MTV3 poll shows Finns do not want more refugees in their municipality

by , under All categories, Enrique

A survey published by MTV3 (in Finnish) on December 12 showed that the majority of those polled do not want their municipality to accept refugees. Even though 34% had no opinion on the matter, 46% said they were either against or very much against their municipality accepting new refugees. Only 20% were either in favor or very much in favor of accepting refugees.

Another question asked was whether the state should force municipalities to accept refugees. The responses were pretty clear: 70% said no, 16% maybe. 8% yes and 6% had no opinion.

Even though the recession is a factor that has forced Finns to have a more negative attitude of refugees,  one cannot place the full blame on the economic situation. Contrary to the recession of the early 1990s, when unemployment soared close to 20%, the jobless rate in October stood at 8.2% versus 5.8% a year ago, according to Statistics Finland.

In my opinion, these types of polls only reinforce old stereotypes of foreigners in general and refugees in particular in Finland. There are very few polls that show what immigrants and refugees think about living  in Finland and the impact of high unemployment and exclusion.

Even though the economic situation has got worse, some Finns use this as a pretext to justify their prejudice against refugees and immigrants. Such attitudes are, in my opinion, a failure of the education system and the fact that there are still very few refugees and immigrants living in the country.

  1. hannu

    Ah. Also prejudice against drunks and drug abusers is caused by failure of education…
    And they are also excluded and have high unemployment.

    • Enrique

      –Also prejudice against drunks and drug abusers is caused by failure of education…

      You are right. Even so, there is a difference between a person who has and one that does not have an addiction problem. The former is an illness that should be treated. A person with addiction problems is out of control due to his illness. You cannot compare it with a healthy immigrant that wants to work and make something out of himself in life.

  2. Tony Garcia

    This time I have to say, good post.

    However, a few comments…

    “Such attitudes are, in my opinion, …the fact that there are still very few refugees and immigrants living in the country.”

    I think the more refugees the worse the attitude, look at Sweden, last polls shows National Democrats getting support fast. The polls also clearly shows that the reason is people rejecting the government accepting so many asylum seekers.

    That brings me to another observation, when talking about attitudes and feelings that Finns have you can’t put together immigrants and asylum seekers. It’s very clear that Finns see those groups quite differently.

    And about education, where exactly is the education system failing? In educate Finns or preparing asylum seekers?

    And if we live in a democracy, and all indicates that the majority of Finns don’t want more asylum seekers, shouldn’t they be listened?

    • Enrique

      –I think the more refugees the worse the attitude, look at Sweden, last polls shows National Democrats getting support fast. The polls also clearly shows that the reason is people rejecting the government accepting so many asylum seekers.

      Hi Tony, I hope you had a restful weekend. Maybe so and it depends on whom you speak to. Countries such as the United States, where I grew up, did not have these kinds of issues although it was quite evident against blacks. There is a so-called social contact theory that states as people start to get to know each other and work together, they find more matters in common than against. Finnish attitudes towards foreigners may change when they notice that they are an asset not a liability to society.

    • Enrique

      –And about education, where exactly is the education system failing? In educate Finns or preparing asylum seekers?

      What I meant here is if there is so much hostility towards the visible migrants in Finland, then it shows two things: failure of the education system and the fact that there are too few foreigners in the country. Education, I believe, broadens one’s view of the world and should not narrow it. Those who cannot be with immigrants at schools or in the neighborhood lose out in my opinion. If we close our eyes we lose the opportunity to see new things. Some of those things are very beautiful as well as not so pleasant.

      –And if we live in a democracy, and all indicates that the majority of Finns don’t want more asylum seekers, shouldn’t they be listened?

      I agree but is an MTV3 poll representative of the popular will?

  3. Tiwaz

    -“Such attitudes are, in my opinion, a failure of the education system and the fact that there are still very few refugees and immigrants living in the country.”

    I must echo Tony here partially at least.

    Adding more immigrants/refugees will NOT make Finns like them any more.

    Piling crap on someones plate does not make it taste good no matter how much you try to force it someones throat.

    Such opinions in my opinion are result of too pampering attitude towards immigrants and refugees. As DeTant has noted, there is no such problem in Estonia because of absence of what he calls “disco-money”.

    -“You cannot compare it with a healthy immigrant that wants to work and make something out of himself in life.”

    Yes we can. Alcoholic does not want to change to fix his problem. Immigrant who just sits there wanting a job without putting in hours to learning skills necessary in Finland is very much the same way.

    Both either deny that THEY have a problem, or refuse to take action to correct it.

    • Enrique

      –Such opinions in my opinion are result of too pampering attitude towards immigrants and refugees. As DeTant has noted, there is no such problem in Estonia because of absence of what he calls “disco-money”.

      Yes, DeTant and you have overlooked 30% of the population in Estonia which are Russian-speakers. Vengeance is always a bad recipe to resolve matters. Estonia is demographically a bilingual country but the Estonians will have nothing of it. They are, therefore, sowing the seeds of future conflicts with their reticent attitudes.

  4. hannu

    “Those who cannot be with immigrants at schools or in the neighborhood lose out in my opinion.”

    😀

    If you are talking about those close minded sexist oppressors with all kind of restrictions i rather be withouth, if you talk about others i dont see anything to lose. Well if you as child go in school where 98% are immigrants you lose your motherlanguage. Thats in case in some swedish schools.

    • Enrique

      –Well if you as child go in school where 98% are immigrants you lose your motherlanguage.

      Maybe so, maybe not. I went to an elementary school in Hollywood where the majority were not from Los Angeles and were from different ethnic backgrounds (Armenians, Italians, Poles, USAmericans, Jews etc.) but we never suffered educationally. The quality of education has two factors: quality teachers and money. Think of how much a kid can benefit if he/she grew up with other kids from other cultures? Why are some parents so uptight about this in Finland?

  5. Tony Garcia

    “Some of those things are very beautiful as well as not so pleasant.”

    So, I’d then give up the beauty so I don’t have to deal with the unpleasant…

    “I agree but is an MTV3 poll representative of the popular will?”

    Of course not, that’s why I’ve always been for a popular vote on immigration and multiculturalism. If immigration is truly an asset and diversity really enrich, I’m sure you guys would be able to make your case in an open and fair debate.

    However, If things are not really the way you say…

    “Like Chinese and Japanese?”

    Or Brazilians?

    I think this “visible” immigrant theory has been debunked here many times, but…oh well…

    • Enrique

      –Of course not, that’s why I’ve always been for a popular vote on immigration and multiculturalism.

      Tony, by immigration you mean from non-EU countries but I do not understand your objection to multiculturalism. As you know, Finland is not officially a multicultural country. Do you mean by objection to multiculturalism mean scrapping Article 6 of the Constitution and the Non-Discriminatory Act?

  6. Tony Garcia

    And talking about why the attitude… How about this?

    From YLE: “The Finnish criminal law does not have a separate category for hate crimes, but a racist or discriminatory motive for a criminal act can bring a harsher sentence.”

    How to you think a father will feel about immigration when he sees that if a guy punches his son in the face should get less sentence then if he punches a Somali?

    I really would like to know what is the difference between if give a guy a punch because he’s black, or because he supports Assat, or because he tried to grab my wife’s arse?

    What’s the difference? Why then I should pay more if I do the first one?

    The way that Finnish people, and foreigners for that matter, could stop thinking that minorities are overprotected is stopping overprotecting them.

    The physical integrity, or private property of a Somali should not have more value than my, Enrique’s, Hannu’s or Twiza’s. Should it? Well no, but this is another incoherence from multicultural leftists. They use inequality to promote equality.

    Isn’t equality what you guys so much claim? So… let’s have it, shall we?

  7. Tony Garcia

    Common Enrique, what is your problem? I already answered this question many times…

    NNNNNOOOOOO, I think the Finnish laws and constitution should be preserved at any cost. Did I make myself clear this time? I honestly hope so.

    My problem starts and when multiculturalism try to disfigure these laws.

    First making a blind eye to what some groups are doing.

    Second overprotecting minorities as I wrote 4 comments above. My family’s physical integrity doesn’t have less value than a Somali, therefore a crime against us should be punished equally.

  8. Tony Garcia

    You know ideologies may be beautiful on a piece of paper however when it comes to real life things are different.

    So we live in a free and modern society, very well. But at the same time we should encourage diversity, so immigrants should practice their culture without restriction. I see…

    How about?

    A young girl goes to school. In there she is thought that she lives in a free country and she can marriage anyone she decides. Also she’s thought that her parents cultural background is an asset and she should accept and be proud of it.

