Multiculturalism is dead – long live multiculturalism

by , under All categories, Mark

Warning: this article quotes racist profanity by way of illustration. Apologies in advance if you find it offensive.

The King is dead – long live the King! So runs the traditional proclamation when the monarch dies, only to be reborn magically through the next heir. The irony of listening to politicians line up to proclaim that ‘multiculturalism is dead’ is that even after a million such proclamations, Europe moves forward in the very next moment being just as much multicultural and multiethnic as it was before. Not one whit has changed. Except that somebody has clearly been trying to ascend to the throne….

The thing that disappoints me most about politicians that say things like ‘there isn’t a racism problem in Finland’, or ‘multiculturalism is dead’ is that as leaders, they give permission to other people to say and believe the same, even when it clearly isn’t true.

When they say racism isn’t a problem, what they mean is that it isn’t perceived as a big enough problem among the electorate for them to start getting caught up in the emotive and moral minefield that is trying to explain and tackle racism.

When they say that ‘multiculturalism is dead’, what they mean is that populist arguments that immigration is bad have started to convince enough of the electorate that if they were to come out and argue against racism, it is going to lose them votes, crucially amongst their own support.

It has in recent decades become the case that if you start to seriously lose ground on an ideological point in politics, you simply abandon the stance temporarily or permanently or suffer the risk of never getting into power – i.e. leave the job of trying to win the argument to idealists and sociologists. Politicians are pragmatic, at the best of times.

The problem is though that it’s not just political ground they give up, it’s moral ground. The chances are that the silent suffering of immigrants subject to daily, weekly or monthly racist abuse goes on, and even increases. Meanwhile, racists take their propaganda to new levels, with a blatant denial of ALL racism, because if you deny that something is racist, then you cannot be accused of racism when you do it.

To give you some idea of how far this rationale can be stretched, I want to share a discussion I had recently with someone who said one footballer calling another footballer a black c*nt was not racist, because, ‘well, he’s black isn’t he?’ They think that because they find a ‘fact’ to hide behind, they are stating something that is merely true, and so how can it possibly be racist? This same kind of vacuous argument and hiding behind ‘facts’ is put forth again and again by those defending their prejudices on Migrant Tales.

For example, if it’s something that insults and denigrates an entire immigrant group, it’s not racism if they can claim it is as fact, regardless of how shaky or questionable that fact is, or whether it’s absolutely clear that the trait in question can NEVER be a group trait, but only an individual trait. At times, they deny there is even a racial element even when one is blatantly obvious (ergo: “black – but he is black, it’s a fact, it’s not being ‘racial’ to recognise it as a fact,” and said with no hint of intellectual uncertainty). By hiding behind these ‘facts’ and only accepting the validity of race when it suits to denigrate ethnic groups, they can tell us, with a completely straight face – “there is no racism in Finland!”

Of course, there are many nuances to the denial of racism, and these are just a few.

There is one word that springs to my mind when it comes to some politicians and their attitudes to racism – spineless! It’s easy to play the denial game if you know that half the population is also playing it, and most of the other half cannot be bothered to argue about it, even if they know it for what it is. That’s my cynical streak talking.

At the end of the day, the argument about what multiculturalism actually is will rumble on. I would urge you not to buy into the idea that politicians are the best custodians of our culture, simply because they are too concerned with whether it will have any vote value. Alternatively, I urge you to recognise that multicultural is the acceptance that there are many different ways to do culture in legitimate and peaceful ways. In protecting the freedom of those that are different to us, we are protecting our own freedom to be different.

My grateful thanks to Enrique and Migrant Tales for the opportunity to contribute on a regular basis.

Have a nice weekend.

Mark

  1. Berger

    Yes, surely racism here, racism there, racism everywhere. I would too wish to find it – no matter where – especially if my income would depend of that awfull condition of human soul. But since I’m not dependent economically on existence of racims, and nor am I fixated to it, it is so hard to see racism anywhere. But surely yes, it must be everywhere.

    History is path-dependent. Different formal (organisations, law etc.) and informal institutions (values, norms, codes, etc.) evolve in time in close interaction with each other. Sometimes institutios (or rules of the game) evolve by accident. Together formal and informal institutions determine our sets of choices and destiny.

    Institutions change gradually and changes in institutions are hard to prevent, once they have taken place (path). Techological change has often been the source of intitutional change. Nowadays institutions presumably change also trough immigrance, when those people who have actually not been invited, enter a country and bring their own culture, value-sets and rules to the table.

    It is evident that in such highly multucultural societies there are higher transaction costs – which in turn bring inefficiency to economy, under-development to part of society and poverty. In other words multicultural societies have inefficient institutions as a whole. That is the main reason to avoid multicultural society – a very good reason.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Berger and welcome to Migrant Tales. So, if you can’t find racism, then why are you telling us that such a social ill does not exist?

      Could you please define multiculturalism for me? I think it is important before I answer some of the questions on your thread.

  2. george wells

    Anti-racists when challenged to show real instances of racism are hard pressed. There really are few considering how much effort is expended in preaching anti-racism. Most anti-racists don’t even know the meaning of the word RACIST,but that does not stop them from assaulting others with the word.

    I have just concluded that there is really so little racism, but so much anti-racism. Anti-racism is a joke and yet useful in defending a multi-racial empire. Anti-racism is a sort of glue that holds together very different groups that would separate if allowed.

    Look at the old Soviet empire, when central power fell a part, the parts went their own separate ways. When people no longer feel the stinging whip of RACIST accusations, a lot of things will fall a part. Prepare yourself.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi george wells, and welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales. Then, according to you, we have nothing to worry about: no racism and anti-racists don’t know what racism is.

      george, using the former Soviet Union argument is a bit of an old far-right argument, no?

      How would you define racism?

  3. JoeBoy

    If multiculturalism is so good…

    Why is it demanded of all White countries and only White countries?

    Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

    The Netherlands and Belgium are more crowded than Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them.

    Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to “assimilate,” i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites.

    What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?

    How long would it take anyone to realize I’m not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?

    And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn’t object to this?

    But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.

    They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white.

    Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi JoeBoy and welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales.

      Please define multiculturalism? I will thereafter answer your questions.

  4. Mark

    Berger

    But since I’m not dependent economically on existence of racims, and nor am I fixated to it, it is so hard to see racism anywhere. But surely yes, it must be everywhere.

    I am in no way whatsoever economically dependent on racism existing, just for the record.

    If this is your way of asking ‘is there racism in Finland’, then you are going a funny way about doing it.

    You know, my personal personal experience of racism here varies from comments on the street, to personal reports (from Finns too) about attacks and verbal assaults on immigrants, to hearing the views of many Finns on the issue, from the young to the old. I can tell you catagorically that racism exists in Finland and that it’s fairly widespread, though it varies in degree and severity.

    As just one example, when I first came to Finland, I had to make a trip to the labour office, though I had already had a job offer by then. She asked me where I was from and when I said the UK, she started to talk about immigrants rom outside the EU and how they shouldn’t be coming to Finland. I did not bring the subject up and was very surprised, as much by the fact that she assumed that I would have no problem with her views. I have to say, I was somewhat surprised. That was my introduction to Finland. This was also after my Finnish partner had already made several apologies for the outright racist views of her mother, which she used openly express when I was visiting Finland, ranging from the Turks living down the hall, to ‘those’ Negros coming to Finland, all done with a mixture of despair and disdain. She had nothing good to say about immigrants. Again, the idea that maybe that would make me feel uncomfortable, as a foreigner, never seemed to enter her head. So, these were among my very first experiences of Finland. But that is just personal experience. Later I was to be accosted in the streets quite randomly, with ‘satana, perkkele, vittu ulkomaalaiset etc.’ And though I looked foreign with dark hair and brown eyes, I didnt’ even think for a second that I would stand out. I remember the feeling of standing out in Peckham High Street as one of the few whites in the area, but that never felt so threatening as what I have experienced in Finland.

    Anyhow, there is much more to racism than one person’s experience. But, the idea that you would tell me that racism doesn’t exist or that there isn’t insititutional racism in Finland, I would say, wake up and smell the coffee.

    It is evident that in such highly multucultural societies there are higher transaction costs – which in turn bring inefficiency to economy, under-development to part of society and poverty.

    Which is why multicultural and multiethnic countries like Germany, the USA, the UK, Canada and Australia have such terrible economies (GDP), isn’t it?

    USA = 1st
    UK = 6th
    Canada = 10th
    Australia = 13th

    So, you are going to tell me that it’s just the white folks that have contributed to their economies?

    In other words multicultural societies have inefficient institutions as a whole.

    Yes, because the institutions in Australia, Germany, the UK, Canada and the USA are among the worst in the world, aren’t they!

    Your talking out of your racist arse, Berger.

  5. Mark

    George Wells

    There really are few considering how much effort is expended in preaching anti-racism.

    I take it by ‘preaching anti-racism’, you mean white people standing up and telling other white people like yourself that ‘racism is bad’?

    I have just concluded that there is really so little racism, but so much anti-racism. Anti-racism is a joke and yet useful in defending a multi-racial empire. Anti-racism is a sort of glue that holds together very different groups that would separate if allowed.

    Actually, I would say the complete opposite. I have heard many THOUSANDS of unsolicited racist comments in the course of my life, long before I even cared to make any kind of replyn. Many people are very eager to tell you how Britain or Finland is ‘going to the dogs’ because of immigration or how blacks are ‘just not civilised’ like we are etc. On the other hand, I cannot remember a single instance where someone has made an effort to condemn racism in everyday conversations. While I have been closely involved with refugees in London, and discrimination was clealry an issue, it is only since coming to Finland that I have felt compelled to even comment on the situation.

    When people no longer feel the stinging whip of RACIST accusations, a lot of things will fall a part.

    You know, you’ve come here, taken the opportunity to attack anti-racists, without stating what it is about ‘anti-racism’ you actually don’t like, and then imply that things would fall apart if people were allowed to do what they want without the fear of being called a racist. So, what is it that you would like to do that nowadays would have you being ‘whipped’ with accusations of racism? What is it that you want George? Care to be brave and share it?

  6. Mark

    JoeBoy

    If multiculturalism is so good…

    Why is it demanded of all White countries and only White countries?

    There are no ‘White countries’, JoeBoy. There are countries where whites are the majority, but that’s about as far as it goes. But hey, I can see where you are coming from….(fecking racist!).

    Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

    JoeBoy, a history lesson for you. Whites were the first to industrialise. They used that new technology to conquer and subjugate what had up to that point been mainly agricultural or nomadic societies throughout the world. Empires were nothing new, but industrialisation brought a power to dominate that the world had never seen before. And it was mostly in the hands of white Europeans. Now having carved up the majority of the planet and squabbled about the various spoils of conquest, European countries nevertheless still battled among themselves for dominance. Once that insanity settled itself, the world was now a ‘nuclear’ world. That changed the world forever and made war something altogether different. That was followed by cold war, guerilla war, and an ever devolving power as previously conquered nations acquired their own political and sovereign autonomy. The world pulls away from the days of Empire, in the strict geographical sense. Instead, we have a growing economic market. However, the power and wealth still remain largely in the hands of those countries that managed to exploit industrialisation quickest. So, in answer to your question, why do ‘white’ countries experience economic migration from non-white countries? Because the balance of economic power lay with those ‘white’ countries, even long after the days of Empire were over.

    Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

    I think you should rename yourself JoeLittleBoy, because this kind of absolutist thinking is characteristic of young children.

    But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.

