The Finland we all want

by , under All categories, Enrique

By many standards, Finland is an exceptional country. Newsweek magazine recently named it the best country in the world to live according to education, quality of life, economic dynamism as well as other factors.

One of the greatest threats to our well-being and international reputation are xenophobia and racism. If the Newsweek staff would have looked more closely at this social ill, would Finland have been named the best country in the world?

Is it possible that a country that is so innovative and dynamic has immigrant unemployment many fold higher than the national average?

What would the newsmagazine say about the Social Democrats’ maassa maan tavalla policy, which thinks that nothing should or will change and that immigration should be a one-way process? Such catch phrases from a party that fought for social justice and our social welfare system is quite incredible to put it lightly.

What would it say about other political parties that instead of showing leadership against racism are starting to use adjectives like ”hordes” and ”uncontrolled” before immigration and accuse a pretty defenseless group of ”taking away our jobs?”

The best way to defend Finland’s image is to treat everyone who lives here with respect. Our laws and way of life guarantee that this can be achieved.

A lot of work has to be still done to build those vital pathways of incorporation to our society for people who have made Finland their new home.

One of the greatest threats to Finland in the new century is not immigration but xenophobia and racism.

  1. Tony Garcia

    I’d like to right a comment about this article, but sometimes you are just too abstract, so help me here please, who are the “we”?

    “Is it possible that a country that is so innovative and dynamic has immigrant unemployment many fold higher than the national average?”

    Yep, apparently it’s. Nevertheless a shame that Finland can’t control its own immigration allowing this problem to happen. In that sense, Enrique, I’m with you…

    • Enrique

      xyz sent an interesting link on a German program that spoke of Finland’s educational system. One of the greatest paradoxes is that if we have such an excellent system, why is unemployment among the 15-24 years so high? I think Finland can control is education. The issue is that most of the people that move here don’t move because of work but in 2009 because of studies (students) and family ties. Check http://www.migri.fi/netcomm/content.asp?article=3126.
      The interesting question is why is labor immigration not up there. One reason is because there aren’t that many jobs and because Finland is not an attractive country to emigrate to. It’s as simple as that.

  2. JusticeDemon

    Finland has been a net exporter of labour for most of the last two centuries. The national economy and political system of Finland would have been quite different if the principal recipient countries in North America and Scandinavia had resisted migration for employment with the same ferocity as Finland in the second half of the last century.

    The imbalance between emigration and immigration has ingrained a double standard in the national mentality, whereby emigrants from Finland to other countries are considered welcome, hardworking, clean living and honest, whereas immigrants from other countries to Finland are considered unwelcome, workshy criminals.

    Migrants obviously come in all shapes and sizes, but they do tend to be self-starters who are willing to take risks and explore unfamiliar options.

    • Enrique

      –Migrants obviously come in all shapes and sizes, but they do tend to be self-starters who are willing to take risks and explore unfamiliar options.

      Isn’t it incredible that some can be so dim to think the opposite of immigrants? And on top of it to seek opportunistic political gain by spreading fear and hatred?0! This is beyond me but I guess that Europeans also come in very different shapes and sizes.

  3. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘The imbalance between emigration and immigration has ingrained a double standard in the national mentality’

    The majority of people who are critical of immigration have no problems with foreigners coming in from other EU countries or developed countries such as the US or Australia. Right-wing Parties such as the Danish People’s Party who control immigration policies in Denmark aim ‘to drastically reduce non-Western immigration’. Seemingly as most Finns who emigrated did so to other EU or developed countries this does not represent a double standard mentality.

    This concern towards non-Western immigration is not unfounded has come about from crime and unemployment statistics where they have been majorly overrepresented. For example the unemployment rate in Finland for Somali, Iraqi, Afghan, and Sudanese citizens (all muslim countries) are above 50% compared to let’s say German or Dutch citizens at 7%.

    • Enrique

      –The majority of people who are critical of immigration have no problems with foreigners coming in from other EU countries or developed countries such as the US or Australia.

      The idea that you can control the people that come into your country is an illusion. Since people are individuals you never know what you will get. That is why it is important to screen people on their merits and NOT clump them into one group and, bingo, we get whom we like. The United States and Canada prohibited for many decades people from certain countres to come and live (especially from Asia). I think these restrictions were very tough. So, if you want to bring this system in, it has been tried before and has been relegated into the trashcan of history. And what are you going to do with those that you don’t want and are citizens of these countries you mention?

      As you can see, the view that you can magically control migration is a pipedream.

  4. xyz

    Discrimination – actual and perceived – would also gradually incline individuals to interact more with members of their own ethnic group. This may also lead to the strengthening of networks of inadequate social resources, as mentioned earlier. In certain cases, the disenchantment resulting from the failure to attain personal goals or from various forms of social exclusion may also create disenchantment with the cultural norms of the host society, which may further result in increased assertion of one’s own cultural identity. This may, therefore, lead some people to emphasise the notions of ‘us and them’, and differences rather than similarities between people.

    http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/val/sosio/vk/ahmad/gettinga.pdf

  5. Surakka

    This never-ending cycle of “blame the immigrant” or “blame the politicians” or “blame the system” or “blame the sun-god” is pointless and has gotten no one anywhere.

    Fear of the unknown fuels ignorance. Information about the unknown allows the ignorantantly misinformed to become knowledgeable about that which they do not know and reduces the fear of, ie. those who look different than the mainstream.

    There is a very small movement in the community to take the immigrant into classrooms to sit down with children and answer questions about the head-scarf, food, language, religion, snuff-pipe, etc. This is where tolerance begins.

    If each immigrant takes it upon themselves to “educate” one neighbour/child/classroom, respectfully about where they come from, their belief system, etc. then it’s one more neighbour/child/classroom to “spread the word” that immigrants are just people too.

    Obviously the populous of natives here are living “in fear” (they just don’t know anyone from another country) so it’s up to those of us who feel shunned to do something about educating the masses without anger or frustration. Treat/educate “the masses” as you would a child with patience and respect. Respect is earned not given.

    Both sides need to find a way of moving toward the other.

    • Enrique

      Hi Surakka, welcome to Migrant Tales. These are wise words you said: Both sides need to find a way of moving toward the other.

      This, I believe, is critical. Living togeher requires first and foremost acceptance. Then everything starts to fall into place little by little. The problem is that that first step can take centuries to happen.

  6. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Between 1860 and 1923 some 340,000 Finnish citizens emigrated to North America. Was Finland a developed country at this time?

    There are currently about 675,000 people domiciled in Sweden who were either born in Finland or have at least one parent or grandparent who was born in Finland. This is the result of very substantial economic migration between 1950 and the early 1970s.

    The Finns in North America created a cultural exclave on the Upper Michigan Peninsula. Finnish and variants of Finnish are still widely spoken here, and there is even a private university with a very distinctive and fiercely preserved Finnish heritage. You would call this area a ghetto.

    The Finns in Sweden were regularly lumped together by the local tabloid press in the 1960s and 70s as a bad influence on the nation. The banner headlines EN FINNE IGEN and FINNJÄVEL served to reinforce a popular negative stereotype of Finns in Sweden. A Swedish equivalent of Klay would have called attention to the way in which Finns were overrepresented in Swedish violent crime statistics at this time, while simultaneously demonstrating complete ignorance of the need to weight those statistics for demographic comparability.

    On the other hand, a Swedish equivalent of Klay would probably have been smart enough not to repeat this basic error of statistical interpretation after it had been pointed out clearly. What’s your excuse?

  7. Klay_Immigrant

    JusticeDemon you seem to be making the same mistake as Enrique and others with comparing migration of the past to the present and the future. Over hundred years ago being an illiterate immigrant wasn’t viewed as a major handicap in the labour market and some countries didn’t even have any border controls or visas. Forty years ago the EU only had 6 member states not 27 states now and Eastern Europe was entrenched in Communism. Times change and so has migration so any comparison is irrelevant as certain criterion and limitations have completely changed.

    You seem to ignore that even when statistics have been weighed for demographic comparability certain immigrant groups are still majorly overrepresented. This was shown by someone else on this blog with data after the ‘fix’ had been made. In fact the ‘fix’ doesn’t make a huge difference as while there is a higher percentage of the native population at geriatric age you seem to forget that there is also a higher percentage of the immigrant population at child age. It appears you are the one making excuses for crimes committed by immigrants.

    Just like in the past JusticeDemon comparing crimes that only a very small percentage of the total population are able to commit (serious economic crimes) to crimes anyone can commit (rape, robbery, battery etc.) regardless of socioeconomic status or occupation is again futile and shows your ignorance and flawed logic.

  8. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    And yet you regularly draw gloom and doom conclusions about the future based on current migration flows…

    Your views on recent immigrant communities in Finland are precisely parallel to those of the Swedish tabloid press concerning Finnish immigrants in the 1960s and 70s. Doesn’t that give you at least some pause for thought? You complain about ghettoes and call for assimilation and invisible immigrants, but you conveniently ignore Finlandia University. Double standard? If not, then why not?

    No such statistical fix was ever made here and you know it. Properly weighted statistics on criminal convictions sorted by ethnic extraction or migration history simply do not exist. Show me one reputable study of this kind for Finland. You can’t.

  9. Klay_Immigrant

    You either havn’t read or understood my point. Are Finns in America visible minorities from a non-Western background? Ofcourse not, so to highlight them is again irrelevant. If I had said ALL immigrant groups are detrimental to Finland then you would have reason to bring up Finlandia University etc., but I have never said or implied that. Otherwise I would have called Finland to leave the EU to prevent EU citizens working without a visa. So no double standards have been exercised.

    Since you have the ability to always single out exceptions as the norm should Finland follow Monaco’s example of 70.1% immigrant population as they have according to the World Bank the highest GDP per capita of any country? Sound silly? Well some of your exceptional examples are no different.

    There is a negative correlation between income and violent crime. So in essence the lower the income group the more suspectible the group is to partake in violent crime. This applies to immigrants and natives alike in any country. Considering that non-Western citizens in Finland usually belong in the lowest income brackets or are on welfare then inevitably they will be overrepresented in crime statistics. How many times do you hear of middle/upper class gangs terrorising communities and neighbourhoods?