    When she goes home she tells her father what she learned. So the father then, tells her that in their culture he is the one responsible to decide to whom she should marriage.

    There you go, what should the law protect? Her freedom or the parents rights to their culture?

    Who’s here trying to scrap our laws, values and constitution? No me for sure…

  9. Tiwaz

    -“Yes, DeTant and you have overlooked 30% of the population in Estonia which are Russian-speakers. Vengeance is always a bad recipe to resolve matters. Estonia is demographically a bilingual country but the Estonians will have nothing of it. They are, therefore, sowing the seeds of future conflicts with their reticent attitudes.”

    We were not talking about Russian minority, but immigrants. There are no immigrants lining up for Estonia because they are told to sink or swim.

    Those who go there know they have to learn to swim, so they are motivated. Or they are very skilled and employers try to ensure that they can float.

    No freeloaders and useless waste of space Finland is receiving in plentitude.

    As for Russian minority, that is another problem which proves YOUR point to be false. They have THIRTY FUCKING PERCENT of culturally alien population. By the logic you have been trying to advocate here, Estonia should be extremely multicultural and happy land because it has so huge amount of foreigners.

    Yet, they are suffering from division caused by this group.

    And now you say that Finland would be wonderful place if we imported more useless immigrants. Everything would magically be just fine if there just were more foreigners.

    Estonia has 30% foreigners and things in that respect are straight from hell over there.

    -“What I meant here is if there is so much hostility towards the visible migrants in Finland,”

    What hostility? Vietnamese, chinese, japanese… None of them support such claims. Alas, they adjust to society.

    Your biggest group who whine about hostility are those who are useless to this society and refuse to respect it’s values and traditions. The scum of immigrant population. If I were you, instead of pampering them I would try to distance myself from them.

    -“then it shows two things: failure of the education system and the fact that there are too few foreigners in the country.”

    Again load of bullshit. Again you blame NATION for failure of IMMIGRANTS. Those immigrants who learn Finnish, learn Finnish cultural traditions and respect them… They are not complaining by and large!

    Those who refuse to accept that things in Finland work the Finnish way are whiners.

    Failure is in immigrant end of court, not Finnish.

    -“Education, I believe, broadens one’s view of the world and should not narrow it.”

    So now refusing to have ones homeland reduced to miserable shithole is narrowmindedness?

    I have repeatedly said I have nothing against foreigners. I have plenty of foreign friends obtained over the years.

    But I do not tolerate or accept having Finland ruined so few idealist imbeciles could play kumbaya and pretend multiculturalism works. I owe that much to generations before me who worked hard to build this country into what it is and I owe it to my children so they have nice, safe and comfortable homeland to be born and live in.

    -“Those who cannot be with immigrants at schools or in the neighborhood lose out in my opinion.”

    So immigrants who try to pretend that Helsinki is Mogadishu are not losing anything and we should let them keep living as if they came from anarchist, medieval society while living in our safe, functional western society?

    How blind must man be to be able to not see how such equation is impossible?

    -“If we close our eyes we lose the opportunity to see new things. Some of those things are very beautiful as well as not so pleasant.”

    Guess what, if they have something they can offer can is beneficial for Finland and is not in conflict with existing Finnish culture… I have nothing against it!

    But problem is, you refuse to accept that Finns and Finland have right to expect our culture and tradition to be respected in our nation.

    I have repeated this many times, but apparently I still have to repeat it.

    If Finnish culture permits it, you have no right to deny it for others no matter what your culture says.
    If Finnish culture demands it, you have no right to demand others to not do it regardless of what your culture says.
    If Finnish culture denies it, you have no right to demand it to be accepted regardless of what your culture says.

    EVERY change to Finnish culture must fit with ALL aspects of existing culture. That is something you refuse to understand Enrique.

    Immigrants may have in their cultures aspects which might be better than aspects of Finnish culture from some point of view, but if those aspects are in conflict with other parts of Finnish culture they WILL NEVER BE ACCEPTED.

    That is what you and all other immigrants have to accept. Your cultural traditions must be changed to fit withing Finnish cultural framework if you intend to stay in Finland and prosper.

    It can be done. Sami have done it. Tatars have done it. Jews have done it. Swedes have done it.

    Why current immigrants cannot do it or should not be demanded to do so?

  10. Tony Garcia

    “It can be done. Sami have done it. Tatars have done it. Jews have done it. Swedes have done it.”

    Yep and all have succeeded, however Roma, who has been there for 500 years (is that right?), refuse to do it and guess what?

  11. Tony Garcia

    “Think of how much a kid can benefit if he/she grew up with other kids from other cultures?”

    Well if that is so, and also if immigration is an asset and diversity really enrich, what would we see from schools with large amount of immigrants?

    Quality and security, wouldn’t we? Well…

    In the UK (Sorry but Finland still doesn’t have this kind of example) schools with large amount of immigrants (Africans and Asians in particularly) are having very low academic achievement. About security? Well, some are already putting metal detector at the doors…

    “Why are some parents so uptight about this in Finland?”

    Because they love their children?

    • Enrique

      Tony, have you ever asked why chldren from African and Asian backgrounds have, as you call it, low academic achievement?

  12. hannu

    I thought about your “different ethnic backgrounds”. I were in school where there was only finns. Names like Hagelin, Gehör, Berg and Bergmann were quite common, also i know atleast one russian (some “…kov” as surname dont remember for sure, finnish forename) and one swede whom surname i dont remember. Were i in “multicultural” school?
    And my granmothers familyname was Berg somewhere before great namechange, am i “multicultural”?
    And for extra question, http://users.pelikaista.net/~onkko/m.jpg
    Tell me her ethnicity and nationality.

  13. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, have you ever asked why chldren from African and Asian backgrounds have, as you call it, low academic achievement?”

    Well… how should we called it?

    Although we quite know what the answer will be, let me ask it know…

    Tell us, why ethnic minority children have low academic achievement (or the politically correct equivalent)? And why schools with large amount of EM children have high index of violence and criminality?

    • Enrique

      –Tell us, why ethnic minority children have low academic achievement (or the politically correct equivalent)? And why schools with large amount of EM children have high index of violence and criminality?

      What you are doing here is stigmatizing a whole group. I have not seen any studies in Finland that show that one ethnic minority underachieves. The high violence and criminality comes from their social situation. You always mention Sweden as a bad example. I think they are not but if there are social problems they have a lot to do with society as a whole. Moreover, if you want to get into the finer points of teaching, certainly there are cultural, economic and other factors that come into play. That is why, in my opinion, that a society is receptive to other cultures, accepts them, and accommodates and takes them into consideration. The point were you and I disagree is pretty clear: you are in favor of assimilation while I am not.

  14. Tiwaz

    -“I have not seen any studies in Finland that show that one ethnic minority underachieves.”

    Because they are forced to learn like Finnish kids. They are not given any special treatment for “multiculturalism”.

    THAT is why they tend to do well.

    There is, however, one group which has heavy record of underachieving. Roma. And it is cultural. They just do not give a crap about studies of their kids and mothers apparently lack authority to make kids do their homework.

    -“I think they are not but if there are social problems they have a lot to do with society as a whole.”

    Sweden is example of failed immigrant policy and failure of multiculturalism. And you saying failure is in society is again short sighted.

    Sweden suffered very few of those problems when they did not try to embrace multiculturalist attitude. As long as they kept up principle of one country and one culture, their society ran rather well.

    It was when they started to accept all foreign cultures as equally valid that things started to go straight to hell.

    -“That is why, in my opinion, that a society is receptive to other cultures, accepts them, and accommodates and takes them into consideration.”

    And your opinion is false.
    Society you described is failure. It fails to create cohesion which is essential for prolonged existence of society.

    Accepting foreign cultures is equal to giving up yours, this is cultural suicide. If we look at all those “wonderful” cultures you so much want to see us embrace, do you notice something….

    NONE of those cultures tolerates other cultures in their domain. Go to Somalia, or Saudi Arabia or other society which produces criminals and rapists who “enrich” our society and preach to them about multiculturalism.

    Let’s see how accepting they are for that.

    Enrique, on some things there can be no soft stance, and preserving ones culture and society is one of those.

    I guess your kind of guy would suggest in 1939 that Finland should appease USSR and agree to border changes.
    In name of “friendship and trust” or some other BS like multiculturalism.

    If you look at history, you would understand that such option would be disastrous.

    If today we start tolerating and considering and appeasing foreigners, they preserve their culture and we lose ours. You might be willing and eager to see Finnish culture and way of life die out Enrique, but I damn sure am not.

    That is why I again recommend that you leave Finland. Go somewhere where multiculturalism has already had it’s opportunity to start spreading it’s rot. Do not try to bring that cancer to my home.

