Polls are polls in Finland

by , under All categories, Enrique

The recent rise of the anti-immigration True Finns in the polls should be taken with a generous dose of salt. Does it represent the will of the people and how much of it will translate into MPs for the True Finns in the April 2011 elections is another story.

What is interesting, however, is how the other parties are reacting to the poll results.

In many respects the polls have helped a lot of extremist views to get out of the closet. Such people mistakenly believe that it is now normal to have far-right views on matters such as immigration since the “polls tell us that we are no longer a small minority.”

Some members of the left are labelling the True Finns a fascist party while those in the right like to call them populists.  What about if we called them an anti-immigration party that does not like anything foreign? By foreign I mean the EU, immigrants, diversity etc. Is that the type of Finland Finns want to build in the future? I doubt it.

There are many reasons why the True Finns have fared well in the polls. The recession is a key factor as well as the scandals that have ridden Finland’s ruling political parties.

Should we be worried about the rise of xenophobia in Finland? Certainly yes. Is it a problem? Not really but could become one if we continue to give it more attention than is necessary. In every society there will be extremists. The best defense against these radical groups is our democratic liberal system that permits freedom of speech no matter how outrageous their message is.

A lot of things can happen until the April elections. One matter is for certain: The extremists of the True Finns party are a minority in every sense of the word.

Their dubious success does not depend on their message but on our reaction to it.

Keep a cool head, Finland.

  1. finn

    True Finns don’t like anything that’s not Finnish inside Finland. Why is it so difficult to understand? They are not against (any) immigration. They are not against emigration. They are not too sympathetic towards everyone but they are realists. They are within the law and ethics.

    You are making up monsters.

    • Enrique

      Hi finn, you said it I didn’t: True Finns don’t like anything that’s not Finnish inside Finland.

      Sorry, but your reasoning does not make sense. You state that they don’t like anything that not Finnish inside Finland but are not against immigration? Having acquainted myself with so much stuff of the True Finns, this is an example of double-talk. I am not making up monsters. I am simply exposing them. And the monster I am exposing is a tiny one.

      An addition: When you state that the True Finns don’like anything that’s not Finnish, what are you talking about? Do you mean their view of what is Finnish?

  2. Tony Garcia

    Two days ago you said…

    “The only threat I see to our society are the far-right anti-immigration wing of the True Finns.”

    Now you go back to the usual “the anti-immigration True Finns”

    Before we engage in any further debate could you please clarify witch of the above comments is wrong? Please clarify if, in your opinion, the True Finns as a whole is anti-immigration or only a wing of it?

    • Enrique

      Yes, Tony, I believe that the real threat is the far-right wing of the True Finns. In general, the True Finns want Finland to leave the EU, sever ties with other countries, stop taking refugees… In essence they want to shut off the country from the world. Don’t you think that this is a threat to the country? What will it do to our trade relations?

      The True Finns are basically an anti-immigration party. They may use red herrings like Muslims to disguise their unclear stand on excluding everyone else.

      What do you think? Do you think it is unfair to classify the True Finns as anti-immigration?

  3. JusticeDemon

    Take away everything that’s not Finnish in modern Finland and you are left with, err…

    err…

    Kalakukko, and…

    err…

    That’s about it really.

    So we need to modify the definition a little bit: The True Finns don’t like anything that’s not Finnish, unless it’s been in Finland so long that poorly educated people are unaware of its foreign origins.

    Fewer than 0.1 per cent of human beings have ever been Finns at any point in history. Without foreign influences modern Finland would simply not exist. That includes the biological origins of most of the population. The only thing that’s changed is that a modern Oiva Adolfsen no longer needs to change his name in order to indulge the prejudices of the narrow minded.

    • Enrique

      Knowing JusticeDemon, the last thing he is trying to be is superior. He made a very valid point. If you agree and know that cultures have always interacted, it is pretty sinister to go around excluding others because you claim to be the “true Finn.”

  4. JusticeDemon

    finn

    I’ll take your word for it.

    The point is purely general. Fewer than 0.01 per cent of human beings have ever been Icelanders at any point in history. Fewer than 20 per cent have ever been Chinese. To the extent that Icelanders and Chinese participate in a global economy of value and ideas, it is inevitable that most of the values and ideas in modern Icelandic or Chinese culture and society will ultimately be of foreign origin.

    No country or culture has wholly monopolised human progress in any sense, nor is it necessary for any educated liberal culture to perpetrate a myth of having done so.

  5. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique two statements that stood out from your article.

    -‘Should we be worried about the rise of xenophobia in Finland? Certainly yes. Is it a problem? Not really but could become one if we continue to give it more attention than is necessary.’

    So now your saying Finland is not xenophobic yet? In the recent past you have said that Finland is NOT a land of opportunities for immigrants and that employers are highly discriminating against foreigners. These comments suggest Finland is xenophobic in your opinion. Make up your mind please.

    -‘The best defense against these radical groups is our democratic liberal system that permits freedom of speech no matter how outrageous their message is.’

    So now liberal freedom of speech is a good thing? You and Tony have had numerous debates in this very blog only a few days ago about this very topic with you promoting that freedom of speech should be controlled. Again make up your mind please.

    It seems you change your argument depending on what side of the bed you wake up from. Show some consistency even if I disagree with your stance.

    • Enrique

      You are anonymously funny, Klay. Maybe I should say political parties are xenophobic like the True Finns and some sectors of society. If you are studying for your doctoral dissertation, you should at least understand the danger of making generatlizations.