    That’s probably because liberals and conservatives (i.e. the vast majority of people) understand that ‘race’ is an artificial category, and that ‘skin tone’ has very very little relevance to innate abilities, and absolutely no relevance to universal human rights. Seems to me that you got left behind, son, somewhere in the Dark Ages.

  7. Mark

    JoeBoy

    If multiculturalism is so good…

    Why is it demanded of all White countries and only White countries?

    There are no ‘White countries’, JoeBoy. There are countries where whites are the majority, but that’s about as far as it goes. But hey, I can see where you are coming from….(fecking racist!).

    Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

    JoeBoy, a history lesson for you. Whites were the first to industrialise. They used that new technology to conquer and subjugate what had up to that point been mainly agricultural or nomadic societies throughout the world. Empires were nothing new, but industrialisation brought a power to dominate that the world had never seen before. And it was mostly in the hands of white Europeans. Now having carved up the majority of the planet and squabbled about the various spoils of conquest, European countries nevertheless still battled among themselves for dominance. Once that insanity settled itself, the world was now a ‘nuclear’ world. That changed the world forever and made war something altogether different. That was followed by cold war, guerilla war, and an ever devolving power as previously conquered nations acquired their own political and sovereign autonomy. The world pulls away from the days of Empire, in the strict geographical sense. Instead, we have a growing economic market. However, the power and wealth still remain largely in the hands of those countries that managed to exploit industrialisation quickest. So, in answer to your question, why do ‘white’ countries experience economic migration from non-white countries? Because the balance of economic power lay with those ‘white’ countries, even long after the days of Empire were over.

    Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

    I think you should rename yourself JoeLittleBoy, because this kind of absolutist thinking is characteristic of young children.

    But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.

    That’s probably because liberals and conservatives (i.e. the vast majority of people) understand that ‘race’ is an artificial category, and that ‘skin tone’ has very very little relevance to innate abilities, and absolutely no relevance to universal human rights. Seems to me that you got left behind, son, somewhere in the Dark Ages.

  8. Mark

    twitch (Seppo)

    When Finns stop emigrating to other parts of the world, then you can ask that Finland does not accept any immigrants. How about that?

    Let Finland be a modern, tolerant society for all its citizens. 😉

  9. Peter of Finland

    Seppo: “Let Finland be as a snow white”

    Snow White is a fictional character in the Brothers Grimm’s collected volume of fairy tales first published in German as Grimms Märchen in 1812.

    Do you mean that you want every Finnish woman to live in the forest in a little house with seven dwarves? 😆

    Obviously your grasp of reality is non-existent.

    Quit bothering those who strive to better their society and go back to Homma Forum. We do not want your racist, bigoted garbage here!

  10. robroysimmons

    Anti-racism is nothing but a codeword for anti-White. No one asks the Japanese or Chinese to be anti-racist, nobody asks Africans to be anti-racist. No one tells the Africans or Asians to open their borders to mass immigration from around the globe and then criminalizes dissent from such a police, or writes paragraphs of Freudian bunk belittling them as “racist.” Nope, anti-racists are nothing but anti-White and they want nothing more than to destroy Whites and their countries. But they say “White” is nothing but a social construct therefore we are destroying nothing, but isn’t that what they said about judaism which is nothing but old words recited by a few people and therefor nothing but a social construct, and that is why we have the 1948 Convention on Genocide.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi robroysimmons, welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales. Do you think that racism is only against whites? Racism is a problem that all societies have. Why? Because it is a good way of excluding others from society’s resources, political and economic. So, sorry, I don’t buy your argument that the Japanese or Chinese are not anti-racist. You will find a lot of racism in those countries as well. Check out what the Japanese did to the Chinese in World War 2.

  11. Berger

    Migrant tales

    I’m not trying to define multiculturalism in theoretical grounds. But I see multiculturalism as an ideology and thus a political agenda that promotes formal institutions and organizations to adopt multiple cultures to their businesses. A precondition for that is that in becomes widely accepted, that different cultures are equally good and thus should be respected by all member of society – a certain kind of link to human rights: because humans are equally “good” and deserve fair treatment, also their cultures are equally “good”. Nothing could be more misleading.

    I’m mostly interested in informal institutions (or constraints) as a factor of economic development. I see informal institutions as very central in all cultures. In every society informal institutions affect economy and the whole realm of social life – that is the case in countries that are more multicultural as well as in countries where multicultural aspect is very low.

    Informal institutions (as well as formal institutions/rules) always contain incentives (and constraints) that foster certain kind of activity. All informal institutions are not efficient in terms of transactions costs. Formal institutions may be relatively well developed, but informal institutions require action that cannot be concluded only by studying constitution or law books. Some value-sets, norms, codes, conducts etc. are inefficient and constrain economic development.

    In Finland transaction costs are relatively low mainly because of homogeneity of informal institutions. In Russia and especially in China production costs may be very low but transaction costs are much higher. Reasons for that are e.g. bureaucratic culture, fraud as a name of the game at every level of administration and concentration of power behind the black curtains.

    If we now get relatively different informal institutions to Finland through immigration policy, (especially from 3rd world countries), I suspect that in 25 years Finland becomes multicultural society where there will be many rules of the game among different groups of citizens of Finland – and higher transaction costs. Inefficient informal institutions and culture that are imported from the 3rd world countries alter the (informal) rules of the game. They may also change the formal institutions in longer term.

    Since all informal institutions are not equally good in terms of economic development, I conclude that cultures are neither equally good in that sense. I would almost say that some cultures are determined to under-development because of inefficient informal institutions. Multiculturalism paves the way to under-development, or at least makes economic activity and change more costly.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Berger, as you know, the term multiculturalism is a widely misused and misunderstood concept. Are you, as I suspected, speaking about cultural diversity and how “multiculturalism” permits non-EU citizens from entering Finland and Europe? That is a pretty common definition or view of what multiculturalism is for anti-immigration groups. Moreover, Finland is not officially a multicultural country in the same spirit as Canada, where multiculturalism as a social policy appeared in the 1970s.

      We live in a wonderful country with good social values like social equality (tasa-arvo). I would see a noble value as the latter, which helped mend much of the wounds and scars left by the first quarter of a century of our history, as a key factor in building a well-functioning society. What is a danger to our society? It isn’t immigrants or different types of ethnic groups but excluding them. Those very anti-immigration groups that claim to defend us from Islam and non-EU immigrants and refugees are paradoxically the threat. You cannot maintain or convince the population that social equality is one of our biggest aims if, on the other hand, you exclude and discriminate other populations from society.

      Another important factor in having a well-functioning society is flexibility and acceptance. We make room for other members in our understanding through key terms like mutual acceptance and respect.

      Thus, the aim when answering the challenges of our ever-cultural diverse society is the way we have built our society after WW2. The models and answers are there right under our noses.

  12. Berger

    Mark

    Thank you so much for the card you gave me at the end of your post. Many thanks also for your effort for valuable and constructive “argumentation.

    Your statistics is by the way incorrect.

  13. JoeBoy

    Migrant Tales
    “Do you think that racism is only against whites?”

    You misunderstand the point of mantra. I assume English is not your first language?

    Here’s a question to help aid your understanding:

    As an anti-White, can you name an Asian country that you believe must bring in millions of non-Asians and assimilate with them until Asians become extinct?

    Which non-White populations do you INSIST must be ‘mixed’ and ‘blended’ out of existence in their own countries, or is it ONLY White people you are against?

    Anti-racist is a code word for anti-White.

  14. JoeBoy

    “Please define multiculturalism? I will thereafter answer your questions.”

    You run a blog called Migrant Tales and you have no clue what multiculturalism is?

  15. Mark

    Berger

    I’m not trying to define multiculturalism in theoretical grounds. But I see multiculturalism as an ideology and thus a political agenda that promotes formal institutions and organizations to adopt multiple cultures to their businesses.

    Got that straight off Wikipedia did you? 🙂

    First of all, the ideological component of multiculturalism is only weakly a political concept. The political dimension was introduced as part of the rights framework, as you seem only dimly aware – “a certain kind of link to human rights”. That link was that discrimination against immigrants was considered a violation of human rights. Secondly, politicians were pressured to take a lead, as much from the human rights perspective, and to actually promote the benefits of immigration and also tolerance and respect for different cultures. The alternative was almost a violation of people’s right to decide and express their identity. While ‘identity’ as such was not considered very important pre-1960s, the concept of democratic freedom has rapidly matured in the mid to late 20th Century to further define the relationship of the individual to the state and the state’s obligations to the individual.

    A precondition for that is that in becomes widely accepted, that different cultures are equally good and thus should be respected by all member of society – a certain kind of link to human rights:

    In my mind, you have put a slant on this. To say all cultures are equally good sounds like a straw man. Multiculturalism does not seek to define what is good or bad about culture, is a matter for cultural criticism, conscience and public debate, which is perfectly valid. Rather, multiculturalism calls for respect. In other words, a recognition of the right and validity of someone to claim as part of their identity a particular ethnicity, cultural and historical heritage, language and customs.

    Many Western countries have gone through periods of being ruled by political despots or where the majority have subscribed to questionable political doctrines. But this does not invalidate their nationality, their ethnicity or their right to culture. In that sense, respect is something that has to transcend the good or bad of a culture that a person subscribes to or advocates.

    However, it’s important to state that much of the ‘ideology’ of early multiculturalism was pragmatic rather than political ideology, in seeking to create the right circumstances for immigrants to obtain education and opportunities to be productive in society. Pointless a country seeking to bring in immigrants to boost the labour force, only for them to be stigmatized and under-utilized because of the prejudices of the native citizens.

    All informal institutions are not efficient in terms of transactions costs.

    So. A third sector organisation is interested in creating value in many different domains, in terms of service, in terms of well-being, in terms of know-how, and in terms of human relations. Economics is only one aspect. People will pay for a public good. And a tolerant and peaceful society without discrimination is absolutely a public good.

    I suspect that in 25 years Finland becomes multicultural society where there will be many rules of the game among different groups of citizens of Finland – and higher transaction costs. Inefficient informal institutions and culture that are imported from the 3rd world countries alter the (informal) rules of the game. They may also change the formal institutions in longer term.

    Rubbish. Finland is doing more than most to export know-how to the developing world and it does this because it’s very good at developing and consolidating it’s own ‘know-how’. In other words, there are enough people aware of the ‘rules of the game’ in Finland to not let that knowledge be somehow discarded via a 3rd world invasion.

    Multiculturalism will have an impact on the ‘rules of the game’ in the third sector of Finland. It will require a recognition and appreciation of people’s different origins and cultural heritage. However, this is only a very small extension of an already well-established view that ‘individuals are different and each must be considered according to their own needs’. That philosophy has developed as part of service development, and extending it to encompass elements of cultural heritage is not big stretch.

    Since all informal institutions are not equally good in terms of economic development, I conclude that cultures are neither equally good in that sense.

    Well, you certainly did wait a while to blow down that straw man!

    Multiculturalism paves the way to under-development, or at least makes economic activity and change more costly.

    Look back in 25 years mate, long after you’ve finished your studies and let’s see how much of that hogwosh you still believe. In particular, I’d be interested to see what you have made of the impact of ageing populations on your transaction-based paradigm. In other words, let’s see who is looking after YOUR parents in their old age!

  16. Mark

    JoeLittleBoy

    You run a blog called Migrant Tales and you have no clue what multiculturalism is?

    Ignorant little runt doesn’t have an answer so tries to deflect attention with a cheap jibe!

