Racial profiling in Finland

by , under All categories, Enrique

Here is an interesting story in the Washington Post on racial profiling, a practice whereby law enforcement uses race or a person background as a grounds for criminal suspicion.

It is only logical that if their is a greater tendency to suspect blacks versus whites in the United States, certainly more people of this group will be arrested and end up in the criminal statistics.

The article in the Washington Post is about the arrest of a prominent black professor and the treatment he received from the police due to racial profiling. The article reads:

Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. has spent much of his life studying the complex history of race and culture in America, but until last week he had never had the experience that has left so many black men questioning the criminal justice system.

We had a few weeks ago a lively debate about crimes committed in Finland by certain national group. While this is no attempt to defend such crimes, a question arises: are certain national and ethnic groups such as the Roma especially harrassed by the Finnish police?

Would you like to share your experiences with us?

A foreigner told me a hilarious story a long time ago about three dark-skinned foreigners driving in a Skoda when then Czechosolovakian President Vaslak Havel visited Finland. The police pulled the car over and asked the occupants where they were from.

One of these foreigners thought that the police had especially pulled them over because they drove in a Czech car when President Havel was visiting the country.

I wonder if professional assassins would act in such a conspicuous manner?

  1. Tony Garcia

    Well I have something to share…

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/idgbqlsney/

    “Drug trafficking in Ireland…

    …the dominance of Africans, particularly west Africans, that is most stark.

    For the last three years Africans accounted for more than half of all people arrested for cocaine trafficking in 2005 and 2007 and 30% in 2006.

    Of these, the single most prominent nationality is Nigerian. In 2005, they single-handedly accounted for half of those arrested. In the other two years it was closer to a third.

    The other thing is the relatively sudden emergence of west African, namely Nigerian, gangs in the cocaine trafficking trade — a trend highlighted in a number of United Nations reports in recent years.”

    So I ask…

    Should the Garda look more carefully to Nigerians (or Africans in particularly) at the border or would this be a “racial profiling”?

    • Enrique

      Hi Tony, I read the article and certainly this type of drug trafficking cannot be defended. From the poor Nigerian standpoint, there is most likely a financial incentive to attempt to mule cocaine to Ireland and other EU countries. However, it is interesting to note that throughout most of the article we are given big percentage numbers. “For the last three years (for which there are figures available), Africans accounted for more than half of all people arrested for cocaine trafficking in 2005 and 2007 and 30% in 2006.” And continues at the end: “In terms of volume seized, the bulk has been by sea,” and presto we find, at the penultimate paragraph, the number of arrests this year at Dublin Airport: “There have been six cases at Dublin Airport already, compared with eight last year.”
      As I mentioned, a crime is a crime and we have adequate laws to deal with such an illicit activity. However, using a headline such as “Heavy trafficking” and then flashing double-digit percentage figures without giving us a numerical comparison is a bit odd. Moreover, how much cocaine was caught at Dublin Airport if we are talking about six cases – if it is 1-3kg per individual that adds up to 6-18 kilos. Are these Nigerians the “heavy traffickers” of the drug or are they ships that bring the cocaine to the country? Tony thank you for sending the article. I think it is a bit on the sensationalist side.

  2. Mateus

    Henrique, you bring up an interesting point.
    In Brazil, it is definitely undeniable that dark-skinned people acount for the vast majority in criminal statistics.
    However, the underlying reason for that has nothing to do with their DNA or with the quantity of melanin present on their skins.
    Their deplorable social, cultural and economic conditions, due to racism and prejudice, lead them to commit crimes.

    This is a vicious cycle: racism -> poverty -> crimes -> crimes arouse racism -> racism leads to poverty -> poverty leads to crimes -> …

    So, in a certain way, racial profiling turns out to be effective. However, it is lamentable and totally unfair.

    What do you guys think? Is it the same thing that happens with the African immigrants in Europe?

    • Enrique

      Hi Mateus, I think you bring a very interesting angle to the debate from a Brazilian perspective. Racism in Latin America is something that we have not yet dared to grasp fully. Probably the Amerindians gaining more civil and cultural rights is a sign that things are changing. It is strange that in a region where most people are either Mestizo, black or dark-skinned, the ideal Latin American is white and fair-skinned. The whiter you are the more socially prestigious it is. This probably happens because there has not been a comprehensive civil rights movement like in the US that taught people to be “proud” of their background.

  3. DeTant Blomhat

    If yoiu act like a n* you get treated like a n*

    Foreigners are the guests in our house, they “demand” respect they have not earned. All they earn is criminal charges. My “respect” is accordingly.

    • Enrique

      –Foreigners are the guests in our house, they “demand” respect they have not earned. All they earn is criminal charges. My “respect” is accordingly.

      Are you for real? You must be joking… Your one-way “respect” isn’t very respectful nor are there many takers.

  4. intternetnetsi

    Hmmm… I was in same kind of situation as that bullshitdoctor, there were 2 police patrols and when i calmly explained what is happening and proved it there werent any problem. No doubt that if i started yelling i would have found myself in putka like that “professor”.

    I have also stopped multiple times because my cars have always been old and cheap. And they do ask basic questions like “where youre from” “what you do in here” “where you are going”.

    Best was when i was driving from kjä to sysmä with all my belongings in car, i saw maija driving opposite way and after few mins it was chasing me with lights on. It drove few mins behind me (checked registers i assume) and stopped me. Carcial profiling!

    And that “vicious cycle”… who can break it if not ones responsible of their behaviour, adapt or break.
    It takes time but they should thank about that their fellows not locals.

    Nothing, i mean nothing! Will change how we see others if how they behave exactly like presumed.

    • Enrique

      –I was in same kind of situation as that bullshitdoctor.

      Wow, Hannu. Send an email to the Washington Post. I am sure they will be baffled that people in a country such as Finland think this way.

      The police aren’t taught to think. They only follow rules and their instincts. Therefore, they should be under great scrutiny to ensure that the respect people’s civil rights.

    • Enrique

      –Its still a Finnish house and Finnish rules, Enrique.

      Not the way you point it out. Check the law and constitution, Henrik.

  5. DeTant Blomhat

    Yeah Intternetsi, the profiling is done by your bank account; get a Mercedes-Benz and you get profiled a lot differently – and not only by the police. i borrowed a friends Jaguar and I was called a “herra” first time in years.

  6. intternetnetsi

    Yep. Like if i walk in japanese happening and stick eatingsticks up on something and then go to muslim place with my boots on and yell respect. yeah right.

  7. intternetnetsi

    “Wow, Hannu. Send an email to the Washington Post. I am sure they will be baffled that people in a country such as Finland think this way.”

    There is apartheid going on so probably every black “professor” studuying “black things” are there not because they deserved it but because of their colour. Thats racism.

  8. intternetnetsi

    “taught people to be “proud” of their background.”

    And you try to suppress that from finns, are you proud of that?

    • Enrique

      –And you try to suppress that from finns, are you proud of that?

      One can be proud of who he is. However, if you use that proudness to belittle others (start to beat your chest like Tarzan), then there is something wrong.

  9. Tony Garcia

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5894521/Muslim-man-critical-after-honour-attack-with-acid.html

    So this week there were another honour killing in the UK. Nothing new about that of course due the size of the “diverse” community in the UK.

    However here is what a Asian community leader, not me, had to say…

    “Community leader Imtiaz Qadir, of the Active Change Foundation, said: “Honour crime happens a lot in our community, especially the Pakistani community, but we do try to educate the people. It’s a cultural thing from back home.“

    So how can the police deal with honour killing without profile Asians?

  10. DeTant Blomhat

    “One of these foreigners thought that the police had especially pulled them over because they drove in a Czech car when President Havel was visiting the country.”

    Yes and this exactly shows what? That they are apparently suffering of vivid imagination? How about a simple explanation: “the police pulled them over”. Simplest explanations usually are the most valid.

  11. DeTant Blomhat

    And yes Mateus, profiling while maybe not politically correct, it usually yields results.

    I mean if you are trying to do immigration status check, do you go ask people loitering about the train station, or do you go raid the bus depot? And then do you go after the 97,6% of the native population or do you try to target the non-OECD contingent of the non-EU foreigners of the 2,6% of foreigners?

    Of course for Enrique all immigrants are brain surgeons and astronauts, but these are usually at work and not loitering around. So yes it is lamentable and totally unfair for the working people who get occasionally stopped in these raids. However with the Schengen treaty in effect, there are no border controls any more. Now if they made a raid and stopped everybody of course that would be “equal”, and in the case of the train station theres more than enough loiterers to choose from. However the native faces are already “known” so its really again a matter of perception.

    There was a bit of an issue raised on this last year when the police had a few “theme days” raiding for illegals. They raided a few nightclubs for “working girls” and lo and behold they netted some results. Of course profiling a nightclub with a certain reputation vs. your neighbourhood pub I wonder what factors the success was due for. They’ve gotten into a bit of a tiff now as well with going strong against the aggressive beggars downtown – who happen to be mostly Romanian Roma. But then again the centre is now more or less without people jumping on you.

    So, if it only were a perfect world. But as long as theres disparity in incomes theres going to be criminals, as long as there are borders theres going to be illegals, and theres going to be police raids. The perfect world is a long way ahead.

    • Enrique

      –However with the Schengen treaty in effect, there are no border controls any more.

      If you are suspected of drug trafficking they can stop you. However, what about the principle of the four freedoms (capital, goods, people and services) enshrined by the EU?

  12. Tony Garcia

    DeTant Blomhat you are totally right mate, once again Enrique spot the problem, all right, but blame it on the wrong people.

    Nobody knows better about profiling than Irish. 20 years ago to go from Dublin to Belfast you had pass through several check points. Today, IRA has renounced violence, so the check points are gone and the only way you know you have crossed the border is when your mobile changes the provider. They stopped the violence police stopped profiling, that simple…

    The truth may be uncomfortable, but it’s still the truth. If you want to tackle honour violence you profile Asians, tackle terrorism profile Muslins, ambush rapping Muslins/Africans, drug smuggling (in Ireland) Nigerians, credit card cloning east Europeans, violent behaviour and scams Travellers (gypsies), prostitution (Portugal and Spain in particularly) Brazilians, illegal immigration (in US) Brazilians, and so one.

    I’ll quote AGAIN Community leader Imtiaz Qadir… (note he says “our” community, so another good immigrant exercising auto-critic rather than blaming on others)

    “Honour crime happens a lot in our community, especially the Pakistani community. It’s a cultural thing from back home.“

    If anyone in those groups doesn’t like profiling it should work with they own people to change their behaviour. The police will stop profiling are soon as the problem is solved. Until that I hope the police keep up with their duty of protect the law abiding people.

  13. Tony Garcia

    And people still think that police are being unfair when dealing with the “diverse” part of immigrants. The truth is in fact the opposite.

    That is the kind of people police has to deal with in a “enriched” society.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1201712/Ex-recruiter-Al-Qaeda-hurled-onslaught-race-abuse-police.html

    “Hassan Butt (Al-Qaeda recruiter) is said to have yelled ‘white redneck hooligans’ at officers who arrested his brother over claims that he became aggressive during an argument over parking.

    As he was being searched in a police van, 29-year-old Hassan is said to have called them ‘Gestapo’ and ‘bald dogs’ and to have tried provoking one officer by saying: ‘Do you like feeling Pakis up.’

  14. Tony Garcia

    And talking about profiling…

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bogus-bid-for-asylum-by-cricket-team-gets-hit-for-six-1842118.html

    “The authorities have uncovered a trend where members of cricket teams based in the Middle East were being trafficked into the State.
    In the past year, several cricket teams have applied to come here from the Middle East, with the majority of the sides comprised of Pakistani and Bangladeshi nationals. However, after entering the State, many of them later claim asylum or disappear.

    The “bogus cricketer” is one of a series of asylum scams discovered by the immigration authorities. Last March, immigration officials discovered visa applications had been made by a number of Pakistani nationals with fraudulent documentation.”

    And off course, from our “lovely” Nigerians…

    …female Nigerian national had arrived here …and claimed asylum…She said she had no passport. The next month she gave birth, withdrew her asylum claim and applied for permission to remain as the mother of an Irish citizen infant…Her application was accompanied by a passport. In August 2006 she was interviewed by a British immigration …She produced two Nigerian passports, which contained a number of visas and were valid for the same period.

    Suomi, listen to me, you are “loosing” so much but not accepting the “wonderful” multiculturalism. You would be so much “better” if you let the “diversity” “enrich” this “poor” country of yours.

  15. Tony Garcia

    “…things have changed for the better in England.”

    Absolutely. I’ve myself quoted Trevor many times. UK is indeed the best place to live in EU if you have a dark skin.

    However how about the white working class Britons? Do they count? Are they happy with this “diversity”? Has their life changed as well? And if so, for better or worse?

    I have already posted many examples about this change. Just a bit more…

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200442/The-Jihad-fanatic-peddling-message-hate-11-year-old-Londoners-funded-taxpayer.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1202192/Muslims-refuse-use-alcohol-based-hand-gels-religious-beliefs.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200532/Muslim-care-home-owner-bans-pensioners-eating-bacon-sandwiches.html

    “The 40 pensioners – none of them Muslim – were shocked when all pork products were cut off the menu by owner Dr Zulfikar Ali Khan.”

  16. Tony Garcia

    Talking about police and scum bags…

    Ladies and gents once again with you Mr. Ian O’Doherty.

