My Conscience Your Conscience

by , under Dana

By Dana
OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA
Who has conscience?
Who doesn’t have conscience?
Finnish law doesn’t because it made a deep wound in me and it could not feel it did anything bad, oh nothing at all.                                                                                                       So why is this law  so cruel to me and my situation??? Because it isn’t wise…. because wiseness has conscience.                                                                                                What about racist people? Black and white or of other colours?
A racist  has nothing except a circle… a  sad circle that has no light in at all.
Do u feel anything in u like kindness?…what does your conscience teach you every day?
When was the last time u got a lesson from ur CONSCIENCE?
If u have no feelings for sadness and happiness then ur conscience is dead…who killed it?
You yourself killed it with your proudness and anger against other humans beings, so u r a killer….
now u got ur bad news and if u still feel nothing then u r truly not a human.
People who have no feelings for each other, who are like walls, who cant think more than money and some private things…they may look human but they are not human….NO
Then we have another matter…hmmm
We all live and we all will leave one day
We cant take anything with us to the other side and you dont know which side you will move to… be aware.                                                                                                     Tell me about zero, all u know is about zero? What u know about zero?
We have a big parliament here in Helsinki that has zero conscience…. it is an unwise parliament                                                                                                 What benefit has a parliament that is unwise?
What goals has this shaking parliament?
How many good things has this fat parliament done this week? How about last week? And whats their goals and plans for next week?
Your silence means you know nothing….
Your attack means you are barking….
Your stone-heart means your belong to stone age
You are not human, the only thing you have is a bad rage
And so universe will close your ugly page
If you are a fanatic i dont care at all
If you are a religious i dont believe it no more
If you cant see me in injustice, you are just shadow
You are a zero zero zero with No ego
You need a hero hero hero that’s alive – Conscience

  1. Yossie

    “why is this law so cruel to me and my situation???”

    Your situation? Throwing a tantrum at public office and getting jailed for it? Not getting your family to Finland?

    How would public services would work if everyone did the same? Didnt get what you wanted? Throw a tantrum and refuse to leave! Dont be suprised when next time you come and cant even get inside the building because its full of people having a tantrum.

    Should everyone get to Finland who want to come? Every poor and uneducated person in the world? Everyone just here to enjoy the welfare services! Wouldnt work.. as such, there is laws to stop it!

  2. Brave

    Yossie shut up.
    Shut up u fearful chicken.
    again u barking?
    U r not human thats very clear.
    JOSSIE U R NOT HUMAN even at mirror u can see a face but u r not a human u and all u support them.
    Okay i hunt u with my blog…. u have no conscience, again am success and again u r loser, a loser racist, Jossie u r under my feets for always.
    And how long u want barking here to me?
    Dont u know am not afarid from a racist like u? What u want of me? What?
    Tell me what? I wont leave Finland so u cant celebrate this to yourself…. I am standing for me like a mountain and u r a balck small point under this mountain, so u cant do anything.
    I paid to ur racist law…. it is me who paid to them and it is them who scammed me…… Cant u understand u racist Jossie? It is me who can make her voice loud not u witrh ur ugly spirit.
    Why u r so proud of yours? Tell us what u have? What u done in ur whole life? What important things except barking and attack ?
    U r nothing.
    Cant u shut up ur big dirty mouth. Shut up Jossie, shut up.
    Yes i can write and i can show ur a cruel animal, but Jossie u r not worthy at all so i cant call u animal.

  3. Brave

    Your situation? Throwing a tantrum at public office and getting jailed for it? Not getting your family to Finland?

    U r a very dirty one Jossie… even devil cant accept u.
    tantrum is u, tantrum is ur small brain, tantrum is ur dirty thoughts… U racist… u have nothing except a few words….. u are very very poor.
    What u know about jail… u drty Jossie? What? U r not a man, u r nerveless.
    Tell me do u have family Jossie?if u have how can u bee so heatless???
    Or u r separete and divorce? No children? No family, no sister, no brother???
    Would u like ur dirty police attack them and throwing them in jail? What about yours?
    Or u think they are better than me???
    Racist
    Racist
    Racist
    Why u afarid of my family?
    U dont know them and u judge them why? Who are u? I dont Useless Jossie and bark bark bark until morning and until u get ur beer.

  4. Brave

    How would public services would work if everyone did the same? Didnt get what you wanted? Throw a tantrum and refuse to leave! Dont be suprised when next time you come and cant even get inside the building because its full of people having a tantrum.

    Jossie u r sick, panic is in ur cells.
    Oh public service? Are u sure public service?
    They r public racists
    Panic panic panic
    Panic is in ur blood Madam Jossie.
    Tantrum….AWWWW so u chicken are so polite in ur whole life? Yes??? oh what a UGLY CUTE Jossie we have on MT….
    Why u afarid so much of foriegners?

  5. Brave

    Should everyone get to Finland who want to come? Every poor and uneducated person in the world? Everyone just here to enjoy the welfare services! Wouldnt work.. as such, there is laws to stop it!

    Shut up Jossie, Finland is not yours … Finland is belong to no/one… except GOD.
    Oh poor and uneducated??? HUUUM so u try to tell us that u r rich, U r a big joke Jossie Even if u ra rich one u cant be proud of ur money one day u will leave everything u cant take money with yourself when u die.
    And shut up dont judge my family with ur virus u jealous racist snake, u cant open ur mouth about my family becareful and dont spell my family with ur smelly mouth, becareful poor racist Jossie u animal dont talk about my family.
    I send u back all ur words… ur family deserve ur judge not mine…
    Uneducate is you Jossie, poor is u because poor does not mean a person without money but a person without conscience.
    My family are not poor… a food they eat only for their lunch u and ur family never had in ur whole life… u never saw it even in ur dream and u wont, eat ur butter and brwon bread and shut up…
    What u know about educate? What u have? What u know tell us?
    Tell us what u know?
    U even cant talk like normal… just abnormal then ur certificates if u have are good for WC, yes toilet…they are belong to there and am wondring if toilet can accept ur certificate.
    Poor and uneducate? Do u mean ur parents and family are poor and uneducated?u mean ur mother and father and children and all well i cant help in this case to u…
    OH OH OH Poor Jossie…..thats ur problem not mine so bark to yourself at mirror but am sure even mirror cant accept ur scary face and am not surprise that u have such a poor and uneducate family and parents because u show very well who were and are ur parents and generation…huh
    SO SO SO Ur parents and all genertaion of yours were rich? and no/one use welfare services in ur family?
    U never done that? Drunker Jossie…I pay tax and whenever i used welfare services i paid more with my free working for Finnish system, again its me who can talk loud not ur system and law.
    It is me who has a chin up not u Jossie.
    So
    shut up Pantaloon.

  6. Brave

    Finally u executioner Jossie,
    ( First go and search for the mean of EXECUTIONER )
    Why u dont speak about those foreigners who pay tax in Finalnd and who are working here their best?
    Why u dont speak about those Finns who just watch TV and drink alcohol, who just make party with welfare money?
    And why ur eyes are not able to see successful foreigners? U jealous Madam.
    By the way which one u r, Mr or Mrs?
    In real life i wont even look at ur face… and am sure crocodile is beautiful than u if u dont believe me ask your broken mirror.
    Now bark until morning … it cant change the fact… am here and will be here, i will leave here and will make true my all golas and wishes.
    So cry ur river

  7. Yossie

    Wow, you need psyciatric help, all that hate cant be good for you.

    I´m not judging your family. Just that the fact is that Finland can’t take all the people who would want to come. As such there is laws to stop them. The very same laws the country you came from has.

    • Mark

      Yossie

      So you think that you can write this:

      Your situation? Throwing a tantrum at public office and getting jailed for it? Not getting your family to Finland?

      And the person you wrote it about would not get angry at you? Who needs a psychiatric evaluation?

      First of all – getting jailed for a tantrum of any kind is overkill. Second, she went to the social welfare offices, clue in the word ‘WELFARE’, you know, well-being. So if she cannot go there for help (with an appointment time) without having the police called to remove her, then where can she go? Third, your idea of a tantrum is somebody sitting on a chair not saying anything – how is that a tantrum? From the information that Dana has given, she did not fight, did not have a tantrum as you imply, but rather froze on her chair when the police started to manhandle her away. This is not an uncommon reaction – fight, flight or freeze.

      And yes, you were attacking her family. You said this:

      Should everyone get to Finland who want to come? Every poor and uneducated person in the world?

      That almost certainly was a personal attack made in response to Dana’s point about her mother not being allowed to Finland, and a vindictive and small-minded one at that. You do realise that Iran has a very advanced university network! It has over 3.5 million university students enrolled at any one time. It has 54 state run universities, and 42 medical schools. Dana already pointed out that she is working and paying taxes in Finland, so she is not a welfare leech as you implied.

      I think your assumptions are completely ill-founded and I think that Dana is well within your rights to express her utter disgust at your ignorance and vindictiveness. Personally, it is exactly that kind of xenopbobia that you expressed that does inspire hatred towards Finns. What do you think people are? Targets for your ignorance? Foolish boy!

      That’s the problem with ignorant arseholes like you, you think you can insult any foreigner in any way and then you protest when you get a real response!

      Not only that – but you chose to make this a very personal insult towards Dana at a time when she is actually grieving for her dead mother, a fact that I’m sure you are aware of given you have been commenting regularly the last weeks. How insensitive can you be? You are behaving like a cold-blooded Nazi, Yossie, and calling ‘psychiatry’ to your defence hardly covers up that fact. You are the one clearly lacking a sense of humanity, either in the way you address Dana’s problems here in Finland and in the way you casually bad-mouth foreigners.

    • Yossie

      Mark

      Yes, if you dont get a answer you want from the welfare office and then obstructing their work by refusing to leave, its a tantrum alright.

      If I remember right, she thought she had an appointment, but when she got there, she found out that she hadnt. Someone made a mistake, she or the welfare office. Its ok to be pissed off. But what any sensible person would do is to understand these kind of mix ups happen and just reschule the appointment. Not start obstructing their work.

      “And yes, you were attacking her family”

      I was not. I was asking her if she thinks that everyone should get a free pass to Finland.

    • Mark

      Yossie

      Yes, if you dont get a answer you want from the welfare office and then obstructing their work by refusing to leave, its a tantrum alright.

      No, it’s not a tantrum. You refer to her behaviour like she is child. That is a disgustingly arrogant and superior approach to people who have welfare problems.

      She had an appointment time and was waiting to be seen. Not making a fuss. Why the office called the police is unclear. You are jumping to massive conclusions. If you have questions, ask her. Don’t insult her.

      I was not.

      YES, you were. There was no confusion about this whatsoever. You refered directly to her comment about her family coming to Finland and mentioned in the next sentence that the poor and uneducated should not be allowed into Finland. Take responsibility for what you write, you spineless wimp!

    • Yossie

      Mark

      “She had an appointment time and was waiting to be seen. Not making a fuss.”

      You think they would call police if she was just waiting for her turn all nice? There is no way! She is leaving something out. Maybe she can fill us in about that.

      “There was no confusion about this whatsoever. You refered directly to her comment about her family coming to Finland and mentioned in the next sentence that the poor and uneducated should be allowed into Finland.”

      I asked her if her case for unwise, cruel and uncouscious laws were based on her experience in welfare office or her not getting her family here.

      In case it had been because of her family, I wanted to know how if she felt that “conscious laws” would mean that everyone could come (and it was this “everyone” that poor and educated was refering to). If yes, it would mean a destruction of finnish welfare system. Hardly a conscious law in that case. If no, then it would rise a question what makes her family the measure of consciousness.

    • Brave

      Aagain shut up sick chicken YOU Jossie,
      SO psychology u r… U r theatre.
      I have light in me i dont need walk with psychology and this stuffs, psychology is a king and believe for u but for me means only a job… U can wash ur brain with this things but be careful when u talk to me.
      Be very careful even when u look at me…OOOPS

      NOW take ur pills sad wolf and dont bark so much.
      Hate?
      So u want love? No more jokes? so u cant laugh but u can making other people laugh at u, huuuum.

