The Migrant Tales Manifesto (for Finland and Europe)

by , under All categories, Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

Thanks to the growing number of supporters, Migrant Tales has become that “voice for those whose views and situation are understood poorly and heard faintly by the media, politicians and public.” During these past years we have read and debated many points of views and have complied some recommendations on how to move forward. 

The list is far from being a final one. We can add and change parts of it but the overriding message should be mutual acceptance, respect and equal opportunities. All these three terms add up to social equality, or tasa-arvo.

Migrant Tales Manifesto 

  • An effective way to make cultural diversity work is by heralding mutual acceptance, respect and equal opportunities
  • We like the term tolerance, or suvaitsevaisuus in Finnish, but acceptance, hyväksyntä, is an even better term that describes how we build bridges between different ethnic groups and minorities in our society
  • New studies should bring out — not hide — how Finns have been, are and will be a culturally diverse society
  • The first step in that acceptance of our cultural diversity are the children, grandchildren and great grandchildren of the 1.2 million Finns that migrated between 1860 and 1999
  • Cultural management/diversity should be mandatory and started at elementary school
  • We must learn to forgive those countries and people that put us in harm’s way
  • When we advance the rights of minorities we advance those of all
  • A member of society can never learn mutual acceptance and respect if he has low self-esteem
  • Empowering all members of society, especially minorities, helps build self-esteem
  • Inclusion means asking people their opinion, empowering and encouraging them to take part especially in the decision-making process that affects their lives and future in the community
  • Racism, prejudice and all type of discrimination that excludes individuals and groups should be strongly discouraged
  • Discrimination should be seen as a threat to our values and community because it hinders  inclusion
  •  The biggest excluder in society is apathy and silence
  • Politicians that do not speak out against racism and prejudice when given the opportunity are just as responsible as those who encourage such a social ill
  • Inclusion does not only mirror one of our most important values of our society like social equality, it costs the tax payer less and is a more effective pathway to integration
  • In order to free up tax resources for more projects that strengthen inclusion in our society, we should strongly discourage building walls of hate in our society
  • Mutual acceptance means people in our society can make lifestyle choices. These are not only ensured in our laws, but are protected on an individual and group level
  • We treat people with the same respect we treat our own group
  • Equal opportunities are a key component to building a successful, dynamic and content society
  • The more opportunities we offer the more pathways we create to our culturally diverse community
  • Everyone should strive to learn the best Finnish and/or Swedish he or she can.  This is as important as speaking other languages, like the one we learned at home
  • Since we are all different, we learn languages at different paces. Language should, however, never be a tool to discriminate
  • We should strive to keep politicians, policy makers and officials focused on our goal during this century as a country: mutual acceptance, respect and equal opportunities
  • The sum total of these terms is social equality
  • Finland is our home because we are a part of a wonderful country that has accepted and empowered us.

  1. eyeopener

    @Enrique.

    A major step forward towards a mentality of openess, acceptance and transparancy.

    I have a small critical remark. I would like to change this to a more positive approach in the same vein as the others:

    “Building walls of hate is expensive business socially, politically and ties up a lot of resources, which could be allocated elsewhere” into…

    “To enable the allocation of resources and capabilities there where they are needed most the ineffective and inefficient walls of hatred should be strongly discouraged” Or something like that!!

    • Enrique

      Hans, thank you for the suggestion, which I like. I will include it.

  2. Method

    I’ll go by point to point, whatever I left out, I agree:

    “An effective way to make cultural diversity work is by heralding mutual acceptance, respect and equal opportunities”

    Equal opportunities can be tricky and discriminative.

    “New studies should bring out — not hide — how Finns have been, are and will be a culturally diverse society”

    I don’t think any study should have political biases. That’ll ruin the integrity of science.

    “The first step in that acceptance of our cultural diversity are the children, grandchildren and great grandchildren of the 1.2 million Finns that migrated between 1860 and 1999”

    What? How? This is something I just don’t grasp. To put it bluntly, fuck them. No one cares if they left. No one cares if they have fun doing it or not. No one cares if they come back. Their choice, no need for glorification there.

    “Cultural management/diversity should be mandatory and started at elementary school”

    Sounds like brainwashing. How it seems to me, we should not add more brainwashing, we need to get rid of the brainwashing there already is. That means religions.

