Irish Examiner: Anti-immigrant or racist political rhetoric ‘must not go unchecked’

by , under All categories, Enrique

Comment: Compared with Finland, Ireland appears like a distant world when it comes to anti-immigration groups and their hate rhetoric.  

Both countries have seen a lot of emigration since the nineteenth century. In Finland over a million people emigrated to other parts of the world during 1860-1999. A study in 1978 showed that since 1820 over 4.723 million people emigrated to the U.S. from Ireland alone. 

Apart from such similarities, there is one big difference: Ireland lacks an anti-immigration party whereas Finland has the Perussuomalaiset (PS), which became the third-biggest party in the April election.  

There may be many reasons why Ireland doesn’t have an anti-immigration party. One of these could be tolerance. In Ireland such anti-social behavior isn’t seen favorably by politicians and the public while in Finland it is. 

How many politicians would be forced to resign in Finland if they followed Ireland’s example? The Irish Examiner writes: “Last November, Mr [Darren]  Scully was forced to resign as mayor of Naas, after saying he would no longer deal with, as he described them, bad-mannered, aggressive, black Africans. The party has not taken any decisive action.” 

If we cited the comments made by many Finns concerning the death of a Somali in Oulu this week, we could conclude that too many think that racism is acceptable.

To show how serious the problem is in Finland, a Finnish-language teacher I spoke with on Saturday from Kouvola said that no politician would ever carry a sign in public stating that we should give more financial support to refugees and immigrants. 

One important lesson that we could learn from Ireland is that racism must be seen as something unacceptable in our society. 

Why? Because it is a direct threat to our society, our values and our common sense of decency. 

Racist political rhetoric must not go unchecked. 

___________

By Jennifer Hough

An example needs to be made of politicians who make negative comments about immigrants if Ireland is to avoid going down a route of an “accepted rhetoric or racism”, Integration Ireland has warned.

Read whole story.

  1. depressed n Worried immigrant

    The comments made about the deceased somali youngster shows you in what state finland is right now. racism is rampant in finland. Why would a politican speak sgainst racism when it’s already accepted in every finns house? those finns who speak against racism in this country are countable just too low to make any positive move. i as a somali it gets too scary for me living in this country. I count even go to a doctor thinking he might be a racist and inject me with a lethal venom. And i grew up in this country, went to school with finns, i consider myself as a finn in this society wich seems to find it vary hard to accept me as a member of society. i myself atleast consider myself as a finn. Now imagine what i go through day to day.

    • Enrique

      Hi depressed n Worried immigrant: I agree. Racism is a far greater problem. The denials and lack of leadership against such an ill show the extent of the problem in Finland.

      Racism is a sickness that destroys people and, worse, undermines our society by questioning noble values like social equality with the catalyst of hatred and suspicion.

      depressed n Worried immigrant: Don’t ever forget that you are a Finn and a member of this society with all of its rights. Nobody can take that away from you except yourself. Be proud of your background. I am proud of your courage to speak out. The more we do the more we put racism in this society on the defensive.

  2. Allan

    “in this society wich seems to find it vary hard to accept me as a member of society.”
    Your countrymen came to Finland and were the ones wanting to have their own society, own rules, demanded this and that. Now you have it, you get to enjoy of their achievements.

    • Enrique

      depressed n Worried immigrant, Allan the reason why you cling on to such ludicrous claims is because you fear the truth. It’s like being in a dark room and speaking to yourself. If a bit of light entered that room, your arguments would end up like Dracula, or smoke.

  3. Mark

    What I found interesting in the story was the types of arguments put out by those trying to create political capital from immigration and the economic downturn. Killian Forde, the CE of Integration Ireland, was very quick to point out the real facts:

    Mr Forde was speaking following comments made by a Monaghan county councillor this week that foreign people who got welfare benefits could “collapse the system”.

    Mr Forde labelled the remarks by Seamus Treanor as “inaccurate, ill-informed nonsense”.

    “Mr Treanor’s comments are completely fictitious…”

    Forde went on to give the real facts in regard to how the recession had affected immigrant workers and about rules for claiming welfare, i.e., proven links to the state or proof of a previous employment history and tax and insurance payments.

    We see this ‘completely fictitious’ nonsense on Migrant Tales all the time. It’s no accident that the same style of political opportunism goes on throughout Europe.

    Forde summed up his criticism of the counsellor with the words:

    “The councillor should strive to become more educated on the situation before speaking out again.”

    If only the idiots who criticise immigration in Finland would do the same, we would be a long way towards having a sensible conversation about immigration and integration.

    • Enrique

      –“The councillor should strive to become more educated on the situation before speaking out again.”

      Allan, how many PS should become more educated on immigration. Where do you see yourself here?

  4. Mark

    D&W

    The comments made about the deceased somali youngster shows you in what state finland is right now. racism is rampant in finland. Why would a politican speak sgainst racism when it’s already accepted in every finns house? those finns who speak against racism in this country are countable just too low to make any positive move. i as a somali it gets too scary for me living in this country. I count even go to a doctor thinking he might be a racist and inject me with a lethal venom. And i grew up in this country, went to school with finns, i consider myself as a finn in this society wich seems to find it vary hard to accept me as a member of society. i myself atleast consider myself as a finn. Now imagine what i go through day to day.

    Thanks for sharing your experiences with us on the blog. We need more people to speak out from within the immigrant communities to show the extent of prejudice they face.

    If it’s any consolation, many Finns are very accepting of the new wave of immigrants, but are certainly too silent about the fact. For many, they have thought that it is obvious in a modern society that we approach positively differences and diversity within our nation. It seems so obvious and sensible that it doesn’t even need stating. I think that the support for PS in the last election therefore shocked a lot of Finns into realising that by not making the case, not showing support for the values that underlie modern society, they leave it open to be undermined by groups who are all too willing to expend energy and time in vilifying immigrants and fostering a set of values based on segregation, denigration and a complete lack of respect for even basic human rights, like the right to one’s own ethnicity. I noticed Allan’s comments above to you, and i will respond.

    Whites in Finland should stand up against the racism and bigotry. This is our society and we should not let our precious values be drowned out by political and social thugs.

  5. Mark

    Allan

    Your countrymen [Somalis] came to Finland and were the ones wanting to have their own society, own rules, demanded this and that. Now you have it, you get to enjoy of their achievements.

    What do you know of Somali society in Finland? Come on, share you knowledge and experiences. Not statistics, not rumours or media headlines, but real, genuine, hands on experience of what this ‘own society’ actually is like?

    Likewise, what have they ‘demanded’, how did they ‘demand’ it, and how does that compare to ‘demands’ of other specific groups within Finnish society?

    Now after, and only after you have answered these relevant and reasonable questions, you can respond to my next point. I say this because I’m getting fed up with you selectively choosing only to respond to those questions that don’t require you to provide any evidence for your claims. Moving goal posts and all that….

    It seems clear that you have decided that Somalis came to Finland, made lots of demands, then the locals got resentful and started being racist towards the Somalis, and it is therefore the Somali’s fault for the racist attitudes expressed towards them. Good summary? Wouldn’t it be nice if you could be as honest in representing my opinions, but there we are, I know you live in a straw man universe.

    First, there is not ever a justification for racism. If, and I mean only ‘if’, a community has problems integrating, the response can and must NEVER be racism. Even if immigrants came here ‘demanding’ Sharia and their own enclave in central Finland, the response cannot be ‘racism’. Why? Because the issue of rights and ethnicity is a political and social problem and must be faced as such. People can make any call they like and it is subject to the laws of debate and democracy. That is your right, my right and their right, to lobby for change that suits us or our desire for a certain kind of society. In that sense, I can tolerate and respect your right to express your opinions on this blog, even if I disagree with them. I do not take your opinions and extrapolate them to make negative judgments about ‘ALL Finns’, even if that is a straw man you constantly throw up here.

    Racism is a gut instinct reaction, a reaction of fear and paranoia. It will never be the right response, regardless of the circumstances.

    I wrote ‘if’, because it’s a huge if. The reality in Finland in terms of immigrants ‘demands’ is quite different to what you imply. But lets see what you can come up with to back up what you yourself said in your post. But back it up you must. You will have absolutely no credibility on this blog until you start to back the things you say up with solid evidence. So, back to you.

  6. Mark

    Allan

    I doubt also that the 3rd degree schooled are the ones those “bad-mannered & aggressive” immigrants on welfare who could collapse the system.

    Not English, mate. Come again with something coherent and may you give us a chance to respond.

    But lumping all immigrants into one pile due to political correctness of course makes it easy to counter any argument.

    There is no sense in doing what you suggest. It’s a circular argument for start. If you want to break down populations into those ‘succeeding’ and those ‘not succeeding’, and then start complaining about the high statistics of failure among those ‘not succeeding’, it’s a bit like separating a bunch or roses into red and white, and complaining that the red ones are red. If you are going to talk about immigration’s impact on the whole society, then you must talk about it as a whole.

    If you want to go after a particular demographic or ethnic group, then you have to say why?

    It seems that often your argument is that Finland cannot cope with these illiterate people who cannot speak Finnish, do not have skills appropriate for the Finnish job market etc. And yet, that is the situation for our entire child cohort in Finland. We put them through a schooling system, which improves their Finnish and many other skills until as such point as they can offer something back. Most do, but some don’t. Those that struggle, we make extra efforts to get them on a productive track. We don’t moan and demand they ‘leave the country’. So why would you take a completely different approach to those immigrants in the same situation? Are you really saying that Finland is incapable of organising training and integration? Of course it is, and it will pay off in the long-term.

    However, if you want to build the resentment, then you will only create more problems than you will ever solve. That should be obvious.

  7. Allan

    Firstly, the Somalians were not a “part” of our society. They came here – we didn’t invite them over – they came without asking permission – “demanding” in the first place, AFAIK there was no war in Russian or Estonia at the time. Then we have all these demands for special treatment, demands for children be segregated… so OK, if you think this is how people should act thats due to you being a foreigner, “demands” don’t go well here. You ask nicely.

    “It seems clear that you have decided that Somalis came to Finland, made lots of demands, then the locals got resentful and started being racist towards the Somalis, and it is therefore the Somali’s fault for the racist attitudes expressed towards them.”

    Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Finns had no problem with Somalis before they started to have this attitude of being entitled to things.

    “Even if immigrants came here ‘demanding’ Sharia and their own enclave in central Finland, the response cannot be ‘racism’.”

    If they can “come” they can as well “go”. Its our country, not theirs, so we can also “demand”, and if they don’t want to comply then we can also demand they leave. Simple as that.

    “It seems that often your argument is that Finland cannot cope with these illiterate people who cannot speak Finnish, do not have skills appropriate for the Finnish job market etc. And yet, that is the situation for our entire child cohort in Finland. ”

    So now you are comparing immigrants with children? What benefits do we have from grownups at the child level? If it takes 20 years for them to grow up we’d only take immigrants age 10 or younger for them to be of any benefit to the society. Looking at the amount of stupidity in the UK I don’t wonder any more how you would have been considered a beacon of intelligence here.

    “So why would you take a completely different approach to those immigrants in the same situation? ”

    Because they are not “my” children. I am doing what is the best for the country and its natives. You are trying to destroy my country and its natives.

    • Enrique

      –They came here – we didn’t invite them over – they came without asking permission – “demanding” in the first place, AFAIK there was no war in Russian or Estonia at the time.

      Allan, remember one thing: you do not own this country nor the “whiteness” you think you represent. Finland is your land like it is my land and everyone’s land who come here to live.

      If you want to get technical, who asked your ancestors from Africa to move to Finland? Why did you kick out the Saami and forced them to migrate north?

      An important piece of advice: No matter how much you kick and bitch, Finland was, is and will be culturally diverse.

  8. Allan

    If you want to get technical – you had no “right” to come here either. You “asked” for a permission. And they made a mistake giving you one. People who “come” to live here have no right to my country – they can “go” as freely – Finns have a right to their country.

    • Enrique

      –If you want to get technical – you had no “right” to come here either.

      Your country? You own this place called Finland? Give me a break. You are claiming that this is your country while you “defend” it anonymously from England?? Is that what they call leading from behind?

    • Enrique

      Allan, in the same way I could show a “naked Finnish man” in Thailand to use JD’s example and tell you how pedophilia works. I won’t do that because it would be repulsive, stupid and as ridiculous as your claim.

  9. Allan

    Yes, Enrique, only difference is, the majority of Finns visiting or residing in Thailand aren’t pedophiles. Finns don’t make a significant % in the Thai statistics nor do they appear in Thai newspapers weekly. Despite how much you try to fabricate lies, the truth is there is a whole lot more wrong with your “diversities”.

    • Enrique

      You will find the answer in many threads on Migrant Tales. Why don’t you be more creative and try a different angle for discrediting immigrants? A lot have been pointed out on Migrant Tales and discredited. You will have to search pretty far and use a lot of imagination to come up with something. We know almost all the arguments.

  10. Allan

    Why do I need a differnt angle? You are doing the best work available! You are both convincing the immigrants like Depressed & Worried there that a paranoia like doctors euthanising them is warranted so they will leave and spread the panic, and you are convincing the voters that voting for the PS is a good idea. We have a win-win situation here folks!

  11. justicedemon

    Allan

    Finns don’t make a significant % in the Thai statistics

    Are you suggesting that the 445 child rapes of Jouko Petri Jaatinen over the fifteen-year period from 1989 to 2004 did not amount to a “significant” percentage?

    …nor do they appear in Thai newspapers

    The similar adventures of Mikka Pitkanen in Pattaya were discussed a great deal in the local newspapers.

    Then there was Ilkka Ylikolola (aka Mr Hero) in 2007.

    And then there was this splendid specimen of Finnish manhood less than two years ago. Doesn’t he look pleased with himself?

    Some of these Finnish perverts ply their trade a lot closer to home, of course. You must recall reading the following:

    Jyväskylän käräjäoikeus tuomitsi jyväskyläläisen Antti Ilmari Puustisen kahdeksi vuodeksi kymmeneksi kuukaudeksi vankeuteen lähinnä Viron Tartossa vuonna 1999 tapahtuneista lapsen seksuaalisista hyväksikäytöistä.

    Gentlemen of this kind have been providing the Finnish and Estonian press with plenty of ammunition for some time now.

    And of course in Britain, where you live, Allan, we had this celebrated case.

    So, in all fairness, what should we conclude about Finnish men abroad, Allan?

  12. Mark

    Allan

    Okay. Here we go again. First, I asked you tell me what were your experiences of Somali society in Finland. I asked you this because you said this to our Somali blog visitor:

    Your countrymen [Somalis] came to Finland and were the ones wanting to have their own society, own rules, demanded this and that. Now you have it, you get to enjoy of their achievements.

    You saying ‘their…own rules, own society’. So, I asked you to flesh this out, with real experience of what that meant, because it’s a serious accusation and we need to know what you mean by that, what is this ‘crime’ that you accuse Somalis of, and how come it is that you have come to know about it.

    And you didn’t answer.

    I asked very specifically to answer this question, because your whole criticism depends upon you having some hands-on experience of Somali communities. You cannot say they came to set up their own ‘society, own rules’, unless you meant something by it.

    And you didn’t answer!!!

    So, what am I to conclude? You are talking through your arse, and you have absolutely no direct experience of Somali communities in Finland and how they are set up and what kind of ‘rules’ they live by or or happy with etc.?

    Next, I asked you to tell me what they have demanded. Again, your reply was rather weak. They ‘demanded’ because they:

    They came here – we didn’t invite them over – they came without asking permission – “demanding” in the first place,

    Well, I have to say, you at least got the word ‘demand’ into the answer, though without making any logical connection with the first part of the sentence. If this was your answer on an exam question, Allan, I think you’d get a big fat F for fail! Not even close to providing an answer.

    Okay, perhaps you sensed that this answer was rather lame, so you added a couple of points:

    Then we have all these demands for special treatment, demands for children be segregated… so OK, if you think this is how people should act thats due to you being a foreigner, “demands” don’t go well here. You ask nicely.

    So, you said they demanded special treatment, but you haven’t mentioned a single one. So, what were those demands, Allan? Who demanded what? How did you come to hear about these demands? And finally, you said they asked for children to be segregated. Please tell me more, because that doesn’t mean a lot to me. Also, how did you come to hear about this demand? What was the context, how was it made, what were the reasons. If you want to talk about Somalis as making demands, then you have to show us, your audience, what those demands were. Or else, why the fuck should we attach even the tiniest big of credibility to what you are saying? Especially as it seems you do not know a single thing about the Somali community in Finland.

  13. Mark

    Allan

    Mark said:“It seems clear that you have decided that Somalis came to Finland, made lots of demands, then the locals got resentful and started being racist towards the Somalis, and it is therefore the Somali’s fault for the racist attitudes expressed towards them.”

    Allan said:Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Finns had no problem with Somalis before they started to have this attitude of being entitled to things.

    I’m glad we agree that this is the point. This is SO important to understanding the racism in Finland and why it is not justified. First, I refer you to my earlier post above about racism never been a valid response. It’s based on fear and paranoia, which are not known for creating a sound knowledge base for decision-making.

    Second, you are saying that the racism stems from this sense of ‘entitlement’ that Somalis have. I guess you would say they just ‘want, want, want, take, take, take, and give nothing in return, not even appreciation’. If that were true, then I can understand why you would feel resentful, though I think that you cannot blame Somalis for making Finns racists. That is something that Finns, and yourself, have to take responsibility for.

    Also, you really believe this ‘want, want, want’ idea, as you’ve mentioned about the demands, but for that to actually be true, then you must surely have had some real, direct contact with Somali communities, families, individuals, and experienced this ‘want,want,want’. Even if you came across this idea via the media or websites, I’m assuming there were very specific instances. If there were instances, then if we are to make a sensible judgment about them, then we need details.

    Much in the same way that you complain that there is not enough information to decide on racism (even when the evidence seems pretty overwhelming). You get the point. You say they ‘want,want,want’, so what is it they want, and how many ‘they’ actually want what you think they want? Is it a couple of them, some of them, most of them, all of them? And how do you know how many it is that make these demands? These are just normal questions, Allan, as I try to get to the bottom of this allegation of yours.