      With respect to freedom of speech, who says that I am against that? There are certain guidelines that journalists learn about what is appropriate or not when attacking somebody. Maybe this will help you: When I was a journalist at the Buenos Aires Herald, I learned from an edior that words are a strong weapon. If you go into overkill mode you show very poor judgement and are unfair. That is a good hint for you and all the others that enjoy bashing some groups for fun. There is also fairness when a person writes a story, not going into Rambo mode and killing everyone in sight.

      Even if we disagree with some of your views on immigration, nobody is censoring you. So, Klay, stop whining.

  6. finn

    @JusticeDemon All I see is that you assert everybody who doesn’t share your exact definition of a word is “uneducated”. Congratulations, wisest human.

    • Enrique

      finn, don’t run away and accuse him of “blablabla” becuase “if somebody does not agree with you.”

      Show him that he’s wrong. That all cultures grew up separate and never mixed. The reason why you cannot say so is because if you agreed your view of other cultures would collapse on the floor after it was cut from the knees.

  7. Tony Garcia

    “finn, don’t run away and accuse him of “blablabla”… “Show him that he’s wrong.”

    This coming from you is funny to say the least…

  8. finn

    I don’t see why I should disprove his vagueness.

    What I’ve been trying to discreetly point out is that in my rhetoric being Finnish does not mean originating from Finland. It means fitting in the Finnish society. You know, having respect towards basic Finnish customs, speaking the language, supporting yourself and paying taxes. It doesn’t take a lot.

    Of course people of exceptional skill should be given residence permits and a path to naturalisation. I would welcome the dirty rich too but they don’t seem willing.

    • Enrique

      –It means fitting in the Finnish society. You know, having respect towards basic Finnish customs, speaking the language, supporting yourself and paying taxes. It doesn’t take a lot.

      –Respect for basic Finnish customs.
      What is that? Do you think all other cultures are disrespectful?

      –speaking the language, supporting yourself and paying taxes.
      There are a lot of people who live off welfare. Do they lose their identity as Finns? This, in my opinion, shows great arrogance on your behalf.

      So I will tell all those who are unemployed, living off welfare, that they are destitute. Why do you think we have social welfare in Finland.

  9. Vedos

    JusticeDemon’s point is of course very common and used often. What seems to escape from people who make such points is, that it applies to most of the known world.

    It seems, though JusticeDemon understands this when he takes on China and Iceland, while he seems to think there’s been a time of “none foreign origin”, which seems weird to me, because any progress always comes from exchange. Exchange needs diversity. Now, in exchange there are rules that are more complex, but generally looking, in exchange, there are always at least two sides, and both seek to get highest possible benefits from the exchange. Ok, let’s look at the modern multiculturalism. Who benefits from it and how?

    Please enlight me. And don’t say the middle aged people need someone to wipe their asses, It’s clearly problem they created all by themselves and it’ll autosolve and should not be paid by the ones that come after them. It all reflects to where do you think Finland is going. What do you think?

    Way I see it, in couple of decades, in Finland there will be two types of people: consultants and their servants (or slaves if you will). There will be a culture of high paid shit talkers and social climbers. The public sector is bloated and inefficient with jobs that are more like daycare for adults. Technology will propably solve alot of the most physical jobs. Trains, buses or such will not need drivers. Robots do the cleaning, even the need for doctors has plummeted. Schools are out, freetime will be maxed. Of course it might not be like that, but the babyboomer effect does not yet apply either. Both “we need immigrants to wipe our parents asses, because they did not have enough sex” and “we don’t need immigrants to wipe our parents asses, because they propably can do it themselves or there will be a robot to do that and most of all, why should it even be our problem?”, are only predictions. We can’t make politics on predictions, we have to make them on what is now. If there’s a demand, it’ll be met when the time comes.

    The point you (JusticeDemon) made is general. But if we look at things generally, wouldn’t you also then agree, that saving a small percentage of suffering people of the world does not generally solve any kind of humanitarian problem?

    You state:

    “No country or culture has wholly monopolised human progress in any sense, nor is it necessary for any educated liberal culture to perpetrate a myth of having done so.”

    From the same, general point of view you could also state:

    “No country or culture has wholly monopolised a cure for human suffering in any sense, nor is it necessary for any educated liberal culture to perpetrate a myth of having done so.”

    But you wont. Why? My guess is, what it always boils down to, is values: “Studies show bla bla bla, biology dictates bla bla bla, genetic bla IQ tests bla, thats why I feel the right way is to bla bla bla”

    Now, we can all agree there are people with different values in any society and values – want it or not – are not avoid of change, even though they are inherited and sometimes hang around places and stand in the way of common sense, where they are not needed.

    • Enrique

      By inherited do you mean genetically?

      True, maybe robots will play a more important role in out society. But do you want to live in a society that has one third of the population retired and is run by robots. The sad thing is that demographic matters will get worse. Blame the Finns and blame the short-sightedness of the authorities who have more than often had a reticent attitude towards foreigners. This is now changing but it is too late. Either foreigners, Finns or why not yourself will have to end up cleaning yourself. That very attitude that immigration is a threat has turned into a threat that is turning Finland towards becoming a gerontocracy.

      A nation comprising mostly of young people is a million times better than one made up of elders. Just come up to Etelä-Savo and visit some municipalities like Sulkava and you will know what I am talking about. The future is already here.

  10. finn

    – There are a lot of people who live off welfare. Do they lose their identity as Finns? This, in my opinion, shows great arrogance on your behalf.

    No.

    – So I will tell all those who are unemployed, living off welfare, that they are destitute. Why do you think we have social welfare in Finland.

    To take care of Finnish citizens. But just because you can live off them doesn’t mean you should. Duties and blah blah.

    • Enrique

      –To take care of Finnish citizens. But just because you can live off them doesn’t mean you should. Duties and blah blah.