    We must learn to forgive those countries and people that put us in harm’s way

    Depends on what you mean by forgiving.

    When we advance the rights of minorities we advance those of all

    Having a hard time following the logic here. Could you present some examples?

    Empowering all members of society, especially minorities, helps build self-esteem
    Inclusion means asking people their opinion, empowering and encouraging them to take part especially in the decision-making process that affects their lives and future in the community

    Well, the decision making process isn’t really democratic at all. No matter how you vote, the path will be exactly the same. The representative system is just smoke and mirrors, not democracy at all.

    “Discrimination should be seen as a threat to our values and community because it hinders inclusion”

    Yes, but there’s no exact meaning to discrimination, it’s more about “how I feel”. If it’s not accurate and justful, it’ll become a tool of power.

    “The biggest excluder in society is apathy and silence”

    Well, it could be aggressiveness and violence.

    Politicians that do not speak out against racism and prejudice when given the opportunity are just as responsible as those who encourage such a social ill

    Sounds like war mongering to me. “Either you’re with us or against us.”. In this way of looking things, nobody’s really making any choices by themselves, but they are forced from the outside. You’ll do exactly what you’re talking about exclusion. Excluding people for not acting like you want them to act. Don’t be surprised if they get mad at you.

    We treat people with the same respect we treat our own group

    There’s a problem. If there’s no “own group” to begin with, why should we have any kind of respect for others living in such a distorted dreamworld? Like when the swedes like to downplay Finnishness, at the same time their own identtity is a creation of their own imagination. A bunch of white people who think talking Swedish makes them different.

    Equal opportunities are a key component to building a successful, dynamic and content society

    Not in all cases. When you put two poor people against each other and prefer the other one in the name of equal opportunities, you’ll not create content society. You’ll create envy and frustration. It gets worse when you tell the loser to shut up and stop whining or “challenge” him.

    Since we are all different, we learn languages at different paces. Language should, however, never be a tool to discriminate

    If it’s in a Finnish law, that I’ll get state services in Finnish, then I’ll walk out of the doctor’s office if he only speaks Russian. And be very, very mad about it. And more this kind of thing happens, the more mad I’ll get.

    We should strive to keep politicians, policy makers and officials focused on our goal during this century as a country: mutual acceptance, respect and equal opportunities

    We should strive to keep them focused on keeping the money circulating, because when it stops, you’ll get none of those.

    Finland is our home because we are a part of a wonderful country that has accepted and empowered us.

    It’s my home because I was born here.

  3. Allan

    Why didn’t you write out what you really thought?

    An effective way to make cultural diversity work is by heralding mutual acceptance, respect and equal opportunities from the Finns, but the immigrants culture can demand segregation, disrespect, and women being 2nd class citizens.

    New studies should invent propaganda of how Finns have been, are and will be a culturally diverse society. Finnish culture shall be undermined and destroyed.

    The first step in that acceptance of our cultural diversity are wannabe-Finns who have no idea about Finland , the children, grandchildren and great grandchildren of the 1.2 million Finns that migrated between 1860 and 1999

    Corruption of children to the multicultural propaganda should be mandatory and started at elementary school

    We must forget the teachings of history and become stupid so we can be overrun, this will be called learning to forgive those countries and people that put us in harm’s way

    When we advance the rights of minorities we suppress the Finns.

    A member of society can never learn mutual acceptance and respect if he has low self-esteem, therefore it is important to suppress the Finns’ high self-esteem and make them ashamed of their history and culture.

    Bringing in unadaptable members of society, especially minorities, helps destroy the Finnish culture.

    Inclusion means asking people their opinion, empowering and encouraging them to take part especially in the decision-making process that affects their lives and future in the community, except of course if they happen to be Finnish PS supporters.

    Racism, prejudice and all type of discrimination that excludes individuals and groups should be strongly discouraged, except of course racism against the Finns.

    Discrimination should be seen as a threat to our values and community because it hinders inclusion, the only people to be excluded are the Finns.

    The biggest excluder in society is apathy and silence, foreigners babble all the time.

    Politicians that do not kiss foreigners ass when given the opportunity are irresponsible.

    Inclusion does not only mirror one of our most important values of our society like social equality, in order to free up tax resources for more projects that bring money to the magic wall so immigrants can live in luxury.