  14. Mark

    Allan

    So now you are comparing immigrants with children? What benefits do we have from grownups at the child level? If it takes 20 years for them to grow up we’d only take immigrants age 10 or younger for them to be of any benefit to the society.

    I’m glad you brought this up. The comparison with children is in no way negative, and certainly not in the same ball park with comments like ‘scroungers’, ‘basket case human beings’, or ‘charity’. Children are valuable in our society. We invest a great deal of time and money into their wellbeing and development. And we do this in the knowledge that that investment pays off in time in making them productive, loving, sensible, creative and fun-loving adults. Not only that, but children have rights. In Finland, they have a legal right to a decent environment in which to grow up. We recognise that children have ‘special needs’ in order to become fulfilled adults, and we invest heavily in meeting those needs.

    The other way in which the comparison with children is useful is in seeing their position in society. I noticed this as an immigrant. You are voiceless. Without the language of Finnish, you might as well be a dog, except that people still somehow expect you to function like an adult. In fact, you are lower than children, because at least children very quickly figure out how to communicate in this language called Finnish. That powerlessness and vulnerability on first arriving in Finland is indescribable to anyone who hasn’t themselves experienced it. The difference with children though is that society generally speaking protects its children. The same is not always true of immigrants or asylum seekers. In fact, the atmosphere is downright hostile at times.

    Finally, because many immigrants are adults and already have a language and a mature and developed understanding of the world, it doesn’t take 20 years for them to arrive at a point of independence and productivity. But, realistically, it does take years. We make massive, massive investments in children, each other’s children, too, who we don’t know from Adam, but we do it because that is part of having a civilised society. There are over 1,219,761 dependents under the age of 20 in Finland, who will need enormous investment in terms of education, health care, food and shelter while they undergo their process of development. There are probably between 10,000-15,000 immigrants in need of some additional support over a period of probably just 3-5 years to enable them to become productive citizens.

    Now why, given the enormous optimism that we have over the youth population of Finland and their development, do we suddenly become so pessimistic about the possibilities for supporting the development of what would only be a handful of people in comparison, and for much shorter periods of time? It doesn’t make sense to me, Allan.

  15. Mark

    In fact, Allan, the time and money it takes to turn a Finnish baby into an adult Finnish taxpayer is massive in comparison to the time and investment necessary to integrate an adult migrant into the workforce. The point is, it is up to us, this organised society, to provide those opportunities for immigrants. There are many kinds of work that would serve as ‘transitional activities of productivity’ while immigrants either train, retrain, or transfer their qualifications into the Finnish labour field. I really is just up to us to organise it, recognise the value of the investment and its benefit.

    If, as so many people seem happy to suggest, the motivation is financial benefit, then the greatest benefit come from having work. I don’t doubt for a second that the absolute vast majority of immigrants want to work and earn a living and gain the self-respect and status in Finnish society that comes with that. I’ve known enough immigrants now to know that for certain. Likewise, many are willing to forego previous professional careers for quite menial work, simply as a means to an end, or to facilitate improvements in the lives and prospects of their children.

    The truth Allan, the hundreds of immigrants I have personally known and had contact with have shown enormous willingness to sacrifice for the sake of their families and to become productive in their host countries. Many struggle, yes, and many struggle unnecessarily, because it is plain, blind, ignorant prejudice that stands in the way of them getting work. Gosh, you should have come to work at the refugee charity I worked at in London for a few weeks, then perhaps you would understand – it is PEOPLE we are talking about. And really, people are not that different, the world over. It takes the smallest effort to see past the superficial differences to understand that ‘human values’ are to a large extent universal. This is not blindness, or denying the right or the necessity for critiquing elements of culture, or tradition, or even of bigotry in those that come from other countries. Nope, not at all. But, to give in to such pessimism, for the sake of upholding a prejudice, just isn’t worth it.

    • Enrique

      Here is a very good quote by Thomas L. Friedman. He has a chapter in the book called “Average is Over” that states the following: “Everyone needs to think, first of all, of themselves when it comes to education like an immigrant. How does an immigrant think? He thinks, nothing is owed me. I don’t have a place waiting for me at Harvard. I better understand the world I’m living in and boy, I better work harder than the next guy because I’ve got nothing else going for me.”

  16. MaryMekko

    I don’t think you know the Irish as I do, Enrique. What is officially in Irish newspapers is one thing, what’s in the minds and hearts of the native Irish quite another, just as in Finland.

    All it will take is one notorious case of a black immigrant male raping an Irish native female, or an Irish boy, and the chase out of the country will begin. The Irish are known everywhere to be loyal to their own, to lead labor movements to protect wages against cheap-wages foreigners (yes, even when they WERE the foreigners here in USA! they kept the CHINESE out to protect themselves.) Amongst American Jews, I have heard repeatedly from friends amongst them, that of all ethnic groups in USA, the Irish are the mostly likely to stand up to them in arguments about race, ethnicity, entitlements, victimhood, Holocaust reparations payments and the uniqueness of their sufferings. They have 800 years of occupation history themselves, so they know that they are then also ipso facto “ENTITLED”.

    The Irish and the Finns have a lot in common, which is why I felt great affinity to Finland in my eight months there. We each have a nation beleaguered and poor over the centuries, we had our own language and culture, and we fought to have our own country. Finland was able to keep its own language and not give into Russian or Swedish domination totally, as Ireland has lost its Gaelic to English.

    Irish can recognize each other and stick by each other. It’s racial, yes, and it works – if people don’t help themselves within a group, can they expect a totally different group to care about them? Every African tribal member knows that he/she better stick to their tribe – the others will not only let them starve but just outright kill them.

    See the 1930’s b/w film TROUBLE ON THE RIVER, based on the British trying to keep the different tribes along a river from killing each other. What a film!

    BTW, Enrique, can you please tell us some of your sources on the Irish, how you know what they really say and think? What’s your exposure to these people? Is it based just on Internet articles or real contact and experience?

    I doubt that you are a real journalist if you can only spout p-c written articles.

    The Irish were the ones to kick the Litvak Jews out of Limerick for selling used tea leaves, garnered from behind tea shops and restaurants, driedout and sold again.

    There are very few Jews in Ireland not just because of lack of opportunity, but simply that they understood they were not welcome; they moved onto more anonymity in New York, etc.

    Enrique, tell us more about your Argentinian ancestors, how they slaughtered the native tribes to create a safe and prosperous country for the European immigrants. There’s a reason your grandfather left Italy for Argentina, and not Brazil or Mexico. He KNEW what he wanted. But of course you don’t like to get into that. Nor do you like to tell us what you’re really doing there in Finland aside from this blog. When do you ever speak of work? Are you on welfare, too? A perpetual student? Your wife’s lapdog and fulltime Daddy?

    Speak about how you live happily in an immigrant neighborhood in Helsinki. Lie if you must.

    Just don’t tell people lies about the Irish.

    • Enrique

      MaryMekko, you have a pretty wild and roaming imagination.

      –Enrique, tell us more about your Argentinian ancestors, how they slaughtered the native tribes to create a safe and prosperous country for the European immigrants.

      For one, none of my relatives slaughtered any Amerindian tribes. My grandfather went to a small down in the province of La Pampa to teach. My great grandfather was an anarchist who like to read Jules Verne books. He named my grandfather Nemo, like the famous captain of the Nautilus.

      When did you visit Ireland?

  17. Mark

    MaryMekko

    By what twisted logic do you need to understand what it means to be Irish so much? And, as usual, you are full of shit. And I speak as Celt!

  18. Method

    Enrique

    “Here is a very good quote by Thomas L. Friedman. He has a chapter in the book called “Average is Over” that states the following: “Everyone needs to think, first of all, of themselves when it comes to education like an immigrant. How does an immigrant think? He thinks, nothing is owed me. I don’t have a place waiting for me at Harvard. I better understand the world I’m living in and boy, I better work harder than the next guy because I’ve got nothing else going for me.”

    Now where is this true? Is he talking about Fin “free money for all” land, or is he talking about the USA, where it’s really like that? You make this same confusion from time to time. To be like USA, first thing we need to do is throw this social system to garbage and bring on the insurance system. Then we need to get rid of the free education. Then the quote above would be spot on.

    But I know you don’t want that. No one wants to come to this place because of the nice weather. What’s the pull of Finland? What do you want it to be? If you want to pull the hard working professionals, promote entrepreneurs what you’ll do is lower taxes and gasoline prices and laugh at the green values and taxes. If you want to bring illiterate social cases to mop your floors, just give free flight tickets and free money. Of course the money’s not free, someone has paid it (or taken a loan for it), but who cares.

    Finland is a land of leeches. We have a huge bloated public sector with sheltered works. And (at the risk of repeating myself) the cuts are coming. Bet my left testicle, they are.

    But then, it’s only the hard times that’ll show who’s a fair weather friend and who’s not. It’s only when everything goes to shit the real values surface. What do you think they are? Tolerance, peace and love? There will be some “let’s fight for this together” ? Winter war shit?

    Too late. M-O-N-E-Y. Check mate.

    • Enrique

      –Tolerance, peace and love? There will be some “let’s fight for this together” ? Winter war shit?

      Method, I think you oversimplify things. We had this debate about the role of money. Is this the society that you are hoping for?

      So you think that since we are going to streamline services and costs, the whole Finnish welfare system will collapse and will start to be go at each other’s throat because money is pushing us. You seem to forget we are social animals not individuals living outside the orbit of society.

      When things go wrong society has a way of correcting itself. This is done by social movements or by revolution in the most extreme cases.

      You want to know what our great problem is? It’s greed and apathy.

  19. Mark

    MaryMekko

    Oh by the way, did no-one tell the American fascists that you hang out with that antisemitism is ‘off the agenda’, and that actually the Jews are our ‘new best friends’? Not that the Jews have been particularly enamored by this latest charm offensive from the European Right to unite against the common enemy of ‘Islam’.

    You’ve certainly given your age away tonight, MaryMekkko!

  20. Mark

    Method

    Now where is this true? Is he talking about Fin “free money for all” land, or is he talking about the USA, where it’s really like that? You make this same confusion from time to time. To be like USA, first thing we need to do is throw this social system to garbage and bring on the insurance system. Then we need to get rid of the free education. Then the quote above would be spot on.

    That’s clearly the ‘socialism’ side of your National Socialism talking there.

    Finland is a land of leeches. We have a huge bloated public sector with sheltered works. And (at the risk of repeating myself) the cuts are coming. Bet my left testicle, they are.

    And right on cue, here is the fascist side of your National Socialism. Kill the leeches, eh, Method!? Now I start to understand your Moniker. Bet both testicles! It would be interesting to see what kind of ‘macho’ voice you would have then. It’s generally well-accepted in economic circles in Finland that cutting back severely on the public sector at this time would only exacerbate the economic pressures. Natural wastage is generally the plan in the public sector for trimming costs.

    How these two political beasts can live in the same breast, I’ll never know. But that is modern populism – a contradiction in terms. Just wait until the hydra starts to attack itself. Sometime around this time next year, me thinks

  21. Method

    “That’s clearly the ‘socialism’ side of your National Socialism talking there.”

    What I was pointing out, that there’s a very different context to that quote. Friedman wasn’t talking about Finland, but USA, which is a whole different animal. And that other comment you make. C’mon. Kill the leeches? Stop projecting. I’m a national socialist now? Wow, I must be doing something right to get you to the point where you’d say that. All I’m saying, we’re not that different from Greece. We like to think we are, but we’re not. And we don’t have beaches like they have in Greece.

    ” It’s generally well-accepted in economic circles in Finland that cutting back severely on the public sector at this time would only exacerbate the economic pressures.”

    At this time. And time after this time? The one beyond that? You think we’ll be alright at the end? Like when it was generally well-accepted that the recession wouldn’t touch us? Or maybe that time, when it was only a couple of billions we needed to throw away at Greece? It seems we’re being lied to. Generally.

    “So you think that since we are going to streamline services and costs, the whole Finnish welfare system will collapse and will start to be go at each other’s throat because money is pushing us. You seem to forget we are social animals not individuals living outside the orbit of society.”

    We are social, but not like you think we are. For example, this social ill you call racism isn’t really the root of the problem. It’s just something that comes around and rises it’s head when people aren’t doing so good. And it’s not just about racism. It’s also about dividing politically. We have examples of that too. And at this point, we’re more politically divided than we’ve been for a long time. And yes, it makes me uneasy. Sometimes I think you people and the PS need to go to Inari lake and fight it out.

    But as I see it, to prevent it from happening, is not to believe in good will of man. It’s to believe in good will of a man when everything’s ok. Once you get people regressing, you’ll start seeing all kinds of things you wouldn’t believe.

  22. Allan

    “Gosh, you should have come to work at the refugee charity I worked at in London for a few weeks, then perhaps you would understand”

    yes, Mark, my dog. I understand why your ass hurts,

  23. depressed n Worried immigrant

    Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Finns had no problem with Somalis before they started to have this attitude of being entitled to things.

    “Even if immigrants came here ‘demanding’ Sharia and their own enclave in central Finland, the response cannot be ‘racism’.”
    Stop lying Allan….i myself am a Somali i came to finland in the 90’s. Finns were always racist. i remember when i lived in hyvinkää i was only 11 years old, getting shouted by adult finns Nigger this nigger that, sometimes being physically attacked..in the early 90’s it was worst. Many finns tried to stabb me to death but i was lucky i survived. so yeah finns were always racist as i recall it’s not that vicible anymore now it’s more like a psychology, people are being racist secretly. allan we Somalis came here becus of a civil war if we knew that finland is this racist nobody would come here i swear. Dont think that we enjoy living here, having to deal with constant racist, cold weather, people treating us like we’re freaks. so it’s not fun to live in finland as a somali, we’re the most hated people in this country. it gets me sometimes paranoiao to travel in the buses or metro or trains knowing that most finns hate me thinnking i come to their country to destroy or leach off of their welfare system, when in reality we came here becus of our lives threatened in our country. Allan everyone deserves to live, if finland were in civil war you would in a second flee to another country but since you never had to struggle , it’s easy for you to point a finger on us. Allan remember when finland was in war, alot of finns flee to toher countries or send their children to another countries to save their lives so what makes you think we’re different than those finns??

    • Enrique

      depressed n Worried immigrant, at least in Somalia you can see the enemy but in Finland it may come in many forms: institutionalized racism, colorblind racism, simple racism peppered strongly with hate.

      I cannot speak for you because I am not you. But I feel a deep sadness and a loss for what you have gone through. I feel it as a Finn and as an expat who returned and was freaked out by your experience. You don’t have to explain or justify to anyone why you came here.

      Finland has a long way to go but has already taken that journey to come to terms with injustices like you mention. You are showing that type of leadership with your thread. You are the one that has the right to be radicalized by what has happened because you are a Finn. Thanks to this blog, we have met and have been able to tell about our lives in Finland.

      I have said it many time and will say it again: Racism not only destroys lives, it has the ability to destroy a society. An extreme example is Nazi Germany.

  24. depressed n Worried immigrant

    Allan : If they can “come” they can as well “go”. Its our country, not theirs, so we can also “demand”, and if they don’t want to comply then we can also demand they leave. Simple as that.

    “It seems that often your argument is that Finland cannot cope with these illiterate people who cannot speak Finnish, do not have skills appropriate for the Finnish job market etc. And yet, that is the situation for our entire child cohort in Finland. ”

    Allan im not going no where. I grew up in finland this is my current country now i think you and the rest racist have to cope and deal with us man, this whole fuss is pointless and time wasting. you can bark as much as you want but we who grew up in finland we have lives and rooted in finland so you and the rest racist either going to cope with us or just keep on hating , but i tell you hate will not get you to anywhere. You say that you live in england but your a finn, this is what i dont get. Finns say they dont want nobody coming to their *perfect* country but they think they have the right to move to any country in the world even in africa? i just dont get it Allan maybe you can help me to get a clue.

    • Enrique

      You are right: no matter how much Allan or anyone else kicks and bitches, Finland is culturally divers today and in the future.

      Racism, depressed n Worried immigrant, works in such a way that it tries to make you insignificant and attempts to destroy your self-esteem. What people like Allan don’t know is that people like you, who have seen so much hostility in this country, are a tough people.

      People like Allan don’t know that but they are learning slowly thanks to this blog.

  25. depressed n Worried immigrant

    Allan : Why do I need a differnt angle? You are doing the best work available! You are both convincing the immigrants like Depressed & Worried there that a paranoia like doctors euthanising them is warranted so they will leave and spread the panic, and you are convincing the voters that voting for the PS is a good idea. We have a win-win situation here folks!
    No allan enrique is convincing me anything, your kinds are the one who’re making me paranoid and spoiling finn’s reputation. it’s you who is the stain, there are many great finns but unfortunately it’s your kind that spoils their reputation. if your kind werent exist this country could have been a place to live speacefuully side by side by different human beings. And remember we’re human beings just like you’re even tho you dont believe it 🙂

    • Enrique

      –No allan enrique is convincing me anything, your kinds are the one who’re making me paranoid and spoiling finn’s reputation.

      A percentage of the bloggers that visit us from the U.S., U.K., Canada , Sweden, Australia and even from distant countries like Mongolia and Belize. What we write is read globally and by a big audience.

      Moreover, our blog entries are picked up by a number of electronic publications. Migrant Tales has got attention from some important traditional news publications. In the spring I got a call from a journalist from “Deutschlandradio”, the National German Radio, we’ve been mentioned on Time Magazine right after the April 17 election. I recently got a call from the BBC. The refugeevoice Daily is another Twitter publication that picks up our blog entries as well as other ones like The Finns Daily and Community Village Daily Activist.

      Migrant Tales is a hand-on-heart publication. I get the power to write on it because I am passionate about Finland. I have three children and I do not want to hand them a country that thrives on racism, xenophobia and twenty-first-century fascism.

      So, depressed n Worried immigrant, you have a voice here.

  26. Derpressed n Worried immigrant

    Enrique : A percentage of the bloggers that visit us from the U.S., U.K., Canada , Sweden, Australia and even from distant countries like Mongolia and Belize. What we write is read globally and by a big audience.

    Moreover, our blog entries are picked up by a number of electronic publications. Migrant Tales has got attention from some important traditional news publications. In the spring I got a call from a journalist from “Deutschlandradio”, the National German Radio, we’ve been mentioned on Time Magazine right after the April 17 election. I recently got a call from the BBC. The refugeevoice Daily is another Twitter publication that picks up our blog entries as well as other ones like The Finns Daily and Community Village Daily Activist.

