this to migrants.

  14. D4R

    Yossie: You tend to blame white finns for not being more vocal about these attacks against immigrants, but are you being vocal about immigrants attacking finns either?

    Yossie, why are you making this racial? this blos isn’t racial, this blg is a voice for migrants, doesnt matter what their race is. We don’t really care about color of sin, we care about human rights. There’re many great Finns in this country, i myself happen to now few. This blog is not us against Finns, it’s us against , those bigot, racist ignorants who despise migrants for who thy’re. Im sure we have many finns on ourside, who value human rights and don’t want to be part of nazi ideology.

  15. Jones

    Thank you Migrant Tales and thanks for your reply.

    For me it is quite difficult to see that “organisation” (public sector in Finland, is it that in this case?) fails to provide services to people because of their race, ethnic reasons, etc. I also think that the same limitations concerning availability of services touch all Finns. It is very difficult to get for instance specialist doctor’s appointment (public sector). If you are not in accurate need of treatment you are told to turn to private sector services, which are of course very expensive.

    In my understanding (I’m not an expert in this) in every European country you need a reason for your stay (if more that 3 months) if you come from outside of EU/ETA countries: study, work, family reasons etc. I’m not aware of what kind of services you are entitled to if you are not Finnish national and have finnished studies, or even in what circumstances you are granted a recidence permit (if not work, study or family reason). But in the first place services are mostly paid by taxpayers, they are not planned to be “spent” by foreing nationals. As you know, currrently there is a huge need for cutting the costs of public services at every possible level. Thanks for dropping Finnish exports, aging etc.

    Somehow the question related to “place” of immigrants should be solved in labour markets. Surely public programms for “placing” immigrants who have studied in Finland are not an appropriate tool for that. Public programms just provide jobs that “live” only by tax payers’ support – there is no real demand for such jobs. Or there maybe demand, but nobody is willing to pay for such jobs. Anyway, I strongly agree that it is very stupid politics to pay studies and not to utilise knowledge and skills.

    In the big picture I see that there are too many study places in certain Finnish universities and polytechics (in certain “soft sectors”). It could be so that many foreing students enter studies that in reality don’t provide jobs at the end – at least not in Finland. So the answer could be planning more carefully the sectors of study places for foreing nationals and better cooperation between universities and private companies during the study. But then again this is a very small country with lots of high educated unempoyed citizens. Difficult dilemma to be solved, indeed.

  16. Yossie

    D4R

    By your logic: if I take a racist finn and took him to africa, he would be no longer racist since he is minority? Also by your logic, apartheid was one big misunderstanding? Your logic implies that black people are totally free of racism? Are they?

    Secondly, am a making it racial by asking for the voice of immigrants to admit and condemn the crimes immigrants make against finns? Is it too much to ask? If it is, why should I bother as a finn then go condemning crimes against immigrants

  17. D4R

    Yossie: “You are stating that, not me. Where did I say it was a hate crime? Maybe that is how you see things. ”

    Are you kidding me? Most of your entries are about how these were in your opinion racially motivated attacks…

    whats the point? ok, I´ll try make it simple:

    1. You are not reporting cases where immigrants attack finns, while on other hand you demand finns to make massive news when situation is reversed

    2. To you, all violence against immigrants are PS incited hate crimes.

    Yossie, your Finnish media, arent reporting immigrants identity when immigrants is being killed, who knows maybe for a hatecrime, but they cover it up or they just leave at mentioning. here we reveal incidents related to immigrants, wich Finnish media wont bother reporting. ** A ceses where immigrants attack finns** as you bluntly would say, are not existance, and if it occures, then, it will be reported, but we don’t have that kind of incidents, but we sure have incidents where a finn attacks immigrants. Yossie, you should understand, immigrants who live in Finland are so small that they’re almost invincible publicly, so it’s highly stupif of you to even things stuff like: immigrants attacking majority Finns for a hatecrime. C’mone now, let’s be sensible.

  18. eyeopener

    Once again Yossie. This blog is NOT established to discuss the problem of immigrants attacking Finns.I consider this a crime as well. Like I have said somewhere else: Tits for tats crimes are understandable but not excusable.

    However, when Finn media are avoiding to discuss the matter properly, MT creates a forum to bring these problems forward.

    And…. also said before. If this is a problem to you than you should talk to the Finn media and not with us!!

    Clear?? Not?? What a pity!!

  19. eyeopener

    Yossie.

    It is not a matter of one-sightedness. It’s a matter of choice. Every medium in Finalnd or wherever in the world will tell you that.