    Mutual acceptance means people in our society can make lifestyle choices. These are not only ensured in our sharia laws, but are protected on an individual and group level

    We treat people with the same respect we treat our own group, except the Finns of course who have the role of bankomat.

    Equal opportunities are a key component to building a successful, dynamic and content society, no matter if you are an illiterate shepherd, you are entitled to a management pposition.

    The more opportunities we offer the more pathways we create to our culturally diverse community to destroy Finland faster

    Everyone should strive to learn the best Finnish and/or Swedish he or she can to fill in the welfare applications and official complaints most effectively.

    Since we are stupid, we don’t learn languages. Language should, however, never be a tool to discriminate, because we are entitled to money from tha magic wall.

    We should strive to keep politicians, policy makers and officials focused on our goal instead of concentrationg on economy, healthcare and other significant issues

    The sum total of these terms is social equality on the expense of the taxpayers.

    Finland is our home because we found the magic wall that gives us money.

    • Enrique

      Allan, apart from good fiction writing you should get into comedy. You would be very good.

      One more point: Only whine no solutions. How disappointing but expected.

  4. justicedemon

    Method

    Equal opportunities can be tricky and discriminative.

    So are you recommending unequal opportunities? That is usually described as stacking the deck, which is specifically a trick designed to discriminate.

    No one cares if they left. … No one cares if they come back.

    As a matter of long-sustained Finnish government policy, you are wrong. Check out sections 47, 49 and 53 of the Aliens Act just to begin with. Obviously someone cares (e.g. President Koivisto in spring 1990). Whether or not they should is another matter entirely.

    there’s no exact meaning to discrimination, it’s more about “how I feel”.

    Hmmm… the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex. That seems fairly precise to me, and certainly no less precise than many social and legal objectives such as fairness, impartiality and accountability.

    it could be aggressiveness and violence.

    Not any more. Modern society has done a fairly good job of reducing aggression and violence in social interaction, and these explicitly negative approaches have few mainstream advocates. Indifference and lack of empathy are also socially corrosive, but you will find that they enjoy greater explicit support and engender less public opprobrium. Thus, few people will applaud you for kicking someone lying in a pool of urine at a bus stop in Hakaniemi Square, but equally few expect you to pay any heed to the condition or needs of such a person.

    It’s my home because I was born here.

    Can you have more than one home? For example, where is home for someone who was born in Finland but moved elsewhere a few days later? And if you are born near some far-flung office of Nokia Corporation where there is always a heatwave at Christmas, and you move to Finland a few days later, then where is home?

  5. eyeopener

    Dear Method.

    My reactions point by point that you have made:

    See my comments below. You will ask the same question later on.

    How do you know? What do you know about integrity of science??

    I hope that you will repeat this out loud when there will be some expatriates coming and staying in Finland. I hope that you go to icehockey games where Finns who earn their money, reputation etc abroad and show a banner with “F…k you foreigners” expecially when they bring in a WORLD TITLE. Secondly. What do you know about the motives to leave Finland??. Talk to you when hard times come to you. Or, are you holding up your hands at KELA and take the money coming from the taxation of their and other workers’ salaries (including foreigners??)

    Cultural management is one of the most important gields of current business studies. What you call “brainwash” is an insult to all people who work in this field for Finland. Taken it a little further: when you mix-up management with brainwash then there a very very few people in Finalnd who might have a mind of their own. Education at large can very much be defined according to you as brainwah. Do I see a new Minister of Education arising :-)!!

    I will make it a little shocking for you. Maybe Finland should forgive Russia for its participation in the combined German-Finn attack and siege of St.Petersburg (Leningrad by then). Probably very difficult to accept but the historical facts can’t be denied. As much as you probably wil do!! See the discussion somewhere else in Migrant Tales about the Karelia return.

    Here is one of your “hidding methods”. There is certainly an clear definition on what constitute “discrimination”. Finnish law, European las and UN directives very clearly state what discrimination is. So don’t play childish!! But probably you are not willing to accept such definition:

    Very good point here. Aggressiveness and violence. Except from physical exponents I hope you include also the psychological ones. Freedom of speech is very often misused to “cover-up” these points. A lot of people seem to forget that this constitutional right is not an absolute right but bounded by “responsibility before the law” Maybe a bridge too far in your logic!!

