Multiculturalism in Canada and Australia

by , under All categories, Enrique

In order to clear up matters a little, I would like to show how multiculturalism as a social policy is defined in Canada and Australia. Contrary to Finland, both counties have been strongly influenced by immigration.

ADDITION (March 1, 2010): If there were a list of countries with liberal and conservative policies on immigration, Finland would end up at the bottom-end of the latter group. It has not only been in immigration policy (or the lack of it/Finland got its first immigration act in 1983!) but in its view of foreign investment (see Restricting Act of 1939, which was in force until 1992!).

What is incredible to note, and taking into account the ever-higher number of pensioners and thus a threat to our economic wellbeing, NO political party in Finland has an official immigration policy.  This is, in my opinion, incredible taking into account the demographic threats that will either make or break us economically this decade.

Even though Finland is not officially a multicultural nation, its constitution and laws encourage the same values but not as passionately.   In the Finnish Constitution and Equality Act there are, for example, no mention of the term “multicultural society.”

Moreover, in these countries I am certain that people do not go around describing their societies as multicultural every chance they get. However, it is kind of interesting that we in Finland, which has a very small foreign population, use this term liberally.


Multiculturalism in Canada

The concept of Canada as a “multicultural society” can be interpreted in different ways: descriptively (as a sociological fact), prescriptively (as ideology), from a political perspective (as policy), or as a set of intergroup dynamics (as process).

As fact, “multiculturalism” in Canada refers to the presence and persistence of diverse racial and ethnic minorities who define themselves as different and who wish to remain so. Ideologically, multiculturalism consists of a relatively coherent set of ideas and ideals pertaining to the celebration of Canada’s cultural diversity. Multiculturalism at the policy level is structured around the management of diversity through formal initiatives in the federal, provincial and municipal domains. Finally, multiculturalism is the process by which racial and ethnic minorities compete to obtain support from central authorities for the achievement of certain goals and aspirations.

This study focuses on an analysis of Canadian multiculturalism both as a demographic reality and as a public policy.

Multiculturalism in Australia

‘Multicultural’ is a term that describes the cultural and linguistic diversity of Australian society. Cultural and linguistic diversity was a feature of life for the first Australians, well before European settlement. It remains a feature of modern Australian life, and it continues to give us distinct social, cultural and business advantages.

The Australian Government’s multicultural policy addresses the consequences of this diversity in the interests of the individual and society as a whole. It recognises, accepts, respects and celebrates our cultural diversity.

The freedom of all Australians to express and share their cultural values is dependent on their abiding by mutual civic obligations. All Australians are expected to have an overriding loyalty to Australia and its people, and to respect the basic structures and principles underwriting our democratic society. These are: the Constitution, parliamentary democracy, freedom of speech and religion, English as the national language, the rule of law, acceptance and equality.

  1. Tony Garcia

    Asking multiculturalists to abandon multiculturalism is like asking a Christian to abandon Christianity. It’s no possible, no matter how much evidence you give on how bad it’s, not just to the host country but also to the immigrants who insist on it. Adaptation is a sin and the truth is secondary, the religious dogma is primary. Diversity is good, more diversity is better, a lot diversity is great. That’s is the catechism of the multicultural left.

    Unfortunately the left mind just doesn’t accept reality for what it’s. When they don’t like reality they deny it. So when they don’t like the reality that Islam is against the values they hold so dear they just deny it. Not just to us but particularly to themselves, creating this parallel dimension where they live in.

    One interesting aspect I think it should be noticed here is the herd instinct. Many multiculturalists don’t actually know what this means in practice. Most people just heard that multiculturalism is good, and so it is. That’s why, as we have seen in the very same blog a score of times, the best weapon we have against multiculturalism is clarity, reality and facts.

    Finns, after all they have achieved for the last 100 years, now need someone else to help them or they’ll destroy their own society. More importantly, someone very differently to everything they always believed and fought for. Someone to make them better, someone who can reshape this society, because now, they are just not good enough. Now what they need is heterogeneity.

    The left contempt for the homogeneity is very deep. Only heterogeneity will save this society, nothing else. And then what it will do in its benevolent autocracy, is make you better, even though no one has ever answer how. No one ever answered how little Mikko will benefit for having little Abdulla at his side in the classroom. This is just sold as “it just is”. If you don’t believe so, then you a heretic, or in the multicultural fate a “racist”.

  2. Mateus

    An intriguing writer is Phillippe Legrain, who wrote ‘Immigrants: why your country needs them’ and ‘Open world’.

    Here is a quite vague debate that can give us an idea of his opinions:

    • Enrique

      Mateus, the video clip you sent was spot on! I hope a lot of us have the opportunity to see it.

  3. Tiwaz

    So what the hell has Australia or Canada have to do with Finland?

    Is either of them Finland?
    No.
    Does either share similar ethnic and cultural history as Finland?
    No.

    Apples and oranges!

    Finland is society which is built over millenia by Finns, for Finns in Finnish way.

    Canada and Australia are colonies which were built by either killing or relocating natives of those lands, turning them to tiny little minority who only very recently have actually earned notification as human beings!

    We do not need to know how fucked up Canada is. Or how Australia wants to handle itself.

    This is Finland, it is Finnish.
    Learn to deal with that fact.

    As for Legrain. Apparently economist and journalist. Neither of which give him any competence on other aspects besides economical side of immigration.

    Economically immigration is of course good, having slave underclass to abuse is always good for business owners. Rest of society can suffer for all they care.

    • Enrique

      –So what the hell has Australia or Canada have to do with Finland?

      The reason why I posted something about multiculturalism in Canada and Australia is: (1) to get an idea how multiculturalism as a state social policy is defined and (2) Finns, who live in a country with a miniscule number of immigrants, use this term to describe “foreigners.” Even though multiculturalism may be losing some ground in some countries, it is a way of life in Canada. Even though they have a conservative government, they are not asking to lift it or exchange it with the old system.

