Islamization and Islamophobia in Europe and Finland

by , under All categories, Enrique

There was a letter to the editor in Saturday’s Mikkeli-based Länsi-Savo about the Islamization of Europe, while Time magazine asks in its August front cover if America is Islamophobic? The two headlines, although from vastly different publications, shed light on how some Europeans and USAmericans see Islam: a threat or over-reaction.

As in the letter to the editor, the writer uses one of the favorite arguments of Islamophobists to prove how much under threat Europeans are: high birth rates.

Any sensible person with a limited understanding of the social sciences understands that demography, even though it may have a bearing, is not the most crucial factor that determines the shape of societies. Values and inclusion are.

Moreover, if we could predict the shape of societies of the future with the help of a simple calculator,we would have to be plants without free will or robots guided by culture that never changes.

Demography is not the most crucial factor, excluding groups through suspicion and hatred from our culturally diverse societies is a far greater threat than high birth rates.

The demographic argument has its roots in deep fear and is a slap in the face to those Muslims that want to live among our ranks as citizens and consider this continent their rightful home.

  1. Osmo

    My response to that is, they are not afraid of Islam (phobia), but they are starting to understand Islam, whereas they did not know what it was before. They were told that it is just like Christianity or Buddhism or any of the other great religions of the world – it is a peaceful religion. However, they are starting to understand that although there are millions of peaceful Muslims, Islam itself is not a peaceful religion in the sense that Christianity is i.e. Jesus advised his followers NOT to hurt anyone, but to love your neighbor. So, in Christianity LOVE is one of the main tenants, as we are told the God loves us. In Islam, love is not one of the main tenants, in fact when the word is used at all, it is mostly in the negative i.e. what Allah does NOT love.

    Allah had three daughters. Jehovah had a son. The two are not the same. We are not talking about the same god at all if you examine it closely. So Finland already has a God, and to bring in another one in competition with the one they already have, is not smart.

    Getting back to America though, the people are slowly understanding that the Good of Islam is not the God of Christianity and they believe that is why there is war wherever Islam goes. Maybe not right away but eventually. Nothing in the Qur’an supports democracy – Islam and democracy are incompatible. The Americans are starting just now to understand that fact. So they are beginning to resist the encroachment of this religion into American culture and rightly so.

    We do not hate Muslims. We hate the religion. This is not racism. Islam is not a race, it is a theopolitical ideology i.e. politics and religion melted together into one big ball. That is why all countries where Islam is in power you have a form of religious dictatorship – like communism – where you cannot say anything against the government. It is a danger to every free nation in the world.

    • Enrique

      Osmo, do you seriously believe Christianity is a “peaceful” religion? We can talk about theory but in practice it is another story. Is the West peaceful?

      –We do not hate Muslims. We hate the religion.

      Think about this statement and tell me if it leaves the door ajar for dialogue and understanding?

  2. xyz

    We do not hate Muslims. We hate the religion.

    “We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another.”
    Jonathan Swift

    “You cannot hate other people without hating your self”
    Oprah Winfrey

    “I’ve always hated religion. It’s the most guilt-ridden, horrible thing. ‘My God is better than yours, and I’m going to fight you and kill you because of your religion.’ I think it’s just a sick idea. You know how people are color-blind when it comes to other people – I mean, hopefully they are. Well, I’m religious-blind.”
    Linda Eastman McCartney

  3. Osmo

    Well, Linda is gone. Her voice was silenced by God. Freedom of speech is guaranteed by the Christian religion. The Soviets tried to take away religion but that produced a lost generation. You hate religion, fine. The reason must be because you don’t believe that God created you – you did not just appear from nowhere. That is your right. Religion gets the rap for all the wars ever fought. But the real reason for wars lies inside the human nature – not religion. We have an evil disposition, that is constantly thinking up new evil things to put on the people. But religion gets the blame for it all. Religion is used by the powerful to do evil. It is not the religion itself – except for one religion – Islam. There the text actually tells the followers to kill infidels. Christianity does not advocate anyone to go to war against anyone. So, the theory is not valid – it is being spread as hate against peaceful believers in the true God: Jehovah God whose son is Jesus.

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CenRu4jfL3E&fs=1&hl=en_US]

    • Enrique

      –The reason must be because you don’t believe that God created you – you did not just appear from nowhere. That is your right.

      Evolution?

      –But the real reason for wars lies inside the human nature – not religion.

      There is a huge industry in hatred of others. You will find a lot of subcontractors starting from the arms industry, religion and nationalism.

    • Enrique

      It is funny how some Europeans like to speak to nationalistic sometimes neocon-leaning audiences about free speech. Regarding freedom of speech, Europe’s history and its fears come into play. Europeans still have huge issues with ethnicity and racism. Can the same maddness that gripped Europe in the 1930s and 1940s overtake us?

      Some of the biggest “whiners” as some would claim in this blog are those that want to spread exclusion and hatred of other ethnic groups.

  4. Osmo

    How can you dialogue with an ideology that believes that the world belongs to Allah? Could you convince them that maybe it does not? I don’t thinks so. As I said Islam has religion in it, perhaps even good points, but a good part of it is politics and hate against non-Muslims. Could we convince them not to hate us? We don’t have to, most Muslims do not hate – we have no need to dialogue with peaceful Muslims.

    We need to dialogue with radical Muslims, and you will never change their mind unless you can convince them to leave their religion. So much for dialogue – history in the Middle East between Jews and Muslims have shown that it is useless. So what is there to dialogue about? Let’s have peace? Muslim version of peace is that there will only be peace when they are the masters of the world. Yes, they believe in peace – on their terms. All we can do is try to stem the tide of Muslims on our shores and hope they stay in their place, quiet, peaceful and minority. The day they get the majority will be a blood bath. So much for dialogue, and “understanding.” What good did dialogue and understanding do with Hitler? Chamberlain came back from Germany with an agreement of “Peace in our Time.” Finally, talking stopped and action began. Sorry but that is the way I see this dangerous ideology that presents itself as a religion.

    See, I don’t know what you mean by dialogue and understanding of the Taliban or other embedded groups with similar beliefs (from the Qur’an), which can be thought of as “Nazism” to get the thinking on the right path.

  5. Osmo

    -Evolution?

    You don’t really believe in that garbage do you? It is a fairy tale. I have a degree in biology and nowhere, but nowhere could they explain the origins of life to me. They jump ahead and talk about dinosaurs and how we rose up from pond scum. Where did the pond scum come from? How about the first cell. They don’t know. Evolution theory is all false, believe me. God created heaven and earth, period.

    • Enrique

      –You don’t really believe in that garbage do you? It is a fairy tale. I have a degree in biology and nowhere, but nowhere could they explain the origins of life to me.

      Maybe you did not listen closely enough. What decade did you study biology?

  6. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, thanks for bring to subject, by far my favorite one.

    So you are saying it’s all about inslamophobia, isn’t? The whole Europe plus US, the country you use here as example of acceptance. All against Muslims, a trans-Atlantic conspiracy. Brought by who? Jews? Zionists? Ring-wingers? South-Park? Bush?