      Please show me where that is written in the laws of this land. In other words, you will now show us a law that we are unfamiliar with that only grants social welfare to Finns.

      Thank you.

  11. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘The sad thing is that demographic matters will get worse. Blame the Finns and blame the short-sightedness of the authorities who have more than often had a reticent attitude towards foreigners.’

    Enrique, Germany has 10.1 million immigrants (3rd largest in the World) and that’s not including naturalised foreigners yet has a older population age and a lower birth rate than Finland. So explain to me how immigrants solved their ageing population dilemma? This phenomenon is occurring in nearly every developed country regardless of their immigrant composition.

    • Enrique

      In 2007 17% of Finns were over 65 years old. By 2040 it will reach over 30%. Does Germany have an older population than Finland?

  12. xyz

    Since tourism is very important for Finland in the future, I was wondering which tourist would be interested to visit a country where the population is not able to deal with other nationalities?

    “Tourism industry enterprises need multi-skilled employees with good professional skills,
    the ability to serve demanding customers, and skills in foreign cultures and languages.”

    “As the generations diminish in size, the supply of workforce will not suffice. The tourism
    industry therefore needs work-based immigrants. In fact, in the years to come there will
    be competition over skilled foreign workforce. Finland must have a strategy for
    attracting work-based immigrants.”

    http://www.mek.fi/w5/meken/index.nsf/(images)/Finlands_Tourism_Strategy_to_2020/$File/Finlands_Tourism_Strategy_to_2020.pdf

    I suppose that this can also be transfered to other industries.

  13. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique, the difference between an immigrant claiming welfare and a Finn doing the same is that in the majority of cases (Non-EU) of immigrants Finland could have avoided them entering the country in the first place. If you allow people into your country who are illiterate in their own language it’s no suprise they end up on the dole. A situation and problem that could have easily been evaded.

    In every society there will be those who are successful and those who aren’t no matter how the economy and society is run. So to point to Finns who are on welfare as an excuse for immigrants doing the same is no better than saying an immigrant can murder someone as a few Finns have done the same.

    • Enrique

      –If you allow people into your country who are illiterate in their own language it’s no suprise they end up on the dole.

      Klay, are all foreigners in Finland who are on the dole illiterate? If some are how many and what type of literacy are you speaking of?

  14. JusticeDemon

    finn

    After taking me to task over definitions, you offered your own and Ricky punched a large hole in it without breaking a sweat.

    However, you also haven’t deflected the original point. Almost everything in Finland (human beings, values, ideas) came to Finland at some time from outside. At the time of arrival NONE of these things passed your arbitrary Finnishness test (which you were never authorised to set in the first place). ALL of these developments were initially resisted by people just like you, who have “seen many changes and opposed them all”. The problem is your mindset.

    Fortunately these painfully shy introverted personality types are increasingly rare in this country nowadays, and that’s partly because we no longer lose our more adventurous and outgoing young men and women to emigration.

    • Enrique

      Finn, another point: your view that only Finns are entitled to social welfare is more proof for me that the True Finns don’t care about equality, our Constitution and laws. Instead they would want to change these laws to create an unequal society where people would be discriminated because of their background.

      Can you see the huge mistake in your thinking and that of the True Finns? Do you see how deficient your knowledge of your own laws are? And on top of that you are placing standards on people whom you do not even know. Shame on you.

  15. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Enrique, Germany has 10.1 million immigrants (3rd largest in the World) and that’s not including naturalised foreigners yet has a older population age and a lower birth rate than Finland. So explain to me how immigrants solved their ageing population dilemma? This phenomenon is occurring in nearly every developed country regardless of their immigrant composition.

    So I understand that from now on you will be the first to correct some of the comments on this blog about an alleged immigrant breeding strategy to pervert democracy?

    • Enrique

      Interesting point. Does this suggest that Germany’s demographic problems are older? A lot of people got killed duirng World War 2. Were immigration birthrtates high? Did Germany take in a lot of immigrants during the 1960s and 1970s and then it slowed considerably? What would have happened to the age strcture of the country if no immigrants came? We did have a baby boom after the war in the end of the 1940s in Finland. After than birthrates went down.

      Let me look into this matter a little bit more.

  16. JusticeDemon

    Vedos

    Your post rambles quite a bit (perhaps it’s really a vedos and not a finished idea), but you clearly agree with me on the trivial point that all modern societies owe their ongoing modernity to interaction with outside influences. There is no need to assume that this feature must have any no foreign origin starting point, and I did not assert this.

    Your third and fourth paragraphs are largely a dialogue with yourself, but you did say this:

    We can’t make politics on predictions, we have to make them on what is now. If there’s a demand, it’ll be met when the time comes.

    Public policy is always by definition formulated for future application. This is why governments devote considerable resources to research and strategic planning. This is most certainly not guesswork. Population forecasts, for example, are firmly based on current demographic data. There is an obvious link between the current birth rate and the need for public educational services and certain health services in coming decades.

    It’s called wise forward planning, and it’s the precise opposite of trying to respond to demand as it arises. Such planning requires governments to forecast demand in order to ensure that the corresponding public service provision is not prohibitively costly or otherwise inexpedient.

    You made a certain substitution as follows and claimed that I would argue otherwise:

    “No country or culture has wholly monopolised a cure for human suffering in any sense, nor is it necessary for any educated liberal culture to perpetrate a myth of having done so.”

    Given the evident similarity between human progress (the phrase that I used) and your substitution of a cure for human suffering, I can’t see why you think I should object to this. My version is simply more general than yours, and I can see no objection to this narrower assertion, other than to point out that there is more to progress than merely preventing suffering. Unless you are a Calvinist, of course, and that’s a whole other can of worms.