  10. xyz

    Considering that non-Western citizens in Finland usually belong in the lowest income brackets or are on welfare then inevitably they will be overrepresented in crime statistics.
    -Give them work 🙂

  11. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    The Finns in the Upper Michigan Peninsula are as visible as Russian speaking immigrants in modern Finland. They are the recent descendants of immigrants from Eastern Europe (Finland is in the same time zone as Egypt and soldiers in the British Army Pechenga garrison received an East of Suez allowance in their pay). I realise that such immigrants annoy you by not trying to hide their heritage, but frankly I see no justification for such a requirement in a free society. If it’s OK for someone in Canada to be called Tolvanen and speak Finglish (Google it), then it’s equally acceptable for someone in Finland to be called Abdullah and speak suomali. Perhaps one day Lamminjärvi will also become Laminjärvi through a similar process.

    Your last paragraph reinforces my point. May we assume that you will now stop submitting bogus statistical arguments for the absurd thesis that merely crossing international borders turns people into criminals?

  12. Klay_Immigrant

    There you go still hanging on to exceptions trying to make them deceitfully appear as the norm like a fool such as the the small community of Finns in the Upper Michigan Peninsula. For every Finlandia University there will be hundreds of ghettos made up predominately of minorities where crime is a way of life.

    Immigrants like myself have a choice when moving to a new country. They can try and dilute their heritage and blend in with the natives doing as they do and be treated the same as an equal or they can amplify their heritage, and expect to be treated differently.

    By being treated differently there comes the good and the bad. The good could be for example for Muslims being allowed prayer time three times every weekday during office hours or having halal food at the canteen. Ofcourse they would never complain about that. But then the bad could be resentment or isolation which they would complain about. That’s double standards, if you preach about equality then you should complain about preferential treatment just as you should complain about obstacles. By asking to be treated different it’s unrealistically impossible to expect only positive outcomes to be experienced. That’s unfortunatley what most immigrants assume and inevitably are disappointed and cry racism.

    • Enrique

      –For every Finlandia University there will be hundreds of ghettos made up predominately of minorities where crime is a way of life.

      Do you want to broaden your horizons? Work as a voluntary social worker in a so-called ghetto. It will change your life. When you speak of otherness and diversity, you sound like you were speaking from a high stool. You are so high up that you cannot make out the details.

      As with your comment on invisible immigrants, the problem with that is that you are too much into ethnicity and race. In Finland, Russians are invisible minorities but when they open their mouths to speak they become magically very visible.

      Stop classifying people as if they were part of a flora or fauna species without free will.

    • Enrique

      One more point, Klay. Just admit you dislike Mulsims, all Muslims, and that they should never see the light of day in Europe. You hate their religion, their customs, their way of life and, on top of this, you are using nineteenth century anthopological concepts to classify them. You are totally off track.

    • Enrique

      –By being treated differently there comes the good and the bad.

      You just don’t phantom it, Klay. These are laws enshrined in our civil rights. My diversity is my right. What you are stating is, in effect, is don’t treat people differently, treat them in a way as if they did not exist. We can sit on our behinds and let them do the adapting. Bringing new cultures and people into society entitles me to do nothing.
      If I live in a society, I sure do have the right to influence and celebrate my Otherness. Or are you going to put ethnic, religious, and a score of other obstacles to impede me from enjoying these rights?

  13. xyz

    I don’t know what the problem is to have halal food or 3 prayer times a day? Others go smoking while at work. Also I know plenty of Muslims who don’t pray at all. And if there are plenty of people who want halal food why should they not serve it at the canteene? Also when I worked in the Arab Emirates they served western food there.

    About isolation. It’s always difficult at the beginning until you have built up a social network in a new country. I suppose in many cases your first friends will be those who have experience in immigrating in a new country. As a native you maybe don’t have necessarily the desire to make new friends. You have your group of friends which you know for ages and you are happy with them.

  14. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    The point is that migrants are entitled to seek one another’s company and to preserve and cherish their heritage. That is exactly what has happened in Hancock, Michigan. Pointing to such a community and saying ghetto is both an incorrect use of the term and an anti-constructive attitude towards the community in question. It says more about your own inability to come to terms with social diversity.

    A ghetto is, originally and above all, a place where members of a certain identifiable minority are forced to live. The degree of coercion involved varies between the point of a bayonet and various more subtle forms of social and economic pressure.

    The contrast is with a community of like-minded individuals that forms through the free exercise of individual and group autonomy. Same-language immigrant communities are an obvious example of this, but trade unions, religious congregations and even chess clubs form in the same way.

    The psychology of these communities and of the individuals within them will depend on the [perceived] attitude and behaviour of outsiders. If we made chess playing illegal or socially unwelcome tomorrow, then at least some chess players would form clandestine, outwardly defensive and inwardly very close-knit groups in order to continue their sport. Much of the present shameful invective against Islam has had a comparable effect on Moslem communities.

    This is why would-be cult leaders try to persuade their followers that the world is hostile and only the community can be trusted. The absolutely worst thing that can happen to a cult is for its members to realise that the world is really benignly indifferent to them, as in the absence of an external threat the members will then begin to examine the inclusive factors that keep them in the group.

  15. Tony Garcia

    Klay, once you “hate” Muslims let me ask you a question…

    Once I pointed out the differences between Muslims and Blacks in the US. How Blacks see themselves as Americans and Muslims only as Muslims. Obviously their outcome is quite different as well. Now I need your help to see the difference between Muslims and another minority – Jews.

    Tell me, do you have any idea how much Jews have helped built America? Can you tell me how much money they invested in schools, colleges and universities? How about libraries and research centers? Newspapers, hospitals, museums? How many business they own and how many Americans they employ?

    How about their personal contribution? How many Jews were/are prominent scientists, physicians, doctors, engineers? When we see Jews in the TV, their usually promote unity or controversy?

    Now please help me, what can we tall about Muslims in US?

    PS. Remember when you are attached that means you are doing just fine.

  16. Tiwaz

    -“–Migrants obviously come in all shapes and sizes, but they do tend to be self-starters who are willing to take risks and explore unfamiliar options.

    Isn’t it incredible that some can be so dim to think the opposite of immigrants? And on top of it to seek opportunistic political gain by spreading fear and hatred?0! This is beyond me but I guess that Europeans also come in very different shapes and sizes.”

    I expect PROOF that they are such. Go on, prove to me that huge majority of immigrants are bright eyed self-starters.

    In reality they tend to be closed minded bigots like you Enrique, who cannot handle living in country which is different and then demand that this country must appease them by changing to fit preferences of immigrant.

    My point is equally well proven in this blog as yours.

    -“Considering that non-Western citizens in Finland usually belong in the lowest income brackets or are on welfare then inevitably they will be overrepresented in crime statistics.
    -Give them work :)”

    What kind of job no-speak, no-training immigrant can do? Add in possibility that they can be no-read, no-write and no-understand culture too and you have what left in work list beyond dishwasher for local cafeteria? We only need THAT many dishwashers.

    Reality is that immigrants are unemployed because of their own fault.

    To be easily employed in Finland you must:

    1) Speak fluent Finnish (in some areas Swedish can replace, but never English)
    2) Have valid Finnish papers (we do not know what you have to know and be able to do to get foreign graduation papers so we grade them as worthless. That is what other countries do as well)
    3) Understand and be able to act according to Finnish culture. (If you do not fit into work community, only idiot immigrant expects employer to change it’s already working staff to appease one imbecile)

    As for Finns having left in the past to other countries… Who the fuck cares?
    Honestly? Why should Finns accept people just because some other nation accepted Finns in the past?
    It isn’t like Sweden and USA did something incredible. Both needed workers, quite often uneducated ones, and Finns fit the bill.

    Finland does not need uneducated workers so we would have to be stupid to take in workers who did fit the bill for 19th century immigration. This is 21st century, we need IT-specialists and specialists in general. Not “me no speak, me no know. Me job?”-immigrants.

  17. JusticeDemon

    The very fact that immigrants have travelled considerable distances to live in unfamiliar surroundings means that they cannot be typical of the majority who do not do this. Other things being equal, anyone who has migrated will be more of a self-starter than another member of the same original community who did not move. This is most evident in the case of voluntary migration for employment, but even in cases of forced migration we can see that self-starters are more likely to be exiled. People who move in search of opportunity tend to be the fittest and smartest. This is the origin of the expression brain drain.

    First and second-generation immigrants and refugees are hugely overrepresented among UK Nobel prize winners. Presumably this cannot all be due to shortcomings in the UK higher education and research communities. The children of immigrants significantly outperform their non-immigrant peers at school and in higher education in the UK and many other European countries. This is partly due to educational advantages that are inherent in bilingualism, but it also reflects higher general motivation levels and a determination to succeed. The drive to succeed is not always understood in educational terms, but is nearly always present in some form. Regardless of origin, it is highly unusual to find an immigrant who has no interest in working for personal or collective advancement. In the current vernacular, immigrant chav is almost a contradiction in terms.

    We have seen the same phenomenon in Finland, and we can expect this to become much more visible as immigrants are no longer pressured to change their names and otherwise hide their origins and heritage (cf. Oiva Adolfsen).

    • Enrique

      JusticeDemon, I could not have said it better. One matter I do not understand is how some think that immigrants are just a bunch of freeloaders. I consider that an insult taking into account that my great grandfather was a refugee and my parents were immigrants. I am grateful to them for making me into what I am today.

  18. Erik

    @Tiwaz

    <<>>

    I am an IT-student (Greek). Can I come? ahahaha

    On a serious note… do you really want a country full with Lawyers, Doctors and IT-specialists? lol

  19. Tiwaz

    -“On a serious note… do you really want a country full with Lawyers, Doctors and IT-specialists?”

    Yes, I want country loaded with specialists because we cannot compete with China in terms of cheap labor.

    We do not need huge supply of useless, skilless and poorly integrating human waste to feed off our welfare.

    -“JusticeDemon, I could not have said it better. One matter I do not understand is how some think that immigrants are just a bunch of freeloaders.”

    Because they are. If you are on welfare, you are freeloader. Disproportionate amount of immigrants are freeloaders.

    If immigrants were so smart and excellent in every way, why they are too stupid to learn Finnish language?

    Aamulehti few days ago published results of study which told that LEARNING FINNISH tends to radically improve employment of immigrants.

    Imagine that! Integration leads to jobs!

    Demon:
    -“We have seen the same phenomenon in Finland, and we can expect this to become much more visible as immigrants are no longer pressured to change their names and otherwise hide their origins and heritage (cf. Oiva Adolfsen).”

