Speigel Online International: Study (on Muslims in Germany) Hints that Mutual Suspicion Is Slowing Integration

by , under Enrique

Comment: Here is an interesting story on Speigel Online International that highlights the problem between white Germans and Muslims and one that we should try to avoid in Finland. When looking at immigrants in Germany, we should point out that that country never had the intention of keeping the millions of Turkish workers that migrated there in greater numbers from the 1960s. The expectation was that they’d work for a few years and return back with their children to their home country.

It is pretty clear that with such a widespread attitude very little can happen on the integration front. Chancellor Angela Merkel highlighted the problem by placing the blame squarely on immigrants by stating that Germany’s multicultural society has “utterly failed.” 

A new study by the interior ministry appears to reinforce what Merkel said in October. One of the result of the survey shows that 20% of Muslims in the country are skeptical when it comes to integration.

Fine. But the question should be what has Germany done to make Muslims feel a part of German society. Even the interior ministry survey is one-sided and places blame on Muslims for not wanting to integrate, it fails to look at the host society. 

While Hans-Peter Uhl, the parliamentary spokesman on domestic policy for Mekel’s conservatives, called the study “horrifying,” others take a different view. “I find it surprising that the interior ministry has once again used taxpayer money to finance a study that creates headlines but no insights,” said Serkan Tören, an integration expert for the business-friendly Free Democrats, Merkel’s junior coalition partner.

Volker Beck of the Green Party went further. She said that those that see Muslims solely as a threat should stop telling them that they aren’t a part of our society. “They shouldn’t be surprised when that leads to defensiveness,” she said. 

____________

By Charles Hawley

A new integration study released on Thursday has triggered yet another debate about the role of Islam in Germany. The report found that a surprising number of non-German Muslims are skeptical about integrating into society. But the country’s own doubts about immigration may have muddied the data.

Read whole story.

  1. Berger

    In the 60’s many immigrants from islamic world came to Western European countries as labour. To work in different sectors of industry. That of course in not the case nowadays, since there isn’t jobs available in industry.

    I can understand very well that problems arise when people move to a country without hope from work, with no formal education and possibily even can’t write on their own language.

    But Isn’t it very strange that even after 3rd generation immigrants from islamic countries now feel that things are not ok from their view (in Netherlands the case is similar)? That they are sceptical what comes to integration. So why is this the case, why have muslims not integrated? After all one would expect that, since we are now talking about people who are born in Germany!

    “But the question should be what has Germany done to make Muslims feel a part of German society.”

    I’m sorry but that sounds a bit funny when you blame Germans: what exactly Germany shoud do otherwise? Surely another public funding scheme for integration will not change anything, nor will any 3rd sector activity. Isn’t it evident that the main reason for poor integration lies within values, norms, way of thinking and role models that are too different from “German values”?

    As it can be seen, multicultural society will probably never work without significant problems and will be managable only by ever-lasting public funding.

  2. BlandaUpp

    Berger “what exactly Germany shoud do otherwise”

    What they should have done form the start was to have better language and integration courses when it became clear that the German economy would collapse without these workers. These people saved Germany and buil their economy and they deserve better treatment.

    I saw a documentary about a well integrated Iranian family with highly educated second generation children talking about how everything changed for them after 9/11. Suddenly they weren’t considered German enough. This is a pattern repeated in The Netherlands as well. Prior to the post 9/11 rise of Pim Fortuin and his anti-Islam stance, it was uncommon to see a young girl of Moroccan descent wearing a headscarf in Amsterdam but the more these people were told how bad their heritage was, they more they rebelled and outwardly showed their pride in their roots.

  3. Berger

    BlandaUpp

    You certainly have a partial point in the mechanism of bad integration. Open critique can make things worse. And here exactly is, what I believe, the hot potatoe: should we as natives of western countries keep our mouths shut when we face values, way of thinking and behaviour that we don’t like or have doubts about? In reality some type of behaviour promoted by values (and religion) may very well even be sanctioned by the law (for instance slaughtering animals and circumcision).

  4. BlandaUpp

    Berger

    The last time “we as natives of western countries” faced this issue of “values, way of thinking and behaviour that we don’t like or have doubts about” regarding “some type of behaviour promoted by values (and religion)”, we were talking about Jews and the result was the Holocaust.

    Would you advocate we go down the same path or find a better path of inclusion and tolerance?

