Should Finland have a Kalevan kisat for immigrants?

by , under All categories, Enrique

A story in yesterday’s (July 31) Nelosuutiset about the “worrying amount” of immigrants taking part in the national athletics championships, Kalevan kisat, was a perfect example of the scaremongering journalism practiced by some members of the Finnish media. Here is a link to a story that appeared in YLE.

The message of the story was simple – to point out how black immigrant long-distant runners are becoming a growing threat to Finnish runners because more are taking part in the competition. In order to empahsize the message, a picture of a black runner and naturalized Finn, Lewis Korir, was used passing a Finnish runner with ease.

One of the persons interviewed in the story explained how matters have gotten so much out of hand since runners can today easily get citizenship and get paid money to run for some Middle Eastern countries such as Qatar.

The person who was interviewed suggested that since getting a residence permit in Finland was relatively easy, citizenship should be required of immigrants in order to take part in the competition. Even so, what is all the fuss if Korir is a Finnish citizen?

Even though I do not understand the connection between runners getting Qatari citizenship and immigrants taking part in the Kalevan kisat, the story that was aired on Nelosuutiset is a perfect example shoddy scaremongering journalism.

It was also an odd flashback to the Finlandization days when the country “defended” itself by excluding foreigners with the help of draconian foreign investment and immigration laws.

Why couldn’t the story have the following message: Through immigration Finland will gain many future Olympic-class athletes?

During my visits to Finland in the summer, when I stayed with my grandparents, I took part in an Eastern Finland athletics championship in the 1970s. I won the high jump competition but a controversy arose just before I was going to be awarded the medal.

One group said I had no right to the medal because I lived in the United States. After much talking and explaining that my mother was Finnish, they allowed me to have the medal becauase I had won the competition fair and square.

The small example shows that there are a lot of sensible Finns who believe in the spirit of competition not on ways to limit it through nationalism.

    • Enrique

      -Show links you claim.

      I looked for the link in Nelosuutiset but could not find it. Sorry.

  1. JusticeDemon

    A competition may be open to all or restricted in any way that the organisers choose, subject to the regular conditions of the Penal Code. If the competition that you entered was an open competition, then there is no case to answer. If it is restricted to a certain geographical location, then you must show a relevant connection to that location as a condition of entry. These rules should be set out clearly in advance to avoid the offence of fraud on the part of the organiser.

    I suspect that what is really at stake in the debate over immigrant athletes and sportsmen is access to public subsidies based on merit. Perhaps to a lesser extent there is also the ability of professionals or semi-professionals to supplement their incomes with prize money. It will be interesting to see whether the value of grants, scholarships and prizes keeps pace with inflation when many or most of these benefits are won by immigrants (the same question applies to the wages of PSV drivers, hospital ancillary staff etc.).

  2. Observer

    Hi there.
    You can’t imagine how shocked I felt when I was watching the news that day on Nelonen, I could not believe it, then couple minutes after I decided to read it from the net on the channel’s website, and simply IT WAS NOT THERE.
    They said in the news that a foreigner without finnish citizenship cannot participate in the competition, Reason: Awards and price are just for finns, and foreigners should have own sponsors and the state cnnot afford any!
    This was a result of a long dispute between finland and sweden during their common athletic competition. sweden has had blamed finland for not granting the citizenship to its foreign athletics, and now finally the solution has came: CUT IT OFF 🙂

    • Enrique

      Hello Observer, I was just as outraged as you. It was one of the worst, biased and racist stories I have ever seen on Finnish television. They probably took it off the website because the those reasons.

  3. Observer

    Thank you Enrique,
    Actually, the media is the most things I hate in Finland, it doesn’t serve Finns neither Foreigners. I mean there are a lot of things out there to talk about, than to chase a minister who’s just sent a private text-message.

  4. DeTant Blomhat

    The bias of the media aside – I’d have a few offending remarks regarding.

    Basically the issue on sports is “nationalism”. So a country like Quatar would have fat sheikhs in djellabas competing? As it is against the sharia to expose body parts etc. So instead they “pay” or “accept” people to do their dirty job for them…

    Its basically the same question if there is a war. You have “ethnic army” as say the Vietnamese. And then you have the “mercenary army” say as the “Legion d’Etrangeres”. So did “France” lose in Dien Bien Phu, or was it actually the Germans?

    Kalevan Kisat is a “national” race, so if you are running to make a record of Finland you need to be a Finn.. otherwise they set that as done by a… Kenyan.

    The Finn-Swede “national match” was implemented in the days we did not have immigrants, so rightly it should be questioned then if its right to “hire” say Usain Bolt for the “Finnish team”?

    Sports are still “national” which is a bit funny, but should I dismiss Kruger or Kipre because of their ethnicity? Don’t think so.

  5. DeTant Blomhat

    Well – back to the original question, why not. Though they need the riot police there as the “friendly” matches between “immigrants” have ended up in riots only in football. They have the “ourvision” contest that actually does have a few talents – despite it being discriminating against minorities (established ones).

  6. Student

    You have misunderstood the debate. Lewis Korir does not have finnish citizenship, does not live in Finland and has never lived in Finland. His only connection to Finland is that the city of Turku hired him to represent them in athletic competitions.

    Kalevan kisat is the finnish championship competition and also immigrants (like Wilson Kirwa and Frantz Kruger) can participate without any debate. The debate here started because Lewis Korir is infact not an immigrant and has shown no interest in ever living in Finland or ever becomming a citizen or an immigrant.

    So as you can see there was nothing at all racist about this story.

  7. Tony Garcia

    Pardon me for sticking my nose in here, but I had a quite similar situation many years ago when I moved to Finland.

    I build scale models and when moved to Finland tried to join the Finnish branch of IPMS, a modelling club. I got one of the guys e-mail from their web page and dropped him a line telling my wish to join the club and giving my details.

    Next day the bloke called me, saying that legally I was entitle to join the club and they won’t prevent it however their wish was that the club would keep Finnish only. He told me that would be up to me apply or not.

    Well I saw three options.

    1. A Muslim option, go to the next police station and complain about discrimination. There was clearly no discrimination but that wouldn’t prevent a Muslim from doing so.

    2. A Muslim option, tell them there is THE LAW and they will have to accept me regardless they like it or not otherwise I’ll use THE LAW.

    For the people who knows me well from months posting in this blog I don’t have to say that I would never go for those 2 options, so I went for the third one.

    3. A reasonable immigrant option, I said OK than, I believe you have the right to keep it to yourself and I’ll respect it.

    I know that a small modelling club can’t be compared to a big sport competition, but what I want to show here is attitude.

    We can call the police and use THE LAW to impose ourselves whenever suits us, or we could be a bit reasonable and see that they also have some rights and they could keep something to themselves, or do we really need to be in everywhere?

  8. Tony Garcia

    Well talking about diversity, I wonder if the Finnish media has been reported the clashes between Chinese migrants and Algerians in the Algerian capital.

    Apparently the situation there has been bad and it’s deteriorating fast. What happen is quite simple Algerians don’t want Chinese in their country, pure and simple. That makes me think…

    Enrique these are the same people you say are so essential to help us the create a diverse society. Also they are the people you would find in the streets of London caring banners saying “proud of a multicultural Britain” or perhaps “I celebrate diversity”.

    However it’s interesting to see that these very same people have a quite different approach to those concepts when they are no longer a minority.

    Interesting, isn’t?

  9. Tony Garcia

    “A RACIST PAKI? SURELY NOT

    Sometimes a story comes along that simply brightens your day and gives your whole spirit a lift. That story appeared yesterday with the news of a furious race row at a cricket match.

    You wouldn’t normally expect a race riot at a cricket match between Dunfermline and Arbroath but a war of words has broken out after an ill tempered match between the two teams, with the Arbroath coach accusing the largely Pakistani and Indian Dunfermline players of calling one of the opposition “A f***ing ginger twat.”

    You see — we all have so much more to unite us than divide us: a fear and loathing of gingers.

    Well, at least they’re useful for something …”

    By Ian O’Doherty.

  10. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    Next day the bloke called me, saying that legally I was entitle to join the club and they won’t prevent it however their wish was that the club would keep Finnish only. He told me that would be up to me apply or not.

    Did you find out whether this was the view of the entire club or just the view of one member?

    • Enrique

      –Did you find out whether this was the view of the entire club or just the view of one member?

      This is the good question. If somebody would discriminate because of my national background, it would not be the “Muslim” option as you claim, but MY option. In the United States I learned that one must face such injustices head on. You cannot be nice to it nor will it go away if you behave like a gentleman. What is wrong with going to the police and reporting a crime such as racism? I see it as a right — not as something odd.

  11. Tony Garcia

    “What is wrong with going to the police and reporting a crime such as racism?”