  17. Tony Garcia

    “In 2007 17% of Finns were over 65 years old. By 2040 it will reach over 30%.”

    I’m confused…

    Doesn’t this same birthrate trend projects a Muslim majority population in Europe in just a few generation, but has been dismissed here as unreliable because birthrates trends changes?

    • Enrique

      –Doesn’t this same birthrate trend projects a Muslim majority population in Europe in just a few generation, but has been dismissed here as unreliable because birthrates trends changes?

      They are official from Statistics Finland. Birthrates vary from generation to generation. Certainly predicting the future is always difficult. However, a long time ago birthrates were seen as a way of measuring how well a family had integrated into a society. If they came from societies with low birth rates and had big families it suggested greater adaption.

      I don’t know if this type of measurement is anymore valid. However, I would think that as a group adapts/integrates to society birth rate could be a factor. In other words, you cannot state that since a group has high birthrate it will have the same rate two or three generations down the road. Predicting this is a bit like forecasting the future. However, the official statistics are based on present trends.

  18. Tony Garcia

    Very well, my point is well valid then. Both scenarios, an ageing Finnish population and a majority Muslim population, are possible but not necessary true.

    So as any responsible society, the government must take in consideration both predictions and work for preventing it from happening.

    • Enrique

      –So as any responsible society, the government must take in consideration both predictions and work for preventing it from happening.

      Do you have any valid, official, estimates of how much certain minorities will grow in Europe due to birthrates? I would not pay too much time on those who believe that we are going to be run by certain groups because of high birthrates.

  19. Tony Garcia

    I don’t understand, if low birth rates is a matter of concern because it can, not necessary will, age the population, why high birth rate from one group against low birth rate from another can’t, again not necessary will, make the first group larger then the second?

    Maybe because using demography to promote immigration, particularly from Africa and Middle East, (the best tool for social reengineering Finland) is something we want to do, however using the same method to alert the people about the possibility of this very same social reengineering is something that we prefer not to do.

    Maybe we could use controlled freedom of speech to prevent demography from be analyzed in the wrong way…

    • Enrique

      –Maybe we could use controlled freedom of speech to prevent demography from be analyzed in the wrong way…

      Well, I asked you to put forth reliable estiamtes. Could you please do so. Since the far-right uses the high-birthrate argument to show how we are going to be taken over (calculator futurology), to make it fair why don’t you give us a neutral source like a university or an official government agency to prove you point.

    • Enrique

      Charly Chaplin speaks. I highly recommended it. Even though it was filmed many decades ago, it is basically true. The same problems continue to inflict humanity.

  20. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony the biggest issue in my opinion over the next 10 years or so is not the birth rates of Muslims or Indigenous Europeans even though that is a concern but whether Turkey joins the EU or not.

    If they are allowed in then 72.5 million people will be unleashed and have free access to Europe without any restrictions and that’s a scary prospect. We have already seen how well they integrate into European society in Germany with disastrous effects. Then Islam being the dominant religion in Europe is going to be inevitable a few decades after that.

    If that were to happen with Turkey joining the EU, the best solution for Finland would be to pull out of the EU before it’s small population gets swamped. As Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland have managed fine without the EU I’m sure Finland would do the same. As well as already being part of the Schengen Agreement, Finland could join the European Free Trade Association and European Economic Area meaning trading with EU countries wouldn’t be adversely affected.

  21. xyz

    I love this movie. In Germany you visit a concentration camp when you are in school. I think when you have once seen such a camp you may realize how bad life was at those days for certain minority groups. I suppose for many of those minority groups there was only the option to move to another country.

    • Enrique

      I visited Auschwitz I and II a while back. One of the matters that impressed me most about that camp was one of its former commandants, Rudolf Höss, who said that the reason he was able to kill so many people was because if he did not do it the Jews would kill the Germans. Funny logic but many far-right groups are using the same argument against certain ethnic and religious groups.

      Is it a coincidence that the same seeds of hatred are the ones that cause the same tragedies?

  22. JusticeDemon

    xyz

    But then in order to secure permission to remain in Finland, you would need a passport and exit visa, and a certificate personally signed by Hitler explaining that his government had implemented a final solution to exterminate that minority and that this named individual was scheduled for imminent liquidation.

    Otherwise the Finns would not believe your self-serving sob story and they would send you back to the Gestapo as a filthy social welfare tourist.

    And if you are allowed to stay, then you must promise not to voice any public concern about the fate of your brothers and sisters left behind.

  23. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Your characterisation of the EU, EEA and EFTA has caused much hilarity in the office this morning. Please tell us more… 🙂

    • Enrique

      –I have already posted here this article but it has been dismissed as non-sense (we would be surprised if it hasn’t, wouldn’t we?).

      Do you know what the problem with this article is? It does not source anyone. There are no sources. So what does that tell me? Some journalist did a bit of editorializing ( a no-no when writing a news story) and presented the story as a news story.

      In other words, shoddy journalism. But I guess it sells newspapers…

  24. xyz

    Tony, since you have such an issue with other religions, I was wondering how important religion actually is in a relationship with God (if a God exist at all). Religions were created by man and not by God. Beliefs are subjective and only between you and God. At the end you will answer to God and not to your religion. Also if God created mankind, why do you think did he created people believing in different religions and not only in one religion? Did he make a mistake? Do you think discrimination against other groups is something what God wants?

    • Enrique

      Well, at least this story cites somebody. It is backed by sources. The conservative Daily Telegraph story did not. Funny that Helsingin Sanomat knows more about good journalism than the Daily Telegraph.

  25. xyz

    Tony, are you able to speak Finnish or not? I am a bit confused since sometimes you say you are not able to speak Finnish and then you come with articles written in Finnish.