    I demand evidence of it.

    Evidence exists that by integrating into existing society (instead of demanding appeasement) improves immigrants lifestyle.

    THAT is proven fact (read Aamulehti as said).

    Demand of appeasement does not.

    You and enrique instead of whining how bad Finns are should concentrate your efforts in making it clear to immigrants that they have to change, not expect Finland to change.

    If they left their country, they left it in search of BETTER place. Demand that this BETTER place changes to their original INFERIOR place is idiotic.

    If they switched from better to worse, they are again idiots.

  20. Surakka

    >If you are on welfare, you are freeloader.

    I am a Finn and have lived in 4 other countries in the past 15 years. I am educated, my wife is educated and my children are educated. All of us are working.

    But, there are a disproportionate numbers of Finns who are uneducated and unmotivated to find any kind of work when to compared to other countries. The statitics of unemployment, currently stated to be 8.5%, is way out of balance because the statistics don’t count the students (who are looking for work)and the unemployed parents (who are currently on parental leave but have no jobs to return to) and the 55+ “early retirees” who would go to work for another 10 years but can’t find a job because there are no jobs for them and/or employers who would hire them. If all are counted, there could be easily be another 2-3 % on top of the “official” 8.5%. I would like to see statistics about of those 8.5%, how many are unemployed because they are just not willing to get off their butts and go to work as a cleaner or the like.

    Our social system (and the government policies) do not encourage those who are not educated and/or employed to find work- any work- to give themselves a sense of pride in themselves. Once they are on the system and find that they can survive somehow, there are many who stay on the system. For example, if a person was born in a small town and their family live in this small town, many choose to stay in that small town even though there is nothing but nothing to do for them there. The gov’t policy doesn’t make them move somewhere to get educated and/or employed if they choose not to. They might just remain on welfare for most of their lives and live off the taxes that we all pay. I am from a small town in Häme so know that this is all to familiar.

    To say that all immigrants are free-loaders is a bull-*hit. We are quite fortunate that many immigrants choose to come here..it might just bring about some kind of change to the system that will help our own home-grown freeloaders to get off their *sses and go to work.

    I have many friends who are originally from outside of Finland and who have brought business, knowledge and know-how to this country. These people I am sure you have not considered. The media wants to talk about the free-loaders and certain immigrant groups because they are sensational stories. Not many stories are published about the people who’ve been “successful” and I am certain that these people are tired of hearing about “immigrants” being bums and freeloaders. How very ignorant.

    Yes, yes.. I know that you talk about “some” immigrants who have not successfully integrated. And yes, there are some who are not ever going to integrate but it must be said that the number who will never integrate is probably close to the same number of idiot Finns who will ever get a job and contribute to our social system.

    And no, not every immigrant leaves their country in search of a better place. Finland is not a better place for many of them but it is a safe place. Many refugees have no choice but to leave their country. That is a distinction that many of my idiot countrymen do not consider when screaming about “immigrants not integrating”. If they could leave back to a safe home-country, many would.

    If anyone is at fault it is the Finnish politicans who have been too fearful of stand up and say “enough is enough”. The immigrant comes here, many times, simply because they can.

    • Enrique

      Hi Surakka, thank you for your candid thread, which I enjoyed reading. Immigration will help show the deficiencies in our system and will bring out qualities that we never knew about ourselves. Not everyone can integrate into society because it is an improbability. However, we should strive to integrate the most we can.

      With respect to the politicians, they are the ones to blame for many of the problems we have today. I have always been surprised by some who lack total leadership and cave into public opinion, which is a vague concept. If we leave Finland to some of them, I really feel sorry for this country.

      Like the ludicrous claim by the Social Democrats on maassa maan tavalla. This idiotic phrase shows that the some in the Social Democratic party have no idea about immigration and think that all they have to do is sit on their behinds and do nothing while “immigrants comply to maassa maan tavalla.”

  21. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Our social system (and the government policies) do not encourage those who are not educated and/or employed to find work- any work- to give themselves a sense of pride in themselves.’

    Unfortunately one of the problems of living in a socialist welfare state such as Finland, there will always be a few natives who take advantage of the system and are satisfied to sit on their ass all their life knowing full well they will be still be provided for. They are the under class and usually have generations before them in the same family who did the same. These people don’t have a gram of pride in their body. But this is not a problem unique to Finland, the Nordic countries, the U.K. or any other country with a generous welfare system experiences these same problems.

    ‘To say that all immigrants are free-loaders is a bull-*hit. We are quite fortunate that many immigrants choose to come here..’

    I don’t think anyone has ever said ALL immigrants are as such. But certain immigrant groups have shown to be a massive burden. When they are in a situation where more are on welfare than in employment then that’s a serious problem especially when they first had to be given permission to enter the country in the first place unlike EU citizens.

    -‘The media wants to talk about the free-loaders and certain immigrant groups because they are sensational stories. Not many stories are published about the people who’ve been “successful” and I am certain that these people are tired of hearing about “immigrants” being bums and freeloaders.’

    The media’s only concern is what will sell the most copies or have the most coverage. They aren’t interested in taking a non bias viewpoint on matters. Maybe that’s why as a journalist Enrique fails so miserably to apply the same rules and criteria for everyone and not to practise double standards. Tell me this Surakka what would be a bigger story, a burning Mosque in Helsinki or a buring Church? Same event just a different religion but one of them is more ‘sensational’ in the public’s mind. So immigrants aren’t always the victims.

    -‘And no, not every immigrant leaves their country in search of a better place. Finland is not a better place for many of them but it is a safe place. Many refugees have no choice but to leave their country.’

    You would have a point if Finland was a neighbour or even close to these war-torn countries, but it isn’t. Refugees could easily go to a neighbouring country and be safe but ofcourse these countries aren’t as rich as Finland so they do a bit of welfare shopping and discover Finland is very generous and decide that’s the place to be. It’s not like Finland is their last choice and if Finland doesn’t accept them they will destined for the slaughter house.

    • Enrique

      –I don’t think anyone has ever said ALL immigrants are as such. But certain immigrant groups have shown to be a massive burden.

      Yes, Klay, like blacks, Mexicans, Amerindians in the United States. You should take a course in economics to figure out how our system works. Even unemployed people need services which in turn employ others. So the adjective “massive” is far-fetched. What is a massive burden to society. How about starting from military spending? What about subsidies to the agricultural sector? I could go on but I think you get the message.

    • Enrique

      –The media’s only concern is what will sell the most copies or have the most coverage. They aren’t interested in taking a non bias viewpoint on matters. Maybe that’s why as a journalist Enrique fails so miserably to apply the same rules and criteria for everyone and not to practise double standards.

      I “love” your arguments. They are so easy to dissect and see where they are coming from. Apart from using adjectives like “massive” and “uncontrolled,” another pet word that you like to use is “double-standards.” Certainly, like those who predict the future with the help of a simple pocket calculator, you see society as black and white. You should thank those groups you belittle for strenghtening your ultra conservative views of society. They also help lift you in the social ladder of things (we kick others to rise up that social totem pole). So don’t be so ungrateful.

      People who see immigrants as a threat are also people that see ANY type of diversity as bad. As I have mentioned, it must be difficult for this minority to live in a society comprised by so much diversity. Maybe Greenland would be a “cool” place to live. But look out for those Inuits…

    • Enrique

      –“welfare shopping”

      Here is another loaded word that reals the idological colors of a person. Don’t knock it. One day when you become an old man and fall ill you may require some “welfare-shopping” skills.

  22. Surakka

    >Tell me this Surakka what would be a bigger story, a burning Mosque in Helsinki or a buring Church? Same event just a different religion but one of them is more ‘sensational’ in the public’s mind. So immigrants aren’t always the victims

    Is this a rhetorical question for me? I didn’t believe it necessary to write “sensational stories sell”. That would be obvious for most news-savvy adults, wouldn’t it?

    If you were asking me to answer the question about a mosque vs a church I would remind you of the attempted arson of the new Buddhist Temple in the Turku region 2 weeks ago. It was big news in Turku for a few days and there were quite a few people talking about it. I’m certain that the discussion would be a bit “riper” if someone had attempted to burn down Tuomiokirkko because of it’s status as an age-old monument. Don’t really get where you were going with this, however.

    • Enrique

      –Tell me this Surakka what would be a bigger story

      Surakka, I don’t think Klay even knows where he is going with this question. He should understand that arson is a crime irrespective of the religion.

  23. Surakka

    Klay wrote..
    >Refugees could easily go to a neighbouring country and be safe but ofcourse these countries aren’t as rich as Finland so they do a bit of welfare shopping and discover Finland is very generous and decide that’s the place to be. It’s not like Finland is their last choice and if Finland doesn’t accept them they will destined for the slaughter house.

    I would doubt that Finland is the first choice for an authentic refugee unless there are other family members here. If talking about a “quota refugee” then the refugee is kind of stuck here aren’t they? They haven’t had a choice in which country they find themselves? Many would much rather have a safe home country to return to and many would choose to return if they could.

    It is near impossible for us to come close to understanding fear for ones life. We live in a safe society (relatively speaking), we have clean water and a good infrastructure. I would hazard a guess that when a really real refugee is running for their life with their family, the last thing they would do is to “window shop” for countries. They go to the first country which offers them safety. If they sit in a refugee camp for 2 years, they won’t care which country they are sent to (nor do I believe at this point they have a choice). I think it quite patronizing to say that these refugees do anything other than feel grateful for the safety that this “other” country provides them.

    • Enrique

      Hi asd, welcome to Migrant Tales. Nice to see you here. You are right. That is why we have to fight this matter in other country’s as well. Just because it occurs elsewhere does not mean we have to take a passive attitutde.

  24. Tiwaz

    -“I am a Finn and have lived in 4 other countries in the past 15 years. I am educated, my wife is educated and my children are educated. All of us are working.”

    Good for you. Why should I care?

    -“But, there are a disproportionate numbers of Finns who are uneducated and unmotivated to find any kind of work when to compared to other countries. The statitics of unemployment, currently stated to be 8.5%, is way out of balance because the statistics don’t count the students (who are looking for work)and the unemployed parents (who are currently on parental leave but have no jobs to return to) and the 55+ “early retirees” who would go to work for another 10 years but can’t find a job because there are no jobs for them and/or employers who would hire them. If all are counted, there could be easily be another 2-3 % on top of the “official” 8.5%. I would like to see statistics about of those 8.5%, how many are unemployed because they are just not willing to get off their butts and go to work as a cleaner or the like.”

