Racist sign in Finland

by , under All categories, Enrique

I was pretty surprised when I bumped into this sign at the Pieksämäki Railway Station in eastern Finland.  A sign like this in a country with a large Mexican or Mexican American population would create quite an outcry. Does the owner attract  more customers because they may share the same stereotypic views of foreigners in general and Mexicans in particular?

A racist ad of a "Mexican" at Pieksämäki Railway Station.

A racist ad of a "Mexican" at the Pieksämäki Railway Station.

Here is a commercial that was shown on US TV in the late-1960s that was banned for being racist.

If you compare the two, I would conclude that the one at the Pieksämäki Railway Station is far worse.

What would happen if a Mexican company planned to invest in Pieksämäki and saw the sign? If I were a Mexican, I would be outright insulted.

Just like the “Frito Bandito” commercial, the only aim of the sign is to reinforce a belief that certain national groups act in a certain way. Thus, as the sign suggests, Mexicans are poor because they do not have shoes, they lack teeth and appear to have sub-intelligence.

If any of the bloggers have similar ads to share with us, I would be most interested in publishing them.

  1. St. John

    Oh my god. What horrifying racism. And in Pieksämäki, a locality known for its large population of people of Mexican origin! This yet another typical sign of the racism in this country, comparable only to racial segregation and the apartheid. It is clear that we need an Anti-Racist Task force, funded by the Government, to patrol the streets and reports such vile thought-crimes.

    We shall overcome, brothers and sisters!

    I urge all Mexican-Finns in Pieksämäki to boycott this establishment. This massive loss of customers will surely force them to stop their evil, vile, horrifying racism.

  2. intternetnetsi

    I saw trolls dressed up as lapp, and it was sold as souvenir! (i bought one)
    I also see reindeers and four wind hat all over the places!
    I didnt own neither of those!
    Terrible racism, everyome should speak same language with same dialect and look same…

    You see racism i see funny caricature. Who is right?

    One of my friend laughed on that sign, she thought that was nice. And she is from mexico. ARRIBA!

  3. JusticeDemon

    A high degree of cultural sensitivity is required to appreciate the offence that can be given by caricatures of this kind, especially if one has never been on the receiving end.

    Quite why there are virtually no corresponding caricatures of Finnish people remains a mystery to me. We could have expected at least a few to emerge in neighbouring countries. Of course the Tsuhna have a certain reputation in Russia for their slowness of wit, the Norwegians occasionally tell jokes about Finnish males trapped together by bad winter weather in a remote log cabin, management by perkele is widely recognised as a great way to foster social cohesion, and everyone knows that a Finnish extrovert looks at your shoes and not his own when talking to you, but I don’t think I have ever seen these attitudes represented visually.

    I suppose the Finns are simply not important enough or interesting enough in the minds of their neighbours to be worthy of consistent visual caricature, but this does deny them the opportunity to empathise or to recognise that their own caricatures may give offence.

    • Enrique

      Hi Dereck, nice to hear your witty comments. You make an excellent point: the lack of cultural sensitivity. It must be an education thing — some have been tought differently and understand that stereotyping people to the extreme is not only offensive but in bad taste.

  4. intternetnetsi

    “Quite why there are virtually no corresponding caricatures of Finnish people remains a mystery to me.”

    Go back in your barrel please, no caricatures 😀

  5. Mateus

    Interesting. I just don’t know whether I consider this racism or not. For me it seems to be a matter of narrow-mindedness. But what can I do? “I’m just a humble Brazilian, live in a shanty town and play football all day long.”

    • Enrique

      Hi Mateus, it is nice to hear from you. I hope you are well. It is pretty interesting that these types of stereotypes of Mexicans were being fought in the courts in the late-1960s and, in a small town in eastern Finland, they appear with most people thinking nothing of it — except if you are a Mexican and from the north of the country. As you know, there are many similar problems in our region. The immigrants who came from Europe also brought their prejudices with them.

    • Enrique

      Hi Tony, I hope you are well. As you know, Ole is the biggest sports newspaper in Argentina. I listen often to Argentine radio stations and I am surprised by the stereotypes of women and other nationalities that one may find in the media. Argentina and Brazil have always been deadly rivals in sports and in the geopolitics of the region. As you, a person who has had the opportunity to travel and work in many countries, understands that nationalism is one of the evils of our modern world. If I were the editor of Ole, I would not approve of such a headline. However, I think the newspaper meant the Brazilian team not its black players.

  6. intternetnetsi

    “nationalism is one of the evils of our modern world.”

    Show better way and remember that humans arent computers. Most multicultural and accepting society in our generation was USSR http://home.cimo.fi/campus/1_2005/kolumni.html

    Second place goes to US where is currently apartheid.

    “It must be an education thing”

    You are stereotyping here or you want re-education camps like there was in siberia.

    • Enrique

      –Ihmisyyteen kuuluvat myös ennakkoluulot, pelko ja viha. Taistelu rasismia vastaan on vaikeaa taistelua ihmisyyttä vastaan moraalin avulla, poliittisen korrektiuden tuolla puolen.

      I disagree. I think it is the aim of any person who lives in a developed modern society is the ability to distinguish between stereotypes and hatred. Certainly one has the right to live this way, but if it affects other people then we have a problem. The Baltic States, unfortunately, are a poor example of “cultural harmony.” In many cases, they are doing the same things that the Russians did to them. Two wrongs do not make a right. Why? Because one day the problem may turn ugly. That is why it is advisable to teach and learn mutual respect — it is the best way to ensure we do not end up killing each other because of our national/religious/cultural differences. So, Hannu, the person who wrote the comment is only justifying hatred and suspicion of other groups. Not a good thing taking into account what happened in the Baltic States during World War 2.

    • Enrique

      Derek, thanks for sharing the clip. Great acting by Vic Morrow. Remember him from the TV series Combat!? It is incredible to note that this happened in the last century in Europe. What is even more worrying is that this type of xenophobia overtook a whole generation and sent millions to their graves.

  7. intternetnetsi

    So you disagree, no suprise. Lets make tryout. Your children and foreign children in deaththreat, who you will save? You can save only one. Same with your brother and neighbour..
    Its not hatred, you just love someone more than other.
    And baltic states are perfect examples of multiculturalism, USSR was first multicultural country.
    And he isnt justifying, just explaining. You cant change human nature.

  8. JusticeDemon

    These appeals to some allegedly immutable notion of human nature are generally loosely based on one or another version of the chariot allegory, to the exclusion of other psychological paradigms. They also tend to push this rather crude Platonic analysis beyond any reasonable limit of its explanatory power as an analogy.

    Obviously one can score cheap debating points here by questioning the basic morality of anyone who endorses or even passively accepts discrimination and xenophobia. Such individuals are encouraging the dark horse that drags the chariot down to destruction. Moral arguments of this kind can be formulated in various ways, but I’m not sure that this approach is particularly edifying.

    We shall probably have to live with the legacy of Plato for a few generations to come, but the idea that individual character is the outcome of interaction between discrete forces (black horse/white horse, demons/angels, id/superego etc.) simply does not ring true to our modern educated minds, insofar as they are free from crude superstition.

    The progress of the moral Zeitgeist in the last 250 years rather obviously indicates that prejudice and discrimination are slowly disappearing as principles for ordering human affairs. This progress has the odd effect that some of the views of its radical heroes have to be quietly passed over with a polite cough by later generations. As Richard Dawkins points out:

    The shift is in a recognizably consistent direction, which most of us would judge as improvement. Even Adolf Hitler, widely regarded as pushing the envelope of evil into uncharted territory, would not have stood out in the time of Caligula or of Genghis Khan. Hitler no doubt killed more people than Genghis, but he had twentieth century technology at his disposal. And did even Hitler gain his greatest pleasure, as Genghis avowedly did, from seeing his victims’ ‘near and dear bathed in tears’? We judge Hitler’s degree of evil by the standards of today, and the moral Zeitgeist has moved on since Caligula’s time, just as the technology has. Hitler seems especially evil only by the more benign standards of our time.

    It is not so very long ago that someone could equally have written taistelu naisten poliittista sortoa vastaan on vaikeaa taistelua ihmisyyttä vastaan moraalin avulla, poliittisen korrektiuden tuolla puolen. The view that women have no business involving themselves in politics is, after all, consistent with the natural order of things!

    • Enrique

      Derek, thank you for clearing up to Hannu and others what human nature is. To speak about human nature in today’s modern society is like giving a deficient answers for the reasons behind out social/human ills. Philosophers such as Plato, as you mentioned, as well as others like Aristotle, Hobbes, Rousseau argued that human nature was the basis of society and social order. Thus in this type of reasoning, as Hannu’s opinion piece points out, societies are simple and lack the ability to change socially. Looking at how societies have evolved since the days of the great medieval Muslim philosopher and historian Ibn Khaldun , we have progressed in leaps and bounds. Is this attributable to “human nature” or to great thinkers (Montesquieu, Smith, for example) who brought new political and economic blueprints that changed radically our societies? It has been proved time and again that humankind has the ability to change society through new ideas/thought and is not a poor soul guided by the leash of human nature.

  9. Chiva Congelado

    As a Mexican living in Finland, I’m totally not surprised. I wouldn’t necessarily call it racist, but cartoonish stereotypical definitely.

    Usually I give them the benefit of the doubt. When confronting people using these kind of imagery as I have done in the past with the restaurant Amarillo, most of them argue ignorance rather than ill will.

    Given that the Finnish image of Mexico is based on the scraps they get from American media rather than direct contact, I’m really not surprised. I’ve had this same chat with Finns living there, and we tend to agree ;-).

    • Enrique

      Hola Chiva, nice to read your comment after such a long time. It is pretty incredible how fast stereotypes travel, even if some of these types of images of Mexicans such as the Frito Bandido were banned from airing on US television in the late-1960s. I remember back in the 1960s that Finland even used a black shoe polish called “Kongo.” There was also Lakupekka and other Golliwoggs. Fortunately, Finland has learned better.

  10. intternetnetsi

    Ok, so humans doesnt have natural order..

    How come womans are bad for fighting armys morale? Why news tell us how many womans and childs died? Why mans protect womans and childrens till theyre dead and womans do same to childrens?

    Why people do more for their relatives than strangers?
    Everything points to what is best for ourself(our genes), womans life is more valuable than mans, foreign is less valuable and child is most valuable.