      Please, Tiwaz, spare us the crocodile tears about how immigrants are being abused… One of the things that social disobedience and movements do, Tiwaz, is that they question attitudes and claims by people as yourself. Take a look at the civil rights movement in the US in the 1950s and 1960s… See how blacks were seen before and the pride and political power they gained thereafter. With your attitude you want to maintain myths and immigrants in an underclass through hostility and bigotry with a big “B.”

  4. Tiwaz

    Fuck… It is worse…

    I ran little more googling on the lunatic and it appears he wants to abolish ALL immigration controls.

    He is totally, absolutely, batshit insane.

    • Enrique

      –I ran little more googling on the lunatic and it appears he wants to abolish ALL immigration controls.

      Probably a misread and a liberal interpretation of events to suit your view of things.

  5. Tiwaz

    -“Probably a misread and a liberal interpretation of events to suit your view of things.”

    So you are praising guy you did not even study before praising?

    His own little blog:

    http://www.philippelegrain.com/legrain/2009/09/iconoclasts-why-we-should-abolish-immigration-controls.html

    http://www.philippelegrain.com/legrain/2009/03/dozens-dead-hundreds-missing.html

    He is a fucking lunatic who wants to open borders of Europe for anyone to come and go as they please.

    Unlike you, I do not twist or ignore facts for my benefit. Because I do not need to!

    -“The reason why I posted something about multiculturalism in Canada and Australia is: (1) to get an idea how multiculturalism as a state social policy is defined and (2) Finns, who live in a country with a miniscule number of immigrants, use this term to describe “foreigners.” Even though multiculturalism may be losing some ground in some countries, it is a way of life in Canada. Even though they have a conservative government, they are not asking to lift it or exchange it with the old system.”

    And so fucking what? In what way are Australia or Canada relevant to what Finland is? Neither of them are nations which would in any way resemble Finland, so however they define themselves is irrelevant for Finland.

    -“Please, Tiwaz, spare us the crocodile tears about how immigrants are being abused… One of the things that social disobedience and movements do, Tiwaz, is that they question attitudes and claims by people as yourself. Take a look at the civil rights movement in the US in the 1950s and 1960s… See how blacks were seen before and the pride and political power they gained thereafter.”

    Issue is, foreigners as it is are NOT treated differently. You are not campaigning for fair treatment of immigrants, they already have it, but PREFERENTIAL treatment of immigrants.

    You do not want immigrants to be EQUAL, you want them to be PREFERRED. How? By demanding that they cannot be demanded same things that are required from Finn who wants to get employment.

    That is racism against Finns.

    -“With your attitude you want to maintain myths and immigrants in an underclass through hostility and bigotry with a big “B.””

    What myths? Myth that Finland has it’s own, unique culture?

    Tell me, does Japan in your view NOT have unique culture?

    If your answer to this is “No, there is myth of Japanese culture” you are talking out of your ass, because anyone with half a mind can tell that Japanese culture exists and is VERY real.

    If your answer to this is “Yes, Japanese culture exists”…

    You have to justify WHY Japanese have unique culture but existence of Finnish unique culture is a myth.

    Second, my hostility is reserved for those immigrants who are lazy or stupid. Or both.
    This is seen as them expecting Finland to adjust to them, instead of them getting off their lazy asses and learning skills which make them useful and employable in Finland.

    • Enrique

      –In what way are Australia or Canada relevant to what Finland is?

      As Finland’s immigrant population rises, we need a comprehensive program and policy. The examples of Australia and Canada, as well as others, would help us to use what we think would adapt to our needs and help us not commit the same mistakes of the past. So, Tiwaz, I do see that we can learn a lot from their experience.

      By “unique” culture if you mean that all cultures are “unique.” There are certain characteristics that make cultures “unique” such as language and customs, but they are all constantly influenced by a barrage of cultural interaction. Cultures change and take different forms and are constantly in a state of change.

      –This is seen as them expecting Finland to adjust to them, instead of them getting off their lazy asses and learning skills which make them useful and employable in Finland.

      When a person does that what you say (applies to Finns as well) they are poorly adapted. Any person who wants to succeed in a new country or city must make the effort to gather information, learn the habits and cultural traits. This does not mean that he/she has to accept them, but knowing them would help them succeed better in the place they are at.

  6. Tiwaz

    -“As Finland’s immigrant population rises, we need a comprehensive program and policy. The examples of Australia and Canada, as well as others, would help us to use what we think would adapt to our needs and help us not commit the same mistakes of the past. So, Tiwaz, I do see that we can learn a lot from their experience.”

    And they prove that multiculturalism in all it’s forms is failure. Thus we should see them as examples on what NOT to do.

    You are behind the trend, I have been telling that for ages. What Finland has to do is enforcement of principle where in Finland, immigrants adjust to Finland and Finland goes on as it has.

    -“By “unique” culture if you mean that all cultures are “unique.” There are certain characteristics that make cultures “unique” such as language and customs, but they are all constantly influenced by a barrage of cultural interaction. Cultures change and take different forms and are constantly in a state of change.”

    So what the hell is your talk about how Finnish culture is a myth?

    You are insulting my very heritage every time you, product of colonialism, utter that BS.

    And clearly you still have not grasped the essential of cultural change.

    Cultures change only when added portion does NOT conflict existing culture, and cultures change according to desires of natives who are part of that culture.

    Foreigners neither have any business telling what to add to culture nor how.

    -“When a person does that what you say (applies to Finns as well) they are poorly adapted. Any person who wants to succeed in a new country or city must make the effort to gather information, learn the habits and cultural traits. This does not mean that he/she has to accept them, but knowing them would help them succeed better in the place they are at.”

