The far right strikes at immigrants in Finland and elsewhere

by , under All categories, Enrique

There is an interesting (long) article in a recent issue of Time that writes about the rise of the far-right in Europe. One of the favorite shooting grounds of these parties are immigrants in general and Muslims in particular.

Parties such as the BNP (British National Party) of Great Britain won two seats in the European Parliament in June as did in the Netherlands Geert Wilders´Partij voor de Vrijheid (Party for Freedom, PVV) grab second place in the Euro poll.

The article continues: “Around Europe a ragbag of extremist parties, as varied as the countries that produced them yet united by a vehement nationalism that singles out minority groups as a growing threat, scored in Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Romania and Slovakia. Confronted with sliding economies and disappearing jobs, voters kicked the mainstream parties they held most responsible.”

Even though the article only mentions Finland once, we know that the True Finns (Perussuomalaiset/9.79% of the votes, a +9.25% gain) were the biggest winners of the Euro Parliament elections, with the Center (19.03%/-4.34%) and Social Democrats (17.54%/-3.72%) taking a beating.

One of the interesting points in the article is that these far-right parties have remade themselves. Like in Finland, some do not admit openly that they are in the “extreme right” nor that they are racist as True Finn President Timo Soini has said repeatedly.

The article continues: “Now outfits such as the BNP are learning from past mistakes: they’re slicker, and combine old-fashioned grassroots activism with Internet campaign techniques borrowed from the Obama playbook. They’re also well placed to exploit the disillusionment with traditional politics that has seen voter turnouts in European and national elections plummet, and membership of big parties dwindle.”

Even though it is always easy and sexier to be in the opposition, I wonder what these parties would do if they held a majority in the legislature and government?

How much of our civil lberties would they shelve in order to promote their political agendas?

Would all hell break loose?

  1. DeTant Blomhat

    I don’t know where The Time invented this but lets do a little analysis on political parties.

    “Far right” and “extremist” do not go hand in hand as there can be moderate or extremist parties through the spectrum. The Greens in some countries can be said to be “extremist” in their agenda let alone the various socialist and communist parties.

    If we do the traditional division from the point of view of economical issues, BNP is a vanilla far-right party with conservative views. PVV then is rooting for economic liberalism, while the True Finns are actually quite socialist in some of their economical agenda.

    Although its true all these parties have a nationalist agenda and they are eurosceptics if not anti-eu; so are a lot of other parties in the EU parliament.

    The only thing that broke loose is the logic.

    “Even though it is always easy and sexier to be in the opposition, I wonder what these parties would do if they held a majority in the legislature and government?”

    A good question. Look at the Greens how they got housetrained and sit in the government nuclear power or no.

    • Enrique

      –“Far right” and “extremist” do not go hand in hand as there can be moderate or extremist parties through the spectrum. The Greens in some countries can be said to be “extremist” in their agenda let alone the various socialist and communist parties.

      DeTant, I guess the whole issue revolves around the word “mainstream” or we use “middle-of-the-road” as a benchmark. However, with the collapse of the former Soviet Union, it has been harder to figure out “far right” and/or “far left.” In a classical definition of “conservative” it means wants little change or to keep things as they are. The more you more towards the left or liberal territory (liberal in Latin America means that you support economic liberalism/neoliberalism) the more you want change. Some have called the BNP and the likes “hate parties.” So, if the BNP and others like them want to return a country back to where it was, it is a good example of “right wing” or “far right” since this, in my opinion is a pretty radical/extreme. But yes, we can debate about the terms and you have a good point.

      Any minority party that wants to radically change the system is extremist. But what happens if the political system is moribund and dead? Are those parties that are breathing life into the political system “radical?” A good case in point is Hugo Chavez of Venezuela.

  2. Tony Garcia

    “One of the favorite shooting grounds of these parties are immigrants in general and Muslims in particular.”

    Yep and once all they say is totally “fabricated” and pure “lie” I wonder how they can get away with it…

    • Enrique

      –Yep and once all they say is totally “fabricated” and pure “lie” I wonder how they can get away with it…

      Because some pick on weaker people to score opportunistically political brownie points. Europe still has a lot to learn about interethnic relations. Looking at our history, most of Europe (if not all of the continent) has a tough time absorbing immigrants. Nationalism is still a big problem. Some distinguish between the word “patriotism” and “nationalism.” The former is a sense of community while the latter is based on “we are better than you.”

  3. Tony Garcia

    “How much of our civil lberties would they shelve in order to promote their political agendas?”

    Amigo Enrique, are sure that only the far-right would shelve our liberties? Can’t you think about some other groups?

    • Enrique

      –Amigo Enrique, are sure that only the far-right would shelve our liberties? Can’t you think about some other groups?

      Any one that wants to change our present democracy like, formerly, the communists.

  4. DeTant Blomhat

    Exactly. These parties are labelled “extremist” because the current parties in power are afraid of loosing their status quo. But theres been in Finland like the Christians who are a right-wing-conservative “home religion fatherland” types. Nobodys been yelling “extremist” to them even they’re a “religious” party? Remember when Toimi Kankaanniemi – the temperance guy – was in charge of the alcohol policy? Wasn’t that a bit… extreme?