    • Enrique

      –Because they are forced to learn like Finnish kids. They are not given any special treatment for “multiculturalism”. THAT is why they tend to do well.

      That is a good point, Tiwaz. One that needs some study.

      –NONE of those cultures tolerates other cultures in their domain. Go to Somalia, or Saudi Arabia or other society which produces criminals and rapists who “enrich” our society and preach to them about multiculturalism.

      Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    • Enrique

      –Thats exactly what you have done in your posts.

      There is a difference when you say ALL Finns versus SOME Finns.

  15. Tony Garcia

    “What you are doing here is stigmatizing a whole group. I have not seen any studies in Finland that show that one ethnic minority underachieves.”

    Perhaps because nobody, In Finland, has done it yet?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/may/31/race.schools

    “three out of four African-Caribbean boys fail to reach the basic threshold of five or more good passes at GCSE, and there are twice as many black men in prison as there are at university.”

    “But alarmingly, among those boys who are better off, African-Caribbeans are twice as likely to fall below the threshold, indicating that the main cause of the performance differential is definitely not poverty.””

    “He goes on to say that “the simplistic argument” that underachieving black boys are the victims of the “racist attitudes” of white teachers does not account for the fact that Chinese and Indian children, who are just as likely to come from poor backgrounds and to face racism, typically do nearly three times as well as black boys.”

    • Enrique

      –“He goes on to say that “the simplistic argument” that underachieving black boys are the victims of the “racist attitudes” of white teachers does not account for the fact that Chinese and Indian children, who are just as likely to come from poor backgrounds and to face racism, typically do nearly three times as well as black boys.”

      Yes, maybe, but it does not prove that ethnic backgrouns correlates with IQ. If that were the case, we would have to rewrite our societies’ values and create a caste system. As we have spoken of high immigrant unemployment in Finland, the fault lies in a number of variables. I am certain that this is the reason why some ethnic groups are underachievers in certain countries.

  16. Tony Garcia

    Ok, let’s focus…

    First a fact that I presented here has been disputed. I think this dispute is over by now. I don’t present facts that I don’t have something to back it up. I DO substantiate my allegations.

    We can see, then, that your theory of “Finnish kids can benefit from grew up with other cultures” is very questionable, to say the least. I think that the opposite is far more accurate, foreigners kids benefit from sticking around with Finnish kids, having a more secure environment, better chances of academic achievement and learning western values.

    “Yes, maybe, but it does not prove that ethnic backgrouns correlates with IQ.”

    Nop it doesn’t, and you know my opinion about racial blaming. However I would urge you to be a bit careful when judging those statements. Theu were said by Trevor Phillips, so anyone here who doesn’t know you well enough as we do, could think that you are calling him a racist.

    No, ethnic background doesn’t correlates to IQ, but cultural background DOES correlates to academic/professional/social achievement, or success for that matter.

    No matter how good school you go, if when back home you are encourage to forget all this “western rubbish” and concentrate to be what you should be, well…

    • Enrique

      –We can see, then, that your theory of “Finnish kids can benefit from grew up with other cultures” is very questionable, to say the least.

      Let’s put it this way: both benefit.

    • Enrique

      –No, ethnic background doesn’t correlates to IQ, but cultural background DOES correlates to academic/professional/social achievement, or success for that matter.

      What you are saying, or implying, is the same thing. If i were born in one culture it means that I will grow up with a low IQ. However, who created the IQ test? Some of us would be in imbecile level if we had to solve problems in other societies.

  17. hannu

    “Yes, maybe, but it does not prove that ethnic backgrouns correlates with IQ.”

    Do you want to see studies what proves it does since you bring it up constantly?

    • Enrique

      –Do you want to see studies what proves it does since you bring it up constantly?

      Yes, please, show us.

  18. Tony Garcia

    I was just making a quick research about something else I wanted to say here (yes I research before make my points, so I can substantiate then when needed), and this article just came about.

    It’s a good example of what I said here before, that some of us (immigrants) believe that double-standards, protectionism and blind-eye isn’t really the way forward.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/unless-we-condemn-all-gang-violence-our-antiracism-is-a-sham-691615.html

    “White man kills a blackman, all hell breaks loose; black kills another black, it’s an embarrassment”

    “Mention the possibility that violence between ethnic minorities may be as bad as white racism against black, and that such conflicts have been denied too long, and the so-called “ethnic minority leaders” will accuse you of everything from ignorance to irresponsibility”

    • Enrique

      –It’s a good example of what I said here before, that some of us (immigrants) believe that double-standards, protectionism and blind-eye isn’t really the way forward.

      You mentioned in a previous comment that if a black man hits a white it is no big deal but the other way around it is. I think the law is pretty clear on this one. Could you be more specific on what you mean and we can investigate the matter further.

  19. Tony Garcia

    Hannu, that was brilliant. My wife loved, my favourite part is the sauna “bouncer”. But, me being me, I need to have a little say.

    So, here we have a bunch of Italians making fun of Finns. I know for sure that any Finn who sees that will have a laugh.

    We WON’T see A Finnish mob rioting on the streets of Milan or Rome, burning Italian flags, and shouting “behead the pizza makers” or “pasta go to hell” or even “Finland will dominate the world”. We just won’t see that.

    However…

  20. Tiwaz

    -“Two wrongs don’t make a right.”

    Are you aware that person who does not defend themselves ends up with nothing?

    That is why assault of foreign cultures must be met not with open arms and acceptance that they will run over our culture but firm and definite refusal to tolerate them doing so.

    Rape is not stopped by not resisting because “two wrongs don’t make right” but through as much resistance as possible.

    Rape is ended by sticking fingers deep into eyes of attacker and making it clear that their wrong is not tolerated and WILL be resisted by any means necessary.
    And by punishing those attempting this to act as deterrent for rest.

    Two wrongs might not do right, but neither does one wrong.

    So I prefer to do my wrong as well to maintain myself, my family and my culture.

    Pacifists and multiculturalists should head out to live under those wonderful cultures which “enrich” us and try how nice it would be if it was permitted to overrun our safe, stable and rather good system which exists here.

  21. Tony Garcia

    “What you are saying, or implying, is the same thing.”

    No isn’t. IQ is how much intelligence you have, cultural background, in many cases, dictates how you use this intelligence, if you use it at all, therefore dictating success in your life.

    I already gave the example of one of my workmates and his demands about sauna evening. He was, as far as I know, I good engineer, but his cultural background, and in particularly his insistence in rub it in our faces, made him very socially unsuccessful, at least in our team, God know where else.

    We can even use some extreme examples, Bilal Abdulla, the guy who tried to blow up the Glasgow airport is a doctor.

    So, two examples of people who have absorbed a great deal of knowledge. You can’t achieve that with low intelligence, but yet their cultural background played against them.

    “Some of us would be in imbecile level if we had to solve problems in other societies.”

    There you go, and in with society are we?

  22. Tony Garcia

    “You mentioned in a previous comment that if a black man hits a white it is no big deal but the other way around it is. I think the law is pretty clear on this one. Could you be more specific on what you mean and we can investigate the matter further.”

    I don’t know if I understood your question right, I’m sorry if I didn’t. What I meant is…

    First: Why a racist motive for a criminal act can bring a harsher sentence?
    Second: Why whites beating backs make far more noise than blacks beating blacks or whites?

    If we, the immigrants, really want to be treated equally in this society, we need to give the example and fight against this trend. If race doesn’t matter, so let’s stop making it matter.

    • Enrique

      Tony, I will answer your two questions:

      –Why a racist motive for a criminal act can bring a harsher sentence?

      Because it is unacceptable in our society and runs against our values as a society. But if a white or black person attacks another one due to racism it will receive a harsher sentence. Taking into account our history in Europe (see World War 2, former Yugoslavia, for example), we are sensitive about how racism can reap havoc in our societies.

      –Second: Why whites beating backs make far more noise than blacks beating blacks or whites? Only if the motive is racism. Otherwise, it is another sentence. This works both ways. If the white person can prove that racism was a factor, the black person can get a harsher sentence. There are good examples of discrmination in the Yhteenvertaisuuslaki (Equality Act) concerning what is discrmination.

      Section 17 – Right to one’s language and culture
      The national languages of Finland are Finnish and Swedish.
      The right of everyone to use his or her own language, either Finnish or Swedish, before courts of law and other
      3
      authorities, and to receive official documents in that language, shall be guaranteed by an Act. The public
      authorities shall provide for the cultural and societal needs of the Finnish-speaking and Swedish-speaking
      populations of the country on an equal basis.
      The Sami, as an indigenous people, as well as the Roma and other groups, have the right to maintain and develop
      their own language and culture. Provisions on the right of the Sami to use the Sami language before the
      authorities are laid down by an Act. The rights of persons using sign language and of persons in need of
      interpretation or translation aid owing to disability shall be guaranteed by an Act.