    And the Muslims, you say they want to live in peace with us. Very well… They want to live in harmony with Christians and Jews, they respects your traditions and values, they respect women rights, they don’t want to implement Sharia, they condemn suicide bombers, they respect the freedom of marriage, they don’t mutilate their little girls, they don’t preach jihad, the books they use in their madrassas, coming from Saud Arabia, are not full of hate, they don’t believe they should show their discontent by burning cars on the streets, they respect freedom of speech…

    Nothing is happening, it’s all media fabrication, isn’t? An mass illusion fuelled by racism and prejudice, isn’t? You have facts to back up all this, don’t you?

    Oh boy, we’re going to have so much fun debating this…

    • Enrique

      –All against Muslims, a trans-Atlantic conspiracy. Brought by who? Jews? Zionists? Ring-wingers? South-Park? Bush?

      This topic is dedicated especially for you. But did I say anything of this. I made a very sensible statement: inclusion is essential to avoid problems that exclusion will bring. Not all Finns adapt to society and they are minority. It would be naive to think that the immigrant community will be 100% adaptable. Think of the margin for error when you accept so many people. Those who dream of “ideal immigrants” are not realistic.

      Another fault in your view of a religious group is you think that cultures live in time warps and people are told what to do in a robotic fashion. Is that how you operate in your culture?

      You speak of Saudi Arabia but let me ask you who is its main defender?

      Inclusion and opportunities is the key.

  7. JusticeDemon

    Osmo, September 20, 2010 at 6:30 am

    -Evolution?

    You don’t really believe in that garbage do you? It is a fairy tale. I have a degree in biology and nowhere, but nowhere could they explain the origins of life to me. They jump ahead and talk about dinosaurs and how we rose up from pond scum. Where did the pond scum come from? How about the first cell. They don’t know. Evolution theory is all false, believe me. God created heaven and earth, period.

    I followed your reasoning (with some reservations) up to the last sentence, but then you seem to have missed out at least one premiss. How did you get from “evolution theory is all false” to “God created heaven and earth”? That’s a little like going from “there are no fish in the Dead Sea” to “there is life on Mars”.

    I’d also like to hear your explanation, as a biologist, of the observed phenomenon of extinction. Does this mean that the total number of species is constantly falling and that no new species can ever emerge?

    Then there is Haldane’s irritating observation that there are no rabbit fossils in the Pre-Cambrian Layer and no evidence at all to support the Flintstones view of natural history in general. As a biologist, you may have some alternative explanation of this observation. If so, then I would certainly like to hear it.

    The overwhelming mainstream view of biologists is that species certainly do become extinct, and that other species that did not exist before somehow come into being at later historical stages to occupy niches vacated by species that have become extinct. When you say “evolution theory is all false”, you seem to be advocating the Flintstones view in the teeth of considerable evidence to the contrary.

    Just in passing, I particularly liked this gem (September 20, 2010 at 5:29 am):

    Freedom of speech is guaranteed by the Christian religion.

    To this, I offer one comment only, and it is merely a name: Galileo Galilei

  8. Tony Garcia

    Ok, let start…

    “You speak of Saudi Arabia but let me ask you who is its main defender?”

    To that I have no argument against and I’m forced to bow to you…

    “Inclusion and opportunities is the key.”

    No quite, today the Jihadists are recruiting not from Ghettos in London but from British colleges and universities. Inclusion and opportunities alone aren’t doing the trick. The Jihad rhetoric is far more appealing to young Muslims than the prospect of a normal working life, and the lack of a strong sense of British identity, brought by multiculturalism, they are easily lured into extremism. It’s very important to notice that it’s not the British red-necks who are pushing them out of the society but the Jihadists who are pulling them out of it.

    “that cultures live in time warps”

    This part is good and we should analyze it carefully. You are right, cultures changes, this is a fact and it can’t be denied, however Islam has already changed quite recently. Last generation has brought to the west the Indian subcontinent’s traditional moderate Sufi Islam, particularly from Pakistan. If you see pictures from Muslims coming to UK they were wearing suit and ties. The next generation has already changed as you say. Today they have embraced the hard-line Wahhabism. While the first generation wear western clouts the next is wearing Arabic clouts and forcing the women to wear Burka, clearing showing a transition from a moderated to a more extreme ideology.

    The question them is – will it change again? Probably yes, but change to what? Will they become more moderated or even more radicalized? How long will this take? Meanwhile, what will happen?

    Those are valid questions and simple call it islamophobia only shows a wiliness to avoid an open debate.

  9. Osmo

    There are a lot of unexplained apparent “appearances” and “extinctions” in the fossil record and we need more data to explain them. I do not claim to be a paleontologist in the sense that I have a thorough knowledge of every creature that ever existed on the planet. All I know for sure is this: life did not simply appear “pop!” out of the inorganic matter in some kind of soup. As you know, chemical reactions proceed in both directions i.e. they can begin to build larger molecules, proteins etc. but they just as easily proceed in the other direction. So there is nothing to show that all the reactions proceeded to the exact spot where life can begin. It will begin to break down long before it gets a chance at “life.” Further, Darwin thought the simplest cell was just like a bag of jelly. Now we know it is a coded system with immense complexity unimagined by Mr. Darwin. There is zero chance it could have been put together by mere chance.

    The answer to many fossil record puzzles have been explained by the Flood story, which is in every single culture on earth. It happened. After the flood, creatures did not grow as large. We have giant sloths etc. before that. Their life spans may have been very long, as the partial pressure of oxygen in the biosphere was greater. Reptiles grew big. After the flood, nothing grew as large, including reptiles. We don’t know everything but we do know that the Bible is right and the scientists, who conveniently throw out data that does not fit, are wrong. Evolution theory fits in perfectly into today’s world, in other words we throw out God and do as we like. We make up a false story to support the whole thing, telling our kids in school that there is no God so do as you like – after all, our scientists know best, don’t believe in that supernatural stuff… This is what they call “freedom” but it is not.

    The Catholic church threw out the teachings of Jesus and brought in their own law. I agree that the Christian religion went through a long repressive period, and truth was thrown out, but the teachings of the Bible did not support their actions.

  10. Osmo

    Tony you are right. Islam is extremely volatile. Just like the bacteria in our bodies. They lay there dormant for a long time, then they can suddenly become disease causing. Islam is the same. That is why we must resist bringing in more Muslims into Finland.

    Today they are suit and tie, the next thing you know they are wearing a beard and crying “Allah Akhbar!” This is what they yell when they murder someone. Just like the Catholic Church in its long history did evil in the name of their religion, so the Muslims are doing evil in the name of theirs today.

    There is only one difference, the Bible did not advocate violence, the Qur’an DOES.

    • Enrique

      –Tony you are right. Islam is extremely volatile. Just like the bacteria in our bodies.

      Hey guys, you HAVE TO joking, right? Or do you recommend that I get a flapjacket, antibodies and sleep with the Bible under my pillow?

