It's hard for some to see racism when you are a white Finn

by , under All categories, Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

What does Finnish white privilege mean? Does it mean controlling almost all political, economic and social power in Finland? How do we address the issue?

One matter is certain: immigrants and visible minorities in Finland will never be able to challenge such a social ill by themselves. White Finns, Finns with international backgrounds, minorities and immigrants must unite and challenge racism and exclusion that threaten our society more than ever today.

Racism Review writes about such a campaign launched in the United States: “The focus of the campaign is very clearly on white people and this makes sense given the demographics of the region where the campaign is posting billboards.  The Twin Ports (Duluth, MN and Superior, WI) is a predominantly white community (89%).”

Sounds like a place in Finland.

“When race becomes a problem for anybody that is in our community it’s out problem,” says Don Nass, Twin Ports mayor. “We have a role in addressing it.”

Martin Éric asked about the Russian community in Finland, which faces a lot of discrimination in this country. A good point. We have visible and invisible minorities that face prejudice in this country.

Should we start a similar campaign in Finland to address this social ill that has for too long roamed near-freely in our society?

Could we start with a poster as the one above and publish it everywhere possible? Not interested?

If you still are uncertain about launching such a campaign, we must try harder and come up with a better campaign idea that will awaken and mobilize people to act.

The message of the campaign is simple: We are against racism in Finland. Integration through acceptance, respect and equal opportunities will not only strengthen our society but cost less to tax payers.

  1. Martin-Éric

    No, it’s not difficult to see racism when you’re white. Not in Suomi. There’s enough ryssittely in this country that it jumps to everyone’s face. There’s enough presumptions that anyone with a non-Finnish and non-Swedish name cannot possibly speak suomea no matter how white they might be. The same presumption also exists that anyone white but non-Finnish and non-Swedish and who does things differently cannot possibly doing so for any other reason than because they don’t know the local ways or out of rudeness. Heck, that presumption routinely extends into an assumption that any such person cannot possibly know or even understand the local ways and must thus be spoken to like an ignorant baby who has et to learn everything.

    • Enrique

      Hi Martin-Éric, this is a good point you bring up. Invisible minorities like Russians face discrimination in Finland as well.

  2. Foreigner

    My question is; why is there so much hate in Finland? It seems to me that the Finns are constantly searching for someone/something to hate. First, they hate the Russians over a war which happened a lifetime ago. Now, they hate all immigrants and blame them for all the social and economic ills in the country.

    This society lacks happiness.There is no joy in this country. There is no laughter! Please do not tell me that it is the same in other Scandinavian countries. I beg to differ; I regularly travel to Sweden, and the people there have pleasant expressions on their faces. You will actually see Swedes laughand smile in public. Finns always have this sneer on their faces. They constantly look pissed off, even if they claim that this country is one of the best in the world.

    Come on Finns; laughter is good for the soul! Something is obviously wrong with this society,which is causing the suicide rate to be very high. No one kills themselves if they are happy; that is a fact. You people are obviously not at all happy. Sometimes I do feel sorry for the Finns. I feel sorry for those Finns who have never travelled elsewhere, and who therefor have no concept of what happiness is. Normal people the world over do not walk about with constant sneers on their faces.That is why it is easy for me to see Finland as a large mental asylum.

  3. Mark

    Foreigner

    You will actually see Swedes laughand smile in public. Finns always have this sneer on their faces. They constantly look pissed off, even if they claim that this country is one of the best in the world.

    I have to disagree. I’ve lived and worked with Finns for nearly 10 years and I have found them to be full of fun, mischief, good humour, and optimism. Finns are quite normal and I think there are a lot of stupid stereotypes about Finns, which you Foreigner, seem to be buying into.

    Something is obviously wrong with this society,which is causing the suicide rate to be very high. No one kills themselves if they are happy;

    It might be something as very simple as lack of sunshine in the winter months coupled to a surplus of hand guns and lots of available barns in which to sling a rope! That and perhaps the high level of alcohol problems. But still, I stand by the claim that Finns are pretty normal folk, who differ perhaps only in degree but not in kind to other nationalities.

  4. Laputis

    Maybe this advise would help to Finnish people – put dark tan on your skin, put dark eyelenses, make your hair very curly (or opposite – very straight, BTW some Finns can almost make from themselves “Mongoloid” looking people) and voila, go to walk on the streets! I think many people suddenly will discover that they attract unwanted attention, which they never received before.

  5. Mark

    Maybe this advise would help to Finnish people – put dark tan on your skin, put dark eyelenses, make your hair very curly (or opposite – very straight, BTW some Finns can almost make from themselves “Mongoloid” looking people) and voila, go to walk on the streets! I think many people suddenly will discover that they attract unwanted attention, which they never received before.

    What on earth are you trying to say this time, Lap?

  6. Laputis

    Mark, surprise, surprise, I told you long time ago that I am against racism. Yet you manage misread and misunderstand many thing I write. “Straw men” building, you know.

  7. Mark

    You have got to be kidding me, Laputis? 😮

    Mark, surprise, surprise, I told you long time ago that I am against racism. Yet you manage misread and misunderstand many thing I write. “Straw men” building, you know.

    Where did I mention racism? How did I ‘misunderstand’ if I did not EVEN UNDERSTAND your message and told you such? And how the fuck is asking you what you mean a ‘straw man’? There’s is something seriously loose knocking around in that skull of yours!!!

    Flippin idiot!

  8. Peter

    Mark: I understand your frustration in trying to engage in reasoned intellectual debate with an individual that seems to lack the mental faculties to tie his or her own shoe laces without falling over!

    However, by resorting to profanities and name calling you stoop to this individual’s level. You are better than this and should therefore retain your composure. I know this is sometimes extremely hard, but please try.

    Laputis: You claim to be against racism, but your repeated postings suggest something else. If you truly hate racism (and all forms of bigotry), I call upon you to condemn the terrible racist slurs written on Hommaforum; to state that you are accepting of newcomers regardless of ‘race’, ethnicity, religious or sexual persuasion; and to argue in future for a just and equal society for ALL. Will you do this?

    I am not trying to trick you into stating any agreement with any past or current government’s immigration policy. You may have your opinions on immigration as I may have mine. Let’s leave this aside and focus upon the issue of human dignity. Please confirm that you hold the opinion that nobody should be treated in an inferior manner.

    Do we agree that an ethnic Finn, a Sämi, a Finland-Swede, a Roma, a Somali, an Estonian, a Bolivian, or indeed a British person all have the same potential to both be beneficial and harmful to our society given their actions?

    Finally, I am proud that Finland has a history of migration–one that is often overlooked–and that migrants have played a role in developing Finland’s economy in the 19th century. Examples of such persons include James Finlayson and Georg Franz Stockmann. We should celebrate these “immigrants” and their role in Finnish culture. Don’t you agree?

  9. Mark

    Peter

    I’ll happily take a reproach from somebody who is willing to ask the good folks posting here to ‘focus upon the issue of human dignity’. 😀

  10. eyeopener

    Peter and Mark.