    “Being a cop in Britain is becoming more dangerous by the day. And when they do hit the mean streets they have to be especially careful — not to swear in front of the people they’re trying to arrest.
    The Rozzers were called to a domestic disturbance when violent thug Glenn Francis held a female police officer hostage and then threatened to kill the first cop who came through his door, saying: “I only want one of you,” before he was wrestled to the ground.
    During the struggle, one officer swore at the toe rag — and Francis is suing.
    The officer involved has been sent on — yup, you guessed it — an anger management course and his superiors say: “He has admitted an inappropriate remark.”
    According to Francis: “It was an insult when I heard how the officer who swore at me got off — it upset me to hear someone say that.”
    He’s now taking his case to the Yurpeen Court of Yooman Rites.
    Honestly, what’s the world coming to when even the scumbags are overly sensitive? “

  17. JusticeDemon

    After studying newspaper articles and comments from Sweden in the 1960s (keywords “en finne igen” and “finnjävel”), may I conclude that Finns are by nature uncultured, belligerent and unreliable alcohol abusers with no place in a civilised society?

    Obviously these Finns did not undergo some magical character transformation on the Silja and Viking Line ferries, so however this turns out, it must be fair to conclude that Finns in Finland are much the same.

    The intemperate contributions of many Finns to this blog also bear out the negative characterisations that were popular in Sweden in the 1960s. These Finns are, by their own admission, typical mainstream individuals from Finnish society.

    My questions to you all are as follows: was the popular perception of Finnish economic migrants in Sweden accurate or not? Should this perception form the basis for profiling, for example, job applicants of Finnish origin? Would it be reasonable, for example, to require a hair follicle sample specifically from Finnish interviewees for the purpose of Alcohol and Drug Follicle Hair Screening? Clearly no such test is necessary for Norwegian or British job applicants, who were perceived far more favourably in Sweden, so we can save the cost of testing in those cases.

    If the popular perception of Finnish economic migrants in Sweden in the 1960s was not accurate, then what makes the popular perception of immigrants in Finland or elsewhere any more reliable nowadays?

    Keywords: sauce, goose, gander

  18. Tony Garcia

    I think JusticeDemon asked a valid question. I’d go even further, did you Fins tried openly to take over Sweden?

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100004840/extremists-call-for-caliphate-in-londonistan/

    “Conference season starts a bit early for Islamists hoping to make Britain part of the Islamic caliphate (Khilafah)…”

    “…built up by sponging radical cleric Omar Bakri Muhammad, who once called the 9/11 hijackers “magnificent” and spouted the cause of jihad against the West while scrounging £250,000 off the British taxpayer.”

    “Right, so you want to support the establishment of a worldwide Islamic dictatorship, and at the same time “break the stereotypes” of Muslims.”

    “Former member Ed Husain said: “Britain remains vital to the Hizb, for it gives the group access to the global media and provides a fertile recruiting ground at mosques and universities”.”

    “A representative of the group once told the BBC: “I think Muslims in this country need to take a long, hard look at themselves and decide what is their identity. Are they British or are they Muslim? I am a Muslim. Where I live is irrelevant.””

    I just want to quote this again…

    “Are they British or are they Muslim?”

  19. JusticeDemon

    In 1991 I was privileged to spend a full evening with Trevor Phillips during a Council of Europe conference in Strasbourg. At that time it was fair to say that Finland was at least 20 years behind the UK in questions of community relations, and I was able to mine Phillips’ experience in this field for guidance in formulating policies in Finland.

    One of the issues that was bothering us at this time arose from a case in which a bus driver in Vantaa had refused to carry a Muslim woman whom he could not identify from her bus pass. This turns out to be a common-enough point of contention wherever passengers carry photo-ID bus passes, but it was new to us in Finland at the time.

    Phillips considered my question about this case and observed that the problem was essentially trivial and a matter of proportion and perception. These matters gain nothing from public analysis and debate. Instead the best approach is to plan reforms of policy and practice that circumvent the problem and in the meantime to avoid confrontation on the issue. One thing we could almost guarantee was that if we made a lot of fuss about such cases, then we would be creating a new social problem that would polarise communities for no good reason.

    One reason why I was especially interested in this trivial issue was that for some weeks during my first winter in Finland (1986-87) I had worn a thick ski mask that had only eye holes. It was an exceptionally severe winter, but I had ridden the buses every day and frequently shown my bus pass though the driver had no hope of identifying me. At no point was I ever challenged for this behaviour (I remember one old lady passenger asking onko ryöstö?).

    The more general motive that I drew from this was as follows: what we perceive as a problem largely depends on our perception of a general context and our underlying attitudes towards that context. We accept that a man may wear a ski mask on a bitterly cold evening because we understand the imperative to do so. This understanding of general context makes us less likely to insist on matching the man’s face to a photo-ID for the purpose of taking a bus ride. By contrast we don’t understand why a woman should choose to cover her face and we reject any imperative to behave in this way. It then suddenly becomes a major point of principle that we can match the face to the photo-ID.

    Something similar happens with our perception of sound and noise, which is why residents in the Åland Archipelago complain about the disturbance from the Turku-Stockholm ferries, but cannot tell you whether the local public transport hovercraft has gone by yet. The hovercraft is objectively much noisier than the ferry, but it performs an important public service, whereas the quieter ferry produces the irritating sounds of a booze cruise.

    A comparable phenomenon occurs when people use mobile phones on public transport. A conversation in Finnish, or perhaps in Swedish or English is more tolerable to other passengers than a conversation in Somali or Chinese.

    What comes through strongly in the case of Henry Louis Gates Jr. is the effect of attitude on our perception of what is and is not a problem. These attitudes inform the perceptions of everyone who was involved in the original incident and has subsequently commented on it. Everyone sees the incident in terms of a perceived context, and everyone can either select or even invent features of the incident that reinforce their preconceived perception. As such, this is precisely what happens in this blog.

  20. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    One way in which the Finnish economic migrants in Sweden obdurately refused to integrate was by insisting on bringing their hard liquor from Finland. Altia Oyj launched its Koskenkorva Vodka export label on the back of this demand from Finns in Sweden. The product was a slightly or significantly stronger version of the Koskenkorva Viina already sold in Finland.

    Now should the Swedes have perceived this as a substantial refusal to integrate? Should they have been deeply offended and lobbied their government to block imports of this filthy farmers’ firewater – perhaps citing the social effects of Finnish alcohol abuse?

    Problems are all too often precisely where you choose look for them, and if you don’t find any, then you just aren’t looking hard enough.

  21. Tony Garcia

    “The head of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission was alleged to have lost the faith of minority groups, and was accused of playing the ‘race card’ to stay in post.”

    “Hampton, a South African-born academic and veteran apartheid campaigner who quit as a commissioner in March, said ‘Nobody is prepared to challenge Trevor for fear of being accused of racism. He has already played the race card in the commission. I suspect this could be the reason why Harriet Harman reappointed him.’”

    “The ECHR was also hit by revelations that it unlawfully awarded a £300,000 contract to a company run by one of Mr Phillips’ close professional friends.”

    “Last week, a blistering report from the National Audit Office found the EHRC had spent nearly £1m when it re-employed seven staff from the defunct Commission for Racial Equality (CRE) immediately after they had received severance and early retirement payments.”

    • Enrique

      Hi Tony, if as some of your articles claim that minorities use the “race card,” what card is the dominant culture using? Is it the “nationalist, keep-out-country clean” card? In my opinion, both positions are over-exaggerated by critics. The “race card” is used because racism, unfortunately, continues to be a big societal problem. How is it possible that world powers such as the United States, and even the European Union, have had a difficult time in stamping out racism and poor ethnic relations among groups? So we have the ability to build sophisticated technology and a high standard of living but when it comes to resolving our ethnic differences, some of us are appear like provincial hunters & gatherers (no insult intended) from pre-Neanderthal times. Makes you think, doesn’t it?

  22. Tony Garcia

    “Now should the Swedes have perceived this as a substantial refusal to integrate?”

    Nop, but THIS is substantial refusal to integrate…

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1054909/Have-babies-Muslims-UK-hate-fanatic-says-warning-comes-9-11-UK.html

    “Muslim hate fanatics plan to take over Britain by having more babies and forcing a population explosion, it has been revealed. The swollen Muslim population would be enough to conquer Britain from inside, they claim.”

    “Omar Bakri Mohammed, said: “It may be by pure conversion that Britain will become an Islamic state. We may never need to conquer it from the outside.”

    “We do not integrate into Christianity. We will ensure that one day you will integrate into the Sharia Islamic law.”

    “Mr Choudary then referred to Bakri s notorious aim of flying the flag of Sharia over Downing Street, claiming that this would happen by 2020 as 500 people a day were converting to Islam and laughing that Muslim families in places like Whitechapel and Bethnal Green in east London were having 10 or 12 children each.”

    • Enrique

      –Nop, but THIS is substantial refusal to integrate…

      Come on, Tony, do you think that demographics is the way that others “conquer.” Look at the United States and the Hispanics. How much political and economic power do they have?

      I think all this hype about Muslims “taking over” our culture is a bunch of nonsense. If we live in a Western democratic society, it will not succumb to undemocratic practices. Moreover, you make it sound as if ALL Muslims fit this category.

  23. Tiwaz

    -“Phillips considered my question about this case and observed that the problem was essentially trivial and a matter of proportion and perception. These matters gain nothing from public analysis and debate. Instead the best approach is to plan reforms of policy and practice that circumvent the problem and in the meantime to avoid confrontation on the issue. One thing we could almost guarantee was that if we made a lot of fuss about such cases, then we would be creating a new social problem that would polarise communities for no good reason.”

    Sounds like usual appeasement crap.

    So we avoid confrontation. And result IS polarized community because muslims are not going to abandon their barbaric, in standards of Finnish society, out of their own volition.

    Should we appease them by not requiring them to be identifiable?

    If yes, then where to we stop this appeasement? Should they be permitted the horrid mutilation of their offspring too? After all, we should not create confrontation.

    THEY cause the confrontation by not adjusting to existing communal standards and requirements. Finns do not have to justify our position in OUR country. Any more than Swedes had to in their country.

  24. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    Sounds like usual appeasement crap.

    To me it sounds like a classical Paasikivi-Kekkonen strategy.

    But let’s consider the consequences of your command approach. Start with the young Muslim mother who responds to your refusal by sitting down in front of your bus with her children. You are the bus driver. What do you do?

  25. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    Part of the beauty of the Internet is that you can always find some wingnut with wacky views to justify any far-fetched scare story that you choose to promulgate.

    It’s interesting and revealing that you are only willing to accept democratic outcomes that conform to a preconceived ethnic and demographic pattern.

  26. Tony Garcia

    “Come on, Tony, do you think that demographics is the way that others “conquer.””

    Come on Enrique, read the text. I didn’t say that, they did… I don’t think they can, they do…

    It’s not about conquer it’s about how a growing group of people refuses to integrate.

    “Moreover, you make it sound as if ALL Muslims fit this category.”

    Really? Do I?

    http://www.viewlondon.co.uk/news/islamic-extremism-spreading-in-uk-18271589.html

    “Islamic extremism is growing among British Muslims because of the growth of a radical sect, a Times report claims.

    The investigation alleges that 17 of Britain’s 26 seminaries are run by members of the radical Deobandi sect, which it claims also controls 59 of the 75 mosques in Lancashire alone.

    The Times report states that the north of England and the Midlands are especially badly affected by the growing influence of the Deobandi world view, which outlaws television and views the internet as “satanic”.

    It quotes a commentator on radicalism in Pakistan, Khaled Ahmed, as saying that the UK brand of multiculturalism is “a way of destroying yourself” because it breeds such extremism.”

  27. Tony Garcia

    “The “race card” is used because racism, unfortunately, continues to be a big societal problem.”

    It really amazes me how you can easily downplay anything that comes from the minorities. It’s never they fault, no matter what…

    Do you agree than with Sheikh Taj el-Din Al Hilali?

    “He said that women should wear the hijab, or Islamic scarf, in public, or stay out of sight at home.
    “If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park…and the cats come and eat it…whose fault is it? The cats or the uncovered meat?”
    His remarks were a clear reference to the conviction of a group of Muslim teenagers who committed gang rapes in Sydney.”

    So do you agree that rapping is wrong but it’s not the Muslims fault? Please READ… I’m not asking if you think rapping is right, but whose fault it’s Muslims or the western women?

  28. Tony Garcia

    Sorry mates but just a little bit more of Ian O’Doherty.

    “So we took a particular interest in the latest, taxpayer-funded art installation currently taking place in Scotland.

    In this fascinating, ground-breaking experiment, a Bible has been placed on a table and passing artholes are invited to scrawl messages on its pages because, as the artist says, he “wanted gays and transsexuals who felt left out of religion to ‘write their way’ back into the holy text”.

    Right, so will his next project see him using the Koran?

    Of course not. Because that would be offensive, innit?“

  29. Tony Garcia

    You know I oppose multiculturalism for many reasons, but one is how unfair it can be. The left MSM has no problem reporting how “unfair” the system is for the minorities and how “wonderful” is to have a cultural mixed place, and people. But for some reason they keep forgetting to look after their own people and culture.

    Let’s have a look at once example. Two things happened this week in the UK, the best place if you have a dark skin according to Mr. Trevor “Scumbag” Philips.

