Okay u can trust ur police, u can hugs ur police as u wish, u have free will like ur police

Did you really get beaten up by police and why?

No am joking on MT, police was dancing infront of me to make me happythen gave me flowers and chocolates.

Would you please explain with little more details?

Would u please explain more about yourself and ur job? Why u want to know more? Specially dont forget u r a person who wordship police so if u trust ur police i dont trust u.

Or maybe u want come to past and watch how ur dirty police beated me, sorry we cant go to past its not possible.

when ur ombudsman and humanright, parliament and court were against me even with my record and paper
Then how can i trust u and expalin u more???
Sorry u r not talking to a child, but to a very intelligent person, dont doubt
Bravo to me for always

And why should this be other vice?
Finland is one of most stable societies, I hope you do not wish to change that?

“If the police beat u in front of others, those that watch will do so apathetically; even ur friends will tell u that’s normal in these parts”

Statistically there is quite a lot of violence, between the Finns themself.
Police brutality is very rare, and Finns trust their Police-force for a good reason.

Did you really get beaten up by police and why?
Would you please explain with little more details?

Why are you so hypersensitive about what people think about their lives in Finland. I don’t get it.

She cant get her family here on finns expense

That is what this writing boils down too. Thats why she comes up with these “no love” “police sucks” “dreams crushed” style of things.

Ofcourse she adds stuff that is only intentionally offensive like

“A country that is proud, but about what??? No/one knows, it’s a secret. Oh ha ha ha ha , ho ho ho ha HA!”

As every country in the world can be assured to be proud of something. This line can be only understood to meant to offend people. Somehow people here seem to see it as “expressing themselves – which is a good and healthy thing”

Also the fact that people here are not like in Iran seems to ruff her off in wrong way. Yes finns hardly are as social as in some other cultures. However mocking it is no cool. Making me feel she is rather unable to live with people whose culture is vastly different than hers. Maybe she indeed would do better living with her relatives in Germany in their little iranian enclaive…

Finland is a country against your happiness.

Well, for some, it can seem like that. But you don’t have to be an immigrant to find the deck is stacked against you in Finland, or that you can be let down by the authorities or that there is a passive acceptance (Eeastern European style) of the strong arm of the law.

As a nation, Finland is as happy and unhappy as any other nation, I would say, both from personal experience and from having long experience of following well-being studies in Finland. Many efforts are also made to study the special challenges of immigrants and immigrant women. Finland’s institutions make some efforts towards improving the situation, but the tricky part is actually getting real first-hand experience of the problems. Surveys are poor instruments in this respect, though a much-favoured tool of the public institutions.

Ironic, then, that when Dana presents her own sentiments and difficulties in being accepted, that she immediately draws severe criticism. Perhaps she is too quick to assume her treatment reflects a ‘national character’ of Finns, but then again, other people are just as quick to dismiss her problems and to claim that ‘if you are a good one, then you will do fine’. The first defence is that somehow it must be Dana that has failed, as if failure of the Finnish authorities was not possible.

I’ve seen this before. An almost total belief in the power of Finnish experts to somehow know all the problems and to have already worked out all the solutions in regard to immigration, so any problems that are left must be the fault of the immigrants themselves – and this coupled with a stony faced resentment at any suggestion that actually maybe Finnish experts are not so clued up about the problems or alternatively, in a position to do anything much about them, except report on them. This surprises some Finns.

On the whole, I’d say Finns are a bit sensitive to criticism, either from other Finns but especially from outsiders. I’ve seen it in the workplace and in private life. Finns like to ask the questions and be in control, but the minute that the tables are turned, then Finns seem to get overly self-conscious and tetchy. Some are downright defensive and rude, merely for opening the door to the idea that something in them or in Finnish society is ‘less than perfect’.

I’ve seen the same thing too in language lessons, an unhealthy focus on ‘perfection’, meaning of course that many older Finns struggle to speak English merely because of the utter embarrassment it brings and the feeling of condemnation from fellow Finns for not being ‘perfect’. I’ve also seen the sense of relief and liberation among Finnish learners of English when they find that a teacher is not interested in pointing out each and every error, but rather in helping them develop a normal conversation, where people can have a laugh, discuss and ponder in relative safety, with only the occasional question or correction. From feedback I used to get as a teacher, this was not the norm in the classroom, where the focus was on ‘correctness’, meaning people took few risks for fear of failure.