    No, they have to accept that this is the way things are. They cannot just know how things are done, they have to DO things the way they are done.

    Does this mean they have to become natives? No, they even can’t do it.

    But they have to accept responsibility that when they fail to act in a way that is considered required by native community, and consequently fail to get anywhere, it is THEIR fault.

    • Enrique

      –So what the hell is your talk about how Finnish culture is a myth?

      Because I do not believe cultures are so different from each other except for langauge and a few cultural traits. We make those latter differences in order to exaggerate our perception that we are something so different. Why is it so important – such a big thing?

      –You are insulting my very heritage every time you, product of colonialism, utter that BS.

      Your heritage?! Not. It is our heritage. The word “colonialism” says it all and explains why you mistrust immigrants and most things not Finnish. You see it as colonialism, which it is not.

  7. ed

    Finland is such a great nation, yet no one outside of Finland knows that it even exists!!!

    How’s that for such a “´great nation”? Get over yourselves Finns; Finland is not as great as you believe.

    Of course diversity is great! It is by no accident that the most diverse nation in the world, the USA, is the greatest country in the world. The truth is that all cultures have something good to offer! When that good is used constructively for the betterment of society, everyone wins!

    The great USA; the beacon light for multi-culturalism in the world!!!Finland needs more diversity, if only to rid Finns of their stubborn , cruel ways!

    • Enrique

      Hi ed, you are absolutely right about Blacks achieving a sense of self-worth and purpose in the society they live. As long as they, or any group, allow themselves to be pushed around by society in general, nothing will change. Finland is a country that respects democratic institutions and basic civil rights. These are the tools that immigrants must use to state that they are also a part of our society.

      If Finland is about three decades behind England with respect to its multicultural background, what were some of the initial steps that blacks took in the 1970s and 1980s to get greater rights?

  8. Tiwaz

    -“Because I do not believe cultures are so different from each other except for langauge and a few cultural traits. We make those latter differences in order to exaggerate our perception that we are something so different. Why is it so important – such a big thing?”

    Again the magic word… Believe.

    Belief is not valid argument, facts are valid arguments. People who know these things, researchers, disagree with your beliefs.

    You do not “believe” cultures are so different?

    Then why cultures have concepts other cultures have no words for. Harakiri and seppuku, both are words no other culture but Japanese have. And they both have essential cultural meaning no other culture can fully conceptualize.

    Same for word sisu. Other languages try to have translation for the concept, and none of them have it right.

    Cultures are VERY different. It is only through understanding and accepting this you can get anywhere. Pretending that cultures are “not so different in my belief” is very stupid position when facts show us that cultures are extremely different.

    And it is important, because our culture is what defines us. It defines who is “us” and who is “them”. And that is essential part of human psyche.

    -“Your heritage?! Not. It is our heritage. The word “colonialism” says it all and explains why you mistrust immigrants and most things not Finnish. You see it as colonialism, which it is not.”

    You have no claim to Finnish heritage. You are foreigner, no matter what your passport tells you.

    And you ARE product of colonialism. Or do you claim that your ancestors were native inhabitants of Argentina? No. Thus, colonialist product. Product of foreigners coming and taking away land of natives and slaughtering them.

    Or are you perhaps native North American? No again. Another prime example of colonialism where foreigners come and force natives to lose their cultural identity and take away their land.

    Your attitude is precisely colonialism. You believe that you are better than natives, that natives should do as you tell them to do. That IS colonialism.

    -“Finland is such a great nation, yet no one outside of Finland knows that it even exists!!!

    How’s that for such a “´great nation”? Get over yourselves Finns; Finland is not as great as you believe.”

    Finland is great nation by virtue of being great place to live in. Foreigners not knowing about it is irrelevant to it’s greatness. Or perhaps you think that one who gets most articles written about it in media makes place great? Typical American thinking…

    By that account Iraq must be truely wonderful place to live in since today everyone knows about it.

    Except it is shithole no sane person would want to live in.

    -“Of course diversity is great! It is by no accident that the most diverse nation in the world, the USA, is the greatest country in the world. The truth is that all cultures have something good to offer! When that good is used constructively for the betterment of society, everyone wins!”

    No, it is through sheer luck and size that USA got on top. If WW2 had been fought of US soil, today USA wold not be great by any lenght. Indeed, it was the aftermath of WW2 which boosted USA to it’s position, and indeed it is multiculturalism which is right now dismantling that greatness.

    This is achieved through dismantling of any social cohesion, creating society divided against itself. Grand example of failure of multiculturalism!

    -“The great USA; the beacon light for multi-culturalism in the world!!!Finland needs more diversity, if only to rid Finns of their stubborn , cruel ways!”

    The great USA, one of the shitholes of the world. Where rich get richer, poor get poorer and wealthy barricade themselves behind fences and armed guards.

    And ethnic gangs fighting it out on the streets with guns.

    Prime example of what I do not want Finland to ever be.

    • Enrique

      Tiwaz, I have two questions for you: (1) What is multicutluralism and (2) do you believe that cultures are so different that there is no way they can get along.

      If you believe in Finland and its laws, why do you lack respect for other groups? Why do you undermine the constitution and our laws? In essence, you want a sort of segragated system were you have Finns (supreme rulers who only have to exploit immigrants culturally and economically) and the immigrants. Respect the laws of this country.

      If nobody has told you, one way to dialogue with people and, especially with members of others cultures, is to stop using derogatory and insulting terms.

      With respect to countries with immigrant histories, Finland can as well as you can learn a lot. You want to paint these countries as if they were a Yugoslavia but it is the complete opposite. Look at the facts GDP, demography, etc…

  9. Tiwaz

    You are right Enrique, we in Finland are behind the curve on multiculturalism compared to UK.