  26. JusticeDemon

    That Telegraph piece is an exercise in axe-grinding that depends for its force on an uncritical and ignorant readership.

    The presentations of population projections are willfully misleading. So what if the population of the European union is now forecast “to increase by 10 million by 2050”? That is an average annual population growth of 0.05 percentage points (from 500 million to 510 million over a 40-year period). And a substantial part of that forecast is due to extended life expectancy accompanying rising living standards in Eastern Europe. In other words, if there are currently 2,000 people living in your village, then next year there will be one extra person moving in – or perhaps you will elect to occupy the retirement home for a little longer, or your grandchild will not be stillborn.

    • Enrique

      JusticeDemon, you cannot predict the future of societies with a pocket calculator. These types of stories, like the one in the Daily Telegraph and another one a while back in HS, reveal more the fears of the writer than anything else.

  27. Tony Garcia

    “In other words, shoddy journalism.”

    Klay, what did I say?

    “Funny logic but many far-right groups are using the same argument against certain ethnic and religious groups. ”

    Could you please show to us witch far-right group is campaign for certain ethnic and religious group to be killed? Thanks.

    “you cannot predict the future of societies with a pocket calculator.”

    That’s exactly my point, we just can’t calculate who aged Finnish society will by in 20, 30 or 50 years.

    “…reveal more the fears of the writer than anything else.”

    In some cases, but in others it’s just an excuse to promote social reengineer.

    • Enrique

      –Klay, what did I say?

      You did not say much. But predicting the birthrate of the whole country could be more reliable than using your xenophobia to state how we are being invaded. Where did you say you got your masters?

  28. Tony Garcia

    “Do you know what the problem with this article is? It does not source anyone. There are no sources. So what does that tell me? Some journalist did a bit of editorializing ( a no-no when writing a news story) and presented the story as a news story.”

    “I cannot and will not reveal my source. By the way, what added value would it give to you if I did? “

    • Enrique

      –“I cannot and will not reveal my source. By the way, what added value would it give to you if I did? ”

      Yes, Tony, you did the right thing to protect the source because there is no source except for 100% boloney.

  29. Tony Garcia

    “Yes, Tony, you did the right thing to protect the source because there is no source except for 100% boloney.”

    Sorry my friend, but it was you who said that…

    • Enrique

      All these secrecy places well in the lunacy of things. Yes, Tony, thank you for protecting the “source” from becoming a laughing stock.

    • Enrique

      Yes, Tony, you are right. I run out of arguments because a Daily Telegraph article practices faulty journalism by editorializing a news story. You have really pinned me to the ground. I am defenseless and without words.

      Arguing this point is similar to speaking about immigration. From my view, you don’t understand what you are speaking of because the concepts are foreign.

  30. Tony Garcia

    “You have really pinned me to the ground.”

    You pin yourself to the ground when you start to use personal attach, I’m sorry but I won’t reply to you in the same way. During the last 2 years I have always debate your ideas not you, and this is not about to change…

    My point is simple.

    1. Birthrate is not a reliable way to calculate either Muslim majority or ageing population. It can give us an idea at the most. As you say… ” you cannot predict the future of societies with a pocket calculator.”

    2. If secret source is good for your article why is not for the Telegraph? BTW did you really read the article? Are you sure there isn’t any source in it?

  31. Tony Garcia

    I was quite sure the article makes a clear reference to this study… But I’m probably wrong…

    https://www.afresearch.org/skins/rims/q_mod_be0e99f3-fc56-4ccb-8dfe-670c0822a153/q_act_downloadpaper/q_obj_8b15759d-d867-4cd7-8bb8-bb7f58bb6e44/display.aspx?rs=enginespage

    “Europe’s Muslim population has already more than doubled in the past 30 years and is expected to double again by 2015.6 In contrast, Europe’s non-Muslim population has a negative growth rate that could cause a decline of 3.5 percent by 2015, making Muslims about 11% of the total EU population.7 This trend within Europe reflects a broader trend in which the “Muslim world” is growing while the Western world shrinks. ”

    “An alternative coarse projection based on 2005 datab generates a total population for France in 2045 that falls within the upper range of official UN projections, yet the Muslim portion of the population grows from 9% to just 24%.”

    “Although, the “threat” of a Muslim majority in any current EU states by 2050 appears unlikely, a Muslim majority within the EU is possible if Turkey is admitted. ”

    “Predicting how Europe will look within 50 to 100 years with respect to its acculturation of its Muslim residents is difficult. The demographic estimates vary widely but at least they can be predicted with a high degree of confidence to fall within a certain range of possibilities. “

  32. Tony Garcia

    Sorry about that… I’m amazed how you just missed it from the Telegraph article. Maybe conservative articles are a bit to acid to your fragile eyes, so you had go to through quick.

    Anyway…

    Air University Research Information Management System. Air command and staff college. United State Air Force.

    Research: Muslim Demographics in the European Union – Widening the gap with US Foreigner Policy.
    Researcher: Leon J. Perkowski, Major, USAF

    • Enrique

      Hey, the Daily Telegraphy is very poorly sourced. First they make a statement without sources and then they go into immigration problems in Europe. I would call this poor journalism or leading people on.

      Do you think that the sources you showed are impartial? Bush did declare war on the “evil” you-know-who a long time ago.

  33. Tony Garcia

    The source is that alright, you just didn’t see it. I could have brought this up before but I thought it would be fun confront your previous position when I asked about your sources and you dismissed saying that knowing the sources is not important. What I love the most about debating here is that all we say is on the record.

    “Do you think that the sources you showed are impartial?”