    Why mans have most change on their IQ and tendence to violence? Why nature plays with us?
    Answer is easy, we are sacrificiable.

    Current change went from city nations to feodalism to nationalism simply because science allowed that to happen due transportation and communication.
    If nationalism is bad how come i hear that africa problem is invented borders?

    Also i want to know how humans can smell genes, yes smell genetic differences, and use that on choosing mate. How humans while detecting change in picture see other human in 100% of cases. Why childs detect different dialect/language/colour as threat? Why people have alert signal when they see foreign and no, there is no correlelation on how much you have been around one.

    Also i want to know how you explain what i did when i saw first snake, i didnt know what it was or anything. I ran away and told adult there was large “worm”
    Something in me said thats dangerous and no i havent had any education or experiences about snakes in that time, i were about 5. And where i lived there is no dangerous snakes. Same on spiders and high places.

    Explain why after hearing a roar i pushed girls back and went first. And yes i were scared.

    Explain why apes like same toys and female apes like female toys and male apes like male toys. Social construction?

    Humans are just animals and thats not necessarly good thing but it has to be accepted thing.

    • Enrique

      –Ok, so humans doesnt have natural order..

      These things you mention are only perceptions about ourselves. Isn’t it clear that we are closer to relatives to strangers? What is your point? Even so, it does not mean that we treat everyone else with suspicion. Society works on a basic principle of trust and predictability of behavior. If we teach our children to hate black people or members of a certain religion, that is what they will do when they grow up. It is a question of how you are brought up. That is why it is important to get rid of this hangup of the “other.” In Los Angeles we lived in a community of white people and we were taught to fear blacks. However, when I got to know more black people at university I noticed how stupid my fears were. Why distinguish in the first place a person because of his skin color or background? Can’t you move a bit further and go to his character – what kind of a person he is IRRESPECTIVE of where he is from. Why is it so important for you to classify people into different groups? Do you feel insecure about your own group?

      –Humans are just animals and thats not necessarly good thing but it has to be accepted thing.

      Humans have the ability to pass information from generation to generation, they can build complex societies and have a tool-building ability that no animal can match. We are social beings and since we are not guided by human nature, we have the ability to change and create new socieities. That is what the history of humankind teaches you.

  11. JusticeDemon

    Human being is a biological type, and must as such have a unique nature in the sense of the distinguishing or diagnostic features that examples of this type share with one another and not with other types, together with a broader nature that is shared with other animals and so on. A person, by contrast, is not a biological type as such, and we may debate the extent to which an instance of the biological type can be described as a person, or whether other types (not necessarily even biological) may exhibit personality.

    It seems clear that personhood is at least very largely a social construct, which means that our ideas of what it is to be a person, and especially what makes a good person, will depend on ideals that emerge collectively. This emergence occurs at a very considerable degree of subtlety and complexity. To argue that it is wholly, or even substantially predetermined by biological character is a very considerable stretch. This is rather like arguing that certain software features are predetermined by a particular hardware platform (which is not so, as Apple found out to its cost, and later to its benefit).

    All human beings and people share a very long common prehistory, so it would not be surprising if certain common social characteristics had developed. However, it would be wrong to argue that higher-order characteristics were somehow inevitable or even probable behavioural outcomes of homo sapiens living under all possible conditions. In particular, we should avoid jumping to swift conclusions of this kind.

    To give a simple example, it might be supposed that counting to base 10 is a natural and inevitable social emergence from the biological feature of having ten digits on the hands. However, we then have a substantial problem in explaining how Roman numerals came about and why we divide the day into 12 hours and the year into 12 months.

    Richard Dawkins goes to some lengths in The Selfish Gene to refute simplistic notions of narrow self-interest as the primary mechanism of natural selection.

    The principal point about natural selection remains the same though. The environment changes continually and any replicators that one encounters now are the descendants of other replicators that survived earlier changes. Their own descendants will in turn survive if they are sufficiently diverse to include enough individuals that are capable of surviving future changes. This is the great strength of diversity: it improves the prospects of survival. The environment of human beings nowadays depends above all on social factors, so survival depends on how well we get on with others. Xenophobia is the very antithesis of this.

    The reference to detecting genetic differences by odour is a bit of an own-goal, as its evident objective is to increase the genetic diversity of offspring. Social diversity also has survival value in this sense.

  12. Skyforger

    Well most Finns don’t know much about Mexico so there is definitely no “racist” thought behind the sign. If you want to see racism everywhere, you see it everywhere.

    • Enrique

      Hi Skyforger, thank you for your comment. However, I tend to disagree. Just because Finns do not know much about Mexico does not mean that prejudice isn’t present. And what about if a Mexican or a Latin American thought the sign was offensive? Who’s thoughts count?

  13. intternetnetsi

    “if a Mexican or a Latin American thought the sign was offensive? Who’s thoughts count?”

    Ours of course, what kind of society would work if some random individual can say what we can do?
    Do you want society where nipple is offencive because some think so like in america?

    And prejudice… define prejudice. If i think drunks arent good company or workers is that prejudice?

    • Enrique

      –Ours of course, what kind of society would work if some random individual can say what we can do?

      Certainly there are limits. One can sue you for insulting a person in public. Just because we live in a society, does not mean that we can say and act anyway we please. We understand these limits in our own culture but some are totally in the dark when it comes to other cultures.

      Do you go around saying that you are prejudice towards drunks? Being drunk is usually not acceptable social behavior just like insulting strangers, acing aggressively and in an unsocial manner. Prejudice and racism, in my opinion, is an instant classification by one group towards another because of that person’s background. It has no relationship with anti-social behavior. Moreover, is being from another culture “antisocial” in Finland?

  14. Tony Garcia

    “And what about if a Mexican or a Latin American thought the sign was offensive? Who’s thoughts count?”

    How do we live than? Everything we say, do or write can somehow offend someone. Shall we live in constant vigilance? Is that plausible? Common let’s cut the crap… If we go that way Finland will be UK in no time where Muslins, who happen to be offended by anything and anyone, just need to say a word and they get everything they want, money in particularly. Is that what we want? Really? No for me, thanks.

    I’m a Latin, and I didn’t get offended by that sigh. Apparently neither did Chiva. I know many people from Latin America living in Finland, some from Mexico, and I can tell you they wouldn’t give a toss about it.

    I think you blokes are making a fuzz of it.

    However, I’ve two Finnish children, when a Somali father told me that he will teach his children to hate Finnish people as long as he lives, that offends me deeply.

    Tell me Enrique what shall I do in this case? Who’s thoughts count?

    • Enrique

      Hi Tony, I think a person with a university background who has grown up in a multicultural country understands what is appropriate behavior towards other groups. On a plane to Europe, a few Mexican ladies (old) started to compliment my father and I because we were born in Argentina. They said that Argentina was a great country because it did not have any mestizos or Amerindians. Incredible, no? But having grown up in the United States taught me things about other cultures that I would have never learned in countries such as Argentina. Which of these is one of the most prized? Do not judge people because of their appearance and background and treat them as your equal. That may be a tall order for some people.

  15. Tony Garcia

    I’m amazed that this sigh has caught you attention and compelled you to write about it but this hasn’t.

    http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/07/home_break-ins_increase_850718.html

    “… one reason for the growing number of break-ins is an increase in the number of foreign burglars operating in the city…”

    Neither has this…

    http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/06/more_victims_of_bank_card_copying_803288.html

    ”Police apprehended a Bulgarian gang in January who had attached copying devices to cash machines in the centre of Helsinki”

    So I see that we discuss the ”chalenges” posed by immigration but just the ones created by Finns… So I see…

    • Enrique

      Tony, who says that crime does not worry me? Are you certain that these are immigrants or “fake-immigrants” who move to a country to rob? Are they organized and carry out their crimes at other European homes? I think these types of stories — be it a Finn or non-Finn — are wakeup calls to improve the security of our homes. We should not jump to conclusions because of a few misfits that ALL immigrants are a danger and bad for society. That is taking the case to its extreme. As a person who studied at university and did his master’s degree knows how to interpret data correctly.

  16. JusticeDemon

    It is precisely because most Finns know so little about this Central American country of about 100 million people that stereotyping and caricatures are so dangerous.

    We have seen a good example of this in Silvio Berlusconi’s remarks about Finland, which every Italian knows is a cold and barren northern wilderness with no significant culinary, literary, musical or artistic culture, where the politicians, including the Head of State, are simpletons who can be charmed by an elderly Milanese smoothie.

    Obviously the Italians are fully entitled to take this view of Finns in general, and to rely on this view whenever a Finn is proposed for any kind of job. This also justifies late payment of invoices from Finnish businesses when Italian firms face cashflow problems – obviously the more civilised Italian and French creditors must be paid first. The Finns are just a bunch of drunken log cabin dwellers, who probably won’t even notice that the customer has extended the credit period to 180 days.

    As every Italian knows, Finland has no significant history and no culture worth preserving. For heaven’s sake, they don’t even speak a Romance language, and were still wearing animal skins and living in caves when the Romans were managing the greatest civilisation the world has ever seen.

    • Enrique

      Derek, you make an excellent point. We can go round and round in circles criticizing each other’s culture without getting anywhere. Real courage means recognizing that this type of behavior is for ignoramuses and governments ruled by dubious prime minister’s such as Silvio Berlusconi. What I never could understand about people as himself is why one of the richest and most powerful men in Italy likes to pick on immigrants who in many cases own nothing more than the shirt on their backs? Cowardice? Bravado? A political opportunist?

  17. Tony Garcia

    “…person with a university background who has grown up in a multicultural country understands what is appropriate behaviour…”

    What I understand mi amigo, is that this is nothing more than political correctness rubbish. A cancer that is growing in Europe today, and as far as I remember you criticized it as well some time ago.

    What kind of society do we want to live? Should we have a thought police now? George Orwell would be proud.

    As I said everything can somehow offend someone. Look at our bearded friends, now in some areas in London they are demanding the councils to forbid displaying Christmas decoration outside the houses because it’s offensive to them. Who’s thoughts count?

    Where is the line? Even with my university background I can’t see it mate. I just see how things are in Ireland and UK today. If you fart behind a muslin he will sue your ass for disrespect. And he will bloody win…

    Or maybe you agree with Murad Armed when he say that blacks calling themselves nigger and Asians paki is acceptable, this “revert exclusion”, but a white doing the same is racism.