    And it is good, because now we can avoid going to the dump multiculturalism causes. We can get ahead of the curve, deny multiculturalism ability to ruin our nation and come ahead in progress to state where nations regain their pride on their own, unique culture instead of trying to pretend that all cultures are alike.

    Not only would it make Finland progressive, but it would prevent huge problems multiculturalism causes from taking place in Finland.

    • Enrique

      –Not only would it make Finland progressive, but it would prevent huge problems multiculturalism causes from taking place in Finland.

      The “huge problem” you speak of comes from people as yourself. Your analysis of the history of Finland is wrong: this country was never monocultural, it is not a lost tribe nor is it something unique. It is just one people who speak a language and have some cultural traits.

      Sorry to disappoint you: we are more similar to other people’s that you want to believe. We can even mate and have children. We can do these things because we are similar even biologically. I think it is pretty incredible that I should be teaching a grown Finn these facts of life and cultures.

  10. Tiwaz

    -“The “huge problem” you speak of comes from people as yourself. Your analysis of the history of Finland is wrong: this country was never monocultural, it is not a lost tribe nor is it something unique. It is just one people who speak a language and have some cultural traits.”

    This country is as monocultural as they ever are. ALL other cultures existing in Finland today are subject to limitations of Finnish culture.

    Finland is not lost tribe, it is tribe of itself.

    As for uniqueness.. Proof that Finnish culture and society are not unique. Because they are.

    Finnish culture is not copied from anywhere. It is fully unique, even with additions from other cultures.

    -“Sorry to disappoint you: we are more similar to other people’s that you want to believe. We can even mate and have children. We can do these things because we are similar even biologically. I think it is pretty incredible that I should be teaching a grown Finn these facts of life and cultures.”

    I find it incredible that you think you have anything to teach me…

    Let us start with very simple basics, since clearly educational system which produced you is totally imbecilic…

    Culture is NOT biological.
    Repeat after me, culture has NOTHING TO DO WITH BIOLOGY.

    Once you get that to your head we can get this discussion further.

    CULTURE IS NOT PART OF BIOLOGY BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN CULTURE IS NOT ESSENTIAL PART OF US.

    I mean… I am stunned… Person who thinks he has some business trying to speak of cultures to others cannot grasp such basic concept.

    Do you know ANYTHING about cultures at all?

    Since I am nice guy I give you good link to learn:
    http://www.tamu.edu/classes/cosc/choudhury/culture.html

    Here some parts of it:
    “# A culture is a way of life of a group of people–the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.
    # Culture is symbolic communication. Some of its symbols include a group’s skills, knowledge, attitudes, values, and motives. The meanings of the symbols are learned and deliberately perpetuated in a society through its institutions. ”

    What you may notice in all the various definitions is that when speaking of human culture, biology never enters the discussion.

    No need to thank me, I am here to educate.

    • Enrique

      Good try, Tiwaz, in twisting everything I say. It is a good matter that you have a good sense of humor. I hope you never lose it. This comes to the question of questions: How much do you actually believe what you are writing and is your aim only to irritate others with your off-the-wall views?

      Why do you continue to be anonymous? If you believed in what you say, certainly you would have to be brave enough to show your face. It is easy to make such irate statements when you are anonymous. That is a no-brainer.

  11. Tiwaz

    Are you aware, Enrique, that differences are what matter. Not similarities.

    I’ll give you again examples on why similarities are less relevant that differences.

    Carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. They are practically same right, same stuff used to make them.

    WRONG! Difference is tiny, just one atom, but that is all it takes to have substance with radically different attributes.

    Brown bear and polar bear. Both so similar since all we care is similarities. Well, if some idiot actually thought that only similarities matter they would end up dead, I hope…

    Because while brown bear when scenting human things “danger”, polar bear thinks “dinner”.

    It is not the similarities which make us closer, but differences which set ups apart. Differences matter so much more.

  12. xyz

    Tiwaz: …tell this my Finnish Fiancee. Believe me, it’s just in your brain 🙂

    Ok, let’s say Tiwaz is a hydrogen-1 protium (it does not even contain neutrons) and don’t like other elements while me and my Fiancee are a Carbon Monoxid.

    She is Carbon and I am Oxygen and we are connected to each other. We are a highly acid combination especially for people like Tiwaz who are thinking that multiculturalism does not work 🙂

    • Enrique

      xyz, if you look at what bigots say, they claim that (a) immigrants have the intelligence level of an idiot, (b) must assimilate (give up their culture and embrace something hostile), and (c) stop “complaining” on top of it. If you look at other countries, people who have problems with living and accepting others impose the same standards. They even go as far as by making threats by stating they have “issues” with people if they don’t assimilate into society.

  13. Tiwaz

    -“Tiwaz: …tell this my Finnish Fiancee. Believe me, it’s just in your brain :)”

    Or maybe it is in HER brain.

    How about you presenting proof of multiculturalism REDUCING problems in society.

    Go on, if multiculturalism is so perfect solution for everything, you MUST be able to present proof that it has reduced problems in nations where it is attempted.

    You still fail to prove that differences do not matter. Actually, you further proved my point. You and your fiance are nothing alike as you yourself admitted.

    -“xyz, if you look at what bigots say, they claim that (a) immigrants have the intelligence level of an idiot, (b) must assimilate (give up their culture and embrace something hostile), and (c) stop “complaining” on top of it. If you look at other countries, people who have problems with living and accepting others impose the same standards. They even go as far as by making threats by stating they have “issues” with people if they don’t assimilate into society.”

    If you look what bigots say, they tell that immigrants are mistreated but they never present PROOF. We are expected to change way our society works based on their word alone.

    Bigot.

    As for rest of it..