    Making clear your position as a politician belongs to the “role-model” function. For public administrator functions a “must-comply-with” condition. Probably a difficult conditions for a lot of politicians because they are so used to hide behind parliamentary immunity. I don’t need to give you some very recent details about Finnish members of Parliament who have and still are involved in court-cases.

    The problem that you have seem to be a hidden one. People who look different, are different don’t deserve respect?? Do you want to be treated as an alien?? Had some bad experience abroad when on holidays?? Wake up and ask yourself. Do I want to be treated as I treat people?? Interesting question, isn’t it Method??

    Equal opportunities doesnot mean no competition. It’s very much consistent with dynamics. You have to prepare for that. Your competences (especially you attitudes) will make the difference. Not artifical claims such as: these are Finnish jobs or positions.

    In that case my dear Method you have to learn to walk out of a lot of doors in the future

    Not everything is run by MONEY!! There are other values too that makes people live together, work together.

    Finland is my country because I live here!! I am proud of my new country but also proud to be a foreigner. Probably you don’t get it that you live in Europe, in the world where living together is not only made at “grass-root level” but also on higher levels. Just shouting “I don’t agree” doesn’t make too much of sense, does it??

  6. Allan

    “Your competences (especially you attitudes) will make the difference. ”

    Yes, your competence as an brainsurgeon astronaut and attitude that the light shines out of your ass surely makes you a valuable asset to any company.

  7. eyeopener

    Allan.

    Long live Apartheid!! Archie Bunker is your attitude towards English women. Nothing else than what you accuse other peoples off.

    Hihi Allan, who is a wanna-be Finn here??. What do you know??

    Indoctrination of white superiority form elementary class is the foundation of KKK/Nazi education. Should become mandatory isn’t it Allan??

    You have already a measurement tool for unadaptability ready. Can I have a look?? Would like to see the construction of the tool. Must be scientifically correct,

    “When we advance the rights of minorities we suppress the Finns”.
    Hihihihi. You can make a horse laugh. What kind of intellectual reasoning is this. School kids from the first grade are cleverer than you.

    In some way you are right that discrimination against some Finns are valid behavior. You are one of those who could legally be discriminated against. Must feel OK?? And… you should do your homework better. Finns have high-selfesteem?? Read some books my dear friends. Maybe this topic is out of your league.

    Blowing dicks when not made available is a crime!! Especially when committed by bold headed-whites with combat boots, black jackets.

    Magic wall of luxury. Have you made use of this wall Allan when you were still here??

    Unfortunately or in your case happily most people do not know much about Islam, Koran etc.. Ignorance is dangerous for understanding what are foundations of society. Like you address the lack of historical knowledge. Well, my dear Allan, you give yourself an excellent diplom of ignorance of “inquisition law” in your own history. But who cares. As long as you can BLABLABLA!!

    I was wondering how long it took for you to learn the Finnish language, fill in forms and started to draw from the “magic wall” Probaly you had some mind-like friends who introduced and helped you to understand the system and mik it. Or am I guessing??

    Cameron might not even be your friend. He is too social. Just do the right thing. Migrate to the US, don’t need to learn the language, start a new business, queeze out your emplyoees (white ones of course) and pay a flat-tax of 15%. Than start to shout to people who are a little richer than you, or -even better- kiss an ass or blow a dick- and demand EQUAL exces to exploitation of resources (including human: SIC11)

    You know what, Allan. Since you left Finland has become more peaceful and relaxed. Furthermore. The IQ level here has risen whereas I just read that in the UK it has dropped.

    Coincidence?? You can make a horse laugh!!

  8. eyeopener

    Hi Allan.

    If you want to quote from a text, please do it correctly. You don’t want to offend the actor saying these lines do you?.

    It’s already a shame that you can’t come up with you own interpretation.

    These kinds of “you-too jokes” are really boring.

    Next time better!!

    Waiting for the moment to arrive :-)!! Yoehoe.

  9. Method

    justicedemon:

    “So are you recommending unequal opportunities? That is usually described as stacking the deck, which is specifically a trick designed to discriminate.”

    No. What equal opportunities often seem to mean is, you buff someones chances by debuffing others. It’s unfair, when the situation is a zero sum game, but it also works when not.

    “As a matter of long-sustained Finnish government policy, you are wrong. Check out sections 47, 49 and 53 of the Aliens Act just to begin with. Obviously someone cares (e.g. President Koivisto in spring 1990). Whether or not they should is another matter entirely.