  20. D4R

    Migrant Tales: One of the matters I find quite bizarre in some threads here less but elsewhere more is by people who think I have a secret motive or an agenda against Finns because I write about a killing in Oulu or in Leppävaara. In the first place, we should not stray from the issue which is violence and secondly against a group, the Somalis. I have met many Somalis and I have a great appreciation for them. The first one I met was in the early 1990s, when they came to Finland.

    Migrant tales, I don’t think you should give explanation to these guys for why you do this. Yossie and these other guys, who come here attacking you and us are hypocrites. Yossie, Why don’t you and the other guys go to Jussi halla aho blog, or james hirvisaari blog or the other notorious racism blogs, and attack them. Why do you come here and attack Migrant tales for what he do? explain yourself please. have you been to their blogs, asking them, why they’re so racist? i dont think so. It’s hypocrite of you to come here and attack Migrant Tales..

  21. D4R

    Yossie, i am a Somali by nationality, and i tel you this, if there were Immigrants attacking a native Finn, i would condemn it, so would Migrant Tales too.

  22. Yossie

    Eyeopener

    Fair enough, you have made your point. In that case I would not call this a balanced blog.

    When it comes to “cover ups”, are all this based on this one case here? Anyways, what would you want them to do? Sent reporters to invistigate after every violent crime for possible immigrant involvement (as victims of course)? I am no expert so maybe enrique could enlight us better but if the piece of news isnt a major scoop, it usually tends to be copy paste of a police bulletin of the case. In such case, it would be more of fault of police for not reporting the ethnicity.

    “The cover ups” tend to happen on other side the fence too you know. Time to time you can see news where there is no mention of immigrant involvement when immigrants are the attackers. Like copy paste of the police report but mentions of immigrant involvement erased.

  23. Akaaro

    Absolutely, I agree with you that there is institutional racism in Finland, anyone who may disagree I am just giving an example you can ask the authorities it is concerned whether it is the police, interior ministry office/immigration department. Somalis when arrive here in Finland, government grants mostly refugee protection. They give alien passport and they write on it“THE HOLDER IS UNKNOWN” or some people they write on their passport. “ IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE THE IDENTITY OF THE HOLDER” even if the person comes as a family reunion. So that we meet problems when we go to the health services, workplaces, government offices and schools and I do remember it took me more than three months to get bank account. Finally my friend had assisted me opened one for me. You can ask banks in Finland, do you accept alien passport holders particularly Somalis, they will have said to you NO, because they are unknown. Above all, Somalis are marginalized for the government itself.

    • Migrant Tales

      Akaaro, thank you for that thread. Another form of racism which, I believe, is quite widespread is colorblind racism. Here is a link to understand what it is. In other words, we need not discuss racism in our society because we are way past that. Weren’t we the first nation in Europe to give women the right to vote? Didn’t we build a model social welfare state that promoted social equality?

      In the above link it explains it very well: “..it is racism that acts as if skin colour does not matter – even when it does.”

      A good example may be the ongoing debate on whether we can or should report about the death of two Somalis could be an example of our colorblind racism. Many on Migrant Tales still deny that racism is a problem in Finland. This affirmation may signal a different thing that what meets the eye. It could mean total lack of acceptance by some members of the majority of some minority groups. By denying that there is racism you may be really stating that visible immigrants don’t exist.

      Racism is a complex topic but not impossible to understand how it works and to grab it by the tail.

  24. D4R

    Yossie: By your logic: if I take a racist finn and took him to africa, he would be no longer racist since he is minority? Also by your logic, apartheid was one big misunderstanding? Your logic implies that black people are totally free of racism? Are they?

    Secondly, am a making it racial by asking for the voice of immigrants to admit and condemn the crimes immigrants make against finns? Is it too much to ask? If it is, why should I bother as a finn then go condemning crimes against immigrants

    Yossie, why would a racist Finn go to africa? or why would a racist african come to Finnland? your question is strange, you misundestood me and thus moscontrue me. I never said black people are free of racism, there are black racist and to me they’re as bigot and ignorants as any racist caucasian or asian. I Condemn anyone whose a racist. You’re making this racial, for constantly bringing peoples color in to discussion, i dont understand why is’t so important for you. This is not a black and white issue as you may see it, this is humanitys issue, racism touches all of us. WE’re Absolutely Condemning Also Racism Against Native Finns.

  25. justicedemon

    Jones

    Institutional racism is by no means confined to public sector services and typically involves a lower standard of service or a lack of meaningful service, as opposed to outright refusal of service.