    Irrelevant. They are still freeloading the system no matter what the reason for it is.

    And yes, it is issue for unemployed if they want to work but can’t because there are no jobs for their skillset (or lack of it). So?

    If your skills are of no use, learn NEW ONES!
    Every man is first and foremost responsible for their own life. Sitting wailing and whining that you can get no job because your skills are not wanted is leech way to live.

    Find courses, learn new skills. Become contributer.

    -“Our social system (and the government policies) do not encourage those who are not educated and/or employed to find work- any work- to give themselves a sense of pride in themselves. Once they are on the system and find that they can survive somehow, there are many who stay on the system. For example, if a person was born in a small town and their family live in this small town, many choose to stay in that small town even though there is nothing but nothing to do for them there. The gov’t policy doesn’t make them move somewhere to get educated and/or employed if they choose not to. They might just remain on welfare for most of their lives and live off the taxes that we all pay. I am from a small town in Häme so know that this is all to familiar.”

    I do not deny this. What appears to elude you is that Enrique here always blames Finns being racists for reason that immigrants get no jobs. How about explaining to him that reason they get no jobs is that they have no skills?

    I already know this. It is blogs resident racists Enrique & Co who need to be told this.

    -“To say that all immigrants are free-loaders is a bull-*hit. We are quite fortunate that many immigrants choose to come here..it might just bring about some kind of change to the system that will help our own home-grown freeloaders to get off their *sses and go to work.”

    Unlikely until we have serious wakening of society to problems imported with immigrants. As it is we see from Enrique’s attitude that immigrants are The Holy Cow of liberal stupids.

    Telling immigrant that they are useless without learning new skills is considered racist.
    Not hiring immigrant is racist, even if immigrant has no useful skills to offer.

    Multiculturalism and whole concept of “immigrants are victims” have to go first, then when this is fixed we might have momentum to change rest of the system.

    -“I have many friends who are originally from outside of Finland and who have brought business, knowledge and know-how to this country. These people I am sure you have not considered.”

    How nice to see that you know what I have not considered. Perhaps you should see my posts instead of making an ass of yourself with assumptions.

    I have always stated that immigrants who come to Finland to adjust and work are welcome. I have repeatedly stated that I do not care what shade skin of person has as long as they do their utmost to fit in and be productive.

    I see little reason to repeatedly say “And there is the exception of those immigrants who actually work their asses off to integrate into society and learn skills which are useful in this country” because I have repeated that so many times as it is.

    -“The media wants to talk about the free-loaders and certain immigrant groups because they are sensational stories.”

    Because they ARE a huge and growing problem.

    -“Not many stories are published about the people who’ve been “successful” and I am certain that these people are tired of hearing about “immigrants” being bums and freeloaders. How very ignorant.”

    In other news, 100 000 cars travelled between Helsinki and Heinola and absolutely nothing took place.

    Why would successful immigrants need their tales published? Why concentrate on what works instead of what doesn’t work?

    Do you think your broken car becomes less broken if you pay extra attention to parts which DO work, or if you pay attention to parts which do NOT work?

    Besides, there is quite a lot of tales of successful immigrants in newspapers.

    -“Yes, yes.. I know that you talk about “some” immigrants who have not successfully integrated. And yes, there are some who are not ever going to integrate but it must be said that the number who will never integrate is probably close to the same number of idiot Finns who will ever get a job and contribute to our social system.”

    Problem is that when they are close to that number, it meanst they are disproportionally represented.

    Same as rape statistics we see here. 80% of rapes are committed by Finns. What people tend to forget is that Finns are 97% of population.

    -“And no, not every immigrant leaves their country in search of a better place. Finland is not a better place for many of them but it is a safe place. Many refugees have no choice but to leave their country.”

    So safe is not better? Perhaps you should get your priorities checked up by visiting less safe countries. Safety is HUGE portion of “better”.

    -“That is a distinction that many of my idiot countrymen do not consider when screaming about “immigrants not integrating”. If they could leave back to a safe home-country, many would.”

    Cry me a river. Here is world’s smallest violin playing to those people.

    I
    do
    not
    care.

    Their homeland is crap. Too bad. I feel sympathy to them, but not enough to make me want to sacrifice my SAFE and WORKING home society to make them feel at home.

    Their home is bad because system there does not work. So they better leave their native society behind if they want to live in Finland in safety.

    What good it does to anyone if failed society from country which is no longer safe is brought to Finland to ruin safety here?

    -“If anyone is at fault it is the Finnish politicans who have been too fearful of stand up and say “enough is enough”. The immigrant comes here, many times, simply because they can.”

    Indeed. And they stay because they can. But to change that we must first strike down stupidity of multiculturalism.

    Immigrants must be made understand that Finland has it’s own set of values and traditions which trumps theirs.

    And we must deport criminal immigrants without mercy.

    My priority is to try to ensure that finland remains safe, working society for my children and grandchildren to live in. Not to make Finland safe haven and free playground for whatever immigrants/refugees want to come here.

  25. Surakka

    Tiwaz wrote..
    >Good for you. Why should I care?

    Because it’s important to understand that I am working and that I am a Finn and that I do have a family (for whose safety I’m concerned about) and that I am a Finn who understands that the way to progress is by understanding all sides of situation.

    Tiwaz wrote..

    >Irrelevant. They are still freeloading the system no matter what the reason for it is.

    There is no irrelevance in the fact that there are freeloaders on both sides of the situation. Can’t scream about freeloading immigrants without looking at the freeloading Finns. Same problem, different sets of genetics. The system fails in general. Freeloading is done simply because it can.

    Tiwaz wrote..

    >What appears to elude you is that Enrique here always blames Finns being racists for reason that immigrants get no jobs.

    No, your “points” don’t elude me. I just don’t support them. Have I missed the spot where he states “Finns are racist”? I’m not so I don’t jump to conclusions (illusions?) that someone would say that I am.

    Tiwaz wrote..

    >Unlikely until we have serious wakening of society to problems imported with immigrants.

    I would add to this that the problems of our society are not due to immigrants. They’ve been around for awhile. We have created our own mess. The system doesn’t work the way it used to because of many things..higher salaries, understanding of what’s outside our borders, globalised companies, greed, etc. etc.. It’s way too easy to blame the immigrant for all of our own home-grown problems.

    Tiwaz wrote..

    >Cry me a river. Here is world’s smallest violin playing to those people.

    I
    do
    not
    care.

    I do care. I care about what’s happening now and what will happen in the future. Fighting with “progress” gets us nowhere. I care about my family and my ancestors, I care about my country and I care about my own safety and security. Movement from one country to the next is not going to stop. Our politicians must get busy and be proactive instead of reacting when it’s too late.

    Tiwaz wrote..

    >Immigrants must be made understand that Finland has it’s own set of values and traditions which trumps theirs.

    Oh man..

    • Enrique

      –I would add to this that the problems of our society are not due to immigrants. They’ve been around for awhile. We have created our own mess. The system doesn’t work the way it used to because of many things..higher salaries, understanding of what’s outside our borders, globalised companies, greed, etc. etc.. It’s way too easy to blame the immigrant for all of our own home-grown problems.

      Thank you for these wise words, Surakka. It is interesting to note that immigrants who come to Finland are exposing the pitfalls in our system. Immigration awakens the good, bad and ugly in our societies.

  26. Surakka

    Enrique wrote..

    >It is interesting to note that immigrants who come to Finland are exposing the pitfalls in our system. Immigration awakens the good, bad and ugly in our societies.

    Note, though, that this is nothing new to countries with massive immigration numbers. It’s not unique to this country and in all fairness, both sides need to recognise that there needs to be flexibility and understanding on the side they find themselves.

    Immigration is new here. There are many many MANY people who’ve never met an immigrant before. We know that fear is breed by things/people that we no nothing about. And this fear brings about a need to “protect” our own.

    Although I don’t support the anti-immigration idiots, I don’t support aggression on the side of the immigrant, either. Everyone need to remember that progress will not be made if aggressive words and ultimatums are used.

    Slow and easy so that people don’t feel threatened on either side and people begin to trust and understand the each other.

  27. Tony Garcia

    “… both sides need to recognise that there needs to be flexibility and understanding on the side they find themselves.”

    In my opinion what you have just said is very wise. The problem is that neither skin-heads or multicultural-hippies like the word “both”.

  28. Ariel Deutscher

    It is practically impossible to make the average Finn trust the foreign that is presented to them rather in the media than in their daily life. Before there can be any real trust between the different ethnic groups there also has to be interaction between them. Even in Helsinki this is happening at the moment only to certain extent, elsewhere not at all.

    There are already many enough members of ethnic minorities in Finland to be perceived as a threat, but way too few to be perceived as anything else by the general population. For a positive development it would be necessary to create situations for the different cultures and their individual members to interact with eachother en masse. It will take years and hundreds of thousands of additional immigrants before anything of the sort will be possible in Finland.

    Until then it is clear that we will see a continuing rise of racist ideologies, the only question is if these ideologies before reaching their zenit and waning away will manage to destroy the seeds for a positive progress or not. Violent ethnic conflicts could certainly poison the soil for a very long time.

    • Enrique

      Hi Ariel, and welcome to Migrant Tales. Thank you for sharing your experiences in Finland with us. I agree that still a lot of work has to be done on both sides to create more interaction. The good news, however, is that it is happening. The biggest threat to Finland today are not immigrants as some may falsely claim, but the Finns themselves. Finnish society grew and matured because it learned to live in harmony with each other. Finland should not make the perilous mistake of creating a society where racism has the upper hand. If that happened, the biggest loser would be Finland.

      We look forward to hearing more of your ideas on this topic.

  29. Surakka

    Tony Garcia wrote…

    >In my opinion what you have just said is very wise. The problem is that neither skin-heads or multicultural-hippies like the word “both”.

    All children need to get along in the sandbox even if the sandbox is in someone else’s neighbourhood!

  30. Tony Garcia

    “All children need to get along in the sandbox even if the sandbox is in someone else’s neighbourhood!”

    Not quite sure how this reinforced or debunked what I said…

  31. Tony Garcia

    “…everyone needs to get along with others who may seem different.”

    That depends on what the “difference” is.

    • Enrique

      Tony, Surakka has a point: modern societies are diverse. We must learn to share our sandbox. Why? Because we will end up without a sandbox.