      Jossie u yourself r hate… ur mean is hate… ur name is hate.

      U cant argue like an adult… U r a creature of darkness.
      Also there is no argue between me and u because u r my enemy and u cant figure it out how to talk to a woman like me… dont forget that u cant treat me with ur normal ways… women are different… u never seen a woman like me???… u r angry, sad, jealous…. u cant accept a strong woman around u… but u cant do anything am strong and i dont think cheap like many woman… open ur eyes and be careful
      Dont foregt that women are different… u cant treat me like u r my woner… u r nothing for me GOD is my owner… am standing like a lion for me and u r a mouse again and again under my feets.

      What is it to u? Dont be worry for my helath i have love in me…love is perfect for my helath, u care about yourself.

  8. Brave

    If I remember right, she thought she had an appointment, but when she got there, she found out that she hadnt. Someone made a mistake, she or the welfare office. Its ok to be pissed off. But what any sensible person would do is to understand these kind of mix ups happen and just reschule the appointment. Not start obstructing their work.

    “And yes, you were attacking her family”

    I was not. I was asking her if she thinks that everyone should get a free pass to Finland.

    Ahan Now u want amke a story on my real story yes Jossie?
    I had a real appointment time, even still i have it on paper, because social adviser sent me this appointment time on my e.mail address and then i made a copy of it, becaus eit was a witness for me however no/one wanted to see this.
    Secondly tell me with what right racist polices attcked me?
    Is that a wise? It was very clear that they dont need attck me because i told them why that am there and i was talking to them with respect and polite, i been alone, i am a woman, i had not gun, i had no/one with me, so how they made a decision against me?
    They are racists
    Social workers and polices
    because there was no reason for attack.
    There was no reason for racist social workers to call to police…
    Jossie are u a slave for police?
    U cants see facts because u r fanatical….
    How u think that ur police is perfect?
    How u believe this?
    There is no perfect at all, no/one is perfect, if there was nothing against my body and soul, why i have wound? Why???
    Jail?
    Jail was not my right… it was a comic idea from them…
    U know how i felt in jail?
    It was torture , they all wanted that social workers and polices, it was their goal, a racist goal.
    And u r happy for they done that an du telling me it was my right and u exactly attacking me becaus eu think its a good time… i lost my mother and u can attack me???? Yes?????U r a very simple wolf… u r a tothless dead wolf for me u and them.
    There is no word that u deserve it… U dont know about my mother and u come and attacking me and insult her… how can u? and which law and morals give u this right?
    They could not stop it me…. and u cant too.
    ………………
    I was not. I was asking her if she thinks that everyone should get a free pass to Finland …. yes u insulted me and

    I am standing only for me and my family, i have no responsibility to answer about others.

    Foreigners… u ask about them??? What is it to me? WHAT IS IT TO ME????? What time u will understand this?
    Foreigners are different… Finns are different
    I have no responsibility to answer about foreigners or Finns for me both are foriegner and for u both me is a foreigner, u got it now.
    U cant punsih me because maybe u have bad memory about some, when u do this u do ur big mistake… ur system done that to me always.
    Open ur eyes Jossie…

  9. Brave

    You think they would call police if she was just waiting for her turn all nice? There is no way! She is leaving something out. Maybe she can fill us in about that.

    Shut up Jossie shut up, u never seen prejudice u never been with racists… so u dont know what racist people Can do when they have apportunity.
    U ahve all u want here, right here and u talk with ur mouth not with ur brain, easy thats easy.
    U think ur social workers and police were holy holy and perfect and i done wrong??? OH what kind of wrong i done that ur news paper never talked about it?
    If a foreigner do a small thing in Finland ur newspapers will write about it and ur media will talk about.
    So what kind of crime i done that they never talked about??
    What an alone woman could do between social workers… oh pity pity and two robot two racist robot two big police???
    U are a sick mouse, a dirty mouse.
    I dont need expalin to u, who are u? thsi is what happened to me… u believe it or not it cant change the fact.
    U r a racist , ur goal is to support racists so u ask and u want more.
    and it is me who make decision to speak or not
    I told so much and still u r curious… some people are just ready for real stories for read them and close their mouth…. they are just curious about others but they hide themsleves behind curtains… curtains of fear.
    U cant get it…. because u have program in ur brain u cant think more than this program… ur idea, believe is that
    U believe
    Ur police and system are perfect, social workers done right…. and no/one cant help u except yours
    They are ur righteous, u cant make decision with yourself … u r a robot, u r a SLAVE.
    …………….
    She is leaving something out. Maybe she can fill us in about that.
    Shut up spy…. shall i take a camera with me to that office in that day for u racist?
    I cant fill u more than this u should fill it for yourself but u cant as i told u can eat, drink and think out of ur program,,,,u have aprogram in ur brain…u r a slave.
    Jossie ur a slave and shut up.

  10. Brave

    I paid for my family to immigration office.
    Why they accepted that?
    Because that was my right.
    It is 3 years and my mother gone ( okay i know U racists are very happy but i done care u will go too, thats a destiny for all of us so u cant be happy for a long time) we could not see eachother after 7 years and still am waiting for an answer from court… is that justice? is that right? Is that okay in ur morals.
    Why they accepted my applications and money? If it was not a right for me?they scammed me… and u simple Jossie cant believe it because all u want u have right here with u.U never ever cant understand even what am talking about our world is very very different even we both live in Finalnd… we have two very different kind spirit.

    U go to shop u pay for bread they accept this request and they give u bread.
    If u dont deserve bread they will explain to u why? they wont give u bread…. Maybe u did not pay enough money or maybe u have no Euro but other money that they cant accept it…
    So why a long time?
    Why they wanted my money?
    Why they accepted my applications if it was not my rights?

    Who are u small mouse? Even ur ombudsman and lawyer and parliament did not accepted my case about what happened in social office , about racist…
    They were all in smae union with eachother even their names and jobs are different, yes look at me am very intelligent i know so much about these because i lived with torture my all moments, i felt insult even on my bones.
    Then u want more information?
    I was knocking so strong and more than enough means alot for this case…
    Finalnd system and law support racists.
    U even on net… look at yourself even on net u a small racist try to make a theatre and show the opposite of fact.
    Nothing will be okay in Finland no and day by day will be worse because there is a union for racists.
    Now again ask me more information ugly dead wolf.

    • Yossie

      “Why they wanted my money?
      Why they accepted my applications if it was not my rights?”

      Concept of processing fee is alien to you? The application process decides if you have right to bring your family to here. They cant tell if its your right or not before they have investigated your case.

      “Secondly tell me with what right racist polices attcked me?”

      Hard to tell when I dont know what happent between you getting there with an appointment and police getting there. What happent in between?

      “Even ur ombudsman and lawyer and parliament did not accepted my case about what happened in social office , about racist…
      They were all in smae union with eachother even their names and jobs are different”

      Have you ever considered that if everyone is siding with police, you were the one in fault? Also isnt it a bit paranoid to see everyone racist and being in union with each other?

    • Mark

      Yossie

      Concept of processing fee is alien to you?

      A ‘processing fee’ can be seen as an obstacle to processing claims for family reunification. For people newly arrived in Finland, covering these expenses can be a significant challenge. Not only that, but the right to family should not be dependent on paying an ‘administration fee’. This should be a matter of policy. The key question for us is not whether Dana understands the need to pay, but whether it is right to ask her to pay. For Dana, like many others, she paid money and yet received no obvious benefit; it follows naturally from this that people ask ‘what did I pay for’? You mention investigations, but this typically means scanning documents and is not a particularly expensive endeavour.

      Hard to tell when I dont know what happent between you getting there with an appointment and police getting there. What happent in between?

      One of the key issues here for Dana was the feeling that she had when she was being manhandled, the way she was treated – she felt that she was not treated like a human being, with no respect, and with far too much physical force, and in a way that was violating (they touched her legs). This apparently was a matter that members of the social services staff agreed with Dana about, but could not do anything about. This was the nature of the complaint that Dana made, as far as I know – and not specifically to be ‘asked to leave’.

      The other problem with your response Yossie, while seeming to be ‘common sense’ is that it completely individualises the problem and refuses in any way to consider whether the system has failed. You take it for granted that it is perfectly normal for the police not simply to remove a person from a building who is being ‘obstructive’, but also to take them to jail and then to prosecute them, thus giving them a criminal record.

      The question for me therefore is whether a breakdown in communication in the social offices should result in a criminal conviction. The answer for me is an almost certain NO.

      It is quite ridiculous and is effectively ‘criminalising helplessness’.

      People go to the social offices often as a last line of support or help, and people who naturally feel desperate in these situations may behave in desperate ways – should that be criminalised? No!

      As long as it doesn’t involved violence or destruction of property, I would say a big fat NO. The idea is quite ridiculous. It is the ALL POWERFUL STATE exercising excessive force of procedure. What is wrong with simply removing the person from the building? Either way, it appears that not very much effort has gone into reconciling the situation in a normal way. Perhaps Dana is holding back information about this. I agree that there are questions that she hasn’t answered. But even with those answers, the issue of when and if the police should be involved remains. The issue of whether it is right to ‘criminalise desperation’ remains.

      Have you ever considered that if everyone is siding with police, you were the one in fault?

      So far, people seem to be siding with the idea that this is the right way to treat people who are desperate. You and other commentators reinforce that. You basically reinforce the idea that indeed it is a conspiracy to maintain the ‘status quo’, which in this case appears to be an abuse of power.

      The question for me however is whether Dana has ever received a reasonable and adequate explanation for a) why the police were called, and b) why she was physically manhandled c) why she was taken to jail, and d) why she was prosecuted.

    • Yossie

      Mark

      “The key question for us is not whether Dana understands the need to pay”

      I think it actually is a key question. If he does not understand the concept and then builds up a grudge because of it, then its a problem. People should understand that they are not buying their relatives to get in here. They are paying for the investication.

      “the right to family should not be dependent on paying an ‘administration fee’”

      This much I agree. Whether our views on family reunification requirements might differ, I agree that is should not be a matter of administrative cost.

      The problem here might be that if there is not a meaningful cost for an application, people might try their luck even if they dont have viable right for reunification. That would overburden the reunification system and make application times even longer.

      “One of the key issues here for Dana was the feeling that she had when she was being manhandled”

      You cant start making issues based on that. No one that gets manhandled by police dont like it. As such are you saying police shouldnt manhandle anyone? Ask nicely to obey law and if they refuse, just do nothing?

      “The question therefore is whether a breakdown in communication in the social offices should result in a criminal conviction”

      Its still unclear to me what made social workers to call police. If the reason was that she was obstructing their ability do their work, then yes, it was right for her to get jailed.

      Do you think social service can work if people start obstructing their work when they dont get what they want? If you think there is something wrong with the services they provide, then campaing for them to be changed, but accepting activity that prevents social services to work as intended should not be tolerated.

      “The question therefore is whether Dana has ever received a reasonable and adequate explanation for a) why the police were called, and b) why she was physically manhandled c) why she was taken to jail, and d) why she was prosecuted.”

      Should she not got all the court documents about her case? Would these not be adequate?

  11. Brave

    Concept of processing fee is alien to you? The application process decides if you have right to bring your family to here. They cant tell if its your right or not before they have investigated your case.
    …………………

    Yossie u r a lover of law but u need to know, there is no law if there is not a writer for it… means human writes law and so they can write it for their benefits too if they wish so…and in the name of law they can do what ever they want.
    It is what they done to me in the name of law they scammed me.
    Yes i paid a big fat money to them for 3 persons in my family u thought its for free?
    What ever i say u again repeat ur empthy words yes Jossie why????
    U r doing against ur own spirit…. u dont want see fact.
    U just support them and u think whatever they do is right and correct????
    How its come ????
    If world and laws were correct why there are problems in our world????