    Thank you for taken a stand -also reasoned- against persons like Clapotis (my coin) Claiming to be non-Finn C. tries to poison the dialogue with his “flip-flap” remarks, shooting with a canon on mosquitos etc. Always wrong but pretending to be right. Ignorance combined with arrogance, that what C’s opinions are.

  11. depressed immigrant

    Foreigner: My question is; why is there so much hate in Finland? It seems to me that the Finns are constantly searching for someone/something to hate. First, they hate the Russians over a war which happened a lifetime ago. Now, they hate all immigrants and blame them for all the social and economic ills in the country.

    I askes this myself many times and i couldnt find any answer. me myself i cant hate people for what ehtnicity they’re, it’s ridiculous to me. i dont kno, maybe its genetic i cant tell. i hope finns were friendly becus this is such a nice country, peoples hateret and hostile attitutude on foreigners spoils everything.

  12. Klay_Immigrant

    If you are a visible immigrant and challenge the existence of alleged racism that apparently goes on in Finland then you are just called an ‘Uncle Tom’ as shown by Enrique and JusticeDemon. Can’t win with them unless you agree with these distorted views.

  13. Hannu

    I would like enrique to explain unemployment statistics and why finns dont discriminate etiopians, khameronians, kenyans and nigerians. Also that why racism doesnt touch indians and chinese. There groups with americans and english do have better employment status than estonians. Couldnt find stats, with brief search, with finns included and cba to make one but i remember kenyans had best, way over finns.

  14. Klay_Immigrant

    If you want real racism cross the border and go to Russia. I went last summer with my Finnish partner and never felt such intimidation and aggression (non-violent). Being shouted, ignored and purposely sent in wrong directions. Could have easily got into physical fights if reacted. My partner who people presumed was Russian was called a ‘whore’ and a ‘traitor’ as she understands Russian fairly well. All this in just over a week.

    Finland by comparison feels like Disney World. Never experienced or witnessed any of the above after visiting on and off for 4 years and now living for 3 months. Which I can only conclude is that either this so called racism is the fickle imagination of those who express it, the paranoia that exists inside their head or brought upon themselves by their own actions which they interrupt wrongly as racism.

  15. justicedemon

    Klay

    Well let’s see:

    1. Cultivates an air of entitlement in relation to population groups considered inherently inferior and buys into racist stereotyping? Tick.
    2. Changes name and otherwise tries to deny part of own background out of a perception of stereotype threat? Tick.
    3. Makes no active effort to oppose racial discrimination and claims inability to perceive it? Tick.
    4. Assumes the social expectations of another population group? Tick.

    Seems like you tick all the boxes. And of course:

    5. Blames the observer for drawing the obvious conclusion? Tick.

  16. Mark

    Klay

    If you are a visible immigrant and challenge the existence of alleged racism that apparently goes on in Finland then you are just called an ‘Uncle Tom’ as shown by Enrique and JusticeDemon. Can’t win with them unless you agree with these distorted views.

    You see, that’s the problem right there. You don’t acknowledge the existence of racism in Finland. What kind of bubble do you live in, Klay? I’d be interested to know. Something is insulating you from the everyday world of many immigrant in Finland, whether you belong to a visible minority or not.

    It’s hardly a distorted or marginal view either, that racism and hate speech are a problem that Finland must face. Unless of course you fancy trying to discredit the incumbent (for another 3 weeks at least) President of Finland, Tarja Halonen, who expressed just such views last December, asking opinion makers like journalists, politicians, clergy and teachers to break the chain of hate speech, following her perception of increased racist comments in Finland:

    “Everyone should share responsibility, as this was not an issue that could be delegated to others even via the ballot box,”

    Care to argue with your President?

  17. Klay_Immigrant

    Wow a President or political leader making a statement to score brownie points or be an opportunist joining the band wagon. Shock horror!

    Look Mark, racism exists in every country, some worse than others. No matter what politicians or the police do, it will always exist. You will be naive to think otherwise. The same applies to crime and the need for prisons. The question is the extent of racism in Finland and whether it is a ‘social ill’ and rampant? The answer to that is certainly a big NO and I’m proof of that and I don’t even live in Helsinki or it’s surrounding areas. People don’t expect miracles as claimed, I’m not yet fluent in Finnish but people see me trying to learn and integrate therefore give me time to adapt.

  18. Mark

    Hannu

    I would like enrique to explain unemployment statistics and why finns dont discriminate etiopians, khameronians, kenyans and nigerians. Also that why racism doesnt touch indians and chinese. There groups with americans and english do have better employment status than estonians. Couldnt find stats, with brief search, with finns included and cba to make one but i remember kenyans had best, way over finns.

    Well, clearly it’s the same stupid stereotypes informing racism generally that are also determining to some extent who gets picked on. You probably know that many Asians are regarded as ‘hard working’, and that generates something of a free pass. However, the idea that Asians never experience racism is of course completely wrong, as documented in the research of Anna Rastas, who documented racism against children of mixed Finn-other heritage, including those of Asian decent.

    Also, many of the worst racist attitudes developed in the early 90s during the recession which also coincided with new influxes of refugees who were often herded in fairly large numbers into economically depressed towns such as Joensuu. The backlash was immediate and violent. Likewise, many of the Asians in Finland are Buddhists, while newer refugees from Afghanistan, Iraq and Somalia and are mostly Muslim, which also coincides with greater Islamaphobia in Finland and abroad.

    So, you see Hannu, there are alternative explanations to simply blaming the groups of people that receive the worst racism.

  19. Mark

    Klay

    You move goal posts like a Wembley worker in concert season. First you suggested that Enrique’s and JD’s views of ‘alleged racism’ were distorted. You don’t mention which views or any specific cases, which gives the distinct impression that there is ‘no racism’ in Finland. I’m glad to see you acknowledge there is racism ‘in every country’, but I guess you couldn’t quite bring yourself to write the words ‘there is racism in Finland’.

    Tarja Halonen does not need to champion the cause of immigrants to achieve brownie points with the Finnish public. She has been one of it’s most popular Presidents, Klay.

    People don’t expect miracles as claimed, I’m not yet fluent in Finnish but people see me trying to learn and integrate therefore give me time to adapt.

    I’m glad things are going well for you, and personally, I have found the vast majority of Finns I know to be lovely people. But you cannot decide something so important based on your own experience, especially if there are several things that insulate you. Are you married to a Finn, for example? Are you a professional with a high education? There are very many other situations that immigrants find themselves in.

    The main problem in terms of racism in Finland these days is not so much the hostility, which remains much less perhaps than in the early 90s, but the exclusion, especially within the job market. And then the denial, the flat out defensiveness. You know, this is not unique to the Finns, even the States, which a black president in charge, is struggling to convince many whites what racism really is.

    Take the main story above – Somebody threw this ‘It’s hard to see racism when you’re white’ video into a Yahoo answers page, and the venom it attracted only goes to show just how true it is, and how strong the denial is. Time and again the defence against accusations of racism is ‘but they are more racist than we are’. Not, ‘racism is bad’. Talk about missing the point….