    First the MET has banned its officers from wearing a tiny union flag badge in support of British troops for being offensive. Apparently some people get offended by the flag from a country with they voluntarily went to and happily live, most of the cases, from the generosity of its tax payers. Who do you think these people could be? Hum… Maybe those man wearing funny beards, women dressing like walking rubbish bags? I don’t know, do you? Anyway…

    Second from the very same force, women police officers (non Muslims) are being issued with headscarves to wear when they visit a mosque.

    So police officers can’t wear the country’s national flag but they have to wear a religious (not theirs) symbol. Ludicrous but unfortunately true.

    So talking about fairness, is this system fair? Fair to whom? Who really matters in a multicultural society?

  30. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    You are providing more excellent examples of the selective perception that I described above.

    The Metropolitan Police have a standard issue uniform governed by official policy regulations. Individual police officers are not free to modify the appearance of this uniform with endorsements of any kind, however worthy. This means that individual officers are not free to display badges supporting UNESCO, Help the Aged, the RSPCA, the Royal British Legion, WWF, the National Blood Service, the Red Cross, the Red Crescent, or any other such endeavour.

    This is a perfectly normal uniform policy that you will find in a very wide range of occupations, including hospital staff, shop assistants and professional footballers.

    It is deliberately perverse and disingenuous to describe this as a “ban”. The uniform policy greatly predates the flag badges to which you refer. As far back as in 1927 a question was asked in Parliament concerning this regulation, which prevented police constables from wearing poppies on Remembrance Day. The Home Secretary of the day refused to budge on this matter.

    The police officers who rebelled over the flag badges were aware that these matters are governed by regulations and decided centrally. The flag badges cost 1£ each, with proceeds from sales supporting the Royal British Legion and another charity.

    My understanding is that following a petition the Metropolitan Police have now issued a policy ruling allowing these flag badges to be worn on the uniform.

    I should add that there are a lot of weasel words used in relation to the alleged “complaint from a member of the public”, which could very well turn out to be a newspaper fabrication. The people most likely to be offended by the badges include those of us who object to the illegal military action taken in Iraq and to the dishonest and transparently synthetic casus belli upon which it was based. Let’s not forget that the UK Parliament was warned of a wholly and obviously bogus 45-minute threat of WMD attack on the UK. The flag badge is as much a symbol of disgusting jingoistic warmongering as of the service personnel who face the sharp end of such dishonest politicking.

    So if you have evidence to back up your assertion that the alleged complaint came from men wearing funny beards, or women dressing like walking rubbish bags, then now is the time to explain yourself. Otherwise we may draw conclusions about your intellectual honesty.

    A standard WPC uniform does not include a headscarf. This means that a WPC who wishes to visit a mosque must either bring her own headscarf or tackle the practical social problems of entering a mosque bare headed. It’s worth bearing in mind here that a mosque is a private place of worship. The imam has no duty in law to admit any person and may also require visitors to leave.

    There are various reasons why an on-duty WPC might visit a mosque, and in most – if not all – cases these reasons are best served by not giving gratuitous offence. Any police officers who visited my home would find my family highly uncooperative if they failed to remove their shoes on entry, ostentatiously passed intestinal gas during the visit, and acted in a loud and aggressive manner. However, these requirements are as much a matter of culture and custom as any aspect of personal conduct in a private place of worship.

    It seems to bother you that Muslims show a degree of reverence for their holy scripture that is no longer common among, for example, Christians. Well, this also bothers me, but only for theological reasons. In a religious tradition so strongly opposed to idolatry the tendency to totemise scripture itself is really quite perplexing. However, I am sure you are aware that there are still plenty of Christians out there lacking the nous to recognise totemisation. Most of them also fail to appreciate how the scripture is mangled in electronic communication systems as well. You could never tear a Bible up into a billion tiny pieces to be scattered to the far flung corners of the Earth, copied and deleted thousands of times before final reassembly on a transient magnetic medium leaving billions of unreadable fragments in similar media all over the globe.

    It’s only 33 years since Whitehouse v. Lemon, which is obviously in several ways the principal judgement underlying the case that you described. Denis Lemon famously received a fine and a nine-month suspended jail term from that prosecution. It’s worth remembering, however, that one of the main justifications for perpetuating penal provisions on blasphemy is the perception that a vigilante reaction could be far worse.

  31. Tony Garcia

    “The Metropolitan Police have a standard issue uniform governed by official policy regulations.”
    “ A standard WPC uniform does not include a headscarf.”

    So she is entitle to break the uniform code to please Muslims but not support British troops, you are just helping me to make my point. Fair system? For whom?

    “…tackle the practical social problems of entering a mosque bare headed.”

    Very well said, and we know very well what sort of problems these people makes.

    “The imam has no duty in law to admit any person and may also require visitors to leave.”

    So what would happen if I demand a Muslims WPC to remove her headscarf before enter my home? Would I be sued for religious discrimination? Of course I would.

    “So if you have evidence to back up your assertion…”

    No problem….

    “The people most likely to be offended…object to the needed military action taken in Iraq.” (sorry I corrected a little mistake)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160958/HE-coward-mocking-victims-friendly-Families-dead-soldiers-react-fury-Muslim-hate-preacher.html

    “It seems to bother you that Muslims show a degree of reverence for their holy scripture…”

    Not, I don’t give a toss about their “religion”, what bothers me is…

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1051984/Are-mad-Every-organ-state-intent-protecting-destroy-us.html

    “To Qatada, it is the duty of Muslims to kill non-Muslims. Al-Sirri refers to the ‘impotence and criminal nature’ of the British government”

    “Well, he’s right about the impotence. The decent people of this country want hate-mongers like these thrown out, but the Government seems powerless. Between the human rights industry and a judiciary that appears more concerned about perpetrators than victims, foreign extremists are a protected species”

    “Because of a toxic mixture of political correctness and ignorance that seems to pervade all our dealings with Muslim extremists, the police were ignoring the rants of even the most incendiary preachers, so Qatada spread his poison undisturbed.”

  32. JusticeDemon

    Well, Tony, I’ve obviously flushed you out for what you are.

    The point about police uniforms was clearly made in my previous post and your objections are already answered. Read the post again and use your brain this time.

    I find it interesting that you quote the gutter press so freely in pressing your point. Should I base my views of Finland exclusively on sensationalist reporting from IL and IS?

    All I can suggest is that you go through these articles cutting out all the emotive, sensationalist language and weasel expressions. See how much politically significant fact they contain. I’ll give you a start. The first DM article that you referenced amounts to “people emotionally committed to one side of a polarised conflict object to emotional speech made by person emotionally committed to the other side of said conflict”. That’s it. Period. Big Deal.

    I can recognise this kind of bad journalism in Finnish straight away, and would never dream of citing it in any serious discussion. Perhaps you lack the linguistic and analytical skills to do likewise in English.

    The second DM article is deliberately disinformative of UK international treaty commitments. The legal issues that the article finds so objectionable are the direct outcome of voluntary agreements to which the UK is a party. Should the UK government break the law? Should it withdraw from those agreements and from the international club of civilised nations that concluded them? These are matters that the DM does not wish to discuss. In upholding the content of those international treaties the courts were simply doing their job. That the UK government should even bring such cases to court either indicates that it has limited understanding of the law of the land or that this is a politically opportunist attempt to exploit the ignorance of the general population. My guess is it’s probably a bit of both.

    It’s very easy to find some wingnut like Tiwaz ready to advocate or excuse varying degrees of violence to achieve some social objective, but it’s quite another thing to give serious and substantial media coverage to the views of that wingnut or to represent such a person as somehow representative of any mainstream community.

    One of the more immediate consequences of upholding freedom of speech is that someone is going to say something that you find objectionable. Deal with it.

  33. Tiwaz

    -“But let’s consider the consequences of your command approach. Start with the young Muslim mother who responds to your refusal by sitting down in front of your bus with her children. You are the bus driver. What do you do?”

    Police is informed, when police has had time to arrive they remove her and put her through regular investigation and punishment procedures.

    It hurts her more than anyone else to refuse to accept that EVERYONE must be IDENTIFIABLE. Letting one portion of population, specially one which is immigrant, run around covered head to toe in clothing which makes identification impossible (and thus makes work of police horrible when trying to tackle crime or security issues) is unacceptable.

    Because not only she did NOT get where she was going, she ended up with police and got criminal record. Thus, she would learn the hard way, since nice way failed to work, that in Finland we have demands which her cultural norms must yield to.

    Second unfortunate side-effect is that her fellow passengers do not look very favorably upon her or her kind after the incident since her refusal to respect rules has caused them problems.

    Appeasement is never solution. Immigrants must understand that they must respect first and foremost rules and norms of host nation. There would be FAR less what Enrique calls “racism” if immigrants bothered to adjust to existing conditions instead of demanding them to be changed to fit them.

  34. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    -”But let’s consider the consequences of your command approach. Start with the young Muslim mother who responds to your refusal by sitting down in front of your bus with her children. You are the bus driver. What do you do?”

    Police is informed, when police has had time to arrive they remove her and put her through regular investigation and punishment procedures.

    Several Finnish passengers on your bus are seriously delayed by your choice of strategy in dealing with something that they consider a trivial matter. They write letters to the media suggesting that you are either an inflexible jobsworth with no business providing a public service or you have some ulterior motive for your actions. One young man tells a story about riding the buses throughout the winter wearing a ski mask. Your boss has asked for a written explanation of your conduct.

    Two days pass and the incident repeats, except that now there are 20 women sitting in front of your bus. Some of them are immigrants, others are Finnish converts to Islam. There are journalists present. What do you do?

  35. Tony Garcia

    “The police arrive. When questioned the woman turns aggressive. The police gets suspicious and decided to do a search and find a small piece of paper with reference to al-Qaeda. That lead them to her house where they find more terrorist literature, also small pieces to start to make a bomb. They discover that her husband is part of a group that is just being formed to carried out jihad. All together 20 men and 30 women are arrested and swiftly deported.

    The passengers were serious delayed but pleased with your attitude. They write letters to the media suggesting that you are a responsible worker and you attitude has made Finland a safer place. One young man tells the story of being in London during the 7/7 bombs and what that really means. Your boss give you a pay raise.

    Few days later the incident repeats, except that now 20 passengers join you in refusing her entrance. Some are Finnish some are immigrants who respect Finnish law. What do you do?”

    I see a brighter future to my children…

  36. Tony Garcia

    Sometimes I wonder that this world must be upside down…

    Yesterday we received the “wonderful” news that Ireland will get 2 terrorists from Guantanamo. So Mr. Hussein is fulfilling his promises to his Islamic brothers. He will close Guantanamo, release all the terrorist. The good old Europe will foot the bill.

    Very well.. today the Independent has the head line…

    “THE State faces paying up to €430,000 annually to provide round-the-clock garda protection for two former Guantanamo Bay prisoners.”

    So that’s of course just be beginning. As soon they set foot here they will demand to bring their “family”. Wives (God knows how many), children, grand-children, parents, grant-parents, cousins, brothers, neighbours, the list goes on. And if the government dares to refuse it the Yurpeen Court of Yooman Rites(TM) will promptly show how much sovereignty Ireland has lost.

    All will, of course, be put on a very generous dole, get council houses, medical cards, you know the usual pack courtesy of Irish tax payers.

    I’ve already posted here reports about ex-Guantanamos, some going back to rejoin the Taleban and others supporting them with the dole. I wonder with group will those two decide to go.

    So people here is very unhappy with this news. I talked to the lads this morning and this is probably another nail in the Fianna Fail’s coffin. People just can’t take it anymore, as if it’s not enough the problems with Nigerians now we are importing, at a very high price, Islamic terrorists.

    Enrique mi amigo, you live in a nice place, you do indeed. It’s just when we have a look at more “enriched” and “diverse” places that we can really see how nice Finland is.

    • Enrique

      –Yesterday we received the “wonderful” news that Ireland will get 2 terrorists from Guantanamo. So Mr. Hussein is fulfilling his promises to his Islamic brothers. He will close Guantanamo, release all the terrorist. The good old Europe will foot the bill.

      Amigo Tony, the whole Guantanamo issue is as dubious as the reasons why we had to invade Iraq. As far as I know, there has only been one person (?) convicted in Guantanamo and that was by a military court. That is why when you state that “release all terrorists” I am left in the dark. Have they been convicted?

      Guantanamo, in my opinion, is a black stain in our society and our democratic values. It is something from the Bush era that will hound us for many years. It is like taking the law in your hands and making fairy tales to justify something that is in fact unjustifiable.

  37. intternetnetsi

    Enrique are you finn or american? You have to decide.
    You said youre finn and still you use “we” “our” etc when you talk about quantamo.
    We as finns or europeans dont have anything to do with it and you as american can fix your wrongdoings however you want just dont bring your problems in here.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique are you finn or american? You have to decide.

      Why do I have to decide on anything if the world is my home. The “wrongdoings” are already here.

  38. Tiwaz

    “Several Finnish passengers on your bus are seriously delayed by your choice of strategy in dealing with something that they consider a trivial matter.”

    Or, if I permit woman who is wearing potato sack which could hide anything (or possibly not even a woman) inside the bus they are considering it as a threat to their security.

    “They write letters to the media suggesting that you are either an inflexible jobsworth with no business providing a public service or you have some ulterior motive for your actions.”

    In case you have not figured it out, Finns are growing SERIOUSLY unhappy with immigrants and way they try to force Finns to adjust to their cultural norms instead of adjusting to Finland.