    What worries me more are the “thugs in the streets” and really, who do you see on the streets? Is it brownshirts marching? No, its these “antifascists” and “autonomes” that join up any kind of demonstration to riot. So why isn’t anybody concerned about this “extremism”?

    I think if these “far right” parties would come in power, they would maintain the civil liberties as it seems the current government is doing its best to take them away. All to combat “extremism” when they’re afraid they loose their heavenly mandate. Imagine how easy it would have been in the world before internet to put the election funding scandal under the carpet?

    • Enrique

      –So you are meaning immigrants?

      How are immigrants making our democratic system autocratic?

  5. Tiwaz

    Enrique, get used to this.

    I have told this to you for ages. Immigrant failure to assimilate to host society will lead to this. Mainstream politics is going to shift towards immigrant-critical political parties because natives, who are still majority in basically all EU nations for example, are getting sick and tired of immigrant caused trouble and immigrant pampering.

    All this could have been fixed ages ago without these “extreme” parties getting into power. But those parties in power tried to be “progressive” and kept digging their own grave.

    Patriotism/nationalism (whatever you want to call it) is getting it’s head up again. People want to feel at home in their native land. That means immigrants can’t have their way.

    What you call “nationalism” is indeed feeling of community, thus patriotism. And that community is native community, the huge majority. And they find their community being eroded and attacked by immigrants demanding appeasement.

    Enrique, remember that we natives have rights too. And we are majority. And democracy is at heart about what majority wants. As for what we want? We want our home to remain our home.

    Democracy is not about minorities overruling majority.

    • Enrique

      –Mainstream politics is going to shift towards immigrant-critical political parties because natives, who are still majority in basically all EU nations for example, are getting sick and tired of immigrant caused trouble and immigrant pampering.

      It might happen but you cannot base your whole political agenda on hatred of others and nationalism. Certainly you can take such a path but it will lead towards political ruin. There are other more pressing issues in society.

      –Patriotism/nationalism (whatever you want to call it) is getting it’s head up again.

      Some think that the two are the same thing. Others claim that there is a difference: Patriotism is a sense of community while nationalism is cultural hot air that aims to put people in different groups as in a Totem pole.

      –Enrique, remember that we natives have rights too.

      Everyone has rights in society. It is funny that while we speak of group rights it does not happen on an individual level. Do you feel that you don’t have enough rights? This is an odd statement.

  6. Tony Garcia

    Hola Enrique,

    You say…

    “Any one that wants to change our present democracy like, formerly, the communists.”

    Very well, let’s try to see what could lead us to this end.

    Some time ago you said…

    “But this is a different story in the EU because there are laws that protect minorities. Thanks to these laws, we do not have segregated toilets and schools in Finland.”

    So do still agree with this? Do you still think that segregation is a poison to our society?

    Very well, what is you r opinion about this?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6034998/Why-must-we-bow-to-the-intolerant-ways-of-Islam.html

    “When Jim Fitzpatrick MP and his wife decided to leave a Muslim wedding party after they discovered it was segregated by sex, he did not anticipate the controversy his decision would generate.”

    “Islamic law does not, of course, accept that men and women have equal rights. Sharia courts in Britain have already judged that a man may have up to four wives at any one time; that a wife has no property rights in the event of divorce; that a woman may not leave her home without her husband’s consent; and that a woman cannot marry without the presence and permission of a male guardian.
    In 2004, in response to pressure from some of its Muslim leaders, the Canadian province of Ontario planned to impose legally binding arbitration on Muslims according to sharia. The most vigorous protests came from Muslim women, who insisted that the main reason they had emigrated to Canada was to get away from it.”

    Please pay attention on who is against Sharia in Canada…

    And about this?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6024629/Segregation-common-in-Islam.html

    “Women are allowed in mosques but there are always separate rooms in which they pray.”

    Do you see any difference between this segregation and the toilet one?

    Do you think these practices could, by any chance, change our present democracy or diminish our values? Or it should be tolerated in name of cultural sensitivity?

    • Enrique

      –So do still agree with this? Do you still think that segregation is a poison to our society?

      I believe that people in our liberal democratic society have choices, which are their right. Segregation/exclusion is one of the biggest problems in our society. It basically means that these people are not regulated and live outside our society. If we are social beings, certainly we must aim to create a society where, at least, the majority take part in it. In my opinion, matters such as discrimination and unequal opportunities are at the heart of the problem. If you segregate a group with hatred and suspicion, you are effectively shooting yourself in the leg. That person will not be part of our mainstream multicultural society — hence we all lose.

      What is the aim of the Daily Telegraph article? To stress how different our societies are? What is the news value instead of inciting nationalist/cultural sentiment against a particular group? What do we do if another group does not hold the same values as us? What about if that group is the majority in another country?

      These are all difficult questions but they won’t be solved by imposing our values on them. That would be a mistake. A multicultural society offers choices just like a market place. People can choose what suits them culturally. Moreover, it would be wrong to think that the second generation immigrants are a rubber stamp of their parents’ culture.