  20. eyeopener

    Hi Klay. At least you are honest. You are a racist. Not willing to change. OK, accepted. But why do you think you can convince people to follow your proven wrong ideas?? Does this have to do with the characteristic of “clay” Inprenetrable for informed reasoning and argumentation. Something that you failed to do. Probably your head contents are like “clay” (=clains instead of brains). Must be heavy, that head of yours!! 🙂

  21. Hannu

    Halonen is old DDR lover with same opinion of freedom of speech than DDR had. If someone dares to say anything against her opinions its antisov… hate speech.
    In her world there is no problems and no one can speak about problems, hate speech!
    Mark how we fix real problems in immigration and immigrants ways if speaking about those is forbitten?

  22. Mark

    Halonen is old DDR lover with same opinion of freedom of speech than DDR had.

    Oh, not that old chestnut! The GDR recognition committee had broad party support, and recognition of both Germanies came in 1973. Freedom of speech was not an issue of the campaigning in any way, so how on earth can you try to link Halonen with soviet-style oppression of free speech? It’s laughable, Hannu, and it undermines your credibility.

    If someone dares to say anything against her opinions its antisov… hate speech.

    Care to quote?

    In her world there is no problems and no one can speak about problems, hate speech!

    So what is then, in her New Year’s speech?

    We are aware that these increased opportunities have their downside, the problems that we have been and will continue to be obliged to tackle both jointly and severally. Globalisation has made nations increasingly dependent on one another. There is not a single country in Europe large enough to cope with the economy on its own in the long run, never mind environmental matters or security or other large issues. There is no returning to the past; the best way forward is to continue to try to solve the current issues in European co-operation.

    Hannu, you make yourself look foolish with crass statements like that.

    Mark how we fix real problems in immigration and immigrants ways if speaking about those is forbitten?

    Hannu, I have openly discussed several problems related to immigrants in the threads of the last few weeks here on Migrant Tales. You cannot level that charge at me. It won’t stick. I did not see you trying to engage in that debate in any way.

    You know, I’ve followed this debate for many years. My first involvement with refugees began about fifteen years in London, when I set up a charity for Latin American refugees. My experience and understanding of the issues is deeply rooted in the problems of integration, cultural assimilation and the unique challenges facing refugees. The idea that ‘speaking about problems’ is forbidden is laughable. I spoke regularly with refugees about many many different kinds of problems. Refugees are more than capable of assessing their own situation, their own inadequacies in terms of the host culture, the hurdles. Yes, many just found it hard to get their ‘head around’ the way things are done. In regard to doctors in Latin America, they are like family friends, and the whole manner of a ‘consultation’ is different. Many refugees found British doctors to be cold-blooded inquisitors. Of course there are cultural gaps that need to be bridged, and the reality was that people within the community worked hard to educate and smooth out the problems, pointing out the benefits and improvements in lifestyle and health prevention that was so much more advanced in the UK than in Latin America. That’s how it. People have experiences and expectations, and they slowly adjust, through the support of professionals and bridge-builders, to their new situation. But you cannot expect immigrants to just ‘understand’ the Finnish way, especially if it seems at first so alien. And demanding that they understand it really really won’t help.

    Anyhow, my feeling about this is that several people in Finland don’t really want to solve problems, but they do want to talk about them, endlessly and from only one perspective, that immigration is bad, immigrants are ungrateful and will cry racism the minute you criticize them. Finns are set up as the ‘victims’ while immigrants are set up as the source of all problems. You know, it just cannot be that one-sided Hannu!! And of course it isn’t. So if you are going to tell me it is, I’m going to say that you are a million miles from practicing any kind of problem-solving.

    Problem solving starts with proper dialogue, not with scapegoating, smearing and an agenda to cancel all immigration policy. That’s not problem solving Hannu, that’s a fascist bandwagon.

  23. depressed immigrant

    Klay immigrants Finland by comparison feels like Disney World. Never experienced or witnessed any of the above after visiting on and off for 4 years and now living for 3 months. Which I can only conclude is that either this so called racism is the fickle imagination of those who express it, the paranoia that exists inside their head or brought upon themselves by their own actions which they interrupt wrongly as racism.

    I think your referring this massege to me. for your information im not paranoid, i do get healthy paranoid about stuff that goes on around me. russia has got nothing to do with finland, we’re now discussing about finland, it supposed to be a civiliced country not a 3world country like russia. i think it’s hard for you to face racism in finland if your white and previleged, so please klay you cant speak for all immigrants. when your claiming that you dont see racism anywhere, your speaking for yourself, not for me and not for any other immigrant living in finland. there is hidden racism in finland.

  24. depressed immigrant

    Look Mark, racism exists in every country, some worse than others. No matter what politicians or the police do, it will always exist. You will be naive to think otherwise. The same applies to crime and the need for prisons. The question is the extent of racism in Finland and whether it is a ‘social ill’ and rampant? The answer to that is certainly a big NO and I’m proof of that and I don’t even live in Helsinki or it’s surrounding areas. People don’t expect miracles as claimed, I’m not yet fluent in Finnish but people see me trying to learn and integrate therefore give me time to adapt.

    if racism is everywhere that doesnt mean its acceptable, it’s must be speaken and tackled against. your logic is strange, your thinking is racism is everywhere so what if it happens in finland. again klay, you cant speak for all immigrants for what they go through day to day. the racism that accours in finland is mostly hidden. your proof of nothing klay.

  25. depressed immigrant

    Hannu: I would like enrique to explain unemployment statistics and why finns dont discriminate etiopians, khameronians, kenyans and nigerians. Also that why racism doesnt touch indians and chinese. There groups with americans and english do have better employment status than estonians. Couldnt find stats, with brief search, with finns included and cba to make one but i remember kenyans had best, way over finns.

    This is what i think causes some type of prejudice in finns. a few kenyans or chinese people do good in getting jobs, then automatically to finns this means all chinese and kenyans are good, and not looken as individuals. a bunch of somalis are being discriminated in the job markey becus of their skin color and religion, cannot get a job, so this means all somalis are lazy, dont want to work, welfare shoppers etc etc. but people never look at any other factors why somalis arent getting jobs. when it comes to somalis all options are closed. it seems as though finns are always trying to find negative side about somalis. i dont have any hope in this country anyway, becus our reputation has been taken already. we have been genaralized and out on a stigma. everytime some finns ask me where im from and i tell them im from somalia, they get shocked and dont want to do anything with me. just by telling them im somalian , scares them away. we carry this stigma, that we’re welfare shoppers, that we came to abuse their welfare system, that we’re a rapist etc etc. totally depressing.

  26. depressed immigrant

    Look Mark, racism exists in every country, some worse than others. No matter what politicians or the police do, it will always exist. You will be naive to think otherwise. The same applies to crime and the need for prisons. The question is the extent of racism in Finland and whether it is a ‘social ill’ and rampant? The answer to that is certainly a big NO and I’m proof of that and I don’t even live in Helsinki or it’s surrounding areas. People don’t expect miracles as claimed, I’m not yet fluent in Finnish but people see me trying to learn and integrate therefore give me time to adapt.

    if racism is everywhere that doesnt mean its acceptable, it’s must be speaken and tackled against. your logic is strange, your thinking is racism is everywhere so what if it happens in finland. again klay, you cant speak for all immigrants for what they go through day to day. the racism that accours in finland is mostly hidden. your proof of nothing klay.