  17. JoeBoy

    “let’s see who is looking after YOUR parents in their old age!”

    You are justifying White Genocide, using the old elderly excuse?

    How come no one is flooding Japan with millions of people, that are not their race in an effort to blend the Japanese out of existence and using their elderly as an excuse?

    They are not White.

    “We are not using violence” does not justify White genocide.

    “Aging population” does not justify White genocide.

    “For the economy” does not justify White genocide.

    “Low birth rates”, does not justify White genocide.

    “We all bleed red!” does not justify White genocide.

    “We are all human!” does not justify White genocide.

    “Race is just a social construct!” does not justify White genocide.

    “We are all from Africa!” does not justify White genocide.

    And so on and so forth

    Anti-racist is a code word for anti-White.

    • Migrant Tales

      JoeBoy, do you think your rant promotes a workable solutions or models? Do you feel persecuted and like an endangered species? Or are you worried that other groups will tap into white privilege?

  18. JoeBoy

    “Ignorant little runt doesn’t have an answer so tries to deflect attention with a cheap jibe!”

    The Migrant Tales blog owner really doesn’t know what multiculturalism is?

  19. JoeBoy

    Hi guys,
    Can anyone answer this question for me? This is the SECOND TIME I’ve asked it.

    As an anti-White, can you name an Asian country that you believe must bring in millions of non-Asians and assimilate with them until Asians become extinct?

    Which non-White populations do you INSIST must be ‘mixed’ and ‘blended’ out of existence in their own countries, or is it ONLY White people you are against?

    • Migrant Tales

      –As an anti-White, can you name an Asian country that you believe must bring in millions of non-Asians and assimilate with them until Asians become extinct?

      Is there a need to bring immigrants? That is the question. Moreover, check the Middle East and countries like Qatar. See how many immigrants there are and if the Qatarans have become extinct. Ethnicity is a social construct and it doesn’t work in the way you are suggesting in modern countries. Cultures constantly change and so does our ethnicity. If you consider that we all came from Africa once, our ethnic makeup has changed and adapted to different climates.

  20. Mark

    JoeLittleBoy

    As an anti-White, can you name an Asian country that you believe must bring in millions of non-Asians and assimilate with them until Asians become extinct?

    Which non-White populations do you INSIST must be ‘mixed’ and ‘blended’ out of existence in their own countries, or is it ONLY White people you are against?

    You make it sound like an evil conspiracy. 🙂 The fairly tales that some people will believe.

    You used the idea of an extinct white race twice. You’re really worried about it, aren’t you? Poor thing. Let me tell you a simple fact, if people get darker, the only thing that will have changed is that they produce a bit more melanin in the skin, which gives higher protection to UV and less chance of skin cancer. Now if the thought of that terrifies you, don’t let it, because you ALREADY have melanin in your skin, but just perhaps not a such as some. In fact, the natural variation in skin reflectance on the planet ranges from 19-69, so chances are that your descendents will end up somewhere closer to the middle. You certainly don’t have to worry about losing the colour of your skin, so rest assured you’ll be buried in your lily white epidermis, though sadly it will shrivel and go brown within a short space of time after your dead. Sorry about that. I’d hate to terrify you with painful thoughts.

  21. JoeBoy

    Hi Mark,
    I am not sure which question you are answering. Perhaps you got a little confused?

    All that is required is you type a country name. You will score additional points if you give a reason why they should be blended out of existence.

    Here’s some excuses you can use against them, or you can create others.

    “Privilege”
    “Aging population”
    “For the economy”
    “Low birth rates”
    “We all bleed red!”
    “We are all human!”
    “Race is just a social construct!”
    “We are all from Africa!”

    • Migrant Tales

      JoeBoy, here is a question back to you: Define “white.” Is it anyone with “white” skin? Are Italians “white?” If you had to measure “whiteness” how would you measure it? Is it a physiological thing or a social construct that has no scientific basis? Does KKK membership make you more white? Does belonging to an anti-racist group make you less white?

  22. Mark

    JoeLittleBoy

    Anti-white: sounds like a detergent for bleach spills. 🙂

    Listen mate, you might be obsessed with the melanin levels in your skin, but I just cannot bring myself to the same level of ‘hissy fit’ that you can over changes that will take place regardless of what anyone tries to do on this planet. Fact is, we were all once hairy all over, and now we’re not. Do you think that we should have a cry about together?

    By the way, you asked about immigration in Asian countries. Well, taking India as an example, it has over 6 million citizens who were born outside of India.

    Now do you want to a break down on that based on their skin reflectance values? Their toe nail width? The hue of their snot? The curl in their hair? The lean of their mouth? The heaviness of their jowl? The fullness of their earlobe? The length of their index finger? The … oh, well, you get the picture. There are literally thousands of characteristics that are subject to just the same genetic variation as skin tone, and we pay absolutely no heed to them. Funny that some people just can’t avoid having a hernia about a colour. 🙂

  23. Mark

    JoeLittleBoy

    All that is required is you type a country name. You will score additional points if you give a reason why they should be blended out of existence.

    Well, I wonder how you would feel coming face to face with your great, great, great, great, great, great grandchildren? I suppose the wonder of that kind of encounter would be lost on someone like you. I wonder what they would make of you seeing that you have got so hung up over just one of the thousands of physical characteristics in humans that are subject to variations.

  24. justicedemon

    JoeLittleBoy

    You can ask your question until your fingers bleed, but nobody will give you an answer because (1) the question is not addressed to anyone here, and (2) it does not deserve to be dignified with any response other than this one.

    Now I have a corresponding question for you: As a would-be concentration camp commandant, what method do you advocate for murdering non-white infants?

    See answer above.

  25. justicedemon

    robroysimmons

    No one asks the Japanese or Chinese to be anti-racist,

    Not only asked, but also answered. Japan ratified CERD in December 1995. China ratified CERD in December 1981.

  26. justicedemon

    Berger

    I suspect that your analysis concerning transaction costs is essentially meaningless, and can therefore be given in support of any conclusion whatsoever.

    However, you can humour me by explaining how this analysis applies to modern multinational corporations, as it seems that you are predicting that they are doomed to be unsuccessful.

  27. JoeBoy

    Hi Migrant Tales,

    “Middle East and countries like Qatar”

    Are you calling workers on short term contracts, that are not allowed to vote, and are sent home at the end of their contracts, immigrants?

    Are these contract workers allowed to dress as they like in public, build churches, temples and drink alcohol in public, according to their various cultures?

    “JoeBoy, here is a question back to you: Define “white.” Is it anyone with “white” skin? Are Italians “white?””

    Why are you asking me to define White, when you have already defined White for me? A White country is one you Demand massive immigration and forced integration for. Correct?

    BTW for anyone reading, this is the THIRD TIME I have asked this question, not including when I was blocked yesterday and no anti-White here, has answered it correctly. I know it is a real brain buster, so lets wish them luck! I will give you a small hint. All you have to do is type the name of a country! Good luck! 🙂

    “As an anti-White, can you name an Asian country that you believe must bring in millions of non-Asians and assimilate with them until Asians become extinct?

    Which non-White populations do you INSIST must be ‘mixed’ and ‘blended’ out of existence in their own countries, or is it ONLY White people you are against?”

  28. JoeBoy

    “Define “white.

    Are you really saying you don’t know what is White? So how does affirmative action work?

    “Does KKK membership make you more white?”

    In your opinion I am a KKK member. You are just saying that because I am White. Anti-racist is a code word for anti-White.

    “Does belonging to an anti-racist group make you less white?”

    Anti-racist is a code word for anti-White.

  29. JoeBoy

    “JoeBoy, do you think your rant promotes a workable solutions or models?”

    Your idea of “workable solutions or models” is every White country and ONLY White countries, must have non-White immigration until White people disappear.

    Correct?

    Anti-racist is a code word for anti-White.

  30. Roderick

    In the 1960’s all and only white countries opened their borders to massive non-white immigration. Then governments and media demanded we “mix together.” Now those same governments and medias are calculating that by the year 2040, there won’t be a single white majority nation left on the planet, and that this is a “good thing.” If this was done to all and only black countries, people would quickly recognize it for the genocide it is. “Anti-racism” is a codeword for anti-white.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Roderick, welcome to our blog.

      I never knew there were “all and only white” countries. Which ones are you talking about? South Africa and Rhodesia during the apartheid days?

      If you think that you only need a pocket calculator and a birth rate formula to predict the future, why don’t you sell your idea to universities or patent your “discovery.” You would become a rich person.

  31. BlandaUpp

    WOW! It’s like someone went to Stormfront and brought back their sharpest minds a.k.a., the daftest, bluntest knives in the regular draw to come and regurgitate the Jussi Halla-aho/Breivik plagiarized manifesto.

    OH NO! The “white race” is dying. OMG! Save the “white race”.

    If you’re so concerned about the “white race” dying out, go out there and have 10 babies and actually take care of them.

    Maybe also do something about our national murder rate that’s the highest in Western Europe where “white” cowards kill their families and themselves instead of dealing with being a failure at life.

    How many “white people” did Hitler kill again?

    The definition of “white person” also differs according to geographical and historical context. The goalposts have been changing every few years.

    The English enslaved the Irish because they didn’t consider them “white’.

    Non Swedish speaking Finns were not considered “white”/Aryan by Hitler, we were considered Mongols.

    People in the US tried to deport socialist Finns under the “Asian Exclusion Act”.

    Countless groups like Italians, Jews and Gypsies from all over Europe moved to the USA and became “white” over a period of time.

    The current U.S. Census definition includes white “people having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East or North Africa.”

    By JoeBoy’s logic, being pro-Arab and pro-Persian is a code word for pro-White.

  32. Mark

    JoeLittleBoy

    Anti-racist is a code word for anti-White.

    Last time I checked, whites were doing just fine in the world as a group.

    Why are you asking me to define White, when you have already defined White for me?

    Actually, the question is totally valid. Human skin pigmentation goes from a scale of 19 to 69 on the light reflectiveness scale, with humans on all points in the scale. So where exactly do you decide on when someone is ‘white’? Also, melanin is subject to sunlight exposure and climate, so it can vary quite significantly even in a few generations.

    is every White country and ONLY White countries, must have non-White immigration until White people disappear.

    Joe – there are no ‘white’ countries. There are countries in which whites live. That’s it. No white countries. You are banging on about something that is totally a myth.

    But, for the sake of some historical perspective, white immigrants completely took over the countries of the hundreds and thousands of native ‘dark’ tribes of South, Central and Northern America, Australia and New Zealand in the not so distant past.

    Second, if you object to immigration of people only on the basis of the colour of their skin, you are really nuts. I mean, why not complain about ‘hairy’ people, or ‘short people’. It’s about as arbitrary as skin colour. I’m glad to say that most ‘white’ people who you seem to think you are defending find your views and your hatred of colour as despicable. You are a social outcast to the vast majority of ‘white’ society, Joe. Thank God for that! Amen, brother!

    Are these contract workers allowed to dress as they like in public, build churches, temples and drink alcohol in public, according to their various cultures?

    So, you are saying that Western countries should become countries in the Middle East? I don’t get this – one minute you are saying you don’t like people from these countries coming here, next minute you are saying that these countries are doing things the right way! Did the word ‘contradiction’ ever make it into your limited vocabulary?

    Which non-White populations do you INSIST must be ‘mixed’ and ‘blended’ out of existence in their own countries, or is it ONLY White people you are against?”

    You had nothing to say about the 6 million people living in India who were not born there. Didn’t think so.