  7. intternetnetsi

    http://www.nisnews.nl/public/180809_2.htm

    “Hennie Metsemakers was suspended by the school a year and a half ago because she spoke of religions other than Islam in the lessons. “I had drawn a timeline and shown the most important events of a number of beliefs on it.” Not only was that forbidden, but she was also ordered to teach the children that Christianity would be abolished, she told Het Parool newspaper.”

    “According to Metsemakers, the school wants to teach children that they are not allowed to be friends with non-believers. “Only Muslims can after all be good people.””

  8. Tiwaz

    -“It might happen but you cannot base your whole political agenda on hatred of others and nationalism. Certainly you can take such a path but it will lead towards political ruin. There are other more pressing issues in society.”

    Of course that is one trick pony. But reality is that it will work if no other party dares to take that hot potato and do something about it.

    How much votes you think Timo Soini would have gained for his party if KOK and Kesk had balls to say that this pussyfooting with immigrants has gone long enough and not produced any decent results?

    -“Some think that the two are the same thing. Others claim that there is a difference: Patriotism is a sense of community while nationalism is cultural hot air that aims to put people in different groups as in a Totem pole.”

    They are one and same thing. Loving your nation and what it represents.

    There is no cultural “hot air”. If cultures were all alike, why there are so many different cultures? It is fallacy of multiculturalists that cultures are just A-OK to live side by side without one having to compromise.

    It has never taken place anywhere in history.

    You yourself admit that there is cultural relativism, that for Afgans or whatever it is not pedophilia to marry 11 year old girl to 40 year old man.

    This is Finland, in our culture (and society and nation) it is disgusting, barbaric and pedophilia. It is against everything we today hold dear.

    There can be no peaceful co-existence in Finland with such culture until they toss away such barbaric (in Finnish cultural context) traditions from their culture. If they insist on keeping up this pedophilia, they should never leave their homeland.

    Culture is not hot air, it is our very identity.

    -“Everyone has rights in society. It is funny that while we speak of group rights it does not happen on an individual level. Do you feel that you don’t have enough rights? This is an odd statement.”

    I have now, but as immigrants keep pushing for their cultural norms and their rights to overrule mine, how much rights I will have in future, or my children will have in their future, if immigrant issue is not dealt with?

    Of course, I find it unlikely that such scenario could ever come to be. If politicians keep failing to sort out immigrant problems, then there will be one day when people do that. And it will not be pleasant for immigrants.

    But I do not want that either, because there will be great deal of destruction going on during that cleansing. And I prefer to leave my children safe, wealthy and stable nation.

  9. Tiwaz

    -“I believe that people in our liberal democratic society have choices, which are their right. Segregation/exclusion is one of the biggest problems in our society. It basically means that these people are not regulated and live outside our society. If we are social beings, certainly we must aim to create a society where, at least, the majority take part in it. In my opinion, matters such as discrimination and unequal opportunities are at the heart of the problem. If you segregate a group with hatred and suspicion, you are effectively shooting yourself in the leg. That person will not be part of our mainstream multicultural society — hence we all lose.”

    But how do you integrate/assimilate group which insists on being segregated?

    It is not FINNS who force immigrants to live in their own limited cliques, they do it themselves.

    It is not FINNS who force the immigrants to act in ways which are even repulsive to Finns. It is immigrants who do it themselves.

    There is no mainstream multicultural culture. Because there is no substance in multiculturalism. It lacks the communal aspect which I get to in next part. Without that, it is just collection of little cliques which want nothing to do with one another.

    It is not modern society, it is ancient tribal… Something. It is step backwards in progress for centuries.

    -“These are all difficult questions but they won’t be solved by imposing our values on them. That would be a mistake. A multicultural society offers choices just like a market place. People can choose what suits them culturally. Moreover, it would be wrong to think that the second generation immigrants are a rubber stamp of their parents’ culture.”

    Problem is that IT DOES NOT WORK.

    Functional society requires unity which cannot be provided by your multicultural dream. Functioning society is community, and community requires something in common between it’s members. Mere citizenship is not enough. Having Finnish passport does not make you part of Finnish community if that is only thing you share with Finns. Even sharing few things with Finns is not enough. Community requires very thorough feeling of similarity, there will be differences but those are far smaller and fewer than common nominators. But it is not so with someone who comes from totally different culture and refuses to let go of it.

    Multicultural society is impossible to work. Cultures will always have values and ways which are in conflict with one another. Your solution is essentially demand that native population must yield on their cultural norms and give up THEIR culture to appease immigrants.

    Can you see how ludicrous such requirement is? We are natives, this is our HOME. Home of our ancestors. By what right do foreigners come to our home and demand us to do things the way that pleases THEM?

    Second generation immigrants are not rubber stamp of their parents, they are in a sense mongrels who do not have connection anywhere. Their parents have imposed their own norms and ways to them in childhood but those children also see that rest of society do not follow these norms.

    What could such children do? They become lost.It is fault of their parents, who refuse to let go of their past, who are to blame. Because we will NOT change Finland to Somalia for Somalis, we do NOT change Finland to Afganistan for Afghans, we do NOT change Finland to Guatemala for Guatemalans. This is Finland, learn to live in it.