    If we take the left as “more immigrants yes”-group and right as “this is OUR country”-group, then most Finns are right now in the middle and in progress of shifting to RIGHT.

    “One young man tells a story about riding the buses throughout the winter wearing a ski mask.”

    Ski mask is not same as potato sack. One has practical use during harsh winter, and in case you did not figure it out passengers were NOT happy with your choosing NOT to remove it once you were inside the bus. They just did not mostly show it. Though one woman DID, as you said, note it openly.

    Of course, you being foreigner you are unable to read subtle bodylanguage preferred by Finns.

    You have no need to wear the skimask inside the bus, it is no longer cold. And for record, I have never needed skimask. Perhaps if you are unable to handle the cold, you should leave.

    Furthermore, bus driver made mistake in permitting you in and in countries which have slipped further into shithole called multiculturalism would be places where you would be treated even more suspicion. The fact that you were not properly confronted on your clothing is just sign that Finland still is holding to it’s stability and security.

    “Your boss has asked for a written explanation of your conduct.”

    And once presented with explanation that she was security issue and/or that she was trying to ride with card which has picture (and thus personal) but did not show that she actually WAS owner of the card they give me pat on the back and tell press it was her fault.

    “Two days pass and the incident repeats, except that now there are 20 women sitting in front of your bus. Some of them are immigrants, others are Finnish converts to Islam. There are journalists present. What do you do?”

    Call the police. People are even more unhappy, police is overworked and media will soon be filled with unhappy Finns writing to newspapers demanding change in laws which outlaw the burkha.
    Tatar community in Finland remains quiet, they have been muslims for generations and have not seen the need to wear potato sack. They actually may come forth too, explaining that this potato sack has no grounds in Islamic faith and thus should not be permitted on religious grounds.

    You clearly do not get it. Finns are not happy with the way immigrants carry themselves.

    Immigrants are digging their own grave by annoying Finns.

  39. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    I am giving you a scenario of escalating confrontation so that you can show us how a spiral of provocation and violence is ultimately a better solution to the problem than the strategy that was in fact adopted by YTV. That strategy was precisely the one recommended by Trevor Phillips, which you termed appeasement.

    The response to your further escalation is that now there are another 20-30 women sitting in front of your bus, this time including a few libertarian politicians. One of the veiled women is holding a large cardboard box. What do you recommend? So far you have not even analysed the problem.

    You rely a great deal on the assumption that ordinary people will support such an escalation and consider it somehow preferable to cross-cultural engagement. Presumably Martti Ahtisaari won his Nobel Prize for a product that should be for export only.

    Incidentally, do you remember the winter of 1986-87?

  40. Tiwaz

    Drop the ladies at police station if they try to come in with buscard with image. If you use card with picture on it, it is personal and you must be positively identified as person in the picture.

    There is no excuse for it. If they use cash or means which do not require identification it is one thing. Though again question of being identifiable should be one that is solved so that everyone must be identifiable.

    Demon, you fall prey to same hole as Enrique.

    You presume that cross-cultural engagement means that Finns yield and immigrants do what they want.

    Further escalation to problem WILL lead to backlash against immigrants by majority population. You do not grasp it, but we Finns love Finland as it is. When foreigners start to try to force their ways upon us instead of respecting our norms, we get more and more annoyed.

    Politicians in turn, when they smell the roses of Finns getting fed up will not want to be seen as immigrant lovers. You may have noticed how Astrid Thors has been busy little bee trying to retreat from her previous position on immigration when angry murmur appeared in the ranks of citizens.

    If immigrants keep causing problems, this murmur will not go away but increase. And politicians who value their career will not want to go against it. Those few who do, will become at best representatives of minor niche of supporters.

    In case you have not noticed, major parties are right now scurrying to get change their attitude after elections showed that PS-party made large gains.

    As for Ahtisaari. I fear that he has been distanced from reality. He lives in fantasyland.

    Reality is that his achievements for example in Yugoslavia are extremely slim. For all the talk and BS the actual PROBLEMS which led to civil war of Yugoslavia are NOT solved. Only thing which keeps it from exploding again is foreign military presence.

    Ireland for example was able to go through the peace process, to a point, because they are not culturally that different. In many ways majority of both Ireland and North Ireland are just subgroups of same cultural heritage (ignoring those who have moved to Ireland from island next door, who again are not world apart culturally from Irish).

    Only way to prevent problems rising from cultural conflict is to remove cultural gap, that is only possible by making everyone adjust to ONE set of cultural norms.

    As for Trevor Phillips, he is hardly authority to listen considering the mess such appeasement policy has made of UK. In fact, when hearing what TP says, you should do the OPPOSITE to prevent such failure.

    • Enrique

      –You presume that cross-cultural engagement means that Finns yield and immigrants do what they want.

      Isn’t it sensible if we have people from different cultures that we also take them into consideration? Why? Because it is the most effective way of integrating them into our society, which comprises of many cultures. There are two official dominant cultures (Finnish and Swedish) but this does not mean that they have the right to steamroll over minorities.

      Integration by perkele will only get you into a mess and fuel conflict.

  41. Tony Garcia

    I don’t really understand why the Finns should be the one responsible to avoid escalating confrontation and not the other way around? One they are in their own country. That proves brilliantly my point about multiculturalism being great for minorities at the same time unfair for the local people. That way of thinking gave 2 seats in the EU parliament to BNP.

    Look from this perspective we could also legalize all hard drugs, that would solve once and for all the problem of drug traffic.

    • Enrique

      —I don’t really understand why the Finns should be the one responsible to avoid escalating confrontation and not the other way around?

      It is a two-way street but, Tony, if I visited your home would you but on your best behavior? Wouldn’t you want to give me the best impression? I know I would if I ever visited you. If we are going to build a relationship (work, friendship etc), isn’t it sensible that we ATTEMPT to get along? This means that we are flexible and know a little about each other.

      Certainly we can go the other way and demand respect because “you are in my house.” However, I don’t think that would be a very constructive way of building a lasting friendship.

  42. Tony Garcia

    Amigo Enrique, good you speak about Iraq I was just wondering about this today.

    You may have seen that Islamic forces (the religion of peace) are attacking Nigeria now. I know nothing about this country however in the BBC “have your say” there was a Nigerian saying something interesting. On her/his opinion one way to solve the country’s problems would be divide it in three parts. Apparently the country is made up of three different areas fighting between each others.

    The Pentagon has also called to break Iraq in 3 parts to ease the sectarian violence. I also remember watching a program on History Channel where a American historian was telling that many problems in Africa and middle east were result of Europeans creating artificial boundaries putting rival groups to live together.

    Ralph A. Austen wrote.

    “Some scholars have argued that the existing boundaries are, nevertheless, arbitrary and that the states operating within them have attained only “juridical” as opposed to “empirical” sovereignty (Jackson and Rosberg). Juridical sovereignty refers to territorial entities maintained by agreements among outside powers (in this case both the international community and the rulers of other African states) rather than by real integration of the resident populations into a common political community. The ongoing crises in such states as Angola, the Congo, Liberia, Sierra Leone and Somalia suggest that colonial maps have not laid out a stable basis for nationhood in Africa”

    And from another article…

    “The artificial boundaries created by colonial rulers as they ruled and finally left Africa had the effect of bringing together many different ethnic people within a nation that did not reflect, nor have (in such a short period of time) the ability to accommodate or provide for, the cultural and ethnic diversity.”

    Now apparently we are trying to the same again. We are accepting Shiites and Sunnis, Turks and Kurds, Indians and Pakistanis, Chinese and Tibetans, Jews and Arabs, Tamils and Sinhalese, Zulus and Xhosas, Basotho and Bapedis, well the list goes on.

    So how can we expect that these people, who hate each other and have being fighting for centuries, will now go to a small country like Finland or UK or Ireland and live side by side in harmony? What makes you think they will leave their hatred behind?

    YLE has reported many fights going on in refugees centres. The usual “explanation” is the uncertainty about their future.

    How about to check the ethnic of those fighting? Do you think it could shade some light and explain better the problem?

    • Enrique

      Amigo Tony, Iraq is a problem that goes back to the colonial period of the 19th century. That would suggest that we are presently sowing the conflicts of the next century by our present actions.

      I noticed that Brazil has divided states (Mato Gross and Moto Grosso do Sul/Goias and Tocantins) but this has little to do with colonialism – or does? If you look at Brazilian history in the late 19th century, the aim of European immigration was to make Brazil “white” due to the large number of blacks and Mestizos. Does “pardo” mean Mestizo in Brazilian Portuguese?

      Despite the influence of eugenics, Brazil has accepted its multiethnical make up. Do you think that there is something we can learn from Brazil’s experience?

  43. Tony Garcia

    Enrique if you pardon me I’ll quote you to back up my previous post about who should avoid escalating confrontation.

    “South Americans are always bribing people. Maybe some are obliged to do it in their country, but acting the same way abroad without any understanding of the country is pretty idiotic. If an anyone did that irrespective of the country he/she came from in Finland would show pretty low intelligence.”

    • Enrique

      –“South Americans are always bribing people. Maybe some are obliged to do it in their country, but acting the same way abroad without any understanding of the country is pretty idiotic. If anyone did that irrespective of the country he/she came from in Finland would show pretty low intelligence.”

      True and we can look at Transparency International’s corruption perception report to understand the huge problem that corruption inflicts on society. However, people do not have to turn to petty bribes because the system works pretty well in Finland. Why does Finnish society work? Because it includes everyone in a sort of social-welfare egalitarian spirit. If we exclude others such as immigrants we are only undermining out society’s values.

  44. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    Respond to the point about the third stage of confrontation. There are 20-30 people, a mixture of immigrants and Finns, including some progressive politicians, sitting in front of your bus. One of them has a cardboard box. You can be sure that your passengers have long since disembarked. Probably they avoid catching your bus in the first place by now.

    All of this is due to a mere matter of showing a bus pass, by the way. A problem that YTV solved by introducing electronic cards and abandoning photo-ID (which is precisely what TP recommended). You are explaining how a strategy of elevating confrontation is somehow superior to this, but I am far from convinced.

    You come over as an extremely mean-spirited person, Tiwaz. If you collapse in the street, should I assume that you cannot be trusted and therefore steer well clear of you, or should I offer assistance?

  45. Tony Garcia

    Sorry Demon but you are wrong.

    When she bought the ticket she “signed” a contract with give her rights but also obligations, one of with is identify herself. When refusing to do so she’s braking this contract.

    You say… “A problem that YTV solved…” Very well but not VR for instance, It’s very clear on their Condition of Supply of Transport Services… “In connection with ticket checking, a passenger with a discount ticket or an e-ticket shall at request produce a valid reliable identity document.”

    So the example you gave is not about change the company’s policy but the bus driver make a concession to avoid the hassle. It’s not up to the bus driver/train conductor to decide with rules some group will be forced to follow or not. If the company’s contract says that all should identify themselves the driver/conductor should demand identification from all.

    Could we also give another example of an unemployed who take a train with money to pay only half fee? Should also the conductor accept only half fee otherwise next day he will find 20 unemployed doing the same?

    Tell me do you think that when they realise that this small rule could be broken for fear of hassle, would they try another?

    If I was in the bus driver shoes I just tell the press…

    “They bought this pass, they have to identify themselves, they know that, but yet they are refusing to do so. The company’s rule requires me to call the police, so they force me to do so. I apology to other passengers but they are causing this trouble, no me. I’m just doing my job”.

    I’m sure the passengers will be far more annoyed with the Muslins braking the rules than with the driver enforcing it. That will definitely create even more suspicions against them.

    You putting the bus driver under the spot light for doing what the company he work for demands from him is quite unfair. The Muslim woman is the one provoking the situation buy deliberately braking the contract. Tiwaz gave a good example, she could than pay cash, the problem would be solved.

    What kind of equal society will Finland be if some groups are allowed not to follow some rules when the rest have to? Do we want an Orwellian state where “all are equal, but some are more equal than others”?

    If the Muslim community believes that could be a better way they should than lobby the company to change their policy (like YTV), not provoke and civil disobedience.

    Your example about Whitehouse v. Lemon case is a good example of what to do when you believe something is wrong, use the democratic institutions we have rather than your own hands.

  46. Tiwaz

    -“Respond to the point about the third stage of confrontation. There are 20-30 people, a mixture of immigrants and Finns, including some progressive politicians, sitting in front of your bus. One of them has a cardboard box. You can be sure that your passengers have long since disembarked. Probably they avoid catching your bus in the first place by now.”

    No, I will have police coming and taking them away if they have broken rules. There will be no progressive politicians, there might be couple asskissers though, who are bound to lose their career when their miscalculation on attitude of Finnish people is revealed by media.

    Finns are angry at immigrants at this point and demands are made to make them comply with rules. Politicians try to drag their feet but they will obey will of the huge majority.

    Soon, immigrant veils will be banned like in France. And immigrants face cold reality that Finns do not want to live in Wahabbistan.

    -“All of this is due to a mere matter of showing a bus pass, by the way. A problem that YTV solved by introducing electronic cards and abandoning photo-ID (which is precisely what TP recommended). You are explaining how a strategy of elevating confrontation is somehow superior to this, but I am far from convinced.”

    However, this solution only works as long as rot called multiculturalism is held at bay. When we are introduced to wonderful violent fruits of multiculturalism, we will have to reconsider ability of ANYONE to travel in buses has to reveal their faces to make identification possible. And buses will be filled with CCTV cameras, like in London.
    And we will no longer have trashcans, like London no longer has.