  11. Tony Garcia

    Osmo, just checking, you did listen to the Brigitte Grabriel interview I posted here few days ago, didn’t you? Mate, it explains a lot…

  12. Tony Garcia

    Osmo, just to let you know, my wife is a Sunday Scholl coordinator in our church, and she has been for 4 years. She went to several Sunday School trainings courses run by the Methodist circuit. Alongside many guide lines, one that they really stress is never allow Sunday Schools teachers talk about Islam when teaching.

    Now I ask you, do you think madrassas teachers do the same? Do you think they don’t talk about Christians and Jews? If they do, what do you think they say about us?

  13. Klay_Immigrant

    As someone who was born in Qatar and has lived many years in Saudi Arabia because of my father being a guest worker I have first hand experience in what life is like under strict Sharia Islamic law and culture. I’ve even visited Mecca and Medina during the annual Hajj pilgrimage not to pray though as neither my parents or myself are Muslim but just to observe as we already lived in the country.

    Islam as a religion is incompatible in Western society. Why? because it teaches intolerance to any other relgion and culture. This is taught in schools from an early age not just in Islamic countries but in Western countries too in so called ‘faith’ schools. Anyone who is not a Muslim is an ‘infidil’ and of lower standing in life. Already aspects of Sharia law have infiltrated British law such as their banking policies.

    If a Muslim wanted to live under the rules of Islam’s holy book (the Quran), then they are basically volunteering themselves to be excluded from main stream society as it’s immpossible to integrate. Everyone knows that they can’t drink alcohol or eat pork, but they should also not enter establishments where these are sold, so most supermarkets and restaurants are out of bounds or interact with non-muslims. The have to pray five times daily, in Saudi Arabia all the shops and workplaces were shut down in order for that to happen. Women should not be able to drive cars, have to be covered from head to toe, should not be in the company of males who are not of relation and arranged or sometimes forced marriages for sons and daughters. All these principles do not break the law but in order to enforce them you are left in isloation with only other muslims who think the same.

    But there are activities that unfortunately break the law such as multiple marriages, lack of human rights, or violence against the ‘infidels’.

    People who are not worried by the growing number of Muslims are frankly naive. Moderate or non practicing Muslims who do make up the majority are not a threat to Western society. But as the Muslim population rises so too will the number of radical and strict Muslims. It only takes a few extremists to cause destruction and the loss of life to innocent individuals. A growing number also means a growing vote as we live in a democratic society but eventually in decades time when the numbers are big enough democracy may be in itself be in jeopardy as it’s not an Islamic policy.

    In a non-multicultural society these extremists would be much easier to be identified as they would stick out like a sore thumb but in places like Britain or France they could live their lives happily without having to hide in areas where their countrymen make up the majority and non interaction with natives is easily possible.

    In any society there will be young people rebelling. In Western countries that could be having your whole body covered in tattoos, doing drugs, being a drunk party animal everyday. Rebelling in radical Islamic countries and sometimes having the encouragement from family and friends is to be at Jihad with the West, become an extremist and maybe eventually an Islamic ‘martyr’.

    • Enrique

      –Islam as a religion is incompatible in Western society. Why? because it teaches intolerance to any other relgion and culture.

      This is one of the most common statements of the far-right and anti-immigration groups: group x cannot live with us because they are incompatible.

      Your statement is not only empirically correct, it is full of flaws. You believe that cultures don’t change and people are guided like robots without free will.

      In all religions there are all types. Even fundemental Christians are, according to your view, incompatible.

      Nice try but that is not how our societies work. I recommend you take a look at Eugene Fischer’s “pseudo science” of eugenics and how he classified different groups with the magic wand of racism and ignorance.

  14. Osmo

    Hate? What is hateful about the truth? Clint Eastwood once said “you want the truth?” “You can’t handle the truth.” Sometimes the truth sounds like hate but it is not. Unless you are a saint you too hate something. I hate Communism, Nazism and everything that does not stand for freedom and peace. Islam does not stand for freedom and peace, at least in its orthodox teaching, and that is what I am talking about. Don’t be so quick to place yourself in the holier than thou category, as you too do not agree with all religions and political beliefs. If you disagree, do you hate? Hate is a worn out word that no longer has any meaning. Everyone that does not agree with your point of view is guilty of hate. I don’t agree with the homosexual lifestyle, but that does not mean I am guilty of hate. Come on! By your statement, you are intolerant of freedom of speech.

    • Enrique

      Tony, all you are doing is giving me your opinions of a group. What are the solutions if you think that these people preactice a “violent religion.” Why do you think they are pissed off at the West to begin with? Why do you dislike ALL of them?

  15. JusticeDemon

    Osmo, September 20, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    You did not respond to the preliminary question that I asked about extinction and the emergence of new species. Let me put it again much more bluntly: do you think that human beings and dinosaurs roamed the Earth at the same time? This is just another way to express Haldane’s point about rabbits.

    If you answer “yes”, then you are advocating what I have termed the Flintstones view.

    If, on the other hand, you think that homo sapiens emerged after the dinosaurs became extinct, then your initial assertion that “evolution theory is all false” no longer seems tenable.

    We can return to the question of the origin of life after we have agreed on what it means for any form of life to emerge.

    Considering the evident dominance of Reptilia and equally evident scarcity of higher mammals in the Late Triassic-Late Cretaceous fossil range, it seems at least a little surprising that there is no mention at all of the terrible lizards in antediluvian scripture (or any other literature of the period). Dinosaur remains have been found all over the Middle-East, so it’s a bit odd that there is no reference to them.

    On the side note about freedom of expression, you obviously took my point about Galileo Galilei. However your response about corruption in the Roman Church opens up a whole new set of problems, as it was this very organisation that was responsible for selecting the OT and NT canons and giving general shape to mainstream Christian theology on both sides of the Great Schism, both sides of the Reformation and both sides of the Nonconformist divide. Only the Monophysite Coptics come to mind as a denomination that largely escaped this influence.

    You may choose to consider this an accident, but the emergence of freedom of expression closely parallels the decline in ecclesiastical authoritarianism. It is only very recently indeed that many Western nations have liberalised their blasphemy laws, for example. Whitehouse v Lemon is still very much in living memory in the UK.

  16. Klay_Immigrant

    ‘This is one of the most common statements of the far-right and anti-immigration groups: group x cannot live with us because they are incompatible.’

    Enrique tell me what other main religion teaches intolerance and violence against ‘infidels’ to children in their normal schools across the world?

    -‘You believe that cultures don’t change and people are guided like robots without free will.’

    Islam hasn’t changed or evolved since the middle ages. Strict Muslims are guided like robots by laws in the Quran.

    Enrique you come up with views and preferences first without ever thinking about the pros and cons. Then when somebody like Tony or I tell you the flaws provided by evidence or stats you still close your eyes to them. The dictator’s way of doing things. Wake up, smell the music and stop being so naive and stubborn.