    There is no place in any civilized society for extremists of either kind.

  5. Berger

    BlandaUpp

    Well well. There is absolutely no point in comparing holocaust to today’s dabate on muslims. Situation of Jews was so different from situation of muslims today. It is needless to discuss on that.

    Western societies have managed so well just because of basic western values: freedom of speech, equal opportunities, gender equality, treatment of sexual minorities, freedom to leave religious community etc. There has been huge development in western societies on this front, and still there is a lot to do to protect those basic values.

    But those values are today challenged by new minorities when they enter political processes and express their freedom of speech.

    There was today a front page story in Turun Sanomat concerning some religious Kurdish people who were on their way to Helsinki (Norwegian embassy) to demand changes in Norwegian legislation. They wanted changes to legislation on freedom of speech.

    Can you see the point? I wonder what will be the next target. Probably demanding sharia courts like in UK? I bet we are going to see that in the near future.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Western societies have managed so well just because of basic western values: freedom of speech, equal opportunities, gender equality, treatment of sexual minorities, freedom to leave religious community etc.

      So what do we do? Deny those civil rights from other groups?

      Sorry Berger, but your reasoning to curtail civil rights sounds familiar. PS MP James Hirvisaari is one person who uses your argument.

  6. justicedemon

    Berger

    Isn’t it about time you came clean and admitted that you are a retired Monty Python scriptwriter? This is simply recycling your earlier work:

    THE BIGOT

    ‘Any Answers’
    Hitler
    Surrey

    Deep down, let’s face it, all of us hate foreigners. It’s quite natural when one lives in such a beautiful and perfect country as our own to hate and loathe those greasy-haired swivelling toadies from Europe and beyond. What worries me is that sometimes this hatred is so deep down that many of us forget about it, and instead of hitting Frenchmen and letting Dagos’ tyres down, we are buying garlic-smelling French cars and eating filthy chunks of Wop dough in stinking Pizza parlours. Now I’m not saying that we should go out and burn down the nearest Eye-tie, Chink, Froggie or Pakki restaurant – I think the army should be doing that – but if we are going to keep this lovely country of ours beautiful, clean and deeply religious, we must remember that the Young Bigots Club is only a phone call away. They will come round at a moment’s notice and tread on packets of Gauloises and throw Grundig equipment down the lavatory. Remember, Tolerance is a great British virtue – let’s not waste it on Yids, Polacks, Wops, Krauts and Arabs.

    Col. Sir Harry McWhirter M.C.C.,
    Chairman The Bloody Bigots Club 1937-93

  7. Berger

    justicedeamon

    This is the last time I’m going to say anything to you.

    I had a naive idea that in this blog people would really stand like a man behind their own values and ideas. And change ideas and opinions. Apparently this is not the case.

    So far especially you, justicedeamon, act like a bloodhound who smells a target. You seem to be tuned / activated to sense the slightest amount of opposite worldview. Once you get that electro-chemical signal in your brain, you use all your abilities to attack the opponent. Lucky for you. Shows some energy from a young guy.

    But at the end of the day, mate, I haven’t seen any analysis from you pen, nor have I seen any idea or thinking in your posts.

    Not any sign of acceptance or tolerance either – values you proudly seem to support. Maybe you should look in a mirror.

    • Migrant Tales

      Berger, how do you think a group can alter legislation if they are excluded, discriminated and kept out of society? Certainly such a group cannot be a threat unless they become a social movement like what happened in the U.S. in the 1950s and 1960s.

      I thought this point interesting: “The bigger those groups are, more likely we have to face demands to alter our legislation to satisfy new needs. At least in long term. And that is exactly the point where we all have to ask ourselves what are our basic values and how those demands relate and affect them.”

      Now, Berger, what would you say about the PS? It would be wrong for me to state that I don’t respect the election result. I do, but I disagree totally with their policies. It is the same thing if a far-right party would win the election. If they have two thirds majority, they can do a lot of things.

      But let’s be realistic. I highly doubt that an Islamic party would ever get such political power in Finland. Look at it this way, we are a Lutheran country but the Christian Democrats are a tiny party. Therefore, why are you warning us that we will be taken over or that group x will change our democracy? This could be the real question instead of speculating about something that is highly unlikely not to happen.