    This massege was to Klay not to you Mark 🙂

  27. Mark

    DWi

    Yep, I figured that. 🙂 I recognise Klay’s tone with my eyes shut.

    This denial of racism is a complete joke. It smacks of desperation by some people. People imagine that racism is ‘hating blacks’, and when they say, I don’t hates, they are just criminals, rapists, scroungers, they feel they are only stating facts. They miss the point completely.

    This quote below was in a comment on a YouTube clip of a part Finnish woman talking about racism in Oulu:

    Finland is NOT a racist land! Not at all. But immigrants and “mixed shit” are worthless scum in Finland. They come here to get easy money, rape, rob and rap! The people who want to complain should run back to they better lands… Go back to turkey or africa or where ever.. Think ..use your head @******. Fins are very good to all.. they get nothing good in return from people like you.. your are just filth who have come here to make a quick buck! Get lost!

    It really seems that racists start every racist tirade with the words ‘Fins are not racist’. Clearly, some of them are and they don’t even know they are. I mean, this isn’t even mild racism. This is rampant, vehement racism. And yet the guy apparently seems to be completely blind.

    The problem is perhaps that their definition of racism is very narrow, perhaps ‘racism is the belief that whites are superior or that racism is hating blacks. They look inside, don’t see ‘hate’, but only ‘anger’, which they think is totally justified. And the self-analysis goes no further. The conclusion – I am not being a racist.

    The good thing about Finland is that you cannot argue that racism is good, or justified. Finland as a country signs up to the idea that racism is bad and that expressing racism will mean that Finns will disown you as a member of their nation.

    But the problem is that almost no-one will say ‘I hate blacks because they are black’. This is obvious racism which most Finns would recognise and condemn, even while many in their heads will be saying ‘yeah, those black rapists and criminals’.

    Until the vast majority of white Finns come to understand properly what racism, in its many forms, then we really are living in the dark ages here in Finland in terms of race relations.

    I defy any of our regular crew of critics (Yossie, Klay, Hannu, Allan…) from Hommaforuum to tell me this YouTube comment is not racist.

  28. depressed immigrant

    if a finn comes here and tells you that there is no racism in finland just direct him to youtube and ask him to write racim in finland on youtube. there is a video made by an indian guy who made several years ago a video about what he encounters in finland. the guy made a innocent video and it seems as though whole finland went to his video and made a racism comments about his appearance. the racism in the commenting section is unheard and unseen. i go there every year and commenting section just gets fat and fat it increases, im waiting when it will hit a number five million. there is also a video by miss jay,from american top model. there is also mad racist comment made by finns.

    • Enrique

      depressed immigrant, that is a pretty good way of exposing racism by the racists themselves in the comments. You have heard as I have on many occasions that people label themselves even if you never suggested that they are racists; ie “I’m not a racist…”

  29. Peter

    Hannu: Please read your postings before clicking the “post comment” box. I do not want to put you down, merely highlight that others (including myself) are finding it difficult to understand your fractured, misspelt English. You may also want to consider taking some English classes to help you. Your local työväenopisto would be a wonderful place to start and you might even meet an immigrant or two! As newcomers they need to make friends, especially ones who are willing to help them learn Finnish and/or Swedish!

    And now to the the content of your post about Finns not being discriminatory towards newcomers from sub-Saharan Africa…

    Sadly Hannu, you are wrong. Newcomers from sub-Saharan Africa are often the most discriminated against and vulnerable individuals in our society. (Furthermore, this is true for all European countries.) It is true that if you are a newcomer from this region, you are less likely to find employment according to your qualifications.

    Indeed, many of these persons work very hard studying at our great educational institutions, and still find it extremely hard to find employment. They learn Finnish and some learn Swedish too, but often they get stuck in lower end positions (i.e., cleaning positions or “dirty jobs”).

    In academic terms, this is can be referred to as an “ethnic division of labour.” Sometimes newcomers choose to enter “ethnic niches”, this is fine by me as long as it is their choice. However, sometimes the prevailing attitudes of the majority population–stereotypes held about certain ‘groups’–inhibit individuals from contributing to our society according to their education and skills. In such circumstances the newcomers you describe are often excluded by virtue of their skin color, religious practices or even something as minor as “a non-Finnish (sounding) name.”

    This leads these individuals into the tough predicament; should one remain unemployed and maintain the hope of finding a job with a little dignity or should one be pushed into a demeaning position? What would you do in such circumstances?

    This is, however, not the whole story…

    You write that “racism doesn’t touch indians and chinese [sic].” This is far from true! People of Indian and Chinese origin in Finland often experience a lot of racist hostility. I suggest you speak with some of the “tech migrants” working in the Helsinki area. You’ll be shocked by the things that have happened to them!

    I’m having to interpret a lot here, but what I think you mean is that newcomers originating from these parts of the world seem to do better with regard to employment that newcomers from elsewhere. There is a reason for this in that the newcomers from India and China are often employed in tech industries and are recruited as experts from abroad. Companies like Nokia (including Nokia Semens Networks), Kone, and others need the expertise of these persons and therefore bring them to Finland as contracted workers (often taking care of their migration paperwork etc.). These individuals are not your average immigrants.

    Furthermore, when Finland’s economy enters recession (like now!), such workers are often the first to be fired before so called “natives”. When such individuals lose their jobs, they often leave the country and therefore do not show up in employment statistics in the same way as others.

    Finally, you seem to point towards (white) English-speakers often doing better than “native Finns” as an argument that Finns cannot be racist. You are partly correct in the statistics point towards English-speakers earning a little above the national average. However, because some (white) English-speakers prosper this does not mean that we live in a society free of racism and xenophobia.

    Sadly this rather points towards the opposite… One can see a hierarchy in which there is a perception of “good” and “bad” foreigners. This order is highly racialized, although we often simply focus upon ‘other’ characteristics to cover up such racialized prejudices. Excuses are found to cover up the real reason we don’t want someone to work with us. (There is a lot of academic research done in this area.)

    English-speakers appear at the top of the pyramid because they are often (through positive stereotyping) perceived to be intelligent, useful (i.e., good business men) and “cultured.” This tells us something of the value placed upon the English language within our society. Such stereotypes whilst being advantageous for many (white) English-speakers, can also be disadvantageous for those lacking high levels of education or higher social class positions for example.

    Attitudes towards various “groups” within a society are informed my multiple intersecting stereotypes. Some good, some bad. The next time you meet a newcomer, I encourage you to shed your prejudices, forget about your “us” and “them” hang ups, and engage with this person on a human level. I promise that you’ll be surprised by the number of things you have in common, the same values you both hold dear!

    Good luck Hannu. I know that you can be a genuinely nice person. It’s something we all have in us!