    • Enrique

      –pat condell says exactly how i feel

      Did you know he was a stand-up comic? He must like the publicity and the people who enjoy his brand of hatred.

    • Enrique

      –Yes i did and thats not hatred, thats common sense.
      He has gift of speak and words that i dont have.

      Why? Because he can express eloquently his hatred?

    • Enrique

      –and you may want to stop ad hominem shit and tell what in his speak is wrong or lie.

      His way of provocation and hatred. See how he speaks: “multirucltural pimps,” “liars” “fascist religion” etc… The most incredible thing is that the “burqa justifies rape.” Give me a break! If you follow this person, I feel sorry for you.

  10. intternetnetsi

    How much have you followed what muslim themself say? Havent you heard about “noncovered meat and cat” when talking about rapes?
    You clearly dont follow what is happening aroung.

    Muslim is faschist intolerant total system what doesnt allow anything haram. Thast a fact.

  11. intternetnetsi

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html

    “In the religious address on adultery to about 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, Sheik Hilali said: “If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it … whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

    “The uncovered meat is the problem.”

    The sheik then said: “If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred.”

    He said women were “weapons” used by “Satan” to control men.”

    • Enrique

      –He said women were “weapons” used by “Satan” to control men.”

      Hannu, I think you are over streatching the point. I remember in the Catholic religion similar nonsense. We don´t have to go too back in time to uncover ludicrous things told by different religions.

  12. Tiwaz

    -“Hannu, I think you are over streatching the point. I remember in the Catholic religion similar nonsense. We don´t have to go too back in time to uncover ludicrous things told by different religions.”

    So?

    Does that justify Islamic barbarism? “Oh, Catholics did it too at one point.”

    Remember, past tense. For Muslims, it is present.
    And they try to force it to our societies which have advanced beyond those barbaric ways.

    • Enrique

      Tiwaz, you cannot take a whole religion like the Muslim and say that they are all “barbarians.” If you have any education, you know that that type of conclusion is flawed. There are all types in every culture.

  13. Tony Garcia

    Of course Pat is a racist. He dares to say the truth about multiculturalism and Islam.

    He’s also a xenophobic, islamophobic, etc. What else he could be? Just the usual.

    Have you guys tried “Welcome to Saudi Britain”? I recommend it’s full of “hatred” alright…

  14. Tony Garcia

    “So, what could replace it (Multiculturalism)?”

    How about my example? And others well adapted, integrated, law abiding, immigrants?

    Go to Finland and live in Finland not somewhere else. Respect its people and culture and don’t try to change or impose anything. Don’t ask special treatments. Don’t play the race card whenever something goes wrong.

    It works… thrust me…

    • Enrique

      –How about my example? And others well adapted, integrated, law abiding, immigrants?

      Do you believe that the majority of immigrants are not adapted, integrated and law abiding? You are a good example, Tony. However, you are a professional and have integrated yourself through work. Not everyone is like you or me. Society must also have the mechanisms and take into consideration others who are different and possibly not as fortunate.

  15. Tony Garcia

    “Stories like these attempt to awaken anger and hatred”

    So again dismiss the news, label it as racist and carry on like nothing has happened, hoping that it’ll just go away by itself.

    For me that just show, again, that the majority of asylum seekers are in fact economic migrants, who lie just about everything they can to justify their “need”.

    “Hannu, the 50,000 euro sum is an unsubstantiated exaggeration.”

    Had the Somali’s claim of “discrimination” needed to be substantiated? Or was just accepted?

    “I won’t believe it until I actually see something more substantial.”

    How did the Somalis substantiated they claims to you? Were their words just enough?

    “As any critical journalist, I would question the information.”

    Did you?

  16. Tony Garcia

    “What is the aim of the Daily Telegraph article?”

    There you go again…

    “What is the news value…”

    To inform to people, but in an multicultural society anything against minorities is considerate hatred. The truth in particularly…

    It’s very difficult for someone to defend multiculturalism without exercise double standards.

    “be solved by imposing our values on them”

    I understood that discrimination was not a case of values but law. Am I wrong? So you are just taking the usual multicultural approach of “let them be”, just like the German judge who told the woman beaten by the husband that this is from their culture, she should accept it.

    “A multicultural society offers choices just like a market place.”

    Really? That’s nice…

    So if I change the way our church works and reserve some seats on the back for blacks only, will this choice be accepted or will I be charged for discrimination?

    “it would be wrong to think that the second generation immigrants are a rubber stamp of their parents’ culture.”

    Nop they are worse, just look at Malmo, Paris, and Manchester, who is rioting? Who is burning the cars? Who is raping the women? Swedish/French/British born minorities.

    • Enrique

      –“What is the news value…”

      Is there news value in bashing another culture?

      –It’s very difficult for someone to defend multiculturalism without exercise double standards.

      As I have mentioned to you, Tony, multiculturalism is for me the best way for minorities to be protected in a society. It does not mean because we pass a few laws that, presto, we are now a perfect society. We still have a long way to go in this respect. However, imposing a culture and its norms on a minority is not the answer. It does not work. There are countless examples of how disatrous such a policy has been.
      So, in the meantime, if you cannot give me a model that works– or aims to achieve some sort of harmony/equality — I will stick to multiculturalism. As you know, multiculturalism is not a magic cure. It is a valid option.