    Unlike you I look at the pros and cons of a subject or matter first then formulate my ideas and views. I challenge people to show me why with evidence, proof or stats why I’m wrong to think that way. The scientist’s way of doing things

    • Enrique

      –Enrique tell me what other main religion teaches intolerance and violence against ‘infidels’ to children in their normal schools across the world?

      There are all types in every religion. Ever heard of the Inquisition? What about killing other people in the name of country and Christ? In many religions there is the same message but done differently. And we have to look at the deeds not only the theory. But again I believe your over-generalization about a religious group cannot include everyone. Remember what I said: exclusion and prejudice are dangers. We are also at war with Iraq, Afghanistan and who knows else. If we were having this discussion in the 1940s, we’d be taking about the Germans and Japanese in the same fashion.

      Are all Germans and Japanese “monsters?” Of course not!

      –Islam hasn’t changed or evolved since the middle ages.

      Wow, why don’t you write a doctoral dissertation and be the first to show how a religion has stayed in a time warp since the middle ages. Sorry for being sarcastic, but you cannot claim such a thing because your conclusion is flawed. Everything changes. That is the law of physics. Cultures and religions change as well.

  17. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘There are all types in every religion. Ever heard of the Inquisition? What about killing other people in the name of country and Christ?’

    Enrique I’m talking about having whole countries or ‘faith’ schools in Western countries who in their main curriculum teaches intolerance to other religions and cultures to children in schools. So that’s the huge majority in Islamic countries or all in these ‘faith’ schools in Western countries. No other main religion does that. You may have tiny cults dotted around the world like that guy who threatened to burn the Quran but they don’t go out of their way to spread their word around the world and are usually non violent.

    -‘If we were having this discussion in the 1940s, we’d be taking about the Germans and Japanese in the same fashion.’

    But we aren’t in the 1940’s when various Western countries were under dictarship just as we are not in the late 19th century or early 20th century when talking about migration of people when Argentina was a World power and various Empires ruled the world, or the 1980’s when Eastern Europe was full of communists. Times change. I’m talking about the present and future, so let’s stick to that.

    ‘Everything changes. That is the law of physics. Cultures and religions change as well.’

    You’re wrong, some things and some people refuse to change. Islam is an example. When you have somebody thrown into jail and sentenced to many slashings for calling a teddy bear Mohammad or when a woman was was gangraped receives a longer jail sentence than her perpetrators because she shouldn’t have been alone with them then that doesn’t sound like a religion that has evolved much from the middle ages. These sentences weren’t the act of some crazy loonies but judges who acted in the name of Islamic law in whole countries. Are you telling me these practises are normal in modern society Enrique?

    Honour killings, forced marriages, the covering of women’s faces and body, terrorism have already been brought to Europe by these people. What next?

  18. Klay_Immigrant

    I don’t give a flying monkey what Muslims do in their own countries. They can continue to rot in their backwards uncivilised society. That’s why I was against the war in Iraq. Unless a direct security threat no action should be taken. But when they start to bring their barbaric medieval practises and philosophy to Europe then that’s when it needs to be pushed out back to their hellhole.

  19. JusticeDemon

    Osmo, September 20, 2010 at 4:20 am

    Just spotted this gem:

    Allah had three daughters. Jehovah had a son. The two are not the same. We are not talking about the same god at all if you examine it closely. So Finland already has a God, and to bring in another one in competition with the one they already have, is not smart.

    Getting back to America though, the people are slowly understanding that the Good of Islam is not the God of Christianity …

    Just out of interest, where does Abraham the father of Isaac and Ishmael, fit into this reasoning?

    And who was the God of Nuh, Musa, Dawud, Sulayman, Dhul-Kifi, Zakariyya, Yahya and even Isa for that matter? Note that the last of this list claimed a specific connection to all the others. Also note that you know all of them by different transliterations of their names.

    As you said:

    Finland already has a God, and to bring in another one in competition with the one they already have, is not smart.

    And His name is Ukko, creator of Ilmatar.

    Bishop Henry was obviously not smart…

    and I’m still undecided about you.

  20. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, thanks for the link, unfortunately my Finnish is not up the the task so I’m able to find the part where they found the criminals and the motive has been established.

    However I see that Chehab is giving his opinion about the case, you know, my memory is not as good as it used to be, wasn’t Chehab advocating the Finnish laws should be changed so a 80 years old man could marriage a 12 years old girl? Nah… probably not, he wouldn’t ever say this, would he?

  21. Tony Garcia

    So, once it’s all about my “opinion” let give a bit more…

    They are pissed with us, that explain it all, doesn’t? Talking about simplistic explanations…

    Muslims today enjoy the full protection of the law, they go to universities, buy houses, open business, etc, but we could talk about a group with has faced real oppression, couldn’t we? Blacks before the civil rights movement.

    They really suffered and were literally a living apart of the American society without rights or protection. What came from that? The Civil Rights movement. But why is this important and how it relates to Muslims today? Simple, during that time they are calling to have the same rights than whites, fair enough, but why? What were their reasons? Simple, they were all Americans. Even the most radical group, the Black Panthers, never argued against this. The blacks were first and foremost Americans, everything else was secondary. Their sense of bellowing, and where their place were, was stronger than ever.

    Now let see the so called “oppressed” Muslims. If you listen to any Muslim extremist in the UK they all say the same, they are Muslims, everything else is irrelevant. Some goes even further saying that being Muslim and British is incompatible. They also show a clear sense of bellowing, although a quite different one.

    Let’s se an example. Few years ago, during the one of those Africa Aid events, Tony Blair has pledged to forgive all the African debt, I saw a BBC report asking black Americans what they think about it, all said the same, they were sympathetic with the Africa’s problems but they had enough problems at home.

    Now we see the “explanation” for the Fort Hood shooting, Muslins are distressed because they are sent to fight against their brothers in Muslims lands.

    Here we clearly see a difference between the two groups, what they think they are and where they see their real home is. We can also see that both groups are having a very different outcome.

    What conclusion we draw from this? Oppression, or let say “oppression”, is not the reason for extremism. There is something else dragging those young Muslims. Culture perhaps? Religion maybe? Lack of bellowing brought up by multiculturalism?

    As we see the real oppressed blacks have produced the Civil Rights movement and Martin Luther King (What was his job?)

    The pseudo oppressed Muslims have produced suicide bombers and Abu Hamza.