  30. Laputis

    Mark:

    “You have got to be kidding me, Laputis? 😮

    Mark, surprise, surprise, I told you long time ago that I am against racism. Yet you manage misread and misunderstand many thing I write. “Straw men” building, you know.

    Where did I mention racism? How did I ‘misunderstand’ if I did not EVEN UNDERSTAND your message and told you such? And how the fuck is asking you what you mean a ‘straw man’? There’s is something seriously loose knocking around in that skull of yours!!!

    Flippin idiot!”

    Haha, what about you! You are damn idiot, when you even didn’t understand what I wrote! Even though it was clear, damn clear what I wrote! And yeah, you were making “straw man”. You thought I was racist, and the image of mine did not go together with what I wrote in your eyes, wasn’t it so? This happens when you “build straw man”.

  31. Laputis

    Peter:

    “Mark: I understand your frustration in trying to engage in reasoned intellectual debate with an individual that seems to lack the mental faculties to tie his or her own shoe laces without falling over! ”

    How about that I don’t know English language in such level as Mark does? Does it make me to lack mental faculties? Are you serious?

    I can’t hold conversation here in same level as in f.e. Russian language. I can’t explain everything precisely as I mean. I think that’s why I get constantly misunderstood. However, Finnish poster, Seppo seems to understand my posts (although he often disagrees with me, but his disagreements don’t reflect misunderstandings).
    Many posters misunderstand my writings, and Seppo is one who doesn’t misunderstand. I wonder why? Maybe Seppo, being Finnish, understands me better because of some mentality or cultural thing? After all, Finland lies next to Russia. And native Finns might better understand what writes a person from Russia? Or perhaps we share some common “indigenous people” understanding what other posters here don’t understand?
    Many posters here compare me to Perussuomalaiset supporters. And many say that my writings resemble those from Hommaforum. But I can assure you, that I am not PS supporter, I can’t even vote for any party from Finland. And I have never been reading Hommaforum (I only looked a glance at it). I even don’t know Finnish language to such level as to read Finnish forums.
    But my opinions are stated to be similar to those of PS supporters and Hommaforum. Well, maybe my opinions after all are quite universally “indegenous people point of view”? Such, as people of colonialist cultural background can’t understand?

  32. Hannu

    so telling finn that he dont have enough skills to write in english isnt racist while same in telling people that they cant write finnish is…..

  33. Mark

    Laputis

    I wouldn’t assume that because people disagree very strongly with you that it is because they misunderstand you. It’s because you come out with right old crap sometimes, like telling DWI he was a ‘Finn wananbee’.

    But my opinions are stated to be similar to those of PS supporters and Hommaforum. Well, maybe my opinions after all are quite universally “indegenous people point of view”? Such, as people of colonialist cultural background can’t understand?

    I can see you are a ‘theory’ kind of guy. That tells me too that you are about 25-30 years old? It’s a stage you’re going through, mate. But I guess we have to suffer you while you do. Problem is that your theories about race, nationality, ethnicity and racism are about as far away from the accepted wisdom as you can get. Also, it’s very difficult to have a conversation with you because you constantly put up straw men, that is misrepresenting other people’s views.

    If you do not mean something that someone thinks you do, just correct them.

  34. Mark

    so telling finn that he dont have enough skills to write in english isnt racist while same in telling people that they cant write finnish is…..

    Hannu. Lesson 1. No-one made a connection with you being a Finn and your language skills. If they did, it would be racist. Get it?

  35. eyeopener

    Hi Clapotis!!

    Mark is friendly to you. I am not!! I will position you like this: you look like 65. You sincerely try to make me believe you are modern-minded, rational, educated on the level 0f 25. But……..the fact is that your brains (clains??) content equals 0-2. Right??

  36. Peter

    Laputis: Firstly, you make many prejudgements about people posting on here. In your comment above you presuppose that I am not from Finland whereas Seppo “is.” Do you know Seppo personally? Can you guarantee that he (or she) is Finnish?

    Presumably you judge people on the names they post under–not a very wise idea! For all you know I could be Pekka, Kaisa, Mohammad, Javier, etc.

    Furthermore, you seem to think that your “Russianness” (assuming you are of course from Russia) places you in a similar cultural framework to that of a “native Finn” based upon a notion of geographical proximity. Here you attempt to fix cultural understanding according to your own ideas about where you assume a person to come from. If I told you that Seppo was in fact a young man from Turkey, how then would you explain your common understanding?

    What I am getting at here is that you are basing your arguments upon a very weak foundation! It is NOT a good idea to presume you know about someone when you don’t know them is it?

    I’m afraid that I don’t speak Russian. I wish I could, but I’ve never had the opportunity or the free time to do so. If you would like to debate such issues in Russian, please set up a blog and post the link here for us all to see. (I’m sure Enrique won’t mind.) I’ll gladly refer some of my Russian-speaking friends and colleagues (both newcomers and “native Finns”) to your blog to debate such issues with you.

    In the above you also write that “Many posters here compare me to [a] Perussuomalaiset supporter.” Have you stopped for a moment and perhaps given a thought as to why this might be?

    Further, you state that you can’t even vote in Finland. How long have you live here? If you are a Russian citizen and have legally resided in Finland for more than two years, then you in fact do have the right to vote in municipal elections and municipal referenda.
    Further information on voting rights form newcomers cam be found from the website of the Finnish Population Register Centre (click here).

    I’m sure you are aware that the right of an individual to vote is not connected to his or her support for certain political viewpoints.

    And now to your mental faculties… 😉

    I’m sorry that you were offended, but I’m afraid I was not referring to your abilities as an English-speaker. Rather, I was making a joke at your expense due to the fact that you have repeatedly posted on Migrant Tales in order to incite others (particularly Mark).

    This blog is supposed to provide a forum for reasoned debate. If you disagreed with Mark’s view on racism in Finland (or others for that matter), I suggest that you present reasoned arguments and do not attempt to undermine others.

    I, in turn, will endeavor NOT to poke fun at you or others.

    Perhaps you’d like to answer my questions now?

  37. khr

    The trouble with a campaign like that, is that it gets interpreted as “you’re racist if you’re white” – a racist message by itself. Accusations are not a good way to gather friends.

    • Migrant Tales

      khr, I don’t think the object of the un-fair campaign is to point the finger but to raise debate about a social ill like racism.

  38. eyeopener

    Hannu. You really are the fun to this blog.The best thing you can do: Oh my gosh you aren’t being called a victim of racism becausesomebody say your English is “lousy”. Well you pretend to be acknowledged in the language. Which you are at a lower level. Any teacher can tell you. That is not racist, this is an educational assessment.

    A person who had not been instructed in a language and you attack a person on that issue becomes racist when you involve the cultural background of this person as “the real reason” for this failure. Got that??

    Intellectual stupidity based on ignorance and arrogance!! Hannu, go back to school and learn a bit about the contenbts of the concept of racism. OK?? See you next week in my class!! Don’t forget: 100% attendance for “even grading your progress”. Compris??