One might call it a crisis of competence, often covered up by ‘group think’, which is another way of saying, ‘let’s have a meeting and see if we can stumble towards some kind of consensus on a cover-up of our individual incompetence’. In fact, Finns really like it when someone is brave enough to stand up and lead, simply because it takes the pressure off them and they can let that person get shot down.

I don’t mean to generalise, but I have worked with upwards of a 100 different private companies in Finland during my teaching days, and even now in my public sector work, I attend an endless round of meetings where I see the same dynamics working themselves out again and again.

Of course, workplace griping is not unique to Finns. But what is unique is the constant interest and self-referencing to ‘being Finnish’, like it was a black hole, pulling everything to its centre. Maybe this a modern thing – a globalisation thing, or just an existential thing that attaches to ‘nation states’, where existential angst simply gets projected into some kind of ‘national project’.

Frank

The thing that gets me about you is that you have Dana put into a category. Maybe she’s putting Finns into a category and so that invites the same from you. But the neutral position is to want to find out more. Your position seems more like putting forward an agenda – something that reads like:

1) someone who complains about Finland must lack ‘international experience
2) that a lack of success is down to lack of language skills or not having a job (without considering for a second why there might be deficiencies in these areas)
3) that anyone who complains about life in Finland is necessarily ‘ignorant’
4) that anyone who complains is seeking pity or whining
5) that the ‘solution’ to an immigrants problems are that they as individuals must take action and no focus at all is put on those that would be persecuting them or on changing elements of the system that discriminates against them
6) that people getting support from Kela are somehow less worthy of respect or dignity
7) that violence and ethnic slurs are okay if they can be dismissed as ‘random’ and ‘rare’. At what point, I wonder, do they stop being ‘random and rare’ events in your book, considering that most of us only have about a dozen good friends who would actually tell you in some detail about their experiences?
8) that it always ‘takes two to tango’, meaning, I assume that all problems faced by immigrants must therefore be partly the fault of the immigrant, that part being the one that is always focused on. Much easier to individualise the problem and avoid having to face the disconcerting fact that official authorities might behave in anything less than a perfect and selfless manner, God forbid!
9) that because some immigrants succeed, then it means that failures among other immigrants must be their personal shortcomings.

Having put together this picture of your views, I really cannot see any room to offer or argue an alternative view. I can see you wheeling out one excuse or another to dismiss anyone’s negative experiences.

However, you ask why it is that some succeed and some don’t. Well, people are different. The same can be said for the link between poverty and crime. Many people have dismissed the link for the very same reason, that many people are poor and are not criminals, so it’s no ‘excuse’ for those that are. I think a concept that would help you is ‘at risk’. If you are in the habit of hopping down the stairs on one leg, then there is a better chance that at some point, you will come a cropper. It’s the same with poverty. While wealth moves in one direction, risk moves in the opposite direction, the risk for poorer health, poorer education and social resources, risk for environmental deprivation, risk for discrimination, risk for marginalisation. Why does this happen? Well, while you try to figure it out, don’t lose sight of the fact it does happen – and not just to immigrants, but natives too. The point is that immigrants often suffer multiple vulnerabilities and risks.

So, do we kick em while their down, or do we try to build a ladder to help them up? I think I know what you’ve chosen to do.

–This conversation has really gone off track…

Then help to put it back on track.

I think the best way to help you is to let this whole site be. I don’t have anything else to say. Maybe I’ll create an account in Uusi Suomi some day and continue discussing with you there. Until then, adios!

Then help to put it back on track.

–Exactly! But this kind of activism is also pretty much done in a risk-free context and some people accused my parents doing the same when that couldn’t be more far from the truth.

Risk-free environment? I have had death threats and malicious emails sent to my employers. I wouldn’t call this a “risk-free” environment.

The rest of our associate editors on Migrant Tales are anonymous because it’s too dangerous to be publish with your own name.

Then that was also my mistake which I should apologise.

BTW, don’t you think that the assumption that my family owned “a sackful of Krugerrands” is a bit offensive considering that Krugerrands has a very bad name? It’s like accusing every angolan using blood diamonds as their currency.

This conversation has really gone off track…