  22. Osmo

    I agree. You asked perhaps the reason is religion. I know how unpopular it is to state that ANY religion should be fingered as the culprit in violence, but in this case it is true: Islam’s core belief is that the world belongs to Allah. This is indisputable. It is just as provable as for example the Communist International, or Communist Manifesto, or Mein Kampf – all of which state that their aims are to conquer the earth for their beliefs. Why do we get so much resistance when we point out the same aims in the Qur
    an – the Muslim holy book? The answer is simple, we are brainwashed that all religions must be peaceful, as that is the nature of religion. This is false. Islam is religion, politics and military all rolled into one. It tells the faithful what to do to make the world Muslim. That is the truth and if it is hard to swallow, that is not my problem. The truth is very hard to accept because we can see where it will inevitably lead – catastrophe. But the sooner we accept it, the sooner we can head off what is coming. But, the so-called Progressive Liberals are the problem because they refuse to accept the truth. Look what happened in the Soviet Union because nobody was willing to face the truth. The “truth” was what the party said it was, and usually it was a lie. So, all those who insist on propagating the lie that Islam means peace and everything is sweet, and rosy, and we can coexist with Muslims, are taking the world closer to an all-out war between Islam and the Infidels. There are peaceful Muslims but Islam is not, and has never been, peaceful. It has always chopped its way to success. It was a real vegematic, heads rolling in all directions, whipping out almost all Jews and Christians off the Arabian Peninsula. They conquered all the countries from North Africa to Indonesia by force, destroying the ancient Egyptian language in the process. This is the “peaceful” religion of Islam. Is it hate to speak the truth, or should we hide? Finns do not hide.

  23. Osmo

    Ukko is the god of a few Finns, not the nation.
    Abraham was the father of Isaac and Ishmael, but the Ishmaelites were predicted to be a warlike people. Abraham was their father, not their god. Abraham’s descendants followed Jehovah, but Ishmael’s decendents followed the moon god Allah, part of the 360 gods that the Ishmaelites worshipped in the Kabbah, that black building. Muhammad, got rid of all the other gods and kept Allah. The moon is still the symbol of the Ishmaelites. Does that help you understand the difference between the Muslim god and the Christian God?

  24. xyz

    Personally, I don’t care since I am not interested in religion. If there is something which is called “God” then I think it is the same for all monotheistic religions. There are just different ways to believe in a “God”.

  25. JusticeDemon

    Osmo

    You are being deliberately obtuse. Ukko was the supreme God of the Finns before Bishop Henry stuck his oar in the water. By your own logic, therefore, Bishop Henry was not smart. But I suspect you already know this.

    The point remains that there is a long list of prophets common to Islam, Judaism and Christianity, and by your reasoning they were all schizophrenic about the identity of their God.

    Your analysis puts me in mind of the Deutsche Christen.

    May we assume that you have abandoned your tirade against evolution?

  26. Osmo

    JusticeDemon

    -You did not respond to the preliminary question that I asked about extinction and the emergence of new species. Let me put it again much more bluntly: do you think that human beings and dinosaurs roamed the Earth at the same time? This is just another way to express Haldane’s point about rabbits.

    Did you know that dinosaur and human footprints were found in the same layer? I personally do not trust the whole timeline puzzle that Evolution Theory puts forward. There are many holes in it. I will show you what I mean. To diverge for a second:

    I believe that where we came from is a fundamental premise on which we base our lives. To believe that 1) We were created by an accidental combination of chemicals and, 2) There is no loving God, are the two main beliefs that determine who you are, and almost every other thing about your life, your aspirations, your ultimate destiny, your daily life. To open the door to other world views, such as another god, one who doesn’t care a hoot about you, (talking about Love here) except that you follow certain traditions, such as praying five times a day etc. Do this, do that, and if you do, you might go to heaven, kill somebody for Allah and you get there immediately…Finland has had great success with the God they already have, to mess around inviting other ones into the country can destroy the nation, just as a bad apple can spoil a whole barrel. Finland already has a lot of problems, we do not need to IMVITE more.

    Now, back to Evolution vs. Creationism. And thank you for asking again to continue this discussion about your question that shows great intelligence.
    May I direct you to a resource that may answer your question better than myself. It is very good and I would be interested in your opinion on it. Go to:
    http://www.swrc.com/ministry/schedule/archives2009.html
    Listen to May 25 and May 26 with an open mind and let me know what you think. It answers many of my questions and hopefully yours.

  27. Osmo

    JusticeDemon

    Certainly, Islam took for themselves the prophets of the Bible, such as Moses and Abraham et al. But my point is that Abraham disowned Ishmael, the product of not trusting God for a son. Of course Ishmael was from Abraham’s Egyptian servant, thus Isaac and Ishmael were half brothers. From the very start, Ishmael began to abuse Isaac. Abraham had to drive him away into the desert as there could be no peace in his household. His descendants have done the same to Abraham’s progeny, and this has been going on for thousands of years, and it will never stop. The current disputes are just continuations of the old ones.

  28. JusticeDemon

    Osmo

    Did you know that dinosaur and human footprints were found in the same layer?

    I would be highly curious to know precisely where that find occurred and how it was verified, but anyway it sounds like you really are advocating the Flintstones view. Why not just say so in so many words?

    If you are advocating the Flintstones view, then I suppose the next question must concern the age of the Earth in modern units of time. The current scientific view of this is that the great dinosaurs died out in the Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event about 65 million years ago. Would you then, as a biologist, say that Homo sapiens has existed as a living species for this long?

    Regarding your digression, this is several logical steps away from the question of whether new species can and do emerge. You said (September 20, 2010 at 6:30 am) that “Evolution theory is all false”, and I am calling you on that all. The Flintstones view is one very obvious and direct consequence of denying that new species emerge. It means that every single species that has ever existed was present at some specific common point in past time: trilobites and mammals together.

    Is that your view and if so, then when do you think the great dinosaurs became extinct? These are very simple questions.

  29. JusticeDemon

    Osmo

    Tricky to recognise and venerate a very long succession of common and vehemently monotheist prophets but not have the same God…

    That’s like recognising and venerating a very long succession of common literary heroes (e.g. from Chaucer to Dickens) while somehow arguing that Canadians and Australians speak a fundamentally different language.

    A precisely parallel argument could be made for the view that the Gods of Christianity and Judaism are different. A related argument could also be made for the view that the God of the Finnish Evangelical-Lutheran church cannot be the same as the God of the Roman Catholic church, because the noun Jumala refers to a sky god of the ancient Finnic-speaking peoples and not to any Semitic source at all.

  30. Osmo

    Not all gods are the same. This is a self evident fact. If their attributes are the same, they are the same god. If they are different, they are not the same. The God of Christianity and the God of Judaism have the same attributes. Both the New and Old Testaments are accepted by Christians, but only the Old Testament is accepted by Jews. The two are intertwined together. For example the God of both cannot lie, both Gods were the creators of heaven and earth etc. By contrast the Islamic god Allah is one of more than one creator. Check this out, from a book that claims Allah is the only god. “Allah is the best of all creators Koran 23:14; 37:125”

    So what I am saying is that superficially, all gods are the same. The American Indians’ “Great Spirit” the Finno-Ugric Jumala (Fin.), Jumo (Mari) etc. and we like to think that they all refer to one entity. And I believe they do, but the ancients did not have a clue as to what the attributes were. Did this god demand human sacrifices? Was he responsible for the harvest, good or bad? They didn’t know for sure. When you analyze them, there are differences. Somehow or other, God found a way to make Himself known to man: who He is and what His attributes are, in detail. The Koran, although it is supposedly in support of the Bible, was actually a rebuttal. So Ishmael is god’s chosen, not Isaac, Jesus did not die on the cross, it was an impostor etc. etc. It repudiates much of it, but claims to accept it. It basically says that the Bible is lying. Which book is the truth, the Bible or the Qur’an? One is from God, the other from Satan? We must decide. The decision will determine our future. Both cannot be true, logically, but both could be false.