    Crime? With crime? One again you didn’t read properly what I wrote or are trying to twist my words. Nobody refused my application, the guy only said their wish but he was very clear to me as much as I was very clear in this blog, the decision to apply would be my and the application would be accepted. I decided to respect it, pure and simple. Should I than be arrested for betraying the immigrant cause?

    What I said was…

    “…saying that legally I was entitle to join the club and they won’t prevent it however their wish was that the club would keep Finnish only. He told me that would be up to me apply or not.”

    Isn’t that clear?

    Also the Muslim option was very well explained, and again very well twisted. Reporting discrimination that didn’t exist.

    Again I said…

    “A Muslim option, go to the next police station and complain about discrimination. There was clearly no discrimination…”

    Is my English that bad?

    • Enrique

      –Also the Muslim option was very well explained, and again very well twisted. Reporting discrimination that didn’t exist.

      Amigo Tony, if we live in a modern western democratic society, how can it be possible that we do not react if a person wanted the club to only comprise of Finnish members. We do not react for our own sake but that of our children. You know very well my views on racism and one must be proactive in this sense.

      I am surprised that you always use the Muslims as an example of crying wolf when it comes to racism. I am sorry, Tony, but it sounds like the argument about raping women; eg she was raped because she wore a miniskirt and therefore it was not the rapist fault. In all cases there are people that abuse the law. However, racism, like a social ill and crime condemned by sensible people in our society, should be faced head on.

      If the blacks in the United States in the 1950s and 1960s would have accepted the racism they were victim to, things would have never changed.

  12. JusticeDemon

    I noticed that you didn’t respond to my question, Tony.

    Obviously club membership was obviously not especially important to you in this instance. Being excluded from an agricultural co-operative, trade union or professional association, on the other hand, would affect your livelihood. Would you simply walk away if one member of these entirely voluntary organisations said that the club wanted to remain Finnish? If so, then you are part of the problem.

    Incidentally you are wrong in saying that there was clearly no discrimination. There was a difference of treatment in the attitude to new members that was communicated to you and to others, and that difference of treatment was based on your national origin. The purpose of the treatment was to discourage you from exercising your rights. Any impediment to the exercise of a right is by definition a curtailment of that right.

    The extent to which the club could be held liable for the conduct of an individual member in that case is debatable, but there is no question that a “minorities not welcome” policy is discrimination.

    More interesting is the case of a tourist shop in northern Sweden with the following sign on the wall:

    Välkommen!
    Velkommen!
    Welcome!
    Myymälävarkaudet ilmoitetaan!

  13. Observer

    This is for you Tony, a report commissioned by the European Community detailing how Muslims in Europe feel about possible integration and the discrimination and hostility they face in their day-to-day lives:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/18_12_06perceptioneu.pdf

    About raping, the statistics has shown that the top rapers in Finland are Finnish and Estonian, actually you can find this between HS pages!
    The report tells that majority of Muslims in entire Europe are good citizens, and far more better than some locals, did you get it?
    I mean the war on terror has already ended, and being brainwashed person is the only thing what I see in front of me.

    • Enrique

      Hi Observer, thank you for sharing the 68-page report on Islamophobia with us. I will take the time to acquaint myself better with it. I recommend others to do the same.

  14. Tony Garcia

    Dear Observer…

    First things first, I don’t know when you started to follow this blog, but I have been writing here for months and I never denied racism, how could I, I’ve faced myself a score of times. However my point was always very clear, racism is not a disease but a symptom of it. IMHO the biggest cause of racism is multiculturalism, at least in the way it has been implemented in Europe. Enrique always says how it works well in Canada, very well I know nothing about Canada and I believe him, however it has been a failure here Europe. In my opinion, with may differs to yours, multiculturalism is the disease not racism.

    That being said I have no problem in believe in this report, however what is triggering such waive of attitudes again these people? Why are they so good in piss everyone off? Why every time they move to an area the locals move away? Hard questions must be answered if we really want to solve the problem mate.

    About rape, you are right, but how big is the Muslim community in Finland? How much of the rapping in Finland is forced sex and how much is ambush/gang rape? How about Norway? I already posted here an official report showing that 100% of ambush/gang rape in there is committed by muslins. Sweden is not different, just probably worse.

    About the “reasons” behind it, once again Enrique blames me for what I haven’t said. The “Muslims rape is white’s fault” theory has been defended by Imams not me. THEY are saying that not I.

    So the war on terror has ended? Really? Well that’s good news, so you should spread the news around because the British intelligence is reporting a growing number of Taliban fighters with Yorkshire accent, they estimate that thousands have gone to Afghanistan to fight. So you could say to those people who has been enjoying the generosity of British tax payers not to go there and kill British soldiers. Will you?

    And just to illustrate what I’m saying a CBN report showing what happen to the place when Muslims are no longer a tiny minority. Enjoy…

    • Enrique

      Amigo Tony, thank you for posting this. However, the CBN is the Christian Broadcasting Network, appears to have a clear editorial line on Muslims. While all publications are tainted by a certain ideology, some are try to bring the news out in a more “objective” fashion. By objective I mean that they DO NOT editorialize in a news story and give ample coverage to all sides that the news is about. If we want to editorialize then we can do so in an editorial, column etc. The story, in my humble opinion, would need reaction/comments Muslims and Israeli/Jewish representative. The protests were not only spearheaded by Muslims. There were also “left-wingers, anarchists” etc…

  15. Tony Garcia

    Amigo Enrique,

    “how can it be possible that we do not react if a person wanted the club to only comprise of Finnish members”

    It can, I did, and I have no regrets about it…

    “We do not react for our own sake but that of our children.”

    Well my children has no problem in Finland, whatsoever. They are 100% Finns in appearance and behavior, although their blood is only 1/3 Finn. I’m 100% proud of it and you know that. What is jeopardizing their future is the 5000 asylum seekers expected to come this year.

    “You know very well my views on racism and one must be proactive in this sense.”

    Yes I do, and I also remember telling you about the Somali father who told me will teach their children to hate Finnish people as longer he leaves (enjoying the dole, of course) and you told me that we should understands motives and probably isn’t his fault. So different approaches depending from where the racism comes from?

    US is a good example, in the 50’s blacks wouldn’t go to areas dominate by whites. Today this is longer gone alright. However today whites don’t go to areas dominated by blacks. Yep it did change but what kind of change? The victims of racism have no problem in exercise it when possible…

  16. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    However my point was always very clear, racism is not a disease but a symptom of it. IMHO the biggest cause of racism is multiculturalism…

    This is a misunderstanding of the word racism that confuses prejudice and discrimination.

    Racism is a pattern of thinking that segregates individuals into more or less discrete classes based on their broadly heritable, readily discernible, but arbitrarily selected features, and then assigns characteristics or abilities to all members of each class, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another such class. There is famously no scientific basis for these classes: two individuals who are assigned to different classes on the basis of superficial differences in appearance may turn out to be biologically more similar to one another than they are to other members of the class to which they have been assigned.

    This pattern of thinking can, and often does arise precisely in communities that have only minimal direct contact with these other classes.

    It is only through such direct contact that the opportunity for racial discrimination can arise. From this it follows that an absence of racial discrimination does not mean an absence of racism. People may harbour racist views, but never have an opportunity to practice racial discrimination in their treatment of others. They may also be quite unaware of their own racism. To argue that there is no racism where there is no opportunity for discrimination to occur is a little like arguing that there are no flammable materials on the lunar surface simply because nothing burns there.

    On the other hand, people may be aware of their own racism, but may exercise particular care to ensure that they do not express this by discriminating.

    The grosser forms of racism tend to disappear when there is increased contact with the alleged “other class” (professional sport is the best known example), but subtler forms of racism may persist through selective perception that views negative aspects of individual behaviour as typical of a class and positive aspects as exceptional features of the individual. Thus my best Finnish friend maybe an extrovert, outgoing, warm person, but he is an exception to the main characterisation of Finns in general as people who look at their own feet when talking and become violent after a couple of drinks.

    If I allow this characterisation to influence my decision on who to hire in my business or who to admit to my restaurant, then I am guilty of racial discrimination.

  17. JusticeDemon

    Once again messed up the blockquote. Try again:

    ***

    Tony

    However my point was always very clear, racism is not a disease but a symptom of it. IMHO the biggest cause of racism is multiculturalism…

    This is a misunderstanding of the word racism that confuses prejudice and discrimination.

    Racism is a pattern of thinking that segregates individuals into more or less discrete classes based on their broadly heritable, readily discernible, but arbitrarily selected features, and then assigns characteristics or abilities to all members of each class, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another such class. There is famously no scientific basis for these classes: two individuals who are assigned to different classes on the basis of superficial differences in appearance may turn out to be biologically more similar to one another than they are to other members of the class to which they have been assigned.

    This pattern of thinking can, and often does arise precisely in communities that have only minimal direct contact with these other classes.