    By the way, if someone didn’t explain it to you already, in a free democracy no-one is legally forced to ‘mix’ and ‘blend’ their wonderful genes with anyone else. If there is blending, it’s done through consent. Or do you object to other people making free choices like this?

  33. D4R

    Joeboy: As an anti-White, can you name an Asian country that you believe must bring in millions of non-Asians and assimilate with them until Asians become extinct?

    Joeboy, before you ask this question, first of ask yourself why europians had to invade every corner in the world and destroy and colonise, including africa. There is no country in the world invaded by europians. Right now they’re trying to invade Iran. So before you go to rumble, answer these questions, of why your forefathers had to invade other peoples lands, rob, rape and kill then profit of it.

  34. D4R

    Joey : Why are you asking me to define White, when you have already defined White for me? A White country is one you Demand massive immigration and forced integration for. Correct?

    But caucasians are all over the world, how come they’re priveleged to live everycorner in the world cinluding Africa, but not viceversa? Am asking you a question, who forced white europian caucasians move to different part of the worlds?

  35. D4R

    Joey: BTW for anyone reading, this is the THIRD TIME I have asked this question, not including when I was blocked yesterday and no anti-White here, has answered it correctly. I know it is a real brain buster, so lets wish them luck! I will give you a small hint. All you have to do is type the name of a country! Good luck!

    Joey, How about you type the name of a country, wich never has been invaded by caucasians. Name one, and good luck doing that! 🙂

  36. D4R

    Roderick : If this was done to all and only black countries, people would quickly recognize it for the genocide it is. “Anti-racism” is a codeword for anti-white.

    But it’s already done to african countries, when europians invaded without permission and colonised. Read history textbook, i think your highly ignorant.

  37. Berger

    Justicedeamon

    “I suspect that your analysis concerning transaction costs is essentially meaningless, and can therefore be given in support of any conclusion whatsoever.

    However, you can humour me by explaining how this analysis applies to modern multinational corporations, as it seems that you are predicting that they are doomed to be unsuccessful.”

    Humour you? Now, that is a very humorous comment. You know why? I’ll tell you why by asking only one question. Now, concentrate, ready….

    Here it comes:

    – Have you ever heard from corporation level mission, vision and values?

    I rest my case. Thanks for amusement your comment brought me.

  38. Berger

    Hi Migrant Tales

    Thanks for your reply. I agree with you totally that excluding immigrants from society’s activities impose a very great risk for stability. But quite frankly, I don’t see anybody even wanting that.

    I also agree with you what comes those (loose term) “anti-immigration groups”. They impose a potential threat to safety – at least some individuals “among them”. Probably there are only handfull of that kind of lunatics, but sadly that is all what is needed to violent acts – as we have seen.

    But I also see a potential risk when large groups from very different cultural setting enter country. The bigger those groups are, more likely we have to face demands to alter our legislation to satisfy new needs. At least in long term. And that is exactly the point where we all have to ask ourselves what are our basic values and how those demands relate and affect them.

    I’m not imaging that Finland is the best place on Earth. Far from that! But still I see many things here that are worth safaguarding. For me it is impossible to see that protecting basic values (like social justice, equal opportunities, gender equality, rights of sexual minorities etc. but also individual responsibility) by saying no to opposite views, could be discrimination or excluding. The fact is that there are opposite views on values among immigrant groups.

    You know, sometimes you just have to say what is okay and what is not. Surely you don’t accept or respect everything. Neither do I. But where that line goes is the most important question.

  39. robroysimmons

    Well at least the “anti-racists” here agree on one thing, whites must disappear, some say whites don’t exist, some here say whites invaded and pillaged everyone so they must disappear. So basically two groups of anti-Whites agree on one thing and one thing only, the genocide of whites. BUGs is bringing the Mantra to the world, the program of genocide aimed at whites for the last few decades is recognized for what it is, so maybe you intellectuals can see that you need to drop this genocidal fury you have towards whites, it is evil.

  40. Mark

    Berger

    But I also see a potential risk when large groups from very different cultural setting enter country. The bigger those groups are, more likely we have to face demands to alter our legislation to satisfy new needs. At least in long term. And that is exactly the point where we all have to ask ourselves what are our basic values and how those demands relate and affect them.

    What do you mean by ‘risk’ Berger? There are constantly battles within society over its values – did you pay attention when Rässänen was stirring up homophobia and creating an exodus from the church among the youth? This is normal society. I cannot see people agreeing on everything anytime soon.

    But still I see many things here that are worth safaguarding. For me it is impossible to see that protecting basic values (like social justice, equal opportunities, gender equality, rights of sexual minorities etc. but also individual responsibility) by saying no to opposite views, could be discrimination or excluding.

    Berger, your position is one of cultural self-defence. You seem to see threat where there isn’t any. And I don’t get this ‘saying no to opposite values’. Surely that is exactly what we all have to be prepared to do as part of living in a free society? It is not our place to say ‘no’ to others just because their views are different. And what does this ‘no’ mean for you? What exactly are you saying ‘no’ to?

  41. Mark

    Robroysimmons

    Grow some bollocks and argue with your critics over what they actually believe, not what it’s convenient for you to think they believe.

    Well at least the “anti-racists” here agree on one thing, whites must disappear

    Show me any evidence that anyone has said this on this forum?

    some say whites don’t exist

    Some say ‘white countries’ don’t exist. But hey, go ahead and try and imitate the intelligence of a gadfly by completing failing to understand the meaning of written English.

    some here say whites invaded and pillaged everyone so they must disappear

    Do you get pleasure out of deliberately misrepresenting what people say to you, or is it just the plain simple truth that you cannot argue with what people are ACTUALLY writing, so you instead, you lie about what has been written so you can appear big and brainy by proving to the world how you were right?

    Someone who has to lie about what his opponents have said to him to try to win an argument is a pathetic individual and a coward.

  42. george wells

    Then, according to you, we have nothing to worry about: no racism and anti-racists don’t know what racism is.

    george, using the former Soviet Union argument is a bit of an old far-right argument, no?

    How would you define racism?
    ——————-

    Racism is what anti-racists say it is. Its just a term of assault against white people. Really, when YOU think of a RACIST, do you think of a black person?

    Its a tool of social control in support of the multi-racial empire. Who can say the USA is not a multi-racial empire. The European Union uses anti-racism as a glue to hold together that which would separate on its own if given opportunity.

    Look at the old soviet empire. When the central power collapsed, groups went back to their natural form. Ethnics separated. See Trotsky supported the foundation of the soviet empire by his racist name calling.

    Of course anti-racists want to use Trotsky’s tool but not the blame associated with the 60 million white christians who were genocided by that multi-racial empire.

    There is no racism. Maybe unpleasant people.

    Really, anti-racism is just a code word for anti-white.

  43. Mark

    JoeLittleBoy

    All that is required is you type a country name. You will score additional points if you give a reason why they should be blended out of existence.

    I already gave you India, 6 million inhabitants not born in the country.

    Here’s some excuses you can use against them, or you can create others.

    Well, this is funny. You start by saying that genocide is being committed against whites, which would be laughable were it not for the fact that actual genocide is among the absolute worst manifestations of human abuse. That human civilians are routinely lined up and executed (see reports coming out today from Baba Amr, Syria) by cold-blooded politically sanctioned mercenaries is horrific. It happens again and again in human history, bred by tribal and political hatreds much like the crap you are peddling. And how ironic that for those that stand up against discrimination, and stand up for human rights, including yours, would be accused of ‘genocide’. It’s really hard to know what to say to you JoeLittleBoy, the magnitude of your ignorance very easily makes it appear ridiculous and therefore harmless, but having seen enough of human nature and what drives human destructiveness, I cannot dismiss your ignorance so easily. It IS your kind of mentality that creates the conditions in which genocide takes place. That is the same as saying you have committed genocide. It is merely to say that at the point when you decide to shut your ears and scream “Anti-racist is a code word for anti-White. is tantamount to a call for war. Not a war to be fought because an evil dictator sought to conquer world, no. Because a little boy in man’s body decided that he didn’t like the colour of some people’s epidermis. Now if that isn’t totally insane, then I don’t know what is.

    “Privilege” = no idea what you are saying with this one.
    “Aging population” + “For the economy” + “Low birth rates” = plain economic fact, less workers, more old people and fewer children means economic regression.

    Economies, unfortunately in some ways, are set up like some corporations, they only work if they are growing. However, open borders are a feature of the modern world. Many many people choose to travel to work, mainly, but also to experience different cultures and environments. That is what people want – white or black. And if it’s possible, why not?

    “We all bleed red!” + “We are all human!” = simple fact. We belong to a single species. As a biologist, I see your obsession with ‘white’ as mental illness.

    “Race is just a social construct!” = see above.

    “We are all from Africa!” = First, we all have a single origin, meaning we are all relatives, meaning we all belong to the human family. Second, we all started out as ‘white’ with dark fur. When the fur went, we were light skinned and adapted to UV by becoming darker. As we emmigrated away from the tropics, skin became lighter to allow for better synthesis of vitamin D in conditions of less direct sunlight. Skin colour is adaptive to the environment. That’s it. There is absolutely no connection between skin colour and any other biological function in humans. Any suggestion that it is connected to behaviour is utterly false.

    So, JoeLittleBoy, will you skip the argumentation and just repeat your genocide mantra? Or will you actually behave like an intelligent member of society and engage in debate? Remember, this is forum for Finns and they are mostly well educated – I doubt you’ll win them over with slogans. 😀

  44. george wells

    Mark,

    The point is that racism is undefined. My experience with anti-racists that they never define the words they accuse others of being. Racism is an Orwellian term. Anti-racists get some ind of pleasure by seeing racists behind every tree or rock and then accusing. There is a sort of moral grandeur (feelings of) invovled.
    Anti-racism is a negative thing. Its way over blown. There are certainly unpleasant people in the world but to call the bad ones racist is not accurate and you are relying on your open.
    Also, I’ve never known a black, red. or yellow person being called a racist.

    Its so true, anti-racism is a code word for anti-white.
    By the way – How is this not genocide:
    White countries are being flooded by non-whites. We are told to be

    TOLERANT. We are forced to integrate. With assimilation we see the

    extinction of one race only, the white race.

    I believe the end result of calling people racists, really is being pro-white genocide or at least being insensitive to white survival.

    • Migrant Tales

      –The point is that racism is undefined.

      Where did you read that? Racism is a complex topic but it does not mean that it is undefined nor that “it exists because of anti-racists.”

      There are laws and you can get in trouble for discrimination/racism/bigotry etc. In Finland we have the Equality Act that explains pretty well the different types of discrimination.

      So, I don’t understand what your point is. Are you stating that racism is something that has been invented? I would send you back to the classroom if you answered in the affirmative.

  45. george wells

    Mark
    ” But since I’m not dependent economically on existence of racims, and nor am I fixated to it, it is so hard to see racism anywhere. But surely yes, it must be everywhere.

    I am in no way whatsoever economically dependent on racism existing, just for the record. ”

    ———————-

    If you are a multi-culturalist, you are supporting an empire system that has benefits. I doubt that you are not benefiting in some way by your support of this empire system.

    Its the white race that is having its wealth (a broad definition) transferred to non-whites. there are many ways to benefit from this, many predators and parasites are feeding off the host.

    Again, anti-racism is the glue of empire, its a code word for anti-white.

  46. george wells

    Mark, in all your responses I have but one question:

    How is this not genocide:
    White countries are being flooded by non-whites. We are told to be

    TOLERANT. We are forced to integrate. With assimilation we see the

    extinction of one race only, the white race.