    Fair enough. I just think there’s as much need in glorifying or honorably mentioning it as there is need to do that about living in Finland. No need.

    “Hmmm… the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex. That seems fairly precise to me, and certainly no less precise than many social and legal objectives such as fairness, impartiality and accountability.”</em

    On paper it of course is pretty straightforward and simple. So is the definition of racism. In practice, well, not so much for what I've witnessed. Have you ever wondered why the anti-immigrationist seek the victim status? It's because it works. In Finland, once you achieve it, it's power over others.

    “Not any more. Modern society has done a fairly good job of reducing aggression and violence in social interaction, and these explicitly negative approaches have few mainstream advocates. Indifference and lack of empathy are also socially corrosive, but you will find that they enjoy greater explicit support and engender less public opprobrium. Thus, few people will applaud you for kicking someone lying in a pool of urine at a bus stop in Hakaniemi Square, but equally few expect you to pay any heed to the condition or needs of such a person.”

    I don’t share your optimism on the job it’s done. I think money has done it’s job. I also think, it might not stay like this forever. It seems actually very unlikely and that’s what I’m afraid of.

    “Can you have more than one home? For example, where is home for someone who was born in Finland but moved elsewhere a few days later? And if you are born near some far-flung office of Nokia Corporation where there is always a heatwave at Christmas, and you move to Finland a few days later, then where is home?”

    I think you’re missing the point I was making. I don’t care if this country is a great place or a piece of shit place. I don’t need it to accept me or empower me. I don’t even care if this country exists or not. It is my home because I was born here.

  10. eyeopener

    NIce home you got, Method!! Crying time about the past glories of the home properities. Poor guy. I really feel sorry for you.

    It doesn’t help to restore these glories by shouting at, insulting, blaming and discriminating other persons.

    You know what. If life means so little to you why don’t you go and sit in the forest and shut up!!

  11. Method

    “How do you know? What do you know about integrity of science??”

    Well, I know it should pursue the truth. If it’s not doing that politicians would be scientists.

    I hope that you will repeat this out loud when there will be some expatriates coming and staying in Finland. I hope that you go to icehockey games where Finns who earn their money, reputation etc abroad and show a banner with “F…k you foreigners” expecially when they bring in a WORLD TITLE.

    Well, that would obviously mean I care. Which I don’t.

    Secondly. What do you know about the motives to leave Finland??. Talk to you when hard times come to you. Or, are you holding up your hands at KELA and take the money coming from the taxation of their and other workers’ salaries (including foreigners??)

    I could tell you thing or two about me that would clear to you how stubborn asshole I have been all my life and what kind of hardships I’ve been trough, the blood I’ve bled and the blood I’ve washed off of me, but I rather not. I don’t need to prove anything. I mean, like I said, it would mean I care. Which I don’t.

    Cultural management is one of the most important gields of current business studies. What you call “brainwash” is an insult to all people who work in this field for Finland. Taken it a little further: when you mix-up management with brainwash then there a very very few people in Finalnd who might have a mind of their own.

    Please enlighten me on cultural management. I don’t think schools should enforce any politics whatsoever. I don’t think schools should enforce any religious believes.

    I will make it a little shocking for you. Maybe Finland should forgive Russia for its participation in the combined German-Finn attack and siege of St.Petersburg (Leningrad by then).

    Maybe we shouldn’t forgive Finland. Maybe it has some dues to pay for it’s people for waging wars on their homes. Maybe we should go and ask the war veterans why they are such assholes and take the collected money from them to pay for all the homes that were lost for their madness.

    Probably very difficult to accept but the historical facts can’t be denied. As much as you probably wil do!! See the discussion somewhere else in Migrant Tales about the Karelia return.

    Who wants that garbage back? Where did I say that?

    Very good point here. Aggressiveness and violence. Except from physical exponents I hope you include also the psychological ones. Freedom of speech is very often misused to “cover-up” these points. …etc.. all that stuff I didn’t bring up….

    Who are you talking to? I mean, all I said was it could be worse. So apathy and silence aren’t really the worse things that happen in society.

    The problem that you have seem to be a hidden one. People who look different, are different don’t deserve respect?? Do you want to be treated as an alien?? Had some bad experience abroad when on holidays?? Wake up and ask yourself. Do I want to be treated as I treat people?? Interesting question, isn’t it Method??