    Migrant Tales is a hand-on-heart publication. I get the power to write on it because I am passionate about Finland. I have three children and I do not want to hand them a country that thrives on racism, xenophobia and twenty-first-century fascism.

    So, depressed n Worried immigrant, you have a voice here.

    Thanks for the Internet time, now the least person has voice through internet. if the racist facist people used to do their horrible and cruel injustices secretly in the 30’s, now it wont be that e4asy, becus we will demand justice and use internet as a weapon. I thank this blog for the voice it’s giving for us. Enrique we must tackle this social ill called racist, it’s a virus if it’s not vascinated it will spread throught population.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique we must tackle this social ill called racist, it’s a virus if it’s not vascinated it will spread throught population.

      We are doing that now, in real-time, and together.

  27. Allan

    “if your kind werent exist this country could have been a place to live speacefuully side by side by different human beings.”

    Yes, indeed, if your kind wouldn’t have come to our country, we would be living among human beings peacefully.

  28. Allan

    “thinnking i come to their country to destroy or leach off of their welfare system, when in reality we came here becus of our lives threatened in our country. ”

    You came here in the 90’s through Russia. There was no war there. Except the Russians don’t give welfare handouts, but put you to work. So you came here to live off my money. I remember the 90’s all too well.

    • Enrique

      –You came here in the 90′s through Russia. There was no war there. Except the Russians don’t give welfare handouts, but put you to work. So you came here to live off my money. I remember the 90′s all too well.

      Nobody needs to give you an explanation.

  29. Allan

    “In the spring I got a call from a journalist from “Deutschlandradio”, the National German Radio, we’ve been mentioned on Time Magazine right after the April 17 election. I recently got a call from the BBC. ”

    Yes, and its these stupid foreigners not knowing anything about Finland that actually believe in your fabrications. You are destroying Finland’s public image around the globe. Hopefully it will curb the immigration to Finland.

  30. Allan

    “I get the power to write on it because I am passionate about Finland. ”

    You hate Finland passionately, and want to destroy it with multiculturalism, diversity and mass immigration.

    • Enrique

      –You hate Finland passionately, and want to destroy it with multiculturalism, diversity and mass immigration.

      Your kind tried in the 1930s and during 1941-44 but didn’t succeed.

  31. justicedemon

    Allan

    yes, Mark, my dog. I understand why your ass hurts,

    You should be grateful that you will never be important enough to deserve a psychological profile, Allan.

    Abusive father, overly protective mother, castration complex, toilet training dysfunction, etc. etc. Classic case.

  32. Mark

    Allan

    Yes, indeed, if your kind wouldn’t have come to our country, we would be living among human beings peacefully.

    Allan, as odd as it may sound to you, all people on this planet belong to the same species, generally known as ‘human beings’. If you must insist on splitting this category, you cannot pretend to be living in the 21st Century.

    Also, Finland is at peace. Not only that, but the vast majority of people in Finland are allowed to ‘live in peace’ too, and not to fear simply because of the colour of their skin. That is a right that should belong to everyone. Only racists like yourself Allan, ideological dinosaurs who have not understood even a fragments of what it means to be part of modern civilisation, and yet ‘leech’ of its benefits. Yep, people like you Allan. You are the parasites. And not through an accident of birth, but through the colossal stupidity of your choices.

    Except the Russians don’t give welfare handouts, but put you to work.

    Not only are you ignorant about Finland, you are ignorant about Russia. In the early 1990s, Russia had a Fund for Social Support, which provided a variety of in-kind social assistance programs, financed through the Ministry of Social Protection, redistributing about 2% of GDP, a not insignificant amount, though there were many limitations to the program. However, the bald statement that Russia didn’t give welfare handouts is absolutely false. Next….

    So you came here to live off my money. I remember the 90′s all too well.

    Early 1990s you were probably still in nappies, Allan, so hardly your money, eh. Also, a far greater amount of money has almost certainly been spent on your upbringing and education by Finnish taxpayers and look what a fucking wasted investment that was. You are a disgrace to Finland.

    You should be ashamed. As one old Finn told me recently about modern racism, ‘this is not the Finnish way.’ This ideology of yours is of course Imported, from Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands. It’s hardly a Finnish invention, is it, Allan.

    You are destroying Finland’s public image around the globe.

    What, what meager little blog is enough to destroy the mighty Finnish nation’s reputation? You do flatter us. However, I’m quite happy in knowing that I know quite a lot about Finland’s reputation abroad, and how it was built. Moreover, I’ve worked for your Parliament and studied Finland’s constitution and parliamentary system in great detail, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the great men and women of Finland that have built this country in the name of freedom, one of those freedoms being freedom from discrimination.

    What you espouse has nothing, absolutely nothing in common with that great foundation of Finnish society. You are harpies crying on the margins of Finnish, craving political power so that you can enact your hatreds and prejudices. Long may it continue.

    Yes, Finland is destroyed. The Finland in your head. Finland is a modern democracy in Europe, and it’s shape, colour and laws reflect that membership of the modern era. Your view of Finland does not exist, did not exist and never will exist. It is dead because it was never alive. It is so sad that someone that calls themselves Finnish, claims to defend Finnish values, and in the process betrays everything that is good about Finland. Allan, you are a disgrace to your country. And…you are a disgrace to your species.

    But, hey, at least you have the freedom to change.

  33. Depressed n Worried immigrant

    Allan : “thinnking i come to their country to destroy or leach off of their welfare system, when in reality we came here becus of our lives threatened in our country. ”

    You came here in the 90′s through Russia. There was no war there. Except the Russians don’t give welfare handouts, but put you to work. So you came here to live off my money. I remember the 90′s all too well.

    Look man i dont live off of your money. before we came to finland we were migrating we didnt have no destination i was 8 years old then my mom brought me to finland. I went to school with finns and grew up with finns. When i finish school i went imedietly to work. I always worked and paid my pills. Right now i work and pay taxes, you dont know what your talking about. Finland is my country too, if you have a problem with me being here go to your goverment and complain to them about how you can’t stand my existance in this country becus of my nationality and skin color. Allan i am married to a finn, i have a child with her, my son is half finn, i am deeply rooted in here so im not going no where no matter how you cry out , you just have to cope with me.

  34. Allan

    So why didn’t the Somalians then stay in Russia? Why aren’t there any Somalians in Estonia? Why come to Finland? I don’t need any explanations – I know why.

    Mark – Finland is an independent nation of the Finnish people, and not some free-for-all global welfare paradise.

    • Enrique

      –So why didn’t the Somalians then stay in Russia? Why aren’t there any Somalians in Estonia? Why come to Finland? I don’t need any explanations – I know why.

      This is now Allan’s line of questioning… Hey, why did you move to England? What’s a matter, couldn’t take working in Finland? Why did you rob that job from an English national? You are chicken because you run away. Get what I mean?

      I think it is deeply insulting to Depressed n Worried immigrant never mind to all of us that you can actually pry into the life of another person and ask him questions that you would consider insulting. It’s been seen so many times on Scripta and Hommaforum. Sheer arrogance mixed with ignorance gives you such an attitude problem.

  35. Allan

    “I always worked and paid my pills. Right now i work and pay taxes, you dont know what your talking about.”

    So what are you then complaining about?

  36. Mark

    Allan

    You still haven’t answered the questions back from the start of the thread.

    You are quite right, Finland is not a global welfare paradise? So what are you moaning about?

  37. Allan

    Unlike you, I have a set of skills in demand. And we have to face the fact that Finland isn’t a place to make money. All you get is ripped off with prices and taxes while the cities turn slowly into shitholes. Look at Helsinki – overpriced to live in and what do you get in return?

  38. Allan

    “Sheer arrogance mixed with ignorance gives you such an attitude problem.”

    Yes, Enrique, thats the best description of you so far.

  39. Laputis

    Depressed n Worried immigrant, you would be regularly picked up in Russia, country, where I grew up. Lots of people from visible minorities there receive unwanted attention. I am from one such visible minority, by the way. But this minority is not immigrant one, but native one, which lands were conquered by Russia few centuries ago.
    My childhood was quite violent. In our town people were split more or less along the ethnic lines. Russian children didn´t respect our language and us, non-Russians. We were quite often fighting against them.
    I have born and grew up in Russia, but I don´t consider myself Russian. And I am heck proud that I am not Russian!
    And you should be proud too of your Somali roots. Don´t be Finnish-wannabe, you are not Finn anyway. Be Somali, and be proud of what you are. Nobody respects wannabees.

    • Enrique

      –And you should be proud too of your Somali roots. Don´t be Finnish-wannabe, you are not Finn anyway. Be Somali, and be proud of what you are. Nobody respects wannabees.

      OK, so how long does he have to be “Somali” before he is accepted as a Finn as well? People choose their identity. I have three all mixed into one.

  40. Laputis

    Enrique:
    “OK, so how long does he have to be “Somali” before he is accepted as a Finn as well? People choose their identity. I have three all mixed into one.”

    What means “accepted as Finn”? Can´t people accept just Somali without being Finn?

    Enrique, you are partial Finn, so I understand why you count yourself as Finn. But a person without a single Finnish ancestry is not Finn. And saying so doesn´t mean that he can´t be accepted into Finnish society.

  41. Seppo

    “But a person without a single Finnish ancestry is not Finn.”

    Laputis, we’ve been through this. A person born in Finland, with Finnish as his strongest language, Finnish culture the one he knows best and Finland as the place he feels like home in, is a Finn, no matter which ethnic group he’s parents originally come from.

    Finnish-ness in this sense is not a strict ethno-linguistic category but a more open politico-national one.

  42. Allan

    “People choose their identity. I have three all mixed into one.”

    No wonder you’re so messed up. I am just myself, much happier, no need to make a whining blog.

    • Enrique

      Allan, you might enjoy bashing people around but please don’t insult on Migrant Tales. I just came home reffing a game and I gave one unsportsmanlike foul. What is it? It’s when you foul the player but don’t go for the ball. A little bit like what you do here when you insult people and stray from the topic.

  43. Mark

    Allan

    Unlike you, I have a set of skills in demand. And we have to face the fact that Finland isn’t a place to make money.

    So how much do you make a month?

    All you get is ripped off with prices and taxes while the cities turn slowly into shitholes. Look at Helsinki – overpriced to live in and what do you get in return?

    Well, ugh…just civilisation! lol

    Hey, Allan, I thought it was us who was supposed to be running Finland down. Have you forgotten your script AGAIN.

    Oh, you didn’t answer my questions, moron. Either you have an answer or don’t. But be fucking man enough to own up. What is the Somali community like in Helsinki/Finland, and what precise demands have ‘they’ been making, and who is the ‘they’? Really simple questions, just to demonstrate that you are not slagging off a whole community on the basis of shit you made up all by yourself.

  44. Mark

    Laputis

    But a person without a single Finnish ancestry is not Finn. And saying so doesn´t mean that he can´t be accepted into Finnish society.

    You are not the gatekeeper of Finnish identity, Laputis. No-one is. It is not a prescription kind of definition, it is a description. It is the sum total of all sorts of different local variations of people, from north to south, east to west, and thousands of variations in between.

    Before literature arrived in Finland, were the people who lived here Finns? For those Finns that lived before 16th Century, were they not Finns because they didn’t have the richness of literature written in Finnish? Of course not.

    And then there is age; being a young Finn now is different being a young Finn 100 years ago. Even the Finnish language has its variations.

    That’s the problem with PS; they turn Finnish identity into something that THEY prescribe. They tell Finns who is a ‘true Finn’ and who isn’t. And it’s all crap. Because you are what you feel you are, and it really doesn’t matter, it shouldn’t matter, and it doesn’t need to matter.

    What’s wrong with being a bit of this and a bit of that? Do we have to be pure-breds to keep you thugs happy? I’m part Welsh, English, Scottish, Norman and Irish, in that order. So, I’m not a pure-bred welshman with all my ancestors coming from Wales. But nevertheless I have ancestors from there going back hundreds of years. But the same applies to my English roots. Why would I have to suddenly put all my marbles in one bag, just to keep you happy?

    Stupid, stupid, stupid!!!

  45. Mark

    Laputis

    And you should be proud too of your Somali roots. Don´t be Finnish-wannabe, you are not Finn anyway. Be Somali, and be proud of what you are. Nobody respects wannabees.

    The problem Laputis is that your advice is very unrealistic. What does DWI remember about his Somali identity? It’s more than likely that most of his memories are of Finland and Finns and Finnish ways of doing things. His life and identity IS a mixture. You have no right to tell him he is not a Finn. Who the fuck are you, anyway 😀

    Now I’m not sure where you stand on this issue, Laputis, but Allan almost certainly would tell DWI that he cannot express his ethnicity, especially if it means getting some kind of ‘special treatment’, even if that was quite easily achieved. His idea of Finns is that they cannot and must not be asked to adapt in any way to these ‘visitors’. But what about you, you are telling him to celebrate his Somali background. Does that mean he’s allowed to wear what he wants, eat what he wants, speak whatever language he wants, pray to whomever he wants, in whatever kind of place of worship he wants? Just how far do you allow him to be Somali, given that you are telling him he is not a Finn?

  46. Mark

    Allan

    No wonder you’re so messed up. I am just myself, much happier, no need to make a whining blog.

    But you feel the need to constantly come on here and whine about foreigners, even though you know fuck all about them! lolol. At least Enrique has an actual interest. What the hell are you doing spending so much time talking about a subject that apparently doesn’t interest you.

    I say ‘apparently’ because you don’t actually know anything at all about the subject, only that you don’t like foreigners. Do you really feel the constant need to come on here and tell people that?

    Come on, answer those questions you were set, Allan. You made a serious allegation about DWIs culture, and you have backed it up with absolutely zero evidence or material. None, zip, nolla, nil, nada…..not a jot! Ignorant twat.

  47. Allan

    “What is the Somali community like in Helsinki/Finland, and what precise demands have ‘they’ been making, and who is the ‘they’?”

    Mark – read through all the newspapers since 1980 and watch the tv news. I have no energy to write 50 pages to educate you. I suggest you get an “Alibi” subscription as well.

  48. Laputis

    Mark, we have indeed different ideas about what “Finn” means. And yes, we have been through it. I will just repeat few things what I wrote. Like for example, if country Finland will dissapear (f.e. it will be conquered by Russia), then what the term “Finn” will mean, because there is no country anymore defining such term?
    What you think is more important – identity, approved both by self and by society, and which is not so easy to destroy, or piece of paper, called “passport”, which can be flushed down toilet, if country has collapsed?
    About identity speaking – it should be approved not only by self, but also by society, community, in which you live. If you are approved by community as “Finn”, then you are Finn. If not, then you are not “Finn”. Such idenitity issue is not like religion, which you can largely choose by yourself. As I see, many Finns refuse to approve people from visible minorities as “Finns”. If it is so, then people from visible minorities are not Finns. This is reality, how sad or happy it wouldn´t sound to you.
    If you could choose identity freely by yourself, and only by yourself, then there would be approved such identities as “Jedi”, “X-men”, “Hobbits” etc. How does it sound to you?
    Identities, especially so large as “Finnish” should be reasoned. Seriously reasoned. Do you understand me?

    I am a visible immigrant in Finland. I don´t have any attempts to call myself “Finnish”. It feels fake and unnatural to me.

  49. Mark

    Allan

    Mark – read through all the newspapers since 1980 and watch the tv news. I have no energy to write 50 pages to educate you. I suggest you get an “Alibi” subscription as well.

    Bullshit Allan. I’m not doing your homework for you. You made the claim, you back it up. It’s your reputation on the line.

  50. Mark

    Laputis

    if country Finland will dissapear (f.e. it will be conquered by Russia), then what the term “Finn” will mean, because there is no country anymore defining such term?

    Why start your answer with an extremely unlikely hypothetical? What about the situation with DWI and his mixed heritage? You have jumped way off topic. In answer to your question, there would likely be an ‘underground’ movement that preserves the sense of ‘Finnishness’. But please, I don’t want to get into this hypothetical. It adds nothing.

    What you think is more important – identity, approved both by self and by society, and which is not so easy to destroy, or piece of paper, called “passport”, which can be flushed down toilet, if country has collapsed?

    Identity approved by self and society enjoys certain privileges. But you cannot present identity as an either/or question. There are more choices available than what you have offered.

    About identity speaking – it should be approved not only by self, but also by society, community, in which you live.

    Not true. I once lived in a country where being gay was outlawed. Where do gays fit then, because you don’t stop being gay because other people don’t acknowledge it.

    Also, ‘approval from society’ is not a single-switch light bulb that lights up your identity. It’s quite possible that some may approve and some disapprove. The point is, most people aren’t really interested in vetting other people’s national identity, unless you support a party like PS that is, in which case it’s one of those fun activities that you blokes do as part of your bonding excercise! 🙂

    If you are approved by community as “Finn”, then you are Finn. If not, then you are not “Finn”.

    See above. As far as I know, there are not 5 million referendums a year in Finland to decide the status of everyone’s ‘Finnish identity’.

    Such idenitity issue is not like religion, which you can largely choose by yourself. As I see, many Finns refuse to approve people from visible minorities as “Finns”. If it is so, then people from visible minorities are not Finns. This is reality, how sad or happy it wouldn´t sound to you.

    Well, see all of the above. What’s perhaps more significant is whether the individual has Finnish citizenship and enjoys the rights of citizenship protected by the constitution, including the right to live free of discrimination. That is more to the point than who does or does not approve.

    If you could choose identity freely by yourself, and only by yourself, then there would be approved such identities as “Jedi”, “X-men”, “Hobbits” etc. How does it sound to you?

    Jedi is an official religion in England, based on responses in the last national Census. 🙂

    However, on a serious note, you again are presenting two extreme choices, either to choose to be something and have validation from society, or to choose something and have NO validation from society. There are rather more possibilities. Also, DWI probably would disagree about the element of choice here. His parents came to Finland and growing up here means he has learnt the language and absorbed something of the culture. This no doubt blends with whatever other influences carry over from his Somali background and other life experiences. The end result is not something that fits neatly into a box, and why should it? To please you, Allan and other typical PS supporters.