    I believe your honest answer would simply be that you are anti-white and support white genocide. We could argue and argue, but that is going to be the bottom line.

    I’ve never met and anti-white or anti-racist admit this, but every thought they have and every value they profess leads to the extinction of the white race.

    Will you actually confess this? Come out of the closet.

  47. Mark

    George Wells

    So what happened then, did Migrant Tales get a mention somewhere on Stormfront?

    You were asked to define racism. You replied:

    Racism is what anti-racists say it is. Its just a term of assault against white people.

    Laws against discrimination protect both whites and blacks from discrimination. You are talking through your arse.

    Really, when YOU think of a RACIST, do you think of a black person?

    I don’t think of a colour. I think of a person abusing another person on the basis of skin colour.

    Its a tool of social control in support of the multi-racial empire.

    Have you suffered this paranoia for long?

    Who can say the USA is not a multi-racial empire. The European Union uses anti-racism as a glue to hold together that which would separate on its own if given opportunity.

    Gosh, would it suprise you to find out that the vast majority of citizens within the EU just want to get on, enjoy a good life, do a useful job and have a laugh. The vast majority are not like you, they don’t give a fuck about colour or ’empires’.

    Look at the old soviet empire. When the central power collapsed, groups went back to their natural form. Ethnics separated. See Trotsky supported the foundation of the soviet empire by his racist name calling.

    So, your an expert on Russia are you? приветствие товарищу!

    Of course anti-racists want to use Trotsky’s tool but not the blame associated with the 60 million white christians who were genocided by that multi-racial empire.

    So, the people who fight against discrimination in western countries are responsible for the genocide of Russian dictators. Wow….that’s some fucking stretch!

    There is no racism. Maybe unpleasant people.

    Yes, you are definitely unpleasant!

    Really, anti-racism is just a code word for anti-white.

    Back to the slogans, eh.

    Okay, “George Wells/JoeLittleBoy is a code word for tribal hater”

  48. Mark

    George Wells

    How is this not genocide:

    Come for fucks sake, people are getting systematically murdered in the world in horrific circumstances and you want to compare immigration policies of western countries with the same phenomenon? It’s a fucking insult to humanity.

    White countries are being flooded by non-whites. We are told to be

    TOLERANT. We are forced to integrate. With assimilation we see the

    extinction of one race only, the white race.

    This is nuts, ‘George’. What on earth do you mean by ‘integrate’ and WHO is forcing you? Does someone have a gun to your head? Nod twice for yes if they are in the room with you now!

  49. Mark

    George

    I believe your honest answer would simply be that you are anti-white and support white genocide. We could argue and argue, but that is going to be the bottom line.

    I’ve never met and anti-white or anti-racist admit this, but every thought they have and every value they profess leads to the extinction of the white race.

    Will you actually confess this? Come out of the closet

    You are not actually reading what we write, are you? :D.

    • george wells

      People love dissimulation, no?

      Anti-racists profess that they see no connection between cause and effect. Again –
      How is this not genocide:
      White countries are being flooded by non-whites. We are told to be

      TOLERANT. We are forced to integrate. With assimilation we see the

      extinction of one race only, the white race.

  50. george wells

    Mark,
    “Come for fucks sake, people are getting systematically murdered in the world in horrific circumstances and you want to compare immigration policies of western countries with the same phenomenon? It’s a fucking insult to humanity.”
    ————-

    Genocide is creating the disappearance of a group of people by any means. Level of brutality has nothing to do with it. You are also using moral outrage to distract from the issue of white genocide.

    —————————

    “This is nuts, ‘George’. What on earth do you mean by ‘integrate’ and WHO is forcing you? Does someone have a gun to your head? Nod twice for yes if they are in the room with you now!”

    ————–

    Never heard of integration? The 1960s movement of integration is well know. Really? Can whites have their own institutions that are overtly white? Not without a civil rights organization to sue them in court or administratively or media pressures.

    Force? Coercion is force. In a 1984 society be have limited “freedoms” which involve a lot of manipulation, propaganda and indoctrination to make people act against their best interests and against their actual beliefs. Instincts that nature developed in man over hundreds of thousands of years are suppressed by social forces and you say white people are free to choose? You are not honest.

    Also, what white ethnic group has chosen to become a minority in their own homeland. Social engineering is being forced upon them. Who voted for multi-racialism? Who voted for the massive immigration?

    You are being dishonest.

  51. Mark

    George

    Genocide is creating the disappearance of a group of people by any means. Level of brutality has nothing to do with it. You are also using moral outrage to distract from the issue of white genocide.

    No, I am morally outraged, because when two people decide to marry and have children, and they happen to be of different skin pigmentation, I don’t consider that be ‘genocide’ of the white race. Are you really that incredibly stupid?

    Never heard of integration?

    Look, if you want are response, you can cut out these knobhead comments. It’s a cheap trick to take someone’s request for elaboration and to take it literally to mean they have no idea themselves about the concept. Now if you want to play with cheap, go down the fucking youth club. If you want to debate on Migrant Tales, you will have to show a modicum of ability to process an argument.

    The 1960s movement of integration is well know. Really? Can whites have their own institutions that are overtly white? Not without a civil rights organization to sue them in court or administratively or media pressures.

    This is incoherent. Not only that, something tells me you are American. Why are you coming on a blog talking about immigration in Finland? You just want to attack any blog at all that happens to promote tolerance?

    Force? Coercion is force.

    Okay, you are fond of saying that commentators do not respond to your questions, here’s one for you that I have posted to several commentators in the past and NEVER got a response to. So, tell me a single example of where you personally have been forced to do something you didn’t want to do because of someone else’s ethnicity?

    In a 1984 society be have limited “freedoms” which involve a lot of manipulation, propaganda and indoctrination to make people act against their best interests and against their actual beliefs.

    Orwell objected to totalitarianism in the way of Communism. Are you saying that Finland is a totalitarian state?

    Instincts that nature developed in man over hundreds of thousands of years are suppressed by social forces and you say white people are free to choose? You are not honest.

    Okay. What instincts. Give me an example. What does this example have to do with ‘white’ choice? Why am I not honest?

    Also, what white ethnic group has chosen to become a minority in their own homeland. Social engineering is being forced upon them. Who voted for multi-racialism? Who voted for the massive immigration?

    Well, actually, if YOUR politicians are not advocating a policy of forced repatriation of all citizens who’s ancestry is not white to their countries of origin, then the people who voted for those politicians are the ones who voted for multiculturalism. You are welcome to campaign politically on that platform, but best of luck with trying to convince your fellow whites! 😀

    You are being dishonest.

    I see. I would say I’m being patient 😀

  52. george wells

    Mark,

    Stormfort? Stereotyping? Be honest – a black racist? No, people think of a white person when the term racist is used. Do a survey.

    You know a multi-racial society is constructed by force. Look at the soviet empire and its break-up. Anti-racism is the glue but I would settle for saying it is A glue. Its a force of coercion to enhance tolerance which works against the white portion of the US and Euro empires.

    Most people have been trained to be disloyal to themselves and their own kind. That’s part of the indoctrination system which you obviously support. Orwell might agree with me, but an anti-white like yourself never will.

    Did not the soviet empire divide along old ethnic lines? Sarcasm is proof of nothing but your dishonesty. Its easy to be on the side of the deconstruction of the west, phrased more accurately, white countries.

    he early soviet leadership were deconstructionists that thought the price to pay of 60,000,000 white christians was a price worth paying. How much are you willing to pay to “fight” so-called discrimination? A white genocide is a price you are willing to pay.

    ts a genocide of the white race. Just raw material to fund your utopia based upon your accusation of racism.

    Just define racism that represents what you think is a reality and let it be examined and approved by the bulk of humanity or just stop accusing others.

    You are proving that anti-racism is a code word for anti-white but not honest enough to admit you yourself are indeed anti-white and support white genocide.

  53. george wells

    Its a waste of my time to try to reason with you. Its useful though to get a small taste of what is inside the mind of an anti-white anti-racist. Its a disease that I can only go out and try to prevent from expanding.

  54. Mark

    Its a waste of my time to try to reason with you. Its useful though to get a small taste of what is inside the mind of an anti-white anti-racist. Its a disease that I can only go out and try to prevent from expanding.

    I take it your withdrawal from debate means that you do not have the tools to argue effectively. 😀

    Of course, you will chant your slogans elsewhere and hope to create some kind of superstitious response with the ‘genocide against the whites’ crap, but at the end of the day, the thing you object to is two people who love each other deciding to get married and start a family and who happen to be of different skin pigmentation. And, by your own analysis, one of these people will one day be your descendants. Fancy that eh….I hope you go to your grave (in old age of course) happy in that knowledge. 🙂 🙂

    • Migrant Tales

      Mark, we should count how many threads it takes before they throw in the towel and run back to another hate forum like Hommaforum and Scripta if they are in Finland.

      I wonder who has the record?

  55. civil64

    Migrant Tales

    You know what a White country is because you demand immigration and integration in all White countries and only White countries. You say Asia for Asians, Africa for Africans, White Countries for everybody. You are Anti-White. Everyone knows it.

  56. civil64

    Mark

    You are justifying Genocide. Please keep it up, more people turn against you Anti-Whites everyday. Every time you make a comment, more people see you for the evil lunatic that you are.

  57. Mark

    Geogie boy!

    You know a multi-racial society is constructed by force. Look at the soviet empire and its break-up.

    No, look at Finland. Show me where people are being forced to marry and breed with blacks? That is your thesis, now back it up?

    Most people have been trained to be disloyal to themselves and their own kind.

    There is only one answer to that – you are brainwashed. Only brainwashed people come out with crap arguments like that. Again, your thesis that whites will be obliterated in a genocide is prefaced entirely on the idea that people are forced to marry and breed with a member of the black race. Remember now, to prove your thesis, this wouldn’t just require ‘one’ example, it would require about 1.376 billion examples 😀 😀

    Sarcasm is proof of nothing but your dishonesty. Its easy to be on the side of the deconstruction of the west, phrased more accurately, white countries.

    he early soviet leadership were deconstructionists that thought the price to pay of 60,000,000 white christians was a price worth paying. How much are you willing to pay to “fight” so-called discrimination? A white genocide is a price you are willing to pay.

    ts a genocide of the white race. Just raw material to fund your utopia based upon your accusation of racism.

    Just define racism that represents what you think is a reality and let it be examined and approved by the bulk of humanity or just stop accusing others.

    This is incoherent rubbish that has absolutely NO relevance to anything I’ve written or any of the questions I’ve asked you.

    You are proving that anti-racism is a code word for anti-white but not honest enough to admit you yourself are indeed anti-white and support white genocide.

    And on with the slogans. I’m interested….what kind of human being sits on the other end of this ‘communication’, typing away at the keyboard, formulating sentences, and experiencing emotions and thoughts. However hard I try, I just cannot grasp the kind of human being you are. I would love to meet you. I mean, I just cannot imagine you saying these things to my face and even hoping for a second that you were making any kind of sense. In the internet, words can flow and arguments are constantly lost in discussions between people of different opinions. But in real life, I would be very interested to see how you could possibly make these arguments to me face to face. Would you have look away? Would you have to close your eyes and ears so that you do not for one second let my thoughts or thinking penetrate that mantra that you are repeating? At what point would you relax, and the real nature of your thoughts and fears emerge?