    U dont know how they treated me… just wait wait wait and again wait wait wait
    How can u feel if some/one do something against ur family and insult u too????
    difficult question u cant answer it, u dont have my experience and u dont know what is the mean of waiting wait waiting wait waiting not for days and month, but 3 years and then my moma gone and so
    How can i expalin this terrorists?

  12. Brave

    Hard to tell when I dont know what happent between you getting there with an appointment and police getting there. What happent in between?

    Oh again u and ur doubts???
    Awww i had not ur phone number to call u and tell u please come here ( u were not my friend and still u r not, and u wont be never… u r my enemy )today it will happen a tragedy to me they want terror me with soul and body.. come Jossie and watch everything with all details.
    So there is only and only one fact and answer for u with or without argue …because u just believe them and u cant believe that they are not perfect…. Jossie there is no perfect except GOD.
    So u dont need argue… u dont need answer, u need information u need nothing because u Jossie are perfect an du know everything in advance and u know all facts and so why u make your eyes tired on net????

    • Mark

      Dana

      I think it would be useful if you did answer the question that Yossie asked, and others have asked too. Otherwise, Yossie will likely claim some kind of victory in this debate even when the full facts are not known. He will attempt to completely invividualise this problem and make it about you not following police orders.

      Why were the police called? You were waiting for an appointment, but did you decide to stay on the chair when they said you had no appointment? Did the police ask you to leave? If they did, why did you choose not to?

      I have already said what I think about how your case opens up very important questions about how people who are desparate are treated, but I still would like to know more information about your case. Not because I want to blame you, but I want to know at what point the system appears to have failed you.

      Did the court case against you come about AFTER you started to try to make a complaint against the police? This is a very important question. Also, why did it take a year to come to court?

      Did you meet anyone at the social offices after that? Did you get your problems looked at?

  13. Brave

    Have you ever considered that if everyone is siding with police, you were the one in fault? Also isnt it a bit paranoid to see everyone racist and being in union with each other?

    Everyone was in police side, my lawyer, court, and ambudsman,…,…,…,…etc… Finnish law and everyone in court.
    So all of them terrored me in a day time and infront of big open eyes of world and they all done that in the name of law.
    They are in union even they dont know eachother in person, even they have different jobs… yes its racist because it is prejudice… perjudice means they
    all believed police is better than me.
    They treated me like am a slave and police is a king.

    Not at all paranoid but fact OOOPs dont label me with ur favorite words, be careful when u talk to me… am not that kind of human u saw in ur whole life but different, i was standing alone for my right, i wnet alone to court, to a court i knew it will be torture , u just try against yourself, i dont need tell u anything because u r an enemy for yours.
    U like that i come here and praise those terrored me?? Its not possible for my soul.

  14. Brave

    Thanks Mark,
    What happened there was a wish of my social workers.
    It was very clear to me.
    Everything was like a program and plan.
    They could not see and could not believe that am a strong human who can see and can ask why?
    There was acmera in the corners of corridore.
    So i got a record.
    I have this record in my laptop now.
    also i have pics too but record is better.
    court did not open the record and told me they cant open it.
    I have all pepers with me.
    Even i have that appointment time that telling me…
    WE HAVE APPOINTMENT TIME 1.2.2011 at 10 oclock.
    Its very importnat, that we meet then,
    ….
    also i have my answer to her too.
    I told
    I will come,….
    also their boss
    telling me on aletter she sent me home

    Olen hyvin pahoillani siit’ miten tapaaminen p”ttyi helmikussa ( they all knew there was aterror for me)
    ……
    Also the only thing can be my witness as a human…is
    A Finnish woman that i dont know her at all… but social workers all saw her and should knew her very very well
    Because this woman came to corridore and saw polices me and 3 social workers …she saw the fact…me under pressure and pain and she felt angry and told something like its not good what they are doing about me,………
    I know this and i remember this but i dont remember her face i been under torture and insult( never saw her before, i seldom went to that office.. i did not need translater and i done all i want by me always)
    But police told her something and she could not help
    She was talking to them all, she tried to help but she could not, she really wanted help but she was alone.
    I guess she was a social worker or ,… but a person belong to office for very sure.

    She was the only one came and saw the fact

    My papers show that there was a very big and cruely terror against me from social workers and last step the court.
    I was complaining to court about them and court was against me how its possible?
    Court was not for me and my right but it was me who cplained to court.
    I know for %100 that there is no human right for me in Finland i got this not in one moment on a few days… but with my whole soul in all moments, days, month and years i been under attack and insult.

    • Brave

      Why were the police called? You were waiting for an appointment, but did you decide to stay on the chair when they said you had no appointment? Did the police ask you to leave? If they did, why did you choose not to?
      2…..
      I have already said what I think about how your case opens up very important questions about how people who are desparate are treated, but I still would like to know more information about your case. Not because I want to blame you, but I want to know at what point the system appears to have failed you.

      Did the court case against you come about AFTER you started to try to make a complaint against the police? This is a very important question. Also, why did it take a year to come to court?
      ……………..
      Hi Mark,
      I had an appointment time, i went there, they insulted me, they mmade argue with me in their room and they told me about police that they will call to police..
      i left there
      I went and find a chair and was sitting there because i felt so bad in me about their behave…that i trusted their appointment time and i went there even i knew them and i know their are not friends and helper.
      So how they can do this to me…
      I knew i should defend me but i had nothing and no/one with me just knew i should not live there because i they had not right to insult me.
      So i just kept silent and was sitting on chair
      even they came to me again and again i changed my chair
      They wanted me leave there
      and i did not want ebcause it was againt my right… i went there with their won invitation i never asked for taht invitation
      so why they treated me that way
      i just knew i should not leave there i should solve this things because a a human even i know i ahve no/one in my side… but it was hard
      situation.
      as they mentined me before in their room that they will call police

      They done that
      first police told them tahts not their job
      But they talked to police
      police told me leave
      i told them with respect an dpolite
      I have respect for law and u but i cant i told i have problem
      But police was ready to attack… was like it was a good apportunity to them to show their power
      Then they attacked me
      I even did not stand infront of them
      i felt terror arround me so i just put my hands on my chest and did not move from chair wanted they see am not danger.
      But they done what they wanted.
      ………………………

      2…
      Oh i know Mark. u r a friend thanks.
      ……………………….
      3.terror happened in 1.2.2011
      and i got a letter from court in 23.11.2011
      it wants me for court
      that will be
      in
      19.3.2012 the date of court that i wnet without a lwayer.
      its like more than a year
      …..
      I made a complain about police and social workers the day after that day it means 2.2.2011 and i gave it to court… they told me i should wait for answer.

      I dont know why it take a year and more… because it was about police they did not want make a court against police because they thought police is law, so they made a long time for me to wait for them… they wanted me to afraid of them and go and tell oh give me back my complain i have nothing for complain.
      …………….

    • Mark

      Dana

      Thanks for the further information. I understand this is very personal for you and sharing information with people who clearly started out with no intention of being objective in assessing this situation must be difficult too.

      No-one can really know this situation for what it was except the people involved. It is also true that there were different perspectives, each valid in their way in this situation: that of the staff, that of the police, that of the witnesses, and your own. People operate with the tools and information that they have, and I’m reluctant to blame the people in the office Dana for exactly the same way that I would not blame you, because it is not always easy to know best how to handle a situation, and without clear and compassionate guidelines, then people can too often respond through fear or insecurity.

      As far as the system in Finland is concerned, I think it should be clear that anyone going to the welfare offices is in some way in a vulnerable situation, some more than most. For refugees, this situation is often magnified in ways that ordinary citizens CANNOT FULLY UNDERSTAND. This creates a very dependent relationship between the state and the citizen from the word go. And that level of ‘dependence’ needs special training to manage compassionately and in a way that fully respects the rights and dignity of the individual.

      The key danger is institutionalised thinking – how many times has it been said, “well that’s the system”, when everyone clearly understands it isn’t working. At the same time as people instinctively know this to be true, they nevertheless refuse to accept that the ‘system’ is seriously damaging or harming people’s well-being or in need of reform. The responsibility for ‘handling’ the system is thereby shifted to the individual. Indeed the system effectively becomes immune to criticism. Staying in denial therefore about the potential harms of institutionalised norms is itself a very typical consequence of institionalised thinking and, in turn, it also leads to decisions and attitudes that undermine human dignity.

      I think in this situation, this is what appears to have happened to you Dana. You have come against the infamous Finnish bureaucracy, but rather than have established networks to fall back on, and also an understanding of just how crass the system can be and some of those that run it, you have had to suffer the full emotional force of its insensitivity. With the benefit of support networks, with a degree of cynicism (which people do develop), most citizens are protected from the devastating effects of bureaucratic stone-walling. But immigrants are in even more of a difficult situation. They are exposed to institutional failings in a way that ordinary citizens often find hard to appreciate.

      Your decision to ‘fight’ in a typical Ghandi way of ‘peaceful protest’, while admirable, was not the right way for you to handle this situation. But you didn’t know that. However, it could and should be common knowledge to both the Social Welfare staff and the Police that you would not know that this is a counterproductive, yet perfectly understandable, way for you to deal with the situation.

      The key thing, especially for the social office staff, is to avoid escalating problems and to provide proper support. That’s the starting point. However, I think you are right in saying that in this instance, they have decided to fall back behind a ‘show of power’. That is often how people behave who themselves feel powerless. They felt threatened by the fact that you simply didn’t go ‘quietly’ and rather than bring in someone trained to deal compassionately with a situation like this and de-escalate it, they decided to threaten you with the Police. That was a clear, obvious and unnecessary escalation. They put up the wall. I don’t think this is racist, per se, but I think it is clearly influenced by the fact that you are a foreigner and that brings with it uncertainties.

      I understand that this was an awful thing to hear, that they will call the police – you are there fighting for basic human rights, for your family, and their answer is to make you feel like nothing better than a criminal. I guess they were simply not sensitive enough to understand that this kind of ‘threat’ is an insult to a person’s dignity. That is the effect of institutionalisation: it makes the harmful effects of that institution’s operational procedures and approach seem ‘normal’ and even reasonable.

      It seems like the police at first understood this principle and I would have thought that this basic principle of avoiding unnecessary escalation is indeed a key part of their training. However, they seem not to have been able to assert their proper authority and were swayed by the ‘desperation’ of the staff. In doing so, they completely ignored the possible effects on you, Dana. Whatever other people say about what Dana should or should not have done, this event has been extremely damaging for her. The system is not there to damage people – it is there to support and properly advise people.

      I also understand that it is there to make decisions, but these should be defended in compassionate ways that respect people’s dignity and right to respond emotionally in an honest way, i.e. to be disappointed. What’s required then is validation, not stone-walling. If the system cannot support people in the way that they are asking, then it should be prepared and ready to support them in other ways. This should be a basic principle of welfare work, and indeed, I’m sure it is at one level, meaning therefore that training and procedures need to be looked at to make sure that this is carried through to the ‘shop floor’.

      Once the police have made a decision to ‘remove’ a person from a premises, it is typical that they will use what they consider ‘necessary’ force, based on the amount and type of resistance. This is to an extent subjective, and again, the notion of ‘handling’ a person in the normal Finnish context and in other cultural contexts varies. A woman from the Middle East should not be touched by a man against her will. This is not saying anything about what happens when men abuse women or how the cultures in general tackles that abuse or not. The question is that it is part of their values that women should not be touched. From your perspective Dana, unless you are actually fighting them, you are not giving them any reason to touch you. In Finland, it is not like that.

      The police should have sensitivity training that helps them understand how to deal with people from different cultures. There are enough refugees in Finland from the Middle East for the police to have enacted some basic training on this issue.

      So what are the real alternatives? Community liaison is the simple and constructive answer.

      When the welfare offices began to understand that Dana was not behaving in a way that they expected and when they themselves felt powerless to help further, then they should have called in someone from the Iranian community, either to attend in person or to speak to Dana over the phone. This establishes support for Dana and provides a bridge with the social services, so that they can better understand how the situation appears from Dana’s point of view and how they can move forward. These community links should be already established and readily available to the social welfare staff.