    Nope, DWI is perfectly entitled to call himself a Finn, or to remark, as we do in English, that he is part Finn, part Somali. It doesn’t have to be any more precise than that.

    Identities, especially so large as “Finnish” should be reasoned. Seriously reasoned. Do you understand me?

    No I don’t get you. If you mean that it should be ‘prescribed’, then I would say, good luck with that. It’s doomed to failure and you might just create a lot of misery into the bargain. For me, the misery you create by telling us who are ‘real Finns’ is totally unacceptable, for me, and for many, many Finns, I’m sure. People should be allowed to figure out their own identity, and not simply be given these kind of ridiculously oversimplified choices of box 1 or box 2, plus stamp of approval. What a joke!

    I am a visible immigrant in Finland. I don´t have any attempts to call myself “Finnish”. It feels fake and unnatural to me.

    …which I think is fair enough. But that doesn’t give you the right to then deny other immigrants, some of whom have spent most of their life in Finland, the same choice as you have. Of course, in reality you cannot deny them anything. You can protest, but thankfully you cannot do any more. I dread to think what would happen if idiots like you were ever to get political power. You simply do not understand human societies or identity. Your notions about identity might as well be fashioned from lego bricks, the are so lacking in any sense of realism.

  51. Mark

    Allan

    Mark – read through all the newspapers since 1980 and watch the tv news. I have no energy to write 50 pages to educate you. I suggest you get an “Alibi” subscription as well.

    By the way, I did stipulate no media stories. I asked you what real experience of Somali communities to back up your outrageous claim. If you don’t have any experience, except selected media stories, then man up and admit it. Come on you worm of a human being….tell us the truth! Do you have any real experience or not!?

  52. justicedemon

    Allan

    Unlike you, I have a set of skills in demand. And we have to face the fact that Finland isn’t a place to make money. All you get is ripped off with prices and taxes while the cities turn slowly into shitholes. Look at Helsinki – overpriced to live in and what do you get in return?

    Hmmm… can this be the same Allan that was pleading poverty only three days ago in another thread:

    I don’t have the money to come for a holiday, but when I do, I’ll buy you a pint in the seediest dive in Kallio during a PS rally.

  53. depressed n Worried immigrant

    Allan : So what are you then complaining about?

    Im complaining about your racism. No matter how hard i work or speak finnish language or abide the law i will face racism by people like you allan. cant you see what you’re doing, you’re asking me what i am complaining about but before you even know my story you were quick to judge me and my alikes. You dont know nothing about why im here or why we came here, you just speak with your emotion.

  54. depressed n Worried immigrant

    Leputis: Depressed n Worried immigrant, you would be regularly picked up in Russia, country, where I grew up. Lots of people from visible minorities there receive unwanted attention. I am from one such visible minority, by the way. But this minority is not immigrant one, but native one, which lands were conquered by Russia few centuries ago.
    My childhood was quite violent. In our town people were split more or less along the ethnic lines. Russian children didn´t respect our language and us, non-Russians. We were quite often fighting against them.
    I have born and grew up in Russia, but I don´t consider myself Russian. And I am heck proud that I am not Russian!
    And you should be proud too of your Somali roots. Don´t be Finnish-wannabe, you are not Finn anyway. Be Somali, and be proud of what you are. Nobody respects wannabees.

    I can relate to your story it’s just like my story in finland. Look leputis first anf foremost I am somalian that will never change and am proud of it. When i said im a finn i meant by being a permanent resident in this country, working, having a family, overall just having life in this country not by nationality. My nationality is ofcourse somalian and im proud of it.

  55. Laputis

    Mark:

    -“Why start your answer with an extremely unlikely hypothetical? What about the situation with DWI and his mixed heritage? You have jumped way off topic. In answer to your question, there would likely be an ‘underground’ movement that preserves the sense of ‘Finnishness’. But please, I don’t want to get into this hypothetical. It adds nothing.”

    Oh what the hell, you say my answer is hypothetical? Are you blind or what? Next to Finland is such country as Estonia, which actually was conquered by Russia not so long time ago! Estonia is real case, here, next-door! Finland nearly went same path, by the way! Are you totally dumb or what???? And what makes you so very sure, 100% sure, that in some time in future Finland can’t be conquered by Russia? I don’t say it will happen, but you never, ever can be super sure! What I say is not unlikely hypothetical! And by the way, Russia is not the only possible threat to Finland. You never know how historical or political path can turn.

    -“Identity approved by self and society enjoys certain privileges. But you cannot present identity as an either/or question. There are more choices available than what you have offered.”

    There are different kind of identities. Identity such as “Finn” or “Estonian” is not in the same category as f.e. “metalhead” or “rapper”, but you seem to think, that they are all something same. Than one can choose Finnish or Estonian identity as freely as “metalhead” or “rapper” identity. Oh, you are very mistaken, if you really think so!
    Some identities people can choose freely, some other they can not.

    -“Not true. I once lived in a country where being gay was outlawed. Where do gays fit then, because you don’t stop being gay because other people don’t acknowledge it.”

    LOL now you are putting different identity categories into same bag. WTF and LFMAO really! 😀 “Gayness” is NOT in the same category as “Finnishness”, “Somali”. etc

    -“Also, ‘approval from society’ is not a single-switch light bulb that lights up your identity. It’s quite possible that some may approve and some disapprove. The point is, most people aren’t really interested in vetting other people’s national identity, unless you support a party like PS that is, in which case it’s one of those fun activities that you blokes do as part of your bonding excercise!”

    WTF I am not PS supporter. I am in fact indifferent to Finnish political parties. I can’t even vote anyways. I am not Finnish citizen. You are bit hasty with labelling me.
    I am just disagreeing with your funny ideas about identities.

    If ethnic and national identities were so easy to change, like socks, then my ethnic group, without having own country, would be long gone. But no, we still exist. We have preserved our identity through generations. Because we have idea that our ethnic belonging is not so easy to change, wherever you go, whatever you do, whatever religion you follow, whether you are straight or gay/lesbian etc. We are determined by to what parents we have born. In case of mixed-ethnicity children, they can choose either of their parent ethnic belonging.
    Having own inherited ethnic identity is something like respecting yur ancestors. Maybe you, Mark, don’t care about ancestors, maybe you are rootless person, but I am not such person. I do care about my ancestors. I am thankful to them that I am here in this world. I respect them. They have done things for me more than anybody else. Their blood runs through my veins. And thus I carry their ethnic identity.
    And I despise people who don’t care about their ancestors and roots. You, Mark, possibly, are one of such people.

    -“No I don’t get you. If you mean that it should be ‘prescribed’, then I would say, good luck with that. It’s doomed to failure and you might just create a lot of misery into the bargain. For me, the misery you create by telling us who are ‘real Finns’ is totally unacceptable, for me, and for many, many Finns, I’m sure. People should be allowed to figure out their own identity, and not simply be given these kind of ridiculously oversimplified choices of box 1 or box 2, plus stamp of approval. What a joke!”

    People will run into the wall with changing important identities like socks. I don’t approve your ideas. They can mean slow death to Finnish culture, language etc.
    You try to tell that being “Finn” is enough with just living in Finland, having Finland’s citizenship. Hell, then no Finnish language is needed for such identity! And then Finnish culture is not needed for Finnish identity! Where else will we go? Where Finnish identity will go? What will be left from Finnish culture and language, if everybody will think like Mark or Enrique?

    I have nationalistic opinions, yes. But without them no Finns or Finland would today exist. And also my ethnicity would have been long gone. So I stick on to my opinions.

    Regarding PS party. I have to read more about it. BTW one of it’s members has been studying Slavic filology, he can speak Ukrainian and Russian languages. Very interesting. Maybe that person has learned something from Russia’s experience and destiny of it’s minorities.

  56. eyeopener

    Hi Clapotis. When do you come up with the real fact?? Your historical knowledge is below grade 1. Go back to the elementary class and redo your tests. Here in this class you got a FAIL again. Isn’t it time you start doing something more effective, like cleaning sewers?? You said once you didn’t mind!!

  57. eyeopener

    Can ask the same thing from Allan. His interpretation of history doesn’t even pass “Kindergarten” Probably he received his grades during his BNP training. High class desinformation.

    Billingate*s still looking for guys like you!!

  58. Mark

    Laputis

    Oh what the hell, you say my answer is hypothetical? Are you blind or what? Next to Finland is such country as Estonia, which actually was conquered by Russia not so long time ago! Estonia is real case, here, next-door! Finland nearly went same path, by the way! Are you totally dumb or what????

    Laputis, DWI said he was a Finn. You went way off topic to talk about would Finns still be Finns if invaded by Russia. I mean, come on…relevant how????

    There are different kind of identities. Identity such as “Finn” or “Estonian” is not in the same category as f.e. “metalhead” or “rapper”, but you seem to think, that they are all something same.

    Are you asking me or telling that I think they are the same? And what is the relevance anyway? DWI has lived in Finland since he was 8. One can easily imagine why he would think himself in many ways a Finn. Why do you have a problem with that?

    Having own inherited ethnic identity is something like respecting yur ancestors. Maybe you, Mark, don’t care about ancestors, maybe you are rootless person, but I am not such person. I do care about my ancestors. I am thankful to them that I am here in this world. I respect them. They have done things for me more than anybody else. Their blood runs through my veins. And thus I carry their ethnic identity.

    What does any of this have to do with me defending DWI’s right to see himself as part Finn?

    Some identities people can choose freely, some other they can not.

    Laputis, DWI came here when he was 8. No choice about it. He has learnt Finnish, gone through a Finnish schooling system, been surrounded by Finns. Not much choice about that. And no surprise that he feels himself to be a Finn. And why not? You can talk about ancestors all you like, but he’s going on his own experiences, not theirs.

    LOL now you are putting different identity categories into same bag. WTF and LFMAO really! 😀 “Gayness” is NOT in the same category as “Finnishness”, “Somali”. etc

    You mentioned identity being approved by self and society. I gave you an example of an identity that is perfectly valid even if not accepted by society. I made no attempt to put it ‘in the same bag’ as Finnishness. Just out of interest, do you think that being ‘gay’ is a choice?

    WTF I am not PS supporter.

    Keep your nickers on, I never said you were.

    If ethnic and national identities were so easy to change, like socks

    You do have a habit of straying off-topic, Laputis. Who mentioned socks, who mentioned that national identities were easy to change?

    In case of mixed-ethnicity children, they can choose either of their parent ethnic belonging.

    You are confusing ethnicity with genetics. What about an African baby taken when only a few months to live with white parents in Finland, brought up entirely in Finland? What ‘ethnicity’ would you think this baby has? Ethnicity covers language, culture and to some extent heritage. However, by speaking the language and living in Finland, one can also be said to have access to the same ‘heritage’ as do other Finnish speakers.

    And I despise people who don’t care about their ancestors and roots. You, Mark, possibly, are one of such people.

    lolol. Wow. You don’t need much of an excuse to despise somebody. I am a long way from home. I was moved from the land of my birth at the age of 11. My father had no contact with me after that, and neither did my grandparents or my many cousins. We moved to a country that was different also to my mother’s land of birth, though also a Celtic country. I was a ‘foreigner’ in the new country, a ‘comeover’, as the natives called us. 🙂 No big deal. Enough to say that I didn’t have much contact with the land of my birth or my ancestors. I like Celtic culture in general. I support the land of my birth in terms of sporting events, and I have given Welsh names to my children in honour of their heritage and my heritage. Whether I ‘care’ about my roots, I don’t know. I guess I am more curious than anything. I don’t have a strong enough relationship to call it love. But of course, I understand that others have a stronger feeling for their national identity. I just cannot accept that the price for that is hating other people’s nationality.

    People will run into the wall with changing important identities like socks.

    Honestly Laputis, can you seriously compare DWI being brought up largely in Finland and then feeling some part Finnish as ‘changing identities like socks’? Do you not think that you exaggerated the point, ….just a wee teeny tiny little bit….? 🙂

    You try to tell that being “Finn” is enough with just living in Finland, having Finland’s citizenship. Hell, then no Finnish language is needed for such identity! And then Finnish culture is not needed for Finnish identity! Where else will we go? Where Finnish identity will go? What will be left from Finnish culture and language, if everybody will think like Mark or Enrique?

    Look, you miss the point here. It was YOU who resented and denied DWI the right to call himself a Finn. I don’t recall you asking him if he speaks Finnish or how much Finnish ‘culture’ he consumes or practices.

    Laputis, you have this rather childish habit of putting up straw men and then knocking them down with something akin to glee. It’s amusing to watch, but it’s also something of a distraction from the real debate going on in the thread. Now run along and play with your toys, there’s a good lad.

  59. Mark

    Laputis

    Oh what the hell, you say my answer is hypothetical? Are you blind or what? Next to Finland is such country as Estonia, which actually was conquered by Russia not so long time ago! Estonia is real case, here, next-door! Finland nearly went same path, by the way! Are you totally dumb or what????

    Laputis, DWI said he was a Finn. You went way off topic to talk about would Finns still be Finns if invaded by Russia. I mean, come on…relevant how????

    There are different kind of identities. Identity such as “Finn” or “Estonian” is not in the same category as f.e. “metalhead” or “rapper”, but you seem to think, that they are all something same.

    Are you asking me or telling that I think they are the same? And what is the relevance anyway? DWI has lived in Finland since he was 8. One can easily imagine why he would think himself in many ways a Finn. Why do you have a problem with that?

    Having own inherited ethnic identity is something like respecting yur ancestors. Maybe you, Mark, don’t care about ancestors, maybe you are rootless person, but I am not such person. I do care about my ancestors. I am thankful to them that I am here in this world. I respect them. They have done things for me more than anybody else. Their blood runs through my veins. And thus I carry their ethnic identity.

    What does any of this have to do with me defending DWI’s right to see himself as part Finn?

    Some identities people can choose freely, some other they can not.

    Laputis, DWI came here when he was 8. No choice about it. He has learnt Finnish, gone through a Finnish schooling system, been surrounded by Finns. Not much choice about that. And no surprise that he feels himself to be a Finn. And why not? You can talk about ancestors all you like, but he’s going on his own experiences, not theirs.

    LOL now you are putting different identity categories into same bag. WTF and LFMAO really! 😀 “Gayness” is NOT in the same category as “Finnishness”, “Somali”. etc

    You mentioned identity being approved by self and society. I gave you an example of an identity that is perfectly valid even if not accepted by society. I made no attempt to put it ‘in the same bag’ as Finnishness. Just out of interest, do you think that being ‘gay’ is a choice?

    WTF I am not PS supporter.

    Keep your nickers on, I never said you were.

    If ethnic and national identities were so easy to change, like socks

    You do have a habit of straying off-topic, Laputis. Who mentioned socks, who mentioned that national identities were easy to change?

    In case of mixed-ethnicity children, they can choose either of their parent ethnic belonging.

    You are confusing ethnicity with genetics. What about an African baby taken when only a few months to live with white parents in Finland, brought up entirely in Finland? What ‘ethnicity’ would you think this baby has? Ethnicity covers language, culture and to some extent heritage. However, by speaking the language and living in Finland, one can also be said to have access to the same ‘heritage’ as do other Finnish speakers.

    And I despise people who don’t care about their ancestors and roots. You, Mark, possibly, are one of such people.

    lolol. Wow. You don’t need much of an excuse to despise somebody. I am a long way from home. I was moved from the land of my birth at the age of 11. My father had no contact with me after that, and neither did my grandparents or my many cousins. We moved to a country that was different also to my mother’s land of birth, though also a Celtic country. I was a ‘foreigner’ in the new country, a ‘comeover’, as the natives called us. 🙂 No big deal. Enough to say that I didn’t have much contact with the land of my birth or my ancestors. I like Celtic culture in general. I support the land of my birth in terms of sporting events, and I have given Welsh names to my children in honour of their heritage and my heritage. Whether I ‘care’ about my roots, I don’t know. I guess I am more curious than anything. I don’t have a strong enough relationship to call it love. But of course, I understand that others have a stronger feeling for their national identity. I just cannot accept that the price for that is hating other people’s nationality.

    People will run into the wall with changing important identities like socks.

    Honestly Laputis, can you seriously compare DWI being brought up largely in Finland and then feeling some part Finnish as ‘changing identities like socks’? Do you not think that you exaggerated the point, ….just a wee teeny tiny little bit….? 🙂

    You try to tell that being “Finn” is enough with just living in Finland, having Finland’s citizenship. Hell, then no Finnish language is needed for such identity! And then Finnish culture is not needed for Finnish identity! Where else will we go? Where Finnish identity will go? What will be left from Finnish culture and language, if everybody will think like Mark or Enrique?

    Look, you miss the point here. It was YOU who resented and denied DWI the right to call himself a Finn. I don’t recall you asking him if he speaks Finnish or how much Finnish ‘culture’ he consumes or practices.

    Laputis, you have this rather childish habit of putting up straw men and then knocking them down with something akin to glee. It’s amusing to watch, but it’s also something of a distraction from the real debate going on in the thread. Now run along and play with your toys, there’s a good lad.

  60. Mark

    Sorry Enrique. I messed up the blockquote again. You’ll never guess why? I wrote /blockhead instead of /blockquote. Fruedian slip, maybe 😀

  61. eyeopener

    Mark.

    I really appreciate your patience with guys like Laputis (my nick-name Clapotis), Allan, MaryMekko cs.

    Respect for your argumentation but I 🙂 because you argue against THE WALL OF IGNORANCE.

    But I also know that these guys’ opinions are only the expression of fear. Scary little humans who want so despearte to be big, accepted and recognized. So sad to find adults caught up in a self-constructed word of destruction.

    I hope I can tap on your patience.

  62. Mark

    Eyeopener

    Respect for your argumentation but I 🙂 because you argue against THE WALL OF IGNORANCE.

    Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to tell me. In the same way, I have been impressed with Enrique’s and JD’s patience and opposition to ignorance. They’ve been holding the fort here for some years. I’m a relatively new arrival. 🙂

  63. Laputis

    Mark:
    “Laputis, DWI said he was a Finn. You went way off topic to talk about would Finns still be Finns if invaded by Russia. I mean, come on…relevant how????”
    Actually it was Enrique who was saying that DWI is Finn, I didn’t see it from DWI himself, at least in this thread. Even if he would say, I told him that no need to be Finnish-wannabe. His son can be Finnish yes, because he has Finnish mother. But DWI himself is not Finn, even though he has grown up in Finland.
    Anyways, Mark, you miss understanding by saying that I go off-topic or I say things irrelevant. You miss many things thanks to your ignorance.
    Shall I explain more? I see that here you and few other people think that labelling “Finn” is a way how to “improve” social status. In your opinion, if someone non-Finnish by roots, raised up or born in Finland, must be labelled as “Finnish”, otherwise it lowers their social status. I just don’t get – why is it lowering the social status? Calling someone with entirely non-Finnish ancestry as “not being Finnish” must be lowering social status in your opinion? Why?
    You are using term “Finn” as weapon against social ills. Calling someone as “Finn” in your opinion opens doors to acceptance into Finnish society. In your opinion calling someone with entirely non-Finnish ancestry as “Finn” is cure against racism, lack of acceptance into society etc.
    Do you think manipulating with ethnic term “Finn” is right way how to fight against social ills? Don’t you think there are other ways how to fight against social ills, and it is not necessary to manipulate with ethnic Finnish identity? After all, by manipulating with label “Finnish” you can and will provoke defense from side of many Finns. I think quite many Finns will refuse to call people from visible minorities as “Finns”. And many already do. I am sure many of them refuse not because of racism or because they want to restrict them access to Finnish society, but because they feel like that liberal definition of “Finnishness” go against their understandings of this identity.
    I will repeat here what I told already somewhere else – “Finn” is first and foremost ethnic term. Only secondarily it is national term. But the joke with the national term here is, that Finland originally is created as country for the ethnic Finns. So we have to return to ethnic meaning.
    So that’s why many visible minorities just don’t fit as “Finnish” under whatever criteria by opinions of many Finns. You shouldn’t reduce this to racism or unwilligness of acceptance only. You must look for more reasons.
    And fighting against racism and other social ills should be done without touching the sensitive subject of ethnic identity IMO. I think many Finns are not yet prepared for liberal definition of “Finnishness”.

    And BTW maybe the best would be to call visible minorities with Finnish passports as “Finlanders”? Why not? At least it would make distinction from primarily ethnic term “Finns”.

  64. Laputis

    Mark:
    “Are you asking me or telling that I think they are the same? And what is the relevance anyway? DWI has lived in Finland since he was 8. One can easily imagine why he would think himself in many ways a Finn. Why do you have a problem with that?”

    Because DWI doesn’t have any Finnish roots. Besides, his ancestry is very far away from Finnish one. I don’t talk only about genetics. I talk also about ancestors.
    But his son can be Finnish, because he has Finnish mother. Children of mixed ancestries should be always allowed to choose one or both parent identities.

    “Laputis, DWI came here when he was 8. No choice about it. He has learnt Finnish, gone through a Finnish schooling system, been surrounded by Finns. Not much choice about that. And no surprise that he feels himself to be a Finn. And why not? You can talk about ancestors all you like, but he’s going on his own experiences, not theirs.”

    DWI is Somali living in Finland and speaking Finnish language. Mark, what problem have you got with it? He is Somali despite his life course. Because he is born Somali. His ancestors are Somali. And I don’t mean any disrespect to him at all. If DWI is not accepted into Finnish society, it’s not because he is not called as “Finn”, but because of racism.
    I told you already about my ethnic group. We are what we are whatever we do, wherever we live (can be even Finland), whatever faith we follow etc. We are what we are despite we live in country called Russia. We aren’t Russians. We are often disrespected from side of Russians. But hey, we are not intending to gain respect by calling us “Russians”. We don’t want it. We want that Russians respect what we are – our exact ethnic group. That they stop being racists. Simple as that!

    “You mentioned identity being approved by self and society. I gave you an example of an identity that is perfectly valid even if not accepted by society. I made no attempt to put it ‘in the same bag’ as Finnishness. Just out of interest, do you think that being ‘gay’ is a choice?”

    “Gay” identity is not inherited, it isn’t passed down the family lines unlike such identities as “Finn”. You ask weird questions.

    “You are confusing ethnicity with genetics. What about an African baby taken when only a few months to live with white parents in Finland, brought up entirely in Finland? What ‘ethnicity’ would you think this baby has? Ethnicity covers language, culture and to some extent heritage. However, by speaking the language and living in Finland, one can also be said to have access to the same ‘heritage’ as do other Finnish speakers.”

    I am not confusing ethnicity with genetics, but they do go quite closely together. An African baby in your example is not Finnish by ethnicity, because:
    a) he or she has no Finnish ancestors at all (or at least from related ethnic groups, like Estonians, Swedes or Russians)
    b) his or her genetic ancestry is too distant from Finnish genetic pole, this alone eliminates him or her to be ethnically Finnish. It’s even damn too visible by naked eye.
    But hey, this baby still can be what I call “Finlander”. And this baby still can be respected and accepted into Finnish society. This baby doesn’t has to suffer from social ills.

    “Honestly Laputis, can you seriously compare DWI being brought up largely in Finland and then feeling some part Finnish as ‘changing identities like socks’? Do you not think that you exaggerated the point, ….just a wee teeny tiny little bit….? ”

    I wasn’t talking about DWI in this point, but about your and Enrique’s ideas, that EVERYBODY just living in Finland must be called “Finns”.

    “Look, you miss the point here. It was YOU who resented and denied DWI the right to call himself a Finn. I don’t recall you asking him if he speaks Finnish or how much Finnish ‘culture’ he consumes or practices.”

    A person with no Finnish ancestry, and besides that, from such distant ancestry as from Somalia, automatically is not Finn. Doesn’t matter how much he speaks Finnish or consumes Finnish culture. He can be Finnish-wannabe, but he NEVER will be ethnic Finn. Is it sad or happy thing, depends on viewpoint.
    But DWI’s son can be Finnish. Because he already has partial Finnish ancestry.

    “Laputis, you have this rather childish habit of putting up straw men and then knocking them down with something akin to glee. It’s amusing to watch, but it’s also something of a distraction from the real debate going on in the thread. Now run along and play with your toys, there’s a good lad.”

    It’s quite amusing to read your phantasies.

  65. Mark

    Laputis

    Actually it was Enrique who was saying that DWI is Finn, I didn’t see it from DWI himself, at least in this thread.

    Laputis, go back to the very first comment, and you’ll find this by DWI

    DWI said: And i grew up in this country, went to school with finns, i consider myself as a finn in this society wich seems to find it vary hard to accept me as a member of society. i myself atleast consider myself as a finn.

    and you replied to him thus….

    Don´t be Finnish-wannabe, you are not Finn anyway.

    My beef with you, as with PS supporters (whether you are one or not) is that you do not have the right to go meddling in other people’s identities telling what they can and cannot be. As it is, your ideas about identity are childish and superficial.

    Even if he would say, I told him that no need to be Finnish-wannabe. His son can be Finnish yes, because he has Finnish mother. But DWI himself is not Finn, even though he has grown up in Finland.

    You see, there you go again, telling him what he can be and what he cannot be. You’re entitled to your opinion, but nevertheless, you really don’t have the right to say who is and who is not a Finn. Unless, of course, you want to try to be smart for the sake of it by saying, well, people from Mars are not Finns, are they, which is entirely off-topic, as DWI has spent most of his life here including his younger formative years. speaks Finnish, went through the Finnish schooling system and even partly considers himself to be a Finn.

    Anyways, Mark, you miss understanding by saying that I go off-topic or I say things irrelevant. You miss many things thanks to your ignorance.

    Really? You consider invasion by Russia as ‘on topic’? Wow!

    Shall I explain more?

    No, please, no more….oh, go on then!

    I see that here you and few other people think that labelling “Finn” is a way how to “improve” social status.

    Where have I said that?

    In your opinion, if someone non-Finnish by roots, raised up or born in Finland, must be labelled as “Finnish”, otherwise it lowers their social status.

    And where have I said that? No-one must be ‘labelled’ with anything. That’s my whole point, ‘putting labels on people’ is a rather insulting activity. People must have freedom to figure out their own identity. Yes, THAT I did say,

    I just don’t get – why is it lowering the social status? Calling someone with entirely non-Finnish ancestry as “not being Finnish” must be lowering social status in your opinion? Why?

    Where have I said that?

    You are using term “Finn” as weapon against social ills. Calling someone as “Finn” in your opinion opens doors to acceptance into Finnish society.

    And where have I said that?

    In your opinion calling someone with entirely non-Finnish ancestry as “Finn” is cure against racism, lack of acceptance into society etc.

    Where have I said that?

    Do you think manipulating with ethnic term “Finn” is right way how to fight against social ills? Don’t you think there are other ways how to fight against social ills, and it is not necessary to manipulate with ethnic Finnish identity? After all, by manipulating with label “Finnish” you can and will provoke defense from side of many Finns. I think quite many Finns will refuse to call people from visible minorities as “Finns”.

    Yep, because they are racist and Finn is ‘their family’, and they just won’t accept such visible foreigners into their family. Is it right? No. Can people not born in Finland but have grown up here and settled here consider themselves as Finns? I really don’t see why not.

    “Finn” is first and foremost ethnic term. Only secondarily it is national term. But the joke with the national term here is, that Finland originally is created as country for the ethnic Finns. So we have to return to ethnic meaning.

    Ethnicity is about shared characteristics including, though not exclusively, language, culture, race, geography and heritage. However, there are always variations. Some Finns speak Swedish, some Russian (Ingrians), some Saami. Likewise there are variations in religion too. Some Finns are Catholics, some Lutherans, some Jewish, some Muslim, some Russian Orthodox, some Buddhists, some atheists, some pagans even.

    If you are excluding DWI based on belonging to the Muslim faith (not sure if he does), it seems rather arbitrary. No…it is rather arbitrary.

    So that’s why many visible minorities just don’t fit as “Finnish” under whatever criteria by opinions of many Finns.

    Well, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot complain that immigrants don’t want to fit in, and meanwhile say they cannot fit in. Sounds rather insane, if you ask me.

    You shouldn’t reduce this to racism or unwilligness of acceptance only. You must look for more reasons.

    But it clearly is racism, my dear boy. 🙂 You don’t belong in ‘our family’, mostly cos your black and you look completely different. Nothing to do with language, or shared culture.

    As I said before, you didn’t even stop for one second to ask DWI if he spoke Finnish or how much he partakes in ‘Finnish culture’.

    social ills should be done without touching the sensitive subject of ethnic identity IMO.

    Well, your view of ethnic identity certainly creates a social ill, that of racism.

    And BTW maybe the best would be to call visible minorities with Finnish passports as “Finlanders”? Why not? At least it would make distinction from primarily ethnic term “Finns”.

    What is your obsession with labels, Laputis? Not everything fits neatly into one box with one label. It’s a basic fact of life, but on which you seem to really struggle with.

    And give up on the straw men arguments….it’s rather tiresome to be constantly told ‘what you think…’

  66. Mark

    Laputis

    Actually it was Enrique who was saying that DWI is Finn, I didn’t see it from DWI himself, at least in this thread.

    Laputis, go back to the very first comment, and you’ll find this by DWI

    DWI said: And i grew up in this country, went to school with finns, i consider myself as a finn in this society wich seems to find it vary hard to accept me as a member of society. i myself atleast consider myself as a finn.

    and you replied to him thus….

    Don´t be Finnish-wannabe, you are not Finn anyway.

    My beef with you, as with PS supporters (whether you are one or not) is that you do not have the right to go meddling in other people’s identities telling what they can and cannot be. As it is, your ideas about identity are childish and superficial.

    Even if he would say, I told him that no need to be Finnish-wannabe. His son can be Finnish yes, because he has Finnish mother. But DWI himself is not Finn, even though he has grown up in Finland.

    You see, there you go again, telling him what he can be and what he cannot be. You’re entitled to your opinion, but nevertheless, you really don’t have the right to say who is and who is not a Finn. Unless, of course, you want to try to be smart for the sake of it by saying, well, people from Mars are not Finns, are they, which is entirely off-topic, as DWI has spent most of his life here including his younger formative years. speaks Finnish, went through the Finnish schooling system and even partly considers himself to be a Finn.

    Anyways, Mark, you miss understanding by saying that I go off-topic or I say things irrelevant. You miss many things thanks to your ignorance.

    Really? You consider invasion by Russia as ‘on topic’? Wow!

    Shall I explain more?

    No, please, no more….oh, go on then!

    I see that here you and few other people think that labelling “Finn” is a way how to “improve” social status.

    Where have I said that?

    In your opinion, if someone non-Finnish by roots, raised up or born in Finland, must be labelled as “Finnish”, otherwise it lowers their social status.

    And where have I said that? No-one must be ‘labelled’ with anything. That’s my whole point, ‘putting labels on people’ is a rather insulting activity. People must have freedom to figure out their own identity. Yes, THAT I did say,

    I just don’t get – why is it lowering the social status? Calling someone with entirely non-Finnish ancestry as “not being Finnish” must be lowering social status in your opinion? Why?

    Where have I said that?

    You are using term “Finn” as weapon against social ills. Calling someone as “Finn” in your opinion opens doors to acceptance into Finnish society.

    And where have I said that?

    In your opinion calling someone with entirely non-Finnish ancestry as “Finn” is cure against racism, lack of acceptance into society etc.

    Where have I said that?

    Do you think manipulating with ethnic term “Finn” is right way how to fight against social ills? Don’t you think there are other ways how to fight against social ills, and it is not necessary to manipulate with ethnic Finnish identity? After all, by manipulating with label “Finnish” you can and will provoke defense from side of many Finns. I think quite many Finns will refuse to call people from visible minorities as “Finns”.

    Yep, because they are racist and Finn is ‘their family’, and they just won’t accept such visible foreigners into their family. Is it right? No. Can people not born in Finland but have grown up here and settled here consider themselves as Finns? I really don’t see why not.

    “Finn” is first and foremost ethnic term. Only secondarily it is national term. But the joke with the national term here is, that Finland originally is created as country for the ethnic Finns. So we have to return to ethnic meaning.

    Ethnicity is about shared characteristics including, though not exclusively, language, culture, race, geography and heritage. However, there are always variations. Some Finns speak Swedish, some Russian (Ingrians), some Saami. Likewise there are variations in religion too. Some Finns are Catholics, some Lutherans, some Jewish, some Muslim, some Russian Orthodox, some Buddhists, some atheists, some pagans even.

    If you are excluding DWI based on belonging to the Muslim faith (not sure if he does), it seems rather arbitrary. No…it is rather arbitrary.

    So that’s why many visible minorities just don’t fit as “Finnish” under whatever criteria by opinions of many Finns.

    Well, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot complain that immigrants don’t want to fit in, and meanwhile say they cannot fit in. Sounds rather insane, if you ask me.

    You shouldn’t reduce this to racism or unwilligness of acceptance only. You must look for more reasons.

    But it clearly is racism, my dear boy. 🙂 You don’t belong in ‘our family’, mostly cos your black and you look completely different. Nothing to do with language, or shared culture.

    As I said before, you didn’t even stop for one second to ask DWI if he spoke Finnish or how much he partakes in ‘Finnish culture’.

    social ills should be done without touching the sensitive subject of ethnic identity IMO.

    Well, your view of ethnic identity certainly creates a social ill, that of racism.

    And BTW maybe the best would be to call visible minorities with Finnish passports as “Finlanders”? Why not? At least it would make distinction from primarily ethnic term “Finns”.

    What is your obsession with labels, Laputis? Not everything fits neatly into one box with one label. It’s a basic fact of life, but on which you seem to really struggle with.

    And give up on the straw men arguments….it’s rather tiresome to be constantly told ‘what you think…’

  67. Laputis

    Mark:

    -“Laputis, go back to the very first comment, and you’ll find this by DWI”

    OK, thanks for reminding.

    -“My beef with you, as with PS supporters (whether you are one or not) is that you do not have the right to go meddling in other people’s identities telling what they can and cannot be. As it is, your ideas about identity are childish and superficial.”

    My ideas about ethnic identity are NATURAL, it´s your ideas which are superficial. Your ideas of Finnish ethnic identity have imperialist-colonialist roots. Which are alien to native people.

    -“You see, there you go again, telling him what he can be and what he cannot be. You’re entitled to your opinion, but nevertheless, you really don’t have the right to say who is and who is not a Finn.”

    Mark, oh Mark, ethnic identities have certain rules, which you try to ignore and then attack me for reminding that such rules exist.

    -“Really? You consider invasion by Russia as ‘on topic’? Wow! ”

    Oh poor Mark. Is it really hard to understand? If ethnic identity of Finnishness is changed into purely national identity (as you and Enrique try to do), then what happens, if country Finland has vanished? Your thinking doesn´t stretch that far?
    I prefer Finnish identity staying as ethnic one for rather obvious reasons.
    For national identity we can invent words “Finlander” or “Finlandish”, can´t we?

    -“Where have I said that?”

    It´s possible to read it between lines of your text. Oh, and especially Enrique´s.

    -“Yep, because they are racist and Finn is ‘their family’, and they just won’t accept such visible foreigners into their family. Is it right? No.”

    No, you are wrong. Many Finns don´t mean that way by refusing calling visible minorities as “Finns”. They mean something else, but you don´t see and understand that. And keep misunderstanding them.
    However, it all doesn´t mean that many other Finns can´t be really racist and willing to exclude visible minorities from integrating into society. However, they will find out way how to do it, even if the times will come, when all the members of even most visible minorties will be universally accepted as “Finns”. Racists will find out how to exclude them, in one way or in another, even if they will accept calling them as “Finns”. Keep it in mind, please.
    Why don´t you think that Finns can accept visible minorities if they are not called as “Finns”?

    -“Can people not born in Finland but have grown up here and settled here consider themselves as Finns? I really don’t see why not.”

    Again, “Finn” is primarily ethnic term. You know definition of ethnic identity, which includes ancestrial part, and which is not playing last role of definition.
    We should really use terms “Finlanders” and “Finlandish”, it would clear a lot of fuss.

    In Russian language ethnic Russians are called “Russkie”, but all citizens of country Russia are called “Rossijane”. Very bright example! Why we couldn´t invent something similar in Finland?
    When president Medvedev talks, he adresses to “Rossijane”.