      Tony, if you disagree with this, then it means we have to change our constitution and laws. Equality is an important value upheld in Finland by Finns and by our society. It stands high in our laws. Equality means that all members irrespective of their background are entitled to it.

  23. Prometo

    Hey Enrique,

    You have another excellent post. I am amazed how you let Tiwaz vomit his garbage on your blog without editing or deleting his posts. Tiwaz has the option of going to the thousands of anti-foreigner blogs/threads in the Finnish language that exist online. Enrique, changing our society is going to be a slow and very difficulut process. The “native, ethnic supi suomalainen Finn” would rather as a group commit national suicide then have a “ulkomaalainen/mamu/n-word/barbarian/homosexually inclined” in their midst. Tiwaz will not change his ways because his parents taught him that non-Finns were not human beings and could not be Finnish when he was only a tiny baby. His parents taught him that non-Finns were trash. If he has kids, he is doing the same to his offspring, as our the other hundreds of thousands of “supisuomalais” Finns across this country. The Finns on whose behalf Tiwaz speaks for our modern day Nazi enthusiasts. They will never say these things in public, but amongst Finns, its what pushes their dry, retarded, drunken and monotonous conversation forward. I think that the only way to combat Tiwaz and this 4,999,999 other compatriots is to fight and change the barbaric country. Our country Finland is being held back by barbarians/barnyard animals like Tiwaz. Finnish people that have an immigrant background, such as you, myself and others, are a beacon of light and civilization that combats Tiwaz’s barbarism, backwardness and idiocy. Little by little, just like the fjords melting away in Norway, will Finland change. And that change will begin in the pk-seutu with all the ‘mamujat’ working harder then the Finns, and producing more for the common good.

    • Enrique

      Hi Prometo, thank you for sharing your views of this country with us. With respect to Tiwaz, I think his opinions mark and single him out. They show that other side of Finland which, I believe, has lost a lot of ground because society and life are not the way he may see it. The same view that Tiwaz had was what probably sent Finland to war against the Soviet Union and to ally itself with Nazi Germany in the Continuation War. They were huge mistakes that continue to shape some Finns’ world view even today. It is the petty provincialism marked by strong doses of bigotry. Taking into account our laws and Constitution, his views are very UNFinnish.

  24. Tony Garcia

    Your first point: I accept your opinion but I don’t agree. Simple.

    Second point:

    “If the white person can prove that racism was a factor, the black person can get a harsher sentence.”

    Yes, that is what the law says, but the way that PC brigade is forcing the system to patronize minorities, is that possible? Honestly? I doubt. Our laws are very good, the problem is the people enforcing them.

    “Only if the motive is racism. Otherwise, it is another sentence.”

    Well I don’t agree so, neither does Ms Alibhai-Brow, or Miss Hirsi Ali, or Ms Brigitte Gabriel, or Dr. Taj Hargey, to mention a few. I have posted comments from all these people. All believe the same, one way it makes nose the other is brushed under the rug. But once again, I still respect your opinion.

    And about the I’m, somehow, advocating for our laws to be changed, I have answered this question many times before, sorry I won’t do it again.

    “Equality means that ALL members IRRESPECTIVE of their background are entitled to it.”

    Amen.

    • Enrique

      Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is an outspoken critic of secularism and who has been accused by conservatives for her political correctness. I saw the video you once posted on Hirsi Ali, Brigitte Gabriel is a well known Christian Lebanese who speaks out against the Muslims and how it makes them into backward people. Don’t you think that colonialism and the industrialized world’s lust for oil has been happy to keep these countries backwards? Look at what they tried to promote in Iran with the Shah and look at what the country is today… But a Christian like Gabriel speaking to the West about how Mulsim societies are backwards sure creates a good bridge of understanding. It is like a radical Imam telling how corrupt the West is.
      The problem with these arguments is in my opinion that we include everyone without taking into account exceptions. It is cool for some today to be anti-Mulsim. It means military spending, fame and a five minutes under the spotlight of fame.
      That is why it is why strong societies with liberal institutions will help to create cohesion in society tomorrow. If you start implementing anti-democratic laws that run against our society, you will end up sowing the seeds of your downfall. In Latin America, I believe that this century we will see indigenous groups as well as other Latin Americans rising and claiming their long-overdue rights. Look at Finnish society today and in the 1930s. It is pretty clear that social justice is the key to peace and harmony.

    • Enrique

      Thank you for posting this. However, I don’t buy this conspiracy theory that some dark forces are not investigating this or that the courts are playing dumb on a certain issue. That is not how our democratic system works. If we would do these things, it would be the same as shooting ourselves in the leg.

  25. hannu

    “The same view that Tiwaz had was what probably sent Finland to war against the Soviet Union and to ally itself with Nazi Germany in the Continuation War. They were huge mistakes that continue to shape some Finns’ world view even today. It is the petty provincialism marked by strong doses of bigotry.”

    Or maybe the fact that ussr already tried twice to get finland and started 3rd try. That “petty provincialism” is why also you can live in Finland instead of Grand Duchy of Finland…

    • Enrique

      –Or maybe the fact that ussr already tried twice to get finland and started 3rd try. That “petty provincialism” is why also you can live in Finland instead of Grand Duchy of Finland…

      In first place I am not defending the USSR. But read history and ask some questions: Why did Finland join Barbarossa? Why did Finland align itself with Nazi Germany? What was Hitler doing in Finland on June 4, 1942? Why was Heinrich Himmler so impressed by what he saw when he walked the streets of Finland? Even during the Cold War Finland swings into other extremes with Moscow. Things, fortunately, are totally better now.

  26. Tony Garcia

    “ Only if the motive is racism. Otherwise, it is another sentence. This works both ways”

    This idea is so factual incorrect. Double-standards towards minorities is so blatant and it’s happening in some many levels that even liberals are starting to complain about.

    Here is what Friedman had to say about one aspects of this.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/opinion/16friedman.html?_r=1

    “What is really scary is that this violent, jihadist minority seems to enjoy the most “legitimacy” in the Muslim world today. Few political and religious leaders dare to speak out against them in public. Secular Arab leaders wink at these groups, telling them: “We’ll arrest if you do it to us, but if you leave us alone and do it elsewhere, no problem.””

    “How many fatwas — religious edicts — have been issued by the leading bodies of Islam against Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda? Very few. Where was the outrage last week when, on the very day that Iraq’s Parliament agreed on a formula to hold free and fair multiparty elections — unprecedented in Iraq’s modern history — five explosions set off by suicide bombers hit ministries, a university and Baghdad’s Institute of Fine Arts, killing at least 127 people and wounding more than 400, many of them kids?”

    “Not only was there no meaningful condemnation emerging from the Muslim world — which was primarily focused on resisting Switzerland’s ban on new mosque minarets — there was barely a peep coming out of Washington. President Obama expressed no public outrage. It is time he did. “

    “A corrosive mind-set has taken hold since 9/11. It says that Arabs and Muslims are only objects, never responsible for anything in their world, and we are the only subjects, responsible for everything that happens in their world. We infantilize them.”

    • Enrique

      Tony, if you want to read good journalism look at the New York Review of Books. It has long articles and was one of the few publications during the Bush administration that were not swept by the hysteria and near-sightedness. This article may state a lot of good things but it forgets one of the most important: How the West incited and gave back Jihadists their self-respect. These types of fanatics should put up a picture of Bush on their walls and thank him. If you look at what nationalism, hubris and plain stupidity did after 9/11, study Bush’s administration. Everything they aimed to accomplish backfired. Can you imagine that some countries have the right to invade others, destroy their country, kill their relatives and friends, and then everybody should be thankful for “liberating” them? Military might won’t do it. The longer the West stays in Afghanistan and seeks a military solution the stronger the Jihadists will get. It’s the same thing if a Muslim army came to Europe and tried to teach us their way of life. You should know that home is sweet home no matter how it looks.

  27. hannu

    “A corrosive mind-set has taken hold since 9/11. It says that Arabs and Muslims are only objects, never responsible for anything in their world, and we are the only subjects, responsible for everything that happens in their world. We infantilize them.”

    You may be interested this also. http://hommaforum.org/index.php/topic,19459.msg271985.html#msg271985

    “If you have a problem as a Muslim, you are not raised to think, ”What am I doing wrong since I always end up in trouble?” In the Muslim culture you look outside yourself: ”Who did this to me or my life?”