    Because they learned that those things are prime tools for bomb attacks.

    -“You come over as an extremely mean-spirited person, Tiwaz. If you collapse in the street, should I assume that you cannot be trusted and therefore steer well clear of you, or should I offer assistance?”

    You would, in theory, be punished if you did that. You have to ensure that there indeed is nothing wrong with anyone who collapses on the street.

    As for mean-spirited. I simply want EVERYONE to have SAME rules.

  47. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    she could than pay cash, the problem would be solved.

    Are you aware of how individuals claim public transport subsidies in the Helsinki Metropolitan Area?

    Whitehouse v. Lemon exposed bad legislation and bad public policy. The point is the extent to which individuals should take a stand against these things at the sharp end. Rosa Parks is obviously a celebrated example. To me, she is a hero, whereas you would have followed the example of white supremacists in telling your children that she was an evil woman for not merely sitting at the back of the bus and writing a letter to her white supremacist congressman.

    The Montgomery bus boycott focused national and international attention on certain public policies and laws that needed to be changed. Direct actions of this kind are highly effective ways of securing public policy reform, largely because all that Tiwaz and her ilk can resort to is an escalation of violence. One of the features of liberal democracies is their capacity for defusing such conflicts before they spiral out of control, which is exactly what happens in Finland. Tiwaz’ problem is that she is emotionally unsuited to function in any public fiduciary position in such a society, but only in a context in which compliance is coerced.

  48. JusticeDemon

    Oops. Blockquote didn’t close properly. That response should have read as follows:

    ***

    Tony

    she could than pay cash, the problem would be solved.

    Are you aware of how individuals claim public transport subsidies in the Helsinki Metropolitan Area?

    Whitehouse v. Lemon exposed bad legislation and bad public policy. The point is the extent to which individuals should take a stand against these things at the sharp end. Rosa Parks is obviously a celebrated example. To me, she is a hero, whereas you would have followed the example of white supremacists in telling your children that she was an evil woman for not merely sitting at the back of the bus and writing a letter to her white supremacist congressman.

    The Montgomery bus boycott focused national and international attention on certain public policies and laws that needed to be changed. Direct actions of this kind are highly effective ways of securing public policy reform, largely because all that Tiwaz and her ilk can resort to is an escalation of violence. One of the features of liberal democracies is their capacity for defusing such conflicts before they spiral out of control, which is exactly what happens in Finland. Tiwaz’ problem is that she is emotionally unsuited to function in any public fiduciary position in such a society, but only in a context in which compliance is coerced.

  49. Tony Garcia

    Demon, you are very right in many points, but you missed my.

    “Are you aware of how individuals claim public transport subsidies in the Helsinki Metropolitan Area?”

    No, but I’m not say the system is right. I’m just have a different opinion on how to handle the problem.

    “Whitehouse v. Lemon exposed bad legislation and bad public policy.”

    Again I don’t know much about this case but I used to show that the court of law has been used to solve the matter. We have seen many other cases of “blasphemy” with Fatwa has been used instead.

    You are right when saying that the system is not effective. There is plenty of room for improvement, however I still think it’s very dangerous drift away from it. In the same line we can have 2 teenagers arrested for smoke pod (is that right word?) in the park, next day 20, 50 next week. In their view law against marijuana is stupid as much as rule in Finnish transport is unfair for the woman’s religion.

    Also the Finns parents can start preventing their children to go school if there is any immigrant working or studding in it. They are the vast majority in there and for sure it would provoke a huge wave. So should the government change or enforce the law?

    What do you think about vigilantism in Italy to fight against the wave of rape committed by immigrants? A father whose daughter has been raped will say this is very welcome.

    As you probably know right and wrong in many cases depends very much on the person point of view.

    The hard question is , who decided with rules/laws are fair and with are unfair? With rules we should follow and with we should break? This could be the first step towards anarchism.

    Our society is formed by many instances of policy/rule/law making and enforcement. From the city council to supreme court, all of them somehow elected by us and it’s their job create/modify/enforce rules and laws, not ours. There is a substantial difference between protest and civil disobedience.

    I’m still not say that the system is perfect but we can’t just ignore it whenever we want.

  50. intternetnetsi

    “Whitehouse v. Lemon exposed bad legislation and bad public policy. The point is the extent to which individuals should take a stand against these things at the sharp end.”

    This is not USA

  51. intternetnetsi

    “–Enrique are you finn or american? You have to decide.

    Why do I have to decide on anything if the world is my home. The “wrongdoings” are already here.”

    Then say clearly “I”, Finns dont have nothing to do with USA.

  52. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    I simply want EVERYONE to have SAME rules.

    Think straight Tiwaz. I could get you to retreat from that absolute ambition very easily. You cannot possibly want everyone to have the same rules.

    • Enrique

      –I simply want EVERYONE to have SAME rules

      JusticeDemon, I would add: I simply want EVERYONE to have the SAME rules and RIGHTS.

  53. JusticeDemon

    Ricky:

    JusticeDemon, I would add: I simply want EVERYONE to have the SAME rules and RIGHTS.

    Then you are guilty of the same shallow thinking as Tiwaz.

    • Enrique

      –Then you are guilty of the same shallow thinking as Tiwaz.

      Is the law being applied to everyone fairly “shallow thinking?”

  54. JusticeDemon

    Ricky:

    True and we can look at Transparency International’s corruption perception report to understand the huge problem that corruption inflicts on society. However, people do not have to turn to petty bribes because the system works pretty well in Finland. Why does Finnish society work? Because it includes everyone in a sort of social-welfare egalitarian spirit. If we exclude others such as immigrants we are only undermining out society’s values.

    There was some interesting discussion of corruption in HS last month, pointing out that although outright bribery is rare in Finland, selective favours remain a significant feature of business and public administration.

    My own experience back in the early 90s suggested that official inaction and the general current of discretion tended to favour individuals in positions of power and influence. It was certainly quite difficult to persuade public prosecutors to investigate the irregular practices of Finnish businesses in relation to their use of migrant workers, and there was a suspiciously strong propensity for police and public prosecutors to invoke discretionary de minimis provisions as the sole justification for dropping an investigation or not preferring charges.

    There is little or no systematic monitoring of how public officials and others in positions of authority exercise their discretionary powers, even though this is the most obvious area in which systematic bias will otherwise survive undetected.

  55. JusticeDemon

    Ricky

    Is the law being applied to everyone fairly “shallow thinking?”

    Not at all, but that’s not the same thing. What you said was

    I simply want EVERYONE to have the SAME rules and RIGHTS.

    and that is an untenable position.

    By the way, please take a look at Will Hutton on fairness.

    • Enrique

      –I simply want EVERYONE to have the SAME rules and RIGHTS.

      Yes, you are right, it has a Tiwazian spin to it. I should have made myself a bit more clear.

  56. Tony Garcia

    Enrique:

    “I would add: I simply want EVERYONE to have the SAME rules and RIGHTS.“

    This is a good thinking but if we want to achieve it we need to see what is preventing us to get there.

    If everyone should have the same rules and rights how than…

    Muslims get their own swimming time and others don’t.

    Muslims demands Christmas celebration to be cancelled but holds their Ramada.

    Muslims are allowed to wear headscarf in national schools but crosses are banned.

    Muslims victims of crime can require a Muslins police officer but a Christian can’t.

    No Muslims WPC is required to wear a headscarf when entering a mosque but a Muslim WPC can’t be asked to remove hers when entering a church.

    Islamic schools are left on the loose at the same time that Christians schools are heavily monitored.

    And more recently people holding busses pass are obligated to identify themselves but women in burqa are dismissed from doing so.

    So tell me with group fights for same rules same rights with group fights against it?

  57. Tony Garcia

    “It is a two-way street but, Tony”

    Yes I’ve been saying this here for months, however minorities groups don’t think so. They demand some of our traditions to be banned cause it’s offensive to them at the same time demand their culture and costumes are accepted, unquestionably.

    “It is a two-way street but, Tony”

    Yes… It is…

  58. Tony Garcia

    Enrique:

    What Mato Grosso has got to do with this discussion? Yes it has been divided but for administrative reasons, there were never sectarian violence in there, actually it’s one of the less populated states we had. It’s the place where we have most of our cattle farming.

    Nigerian and Iraq are very different. People is calling to divide the country to keep people who hate each other apart and stop killing each others.

    The hard question that the left refuses to answer hoping that it’ll go away by itself is: If they need to be apart in their own country what makes you think they can be together in Finland? What makes you think they will leave their hatred behind? If you know please tell me, or to you really think that the fights at the reception centres are caused by stress and frustration?

    “Does “pardo” mean Mestizo in Brazilian Portuguese?”

    Yep mix of black and white. Some people call “bastardo”.

    “Brazil has accepted its multiethnical make up”

    Yep and where did that lead the country? One of the most violent place in the earth. I’ve never taken my children in there and intent not to.

    “Do you think that there is something we can learn from Brazil’s experience?”

    Absolutely, a lot. I’ve been for months trying to show exactly this. The problem is that people just don’t want to see it.

  59. Tony Garcia

    “If we exclude others such as immigrants we are only undermining out society’s values.”

    I have nothing else to add to that, agreed 100%

    Um bom final de semana para tu e tua familia, meu amigo.

    (Espero que compredas mi portugues)

    • Enrique

      Que pases un lindo fin de semana también, mi amigo. Hasta pronto.

  60. Tiwaz

    -“Isn’t it sensible if we have people from different cultures that we also take them into consideration? Why? Because it is the most effective way of integrating them into our society, which comprises of many cultures. There are two official dominant cultures (Finnish and Swedish) but this does not mean that they have the right to steamroll over minorities.”

    No it is not way to integrate them. Look at USA. If immigrants doing their thing integrates them to society, why there is “Little Italy”, Chinatown or other ethnical territories segregating immigrants from rest of population?

    Because multiculturalism does not work. If there is no pressure to integrate, people choose route of least work and refuse to integrate. Even small pressure is not enough as people tend to be highly unwilling to adjust to conditions of new society.

    As for Finland. THERE IS NO SWEDISH CULTURE IN FINLAND.
    What you think as “Swedish”, is actually subculture of Finnish culture with higher amount of Swedish influence. They are very far from Swedish culture thanks to generations of isolation.

    JusticeDemon,

    Everyone living by same rules is not impossible position. I admit it is idealistic position, as those with power will always abuse it and are distanced from rules. But Immigrants are not ones with power, they are the beggars not the choosers.

    They have no rights or privileges above native Finns. And your desire to have such privileges instated just shows how poorly you understand societies and how they work. Preferential treatment of immigrants is the most certain way to destruction. Just look at Rwanda and how well preferential treatment of small minority went down there.

    They got slaughtered when majority got fed up and tired of being mistreated.

    And in general:

    It is NOT two way street. Immigrants have no right to demand that Finns must yield their cultural tradition or social values to appease immigrants. Immigrant is the beggar, they have to adjust to Finnish conditions as they are.

    Perhaps those conditions change over time with trickle contact with foreigners. Perhaps not. But it is not for immigrant to demand appeasement.

    Culture and identity of Finns and Finland is not some cheap commodity to trade. “You respect this cultural norm of ours and in turn we immigrants agree to respect that of yours”

    Because it is untenable position. Immigrants always are out there with totally different cultures so such “two way street” would not see end to eroding Finnish culture and values. Values which built this place into wealthy, stable and advanced society.

    As opposed to ways of most of the world where things are dominantly far worse.

    What there is to learn from foreigner cultures of actual VALUE?

    How to slaughter one another based on religion? Or ideology? Or tribe?

    How to let corruption run rampant in our nation and ruin it?
    How to make communal infrastructure which just Does-Not-Work?

    Finland is not perfect, but when I go around in the world.. I notice it is goddamn good compared to practically everywhere else.

    Life is better in USA, if you are rich. If you have Finnish level income, life in most of world is great. But societies are crap (crime, disease, unrest etc etc)

    Reality is, Finnish culture and society work well. They turned agrarian society of backwardness to first world country with great reputation on high-tech development in half a century.

    Eroding that foundation will not make us more vibrant and advanced, it will just create more internal problems and conflicts which eat away the chance to take this country further.

    • Enrique

      –As for Finland. THERE IS NO SWEDISH CULTURE IN FINLAND. What you think as “Swedish”, is actually subculture of Finnish culture with higher amount of Swedish influence. They are very far from Swedish culture thanks to generations of isolation.

      The Swedish Finns are who they consider themselves to be. They are in a unique and culturally rich position to be a part of two or more cultures. Few Latin Americans consider themselves to be Spaniards but they understand that their language and part of their culture comes from the Peninsula. The most interesting thing about this situation is that Latin Americans and Spaniards can communicate with each other linguistically and culturally. So, in order to find out what the identity of the Swedes are in Finland, you would have to ask their opinion of that.

      It is a bit like the narrow-minded definition of the Finn that has been given in this blog sometimes. I may consider myself as a Finn but you may disagree. The problem is yours — not mine.

    • Enrique

      Life is better in USA, if you are rich. If you have Finnish level income, life in most of world is great. But societies are crap (crime, disease, unrest etc etc). Reality is, Finnish culture and society work well. They turned agrarian society of backwardness to first world country with great reputation on high-tech development in half a century.