  17. Tony Garcia

    “We don´t have to go too back in time to uncover ludicrous things told by different religions.”

    Sorry Enrique but you are the one going back in time bring the Catholics to this matter . The Imam said this last year.

    And he is not the only one. Let have a look what they are saying in Britain.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344409,00.html

    “A report posted on Islam Watch, a site run by Muslims who oppose intolerant teachings and hatred for unbelievers, exposes a prominent Islamic cleric and lawyer who support extreme punishment for non-Muslims — including killing and rape.”

    And from BBC

    Enrique open your eyes my friend…

    • Enrique

      Tony, I am certain that I can do a search and find something outrageous being said at this moment. To single out one group and give the picture that all other religions are “sane and level headed” is stretching the matter.

    • Enrique

      Amigo Tony, as you know I do not regard Fox News to be an obective news agency. It is very opinionated and does what I wrote about a week ago: editorializes blatently in its stories. Its heyday was in the Bush period.
      The BBC interview is more level-headed.

  18. Tony Garcia

    “I do not regard Fox News to be an obective news agency”

    No need to comment on that.

    “Tony, I am certain that I can do a search and find something outrageous being said at this moment. To single out one group and give the picture that all other religions are “sane and level headed” is stretching the matter.”

    I don’t know exactly with of my comments you are referring but if it’s from Choudary’s. Tell me how much people you think a single scumbag like this one can gather around him? And how many single scumbags are there gathering followers?

    Once you advised me to check the times, there you go…

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2402973.ece

    “Hardline takeover of British mosques“

    “Almost half of Britain’s mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values and has called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah, an investigation by The Times has found.”

    “Riyadh ul Haq, who supports armed jihad and preaches contempt for Jews, Christians and Hindus, is in line to become the spiritual leader of the Deobandi sect in Britain. The ultra-conservative movement, which gave birth to the Taleban in Afghanistan, now runs more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques, according to a police report seen by The Times.”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5792445.ece

    “Of the 27 or so Muslim seminaries or dar ul uloom in Britain, 25 come from the austere, Deobandi tradition – the preferred school of the Taleban. So while British soldiers risk their lives in Afghanistan, in British Muslim seminaries we allow the teaching of intolerance, unequal treatment of women, religious rigidity, the banning of music and theatre, and an end to free mixing of the sexes.”

    “Soon, they will move into mosques as English-speaking imams, without any understanding of British values of liberty, tolerance and pluralism.”

  19. Tony Garcia

    “Do you believe that the majority of immigrants are not adapted, integrated and law abiding?”

    Of course not, many are, wasn’t I clear enough when I wrote “And others…”?

    When in Finland I have met many good immigrants, actually a lot. Some worked with me, some were my neighbours, and so on.

    “Tony. However, you are a professional and have integrated yourself through work.”

    Wrong completely wrong. Work is just part of it, and even not a big one. I and others have succeeded due our attitude. With the right attitude you earn your place in society and most important respect. It’s a nice felling indeed. I’ll quote myself again…

    “Go to Finland and live in Finland not somewhere else. Respect its people and culture and don’t try to change or impose anything. Don’t ask special treatments. Don’t play the race card whenever something goes wrong.”

    This model works far better than imposing multiculturalism through the Finns thought. Pissing them off and showing that they will take it no matter what, they like it or not. The right attitude makes the whole difference, believe me.

    I have 2 examples.

    First: I know about 4 Brazilians girls who live in Finland married with Finns. All very happy (beside the weather of course), well integrated and adapted(beside the weather of course). None of them works. 3 taking care of children 1 just lazy.

    So no work + good attitude = success.

    Second: The Muslim who worked with us. He has education, and a good job and yet disrespected all his workmates trying to impose his “rights” at the same time denying ours. Even with education and work his wrong attitude made him be hated by everyone, Finns and foreigners alike.

    Work + bad attitude = failure.

    It’s that simple…

  20. Enrique

    –I have 2 examples.

    Tony, just a curiosity: how would you classify the two examples that you mentioned. Are they invisible or visible immigrants? Are you a invisible immigrant. By invisible, I mean a person who does not look very different from Finns.

  21. Tony Garcia

    Enrique first let me tell you that I misunderstood when you used the term invisible. I tough it was about integration, adaptation and living in the main culture without trying to change it, not physically invisible.

    In that way, all of us 6 are very visible.

    The muslin had black hair and eyes but not too dark skin, not beard and normal western clouts.

    One girl and I very Italian. Brown eyes and hair, south European kind of face. Anyone can tell we are not Finns from a mile.

    2 girls Europeans mixed with something else. Black hair and eyes and dark skin.

    1 girl is a mulata (I’m not sure how to translate it correctly to English). Black hair and eyes very dark skin and a bottom size of Colombia .

    Everything has some influence in the way you are accepted in there, I’m nor denying it. Non society is perfect, that includes the Finnish. However I know for experience that your attitude in there will overcome everything else. Worked for me, worked for them and for so many.