  32. Ariel Deutscher

    Thank you.

    I have let myself understand that the national unity in Finland is rather the armistice and later peace between the socialists and the conservatives, created by the events surrounding the Second World War.

    About the ethnic harmony between the indigenous groups I wouldn’t be so sure; the Finnish are by far the biggest ethnic group in the country and dominate the society, granting the Swedish a recognised status with plenty of privileges thus securing a state of peaceful co-existence. The smaller ethnic groups do not have such status and are even persecuted; the Roma face hatred wherever they go and the Sami are still missing their land that was stolen by the government during the early years of independence.

    Even the peace between the Finnish and the Swedish seems uneasy as its terms seem to be considered too generous and even rejected by the general population. The old political elite of both sides has respected the peace, but this remaining the case should not be taken as granted should a new political elite be elected in power.

  33. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, Surakka has a point”

    Of course he does, He’s spot on. However my point is still valid, for skin-heads and multiculturalists the word “both” doesn’t exist.

    One example? Simple, look at your own blog, I asked 5 times already for you to show us an article you have written with criticizes immigrants. I got nothing, why? Because such article doesn’t exists, however what it does exists here is…

    “The biggest threat to Finland today are not immigrants as some may falsely claim, but the Finns themselves.”

    • Enrique

      –I got nothing, why? Because such article doesn’t exists, however what it does exists here is…

      Why don’t you write it and I will publish it.

  34. Tony Garcia

    “Why don’t you write it and I will publish it.”

    It’s your blog mate, but you could stop saying that you believe in the “two ways road” and admit you have a bias.

  35. Tiwaz

    -“Because it’s important to understand that I am working and that I am a Finn and that I do have a family (for whose safety I’m concerned about) and that I am a Finn who understands that the way to progress is by understanding all sides of situation.”

    But do you have contact with the “enrichment” of multiculturalism?

    I happen to live in one of the more multicultural areas of Finland. And I see the bad of multiculturalism.

    If you do not see the bad side but just take the politically correct stance, your background is worthless.

    -“There is no irrelevance in the fact that there are freeloaders on both sides of the situation. Can’t scream about freeloading immigrants without looking at the freeloading Finns. Same problem, different sets of genetics. The system fails in general. Freeloading is done simply because it can.”

    Again stupidity of genetics. It has nothing to do with genetics, it has to do with culture and more or less point of origin.

    I have never said there are no issues with Finns being freeloaders. But only a total imbecile thinks that adding MORE freeloaders would somehow alleviate the problem. Problem exists as it is, importing more freeloaders will not help solve it.

    -“I do care. I care about what’s happening now and what will happen in the future. Fighting with “progress” gets us nowhere. I care about my family and my ancestors, I care about my country and I care about my own safety and security. Movement from one country to the next is not going to stop. Our politicians must get busy and be proactive instead of reacting when it’s too late. ”

    Which is why our whole attitude towards immigration has to change. It’s problems are never addressed, immigrants are treated always as victims. That does not work.

    -“No, your “points” don’t elude me. I just don’t support them. Have I missed the spot where he states “Finns are racist”? I’m not so I don’t jump to conclusions (illusions?) that someone would say that I am. ”

    Read the bloody blog. “Finnish xenophobia” “where does Finnish xenophobia stem” “racist this and that in Finland” “immigrants victims of racist attack” etc etc. He may not say it flat out but he definitely constantly proclaims how racist Finns are.
    He just uses word xenophobia to try to elude you.

    -“Oh man..”

    That is only method of immigration that works. When I go abroad, I accept that local cultural tradition takes preference. I expect same courtesy from every foreigner coming to Finland.

    -“The smaller ethnic groups do not have such status and are even persecuted; the Roma face hatred wherever they go and the Sami are still missing their land that was stolen by the government during the early years of independence.”

    Ah, the Roma. The folk who refuse to play by common rules (to use sandbox analogy, they refuse to play along and decide that their rules trump rules of everyone else). Have you noticed how Roma tend to fail to make good impression anywhere? There are serious issues with their own culture which they have to sort out. Their own members have said that.

    Saame on other hand. What land was stolen and do you have credible source on it? Including proof that it was their property originally?
    They have full right to use government areas for their traditional reindeer herding and so forth. Saame appear to have no issues with any racism.

    Nor do Jews. Or Tatars.

    Only groups who say they have issues with racism are ones who refuse to adjust to Finnish society and instead demand that society adjusts to them.

  36. Surakka

    Tiwaz wrote…

    >But only a total imbecile thinks that adding MORE freeloaders would somehow alleviate the problem. Problem exists as it is, importing more freeloaders will not help solve it.

    And the prize to the most ibecilic of the imbeciles goes to…the politicians/EU mandates. Not the immigrants or the Finns. We’re left to pick up the pieces.

    The freeloading Finn most likely comes from a family of free-loaders who have been freeloading for decades/generations. Nothing has been done to fix the problem and force them out of their holes ie..work/go back to school or you get nothing.
    This isn’t a threat on the social net we have because if you truly needed it then you’d be looked after.

    The free-loading immigrant? Why should the treatment be different after they’ve been given a chance to acclimate? If Finland has politically/legally accepted them in to the country, we now have an obligation to help them acclimate.–language, housing, education, healthcare, etc etc. We are a welfare state afterall. If we have too many freeloaders, then politicians needs to stop the flood-gates.

    Can’t blame “the child” for being brought in to this world. It’s the parents who must own up to the responsibility and raise and nurture “it” until it’s ready to go out in to the world.

  37. Tiwaz

    -“And the prize to the most ibecilic of the imbeciles goes to…the politicians/EU mandates. Not the immigrants or the Finns. We’re left to pick up the pieces.”

    And politicians do what they do because multiculturalist clique is given too much voice.

    Voice of criticism is declared racist, evil and generally horrible so that status quo can be maintained until it collapses.

    -“The freeloading Finn most likely comes from a family of free-loaders who have been freeloading for decades/generations.”

    Actually, those cases tend to belong to certain cultural minorities.

    Or perhaps you just know more generation based freeloaders. I know some cases of worthless Finnish wastes of space, but rarely they are generational. More along likes of black sheep of the family.

    -“The free-loading immigrant? Why should the treatment be different after they’ve been given a chance to acclimate? If Finland has politically/legally accepted them in to the country, we now have an obligation to help them acclimate.–language, housing, education, healthcare, etc etc.”

    Ah, I am all for treating them equally. Problem with Enrique and rest of multiculturalists is that they want PREFERENTIAL treatment for immigrants.

    Enrique here whines repeatedly how immigrants are massively unemployed and then declares it is because Finns are racist.

    He still has failed to explain how “no speak, no understand(cultural) and no skill”-immigrant would be beneficial for employer.

    Issue is that whenever someone tells that immigrants are not pulling their weight, we have racism-card drawn out and people like Enrique scream bloody murder.

    -“We are a welfare state afterall. If we have too many freeloaders, then politicians needs to stop the flood-gates.”

    But flood-gates cannot be closed because they “enrich” our society! To close the gates, or at least make them smaller, we would have to publically acknowledge that immigrants are causing problems in this society which have to be rectified until they get out of hand.

  38. Surakka

    Tiwaz wrote..

    >And politicians do what they do because multiculturalist clique is given too much voice.

    And who gives them too much voice? If there was a calm, rational and intelligent voice on the “other side”, the “other side” would sound less like whiners.

    Tiwaz wrote..

    >Enrique here whines repeatedly how immigrants are massively unemployed and then declares it is because Finns are racist.

    People can say what the want because our constitution allows for freedom of speech. WE have no control over what others say but we DO have control over how we respond to anything anyone says. Tell me…what bothers you so much about what other people say? I mean, honestly… why get so worked up about something to a point of sounding defensive every time a line is written?

    We, as Finns, are sounding like defenseless victims if we keep whining about immgiration. It’s embarassing to hear people whine about “how the immigrant is sucking all the money from the system”, etc. It’s us that have given it to them in the first place.

    And quite honestly, we are not a multicultural country nor will we ever be multicultural simply because we are Finnish. We do have and will continue to have an immigrant population but I don’t believe we as a nation (or we as Finns) will ever describe ourselves as multicultural. It’s not about “keeping up with the Jones'” from across the pond.

    If our policy continues to encourage immigration, then that’s what will happen but just because we have people from other countries come to Finland doesn’t mean that we loose everything that defines us as Finns.

    What’s happened has happened and there is no changing it. We can dwell on the past errors of our politicians (ie Kekkonen) or we can look to the future and ensure that we are designing a policy that will encourage pride in being Finnish without all the defensiveness.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique here whines repeatedly how immigrants are massively unemployed and then declares it is because Finns are racist.

      Contrary to Tiwaz, whenever I speak of racism in Finland I mean some Finns as opposed to ALL Finns. Please do not put words in my mouth.

    • Enrique

      Surakka, again wise words. It is quite interesting that some Finns and their politicians have hopped on the anti-immigrant bandwagon. They claim that all of our problems are caused by immigrants. Immigrants are, however, exposing the holes in the present system that Finns have built.

      The only way we can go forward is by looking to the future. This means INCLUDING all of the members and parts of our society. It does not mean, like some anti-democratic ultra-right-wing groups suggest, to water down our civil rights.

      Those group that claim to defend “Finnish culture” are the very ones that will end up destroying the country. They will impoverish it and scare away Finns and labor immigrants never mind jobs and foreign investment. Finland will be its worst enemy if that happens.

  39. Ariel Deutscher

    Tiwaz,

    the common rules you are referring to are the rules of the Finnish majority. However it can not be that indigenous ethnic minorities have to accept the rules of the ethnic majority when it comes to their own culture. If a peaceful co-existence proves impossible then it’s the time to separate an own independent homeland for the minority. If the Roma and their culture are not welcomed in the society, then they must have their own.

    As for the Sami, the ILO Indigenous and Tribal Peoples Convention guarantees the indigenous peoples the ownership and the right to purchase to the land they are traditionally living on.

    The land was also legally guaranteed to the Sami in the 1751 Treaty of Strömstad. However already during the Grand Duchy, but especially during the early years of Finland’s independence the state started to treat the land as its own which finally culminated in the water boundary issue in the 1970’s as the Sami were once again entirely walked over by the authorities.