      An important point: cultures do not remain stagnant they evolve every second. If people come to a society, you must grant them their civil liberties and offer them opportunities. In other words, you have to empower them to take part in the community and in the political decision-making process. That is the best way to safeguard our society in the future not by seeing people as a threat and excluding them.

  8. Berger

    Migrant Tales

    “So what do we do? Deny those civil rights from other groups?

    Sorry Berger, but your reasoning to curtail civil rights sounds familiar. PS MP James Hirvisaari is one person who uses your argument.”

    Of course not. I think I aswered to that in other thread already. As I there indicated that would be totally unacceptable. Same rights belong to every citizen, to all groups.

    I’m not familiar with Hirvisaari’s argumentation. Based on the general picture I have got from media, he seem to lack argumentation, instead he seem to have opinions.

  9. justicedemon

    Berger

    Yeah, right.

    Behind all of your synthetic outrage is the irritating little point that your contribution did indeed resemble a 1970s parody of a bigoted Little Englander. What you said was that freedom of speech is fine unless some bloody foreigner actually exercises it:

    But those values are today challenged by new minorities when they enter political processes and express their freedom of speech.

    And you went of to complain about a demonstration outside the Norwegian embassy. Your intolerance of this is Col. Sir Harry McWhirter M.C.C. to a tee.

    Obviously you’ve realised what you said, because now you are saying:

    Same rights belong to every citizen, to all groups.

    Which (though technically not quite true) presumably at least means that those foreign demonstrators were fully entitled to express themselves on the same terms and conditions as everyone else, n’est-ce pas?

  10. Berger

    Migrant Tales

    I may have false perception, but I suppose muslims in Finland – once they are citizens – are not excluded from participation to society’s functions.

    PS did not enter the government. But still their elections victory has forced government to tighten immigration policy. What else could possibily be the reason?

    Immigrants in Finland really are empovered to take part in the community. Almost 1 billion euros is spent to that purpose every year. So there isn’t lack of that kind of effort. But what if some groups of immigrants just see things from a very different kind of value-setting, no matter what?

    My main concern is that in the name of human rights we shall gadually make concessions that allows some groups to manage their communities with their own “added” rules (that come from their culture, religion etc.). They are certainly not altering the system or taking over, but possibily a small part of it. In UK there are sharia courts. I really do not see that desirable. But as you stated, societies and cultures do change all the time.

    Seeing groups as potential threats and excluding them are absolutely not the two sides of the coin. The first relates to situation analysis and the latter to choosed action.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Almost 1 billion euros is spent to that purpose every year.

      Could you please provide me the sources for this claim?

      –My main concern is that in the name of human rights we shall gadually make concessions that allows some groups to manage their communities with their own “added” rules (that come from their culture, religion etc.).

      What you are suggesting is more serious. You are stating that it’s ok to break our laws and values so we can defend our freedoms. That is the same argument that some military governments used in Latin America in the 1970s to justify their de facto regimes. I know, because I lived under one.

      The law, civil rights, and obligations apply to everyone. You cannot give civil rights to one group and exclude another. By doing that you jeopardize our system of democracy.

      By your reasoning, countries like the US, Canada, Australia and others are in hot water. They are about to see their system of government change. I am exaggerating my point a bit but you understand what I am getting at.

  11. BlandaUpp

    Berger

    -There is absolutely no point in comparing holocaust to today’s dabate on muslims. Situation of Jews was so different from situation of muslims today. It is needless to discuss on that.

    On the contrary! We are repeating the EXACT steps that lead to the extermination of millions of Jews and Roma and the excuses were the exact same as the ones you spout below.

    -Western societies have managed so well just because of basic western values: freedom of speech, equal opportunities, gender equality, treatment of sexual minorities, freedom to leave religious community etc. There has been huge development in western societies on this front, and still there is a lot to do to protect those basic values.

    I would suggest you visit a “western” society like Israel and the USA and show me what is different between the treatment of Gays and women in the Evangelical Christian and Orthodox Jewish communities compared to non-western Muslim countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, Iran or Morocco.