    I think you missed the point. If there’s no “my group”, then how would I even understand the concept. That’s the point right? There are no Finns. I don’t exist in a non-existant group. The citizenship is the only thing binding me to it, and as that it’s worth nothing, since I was born with it. Default value. Didn’t sign up for anything. What else is there? Being white? White man is the devil. The racist, oven heating, slaving, cave dwelling, child abusing, mass murdering evil doer of the world, that should be stopped and destroyed before he destroys the planet.

    Equal opportunities doesnot mean no competition. It’s very much consistent with dynamics. You have to prepare for that. Your competences (especially you attitudes) will make the difference. Not artifical claims such as: these are Finnish jobs or positions.
    In that case my dear Method you have to learn to walk out of a lot of doors in the future
    Not everything is run by MONEY!! There are other values too that makes people live together, work together.

    I will propably walk out of alot of doors in the future. Well, it’s really an easy test. Take the money out of the equation and see if they live together and work together after that. If they do, it’s not about the money.

    Finland is my country because I live here!! I am proud of my new country but also proud to be a foreigner. Probably you don’t get it that you live in Europe, in the world where living together is not only made at “grass-root level” but also on higher levels. Just shouting “I don’t agree” doesn’t make too much of sense, does it??

    Good for you. I don’t get how it’s only the immigrants and some neo nazi faggots that are so keen on being a Finn. It’s really nothing valuable or real.

  12. justicedemon

    Method

    1. Fairness is the express objective of equal opportunities. Indeed if you can show that measures taken to ensure equal opportunities result in long-term unfairness, then you have refuted the political basis for those measures. The concept of affirmative action is defined in these terms, and amounts to nothing more than taking a broader view of individuals that includes their social and personal circumstances when evaluating their merits.

    A simple example suffices to show this. Which of two contestants with the same achievement record but differing levels of privilege has shown the greater overall merit? Let’s say that you have two students with a B-grade in maths, but one has benefited from expensive private tutors while the other is from a deprived background and mainly self-taught. Which student would you admit to further studies?

    Issues may arise over the working legal definitions of relative deprivation, but these are in principle no different from the legal rules that define the weaker party in many types of relationship (e.g. employment, public services, retail trading). Just as the law normally deems that the employee is the weaker party in employment, or that the consumer is the weaker party in retail trading, it may also deem that a person with a certain physical characteristic is always and necessarily disadvantaged by that characteristic. This is a problem with law in general. A rule that is designed to prevent discrimination against dwarfs, for example, might be perceived to disproportionately advantage them in work where small size is not a handicap.

    2.

    On paper it of course is pretty straightforward and simple.

    You argued that there is no exact meaning to discrimination. That is a question of definition, and as such must always be “on paper”. Our definitions of discrimination are at least as sound and clear as many other quite uncontroversial definitions used in law and social sciences.

    Claiming victim status and actually being a victim are quite different things. Losing the privileges of unjustified social dominance does not make anyone a victim. The plantation owner is not a victim of the emancipation of slaves, any more than the burglar is a victim of enhanced security systems.

    3. Place of birth is but one factor in determining a person’s home. There is probably some room for sentiment here, but the expression “an accident of birth” is certainly not meaningless.

  13. Method

    We’re moving here on the edge of my skills in this language.

    1. This is actually interesting and informative, thank you for clarifying.

    2. Losing the privileges of unjustified social dominance , Where’s the unjustified social dominance defined? What I’m getting at here, is that the law contains these belief- based elements that in the end give all the power to lawyers and judges. Realization makes me very uneasy. I have one time stood in front of a bunch of guys in a suit while they were measuring whether I look bigger than the other guy and therefore am more guilty than him. It was a very Kafka-like moment for me. But claiming to be a victim and victim status are not very different things. The latter seems to be achieved by repeating the former until it becomes the truth. The plantation owner would have probably considered a victim in his historical perspective. Or are you implying we are somehow advanced closer to some universal truth today? Ok, but I think there are no truths, just reactions to something abstract we think as “past”. We’re wrong, but in what way, will be determined how the world progresses and evolves.

    3. Please elaborate.

  14. Mark

    Method

    No. What equal opportunities often seem to mean is, you buff someones chances by debuffing others. It’s unfair, when the situation is a zero sum game, but it also works when not.