      Calling the police was the wrong call.

      Prosecuting Dana for obstruction was the wrong call.

      Failing to open the system up for criticism and reform is the wrong call.

      The person that has suffered most in this situation is Dana. Anyone who forgets that is working to the wrong ends in my view. The system is not there to harm people.

  15. Brave

    Mark ,
    Correction

    Thier boss sent me a letter to my home and
    Telling me
    Olen hyvin pahoillani siitä, miten tapaaminen päättyi helmikuussa.

    also
    In my record
    there is other witness i know her if i see her again
    She came out of her room when polices attack me and she watching and then she go to her room and close the door.
    Yes

  16. Brave

    I think it actually is a key question. If he does not understand the concept and then builds up a grudge because of it, then its a problem. People should understand that they are not buying their relatives to get in here. They are paying for the investication.

    Jossie
    Ur perfect law should give us information for first
    secondly i just knew its a cruely thing but i wanted my family and could not do anything else.
    I did not know anything… i just knew i have no power in thsi situation an di should pay them…tahts was the only way for me.

    Oh so u Jossie tell they are not buying their relatives and i tell but they should pay to scammers why???
    Why u support scammers?

  17. Brave

    Jossie whatever ur law and police and immigration police and social workers, system,… do is right and correct
    and what i done all are wrong and crime?
    I had appointment time and went there for talk its a crime?
    If i had not appointment time again it was a crime in ur mind?
    I paid fat money to immigration offices again its a crime oh i paid money to them and its a crime for me???
    U r a joke Jossie joke of century.
    Again i write my blogs in my freedom its a crime?
    But
    U
    Insulting me its right and ur right?
    U attacking me its right and ur human right?
    U insult my family its ur right????
    My mother left this world two weeks ago just 28.5.2013 and u insult her its ur right???
    I been in jail… was my right??

    Do u want drink my blood? Can u feel better after that?
    What u want more Jossie?

  18. Joonas

    Ok, this topic has been discussed in several different blogs and it is quite confusing what is said in which. I try to make a short summary of the incident what happened to make it more clear. If my summary is incorrect or I have missed something, please feel free to fix/add them. I just want to make sure if I have understood it correctly:

    – She had an appointment 1.2.2011 at 10 oclock at social service office
    – She went there, but the appointment was cancelled or postponed (is this correct?)
    – Something happened, which is still not clear [clarification is in order], and they had to call the police
    – Police arrived and they told her to leave
    – She refused to leave the premises and there was other verbal communication between the social workers, police and Dana. There was also a Finnish lady defending her.
    – Because she mentioned that the police touched her leg, I would assume they were carrying her out(?)
    – After the incident the police took her to the jail
    – She complained to an ombudsman, but he did not agree with her views
    – She asked a help from the lawyer, but he did not believe in her case
    – After one year she is sent to court and she is found guilty for the charges [what the charges might be?]

    • Brave

      Joonas
      What u want know more?
      U r president?
      U know much and still u try to show that they are right, so why i must answer ur questions?
      Tell me why?
      U try to show to public that am hiding somethings??? This is ur goal

      I had an appointment time
      Nothing cancel, why u speaks about cancel??? i never told cancel stuffs u just like to make it easy for yours?
      They insulted me with words, they made argue
      They had no right
      I left room
      There was a corridore
      I went there
      Was sitting on chair
      They wanted me leave there and i told them no…
      Because i had right to defend me even i did not know how… just knew i should not leave there,…
      They already told me in their room they will call police….
      so i knew i shouldnot talk to them if i want me safe.
      so i did not want talk to them in corridore, just knew should defend me.
      They called police
      And u know all
      So
      Now
      U Joonas
      tell me about ur private matters in ur life? about ur family?
      U dont tell anything and u want alot.
      U put me under a pressure
      Because u try to show to others that am guilty and bad person( its very hard to me to go to past and remember all and expalin u guys… specially u r all against me… i just feel my wound again and again and plus that i have ur attacks on MT too )
      Exactkly everything shows they terrored me and u try to show am a bad one.
      Yes police were carrying me out sure i did not flight to out and their car/ they pushed me to that way and their car…their car has a jail also.
      sure i did not want go to their car and i was trying to save me, but i could not.

      Now ask me why i did not tell them hey racists i love u, thanks for insult, am grateful, please let me wordship u?

      We went to a big jail and again insult and then jail and before i come home they took my pic and finger prints,…. all insult for me all tragedy and u all think and sure they done right and tahts normal.
      How can i tell u tahts not normal, torture is not normal

      Dont u know whats charges? Charge is money

  19. Brave

    – Something happened, which is still not clear [clarification is in order], and they had to call the police

    What u wnat to know Joonas?
    U think there was real reason for them to call police? the only reason they had was why i dont leave there and why i am sitting on the chair in the corridore, u cant believe it and u dont want believe its starnge but it does not mean i hide things.
    If i ahd problem with this case i had not barve to come on MT and tell this fact.
    And u never tell oh why police attacked her u all tell oh why she did not leave there.
    ……..
    something happened yes, they insulted me in their room.
    Who are u?
    U want me to take a camera with me and take a movie for u with all details???
    Its like
    U Joonas
    something happenes to u in street… and then u find yourself in hospital and then others come to u
    and ask u
    What happened?
    U tell the fact
    They want more and more
    more and more
    again more and more
    and this never stop
    More and more
    They even want to know what colour was the buss u saw before ur accident.
    again they want to know
    what that woman told u, a woman who was close to u before accident
    again they want to know what colour was her eyes
    and her skirt
    and her socks
    then they want to know how old are u. u should show ur ID, u should expalin more an dmore
    and they are no/one except they want support that driver who broken ur legs… they have no power but they just want hurting u more an dmore because it makes them happy.
    How many building were there, which one was infront of u
    Why u went to street?
    What u told to driver after he came on ur leg with his car?
    have u been angry? have u been happy? have u been scary? have u been shock? why? why? why?
    Thats my stroy with u

    U r a true enemy.

  20. Brave

    Joonas
    To who are u speaking?
    U should not tell she u should tell me Dana an dthen u can start ur comment
    because
    U did not mention any name on ur comment
    To who are u speaking and asking questions?
    To me yes?
    So why u insulting me with ur way?

    U tell
    Okay this topic has Blah bblah
    and then u tell she had an appointment….
    whats this comment? Its for who?
    U dont mention any name
    U just ask
    And u dont use my name
    like
    U asking question and u dont use my name?
    What a big insult thanks
    What can i tell more than thanks? truely what?
    Its like
    U dont want come close to me, am dirty and u r better than me, u dont want use my name on ur comment but u just curious… u want exciting story.
    Many people want exciting stories… they are only here for watch… no/one see them .
    Its a real story of mine, a pain in me … its a language of my wounds.
    am not playing a role in ur theatre for making u happy.
    Am telling this to all are watching me here for fun.

  21. Brave

    You cant start making issues based on that. No one that gets manhandled by police dont like it. As such are you saying police shouldnt manhandle anyone? Ask nicely to obey law and if they refuse, just do nothing?

    oh just do nothing? u dancing so badly with words Joss joss
    Jossie
    U want war between people and police? a fight?

    It is twenty first century JOSSIE open ur eyes…oh 21th century and still here in Finalnd u think if police told a person leave and she did not police should do something important… attack her and throwing her in jail for show …
    Yes we have power????? we hate u… we torture u for we want show to all people we have power, thats a lesson
    Are u coming from forests and behind mountains or u were born in city ?
    Are u sure that u r a civil?
    What kind of problem do u have with me Jossie?
    What kind of civil wants fight?
    we have brain we dont need fight we can talk in peace we can find best ways in peace why fight? Why?
    Aagain that was nota right fight because i been alone… my hands were behind me and in bracelet.
    U know me?
    What u want more?
    U andsome people like u are like all were against me…. u all are in same union u all think yourself better than me…thats problem…otherwise i told story and still u are angry??? u r not able to understand these i told u just want an dtry to support eachother on MT.
    U know why??
    Becaus when i tell more about fact it makes u more angry and sad.

  22. Joonas

    “Nothing cancel, why u speaks about cancel??? i never told cancel stuffs u just like to make it easy for yours?”

    – I was assuming this because they were not willing to see you, but wasn’t sure. That’s why I asked in the summary if it is correct or not. But ok, your meeting was not cancelled. Did they explain why they were not willing to see you?

    “They insulted me with words, they made argue”

    – How did they insult you? You were referring them as racist before, so did they use any racist slurs?

    “They already told me in their room they will call police”

    – So, they warned you about the police, but you were still not willing to leave? Ok, that explains why the police arrived.

    “tell me about ur private matters in ur life? about ur family?
    U dont tell anything and u want alot. U put me under a pressure”

    – It was not my goal to put you under pressure. But if you are making a blog topic about yourself and talk about your personal life, you must understand that questions are raised and not everyone will agree with you. If I some day will make a blog topic about the thing that is related to my life, I can share more information about myself. And I did not ask about your family in any point. If you feel uncomfortable you are not forced to tell anything more about the case.

    “What u wnat to know Joonas? U think there was real reason for them to call police? the only reason they had was why i dont leave there and why i am sitting on the chair in the corridore”

    – You explained really well what happened in your previous message

    “And u never tell oh why police attacked her u all tell oh why she did not leave there.”

    – Police did not “attack” you. They removed unwanted person from the premises and even you mentioned that you got a few verbal warnings before this happened. I would have left with the first warning.

    “something happenes to u in street… and then u find yourself in hospital and then others come to u”

    – One of my friend was hit by a tram and she truely doesn’t remember anything about it for understable reasons. But in this case you were not seriously physical harmed and no brain damage was caused, so I though you might remember the details much better.

    “U did not mention any name on ur comment”

    – I did not mention to your name, because the message wasn’t only directed to you, but to everyone who has been following this story. I have been referring to your name before, when the message is only directed to you, Dana.

    “U dont want come close to me, am dirty and u r better than me”

    – Well, now you are just getting paranoid. I have never used any insults towards you or treated you any differently I would treat any other in MT. However, I am quite skeptical about your story and what happened.

  23. Brave

    – How did they insult you? You were referring them as racist before, so did they use any racist slurs?

    I did not know i should put down their words and our conversation for such a days i have with you Joonas u who are against my rights.
    So just imagine whatever u want i dont care any more and believe ur small word.

    Joonas be skeptical am no worry at all.. thats ur quality u cant change yourself its difficult for u i understand it specially am a foreigner and specially u see yourself in high and clouds and look at me in down and under ground… i dont care about u.
    But how can u believe them all very perfectly and clearly??? whats ur reasons?
    Not strange for u? U exactly believe them and u exactly try to work against me…
    Now my turn…. and in this case am not skeptical i know whats ur goal, i know u very well.
    U get more answer u feel more exciting and panic.

  24. Brave

    Police did not “attack” you. They removed unwanted person from the premises and even you mentioned that you got a few verbal warnings before this happened. I would have left with the first warning.

    Joonas,
    Grow up
    Police attacked me it is me who can tell police attacked me or not…
    U r not me
    So u can answer this question instead me
    Are you Dana?
    so why u telling police did not attack me?
    I was not unwanted person u should put enough time on what i wrote to u and this blog…
    I had appointment time
    I been there in right time
    in their room
    why u think i was unwanted person?
    I told i got invitation, i had appointment time.
    so how it comes u call me unwanted person.
    I tell u
    Because u Joonas think am unwanted person in Finalnd
    For ur information
    It was ur Finnish Group in Turkey United nation office Who accepted me for here…i did not come here directly and with my will.
    So am not unwanted person, stop it insulting,u have no right to talk to me like this.
    Who do u think u r???
    Who?
    verbal warning wasa big insult and attack to me, they should not tell this because i been a customert there and i went there with invitation, for their will not mine.
    They should not bring police word and matter for their customer who trusted them and went there.
    U understand itnow? u get it?? or still u r playing with ur doubts?
    Was not it racist act?
    From first moments they tell about police… what that mean?
    They were my hunter i did not know.
    So i should sit on a chair for maybe someone can explain me whats their goal? for i need defend me and i have nothing except a chiar to sit there and no word except be silent.
    What u wnat more?