    They found their own parliament in 1973 and have been fighting for their rights ever since, with notably few success. At the moment the situation of the Sami in Norway of those in Finland are like from two different worlds – the others have been guaranteed all their human rights and the others are not.

    And it certainly isn’t so that the indigenous peoples should adjust to the society of the Finnish majority. The majority should adjust to living with the minorities in a way that guarantees all of their rights and freedoms.

  40. Tony Garcia

    Ariel I think you are right. That’s why I don’t like to say that we live in a “democracy” but in a “constitutional republic”. Democracy alone would allow a majority of 50% +1 to removed any rights from the rest 49% of the population. In a constitutional republic there is so much the majority can do.

    That been said, I think it’s very important to take this in consideration when drawing our immigration policy. Unfortunately some cultures from Asia or Africa are incompatible with our western society. Many western countries have been trying to accommodate these cultures with basically no success, creating a massive group of marginalized people living in parallel societies, breading hatred, resentment, discontent and all sort of social ills.

    Luckily, so far, Finland has not been affected by this problem, but it may soon, if our immigration policy stays as it is.

    Finland needs a wise and fair immigration policy with takes in consideration Finland’s best interest attracting adaptable educated workers to fulfill its needs without create more and greater problems.

  41. Surakka

    Enrique wrote..

    >Those group that claim to defend “Finnish culture” are the very ones that will end up destroying the country.

    The reason that I chose to write on this blog is to lend a voice to the discussion as a Finn.

    I don’t believe that the above is true. Most Finns will defend Finnish culture from evaporating into the mist but not many of us will do so while destroying the country.

    The loud mouths who slam the fact that Finland needs educated and skilled foreign people, who fill in the holes of our population, generally have no base in the reality of the situation: our population is decreasing.

    Finns are Finns and it’s just going to take time for the majority of Finns to get used to the fact that there will be people living in the country who are not ethnically related to us.

    As I wrote earlier, both sides in this issue need to take a step back and get to understand each other. We are slow to warm to our Finnish neighbours that live next door to us but over time we do get to know them and perhaps somewhat of a friendship develops. If a person from another country moves in as a neighbour it might take a bit more time to warm to them but our not warming quickly is generally not because we are racist, it’s because that is just the way we are.

    I see/read about both sides angrily pointing fingers at each other. It’s not all one sided.

    • Enrique

      –I don’t believe that the above is true. Most Finns will defend Finnish culture from evaporating into the mist but not many of us will do so while destroying the country.

      Surakka, let me clarify what I said. I meant that those ultra-right groups that claim to be “defending” our culture are the ones that will destroy it. Why? Because there model strongly hinges on exclusion and lack of respect for other cultures. And, anyway, if we are sincere cultures change all the time. We are part of the change.

      The idea that some group can come and devour another culture is total nonsense. The Nazis tried it in many parts of Europe as did the Serbians in the former Yugoslavia. It simply did not even work then with the help of outlandish means.

  42. Tony Garcia

    “… it might take a bit more time to warm to them but our not warming quickly is generally not because we are racist, it’s because that is just the way we are. ”

    I think this is the whole point, accept that we are in Finland not in our own country. The day we start doing that our life will chance for better, however I still think that for many play the race card is just to tempting.

    • Enrique

      –I think this is the whole point, accept that we are in Finland not in our own country.

      Tony, again, how many times must a state to you: read the constitution of Finland, the equality act and study our way of life today. When a country accepts a person as its legal resident, he/she is a member of that society. They have a right to participate, celebrate and cherish who they are. Finns have the same right. But one important underlying factor: They are all from the same community as equals coming from diverse backgrounds.

      Addition: The notion that cultures don’t change and therefore are incompatible with our culture is one of the favorite pet arguments of anti-immigration circles. They think that cultures remain in a state of suspended animation and its members are guided like robots to do everything their culture states. Wrong.

      It is all very simple from all sides: First step acceptance, second immediate step opportunity. You have those two elements in place and you have a working model.

  43. Tony Garcia

    And how many times must I state to you: don’t complain about the result.

    Those of us who decided to do the right thing are doing very well indeed. Can you say the same about the others?

    “They think that cultures remain in a state of suspended animation and its members are guided like robots to do everything their culture states.”

    Quite the opposite, cultures do change, and a lot. Islam just did, from moderate to terrorism.

    “You have those two elements in place and you have a working model.”

    When the cultures are compatible? Absolutely, you do have indeed.

    • Enrique

      –When the cultures are compatible?

      So you decide when they are compatible? Oy vey!

      The truth is that we share a very different perception and values of society. Did you learn to mistrust a certain religious group in Brazil? I don’t think so. There you learn to loathe the poor but not Muslims. So, what you have learned, and your strong opinions on the subject must be from Europe.

  44. Surakka

    Tony Garcia wrote…

    >Quite the opposite, cultures do change, and a lot. Islam just did, from moderate to terrorism.

    For an intellegent discussion, definitions must be accurate and understood. Islam (a religion) is not a culture.

    Culture includes the behaviour, customs, beliefs, arts, habits and values, among other things, that define a society or nation. Religion may be a part of (a) culture but is not the sole definer of a culture.

  45. Klay_Immigrant

    But there is Islamic culture Surakka which is intertwined very closely with Islam. No other culture and religion are so intimately related.

  46. Klay_Immigrant

    For example male circumcision is a common practise in the Islamic World. No passage or sentence in the Qur’an mentions it but it is considered a ‘Sunnah’ which is an Arabic word that means habit or usual practice. The Muslim usage of this term refers to the sayings and living habits of Muhammad, the last prophet of Islam.

    • Enrique

      –For example male circumcision is a common practise in the Islamic World.

      It is also a common practice among Jews never mind in the United States. So?

  47. Tiwaz

    -“And who gives them too much voice? If there was a calm, rational and intelligent voice on the “other side”, the “other side” would sound less like whiners.”

    Issue here is that the multiculturalist side does not want debate. Try to start debate and point out it’s failures and all you have is people screming “RACIST!” “NAZI” and that’s it.

    Racism and nazism are used by pro-multiculturalists as some kind of “I Win”-button, pressed immediately when failures of multicultural society are pointed out.

    -“People can say what the want because our constitution allows for freedom of speech. WE have no control over what others say but we DO have control over how we respond to anything anyone says. Tell me…what bothers you so much about what other people say? I mean, honestly… why get so worked up about something to a point of sounding defensive every time a line is written?”

    Once upon a time one man said “All it takes for evil to win is that good men do nothing”.
    I strongly believe, based on my personal experience and having studied from distance, that multiculturalism is a rot upon humanity.

    Now, if I, and nobody else either, do not stand up against it and draw line in the sand and say that no further what would be there to stop this rot?

    Someone always has to take the first step.

    -“We, as Finns, are sounding like defenseless victims if we keep whining about immgiration. It’s embarassing to hear people whine about “how the immigrant is sucking all the money from the system”, etc. It’s us that have given it to them in the first place.”

    And if we do not speak up against it, we are defenseless victims. If there is no opposition to people who want to import more immigrants and implement failed ideas of multiculturalism, then they win by default.

    -“If our policy continues to encourage immigration, then that’s what will happen but just because we have people from other countries come to Finland doesn’t mean that we loose everything that defines us as Finns.”

    But we will unless we stand up for our values and traditions. Nobody else gives a crap about Finnish values and traditions. If we start to appease foreigners by accepting THEIR cultural way of life as equal or replacement to Finnish, we erode our own cultural heritage.

    -“What’s happened has happened and there is no changing it. We can dwell on the past errors of our politicians (ie Kekkonen) or we can look to the future and ensure that we are designing a policy that will encourage pride in being Finnish without all the defensiveness.”

    Alas, we must stand up for our heritage, our culture and way of life. For if we do not, nobody else will do it for us. If we give in to foreigners demanding that things must be done their way, we lose parts of our identity.

    Look at Enrique here. He wants to proclaim himself as a Finn. Yet culturally he could not be further away from Finn. If we Finns accept him as one of us, how can we anymore define ourselves as Finns?

    Being defensive of your own identity, heritage and culture is not bad. We are 5 million people in world with 6 billion humans.

    Enriqe:
    -“The idea that some group can come and devour another culture is total nonsense. The Nazis tried it in many parts of Europe as did the Serbians in the former Yugoslavia. It simply did not even work then with the help of outlandish means.”

    It is not nonsense. Many cultures have died out that way, they have been absorbed and assimilated by stronger culture.

    Or when was last time you heard of Etruscans? They are gone, their culture is gone. Their descendants call themselves Romans, then later on Italians.

    Picts? Gone. Absorbed and vanished.

    Yugoslavia by all accounts is actually prime example of why multicultural society fails. “Sharing” space does not work when groups have different wants to how the space is used.

    Multiculturalism is pretty idea, but that’s all it is. In real world it is not functional principle and should be tossed to same trashcan where other failed ideals like communism and anarchism are.

    • Enrique

      Hi xyz, thank you for the link. It is a good matter that there is more debate on this important topic.

  48. Tiwaz

    -“The loud mouths who slam the fact that Finland needs educated and skilled foreign people, who fill in the holes of our population, generally have no base in the reality of the situation: our population is decreasing. ”

    Just have to point this one out as totally false.
    Our population is decreasing only because we, and most of the world, had odd fluke of population boom post WW-2.

    Trying to maintain that fluke by importing people to keep population high, when we have no jobs for EXISTING people, is stupid.

    What Finland should do is limit import of people, accept that our population will experience a dip when people from the babyboom die out and live on.

    Birthrates have started climbing again, and this statistical fluke will sort itself out soon enough.

    Going bananas and starting to think we need to import more people to replace dying ones is stupid unless we have serious shortage of workers. And with amount of layoffs etc that have become the trend, we can afford to ignore that one.

    If, and that is strong if, there will be need for importing more workers, that can be dealt with when that time arrives.

    Trying to import people into “storage” is stupid and counterproductive as they will cause expenses and disrupt community cohesion through cultural conflicts.

    • Enrique

      –Birthrates have started climbing again, and this statistical fluke will sort itself out soon enough.

      17% of the Finnish population was over 65 years old in 2007. In order to maintain the present age structure you would have to bring 2 million people by 2040. By then, over 30% of the population will be over 65. Who is going to pay taxes to maintain our welfare system? But go ahead and cover your eyes and leave the future of Finland to chance.