    It is only through such direct contact that the opportunity for racial discrimination can arise. From this it follows that an absence of racial discrimination does not mean an absence of racism. People may harbour racist views, but never have an opportunity to practice racial discrimination in their treatment of others. They may also be quite unaware of their own racism. To argue that there is no racism where there is no opportunity for discrimination to occur is a little like arguing that there are no flammable materials on the lunar surface simply because nothing burns there.

    On the other hand, people may be aware of their own racism, but may exercise particular care to ensure that they do not express this by discriminating.

    The grosser forms of racism tend to disappear when there is increased contact with the alleged “other class” (professional sport is the best known example), but subtler forms of racism may persist through selective perception that views negative aspects of individual behaviour as typical of a class and positive aspects as exceptional features of the individual. Thus my best Finnish friend maybe an extrovert, outgoing, warm person, but he is an exception to the main characterisation of Finns in general as people who look at their own feet when talking and become violent after a couple of drinks.

    If I allow this characterisation to influence my decision on who to hire in my business or who to admit to my restaurant, then I am guilty of racial discrimination.

  18. Tony Garcia

    Amigo Enrique, I hope you had a nice weekend.

    Meu amigo you never stop amazing me. If I had a business I’d offer you a job as head of public relations.

    “There were also ‘left-wingers, anarchists’”

    There were indeed…

    • Enrique

      Amigo Tony, I hope you had a nice weekend as well. And thank you for the job offer.

  19. Tony Garcia

    http://www.thelocal.se/21214/20090810/

    “More than ten cars were set alight in a series of arson attacks across Malmo on Sunday night.”

    I wonder how we could spin this…

    Media fabrication.
    Mass hallucination.
    New Swedish national sport.
    George Bush done it.
    Alien attack.
    A very, very, very, very hot night.

    Como mates, someone give a help here…

  20. Jonas

    Regarding the films on Malmö, it is worth reading the other side of the story:
    http://www.expressen.se/1.154864
    It is sad that the second YouTube clip (ripped from Gomorron Sverige) cuts off directly before they discuss the reaction in Sweden to the Fox News film.

    And as for the first film of ‘CBN’, it’s hard to take seriously any film which relies so much on an interview with a member of Sverigedemokraterna, a racist ultra-nationalist party. Shocking that the present him as a serious character without no explanation of who he represents.

  21. Tiwaz

    -“# Observer Says:
    August 8, 2009 at 10:48 am

    This is for you Tony, a report commissioned by the European Community detailing how Muslims in Europe feel about possible integration and the discrimination and hostility they face in their day-to-day lives:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/18_12_06perceptioneu.pdf

    This is again nearly 0-value research, same as study where they asked Somali about them being victims of racism.

    There is woeful lack of objective confirmation of results. This is just PERCEPTIONS of Muslims which is taken as Holy Truth.

    And again in this “study” they say that natives must yield and appease Muslims. “Remove barriers”.

    I once again ask, WHERE IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF ISLAMIC SOCIETY TO ADJUST TO SOCIETY WHERE THEY HAVE MOVED TO?

    Or do they have no responsibilities? Only rights and privileges.

    So it appears if we ask humanists of “elite” of Europe, few of whom has to suffer from multicultural societies failure.

    “About raping, the statistics has shown that the top rapers in Finland are Finnish and Estonian, actually you can find this between HS pages!
    The report tells that majority of Muslims in entire Europe are good citizens, and far more better than some locals, did you get it?
    I mean the war on terror has already ended, and being brainwashed person is the only thing what I see in front of me.”

    Yes, statistics on ABSOLUTE numbers.

    Which is hardly surprising considering Finns form over 90% of population.

    But muslims are estimated to be around 40 000 people. Immigrants in general less than 5% of population. And out of this group immigrants from areas with Islamic culture smaller section.

    Yet, both groups (muslims and immigrants originating from Islamic areas) show up well in rape statistics. Very well indeed, to point that in some areas people of Islamic origin get to double digits in percentage.

    Great achievement for group which is hard pressed to get to single digit in percentage of total population.

    • Enrique

      –And again in this “study” they say that natives must yield and appease Muslims. “Remove barriers”. I once again ask, WHERE IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF ISLAMIC SOCIETY TO ADJUST TO SOCIETY WHERE THEY HAVE MOVED TO?

      Isn’t the recommendation a valid one? Do you think by removing barriers we would encourage integration? If we do not do so, we are creating a two-tier society where our values are not uniform. How can a society speak of being noble if it treats some minorities with distrust and prejudice? And, don’t you think that by removing those barriers we are giving them a chance. I believe some of you are too harsh on Muslims. It is a bit like being against the blacks in the US during the 1950s, and stating that ALL Roma are a bunch of crooks in the 1960s. In all cultures there are all types. Is it our fear that sees groups as one?

  22. Tiwaz

    -“Isn’t the recommendation a valid one? Do you think by removing barriers we would encourage integration?”

    No, it is not valid one because it again puts blame on natives. Those who have generations of history living in the country, those who are raised and live according to it’s culture.

    This “recommendation” denies NATIVES their right to have their culture and way of life.

    Our society just does NOT include things like hijab and scarf to cover your whole head. Nor does it include methods of butcher which involve animal cruelty (halal meat).

    Or many other things common in other cultures. If we start reducing our cultural norms so that immigrants feel more at home… Where do we end up? Where are Finns if there is no longer concept of Finn?

    Not to mention that there will be no integration if there is no need to integrate. If all barriers are just made away when immigrants run into them, through positive discrimination or other method, why would they integrate?

    “If we do not do so, we are creating a two-tier society where our values are not uniform.”

    Have you noticed that multicultural societies are precisely like that? There is no unity or uniform values because everyone clings to their cultural norms and values and refuses to accept one common set of rules.

    There is already one common set of rules in Finland, Finnish rules. In Sweden, Swedish. In Denmark, Danish. And so forth. Immigrants should just familiarize themselves to these rules and adjust their own way of life to them.

    Because demanding natives to change their way of life is not going to work.

    “How can a society speak of being noble if it treats some minorities with distrust and prejudice?”

    Trust is to be earned. Have you noticed that those minorities which are treated with distrust and prejudice are ones who fail to adjust to society and fail to earn trust?

    Somali etc.. They did not start out with all the distrust they have aimed at them now, it is the actions of those who came first and failed to adjust and failed to earn respect who caused current issue.

    And when speaking of loss of trust, only way to gain it is to show that you deserve it through deeds. That means that minority communities who do have issues of being distrusted have to start cleaning their house and show that they really, really want to live in Finland as it is as equals.

    Not demand preferential treatment or turn it into little Somalia/Kurdistan/Venezuela.

    “And, don’t you think that by removing those barriers we are giving them a chance. I believe some of you are too harsh on Muslims.”

    I am not too harsh. I believe society is too soft on them. I know muslisms, have even had some as friends (moved away long time ago so contact was eventually lost).

    Not to mention that I have absolutely nothing against Tatars, who are also muslims.

    Problem is twofold when put simply.

    First, confrontation. For example most Asian cultures are conformist. Because of this, they adjust to conditions where they move to. And thus there are hardly any issues with Asian immigrants.

    Muslim cultures by and large are confrontational. The do not do adjusting, they just try to force their way no matter what. Not all Muslims, of course, but so large amount of them that it raises lots of issues.

    Second, cultural gap. All foreigners will have issues in Finland. This is because our culture is very unique and thus there practically always gap. There is no relationships like for example between Commonwealth nations which would reduce the gap.

    But, in case of Islamic cultures, this gap is wider than for any western society. Because of this, western immigrants tend to adjust reasonably well and reasonably easily to Finland.

    Because of this combination, wider cultural gap and confrontational cultural traditions Muslim immigrants are the least compatible to life in Finland and thus tend to be greatest source of problems.

    This issue is not solved by demanding natives to adjust to Muslims, nor is it solved by trying to pamper these immigrants.

    To put it crudely, best solution would be to point at Tatar community and tell Islamic immigrants to copy their way of life to find out how to be Muslim in Finland.

    “It is a bit like being against the blacks in the US during the 1950s, and stating that ALL Roma are a bunch of crooks in the 1960s. In all cultures there are all types. Is it our fear that sees groups as one?”

    No, it is fact that Roma are disproportionately crooks.

    You cannot magically wish away the facts from statistics by trying to say that they are individuals.
    Yes, they are individuals, and in the group formed by those individuals there are disproportionate amount of crooks.

    So, there must be something wrong in the group which causes disproportionate amount of troublemakers.

    We see them as group because they are group.

  23. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    Our society just does NOT include things like hijab and scarf to cover your whole head.

    Demonstrating your Stalinism again, Tiwaz

    Clearly you cannot tolerate any degree of diversity, defined as anything that deviates from a preconceived notion of normality dating from the time when she was really alive, and before the midlife crisis set in.