    The prophets in common are from Abraham back, all of which were recorded by the forefathers of the Jews. Muslims got most of it from the Old Testament, and claimed them as their own. Since Muslims hate the Jews, I can’t understand why the claim those Jewish prophets as theirs.

    • Enrique

      Osmo, do you know what is wrong with this discussion? You do not have a Muslim giving his view of things. And it would probably be vastly different from yours. It is a bit like stating that there is no racism against blacks and being white.

  31. Tiwaz

    Tony:
    “Enrique, thanks for the link, unfortunately my Finnish is not up the the task so I’m able to find the part where they found the criminals and the motive has been established. ”

    Perhaps because they have not been found.
    Enrique again conveniently also forgot to mention that this same article included mention on how one of the holy houses of Jehovah’s witnesses has been burnt.

    Along with forgetting the other FINNISH religious buildings which have been targets of vandalism and arson.

    Why deal with facts (that there is notable anti-religious sentiment in some groups) when you can conveniently lie that it is all about racism!

    Is it wonder that there can be no proper debate or dialogue with multiculturalists when they insist to cling to lies and half-truths?

  32. Tony Garcia

    Thanks Tiwaz for that, it’s good to have another Finnish speaker around so we can always have a “second opinion”.

    BTW I’m a bit disappointed in you. I read a comment of yours some time ago where you say that you are warming up to vote True Finns? Warming up? You should be boiling hot, not only to vote for them but also to campaign on their behalf.

    This election may be one in a life time, don’t waste it…

  33. JusticeDemon

    Osmo

    I assume that your knowledge of the Qur’an is based on a personal reading (although that line about creators is on the same exegetical level as the classic reference to Psalm 14:1). Perhaps as a starting point for the character of Allah you could remind us of how every sura begins (except At-Tawba, which is interesting in itself) and how often the same formula is repeated elsewhere in the text. Then we might search for the OT equivalent. Of course, part of your problem here is that the selection of OT (and NT) books was made by that sinful Catholic Church.

    It does occur to me that Ukko, as one who delegated the creation of everything to Ilmatar, must be a more powerful creator than Jahweh, who had to do the job in person and then left two incompatible drafts of the project report. Of course none of them can hold a candle to the Cartesian ontological God, but that’s a bit too sterile when it comes to discussing desirable attributes like “masculinity”.

    An exercise of this kind is open to a certain degree of ridicule along the lines of My imaginary friend is bigger/stronger/smarter than your imaginary friend, but that need not worry us for now.

    You were going to tell us the age of the Earth in modern units of time…

  34. Osmo

    The age of the earth according to some Bible scholars is about 6000 years, you may already have heard that number before. I do not think that we can determine the age of the earth from the genealogy of the Bible, i.e. adding up the lives of the generations of Adam.

    I don’t believe in the above any more than I believe in the idea that dinosaurs became extinct some 60 or 70 million years ago, necessarily. If dinosaurs became extinct that many years ago, then they coexisted with man. This presents a big problem as we are told that since evolution is true, dinosaurs were our ancestors.

    I believe the timeline after Adam to be accurate but not necessarily the events before. What about the dinosaur tracks and human tracks in the same strata? How do you account for the extinctions of the dinosaurs? Trilobites? What about the various ages of the earth and its geology? Hundreds of layers of different minerals and rocks? Were they just created suddenly – puff? These are questions that also linger in my mind, as in yours probably. But I do not simply turn my mind over to other men who believe they have all the answers, I try to keep an inquiring mind and even learn something from you.

    However, the Bible does say that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. God created the heaven and earth in 6 “days.” To me, a day represents a period of time, which is not 24 hours. This allows for more time, just how much we do not know and I don’t believe any Biblical scholar has pin-pointed the exact age of the earth from the scriptures.
    So, I will reserve my opinion on the true age of the earth for now until I do a bit more research.

  35. Osmo

    Re: two incompatible drafts (Allah and Jaweh)

    Most of the scripture in the Bible was by inspiration of God. Moses got the Ten Commandments from Him directly.
    The Qur’an was supposedly dictated by a being claiming to be the angel Gabriel. This being may well have been Satan (fallen angel) impersonating another angel. It is entirely possible that Muhammad did receive information supernaturally, but it was not from Jaweh or the God of Abraham. Jaweh, for example, would never council anyone to lie. Allah allows it to advance Islam, and every true believer in Allah will tell you lies to advance the cause. If they are in government, what does that mean? It means we must never have Muslims in government.

  36. Osmo

    Islamophobia is a term that is supposed to convict anyone who is opposed to the teachings of Muhammed. His teachings are full of things we SHOULD be afraid of, and not considering them is remiss. We should all know what Islam is all about, not just the nice stuff, but the bad stuff as well. The FBI are taught the things they should know when going into a mosque or dealing with “radical” (true blue) Islam. The rest of us get the sugar coated version. “Islam means Peace” – it doesn’t, it means submission) Yes, we all have a duty to be careful, now that we have been shown there is something to be careful about.

  37. JusticeDemon

    I shall return to these themes in a few days, but for now let me correct a clear misconception. I referred at September 24, 2010 at 10:19 am to two incompatible drafts in the context of the creation story:

    …Ukko, as one who delegated the creation of everything to Ilmatar, must be a more powerful creator than Jahweh, who had to do the job in person and then left two incompatible drafts of the project report.

    You will find those two incompatible drafts left by Jahweh in Genesis 1-2:3 and in Genesis 2:4-2:25. The two drafts must necessarily refer to the same project, but in the first draft human beings, both male and female, are created together last of all. In the second draft, on the other hand, man is created before the plants and animals and a solemn commandment is issued. Man also has time to name all of the animals and birds one by one (long project!) before woman is finally brought into being from one of man’s ribs.

    This also caught my eye in your post of September 29, 2010 at 6:00 pm:

    …we are told that since evolution is true, dinosaurs were our ancestors.

    When and where did you study biology?

  38. Osmo

    University of Victoria BC Canada, (bachelor’s degree) about thirty years ago. The biology 100 professor sold me on biology when he said, “why study biology? To get a philosophy of life.” I thought, well I have always had all the animals, birds, and fish as my friends (except when I caught them and ate them, lol). So I did that for four years and had a great time.

    I do not practice biology as a profession. I am in civil engineering (bridges and highways). So that is my background, how about you. You seem to be quite well rounded in your knowledge of biology, anthropoloty and perhaps theology?

  39. JusticeDemon

    Even in 1960s secondary school biology it was a howler of the highest order to claim that mammals evolved from dinosaurs. Teachers would try to elicit such answers in order to verify that their students had understood the basic concepts of evolutionary theory.

    It’s really not credible to argue that Therapsids were dinosaurs in any intelligible sense.

    This was before substantial evidence (i.e. a bit more than Archaeopteryx) emerged to indicate a link between modern birds and theropod dinosaurs.