  49. xyz

    If, and that is strong if, there will be need for importing more workers, that can be dealt with when that time arrives.
    -And they will all learn Finnish within 4 weeks 🙂

  50. Klay_Immigrant

    xyz read the article, Finland isn’t squandering anything if there are better native people being employed instead.

    If I was in Finland applying for jobs with non fluent Finnish language skills competing with Finns with similar qualifications, experience and who obviously speak Finnish as their mother tongue I wouldn’t expect to get the job. I know I would have to be much better than them. Why should a company spend money on a new employee like myslef to raise my Finnish language up to standard when they can eliminate that cost in time and money hiring somebody else just as qualified. Wouldn’t make sound economic sense.

    If that sounds unfair well we all aren’t be born rich. I know what position I’m in and I would be a fool travelling to Finland thinking otherwise. I made the decision to go and I should know the consequences and barriers. As Tiwaz would say I should ‘suck it up’ and if I don’t succeed I always have the option of going into my own country and being treated as the king (first priority). People forget that Finns dont have that option if they are overlooked in their own country.

  51. Klay_Immigrant

    I know that Enrique I never said it was ONLY practised in Islamic countries but was explaining why it is justified for Muslims to carry it out according to their beliefs.

  52. Tony Garcia

    Sorry Surakka, you are right, if you see my previous post you’ll notice I always write culture/religion.

    “It is also a common practice among Jews. So?”

    So… The the Jewish culture/religion is a great asset to every western society they are present. How much Jewish money, work and effort do you find invested in American’s schools, universities, hospitals, research centers, newspapers, libraries, etc? How much Islamic do you find?

    How much money spent in airport security is due Jewish terrorism? How much is due Islamic terrorism?

  53. xyz

    Why should a company spend money on a new employee like myslef to raise my Finnish language up to standard when they can eliminate that cost in time and money hiring somebody else just as qualified.
    -Maybe because Finland relies on exports and that foreign people could bring some skills in which are more important than speaking fluent Finnish? There are only 7 companies out of the 50 largest companies in Finland according to Helsingin Sanomat which are hiring or planning to hire employees with a foreign background.

  54. Klay_Immigrant

    xyz, you’ve said that before and it’s just not true anymore. In the 1950’s or before yes but due to globilization now there’s no need to actually have a physical person around to implement foreign ideas or concepts.

  55. xyz

    Sari Korkalainen, an education consultant at Helsinki’s Education Department, says multiculturalism is part of everyday life at schools in Helsinki, and these language classes support immigrant children’s integration into Finnish society.

    This year the Confederation of Finnish Industries, a business lobbyist, called on educators to persuade pupils to study more foreign languages to prepare them for the increasingly international Finland of the future.

    Half of these firms said they believe the importance of Russian for their business will increase in the future. Other hot languages on the radar are Portuguese, Chinese and Spanish, reflecting budding Finnish business interests in Latin America and China.

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/10/multicultural_kids_hold_on_to_linguistic_heritage_2039334.html?origin=rss

  56. Tony Garcia

    “… globilization now there’s no need to actually have a physical person around to implement foreign ideas or concepts.”

    Not only globalization but also technology. The second team I worked in when in Nokia had 25 engineers, 20 in Tampere, 5 in Dallas. The project went on nice and smoothly.

  57. Surakka

    Tiwaz wrote..

    >Once upon a time one man said “All it takes for evil to win is that good men do nothing”.
    I strongly believe, based on my personal experience and having studied from distance, that multiculturalism is a rot upon humanity.

    I have no comments about multiculturalism because I am still not convinced that our foreign policy makers will go that far. Thus far, it’s all about “getting along” not about “melting together”. There’s a big difference.

    Re: your above “wise words quote”.. Another proverb states “keep your friends close but your enemies closer”. I would replace the word enemy in that proverb to something else like “unknown person/culture”. In order to keep those close to us we can’t be pissing people off to the point of defensiveness.

    And it’s not about debate, but about discussion. When you and your mates/wife/partner/kids have a difference in opinion, is it always a debate? How does that work your you? Both sides get angry and walk away thinking about how they can strike back the next time.

  58. Ariel Deutscher

    Mr. Garcia,

    to be fair it must be noted that the United States owes the Arab states already 250 billion dollars in public debt through the US Treasury Securities alone, and that the total US aid to Israel is well over 100 billion dollars by now – alone the military aid to Israel being roughly 3 billion dollars a year.

    The Israel Lobby in the United States is no charity, even if it uses charity generously in its lobbyism. As Zbigniew Brzezinski put it while commenting the excellent research work on the subject by the professors Mearsheimer and Walt:

    “Over the years Israel has been the beneficiary of privileged — indeed, highly preferential — financial assistance, out of all proportion to what the United States extends to any other country. The massive aid to Israel is in effect a huge entitlement that enriches the relatively prosperous Israelis at the cost of the American taxpayer. Money being fungible, that aid also pays for the very settlements that America opposes and that impede the peace process.”

    P.S. The money spent on airport security in the United States and Europe is spent largely for other reasons than fighting terrorism. If you have ever visited the Tel Aviv airport you know what the difference between real security and propaganda for political purposes is.

    Religious extremism as such is a real problem that has became increasingly hard to address after the west decided to make the Islamic terrorist their very own bogeyman. The real threat are the real life organisations such as Hamas or Hizbollah, not the imagined-up fairytale ones like al-Qaida.

  59. Tony Garcia

    wow… That’s quite a response. Let’s go point by point…

    1. Please don’t call me Mr. Garcia, I’m not that old, Tony will do just fine.

    2. First, I’m not talking about Arab or Jewish state, but the Jewish and Islamic community living the western countries. Second, most of the profit SA makes is used to spread Islam rather than altruistically help others.

    3. “… is spent largely for other reasons than fighting terrorism.” – could you please enlighten us on this subject, then?

    4.”…and propaganda for political purposes is.” – With the whole west bending backwards ever time a Muslim demands appeasement, I wonder what these “political purposes” would be.

    5. “… not the imagined-up fairytale ones like al-Qaida.” – How do I ask this? let’s try it… You don’t really believe 911 as inside job do you?

    • Enrique

      –Second, most of the profit SA makes is used to spread Islam rather than altruistically help others.

      That’s a lot of money. Remember that Saudi Arabia is a long-termy ally of the United States. They have a very special relationship.
      Can you corroborate what you said about the money you claim is being spent on spreading Islam?

  60. Tony Garcia

    “Remember that Saudi Arabia is a long-termy ally of the United States. They have a very special relationship.”

    You have said it before and I did acknowledge, this is truth and I can’t deny it.

    SA is investing lot of money in Islamic centers, Islamic schools, mosques and literature in the west, you don’t know that? Who’s financing the mega mosque in UK near the 2012 Olympic Stadium?

    However I still haven’t seen one hospital that attends the public built with SA money in the US or UK. Can you name one hospital in the US built with Jewish money?

    • Enrique

      –SA is investing lot of money in Islamic centers, Islamic schools, mosques and literature in the west, you don’t know that? Who’s financing the mega mosque in UK near the 2012 Olympic Stadium?

      Why is this important to you, Tony? Let them build an enomrous mosque. So what. The cathedral in Milan is pretty massive as is the one in the Vatican and in many other places. What are you afraid of?

  61. Ariel Deutscher

    Saudi Arabia is one of the most conservative countries in the world today. I dare to claim that 99.9 % of the Muslims in Europe and North America are more liberal than the leadership of the Wahhabite kingdom. This however has not prevented the indeed very close co-operation between Saudi Arabia and the west. This shows how fruitful co-operation is possible even with the hardliners if the mutual will is there.

    As for the 9/11 attacks, nothing indicates that they would have been more than a one-off strike. The organisation behind it had a structure built for this one mission only. That organisation simply no longer exists, but it makes a good invisible bogeyman threat that various governments can use as an excuse when declaring wars or introducing new laws and surveillance technologies that would have been entirely unthinkable ten years ago.

    Unfortunately when the people are afraid they are more willing to give away their liberty for security, we have witnessed many enough times how eventually that progress will leave them without either.

  62. Tony Garcia

    Ariel, you don’t mind if you call you Ariel do you?

    First, I can’t really say how happy I’m that you came to this blog, your inputs has taken this discussion to a whole new level, I do hope you have more spare time to keep writing. Kudos apart…

    Interesting you kept talking about SA, but strategically left untouched the point I made. The difference between the contribution the Jewish community is making to the US versus the contribution the Islamic community is making. But this is not the best part, let talk about what matters.

    So, you’re saying that Al-Qaida doesn’t really exits, that CIA, Home-Land Security, US and British military, MI6, Mossad, etc, they are all hutting ghosts. This is all a plan created by a secret syndicate operating at the highest levels of power within the government and carried out by those agencies to bring about a totalitarian police state to slave the human race, or as known “The New World Order”.

    Fascinating…

    Please don’t stop now, who do you think is behind this? Free-masons? Illuminati? The hybrid human-reptile shape-shifting Royal Family?

  63. Tony Garcia

    My point was simple but you just won’t touch it…

    The difference between the contribution the Jewish/Christian community is making to the US/Europe versus the contribution the Islamic community is making.

    We did build cathedrals and churches, but how many hospitals we also built? Muslims did build mosques, how many hospitals did they build?

    “What are you afraid of?”

    Am I? In this discussion, my friend, I’m very comfortable indeed.

  64. Ariel Deutscher

    Al-Qaida does not exist. Full stop. It’s a media phenomenon of unclear origin that is both feeding itself and being actively fed by the authorities and media.

    What has existed are small ad hoc groups of radicals that are ready to plan and execute one-off attacks independently. One example of this were the radicals of the extremist Jerusalem Mosque of Hamburg that masterminded the 9/11 events. However much more often the radical activity consists of recruiting new Jihadists to join the Holy War in Central Asia or other locations. The front line for the Jihadists is not in Europe but in Afghanistan, Iraq or Somalia.

    For the authorities in Europe it is a quiet fight against single individuals such as the recruiters in radical mosques. It requires long-term infiltration and the only news it can provide are how this or that radical preacher was arrested or deported. This is obviously not sexy enough to excite the masses, for them it would never be enough to justify the war and the continuing military presence in Afghanistan for example.

    The justification comes directly from the war propaganda; the weapons of mass destruction, al-Qaida, the evil deeds of Taliban. It does not matter if it’s true or not, it just has to be exciting enough. This is nothing new, the same applies to almost any conflict of the past. And also then it brought persecution along, the United States during the Red Scare could be a good example.