    A simple example: a working immigrant approaches his bank, sets out all of the financial details concerning his young family, and requests a loan. The loan request is turned down. The immigrant returns a few days later with his Finnish spouse (who is in full-time education and not in gainful employment), sets out exactly the same financial details to exactly the same bank employee, and again requests exactly the same loan. This time the request is granted cordially. The mere physical presence of a non-immigrant dependent relative was enough to change the outcome. This was an actual case that I encountered at the old SYP bank in 1988.

    Another example: shortly after naturalisation in Finland, a very dark-skinned recent graduate of a Finnish university goes to his local employment office seeking to register as a jobseeker. The employment advisor asks to see the enrolee’s passport, which is obviously brand new. The official examines the passport carefully and announces that the enrolee cannot register as a jobseeker, because there is no residence permit in the passport. The enrolee asks the official to check the passport again. The official does so but the negative answer remains the same. Eventually the enrolee points to the passport cover and asks “mikä väri”?” and then asks the official to examine the passport for a third time and answer the question “mikä kansalaisuus?” This was another actual case at which I was present in about 1993 (when passports still had blue covers). The official concerned was a senior employment advisor with more than 20 years of experience working at an employment office in Espoo. I have never seen a more embarrassed civil servant when the penny finally dropped. Such is the incredible power of a black face.

    I can think of other examples within my personal experience in which immigrants have encountered extraordinary difficulties in securing services from organisations as varied as trade unions, university libraries, the police and central government ministries. In all of these cases the degree of bureaucratic inertia and unwillingness to serve was palpable, and strenuous effort was necessary in order to secure even minimal recognition that the service request was appropriate. This is a story of normally competent public officials and customer service employees who suddenly become unable to perform their duties correctly when the client is an immigrant.

  26. D4R

    Akaaro: Yossie
    What about if the police report is folded and biased. Can we use their report as paste and copy while we see the evidence.

    Good question. I don’t think Yossie has an answer for that, she’s just too quick to jump on this blog and attack us.

  27. Yossie

    Akaaro

    I do not believe police report can be folded and biased. I do believe it can drop a mention of ethnicity since one can argue it non factor in case. In such situation to address the problem is to try make a consistent policy on how to handle the reporting of ethnicity.

  28. Yossie

    D4R

    Attacking is a rather strong dont you think? I felt that since, like Enrique has sais, this is a balanced blog with bloggers on both sides, I would have my chance to put in and argue in favor of my opinion.

    Why I came to Migrant Tales? Well, I wanted to broaden my spectrum. I do read and had read Halla-aho’s blog and Homma before. Of course most of the people in there are mostly in agreement when it comes immigration issues and since Halla-aho’s blogging is rather logic at least in my opinion(oh the horror, I apologise for shocking you, please bear with me). Since Halla-aho and the bunch are pretty much labeled to be racist and what not, I thought it might be good to go some other blog that would be complitely opposite and see if it could discredit Halla-aho’s claims.

    The reason for me to actually write here is that since people usually have different opinion than me, arguing over it here makes more sense than being somewhere else where people might agree more.

    And no, I dont feel like hypocrit for being and writing in here.

    “Yossie, why would a racist Finn go to africa? or why would a racist african come to Finnland?”

    If you were to get 30 times better salary with less work or not work at all in some cases.. trust me, they would.

    “Yossie, i am a Somali by nationality, and i tel you this, if there were Immigrants attacking a native Finn, i would condemn it, so would Migrant Tales too.”

    And this is all I asked. Thank you

  29. Akaaro

    Yossie
    You don’t want to realise what we are telling you on this blog, How many TV and newspapers are in Finland and non of them has released the news of immigrant victims, if you are not satisfied what is going here or see it partialy. You can go racial slur blogs and discuss there…

  30. Akaaro

    Justicedemo

    Thank you for bringing that news up. Even me two months before i have applied a job and i was called for an interview but situation turned sour when I ring the bell. A middle aged-man and woman approached to welcome me. They stared at me saying we are not expecting you but thank you for interesting our company, we will call you back if possible. I asked why did you call me for an iterview and they said we thought you were Finnish.

    • Migrant Tales

      –They stared at me saying we are not expecting you but thank you for interesting our company, we will call you back if possible. I asked why did you call me for an iterview and they said we thought you were Finnish.

      A good example of how racism works in Finland.

  31. D4R

    Yossie: D4R

    Attacking is a rather strong dont you think? I felt that since, like Enrique has sais, this is a balanced blog with bloggers on both sides, I would have my chance to put in and argue in favor of my opinion.