    Or maybe a the Finnish hate Somali father is just exercising his right to teach his children what he think is right. Who’s thoughts count?

    Who draws the line mate? In Ireland and UK it’s the “diverse” part of immigrants. Do we want the same in Finland? Really?

    Sorry but even with my university background I still think you are making a fuss of it. A dangerous fuss…

    • Enrique

      Amigo Tony, so what do you suggest for Finland? Should it keep certain groups from living here?

      I will be the first to tell you that multiculturalism has its challenges. Even so, it does not mean that we go to an old system of “assimilation or bust.” Some critics of multiculturalism believe that instead of solving problems such as racism in society, it only sets it aside and does not deal with the matter. But hey, you do agree that we live in a globalized world and we must find some acceptable, democratic rules which ensure that people take part and contribute to our society instead of hurling them into a dead-end ghetto.

  18. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, who says that crime does not worry me?”

    I didn’t, I just said that this kind of news never makes to your blog.

    However I can’t help but wonder…

    It’s the second time you are sceptical about official data against foreigner. It was the same with the report from SUPA and Finnish Immigration Service I posted some time ago. Now again, the info from the Helsinki police has to be “analyzed” carefully before jump to conclusions. Maybe it’s not what it looks like. Before you said that we maybe need “other sources” to compare the facts.

    So we need to sceptical about information coming from Finnish official sources, but when a group of Somalis speaking behind anonymity told that they face discrimination, no more “analyze”, “study” or “other sources” were necessary to hit the headline of your blog…

    “Discrimination is alive and kicking…”

    I said this before and I’ll say it again, Somalis are more credible than official Finnish institutions.

    Very well…

    • Enrique

      –I didn’t, I just said that this kind of news never makes to your blog.

      Wrong, we had quite a discussion on crimes committed by foreigners. Let me make a few calls and do a bit of investigating myself to look into this matter. Even though I grew up in a very multiethnic society (Southern California), pointing out criminals was due to their crimes not due to their ethnic background. If a criminal was at large, then the news would give a description of the person, including his ethnic origin in order to help his capture.

      As with respect to the Finnish police, I think they have improved a lot when it comes to clamping down on racism. However, living in this country for thirty years, I must admit that they I have been very disappointed at their attitude and slow approach to clamping down on racist crimes. However, in the 1980s, the police in Finland thought that their job was to keep “the trash” from moving into Finland. They equated crime with immigration. As I mentioned, I think they have learned that immigrants today should be defended in the same way as natives. Despite these improvements, why aren’t there any minorities such as the Roma in the police department?

      As a journalist who has been in this business fore 25 years, I have learned not to trust anyone. It is always healthy to take a “fact” and question it. If there are x foreigners that are terrorizing homes, let’s get a description of them so we can identify and spot them. Let’s not, however, use this fact to reinforce our stereotypes that immigrants are a bunch of crooks, especially if they come from x country. In our legal system, one is innocent until proven quilty in a court of law. It is the person — not the country — that is going before the law to receive punishment — if he is found guilty — of his crimes.

    • Enrique

      How MANY Roma? How many blacks, orientals etc… One or two people aren’t very representative. It is a bit like being an international Finnish company in the 1980s. The company was “international” but 100% of the employees were Finns. Neste was a classic example.

  19. Tony Garcia

    “But hey, you do agree that we live in a globalized world and we must find some acceptable, democratic rules which ensure that people take part and contribute to our society instead of hurling them into a dead-end ghetto.”

    I do, but do they?

    http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/07/immigrant_parents_send_teens_away_for_de-westernization_860905.html

    “Officials say they are learning of an increasing number of cases in which immigrant parents in Finland are forcibly sending teens back to their home countries to de-westernize them.

    The Finnish Red Cross as well as social welfare offices say that every year dozens of parents who believe their children are becoming too westernized send their offspring back to African, Asian and Middle Eastern states.”

    I’m confused now… I undestood they are fleeeding those place due persecution and life threat. But yet they can go back for holidays?

    Sorry but even with my university backgroung I have throuble understand this…

  20. Tony Garcia

    “it keep certain groups from living here?”

    Those who hate our way of life?

    Those who are here just for the dole?

    Those who think we should live the way they think it’s right, even though they way takes us 500 years back in time?

    Those who believe that violence is the best way to solve things?

    Those who insist in be “visible”?

    The who think their children need to be de de-westernized?

    Those who teach their children to hate Finnish people?

    All in all those who wants to turn Finland into Afghanistan?

    For the sake of our children, ABSOLUTELY…

  21. JusticeDemon

    It seems that immigrants are often keen to encourage their offspring to establish or foster ties with their country of origin. This includes Finland’s own elintasopakolaiset and associated diaspora:

    ULKOSUOMALAISPARLAMENTIN PÄÄTÖSLAUSELMA 2002

    Suomen kansalainen voi saada opintotukea ja –lainaa Suomessa tapahtuviin opintoihin eikä häneltä edellytetä Suomessa asumista ennen opintojen alkamista. Ulkosuomalaisparlamentti kehottaa puhemiehistöä ja sihteeristöä selvittämään, onko Suomen opintotuen piiriin mahdollista saada myös ne ulkosuomalaiset, jotka tulevat opiskelemaan Suomeen erilaisten vaihto-ohjelmien kautta. Samalla tulee selvittää, miten opintotuen saamisen ehtoja tulisi muuttaa niin, että kahta vuotta lyhyemmän Suomessa asumisen perusteella niille ulkomaalaisille, joilla on suomalainen syntyperä, voitaisiin myöntää opintotukea myös silloin kun muuton syy on opiskelu.

    Obviously these evil people want to turn North America, Sweden, the UK, Australia and so on into little Tampere. Why can’t they learn that the culture of their forefathers was inferior and something to be ashamed of?

  22. Tony Garcia

    I didn’t know that Finnish people living in US, Sweden, UK or even Australia has gone there fleeing persecution because their life were in danger.

    Also my wife and children are now in Finland for holidays and I didn’t that she went there to be des-irelandnized.

    What you know, there more you live, the more you learn…

  23. JusticeDemon

    The story that you picked up on, Tony, is worth reading in the original language, together with the follow-up interview with the Finnish Minister of Justice.

    I am immediately reminded of the English private boarding school system, to which generations of British Empire expatriates sent their children from all over the world.

    For a parallel phenomenon in the modern world, we could point out that there is an international school in every country where the USA has an embassy, and there are also substantial US government subsidies available to these organisations if they appoint a USAmerican or Canadian Principal. It is also extremely important to these organisations that their graduation certificates are recognised by universities in the USA.

    The children of British Empire and US expatriates have little or no choice as to where they go to school. Ultimately this is something decided by their parents and enforced accordingly. Such enforcement has sometimes amounted to “we’re sending you to stay with Auntie Mavis for a couple of weeks”. Parents often see no contradiction in lying to their children if this is effective in getting the children to do something that the parents think is in the child’s best interests.

    Would anyone use the expression lapsikaappaus to describe the behaviour of a US Ambassador sending his kids to boarding school against the wishes of those children?

    • Enrique

      JusticeDemon, I think you make a very valid point. If I may add, the children of Finnish immigrants are sent in summer to the “Old Country” to be with their grandparents so won’t lose touch with their parents culture. Isn’t that a basic human right to raise your child by your cultural standards? Score up another “minus” for the Finnish media reporting of immigrant issues in this country. It is truly pitiful and reveals the deeply entrenched prejudice in their writing. Any person with any common sense would understand that people from their own culture — this includes Finns as well — consider their culture the best. The more you attack the culture the more resilient it may become to outside pressure. Look what happened in the 19th century when the Russians did not allow the Finnish language to be spoken at official places. Did this kill Finnish culture? Certainly not! It only made the Finns more adamant about lobbying for language rights come hell or high water. You do the same thing in any country with minorities, and you will get a similar effect: they will become more resilient and distant from the dominant culture that imposes its ways on them.

  24. JusticeDemon

    A bit of idle research turned up this gem, showing that the question is not new:

    Papists Children sent abroad.

    Ordered, That Mr. Forster, Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Montague, Mr. Eversfeild, be added to the Committee, to whom it is referred, to inquire, what Children are sent abroad to be educated in the Popish Religion; and who have been the Occasion of sending them abroad.

    That’s from the annals of the English Parliament, dated 21 May 1689. Substitute Islamic for Popish and it could almost be a contemporary report.

  25. Tony Garcia

    As I said we can see racism in everywhere if we want. And some people really do…

    http://www.thelocal.se/20630/20090713/

    “Three years ago, when the son was five months old, the woman rushed the boy to the hospital in an ambulance. At the hospital, they encountered a foreign doctor whom the woman was unable to understand. She asked to see a Swedish-speaking doctor, and her request was granted.

    When she recently requested her son’s medical journal, she read that she and her husband had were described as racists in the notations.

    ‘We are not racists; we just didn’t understand what the doctor said.’”

  26. Tony Garcia

    “Why did they move there, Tony?”

    They came with me. I came to work in Ireland for 2 years. I spoke to my wife and she believed it could be a good idea for the kids be for a while in a different environment, Lucas was 4 and Lisa 1.

    We have been here already almost 3 years, Lucas has been 2 years in school (here they start earlier than in Finland) and speaks English better than I (well you all know my English by now, this isn’t really an achievement for him). Lisa is already speaking English quite ok for her age.

    Now we should go back this summer, half year later than planned, but my wife wants to stay one year more to improve Lisa’s vocabulary and Lucas’s writing. We intent to put them in a English speaking school in Tampere when back.

    That’s why we came here to des-Finlandnize the family 😉

    PS. I forgot to congratulate the Finnish readers of this blog.

    From Helsinki Times… “Finland achieve first objective with historic win over Brazil… Beating Brazil was something of a holy grail for Finland’s steadily improving volleyballers.”

    Well done Suomi.

    PS 2.

    Amigo Enrique I think kick the American ass twice in the confederation cup was quite all right. Wasn’t it?

  27. JusticeDemon

    On checking the messages above, Tony, I don’t think my question was at all unclear. I asked you why you think so many Finnish people emigrated to live in places like North America, Sweden and Australia. You seem convinced that they were not fleeing persecution, so why did they leave?

    For some reason the link that I provided to a simple statistical chart did not work here, though it still appears as a link. Anyway, the link was to this page:

    http://www.migrationinstitute.fi/db/stat/img/ff_01.jpg

    I assume that your children speak Spanish/Portuguese as well?