  39. khr

    The same presumption also exists that anyone white but non-Finnish and non-Swedish and who does things differently cannot possibly doing so for any other reason than because they don’t know the local ways or out of rudeness. Heck, that presumption routinely extends into an assumption that any such person cannot possibly know or even understand the local ways and must thus be spoken to like an ignorant baby who has et to learn everything.

    Now there’s a fine line to thread 😀 Some people get annoyed when they’re not informed about local ways, and some when they are. Managing to find out diplomatically a person’s preferences and familiarity with the local culture of a person can be difficult. I’d hope some tolerance from both sides.

  40. Mark

    khr

    The trouble with a campaign like that, is that it gets interpreted as “you’re racist if you’re white” – a racist message by itself. Accusations are not a good way to gather friends.

    Is it really that hard to see the difference between these two sentences?

    whites are racists
    white’s find it hard to see racism

    God help us!

  41. khr

    eyeopener: if you want to educate, you’ll need to put out the message in a way that is not easily seen as hostile by those for whom the message is meant to. I’m not against campaigning against racism, but choosing the words like that carries the risk that the campaign turns against itself.

    What is intended is “you don’t perhaps notice racism because you’re not usually the target”, but it is worded dangerously close to “you can’t possibly understand the issue, because you’re the privileged majority”. Remember the target group of the campaigners are not the campaigners, but the mostly indifferent majority.

  42. eyeopener

    Hi khr. Nice you react so spontaneously. It seems you are in education?? Pedagogically schooled??

    You have therefore a better “campaigning strategy” in mind?? Could you inform us??

  43. Peter

    Hannu: I did not tell you that you do not have enough skills to write in English. Like others, I have highlighted your poor spelling and grammar. You have been reminded of this in other discussions and some have even hinted that this may be directly related to alcohol intake. Perhaps this is racist too? 😉

    Furthermore, I have no way of telling whether you are Finnish, Somali, Swedish or perhaps even human at all… For I’ll I know the responses left under the name “Hannu” are made by software that randomly generates words or a group of people having wonderful fun trying to wind people up! There’s no way that I can know this for certain as this is a somewhat anonymous blog!

    Perhaps we should each post with our full/real name, address and henkilötunnus in order to truly identify ourselves. 😆 What do you think Hannu? …if that is your name. 😀

    To me it appears that rather than confront the substantive points that I have raised, you try to discredit me by accusing me of being a racist. On the basis of the statements you have made on Migrant Tales, I hardly think you are the best person to be judging this.

  44. Mark

    Khr

    The intention of the campaign wasn’t really to educate though, but rather to stimulate discussion. The campaign got a lot of publicity and drew a wide response from the local public. Some felt threatened, but really, they are probably the one’s that need the wake up call. They are ones that say ‘what problem – I don’t see a problem’?

    I think you need different kinds of campaign to reach different people. I like this. And the basic fact of the sentence was correct: White people find it hard to see racism.

  45. khr

    Hi eyeopener. No, I’m not in education. That is just something that had come recently up in an unrelated project (more about marketing than education, but in essence the same issue: don’t alienate you customers, if you want them to listen to you). Unfortunately I do not have any good campaign strategy in mind, just reacted to an element that I saw as potentially detrimental to the goals.

    The idea itself is not bad – it’s a lot harder to see problems when they do not concern yourself directly. Be it about race, sex, sexual preferences or something else. This is fortunately something that most people can understand fairly well, because everyone is the underdog in some issues that some other people are often blind to.

    But the wording needs to be tactful, because anything that sounds like an accusation runs the risk that the message is not heard at all. Especially since the “not seeing” is not intentional, but rather about unintentionally not noticing.

  46. khr

    The intention of the campaign wasn’t really to educate though, but rather to stimulate discussion. The campaign got a lot of publicity and drew a wide response from the local public. Some felt threatened, but really, they are probably the one’s that need the wake up call. They are ones that say ‘what problem – I don’t see a problem’?

    Is the problem really not racism, but the lack of talk about racism? If somebody feels threatened, he’s pretty unlikely to change his opinions – he’ll still not see any problems. And he’ll be unwilling re-evaluate his views, just because someone he thinks just insulted him says he should.

  47. depressed immigrant

    I went to the mall today and as i walking through parking lot i saw a car there was this adult couple inside the car, so once the woman saw me she started to whisper something to her man, and the man started to find and search me with his sight and saw me and laughed at me. and these were not teenagers, they were two adults. i cant believe this kind of incidents still happens in finland. dont finns know that staring at people non stop or talking shyt infront of people is not polite so? what is wrong with finns man? and im not even genralizing, but this happens alot..alot that it gets me wonder are finns all the same? i kno it’s ridiculous to think so, but somebody please help me understand what is wrong with finns??

  48. Peter

    Depressed Immigrant: I know that it’s probably not what you want to hear right now, but it really isn’t helpful to stereotype “Finns” in such a manner. It simply reifies notions of “us” and “them.”

    Your questions imply that you consider all Finns to have something wrong with them. This, I assure you, is far from true! It makes about as much sense as accusing all newcomers of being “welfare shoppers.”

    Just as in any society, there is good and bad in Finland. Sadly it seems that you are experiencing a lot of bad at the moment. Your screen name–“depressed immigrant–further concerns me. I worry that you might be suffering from some form of clinical depression. If so, the slightest of things can be perceived as really strong emotions.

    I do not want you to feel that I am belittling you experience; it doesn’t sound pleasant to me!!! Please trust me when I say that there are idiots the world over and what you have experienced is not limited to a singular national context.

    Have you lived here long? I know it’s hard, but it might get easier if you meet a mixed group of people (including many lovely Finnish persons) to socialize with a little.

    Do you live in the Helsinki Metropolitan Area? If so, you might want to try attending some events run by
    Jolly Dragon
    or a like minded organization.

    Tsemppiä!!!

  49. Klay_Immigrant

    I wonder if “depressed immigrant” has any Finnish friends or acquaintances or if he/she sticks to their own, because the way Finns are spoken of by this waster strongly suggests the latter. Ofcourse even if that’s the case no admittance to this will ever take place but that’s your primary problem. Get to know Finns. Not that you will listen, carry on my friend suffering wonderful Finland and always remember Somalis are the most perfect people on Earth.

  50. depressed immigrant

    peter: I do not want you to feel that I am belittling you experience; it doesn’t sound pleasant to me!!! Please trust me when I say that there are idiots the world over and what you have experienced is not limited to a singular national context.

    Have you lived here long? I know it’s hard, but it might get easier if you meet a mixed group of people (including many lovely Finnish persons) to socialize with a little.

    Do you live in the Helsinki Metropolitan Area? If so, you might want to try attending some events run by
    Jolly Dragon or a like minded organization.

    Thanx peter i really appreciate your kind words. yeah i lived here all my life and i wasnt even generalizing all finns, i kno and im friend with good people who happen to be finns. maybe it’s the area where i live. i live in vantaa, you dont see much of dark skin people in here so maybe that’s the case why people are staring at me like im some sort of freak. but yeah like i said before my depression is caused mostly by these kind of events that happens in my life, social pressure, people not taking you seriously, making fun of you etc etc.