    With this way of thinking you always see ourself as the victim and somebody or something outside yourself as the cause of your problems. Bernard Lewis, the famous professor in Islamic history, has observed the same cultural difference. In his words Westerners asks themselves, ”What did I do wrong?” and Muslims asks, ”Who did this to me?”

    Therefore many Muslims do not think that they create the problems. And talking about a person’s problems with somebody who thinks that everything is everybody else’s fault is not easy…”

  28. hannu

    “It is like a radical Imam telling how corrupt the West is.”

    Brigitte Gabriel is a priest? You should correct wikipedia page what says she is journalist…

    • Enrique

      I did not say she is a priest. Look at the example: a Christian telling how ALL Muslim societies are backward as an Imam stating that ALL Western societies are decadent.

  29. hannu

    “Why did Finland join Barbarossa? Why did Finland align itself with Nazi Germany? What was Hitler doing in Finland on June 4, 1942? Why was Heinrich Himmler so impressed by what he saw when he walked the streets of Finland?”

    It didnt. There was no one else to help. Visiting? Because he liked what he saw?

    • Enrique

      Maybe he did, but I think Finland did have a choice in 1941. The fact that we say it did not is synonymous to not looking at history seriously. Future historians will tell us many revealing things about the Continuation War. Don’t you think it is strange that there are still so many unanswered questions from that war? Even though the Soviet Union was a tyranny run by Stalin, the forces of hatred, suspicion and revenge caused a big mistake that we are still paying today. The Winter War was, however, another story.

  30. hannu

    “I did not say she is a priest. Look at the example: a Christian telling how ALL Muslim societies are backward as an Imam stating that ALL Western societies are decadent.”

    Well im probably christian too, i was born in christian family… IMAM IS A MUSLIM PRIEST. There is quite big difference if priest is saying or journalist is saying and bring religion to cause what one says.

  31. hannu

    “but I think Finland did have a choice in 1941”

    Choise was made loud and clear, finland would not do anything or allow germans attack thru it if russia dont attack. Russia attacked as it planned what was seen by how it placed it troop.

    • Enrique

      –Choise was made loud and clear, finland would not do anything or allow germans attack thru it if russia dont attack. Russia attacked as it planned what was seen by how it placed it troop.

      I think you should read history a bit closely. It was Finland’s collusion with the Germans that caused us to get mixed up in the war.

  32. hannu

    I should?
    Well lets say this way, you have angry aggressive neighbour who is known as aggressive and willing to take your home.
    You have 2 possibilities, either accept help from your other neighbour or someone from next neighbourhood.
    What you would choose?
    We just couldnt get any else than Russian or Germans help if we wouldnt accept German help, how that sounds?
    And withouth help… tell me about screwed.

    And russia had ready plans to conguer finland and what to do after that, send whites to be shot or in to siberia, that was how russia planned finnish future and thank god we didnt take a change.

    If we would have fight with russia we would have been annexed as whatever name russians would have invented and many of finns would have shot or transferred.

    Fighting with english or others was impossible since our location, we would have been invaded by germans and after/in war by russians… look last part what would have happened then.

    • Enrique

      This is debatable. However, thanks to the possible entry of Britain and France in the war against the Soviet Union in favor of Finland, played a key role in getting Stalin to sign a peace agreement. We backed the wrong country. Even so, we must have done so because we felt certain affinity to the Germans.

  33. hannu

    France and england couldnt deliver enough and/or soon enough to help us. So meaningless. There would have been “peace” before they would have get even fraction of armament or mans near our border.

    Real reason is Hitlers ultimatum that you have to get peace.

    • Enrique

      –Real reason is Hitlers ultimatum that you have to get peace.

      Stalin’s great fear during the closing weeks of the Winter War was going to war with England and France. That would have changed the course of history. But being a ruthless dictator and survivor, he bit the bullet and decided on an armistice with Finland. Even though Finland fought heroically against the Red Army, it is a myth that Finland was totally isolated and alone when facing the former Soviet Union. Thanks to this type of diplomatic pressure, it helped Finland survive the Winter War.

  34. willie

    Wait a second. Every time a black kid kicked my ass in high school it was a hate crime? And every time I smacked up a black kid or an asian kid or a Mexican kid in high school it was because I was a racist? Even though my best friends were Mexican, black, and asian? It had nothing to do with the fact that we were kids in school – teenagers with hormones raging, trying to flex our developing muscles and egos? Shit. Besides the fact that I have almost every possible race in the world in my personal family due to blood or marriage I am most likely the perpetrator of a “racially motivated violent crime” according to PC standards.

    I can say right now, that this immigrant doesn’t want any more refugees in my municipality. Why? I’m sick and tired of having to defend myself because of their actions. I work, pay taxes, participate in the basic functions of Finnish society and do not demand special treatment. But these refugee motherfuckers just take up space, resources, whine about not having a chance, and then occasionally fuck up big time (when is the last time you’ve heard of a group of Finns dragging a woman into the bushes in park, getting caught with a kilo of uncut heroin, or trafficking in humans?). If I had a choice between a refugee neighbor and a worthless Finnish drunk for a neighbor I’d take the Finnish drunk, because then at least I would know that it would only take 2 months for the talonyhtiö to kick the Finnish drunk out. With refugees you have to worry about being branded a “racist” if you complain about them.

    By the way, Enrique,playing the Continuation War “what if” card is bullshit. Finland did what Finland had to do and the result is that Finland had soft toilet paper and double-glazed windows before anybody else in the Soviet Bloc.

    My opinion probably doesn’t matter though, since I am guilty of “hate crimes”.

    • Enrique

      –I can say right now, that this immigrant doesn’t want any more refugees in my municipality. Why? I’m sick and tired of having to defend myself because of their actions. I work, pay taxes, participate in the basic functions of Finnish society and do not demand special treatment.

      Hi Willie, I hope you are well. Even though what you do is normal in our society, what makes you think that refugees get a free ride? In first place they come from war-torn countries, personal lives shattered and living in a country were there future is uncertain due to high unemployment and, depending on the color of their skin or background, will bare the brunt of discrimination. Even though we cannot generalize, do you call that special treatment?

      It is funny that you call yourself an “immigrant” even though, legally, you are not. You might feel like one but because of your Finnish ancestry you are not seen that way legally.

      “Refugee motherfuckers?!”

  35. Tiwaz

    -“Hi Prometo, thank you for sharing your views of this country with us.”

    You are aware that his post might be product of satire/sarcasm?
    Hopefully. Because alternative that he believes the bullshit he wrote is just depressing.

    -“With respect to Tiwaz, I think his opinions mark and single him out.”

    Me and rest of 5 million Finns as Promento said. At least I have lots of company in my loneliness.

    -“They show that other side of Finland which, I believe, has lost a lot of ground because society and life are not the way he may see it.”

    Actually, have you ever bothered to go outside your house?

    Side of Finland which I speak of is everywhere around that little bubble you live in. It is Finland which still works, despite the best efforts of multiculturalists to ruin Finland.

    -“The same view that Tiwaz had was what probably sent Finland to war against the Soviet Union and to ally itself with Nazi Germany in the Continuation War.”

    Yes, self preservation. That nasty thing which has managed to keep our species alive for millenias.

    Without rest of us working to shelter your kind of people from your bad choices, you would die out because
    you apparently have managed to lose that self preservation drive.

    -“They were huge mistakes that continue to shape some Finns’ world view even today.”

    Yes, it is mistake to fight to keep your country and want to preserve it and your way of life.

    I guess that is the American (south or norht) speaking who wants natives to go quietly to their deaths.

    -“It is the petty provincialism marked by strong doses of bigotry. Taking into account our laws and Constitution, his views are very UNFinnish.”

    And you, foreigner, think you have any say on what is Finnish?

    Our laws protect your right to be foreigner, but they do not grant you preferential treatment you desire.

    It is YOUR view which is unFinnish, because you demand preferential treatment which is firmly against principle of Finnish equality.

    It is your delusion that immigrants who cannot do a job being unemployed is because Finns are bigots instead of accepting reality that immigrants who can’t get a job are usually ones who have no skills to do job properly.

    If they learned skills, they would get jobs. But that is against your desire to perform “Americanization” of Finland, destroying native culture and society and replacing it with horrible combination of failed cultures and societies which fail to work together.

    -“I think you should read history a bit closely. It was Finland’s collusion with the Germans that caused us to get mixed up in the war.”

    Idiots response, sorry.

    It was Soviet desire for regaining “lost” lands which caused Finland to end up in the war. Stalin only settled to less than 100% of Finland because it had become obvious that prolonged war had potential to cause more harm than gain.