  28. Tony Garcia

    Sorry I misunderstood your question.

    Why Finns immigrate? For many reasons work, family, fun, weather, cheaper booze, bigger arses…

    But now I don’t understand the meaning of your question. I’ve been posting in this blog for months and I have been very clear about one thing, I’m not against immigration. How can I be? I’m an immigrant, so my wife and children, also my parents, I was born in Brazil but my dad was Spanish and my mom is Italian. So immigration is in the very core of my family.

    I’m though against the attitude of some immigrants. People who doesn’t respect the host country. Who think they can behave just the way they was doing in their home country regardless of what is acceptable in the new country. People who only demand and complain. Plays the race card to achieve their goals. People who complain about alienation but insist in be alienated. Complain about others seeing them differently but insist in be so different. People who hates the west at the same time enjoying all its benefits. And the list goes on. I’ve already extensively posted many real life examples about those kind of people. Particularly in the UK.

    I’m, as Enrique said before, and “invisible” immigrant, and that was the reason I have succeeded. Well I made myself “invisible”, unfortunately many immigrants who complain about “racism” and “discrimination” do nothing but make themselves “visible”.

    Sorry mate but you can’t complain of being “visible” if you demand a muslin only hour in the public swimming pool.

    No Lisa only speaks English and Lucas English and a very little Finnish. We only speak English at home…

    I hope I answered your question, I’m sorry if I didn’t. I did try.

    • Enrique

      Amigo Tony, my compliments on your family. You must have very lovely children.

      I spoke recently with a Somali refugee in x town in Finland. He told me that people often hell and insult him in the street. I told him to get the person’s license number and report the matter to the police. Is this racism? Certainly!

      By being visible or invisible also has a lot to do with the color of your skin. Don’t you think that it is very tiresome and a drudgery to go around always trying to find acceptance from people because too many do not? Don’t you think that it would be a more effective solution to live in a society that accepts diversity than one that shuns it?

  29. intternetnetsi

    “How MANY Roma? How many blacks, orientals etc… One or two people aren’t very representative. It is a bit like being an international Finnish company in the 1980s. The company was “international” but 100% of the employees were Finns. Neste was a classic example.”

    How we could know, we dont classify people by race or something irrelevant.
    There is under 10 000 romas and about 7500 polices. So about 14 romas should be polices if i counted righ. I know 2. They dont wear their traditional costumes in work to fill your “multicultural needs”. They are like all of us so i dont know if i have seen more.
    You also should note what is needed to be a police, sadly many of romas dont like education and dont have clear register.

    And now you are claiming that company cannot be international if all workers are finns.. Are we so inferior that we cant learn languages and habits of other countries and work with them? Is there some special reason to hire foreigners?

  30. intternetnetsi

    “No Lisa only speaks English and Lucas English and a very little Finnish. We only speak English at home…”

    I dont know if its too late but you can grow your childs bilingual and its benefit atleast for studying new languages not to mention being able to speak two or more languages alone is benefit.
    You may want to look http://www.finlandforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=36974

    • Enrique

      Right Henrik, these things do not exist. They are only a spiritual mirage.

  31. Tony Garcia

    “How MANY Roma? How many blacks, orientals etc…”

    Maybe because they just don’t want to? Maybe because throw petrol-bombs at the police is more fun than be a police? Maybe because the dole is just enough? Maybe because the only law they recognize is the Quran?

    How about some auto-critique before blame the system again…

    From the land of multiculturalism…

    http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1247451026171120.xml&coll=1

    “Despite effort, police attract few minorities…

    … he looked around the room and noticed nearly all of the law enforcement hopefuls were white men…

    … Mayor Stephen R. Reed is disappointed that minorities and women aren’t among the new hires…

    … Trouble in recruiting minorities for law enforcement jobs is not isolated to Harrisburg or Pennsylvania. It’s a national problem that’s been going on for years…

    … Departments across the country are finding fewer young people, particularly minorities, interested in police work…”

  32. DeTant Blomhat

    If you want to find “racism” Enrique why don’t you go look at the cruise ships in Helsinki harbor. Their “photo session” has all the stereotypes including horned vikings and lapps. On the other hand, I know why you keep yourself there with the uneducated country hicks so you have some feeling of being superior. If you came down here your inferiority complex would make you feel ashamed.

    • Enrique

      Henrik, why do you get personal? Inferiority complex? At least give me credit for addressing a very sensitive issue that awakens a lot of passions within people as yourself. Sometimes we must cut through the BS and seek the answer to the problem. Problems in society are purposefully made complex by those who never want to resolve them. Why not argue like a real person instead of anonymously and, on top of it, hitting below the belt. That does not paint a very convincing picture about you nor your ideas.

  33. JusticeDemon

    I was responding to the idea that there is anything fundamentally wrong with maintaining and fostering cultural ties to the country of origin. This inevitably accompanies and includes continuing an immigrant lifestyle that differs in at least a few important respects from the majority lifestyle, and one expression of this may be to send children to a place where that immigrant lifestyle is the majority lifestyle.

    It shows extraordinarily poor judgement to condemn this as child kidnapping, as the YLE article did. I have heard several second-generation immigrants explain that they were unable to make any real sense of their lives before they visited the place where their parents came from.

    People migrate in search of opportunity, most often because they feel that circumstances in the place of origin are defeating them, but also simply because the occasion presents itself as a choice between moving or staying. The primary factors underlying the emigration of around 10 per cent of Finland’s population since records began were economic (which is why I used the expression elintasopakolainen). Whether the economic advantage of moving is expressed in terms of employment and commercial opportunity or of the prospect of living in a welfare State is irrelevant, as willingness to contribute is a condition of receiving anything more than a bare subsistence benefit, with the challenge of social integration still to be tackled.

    I’m not sure what you are getting at with that remark about hating the West. There are elements in the Finnish way of life that I oppose as an immigrant. These elements include the idea that grandparents and great grandparents are not part of the nuclear family, that parental apathy and disinterest towards the work of schools where their children are educated is somehow anything other than shameful (I am a school governor and I run a school club), that school education should be scholastic, uncritical and stifle creativity, that the exercise of any form of public or even private power should be viewed with anything but the utmost vigilance, that management by Perkele is essentially an abuse of power and no more admirable than any other form of bullying, and that individuals do not deserve every opportunity and positive encouragement to develop their edifying abilities and talents without let or hindrance of any kind. In short, I favour a society that optimises caring and enterprise, and if this means reforming elements of the current mainstream way of life in Finland, then this is what must be done.

    If the successful social participation of any immigrant depends on the degree of visibility of that immigrant, then there is something fundamentally wrong with that society, not with the immigrant. There is no virtue in seeking to become invisible; it just makes you part of the problem. To argue that visibility increases racism is rather like arguing that stepping in quicksand makes the ground soggy.

  34. Tony Garcia

    “I was responding to the idea that there is anything fundamentally wrong with maintaining and fostering cultural ties to the country of origin”

    Well is all depends of why you are going and what are you doing there mate. I have already posted here reports of increasing numbers of Somalis going from Sweden back to Somalia to fight. Reports of growing number of Taleban fighters with Yorkshire accent. Report of Muslins living in Finland and still sending money to support terrorist organizations.

    So I wonder those who comes back from these “holidays” what would they bring here? How much “refreshed” will they be?

    Also here in Ireland has been reported that as soon as the Nigerians get their refugee status they start trips to Nigeria, many times twice an year. I just can help but wonder if they flee for their life how they can go back for holidays? Something is completely out of place and we foot the bill.

  35. Tony Garcia

    “I’m not sure what you are getting at with that remark about hating the West”

    That came from places like this…

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-480470/Radical-Islamic-sect-half-Britains-mosques-grip.html

    A hardline Islamic movement, whose leading UK imam preaches anti-Semitism and calls on Muslims to “shed blood for Allah”, is
    controlling almost half of Britain’s mosques, a police report has found. The influence of the ultra-conservative Deobandi sect, which is
    characterised by its total rejection of western values…”

    here…

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1175221/The-Muslim-cleric-blames-British-mosques-7-7-bombings-says-multiculturalism-disaster-throw-Islamic-fanatics-out.html

    “In an age when the highest-profile Muslim preachers are bearded, anti-Western firebrands such as Abu Hamza or Omar Bakri…”

    And others…

    Your thoughts about education, fantastic… I agree completely with you.

    And about visibility. Well I don’t agree with this either. That was Enrique explanation why I have succeeded. My family is all blond with blue eyes, I have a good job, nice house and a comfortable life, that makes us “invisible” immigrants.

    As I said I don’t agree with this either, I think that when you live abroad attitude is far more important than “visibility”.

  36. intternetnetsi

    So JusticeDemon tell me what it is then if childs just disappear to countries where parents fleed?
    Shouldnt childrens opinions listened?

    Also you argue about visibility. Ok.
    Ill start to beat up people randomly, its your fault that you dont accept it.

  37. intternetnetsi

    “And about visibility. Well I don’t agree with this either. That was Enrique explanation why I have succeeded. My family is all blond with blue eyes, I have a good job, nice house and a comfortable life, that makes us “invisible” immigrants.”

    I would like to add that under immigration study there was thai couple who are refugees, they live in own house in good area and think 9 of 10 accepts them and have mainly finnish friends. Their childs are doing good in school with way above avege. They probably dont look like finns.

    What i remember on that study is that couple thought that student moving away was bad but since they were in finland they accepted thats how it is. That was also in all decisions. This is finland so we do finn ways.

    Learning finnish was their main thing, they had bit problems with religion because pastor of catholic church werent there every sunday. Their childs were brought up with catholic way but they were and are free to find their own destiny.

    Immigrants like this and tony are good but that doesnt mean all is good.

    • Enrique

      Hannu, you cannot compare yourself to an immigrant from Brazil or Italy. So, do people in Lapland have some special traits that distinguish them from people in southern Finland?

  38. intternetnetsi

    “I spoke recently with a Somali refugee in x town in Finland. He told me that people often yell and insult him in the street.”

    So he did speak english, most of them cant even write their own language.
    People see what is threat.

    • Enrique

      –So he did speak english, most of them cant even write their own language.
      People see what is threat.