  51. depressed immigrant

    Klay-immigrant: I wonder if “depressed immigrant” has any Finnish friends or acquaintances or if he/she sticks to their own, because the way Finns are spoken of by this waster strongly suggests the

    why are you calling me names, when you dont even kno who i am? no name calling please, let’s be civil ok

  52. depressed immigrant

    Klay : Not that you will listen, carry on my friend suffering wonderful Finland and always remember Somalis are the most perfect people on Earth.

    klay this your comments suggests me, you got personal issues with somalis. did i give the impression or have i said that we somalis are perfect? i sense some sort of sarcasm by your comment. if you got some issues with somalis just be brave and say so. no need playing with words.

  53. eyeopener

    Hi Khr. Fair enough is your response. However, taken in account what this thread is all about (see Mark’s comment) it is far more better to put the issue as it is on the table. Running around the bush is then not very helpful.

    I am 40 years in education. This period has taught me to use “blended methodologies” to put issues forward. The choice depends on many aspects such as the nature of the topic, the experience of the audience, the knowledge level etc.etc.

    I hope you keep on contributing in this thread. Critical thinking is badly needed here as you might have noticed 🙂

  54. Migrant Tales

    depressed immigrant, thank you for bringing this to our attention. Makes my blood boil. Why don’t you are I notify the tabloid where it reads, “Ilmoita asiaton viesti.” I would tell them that apart from being racist and ethnocentric, it’s insulting to Somalis. What is incredible is that all of the threads are anonymous. Nobody has what it takes to stand by such ethnocentric comments.

  55. depressed immigrant

    Migrant tales: What is incredible is that all of the threads are anonymous. Nobody has what it takes to stand by such ethnocentric comments.

    Welcome to finland, where people use racist slurs in paltalks while hiding behind anonymously. 🙂

    • Migrant Tales

      –Welcome to finland, where people use racist slurs in paltalks while hiding behind anonymously.

      I sure don’t want to be welcomed to such a Finland.:-( Did you notify the tabloid?

  56. Asian (Realy I am Chinese so I know my own reality)

    Miksi valkoisten on vaikeaa nähdä rasismia. Koska useimmiten he eivät tunnista rasismia. Heille se mikä värillisille on rakenteellista rasismia on ihan normaalia.

    Ryssä vihaa ei sinäänsä voi kutsua rasismiksi vaan etniseksi vihaksi. Rasismi on ismi. Ismeillä on aina kaksi muotoa. Ne ovat ideologia ja systeemi. Rasistista systeemiä kutsutaan rakenteelliseksi rasismiksi. Rakenteellista rasismia ei ole suunnattu venäläisiä vastaan vaan värillisiä.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hei Asian, huomaan, että tunnet aiheen hyvin. Tämä on meille kaikille eduksi. Olen samaa mieltä kanssasi: Pahin rasistinen ilmiö Suomessa on rakenteellista. Oletettavasti menee paljon aikaa ennen kuin se korjaantuu.

      Historiassamme on paljon myyttejä, jotka vahvistavat rakenteellista rasismia Suomessa. Yksi näistä on Talvisota ja Jatkosota. Kun palaamme sinne historiallisesti aina vahvistuu meidän käsityksestä ”heitä” ja ”me.”

      Kaikki kunnia niille jotka taistelivat erityisesti Talvisodassa. Eikö olisi korkea aika katsoa tulevaisuuteen ja antaa anteeksi niille jotka joskus haluaisivat tehdä meille pahaa?

  57. Hannu

    Selitäppäs enrique tai asian miten meillä on rakenteellista rasismia venäläisiä vastaan. En hyväksy mitään “vain kansalaisuuden saaneet voivat äänestää”.
    Vanhaa epäluuloa, joka on aivan kokemuksiin perustuvaa faktaa since isoviha ja aikaisemmat, meillä on mutta missä valtionhallinnon rakenteissa on ja haluan tarkan kuvauksen.
    Miten johtava panimo tai puolustusvoimien tiedustelupäällikkö voi omata venäläisen nimen?
    Miten venäläiset voivat ostaa maata?
    Ja kun palaamme historiassa talvi ja jatkosotaan se oli me tai he, meidät oltaisiin tapettu ja siirretty viimeiseen ihmiseen.
    Venäjä ei ole muuttunut, sama agressiivinen naapuri kun ennenkin ja venäläiset on venäjän tuotoksia kuten ennenkin.

  58. Seppo

    “Venäjä ei ole muuttunut, sama agressiivinen naapuri kun ennenkin ja venäläiset on venäjän tuotoksia kuten ennenkin.”

    Olen itsekin kriittinen Venäjän politiikkaa kohtaan, mutta yksilöt eivät koskaan ole sokeita valtiojärjestelmän tuotoksia, ei edes täydellisessä totalitarismissa. Vielä vähemmän Venäjän nykypolitiikalla on tekemistä niiden tuhansien suomenvenäläisten kanssa, jotka ovat asuneet tässä maassa kymmeniä vuosia, monet jopa syntyneet täällä. Silti heihin kohdistuu täysin perustelematonta vihaa. Tälläisestä kaikkeen venäläiseen kohdistuvasta sokeasta vihasta on yksinkertaisesti päästävä eroon. Venäjä on meidän tärkein naapurimaa ja venäläiset suurin ns. uusi vähemmistö.

  59. Hannu

    Seppo ei suomen venäläisillä ole mitään sanottavaa siihen kuinka venäjä suurvaltapolitiikkaansa ajaa, niillä on sääntö että venäläisiä suojellaan kaikkialla ja siitä saadaan hyvä tekosyy.
    Ja et liene tunne venäläisiä, suhtautuminen valtioon tai valtion instansseihin on jotakin aivan muuta kun suomalaisilla. Ja se on ongelma.
    Ja sinun sokea viha… minä olen elänyt ja kasvanut keskellä venäläisten desanttien hyökkäämää aluetta ja menettänyt sukulaisia ja esi-isien maita valloittajalle mutta en ole nähnyt sokeaa vihaa. Päinvastoin olen nähnyt kuinka venäläiset toivotetaan tervetulleiksi turisteiksi ja osaaviksi ammattilaisiksi.
    Minullakin olisi kaikki syyt vihata venäläisiä mutta en vihaa, vihaan sitä mitä venäjä on.

  60. Seppo

    “Minullakin olisi kaikki syyt vihata venäläisiä mutta en vihaa, vihaan sitä mitä venäjä on.”

    Hyvä niin. Edellistä kommenttiasi on kyllä helppo tulkita niin, että puolustelit venäläisiin kohdistuvaa vihaa je epäluuluo.

    Tiedoksesi, että tunnen paljon nuoria venäläistaustaisia, fiksuja ja koulutettuja ihmisiä. Osa heistä on muuttanut Suomeen hyvin nuorena eikä heitä erota niin sanotuista kantasuomalaisista muu kuin tavallista parempi venäjän kielen taito.