  25. Brave

    Joonas
    When they told me about police
    It was mean
    U r a danger thing here we need call police
    We hate we will call police
    They put me down withn this word
    They telling me with police word
    That i deserve punish and attack..

    U cant understand these
    but u just can easily say
    Police did not attack u?
    and u telling me that…. I would have left with the first warning.
    Yes u
    But u r not Dana
    we dont feel an dthink same smae
    we are two different human
    I dont want see myself under insult, i respect my soul and spirit…
    It is not important for u??? okay u leave
    But for me no… even i could not help me but i could not work against myself so i went out in corridore and… chair… and else

    • Brave

      Jossie,
      Insult means insult… so u dont know what is insult means? Really?
      U want words and again u will say oh this is not insult oh u do wrong and blah blah balh…
      I KNOW U JOSSIE I KNOW VERY VERY VERY WELL PEOPLE LIKE U.
      Dont try to hunt me, u yourself are in a big trap then u want hunting me?

      My spirit laughs at your spirit.

      Sure i did not tell them thanks and i love you, they could not seea strong foreigner… they could not see power of my mind.
      Jossie U r nothing for me… u cant fight with me with ur words
      If i gave answers here it was for humanity for other humans… foreigners plus Finns because i dont want anything happenes to them like happened to me.
      So dont forget that
      and remember my real story feed ur spirit, enjoy it Jossie.
      I feed spirits with my real story… i wish people in every colour and race ( Finns and foreigners )Learn their lessons from this story and respect eachother.
      There are many lessons in this story.
      Welcome people.

    • Yossie

      “U want words and again u will say oh this is not insult oh u do wrong and blah blah balh…”

      Yes, this was a possibility I was thinking. You seem to take anyone disagreeing with you as an insult. If this is what happent in the welfare office and if you responded like you responded to me earlier with colorful insults like “cruel animal”, “sick and dirty mouse”, then dont be suprised they ask you to leave.

    • Mark

      Yossie

      Yes, this was a possibility I was thinking. You seem to take anyone disagreeing with you as an insult. If this is what happent in the welfare office and if you responded like you responded to me earlier with colorful insults like “cruel animal”, “sick and dirty mouse”, then dont be suprised they ask you to leave.

      Because of course everyone on this blog has worked really hard to understand and sympathise with Dana’s situation, haven’t they? Well, no. And then when she defends herself against the blatant judgementalism being expressed here, you use that against her too, suggesting that of course she deserved the treatment she got. It’s a no-win situation you set up for her Yossie.

      The problem is that you do not realise what it is like to be a refugee in a foreign country, fighting an unknown bureaucratic system to try to get become reunited with your family. You do not know what the rejections feel like or the cold manner in which these ‘rules’ are played out. You don’t know what it’s like to travel from one country to another in Europe being passed around like a parcel, waiting for a country to accept you into safety and security. You simply don’t know, so you have no idea the pressures that Dana is under.

      Also, I think you need to read deeper into her use of the word ‘insult’. Again, you speak from the prism of your own culture and then complain when her words don’t match to your own language use. In the Middle East, ‘honour’ carries a different value. Being honoured is highly valued – it is the glue that keeps Middle Eastern societies together. You can scoff all you want, but all societies have their ‘glue’. So when people are deliberately and openly cynical, cold, judgemental and accusatory, as people have been on this blog towards Dana and her account, then it is indeed an assault on her dignity, which she describes as an ‘insult’. This isn’t hard to understand.

      However, most of the keyboard warriors posting comments here are pretty darn cerebral in the way they try to understand these issues. Dana respond as if you were talking to her face to face. Her reactions are a damn sight more honest and real than half the posts written here in response to her, which rather attempt to manipulate her story to suit their own ideological ends. You, Yossie, are here to discuss immigration, which I’m guessing barely affects your ‘real’ life. This IS Dana’s life. Huge difference. And you baulk at the fact she takes it personally? There is no accounting for the stupidity of people, or the unrealistic expectations, or the sheer sense of entitlement and privilege that allows them to stand in judgement of others.

      At the end of the day, the Welfare Office is supposed to look beyond issues of personality to recognise and address social and psychological need. The people working there are not there to stand in judgement, like you are here. And if they took even half of your attitude, then my conclusion would also be that you are racists and hate foreigners and show no respect for human dignity. That would be my conclusion.

      What happened to simple human warmth and understanding in Finland?

    • Yossie

      Mark

      “It’s a no-win situation you set up for her Yossie.”

      And you set it up as a must-win situation for her

      “Again, you speak from the prism of your own culture and then complain when her words don’t match to your own language use.”

      Ofcourse I look it through the view point of my culture! We are in Finland and people are looking things through finnish standards. It is her who should have watched things through finnish standards and not of her own!

      “In the Middle East, ‘honour’ carries a different value. Being honoured is highly valued – it is the glue that keeps Middle Eastern societies together.”

      Maybe she should move to middle east where she can get glued to the society she likes! Great example of how the multicultural pipedream doesnt work. People dont understand each other and build up a grudge.

      “You, Yossie, are here to discuss immigration, which I’m guessing barely affects your ‘real’ life.”

      So I can have my say when my neighborhood and car burns because of failed immigration? Would that not be far too late then?

      “This IS Dana’s life.”

      Yet you cant ignore the big picture. There is always personal stories but there is a level of immigration Finland can accept. You say Dana needs special services, I think you are right, the problem is that resources arent unlimited. As such, there needs to be limits how many immigrants we can take.

    • Mark

      Yossie

      And you set it up as a must-win situation for her

      So, you can play with words. But what do you mean? In my reasoning, society and Dana would both benefit from a different approach.

      Ofcourse I look it through the view point of my culture! We are in Finland and people are looking things through finnish standards.

      Well, if you insist on seeing the world only through your own eyes and refuse to understand how another person can see it differently, there is not much to say to you, clearly.

      On the issue of what Dana should learn and what Finns should learn, I think I’ve made enough points about BOTH issues to have served the interests of being impartial.

      Maybe she should move to middle east where she can get glued to the society she likes!

      You really are an ignorant prick, aren’t you!

      Great example of how the multicultural pipedream doesnt work.

      You mean that your insistence on holding on to your own ignorance is the reason multiculturalism won’t work? You might be right there!

      People dont understand each other and build up a grudge.

      Well, now you make a clear mistake. Just because you cannot or will not see past your own blue and white nose doesn’t mean that other Finns cannot either.

      So I can have my say when my neighborhood and car burns because of failed immigration? Would that not be far too late then?

      Thank you Yossie for illustrating my earlier point about the REAL racists on this thread trying to hijack Dana’s story to defame immigrants in general. Dana is right to call you out as a racist, Yossie. Because you are.

      Yet you cant ignore the big picture.

      I think I have tried to link to the big picture far more than anyone else seems bothered too in regard to this story.

      You say Dana needs special services, I think you are right, the problem is that resources arent unlimited. As such, there needs to be limits how many immigrants we can take.

      These are actually quite simple things to implement. It is and has been part of the development of services in the UK for some time. It is also a very strong theme in Finnish research and development of services, so it’s not like it doesn’t have a space in which to grow. The question is really taking Dana’s experience and understanding how to get the most out of a very bad situation, for her and for the services that clearly failed her.

      There are other Iranians in Helsinki, and others have written about their difficult experiences.

      Likewise, there are Iranian researchers in Finland who are trying to explore in more detail the specific challenges of integration and immigration from Iran. These are opportunities to build more specialised capacity into services that help immigrants transition into Finnish society.

  26. Joonas

    “But how can u believe them all very perfectly and clearly??? whats ur reasons?”

    – Well, based on everything you have said it has become quite clear what happened on that day. Which one do you think is more realistic scenario: A) Social workers, police, ombudsman, lawyer AND court has a conspiracy against you B) You overreacted, there was a misunderstanding and now you want to find a way to cope with this? Only thing what is still unclear is why they didn’t accept you, if you had a booked meeting… I mean, what was their reason they told you?

    “so why u telling police did not attack me?”

    – Because based on what you have said, the police (and social workers) first asked you to leave for several times. After you refused, they CARRIED you outside, but still not used any extended violence. Where is the attack? You did not mention that they beat you or caused any serious injuries.

    “Because u Joonas think am unwanted person in Finalnd”

    – Oh boy, this is so rich. “If he is doesn’t agree with me, then he must hate ALL foreigners”- method. Bravo *clap clap*! I don’t care about your ethnic-, religion-, language- or culture background… or anything else that might separate you from stereotypical native Finn. Even if you were my biological sister, I still would doubt your story if she would tell the same facts and in the same way as you do. And yes, you were unwanted person in the social service department as soon as they asked you to leave.

    • Mark

      Joonas

      “I don’t care about your ethnic-, religion-, language- or culture background… or anything else that might separate you from stereotypical native Finn.”

      And this of course is your understandable failure. But it shouldn’t be a failure of the system. You should care about people’s backgrounds, because until you do, there is no real moving forward, there is no understanding of why Dana has been badly affected by this experience.

      And if she was your sister, you would work harder to see what could be done or how Dana could be better supported. You are being self-deceptive here so as not to consider any possibility for the system to change or be changed.

      Joonas – who is taking what personally here? Seems like the pot calling the kettle black.

    • Brave

      – Well, based on everything you have said it has become quite clear what happened on that day. Which one do you think is more realistic scenario: A) Social workers, police, ombudsman, lawyer AND court has a conspiracy against you B) You overreacted, there was a misunderstanding and now you want to find a way to cope with this? Only thing what is still unclear is why they didn’t accept you, if you had a booked meeting… I mean, what was their reason they told you?
      ………..

      Joonas
      Thats clear for ur brain because u support them from ur deep heart and with ur free will
      Ur very simple one congrats…
      Social workers, police, ombudsman, lawyer AND court plus you Joonas .Dont forget that u r also with them and like them so i just add ur name in ur favour list
      I answerewd this question go and find it in this blog.
      crime is not a misunderstanding…even a child know that.
      ……….
      – Because based on what you have said, the police (and social workers) first asked you to leave for several times. After you refused, they CARRIED you outside, but still not used any extended violence. Where is the attack? You did not mention that they beat you or caused any serious injuries.

      Oh they carried me outside? but how?
      They used their dirty power on my body ( now ask me whats power mean dont shy just ask it Joonas and i wont answer to u )… and now u want serious injuries?
      Never seen a simple one like u…
      For u blood means serious injuries yes??? so simple u r
      Open ur eyes
      also dont forget that they did not need throwing me in car and keeping me in jail…
      and dont forget my torture times in jail.
      U can support racists Joonas i know very well the quality of u and ur brain.
      ……………
      – Oh boy, this is so rich. “If he is doesn’t agree with me, then he must hate ALL foreigners”- method. Bravo *clap clap*! I don’t care about your ethnic-, religion-, language- or culture background… or anything else that might separate you from stereotypical native Finn. Even if you were my biological sister, I still would doubt your story if she would tell the same facts and in the same way as you do. And yes, you were unwanted person in the social service department as soon as they asked you to leave.
      You work against yours joonas
      U are very directly support racists an dtelling me these
      Even on NET u have a super fanatical way for them and u telling me these…. HUH
      and
      finally
      I am very glad ( many bthanks to GOD ) that am not ur sister and no/one in ur family and far far far from u
      OH
      U r very scary Joonas

  27. Joonas

    And this of course is your understandable failure. But it shouldn’t be a failure of the system. You should care about people’s backgrounds, because until you do, there is no real moving forward, there is no understanding of why Dana has been badly affected by this experience.