    If Finns had bent over like Estonians, you would NOT have moved here when you did, because we would still have been miserable little piece of glorious multicultural USSR, most of Finns being dead or deported and Finland having huge Russian population who would today be making huge demands for appeasement.

    Without Finland fighting for it’s existence, things would be far worse for everyone.

    You should read history more carefully Enrique. Soviets were going to attack Finland no matter what. In fact, when Soviets attacked in 1939 they were ALLIES with Germany. So there is something for you to chew on.

    As for Continuation war… Apparently it escapes your grasp how significant the lost areas were for Finland.

    Look at the map and feel stupid Enrique…

    Soviets after Winter war took major city , only easily defended terrain against further Soviet aggression and what was massively important agricultural area for Finland.

    Of course Finland wanted them back!

  36. Tony Garcia

    Well Enrique, what can I say?

    I present a score of people from very different backgrounds, Christians, Muslims, Europeans, Asians, White, Blacks, Liberals and even an Imam. All share the same opinion, we are overprotecting minorities and that’s not right. Furthermore all give their opinions on the record, not behind aliases or anonymity. For me that counts.

    BTW, I decided not to post some of Lou Dobbs comments, I thought it would be too much for you to cope with…

    But as you said before, you won’t lower your guard, fair enough. As Dennis Prager says so eloquently, “be on the left means you never have to say sorry”.

    However I still have the feeling that some job is being done. You blog is very well visited. I think many people will read the comments as well, so IMHO all our effort here have achieved two goals:

    First, those Finns who believe that multiculturalism destroy will have their believes strengthen, not by ideologies but by facts.

    Second, some (unfortunately not all) Finns who would be willing to accept that maybe diversity really enrich, will think twice, and that is only what I ask from them.

    And that, my friend is what this is all about. Create a solid base to turn on the heating on politicians. Have look how much Thor has backed off since the alien act has passed. And yesterday Stubb said yes to the Finnish people and no to terrorists.

    Maybe I’m a fool, maybe our Malmo it’s on the way, I don’t know, but HS have posted an article some weeks ago saying that most young Somalis wish to leave Finland.

    So, maybe with some incentive and the right amount of pressure things can improve. We’ll see…

    • Enrique

      –All share the same opinion, we are overprotecting minorities and that’s not right. Furthermore all give their opinions on the record, not behind aliases or anonymity. For me that counts.

      When you speak of “overprotection of minorities” I think here is were the difference is. Are you overprotecting them because you are guaranteeing the same rights than what you have under the law? One of the pillars of our society is religious freedom and the thought. It does not mean that only your group is entitled to it but all members/groups of society. This ideal, or liberalism, which has its roots in the Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century, is what inspired the United States’ constitution and the French Revolution. So, Tony, when you speak of “overprotection” I understand it as denial of minorities of their basic rights in our society. Have I misinterpreted you?

  37. willie

    -“It is funny that you call yourself an “immigrant” even though, legally, you are not. You might feel like one but because of your Finnish ancestry you are not seen that way legally.”

    Hey Enrique. Yes I am well. Thanks. A bit on the chilly side maybe, but thats another story. And actually, legally I am an immmigrant. I just received my pysyvä oleskelulupa. I had to go through the same program as everyone else because my Finnish heritage was not recent enough. Some of my great-grandparents came from Finland. My grandparents died before the dual-citizenship law came into affect, so they were never Finnish citizens. I faced the same challenges as anyone else when I moved here. My Finnish wasn’t so great either, in fact I spoke a nearly dead dialect of Fingelska which mainly made people here laugh or stare in amazement every time that I opened my mouth. I recently took the YKI language exam (4 years after I officially immigrated (ie: got my first temporary residence permit) and got good enough results to apply for citizenship, which I have done.

    -“Refugee motherfuckers?!”

    I thought it fit this English language discussion board a little better than “vitun pakolaiset”.

    I understand that most refugees are from war-torn regions, that life where they are from is hard. But life is hard in general. You’d think that someone who has fled a messed up place would realize that when they are in a truly nice place that maybe they should make an extra effort to fit in with the host culture.

    I used to joke that I was a refugee from Bushistan. Now that he is no longer president the joke has lost some of its punch, but the truth is that when I got to Finland I truly felt like I had arrived to a paradise after years of witnessing a moron gut the school systems, infrastructure, and social security systems of nearly all funding while his truly evil vice president made millions off of the war. I recognized that I had arrived to a good place and made the extra effort to become a part of Finnish society. I could have easily hung out with native English speakers exclusively, or spoken only English with Finnish people, but I chose not to. I went out of my way to learn the language and the culture. I still learn something every day. I’m just asking that other foreigners (refugees included) try and do the same.

    • Enrique

      That’s pretty interesting what you say about your heritage.

      –You’d think that someone who has fled a messed up place would realize that when they are in a truly nice place that maybe they should make an extra effort to fit in with the host culture.

      Why do you think the contrary? There are not a lot of refugees making such claims in this blog except for some who want to raise some questions. If you ask my opinion, I think a lot of refugees and immigrants think like you because they are trying to survive in a country where jobs are scarce. Their is a lot of competition. So, if you are stating that they are not grateful I think you are wrong. Certainly there are all types, but most of them are happy that they made it here alive. As you know, man and woman does not live by bread alone.

      And if they do raise their voice, it’s their exercise of democracy and good at that because that is how we debate things in our society. That, too, is a learning process.

  38. willie

    -“Do you think your effort has paid off?”

    Of course. I have great Finnish friends who are like family to me. When I read the paper or watch the news in Finnish I understand what is going on. When dealing with bureaucrats I not only am able to handle my own business – I understand that it is a bureaucracy and that if I am denied something or made to wait it isn’t racism or xenophobia – everyone has to deal with these paperpushers in Finland.

    Through my efforts I feels as though as I am a part of something here. Somethings mystify me, like why aspirin is only available from the apteekki, why stores are closed on certain flag days, etc, but I also realize that this is how things are done here. I am not trying to force U.S. laws and customs on my host country. Spanking is legal in the U.S., illegal in Finland. Should I as a U.S. citizen have the right to spank my child in Finland because thats what we do where I am from? No. Should I be given a special privilege to spank my child because I am foreign born? Absolutely not.

  39. hannu

    Willie is kind of immigrant most of people accept and what many multiculturalist think when they talk about immigration. Harmless productive member of society.
    Well he may want drink coke, have thanksgiving turkey and santa drops present in socks or under tree instead of visiting but thats harmless. Well according to his blog, what made me few days ago to buy some muikku, i doubt about that coke thing 🙂

    Offtopic but to willie, if your wife is finnish then you should consider speaking only english to your child to make him/her bilingual. Being “native fluent” in atleast spoken english is valuable thing today and one of greatest gifts you can give to your child. Theres thread about bilingual kids in finlandforum and of course all over net.
    http://www.finlandforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=36974 heres thread.

  40. hannu

    I cant sit next to you because culture. I cant swim with you because you arent finn. I cant handshake you because culture. I cant travel with you you because culture. I cant eat that food because culture. I can lie to you because you arent finn. You are less than us because you arent finn.

    Thats what i heard, literally heard, from few groups of those nice immigrants. Sounds nice and grateful?

  41. DeTant Blomhat

    Well, sorry to piss into your cheerios but I’d like to go back to the original poll.

    The problem there is “refugees” is a blanket term used there. The people in the counties probably lump in “asylum seekers” and people getting a “residence permit on humanitarian grounds” as well as “anchor children”.

    Now *if* we were talking about “refugees” which is either a “quota refugee” from UNCHR camps or one of the 2% of the “asylum seekers” that actually meet up with the proper refugee status, I don’t think there would be any problem. Of course the money the government allocates to the counties has last been tied to any index in the 90’s which they are objecting to – costs of rehabilitation etc. are higher and at the current huge “demand of workers” do they want any more unemployeds into the county than there already is – remembering the refugees need more resources in all fields to make them integrated.

    And as we speak about money we talk about resources. And resources is what is lacking. Theres been a number of asylum centres been established around the country, all of which are now jampacked with the 2% of refugees people ranging from disco-money seekers who already have an asylum in some other country to Romanian roma who are on an EU free movement holiday. Again, as the money and resources are lacking it takes even in clear cases months to come to a decision. Meanwhile some of these centres have caused unwanted disturbances in the small towns and the people are understandably pissed off. And the county has to spend money to provide for the asylum seekers, so that is actually out of the refugees’ pocket.