    וְאֶת-זָכָר—לֹא תִשְׁכַּב, מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה: תּוֹעֵבָה, הִוא.
    Lev.18,22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.
    וְאִישׁ, אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכַּב אֶת-זָכָר מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה—תּוֹעֵבָה עָשׂוּ, שְׁנֵיהֶם; מוֹת יוּמָתוּ, דְּמֵיהֶם בָּם.
    Lev.20,13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Here’s another recent story from a “democratic, Western, liberal state” that might interest you http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/world/middleeast/israeli-girl-at-center-of-tension-over-religious-extremism.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

  12. hannu

    “The law, civil rights, and obligations apply to everyone. ”

    According to you, no. Mutilation of childrens is ok if “culture” and well whatnot is ok if “culture”.
    Your example empire is where every group had own laws etc.
    Offtopic but read monthly addition of HS, there was heartwarming story about immigrant who went home to learn his culture… You know thats what you support and want.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hannu, have you been rounding up people on the net and sending them to us?

  13. Mark

    Hannu

    According to you, no. Mutilation of childrens is ok if “culture” and well whatnot is ok if “culture”.

    Absolute crap. You are lying, Hannu. Show me anywhere here where mutilation of children is defended?

    If you want to be fair and honest, then you will represent the views of multiculturalists honestly. If you don’t, then maybe we should start saying that you want to ‘hang all immigrants’. I mean come on. It’s easy to create a straw man Hannu. It takes a really man of intellectual integrity to stick to the truth in an argument.

  14. Berger

    Migrant tales

    Information on the costs can be found from http://ohjelmat.yle.fi/mot/arkisto/mot_maahanmuuton_hinta

    As you may know, it is not easy job to figure out the costs.

    “What you are suggesting is more serious. You are stating that it’s ok to break our laws and values so we can defend our freedoms. That is the same argument that some military governments used in Latin America in the 1970s to justify their de facto regimes. I know, because I lived under one.”

    Now you must have completely misunderstood me. I was referring to sharia courts. I’m afraid that some day we’ll probably see those in Finland as well.

    Or are you seriously suggesting that prohibiting sharia courts (as they are prohibited currently in Finland) violates human rights and breaks our laws? That would be very odd.

    Did you know that there are over 80 sharia courts in UK which solve civil cases related to economic questions and family matters? Part of those courts violate UK laws and violate human rights, according to a study.

  15. justicedemon

    Berger

    If you have ever bought anything in a shop, then you left the shop with less money than you had when you went into the shop. By the logic of your last contribution, it is therefore never worthwhile to buy anything from a shop.

    Finland was uninhabited 30,000 years ago. Its present residents are all either immigrants or their descendants. If an absolute loss was incurred in each immigration event, then there would be no Finnish economy at all. If you don’t like the 30,000-year timescale, then suggest and justify some other timescale for determining whether immigration is profitable.

    Sharia arbitration of precisely the kind practiced in the United Kingdom is entirely lawful in Finland. That is what we mean by freedom of contract. If you disagree, then show us the specific law that proscribes it. The only difference between the UK and Finland in this regard is that there is too little demand for a standing sharia tribunal in Finland. There is no domestic sharia court in Finland for the same reason that there is no specialist domestic sake manufacturer or Sri Lankan gourmet vegetarian food distributor.

    Incidentally, where would you expect to settle a contractual dispute between a halal restaurant and a halal food distributor in Finland that turns on the question of whether a consignment was halal? Find me the authority that both parties respect on this point and I shall show you a Sharia court.

    You made up that bit about “according to a study”, unless the source was something like Stormfront.

  16. BlandaUpp

    Berger

    I’m still waiting for your response to what I said.

    Hannu

    So I take it you don’t like Jews and Muslims because they circumcise their boys? Did you know that 30% of all males on earth are circumcised and that it’s not obligatory in Islam whereas it is obligatory in Judaism?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Mixup and welcome (again?) to your blog.

      –how can anything fail in Germany? Impossible!

      A good question. Isn’t it incredible that we can put people on the Moon but we still haven’t figured out how to live together.

  17. Mixup

    BlandaUpp

    What could be added that in the Netherlands the free language courses offered were rather empty, is it that you mean by? ”more they rebelled and outwardly showed their pride in their roots.” So if you get a reason not to integrate you will not do it.

    • Migrant Tales

      OK, Mixup, what is the solution, then? How do we get more immigrants to integrate? Now by integration I am certain you mean two-way integration, right? If not, can you tell us how immigrants should integrate. Give us a simple step-by-step explanation. I am certain a lot of people will read that thread with interest.