    This whole free society, freedom, tyranny of the majority thing is a bit of a mystery to you, isn’t it? Why shouldn’t every single person have to defer to their neighbours on every single issue? Why shouldn’t the colour of your front door be decided by a referendum of the entire country? If you want a new hat, why should you have the right to wear it without seeking every other person’s opinion? Perhaps because in a modern liberal democracy these private decisions are none of anyone else’s damned business. Perhaps because in a free country people are left to get on with what they want to do in private.

    Your attitude is pathological, Tiwaz. It has nothing to do with reason, so there is no point in reasoning with you.

  24. JusticeDemon

    If we do not do so, we are creating a two-tier society where our values are not uniform.

    Have you noticed that multicultural societies are precisely like that? There is no unity or uniform values because everyone clings to their cultural norms and values and refuses to accept one common set of rules.

    Have YOU noticed how you just slipped from values into rules without skipping a beat, Tiwaz?

    There is your Stalinist pathology, right there.

    Are values and rules the same thing to you, Tiwaz?

  25. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    Somali etc.. They did not start out with all the distrust they have aimed at them now, it is the actions of those who came first and failed to adjust and failed to earn respect who caused current issue.

    Are you old enough to remember how they started out Tiwaz? Can you guess the date of the following letter published on the Opinions page of Helsingin Sanomat?

    Eikö rajoilla ole mitään merkitystä?

    Suomalaisilla ei ole mitään vastaansanomista siinä, että viranomaiset ottavat tänne ns. kiintiöpakolaisia sen verran kuin pystymme ongelmitta hoitamaan.

    Somalien maahantulosta noussut kohu on aivan eri asia. Ihmettelemme lähinnä sitä, onko laillisilla passeilla, viisumeilla ja rajamuodollisuuksilla käytännössä mitään merkitystä, kun Neuvostoliiton rajalla eivät mitkään kansainväliset pelisäännöt näytä pätevän.

    Kehitysmaiden ihmisillä ei ole vapaata maahantulo-oikeutta yhteenkään teollistuneeseen maahan. Jos olisi, seurauksena olisi täysi kaaos. Toki kolmannen maailman ihmiset tulevat mieluummin nauttimaan länsimaista sosiaaliturvaa kuin kuolevat nälkään ja sisällissotien melskeisiin, jos liikkuminen kerran on täysin vapaata niin kuin somaleilla näyttää olevan ja väärennetyt passit ja viisumit kelpaavat siinä missä aidotkin.

    YK:n pakolaisavun budjetti on kaksi miljardia markkaa. Suunnilleen sama summa on Suomeen tulleitten somalien asuttamisen ja täysihoidon hinta. Tyhmimmänkin idealistin on käsitettävä, ettei 15 miljoonan pakolaisen ongelmaa voida näin ratkaista. Suurimman osan on pysyttävä pakolaisleireillä, sillä lisää tulijoita on niillekin koko ajan. Eurooppalaista elintasoa ei voida kaikille halukkaille millään järjestää.

    Realisti

    Helsinki

    If you CAN date that letter accurately, then perhaps you would like to present a more honest view, instead of claiming that Somalis in Finland were given an opportunity to earn the trust of noxious racists like you.

  26. Tiwaz

    So, JD, HAVE you ever worked in honest job for a single day? It appears you have not. Just being humanist, spewing useless ideology and pretending to be competent to make psychoanalysis on others through Internet.

    Or more precisely, pathetically attempting some sort of ad hominem attack by pretending you can “analyze” me and add your “pathlogical” crap to it.

    Let’s start shooting down your BS.

    “This whole free society, freedom, tyranny of the majority thing is a bit of a mystery to you, isn’t it? Why shouldn’t every single person have to defer to their neighbours on every single issue? Why shouldn’t the colour of your front door be decided by a referendum of the entire country? If you want a new hat, why should you have the right to wear it without seeking every other person’s opinion? Perhaps because in a modern liberal democracy these private decisions are none of anyone else’s damned business. Perhaps because in a free country people are left to get on with what they want to do in private.”

    Funny you speak of freedom. Those potato sacks and veils are precisely OPPOSITE of freedom. Women are never given chance to choose where they are the norm. You either wear it or… Bad things happen.

    And you say that in name of freedom we must accept to our free community this absence of freedom.

    Perhaps you have not figured out but Finns are by and large happy to leave immigrants in their privacy, assuming immigrants do not start causing trouble.

    Alas, THEY DO! Like famous Australian Imam and his speech of how we cannot blame Muslim men for raping the “uncovered meat”.

    These immigrants refuse to keep their private world private, they want to twist their surroundings into same oppressive regime their homes are so famous of.

    And your solution to this is not to get “confrontational”. Appeaser speaketh!

    What do you do if your opponent insists on being confrontational? I guess you just apologize for being you and appease more.

    “Have YOU noticed how you just slipped from values into rules without skipping a beat, Tiwaz?

    There is your Stalinist pathology, right there.

    Are values and rules the same thing to you, Tiwaz?”

    Do you see how you slipped from bullshit to more bullshit in your pathetic attempt to pretend that you are so well versed in psychology.

    Like I said, leave it to people who are competent and actually try to defend your position instead of trying to derail discussion into irrelevancies.

    And is your best example single letter in opinions section of HS?
    What did those Somalis do to try to earn trust? Did they work hard to learn local language and culture? Try to learn how to live in Finnish society without conflicting with it’s ways?

    Or did they just lay back and enjoy the dole…

  27. JusticeDemon

    HAVE you ever worked in honest job for a single day? It appears you have not. Just being humanist, spewing useless ideology and pretending to be competent to make psychoanalysis on others through Internet.

    Yes, I have, and Ricky can confirm this.

    Funny you speak of freedom. Those potato sacks and veils are precisely OPPOSITE of freedom. Women are never given chance to choose where they are the norm. You either wear it or… Bad things happen.

    Tiwaz:

    Where did I say that women are prevented from wearing anything they want? In fact, it is one of FREEDOMS Finland offers.

    Make your mind up, Tiwaz. Do you have any moslem friends who wear hijab? I have several. How many of your hijab-wearing moslem friends are forced into their fashion choices? None of my friends were forced, but all freely chose to wear hijab. What specific experience of Finland are you referring to, and what would make this in any way the norm in Finland?

    You have no such experience. Your ravings are pure fascist prejudice.

    Like famous Australian Imam and his speech of how we cannot blame Muslim men for raping the “uncovered meat”.

    You have to go all the way to Australia to find some wingnut that you can somehow quote as representative of Islam in Finland? No doubt there are racists in Australia who quote you as a comparable authority on the views of ordinary Finns, whereas we all know you are just another fascist wingnut with at most 5 per cent political support on this single-issue obsession.

    What do you do if your opponent insists on being confrontational?

    I don’t begin by assuming that anyone is an opponent, but when confrontation occurs I try to understand its source and reach some mutually beneficial accommodation.

    Thus, if my nextdoor neighbour works the night shift, I don’t use a noisy lawnmower in the middle of the day. I find out what my neighbour’s sleeping hours are, and I try to adjust my gardening times to avoid causing undue distress. I also choose a quieter electric model when the time comes to get a new lawnmower. None of this is my legal duty, but I do it anyway because my neighbour’s welfare matters to me.

    In this respect I am not mean-spirited like you, merely assuming that I can do as I please and the disturbance to my neighbour is something that my neighbour must accommodate alone.

    Have YOU noticed how you just slipped from values into rules without skipping a beat, Tiwaz?

    There is your Stalinist pathology, right there.

    Are values and rules the same thing to you, Tiwaz?

    Do you see how you slipped from bullshit to more bullshit in your pathetic attempt to pretend that you are so well versed in psychology.

    Like I said, leave it to people who are competent and actually try to defend your position instead of trying to derail discussion into irrelevancies.

    Answer the question. Are values and rules the same thing?

    You always give yourself away when a question has cut you by lapsing into profanity. Answer the question. I strongly suspect that you cannot see the difference between values and rules, but I would be delighted to be proven wrong.

    And is your best example single letter in opinions section of HS?

    I simply did a keyword search of the HS archives from 1990, around the time when the civil unrest began in Somalia and asylum seekers began arriving in Finland. That letter was published on 19 December 1990 and it clearly gives the lie to your assertion, which was this:

    They did not start out with all the distrust they have aimed at them now, it is the actions of those who came first and failed to adjust and failed to earn respect who caused current issue.

    The plain fact is that anti-Somali prejudice was already very clear when the first asylum seekers arrived. I recall that period very vividly indeed. Most of the general invective was in the evening papers and other gutter press, of course, but at least some of this prejudice was expressed in HS as well.

    • Enrique

      –Yes, I have, and Ricky can confirm this.

      Tiwaz, JusticeDemon is a hard-working person who has survived on his language skills. It is unfair to say that he has never done an honest job for a single day. How can you accuse him of that if you have a comfortable gravy-train job. Do you work for the public sector? Do you get paid vacations?