    Yes you’re attacking, wether you notice that or not, that’s wha you’re doing. You’re not coming here polite, you’re coming here being aggressive towards, enrique and the minorities here. You’re coming with a pointing finger also with accusation of how misinterpret this blog thinking it’s not fair and balance, well that’s your opinion and nobody can take it away, but it don’t mean it’s true though. Yossie you really don’t have any arguments honestly, all you do is accusation and misinterpretation.

  32. D4R

    Yossie: Why I came to Migrant Tales? Well, I wanted to broaden my spectrum. I do read and had read Halla-aho’s blog and Homma before. Of course most of the people in there are mostly in agreement when it comes immigration issues and since Halla-aho’s blogging is rather logic at least in my opinion(oh the horror, I apologise for shocking you, please bear with me). Since Halla-aho and the bunch are pretty much labeled to be racist and what not, I thought it might be good to go some other blog that would be complitely opposite and see if it could discredit Halla-aho’s claims.

    Yossie, well i i hate to tell you this, but if you agree with racist blogs like homaforum and Hallaho, then you will never get any sense or understand the true meaning behind Migrant Tales blog, and what it aims for, because you have already negative presumption about immigrants and this blog Migrant tales. So no matter what we say to you, you’ll take it as offense and see us an enemy. You’ve already programmed in Homaforum. But we will try our best to change your negative presumption about us immigrants, byt engaging a debate with you, so you can be enlightened of the things they have been lying about in Hommaforum. Hallaho isn’t being labeled as a racist for no reason, i suggest you go and get in touch some of his early writing and ideas about different races and humanrights in general.

  33. D4R

    Yossie: The reason for me to actually write here is that since people usually have different opinion than me, arguing over it here makes more sense than being somewhere else where people might agree more.

    Yossie, that’s a good thinking of you. by debating with us, you can get some picture of who immigrants really are, then you can analyse of the things you have been told in Hommaforum, if it’s true or not.

  34. D4R

    Yossie: If you were to get 30 times better salary with less work or not work at all in some cases.. trust me, they would.

    So you’re saying, if a racist is offered a nice salary in to country wich he hates it’s people, he would go there. But that’s being a hypocrite. What’s the use of money, if he lives among peope whom he hates? i know i wouldnt.

  35. Mark

    Eyeopener

    I disagree with you. Tits for tats criminal acts are understandable but never an excuse.

    Which is my understanding too. I also realise that human beings being what they are will often follow up one injustice with another. That reprisal then becomes a source for another injustice, and so on. That IS part of the problem and I don’t see any reason to hide away from it. It should be discussed, even if it puts immigrants in a bad light. They are ALREADY being put in a bad light by these folks anyway. My perspective is to bring things out into the open and then eventually more light gets shed on the subject, rather than less.

    However, it’s MT’s purpose to discuss discrimination against immigrants.

    And in the process, we must be prepared to discuss discrimination by immigrants too. Part of that problem is that the majority do not see how they hold a totally different kind of power than the immigrant holds. It is no accident that racism of immigrants is expressed as ‘violence on the street’, while racism of natives takes the form of institutional racism, denial of jobs and negative national stereotypes. It’s sticks and stones against tanks.

    Yossie asked a perfectly valid question:

    Yossie said: Secondly, am a making it racial by asking for the voice of immigrants to admit and condemn the crimes immigrants make against finns? Is it too much to ask? If it is, why should I bother as a finn then go condemning crimes against immigrants

    Yossie’s opinion needs a proper response. Why? Because he perceives a moral bias in this blog, and that is the obstacle to a constructive dialogue about other issues. We should deal with what’s on the table so that we can get onto other more important topics in the debate.

    Maybe I’m being optimistic in thinking that we can have a real dialogue with Yossie. But he’s here, and he’s talking, and that’s already a lot closer to a proper dialogue than if he was in Hommaforuum.

    Maybe we are only training him to better defend his prejudices. That is a danger too. On the whole, if he spots a topic that he can say we are ‘hiding from’, that is enough to win the argument with some people. We should not let them get away with ‘winning the argument’ so easily. We need to drag them further into the debate to make the points that really need to be made. 🙂

  36. Yossie

    D4R

    “So you’re saying, if a racist is offered a nice salary in to country wich he hates it’s people, he would go there. But that’s being a hypocrite. What’s the use of money, if he lives among peope whom he hates? i know i wouldnt.”

    You are really missing my point high and wide… The point was, as an example: what if white racist would be in africa? You argued as he is in minority, he cant be racist. I would say he doesnt get changed by a virtue of entering a different country. As such I would conclude, it is possible for a members of a minority be racists too.