    USAF? It depends, if say something you want to hear it’s complete impartial, otherwise no…

    • Enrique

      I am talking about the demographic claims but does not present these are the USAF source. My point is that the source should be presented immediately. Thus the USAF is stating that Europe’s population will cause problems with relations between Brussels and Washington. Is that the story? If it is, the journalist doesn’t go very far to show contrary opinions but assumes that this will happen.

      As far as I am concerned, this story has too many holes to be reliable. Not my style of journalism unless I wanted to sound alarm bells. One of the biggest flaws in this article-opinion piece is that it assumes that cultures do not change and therefore other European minorities will be the same as they were a few generations ago. This is a favorite argument of the far-right to argue incompatibility of a culture. It is only a statement, an opinion, not backed with any studies. Or maybe you can show us one that suggests a certain group is so out of touch with our culture that they will never (future generations as well) be compatible.

  34. Tony Garcia

    “My point is that the source should be presented immediately.”

    The source was presented, you would have seen it if you had read the article, but just the headline was enough for you start basing it without knowing what was in there. it’s not the first time you do that and end up in hot waters.

    “Is that the story? ”

    Nop it’t not, that clearly shows that you didn’t read the article. But you don’t need to, do you?

    “As far as I am concerned, this story has too many holes to be reliable.”

    How do you know if you haven’t read it?

    “Or maybe you can show us one that suggests a certain group is so out of touch with our culture that they will never (future generations as well) wll be compatible.”

    Every group can change, of course, but for that to happen, first, multiculturalists need to stop telling then they shouldn’t, otherwise they won’t ever change.

    • Enrique

      Tony, this Daily Telegraph story is misleading and provocative. The discussion we are having here shows that it is biased and has holes. If I used this article-opinion piece as a reliable source, I would be laughed out of the door. There are many more weak aspects I could point out but I have better things to do today.

      –Every group can change, of course, but for that to happen, first, multiculturalists need to stop telling then they shouldn’t, otherwise they won’t ever change.

      The people who form part of the group determine their change. That is their right not your prerogative. How we integrate in society hinges on a number of factors. Do you think that if a Muslim crossed your path it would lead to integration and harmony? Would you be able to make him feel at home or what you start to bash his culture and tell him how evil he/she is? I mentioned integration not assimilation.

  35. Tony Garcia

    Once you haven’t read the article (your wish to bash it was greater than your time (or patience) to read it) let me summarized it for you.

    The USAF research tells about possible frictions between US and EU in a possible scenario of a Muslim majority Europe.

    The Telegraph article uses the demographic explained in the research to warn about the possibility of a Muslim majority Europe.

    Bear in mind that both, article and research, look at this as a possible situation, not certain. The same goes for the ageing Finland theory (witch is also based on demographic) possible but not certain.

    “The people who form part of the group determin their change. This depends on a number of factors. I mentioned integration not assimilation.”

    There you go, I couldn’t have said it better myself. That shows to us, very clearly indeed, what changes we should expect from them…

    • Enrique

      Tony, I am amazed by your Superman vision. You can see all the way to Finland and see what I do.

      That article, even the USAF claim, is boloney. Why? Because it assumes that Muslims are already a threat. I would like to read the USAF report and see if it actually says this. Is it the USAF’s official opinion. I doubt it.

  36. Tony Garcia

    And why did bring this? for the same reason I let the discussion about the article’s source goes further. To show your double standards. How you have two measure system, one for Finns and one for non-Finns…

    – Secret source – bad when used against Muslims but good for you to use against Finns.

    – Demographic – bad for predicting a possible Muslims majority but good for predicting ageing Finland and demand open door immigration.

  37. Tony Garcia

    And once this article is bad sourced, biased, full of holes, and all the rest of it (don’t worry we know it all), why not talk about the article you said was better than this one? The HS article about the growing number of “Finns” and immigrants assessing Islamic terrorist websites.

    Should the Finnish government use controlled freedom of speech to prevent the access to those sites, or this should only be used against the far-right?

    Do you think prevent Muslims from listen to their online fire-breathing Imams violate their yooman rites?

  38. Tony Garcia

    “Because it assumes that Muslims are already a threat. ”

    Who said this? It only show that with Turkey join EU a Muslim majority Europe is possible, nothing else. I doesn’t anything if it’s good or bad, should or shouldn’t be prevented from happening.

    ” Is it the USAF’s official opinion.”

    It’s not an opinion, it’s a research showing one possible scenario based on the Europe’s current situation.

  39. Tony Garcia

    I can’t see what you do but, based on what you said about the article, anyone can see you didn’t read it, just bashed it. Your first claim it was that it lacked sources. Well apparently it doesn’t…

    • Enrique

      The article lacks reliable sources and as far as I am concerned, a good story begins with sources. Who said it? Is the source reliable? Impartial? Etc… All these matters are important to ask in the beginning of the story. But the problem is that these Daily Telegraph so-called news stories are more like editorials on a topic. They take a stand. They do so because that is what the reader wants.

    • Enrique

      Yes, Tony, what Justice Demon says is right: You don’t have any idea what protecting a source means and when it is necessary.

  40. Klay_Immigrant

    Concerning the ageing of Europe dilemma, another prediction that has been overlooked is that even though every generation has been more prosperous than the last, life expectancy may actually go down mainly due to lifestyle choices leading to increased rates of diseases or complications such as obesity, diabetes, and hypertension. We may be getting richer but we are also getting more stressed and unhealthy.

  41. Tony Garcia

    “You don’t have any idea what protecting a source means and when it is necessary.”