    • Migrant Tales

      Migrant Tales has been receiving tons of threads from some far-right anti-immigration website(s). We have seen this before but never in such numbers. I know that Migrant Tales is a cool place to let out steam but we are not interested in anti-immigration rhetoric. One that comes to mind is that the only type of racism is against whites. Oy vey!

      This is not a blog to spread urban tales about immigrants. There are many places like Hommaforum where you can do this.

      Please bear in mind you will have a better chance of participating on Migrant Tales if you bring meaningful solutions to the table. Whining about how x group is bad and y group should be thrown in jail won’t do it. Give us solutions.

      Thank you.

  18. Berger

    BlandaUpp

    “On the contrary! We are repeating the EXACT steps that lead to the extermination of millions of Jews and Roma and the excuses were the exact same as the ones you spout below.”

    Do you really mean that saying no to competing value-sets paves way to holocaust – automatically, just like that? I did not have in mind “saying no” to the whole set of specipic value-system. Just to characteristics that are totally contradictory with our basic values. After all we can talk about Finnish values, as we can discuss on Iranian, Turkish or Afgan values, can we? Or even islamic values.

    “I would suggest you visit a “western” society like Israel and the USA and show me what is different between the treatment of Gays and women in the Evangelical Christian and Orthodox Jewish communities compared to non-western Muslim countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, Iran or Morocco.”

    Like you said, you are now comparing some specialities in one system to the whole system somewhere else. You actually imply that because there are rotten tomatoes in Israel and USA, those are’nt much different to muslim countries, despite the fact that the whole system is rotten at constitution level already, in those muslim countries (from human rights perspective).

    I’m happy tough that you also seem to think that value-systems that are in force in muslim states are violating human rights.

    • Migrant Tales

      –After all we can talk about Finnish values, as we can discuss on Iranian, Turkish or Afgan values, can we? Or even islamic values.

      Berger, did you know that the first multicultural country in the world was the Ottoman Empire? Things went terribly wrong there in about the mid-nineteenth century when one group started to impose its ideas on others. That’s always the prelude to strife and genocide as we saw with the Armenians.

    • Migrant Tales

      Berger, I didn’t find that 1-billion-euro figure you are speaking of. Are you talking about development aid? Ever thought that immigrants that come to Finland create jobs and services?

      Even so, that link you provided did not answer the question.

  19. Mixup

    More logical question would be ‘why do not these people attend language courses?’

    Anyhow, introduction course into the society where they go along with language studies. Compulsory language course up to three years (or sufficient level of the language). Note. the so called expats also have to learn the language if the live permanently in the country. Following with job training, secondary and tertiary education. If you fail to meet the criterias or the opportunities offered and you lack doctor’s certificate the benefits will be taken away. The same with children if they stop going to school or otherwise deliberately don’t learn the compulsory stuff. Children entering country in the middle of elementary school is a little different, though if they are able to read they can go on the introduction/language course.

    The introduction and language parts are offered in several languages ( 9 was it in one country), languages where the potential asylum seekers come from.

    May Migrant Tales answer what I never understood. Most of the western european countries cumulate more debt year by year and they still immigrate masses of people. Why this?

    • Migrant Tales

      –Anyhow, introduction course into the society where they go along with language studies. Compulsory language course up to three years (or sufficient level of the language).

      Would this be enforced on the so-called natives as well?

  20. Dinasaurus

    Peter, Peter of Finland (same guy perhaps), Migrant Tales, Depressed4reason, Mark, Justice demon and Berger

    You are frequent flyers of this ”bigoted” word. Anti-immigration includes evidently also left wing in todays politics worldwide or far left as it should be stated to toe to the party line here.

    • Migrant Tales

      Dinasaurus, what is your point? What do you want to tell us? Is it something we know after this blog has received close to 20,000 threads? Come on, surprise us.

  21. Mixup

    The so-called natives don’t really need introduction into the system, nor language studies. I don’t get your point. Why would people living in a country need those things?

    How do you answer my question?

    • Migrant Tales

      The point, Mixup, is that you are applying one standard for immigrants (forcing them to study a language) while that is a choice among the natives. That was my point.

      People have a right to make choices in our society. We have fought long enough for such rights.

      That is the problem, in my opinion, with the conservative view of immigrants: One standards for them and another one for us. The person applying such forced standards would never force them on his or her constituents.

  22. Dinasaurus

    Migrant Tales

    –Anyhow, introduction course into the society where they go along with language studies. Compulsory language course up to three years (or sufficient level of the language).