    “you have already negative presumption about immigrant”

    For some immigrant groups, yes

    “Hallaho isn’t being labeled as a racist for no reason”

    Maybe, but could this too imply that in same sense, there might be reasons behind why some immigrant groups get labeled too?

    “You’ve already programmed in Homaforum.”

    So I have no free will, acting according to the programming I got out of a website? Its funny how Enrique is that one arguing that our culture/religion doesnt make us robots, yet he(and apparently you have picked that up too) claims one website can do that.

    “Yossie you really don’t have any arguments honestly, all you do is accusation and misinterpretation.”

    I certainly hope I do not misinterpret things, but I do make accusations when I feel those are valid. Obviously many disagree and in the end, after proper arguments are laid and discussed, we should come to a conclusion if my accusations are indeed valid or not.

    If my accusations are wrong, then does that not strengthen your opinion? If my accusations are right, is it not the right thing to do to bring them up? Then what is the harm done?

  37. Mark

    As such I would conclude, it is possible for a members of a minority be racists too.

    Whites in Africa were at different times the ones with the power. Therefore their racism was more damaging to the majority. The question is ‘who has the power’. Racism to defeat racism does not work very well, even if it is ‘understandable’.

    Maybe, but could this too imply that in same sense, there might be reasons behind why some immigrant groups get labeled too?

    Yossie, what you don’t seem to acknowledge is that the bar is always held higher for immigrants, which means in effect that they are destined to ‘fail’ as a group. As an example, you hear ‘but they are guests in Finland and should behave, or leave’. While this sentiment is understandable, it basically means that immigrants have less rights. Not good if you want to promote inclusion. Also, a few immigrants misbehaving results in stigma against the whole group, even while the same logic is not applied to the ‘home nation’.

    There are so many other things you need to be taking into account in your thinking, Yossie.

  38. Yossie

    Mark

    “Sometimes you have to give ground to gain ground! :)”

    That usually helps ^^ Entranched warfare is rather taxing with no gains :p

    “Also, a few immigrants misbehaving results in stigma against the whole group”

    And this is why it would be important for voice of immigrants to condemn the actions of a few. After all, thats what you want us to do right? Making loud and clear we condemn the wrongful actions.

    “Whites in Africa were at different times the ones with the power. Therefore their racism was more damaging to the majority. The question is ‘who has the power’. Racism to defeat racism does not work very well, even if it is ‘understandable’. ”

    My point what I tried to convey to D4R is that I do not believe in “minority cant be racist”. Minority can be a local majority, in such cases the “cant be racist minority” very well can be racist. (emphasis on CAN BE, wont say they 100% will be).

  39. D4R

    D4R: “you have already negative presumption about immigrant”

    Yossie: For some immigrant groups, yes

    D4R: Yossie, it’s very hard to engage with a person like you. You say you have negative presumption about certain people, without knowing them personally, cause you heard some rumours about them, how does that work for you? i mean, honestly to me that doesnt make anysense. ive heard some negative stuff about certain Finns, about how prejudice and racist they’re against dark colored people like me, but i don’t have any reason to hate you cause of that, cause i don’t know you personally Yossie, but you have negative presumption about me already for a reason of some racist lying to you about us. That’s a shame.

  40. Mark

    Yossie

    And this is why it would be important for voice of immigrants to condemn the actions of a few. After all, thats what you want us to do right? Making loud and clear we condemn the wrongful actions.

    Yossie, while I’m happy condemn what clearly isn’t right, regardless of ethnicity, you also have to put this discussion into some proper context. What happens is that

    1) we express condemnation of racism or violence against immigrants.
    2) folks like yourself come here and say ‘but what about immigrant crime’.
    3) You make your condemnation conditional on our condemnation of immigrant crime.

    Migrant Tales does not ask you to come here and condemn crime against immigrants. Migrant Tales expresses its own condemnation.

    However, what happens is that you do come here and make these conditional demands.

    So, I ask you, who starts it? When an crime against an immigrant happens, is MT supposed to hunt around for another ‘fresh’ story where an immigrant has committed some crime against a Finn to publish alongside it to make it ‘fair’?

    Another thing that happens is that MT complains about negative ethnic stereotyping (i.e. racism), then someone comes here and says, yes, but they are criminal, aren’t they, look at the stats! No mention of Finnish crime, and, please note, no condemnation of Finnish crime or criminals, and no attempt to put all Finns into a ‘criminal basket’ because of the actions of a few. Suddenly, when the conversation of immigrant crime comes up, your desire for ‘balanced reporting’ suddenly and magically disappears. Why is that?