  28. Tony Garcia

    And talking about report, I just came across a interesting one…

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

    “n 2005, offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites“

    As far as I know blacks represent something about 12% of American population, but yet are responsible for 52% of all homicides. Nice bunch…

    But hey, this report is from the US department of justice, so probably biased, fabricated, racist, xenophobic, “Bush has done it” type of report…

  29. intternetnetsi

    “The plain fact is that anti-Somali prejudice was already very clear when the first asylum seekers arrived. I recall that period very vividly indeed.”

    Yeah, those jolly good fellows of siad barre… they couldnt get financial support in ussr anymore so they decided to come here and destroyed their papers while they came here… Sure we should have trusted them…

    All those people who lie who they are and some even admit that they come here because they heard theyll get disco money in here… Orphans whom parents and 10 siblings suprisingly emerge when residence permit is in hand…
    Even our retarted immigration minister said that money exhange rates affect to where “refugees” go, poor people only seeking refugee…
    Not to mention their attidute…
    Yes, again 90% ruin reputation of all…

    “The grosser forms of racism tend to disappear when there is increased contact with the alleged “other class” (professional sport is the best known example),”

    Is it.. Tell that to teams. Isnt it somekind institutional racism when you see in different sports differently colored people in top places… always…
    Wheres quotas for whites in NBA or running? And of course we need affirmitave action what lets us start bit early etc.
    And nothing disappears if others behave like you predicted..

  30. Tiwaz

    -“Make your mind up, Tiwaz. Do you have any moslem friends who wear hijab? I have several. How many of your hijab-wearing moslem friends are forced into their fashion choices? None of my friends were forced, but all freely chose to wear hijab. What specific experience of Finland are you referring to, and what would make this in any way the norm in Finland?

    You have no such experience. Your ravings are pure fascist prejudice.”

    And of course your friends would admit this even if they were. And perhaps few are not, but they still use them to segregate themselves from rest of community. To widen the gap between them and rest.

    You cannot tell how Muslim community is if you just speak with few friends. Reality is that like all segregated groups, they do not speak of internal issues with outsiders.

    Read more books, study more. Look at how Muslim communities work overall. They are the very opposite of freedom you preach.

    Familiarize yourself with things produced by for example Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who as muslim and woman has far better look at what Islam is behind the curtains.
    Or Ibn Warraq and other muslims who criticize Islam.

    -“You have to go all the way to Australia to find some wingnut that you can somehow quote as representative of Islam in Finland? No doubt there are racists in Australia who quote you as a comparable authority on the views of ordinary Finns, whereas we all know you are just another fascist wingnut with at most 5 per cent political support on this single-issue obsession.”

    Do you want examples closer by? Hell, go read on what Tony has posted time and time again in different threads here showing how Islamic mosques in Europe preach hate.

    Look the videos found here:
    http://www.bigpicweblog.com/exp/index.php/weblog/comments/the_british_should_shut_down_the_green_lane_mosque_and_raze_it_to_the_groun/

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014842.php

    I guess these are again falsifications.

    -“I don’t begin by assuming that anyone is an opponent, but when confrontation occurs I try to understand its source and reach some mutually beneficial accommodation.”

    So you appease. All one has to do is keep confronting you and you give in.

    That is very stupid position.

    -“Thus, if my nextdoor neighbour works the night shift, I don’t use a noisy lawnmower in the middle of the day. I find out what my neighbour’s sleeping hours are, and I try to adjust my gardening times to avoid causing undue distress. I also choose a quieter electric model when the time comes to get a new lawnmower. None of this is my legal duty, but I do it anyway because my neighbour’s welfare matters to me.”

    So what you do when your neighbor complains about you anyway? Says your children are too noisy, that you cooking in privacy of your apartment disturbs you?

    Hell, what if your neighbor is hardcore Muslim and demands that your wife must be covered head to toes? And if she refuses, she will receive thinly veiled threats?

    “In this respect I am not mean-spirited like you, merely assuming that I can do as I please and the disturbance to my neighbour is something that my neighbour must accommodate alone.”

    You clearly have no grasp of me.

    I get mean-spirited only when you or someone else intrudes my privacy. Tries to force your foreign ways to my life, my native land.

    This I do because I want to give my children and their children good, stable and reasonably safe nation to live in. Better start in life than I received, like my parents worked hard to give me better start in life. Like their parents and relatives even fought to keep us this land.

    My whole point can be crystallized into this.

    If you want to live in Finland, welcome. If you want to live like you would live in Somalia/(insert foreign country) stay/go THERE.

    “Answer the question. Are values and rules the same thing?

    You always give yourself away when a question has cut you by lapsing into profanity. Answer the question. I strongly suspect that you cannot see the difference between values and rules, but I would be delighted to be proven wrong.”

    Are there values without rules to protect them? Answer this question.

    -“I simply did a keyword search of the HS archives from 1990, around the time when the civil unrest began in Somalia and asylum seekers began arriving in Finland. That letter was published on 19 December 1990 and it clearly gives the lie to your assertion, which was this:”

    So you take one letter in newspaper as proof that Finns never gave Somalians a chance, but on opposite when confronted with evidence how minority groups are disproportionately represented in crime, from OFFICIAL sources, it is false because “they are individuals”.

    -“The plain fact is that anti-Somali prejudice was already very clear when the first asylum seekers arrived. I recall that period very vividly indeed. Most of the general invective was in the evening papers and other gutter press, of course, but at least some of this prejudice was expressed in HS as well.”

    Of this you have evidence of single text.

    Now, how have Somalians shown that they want to integrate to Finland?

    Have they worked hard to learn language and learn to work in Finnish society? Hmm?

    -“Tiwaz, JusticeDemon is a hard-working person who has survived on his language skills. It is unfair to say that he has never done an honest job for a single day. How can you accuse him of that if you have a comfortable gravy-train job. Do you work for the public sector? Do you get paid vacations?”

    It is equally unfair for him to call me fascist or try to pretend he can actually psychoanalyze me. Neither of you have any qualifications to make such claims of me so I would appriciate if you put sock in his mouth as well and I’ll in turn do not make such claims.

    For record, I work in private sector producing something for this country. Something tangible, well as tangible as software development is, but I PRODUCE things which for their small part help bring money to Finland (from foreign trade).

    Can you or Demon make same claim?

    • Enrique

      Tony, if you knew Mäenpää’s platform, would you consider it such a “victory for our children’s future?” And should not Mäenpää be thankful to the Muslim for bringing national attention through the media? In many countries there are extremists of all types. Sometimes the best thing to do is to let them simmer in their own hatred and poison.

    • Enrique

      Tony, I hope you are well. By the way, I could also report an article of a crime by a Finn and ask the same question.

  31. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, first let me apologise for not being clear enough on what I tried to say.

    This is the same case that when I celebrated Timo’s election. As I explained to you I celebrated not the fact that his got the place but the fact the people gave a wakeup call against this reckless immigration policy.

    The Maenpaa’s case is the same. What I celebrate is that he won’t be charged for his opinions, in particularly against Muslims (with for me is a plus). Political correctness has lost and freedom of speech has won. That’s what this is all about…

    You know very much my opinion about this. If he wants to go to national tv saying that Brazilians are all drug dealers scumbags I’ll be the first to fight for his right to do so without any hassle.

    I prefer to be insulted by someone who honestly says what he thinks than get a fake yellow smile because he has to.

    Respect must be earned, my friend, not imposed. And through my attitude in there I earned all respect I deserved, and even more.

    And about my children’s future. Their future is very secure even with the most ultra-right policy from the most ultra-right radical, and you know why.

    What threatens their future is the 5K seekers coming this year.

    • Enrique

      Hi Tony, that is fine. But Mäenpää is a sort of a pretty off-the-limb case. I agree that freedom of speech is one of the most important rights we have.
      Here is a link which shows that Mäenpää was fined for speaking in a demeaning fashion against immigrants and the Roma: http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/kotimaa.shtml/arkistot/kotimaa/2009/03/838403
      I tried to look for the original text in the latest ruling but could not find it.
      Going back to free speech… People can say many things that can insult other groups. However, good judgment should allow us to moderate our words so as not to create problems.

  32. De Tant Blomhat

    “By the way, I could also report an article of a crime by a Finn and ask the same question.”

    By the way, why do you not ask the question whether these unfortunates asking for asylum and living on our expense should be thankful that we take them in and give them comfort instead of being ungrateful rude and biting the hand that feeds them?

  33. De Tant Blomhat

    “You have to go all the way to Australia to find some wingnut that you can somehow quote as representative of Islam in Finland? ”

    Naah, we have Khodr Chebab and Abdullah Tammi.

  34. De Tant Blomhat

    Tony – IPMS? *When* was this? And where? And was it not then a language question? Because I’ve my share of kits on show and international contacts were a big thing back in the day before internet and webshops.

    Yeah – Justice Demon approach – you know pulling something like that is a way to make long lasting friends.