    – People can adapt to the system; wherever they might live and learn it (either the easy or the hard way). I do support multiculturalism in individual level, but I do not support the idea that government officers should react differently to every person in Finland based on their background. There are some exceptions, but I do not think being a foreigner is one of them.

    “And if she was your sister, you would work harder to see what could be done or how Dana could be better supported.”

    – Actually no. If my family members are going against “the system”, they should be aware that the system will not just stand there hands behind it’s back. There are rules and laws for reason. I have condemned my friends actions before if they have been breaking the law – why would this be any different?

    “You are being self-deceptive here so as not to consider any possibility for the system to change or be changed.”

    – I do not consider it realistic that we should change the system for the one person or the police should treat person different because of her/his cultural/ethnic background. If a native Finn would have reacted in the same way, social workers and police would have done exactly the same thing.

    Joonas – who is taking what personally here? Seems like the pot calling the kettle black.

    – I do not take this personally as long as there is a direct insults towards me. Dana might feel that people who are against her views are “attacking” her, but have I insulted her in any point of this discussion? I did not share her views on the issue, that is true, but I did not use any insults.

    • Mark

      Joonas

      – People can adapt to the system; wherever they might live and learn it (either the easy or the hard way).

      Really? And why not simply take the opportunity to reform the system or open it up to criticism? I don’t understand this, Joonas? The system is not there to harm people. Dana was harmed through unnecessary escalations and a failure to explore constructive alternatives. The system can and should be reformed.

      I do support multiculturalism in individual level, but I do not support the idea that government officers should react differently to every person in Finland based on their background.

      Well, they do, and they are supposed to. So what you are calling for is the opposite of what social workers are currently supposed to practice. They are supposed to take individual characteristics into account, not to discrimate against them on that basis, but to know how best to serve them. It’s not about providing a different service, it’s about discovering and addressing the specific needs of a client and finding the best way to empower them.

      I’m afraid Joonas that you just do not know enough about how the system is supposed to work in Finland and you are applying a rationale that is derived rather from a vague notion of ‘equality’ that is being misapplied.

      Actually no. If my family members are going against “the system”, they should be aware that the system will not just stand there hands behind it’s back.

      We will have to agree to disagree. I think when your family members are directly affected, people are generally much more likely to want the limitations addressed and the system reformed. Perhaps you are just speaking from an ‘ideological’ position. Reality can be very different.

      I do not consider it realistic that we should change the system for the one person

      And yet you do not know how many people this affects? Just because it is one person here presenting the story doesn’t mean that this kind of ‘reform’ shouldn’t take place. The nature of the reform is quite straightforward and can be incorporated into normal ‘training’ sessions without great difficulty. Establishing community links with the major immigrant groups is just a no-brainer.

      or the police should [not] treat person different because of her/his cultural/ethnic background.

      If the police are dealing with a child, they will respond differently, because they know that the child’s needs and understanding are different to that of an adult. Likewise, if they are dealing with someone who has had a stroke or has other incapacities, they will respond differently. If they are dealing with young people and older people, they will likely adopt a different approach, varying between asserting authority and appealing to reason. This is normal stuff and normal human responses. It is not different treatment, as the notion of ‘treatment’ is to affect an outcome. if the outcome is that a situation has been brought under control, then that is the goal. The means will always differ and should take account of the people and the situation.

      What you suggest appears to be to rather an ideological straight-jacket that requires police officers to evaluate ALL their actions for some difficult notion of ‘equal treatment’, as if this could be easily quantified.

      but have I insulted her in any point of this discussion?

      I think you show a lack of compassion, but I don’t think you have insulted her. Then again, there is a fine line between the two.

  28. Joonas

    “And why not simply take the opportunity to reform the system or open it up to criticism? I don’t understand this, Joonas? The system is not there to harm people. Dana was harmed through unnecessary escalations and a failure to explore constructive alternatives. The system can and should be reformed.”

    – There are many things wrong with the current system, but I do not think this was one of them. There was a person who refused to leave even she was asked multiple times and because they cannot touch the person by themselves without getting sued, the police had to remove the person.

    “Well, they do, and they are supposed to. So what you are calling for is the opposite of what social workers are currently supposed to practice. They are supposed to take individual characteristics into account, not to discrimate against them on that basis, but to know how best to serve them.”

    – My apologies, I should have been more clear and rephase myself better. Yes, social workers do treat their customers differently when providing their services and for a reason – you are absolutely right. But I meant, how the government officers reacted in the situation Dana faced.

    “We will have to agree to disagree. I think when your family members are directly affected, people are generally much more likely to want the limitations addressed and the system reformed. Perhaps you are just speaking from an ‘ideological’ position. Reality can be very different. “

    – You might find me “cold”, but even the person breaking the law is close friend/family member of mine, I still side with the law. And yes, I have been in the situation like that.

    “And yet you do not know how many people this affects? Just because it is one person here presenting the story doesn’t mean that this kind of ‘reform’ shouldn’t take place. The nature of the reform is quite straightforward and can be incorporated into normal ‘training’ sessions without great difficulty. Establishing community links with the major immigrant groups is just a no-brainer.”

    – I do fully understand your point of view and high possibility that some others have face the same treatment, but I do not agree with your views.

    “If the police are dealing with a child, they will respond differently, because they know that the child’s needs and understanding are different to that of an adult. Likewise, if they are dealing with someone who has had a stroke or has other incapacities, they will respond differently.”

    – This is why I said “There are some exceptions”. I can understand why a child or person with a sickness is treated differently, but Dana is an adult woman and for my understand, she doesn’t have any physical or mental sickness.

    “I think you show a lack of compassion, but I don’t think you have insulted her. Then again, there is a fine line between the two.”

    – I do agree that I could have shown more empathy towards her.

    • Mark

      Joonas

      – There are many things wrong with the current system, but I do not think this was one of them. There was a person who refused to leave even she was asked multiple times and because they cannot touch the person by themselves without getting sued, the police had to remove the person.

      A person has gone to an appointment at the social services office and through the handling of that appointment this person ends up being physically grappled by Police and then gets slapped with a criminal conviction for ‘obstruction’. This is effectively criminalising helplessness. And this from the agency in Finland geared to providing social ‘protection’. And who protects the most vulnerable in society from this agency and others??? And you don’t think it’s a cause for concern, Joonas.

      Joonas, you are whitewashing this issue. Not good enough! Blaming the individual while making no effort to properly address the lack of effectiveness or decency in bureaucratic procedures is not good enough. What does it take to demand a service that operates with the goal of reducing and minimising social harm and preserving wellbeing?

      Alternatives should be sought. It is not enough to say that she was asked to leave and then removed by the police. That is half the story, at best.

      – This is why I said “There are some exceptions”. I can understand why a child or person with a sickness is treated differently, but Dana is an adult woman and for my understand, she doesn’t have any physical or mental sickness.

      Your failure to recognise the special vulnerabilities and needs of refugees is indeed cold. Your reluctance to consider the alternatives or to consider the harms done to Dana are mystifying. This is just normal analysis. This is not applying any special rules here because she is a foreigner, though clearly her status as a foreigner (and especially as a refugee) must be adequately considered.

      Otherwise, you we are in a situation where Finland accepts refugees and then tells the world ‘but they will get no special treatment from us!‘. Why would we say that? Refugees are an exceptionally vulnerable population. Of course they should get specialised (not ‘special’) treatment, exactly the same way that specialised services are developed and targeted to other vulnerable populations within Finnish society. To offer less is itself discriminatory. You’ve already implied that physical or mental sickness are good reasons to consider different approaches, why can you not extend that understanding to refugees?

      At the end of the day, the outcome in terms of welfare application decisions would likely have been the same, but the way that people are treated, the alternative forms of support, and respect for dignity are what would mark the State out as being a compassionate actor in citizens’ affairs and not merely a cold bureaucracy concerned only with its own power, rules and the passive compliance of citizens.

      This reluctance to subject the procedures to proper oversight and review is baffling, Joonas.

  29. Joonas

    “A person has gone to an appointment at the social services office and through the handling of that appointment this person ends up being physically grappled by Police and then gets slapped with a criminal conviction for ‘obstruction’”

    – It is still unclear why they cancelled the appoinment, but after that there was an argument and the social service worker(s) asked her to leave for several times. They warned her about the police, but she still refused to leave. When the police arrived, they also asked her to leave, but because she was not willing to co-operate, she was CARRIED out.

    “And who protects the most vulnerable in society from this agency and others?? And you don’t think it’s a cause for concern, Joonas.”

    – Vulnerable people are still able to follow the rules. She could have easily leave when they asked her and call or come to visit another time. I believe they gave her a reason why they didn’t have the appointment during that time. There was probably some kind of mixup with the bookings and she probably could have an another appointment.

    “Joonas, you are whitewashing this issue. Not good enough! Blaming the individual while making no effort to properly address the lack of effectiveness or decency in bureaucratic procedures is not good enough.”

    – And you are taking away all the responsibility of the person just because she belongs to a minority group. I agree that we must help the people who are weaker or more vulnerable, but it doesn’t mean the person should be allowed to act against the law enforcements. Any sensitible person should understand if the police is asking you to leave, you will leave. Finnish police is not known for it’s corruption or violence, so I think you should be able to trust them.

    “Your failure to recognise the special vulnerabilities and needs of refugees is indeed cold.”

    – I did not know she was a refugee. If I remember right, she was from Iran(?) and the people I know from there are immigrants so I used my assumption – my mistake. Of course, we should protect refugees who are in Finland and help them to adapt. If she is traumatized by the reasons she became a refugee in the first place, the government should provide help in that sector.

    “You’ve already implied that physical or mental sickness are good reasons to consider different approaches, why can you not extend that understanding to refugees?”

    – Refugee is also an exception if she/he has mental disorder/disabilities or physical limitations. According to statics, many refugees has them. But if the person is perfectly functional adult, I do not think the police/social workers should treat her any differently than any common man.

    • Mark

      Joonas

      – It is still unclear why they cancelled the appoinment

      As far as I know, they didn’t cancel the appointment.

      They warned her about the police, but she still refused to leave. When the police arrived, they also asked her to leave, but because she was not willing to co-operate, she was CARRIED out.

      Interesting that when I complain that you are giving only half the story, you then choose to simply repeat it. The issue is what alternatives were there, Joonas? Why the police? Why not try to listen to Dana, to support her or reconcile the problems. A person doesn’t just decide to sit on a chair defiantly unless they feel desparate. Once you know this person is desparate, is the right response to escalate the situation by calling the police? Is this how social services provide ‘service’ to society’s most vulnerable?

      Even beyond this, she should not have been prosecuted. A refugee in Finland undergoing a painful transition should not be subject to that kind of Mickey Mouse strong-arm tactics. There is of course an element of discretion in this. How exactly does it serve the public to prosecute Dana in this situation? What is the pressing and urgent public interest? To teach foreigners not to mess with social services?

      – Vulnerable people are still able to follow the rules.

      Perhaps if you thought about what you wrote here you would quickly realise how wrong this is. Vulnerable people can feel overwhelmed in situations and would behave in ways that are not normal. They lack resources like confidence and self-esteem that would enable one to communicate one’s needs in a rationalised way. That is the whole point about recognising them as ‘vulnerable’. They are vulnerable to being stepped on by society because they DON’T have the normal defences.

      She could have easily leave when they asked her and call or come to visit another time.

      You are rationalising and applying a model built around the ‘norm’. When you are trying to help the most marginalised people in society, the first thing you learn is that you are not dealing with the ‘norm’ and that specialised resources and learning are required to support these people. In the old days, they called it compassion.

      – And you are taking away all the responsibility of the person just because she belongs to a minority group.