    Immigrant is an idiot if they go to foreign country and assume they can get job without speaking local language or interacting in way that is acceptable in local culture.

    If they get job, they are lucky, if they do not… It is not racism but stupidity of immigrant.

    Tell me, Enrique, how can you say that NATIVE expecting foreigner coming to his nation to respect NATIVE cultural rules is bigot but foreigner coming to that nation and demanding that HIS cultural tradition must be followed is not?

    Enrique, double standards of you make.

    I expect you preachers of multicultural goodness to prove that societies which embraced multiculturalism have decisively less problems after embracing it than before.

    Oh who are we fooling here! Multiculturalist racists hate facts and would not EVER accept that they have to prove that their religion is true. It just has to be blindly accepted, even when facts say the opposite.

    Multiculturalism is religion, and like all religions it requires blind obedience instead of looking at it in light of facts.

    Multiculturalists are todays worlds worst racists, because they see it as their privilege to demand other people, in their native land, to appease their foreign ways.

  14. xyz

    Or maybe it is in HER brain.
    -Well from your point of view maybe. I have studied and worked in 6 other countries and believe me they didn’t sit on the trees there eating bananas!

    Go on, if multiculturalism is so perfect solution for everything, you MUST be able to present proof that it has reduced problems in nations where it is attempted.
    -People are able to find work in other countries e.g. many Finns work in other Countries. If they would not get a work permit for other Countries you would have most likely even more unemployed people in Finland. Same for me. Why should I stay in Finland if there are no jobs. Ireland and my multiculti office team rocks 🙂

    • Enrique

      –Go on, if multiculturalism is so perfect solution for everything, you MUST be able to present proof that it has reduced problems in nations where it is attempted.

      xyz, I think this is the one millionth time I responded to this question. It is like whipping a dead horse to move forward. The only answer to Tiwaz is the following: you believe in the myth of monoculturalism and we believe in multiculturally diverse societies. We believe in them because we are a product of them, full stop. If you have a problem with that, then it is YOUR problem – not ours. Deal with it.

  15. xyz

    Enrique, thats why we discuss here. But it would be nice to get some new input from other people as well (against or in favor of multiculturalism).

  16. Tiwaz

    -“People are able to find work in other countries e.g. many Finns work in other Countries. If they would not get a work permit for other Countries you would have most likely even more unemployed people in Finland. Same for me. Why should I stay in Finland if there are no jobs. Ireland and my multiculti office team rocks :)”

    And do you still fail to see difference between you trying to get a job in Finland and you trying to get a job in Ireland?

    Can you speak Finnish anywhere near fluency you have with English?

    No? Well that is the answer! Your inability to communicate is your failure to get a job!

    How about you trying to get your job in Ireland if you did NOT speak any English. Do you honestly think you would have it?

    No? So why you assume you should be entitled to a job in Finland if your skills with Finnish are nonexistent?

    -“We believe in them because we are a product of them, full stop. If you have a problem with that, then it is YOUR problem – not ours. Deal with it.”

    BELIEVE!!!!

    That is the issue don’t you see? You believe in something. I am engineer, I do not believe. I demand FACTS.

    You cannot present facts to support your claim that multiculturalism is better than Finnish traditional one culture-model.

    Model which turned agrarian society to leading high-tech nation in few generations. Show me when multiculturalist society can pull it off. It can’t, because such radical change requires unity in people. Unity which cannot be achieved with multiculturalism.

    As for dead horse… I stop this when you stop pushing your multiculturalist agenda on Finland.

    You stop demanding multiculturalism, I stop demanding you to prove that it is better way than traditional Finnish way. Either that or objectively prove that multicultural society is superior and has LESS problems than traditional Finnish society.

    And I make your multiculturalist desire YOUR problem when you try to bring it to MY country. Be as multicultural as you want, in someone elses native land. Finns do not want any of your multiculturalism, so how about going somewhere where people have already committed that mistake and are suffering for it.

    I might respect your conviction though, Enrique, if you were not such a huge bigot and racist.

    YES! BIGOT AND RACIST! Because out of two of us, ONE wants that EVERYONE plays with EXACTLY the same rules. And that is NOT you. You want preferential treatment for foreigners, I on other hand do not care if person is Finn or foreigner, if they fulfill SAME requirements. Never giving any preferential treatment to either one, not single inch.

    Yes, to live and prosper in Finnish society two of those requirements are being able to communicate both in terms of speech and behavior. But that is part of essential skills in living in any society.

    When in Rome, do as Romans do or accept that they never accept you as one of them.
    And if you are not one of them, do not expect to be treated like one.

    So you see Enrique, out of two of us, you are bigger racist.

    • Enrique

      –So you see Enrique, out of two of us, you are bigger racist.

      Wow, Tiwaz, calling me a racist is like, say, calling the Jews who died in concentration camps SS officers. If you want people to hear your arguments, you cannot club them with one hand and offer them roses with another. You state that immigrants must do this or that but then you state they are a bunch of imbeciles if they don’t follow your rules, which you claim is the voice of Finns.

      Tone down your voice and let’s see some respect. Without it you will fail and end up talking to a wall or, maybe, to yourself in the mirror.

      Do you know what racism is? Do you know what discrimination is? Do you know how it screws people and makes them have a very bad day? Have you ever thought how much a society loses when its more into racism than finding synergies and harmony between peoples? I have seen and lived in societies made of many cultures I am one of their products and damn proud of it.

  17. xyz

    No? Well that is the answer! Your inability to communicate is your failure to get a job!
    -I didn’t meet any Finn who was not able to speak any English.
    -Then there are my friends who work in other countries where they can’t speak the local language.