    -“Ethnicity is about shared characteristics including, though not exclusively, language, culture, race, geography and heritage. However, there are always variations. Some Finns speak Swedish, some Russian (Ingrians), some Saami.”

    Your understanding about ethnic identities is messed up. Saami speaking people are usually Saami by ethnicity, Swedish speaking people are usually Finland-Swedes by ethnicity and so on. Saami people live not only in Finland, but also in Sweden, Norway and Russia. They all are Saami by ethnicity, regardless in what country they live.

    -“Likewise there are variations in religion too. Some Finns are Catholics, some Lutherans, some Jewish, some Muslim, some Russian Orthodox, some Buddhists, some atheists, some pagans even.”

    Religion identities are in different league than ethnic identities. People from single ethnic group can follow different religions, it doesn´t literally reflect their ethnic belonging. A Finn can be Muslim or Buddhist, and he or she still will be Finn. And Somali can be Lutheran Christian, he or she still will be Somali.

    -“Well, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot complain that immigrants don’t want to fit in, and meanwhile say they cannot fit in. Sounds rather insane, if you ask me.”

    No, you don´t understand. Visible minorities can be, and should be integrated and included into Finland´s overall society. But you can achieve that with not making from them “ethnic Finns” by any cost. The visible minorities can be accepted by Finnish society just like what they are – visible minorities.
    Religion issues, by the way, is a different thing. Don´t mix exclusion or inclusion caused by religious differences with exclusion or inclusion caused by ethnic differences.
    Muslim faith, by the way, is quite widespread in Russia. And it is followed by many textbook “white” people. For example, look at Tatar actor Marat Basharow, who is Muslim, he would barely stand out in Finland:
    http://www.google.fi/search?q=%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82+%D0%91%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=fi&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=lTYyT_nbBOjm4QSLh-mLBQ&biw=1920&bih=1096&sei=xjYyT-PAIcOM4gTYhNGbBQ

  68. Mark

    Laputis

    -”Where have I said that?”

    It´s possible to read it between lines of your text. Oh, and especially Enrique´s.

    Have you absolutely no conscience about misrepresenting other people’s ideas?

    My ideas about ethnic identity are NATURAL, it´s your ideas which are superficial. Your ideas of Finnish ethnic identity have imperialist-colonialist roots. Which are alien to native people.

    My opinion is that your conception of identity is born out of a situation of cultural self-defence in the face of an encroaching, intruding Russian presence in your native lands. For that reason, I understand you wanting to preserve a sense of your own ‘pure ethnicity’, but by closing the borders on your ethnicity, so to speak, you have failed to see the role of an important group of people – those that bridge two or more cultures. You attempt to place these people ‘outside’ of their true location, into a single cultural domain, often one that is 1000s of miles away from where they are living, have grown up etc. While roots are of course important, it is naive to imagine that this is only thing that defines ethnic identity.

    Your understanding about ethnic identities is messed up. Saami speaking people are usually Saami by ethnicity, Swedish speaking people are usually Finland-Swedes by ethnicity and so on. Saami people live not only in Finland, but also in Sweden, Norway and Russia. They all are Saami by ethnicity, regardless in what country they live.

    Look, I’m not playing by your fixed rules, Laputis. Being a Finn is partly about ethnicity, partly about nationality, and partly about cultural identity. Ethnicity crosses over national identity, but it by no means prescribes it. That should be pretty obvious to you Laputis. As you point out, there are various ethnicities in this country called Finland, and many people across those ethnicities are happy to call themselves Finns.

    Again, “Finn” is primarily ethnic term”

    Yep, primarily, but not exclusively. It’s in the spaces ‘in between’ that you are squeezing the ground, without justification.

    Religion identities are in different league than ethnic identities. People from single ethnic group can follow different religions, it doesn´t literally reflect their ethnic belonging. A Finn can be Muslim or Buddhist, and he or she still will be Finn. And Somali can be Lutheran Christian, he or she still will be Somali.

    Fuck, you call me messed up! Religion is part of ethnicity, Laputis. That much is generally agreed upon by those researching ethnicity and you’ll find it in most definitions of ethnicity. However, religion doesn’t exclusively define ethnicity, in the same way neither do any of the other possible shared characteristics. Ethnicity is a conglomerate, not a pure substance. That is the fundamental thing you are missing. It’s funny how when faced with a characteristic that most clearly shows the variation within ethnic identities, you decide you want to split it off into a ‘separate’ kind of identity.

    No, you don´t understand. Visible minorities can be, and should be integrated and included into Finland´s overall society. But you can achieve that with not making from them “ethnic Finns” by any cost. The visible minorities can be accepted by Finnish society just like what they are – visible minorities.

    No, Laputis, you don’t understand. I’m not suggesting ‘making’ anybody anything. That is your tactic, not mine. That is my beef with you, that you just don’t create space or freedom for people do decide their identity, nationality or ethnicity. For you, it is exactly as you say, it’s about ‘rules’, something that YOU impose on other people. In doing so, you deny DWI a basic freedom of identity and a diverse ethnicity.

    Let me try to explain something of this to you in my terms, not yours.

    I am part Welsh, part English, part Scots, part Irish, part Manx. There you go. How does that make you feel? A jack of all trades, master of none, I suppose. Now tell me that I cannot lay claim to any of these traditions or only to one? I am welsh-born.

    father – Welsh
    mother – English
    grandmothers – English, welsh
    grandfathers – English, welsh,
    great grandmothers – Irish, scottish, welsh, welsh
    great grandfathers – Scottish, scottish, welsh, norman

    Nevertheless, I moved to the Isle of Man when I was 12, and I speak with a Manx accent, all my siblings and their families still live there. It is ‘my home’. Or at least, a home from home. Much more so than the place where I spent the first 12 years and where my father and his family still live. When I visit Wales, I recognise it as having been a home, from my distant childhood, but I have very little active contact with the place and have largely forgotten the language.

    In regard to the Isle of Man, however, where I lived the next 15 years, I can tell you practically every street on the Island, and I can name you friends or acquaintances that lived in all the towns. I can tell you about famous Manx people, about ‘our’ history, from the Celts to the Vikings. I love Manx history. I can tell you the annual calendar of events on the Island. I’ve been privileged enough to sit in the Chapel on Tynwald Hill on Tynwald Day and watch a political ceremony that has been taking place every year for over a 1000 years. Now that is heritage. Not many Manxmen can say that.

    But I’m not a Manxman, by any strict definition, but I can see a lot of Manx in me. There is something about the concept of ‘time’ that is unique to the Manx, at least in comparison with the English. Call it ‘laid back’, but it permeates the Manx character. And it permeates me too. Manx people hate to be rushed about things. As I grew as a teenager and beyond, I walked the many roads, glens and beaches of the Island with friends and family, sat in pubs listening to local bands, meeting and getting to know hundreds of people on the Island, all the time growing and developing, stretching my views about life, I was imbued by this feeling of ‘Manxness’. I have no right by birth to claim to be Manx, though my sisters are Manx, but nevertheless, the Island and the people I’ve known there are part of me, a part that has followed me wherever I have gone since. It is welded to my childhood and adult life and my sense of self in a way that simply cannot be ‘cleaved’ by your strict definitions on race, ethnicity and nationality.

    That’s how it often is for people that bridge cultures. It’s not about approval, or even authorised citizenship, though I have that through my schooling. It’s about your life experiences, your interest in the people and the culture. It gets inside you. It becomes part of who you are. So, yes, I do feel part Manx, even while I recognise other things in me too, my welsh upbringing and experiences of living elsewhere too.

    This is natural, Laputis. A lot more natural than your attempts to tell people who or what they are, your rules, and your strict definitions about identity, separating religion, conflating ethnicity with nationality and even genetic ancestry. While roots are important, there are other spaces in this concept called ‘ethnicity’, and certainly there are in this concept of ‘Finn’.

  69. Mark

    Gosh, I’m getting really sloppy with this quotes business, Enrique. Apologies, once again.

    Laputis

    -”Where have I said that?”

    It´s possible to read it between lines of your text. Oh, and especially Enrique´s.

    Have you absolutely no conscience about misrepresenting other people’s ideas?

    My ideas about ethnic identity are NATURAL, it´s your ideas which are superficial. Your ideas of Finnish ethnic identity have imperialist-colonialist roots. Which are alien to native people.

    My opinion is that your conception of identity is born out of a situation of cultural self-defence in the face of an encroaching, intruding Russian presence in your native lands. For that reason, I understand you wanting to preserve a sense of your own ‘pure ethnicity’, but by closing the borders on your ethnicity, so to speak, you have failed to see the role of an important group of people – those that bridge two or more cultures. You attempt to place these people ‘outside’ of their true location, into a single cultural domain, often one that is 1000s of miles away from where they are living, have grown up etc. While roots are of course important, it is naive to imagine that this is only thing that defines ethnic identity.

    Your understanding about ethnic identities is messed up. Saami speaking people are usually Saami by ethnicity, Swedish speaking people are usually Finland-Swedes by ethnicity and so on. Saami people live not only in Finland, but also in Sweden, Norway and Russia. They all are Saami by ethnicity, regardless in what country they live.

    Look, I’m not playing by your fixed rules, Laputis. Being a Finn is partly about ethnicity, partly about nationality, and partly about cultural identity. Ethnicity crosses over national identity, but it by no means prescribes it. That should be pretty obvious to you Laputis. As you point out, there are various ethnicities in this country called Finland, and many people across those ethnicities are happy to call themselves Finns.

    Again, “Finn” is primarily ethnic term”

    Yep, primarily, but not exclusively. It’s in the spaces ‘in between’ that you are squeezing the ground, without justification.

    Religion identities are in different league than ethnic identities. People from single ethnic group can follow different religions, it doesn´t literally reflect their ethnic belonging. A Finn can be Muslim or Buddhist, and he or she still will be Finn. And Somali can be Lutheran Christian, he or she still will be Somali.

    Fuck, you call me messed up! Religion is part of ethnicity, Laputis. That much is generally agreed upon by those researching ethnicity and you’ll find it in most definitions of ethnicity. However, religion doesn’t exclusively define ethnicity, in the same way neither do any of the other possible shared characteristics. Ethnicity is a conglomerate, not a pure substance. That is the fundamental thing you are missing. It’s funny how when faced with a characteristic that most clearly shows the variation within ethnic identities, you decide you want to split it off into a ‘separate’ kind of identity.

    No, you don´t understand. Visible minorities can be, and should be integrated and included into Finland´s overall society. But you can achieve that with not making from them “ethnic Finns” by any cost. The visible minorities can be accepted by Finnish society just like what they are – visible minorities.

    No, Laputis, you don’t understand. I’m not suggesting ‘making’ anybody anything. That is your tactic, not mine. That is my beef with you, that you just don’t create space or freedom for people do decide their identity, nationality or ethnicity. For you, it is exactly as you say, it’s about ‘rules’, something that YOU impose on other people. In doing so, you deny DWI a basic freedom of identity and a diverse ethnicity.

    Let me try to explain something of this to you in my terms, not yours.

    I am part Welsh, part English, part Scots, part Irish, part Manx. There you go. How does that make you feel? A jack of all trades, master of none, I suppose. Now tell me that I cannot lay claim to any of these traditions or only to one? I am welsh-born.

    father – Welsh
    mother – English
    grandmothers – English, welsh
    grandfathers – English, welsh,
    great grandmothers – Irish, scottish, welsh, welsh
    great grandfathers – Scottish, scottish, welsh, norman

    Nevertheless, I moved to the Isle of Man when I was 12, and I speak with a Manx accent, all my siblings and their families still live there. It is ‘my home’. Or at least, a home from home. Much more so than the place where I spent the first 12 years and where my father and his family still live. When I visit Wales, I recognise it as having been a home, from my distant childhood, but I have very little active contact with the place and have largely forgotten the language.

    In regard to the Isle of Man, however, where I lived the next 15 years, I can tell you practically every street on the Island, and I can name you friends or acquaintances that lived in all the towns. I can tell you about famous Manx people, about ‘our’ history, from the Celts to the Vikings. I love Manx history. I can tell you the annual calendar of events on the Island. I’ve been privileged enough to sit in the Chapel on Tynwald Hill on Tynwald Day and watch a political ceremony that has been taking place every year for over a 1000 years. Now that is heritage. Not many Manxmen can say that.

    But I’m not a Manxman, by any strict definition, but I can see a lot of Manx in me. There is something about the concept of ‘time’ that is unique to the Manx, at least in comparison with the English. Call it ‘laid back’, but it permeates the Manx character. And it permeates me too. Manx people hate to be rushed about things. As I grew as a teenager and beyond, I walked the many roads, glens and beaches of the Island with friends and family, sat in pubs listening to local bands, meeting and getting to know hundreds of people on the Island, all the time growing and developing, stretching my views about life, I was imbued by this feeling of ‘Manxness’. I have no right by birth to claim to be Manx, though my sisters are Manx, but nevertheless, the Island and the people I’ve known there are part of me, a part that has followed me wherever I have gone since. It is welded to my childhood and adult life and my sense of self in a way that simply cannot be ‘cleaved’ by your strict definitions on race, ethnicity and nationality.

    That’s how it often is for people that bridge cultures. It’s not about approval, or even authorised citizenship, though I have that through my schooling. It’s about your life experiences, your interest in the people and the culture. It gets inside you. It becomes part of who you are. So, yes, I do feel part Manx, even while I recognise other things in me too, my welsh upbringing and experiences of living elsewhere too.

    This is natural, Laputis. A lot more natural than your attempts to tell people who or what they are, your rules, and your strict definitions about identity, separating religion, conflating ethnicity with nationality and even genetic ancestry. While roots are important, there are other spaces in this concept called ‘ethnicity’, and certainly there are in this concept of ‘Finn’.

  70. Mark

    Any chance of a preview button on the comments, Enrique? With these complex quoting and evolving conversations, it would be very useful. 🙂

  71. Mark

    Enrique

    There are several WordPress comment preview plugins:

    Live Comment Preview
    Ajax Comment Preview
    jQuery Comment Preview
    Filosofo Comments Preview

    The jQuery one is nice, because you have the option of ‘hiding’ the preview.

  72. Laputis

    Mark, I perhaps forgot to tell you one very important point. YOU CAN´T CHOOSE ETHNIC IDENTITY. Yes, you can´t choose it. Ethnic identity is about WHAT YOU ARE. It´s not about what you want to be. But you talk about ethnic identities as if they were something, that you can choose. No, you can´t choose. You can be wannabee, of course, but it´s different thing.

    And by the way, are you against inventing term “Finlander” or “Finlandish” distinguishable from “Finn” and “Finnish”?

    In Russian language, as I told, there is distinction between ethnic Russian (“Russkij”) and Russian national (“Rossijanin”). Not bad thing at all IMHO, and BTW almost everybody in Russia are satisfied with such distinction.

  73. Mark

    laputis

    Visible minorities can be, and should be integrated and included into Finland´s overall society. But you can achieve that with not making from them “ethnic Finns” by any cost. The visible minorities can be accepted by Finnish society just like what they are – visible minorities.

    I really must pull you up over this, Laputis. You are so close to advocating out and out racism and from someone who himself is a member of a minority and has experienced racism, it really is inexcusable.

    Visible minority? For God’s sake man, there are many ‘visible minorities’ in Finland –

    the physically disabled
    the mentally disabled
    the very old
    the very young
    the blind
    the very tall
    the very short
    the redheads

    So, you are telling me that these people, while ‘accepted’ in Finnish society and integrated, nevertheless cannot be accepted as ‘ethnic Finns’?

    Assuming that you say, of course, they can be, you nevertheless pick on an arbitrary element such as black skin and say that this however, excludes you from the group of ‘ethnic’ Finns? Can you not see that this criteria is completely arbitrary? If you cannot, then you are a racist, no question about it.

    And don’t give me any more crap about ancestry. It’s about how living individuals identity with other living and sometimes dead individuals. If Finns cannot identify with other Finns through their shared language, culture, upbringing and geography simply because the other has a different skin colour, then that is racism. People get hung up on what is different and reject or completely fail to see what they have in common. The things they have in common are much more a part of the living culture and heritage of Finland.

    Laputis, I don’t know what kind of world you live in, but when I meet people, they do not ask me, are you an ethnic Brit, or are you an ethnic Finn. In fact, I have never, ever ever, in my 40 odd years of life, ever heard anyone ask anyone else whether they were an ‘ethnic something or other’. Who is living in fantasy worlds, Laputis?

  74. Mark

    Mark, I perhaps forgot to tell you one very important point. YOU CAN´T CHOOSE ETHNIC IDENTITY. Yes, you can´t choose it. Ethnic identity is about WHAT YOU ARE. It´s not about what you want to be. But you talk about ethnic identities as if they were something, that you can choose. No, you can´t choose. You can be wannabee, of course, but it´s different thing.

    Look, you little toerag, nobody is saying you ‘choose’ your ethnic identity. Another fucking straw man.

    I cannot say, ‘oh, today I think I’ll be ethnic Chinese!’ However, if I have lived and grown up in China, speak Chinese and take part on a daily basis in Chinese culture, then that influence is part of my ethnic identity. Not a choice, but a reality, part of who I am.

    By the way, your use of the word ‘wannabee’ is really insulting and offensive. You should stop using it.

    And by the way, are you against inventing term “Finlander” or “Finlandish” distinguishable from “Finn” and “Finnish”?

    I don’t object to labels per se. What I object to is one group of people giving labels to another group of people that somehow designate a ‘second class’ citizenship. To be honest, these labels are only useful when you are abroad. A person who speaks Finnish and lives in Finland and grew up here to an extent is unlikely to be asked ‘are you a Finn’. Likewise, if you said to anyone asking you abroad, I am a Finlander, they’d look at you rather odd. There is no need to invent these words. In the Russian Federation, with it’s history of soviet communism, I can understand a certain need for it. But in Finland? Nope. In fact, I find the whole idea rather offensive, and I’m sure I would not be the only one.

    I mean, would you like us to wear the Star of David on your clothes, just to make it completely obvious? That’s called facetious humour, before you start to take it seriously.