    Have you made a lot of online ‘friends’ by spouting this crap? Oh well, I’m returning to my film now. Sweet dreams George. 🙂

  58. civil64

    Migrant Tales

    So, you support communism as well as Genocide. Apparently, when you decided to be evil, you went all the way. Enjoy stewing in your own hate.

    Anti-racist is a codeword for Anti-White.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi civil64, could I ask you where you heard about Migrant Tales. We have had a long stream of similar-spirited threads that are teapartyish or the American Nazi Party.

      –So, you support communism as well as Genocide.

      How am I supposed to answer that dumb question? Racism is a codeword for white supremacy?

  59. Mark

    MT

    Mark, we should count how many threads it takes before they throw in the towel and run back to another hate forum like Hommaforum and Scripta if they are in Finland.

    I wonder who has the record?

    🙂 Yep. On Stormfront they say these things and everyone gives them a medal and they feel powerful and appreciated. Then they come here and the same arguments fall like old putty off a window pane. It’s got to be a little demoralising for them. 😀

  60. george wells

    Mark, actually there is no debate here. Its just a bunch of anti-racists pleasuring each other.

    It demonstrates also the reason races divide and seek other habitats, there is a fundamental difference between two groups.

    Forcing people together as in a multi-racial society is destined to breed conflict and only holds together with coercion.

    If I had plenty of time to waste, I would try to missionary you to loyalty and other positive values for the good of your soul.

  61. BlandaUpp

    I like how they all ignored my response and any other response that makes too much sense.

    “How many “white people” did Hitler kill again?

    The definition of “white person” also differs according to geographical and historical context.

    The goalposts have been changing every few years.

    The English enslaved the Irish because they didn’t consider them “white’.

    Non Swedish speaking Finns were not considered “white”/Aryan by Hitler, we were considered Mongols.

    People in the US tried to deport socialist Finns under the “Asian Exclusion Act”.

    Countless groups like Italians, Jews and Gypsies from all over Europe moved to the USA and became “white” over a period of time.

    The current U.S. Census definition includes white “people having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East or North Africa.””

  62. Mark

    BlandaUpp

    You made some good arguments. Shame it was wasted on this troll! 😀

    Georgieboy!

    Are you being paid for this? 😀

    actually there is no debate here.

    Actually, you are right about that. You ahve nothing to say about the right and freedom of people to choose to marry who they please, black or white!

    Its just a bunch of anti-racists pleasuring each other.

    Actually it’s been mostly me trying to have a conversation with you.

    It demonstrates also the reason races divide and seek other habitats, there is a fundamental difference between two groups.

    ‘It’ is pronoun that requires an antecedent that you haven’t provided. Actually, I’m white, you are white, and there is a different between two whites in the same group. Nothing to do with ‘other’ groups.

    Forcing people together as in a multi-racial society is destined to breed conflict and only holds together with coercion.

    I’m a little disappointed that you didn’t take up the challenge to answer the question that NO-ONE arguing the kind of racist crap that you have has actually even attempted to answer. Give me just ONE example of something that you personally have been forced to do on the basis of someone else’s ethnicity?

    Come one, Georgie boy, debate means answering questions. Give it a go, you could strike gold! 🙂

    If I had plenty of time to waste, I would try to missionary you to loyalty and other positive values for the good of your soul.

    I’m Satan and I’m coming for you tonight! 😉

  63. george wells

    Mark

    I’ve personally been forced to be silent about being discriminated against because of affirmative action. There is only redress of grievances at a very high price.

    I’ve been forced to be sociable to people of other races when the cost of not being so would have cost me much socially and economically.

    I’ve been forced to do work because of the neglect of someone of another race because not to do so would have cost me much.

    I have been forced to change certain family ties due to being ethnically cleansed from a place of residence by members of another race.

    It that enough for you?

    Now would you please define what a racist is. Please give us some concrete examples all can agree on? Please give us some numbers as to the extent of racism and how much of a tangible problem it is.

    If you are Satan and coming in the middle of the night, Smith and Wesson will be happy to receive you.

  64. george wells

    If you learned that the person who first used the word RACIST,was involved with a group that killed 60 million white Christians how readily would you use that term?

    The word racist in the mouth of Trotsky= the word jew or gypsy in the mouth of Hitler= the word heretic or witch in the mouth of a catholic priest. Is there really a difference?

    Well, there are jews and gypsies. There were types of trials to determine heretics or witches. But racists? There is no method of measure on this, only accusation.

  65. Mark

    Georgie!

    So, you tried to answer the question. Brave! Or stupid. Shall we see?

    I’ve personally been forced to be silent about being discriminated against because of affirmative action. There is only redress of grievances at a very high price.

    More information please….for example, who forced you to be silent, and what was that awful ‘high price’ that you would have paid.

    I’ve been forced to be sociable to people of other races when the cost of not being so would have cost me much socially and economically.

    Forced to be social to people of other races? Are you fucking serious? And it would have cost you much socially and economically to reveal your racism? Lol. Wow……..so this is the genocide you speak of. You cannot reveal your racism because you would be widely condemned. And it’s all an evil injustice….because you have to be nice to blacks, when really you would like to…what?

    I’ve been forced to do work because of the neglect of someone of another race because not to do so would have cost me much.

    Because you would have been accused of being a racist if you had said that this ‘ethnic’ person was not doing their job? Fuck that’s paranoid!

    I have been forced to change certain family ties due to being ethnically cleansed from a place of residence by members of another race.

    You are alive. Technically speaking George—you fucking idiot—you were not ‘ethnically cleansed’, so stop stealing the vocabulary of evil to dress up your fucking prejudice. And what exactly does ‘forced to change family ties’ mean?

    Excuse my French, people.

    Is that enough for you

    Well, actually no. You gave only cryptic answers with no details except your own conclusions about the ‘meaning’ of the outcomes.

    To sum:

    You had socialise with blacks and if you had revealed how much you hated blacks you would have lost your job. Nature of your problem? = hatred of blacks + racist

    You once had to do more work because a ‘black man’ apparently slacked at the job, but rather than have the balls to report it, you decided to play the victim of race and do his work anyway! Nature of your problem? = coward + racist

    I can only guess what you mean by ‘forced to change family ties’ because you were ‘ethnically cleansed from the place where you live’. Nature of the problem? = I’m guessing here, but had to leave momma’s apartment because a black person moved into the same building? + racist.

    If you are Satan and coming in the middle of the night, Smith and Wesson will be happy to receive you.

    Smith and Wesson is me boys, they will do the job! Loaded and ready! Make sure you keep me boys close and personal!

    While you have given what appear to be 3 examples of being forced, you have offered no evidence of the fact that you were ‘forced’ to do anything other than the fact that perhaps if you were discovered to be a rampant racist, then you would have perhaps lost your job.

    Personally, I see nothing that you have suffered that wasn’t absolutely entirely self-inflicted. If you choose to hate coloured people, then you will suffer pain when you have to interact withthem and you cannot express it. Go cry me a fucking river!

    And this is your idea of ‘genocide against the whites!’

    And who started your indoctrination into white genocide? Was it a parent? A friend at school? A buddy down the shooting range? Are you really that gullible?

  66. D4R

    george wells: Mark, actually there is no debate here. Its just a bunch of anti-racists pleasuring each other.

    It demonstrates also the reason races divide and seek other habitats, there is a fundamental difference between two groups.

    Forcing people together as in a multi-racial society is destined to breed conflict and only holds together with coercion.

    If I had plenty of time to waste, I would try to missionary you to loyalty and other positive values for the good of your soul.

    Well mr george, you gotta ask yourself, why a white caucasians loking people like you, had to force themselves along time ago, to invade other parts of the world, rob, kill, and rape other races untill some got extinct. They took africans and enslaved them, tortured them and used them to build USA. and , your crying and complaining about few immigrants in europe, who just trying to have a life and survive. Read a history textbook, dont read Jussi hall aho scripta crap, it wil only alter your mind.

  67. D4R

    george wells: Now would you please define what a racist is. Please give us some concrete examples all can agree on? Please give us some numbers as to the extent of racism and how much of a tangible problem it is.

    A racist must be considered someone like you, who wants and wishes people looking like him to only deserve to live, a racist would be a person who sees nothing but peoples color and thus find fault at them. A racist would separete himself from other races. Race doesnt exist.

  68. D4R

    Civil64: Mark

    You are justifying Genocide. Please keep it up, more people turn against you Anti-Whites everyday. Every time you make a comment, more people see you for the evil lunatic that you are.

    Don’t speak for other people, speak only for deluded racist people like you. I tell you this, you guys are a minority, luckily majority of the people do not share, the sickness you guys have. You guys are dangerous species to other human species, you guys need to be locked untill you get medicated, cause you need one.

    You know what, we’re glad to claim unity among all people, we dont deparate human from other human, we’re all humanbeings, one family. I am a dark colored person and i sympathize white people, or asians, or africans, any kind of people. But you want other races to get extinct.

  69. D4R

    civil64: Migrant Tales

    You know what a White country is because you demand immigration and integration in all White countries and only White countries. You say Asia for Asians, Africa for Africans, White Countries for everybody. You are Anti-White. Everyone knows it.

    Yeah but, along time ago, people lived their own continents, Africans in Africa, Asians in Asians, Aborigins in Australia, Native Indians in America, untill some People from caucasu mountains to migrate other perts of the world and conquer. That’s how the migration all begin. Had that not happened, i believe people would still be happily living in their continents.

  70. D4R

    george wells: Its a waste of my time to try to reason with you. Its useful though to get a small taste of what is inside the mind of an anti-white anti-racist. Its a disease that I can only go out and try to prevent from expanding.

    You’re seriously need in help. You’re so deluded that i worry you may harm some people. I urge you to see a psychiatrist real quick.

  71. Dinasaurus

    Racism occurs in every possible way one can think of. And it is not only between black and white, it can for instance be Chinese against Japanese as well.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Dinasaurus, welcome to Migrant Tales. It was “refreshing” to read a coherent thread on racism. You are absolutely right: racism is a problem that exists in all cultures.

      Even so, it doesn’t mean that it is ok. It means we have to do a lot more work to stamp it out.

      Much of the denial seen recently on our threads is what I would call colorblind racism. Here is a good link that should set you on your way: http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/colour-blind-racism/

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi plerudulier and welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales. Thank you for picking up Mark’s blog entry, Multiculturalism is dead – long live multiculturalism.

      We look forward to hearing from you and, why not, hearing from us on your blog.

    • plerudulier

      You’re welcome. I won’t hesitate to reblog should the content be of same quality as the one of multiculturalism.
      It just so happened that I spent 5 years in Finland so it kind of resonated familiar.

  72. Londoner

    justicedemon

    contracts are papers, in many cases nothing more. UK and Belgium (probably many more in EU) are breaking free movement of people and their opportunity to work in a another EU country.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Londoner and welcome to Migrant Tales. I’ll leave JusticeDemon to answer your question but a lot of things happen when a ship is sinking. I hope that isn’t the case for the EU or euro.

  73. george wells

    george wells: Now would you please define what a racist is. Please give us some concrete examples all can agree on? Please give us some numbers as to the extent of racism and how much of a tangible problem it is.

    A racist must be considered someone like you, who wants and wishes people looking like him to only deserve to live, a racist would be a person who sees nothing but peoples color and thus find fault at them. A racist would separete himself from other races. Race doesnt exist.
    ——————————

    I love it. Again no answer. Anti-racists can’t define racism or give a clear example of a racist because its just a negative concept. Anti-racists developed it to attack with. They attack white people because it is a project of de-construction of White society that they are after.