    In my time in Finland I met some many foreigners, Americans, Spanish, Italians, Portuguese, Latinos, etc. All somehow visible, but all share 2 things in common.

    First: Moved to Finland and accepted they were in Finland not somewhere else, therefore played the game by Finnish norms, customs and rules.

    Second: succeeded as immigrants and are happy in there.

    I wonder if you haven’t met any visible immigrant that succeed in there. If you have you should ask yourself why some visible succeeded and why some didn’t. If all share the same visibility factor it should be something else than. Shouldn’t it?

  22. Tiwaz

    Enrique:

    I can say Muslims by and large are barbarians and it is true. Islamic religion is concentrated largely in Africa and Middle East. Both regions of absolute barbarism.

    And they are exporting it outside.

    There are, of course, communities of different kind of Islamic population, for example Tatars in Finland or some Asian regions where Muslims are either large majority or majority outright.

    But they represent the minority. Majority of Muslims in modern world identify with barbaric practices of Middle East and want to import those practices to countries where they move.

    And multiculturalism gives them tools for it, by saying that we must understand them and accept their ways in OUR home.

    • Enrique

      –I can say Muslims by and large are barbarians and it is true. Islamic religion is concentrated largely in Africa and Middle East. Both regions of absolute barbarism.Majority of Muslims in modern world identify with barbaric practices of Middle East and want to import those practices to countries where they move.

      Tiwaz, by making such an affirmation you openly declare war on these groups. There is no chance of every finding a middle ground to build a relationship. The term “barbarian” was, I suspect, used when “white barbarians” colonized and dominated “less civilized” people in other continents.

  23. Tiwaz

    Before anyone gets to this point…

    No, I do not say majority of Muslims are fundamentalist radicals. Minority of that majority are. But majority sees themselves same way as this radicalist group.

    And you know, one man’s terrorist is another ones freedom fighter.

    So while majority of that majority would not dream of blowing up disco or murder movie director, neither they have interest to weed out from their community those who have no such limitations.

    • Enrique

      –Islam has a monopoly on barbarism?

      Thank you JusticeDemon for posting this. I think people forget too soon where xenophobia took us. If you want to study the mind of a deranged mind, Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess, there is one passage in his memories that struck out: He said that he was able to murder so many people in the gas chambers because Heinrich Himmler had told him that if he did not do so, the Jews would end up doing the same to the Germans.

  24. Tony Garcia

    I understood we shouldn’t spread hatred.

    Well it’s not hatred when a immigrant do, you stupid Brazilian, just when Finns do…

    Oh… Sori…

    • Enrique

      To be frank with you, I had a difficult time following this woman’s distressed story. The message is clear: Muslims are all animals and this was published by the BNP. I think it is pretty opportunistic that a political party is using this woman for their political agenda. Isn’t it a police matter? Check out this video of an old Greek pedophile.

      http://www.elpais.com/articulo/reportajes/Cerco/pederastas/elpepusocdmg/20090823elpdmgrep_1/Tes

      Even though the clip was published in Madrid daily El Pais, the suspect is Greek and speaks in English. What conclusions and generalizations should we make about (a) senior citizens, and (2) Greeks and Europeans?

    • Enrique

      –Auschwitz 1944 and today

      Tony, what is your point? I am sorry, but I do not understand the connection.

    • Enrique

      Tony, I could take a picture of an indigenous tribe in Africa before and after colonization/slavery.

  25. JusticeDemon

    Your western wingnut video was about a pro-Israel rally in Copenhagen, Tony, but it didn’t identify the wingnut in question.

    Your Islamic wingnut video was mainly footage of UK riot police, again related to Israel and the conduct of that country in Gaza in January 2009. It similarly did not identify the wingnut in question, nor was there any even indirect reference to Islam.

    Here is a western wingnut:

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUHS5u8v1Ck&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0]

    For an Islamic wingnut at the same level of debate, try this:

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jYUL7eBdHg&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0]

  26. intternetnetsi

    -“Hannu, I think you are over streatching the point. I remember in the Catholic religion similar nonsense. We don´t have to go too back in time to uncover ludicrous things told by different religions.”

    So we cant say anything about catlolic religion? Am i catholicfobic when i think many things they say and do are fucking ridiculous?
    And if burkha is just nice cultural costume then KKK costume is also.

    • Enrique

      –So we cant say anything about catlolic religion? Am i catholicfobic when i think many things they say and do are fucking ridiculous?

      This may be “ridiculous” from your point of view, which is pretty racist (Islamophobia = racism). So you would compare the burkha with the KKK robe. Interesting.

      One of the matters that we should be vigilant is not allow hysteria/extremism/xenophobia loose. This applies to everyone. The problem with the extremist point of view is that he/she thinks that he/she is right and holds the moral high ground. I am hopeful that people will not fall into this trap. The extremists are a danger in Muslim as well as in our society. Even though they get a lot of coverage due to their extreme views, they are a minority. Do you believe that Britain will ever have a BNP prime minister? Will it have one that professes jihad against our society, which comprises of many ethnic backgrounds.