    How about you trying to get your job in Ireland if you did NOT speak any English. Do you honestly think you would have it?
    -Sorry to say but I think most of the people start learning English in school when they are 10 or so. You can’t tell me that Finns are not able to understand me. I communicate daily with them on Facebook and email. Why do they communicate with me if they only want to speak Finnish?

    When in Rome, do as Romans do or accept that they never accept you as one of them.
    -Rome was 1500 years ago

    Model which turned agrarian society to leading high-tech nation in few generations. Show me when multiculturalist society can pull it off. It can’t, because such radical change requires unity in people. Unity which cannot be achieved with multiculturalism.
    -Do you think there are any other high-tech countries in this world? High-tech can also cause problems. Manual work disappear. And then do we still need to work in the future if everything is done by machines?

    You should see countries like companies. All big companies are multicultural. Why do they still exist if multiculturalism is a failure?

  18. Tiwaz

    -“Wow, Tiwaz, calling me a racist is like, say, calling the Jews who died in concentration camps SS officers. If you want people to hear your arguments, you cannot club them with one hand and offer them roses with another. You state that immigrants must do this or that but then you state they are a bunch of imbeciles if they don’t follow your rules, which you claim is the voice of Finns. ”

    If they are told that to achieve X you have to do Y, then fail to do that and start whining that you do not achieve X… What it makes you?

    That’s right! An IDIOT!

    -“Do you know what racism is? Do you know what discrimination is? Do you know how it screws people and makes them have a very bad day? Have you ever thought how much a society loses when its more into racism than finding synergies and harmony between peoples? I have seen and lived in societies made of many cultures I am one of their products and damn proud of it.”

    Yes, racism is what you spew out every time you try to blame failures of immigrants on Finns and Finland.

    Do you know what makes harmony and synergy? Not multiculturalism.
    No, one culture which unites people.

    Perhaps you are product of multiculturalism. It does not mean it would be good system, as many people even here have admitted. We have had already one person admit that after reading here the reality of multiculturalism, he has started to reconsider if it is a bliss you try to claim it to be.

    -“No? Well that is the answer! Your inability to communicate is your failure to get a job!
    -I didn’t meet any Finn who was not able to speak any English.”

    So you think they should appease your foreign ass and do something they prefer NOT to do?

    You are very arrogant here presuming that your failure to learn languags should mean that Finns have to appease you in their native land.

    -“-Then there are my friends who work in other countries where they can’t speak the local language.”

    So what? This is again the idiotic “everyone is doing it”-argument. Apparently if enough people jump off the bridge, you are lamb enough to follow suit.

    I prefer to do the smart thing, not what everyone else does.

    -“Rome was 1500 years ago”
    And yet it is system which has shaped the very world we live in. Are you aware for example what R in SPQR was?

    -“Do you think there are any other high-tech countries in this world? High-tech can also cause problems. Manual work disappear. And then do we still need to work in the future if everything is done by machines?”

    Either you progress, or you lose. Manual simple labor is simply not viable for first world. We must progress to level of technology where cheap sweatshops for Asia cannot compete. There are no alternatives.

    -“You should see countries like companies. All big companies are multicultural. Why do they still exist if multiculturalism is a failure?”

    Do you actually have any idea what big company is like?

    They are NEVER multicultural. They have ONE CORPORATE CULTURE which is applied to EVERYONE.
    Corporations are as far from multicultural as they can be, they instead repress ALL cultures to ensure that cultural conflict is minimized in the system.

    You really should learn what you are talking about before showing your lack of knowledge.

    Because you just proved that multiculturalism does not work, since corporations avoid it like plague.
    They do not want to promote system where different parts of system keep clashing, which is basic idea of multiculturalism. They want fucntional system, which is why corporations have their own rules which trample all cultural notions workers might have.

    Corporations cannot have one of their latino managers coming to meeting “manana” or late. Corporate culture instead beats into head of that manager that his own personal cultural notion of being on time is secondary to corporate expectation of everyone being in time.

    That is why corporations work, they resent multiculturalism.

  19. Tuomas

    Tiwaz, I think you misunderstood what xyz meant there. (could be on purpose, I suppose)

    I personally like to think the issue like this:
    Just like a company has a set of rules, a country has its laws. You can then see some similarity between a “multicultural corporation” and a “multicultural society”.

    Each may have its own set of rules and duties (“Come to work and attend meetings on time, do your work, write weekly reports, etc”) vs (“Do not hurt people or steal, keep to the right side of the road, pay taxes”) but beyond those regulations either institution could not care less what ethnicity their employees or citizen are and how they live their private lives.

    • Enrique

      Hi Tuomas, a company that has a multicultural setting has en environment of general acceptance. This is not written anywhere but accepted by those that work there. It is not like the Center Party, which in many cases has a major attitude problem with immigration to Finland and with immigrants in Finland. It is a moralistic, provincial us-against-the-world view. As an example it is like Paavo Väyrynen, who was foreign minister during Kekkonen’s era. He is a good example of cold war Finland. The only reason why the cold war has not been thoroughly debated in this country is because all those taking part in the debate are basically of the same opinion. That is why diversity is important in Finland because it will bring different views of our history and society. This will strengthen our democracy and nation.

  20. Tiwaz

    Tuomas, I know perfectly well what xyz meant.
    As for private lives. Think again, in foreign countries corporate values steadily encroach into homes of employees as well.

    Employee, working or not, is specially in Asia seen as representative of company 24/7.

    Xyz himself thought he was clever pulling into game corporations. His, and I would guess yours as well, problem is that you do not grasp that corporations are smaller level operators than nations/societies.

    Nations need laws, indeed. Just like corporations have their rules.

    BUT… Nation is something you do not leave in the evening and go home. Because of this, societies which form nations have need for more rules than “mere” laws. They need rules which apply for interaction between people.