      This is a very serious allegation, Joonas. It’s also false. I have already expressed clearly my opinion that Dana should have done things differently. I think that with hindsight, Dana would also choose to act differently, given the harmful consequences that followed. This is not the issue I’m concerned with most, however. The issue that concerns me is how a vulnerable person is pushed into a corner like this, and how an overwhelming and stressful situation is allowed to escalate like this. It is simply in no-one’s interest for Dana to be prosecuted. It serves only to say that the system had no way to cope with Dana’s difficulties except to prosecute her. That is an outrageous outcome, by any standards. And this has NOTHING to do with the fact that she is a foreigner or a refugee. These elements identify her only as someone with particular vulnerabilities. There are plenty of Finnish citizens who are likewise vulnerable and I think if the same happened to them, I would be equally damning of the system that allows that to happen.

      I agree that we must help the people who are weaker or more vulnerable, but it doesn’t mean the person should be allowed to act against the law enforcements.

      And if the ‘law enforcement’ is being applied in the wrong way and in the wrong instance? The police were reluctant to intervene. They stated to Dana and the staff that this was not their purpose. But further discussions with the staff led to them intervening, suggesting that the staff were instrumental in pushing the situation to a point where ‘force’ was then applied, where she had to be arrested. That is a clear failure. And of course, any kind of resistance from Dana is interpreted as aggression, not as fear, or panic or anything else, which are equally likely. And then she is processed like a criminal, as if this in itself would have no damaging effect on her.

      For me, who has worked in the health and social welfare sector one way or another for nearly 15 years, this is a clear case where the system has made a client’s situation far worse even than what it was already. There is NO justification for this. Bad decisions were made all the way through. Be clear though, I’m not necessarily blaming the individuals or calling them racist. I’m saying that they probably would have behaved differently if it was a Finn (because they have more ways to communicate effectively) and I also think that the issue is training and resources, specifically being able to provide some familiarity for Dana, in the shape of community liaison. My view is not about ‘shifting responsibility’, but seeking ways for state institutions to act responsibly, especially when dealing with society’s most vulnerable, who are easily ‘stepped on’ by such a system.

      – Refugee is also an exception if she/he has mental disorder/disabilities or physical limitations. According to statics, many refugees has them. But if the person is perfectly functional adult, I do not think the police/social workers should treat her any differently than any common man.

      When I read this, I though, okay, Joonas is sensible, he knows when to acknowledge an obvious statement of positive intention. The issue is not one of mental disability necessarily. It is one of social and personal disorientation and a lack of proper community and personal resources. It can also be a matter of psychological damage, but these things are all wrapped up in each other anyhow, and so separating out and providing clear labels and diagnoses is not straightforward. In Dana’s case, it is very clear that she has been deeply and negatively affected by being transplanted away from her childhood home and her family. This really as plain as the nose on your face, Joonas. Now the question is, do you medicalise or socialise this behaviour, thus recognising her not as a person in need of ‘law enforcement’, but someone in need of support and specialised services, or do you decide that she is a person who really should know better and therefore must be processed as an ‘offender’? Criminalising Dana’s behaviour in these circumstances clearly indicates to me that the system has failed. It’s just as plain as the nose on my face.

      And people who defend it, referring as they do constantly to Finnish society’s ‘norms’ are simply failing to understand the nature of what is going on here. Dana’s situation is not normal, it is very far from being normal; and constantly demanding that she behave normally in a very abnormal situation is just plain daft. The real question is how does she make the transition from a very insecure position in society to a secure one? The answer is through specialised support. Not through criminalising her desperation.

      It’s a specialised response that is needed because most people apply the normal reasonings and rationalisations even when the immigrants in question have been through very extreme and traumatic experiences, or who find themselves in very abnormal circumstances, with few real resources. The only thing I would ask of Finns is to realise that this is not a situation for judgement, but for understanding and patience. If you treat Dana’s responses as those of an offender, because they don’t fit to the norm, then ultimately you may be instrumental in permanently damaging her or even turning her into a ‘real’ offender, someone who really has no respect for the law any longer, because she has already been labeled a criminal – what else is there to lose? Their dignity has been stripped away! The human value lost is a loss to society in general also.

      Dana feels that people are against her. On the evidence of this blog, I’d say that is true. To her, it seems that it’s a lot to do with her being a foreigner. I’d say that is true too. She understands that as ‘racism’, which though slightly off, is also true to some extent (many commentators seek only to exploit Dana’s story to further defame immigrants). We could call it xenophobia etc, but in her case, it’s directly related to her dark skin and the fact she is also a ‘visible minority’. The fact that throughout these discussions, assumptions are made about her religious beliefs, about her ‘Arab’ culture etc., indicate quite clearly that she is not viewed as an individual, but carries a stigma.

      One effect of stigmatisation is paranoia. When strangers attack you for no other reason than your appearance or origins, then it takes away a fundamental security that WE ALL TAKE FOR GRANTED, which is simply being an accepted member of society. There is no ‘level playing field’, which most of us enjoy, and it is very easy to start thinking people are against you. This effect is so common, and the negative response to it so common too that it is utterly depressing to watch. Discrimination leads to paranoia, which leads to the public turning a blind eye and blaming the individuals for everything negative that ever happens to them, because it has become clear that they are in some ways paranoid. Paranoia is a symptom of the problem, not some bizzare motivation to create the problem out of thin air.

      I think that Dana would benefit immensely from putting the word ‘racism’ into her back pocket and choosing not to use it. Perhaps she should use the word ‘negative attitude to a foreigner’. That would be helpful for her.

      But it’s wrong to think that this is all her responsibility to handle. Finns have to understand that when racism is allowed to become part of the community, then immigrants and minorities will start to feel paranoid, because their fundamental security HAS been threatened, by anonymous threats and hatred, which have been allowed to become part of the generalised ‘messages’ of society. This is why the condemnation of racism has to be so visible and so loud that it clearly contextualises these ‘minority’ message, puts them in their place. People need to stand up and add their voice in opposition, not stand on the sidelines picking through the accusations of racism trying to filter out the ‘false’ accusations so as to somehow save Finland’s reputation.

  30. Brave

    Joonas
    What are u telling me grow up

    And yes, you were unwanted person in the social service department as soon as they asked you to leave.

    I had appointment time so i wan not unwanted person.
    But also they have no right to terror even an unwanted customer.. a lesson for u Joonas u can improve ur morals with my story but okay i know u have no ability for morals.

    Those monsters cant send me invitation and then tell me am unwanted and i should leave.

    Now what about u are u an unwanted person for yours?

  31. Brave

    do not take this personally as long as there is a direct insults towards me. Dana might feel that people who are against her views are “attacking” her, but have I insulted her in any point of this discussion? I did not share her views on the issue, that is true, but I did not use any insults.

    Joonas,
    yes u insulting me because u telling me they were right…
    means they done right
    Menas Dana, they done what was ur right , u deserve it Dana
    u telling them bravo with ur words
    AND
    Because u telling me … Dana u r one, they were many, social workers two police, court, ambudsman , parliament, law… U r simple so simple because u look at

    QUANTITY not quality

    U r my enemy, u hate me so strong and this is a very good apportunity for u to show it, if u hate me such strong on net how u will show it in real???
    Thanks GOD am not close to u… not for i afraid of u NO i dont afraid of u and people like u but i dont like see haters all around me.
    U are with them and in their side with a completely love for them… what is this except love for racists???? U support them like exactly they are you yourself.
    yes u r insulting me because u put ur feets on my rights, because u have no respect for a woman who got attack from racists
    YES
    U are insulting me and many more

  32. Brave

    – You might find me “cold”, but even the person breaking the law is close friend/family member of mine, I still side with the law. And yes, I have been in the situation like that.

    Joonas,
    cold is better than u… even winter in Finland is nothing infront of ur heart.

    In the middle of coldness we can put a jacket on or more…then we feel warm but close to u its storm of ice blanket cant help, a carpet cant help, a wall cant help,fire cant help and …,…,… nothing can makes us warm .
    Even on net u r ice… ice temper.. coldtemper
    u fall in love with law, u dont believe that law can makes crime, u think law is perfect, u dont like change, u afraid of change…
    Change is very good
    U cant eat eggs for breakfast again lunch again dinner an dagain tomorrow an dafter tommow it will make u sick… u cant go to work with ur pajamas, can u?

    Even an ant can see my pains
    Its like u dont have any pain in u, u cant feel pain at all, u have no heart and u have no feeling for even yourself.
    Joonas u should love yourself and u should love yourself more
    Go and look at yours at mirror
    right now
    and tell yours
    I love you
    sigh

  33. Brave

    Joonas,
    u told u go to other countries, but how u cant improve ur experience about humans?
    U looks like aperson whohas a few information about life and tahts… law, police, and attack others if they dont agree with u.
    U go there and just visit table and chair in a restaurant?
    And for taste a new food even its not very good but better than brown bread and butter ur favour food?
    Or u go there for ur small business without see any important things except money and ur small goals?

    How many times in ur whole life u asked yourself a question? And u gave yourself a true answer?

    can u miss ur family?
    What about yours?
    Can u Joonas miss yourself?

  34. Brave

    Yossie,
    How u insult yourself and how u defend yourself when u insult youself?
    How you insult others?
    How u defend yourself if other person insult u?
    I know
    JUST look at ur first comment to me… then see how u insulted me.
    So in this case u make clear that u know very well whats mean of insult not very well but u can insult others very excellent
    so i give u a very big zero … ur score is zero
    Then why u ask a question that u know the answer?
    U playing game with me?
    We cant not play with a wound

    • Joonas

      “Now what about u are u an unwanted person for yours?”

      – I do not understand this sentence. Can you rephrase it? Do you mean, how would I feel in the similar kind of situation? Well, I have been in the situation when I had a doctor’s appointment, they had double booking for two people (who was already inside) and we agree for another appointment. Then I left and no police was needed…. I know, shocking.

      “yes u insulting me because u telling me they were right… means they done right”

      – Can you tell me how else I should comment about the case, if I can’t share your point of view in it? I believe they acted as they would act for anyone else (actually I saw similar kind of thing couple weeks ago, but the person was old, native Finnish lady). You think they did not and you believe there is a racist motivation behind this. Fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but I do not agree with them. Not agreeing with you is not insulting you, Dana.

      “U r my enemy, u hate me so strong and this is a very good apportunity for u to show it, if u hate me such strong on net how u will show it in real? U are with them and in their side with a completely love for them… what is this except love for racists?”

      – I have better things to do that hate anonymous person on the internet. I do not hate you, but I do not agree with you and think you were oversensitive about what happened to you. You gave me the information what happened during that day and based on what YOU told me I become to a conclusion that you could have handled the situation better.

      “Joonas u should love yourself and u should love yourself more”

      – Thank you for being “concerned” about my, eh, mental health and having lack of love in my life, but I have enough both of them and people around me. You don’t need to worry about it.

      “u told u go to other countries, but how u cant improve ur experience about humans?”

      – Well, I usually go abroad to experience things you might not find in Finland, meeting local people, enjoying their culture and sometimes also for doing business. And your point was? I have mostly good experience about the people from different cultures and majority of my friends actually consist them. This doesn’t mean I should be naive and agree everything they might say.

      “And for taste a new food even its not very good but better than brown bread and butter ur favour food?”

      – Quite stereotypical assumption that as a Finn I would like rye bread and butter.

      But I guess we just have to agree to disagree about the case. I do not believe our discussion is going any forward and don’t see any point to continue it, except if you think otherwise. If you want to live your life in delusion that everybody are against you and everything is racist, it is your choice. I do hope that some day you will try to move on and might change your opinions, but I doubt that.

  35. Joonas

    “As far as I know, they didn’t cancel the appointment.”

    – What do you call it if the decline to meet the person even she has booked appointment? I do not say it was right thing they did, but I would say indeed cancelled the appointment (without her permission).

    “Why the police? Why not try to listen to Dana, to support her or reconcile the problems”

    – As we know, there was an argument, so I would think both of them (Dana and social worker) raised their voices or used unfitting language. She was asked to leave, but when she did not, the most “normal” reaction is to call the police. You suggested that they could have called Iranian community which probably would have been more cultural sensitive method, but it really depends how strongly she reacted.