    Would this be enforced on the so-called natives as well?

    If you would ask a 43 year old plumber from Sachsen to take the things suggested for immigrants he would probably answer. Typ. or French equivalent, putain 🙂

    • Migrant Tales

      Dinasaurus, I know and wouldn’t. 🙂 Immigrants are ambitious people. Didn’t they leave their homes to start anew? How many of us have such guts? My father moved to the US and got a job in a French company because he spoke French. He never learned to speak perfect accent-free English but got by. He studied and got a Masters, worked and made something out of himself while raising a family.

      My point here is that opportunities must exist for inclusion to happen.

  23. Dinasaurus

    sure, the natives have the option not to get born. But once they are born, in many countries you have to go to school. Like it or not. There is no difference if you are an immigrant or not.

    By going to school you probably also get the basics of how to deal with a society. Regarding immigrants, you can also flip the coin. Why don’t immigrants a country pays for have the same obligations as normal citizens or school children. That is a more reasonable approach. You can say with your reasoning that ordinary citizens have to learn some stuff but immigrants don’t.

    If you want to stay, you do as others have done. That is the constitution and unlike you claim it is equal. Everybody has the same right and same obligations.

    Also Eu citizens, they are and should be forced to know the language if they want to live and use public services in another country.

  24. Dinasaurus

    and a reasonably thinking individual knows. It is not bad to know the language where yo live nor the habits, it is a MAJOR opportunity. So many doors will open by these skills.

    2 weeks in the jungle and you speak the same language as Cheta, Jane and Tarzan.

  25. Peter of Finland

    Dinasaurus Yes ‘Peter’ and ‘Peter of Finland’ are the same person. I added the “of Finland” when invited to be an associate editor of this blog.

    Do you have a problem with the word ‘bigot’? Or is it the labling of certain persons as ‘bigots’ that touches a little close to the grain?

    Just incase there is some confusion, a ‘bigot’ is someone intolerant of others, often on the basis of a perceived difference.

    Are you suggesting that people on the left of the political spectrum aren’t racists or xenophobes? If so, you are sorely mistaken! Research by political scientists has shown that traditional cleavages (i.e., left vs. right) are no longer clearly discernable. Far right parties can, for example, cling to the social democratic welfare statist discourse, yet express views on migration traditionally seen to belong to the extreme right. An example of such welfare statist yet extreme right views can be seen in the discourse of the more insidious element of the PS.

    Sadly such individuals seem to dictate the political discussion in many European states today. Personally I don’t believe in a migration free-for-all, but neither do I wish to see closed borders. Migration is a fact of life: before our knowledge of the world was ordered by the nation state system, people moved both long and short distances in search of many things. Indeed in the Age of Imperialism the ‘New World’ was conolonized and ruthlessly exploited for its resources. The potato, for example,-that staple of the Finnish diet-was brough to Europe by Sir Francis Drake in the 16th century from the ‘New World’.

    It is acknowledged by most politicians that Finland needs sustained levels of immigration if we all want to maintain current levels of social welfare support. Racism comes in where individuals or institutions seek to order potential newcomers according to a hierarchy of ‘races’ or ‘ethnicities’.

    I and many others hold that all human beings have the equal to potential to contribute to our society, regardless of their background. Culture is not stable but dynamic. Ideas and ways of living have always traveled and have been influenced by the ‘other’. There is no essential, stable culture as the nationalist doctrine proclaims.

    If migrants wish to come here, learn the local language(s), and contribute to our society then great. Welcome home! 🙂

    Unfortunately there are also individuals who seek to take from our society. Racists often claim that ‘immigrants’ are the sole drain on our society’s resources. These individuals are blind to the fact that there are members of their own ‘group’ who contribute nothing and take from our welfare state their whole lives. Such one sidedness in their viewpoint only reconfirms their prejudices.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Sans accent, welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales.

      I like a lot what Peter of Finland writes. That last thread has got to be one of his best.

  26. finlandpeter

    Furthermore with regard to the acknowledgement of politicians that Finland needs migrants, the OECD recently suggested that Finland either needs to increase taxes drastically or import more labour in order to maintain its current welfare system.

    My guess is that even the anti-immigration individuals in our population will balk at the at the prospect of paying 50% plus in taxes.