    Not that it’s relevant (but I suppose I opened the door), my background is in physical sciences and analytical philosophy, including the philosophy of religion.

    I don’t like to put labels on things too hastily, but you seem to be drifting towards the Day-Age creationist view. This has always seemed a bit odd to me in view of the formula expressed in Genesis 1:5 and used repeatedly thereafter, but I suppose this just illustrates that even very basic and universal concepts like day, evening and morning can be adjusted to fit some overriding idea of the purpose of a scripture.

    Even Day-Age creationism relies on things happening in the same order, however, so you might like to think about how you are going to reconcile those two project reports within a consistent exegetical policy.

  40. JusticeDemon

    Hannu

    There was a time when the average biker could fix his own motorbike using basic home garage tools. That’s not really possible anymore nowadays, but the average biker can still reasonably assume that the servicing mechanic is just an average guy with some special training. Most bikers still have a basic understanding of how an engine works, even if they wouldn’t dare to brandish a spanner in the direction of their own highly-tuned and temperamental machines. They don’t assume that the bike works by magic.

    It’s not hard to imagine the next stage of technical development: a world where the average biker has no idea at all of how the machine works, and relies entirely on highly sophisticated specialists to keep it working and fix it when it fails.

    We could challenge such a new-age biker by suggesting that the bike does in fact work by magic and that the specialists are really wizards who are involved in a grand evil scheme to suck all of the magical power out of the biker and use it for their own nefarious ends. This challenge exploits the situation of the biker as someone who is unable to understand how the bike works and who takes the word of the specialist entirely on trust.

    When the specialist tries to explain that the bike works in accordance with electromechanical principles, we can pick holes in the explanation by pointing out that the specialist has not fully explained the fundamental phenomenon of action at a distance, and that therefore (spot the huge logical leap) the electromechanical explanation must be wholly false and the bike really works by magic. The biker is caught in the middle of this debate, not really understanding anything except, perhaps, that the specialist is a geek.

    It is at this point that the snake oil salesman enters the frame, seeking to enlist political support (votes, money) for the view that magic should be taught in technical colleges alongside physics and engineering, and that qualified wizards should be employed in the automotive industry to ensure that magic is only used for beneficial purposes.

  41. Hannu

    But now you are bigoted and narrow minded and anticyclistphobist! You should just understand and tolerate them and of course there should be magic in schools and wizards in industry, its part of cyclist culture 😉

  42. Osmo

    What I really meant was that mammals evolved, period. What they evolved from is not the point – we all know that dinosaurs were a dead end. Their ancestor reptiles, were supposed to be the ancestors of mammals.

  43. Osmo

    Creationism is not magic. According to your view, we will one day find out how the atom was constructed out of energy, and we will be able to create atoms. Also, according to your view, we will be able to create life, since it is just a matter of finding out how to do it.
    This view is absurd, as the billions of genetic components cannot be made by man in a way that will produce life. I reject your view. The tiniest cell is millions of times more complex than a motorcycle. One might well wonder how it was put together as it appears to have been done by some superior intelligence far beyond our grasp, in fact so far that we arrogantly believe that we too (like God) can create anything, we too can fix anything. Billions of dollars have been spent to find a cure for cancer. The results are almost zero. Yet, thousands of people have been cured of “incurable” diseases by the power of God. So much for our body mechanics who think they know everything. If this is not “magic” (supernatural) then what is it?

  44. JusticeDemon

    Osmo

    I think you missed the point of my parable, which was about garnering political support by exploiting human alienation from technology.

    The Church has offered a long line of hostages to fortune in its dealings with scientific enquiry over the centuries, successively claiming the cosmic impossibility of achievements that have subsequently come to pass and the absolutely indissoluble mystery of phenomena that have subsequently been fully explained. Most famously with the denial of heliocentrism, but also with the alleged supernatural origin of diseases, there have been several such lines in the sand.

    I suggest that you reflect on the essence of your view and ask yourself the basic positivist question: what kind of event would conclusively falsify my position?

    Do you really think that you would simply shrug your shoulders and say oh well, church on Sundays has been a waste of time if someone cooked up a living bacterium from primordial soup chemical components tomorrow? I think you would merely incorporate the new achievement into your world view much as heliocentrism was accepted in Rome. The Church that forced Galileo Galilei to recant established its own astronomical observatory in 1891.

    I know you are positively itching to discuss the junkyard tornado view, as you keep alluding to it, and I might begin by paraphrasing your own words and setting them into a framework suggested by Douglas Adams:

    The tiniest puddle of water is millions of times more complex than a motorcycle. One might well wonder how the puddle comes to fit so extremely precisely into its hole in the ground, as this appears to have been done by some superior intelligence far beyond our grasp…

    Well, why DOES the shape of the puddle so precisely match the shape of the hole that it sits in? Surely all of those billions of atoms could not have assumed exactly the right shape by chance! Someone must have arranged those atoms in that specific configuration.

    After you’ve thought about this for a while, Google Hoyle’s fallacy and see what you find.

    We can return to the two incompatible project reports later.

  45. JusticeDemon

    Osmo

    I think the point is that the Venter Institute created a new species using an entirely artificial procedure. That species was not around in antedilivian times. This demonstrates that there is no foundation for the Flintstones view of natural history in absolute physical necessity. If new species cannot come into being naturally, then this is not because the existence of such species is physically impossible.

  46. Erik

    Well first of all, I am Atheist. I don’t care about any relegion. What I don’t understand is why Muslims are doing what they’re doing? What I mean is… from the moment that you move to another country that is different from yours you should cast aside all the things you used to do in your country because simply you are not in your country anymore. Respect the locals and their way of life. If you don’t like it, then simply don’t come. It’s funny how they force all the European women that are visiting this hardcore muslim countries to wear this hijab or how it’s called I don’t know. And if your hair is not covered then they might even arrest you. OKAY FAIR ENOUGH… do that, since I’m in your territory that’s fine by me… but when YOU are on my territory do as I like, do not wear this on your head cause simply we-our community doesn’t like it.

    As I said before, I am not racist and I am not religious. I am generally against any kind of religious brainwashing that is done to people… be it Christians or Muslims. Also before anybody will call me racist, just to let you know I am not… I also moved from Greece to a foreign country… within EU of course but the difference is that I am trying to respect and understand the locals by doing things the way they do. I leave all my traditions and culture at home… otherwise if you want to keep them then stay in your own country.

  47. JusticeDemon

    What steps do you take to hide your origins and cultural heritage, Erik? Do you avoid speaking Greek to your spouse or children? Have you renounced support for the Greek national football/basketball/tavli team, or do you merely pretend not to notice its achievements? Have you cut yourself off from the Greek national political scene, with no insider opinion on its current state of turmoil over external debt? Have you cut off all contact with your relatives in Greece?

    Most importantly of all, do you regard the contributions of Greek people to the lives of people in the country where you now live as an enrichment or as cultural pollution?

    And finally, where do you think the Parthenon Marbles belong? This question is particularly important if you live in the UK and your goal is full assimilation, as there is only one correct answer.