    If you learned that the person who first used the word RACIST,was involved with a group that killed 60 million white Christians how readily would you use that term?

    Forging concepts such as “white resentment” and “white privilege” are just a variation on that theme of white genocide.

    That man referred to above was Leon Trotsky, the white genocidist.

    But then he is no more of a white genocidists than those here who support the prevent multi-racial empire.

  74. Londoner

    May be all who were EU positive should thank Greece that it stole and will keep steeling billions of euros but stopped (or looks like it will stop/hopefully will stop) the collective madness?

    The Lisbon strategy never really took place, though it was a noble idea.

    The Strasbourg-parliament project costing a lot (probably billions per year) when moving every dossier of interest from Brussels. Why? The same buttons can be found in Brussels.

    To create a union where the labour can move freely did not really become a success story. I heard once a that only 5 % (officially) of the EU-population has gone across the boarder to start job.

    The EU has put in place the world’s largest market for greenhouse gases according the international meeting in Copenhagen.

    This recent rather ridiculous website by the freedom party in the Netherlands, report all kind of suspicious activity in our country ONLY from citizens of eastern European countries.

    Personally I think that the Eastern European countries have been the biggest winners in EU, economical figures show this quite well. Having heard also that Poles said ”We moved from one union to another, now Brussels decides, before it was Moscow.” Poles complain???

    The standard of living has probably risen in the EU, but so has the national debt levels. To an intolerable level. The steel and coal guys up to scary levels.

    A German female MP in Brussels was mugged near the EU-parliament. She had to wait 25 minutes for the ambulance to arrive and 90 mins for the police. She thought it was way out of line to wait so long and wasn’t really happy either with the police input at the crime scene. The incident was discussed in the EU-parliament, the guys there wanted more surveillance around the parliament neighborhood. The police in Brussels sarcastingly commmented, money money EU. Therefore it is good that this happens to the top politicians what is happening rather often to Mr and Mrs Belgium.

    And the Polish plumber who is too competent to work where the jobs are waiting for him.

    And the Danish boarder controls on bridge preventing crime were condemned to hell. Why, it’s their full right to do so.

    Sarkozy sending Roma people back from where they came after they had broken the 3-month rule(he actually paid them after they had violated the law). He was literally labeled racist by every potential organization.

    Polls of say that EU seems to have lost the support of its own citizens. Right-wing rising from left and right nowadays throughout the continent.

    THE MADNESS HAVE TO STOP!!!

  75. D4R

    Hakkrainen situations proves that most finns who cry about tax money getting wasted on immigrants, who say: Somalis are leeching our tax money, are hypocritical. Why arent these guys complaining when hakkarainen is continuosly partying and living luxury life ON THEIR TAX MONEY. It’s okay for Hakkarainen to spend tax payers money, but when a few immigrants who need seriously help are given few Euros, oh no, they get mad about it. They elected this knob to the parliament and all his doing now is partying not contributing to anything. The other day i was reading Iltalehti where they were sympathising him, that he needs help. Talk about hypocritical.

    • Migrant Tales

      Good point, D4R. Let’s take another example: Hirvisaari’s fine that was paid by Halla-aho, Immonen and Eerola.

  76. D4R

    george wells: I love it. Again no answer. Anti-racists can’t define racism or give a clear example of a racist because its just a negative concept. Anti-racists developed it to attack with. They attack white people because it is a project of de-construction of White society that they are after.

    I already answer you, maybe you don’t read between the lines. You just want to be a troll. I told you a racist is someone like you, who sees nothing but race in people, not of who they’re innerly. If you really want the definition, then i suggest you go to wikipedia, stop coming here being atrol asking as the same question, when you’re run of an argument. And this white people you constantly talking about, listen white people are all over the world, even including Finns like you, so what makes you think that other people cant come to your country, when you guys have th privelege to move every corner in the world. the earth belong to all people, if some can go a reside all places, so can other too.

  77. Mixup

    D4R

    You sound bitter, desperate, angry and totally ambivalent. Nobody listens to individuals expressing themselves in the way you do.

    • Migrant Tales

      –You sound bitter, desperate, angry and totally ambivalent. Nobody listens to individuals expressing themselves in the way you do.

      On the contrary, Mixup. D4R has a lot of guts to be on this blog. He may be the first Somali Finn you have ever spoken to in your life. If that is the case, you should take advantage and try to understand what he is saying. He may be your key to banish your prejudices of other groups.

      In my neck of the woods, that is a pretty good deal.

  78. Dinasaurus

    ”On the contrary, Mixup. D4R has a lot of guts to be on this blog. He may be the first Somali Finn you have ever spoken to in your life. If that is the case, you should take advantage and try to understand what he is saying. He may be your key to banish your prejudices of other groups.”

  79. Mark

    Mixup

    You sound bitter, desperate, angry and totally ambivalent. Nobody listens to individuals expressing themselves in the way you do.

    I think you mistake the meaning for ambivalent. D4R is passionate about living a life free of discrimination. He is articulate and still open to developing his opinions, which I have to say is a very rare quality.

    I’m not sure why you think he is desperate, maybe you would care to elaborate? I understand his frustration. Ironic too that the people who bombard him directly with their racist views would also be critical of him because he reacts to that stereotyping with an element of righteous anger. Some anger is justified, and when people abuse your rights, then anger is an important response. If you don’t like it, Mixup, that’s good, because it means his anger has registered with you, and maybe one day you will move a step closer to trying to understand and validate his anger. This doesn’t mean you have to agree, but it does mean that you won’t simply dismiss it because you have some kind of blanket moral rule that ‘all anger is bad’.

    On the contrary, I have been very happy to listen to D4Ws views as expressed on this blog. His is a very very important voice. Much more so than yours, Mixup. Let’s see now, what have you contributed to the debate on this thread? You’ve come on only to attack the character of someone else who is actually responding to questions and positions made in the discussion. Wow….massive contribution right there….NOT! lol

    • Migrant Tales

      OK, fine Mixup. Instead of attacking D4R you should take the opportunity to understand him. I am grateful that we have people like him on our blog.

  80. Mark

    Londoner

    The Lisbon strategy never really took place, though it was a noble idea.

    Yep, and the reason was that it was non-binding.

    To create a union where the labour can move freely did not really become a success story. I heard once a that only 5 % (officially) of the EU-population has gone across the boarder to start job.

    The jury is still out on that one. The point is, to compete globally, the EU has to function as a bloc, with free movement of goods, services and resources (inlcuding people). Someone joked once that the EU is not as competitive because we are not prepared like the Americans to ’empty Montana’ if it is cost-effective to do so. There is an element of economic entropy in ‘open systems’. People will search for better work and conditions, and that means movement away from poorer countries, which were the former Soviet satellites. However, in the bigger picture, having them inside the EU was a very positive strategic move. Europe will come out stronger in the end in the same way that Germany did following reunification.

    I heard once a that only 5 % (officially) of the EU-population has gone across the boarder to start job.

    Well, you cannot have it both ways, preserving national cultures and having massive economic migration within the bloc. 5% sounds like a sustainable level of inward migration.

    The standard of living has probably risen in the EU, but so has the national debt levels. To an intolerable level. The steel and coal guys up to scary levels.

    Actually, this is not entirely true. What rose was the cost of servicing the debt. Governments found it more and more expensive and difficult to borrow money on the markets following the liquidity crunch. That turned what were at the time sustainable levels of debt into unsustainable levels. The situation has not changed. Having inefficient economies then tied to efficient economies meant that the weaker economies get dragged through the mud trying to keep up. Proper economic integration in Europe means that Europe has to have much more harmonized economic policies. The lesson? It’s all or nothing. The half-way solutions used so far have only shown the EU’s fundamental weaknesses. Either it is strengthened, which seems to be the intention, or it is disbanded.

    He was literally labeled racist by every potential organization.

    Yes, and I wonder why? It is against EU law to target an ethnic group, even if there was criminality involved. The only legal and non-racist response was to deal with any problem case by case. As it was, the authorities provided no evidence of criminality to support the mass deportations. That was why there was such widespread outrage.

    Polls of say that EU seems to have lost the support of its own citizens. Right-wing rising from left and right nowadays throughout the continent.

    Yes, because Europeans have shown their gullability for racist and populist politics before. The whole attitude of ‘we’re better off on our own’ is short-sighted. Europe has to move forward as a bloc or end up an economic backwater. That’s how I see it.

  81. Mixup

    Migrant Tales

    Sure all dogs can bark, at least when forced to do so.

    He reasons with the ”my friends would never do” …,therefore nobody belonging to that community does anything bad. Newspapers seem to generally be like papers you wipe the ass with. He embodies doctor’s entitlement handing out clinical statements in the comments. Others who don’t agree with him are liars. Statistics belong to trash.

    But where are the constructive arguments, the constructive criticism, the solutions, the logical reasoning backed up with other examples/statistics/positive support of others/pragmatical stuff, the understanding for the other individual. And if he is so good, why does he need support of others in order to stay convincing?

    ”A good product needs no marketing, I-PHONE”

  82. Mark

    Mixup

    So far, you have offered absolutely zero insight into the nature of racism. On the contrary, you come on here only to play the man and not the ball.

    He reasons with the ”my friends would never do” …,therefore nobody belonging to that community does anything bad.

    His community is attacked as a ‘group’. Time and again on here he has asked people to regard Somalis as individuals, but very rarely do any of those criticising his community actually accept the point. In being forced to defend his community, he has tried again and again to point out that while there are bad apples in his community as there are in all communities, the vast majority are hard-working law-abiding citizens of Finland. Why don’t you just acknowledge that instead of making a point about the fact that he has to defend his community in the first place.

    Others who don’t agree with him are liars. Statistics belong to trash.

    Shows how much you have followed this blog. Again, you are playing the man and not the ball. If you want to talk statistics, let’s do it.

    But where are the constructive arguments, the constructive criticism, the solutions, the logical reasoning backed up with other examples/statistics/positive support of others/pragmatical stuff, the understanding for the other individual.

    I could easily ask you the same. As for Migrant Tales’ approach to the topic, we invite construtive criticism, valid social criticism especially when done with a view to problem solving, and also a fair and balanced consideration of everyone’s concerns, regardless of the status.

    And if he is so good, why does he need support of others in order to stay convincing?

    Still playing the man and not the ball. Because of all the commentators that come on here (including this thread), especially those that have no interest in debating but rather peddle inhuman ideologies, you choose to go after the Somali, who’s only crime really is to express his frustration. He’s not peddling an ideology or making completely black and white statements, unlike many. Funny, huh!

    ”A good product needs no marketing, I-PHONE”

    So, if that is the sum of your constructive approach to the topic of discussing racism. Goodbye!

  83. Mark

    Mixup

    the ball might pass, the man might pass. but they never pass together.

    Is that an attempt to improve your contribution to the debate? Rehashing my words to do what? To undermine what I said to you? You came in here and immediately started playing the man. No ball in sight. Still no ball in sight. If you want to play, then focus on the topic, which in case you forgot, was multiculturalism as a political plaything.

  84. D4R

    Mark:I think you mistake the meaning for ambivalent. D4R is passionate about living a life free of discrimination. He is articulate and still open to developing his opinions, which I have to say is a very rare quality.

    Mark, I appreciate your kind words.

  85. Londoner

    Mark

    France did not target any ethnic group.

    Decision making in EU is rather slow n complicated. The economical requisits have very little value these days. It doesn’t really change the facts of economy if you see on them from another angle or use other terminology.