  27. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, I could take a picture of an indigenous tribe in Africa before and after colonization/slavery”

    Yes you could, and it’d be fair point. So they should fight for to good their place and us for our.

    “Tony, what is your point? I am sorry, but I do not understand the connection.”

    It’s very simple.

    I think it’s absolutely pathetic someone trying to defend what Islam is doing today by using what we did 70 years ago. Anyone with a few neurons working would avoid such ridicule.

    What next?

    Inquisition, Roman Empire, first case of hemorrhoid?

    • Enrique

      –I think it’s absolutely pathetic someone trying to defend what Islam is doing today by using what we did 70 years ago. Anyone with a few neurons working would avoid such ridicule.

      Is any sensible person defending antisemitism in any culture and what happened in Europe in World War II? I think both examples should be condemned. Anyone who thinks that the Final Solution was a made up story has got a lot to learn. But, as you can see, people love what they know (Gertrud Stein) that they can distort real historical events that took place.

      –Inquisition, Roman Empire, first case of hemorrhoid?

      This may happen if we allow xenophobia to get the best of us.

  28. intternetnetsi

    -Is any sensible person defending antisemitism in any culture…Anyone who thinks that the Final Solution was a made up story has got a lot to learn.

    So youre islamophobic?

    • Enrique

      –So youre islamophobic?

      No, I would not say so. Hannu, being of a different opinion — not using extra baggage like racism and the likes — is a characteristic of our society. Do you think that if somebody has a different opinion one is either (a) phobic or (b) hates that country?

  29. intternetnetsi

    You seem to think so, atleast when you dont like that opinion.
    You just called muslims nonsensible ignorant people.

    When i call hijab and headscarfs a visible manifestation of unequality, oppression, medieval laws and clear manifestation of not wanting to be part of western society then im islamophobic according to you.

    http://www.kaleva.fi/plus/juttu790856_page0.htm

    “Nainen epäilee, että miehet kokevat muslimeina hänen olevan ikään heidän omaisuuttaan. Koska hän on eurooppalaisesti pukeutunut, miehet pitävät häntä niin sanotusti huorana.”

    Thats how it is, nice fellows those jolly muslims…

    • Enrique

      –You seem to think so, atleast when you dont like that opinion. You just called muslims nonsensible ignorant people.

      Wow Hannu, you never cease to surprise me. Now you accuse me of being calling Muslims “ignorant people.” Your affirmation is as valid as a concentration camp prisoner who is accused of being the one for throwing in Zyclon b into the gas chamber. Give me a break and use some other tactics, like debating fairly, the issue.

  30. intternetnetsi

    What you think muslim teachings say about jews then?
    You are really gullible if you trust when muslim tells you its religion of peace… Well it is kinda, when area is under islamic laws its called “territory of peace”…
    They have been antisemitic since medina.

    KORAN [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

    And about holocaust, major newspapers and leaders in arab/muslim countries deny holocaust or say its exaccerated.

    • Enrique

      –You are really gullible if you trust when muslim tells you its religion of peace…

      OK, Hannu, let’s take your solution: Declare war and bomb all the Muslim countries. In your strategy you could also target Muslim communities in the US and Europe with smart bombs. Don’t you see how ridiculous your statement is? Would it solve anything except fuel more hatred.

  31. Tony Garcia

    “And about holocaust, major newspapers and leaders in arab/muslim countries deny holocaust or say its exaccerated.”

    Why go that far? Just have a look what is happening in the UK.

    • Enrique

      –“And about holocaust, major newspapers and leaders in arab/muslim countries deny holocaust or say its exaccerated.”

      One of the biggest challenges to peace in the Middle East is resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As you know, injustice and oppression only feeds discord and fanatics on both sides. Taking into account the injustices that have happened in the Middle East through USAmerican-European military intervention and colonialism, it is not surprising why things are in such a state. What do we do? Do we feed the flames of discord or find solutions to the problem? I would take the latter route.

      Tony, I can also show you tapes of Christians in the US who contest evolution and fundamentalism.

  32. Tiwaz

    -“Tiwaz, by making such an affirmation you openly declare war on these groups.”

    No, it merely states that there is a line which I for one am not willing to cross to appease these groups.

    “There is no chance of every finding a middle ground to build a relationship.”

    Because there is no middle ground! For Islamic groups, and more specifically their minority who are most radical (and enjoy silent blessing of majority) demand absolute obedience to Islam.

    And even if they did not, there is no middle ground. Finland is home of Finns because in it things are done according to Finnish culture and tradition. It is our home.

    Middle ground would only mean that we must make our home more like home of someone else, and lose OUR home in the progress.

    Why you are not out there Enrique, preaching that fundamentalist states like Saudi Arabia must find middle ground and “unislamisize” themselves so WE would be more at home THERE?

    You only demand appeasement from WESTERN societies.

    “The term “barbarian” was, I suspect, used when “white barbarians” colonized and dominated “less civilized” people in other continents.”

    I use it when people mutilate their children, make women wear potato sacks or face danger of rape, murder their daughters for being raped, murder their daughters for dating someone outside their religious/cultural group and so forth.

    What are those things if not barbarism? Do you find murdering daughter for dating man unapproved by parents to be civilized behavior?