      I agree with you about the United States that it is a country where money appears to be the most important driving force. We should be careful, however, to generalize. But if you read books such as Alex de Tocqueville’s “Democracy in America,” we can arrive at such a conclusion. If Finnish society works so well, why can’t it handle cultural diversity? Why is it seen by some like yourself as such a threat?

      Is what you are talking about a fallacy? Take for instance the hundreds of thousands of Finns that left this country in the late-nineteenth and early twentieth century. Is this an example of a “perfect society?” Was the Kekkonen era an example of a perfect society or was it only a myth? Do you agree that Finnish society in the past had very little patience with dissension? If we studied this aspect of Finnish history, your opinions of “our perfect society” would vanish pretty rapidly.

  61. Tiwaz

    -“The Swedish Finns are who they consider themselves to be. They are in a unique and culturally rich position to be a part of two or more cultures. Few Latin Americans consider themselves to be Spaniards but they understand that their language and part of their culture comes from the Peninsula. The most interesting thing about this situation is that Latin Americans and Spaniards can communicate with each other linguistically and culturally. So, in order to find out what the identity of the Swedes are in Finland, you would have to ask their opinion of that.”

    Stick a Swedish Finn in Sweden and they are woefully lost. They THINK they are Swedish, but when faced with genuine Swede they are proven to be so far distanced from that origin that they no longer fit into Swedish culture.

    That you think you are something makes you not one.

    Someone can think they are great singers, like many in Idols program, but them thinking that way does not give them talent to sing well.

    -“It is a bit like the narrow-minded definition of the Finn that has been given in this blog sometimes. I may consider myself as a Finn but you may disagree. The problem is yours — not mine.”

    No, problem is yours. Because societies are built on principle of “us”. If there is no ability to differentiate “us” from rest… There will be consequences which are not pretty because such separation will take place. More of this in Racist sign in Finland thread.

    -“But if you read books such as Alex de Tocqueville’s “Democracy in America,” we can arrive at such a conclusion. If Finnish society works so well, why can’t it handle cultural diversity? Why is it seen by some like yourself as such a threat?”

    Because cultural diversity leads to fractured society which is never one that functions well and is successful.
    You have beautiful dream of everyone sitting together and putting their differences aside and singing kumbaya. But sadly, it is a dream.

    Real world tells us that such thing is not possible. If there are two groups with sufficiently different cultures in limited area, they are not going to sit together but fight one another.

    Finnish society works so well because it is devoid of fractures. Our biggest fracture was in 1918 with Civil War. And it saw horrible things. After that, this division line has been narrowed and worked out. To create new one would be to invite same conditions which led to wholesale slaughter of Civil war. Only this time it would be Finns vs Foreigners. And foreigners would get part of reds in that replay.

    -“Is what you are talking about a fallacy? Take for instance the hundreds of thousands of Finns that left this country in the late-nineteenth and early twentieth century. Is this an example of a “perfect society?” Was the Kekkonen era an example of a perfect society or was it only a myth? Do you agree that Finnish society in the past had very little patience with dissension? If we studied this aspect of Finnish history, your opinions of “our perfect society” would vanish pretty rapidly.”

    You are speaking of era when things were very wrong in Finland. Era when Finland was agrarian society of misery, like Somalia today.

    Until 1918 Finns were not masters of their own country. And it was not really in interests of Russians or Swedes to try to improve our country. So it remained mainly agrarian buffer zone.

    Alas, Finns received freedom from foreign yoke eventually.

    It was not possible to turn Finland overnight to what it is from such conditions. But Finns damn sure changed it VERY quickly. And remained together as one state.

    Just look at countries which have gained their freedom at same time or earlier, but which were culturally “diverse”.

    Iraq became independent in 1932, their history is not one of great rise, even with far superior natural resources compared to Finland. Theirs is tale of internecine conflict thanks to wonderful “diversity”.

    Look upon Yugoslavia, formed around same time as Finland from union of State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs and the Kingdom of Serbia. To be recreated after WW2.

    Their diversity, and long history of living next to one another, did not serve to make it a very stable society. Nor very wealthy one.

    Look at Belgium. Walloons and Flemish differences repeatedly making country creak. But this far hold together.
    Barely…

    Czechoslovakia… They split because there simply was nothing to keep them together. There was no concept of “us”.

    Unlike those countries where “diversity” has “enriched” the society… Finland today has no issues with stability.
    Unlike those radically “diverse” societies, Finland also has managed to become prosperous, perform a “rags to riches” on national scale.

    • Enrique

      –Stick a Swedish Finn in Sweden and they are woefully lost. They THINK they are Swedish, but when faced with genuine Swede they are proven to be so far distanced from that origin that they no longer fit into Swedish culture.

      But that is not the point. The issue is that they have grown and are a minority in Finland. For the Swedish language, Sweden is their benchmark. They are a minority in their own right and an integral part of Finland historically, culturally and linguistically.

  62. Tony Garcia

    “If Finnish society works so well, why can’t it handle cultural diversity?”

    Sorry Enrique but your are already answering your own question. Because the more diverse the culture is the more difficult it’s to integrate and work together with the main culture, causing all sort of problems, crime and violence for example.

    “Why is it seen by some like yourself as such a threat?”

    Because people like us refuses to stick the head in the sand hoping that everything will be fine.

    See what is happening around you amigo, UK, Sweden, France, Italy, the list goes on. The more diverse the place the more violent.

    Tell me, do you really think it’s coincidence that places like Leyton with about 40% of its population comes from Africa and Asia is forced to place metal detector at the school doors to stop knife crime?

    Longford and Limerick are also very diverse places, but an advice, please don’t plan to move your family there, just thrust me on that.

    You speak about diversity from a very privileged place where diversity is not a reality. So you can dream of it being anything you want. It may be very beautiful in the books and essays but on the streets the reality is quite different.

    Diversity it’s a threat, you accepting or not.

    • Enrique

      –Sorry Enrique but your are already answering your own question. Because the more diverse the culture is the more difficult it’s to integrate and work together with the main culture, causing all sort of problems, crime and violence for example.

      Hi Tony, I hope you had a restful weekend. Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. What you are stating is that as cultures become more diverse this means that problems such as crime and violence erupt. However, have you ever thought that it is the reticent attitude, the prejudice and exclusion that generate dysfunction? Moreover, I don’t think you will find any society on Earth that is not free from crime and deviance.

      Is there an empirical correlation that shows that as society become more diverse, the crime rate goes up? I think that making such an affirmation is scratching the surface of the problem. There are other factors such as prejudice and exclusion that fuel mistrust and crime.

    • Enrique

      –You speak about diversity from a very privileged place where diversity is not a reality. So you can dream of it being anything you want. It may be very beautiful in the books and essays but on the streets the reality is quite different.

      Tony, you forget that I was born in Argentina and grew up in the United States. Through my work, I have lived in a number of countries such as Italy, Spain and Colombia. Thanks to “cultural diversity” I am able to be “international” and live in a rural place. So, I speak from experience.

  63. intternetnetsi

    “So, I speak from experience.”

    No you dont, you dont live in “enriched” area where peons like me see “enriching” everyday.

    • Enrique

      –No you dont, you dont live in “enriched” area where peons like me see “enriching” everyday.

      Read my comment carefully.

  64. Tiwaz

    And culturally they are just as Finnish as rest of the Finns. They are not group on their own, they are subgroup of Finns with mostly shared tradition and, indeed, language.

    You are hard pressed to find “Swede” who would not speak perfectly good Finnish when pushed.

    As for being minority. They are vanishing minority. They did start out culturally separate, but as time has passed they have become less and less distanced from Finns.

    Today, they are subgroup of Finnish culture. Not group on their own. Just like Savo, Häme or Pohojalaanen are dialects of Finnish, NOT languages on their own.

    • Enrique

      –And culturally they are just as Finnish as rest of the Finns. They are not group on their own, they are subgroup of Finns with mostly shared tradition and, indeed, language.

      Agreed. Now you understand the richness of multiculturalism, or a society comprised of different cultures. Now the challenge would be to make all people irrespective of their background feel as if Finland were their home.

  65. Tiwaz

    -“Agreed. Now you understand the richness of multiculturalism, or a society comprised of different cultures. Now the challenge would be to make all people irrespective of their background feel as if Finland were their home.”

    No, there is no richness of multiculturalism. Swedish speakers are NOT separate culture like Somalians. They are subculture due to integration to Finnish culture. Swedes are able to function and prosper in their environment because their culture has forfeited most of Swedish parts and replaced them with Finnish cultural norms.

    Somalians are Somalians. Their culture has little to no connection to Finnish culture. They cannot act in Finland according to their own cultural norms and prosper because they are flat out against demands of environment they live in.

    Same for Malawi, Chinese, Australians or practically any other cultural group coming to Finland. Their cultural norms do not work here. Their culture has usually little to no connection to Finnish culture. Thus there is only conflict if they keep living according to their original cultural norms.

    What you think of multicultural here in Finland is actually monocultural. One culture dominating and swallowing other cultures and molding them to it’s own image.

    Forefathers of Swedish speaking Finns were once separate culturally from Finns and were actually Swedes. Today they no longer are.

    Their connection to culture of their forefathers is severed, as is their language. Native Swede and Swedish speaking Finn speak VERY differently.

    If they moved to Sweden, they would be almost as alien there as Finnish speaking Finns.

    So you see, it is not multicultural. It is monocultural. And that is why Finland is not horrible hellhole of conflict, because we have ONE culture which “overrules” all others.

  66. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    Saesit männä piätäs kuppuuttammaan.

    Finland has very extensive cultural diversity despite the efforts of you and your ilk going back many generations. Furthermore, times have changed: minorities have stopped finnicising their family names out of a fear of social oppression, Roma children are no longer forcibly removed from their families, and young native speakers of minority languages are no longer punished for using those languages among themselves at school.

    That cultural diversity is something that you seek to deny in the teeth of strong evidence in order to promote a xenophobic agenda that can only be sustained by violence and is only advocated by those who are pathologically drawn to violence as a means of social engagement.

    Is it ever morally justifiable to hit a child? Were YOU ever beaten as a child? How did you learn to behave yourself? I think we should know the answers to these questions.

  67. Tiwaz

    Cultural diversity?

    Tell me, which cultural diversity you see when you walk down the street.

    Can you tell the tiny minorities of jews, tatars or sami when walking down streets of any major cities? You can’t.
    Can you reliably identify Swedish speakers there? No.
    They all act and look like rest of Finns.

    Only group you can reliably identify there are the Roma. Who stubbornly refuse to integrate into society and by and large, to become productive members of society. So they are by and large living off social security.

    It is amusing you use examples from 60s to show how horrible Finns are. How about taking a good look at what OTHER nations did around that time to their minorities.

    Whole concept of taking Roma children was copied from… NORWAY!
    Punishing children for speaking their native language in Argentina as we learn from posts in this blog.

    So what so different Finland did what other “progressive” societies did not do back then?

    There is no cultural diversity in Finland. Those non-Finnish cultures that are more or less native to Finland today have done one of two things. Assimilated to Finnish culture (or are in progress of doing so) or have adjusted their culture to be compatible with Finnish culture.

    Again, only Roma fail to do this and we see what kind of grand success this is. Jews? Adjusted. And so we see them, or their offspring, in multitude of positions.

    Ben Z in parliament is one. He speaks perfect Finnish, he can interact with Finns in Finnish terms. He is, Finn.
    He dresses like Finn.
    He has chosen to be Finn before being jew. Replace him with orthodox jew from Israel with funny hat and beard and you do not have success.

    As I have repeatedly said… Immigrants must adjust to Finnish society NOT try to make Finnish society adjust to them.

    If their culture permits something but Finnish does not, Finnish culture overrules them.
    If their culture denies something but Finnish permits, they cannot deny it for anyone else.
    If Finnish culture does not say anything about it, they are free to do as they please while not forcing their way upon anyone else.

    Three simple things to do.

    And as last three lines in your post tell us. You are an idiot.

    My interest in fact is to avoid inevitable social collapse and violence which comes if immigrants and politicians do not dig their heads out of their asses and figure out that multicultural system does not work. It never has, it never will.

    Immigrants have to adjust to Finland, if they do not they create conflict which will grow until there WILL be violence. Unless one party yields on their cultural norms and demands to adjust to other ones there is no alternative.

    Just look at world. Iraq, Yugoslavia, Russia, Ossetia, India…

  68. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    Mää mää ja mäkätä männessäs.

    You have not understood the meaning of integration and you have failed to grasp how this differs from assimilation. Do some reading and try to use your terms consistently.

    Your entire approach is based on the pathology that violence is an acceptable first resort for compelling social compliance. You need to explore the roots of that pathology. Answer the question: were you beaten as a child? How do you feel about beating children?

  69. Tiwaz

    I perfectly understand integration, what I call integration is minimum level where immigrant population becomes productive part of society without causing conflict.

    What you are talking about… Well, you actually do not present ANY logic or argument.

    Your entire approach is talking without saying anything and spewing stupidity like your little Freudian idiocy asking about my childhood.

    If you had bothered to challenge those few braincells you might have you would notice that I am saying that violence is inevitable CONCLUSION of situation where immigrant population refuses to integrate into society.

    Go troll elsewhere if you have nothing to contribute.