    It’s important to realise in any debate about equality that ‘fairness’ is measured in different ways depending on several factors. ‘Universal’ equality is the idea that everyone gets the same, regardless of circumstances. It’s seen as ‘fair’ because it’s seen as a ‘universal right’ that everyone is entitled to. Take for example child allowance. On the other hand, equality also comes in the shape of ‘equity’. Equity means that everyone gets what they need equally, based on their need. As people’s needs are different, people get different amounts. So, if you measure the amounts and they are not the same, and you apply a kind of universal approach where you expect everything to be ‘the same’, then you would say that this is not fair. However, the idea of equality is still valid, because if two people’s needs are the same, then they get the same amount. This is the reasoning behind positive discrimination and its perfectly valid, because it is a manifestation of equity and not strict universal equality. But of course, ignorant pricks like you can always pull the ‘universal’ equality out of the bag and whine about how unfair it is. It is absolutely not controversial to give according to need: otherwise, we would be giving welfare benefits to millionaires. And tell me that that is okay!!!!

  15. Mark

    Method

    Sorry. The ‘ignorant pricks’ is over the top! Please forgive. I’m getting a little used to replying to Allan, and there, ‘ignorant prick’ really is appropriate.

  16. Mark

    Enrique

    An effective way to make cultural diversity work is by heralding mutual acceptance, respect and equal opportunities

    An effective way of giving all citizens their rights equally within a diverse society is practicing mutual acceptance, respect and equal opportunities.

    The problem with your formulation is that it suggests the ‘cultural diversity’ is something that must work. If it doesn’t work, it’s all to easy to simply blame ‘cultural diversity’ for the problem. The mistake we should avoid is ‘ethnicising’ politics. In that sense, we should establish the rights of individuals in such a way that it takes account of society’s diversity, and then we should ensure that those rights are upheld and respected.

  17. Mark

    Enrique

    The first step in that acceptance of our cultural diversity are the children, grandchildren and great grandchildren of the 1.2 million Finns that migrated between 1860 and 1999

    I’m glad you put this here in your manifesto. It’s a very important point. Finns expect to have the right to travel, work and settle in any country that they would wish to, and that they would be respected in that country. They would not expect that the Finnish culture would be constantly denigrated on the basis of statistics that show that SOME Finns are rapists, murderers or simply unemployed. They would hope to be accepted as individuals representing their national heritage.

  18. Mark

    Enrique

    – *”Cultural management/diversity should be mandatory and started at elementary school”

    This needs to be fleshed out. Maybe you should be more specific. The educational system at all levels should take account of the issues of cultural diversity. This should entail lessons devoted to looking at issues relating to minorities. It might even begin with the reasonably successful integration of a Swedish-speaking minority within Finnish society and extend to a recognition of diversity within almost all countries and nations of the world. It could deal with the challenges and the successes. It could and should also deal with cultural diversity as an issue of encountering ‘the unknown’ and all the insecurities that that invokes in people. It should also deal with the issue of bullying and discrimination on those basis.

    However, it would probably require a specialist teacher who would organise one or two mandatory classes every year for every grade throughout the schooling. That would require a massive commitment on the part of educationalists to promote cultural awareness. However, in terms of preparing Finns to operate ‘in the global market place’, among other things, it’s certainly got some selling points.

  19. justicedemon

    Mark

    Your profanity was misplaced.

    The equity aspect of fairness was a worthwhile lecturing topic in Finland 15 years ago, but nowadays it is explicitly understood in government and national administration, and is presupposed in the Constitution and in equality legislation. Equality does not mean treating everyone the same way unless everyone is already the same. The equity aspect requires us to recognise that people are different, and that the interest of equality is not served by ignoring those differences.

    My favourite uncontroversial example is public braille libraries. As, for practical purposes, only the blind can read braille, how do we justify the expense of discriminating in favour of the blind by providing such a library as a public service? It is silly to argue that this is not unequal treatment because people with normal eyesight may join the braille library, nor would the treatment become unequal if they were banned from membership. Instead we are providing a service that enables the blind to access library services, which are understood as an element of public educational and cultural provision.