  41. D4R

    Mark: Another thing that happens is that MT complains about negative ethnic stereotyping (i.e. racism), then someone comes here and says, yes, but they are criminal, aren’t they, look at the stats! No mention of Finnish crime, and, please note, no condemnation of Finnish crime or criminals, and no attempt to put all Finns into a ‘criminal basket’ because of the actions of a few. Suddenly, when the conversation of immigrant crime comes up, your desire for ‘balanced reporting’ suddenly and magically disappears. Why is that?

    Exactly! This is what amsaying, If a finn murders, kills, robs and rapes, we don’t assume that all Finns are like that, but when one immigrant say dark colored, for instance rapes a woman, the to some Finns like yossie, means automatically all dark colored males are savage rapist. That’s not fair to me.

  42. Andy

    Finns drink, they tend to shout, what else do they do?I think I saw a rape stat where Finland was in top ten, may be top 15 in the world.

  43. Yossie

    Mark

    “Migrant Tales does not ask you to come here and condemn crime against immigrants. Migrant Tales expresses its own condemnation.”

    And also demands finns to take stand against this “social ill”. Fair enough of course. But voice of the immigrants should too be able to condemn their own too.

    “So, I ask you, who starts it? When an crime against an immigrant happens, is MT supposed to hunt around for another ‘fresh’ story where an immigrant has committed some crime against a Finn to publish alongside it to make it ‘fair’? ”

    Is this not what you want finnish media to do? Hunt down all the cases for possible immigrant involvement (as victim). Is it not what migrant tales does? Hunt down the cases where immigrants are victims and report them? Should be able to do those where they are attackers too.

  44. Yossie

    Andy

    “Finns drink, they tend to shout, what else do they do?”

    Drink, very much true
    Shout, when we are drunk somewhat.. apart from that no >.<
    What else? Stab their best friend with a kitchen knife hence the less than admirable violence statistics…

    "I think I saw a rape stat where Finland was in top ten, may be top 15 in the world."

    Some source for this would be nice since I have hard time believing in this.

  45. Yossie

    D4R

    “Exactly! This is what amsaying, If a finn murders, kills, robs and rapes, we don’t assume that all Finns are like that, but when one immigrant say dark colored, for instance rapes a woman, the to some Finns like yossie, means automatically all dark colored males are savage rapist. That’s not fair to me.”

    I´m more inclined to belive it might prove member of a group beeing more likely to commit such act rather than ALL committing such act. There is a difference. If such assesment cant be made, then saying Finland is a violent country would be equally silly since its just couple of guys too.

  46. justicedemon

    Yossie

    How much more “likely” are you to molest a child (1) as an individual or (2) as a member of a group?

    What happens if you belong to two groups (e.g. Finns and wheelchair users)? How do you decide the contributory weighting of these group memberships to your own individual likelihood of molesting a child?

    What “likelihood”, gauged in the foregoing manner, would you consider acceptable in a person looking after your children? Remember that everyone belongs to at least one group in which there is at least one child molester, so the “likelihood” can never be zero.

    What, in general, is the practical value of such collectively reckoned “likelihoods” when dealing with individuals in concrete situations? All other things being equal, for example, should i prefer to hire an Algerian pilot over a Finnish pilot, because Algerians have a much lower average rate of alcohol consumption?

  47. eyeopener

    Hi Mark.

    I am sorry again to disagree. MT is to voice what is happening to immigrants. There are enough platforms to discuss the crimes of immigrants against Finns.

    Let me be clear about that. ANY crime is one too many. Irrespective the perpetrator.

    However, as MT has taken its stand AGAINST discrimination of and -worse- racism against foreigeners, I can’t see your point of making a gesture to become a “racism and crime for all” platform.

    It tells a whole story that people who believe MT has personal bias against Finns (in this case) do not understand the reason WHY MT exists.

    I can accept your criticism especially to the “swappers” of opinion. I myself take a “harder stand”. I think it’s my commitment -not my tactics- to defend IMMIGRANTS’ position, not to be soft on the “swapper”.

    I promise to be somewhat less harsh on “swapper”. Acceptable??

  48. eyeopener

    Continue….

    I have a strong aggression against people who do not stand for their point of view. I dislike actually “cloackers” like ASH. In my opinion Yossie is a similar case!! 🙂

  49. khr

    I have a strong aggression against people who do not stand for their point of view. I dislike actually “cloackers” like ASH. In my opinion Yossie is a similar case!! 🙂

    Hasn’t Yoshie been quite open about his views? He says he comes from Homma, so I would not count him as a cloaker. Obviously his opinions are quite different from the mainline here, though.