  70. Tiwaz

    Fine, let’s say my policy for immigration is that they must assimilate, if it satisfies everyone. Let’s take a look what happens when immigrants are NOT assimilated…

    http://www.hudsonreview.com/bawerWi06.pdf
    http://www.24dash.com/news/Housing/2007-09-04-London-s-neighbourhoods-segregated-by-religion

    As we see, lack of integration or assimilation leads to segregation and conflict. Of course fans of multiculturalism do not want to see it, because it would prove your whole world image and image of humanity to be seriously flawed.

    But reality is that multiculturalism does not work. Cultural gaps only serve to create conflict, and only through removing these gaps we can avoid it. And there is no way to “bridge” the gap. Gap remains no matter how many rickety “bridges” you build. Gap must be undone, that requires one side to change their way of life. And that is immigrants, because it takes insanely arrogant person to say that natives of country must change their culture so that immigrants do not need to.

    But sadly, such thoughts are not all that uncommon in ranks of immigrants. And some “progressive” politicians repeat this stupidity.

  71. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    Se jutujjuataja huasteloo tuvan tyhjäks, suattapahan nähä.

    You have not understood integration – specifically in respect of how it differs from assimilation. Do some proper reading.

    Nothing to do with Freud. I think you are showing signs that a certain attitude was beaten into you at a very early age: that violence can solve problems in human relationships. The fact that you have now twice tried to dodge the question about whether you were beaten as a child and how you feel about beating children only serves to reinforce my point. Why don’t you tell us how you were parented and what your own attitude is towards disciplining your children? It’s OK to feel ashamed of this. The point is to break the cycle and be a better parent to your own children.

    Might is not right. This is a fundamental lesson that Western civilisation learned in the Dark Ages. Social solutions based on violence merely create a cycle of violence. Progress depends on negotiation and mutual accommodation of genuinely conflicting needs and interests.

    The reason why xenophobic and fascist views ALWAYS go hand in hand with militarism and coercive social policy is a matter of pathology, not of logic or argument. You cannot reason yourself out of rabid hydrophobia by calculating your degree of thirst from from your osmolite concentration, because the cause of the symptom is pathological. Your dedication to violence, to coercing people to conform to some exaggerated notion of normality that would dictate to them how they should even dress in the street, is a pathological dedication.

    You need to face up to this and recognise it, instead of trying to project it on everyone else around you. If your pathology really was shared by the majority, then it would be reflected in government policy. However, government policy has definitively rejected coercion as an instrument of social organisation. This is why Martti Ahtisaari won the Nobel Peace Prize.

  72. Tiwaz

    If you must know. My parents never beat me. Nor am I supporter of violence. People who know me know me as one of the more calm people around and not prone to any violent tendencies.

    Do some proper reading yourself. Integration as it is offered is a JOKE. It only speaks on how people must have full rights and so forth but never speaks of their responsibilities.

    That is not integration. But fine, if you prefer word assimilation let us use it. Assimilation.

    -“Might is not right. This is a fundamental lesson that Western civilisation learned in the Dark Ages. Social solutions based on violence merely create a cycle of violence. Progress depends on negotiation and mutual accommodation of genuinely conflicting needs and interests.”

    Surrendering and appeasement are not wise either. As proven by WW2 where Neville Chamberlain took position of appeasement hoping it would make Nazis settled with what they have. Instead it only encouraged more aggressive position by Nazis.

    In same breath, your preferred “integration” is nothing but attempt to demolish Western societies, namely Finnish here.

    To quote Keving MacDonald, professor of psychology from California University:

    “[Given] that some ethnic groups—especially ones with high levels of ethnocentrism and mobilization—will undoubtedly continue to function as groups far into the foreseeable future, unilateral renunciation of ethnic loyalties by some groups means only their surrender and defeat—the Darwinian dead end of extinction. The future, then, like the past, will inevitably be a Darwinian competition in which ethnicity plays a very large role.

    The alternative faced by Europeans throughout the Western world is to place themselves in a position of enormous vulnerability in which their destinies will be determined by other peoples, many of whom hold deep historically conditioned hatreds toward them. Europeans’ promotion of their own displacement is the ultimate foolishness—an historical mistake of catastrophic proportions.

    Now it is time for Europe to learn that cultural suicide is not right either.

    -“You need to face up to this and recognise it, instead of trying to project it on everyone else around you. If your pathology really was shared by the majority, then it would be reflected in government policy. However, government policy has definitively rejected coercion as an instrument of social organisation. This is why Martti Ahtisaari won the Nobel Peace Prize.”

    What you have to figure out is that today our representatives hardly represent us. Multiculturalism has been lauded as “progressive” by dominantly left leaning intellectual circles who are totally removed from reality.

    It is like those nature protectors who hail from urban conditions without any grasp of what it is like to live beyond Kehä 3.

    If you had bothered to actually strain those few braincells you possess, you would notice that I am constantly speaking of increasing awareness within population to detrimental effects of multiculturalism.

    It is ongoing process, one we are witnessing right now. People are getting fed up and tired of it. And slowly the political government policies are forced to adjust to it.

    Martti is totally distanced from reality. He does not live in the multicultural hell he supports. His “peace” process in Yugoslavia is, as I have noted before, failure. It never addressed underlying issues which caused the war, thus only serving to put blanket on issue and pretend it is not there.

    Popular “head in the sand”-attitude for “progressive” people. That is why he won peace price. He did not create peace, namely he achieved ceasefire with support of foreign militaries which took over in Yugoslavia.

    Reality is that unless immigrants start assimilating, they will face situation where coercion becomes tool to be used. And if that fails, there WILL be violence.

    It is natural progress in such situation. First native population tries to make other cultural power yield peacefully, if that fails they use violence.

    Question is how soon immigrants wake up from the illusion they are fed by few reality distanced politicians and understand that their wellbeing and wellbeing of their offspring depends on their assimilation to society.

    Sooner it takes place, less unpleasant the situation becomes. Longer it takes, more likely the violence is to appear.

    -“Progress depends on negotiation and mutual accommodation of genuinely conflicting needs and interests.”

    This is load of shit which presumes two things.

    1) That immigrants are willing to forfeit conflicting parts of their culture without being forced to
    2) That natives are willing to forfeit their culture in interest of immigrants

    Reality is that natives do not see their culture and identity to be subject to be traded and bartered away. It is THEIR ancestral homeland. Why the fuck would they give it up?

    And unlike in Americas, this time natives are not ones who do not have means to defend themselves by force if necessary.

    To give an example:

    This is Finland. We do NOT make women wear potato sacks. Tatars figured that out, time for other immigrants to understand it as well. And it is also place where men and women all swim in same pool at same time.
    Can’t handle men and women swimming in same pool at same time? Can’t handle women wearing shorts and skimpy clothes? Move back to wahabbistan, and do not let the door hit you in the ass while going.

  73. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    On se nii’ itestäämpitävä, ettei sem mualimassa ou kettääm muita

    You are quite obviously a supporter of violence, and would be even if you were bedridden. Your entire social approach reeks of coercive measures, and you have no conception of proportionality – the example of the bus protest showed that. It is very interesting that you tell some Moslem women over their own protests that they have been forced to choose their mode of dress. Will you also say that “we” do not PREVENT women from wearing potato sacks if that is what they freely choose to wear? How are you going to find out what the free choices of others are unless you put away the nightstick and engage in dialogue?

    The assertion that violence is “natural progress” displays a Stalinist mentality: it does not even occur to you that there can be reasonable and unreasonable pressure to conform and there must be a mechanism for determining what is reasonable.

    It is also clear that you have adopted the classical fascist-racist invective (complete with an inability to express yourself without expletives), but you merely avoid the direct association with skin colour and other specifically racial traits in order to sugarcoat the same message of hate. Why describe a mode of dress as a potato sack? Who are you, the fashion police? What business is it of yours? Is there some inherent superiority in the Finnish shell suits displayed at shopping centres and motoring service cafés up and down the country? Get a life.

    Isn’t it funny that the overwhelmingly clear political mainstream in Finland, the Nobel Prize process, dozens of international human rights treaties condemning racism and xenophobia signed and ratified by all of the countries in the civilised world, all of this could have been hijacked by the “progressive” people that you despise so much? Obviously these deluded fools are much more influential than you could ever hope to be.

    Incidentally, your analysis of the causes of World War II is facile in the extreme. As for the attempt to posit a neoDarwinist analysis of culture, since when is culture a specifically defined organic entity propagated through discretely coded information?

    How many Somali friends do you have? I’ll bet not even one.

    Perhaps you were bullied at preschool? I am still wondering what the source of your evident pathology could be.

  74. Observer

    Hi everybody,
    Tiwaz, Multiculturism is a word with no sense, everybody used it how he wants. Honestly, what you are writing here is just a simple translation of Halla Aho’s papers, nothing more! He was the first who introduce this Multiculturism “virus” and take the debate about to this level. Thus, before, Locals justified the discrimination by other comments”They took our jobs, our girls, our money etc..”. I mean people are always looking for more logical reasons to justify their hate towards the minorities, this simple!
    Halla-Aho has inspired his Multiculturism debate from his collegues in Europe, those who present the extreme right- wings, that in fact , is a total different stories from what is happening in Finland. The extreme right-wings parties there cannot afford any solutions to provide security to minorities, thus the solution is: Ethnocide, and warn the public about the ” virtual” disease of Multiculturism. And this can be a good way to get the public support and suck the anger about the economical crisis.
    The way you warn about the Multiculturism can lead only to a new Holocaust indeed!

  75. Tiwaz

    -“You are quite obviously a supporter of violence, and would be even if you were bedridden. Your entire social approach reeks of coercive measures, and you have no conception of proportionality – the example of the bus protest showed that. It is very interesting that you tell some Moslem women over their own protests that they have been forced to choose their mode of dress. Will you also say that “we” do not PREVENT women from wearing potato sacks if that is what they freely choose to wear? How are you going to find out what the free choices of others are unless you put away the nightstick and engage in dialogue?”

    Where did I say that women are prevented from wearing anything they want? In fact, it is one of FREEDOMS Finland offers.

    How many women wear those potato sacks out of their own, free and untwisted will? Very few. Most are pushed to it by their environment. As seen when younger generations of women in Europe abandon culture of their parents.

    All too often just to be murdered for “shaming the family”.
    Read up, this is what takes place in Europe in ever increasing rate.

    What is proportionality? When you speak of it it reeks of appeasement. Finns must not cause confrontation, Finns must adjust. In essence, to you proportionality means that immigrants must not be held to common rules, that they are above the natives who MUST obey the rules.

    -“The assertion that violence is “natural progress” displays a Stalinist mentality: it does not even occur to you that there can be reasonable and unreasonable pressure to conform and there must be a mechanism for determining what is reasonable.”

    It does not occur to you that when your “reasonable” pressure fails, there WILL be raise of your “unreasonable” pressure.

    That is what I have said from day one, immigrants must accept that they must yield their cultural norms to adjust to society they move into. Failure to do so will not result in anything pretty.

    -“It is also clear that you have adopted the classical fascist-racist invective (complete with an inability to express yourself without expletives), but you merely avoid the direct association with skin colour and other specifically racial traits in order to sugarcoat the same message of hate. Why describe a mode of dress as a potato sack? Who are you, the fashion police? What business is it of yours? Is there some inherent superiority in the Finnish shell suits displayed at shopping centres and motoring service cafés up and down the country? Get a life.”

    Because it is potato sack. It resembles nothing as much as that. As for superiority of Finnish culture and society. Look at which one is more advanced in every field. These potato sack-cultures or Finnish one.

    What Finns wear they wear out of their own free will. Nobody makes threats to them or pressure on them to wear it.
    Some wear “shell suits”, others bikini. Or perhaps miniskirt. Or shorts.

    Without oil supplies, their societies are medieval hellholes with oppressive regimes.

    -“Isn’t it funny that the overwhelmingly clear political mainstream in Finland, the Nobel Prize process, dozens of international human rights treaties condemning racism and xenophobia signed and ratified by all of the countries in the civilised world, all of this could have been hijacked by the “progressive” people that you despise so much? Obviously these deluded fools are much more influential than you could ever hope to be.”

    And this mainstream is shifting to right. As Finns grow tired of being told to appease immigrants and that immigrants should not be held accountable for their actions and all the shit you present.

    Things you describe are good, indeed, but their application has failed. It has lost it’s way, multiculturalism even as failure has become purpose of society. People who are distanced from problems it causes keep pushing it forward blind to reality. Not to mention how multiculturalism has come to mean appeasement of immigrants at cost of natives.

    Like communism. Those who were driving it forward were not ones suffering from it. And we know what happened to communism.

    -“The way you warn about the Multiculturism can lead only to a new Holocaust indeed!”

    Again person who hides head in sand. WAKE UP!
    NOBODY wants foreigners to come to their country and act as if they own the place.

    Pretending that immigrants trying to force their ways to countries they immigrate to is not a problem is short sighted policy.

    Read more about what is going on in the world, on the root levels where problems from multiculturalism reside.

    Of course politicians pretend that problem does not exist. They do not live in the areas where immigrants of incompatible cultural background form notable percentage of population.

    When immigrants do not adjust to society they move into, but even show open contempt to it’s principles. It is going to end up in conflict.

  76. Tiwaz

    Biggest problem with multiculturalism is indeed that it is seen as reason that immigrants and minorities may not be criticized, that they must not be held accountable for their breaches of law or tradition.

    This only ensures that native population will dislike them even more.

    Guess what I have lately noticed when going shopping? That indeed minorities think rules do not apply to them. These days, children may not be transported in shopping cart in section where food is kept. This is for hygienic reasons and started with bird flu.