  48. Erik

    Well actually I can’t understand your point. All these things you mentioned, what they have to do with the topic? Of course when people will ask me where I am from I will tell them that I am Greek and trust me I’m proud of it… of course I will support my football team and keep in touch with my relatives in Greece. But that doesn’t prevent me of trying to adjust into the society I am living in.

    According to you if I move to a foreign country I should refuse speaking the local country, should demand Christian churches to be build, will ask for Greek schools and celebrate all my national celebrations etc… the list is long.

    Don’t misunderstand me, I would still be a foreigner to the country I was not born and I would not pretend to be native… but I would try to respect and try to act the way the locals do. At least that’s what I’m trying to do… now if I succeed or no is another story. And of course I’m not saying that it all easy, it takes time and effort, and to be more fair I don’t think that all the Greeks are doing or thinking the same way as me. My beliefs are personal, but I believe that every nation should do the same when trying to integrate with another.

    I’m saying that because as I mentioned before right now I’m living in Holland. If you would ever visit this country you would realize that this problem here is huge… I don’t know for sure about the percentage of immigrants but from what I’ve got simply by observing in Amsterdam almost 50% are foreigners. While some of them have adjusted pretty good most are simply refusing doing that. Simply by walking on the streets you would see Marocan young people acting like they’re in a ghetto in Los Angeles. All the time robbing, and even humiliate the locals and please don’t tell me that it’s just exaggeration by the media or I’m just a native Dutch racist… because I’ve seen that in front of my eyes and I am not Dutch aswell.

    • Enrique

      –According to you if I move to a foreign country I should refuse speaking the local country, should demand Christian churches to be build, will ask for Greek schools and celebrate all my national celebrations etc… the list is long.

      Why is this an important point? Are you stating that other groups should not demand these things because you don’t want them? Do you consider yourself an immigrant in Holland?

  49. JusticeDemon

    Erik

    Why shouldn’t people from Morocco be equally able to say so, to feel pride in their culture and heritage, to support their national football team and stay in touch with their relatives? How does any of this prevent their adjustment to living in A’dam?

    Nobody is condoning lawbreaking. Your objection to street crime implies that this is perpetrated by immigrants only, as opposed to disaffected young people, substance abusers or a social underclass. You also seem to object to entirely lawful behaviour such as congregating in public places, simply because it is not your custom to do likewise.

    Dutch law does not require individuals to adhere to any particular religion. It does not require members of the general public to adopt any particular style of clothing, nor does it seek to ban any particular type of attire. It does not ban the use of foreign languages in public places and it allows access to such places by people of all skin tones. If these things make you feel uncomfortable, then that is your problem and you must deal with it as part of the price of living in a free society.

    Just out of interest, how did you determine merely by observing that half of the people in Amsterdam are foreigners? If you saw these guys in the street, how many of them would you judge to be foreigners?

  50. Erik

    Also to get more on topic I just want to make this comment.

    Religion is opium of the people!!! All it does is simply brainwashing to believe in something that doesn’t really exists or there’s no proof of it’s existance. It tells you simply to follow blindly without questioning.

    No matter what religion we’re talking about, they all suck. I saw once a research saying that if it wasn’t about religion humanity would’ve advance and develop much faster. Whether it would technology, biology, astronomy, pharmaceutical industry and so on

    Religion is simply a way to manipulate the masses.

    I am so glad and happy to see that year by year there are more people awakening. By awakening I mean that more and more people are denying any kind of religion and become Atheists.

    To all the people that are of opinion of “Prove me that God doesn’t exist” I have the answer…

    http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8697/14223275.jpg

    http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6470/87129852.jpg

    http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8517/41508849.jpg

    http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9121/80989653.jpg

  51. Erik

    Well yes of course… a legal EU immigrant though, however I could also categorize myself simply as a student but I’m not doing that because I might stay in the Netherlands.

    I mean dispite the circumstances I am still an original European.

  52. Osmo

    Atheism has been tried in most Communist countries and it has been a disaster. They welcomed Christians in when the USSR collapsed because they saw what it had done to their country. The people became alcoholics, and the state promoted the sale of alcohol. Now, is that better than Christianity? You have to replace it with something!

    More to the point of the topic, Islam is the major problem in the world today, not Islamophobia.

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFuJz0hA5rc&fs=1&hl=en_US]

    • Enrique

      Osmo, what is your point with this clip? Could you tell everyone what hotair.com and especially what jihadwatch.com is. In all fairness you should tell our bloggers what kinds of clips you are putting and what type of ideology they represent. Islamophobic? Strongly so.

  53. Klay_Immigrant

    I must admit the day Turkey is allowed into the EU will be the day when Europe will go into free fall. Only Germany will have a larger population. The eqivalent would be for Isreal to join the Arab League, totally unworkable and naive.

    EU member states must unanimously agree on Turkey’s membership for the Turkish accession to be successful so hopefully that will never happen as such countries as Austria and France are strongly against it.

    • Enrique

      Yes, Klay, two “exemplary” countries: Austria and France. What kind of a place would Europe be if we let the French work out interethnic relations?

      Why are you against their entry in the EU? Is it because of their human rights record or because they belong to a certain religious group. If you have time, read about how the Ottoman Empire handled healthy religious and ethnic relations until about the mid-nineteenth century. As is usually the case, the stronger group started to call the cultural shots which in turn led to atrocities like the genocide of the Armenians.

  54. Osmo

    The point with the clip is that “Islamophobia” which has a negative connotation, may actually be an adaptive response to what everyone knows is going on around the world: the attack of the Islamic world on infidels around the world, not just America. There is some justification for it, just as there was for Nazism, Communism etc. which no longer seem to be a major threat militarily. Now it is Islam itself, not just the radical elements necessarily, as this clip shows, it is throughout the religion, and is taught to every Muslim. The ideology this clip represents is exactly what this discussion is about i.e. “Islamization and Islamophobia in Europe and Finland.” So if this subject interests you, you might want to watch this clip.

    • Enrique

      Osmo, in the first place a religion is a different thing than a political movement. But I understsand: we must always have an enemy to justify military spending, strengthen our exclusion of others. I am happy that Canad, the country you live in, does not even consider these options. Do you think Stephen Harper watches Jihad Watch?

      On your site you give a lot of information about the Winter War. Why is there little to nothing on the Continuation War (1941-44)? What do you think about Finland’s involvment in it?

  55. Tony Garcia

    “Yes, Klay, two “exemplary” countries: Austria and France.”

    Really? Well…why there are so many Africans trying to go to France?

    • Enrique

      Hi procureinsights, apologies for not welcoming you earlier to Migrant Tales. I was out of the country and on a long-overdue holiday! Just like the persecution that the Jews saw in the past in Europe, it is the same story being hashed out with different victims. I was pretty shocked to see this video put out by the Greater Los Angeles Area office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-LA). But there are examples of courage against this type of media onslaught found too commonly. JusticeDemon sent the following link. Thank you JusticeDemon!

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