    This is where culture is essential. Culture defines in society what is good, what is bad, what is polite, what is not. How you address unknown person, how you address familiar person.

    Culture is huge set of unwritten and unspoken rules which are MORE important than laws. Because societies and culture have existed before laws were ever conceived, it is CULTURE which is essential for functionality of society. Without society, there will be no laws.

    Because of this, it is essential that there is no attempt of multiculturalism, as such system is failure due to it being unable to present single uniform set of principles according to which human to human interaction takes place.

    And xyz, you still have not grasped what I have told you…. Guess what it makes you…
    It starts with I and ends with T.

    If you had grasped what I told you, you would now have figured out that it is fucking irrelevant how people work in Arabic world. THIS IS NOT EMIRATES IDIOT! HERE WE HAVE _OUR_ RULES NOT ARAB EMIRATE ONES.

    How come foreigners are so stupid… It is so simple concept. This is not Arab Emirates, thus whatever they do there is irrelevant to Finland. Finland works Finnish way, Arab Emirates can bugger off.

  21. Tiwaz

    To sum it up…

    Societies cannot have laws which tell people how to behave when meeting one another. It would not work.

    Culture fills that void. It tells what is not acceptable, even if not punishable. Through following rules and principles of same culture, two people who do not know one another can establish functional interaction.

    Multiculturalists are idiots who do not grasp that this is the very foundation of society. They refuse to see plain reality, no two cultures are identical even remotely. Thus, no two cultures can interact perfectly.

    So, at least one person when two members of different cultures meet must yield their cultural tradition and act according to foreign culture.

    Else, result is in many cases conflict as what is considered accepted in one culture is absolutely forbidden in the other. Thus, cultures cannot coexist if both are to be valid in same place at same time.

    It is simple fact of life which multiculturalists try to ignore. And when it is ignored, result is something like Iraq or Yugoslavia with war, misery and death.

  22. xyz

    Well, I didn’t feel like misery and death here in Ireland or in the Arab Emirates. Maybe you watched too many war movies?

    I talked with some other foreigners here and they all told me that the cool thing here is the mentality and that there are so many different nationalities.

    Maybe you should give it a try? If you send me your CV I can forward it to our HR. But you need to change your attitude towards foreigners a bit 🙂

    Societies cannot have laws which tell people how to behave when meeting one another.
    -Well, I meet plenty of different people here and there seems to be no problem

    As for private lives. Think again, in foreign countries corporate values steadily encroach into homes of employees as well.
    -You must have big parties with your work colleagues at home. Lets say you work for an international company then you don’t make a big deal about those values as they are part of your daily life. They just become normal. My father always had business people from far east at home when I was young. They were really nice and I found it quite interesting.

    And xyz, you still have not grasped what I have told you…. Guess what it makes you…
    It starts with I and ends with T.
    -No idea what you mean but yeah I work in the IT sector 🙂

    How come foreigners are so stupid…
    -Most likely they are so stupid because you have this attitutes towards foreigners. Everybody who is not Finnish is stupid. So on this whole planet are only 5.000.000 intelligent people…:)

    Finland works Finnish way, Arab Emirates can bugger off.
    -You forgot Ireland…

    Nation is something you do not leave in the evening and go home.
    -But you go to an Italian Restaurant where Toni serves you the Pizza on Saturdays? What makes a good Pizza Restaurant? The atmosphere. That’s why people go there. Thats the advantage of multiculturalism. Life becomes spicy and you experience new stuff.

    You always talk about rules and regulations. Maybe you are just a person who needs them. Otherwise you get lost?!?

  23. Tiwaz

    -“Well, I didn’t feel like misery and death here in Ireland or in the Arab Emirates. Maybe you watched too many war movies?”

    Have you noticed that UK, much further down the multiculturalist road, is having serious internal problems. White flight is not just metaphor.

    As for Ireland… Again, how many of their immigrants cannot speak English?

    -“I talked with some other foreigners here and they all told me that the cool thing here is the mentality and that there are so many different nationalities. ”

    FOREIGNERS. Not NATIVES!

    Of course for foreigners it is fun when natives have their heads kicked. Natives rarely appriciate how their way of life is being destroyed.

    -“Well, I meet plenty of different people here and there seems to be no problem”

    How many of the people you meet are foreigners in your native country who flat out refuse to respect your culture, your language and your way of life?

    -“You must have big parties with your work colleagues at home. Lets say you work for an international company then you don’t make a big deal about those values as they are part of your daily life. They just become normal. My father always had business people from far east at home when I was young. They were really nice and I found it quite interesting.”

    Yes, you obey THEIR norms and adjust yourself to them.
    Same thing I expect from foreigners who want to immigrate to Finland.

    Learn Finnish cultural norms, live by them. Hell, out in privacy of your house feel free to act as foreign as you wish (within limitations of law) but outside act properly according to FINNISH culture.

    -“Most likely they are so stupid because you have this attitutes towards foreigners. Everybody who is not Finnish is stupid. So on this whole planet are only 5.000.000 intelligent people…:)”

    Actually, considering how Willie and Tony here have said the very same thing I have your point is moot.

    -“But you go to an Italian Restaurant where Toni serves you the Pizza on Saturdays? What makes a good Pizza Restaurant? The atmosphere. That’s why people go there. Thats the advantage of multiculturalism. Life becomes spicy and you experience new stuff.”

    I go to buy pizza if pizza is good. As for athmosphere. Fine as long as it does NOT violate ANY Finnish norms.

    I demand service in Finnish for one. If it does not violate Finnish norms, knock yourself out being as Italian as you want. If it does, do not expect me to treat you with anything but contempt. But, unlike racist multiculturalists, I would treat same way acting Finn with same contempt.

    -“You always talk about rules and regulations. Maybe you are just a person who needs them. Otherwise you get lost?!?”