  50. Andy

    Yossie nationmaster is the source

    I must’ve been drunk when I saw it (though I do not drink anymore) but it doesn’t beautilize the facts. Rape victims

    1.New Zealand 1,3 % (of population?)
    2. Austria 1,2 %
    3. Sweden 1,1 %
    3 Finland 1,1 %
    5 Australia
    6 UK
    7 The Netherlands
    7 Slovenia
    13 Denmark

  51. Yossie

    Andy

    percentage seems awfully high Oo

    But you did notice there was like 19 countries only listed in there…? Your flexing it quite a bit to make a claim Finland is in top ten in the world…

  52. Yossie

    “I dislike actually “cloackers” like ASH. In my opinion Yossie is a similar case!! ”

    Please tell me how am I a “cloaker”?

  53. Yossie

    All other things being equal, for example, should i prefer to hire an Algerian pilot over a Finnish pilot, because Algerians have a much lower average rate of alcohol consumption?

    I would imagine in that front Algerians would come out winners indeed.

    • Migrant Tales

      Folks, there is an interesting story on Iltalehti where PS councilman Tommi Rautio, who said he would decorate the man who killed a naturalized Finn from Morocco in cold blood. Here is the link: http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2012022915267718_uu.shtml

      I really don’t know how delusional people like Rautio are. He threatened to sue the media for being racist and with the aim to cut short the popularity of the PS. Is this person for real? Stay tuned to the PS for more action-packed scandals…

  54. justicedemon

    Andy

    Do all of those countries define the offence in the same way?

    The short answer is no.

    The difference in definitions between the UK and Sweden has been in the news lately. Google for the following keywords: assange uk sweden rape condom consensual

    In Finland, of course, rape is a type of ryecrisp.

  55. justicedemon

    Yossie

    Does that answer mean that you can never be a victim of discrimination, because you must always belong to some conceivable group with some undesirable “likelihood”?

    How about answering the other questions?

  56. Mark

    Yossie

    “Migrant Tales does not ask you to come here and condemn crime against immigrants. Migrant Tales expresses its own condemnation.”

    And also demands finns to take stand against this “social ill”.

    No, not really. What I see happening is commentators criticising every news story that Migrant Tales puts up and various people defending Migrant Tales asking them to simply condemn the violence. But it doesn’t start out like that.

    But voice of the immigrants should too be able to condemn their own too

    Why? Would that make you feel better about it? Maybe it’s good to feel a little ashamed and outraged at the behaviour of your fellow Finns, especially if they seem to do things ‘in the name of Finland’. How do you feel about that? How do you feel about Rautio trying to represent Finland being at war and that murderers of immigrants should be given medals?

    Is this not what you want finnish media to do? Hunt down all the cases for possible immigrant involvement (as victim). Is it not what migrant tales does? Hunt down the cases where immigrants are victims and report them? Should be able to do those where they are attackers too.

    Well, no actually, that wasn’t my point, that Finnish media should hunt down stories where immigrants are victims. Rather, I would ask them simply to report it. And when an immigrant commits a serious crime, I wouldn’t ask them to then report side by side another crime by a Finn, just to show ‘we Finns are not perfect either’. Point is, that is completely unnecessary in a world where we simply accept that crime is a phenomena of all populations. However, the minute you start introducing league tables and stigmatizing immigrant groups as being ‘criminal’, then that common sense is lost.

  57. Mark

    Eyeopener

    I am sorry again to disagree. MT is to voice what is happening to immigrants. There are enough platforms to discuss the crimes of immigrants against Finns.

    Don’t apologise. No need. I think a blog that allows comments is a free forum where people can bring up whatever they want in relation to the news. In that sense, the blog is not a newspaper and so doesn’t have an ‘aim’ as such. My point is not to report on any crime by an immigrant, but only on that crime that appears to be a hate crime, because that would be directly relevant to what the blog appears to discuss, i.e. issues facing immigrants.

    Personally, there are enough competent commentators on the blog to avoid this becoming a platform for pushing forward unbalanced ideas about immigrants and hate crime. At the same time, i think it is crucial to admit that racism can go both ways. Polarising debate is one thing, as is blowing down falsehoods, but I’m also interested in changing people’s minds. And that requires honest dialogue that faces up to people’s fears, even if those fears are unfounded.

    The basic problem here is that Finns see immigrants as a group, and treat them as such and have the same expectations as if they were a ‘team’. The team has a reputation, which can be spoiled by the actions of individuals. The thinking that needs to change is Finns thinking about immigrants as a team, and treating them like they would other citizens in Finland, as individuals.