    As for JusticeDemon and his honestly idiotic comparisons.

    You guys should notice that your wonderful example of Auschwitz is SIXTY YEARS OLD!
    Barbarism of Islamic communities is happening TODAY.

    Trying to justify Islamic barbarism of today based on barbarism practiced by some Western societies generation or more ago is pathetic.

  33. Tony Garcia

    Good morning Enrique. Hope you had a good weekend.

    Some days ago I posted a news from YLE about illegal immigration. Your reaction to that was…

    “Stories like these attempt to awaken anger and hatred…I won’t believe it until I actually see something more substantial…As any critical journalist, I would question the information.”

    Could you please take a look at this news?

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/08/attitudes_towards_immigrants_harden_in_recession_947227.html

    Is this the same case?

  34. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, I can also show you tapes of Christians in the US who contest evolution and fundamentalism.”

    Do they express their disagreement using violence?

    Anyway you never stops amazing me. First you condemn anti-Semitism, very well, so I show to you who is doing this today. Rather than condemn those people for doing that you take a more apologetic approach and excuse them.

    Unbelievable…

    • Enrique

      –Do they express their disagreement using violence?

      I cannot say how much or by whom because I have not seen reliable data. The reason why I am against what you showed is because it has a definite message: mistrust Muslims. I don’t like to look at people as a group. In every society there are all types. Because one idiot makes a ludicrous claim does not mean that I should see billions of people in the same light.

  35. Tony Garcia

    “I think it is pretty opportunistic that a political party is using this woman for their political agenda.”

    Opportunistic? Using the woman? Oh God…

    They are denouncing a problem that others decided not to, and are using victims testimony to back up their claims and that’s wrong. If they don’t use the testimony it’d be than an empty claim lacking credibility. The fact is that denounce what these people is doing is wrong no matter how you do it. The so called “let them be” policy.

    This world is upside down than…

    What we do then? In name of community cohesion and cultural sensitivity pretend that nothing is happening and give our daughters to these predators?

    • Enrique

      Tony, thank you for your kind wishes. I hope you had a nice weekend as well.

      –Opportunistic? Using the woman? Oh God…

      Yes, exactly. Why would a party with a reputation for bashing immigrants want to expose this problem? I hope they are really concerned but I believe the real reason is political mileage. Furthermore, this is a police issue. Are you stating that the police in England aren’t doing anything to combat this type of crime?

  36. Tony Garcia

    “Why would a party with a reputation for bashing immigrants want to expose this problem?”

    Because no one is doing? Because they are not tided by political correctness? Because they are not after Muslim votes like Labour?

    “Are you stating that the police in England aren’t doing anything to combat this type of crime?”

    In that case why expose cases of racism or discrimination? Isn’t this also a police issue? Why some cases must be reported and other should be suppressed? Sorry but I’m far from convinced.

    Anyway you didn’t answer my question about the latest YLE news about racism. Did they do wrong reporting it?

    • Enrique

      –Because no one is doing? Because they are not tided by political correctness? Because they are not after Muslim votes like Labour?

      Do you really believe that if a woman or man is a victim of aggression in England nothing happens? That the police will take a step back and hide in a wall of political correctness? I think you are wrong. The police are not paid to think but follow and enforce the laws of the land. If a party like the BNP takes these issues and uses them to get votes, I believe they lose a lot of credibility. Since this is a political party showing a distressed woman, I cannot be sure about the credibility of the source. A news organization such as the BBC would make it more credible.

  37. Tony Garcia

    “I cannot say how much or by whom because I have not seen reliable data.”

    Why did you use it in the first place? The Muslims Do use violence against Jews.

    “Because one idiot makes a ludicrous claim…”

    Is this how you see it? One idiot make claims? Is that all? Oh boy you are so far from the reality…

    • Enrique

      –The Muslims Do use violence against Jews.

      And it is also the other way around.

      –Oh boy you are so far from the reality…

      Do you take everything you hear seriously? People have a right to their opinions no matter how unacceptable they are. However, if that person changes laws to suit his political agenda, then that is when we must strike back through lobbying, writing and by using other democratic means.

  38. Tiwaz

    -“I cannot say how much or by whom because I have not seen reliable data. The reason why I am against what you showed is because it has a definite message: mistrust Muslims. I don’t like to look at people as a group. In every society there are all types. Because one idiot makes a ludicrous claim does not mean that I should see billions of people in the same light.”

    Then why you accept the Somali “We are poor victims of racism”-claim at face value?

    How was this information verified? It wasn’t!

    But you accepted that without even a hiccup!

    • Enrique

      –Then why you accept the Somali “We are poor victims of racism”-claim at face value?

      So you do not think that Somalis are victims of racism in Finland and elsewhere in Europe? What is the reason for all this hostility?

  39. intternetnetsi

    “I think you are wrong.”

    I think you dont read news.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/565679.stm

    “Metropolitan Police officers are so worried about being accused of racism that they risk losing the fight against crime, a report has said.

    The number of incidents of stop and search in London, a practice dogged by accusations of racism, has halved since the Stephen Lawrence report in February. “

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