    ” a good story begins with sources. Who said it? Is the source reliable? Impartial? Etc…”

    • Enrique

      A fair question: Do you think that the person that gave out that statistical information was in threat of losing his/her life or job? If you say yes to the latter you are suggesting that the EU is hiding information from its citizens. Is this what you are implying?

      Sometimes sources are hidden or protected because they may be in danger. The only person that can know the source is someone like the editor. The name of the paper guarantees the reliability of even anonymous sources.

  42. Tony Garcia

    Nop I just showing your contradictions. In article critical to Muslims EVERYTHING matters and is used to discredit, but if the article critical to Finns NOTHING matters and it can’t be discredit at all. Just that, you have two set of measures, one for Finns and one for non-Finns… This is clear are day light.

    BTW: You still keep that the article doesn’t have any source, don’t you? There we go back to the minarets and/or mosques circle…

    • Enrique

      They are two different things and problems. Please don’t mix them.

      The examples you bring on certain minorities are denigrating and insulting in my opinion. Do we go around here stating that Finns are all murderers, drunkards etc? That is basically the tone of some of the stories you bring.

  43. Tony Garcia

    But I think we have already plenty of material from this discussion already. So, I’ll surrender it to you, alright?

    There you go… The article have NO source and the source of the article is unreliable. Is that good?

    Very well… Once we got this out of the way we could talk about the second article I posted, that once from HS.

    Should controlled freedom of expression be used to prevent that to happened or it should only be used against the far-right?

    • Enrique

      To be frank Tony the far-right has as much right to freedom of speech as the far-left. Guaranteeing freedom of speech is the best way to keep such groups from latching onto power. They can never prosper in a democratic system because their agenda is exclusive and undemocratic in many respects.

      So please do not come and tell us that we are against free speech. That is the last thing we want to do. Our best defense against extremist are their right to express themselves. Do I agree with what they say. Of course not. I am not like they who want to take rights away from legal residents in Finland because they are too lazy or blind to study their laws.

      And do you think that the anti-immigration wing of the True Finns really believe what they say? I would call it lust for power with a generous dash of opportunism.

  44. Tony Garcia

    You’re saying it’s all my imagination. You don’t get hard on Finns and excuse Muslims from everything… all right then, my imagination it’s…

  45. JusticeDemon

    I don’t expect Tony to understand this (and frankly I don’t care), but this recent case is relevant to the question of whether freedom of expression is an absolute right, and the extent to which governments can curtail it in the public interest.

    • Enrique

      Thanks for this JusticeDemon. Another “dynamic” duo trying to find refuge under the First Amendment. I have heard one of the True Finns that signed the Nuiva Manifest does not believe the Holacaust ever happened. If any of them get in the Parliament, voters will end up outraged because they have few answers.

    • Enrique

      This so-called USAF study that you presented has the following disclaimer:

      The views expressed in this academic research paper are those of the author(s) and do not reflect the official policy or position of the US government or the Department of Defense. In accordance with Air Force Instruction 51-303, it is not copyrighted, but is the property of the United States government.

      Moreover, if you read the paper, you would have noted that Europe is not in threat of a Muslim takeover and that social and economic inclusion are paramount. It does not only apply to Muslims but to any group living within Europe.

  46. Tony Garcia

    “This so-called USAF study that you presented has the following disclaimer: ”

    I know, and I told you, it’s not a USAF opinion but a research. But as usual you go after the messenger and forget the message. Oh well… expected…

    “Moreover, if you read the paper, you would have noted that Europe is not in threat of a Muslim takeover”

    What the paper said is: “Although, the “threat” of a Muslim majority in any current EU states by 2050 appears unlikely, a Muslim majority within the EU is possible if Turkey is admitted. ”

    But why did bring this back? I already surrendered to you. I’ll do it again…

    Enrique is right, the article has NO source and the source is not credible. Happy now?

    “Another “dynamic” duo trying to find refuge under the First Amendment.”

    You really confuses me, first you are for controlled freedom of speech, then not anymore, now you are again… Quite difficult to follow you, I must say…

    Is a Daily Mail article credible now? When did this change? Don’t you just love multiculturalists?

    • Enrique

      Hannu, why do I have to tell you this? Can’t you make the difference between what is far-right and what is not? There is nothing normal in loathing other groups publicly. It shows maladaption to our way of life. To start of with, a good example is James Hirvisaari’s Muslim bashing. Did he work for Finnish Railways? What kind of an educational background does he have? Education does not mean anything especially if you don’t learn common decency towards others. I have heard that one of the people who signed the Nuiva manifest does not believe that the Holocaust ever took place. That is only a short prelude to who these people are. I have looked at their position and for me it is far-right with a heavy dose of populism. Do many believe what they say? I doubt it because what they are interested in is getting a job as an MP. After this merry band kick out the few Muslims in Finland, they will point their sights at other minorities. It always happens this way. Finland will never be international when you have people like this at the helm. Fortunately time does not walk backwards and all these type of undemocratic ideas do not form part of our values and laws. For that I am grateful that I live in this country. So instead of telling immigrants to adapt to Finland, they should learn to adapt to our country’s values.

  47. Tony Garcia

    ” I have heard to one of the people who signed the Nuiva manifest does not believe that the Holocaust ever took place. That is only a short prelude to who these people are. ”

    Very well, neither do Muslims. You are right, only a short prelude…

    • Enrique

      –Very well, neither do Muslims. You are right, only a short prelude…

      Do you mean ALL Muslims or SOME Muslims. You have to be careful not to label the whole group… The Holocaust is an outlandsh reminder of the limits of xenophobia.

    • Enrique

      –Sorry, most of Muslims…

      Great, so now you have empirical proof of this. If you don’t, you are walking on thin ice. Do you know what happens to people that walk on thin ice?