    Immigrants do not commit crime because they are part of an immigrant group. An immigrant doesn’t say, hmmm, I think I’ll steal a car because I’m an immigrant, and that’s what we do! A person who steals a car is not motivated to do it because of their ethnicity. Hate crime is another matter, and that’s why I think it should be on the table. Finns should see immigrants as individuals. This is something that D4R has brought home very well through his commenting on the blog.

    However, as MT has taken its stand AGAINST discrimination of and -worse- racism against foreigeners, I can’t see your point of making a gesture to become a “racism and crime for all” platform.

    It’s more than a gesture. It’s the validation of people’s genuine, though ill-informed concern. If the accusation is made that Migrant Tales is biased, then a firm response is needed. Taking a stand against discrimination is not in any way compromised by accepting that immigrants are capable and carry out crime or hate crime. Arguments about ‘who started it’ or which ethnicity is ‘to blame’ are quite childish and pointless. The idea is not a ‘racism and crime for all’ platform. That seems to imply that ethnicity is lost, and that crimes against immigrants are buried in colourless statistics. That is absolutely not what i suggest. What i suggest is that when a serious hate crime appears to have been carried about by immigrants, that Migrant Tales would be brave enough to report on it and not fear that it is betraying its readership. As an immigrant, I want to be informed about what other immigrants are doing, especially if it involves ‘hate crimes’. My view.

    The idea of giving ground is not about ‘gestures’. It’s about seeking dialogue and seeking solutions, and that requires validation on both sides. You cannot ask for it if you are not prepared yourself to show it.

    I promise to be somewhat less harsh on “swapper”. Acceptable??

    I accept almost all your comments, Eyeopener. Your provocation is welcome and the least that many posters on here deserve. 🙂

  58. joku

    Mark, I agree with a lot of what you say in your comments.
    And I really applaud the fact that your contributions to the discussion are constructive – you try to create an honest dialogue.
    Not just the prevalent “let’s see who wins the discussion by aggressive one-sided shouting and closing one’s ears to anyone with other ideas than mine”

  59. Yossie

    Mark

    ” But voice of the immigrants should too be able to condemn their own too

    Why?”

    We are going in circles here… I just want to point out that you guys should care about the crimes done by immigrants against finns as much as you expect finns to care about crimes done against immigrants

    “I wouldn’t ask them to then report side by side another crime by a Finn”

    What I asked is just to report immigrant crimes like you do with crimes against immigrants.

  60. hannu

    Mark this blog doesnt even try to be balanced or fair, this is for spreading rumours and ignoring news and facts.
    Most fair what i have seen is hommaforum, both be it immigrant against finn or finn against immigrant are posted in there and when there is need finns get bashing, go and read oulu shooting thread etc.
    Enrique ignores immigrant against finns and just launches TL;DR of text without talking about subject.
    I assume enrigue blog still haves rumours what are shot down and by police asked to stop but thats not what enrigue wants. Spreading lies is better to his agenda. I checked, it does.

    He didnt post anything about 4 black attacking on finn, somali stabbing finn so finn is permanently disabled or his fellows raping and attactick/indimidating finns. All current news what he knows.

    Also he didnt post fact about hakkarainen that his fellows though that if hakkarainen is racists then foreigners dont have anything to worry in finland. Hakkarainen actually did more for advancement of 3rd world than most “kehitysapuprojektit”. Of course those projects dont use language like “poppamies” but what they do?

    I use “his fellows” because he uses “white”.

    D4R miltä sinusta tuntuu mennä ryhmän, joka koostuu sanotaan vaikka viidestä kaljusta maastopukuun pukeutuneesta miehestä joilla on leijonariipus, välistä?

    • Migrant Tales

      –Mark this blog doesnt even try to be balanced or fair, this is for spreading rumours and ignoring news and facts.

      Do you mean we don’t follow the “facts” that Hommaforum and Scripta put out? Absolutely right!

  61. Mark

    Hannu

    Also he didnt post fact about hakkarainen that his fellows though that if hakkarainen is racists then foreigners dont have anything to worry in finland. Hakkarainen actually did more for advancement of 3rd world than most “kehitysapuprojektit”. Of course those projects dont use language like “poppamies” but what they do?

    With all due respect, Hannu, Teuvo Hakkarainen was censured by his own party, while Ilkka Palmu, the journalist that originally interviewed him on entering parliament said they had not published his worst comments for fear of being sued!

    Any kind of whitewash job that comes after that kind of scandal is cynical in the extreme.

    However, if it truly is the case that his skills lie in teaching the 3rd world how to use a saw, then fine, perhaps he should stick to that and his legacy in regard to his humanity will be a lot better for it.

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