  75. Laputis

    -“Fuck, you call me messed up! Religion is part of ethnicity, Laputis. That much is generally agreed upon by those researching ethnicity and you’ll find it in most definitions of ethnicity. However, religion doesn’t exclusively define ethnicity, in the same way neither do any of the other possible shared characteristics. Ethnicity is a conglomerate, not a pure substance. That is the fundamental thing you are missing. It’s funny how when faced with a characteristic that most clearly shows the variation within ethnic identities, you decide you want to split it off into a ‘separate’ kind of identity. ”

    Religion has been used as force to determine or even change one´s ethnicity. Example – Orthodox Christianity in Russian version. It has been used literally as weapon to russify non-Russians. The non-Russians often were baptised with sword, bullets and threats. Christianisation has been often coming with bloodshed. Religion went hand-in-hand with earthly power. And Orthodox Christianity imposed russification, because liturgies etc. in Orthodox church are in Old Slavic or Russian languages. And it included power of Russia government. The Russian Orthodox Church rarely has liturgies etc. in other languages.
    You see the role of shaping ethnicities by religion when religion has been used as way to impose government powers.
    But religions in pure form (without involving earthly powers, governments etc.) are not determining ethnicities. Nowdays religion in many countries usually is seperated from government. Nowdays people often can choose what faith they follow, and for doing that they don´t have to abandon many of their other identities.
    And by the way, compare two ethnic groups predominantily Muslim such as Tatars with Somali. Who have better chances to integrate into Finnish society? Isn´t it that the Tatars have all the chances to be far better integrated? What kind of role religion plays here? Rather low, don´t you agree with me?

    For your knowledge, there already exists Tatar community in Finland. And they are very well integrated group into Finnish society.

  76. Mark

    Laputis

    Ethnicity is about identification. Who you identify with and who identifies with you. At the moment, some immigrants who have been here a long time, or have grown up here or who were born to immigrant parents or grandparents etc. identify to some extent with ‘being Finnish’, even though some within group refuse to identify with them because of their skin colour or their religion or their recent or distant origins.

  77. Mark

    Religion has been used as force to determine or even change one´s ethnicity. Example – Orthodox Christianity in Russian version. It has been used literally as weapon to russify non-Russians. The non-Russians often were baptised with sword, bullets and threats. Christianisation has been often coming with bloodshed. Religion went hand-in-hand with earthly power. And Orthodox Christianity imposed russification, because liturgies etc. in Orthodox church are in Old Slavic or Russian languages. And it included power of Russia government. The Russian Orthodox Church rarely has liturgies etc. in other languages.

    Yes, very interesting….if changing religion is able to immediately change your ethnicity, then it must be part of ethnicity, no? And yet you also accept that people of the same ethnicity can have different religion. Is this giving you headache, Laputis? I’m perfectly fine with it. 😀

    And by the way, compare two ethnic groups predominantily Muslim such as Tatars with Somali. Who have better chances to integrate into Finnish society? Isn´t it that the Tatars have all the chances to be far better integrated? What kind of role religion plays here? Rather low, don´t you agree with me?

    Well, that might change, if the Islamaphobes get their way! 🙂

    But religions in pure form (without involving earthly powers, governments etc.) are not determining ethnicities.

    I think I said pretty much the same thing when I said:

    However, religion doesn’t exclusively define ethnicity, in the same way neither do any of the other possible shared characteristics. Ethnicity is a conglomerate, not a pure substance.

    You do realise that you appear to have agreed with me about something, though in fact the way you did it was to present it somewhat after I have first present, and also to present it to me in such a way as you were ‘educating’ me about the point. Still, agreement is agreement.

    Religion…without involving earthly powers

    So what kind powers are those then? Angelic?

  78. Laputis

    -“Yes, very interesting….if changing religion is able to immediately change your ethnicity, then it must be part of ethnicity, no? And yet you also accept that people of the same ethnicity can have different religion. Is this giving you headache, Laputis? I’m perfectly fine with it. :D”

    So you didn´t read carefully what I wrote. I wrote that religion combined with power are force to change ethnicities. Religion+government, is it clear to you now?

    The religions themselves are not changing ethnicities.

    Russian Orthodox Christianity has been always linked with Russian government, except Communist period.

    “You do realise that you appear to have agreed with me about something, though in fact the way you did it was to present it somewhat after I have first present, and also to present it to me in such a way as you were ‘educating’ me about the point. Still, agreement is agreement.”

    I think you have misread what I wrote.

  79. Mark

    So you didn´t read carefully what I wrote. I wrote that religion combined with power are force to change ethnicities. Religion+government, is it clear to you now?

    lololol Get outta here! 😀 😀

    The religions themselves are not changing ethnicities.

    Hup, the obligatory straw man! Where did I say that?

    Yep, God forbid we ever agree about anything, eh, Laputis. You would be worried then. So how come you haven’t responded to the much more important issue of whether ‘visible minorities’ can be ethnic Finns. You seem far more interested in wandering off on yet another tangent, that of religion, government, Russia, ethnicity. All very interesting, all off topic, my young pup.

  80. Laputis

    -“Well, that might change, if the Islamaphobes get their way!”

    Do you know what Islamophobes are most concerned about? They are concerned about combination religion+power. All those talks about “sharia law” etc. are exactly about that.

    Islam as religion can be interpreted in different ways, just like any other religion. Some take Islam in more liberal context. For example, many Tatars are liberal followers of Islam, they are not intending any sharia laws, many Muslim Tatar women don´t wear any headdresses etc. Some other people from Middle East or North Africa are implementing in life everything literally as written in Koran.
    You know, variances within Islam can be just like in Christianity. Some Christians are taking literally every word written in Bible, some other stick only to overall philosofies about God and Jesus Crist etc.
    Since most of Islam followers in Finland are orthodox ones from Middle East or North Africa, where religion often goes in combination of religion+power, it gives soil to Islamophobia. If most Islam followers in Finland were as liberal as Tatars are, there would be no place for Islamophobia to arise.

  81. Laputis

    -“Yep, God forbid we ever agree about anything, eh, Laputis. You would be worried then.”

    Oh gosh, you yourself make straw men. I am not afraid to agree with you. But this time you didn´t understand what I wrote about religions and combination with powers.

    -“So how come you haven’t responded to the much more important issue of whether ‘visible minorities’ can be ethnic Finns.”

    I don´t have time to answer everything you write. So I skip places, where I think you ask dumb as hell questions.
    “Visible minorities” are in ethnicity context all the time here, you know. “Visible minorities” here don´t apply to mentally disabled etc., who of course can be ethnic Finns. You suddenly took out of context the term “visible minorities”.

    -“You seem far more interested in wandering off on yet another tangent, that of religion, government, Russia, ethnicity. All very interesting, all off topic, my young pup.”

    And what is on-topic? Your imperialist-colonisator ideas?

  82. Mark

    Do you know what Islamophobes are most concerned about? They are concerned about combination religion+power. All those talks about “sharia law” etc. are exactly about that.

    Laputis, I applaud the fact that you see and acknowledge the differences between Muslims. However, it goes even further. Not every Muslim in favour of Sharia is an extremist. You have to also acknowledge that many people supporting this Islamaphobia lump all Muslims into one bag, regardless of the fact the vast majority are moderates. And, worse, many visible and vocal critics of Muslim immigration in Finland are quite happy to inflame the situation of religious tension by accusing their prophet of being a pedophile, all in the name of free speech, of course.. That’s the level of debate here, Laputis. It’s despicable.

    Also, if they are worried about religion+power (which neatly dovetails with your daily lecture), then why don’t they go after the Catholic church, or elements of the Finnish Evangelicals, who are quite happy to encourage AIDS in Africa and trample all over the rights of Finnish gay citizens, respectively. Yikes, it’s even true to say that you cannot be elected president of the USA if you are an atheist, but I don’t see people up in arms about Americans coming to Europe. It’s all so selective…..

    I am against bigotry wherever we may find it, but the notion that bigotry is only to be found in Islam or that that is a legitimate excuse to turn immigrants from Islamic countries into pariahs here in Finland or other European countries is abhorrent.

    There are many, many, many, many, many hundreds of thousands probably millions of Muslims all across the world who are fighting for human rights, fighting against local customs that are harmful or done the name of Islam, and fighting for the rights of women in Islam. It is an insult to them and their religion to suggest it is somehow the job of the West to reform or to stand in judgment of these people. Heck, less than a hundred years in Finland, the Finns were at each others throats murdering each other over political ideologies. These are the ancestors you wish to edify in the name of ethnicity, are they, Laputis? We all have our dirty washing, mate.

  83. Mark

    Laputis

    And what is on-topic? Your imperialist-colonisator ideas?

    Don’t be a knob! If you are going to continuously throw these meaningless labels at me, at least back up what you say with something concrete.

    “Visible minorities” are in ethnicity context all the time here, you know. “Visible minorities” here don´t apply to mentally disabled etc., who of course can be ethnic Finns. You suddenly took out of context the term “visible minorities”.

    Yep, it’s as I said, you would not accept them as ‘visible minorities’ though quite clearly they are.

    Out of context? lololol 😀 😀

    What else does it mean, except a minority that are distinguishable by a visible characteristic? But, of course I knew that if you took the idea at face value, then you would also have to accept the inherent racism in it.

    No, Mark, it’s not racism, it’s about ethnic purity, about genetic and linguistic ancestors, and of course, the implied notion that the ‘differences’ that outsiders would bring to the family are somehow ‘unacceptable’. It’s stinks, Laputis. It absolutely reeks of fascist nationalism, and the worst kind…..

  84. Mark

    Laputis

    And what is on-topic? Your imperialist-colonisator ideas?

    Don’t be a knob! If you are going to continuously throw these meaningless labels at me, at least back up what you say with something concrete.

    “Visible minorities” are in ethnicity context all the time here, you know. “Visible minorities” here don´t apply to mentally disabled etc., who of course can be ethnic Finns. You suddenly took out of context the term “visible minorities”.

    Yep, it’s as I said, you would not accept them as ‘visible minorities’ though quite clearly they are.

    Out of context? lololol 😀 😀

    What else does it mean, except a minority that are distinguishable by a visible characteristic? But, of course I knew that if you took the idea at face value, then you would also have to accept the inherent racism in it.

    No, Mark, it’s not racism, it’s about ethnic purity, about genetic and linguistic ancestors, and of course, the implied notion that the ‘differences’ that outsiders would bring to the family are somehow ‘unacceptable’. It’s stinks, Laputis. It absolutely reeks of fascist nationalism, and the worst kind…..

  85. Mark

    Laputis

    Just to make myself clear here, when I say there is inherent racism in the idea of ‘visible minorities’, I refer to your suggestion that the ‘visible minorities cannot be ethnic Finns’, and not to the idea of ‘visible minorities’. That’s a grouping used to talk about a particular kind of racism that homes in on ‘visible characteristics’ that are different to a host nation’s most common types. In linguistic terms, it might be easier to refer to them as ‘marked characteristics’, because they come to carry additional meanings, often negative, though sometimes positive too.

  86. Laputis

    “Don’t be a knob! If you are going to continuously throw these meaningless labels at me, at least back up what you say with something concrete.”

    If I will back up, you will say that I am going off-topic, LOL.

    -“Yep, it’s as I said, you would not accept them as ‘visible minorities’ though quite clearly they are. ”

    I wish I could write in English as good as you do, because I could say what you are doing with your trap-makings. In this blog “visible minorities” are meant ethnic groups with physically different features than Finns have (skin color, nose shape etc.). I thought it is pretty obvious. And I used term “visible minorities” in this sense. And you understood it as well. But you decided to make a “trap” to me, because you wanted to humiliate me. So you took “visible minorities” out of context, out of this blog´s context. So you could make “trap” where to “catch” me, and then turn against me. Oh, Mark, how low of you.

  87. Laputis

    -“No, Mark, it’s not racism, it’s about ethnic purity, about genetic and linguistic ancestors, and of course, the implied notion that the ‘differences’ that outsiders would bring to the family are somehow ‘unacceptable’. It’s stinks, Laputis. It absolutely reeks of fascist nationalism, and the worst kind…..”

    Talking about making straw men 🙂 Just using your own words – you make straw men, at which you then throw mud. Oh, go to play with kindergarten children 😀

    Of course you misinterpret wrongly what I write. And then you seek fashist nationalism and ethnic purity in my words. You are really making straw men.

    BTW thanks for teaching me those terms in English language 🙂

  88. Mark

    “Don’t be a knob! If you are going to continuously throw these meaningless labels at me, at least back up what you say with something concrete.”

    If I will back up, you will say that I am going off-topic, LOL.

    Don’t be childish, Laputis. If you have the time and initiative to call me names, you also have the time and initiative to explain yourself. If you simply want to be irritating, fine. I’ll drop the subject. It’s no skin off my nose.

    In this blog “visible minorities” are meant ethnic groups with physically different features than Finns have (skin color, nose shape etc.). I thought it is pretty obvious. And I used term “visible minorities” in this sense. And you understood it as well. But you decided to make a “trap” to me, because you wanted to humiliate me. So you took “visible minorities” out of context, out of this blog´s context. So you could make “trap” where to “catch” me, and then turn against me. Oh, Mark, how low of you.

    Well now, that isn’t entirely the whole truth, is it? You created the context for ‘visible minorities’ by deciding and telling us that this was a justifiable criteria for ethnic exclusion. This is nothing to do with the meaning of how ‘visible minorities’ is usually used. So, in fact, you were the one extending the context. On that basis, I then returned to the basic idea of ‘visible minorities’ to see if it could be made to be consistent with the idea of ‘ethnic exclusion’, and that is when I made the point about those visible minorities not excluded in your definition. This draws attention to the arbitrary role given to ‘colour’, which in turn points out it’s inherent racism.

    That’s what should humiliate you. But it doesn’t. You refuse to accept the analysis, cry about the fact that I have taken the word out of context, when actually it was you who did it.

    Laputis, you caught yourself in a trap. I merely pointed it out.

  89. Laputis

    -“Laputis, I applaud the fact that you see and acknowledge the differences between Muslims. However, it goes even further. Not every Muslim in favour of Sharia is an extremist. You have to also acknowledge that many people supporting this Islamaphobia lump all Muslims into one bag, regardless of the fact the vast majority are moderates. And, worse, many visible and vocal critics of Muslim immigration in Finland are quite happy to inflame the situation of religious tension by accusing their prophet of being a pedophile, all in the name of free speech, of course.. That’s the level of debate here, Laputis. It’s despicable.”

    Prophet must have been pedophile if he really married girl who was 6 (or 7) years old (it´s how is written in Koran). That´s insulting of course, but it is also constatation of fact.
    But otherwise, of course, I don´t support insulting the religions. I dislike cartoons where Mohammad is depicted with dog´s tail etc. It´s all disgusting and low.
    I respect all mainstream religions. And wish everybody did it too. And people avoided unnecessary insults (however useful critiques are welcome).

    I am myself atheist (or agnostic), so maybe it is easy for me to talk about religion questions. But my parents have taught me to respect every mainstream religion. And I will teach it to my children.

    -“Also, if they are worried about religion+power (which neatly dovetails with your daily lecture), then why don’t they go after the Catholic church, or elements of the Finnish Evangelicals, who are quite happy to encourage AIDS in Africa and trample all over the rights of Finnish gay citizens, respectively. Yikes, it’s even true to say that you cannot be elected president of the USA if you are an atheist, but I don’t see people up in arms about Americans coming to Europe. It’s all so selective…..”

    I agree with you (see? I am not afraid from agreeing with you!). I also don´t understand double standarts of people. I have never really understood why religions should be mixed with earthly powers.

  90. Mark

    Laputis

    Of course you misinterpret wrongly what I write. And then you seek fashist nationalism and ethnic purity in my words. You are really making straw men.

    I see, so you didn’t write that visible minorities could not be accepted as ethnic Finns? My caricature was a summary of the arguments you have put forward.

    No, Mark, it’s not racism, it’s about ethnic purity,

    Laputis wrote:Don´t be Finnish-wannabe, you are not Finn anyway. Be Somali, and be proud of what you are. Nobody respects wannabees.

    See, you leave no room for diverse ethnicity, one or the other, in this case, the other.

    about genetic and linguistic ancestors,

    b) his or her genetic ancestry is too distant from Finnish genetic pole, this alone eliminates him or her to be ethnically Finnish. It’s even damn too visible by naked eye…

    and of course, the implied notion that the ‘differences’ that outsiders would bring to the family are somehow ‘unacceptable’.

    But you can achieve that with not making from them “ethnic Finns” by any cost. The visible minorities can be accepted by Finnish society just like what they are – visible minorities.

    See, no straw men there, Laputis, though I’m flattered that you are trying to learn my debating skills.

  91. Laputis

    “Well now, that isn’t entirely the whole truth, is it? You created the context for ‘visible minorities’ by deciding and telling us that this was a justifiable criteria for ethnic exclusion.”

    What ethnic exclusion means in your opinion? I don´t get you here, sorry.

    “This is nothing to do with the meaning of how ‘visible minorities’ is usually used. So, in fact, you were the one extending the context.”

    Maybe, but you should have understood it. If you didn´t understand, then it´s your own fault.

    “On that basis, I then returned to the basic idea of ‘visible minorities’ to see if it could be made to be consistent with the idea of ‘ethnic exclusion’, and that is when I made the point about those visible minorities not excluded in your definition. This draws attention to the arbitrary role given to ‘colour’, which in turn points out it’s inherent racism.”

    There is such fact, that overall genetic differences between humans and closest relatives, apes, are 2%. While differences between the most distant race members in human species can be 1%. See? Small differences at first glance, but not so small when you look closer.
    I believe in evolution, and I believe that humans evolved from primates. And I believe that, since going out of Africa, human species continued to evolve further, slowly dividing into branches, races, that later, if given time, would become different species. The races have not evolved into different species yet (and perhaps it will never happen due genetic flows), but they have became different. You can´t ignore this. You can call me racist, fashist or whatever “strawman” you want to make, but I point out you one of reasons, why people with genetically distant ancestries than Finns have, can´t be included into category “ethnic Finns”. Here you are exclusion. But it is based on objective fact, not based on racist ideology. After all I can “look through flowers” to mixed children, which I can include into Finnish ethnic category, if they have one Finnish parent.

    “That’s what should humiliate you. But it doesn’t. You refuse to accept the analysis, cry about the fact that I have taken the word out of context, when actually it was you who did it.”

    Then you was dumb if you didn´t understand in what context I used term “visible minorities”.