    Add to this then an underaged or “underaged” child who gets a residence permit and “collects his family” tha county doesn’t have one refugee to take care of, there is a family all of a sudden with different needs than planned for – and more resources called for.

    Now calculating all the enrichement together, I am not surprised at all the counties are saying no. They want more money out of the Governments’ magic wall first.

    • Enrique

      –Well, sorry to piss into your cheerios but I’d like to go back to the original poll.

      Sorry, Hank, but I don’t eat cheerios and you aren’t that good of a shot from where you are :). Thank you anyway for your points of view on the matter, which I am sure some will agree with you. wonder how they are taking it in Norway and Sweden where there are more asylum-seekers.

      –How about educating the foreigners on how to behave?

      I really think that this statement is the mother of stereotypes that you have made. Most immigrants (I am probably a minority) are on the conservative scale many miles right of you. Like you, they probably did not grew up in liberal societies but came from very conservative ones. Many, I suspect, only want a job, adapt and get on with their lives. It is that simple but then again, in Finland, it isn’t. This would make a fascinating study to see if most immigrants think very conservatively. It would be something new and valuable instead of those always-dumb stereotypic polls that ask the same dumb questions: do you want refugees in your backyard?

  42. DeTant Blomhat

    And Enrique – I think it is the counties who never have had any refugees or asylum centres the most eager to get them. The ones who have them do not want any more. Does that say something about “prejudices” vs. “having firsthand experiences”. How about educating the foreigners on how to behave?

  43. willie

    -“those always-dumb stereotypic polls that ask the same dumb questions: do you want refugees in your backyard?”

    do you? honestly? do you really want your kids to be in the same school as kids who are likely to fail? of course there are success stories, but those are rare compared to the tragedies, and the even more common pathetic realities. lets not beat around the bush – most of us (who participate in your discussion club) don’t live in the pseudo-ghetto finnish suburbs or even in the perusduunari parts of town. in fact enrique, i’m willing to bet that most of your neighbors earn way more than you, in other words, you are not starving or lacking of basic luxuries. but if you were actually on the riskiraja, would you truly want neighors who are sure to bring the property values and quality of service down a notch? wouldn’t the basic finnish sossupummi jerkwads already be enough for you?

    • Enrique

      –do you? honestly? do you really want your kids to be in the same school as kids who are likely to fail?

      One of the reasons why students at such schools fail is because of lack of resources. I went to an elementary school in Hollywood that was made up of many immigrant children, or which I was one. I never saw it as a disadvantage. When I went to LACC junior college, most of the student body was black. It was at this moment when I started to have black friends. I am grateful for the opportunity. So, in answer to your question, if schools in Finland have the same resources as everywhere, why not. Being with children from other cultures, just like where I grew up – like you in your neck of the woods – in multicultural Hollywood, would not hurt them.
      Nobody wants their real estate prices to fall but the only way to prevent our society from becoming ethnically segregated is by offering opportunities. I believe we have good values and morals in our society. If we could only apply them to non-Finns we would solve a lot of future agony and pain to our society.

  44. Referee

    “the only way to prevent our society from becoming ethnically segregated is by offering opportunities.”

    There are good opportunities for unintegrating immigrants to move back to their home countries. And we all know which groups are the ones who segregate themselves into their ghettoes and refuse to integrate into mainstream culture; so why should we open the door for them in the first place, it’s a lose-lose situation?

    • Enrique

      –overprotection of minorities, damned if you hire, damned if you dont…

      Humans are humans in any society. Some will jump at opportunity in dubious ways. If uses the law without scruples he deserves what is coming to him. The article shows how, in the eyes of the general public, one person can ruin things for the rest. It does not, however, show that all Muslims are like this dishonest police commissioner. So let’s not exaggerate, Hannu…

  45. hannu

    “LACC junior college, most of the student body was black”

    So it was mainly “monocultural”, or were there many black indians, aboriginals and africans? Was that same place where teachers pointed to black students and asked to understand them?

    “Most immigrants (I am probably a minority) are on the conservative scale many miles right of you.”

    And you dont see how exactly this is problem with all other faux pas.

    “I went to an elementary school in Hollywood that was made up of many immigrant children, or which I was one. I never saw it as a disadvantage.”

    Immigrated when and on what reason and with what skills they had already? I remember how Willie isnt, according to you, immigrant because his granparents went to usa ages ago…
    Did they speak english? Did they have comparable education when they came? How much you had to tolerate them? Were there same rules to all?

    • Enrique

      –How much you had to tolerate them? Were there same rules to all?

      The United States of the 1960s was a very different place than today. I think the point here today is that our societies are diverse and the public space we share belongs to all those that are members of our society. It is not only “yours” as it is not only “there’s.” If there are enough Catholics living in a neighborhood, they have a right to build a church because in our secular country there is religious freedom.

  46. Tiwaz

    -“Most immigrants (I am probably a minority) are on the conservative scale many miles right of you.”

    Which is precisely the issue as said earlier. Why it is A-OK in your view for them to be “conservative” and demand appeasement of their cultural traditions but when Finn does the same it is screaming of racism?

    -“Like you, they probably did not grew up in liberal societies but came from very conservative ones.”

    So what? Now they are no longer in their original society. They must have had reason why living in their original society was so bad that they chose to leave. Why they then cling to that old, failed society and why you support the attempt to cling to it?

    -“Many, I suspect, only want a job, adapt and get on with their lives.”

    So why they do not do anything to achieve adaptation? Adapting is between their ears, there is no magic potion to drink and suddenly be adapted. Willie, who had much better starting position, clearly had to put his arse to work to adapt.

    -“It is that simple but then again, in Finland, it isn’t.”

    So cry me a river. If all their skills are concentrated on herding goats, what kind of job they could successfully perform in Finland?

    You never have given any solution to issue that most refugees and whole lot of immigrants have no useful skills to offer to Finnish job market. And then you complain how racist Finns are when they do not give jobs to these incompetents.

    Would you want Witchdoctor Actchoo to perform surgery on you because he HAD to get a job? Despite fact that his medical “skills” are limited to party tricks and mumbo jumbo?

    Same for customer service professions which are large part of job market. Over 90% of your customers are going to be Finns. Finns want to speak Finnish.

    So it is essential for person in customer contact to… Speak fluent Finnish! It is essential skill just like medical knowledge is for doctor. For that very reason at any given store you will find nice people who tend to have variety of languages known between them, so that there is chance to provide tourist with service in their preferred language.

    • Enrique

      –Why it is A-OK in your view for them to be “conservative” and demand appeasement of their cultural traditions but when Finn does the same it is screaming of racism?

      My point here is that most likely your views of immigrants and refugees is totally off court. Your attitude makes you want them to conform to your stereotypes. Thus by keeping them excluded and through high unemployment you can reinforce stereotype number uno: all foreigners are a bunch of social-welfare bums.

      But don’t worry, Tiwaz, with attitudes as they are in this country, I doubt that there will be a lot of immigrants. Just work later until retirement age and watch our economy suffer because we can’t live with other people who are not Finn. In short, thank yourself for shotting your leg. After 2010, the labor shortage will get far worse. In 2020, you may be sorry for your reticent attitudes. It is like being in distress and not being able to receive any treatment from a person who is not a Finn. I feel sorry for you.

  47. Tony Garcia

    “Have I misinterpreted you?”

    Of course you have, and you know that. Sorry I won’t be answering the same question over and over again. Alibhai-Brown and Friedman’s articles are very clear about what I’ saying.

    And BTW I think Friedman’s article is so important. When a liberal writing to a liberal newspaper is critic to a ethnic minority group, wow… For me this means that things are going very bad.

    “…only way to prevent our society from becoming ethnically segregated is by offering opportunities”

    Nop the only way is minorities stop segregating themselves.

    “It was at this moment when I started to have black friends. I am grateful for the opportunity.”

    Why are bring race back to this discursion? Sorry but talking about racism, you are the one who most talk about race here, all the rest only talks about culture.

    For me a black American is not the same than a black Somali. If you think so, then you are the one who believes in racial equality.

    “I can say right now, that this immigrant doesn’t want any more refugees in my municipality. Why? I’m sick and tired of having to defend myself because of their actions.”

    Amen to that…

    “But don’t worry, Tiwaz, with attitudes as they are in this country, I doubt that there will be a lot of immigrants.”

    Well, let’s hope so…

    “all foreigners are a bunch of social-welfare bums.”

    He never said that, neither none of us who fight for Finland to be Finland.

    “In short, thank yourself for shotting your leg.”

    So what you are saying here is that after they created the country they did, just by themselves, now they need us to save them from collapse? Oh boy…

  48. Tiwaz

    -“My point here is that most likely your views of immigrants and refugees is totally off court.”