    Respect is earned – Justice Demon – you demand respect you get the opposite. I think you face all racism and discrimination because of your own attitude.

  35. De Tant Blomhat

    Oh, BTW gentlemen its been “kooks off the leash” week. Mäenpää was let off as was Seppo Lehto – the piece of news about a Tampere candidate being let off for uttering racist remarks. Of course hes in jail now for his other… ummm… colorful websites… so it would’ve been just a waste of money.

  36. De Tant Blomhat

    “But Mäenpää is a sort of a pretty off-the-limb case.”

    Enrique you forgot totally about the Aryan brother of Oulu… is he in the forest then even?

  37. Tony Garcia

    Hi Blomhat,

    So you are a fellow modeller, good to know. Next year we’ll be back to Finland and maybe you can deal with my IPMS application.

    I was trying to join the Tampere branch. I don’t really know where the guy was from, but as I said it wasn’t a big deal, my son was just born that time and I didn’t have much time anyway. In my opinion the guy was just having a bad day.

    I just wanted to illustrate 2 things, first is that a Somali would not miss this opportunity to make a huge wave about this, maybe even with HS help. Than those people keep asking why nobody like them… Why?

    Second I wanted to say that I think Finns have rights too… Yep I do… And because this I know that many “diverse” immigrants will curse me and called me a traitor, or perhaps part of the problem (as if I give a toss about it).

    If the “problem” is keep Finland a safe and nice place for our children I’m proud part of it.

    What disgust me is that a Somali or a bearded fighting for their “rights” is seeing as a step forward for a “better” country, but a Finn doing the same is xenophobia.

    “Respect is earned – Justice Demon – you demand respect you get the opposite.”

    Yep that’s what I keep saying however some people just can’t go that way, they need the “injustice” flag to blame others for their failure. This makes them sleep better at night…

  38. Tony Garcia

    “Of course hes in jail now for his other… ummm… colorful websites”

    I think Lehto sometimes goes a bit too far. However I totally disagree he has been charged for whatever he said. I think this is PC madness, and pandering to Islam.

    PS. his video about the “prophet” is quite good, I recommend…

  39. Tony Garcia

    “Naah, we have Khodr Chebab and Abdullah Tammi.”

    BTW isn’t Chebab the scumbag who believes Finland is a islamophobic country because it doesn’t allow 11 years old girls merry 70 years old men?

    And halla-aho has been charged just for point this out. Ludicrous…

    Well silly me, it’s not paedophilia if Muslims do…

    • Enrique

      Tony, I think any sensible person in our society would consider such a marriage as unacceptable. However, to paint is as part of a whole culture is wrong. What percentage of minors marry old men? In which countries does this happen?
      The other thing that bothers me is that I could take a picture of an old person living lonely in a senior citizens´home and ask the reader: This is how Westerners treated their aged parents.
      DeTant, the reason why it isn´t pedophelia is because it happens in a society where such marriages are accepted. The correct word for it is cultural relativism, or cultures determine what is right and wrong. Here is the big sticking point of cultures and where problems arise: we condemn others by seeing them through our values. The group does the same thing. So, as you can see, we have a situation in which neither side will budge.

  40. Tony Garcia

    “In which countries does this happen?”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7288952.stm

    “Figures showing hundreds of pupils from ethnic minorities have disappeared from school have sparked concerns many are being forced into marriages abroad…Management consultant Dr Nazia Khanum said if one assumed reporting levels in rape and domestic violence cases – at around 10-12% – were similar to reporting levels in forced marriages, it could be concluded that there were about 3,000 forced marriages a year in the UK.”

    The “enriched” one…

    “Here is the big sticking point of cultures and where problems arise: we condemn others by seeing them through our values”

    Nop the problem arise when they demand they should be allowed to practice this. Or did Aamulehti fabricate Chebab’s comments?

    “This is how Westerners treated their aged parents.”

    Many yes, Finnish in particularly. My wife sees her grandmother at the nursing home twice an year. And she is not the only one doing this in there… With all due respect to the Finns reading this I think this is very sad…

  41. DeTant

    Ah, enrique it was Tony actually who objected on the child marriage thing. I don’t really care what foreign people do in their own countries.

    But you are absolutely right it is cultural relativism. Which is why multiculturalism does not work and destroyes societies like imperialism does the natives.

    We have our rules in our country. They have their rules in their country. We cannot go to them to say what to do and they cannot come to us to say what to do. That is why there are different countries and cultures. Easy?

    So why is ist racism we say you cannot marry children in Finland. He has no respect as he is a child-molester. If I moved to his country and abandoned my elder relative I would have no respect. See that is exactly the point I have always had.

    You ask which countries… do you give money to UNICEF?
    http://www.stolenchildhood.net/images/child-marriage_98_50.jpg

    Or then you can go to UK
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1203434/Girl-15-forced-marry-illegal-immigrant-raped-assaulted-little-sister.html

    I rather being called a xenophobic racist than “respect” this kind of multiculturalism.

  42. intternetnetsi

    What if part of my culture is to come your house, eat your food and for thanks shit in your livingroom carpet?
    Of course you would be happy to be culturally enriched and understand that toilet and own food is only social construction…

    • Enrique

      –What if part of my culture is to come your house, eat your food and for thanks shit in your livingroom carpet?

      What can I say? These types of comment reveal more about your attitude about immigrants than anything else. If you really knew about the plight of immigrants and understood what it means to be a refugee, your words would be totally different. We are nice to people because it is the most effective way of avoiding strife. Why do you think some Finns are friendly to each other and treat the person with respect? There is an aim and such behavior provides a service to society.

  43. Tiwaz

    -“What can I say? These types of comment reveal more about your attitude about immigrants than anything else. If you really knew about the plight of immigrants and understood what it means to be a refugee, your words would be totally different. We are nice to people because it is the most effective way of avoiding strife. Why do you think some Finns are friendly to each other and treat the person with respect? There is an aim and such behavior provides a service to society.”

    You missed his point. To us Finns, to our society, these things like marrying children to middle aged old farts equals to shitting on our carpet. And plethora of other ways and traditions foreign cultures practice are same way offensive to us.

    But you say that in name of multiculturalism we must accept steaming piles of shit on our carpet.

    We strongly disagree. Here you do not shit on carpet. Period. Immigrant, refugee… I care not who comes to Finland.

    You…Do…Not…Shit…On…Carpet…

    If they want shelter in our country, they accept our rules. If they want to shit on carpet, they are free not to come here.

  44. DeTant Blomhat

    “What can I say? These types of comment reveal more about your attitude about immigrants than anything else.”

    I think it speaks more of the immigrants themselves. They are the ones who cause these attitudes by their own actions. People make their opinions after the fact, not because someone tells them stories.

    “If you really knew about the plight of immigrants and understood what it means to be a refugee, your words would be totally different.”

    We have heard their words. We know what we see with our own eyes. If I give beggar some money and he spits into my face do I give the next time this beggar money?

  45. Tony Garcia

    “If you really knew about the plight of immigrants and understood what it means to be a refugee, your words would be totally different.”

    Yep YLE was saying something about their “plight”…

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/08/refugee_centres_work_to_improve_relations_between_locals_and_asylum_seekers_924016.html

    Meanwhile in Rovaniemi, the situation deteriorated when a group of asylum seekers began harassing women in the city. According to youth director Anu Rastas, locals in Kemi were aggravated by the behaviour of some asylum seekers….It can be small things. One example is if an asylum seeker walks on the bicycle path and doesn’t allow others to pass.“

    • Enrique

      Amigo Tony, thank you for raising this sensitive issue.

      If I were critical, I would ask where does the YLE story base its findings? Certainly there will be conflicts in ANY country where you have a large mass of refugees. However, the interesting question is why is it a problem in a country like Finland where people have an opportunity to education and a good standard of living? The answer, I believe, is a simple yet general problem.
      Tony, we cannot generalize. But have you ever been to a refugee center? Have you met some of the people there? Isolation from all worlds is one of the characteristics of being a refugee. Some of these refugees are minors as well.

  46. DeTant Blomhat

    The answer – Enrique – is that these asylum seekers need to be taught what the values and manners of their hosts are. It is their own actions that cause these problems if they do things according to their own values and manners. That is the problem with your kind of multicultural approach. They are in Rovaniemi so they should do like the Rovaniemi people do. Its not the Finns who need to be “educated” or “open minded”, because then these people breaking the rules think it is OK to do so and continue until one day they cross over a line and then is a big conflict out of hand.

    • Enrique

      –The answer – Enrique – is that these asylum seekers need to be taught what the values and manners of their hosts are.

      I agree. There should be courses given to asylum seekers and immigrants to acquaint them to Finnish culture. However, as you know, this is sometimes not such an easy of a task as it appears. You cannot generalize since cultures are more complex than that. But general things would be good. Imagine if we were refugees and ended up as asylum seekers in Afghanistan and nobody would tell us anything about the local culture. We would be in pretty bad shape.