    Perhaps you are an idiot who wants anarchy then. Because that is alternative.

    We need rules have society work. And they must be the same for everyone to keep it working.

    • Enrique

      –Yes, you obey THEIR norms and adjust yourself to them.Same thing I expect from foreigners who want to immigrate to Finland.

      Hey Tiwaz, are you a policeman or an NCO in the army? Your views of the world, 1+1=2, is very much like some people in the latter professions see society.

  24. xyz

    FOREIGNERS. Not NATIVES!
    -Well one of my best friend is native Irish and he has no problems with them. My landlord is Irish too and we watch TV every night here together.

    Of course for foreigners it is fun when natives have their heads kicked. Natives rarely appriciate how their way of life is being destroyed.
    -Natives here bought houses and they are renting them out to foreigners. So they profit from them.

    Learn Finnish cultural norms, live by them. Hell, out in privacy of your house feel free to act as foreign as you wish (within limitations of law) but outside act properly according to FINNISH culture.
    -I do what I want as long as it is not against the law. If I want to talk in the metro then I talk. If I talk Spanish outside then I talk Spanish. That’s not your Business and it’s not against any law. I hear 20 languages here everyday. And who cares? Nobody.

    I go to buy pizza if pizza is good. As for athmosphere. Fine as long as it does NOT violate ANY Finnish norms.
    -Come on…if I go to an Italian Restaurant I want to hear Italian Music, see Italian waiters and Italian behaviour…that makes a good Italian Restaurant.

    Perhaps you are an idiot who wants anarchy then. Because that is alternative.
    -No, I just follow the law.

    • Enrique

      xyz, don’t worry about Tiiwaz because he is one of a kind. Even Finns have a hard time following his thoughts.

  25. xyz

    Maybe thats a good point about integration. If you force people to behave 100% as the natives do then chances that they want to integrate is even lower.

    • Enrique

      Hi xyz, the problem with 100% forced assimilation is that it does not work. Certainly if you have a handful of minorities in society it is much easier to throw them into the melting pot. However, if you have about 10% of the population with immigrant backgrounds it is much harder. It is like stating that these people are “abnormal” and they should hide their faces from society – or get plastic surgery. There was a very good Italian comedy in the 1970s called Panne e cioccolata (Bread and Chocolate) about Italian immigrants moving to work in Switzerland. The main character of the movie dyed his hair blonde to look more like a Swiss. But he is uncovered and deported after he was found rooting for the Italian soccer team at a bar.

  26. Tuomas

    “Learn Finnish cultural norms, live by them. Hell, out in privacy of your house feel free to act as foreign as you wish (within limitations of law) but outside act properly according to FINNISH culture.”

    “I do what I want as long as it is not against the law. If I want to talk in the metro then I talk. If I talk Spanish outside then I talk Spanish. That’s not your Business and it’s not against any law. I hear 20 languages here everyday. And who cares? Nobody.”

    I don’t really think either if these opinions is one we should settle for. Like Enrique says constantly here, “respect is a two-way street”.

    I’m not defending Tiwaz and his “HURF DURF get those filthy foreigners outta MAH country!” arguments, or saying that you shouldn’t be able to speak your language wherever you want. But “I do whatever I want.” really isn’t the best way to behave around other people.

    Not everything we should or shouldn’t do is written down in books of law. Basic decency is something that is common to all cultures. That, however, doesn’t mean that every aspect of a culture is worth enforcing.

  27. Tiwaz

    -“I do what I want as long as it is not against the law. If I want to talk in the metro then I talk. If I talk Spanish outside then I talk Spanish. That’s not your Business and it’s not against any law. I hear 20 languages here everyday. And who cares? Nobody.”

    And you have right to do so, indeed. Except, you do NOT have right to whine when nobody hires you becaues you like an asshole keep speaking language nobody else understands.

    You do not have right to whine when that you are treated differently if you insist in not fitting in.

    -“Come on…if I go to an Italian Restaurant I want to hear Italian Music, see Italian waiters and Italian behaviour…that makes a good Italian Restaurant.”

    No, good food makes good restaurant.
    I expect my service to be in Finnish in Finland. I do not intend to start learning languages to order food in my native land so that some foreign asshole does not have to bother to learn my language.

    -“Hey Tiwaz, are you a policeman or an NCO in the army? Your views of the world, 1+1=2, is very much like some people in the latter professions see society.”

    Nope, I am an engineer. You see, by profession I work with facts.

    Fact is, multiculturalism is failure. You cannot support multiculturalism with facts, but you can oppose it with facts.

    Which means, multiculturalism is like communism. Failed idea which when attempted to apply to real world will result in failure.

    Because I love my country and way of life, I do not want such failures to hurt them.

    -“xyz, don’t worry about Tiiwaz because he is one of a kind. Even Finns have a hard time following his thoughts.”

    Actually Finns do not have hard time following my thoughts. Finns often do not dare to say that they agree with me, because whole debate on immigrants has been fucked up by people like you Enrique, who scream “racist!” every time someone does not fall in line and repeat like moron mantra “immigration is good”.

    You, on the other hand, are in forums I have visited considered to be somewhat a fool…

    By other immigrants.

  28. William O'Gorman

    So basically a country can only survive with one overlord culture. People who enter this land must adhere strictly and factually to this culture with no exceptions. Even the culture is so clearly and factually designed that even within that culture any deviation from the culture is not accpeted.
    Seems alot like Nazi talk again but hey this is the internet where people can openly be rude and disrespectful. I cant imagine anyone saying the things you, Tiwatz, have said here to somebody – face to face. I feel sorry for your anger and hate but at the same time that is your perogitive and you obviously love your country. However the fact is globalisation and immigration are facts for Finland. The sooner you come to terms with this the better.

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