    Yet, on last two visits to store to start with I saw no less than 2 representatives of minority to flaunt against this practice. Majority population kept their offspring out from carts.

  77. Tiwaz

    Demon, if I were you I would leave psychoanalysis to someone more qualified. Your pathetic attempts are not even funny.

    I’m making my own psychoanalysys. I am analyzing that you are humanist leftist who has not done honest job for single day in his life, leaving you able to spend more time on concentrating on excellence of your pet ideology while failing to understand how actual real world works.

    By the way, your example of busdriver. Why it is FINNS who must yield to prevent confrontation? In your example it was the immigrant who was trying to force confrontation by refusing to play by common rules.

    I guess this is again sign that immigrants should not be held to rules which bound the natives but rather be considered superior breed which can choose what rules they obey.

    To the actual topic here.

    Enrique was wondering if minorities are overrepresented in crime statistics because they get extra attention from police.

    Now let us look at one of long term minorities, the Roma.

    10 000 of them in Finland. Around half of them unemployed and vast majority never progress beyond mandatory schools.
    Is this fault of Finns? No.

    Roma culture just does not grasp need for school. Kids are not put to bed early enough to make them able to wake up early enough to get to school. Nor do they bother make sure their offspring does their homework.

    And after that, they fail to APPLY for schools after their mandatory school stint is over. No wonder that they end up on the dole and criminal activities become more common when there is nothing more useful to do.

    Failure here rests not on Finns, but Roma society and Roma culture.

    As for Roma getting extra attention. There are 10 000 Roma out of odd 5 million Finns (4,8million who speak Finnish as native and 280k Swedish speakers).

    Which gives us ratio of 1/500 for Roma out of population.

    However, when we look at study on rates of robberies in Finland in 2005 we notice that Roma are suspects for 18% of these crimes. Somali 12%.
    http://www.optula.om.fi/uploads/gtdiy5wfbcaf939.pdf

    You should notice that this is study performed by Oikeuspoliittinen Tutkimuslaitos (The National Research Institute of Legal Policy).

    So, Roma are suspects in 18%, or nearly one fifth, of robberies but represent less than one percent of population.

    Only way for them NOT to be overrepresented seriously would be that this one 1/5 was actually 1/500 of crime and somehow only one in hundred robberies were reported, and ALL those who are not reported are native Finns.

    Not very likely…

    Or alternatively there is huge conspiracy where Finns who are robbed by other Finns decide to blame Somali or Roma instead of fellow Finn for sake of conspiracy.

    Again, very far fetched theory.

    So answer to question of Enrique. No, minorities are not overrepresented because they are harassed. Minorities are overrepresented because they commit disproportionate amount of crime.

    And when looking at what groups are responsible, we can see that those who are least assimilated to society, instead remaining culturally segregated group (in finest tradition of multiculturalism) are ones who are most likely to be disproportionately criminal.

  78. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    Without oil supplies, their societies are medieval hellholes with oppressive regimes.

    How was the Library of Constantinople destroyed? How about the House of Wisdom at the Academy of Gundishapur in Baghdad? How on earth could such a collection have arisen in the first place in this mediaeval hellhole? How about the Library of Pergamum, the Library of Alexandria, or the Royal Library of Ashurbanipal? When was the first library established in Finland?

    These centres of culture and civilisation were renowned throughout the known world at a time when the zenith of Finnish literature was the rock paintings at Astuvansalmi.

    It would be a great deal more accurate to say that without oil supplies Finland would be a mediaeval hellhole, n’est-ce pas?

  79. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz:

    when we look at study on rates of robberies in Finland in 2005 we notice that Roma are suspects for 18% of these crimes

    Tiwaz:

    This is again nearly 0-value research, same as study where they asked Somali about them being victims of racism.

    There is woeful lack of objective confirmation of results. This is just PERCEPTIONS … which is taken as Holy Truth.

    Your Stalinist perspective blinds you even to your own contradictions, Tiwaz. Are there any intelligent people who take your fascist line, or are you the sharpest knife in the IKL drawer?

  80. Tiwaz

    -“How was the Library of Constantinople destroyed? How about the House of Wisdom at the Academy of Gundishapur in Baghdad? How on earth could such a collection have arisen in the first place in this mediaeval hellhole? How about the Library of Pergamum, the Library of Alexandria, or the Royal Library of Ashurbanipal? When was the first library established in Finland?”

    Yay! So defence for those medieval hellholes is that they were not always medieval hellholes! Except, you forget that TODAY THEY ARE!

    They are ass backwards and have not made significant contribution to humanity for centuries. Not scientifically, not ideologically…


    These centres of culture and civilisation were renowned throughout the known world at a time when the zenith of Finnish literature was the rock paintings at Astuvansalmi.”

    And then they got stuck to that date 1000AD
    Guess what, we Finns got to 21st century already.

    Which I would prefer…. To be living with memories of grand past, while reliving it today, or live in society which goes forward…

    Oh yes, I prefer one that did not get stuck on medieval ages.

    Let us put this on analogy. Your beloved ME is Ford Model T. Pinnacle of achievement in it’s time and truly historical example.

    Finland is Toyota Avensis. It is not historical, it is not above all else old. But it represents today instead of past. And unlike T-model which had it’s engine blown up ages ago…

    Toyota works.


    It would be a great deal more accurate to say that without oil supplies Finland would be a mediaeval hellhole, n’est-ce pas?”

    Impossible to tell. There are other energy sources besides oil.

    But it does not change fact that those areas are backwards and lack any progress.

  81. Tiwaz

    -“Your Stalinist perspective blinds you even to your own contradictions, Tiwaz. Are there any intelligent people who take your fascist line, or are you the sharpest knife in the IKL drawer?”

    I see you again cannot argue the argument, no surprise since your position is one that cannot be held with facts but only through power of bullshit.

    Prove that Roma indeed did NOT commit 18% of robberies in 2005. Are you preferring the line that only 1/100 crimes are reported or that Finns have this huge conspiracy to blame Roma for crimes they did not commit?

    Or are you just in opinion that neither hold true but minorities still must never be criticized no matter what they do… Their feelings might be hurt! Even their disproportionate crimerates must be looked through fingers.

    How about going to your own little marxist/greeniehippie gathering to live off the dole and talk to others like yourself how excellent you are.

  82. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz

    Either subjective perceptions are a guide to social phenomena or they are not. If the findings of a survey of Moslems in Europe is of zero value because these are merely subjective perceptions, then statistics on the perceived ethnicity of crime suspects are similarly of zero value. As I said, you need to make your mind up and stop choosing your methodology casuistically to suit a Stalinist bias.

    As for the challenge to prove a negative, nice one Tiwaz

  83. JusticeDemon

    Stop shifting the goalposts, Tiwaz.

    You said this:

    Without oil supplies, their societies are medieval hellholes with oppressive regimes.

    So I took you to a period when the oil reserves under the Middle-East were of no economic relevance and we discover that, free from external interference, this region became the cradle of civilisation. By contrast, and free from external interference, Finland remained a region of peasant farmers with no culture to speak of until this was imported from elsewhere.

    It is probably fair to argue that social change in the Middle-East over the last century has been retarded and distorted precisely because of energy reserves and the associated power politics that dominate the agenda in this region, but I wouldn’t expect the likes of you to have the nous to appreciate this point, even as you argue elsewhere that political progress in Finland was retarded and distorted by relations with the USSR until at least 1984.

  84. Tony Garcia

    What a interesting report…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/5994047/Muslim-Europe-the-demographic-time-bomb-transforming-our-continent.html

    “Britain and the rest of the European Union are ignoring a demographic time bomb: a recent rush into the EU by migrants, including millions of Muslims, will change the continent beyond recognition over the next two decades, and almost no policy-makers are talking about it.”

    “The numbers are startling. Only 3.2 per cent of Spain’s population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent. Europe’s Muslim population has more than doubled in the past 30 years and will have doubled again by 2015. In Brussels, the top seven baby boys’ names recently were Mohamed, Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza.”

    “The altered population mix has far-reaching implications for education, housing, welfare, labour, the arts and everything in between. It could have a critical impact on foreign policy: a study was submitted to the US Air Force on how America’s relationship with Europe might evolve. Yet EU officials admit that these issues are not receiving the attention they deserve.”

    “America’s Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, part of the non-partisan Pew Research Center, said in a report: “These [EU] countries possess deep historical, cultural, religious and linguistic traditions. Injecting hundreds of thousands, and in some cases millions, of people who look, speak and act differently into these settings often makes for a difficult social fit.””

    “The population changes are stirring unease on the ground. Europeans often tell pollsters that they have had enough immigration, but politicians largely avoid debate.”

    But hey, let’s just label this as right-wing, xenophobic, islamophobic, racist nonsense. It usually works…

  85. Tiwaz

    -“Either subjective perceptions are a guide to social phenomena or they are not. If the findings of a survey of Moslems in Europe is of zero value because these are merely subjective perceptions, then statistics on the perceived ethnicity of crime suspects are similarly of zero value. As I said, you need to make your mind up and stop choosing your methodology casuistically to suit a Stalinist bias.”

    Subjective perception on racism is irrelevant. Asking Somali if they are victim of racism without actually getting any evidence on this makes it worthless. What actually is racist? For many immigrants it appears that anything that does not go their way right away is racism.

    However, OFFICIAL crime statistics are not subjective.
    Robbery is clearly defined crime in Finnish laws. And groups responsible are clearly identifiable thanks to their obvious differences from native population. This is thanks to their insistence to be segregated.

    Unless you can somehow prove that there is huge Finnish conspiracy where Somali and/or Roma are blamed even when innocent.

    Thus, my both points are valid. One study is relying on personal perceptions, other is dependent on laws.

    Alternatively you can go ahead and prove that somehow statistics on suspects somehow is flawed compared to actual guilty parties, but considering high level of competence in Finnish police and legal system you are not going to find it.

    -“So I took you to a period when the oil reserves under the Middle-East were of no economic relevance and we discover that, free from external interference, this region became the cradle of civilisation. By contrast, and free from external interference, Finland remained a region of peasant farmers with no culture to speak of until this was imported from elsewhere.”

    And you took age period which is far in history. Do you realize that oil has not been essential part of economy until very recently? However, Middle Eastern societies have been left behind the train of progress far BEFORE oil became essential commodity.

    As for your idiocy on Finland, apparently you are an idiot.

    Here, educate thyself:

    cul·ture (klchr)
    n.
    1.
    [b]a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
    b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
    c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
    d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.[/b]
    2. Intellectual and artistic activity and the works produced by it.
    3.
    a. Development of the intellect through training or education.
    b. Enlightenment resulting from such training or education.
    4. A high degree of taste and refinement formed by aesthetic and intellectual training.
    5. Special training and development: voice culture for singers and actors.
    6. The cultivation of soil; tillage.
    7. The breeding of animals or growing of plants, especially to produce improved stock.
    8. Biology
    a. The growing of microorganisms, tissue cells, or other living matter in a specially prepared nutrient medium.
    b. Such a growth or colony, as of bacteria.
    tr.v. cul·tured, cul·tur·ing, cul·tures
    1. To cultivate.
    2.
    a. To grow (microorganisms or other living matter) in a specially prepared nutrient medium.
    b. To use (a substance) as a medium for culture: culture milk.

    You claim these things did not exist in Finland until they were brought to poor Neanderthals here who only knew “Me bash!”

    Realitycheck, Finnish culture actually is very old. Swedes and Russians did very little to bring “culture” to Finland. Both were content to leave Finns live their lives as they always had as long as taxes were paid and soldiers were sent.

    “It is probably fair to argue that social change in the Middle-East over the last century has been retarded and distorted precisely because of energy reserves and the associated power politics that dominate the agenda in this region, but I wouldn’t expect the likes of you to have the nous to appreciate this point, even as you argue elsewhere that political progress in Finland was retarded and distorted by relations with the USSR until at least 1984.”

    Except you fail to grasp that they were left behind far before oil became essential commodity.

    In Middle Ages, Middle East was at it’s golden age. Having preserved knowledge lost in Europe in some of the libraries you mention and for it’s time reasonably liberal society permitted high level of advancement.

    But by end of Middle ages, and this was age when oil was not essential commodity, they were still stuck where they had been but Europe was going rapidly forward with Renaissance era boosting it forward to what is called Modern age.

    While Islamic world from 13th century (some claim 15th century) onwards failed to progress.

    Where was need for oil during 16th century? Nowhere!
    Need for oil in large scale would only begin at 19th century and importance of Middle East for it would wait for 20th century.
    Yet Islamic world was stuck in past.

    And in that decline they have remained ever since. Perhaps some day they will come up again, but my concern is for today and immediate future.

  86. De Tant Blomhat

    Justice Demon – AFAIK a WPC has one of those funny bowler hats or a trilby with a checkerboard when shes on duty “in uniform”. And an officer in uniform also wears shoes. So the “uniform” is on a visit for a reason and if they come in then tough… even as a Finn I’ve had the police and fire department visit into my house and you know if I’d started complaining about shoes then I’d been beaten black and blue. A novel idea – if you do not want visits by the police, then give no reason for them to visit.

    BTW in the case of the bus driver, the law states you must either remove hindering objects from the road or inform the police first marking the object so other road users won’t hit it.

  87. De Tant Blomhat

    And Justice Demon, I think its haram anyways to ride a bus as it has traffic insurance, and insurance is gamnbling.

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