      How do you think I converse with him? In Somali? Finns who insult people like that use the “n” word, which is understood in a lot of language. And how do you know if they do not know how to read or write? Can you write in Arabic? So, in your reasoning, people who yell at refugees in the street can carry on because “they see it as a threat.” That argument is rediculous. Those people that yell at them are cowards. But I did tell them to take their license number and report the matter to the police.

  39. Tony Garcia

    “there was thai couple who are refugees”

    I can go further, here in Ireland we also have Indians, Chinese, Japanese and others. They also do just fine. Sorry Enrique but your theory doesn’t explain that. They are also “visible” but don’t have problems. At least no more than ordinary Irish.

    It’s like the Irish Integration minister said, It’s always about Africans and Muslims. The very same bloody people having the very same bloody problems in different part of the world? Why? Is there a worldwide conspiracy against them or they really have some problems? Why are they so good in piss peoples off? And they do this wherever they go.

    And not only the locals, ask other foreigners. Try to ask some Chinese if they are comfortable when there is a muslins around? Or an Indian. I did and the answer was obvious. Try to do this test in Finland than let me know, would you?

    Attitude mate, no matter how much you want to blame on Finns or Irish or whatever. Attitude is the key. It worked for me and many others.

    Hannu you said something that I hope more people could understand…

    “This is finland so we do finn ways”.

  40. intternetnetsi

    “Finns who insult people like that use the “n” word”

    Insult with word neekeri? word older than written history?
    Who should adapt in here?
    Like we changed negromaki to blackmaki, what it changed?
    And you insult me with “l” word. Im only one allowed to use it. Now i demand that you dont use “l” word anymore!

    “So, do people in Lapland have some special traits that distinguish them from people in southern Finland?”

    If you dont know then travel and meet some or what that multiculturalist bullshit was. And stop insulting me with “l” word, you cant use it!

    “And how do you know if they do not know how to read or write? Can you write in Arabic? ”

    Statistics my friens, statistics.

    And what else refugees are than threat? they arent nice fellows you want to next to you arent they?

  41. Lemmy

    “At least give me credit for addressing a very sensitive issue”

    It is not an issue. Its only an issue to people with no life.

  42. DeTant Blomhat

    “Despite these improvements, why aren’t there any minorities such as the Roma in the police department?”

    But there are. Actually one as a nimismies as well. Now Enrique you go ahead and answer that question why.

    What is expected of a young man going to the police academy? He is expected to have finished school, he is expected to have a clean record, used to be expected to served in the military and also pass the tests. Now it is not the police forces fault if the Roma youth don’t meet these standards. Your solution to cry “racism” does not work. People who wish to have their own separate rules from the society then have to live with their own choices. It has nothing to do with race, its the peoples own choices, or in the case of children their parents and where they are brought up.

  43. JusticeDemon

    Tony.

    There are significant historical and political parallels between Finland and Ireland. They are roughly the same size in terms of population and have both endured major population haemorrhage for economic reasons, but have recently changed to become a target for immigrants. Both countries became independent at around the same time and have had significant and violent border disputes arising from this. Emigrants to neighbouring countries (the Finns in Sweden and the Irish in England) have been the object of substantial prejudice and discrimination.

    Incidentally the dour Irish policeman swinging his nightstick on a the precinct beat became a cultural cliché in the USA, so it seems a bit odd to say that there is a fundamental problem in minority hiring of police officers. It’s more likely that this is a question of skin colour.

    Noting the parallels, I think Ireland is also in much the same condition as Finland was until very recently concerning racist incidents within its borders.

    1) Denying the obvious:

    Gardaí deny racial motivation

    59 per cent of Irish say stabbings not racially motivated

    2) Embarrassing research findings:

    Widespread discrimination in employment

    3) Moves to improve research:

    Gardaí to collect statistics on racial attacks

    4) Miscellaneous incidents:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/candidate-hit-by-racial-abuse-1759362.html

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/muslims-targeted-in-vicious-racial-attacks-warns-report-325841.html

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/c-of-i-priest-says-racism-sanctioned-by-the-state-1475497.html

    And, of course, this marvellous old chestnut!

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/green-party-calls-on-gardai-to-rethink-its-ban-on-sikh-turban-1063475.html

  44. Tony Garcia

    Buenos dias Enrique, Good morning to all…

    Enrique thanks for the compliments on my family, I wish one day you will meet them and my wife can tell you about my “I hate Finland” days.

    Let me bring the discussion back to the original subject, stereotypes.

    I’m 42, I don’t know you Enrique, but I can’t be much older/younger than I. So grew up watching American shows, one of my favourites was MacGyver, do you remember? I loved those “Americans good everyone crap” type of show (stereotype here?).

    Anyway I remember he used to go to Latin America for some rescue. The places usually were poor with dirt roads, ruled by a corrupted military dictatorship, violent, unfair, and the list goes. Isn’t this a stereotype? Could this offend Latin Americans? I don’t know about you but I never got offended, nether the millions who used to watch in Brazil every week, it used to be shown in prime time. People used to seat watch the show and relax, nothing else.

    My point is, stereotypes are part of life. Some like, some doesn’t and some get offended. That’s it. We just live with it, we can’t be calling racism all the time. Let bearded group of immigrants to do that and be hated by everyone, not us please…

    • Enrique

      Amigo Tony, I think that day will come when we will meet. It will be nice. My grandfather, who had Italian parents, was born in Nova Friburgo, Rio de Janeiro. My son is a big Brazil fan (not in football :)). One of my aims is to travel with him to the northeast and go by bus slowly all the way by the coast to Foz de Iguazu. It would be a fascinating journey. Imagine, it is as long as a trip from Spain to Sweden.
      Yes, Tony, sometimes the US movie industry stereotypes too much Latin America. As you mentioned, sweaty corrupt (which is unfortuantely true) officials with mustaches and people who speak English like the stereotypical view of Amerindians on TV.
      Stereotypes are a part of life but some — or possibly too many — take them for a cultural trait or fact. Apart from journalism, I also have a university background in anthropology-sociology. Debating what is culture and society is no easy matter my friend. It is a highly complex matter that has baffled social thinkers for centuries.

  45. intternetnetsi

    That was aired in finnish national TV so i cant compare myself to mexicans? I found that funny so probably im not as tight as mexican you try to find or you.

    • Enrique

      What is pretty interesting about this is that they are Finns making fun of the two Sami. Are you a Sami or a Finnish-speaking native of Lapland? There is a big difference. And why do some find it funny to exaggerate stereotypes about other people?

  46. intternetnetsi

    “What is pretty interesting about this is that they are Finns making fun of the two Sami. Are you a Sami or a Finnish-speaking native of Lapland? There is a big difference.”

    What difference? How you separate finn and sami? i know it takes crowbar to separate two swedes but?
    I look like them, talk like them so what separates me?
    I know for sure that my forefathers lived in area where im from atleasts since 1750 when churchbooks were invented in there.
    When i had trip in most northern finland locals tried to talk sami to me. Well same happend in estonia so im probably average person 🙂

    “And why do some find it funny to exaggerate stereotypes about other people?”

    I dont know, i have done it since i remember with all my friends from all over finland and some even from abroad.
    Why you find it not funny?

  47. JusticeDemon

    intternetnetsi

    When i had trip in most northern finland locals tried to talk sami to me.

    They tried to talk Sámi? What was the problem? Couldn’t they speak Sámi well enough for you to understand?

    I think you already found one way to separate a Finn and a Sámi.

    I’m puzzled in general why the nationalists here are so quiet about Sámi self-determination.

  48. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    I can go further, here in Ireland we also have Indians, Chinese, Japanese and others. They also do just fine.

    You’re kidding, right?

    Either that or you’re pig-ignorant about the situation of national, ethnic and cultural minorities in the Irish Republic, to say nothing of the North. Go check out the English language discussion forums for Indians in Ireland.

    My view is that Ireland is in roughly the same condition on these matters as Finland was a decade ago, and is only now beginning to abandon denial as the standard response to challenges in this area of social policy.

  49. intternetnetsi

    Quiet about their self determation? They are finns.
    And problem was of course that i couldnt speak sami but they thought i could because i look like one of locals.

    And separate by language.. well im quite fluent atleast on written english so im not finnish anymore?
    Do you tell on face that sami friend of mine isnt sami because he dont really can speak it? Or to my friend and his wife when they are by blood sami but dont speak any?

    Did i remember to mention that when we swithed to finnish they though i were from next village.

    • Enrique

      Hannu, you are who you think you are. If you feel like a Sami, then all the power to you. What do you call when, identifying with the Sami, some from that group would never accept you. What about people from different backgrounds in Finland? What about if they are not accepted? What about, as the video shows, are not only accepted but ridiculed for being different? There is a lot of strength in being different. It takes guts to be different.

  50. JusticeDemon

    intternetnetsi

    Quiet about their self determation? They are finns.

    Have you communicated this opinion to the governments of Norway, Sweden and Russia?

    Ask the Turkish and Iraqi governments about the Kurds while you are about it.

  51. intternetnetsi

    “identifying with the Sami, some from that group would never accept you. What about people from different backgrounds in Finland? What about if they are not accepted? What about, as the video shows, are not only accepted but ridiculed for being different? There is a lot of strength in being different. It takes guts to be different.”

    Tell me the difference? I have travelled all around finland and havent seen any major difference except spoken language (dialects). I have lived with savonians, karelians, swedish(in sweden) and härmäläinen. There is bit difference with things but mainly same. Of course i never could be local.

    And i dont identify with sami i identify from north and that comedy mocked it, not only sami but lapps. And being sami comes from blood.

    As i tell people my igloo melted so i started my reindeer and came here to annoy you (polar bear and rapid penguins chasing) and my friend told sad story about kalakukko what didnt give enough to live and other told how police restrict knife carrying.

    • Enrique

      –Tell me the difference? I have travelled all around finland and havent seen any major difference except spoken language (dialects). I have lived with savonians, karelians, swedish(in sweden) and härmäläinen. There is bit difference with things but mainly same. Of course i never could be local.

      Why not be bolder and see these persons as individuals. Measure them by their character, as Martin Luther King once said.

  52. intternetnetsi

    “Have you communicated this opinion to the governments of Norway, Sweden and Russia?

    Ask the Turkish and Iraqi governments about the Kurds while you are about it.”

    Are you stupid of what? there is 9 sami languages around and about 10000 speakers. How i can compare that to kurds?
    There are also lot finnish speakers in northern sweden and norway and in big areas of russia. Annex areas?