    Even the baby boomer generation will be impacted and will end up paying paying upwards of 50% in taxes as their pensions will be subject such an extortionate rate of taxation due to the Nordic welfare model where benefits are also subject to taxation.

    It’ll be the youngest people that will hardest hit however, as without a sustained healthy level of immigration, they’ll have to pay this level of taxes for their entire working lives or otherwise the neo-liberal reforms taking place across the globe will rob them of any welfare provisions at all!

  27. Peter of Finland

    Thanks Migrant tales. I aim to please.

    Sans accent Thanks for the compliment, I guess. I’m not royal, but I did swallow an English language dictionary when I was younger! 😆

  28. Dinasaurus

    Migrant Tales

    Dinasaurus, what is your point? What do you want to tell us? Is it something we know after this blog has received close to 20,000 threads? Come on, surprise us.

    sure, I will try

  29. Dinasaurus

    The topic with Finnish police confirm ethnic…

    The words including ‘racist’ (excluding quotations).

    Frequent flyers:

    D4R 8 hits
    Mark 7
    Peter 5
    justicedemon 5

    • Migrant Tales

      –The words including ‘racist’ (excluding quotations).

      Dinasaurus, and? What should they use, then? Prejudice, bigotry, discrimination, ethnocentrism, one that has interested me a long time. If I remember correctly, ethnocentrism was a term that came about in 1906. W. G. Summers defined ethnocentrism as a process where one places one’s group at the top or centre from where other groups are classified. T.W. Adorno and others this definition in 1950 by pointing out that the basis of ethnocentrism is not only a way of differentiating those that are outside or part of the group but its aim is the social submission of the outgroups.

      Are you against using the term racism?

  30. Peter of Finland

    Sans Accent “Was it sans accent?”

    Well I’m told that I don’t have an “accent” when I speak English, so I guess that you could say yes, it was sans accent. 😆

    Dinasaurus Why do you come here to troll?

    You have committed one of the cardinal sins of a bad or partial researcher. You have sought to infer something from a basic quantification of the number of times “racist” is mentioned in a string.

    The term was mentioned in discussion with other ‘trolls’ like yourself (we seem to be getting a lot of them lately, so I guess that this blog is agitating some Homma-type folks).

    Language is used in a certain context: here it is in discussion regarding the perception of our society by many newcomers. You have sought to decontextualize this language and try to suggest something (although it appears that you are not entirely sure what) by presenting your ‘data’ here.

    By presenting your ‘data’ in this fashion you seek to mislead the reader, which runs against all ethical practice in research.

    If you would like to learn the basics of academic research, I suggest that you take some basic courses in the Social Sciences. If you live in the Helsinki Metropolitan Area, you may wish to apply here, or you can find information on your local Open University from the websites of most universities in Finland.

    I believe that the second question proposed at the top of the page I have linked to is rather apt in your circumstances! 😆

  31. Dinasaurus

    You were the only one criticizing the frequent flyer program.

    So you can see that cross tabs bring Jucticedemon, Mark and D4R using both bigoted and racist. Are you surprised or not?

  32. Dinasaurus

    Migrant Tales

    Hold on dude. You asked me to surprise you after the bigoted research. So, are you surprised?

    Don’t draw false conclusions on my comments or try to falsify them.

    • Migrant Tales

      Maybe I lost something: What are you trying to point out?

  33. Mark

    Hannu

    My apologies, Hannu. Seems you were referring to something elsewhere on the blog from a long time ago that I had not read. Next time I will ask you.

  34. Mark

    Oh, Hannu, didn’t Enrique write a response that in very clear terms refuted exactly this same claim about mutilation of children being acceptable on cultural grounds:

    Enrique wrote: Who says that any type of aggression towards any children is acceptable. Nobody.

    So why did you choose to ignore his response and repeat the accusation again here? That doesn’t seem a very honest representation of Enrique’s views?

  35. Andy

    reMark

    May be the selective responding methodology is contagious?

    I thought your arguments were superior to your fellas but you seem shaky recently

  36. eihannu

    Mark he clearly says that mutilation is acceptable, read what he wrote.
    He says clearly that mutilating childrens is ok and thats part of diversity. He doesnt think that cuttin pieces of children is aggression.

    • Migrant Tales

      eihannu, the term “mutilation” is incorrect. It is called circumcision in English. I read that PS MP Vesa-Matti Saarakkala, concerned about the nosedive of the party in recent polls, is trying to use this matter as a political pick-me-up. Will it work? I doubt it.