    They are based on statistics and facts. You can’t get much more in court than that.

    -“Your attitude makes you want them to conform to your stereotypes.”

    My attitude makes me want them to conform to Finnish laws and Finnish society instead of demanding me to conform to the laws and social principles existing in their hellhole nation.

    You and they demand that I, native of this land, conform to your foreign values and principles instead of holding on to my own, native ones. Do you not see the error in your position? Are you truly so selectively blind?

    -“Thus by keeping them excluded and through high unemployment you can reinforce stereotype number uno: all foreigners are a bunch of social-welfare bums.”

    Do you have any PROOF that they are kept forcefully unemployed?
    I have repeatedly asked this and I want you to answer to this once and for all…

    WHAT KIND OF JOB CAN ILLITERATE SOMALI WHO ONLY HAS SKILLS REGARDING GOAT HERDING PERFORM IN FINLAND?

    And yes, I do bring Somalians out often, that is because in that group most issues of immigrants are concentrated in one. They refuse to learn language, they refuse to adapt to existing cultural norms, they have little to no education, large portion of them do not put effort to learning those things either.

    Tell me, what kind of job can guy like that expect to perform? And yet you blame us Finns for their failure to present desirable skillset to Finnish community.

    Willie never had those issues. And he is as foreign as Somalian since his last contact to Finland was so far in his family tree it is as good as non-existent.

    Or Tony, guy who managed to make a good life for himself when he was in Finland.

    Both found employment in Finland. Where was this horrible racism of Finns when they came in? And Tony doesn’t even have most likely the ability to pass for native in terms of skin tone. I doubt he is quite as pale as we natives so it is obvious that he comes from abroad.

    For some reason, Enrique, you refuse to put any responsibility of failure of immigrants on their own shoulders. You close eyes to shortcomings and failings of immigrants just so you can preach how Finns are horrible racists.

    -“But don’t worry, Tiwaz, with attitudes as they are in this country, I doubt that there will be a lot of immigrants.”

    And thank God for that. Because that means we have stable and safe community for decades to come.

    -“Just work later until retirement age and watch our economy suffer because we can’t live with other people who are not Finn.”

    I can live with Tony or Wilie, hell they are people I would invite to barbecue at my house at summer if we were living closer.

    As it has been stated repeatedly, and pointedly ignored by you, Finns have no dislike of foreigners. We have serious dislike of foreigners who come here and pretend to be “owners of Europe” as we Finns put it.

    In Finland, things are done the Finnish way. If you can understand that, accept that and adjust you are welcome.

    -“In short, thank yourself for shotting your leg. After 2010, the labor shortage will get far worse. ”

    Says who? Few sensationalists who want to get into headlines of newspapers. Jobs are steadily leaving Finland.

    And again, what good does inviting here illiterate goat herders help us? We need SKILLS, not just warm bodies.

    We need people who have understanding of what they do, not just guy who is told to sit on chair and push big button ever 5 seconds without any grasp of why or what it does.

    Case for many wannabe immigrants/refugees who are unemployed is that their level of knowledge is so pathetic that average Finnish schoolkid ending their mandatory studies would wipe the table with them. And that is before we take into account that average schoolkid speaks very fluent Finnish.

    -“In 2020, you may be sorry for your reticent attitudes. It is like being in distress and not being able to receive any treatment from a person who is not a Finn. I feel sorry for you.”

    If I am in distress, say in need of acute medical aid, I definitely want Finn to give it to me. I do not want to end up in umbilical removal surgery when my heart is giving me issues just because idiot doctor from elsewhere did not think learning fluent Finnish was necessary.

  49. Tony Garcia

    “The article shows how, in the eyes of the general public, one person can ruin things for the rest.”

    No Enrique, as usual you refuses to see the point here. Many times, when some of us talked about minorities playing the race card you called it moronic. Is it? Really? Well, apparently not…

    • Enrique

      –No Enrique, as usual you refuses to see the point here. Many times, when some of us talked about minorities playing the race card you called it moronic. Is it? Really? Well, apparently not…

      What point do I refuse to see, Tony? Are you stigmatizing a whole people plus foreigners from outside of Europe because of a dishonest policeman? Is that fair?

  50. Tiwaz

    -“What point do I refuse to see, Tony? Are you stigmatizing a whole people plus foreigners from outside of Europe because of a dishonest policeman? Is that fair?”

    Is if fair that you label Finnish people and society based on your own, unfounded, assumptions?

    You declare Finns to be racists and xenophobes without bothering to ever even look at reasons behind issues you say need to be addressed.

    You say Finns are racist and because of that do not hire foreigners, and then when we point out to you foreigners who did well because they:

    A) Had useful professional skills and/or
    B) Learned Finnish language and cultural tradition

    And those who do not do well are types who would not get jobs no matter what nationality they represented because they:

    A) Have no skills which would bring anything of use to employer
    B) Refuse to learn how to speak and act properly in local cultural context, essentially acting like assholes in interviews if they get that far

    You ignore it and try to pretend you were not proven wrong, just to launch yet another attack on Finns and Finland with same, already proven false excuses.

  51. DeTant Blomhat

    What exactly “labor shortage”? There isn’t a labor shortage in Finland and there never will be. Of course there is a “shortage of slave labor” or why exactly do they bring in nurses from the Philippines or HK has now warehouse workers from Vietnam? But still its “racism” not hiring local immigrants? Come on now, entertain me.

    • Enrique

      –What exactly “labor shortage”?

      The Finland you are speaking of is what it was before EU membership – keep the economy closed and encourage oligopolies. There is a labor shortage in some areas and it will get worse after 2010 as more people retire. Now here is the catch: There aren’t that many comers to this country because there are easier one’s to move to. So, in fact, since we are going to suffer a labor shortage we are looking into raising the retirement age. Then, after that, the economy will start to hurt because output and labor costs will rise because there is little competition. Your nationalistic arguments will end pretty fast when your wallet gets thinner.

    • Enrique

      –We are never going to have any labor shortage.

      Wow, Henrik, I should go and read some editorials of The Sun to see what they say about some issues. We are not going to have a labor shortage because you are going to retire at age 85 🙂

  52. DeTant Blomhat

    We are not going to have a labor shortage. I just gave a lift to an Estonian mate and heard of his situation. last saw him he was working at a home construction. He got shafted of 4800 euros salary. The owner paid Estonian company… Estonian company “went bankrupt”. = no money. Now he’s being outsourced at another… he makes 8 euros/hr as opposed to the 3 he’d get in Estonia. A Finn doing that job gets abt. 300 for the days job vs. his 64 euros. And gyuess where the taxes and social benefits go? I told him something of getting employed by a Finnish company and not going through the swindlers as he is getting pissed in the eye… he is well aware of the situation. Problem is he needs to be good or better as now he has work – as opposed to being on the “Finnish wages” and opposed. So where is your “shortage” Enrique? You are just a beneficiary of this exploitation industry – I know you write to Monitori – that magazine is a waste of taxpayers money – get a real job please as I want to retire at 80 and not pay for KEPA.

  53. Tiwaz

    Even if this theoretical labor shortage came to existence…

    It is temporary issue. Elderly who retire some day are not going to live very long. Grim reaper is going through the big birth generation at rapid pace.

    Problems resulting from free immigration will not go away in couple decades as proven by failures of France, UK, USA etc. They linger for generations.

    It is better to take temporary hit of possible “labor shortage” than permanent problem of certain cultural conflict and disruption of social cohesion.

    In the end, if Finland sticks to it’s guns and keeps foreign attitude of multiculturalism away from rotting our society, if we ever need workers we can afford to pick the best ones.

    Finland does not need goat herders of Africa who would eagerly immigrate, because they are useless drain of resources.

    They cannot do anything worthwhile because they have no skills, and idiots who praise multiculturalism tell these herders that their culture of failure is so precious that they must not learn useful skills like… Oh, behaving properly and speaking properly. And on top of that learning to have skills necessary for profession which requires more than showering dirty dishes with waterhose.

    Because working in Finland is very much skill oriented. No skills, no job.

    Yes, some jobs do not require skills, but those jobs are few and far between if we look at big picture.

    Nor does Finland need some human relations PhD from anywhere who thinks his ass is so shiny that we Finns must adjust our society to fit his fancy.

    Only immigrants Finland ever NEEDS, are those who:

    1) Assimilate/integrate
    2) Have useful skills in work (this does not mean they know how to be British, it is not useful skill no matter how much multiculturalist propaganda claims)
    3) Are prepared to learn the skills they do not have and bust their ass doing that (useful skills like behaving properly and speaking Finnish)

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