  53. JusticeDemon

    there is 9 sami languages around and about 10000 speakers.

    So what? Are you arguing that this group does not qualify for self-determination because of its size? Why should it be ruled from Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki, and Moscow? Aren’t the Sámi entitled to be nationalists too?

    How i can compare that to kurds?

    Nobody asked you to. The parallel is obvious. The Kurds are a nation lacking self-determination because they are ruled by the governments of two other States. Where is your nationalism in their case?

    There are also lot finnish speakers in northern sweden and norway and in big areas of russia. Annex areas?

    Yes. Why not annex areas? This is the logical outcome of your views, not mine.

    • Enrique

      –There are also lot finnish speakers in northern sweden and norway and in big areas of russia. Annex areas?

      Here is the root of why wars and ethnic conflicts are started: because people have not learned to live together and find strength from diversity. Moreover, this idea that x group is “pure” culturally is a lot of phony boloney. These types of gross generalities over culture are at the heart of many of our bloodiest conflicts during the last century.

  54. intternetnetsi

    “Here is the root of why wars and ethnic conflicts are started: because people have not learned to live together and find strength from diversity.”

    No, root is that all wont play with same rules.

    Look http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQPy21If6TY&feature=related and tell how many parts of finland you recognise. Lets see how much you know about finland.

    “Why not be bolder and see these persons as individuals. Measure them by their character, as Martin Luther King once said.”

    Well i do when i see individual but i judge them as group if they give reason for it.
    Its their job to fix their behauvior not my just accept.

  55. Tiwaz

    -“Why not be bolder and see these persons as individuals. Measure them by their character, as Martin Luther King once said.”

    So why every statistic is about groups not about individuals?

    Because individuals are irrelevant when we speak of big things like nations and ethnic groups. One sparrow does not make spring.

    But when you have 20 000 or them, you are pretty close.

  56. Tiwaz

    Honestly, Enrique, you should have studied proper sciences and become engineer or something except propaganda journalist.

    Proper propagandist should have ability to grasp what he is tryint to twist into lies, you can’t do even that because you can’t handle facts.

    I recommend going to study mathematics and statistics for starters. Then you should start to provide some proof for your claims of excellence of multiculturalism.

    Because evidence of it’s failure have been provided, all you present is useless rhetoric.

    • Enrique

      Tiwaz, if what is written in this blog is “useless rhetoric” what is such an “enlightened” person doing writing tons of comments? You are a good example of a person who cannot handle a debate. I do not moderate your comments too much because I like people to see how some narrow-minded Finns think. And, just as you point out — if you don’t like what is written in this blog, you can always go somewhere else.

  57. Enrique

    Goodbye Tiwaz. There are certain lines you cannot cross. One of these is when it comes to insulting me. Get a real name and debate. Don’t hide in anonymity and insult. It is the mark of a coward.

  58. intternetnetsi

    Well you call us “narrow-minded” “uneducated” “not travelled” “young” “dont know foreigners”… Dont you call those insults?
    Only thing you do is babble, no statistics no anything else than wishes and how you wish things are.
    Look in mirror.

    • Enrique

      –Look in mirror.

      In your world, everything that is different is a threat. You have a very narrow view of other cultures. Think about how much you are losing. Life has beautiful things to offer and you are classifying them according to stereotypes. It is a great personal loss.

  59. Chiva Congelado

    @Tony

    Yes, stereotypes are a fact of life, but that doesn’t mean you should believe them. Otherwise, just like Latin Americans are supposed to be all poor and lacking education, Finns and Irishmen would all be drunks. Now we agree that’s not true either, right?

  60. Tony Garcia

    No Chivas, of course we shouldn’t. You are very right about that. I’m Latin American and I’m very high educated.

    My point here was that people were making a fuzz about a little sign in a small train station. If you compare it to movies like…

    007 licence to kill where a drug dealer owns a whole country in Latin America.

    Bad Boys II a drug dealer owns Cuba.

    Naked Gun first scene where Arabics, Africans and Russians are planning to strike America.

    All those examples show a great deal of stereotypes, and in my opinion with a far bigger audience than this little sign.

    Stereotypes are all over the place, Americans are arrogant, French are rude, English are hooligans, Finnish very shy , Brazilian football better than Argentinean, etc… They don’t show the true picture but for some reason they exists.

    Also not all stereotypes are bad, I heard many times from Finnish women that Latinos are known to be good lovers, fortunate I didn’t have to prove it, otherwise it would be quite a pressure. Also Italians good cook, Latinos very happy and positive, Japanese hard working, Finns trustworthy, etc…

  61. intternetnetsi

    “In your world, everything that is different is a threat. You have a very narrow view of other cultures.”

    In my world everyone is asshole till they prove they arent, everyone has presumptions and those arent always nice but thats how world works.

    Lets say Tony Garcia sit in my table, there is my brain counting should i flee or sit, then brain calculates all other odds and then i say hello and we would talk and know eachother.

    I know stereotypes so i would wait that he asks about my igloo and i would ask how his drugdealing is going on.

    We both will know stereotypes have some thruth but lets ridicule them and have some fun.

    • Enrique

      –In my world everyone is asshole till they prove they arent, everyone has presumptions and those arent always nice but thats how world works.

      This is you.

      –We both will know stereotypes have some thruth but lets ridicule them and have some fun.

      What about if the one you make fun of doesn’t consider your brand of humor funny? What do you think about Irwin Goodman’s song: Mutakuono and lakupelle. Is this funny in your opinion?

  62. Tony Garcia

    “Is this funny in your opinion?”

    Sorry Enrique, but the point is not if we like or not. As I said someone will always get offended by someone else, the point is what we do with this.

    I’m a Christian and I find the vicar of Dibley a very offensive program, so I just don’t watch it, simple. However I would never demand it to be banned or send any complain to the BBC. If offends me I just don’t watch it, if others like it just go for it.

    As I said the point is not to be offended or not but the attitude we have after that.

    • Enrique

      –Sorry Enrique, but the point is not if we like or not. As I said someone will always get offended by someone else, the point is what we do with this.

      Hi Tony, have you heard Irwin Goodman’s song? It is directed at people as yourself.

  63. intternetnetsi

    “What about if the one you make fun of doesn’t consider your brand of humor funny? What do you think about Irwin Goodman’s song: Mutakuono and lakupelle. Is this funny in your opinion?”

    Thats their problem, amusing.

    • Enrique

      –Irwin Goodman’s song: Mutakuono and lakupelle. Is this funny in your opinion?”

      Amusing? I think this song is a fine example of Finnish racism at its best. Future Finns can always go back to it and say: “Hey, once Finns actually saw dark people in this way.” I wonder why they don’t play this song any longer on the radio? If you want a good example of a racist song, here you have one in its most ideal form.

  64. Tony Garcia

    “Hi Tony, have you heard Irwin Goodman’s song? It is directed at people as yourself.”

    Not I haven’t, but I believe in you. So if it’s offensive I won’t listen to it, simple. But as I said before I don’t demand it to be banned. If the radio wants to play it, it’s fine for me.

    I have the right to don’t listen to it, and I also give the right to other to listen if they want to.

    It’s the same example that I gave about the vicar of Dibley. It’s also directed to people like myself and very offensive. But I just change the channel.

    We just can’t get in the same trap that places like UK got it. I have already documented here how BBC would let programs like the vicar goes with no problems but any mention about Islam is heavily censored.

    I prefer to know what my neighbour really thinks about me than get a yellow smile because he has to…

  65. Tony Garcia

    What annoys me the most nowadays is the double standards we see around (not talking about you Enrique).

    We can’t offend a Muslin but it’s ok offend a Christian.

    We can’t offend a black but it’s ok offend a white.

    We can’t offend a immigrant but it’s ok offend a local.

    I’m just sick of this…

    I’ll quote Kevin Myers’s last week column about Travellers. You guys living in the “racist” Finland don’t know how bad things can get when we became more “diverse” and “enriched”…

    “We have created a legal apartheid for Travellers, in which aberrant behaviour is actually called ‘culture’

    Now all of us broadly know that Travellers, from their capital T, to their unreciprocated expectations from the rest of society, are different from us. This dissimilarity has been built into an entire rights industry, which many Travellers know all about, and exploit to the full. Even that risible entity, the Equality Authority, which has done more to provoke the compensation culture than any other government-funded body, has called “Enough”.

    Less than 14pc of Travellers are in mainstream employment, the Equality Authority’s Niall Crowley revealed last December. Ten separate organisations came together to give employment for Travellers. They managed to get jobs for just 39 of them.

    Indeed, the chronic failure to treat Travellers according to normal laws caused Fingal council not to evict some Traveller squatters from Dunsink for years; and then the council had to pay them €5.47m to move.

    Moreover, were this column about the poor, baffled and unsuccessful resident of the sink estates of Dublin, Limerick and Galway, it would not cause a legal problem. But because it is about Travellers, absurd “hate” legislation could be invoked against me and this newspaper. For we have created a legal apartheid for Travellers, in which all sorts of aberrant behaviour, from chronic alcoholism, to pathological educational under-achievement and lethal faction fights, is not merely tolerated, but actually called “culture”.

  66. JusticeDemon

    intternetnetsi

    In my world everyone is asshole till they prove they arent

    This prejudice already exemplifies the core concept of xenophobia.

    • Enrique

      –In my world everyone is asshole till they prove they arent.

      How can you ever build a relationship if its first built on mistrust? Doesn’t this speak for one of the underlying problems of interethnic relations and living in a culturally diverse society?

  67. intternetnetsi

    # JusticeDemon Says:
    July 21, 2009 at 9:37 am

    intternetnetsi

    In my world everyone is asshole till they prove they arent

    This prejudice already exemplifies the core concept of xenophobia.”

    So im xenophopic when i apply this to all, are you stupid?

  68. intternetnetsi

    “How can you ever build a relationship if its first built on mistrust?”

    Where you got that? Dont invent bullshit.

    • Enrique

      –Where you got that? Dont invent bullshit.

      You are the one who said that everyone is an “ass****” until proven otherwise.

  69. intternetnetsi

    Enrique that if someone is asshole doesnt mean i cant trust him, propably not but thats not meaningfull. Its one part of calculation.
    It doesnt take long to see if other is asshole or not.

    Trust is something what you earn.

  70. Tiwaz

    -“Goodbye Tiwaz. There are certain lines you cannot cross. One of these is when it comes to insulting me. Get a real name and debate. Don’t hide in anonymity and insult. It is the mark of a coward.”