  48. Tony Garcia

    “After this merry band kick out the few Muslims in Finland, they will point their sights at other minorities.”

    “Great, so now you have empirical proof of this. If you don’t, you are walking on thin ice. Do you know what happens to people that walk on thin ice?”

  49. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Finland will never be international when you have people like this at the helm.’

    Do you ever think that maybe Finland and it’s people don’t want to be international? You disagree with that Enrique but it’s their right to choose where they want to take their own country. And please don’t link diversity and innovation together again as I’ve already shown how some of the most technological advanced companies have been born and evolved from some of the most homogenous populations on the planet.

  50. Klay_Immigrant

    Demon how many times are you are to joke about Tony the Brazilian, forests and eco-fascists. It’s getting old now. But seeming as Tony is from Sao Paulo on the coast and illerally thousands of Km away from the outer edge of the Amazon Forest it seems any eco-fascist shouldn’t have a problem. If they did then they should also target every other South Amercian citizen apart from Uruguayans as some if not all their land is closer to the Amazon Forest than people from Sao Paulo.

    • Enrique

      Klay, check out what happened to the Atlantic Rainforest. It ran through Sao Paulo.

  51. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Tony doesn’t complain about this. Since when are YOU his champion?

    He’s Brazilian. Brazilians are responsible for raping the rain forests. Finland should not allow any Brazilian anywhere near its own forest ecosystem. This is important to remember when Tony arrives as a welfare refugee from the collapsing Irish economy.

    This is precisely the same blanket condemnation approach that Tony applies to Moslems.

    But perhaps that is also a joke that is getting old now.

  52. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Run that by us again. By homogeneous population you mean the Bushmen of the Kalahari? The Inuit of the Canadian Arctic? The Māori of New Zealand?

    Or perhaps you mean Japan before 1895?

    Does homogeneous merely mean “they all look alike to me”? Look a bit closer.

    I suppose you are too young to remember the reputation of Japanese goods in the West during the 1960s.

    • Enrique

      Wow, JusticeDemon, you took me back to the 1960s when Made in Japan was a joke.

  53. Klay_Immigrant

    Demon since you refuse to apply any thread of common sense I guess I going to have to spell it out for you. HOMOGENEOUS POPULATION IN ANY GIVEN COUNTRY. Last time I checked the Bushmen, Inuit and Maori do not even make up the majority in their own country.

  54. Tony Garcia

    Sorry Klay but, generally speaking, Finns have no problem with foreigners. They just don’t want some groups which are all well know by their incapability/unwillingness to integrate/adapt/assimilate and be a productive part of the Finnish society.

    I told you before, forget your skin color, you would be much more welcome there than many here want you to believe.

    Have you seen this?

    http://www.thelocal.de/society/20101117-31221.html

    Can you see how desperate they are over there? Having 4+ millions of Muslims running wild on your streets is not a ease. No matter how much you try, when a group doesn’t want to integrate they just won’t.

  55. Klay_Immigrant

    You’re right Tony. Not to mention Rosengård, a city district in Malmö, where 60% were born outside of Sweden and 86% of the population in the city district was of foreign background. It has also been the scene of regular clashes between youth and police. Fire crews have also been threatened and attacked by local youth. As a result, the Malmö Fire Department refuses to respond to fire calls in Rosengård without police escort. Ah the beauty of Multiculturalism.

  56. xyz

    You’re right Tony. Not to mention Rosengård, a city district in Malmö, where 60% were born outside of Sweden and 86% of the population in the city district was of foreign background.
    -So it would be actually better that Klay and Tony are not goint to move to Finland…I mean they would increase the amount of foreigners… 🙂

  57. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Prior to colonisation, the Māori of New Zealand were a “majority in their own country” by any definition of that expression, and for practical purposes their society had been homogeneous for centuries. You may draw an arbitrary boundary (what else is an international border?) around the Kalahari desert at any time in known human history and the Bushmen will be a similar majority. The Inuit are a special case, as they spread across the Arctic and subarctic as far as Siberia and Greenland, but the homogeneity that you admire so much was retained and it wasn’t hard to achieve the status of a “majority” in these inhospitable regions.

    If these examples of indigenous nations proper are not to your taste, then perhaps you should tell us which homogeneous populations you were referring to. Then we can punch a hole in your argument by pointing out how much of the progress in these societies was stimulated and sustained by foreign influences and, indeed, by immigration.

    Finland is one clear and obvious example of this. Here is another question from the Finnish residence permit examination: what do the household names Fazer, Finlayson, Gutzeit, Hackman, Paulig, Sinebrychoff and Stockmann all have in common?

    • Enrique

      Touché JusticeDemon. A person who speaks with little knowledge of Finland that we are monoculture and have not had any foreign influence. Let’s start with with Swedish and Russian rule for starters. The only hope that Europe will not implode into itself is immigration as a colleague of mine said recently. Therefore, kiss your monoworld goodbye because it never existed and step up to the major leagues where people can respect each other. In other words start adapting and becoming a European.

  58. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    I think you’ll find that it was the first goal of the game Brazil 0 England 2 on 10 June 1984 that did the most to kick racism out of English football.

  59. Klay_Immigrant

    I’m guessing from the top of my head even though I wasn’t even born that you’re talking about the John Barnes wonder goal. And yes I do realise that at the time throwing bananas and making monkey noises to black players in Britain was common place, and it still exists in certain Eastern European countries, but what’s your point? Also if you don’t mind telling me where you are originally from?

  60. JusticeDemon

    lol@Tony

    The principles set out in section 148 of the Aliens Act have remained much the same since the very first legislation of this kind in 1984.

    Precisely where has Ricky suggested otherwise?

    What a Toby.

Leave a Reply