    “Laputis, you caught yourself in a trap. I merely pointed it out.”

    I don´t think it happened, more likely you have misunderstood me. But misunderstandings is typical thing in internet, so I forgive you.

  92. Mark

    Prophet must have been pedophile if he really married girl who was 6 (or 7) years old (it´s how is written in Koran). That´s insulting of course, but it is also constatation of fact.

    That’s just plain ignorance, Laputis, and dangerous ignorance, because you deliberately ascribe an extremely negative connotation to a man considered the holy founder of Islam.

    First, it was the norm in those days to marry children, and also to then wait for consummation of marriage. In this case, the girl appears to have been 9 when the marriage was consummated, which probably coincided with her menstruation, typically taken as a sign of having reached womanhood.

    As the average lifespan at those times in that part of the Middle East is thought to be 35 years of age, then already a quarter of the lifetime has been lived. In that context, the whole lifecycle is seen differently. Indeed, many ‘children’ were already working by that age.

    The modern idea of a ‘childhood’ stretching from 0-18, or 0-16 years is something of a modern invention.

    Applying today’s moral codes retroactively, when so many factors have changed is completely disingenuous. And of course it’s perfectly clear to everyone that it’s done merely as a smear, and not as part of a campaign for children’s rights.

    But again, the whole thing is just so selective….

    How about the gospel of Mark 10:7, in which Jesus affirms the Mosaic law on respect and obedience for one’s father and mother with the words

    “For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'”

    Are we to judge those words by today’s standards of treating children? What then would you say about Jesus, as a man, in regard to his view of children and as the founder of a religion?

    Hypocrisy!

  93. Laputis

    -“No, Mark, it’s not racism, it’s about ethnic purity,”

    WTF and LOL, what my saying got anything to do with “ethnic purity”? DWI is NOT ETHNIC FINN AT ALL. Read what I wrote about his son – HE CAN BE FINNISH. And, pardon, where do you see “ethnic purity” here? Is his son pure ethnic Finn? No, he is not.

    -“See, you leave no room for diverse ethnicity, one or the other, in this case, the other.”

    You have no clue what “ethnicity” means. To you “ethnicity” is same as “nationality”, even though they are different things.

    -“and of course, the implied notion that the ‘differences’ that outsiders would bring to the family are somehow ‘unacceptable’.

    It´s your words, I didn´t say or mean anything like that.

    -“See, no straw men there, Laputis, though I’m flattered that you are trying to learn my debating skills.”

    You have skills in misunderstanding and making straw men. I see.

  94. Mark

    I agree with you (see? I am not afraid from agreeing with you!). I also don´t understand double standarts of people. I have never really understood why religions should be mixed with earthly powers.

    You agree, but you miss the point. The point was that people are selective in criticising Islam and elements of Islamic culture, saying it is incompatible with modern societies, and yet ignoring how many aspects of modern societies already reflect those kinds of things. If you agree, then how can you also agree with the argument that Muslims don’t fit in with Western democracies?

  95. Laputis

    -“That’s just plain ignorance, Laputis, and dangerous ignorance, because you deliberately ascribe an extremely negative connotation to a man considered the holy founder of Islam.

    First, it was the norm in those days to marry children, and also to then wait for consummation of marriage. In this case, the girl appears to have been 9 when the marriage was consummated, which probably coincided with her menstruation, typically taken as a sign of having reached womanhood.

    As the average lifespan at those times in that part of the Middle East is thought to be 35 years of age, then already a quarter of the lifetime has been lived. In that context, the whole lifecycle is seen differently. Indeed, many ‘children’ were already working by that age.

    The modern idea of a ‘childhood’ stretching from 0-18, or 0-16 years is something of a modern invention.

    Applying today’s moral codes retroactively, when so many factors have changed is completely disingenuous. And of course it’s perfectly clear to everyone that it’s done merely as a smear, and not as part of a campaign for children’s rights.

    But again, the whole thing is just so selective….

    How about the gospel of Mark 10:7, in which Jesus affirms the Mosaic law on respect and obedience for one’s father and mother with the words

    “For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’”

    Are we to judge those words by today’s standards of treating children? What then would you say about Jesus, as a man, in regard to his view of children and as the founder of a religion?

    Hypocrisy!”

    Ignorance or not, but Koran and Bible do look funny from modern perspective. And BTW why do you think that I wouldn´t criticise Bible? I would mention it too, if you would talk about Christianity. But this time you were talking about Islam.
    I have somewhat negative attitude to Christianity, because it brought bloodshed,colonisation by Russia and russification, and many other bad things to my ethnicity. If given reason, I would criticize Christianity and Bible too. So no hypocrisy in my case.

  96. Laputis

    “If you agree, then how can you also agree with the argument that Muslims don’t fit in with Western democracies?”

    Have I ever said anything like that? Where? When?

  97. Mark

    Laputis

    Are you really this fucking dense?

    WTF and LOL, what my saying got anything to do with “ethnic purity”? DWI is NOT ETHNIC FINN AT ALL. Read what I wrote about his son – HE CAN BE FINNISH. And, pardon, where do you see “ethnic purity” here? Is his son pure ethnic Finn? No, he is not.

    You are saying he cannot be ethnic Finn. Even if you say his son can be Finnish, it doesn’t change the fact that YOU are denying him entry into the Finnish family based on the roots of his parents. His roots are firmly in Finland. He’s told you that. But that is not good enough, clearly not ‘pure’ enough to your idea of ethnicity.

    My point has been all along that his ‘ethnicity’ is not a single entity, but a mixed entity, and that is reflected in what he says about himself and how he feels and would describe himself as ‘a Finn’ but also a Somali. YOU deny him that group membership, though you do hide behind the idea of saying it is ‘other Finns’ who would not accept him because he is part of the visible minority. That is racism. Except that you don’t see it. Blind as fucking bat, you are.

    Listen, mate, you can define ethnicity any way you like, as strictly as you want, and then say, hey, look, they are not in this club! And present it all as if it is the most natural thing in the world. And yet isn’t, not one bit. Because ethnicity is, as naturally as can be, diverse. It is people identifying over similar characteristics, but also expressing great diversity within that. There are many countries in the world, India being the most obvious, where there are people of lighter and very dark skin (Dravidians) who share the same general ‘ethnicity’, including language and ancestors. There is no reason why it cannot be so, except for the racism that says, ‘you are not good enough to join our club, because you have dark skin, you are a visible minority’. It’s bollocks, and you defend it, Laputis.

  98. Mark

    “If you agree, then how can you also agree with the argument that Muslims don’t fit in with Western democracies?”

    Have I ever said anything like that? Where? When?

    So you do not see Sharia as incompatible with living in the West? You have absolutely no problem with Muslims who would like to see Sharia law implemented in Muslim communities in Finland? You accept that there is room for negotiation on the rights of Muslims to implement their own judicial system in regard to those that CHOOSE or prefer to be subject to that local judicial system, providing the sentencing does not violate any of the rights set out in that countries national legislation? It’s not easy to negotiate a system like that, but it’s perfectly feasible. In the UK, Scotland, Wales and England have several layers of autonomous judiciary, from local bylaws, to national legislatures in Wales and Scotland. The idea of groups of people being subject to different legal systems in some respects is not ALIEN to Western countries, though I cannot speak for Finland in this matter.

    So, you think that Muslims can fit in, but they have no rights to politically advocate on behalf of their own communities? I mean, tell me if I’m wrong.

    I apologise if I misrepresent your views, Laputis, but I’m not convinced yet that I have.

  99. Mark

    It is hypocrisy if I have somewhat negative attitude to Christianity, because it brought bloodshed,colonisation by Russia and russification, and many other bad things to my ethnicity. If given reason, I would criticize Christianity and Bible too. So no hypocrisy in my case.

    Yes, I should remember that you are not a representative of PS, even though you defend many of their ideas in your writing. When I start to see you defending Islamaphobes over their criticisms of sharia or other elements, such as the pedophilia charge, then it’s very hard to suddenly imagine that you are not yourself using this argument as yet another argument against increased racial and religious diversity within Finland or elsewhere. My thought has been that you are against diversification. But hey, if you say you’ve nothing against the Muslims, I’ll take you at your word.

  100. Laputis

    Mark, do you even know with whom you are talking to? Let me represent to you. I am from Russia, I represent one of Russia´s over 120 ethnic minorities. My ethnic origins are non-Russian and non-European. Let´s say, I am Asian (although this term is far-fetched). I don´t look like European. Genetically I am quite far from European genetic pool (and I have been tested genetically). In Finland, I do stick out with my appearance. I am what DWI described as “having very dark hair but fair skin, and yet receiving racism”. I have Finnish spouse, who is of different race than I am. I don´t have children yet, but if I will have once, I will allow them to choose identity of mine or my spouse´s, or both. Of course I hope they will choose my identity, at least they will not forget it, but I will not be against if they will choose Finnish side, even entirely.
    I am not so pro “pure ethnicity” as you keep talking. And I am not racist.
    When I talk “racist” things in your eyes, you might think that I talk against myself. No, I am not masochist, I don´t talk against myself. I talk IN FAVOR of myself.
    And let put things in this way. Your attempt to “Finnish-wash” all immigrants in Finland is disturbing to many people. Not only to Finnish nationalists, but also to many immigrants like me. I want to stay what I am. I don´t want to be Finnish. Not because I have something against Finns, but because I AM NOT FINNISH. I don´t want to pretend to be what I am not. It would show that I have low self-esteem or self-denial. Let me to skip it.

  101. Mark

    Laputis

    I do get tired of you, Laputis. Time and time again you have misrepresented my arguments.

    I am not so pro “pure ethnicity” as you keep talking. And I am not racist.

    Good, glad to hear it. Now back that up by respecting DWI’s right to think of himself as a Finn!

    If you can imagine your child have ‘both’ identities, yours and his/her mother’s, then you can also imagine DWI having both Somali and Finnish identity. He is not getting his Finnish identity from his parents, but directly from the ‘motherland’.

    Why do you feel the need to say that ethnicity is something decided by rules, and the only rule you offer is that he belongs to a visible minority, and also that he doesn’t have ancestors here, neither of which invalidate his own personal experience of growing up here, speaking Finnish with his school mates, marrying a Finn and generally having a life and home in Finland. In fact, your response to him was to tell him not to be a Finn-wannabee, which is about one of the most insulting things I’ve read on this blog, Laputis. I mean, truly insulting………..!!!!!

    I have argued ONLY for the right of individuals to decide for themselves based on their own experiences. I have argued that you do not have the RIGHT to decide what ethnicity he is, or to create such a narrow definition of Finnish ethnicity that it naturally excludes him because of the colour of his skin or the lack of ancestors in Finland.

    Your attempt to “Finnish-wash” all immigrants in Finland is disturbing to many people. Not only to Finnish nationalists, but also to many immigrants like me. I want to stay what I am.

    You are fucking insane if you think that that is what i have been arguing for in this thread.

  102. Mark

    laputis

    it is you that says that seeks to make nationality wholly about ethnicity. I understand why you do this, because it’s much easier to argue against migrants or their children adopting the nationality of those countries to which they move. But your reasoning would deny Africans a national identity in e.g. America, France, Sweden, the UK, Spain or any other country where there are significant members of those nationalities who have origins in Africa.

    To be a Finn is partly to belong to the Finnish ethnic group, which loosely speaking involves shared language, shared culture, shared biology, but also entails very significant variations, including a several distinct languages, and also including the greatest genetic diversity in the whole of Europe.

    A person who shares many of these ethnic characteristics, including the language, the culture and something of the shared heritage that comes with these two can be said to share something of the ethnicity, at least in a subjective sense. And really, that is all we are talking about. Because his children will be Finns, no questions asked, and they will not be so different from him.

    The point is whether to make space at the table of brotherhood that unites nations or not. Your approach is to deny them space.

    However, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights sets it out very clearly what the modern view is on this:

    (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

    See, people can change their nationality. That means someone who was not a Finn can become a Finn. The idea is not so preposterous as you seem to want to make out.

    See, you are denying DWI the right to ‘change his nationality’. How do you feel about that, knowing that you are violating his human rights? And let’s think for a second, if anyone would be considered eligible to change their nationality, from Somali to Finn, then DWI would be.

    As usual with you, talk about ethnicity and Russia and minorities and religion only get in the way of the key discussion about human rights of individuals and the right to live free of discrimination. This is not about ‘giving Finnishness away’, but about recognising the proper grounds for a shared humanity, and human rights. What you propose in the way of very narrow definitions of nationality, based on macroethnicity (racial or biological elements) with no consideration to microethnicity (subjective elements), only serves to undermine the human rights of individuals.

    Give it some thought, Laputis, before you come back on here again and tell me once again how I’m Finnish-washing ALL the migrants in Finland, denying you your national or ethnic identity etc., etc.

  103. eyeopener

    Clapotis is a non-Finn trying to tell other non-Finns to get a hike. It can’t be worst. Such an a….e who pretends he -because of his so-called anti-Sovjet experience- is allowed to have the decisive power of the JUDGE OF ALL MATTERS.

    Clapotis!! A nice request. F……ck off and go back to your slimy quarters. Try kiss and lick asses of those people you are so eagerly trying to convince about your racist behavior. Advice: your friend (or maybe you are A.) Allan has good company for you in the UK. Kombat 88 is a good sparring ground for your mentality. Mentality………..what’s that??

    You are not worth anything!!!

  104. justicedemon

    Laputis

    Please explain exactly how it is that youknow that DWI has no Finnish ancestors. Have you studied his family tree for 14 generations? If it turned out that he does have Finnish ancestors after all, then how would your assessment change?

    I suspect that you make this judgement purely based on a certain arbitrarily defined set of features of (assumed) physical appearance, and without any knowledge of ancestry at all.

    So what you have is a Finnish citizen who lives in Finland, speaks fluent, idiomatic Finnish, thinks in Finnish, counts in Finnish, takes a regular sauna, supports the Leijonat, has completed the Finnish curriculum of compulsory education and senior high school, has completed Finnish military or civil alternative service and so. This person also claims to be Finnish.

    Can you see how silly you look arguing that he’s not Finnish because the colour of his skin or the shape of his nose suggest that he might have certain ancestors?

    If you can’t see this, then let’s have another 200 column inches of your clowning. 🙂

    You should start by telling me that I haven’t understood what you wrote, and then you should be very careful to (1) ascribe all sorts of arguments to me that I haven’t made and (2) not to respond to any of the foregoing questions.

    [Sits back and waits for the deluge of crap.]

  105. eyeopener

    Hi JD.

    Did you look up the french word Clapotis? It’s expressing exactly your last between brackets sentence. The repeating deluge of crap like the waves on the beach.

    But such a nick-name is actually an insult to the waves. At least they are peaceful. Clapotis is not!!

    Let’s go to the beach and listen to the sound of waves on the beach and let’s not listen to this crap-guy.He is just an empty shell.

    But respect for your patience!!

  106. Seppo

    Laputis

    ““Finn” is first and foremost ethnic term. Only secondarily it is national term. But the joke with the national term here is, that Finland originally is created as country for the ethnic Finns.”

    Wrong. Twice. Firstly, ‘Finn’ is primarily a national term. Secondarily it is an ethnic term referring to Finnish-speaking Finns. Secondly, Finland was created as a country for all its inhabitants. The main creators were Swedish-speakers and many of them knew little or no Finnish at all. In your book these people like Snellman and Runeberg were no Finns at all – however, they created this nation and for sure saw themselves as Finns.

    Ever since the word ‘suomalainen’ has been used to cover all people living in and identifying with Finland. The fuss about ethnicity has started only resently with the arrival of immigrants. It is true that some people have started emphasizing the ethnic element of Finnishness but those people are in the minority and their views are not accepted by the majority.

    “are you against inventing term “Finlander” or “Finlandish” distinguishable from “Finn” and “Finnish”?
    In Russian language, as I told, there is distinction between ethnic Russian (“Russkij”) and Russian national (“Rossijanin”). ”

    Also in Swedish there exists this distinction into ‘finnar’ and ‘finländare’. Neither the Finnish ‘suomenmaalainen’ nor the English ‘Finlander’ have become popular.

    I understand in a way the need for this distinction. Some people representing minorities have wanted to establish it in the Finnish and English language. If the minorities prefer it, I can go for it. I would like to emphasize that, owing to the nature of Finnish identity as primarily a national one, Finnish language has not needed the distinction. ‘Suomalainen’ is used of everybody and you can see it easily when for example reading a newspaper. When Hesari writes that “Suomalaiset valitsivat uuden presidentit” they surely don’t mean that it was the so called ethnic Finns who chose the president.

    Personally I feel that there is no need to start emphasizing ethnic background any more than is already done. For me, the national identity is more important. It can be also connected to the Finnish language and culture but in a way that also the minority languages will survive. I think it is important that one can be a Finn and continue to speak another language at home. If not, there is a great risk that many minority group members will choose to abandon their language and culture completely since it is always easier and in a way tempting to become part of the dominating group.

    “if country Finland will dissapear (f.e. it will be conquered by Russia), then what the term “Finn” will mean, because there is no country anymore defining such term?”

    Probably Finnish-ness would in this case become more of an ethnic category referring to Finnish-speakers. Some non-Finnish speakers who previously identified as Finns might start identifying differently. Let’s hope we will never face such a situation.

  107. Laputis

    @ Mark: you still haven´t understand me.

    @ Eyeopener: you sound like silly school boy

    @ Justicedemon: I have already explained this.

    @Seppo: thanks for understanding, you really take my writing exactly as I have meant. And if you think that “Finn” is primarily national, not ethnic term, so be it. But I would advise to be careful with too much openess.

  108. Mark

    @Seppo: thanks for understanding, you really take my writing exactly as I have meant.

    Are you looking for allies? Fact is, Seppo disagreed with you for much the same reasons that I did.

    Seppo wrote:Wrong. Twice. Firstly, ‘Finn’ is primarily a national term. Secondarily it is an ethnic term referring to Finnish-speaking Finns. Secondly, Finland was created as a country for all its inhabitants. The main creators were Swedish-speakers and many of them knew little or no Finnish at all.

    And, of course, you didn’t feel the need to respond to this criticism of your rigid defintions of what it means to a Finn.

    Mark wrote: However, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights sets it out very clearly what the modern view is on this:

    (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

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