    Debate?

    DEBATE REQUIRES YOU TO ACTUALLY SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT!
    SOMETHING YOU _NEVER_ DO!

    I do not give my real name to you, because every Internet specialist tells you NOT to share any personal information in the Internet.

    I take this very seriously, as I am very active in Internet. Because this is not just for safety of my own person, but safety of my family as well.

    I damn sure will not give you my email which gives out my name because I have noticed that you, in very immoral way, will reveal this information despite this part of reply section having this text:

    Mail (will not be published) (required)

    You still, to my knowledge without obtaining permissio from person giving you this information, post at least parts of this. Namely their name.

    OUT IN THE OPEN FOR ANYONE

    However, you only do this to those who dare to disagree with your multicultural excellence.

    I do not see you whine to JusticeDemon about his obvious nick. Nor do you post his name to open, like you have done to some people who dare to disagree.

    Either you are stupid, malevolent or ignorant. Which is it? If last one, perhaps you should apologise to people you have posted information on without permission, to my knowledge, and not do it again.

  71. Tiwaz

    However, that said, I admit that I have been out of line and too aggressive with you. For this, I apologize.

    If you wish to debate, though, you MUST support your claims. This is constant source of annoyment for me, as you never actually show numbers or actual proof for your claims. You make claim, and when it is shot down you just keep going as if it was still holding.

    I for one will have much more respect for you as debator if you support your claims of multicultural society being better with actual evidence.

    • Enrique

      Tiwaz, thank you for your apology. It takes a lot of guts to do what you did. I respect it.

      For one, nobody has to support my claims. They are mine and people are free to have their own opinions. You can be totally against what I say. We have the right to disagree. I do not mind heated debate but let’s not get personal. Sometimes I have also hit you too hard. I apologize as well. But let’s get too apologetic. There is no need to. Hit as hard as you wish my position and I will do so the same with your views. Fair deal?

  72. Tiwaz

    We can agree to that. I’ll try to watch my temper in future.

    However, I disagree on the support. If you say “we need more immigrants in Finland”, you have to show why we need them. Specially if there is counterargument which shows that there is no need for more immigrants.

    I try to support my claims either by explaining logic behind conclusion, through numbers or other means.

    • Enrique

      –However, I disagree on the support. If you say “we need more immigrants in Finland”, you have to show why we need them. Specially if there is counterargument which shows that there is no need for more immigrants.

      Have I said that? They are the government and policy makers who are making this pitch to the public. One of the confusing thing about this important question is what is the real situation. We know there is a deficiency but we are not very clear how many and when. I can flash some estimates from last year if you wish: (1) Ministry of Finance states in spring 2008 that we would need almost 2 million immigrants by 2020 to cover the labor shortage; (2) Statistics Finland states 200,000 by 2025; and (3) Ministry of Interior claims half a million immigrants by 2030. Take your pick. But let me throw the question back to you: Finland’s population is one of the oldest in Europe. How can we rejuvenate our population without increasing immigration?

  73. DeTant Blomhat

    Te politicians are making a business with asylum seekers (interior ministers brother) so I do not believe anything a politician says.

    • Enrique

      –Te politicians are making a business with asylum seekers (interior ministers brother) so I do not believe anything a politician says.

      Sue him.

  74. DeTant Blomhat

    If you expect me not to call you stupid stop making these idiotic accusations against Finland and the Finnish people. You hate us because of your own self. Stop hating Finland and the Finnish people. Look in the mirror and find the only fault is inside you.

    • Enrique

      –If you expect me not to call you stupid stop making these idiotic accusations against Finland and the Finnish people. You hate us because of your own self. Stop hating Finland and the Finnish people. Look in the mirror and find the only fault is inside you.

      You take things SO personally. You speak of the cold war period and how bad it was for Finland. With statements as the above you sound like a relic from that period. In any modern open society, people can debate critically. When there is too much consensus and a buddy buddy system, it only fuels corruption and weak morality. Get it across your head: you are no guardian angel of Finland, you are no spokesperson for the country and its people. You are only one humble opinion in the crowd.

  75. intternetnetsi

    “With statements as the above you sound like a relic from that period. In any modern open society, people can debate critically.”

    Are you a clown?
    When we shovel facts in your dream you start “UNEDUCATED, YOUNG, NAZI, FACIST, RACIST” yelling and cant prove anything. Just like in suomettuminen time, ENEMY OF STATE, ANTI USSR!, UNEDUCATED, NOT KNOWING HOW GREAT USSR IS!
    Look in mirror and start playing with facts.

  76. DeTant Blomhat

    Problem is – as we have seen in Finland lately – “there is no corruption in Finland” but once the pile starts being poked it stinks to high heaven. The courts are infested with the likes of DEMLA lawyers so there is no chance of any justice. It will take decades to get rid of the current corruption. So no I cannot sue him as I have no money to buy a verdict.

    And Enrique, are you the guardian demon of Finland to be only allowed to slander this country?

    • Enrique

      –And Enrique, are you the guardian demon of Finland to be only allowed to slander this country?

      Well, if you think I am slandering Finland, then you should sue me.

  77. Tiwaz

    -“Have I said that? They are the government and policy makers who are making this pitch to the public. One of the confusing thing about this important question is what is the real situation. We know there is a deficiency but we are not very clear how many and when. I can flash some estimates from last year if you wish: (1) Ministry of Finance states in spring 2008 that we would need almost 2 million immigrants by 2020 to cover the labor shortage; (2) Statistics Finland states 200,000 by 2025; and (3) Ministry of Interior claims half a million immigrants by 2030. Take your pick. But let me throw the question back to you: Finland’s population is one of the oldest in Europe. How can we rejuvenate our population without increasing immigration?”

    Is there going to be deficiency? You are forgetting that we are losing jobs equally rapidly.

    All low grade jobs with high workforce requirements are relocating to cheap labor works. What we are ending up with are jobs which cannot be outsourced (like cleaners) or which have high requirements in education and skill (high tech).

    This radically reduces the amount of workforce needed in future.

    As for idea that we need immigrants more than immigrants need us… Bullshit.

    By maintaining our society unified, we ensure stability in short and specially long term. This means that if it is necessary, we step up what you call “integration by perkele”.

    Make life of those who are not willing to integrate to Finland on Finnish terms so bloody miserable that they leave. With them, we lose the multiculturalism and all the problems with it.

    As it is, we have hundreds of thousands of NATIVE Britons leaving UK every year because they are disillusioned with multicultural hellhole their country is becoming. Is THIS the future you want for Finland?

    One question you do not answer is how we maintain Finland and it’s advantages, which depend on FINNISH Finland, if we start appeasing immigrants and thus create permanent problem to fix temporary issue of labor.

    Shortage might come, it more likely will not, but it will be temporary condition and temporary problem. Unintegrating immigrants have tendency to become permanent problem which does not alleviate itself. We see this in Germany where Gastarbaiters are trying to build Mini Turkey, and very conservative version of it, to Germany. Same with France and UK.

    Future of Finland in terms of revitalizing this society rest in making more Finns, not by tearing down the foundations which proved so successful in creating it in first place. Namely Finnish culture and society.

    This will also provide Finland with unbeatable marketing advantage in near future IF we need more immigrants.

    “Come to Finland, we have not yet fucked up our society with multiculturalism.”

    That will get LOTS of wanting immigrants from countries which DID commit that mistake. And if we keep forcing them to accept that this is Finland, not fucking Leeds… We will end up losing whole lot of them as well.

    But ones who remain, will go native. Will do what Tony has done and adjust to society. Maintain stability and unity of Finland, perhaps contributing some beneficial changes where they can be applied to existing culture.

    And not cause trouble.

    Finnish problems are definitely not solved by importing tens of thousands of goatherders from Somalia or Indonesian nurses.

    Part of it is ensuring that those who are accepted to remain in this country know that they must adjust to Finland, not opposite way, and are willing to go through with it. Another part is that our government has to step up on issues of low birthrates by helping your couples starting their families financially for one part.

    Cut the money paid to foreign countries. Russia should have money to rebuild land they stole from Finland and clean their shit before it hits the gulf.

    But why bother if Finns are stupid enough to pay for that?

    In short, Finland has problems which must be dealt with. But trying to get thousands and thousands of immigrants to come and hope that there are few gems in the midst of crap is idiotic solution if you can’t throw out the crap afterwards. Better cut the intake seriously, filter away most of crap before they enter country and then make life tough enough to weed rest of crap.

  78. Tony Garcia

    Sorry Tiwaz but I’ll back your claims with some facts…

    “As it is, we have hundreds of thousands of NATIVE Britons leaving UK every year because they are disillusioned with multicultural hellhole their country is becoming”

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23373110-details/Exodus:%20A%20million%20Brits%20emigrate%20while%20three%20million%20enter/article.do

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/majornews/1569533/Immigration-out-paces-British-exodus.html

    Some quotes…

    “A million Brits emigrate while three million enter”

    “People are emigrating because of a sense of hopelessness about the problems here. They see us going round and round in circles but nothing is ever done about the big problems like education, health care, crime.”

    “Damian Green, the Conservative immigration spokesman, said: “These figures prove that immigration is still running at unsustainably high levels.”
    “This is the direct result of the Government’s ‘open door’ approach which has totally failed to consider the impact of immigration on public services, housing and community cohesion.”
    “Hazel Blears, the Communities Secretary, said she recognised that some local authorities were under pressure.”
    “She added: “The effects of migration can put a strain on public services, especially when there is a large movement into an area in a short space of time.”

    “Is THIS the future you want for Finland?”

    Nop I don’t…

  79. JusticeDemon

    intternetnetsi – July 20, 2009 at 11:21 am

    In my world everyone is asshole till they prove they arent…

    —————————————————–

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JBQPCHHK0Q&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0]

    • Enrique

      Justice Demon, this is a great post that I highly recommend to all. It should be watched a number of times to understand why trust is so important.

  80. Tiwaz

    Trust comes from being able to predict. Ability to predict requires common cultural ground.

    That is the issue you refuse to see. Or rather, you see it but demand Finns to study the culture of all immigrants and appease them by using immigrants cultural norms instead of Finnish. In Finland.

    I’ll explain why this is, to be honest, stupid idea.

    Let’s round up numbers. Finland is 95% culturally Finnish. There are subgroups withing it, but all follow same framework.