    Venäläisiin kyllä suhtaudutaan Suomessa huomattavasti negatiivisemmin kuin esim ruotsalaisiin tai saksalaisiin. Tähän on vaikuttanut vuosisatainen venäläisvastainen propaganda ja tietoisesti rakennettu venäläisviha. Tästä perustelemattomasta epäluulosta pitäisi nyt pikkuhiljaa päästä eroon.

  61. Mary Mekko

    I think a lot of women in Finland are classied by Enrique into “white”, yet who know discrimination at the labor market big time. This Enrique as “male” (perhaps he’s not???) cares not to discuss. Everything in his life is about skincolor. He’s blind to the discrimination against half the population, but then, he’s blind in so many ways, that one wonders if it’s past getting glasses, getting a white stick to get through Finnish society to let others know as he approaches that he’s blind? A kind of white & red “stupid stick” that lets others know you can’t think straight due to victimology training?

    Enrique, why do you persist in using the American classification “white” when you mean “Finnish”? What does “white” include in Finland – people of North Africa with “aryan features” yet darker skin, such as the Christian Egyptians? Besides, it’s irrelevant. Finnish nationalists against which you rail are for FINNS, not for WHITES, which would include a heckovalotta other Europeans, Americans, Canadians, etc. etc. Hordes of Russians and Baltics are “white”, yet Finns don’t want them, either.

    If Halonen did associate with GDR and has a Communist background, why not discuss it? Are you saying that because she was young, she didn’t know what she was thinking or doing? We don’t think that the behavior of our leaders in their young adulthood matters? If Obama was taking drugs and fooling around with Communists in his high school, college and post-college years, we should ignore it as “youthful”? I say: NO. A person’s decisions matters, and shows his character.

    We have the right to judge those who rule us. What they said and believed while younger does count. If it doesn’t, then at what age does it? Enrique won’t answer this question, either. He’s got his stupid-stick in his stupid-closet, and can’t answer one honest question coming to his blog.

    Consider even the background of Germany’s Chancellor. Angela Merkel came from Brandenburg in the East, BUT her parents had FLED the West to settle in the East; the father granted a good position as a minister when he could not find work in the West. This was hidden from the public until his death. That a family would flee TO the East is incredible.

    Was it Halonen’s parents who misled her or did she choose her own EAstward-leaning tendencies? And if so, WHEN did she officially change her mind and decide that capitalism worked better for her homeland and the Finns? Now you’ve got me curious. I will look up Halonen and GDR, thanks!

  62. Hannu

    Seppo.
    Toki puolustan ja syystä, venäjä, venäjä ja venäjä on meille uhka.
    Yksittäiset venäläiset ei ole mutta isompi määrä on jo kansallista turvallisuutta uhkaava. Trastui sanoo paikallinen, mutta isommat määrät alkaa olemaan uhka vaikka yksittäiset olisivat mitä tahansa.
    Eniten minua pelottaa se että venäjä tulee “puolustamaan” venäläisiä tänne, historia kertoo että onnistuu.
    Pelko on viisauden alku.

  63. Seppo

    “Eniten minua pelottaa se että venäjä tulee “puolustamaan” venäläisiä tänne, historia kertoo että onnistuu.”

    Periaatteessa kai mahdollinen skenaario, tosin nykymäärillä melko epätodennäköinen.

    Tiedän kyllä, ettei Venäjän valtionjohtoa viime kädessä kiinnosta suomenvenäläisten mielipide, mutta kyseisen skenaarion todennäköisyyttä laskee huomattavasti se, jos suomme täällä asuville venäläisille reilun mahdollisuuden integroitua Suomeen ja alkaa pitämään tätä maata kotimaanaan.

    Viha ja epäluulo ei tässä asiassa auta.

    P.S. Jos Venäjä todella haluaa syyn hyökätä Suomeen, se keksii sen kyllä, asui täällä suomenvenäläisiä tai ei.

  64. Hannu

    Seppo heillä on reilu mahdollisuus, esimerkiksi täällä asuvat venäläiset nähdään pääasiassa “ne ny tekee hommiansa, mikäs siinä” ja toisen tai kolmannen polven ovat jo “ei ne mitään venäläisiä ole.”. Toki vihaakin on olemassa mutta se on marginaalista.
    Tämä on heidän kotimaa. Integroutuminen on aivan heidän omalla vastuullaan.
    Vihaa en ole nähnyt mutta epäluuloa kylläkin, aivan perusteltua. Venäjän ryssiminen auheutti sen että huijaaminen ei ole mitenkään väärin ja ketä kiinnostaa jos nyt vähän välistä nykäsen. Sama tulee venäläisten mukana suomeen ja sille on saatava stoppi. Tämä on sitten sitä vihapuhetta. Kulttuurit vaan ovat erinlaisia ja venäläinen kulttuuri on venäläistä kulttuuria.
    Minun mielestä venäjällä voimassaolevat tavat eivät ole yhteensopivia suomen kanssa, lue kirja bisneksen teosta venäjällä. Heidän pitää oppia miten täällä toimitaan ja sopeutua siihen. Ei ole niin onnistunut, viimeisin tapaus oli kun tuttua poliisia koitti lahjoa täällä 10v asunut venäläinen…. Ei kiitos.
    Toki täällä on paljon integroituneita venäläisiä mukaanlukien minun hammaslääkäri mutta siinä pitää pitää raja ketä tänne otetaan eikä, onneksi loppuneella, kokeilulla ottaa kaikkea.
    Vihaa en ole tosiaankan nähnyt, jos ei lasketa sodassa päähän haavoittunutta naapuria joka radioäänellä kertoi ajatuksiaan itäisestä naapurista.
    Esimerkiksi voin kertoa täällä syntyneen ja ikänsä asuneen “venäläisen”, vitut se mikään venäläinen ole, tuumaus kun kämmäs “ryssin tän”. Aiheutti hilpeyttä. Kukaan ei pitänyt häntä ulkomaalaisena vaan aivan suomalaisena jolla nyt sattu olemaan venäläiset sukujuuret.

    Ja ei ole olemassa suomenvenäläisiä, on vain suomalaisia tai venäläisiä. Täällä syntyneet lapset ovat pääosin suomalaisia. Toki suomalaisia joilla on venäläiset sukujuuret.

    Ne jotka eivät ole ovat ovat kasvaneet kuplassa ja eivät peruskouluiässä osaa suomea, tälle pitää saaha stoppi.

  65. Asian (Realy I am Chinese so I know my own reality)

    Hannu, Olet aika Venäjä vastainen. Kyselet miten meillä on voi olla rakenteellista rasismia venäläisiä vastaan
    “Selitäppäs enrique tai asian miten meillä on rakenteellista rasismia venäläisiä vastaan.”

    Juurihan sanoin, että meillä ei ole rakenteellista rasismia venäläisiä vastaan. Tarkemmin sanoisin teillä ei ole rakenteellista rasismia venäläisiä vastaan. Minua ja minunlaisia vastaan sitä löytyy ihan kaikille jaettavaksi.

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