  20. Mark

    Enrique

    – “Politicians that do not speak out against racism and prejudice when given the opportunity are just as responsible as those who encourage such a social ill”

    This is the old adage, the sins of omission match the sins of commission. However, this is such a vague statement that I find it hard to see that people will immediately see the value of it. For example, politicians are given ‘briefs’. They must learn a subject, and every subject will bring a host of interest groups, which they will have to balance and pander to to varying extents. The idea that every politician must be ‘on the lookout’ for racism and prejudice makes it sound almost McCarthyesque. And prejudice has an enormous reach – gender, social, economic, racial, ethnic, religious etc. It would make more sense to have racism and discrimination a part of social impact assessments for all government policies. That way, you focus on what they do, rather than what they say, because words can be cheap, even for those that support publicly less discrimination.

  21. justicedemon

    Method

    You referred to the perceived benefits of victim status. I pointed out that you don’t get victim status for nothing, and that loss of privilege does not make anyone a victim. An example will illustrate: White workers do not become victims when a company abandons a previous policy of automatically selecting coloured workers for redundancy, and instead applies a selection approach based on an objective analysis of operating requirements. Losing the privilege of keeping a job regardless of your value to the business while the blacks get kicked out does not make you a victim. The complaint that you got fired even though there were still darkies on the payroll does not deserve consideration, and bleating that you are a victim for this reason alone is merely a further expression of the racial discrimination that the business has abandoned.

    Birth can no more define home than any other single event in a person’s life. There are some people for who the place of birth is merely an entry on a certificate that reflects the legal conventions governing the event (e.g. birth aboard a German aircraft in US airspace). Ordinarily there will be a confluence of factors that collectively serve to determine the location of home. The best working definition in my view is “place of habitual residence”, or more succinctly: “home is where you live”.

  22. Method

    Mark

    First off, no need to apologize for stating the obvious. I don’t ask or need your apologies. Secondly, yes I get what you’re saying. I still can say the positive discrimination system fails some even when it’s as easy as numbers. There’s always those who will lose. In any set of laws, there are always the ones that get more bang for the buck and those that fall in between. And any negative anomalies in a society partly reflect those. Like I said in another thread, if you’re dating a jobless person/get one pregnant, the best you can do for her (if you make say 2000 € / month) is to quit your job or not move in with her. She’ll lose all the benefits once you move in.

    But when it’s about something that you really can’t turn into numbers, the chance of failing is clearly a lot of bigger. One side wins, other side loses. There’s always a statement and it’s personal. If you lose (be it because you’re not the right color, gender or so), it’s not any less demeaning if it’s done to you for the greater good. You take the hit individually, not as a part of the group you lost it for. Ok, it doesn’t matter if you’re filthy rich anyway or have alot of other options.

    Yes I know, collateral damage. But the way as I see it, it’s all cumulative.

  23. Nicolas

    “Normally when a child is in danger a whole society reacts. This is an inherent human behavior. Therefore, When children are victim of racialism, the community should mobilize all the attention and efforts in order to protect them”.

    • Enrique

      Hi Nicolas, and welcome to Migrant Tales. I like your suggestion a lot. An attack on a child or adolescent, like in the case of Rebecka Holm, is something all of society should be outraged. As long as we don’t turn into an unruly mob, I totally agree with you!

  24. Nicolas

    Thank you Enrrique for the welcoming.

    Regarding my post, I would like to add something. Despite I’ve been living in Finland already for 3 years and I that have a finnish wife, with whom normally I discuss about different subjects, such as cultural differences, the society and racism in this country. I cannot understand the passive behaviour of the good people of this nation, which I’m sure are more in number of those who dare to attack somebody due to the skin color.

    I have asked my wife: why in situation described by Rebecka Holm or the story of a immigrant child who was pushed out of the tram by an adult, are not enough reasons to leave behind the passiveness?

    In my country (Colombia) we do have very horrible things happening to children and women, but the good people normally are not passive in situations when the most vulnerable are in danger.

    I heard about a Canadian woman who was speaking english in the metro, holding her baby in the hands, being attacked by a Finnish woman who thought she was American.

    Normally the archetype of a mother with a child produces compassion and reactions. But in this case, it was very clear that people were shocked, but nobody dared to intervene.

    Why, in war places like Colombia, where there are so many deeds against the international humanitarian law, still you find good citizens reacting moved by the desperation which produce to see a jeopardized child or a woman?

    My wife didn’t know what to say…

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