  65. Tony Garcia

    Dear Enrique, how luck we are. Now we have a conspiracy theorist among us to tell us the “truth”. Is that great or what?

    Anyway, as you can see, your apocalyptic prophecies that if we don’t allow in thousands of Muslims that will be the end of Finland as we known it, unfortunately, is not quite right. Many Muslims are unemployed, hanging on the dole, rioting on the streets and send part of our tax money to support terrorists groups abroad. Those who do have some money don’t invent it in something for the common good, they use it only to spread their religion.

    Yes we do need immigrants, yes do need to accept different groups, but NO, Muslims are not one of them…

  66. xyz

    Those who do have some money don’t invent it in something for the common good, they use it only to spread their religion.
    -How many of them spend their money only on religion? Do you have some figure or how do you know this so well?

    Yes we do need immigrants, yes do need to accept different groups, but NO, Muslims are not one of them…
    -How would you feel if some people would say the same about you?

  67. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony it also has been shown that more Muslims are on welfare than in employment, FACT. But they are still not a burden on Finland in Enrique’s mind because they ‘use services that contribute to the economy.’ So buying milk or bread or taking a bus is contributing overall even when you are taking a lot more in Euros monthly on welfare. Next thing Enrique will justify immigrant criminals because they keep the police or prison guards busy and therefore keeping them in employment so their criminal ‘services’ are beneficial.

  68. Tony Garcia

    “Next thing Enrique will justify immigrant criminals because they keep the police or prison guards busy and therefore keeping them in employment so their criminal ‘services’ are beneficial.”

    LOL… Cheers mate, that one was great.

  69. Ariel Deutscher

    “Yes we do need immigrants, yes do need to accept different groups, but NO, Muslims are not one of them…
    -How would you feel if some people would say the same about you?”

    I would be inclined to believe that Mr. Garcia is one of those people who consider their own values absolute and those that do not fit their own absolutely false. Those who they can’t agree with they want to get rid of.

    Often this hatred of otherness can reach so extreme proportions that for them it’s enough that someone belongs to a certain group of people. Even the most liberal and free-thinking Muslim or Jew is to be opposed and to get rid of.

    • Enrique

      –Even the most liberal and free-thinking Muslim or Jew is to be opposed and to get rid of.

      Isn’t it incredible how ALL are “bad?”

  70. xyz

    If there is too much self-centered attitude, then fear, doubt and suspicion come and as a result our inner door closes. Then it is very difficult to communicate with others.

    With a basic understanding of all humans as brothers and sisters, we can appreciate the usefulness of different systems and ideologies that can accommodate different individuals and groups with different cultural heritages, having different dispositions and tastes. Each person has the right to choose whatever is most suitable, on the basis of a deep understanding of all others as brothers and sisters.

    Dalai Lama

  71. Tiwaz

    Enrique
    -“17% of the Finnish population was over 65 years old in 2007. In order to maintain the present age structure you would have to bring 2 million people by 2040. By then, over 30% of the population will be over 65. Who is going to pay taxes to maintain our welfare system? But go ahead and cover your eyes and leave the future of Finland to chance.”

    How are worthless immigrants who have no skills to do anything useful going to contribute to our society?

    I have repeatedly said that there is no problem with immigrant who adjusts to nation and has SKILLS OF USE. But what does “no-speak” and “no-edjumacation”-immigrant do to our theoretical population problem?

    As for age structure. Death takes it’s toll at ever increasing rate at the elderly.
    Only idiot would want to fix temporary problem with solution bringing permanent problems. (German “gastarbaiters” who are problem today while problem they were imported to fill has long disappeared with ever increasing level of unemployment)

    Surakka:
    -“I have no comments about multiculturalism because I am still not convinced that our foreign policy makers will go that far. Thus far, it’s all about “getting along” not about “melting together”. There’s a big difference.”

    Getting along is impossible as long as there is cultural conflict. Cultural conflict by nature is not “getting along”. Cultural conflict is most naturally solved through having one party of conflict yield their cultural norms which are in conflict.

    Our politicians have been all too unwilling to take the necessary steps to secure future of Finnish society by demanding integration from immigrants, instead opting the easy route of demanding appeasement from natives.

    -“Re: your above “wise words quote”.. Another proverb states “keep your friends close but your enemies closer”. I would replace the word enemy in that proverb to something else like “unknown person/culture”. In order to keep those close to us we can’t be pissing people off to the point of defensiveness.”

    Or we could, you know, tell them it’s this way or the highway. If they are unhappy with the way Finland is, while Finns are happy with it… We have conflict of interest. Immigrants, by nature of being immigrants, are ones who should be told to suck it up or pack it up.

    As for Dalai Lama, is it surprising that guy who is living off the charity of others preaches how he and his ways should be tolerated? Hmm?

    Also notice that old Dal is not saying that you are not responsible for your choices.
    If immigrant in Finland chooses not to integrate, not to learn language… They are free to do so.

    But they better not expect to be treated as if they do act properly and speak Finnish.

    • Enrique

      –How are worthless immigrants who have no skills to do anything useful going to contribute to our society?

      How are worthless Finns going to contribute to society?

  72. Tiwaz

    -“How are worthless Finns going to contribute to society?”

    Do you have solution how we can prevent them from immigrating to our society?

    If not, STFU.
    If you do, I am listening.

    Could you stop presenting the idiotic concept “Because some Finns are failures we must import more failures just because” all the time?

    Yes, some Finns are failures just like great deal of our immigrants. So?

    Do they become less failures if we import MORE welfare leeches to suck up on already limited resources?

    Do you ever think through your argument?

    I will give you an analogy…

    Welfare are the loadbearing structures of the house.
    Leeches are snow on top of the roof.
    Loadbearing structures are close to their maximum weight tolerance.

    Do you think adding MORE snow to the roof is going to help the situation or make it worse?

    • Enrique

      –Could you stop presenting the idiotic concept “Because some Finns are failures we must import more failures just because” all the time?

      There is no country where 100% are fully employed or are not marginalized from society. There will always be a small minority that don’t adapt/are unemployed/etc.

  73. xyz

    Yes, some Finns are failures just like great deal of our immigrants.
    -Maybe it’s not solely the immigrants fault if according to you a great deal of immigrants are failures?

  74. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘How are worthless Finns going to contribute to society?’

    Two wrongs don’t make a right. In every country there will be bums who are useless to society but that shouldn’t be used as an excuse for failing immigrants. There are also criminals in every country, does that mean it’s ok for myself to become one too? I believe it’s morally worse to claim welfare from a country that your not from than from your own country.

  75. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘How can you make sure that immigrants are not “failing”?’

    Easy don’t allow them in the country in the first place. If they are not in Finland it’s impossible for them to fail in Finland. Only allow those immigrants from developing countries who have the skills and education to contribute to society, preferably having already secured a job before arriving.

    • Enrique

      I think the assumption that all immigrants are trying to get on welfare is not true. In fact, that kind of a statement is an insult because people don’t travel thousands of kilometers to a new homeland just to live off social welfare but to make something out of themselves. Can you imagine what a failure you would be in the eyes of the folks back home? But probably in Klay’s and Tony’s eyes immigrants are a bunch of leeches sucking society dry. This shows how little they know about immigrants and about themselves if they are immigrants or sons of immigrants.

  76. Tiwaz

    -“Maybe it’s not solely the immigrants fault if according to you a great deal of immigrants are failures?”

    It is mainly their fault. They cannot expect to be given preferential treatment.

    In Finland, this means you have to have…

    1) Valid credentials
    2) Fluent skill in local language (in most positions)
    3) Fluent ability to interact in local cultural environment.

    Which one of these is not 100% up to immigrant?

    Nobody can learn useful skills on behalf of an immigrant, they must do it all by themselves.

    Could there be more study opportunities for immigrants? Perhaps, but only once existing ones are topped up with immigrants working their ass off on those courses.

    What is the point of running another 200 “Finnish for immigrants”-courses if those attending do half arsed job in learning?

    -“There is no country where 100% are fully employed or are not marginalized from society. There will always be a small minority that don’t adapt/are unemployed/etc.”

    So Enrique, how does importing more people to that group help our society to prosper?

  77. xyz

    What is the point of running another 200 “Finnish for immigrants”-courses if those attending do half arsed job in learning?

    Could be different reasons:
    -Courses are bad
    -No motivation to learn the language since it does not really increase the chances to get a job
    -Some may not be that good in learning languages quickly

    And by the way would you be able to speak fluent Japanese in 1 year if you have never studied this language before??

    So Enrique, how does importing more people to that group help our society to prosper?
    http://www.eva.fi/puheenvuorot/the-first-day-in-a-finnish-office/2881/

  78. Tiwaz

    -“-Courses are bad”
    Suggest better form for them instead of demanding appeasement then. Immigrant failure.

    “-No motivation to learn the language since it does not really increase the chances to get a job”

    Proven false by statistics. Learning culture and language radically improves persons chances for employment. (article in Aamulehti some time ago)

    Of course, if you are lazy and stupid immigrant who has zero useful skills, you are out of luck. But that is not OUR fault is it?

    “-Some may not be that good in learning languages quickly”

    Too bad. Work harder. Again, jobs are given for having the rights skills, not out of charity.
    It is duty of IMMIGRANT to make themselves employable.

    And by the way would you be able to speak fluent Japanese in 1 year if you have never studied this language before??”

    -“http://www.eva.fi/puheenvuorot/the-first-day-in-a-finnish-office/2881/”

    It did not offer proof that importing people who cannot do a job would somehow benefit us.

    It was also again filled with traditional foreigner arrogance.

    HE expects that FINNS must appease his foreign ass by learning to do idle chitchat because that is what HE expects.

    He fails to respect FINNISH culture and it’s concensus that small talk is not necessary.

    Who is to blame? Finland for being Finnish or idiot for not grasping that Finland is not hubbabubbaland?
    What kind of idiot goes into foreign country and neglegts to study the local culture beforehand? (Google has been invented already)

    Read the article and what do you see, yet more of anti-Finnish attitude. When given work tour, when HE failed to grasp cultural gap it was not his fault (he as minority and recent arrival) no, he immediately declared it fault of Finnish culture that he, product of different culture, did not feel at home in Finnish society.

    Let’s pretend for a moment that Finland DOES need immigrants for huge success. If price of that is that our own culture must be banished from our native land, I prefer the lack of success.

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