    Now, remaining 5% who are not Finns… They do NOT form single group. It is split to dozens of different cultures, each often as different from one another as they are from Finnish culture.

    You cannot readily interact with representative of another culture unless you know their culture very well. Knowing one or two minor details might get you through casual situation, but in important situations you have to know how other person thinks (as it is product of cultural upbringing).

    This is where we get to the issue of numbers.

    It is stupid to say that Finns have to learn to live with other cultures. There is no sane way for Finn to know for all different cultures immigrating to Finland all these things:

    1) Culture of person they meet.
    2) Norms of the culture of person they meet.

    I could familiarize myself with Lebanese culture, society and it’s norms. But odds of me running to Lebanese person in Finland are slim.
    Same with PuertoRican. Or Mexican. Or Malawi.

    However, all of these groups WILL be in contact with Finns. So it makes perfect sense for them to learn and adjust to Finnish culture and norms. It is something they will need every day of their life in Finland.

    And again, it makes no sense for immigrants to try to learn cultures of other immigrants either. What are the odds of Mexican immigrant running to Malawi immigrant or Lebanese immigrant? How would they know what foreign cultures they must familiarize themselves with to be able to interact and predict people from them?

    It again makes more sense for immigrants to learn Finnish culture and norms and interact through these norms even when dealing with other immigrants of different cultural background.

    Again, trust requires understanding and prediction. Those require knowledge on what makes person tick. What makes person tick depends hugely on their culture, as it is culture which forms the foundation for our personality.

    Saying “but I am an individual” is rubbish. When we dig little at this individuality, we find your native culture hiding beneath the thin layer of individuality and that is common for everyone who shares your native origin.

    • Enrique

      –Trust comes from being able to predict. Ability to predict requires common cultural ground.

      Tiwaz, you make it sound as if every time you meet a non-Finn, we are venturing into unknown cultural territory. Have you ever thought that as cultures meet, they learn from each other and expand our cultural knowledge? I call this travelling in cultures. You know about other cultures by acquainting yourself with them. If you do business or have friends from this culture, there is greater motivation to learn more about them.

      Why do you always insist that immigrants DO NOT want to know Finnish cultural norms? I think it is the most natural thing if a person wants to survive in a new country as an immigrant.

      The more you know about other cultures the easier it is for you to interact with them. However, the first most important matter about interacting with other cultures is putting one’s prejudices and mistrust aside. These latter two matters are like placing barriers between you and them.

  81. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    Trust comes from being able to predict.

    In the morning, after you have sobered up, you will leave the Temple and not return.

    But if you really are able to predict, then I’d be happy to hear tomorrow’s national lottery numbers before you go.

  82. Tiwaz

    I’m sorry, did I use too complicated concept for you?

    Predict behavior of another person.

    Which requires understanding of culture since it shapes our opinions, values and norms. And thus our behavior.

    Of course, since you have no actual counterargument you try to instead make your pathetic attempts at ridiculing the truth which you are not able to accept.

    If you have nothing to counter the reality with, I recommend just shutting up and accepting it.

  83. JusticeDemon

    Ok – you don’t like predicting lottery results, but you think you can predict human behaviour.

    If so, then we can make a killing on the stock market. Let’s keep it culturally restricted by focusing on Finnish businesses only.

    Now tell me the share prices of those listed companies at close of business next Friday.

    Failing that, tell me who will win the next Finnish BB, national talent competition or other televised event that depends on audience feedback.

    Obviously you have entirely missed the Daoist point, which is mainly about the world that you have chosen to live in. Others may point the way, but only you can find the path that leads out of that world.

  84. intternetnetsi

    Justicedemon are you really that stupid? And im not sorry to offend.

    If tiwaz meet me he knows how i think his behauvior is and i know his. There isnt any sudden offends or anything.
    We will shake hands, keep distance and well… do as finns do.
    I can predict that if im in japan sticking “eating sticks” up on food is offend, i can predict that in some places shoving your foot is offend, some places offering something with left hand is offend.
    We dont have to learn that all in finland.

  85. JusticeDemon

    intternetnetsi

    Isn’t it interesting that the homicide rate in Finland has fallen substantially over the last 20 years, i.e. precisely the period within which Finland has welcomed larger numbers of immigrants?

    As DNA pointed out:

    The poor Babel fish, by effectively removing the barriers of communication between all cultures and races, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of civilization…

    These Finns understand one another so well, but nevertheless resort to violence as the primary principle of social organisation. Add a few immigrants to the mix and all of that changes. Suddenly the value of forbearance based on something more constructive than fear becomes important.

    Even the terms of these online debates has shifted since the Usenet debates of the early to mid-90s.

  86. intternetnetsi

    “Why do you always insist that immigrants DO NOT want to know Finnish cultural norms? I think it is the most natural thing if a person wants to survive in a new country as an immigrant.”

    Well i dont know about tiwaz but i know that people from cultures who claim most racism doesnt want to and i know that by experience.

  87. JusticeDemon

    intternetsi

    i know that people from cultures who claim most racism doesnt want to and i know that by experience.

    You already admitted that your experience is informed by a negative pathogy, intternetsi. It is quite reasonable for others who lack that pathology to have the opposite experience and therefore to know the opposite.

    For example, I know that Finnish men urinate in bus shelters. I know this by experience. These men are always Finnish-speaking Finns.

  88. Tiwaz

    -“Tiwaz, you make it sound as if every time you meet a non-Finn, we are venturing into unknown cultural territory. Have you ever thought that as cultures meet, they learn from each other and expand our cultural knowledge? I call this travelling in cultures. You know about other cultures by acquainting yourself with them. If you do business or have friends from this culture, there is greater motivation to learn more about them.”

    And how do I or that guy from other culture know that we do not insult one another in a very bloody way the moment we meet?

    How do I get a job in culture where expectations for employee are completely different from mine?

    Reality is, most of the time natives of just about any given country will not get so intimately familiar with random immigrant that they would have the time to familiarize with one another culture.

    Nor interest. For example employers do not look for employees who require lots of changes or adjustment by majority of employees. They look for someone who can fit into spot with least friction.

    That means, being adjusted to dominant culture.

    -“Why do you always insist that immigrants DO NOT want to know Finnish cultural norms? I think it is the most natural thing if a person wants to survive in a new country as an immigrant.”

    Because huge number of them DO NOT. Specially your favorite immigrants the Somali.

    Most immigrants do adjust to Finland, but problem is that amount of those who do not is simply unacceptably large. That leads to huge issues with crime and unemployment.

    -“The more you know about other cultures the easier it is for you to interact with them. However, the first most important matter about interacting with other cultures is putting one’s prejudices and mistrust aside. These latter two matters are like placing barriers between you and them.”

    No, barriers are differences in concepts of what is accepted and what is not in different cultures. When your normal way to behave in your native land is considered somehow bad or rude in immigrants culture and immigrant does not figure out that he no longer is in that culture…

    We have perfect recipe for failure.

    Immigrants must understand that they have to adjust to Finland as it is. Starting to expect Finland to change to fit them is only achieving two things.

    First, it makes certain they will fail in everything they try.
    Second, it will only make certain that they ruin not only their own reputation, but reputation of other immigrants.

    • Enrique

      –Because huge number of them DO NOT. Specially your favorite immigrants the Somali.

      Finland is still in diapers when it comes to living with other cultures. One way of identification in Finland is language. This is an absolute definition. Even among Finns it is an important way of identifying people. What about if people do not speak perfectly the language? This, for certain, is one aspect that will also change in the future. Different groups of Finns will speak the language in their way not because they cannot — but because it identifies them in a group.

  89. Tiwaz

    -“Finland is still in diapers when it comes to living with other cultures. One way of identification in Finland is language. This is an absolute definition. Even among Finns it is an important way of identifying people. What about if people do not speak perfectly the language? This, for certain, is one aspect that will also change in the future. Different groups of Finns will speak the language in their way not because they cannot — but because it identifies them in a group.”

    And they are not considered Finns. They are accepted as citizens, but they are not FINNS. Being Finn is partially about speaking Finnish.

    No-speak makes you foreigner.

    And in case you have not figured it out, it is quite possible for foreigner to learn very fluent Finnish and integrate into society if they just want to go through the trouble of doing something.

    Roman Schatz. Barely notable accent same as Neil Hardwick. Only their names sets them apart from native Finn and occasional accented words.

    What you fail to accept and understand is that language and absolute definition are essential. If there are no absolute definitions, then there is no concept of “us”. If there is no existing concept of “us”, we have fractured society where such concepts are created.

    Look at Iraq. They do not have national and absolute concept of “us”. They have Kurds, Shias and Sunnis. Result? Hatred, bloodshed and misery.

    USA? No concept of “us”. Result is segregation, misery and crime overblown.

    UK? Eroding concept of “us” as immigrants refuse to integrate to British society and instead try to force their society upon them.

    France, natives have concept of “us” but immigrants refuse to adjust and integrate to this. Result is segregation, crime and violence.

    Germany, natives have concept of “us”, but again immigrants have refused to adjust and integrate to this. Result is segregation, crime and violence.

    There can be no open “Finnishness” where anyone who wants is Finn. Because it would destroy concept of being Finn and thus create segregation and division to groups which would become hostile to one another sooner or later.

    Thus, being Finn must have absolute definitions which you must fulfill to maintain unity of “us”.

    Your ideal society is fractured and riddled with internecine conflict as proven by whole world.
    It is not heaven, it is hell.

  90. Lula

    I have no clue why you brought up “Russian Cossacks”. Are you saying instead of being racist towards Mexicans, why not be offensive towards Russians? Or would that make it okay since Finns and Russians are the same race? Poor word choice buddy.

    • Enrique

      Hi Lula, I did not mean it in that way but you are right. My point was that since Mexico is faraway it is easier to put up a racist sign on this group as opposed to Russians, which live next door. In order to avoid any misunderstanding, I omitted the sentence. Thank you.

  91. xyz

    Germany, natives have concept of “us”, but again immigrants have refused to adjust and integrate to this. Result is segregation, crime and violence.

    -The German National Soccer Team has immigrants from Turkey and Poland.
    -Klitschkos are originally from the Ukraine.
    -Most recent Minister President of Niedersachsen is from Scotland.
    -National chairman of the Greens is Turkish.
    -CDUs cabinet minister is from Turkey

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