    The same with the functionality of EU and its different bodies. They work but not very well. The worst thing with the union is that things don’t seem to be fixed, even if they are totallly coughing.

  86. Londoner

    The Roma broke the three month rule, completetly. Thus France not only had the right but may be the obligation to send them away. And they even paid the violaters.

    They did not sign up by the police at arrival in France
    They did not provide safe conditions to live, they lived in the fields in camps
    Most of the people (if not all of them) lacked id/travel-documents

    It is people like you who destroy constructive discussion about racism. Just join mainstream and the more one is able to shout the better it is.

  87. Mark

    Londoner

    You looked this up, didn’t you? Funny. 😀

    You said this:

    France did not target any ethnic group.

    And the chief of staff for interior minister, Brice Hortefeux, sent this memo out all to local officials on the 5th August:

    Three hundred camps or illegal settlements must be evacuated within three months; Roma camps are a priority. It is down to the préfect [state representative] in each department to begin a systematic dismantling of the illegal camps, particularly those of the Roma.

    This was the memo. It breaks EU laws. A state is not allowed to create or follow such a policy against an ethnic minority.

    The state is allowed to follow individual cases and to act on those cases once they have followed the appropriate procedures, i.e. respected the legal rights of EU citizens. Do you really think that just because these were Roma people that they do no deserve the same rights as other EU citizens? If you do, in my book, that is racism.

    You allege that they broke the 3 month rule, i.e. broke the law, did not sign up with police, did not provide safe living conditions, and yet no investigations were carried out in individual cases to support these allegations.

    It is people like you who destroy constructive discussion about racism.

    Pardon?! So what did I say that got your knickers in a twist? You’re playing the man and not the ball. That’s a foul on this blog, mate! Yellow card.

    • Migrant Tales

      –The Roma broke the three month rule, completetly. Thus France not only had the right but may be the obligation to send them away. And they even paid the violaters.

      So what you are saying it was ok to kick out these EU citizens from France?

      These are the kinds of comments that worry me.

  88. Londoner

    sure, the Romas were the biggest danger to themselves and their surrounding due to their big number of people. You start where the problem is the worst, right that is how France acted. Blame Romania and Bulgaria if you need a scapegoat, they misuse the funds given topromote the life of these people. Romas are discriminated, to get them out in Europe begging and probably engaging in criminal activity do not solve any problems.

    If you think it is ok Migrant Tales to violate the 3 months rule, I suggest that next time people travel to Finland you accomodate them outside your backyard. You can take 300 Spanish (if Roma is sensitive) who by rumours are getting to Finland now and see what big bunch of people can do who lack the basics of water and sanitary stuff to food preparation facilities.

  89. Mark

    Londoner

    You start where the problem is the worst, right that is how France acted.

    You are dodging the bullet. France are NOT allowed to target deportations based on ethnicity, and the official communication identified people of a specific ethnicity for deportation. That alone broke the 2004 Directive of Free Movement of Persons.

    Blame Romania and Bulgaria if you need a scapegoat

    It’s a pan-European problem that requires a European answer.

    Romas are discriminated, to get them out in Europe begging and probably engaging in criminal activity do not solve any problems.

    Agreed, and shipping them from one country to another is not a solution either. What Roma people need are rights, access to education and health care, and a means to make a living.

    If you think it is ok Migrant Tales to violate the 3 months rule, I suggest that next time people travel to Finland you accomodate them outside your backyard.

    The 3-month rule is an opt out of the full right to travel that is only valid until 2014.

    You can take 300 Spanish (if Roma is sensitive) who by rumours are getting to Finland now and see what big bunch of people can do who lack the basics of water and sanitary stuff to food preparation facilities.

    And the answer for dealing with this vulnerable populution who lack rights, identity and access to any kind of services is to what….violate them even more! That is the difference between you and me Londoner.

    There are not easy answers, but there are short-sighted ‘solutions’, and you are right on that bandwagon!

  90. Londoner

    To stop this madness I agree with you. The more EU fails over this kind of issues and other similar stuff the more likely it is that the Union will collaps.

    People are suffering and the more suffering is inflicted upon innocent people the more likely it is that the madness will stop one day. You may use fancy rhetorics ”gullability for racist and populist politics” but where is the human approach.

    Humans are not well in the madhouse called EU.

  91. Mark

    Londoner

    Understanding is worth more in this debate than agreement. In this case, the EU stood up for the rights of Roma, it was France who let the Roma down. They are not alone in turning their back on the Roma. In Hungary last year, the Roma invited the government to send just one official representative to attend a simple memorial for the more than one million Roma murdered in Nazi death camps – not one official turned up. That’s the nature of the problem.

  92. Londoner

    Funny that you distinguish between you and me. ”That is the difference between you and me Londoner.”

    Should be impressed, convinced or astonished by this declaration?

    The difference between you and me Mark, I do not make these statements emphasising my own ego on the expense of others.

  93. Londoner

    Mark

    You also forgot the official version.

    ”the leaked memo emerged a few days after France’s immigration minister, Eric Besson, insisted that sending police to destroy camps and settlements and ordering inhabitants to leave France was not aimed at the Roma. He insisted they were being treated no differently to other EU migrants who do not meet France’s residency rules.”

  94. justicedemon

    Londoner

    This is a no-brainer. France ratified Protocol No. 4 to the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms in May 1974. Article 4 of that instrument is completely unequivocal:

    Collective expulsion of aliens is prohibited.

    This means that France made a solemn promise to examine the case for and against expelling each individual alien through a separate and individual administrative process. It is irrelevant whether or not a collective expulsion measure selectively targets an ethnic or national minority. Such a measure is already illegal simply because it is a collective measure. By implementing such a measure, France showed that its solemn promises cannot be trusted.

  95. Mark

    Londoner

    The difference between you and me Mark, I do not make these statements emphasising my own ego on the expense of others.

    Oh, what was this then in your first reply to me?

    It is people like you who destroy constructive discussion about racism.

    Moreover, in pointing out the difference between you and me, I pointed only to the facts of our discussion. I object to France’s violation of the human rights of Roma people and you defended France and even claimed it was legal and that they did not target an ethnic group.

    That IS the difference between you and me, and I simply underlined that. Sorry if it hurts to be told you are violating their human rights, but that, my friend, are the facts of the case, a fact that was underlined by the action taken against France by the EU Commission for breaking the terms of the 2004 Declaration. As JD pointed it, it also breaks other human rights commitments that France is signed up to. If you don’t like it, I suggest you stop defending France’s actions.

  96. Mark

    Londoner

    Mark

    You also forgot the official version.

    ”the leaked memo emerged a few days after France’s immigration minister, Eric Besson, insisted that sending police to destroy camps and settlements and ordering inhabitants to leave France was not aimed at the Roma. He insisted they were being treated no differently to other EU migrants who do not meet France’s residency rules.”

    So which is true here, Londoner, the official version put out by Besson, or the real version as confirmed by a memo sent to all state officials leaked a few days later which completely contradicted him?

  97. London

    Besson’s face was in the press conference so it’s probably true.

    It’s not a discussion between you and me, more about that EU ain’t working.

    France, I have a good idea of how things are in France. I saw the car burnings over a period of time. Guys trying to run away from the police, got killed and this gave the right for others to burn a few thousand cars.

  98. Mark

    London

    Besson’s face was in the press conference so it’s probably true.

    What does ‘it’ refer to here, your version or the publicly accepted version that France illegally targeted an ethnic group for deportation?

    What do you know about the EU, London? In fact, what do you know about any of these ethnic issues? You seem to give only vague descriptions and negative ‘closed’ conclusions. The realities are far more complex.

    Guys trying to run away from the police, got killed and this gave the right for others to burn a few thousand cars.

    I don’t get this. Who do you think is saying they had the right to commit that kind of violence?

    Do you think that any kind of attempt to understand the problem is just another way of saying that it was justified and okay? That makes it a ‘no-win’ for anyone trying to get to the bottom of the situation. Did you ever hear the phrase ‘the spark that lit the powder keg’? It generally means that tensions have built up over time and that a single incident has released that built up tension. If you only wish to consider the spark and not the powder keg, then of course it won’t make any sense to you.

  99. Londoner

    Official statement, no ethnic discrimination. No discrimination in the measures either.

    No conviction on neither one.

  100. Mark

    Londoner

    The facts of the case were never in question Londoner. However, the 27 commissioners who decided the matter nevertheless decided there was not enough ‘evidence’, even though the circular very clearly contradicted the official line. That a significant number of other countries would also face prosecution for targeting Roma is accepted as the unofficial reason why this case was dropped. Likewise, the fact the EU failed to prosecute France is seen not as a failure in the argument, but a failure in the Commission’s ability to enforce its own laws. Still, respect must go to Viviene Reding for publicly rebuking France.

  101. Londoner

    ”That is the difference between you and me Londoner.” by this you distingiush between people. I thought people were equal but I was mistaking.

    and questions

    ”What do you know about the EU”

    By this superior question I can ask you, what course have you taken in the EU? Uni, when, where?

  102. Mark

    Londoner

    By this superior question I can ask you, what course have you taken in the EU? Uni, when, where?

    You answer the same question and I’ll answer in reply…

  103. Mark

    Londoner

    ”That is the difference between you and me Londoner.” by this you distingiush between people. I thought people were equal but I was mistaking.

    Being different is not the same as being unequal. If I am wrong in saying that you defended France’s actions and I say that they were an illegal violation of the human rights of Roma people, then say so. Otherwise, stop trying to make this personal.

  104. justicedemon

    The principal aim of the European Union, as outlined by Robert Schuman in 1948-49 and codified in the Schuman Declaration of 9 May 1950, was to establish a structure that would foster enduring peace between Member States, and that would prevent another total war between France and Germany in particular.

    Obviously this has failed, as France and Germany have had errr… how many total wars since the 1951 Treaty of Paris?

  105. Mark

    Londoner, you started with the attitude mate. Do I yet again have to repeat myself. In your very first reply to me, you wrote:

    It is people like you who destroy constructive discussion about racism.

    Okay, my credentials. Forget university (though I have a relevant degree), how about real life? I work at a research institute where I’m an expert consultant on EU funding applications for the 7th Framework Program. I have personally edited several hundred EU development reports. I’m a communications specialist by trade with 10 years experience of dealing directly with EU projects.

    Now your turn.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Stevie this has got to one of the shortest comments I have ever seen: “Mark.” Welcome to Migrant Tales.

  106. Seppo Lehto

    Monikulttuurisuus – islam – viranomaismielivalta – kommunismi = Suomen tuho edessä, jollei perinteiset arvomme voita

    Aseita tarvitaan aina jotta rauha säilyy 😉 perinteinen suojeluskuntakäytäntö olisi syytä palauttaa ja vanhat aselait voimaan.

    Jos vain toisilla on aseet niin toisista tulee ruumiita. Tapaus Breivik sopii hyvänä esimerkkiä lähestyy asiaa sitten mistä suunnasta tahansa. Viattomia ei ole kun aseet alkavat laulaa.

    Siksi pelkästään viranomaismielivaltaa vastaan pitäisi olla riittävä kalusto kaikilla. Näin on torjuttu kautta aikain totalitarismia ja mustien autojen öisiä vierailuja.

    Paras tae sananvapaudelle on jokaisella lonkalla heiluva colt / peacemaker Texas tapaan.

    Seppo Lehto Gegen Bolsevismus und multicult

  107. eyeopener

    Hi Londoner. Nice to see you here.

    However, shouting at people about credentials is not so nice. But, please, inform us about yours. And……. don’t turn tables.

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