  47. DeTant Blomhat

    BTW Enrique, how many real refugees getting an UNCHR refugee status did you meet? One? Illegal immigrants abusing the system as asylum shoppers are not “refugees”.

    • Enrique

      –BTW Enrique, how many real refugees getting an UNCHR refugee status did you meet? One?
      They were asylum seekers. As you know a refugee is a person who is being persecuted in his home country, which cannot offer him protection. So, if you are a Somali, there is a big chance that that person is a refugee taking into account that it is a failed state.

  48. intternetnetsi

    “However, the interesting question is why is it a problem in a country like Finland where people have an opportunity to education and a good standard of living? The answer, I believe, is a simple yet general problem.”

    So whats that simple yet general problem?

    “But have you ever been to a refugee center? Have you met some of the people there?”

    I dont know about tony but yes and yes to me and my relative worked in one.

    • Enrique

      –So whats that simple yet general problem?

      Our fear of the unknown and our inflated sense of nationalism.

      –I dont know about tony but yes and yes to me and my relative worked in one.

      Then you have first-hand experience, maybe.

  49. intternetnetsi

    “Our fear of the unknown and our inflated sense of nationalism. ”

    Well i can give your first hand experience, people were greeted like finns, treated like finns and people were mainly curious. When they behaved like bigs in field then people started to look them, suprise, like bigs in the field.

    When i visited there to give ride to home for my friend i was wearing my work gear and first what i heard “fix this yes?” “new tv yes?” “give money” and those apartments were almost destroyed in few months what they had been in there and then they whined that they live in destroyed places…
    If you shit in your carpet dont whine to us that there is shit in your carpet.

    Currently asulym seekers in rovaniemi harass girls from their area who are integrated and happy. or were happy. They treat those girls like worms because they dont wear muslim clothes. Not to mention that they arent that much more tolerant with local womans either, no muslim clothes = whore you can treat like you want.
    Then people wonder why locals are angry…

    So how your fear or nationalism make them behave like that?

    • Enrique

      Amigo Tony, that is a nice “note” to kick off the weekend. Thank you.
      Have a restful weekend as well.

  50. DeTant Blomhat

    “As you know a refugee is a person who is being persecuted in his home country, which cannot offer him protection.”

    A refugee is one that fill the UNCHR’s criteria. I am persecuted in Finland because of speeding. Its about as valid claim. Living in a crap country doesn’t qualify. Of course its natural to want to move elsewhere, but abusing the asylum system is another thing.

    Besides which – if they lived in a crap country and they made it into a crap country themselves – why should I “respect” or be “open minded”? I don’t want my country to become like theirs. Look at Denmark right now. Who is turning it into a crap country? Not the Danes.

  51. DeTant Blomhat

    “Imagine if we were refugees and ended up as asylum seekers in Afghanistan and nobody would tell us anything about the local culture. We would be in pretty bad shape.”

    Why, you would be prancing around yelling “Afghans are racists” and “you need to be open minded” and “we demand respect” and “multiculturalism”. And then you would wonder why the locals treated you badly. See its always the fault of the people living in their own country. Thats what I have learned from you.

    • Enrique

      –Why, you would be prancing around yelling “Afghans are racists” and “you need to be open minded” and “we demand respect” and “multiculturalism”. And then you would wonder why the locals treated you badly. See its always the fault of the people living in their own country. Thats what I have learned from you.

      Nah, DeTant, that would be the first step: understanding the culture. Then comes the difficult stuff: indifference, racism, suspicion… But it does not have to be this way always. There are people who don’t stoop to those levels. They are your first “native friends,” the one’s you will never forget.

  52. Tiwaz

    -Nah, DeTant, that would be the first step: understanding the culture. Then comes the difficult stuff: indifference, racism, suspicion… But it does not have to be this way always. There are people who don’t stoop to those levels. They are your first “native friends,” the one’s you will never forget.”

    Why are you treated with indifference? Because this is Finland! We respect PRIVACY and GOOD MANNERS (in Finnish context, not in hubbabubban context).

    You are treated with indifference because you have not indicated properly that you are in need of aid. If you do not do that, it is polite to leave you be.

    As for racism… You always speak of racism as if it was Finnish problem. It is IMMIGRANT problem. They are ones who fail to grasp how Finnish society works.

    If Finnish society expects you to perform A,B,C and D in that order to get F. If you decide to go along latin American style of D,g,A,Y and end up LATE in returning it. You fail. It is in your eyes racism, but in reality only racism is in immigrant who refuses to respect local requirements.

    Suspicion, what you call racism.. It is hugely result of immigrants failing to grasp simple thing. They are not at home anymore. Things are not like at home anymore.

    And it is THEIR task to learn to act like people act in Finland.

    If immigrants stopped at stooping to their racism, they would not be facing problems in Finland. Big problem in a way are people like you Enrique, you encourage this segregate activity and refusal to adjust to Finnish society by saying how they should hold on to their own ways. It is honestly stupid advice. If they feel need to give up their ways, it is because those ways do not work with Finnish society. They MUST give up those ways or they end up being failures.

    Some immigrants understand this. Asian immigrants by and large understand it and adjust to Finnish society.

    And behold! They find employment, they face very little of things you call “racism”.
    How is that possible? Is it because they look Finnish? No.
    Is it because their culture is like Finnish culture? No.

    It is because they understand that they must adjust.

    • Enrique

      –Why are you treated with indifference? Because this is Finland! We respect PRIVACY and GOOD MANNERS (in Finnish context, not in hubbabubban context).

      So, “good manners,” is insulting other cultures as you do?!

      –As for racism… You always speak of racism as if it was Finnish problem. It is IMMIGRANT problem. They are ones who fail to grasp how Finnish society works.

      I have never said that it is ONLY a Finnish problem. It happens from both sides. However, racism practiced by the dominant culture is many times more devastating to the victim. Why? Because that group hold the economic and political power in the country.

      –If immigrants stopped at stooping to their racism, they would not be facing problems in Finland.

      If you ask my opinion, more immigrants should start to be proactive and address this issue straight on. A social illness will not go away by sticking your head in the sand.

  53. Tony Garcia

    “But have you ever been to a refugee center? Have you met some of the people there?”

    Of course no to the first, and yes to the second. I already said here about the group of Africans I used to see every Sunday in church and whose liked to speak quite loudly how they hate every Finn in this country, at the same time enjoin all the generosity of the state.

    My declarations about them were met with the usual “well we need to understand…”.

    So don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about cause I do very well, as much as you do. The difference is that I don’t defend multiculturalism so I don’t have to keep finding ways to dismiss all reports/news/comments that criticises bad immigration.

    And talking about children…

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/08/illegal_immigrants_pay_big_to_be_smuggled_into_country_931331.html

    “Illegal immigrants may pay as much as 50,000 euros to be smuggled into Finland, reports the newspaper Turun Sanomat. The National Bureau of Investigation (NBI) believes that five to ten organized groups of human smugglers operate in the country.“

    My children don’t have 50 grand to spare, does yours?

    Anyway I’d like to know who can the Finns trust such a group who the first thing they do when coming here is break the law. After that they lie about their names, age, place they came from, family status, and reason for coming.

    Besides the usual ”well you know…” I don’t see any reason for the Finns, and I for that matter, to trust them.

    • Enrique

      Tony, my apologies if I made you feel that way. I am certain you have felt what it is like to be excluded as a Brazilian.

      –The difference is that I don’t defend multiculturalism

      So, what could replace it? You have stated that we should not change our constitution nor laws to do away with multiculturalism. In my opinion, one of the main characteristics of multiculturalism is defending minority as well as majority rights.

      –“Illegal immigrants may pay as much as 50,000 euros to be smuggled into Finland, reports the newspaper Turun Sanomat. The National Bureau of Investigation (NBI) believes that five to ten organized groups of human smugglers operate in the country.“

      Even though there is a thriving business, I wonder if people (how many??) pay such an amount. Isn´t it odd that the story first gives the impression that illegal immigrants pay 50,000 euros but later on down it says between 5,000-10,000 euros? Chalk up another example of “objective journalism.” Stories like these attempt to awaken anger and hatred. If I had 50,000 euros and came from China, why would I want to move to Finland?? Certainly such an amount of money would go a long way.

      Look at the “coyotes” in Mexico that take thousands of people across the border every day into the United States. I wonder how much they get paid? The law of supply and demand must work here as well.

  54. Tiwaz

    -“So, “good manners,” is insulting other cultures as you do?! ”

    Enrique, this is FINLAND. Here OUR cultural norms of proper behavior are ones that matter. Not those of any foreigner. If they feel all insulted about us living the way we have always lived in our country, it is their shame for not understanding that this is no longer hubbabubba-land.

    Foreigners are rude and insult us with their bad manners. They do not understand the value of shutting the fuck up.