    “Once you know this person is desparate, is the right response to escalate the situation by calling the police? Is this how social services provide ‘service’ to society’s most vulnerable?”

    – It is not always easy to tell if the person is desperate. Desperation can be expressed in many different ways and some of those ways are (and should be) punished. You could say riots in Stockholm are out of desperation and you might sympathize with them, but they are still criminals.

    “Even beyond this, she should not have been prosecuted
    —-
    It serves only to say that the system had no way to cope with Dana’s difficulties except to prosecute her. That is an outrageous outcome, by any standards. And this has NOTHING to do with the fact that she is a foreigner or a refugee.”

    – Actually I agree with this one. If she did not resist the police or used any violence (and for my understand, she did not): I think they probably could have let this slide and plead to her mental state (stress, depression etc.). But I do not know every details about what happened, so it is hard to say.

    “To teach foreigners not to mess with social services?”

    Well… yes. You do not mess with social services.

    “They are vulnerable to being stepped on by society because they DON’T have the normal defences”

    – I feel you give don’t give enough credits to the vulnerable people in our society. Most of them are able to think and act accordingly to the society’s ‘norms’. If the person has depression, he/she still can understand that if police is called, he/she has done something wrong (in the similar kind of situation).

    “I have already expressed clearly my opinion that Dana should have done things differently.”

    – True, you did this and I did not notice your reply except after sending my message. It was probably more compassion reply to Dana than I gave. I was more blunt with my messages to her and our views about the subject are different, but it was not meant as a verbal attack. I think if somebody don’t say directly that she might be wrong, she can never move on.

    “I think that with hindsight, Dana would also choose to act differently, given the harmful consequences that followed.”

    – I’m not so sure about it. At least she has not showed any regret about her own actions so far.

    “Now the question is, do you medicalise or socialise this behaviour, thus recognising her not as a person in need of ‘law enforcement’, but someone in need of support and specialised services, or do you decide that she is a person who really should know better and therefore must be processed as an ‘offender’?”

    – In this specific case, I would say both. Person might need specialized service, but also when she does not follow the law, she should be punished. But as I said previously, I think to prosecute her was an overkill (if she just refused to leave and did not do anything else).

    “We could call it xenophobia etc, but in her case, it’s directly related to her dark skin and the fact she is also a ‘visible minority’. The fact that throughout these discussions, assumptions are made about her religious beliefs, about her ‘Arab’ culture etc., indicate quite clearly that she is not viewed as an individual, but carries a stigma.”

    – If you are referring to me, I cannot agree with this. I only mentioned that I do NOT care what her religion (or ethnicity) might be. If any white, Finn would have acted in the same way in the situation, I would have said exactly the same things. You might not believe this, but I guess there is no way I can prove it.

    “I think that Dana would benefit immensely from putting the word ‘racism’ into her back pocket and choosing not to use it. Perhaps she should use the word ‘negative attitude to a foreigner’. That would be helpful for her.”

    – Yes, it is slightly better term, but I still not think it is the correct one. Where did the people involved to this case used ‘negative attitude to a foreigner’? I do not appreciate when people throw ‘racism’ in the places where it doesn’t belong. It can be used when a foreigner immigrant bus driver is beaten, because he honked to a white Finn and according to the white Finn “In Finland we don’t honk the horns!” or other similar cases. But just because you are a foreigner and things are not going as you wanted, you should not use ‘racism’- word.

    “Finns have to understand that when racism is allowed to become part of the community, then immigrants and minorities will start to feel paranoid, because their fundamental security HAS been threatened, by anonymous threats and hatred, which have been allowed to become part of the generalised ‘messages’ of society.”

    – I would not say it has become allowed in Finland and MAJORITY actually condemns the racist acts. Condemnation might be silent sometimes.

    • Mark

      Joonas

      – What do you call it if the decline to meet the person even she has booked appointment?

      This was not the case, from my understanding, but I could be wrong.

      She was asked to leave, but when she did not, the most “normal” reaction is to call the police. You suggested that they could have called Iranian community which probably would have been more cultural sensitive method, but it really depends how strongly she reacted.

      This only serves to illustrate what I already said, that you (or they) were misapplying notions about the ‘norm’. Social workers in particular though should understand that their clients often have very challenging and different circumstances. You cannot continue to demand that people who are marginalised should behave as if everything was fine and dandy!

      – It is not always easy to tell if the person is desperate.

      Perhaps you are a bit more slow about about this issue, but to me, someone who is refusing to budge from her chair is feeling desperate. The message is clear – I have nowhere else to turn.

      Desperation can be expressed in many different ways and some of those ways are (and should be) punished. You could say riots in Stockholm are out of desperation and you might sympathize with them, but they are still criminals.

      Perhaps the Swedish police could advise you better than I then on why they choosing not to arrest wholesale and prosecute people torching cars. Of course, it’s important to recognise that the individual level and community level dynamics of desperation operate quite differently. A community that rises up in anger in many ways establishes peer support through a shared solidarity. This is not the case in Dana’s case.

      If she did not resist the police or used any violence (and for my understand, she did not): I think they probably could have let this slide and plead to her mental state (stress, depression etc.)

      I think this was a very important conclusion for me, and I’m glad to see there is room for agreement on this issue between us.

      – I feel you give don’t give enough credits to the vulnerable people in our society. Most of them are able to think and act accordingly to the society’s ‘norms’. If the person has depression, he/she still can understand that if police is called, he/she has done something wrong (in the similar kind of situation).

      Yet once again you are pulling strongly to the norm. It’s often been said that many people are poor so why do some turn to crime? Similar argument. But the issue is that individuals are different, and you can either take a prescriptive or descriptive approach – you can either say that people should do this or should do that, or you can say, well these people clearly do not have the same level of resources as another person in the same circumstances, either social networks or personal resources. The question is do you emphasise the prescriptive analysis and make it a matter of ‘offending’ by failing, or do you make it a matter of trying to find ways to make up for the lack of resoures, i.e. through specialised services that specifically target vulnerable clients?

      I guess you know where i stand on that one!

      Also though, I give enormous credit to Dana for being a fighter, even if she is sometimes fighting clearly in the wrong direction. She understands her position very well, I think, and yet she stands by her own principles and positive beliefs. It’s very hard when it seems that everyone really is against you.

      It seems to me that for people commenting on this blog, the support for Dana is entirely conditional on her passing a personality test, devised by bigots, implemented randomly and selectively, and designed to make her somehow an example of ‘all the reasons why immigration doesn’t work’ (see Yossie’s recent vile contribution).

      All in all though, Joonas, I appreciate your contributions to this discussion, which I think are made in a good spirit.

  36. Brave

    Joonas,
    “Now what about u are u an unwanted person for yours?”

    – I do not understand this sentence. Can you rephrase it? Do you mean, how would I feel in the similar kind of situation? Well, I have been in the situation when I had a doctor’s appointment, they had double booking for two people (who was already inside) and we agree for another appointment. Then I left and no police was needed…. I know, shocking.

    Sure u dont understand and u wont understand this, this is a very difficult question for u Joonas.
    I dont mean how u feel in similar situation like ur appointment time with doctor when u had a fever..one degree fever so sad.
    Oh u still have a pain about that… pity pity what a deep pain that they told u sorry we done wrong but we can give u a new appointment time.
    I am so sorry for what happened to u Joonas in that day, u need million hugs but sure not from me from people who are thinking like yours am strong one, i dont shake with such a cute stories.
    And my question means…
    Hmmmm
    Are u an unwanted person for yours? for yourself?
    Aagain think … becareful dont think much dont lose ur thin hair.
    ….
    yes they were and are racists… i can feel this u were not there in me and my blood, soul so u cant feel it, and u cant feel anything because u u have nothing about morals in ur whole life experiences.
    ………….

    – Thank you for being “concerned” about my, eh, mental health and having lack of love in my life, but I have enough both of them and people around me. You don’t need to worry about it.

    Awwww
    Joonas u wordship yourself? Who told that am worry for u?
    U stand up infront of yours?
    Am no worry for u i just helped a sad person.
    If u had love in yours for yourself then u could not able to satnd against a human that is me… because in that case u could see my pain…. so still u need to go and stand infront of ur mirror and tell yourself…I love u…
    U need to practice this more and more.
    ……………….

    And dont hope anything for me… I dont need ur kind word…. i improve my life day by day in here… am a very hardworker person thats why u and ur system cant see me around, u dont like successful foreigners.
    When u open ur eyes in this world u have everything u want… and most important u never miss ur family u always have ur family close to u… everything is reday for u for %98… thats why its hard for u to understand what even am talking about.
    u just repeat repeat ur harsh opinions… ( actually u have no opinion u have only hate )
    …………….
    yes yes Brown bread and Makkarakeitto and yet brown bread is not originaly from Finalnd…

  37. Brave

    – I’m not so sure about it. At least she has not showed any regret about her own actions so far.

    Regret?
    U should dream about Joonas.
    it is a good business u have on MT …u try to washing my brain that i done crime and wrong and it is me who should be regret?
    My spirit laughs at your small spirit.
    Even a bird can laugh at u.
    They rape my soul and i should be regret?
    U done know and u cant imagine what am speaking about.
    U just sit infront of ur screen and try to support Racists.
    YES I tell THIS with LOUD voive
    RACISTS and u r supporting them…. this is A fact u like it or not thats not my responsibility and problem, solve ur problem if u can.
    Bravo to me i was standing for me even it was only a silent act on a cursed chair because am apeaceful person i dont use action but mind.

  38. Brave

    then dont be suprised they ask you to leave.
    Jossie,
    And when u insult my family u should not wait for my respect… i gave u lesson learn it and move on.
    U cruely attack my family and insult my mama who just left 28.5.2013 and u want me be silent infront of u?
    And so u Jossie
    U dont be surprise too and am not surprised with racists and their supporter that one is u.
    U r a very fanatical baby, u wont find moral never ever.

  39. Brave

    Yes, this was a possibility I was thinking. You seem to take anyone disagreeing with you as an insult. If this is what happent in the welfare office and if you responded like you responded to me earlier with colorful insults like “cruel animal”, “sick and dirty mouse”, then dont be suprised they ask you to leave.

    Jossie and again ur dirty mind judging me easily yes???
    Now u have chance that u use if and if in this comment otherwise i could give u again my sharp answer.
    so
    Jossie
    If u are not sure ( because u use if and if )then why u make fun at yours again and again?

  40. Brave

    Jossie,
    Oh boy give up I WILL STAY HERE
    Am a winner dont u know that?
    Even they killed my soul every single day and moment from that time they attacked me until court and after that,…
    Jossie
    I been winner already when i went to my appointment and when i chose to be silent on a chair
    It was a wind of power in me… they could not see this thats why they sick spirits called to police and thats why ur sick police attacked me and thats why sick court stand against my rights.
    Thats why u dont like me… because u afraid of my power… peace has power… u dont use to see a power of Peace u just remember war and fight … u try to punish me for a sin that i never done and i never been in that time in this world.
    I ama foreigner and tahts a big good reason for u.
    polices and social workers abused me
    Police abused me so clearly
    because i been completely polite and respected them… they could not see this, they could not believe it that i telling them
    i have respect for u and law
    If i was telling them hey u cant touch me, hey dont come close to me…
    or if i was telling them like a Finnish person talk to them… they never ever could attack me like two big monster.
    They never ever can attack a Finn if a Finn is sitting on a chair and telling them i have respect for u.
    My arams been on my chest… means i have nothing againt u, again means respect, again am telling them with my voice i ahve respect for u and law…
    BUT BIT BUT
    NOW i tell
    Ur law is racist
    polices and social workers were racist
    and tahts a sure for me
    My wounds are my witness
    even if i want tell opposite this i cant… because my wounds are not silent in me.
    And how
    in this big building
    people chose to stay in their room?
    Its not civil at all, its wild wild wild
    Its not a social weelfare service but a zoo
    Zoo with wild animals

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