  37. Mark

    Hannu

    Mark he clearly says that mutilation is acceptable, read what he wrote.
    He says clearly that mutilating childrens is ok and thats part of diversity. He doesnt think that cuttin pieces of children is aggression.

    I did read it. And I quoted from what he said. Nowhere did i see him say it was okay. Now I’m starting to think again that you are lying about this.

    The official line was that when performed by proper medical personnel with pain killing, male circumcision is acceptable to the authorities. Female circumcision is not. I think that Enrique was quoting from the article when he said this. I’ve already quoted his direct response to you, I’m not going to do it again. His point was that given that circumcision is widely practiced among Jews in Finland that why would an editorial be devoted to discussing just TWO cases of circumcision by Muslims. Enrique thought the editorial was overkill. That was his point. Seems reasonable enough given the case. I’m inclined to agree with you though that it was the tip of the iceberg. I’ve read research related to circumcision of women in Finland and it is an issue that needs to be kept in the public mind. It is unacceptable in Finland and I’d be happy to see it die out. But the argument has to be made and it should be made sensitively.

    The problem with these things Hannu is that they all get dragged into the immigration debate. There is nothing wrong with having debates about circumcision, but when it becomes, they shouldn’t be allowed in Finland because of these practices, that is a whole different thing. The debate has been hijacked.

  38. eihannu

    Term mutilation is correct, you can try to whitewash it but it is. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mutilate
    And look current debate about it, how many supporters do you find for your idea that its ok to mutilate child and destroy childs freedom of religion and freedom of not being attacked in name of religion.
    I want law what withouth doubt makes it illegal, adult can do whatever he wants to his dick but parents cant decide that.

  39. eihannu

    Mark enrique said “So are you going to prohibit it in Finland? Are you going to tell Jews that they should not circumsize their kids?”

    And that clearly told me that he doesnt want to prohibit it.

    • Migrant Tales

      eihannu, if you were sincere about this issue and concerned you would begin a meaningful debate with member of the Jewish and Muslim community. But that’s not possible because before the first question leaves your mouth, you have declared war on that group. In that debate, you should include as well the majority of white USAMerican born males, who are circumcised.

      The problem with your point of view is that I suspect strongly that you care less about circumcised children never mind women who were hijabs. Some groups, especially anti-immigration groups, want to prohibit many things from immigrants because they are interculturally challenged.

      If you forced a women to take off the hijab or a religion from circumcising its males, what would that create? A very conflictual situation to begin with that would fail in the end. It would end up doing more harm than good.

      Please tell us why this issue bothers you. Please tell us while you are at it what you think about Jews and Muslims.

  40. Mark

    Hannu

    And that clearly told me that he doesn’t want to prohibit it

    Actually, I’m not sure that it does. Wasn’t his point that people going after the Muslims while having nothing to say about the same Jewish practice was hypocrisy. It doesn’t mean he’s for it. And especially when he’s specifically said he condemns it. Of course, it’s up to you to clarify it with him, if you are serious about representing his views honestly.

    It’s a tricky subject, though. Personally, I’m against whatever, for the same reasons you are, I see it as a violation of the child. That makes my life a little easier.

  41. eihannu

    What i think? I think its assault against kid who cant protect himself so we as society have to.
    There is no right to one assault kid because of his/her beliefs.
    And your strawman couldnt be more wrong, im concered about all those little humans who are assaulted in name of religion.

    Anything in name of religion/whatever should be specially protected against it with nation so if someone dont want to follow religion then that right shoud be specially protected.
    No one should be forced to follow belief what they dont believe and most important thats for underaged.
    I have seen enough to tell that wearing hijab isnt something what you choose so denying it could be good, i would start on making somekind of protection to womans who deny it and not outright outlaw it.

    I really dont care if people are hindu (those dots!)/muslim (hijab), cristian or whatever. I think about that everyone has right to be what they want to be.

    I do believe that they have to right to spread their beliefs, just not touch childen or anyone.

    Also i keep my right to say that adults in there are idiots and i did hate crime by making one cry when she tried to convert me. She was pretty tho.

  42. Mark

    Hannu

    I really dont care if people are hindu (those dots!)/muslim (hijab), cristian or whatever. I think about that everyone has right to be what they want to be.

    Cool!

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