    -“I have never said that it is ONLY a Finnish problem. It happens from both sides. However, racism practiced by the dominant culture is many times more devastating to the victim. Why? Because that group hold the economic and political power in the country.”

    Except racism practiced by minorities is far more devastating because it leads to majority of dominant culture to get really, really pissed off.

    Look at Finnish jews. Do they have serious racism issues? No. Why? They assimilated to society, they do not try to annoy rest of Finns with idiotic demands of others having to follow their tradition.
    Finnish tatars? Same story. They adjusted to Finland, adjusted their way of life to fit in Finnish society and behold! No racism issues.
    Sami? Same. Most Asian immigrants? Same.

    It is these racist minorities which are the problem, because they think they have right to demand things.

    -“If you ask my opinion, more immigrants should start to be proactive and address this issue straight on. A social illness will not go away by sticking your head in the sand.”

    Precisely. Right now politicians and media are hiding their head in sand. Immigrants, specially immigrants of certain cultural background, are not made understand that they have to adjust to Finnish conditions.

    It is rather stupid to expect that 5 million people have to change their life to appease maybe 20-30 thousand people.

    It is this minority which has to adjust to society preferred by the majority. Until immigrants get their head out of sand and understand that they have to change when they change country, there will be no progress made.

  55. intternetnetsi

    “Isn´t it odd that the story first gives the impression that illegal immigrants pay 50,000 euros but later on down it says between 5,000-10,000 euros?”

    So you dont understand what “as much” means? And they dont down it. Its clear to anyone with some brain function that normal fee is 5 to 10 grand but can be as high as 50 grand.

    “Stories like these attempt to awaken anger and hatred.”

    So every stories do that? What about stories about drunk drivers and home violence?

    • Enrique

      –So you dont understand what “as much” means? And they dont down it. Its clear to anyone with some brain function that normal fee is 5 to 10 grand but can be as high as 50 grand.

      Hannu, the 50,000 euro sum is an unsubstantiated exaggeration.

  56. intternetnetsi

    No its not, some pay as much as 50 000 to get in here. Not all but some.
    You show again you dont understand anything about mathemathics…

    If i say mercedes can cost 500 000 but mostly 40 000 do i exaggerate?

    • Enrique

      The 50,000-euro sum makes you feel good because you think people pay so much money to come here. I won’t believe it until I actually see something more substantial.

    • Enrique

      –So you accuse police and/or asulym seekers are liars?

      Did I say that?! As any critical journalist, I would question the information. For example, if we talk about a sum such as up to 50,000 euros, how many have paid such a sum. Just because we question something, or ask more information, does not mean we are accusing anyone of being “liars.”

  57. intternetnetsi

    “If I had 50,000 euros and came from China, why would I want to move to Finland??”

    Lets take example family. mother, father and 8 childrens.
    You get one “orphan” in and he gets permit because need of protection -> family suddenly found and reunion with expence of goverment.
    Free fully equipped apartment, clothes etc., healthcare and education for whole family + 2629,94e/month in cash.
    Do you really think they come in finland because of nice weather and work?
    Doesnt sound too bad deal for 50k… Handyman in boatwork could make that money easily in somalia.

    Chinese pay 8k to 13k so they can get here to make slave work..

    • Enrique

      Hannu, I don´t know where you get these figures… There is a small catch, however, in China you cannot have more than one child. Another important aspect is if the person is able to bring his family here and will be accepted in the first place. There is also the whole process of learning Finnish and becoming integrated in the system (culturally and linguistically). As you know, unemployment among the Chinese is one of the lowest in Finland (about 8% in 2008) among foreigners.

  58. Tony Garcia

    Well… you change Chinese by Iraqi, Afghan or Somali and there you have a good example…

    “China you cannot have more than one child”

    An Iraqi, Afghan or Somali can “find” 10 at very least. Plus relatives.

    “the person is able to bring his family here and will be accepted in the first place”

    Don’t worry, Yurpeen Court of Yooman Rites will takes care of this.

    “There is also the whole process of learning Finnish and becoming integrated in the system”

    Why bother?

    “As you know, unemployment among the Chinese is one of the lowest in Finland (about 8% in 2008) among foreigners.”

    Exactly, bad example, my is a bit more accurate.

    • Enrique

      –Well… you change Chinese by Iraqi, Afghan or Somali and there you have a good example…
      Tony, there aren´t that many immigrants in Finland. So this is a bit alarmist. And you miss the point, in my opinion. The fact that one leaves his country on his own will or because he/she has to already suggests something about the person. If he is an immigrant and leaves on his own will, he is ambitious because he wants to improve his life. Taking into account that some of these are ambitious, we throw away their forward-looking ambition and exchange it for Kela.
      I personally believe that racism is a big problem in Finland and in other countries in the EU. As mentioned, the whiter you are (physically and spiritually) the easier it is for you to integrate to the system. At the present rate and with the present attitudes, it will be very hard for “visible foreigners” to find a place in our society.
      Even though the Chinese are more visible, they seem to have adapted well to Finland. This is not, however, the case with the Vietnamese.

  59. intternetnetsi

    Sorry, forgot to say that example is of course social refugee shopper, i thought enrigue would understood since i said “permit because need of protection”.

    I just added amount that chinese cleaners pay to get in here, legally. And i thought enrigue would have looked MOT where they talked about this. Forgot to add Ps. in front of it.

  60. intternetnetsi

    “Even though the Chinese are more visible, they seem to have adapted well to Finland. This is not, however, the case with the Vietnamese.”

    Now again repeat after me. REFUGEE ISNT SAME THAN SOMEONE WHO COMES AFTER JOB. vietnamese do great in refugee section. And vietnamese are VALID REFUGEES. They were picked up by finnish goverment from refugee camps. Last 75pcs i found from 2004.

    Filosofian kandidaatti Liisa Kososen Helsingin yliopiston valtiotieteellisessä tiedekunnassa 25.10. tarkastettavasta väitöksestä ilmenee, että lapsina tai nuorina vuosina 1979 – 1991 Suomeen tulleista vietnamilaisista on valtaosa nuorena aikuisena löytänyt paikkansa: he voivat psyykkisesti hyvin, ovat töissä tai opiskelemassa ja suuri osa asuu parisuhteessa. Kaksitoista vuotta aikaisemmin, heidän ollessaan koululaisia, tilanne oli toisin: vietnamilaiset kokivat itsensä silloin yksinäisiksi, masentuneiksi ja ulkopuolisiksi verrattuna suomalaisiin.

    And about how vietnamese feel..

    Virolaisista vain 32 prosenttia oli kokenut syrjintää
    ulkomaalaistaustansa vuoksi. Venäläisten, suomalaisten, vietnamilaisten
    ja turkkilaisten joukossa oli lähes yhtä paljon syrjintää kokeneita
    kuin sitä kokemattomia. Eniten syrjintäkokemuksia oli somaleilla (68
    %) ja arabeilla (72 %).138

    and

    Eriarvoista kohtelua työtovereiden ja esimiesten asenteissa
    olivat kokeneet eniten somalialaiset ja vähiten vietnamilaiset työntekijät.

  61. Tiwaz

    -“Tony, there aren´t that many immigrants in Finland. So this is a bit alarmist.”

    But if people who want to import more of this enrichment to Finland have their way, it will not be so for long.

    “And you miss the point, in my opinion. The fact that one leaves his country on his own will or because he/she has to already suggests something about the person. If he is an immigrant and leaves on his own will, he is ambitious because he wants to improve his life. Taking into account that some of these are ambitious, we throw away their forward-looking ambition and exchange it for Kela.”

    Problem is, they want things to be “just like at home, only better”. But problem is, if it was “just like at home”, then it would be home and it would be crap place.

    If you leave your country for better life, you have to accept that in some way your native country and it’s system is a failure because you cannot have that better life there.

    Thus, no pining for what you left behind and instead accepting local system and culture as your own.

    “I personally believe that racism is a big problem in Finland and in other countries in the EU. As mentioned, the whiter you are (physically and spiritually) the easier it is for you to integrate to the system. At the present rate and with the present attitudes, it will be very hard for “visible foreigners” to find a place in our society.
    Even though the Chinese are more visible, they seem to have adapted well to Finland. This is not, however, the case with the Vietnamese.”

    As pointed out, Vietnamese are fitting in just fine. Along with Chinese.

    What you refuse to see is that fault in what you call “racism problem” lies firmly in the ranks of the immigrants. Those poor immigrants who face racism are ones who refuse to accept that they no longer are in their native country and refuse to adapt to society around them.

    Chinese and Vietnamese accept that they no longer are in China/Vietnam and adapt to local conditions. And they do just fine.

    They are clear proof that problem you present is not coming from Finland or Finns, but from immigrants themselves who refuse to accept that you can’t live in Finland like you would in Somalia or other hellhole.

    That, in turn, is THEIR problem. If it ever were to become OUR problem, then it would be too late to fix it in a nice way.

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