If I were an ultra-nationalist immigrant basher in Finland

by , under All categories, Enrique

If I were an ultra nationalist and enjoyed bashing immigrants for fun and political profit, Finland is the country to be in today.

I could open my mouth and say almost anything I please no matter how offensive and absurd my statements would be to other cultures and groups. Nobody can call me a racist because I am only exercising my right to free speech and being “critical” of immigrants and immigration to this country.

In the process of  “defending free speech” and requiring immigrants to follow new xenophobic  laws, which I would never dare enforce on myself never mind my constituents, my popularity would soar to stellar heights. I could get a lot of votes by spreading distrust and hatred of people who are different from me.

There are so few immigrants in Finland, never mind Muslims and Roma from Romania and Bulgaria, that I can actually name those that I am bashing. The countries biggest dailies allow me to print my xenophobic statements because some of them stand behind, albeit silently, with what I say.

Yes, it is an excellent time to be an ultra-nationalist immigrant basher in Europe!

  1. Tiwaz

    No smoke without fire.

    Why are immigrants and foreigners receiving so much dislike all over Europe?

    Oh yes! Because they fail to integrate! Fail to show they want to be part of community as it is! AND they bring crime a plenty.

    What we see is not rise of xenophobia, but rather backlash against idiotic principles of multiculturalism which do not work.

    People of Europe are sick and tired of being treated as second class citizens in their native lands.
    Immigrants had their honeymoon, they failed to show that they want to be part of community, they failed to integrate. Instead they started demanding appeasement, and idiots in governments and press obliged.

    Every critizism has for long time been suppressed with cries of racism, where there was none. It could not go on forever, and now we see the backlash of this stupidity.

    Immigrants and multiculturalists have used their racism card few hundred times too many.

  2. Klay_Immigrant

    I have read quite a few of your articles and must admit im frankly horrified by your views.

    As an immigrant myself, I must confess multi-cultrialism does not work. It’s an experiment gone wrong that cannot be reversed but will only get worse. It segregates communities creating ghettos in cities. This in turn causes an increase in crime and poorer performance in schools in that area. Most immigrants refuse to adapt and integrate into society but instead socialise only with ‘one of their own’. Generally its not a case of the host country not willing to include them. Nowadays they are given every opportunity unlike in the past. In England where I live there’s a term called ‘positive discrimination’ which means if your an ethnic minority or immigrant the chances of getting specific well paid jobs are more likely than a white Englishman or woman with similar or even better qualifications and skills.

    The statistics speak for themselves, ethnic minorities and immigrants generally perform worse at school, are more likely to commit a crime and more likely to be unemployed. What use is that to a rich prosperous European country. Im hoping Finland doesnt end up like England has.

    Im not saying all immigrants and ethnic minorities are bad but the majority do not have the mentality of what an immigrant should be, a person who chooses to live in country and lives the way a local does. If their not happy, no one is forcing them to stay.

    Please before you call me racist or xenophobic or any other term I am of mixed (black and white) race that has lived in various countries. Also you may think if my opinion is like this why dont I return to my own country. Well my parents are from different countries, I was born in another country, raised in another country, and spent my high school and uni in another country so I dont really belong anywhere tho my passport is Spanish since birth. Im interested to hear any responses to the issues I’ve raised.

    • Enrique

      Hi Klay_Immigrant, you may disagree with my views but being “horrified” sounds “monstrous.” Thank you for sharing you views with us. If you are an immigrant, then it proves what I have said before: some immigrants are more conservative and nationalistic than locals. Why? Because you are competing for limited jobs and opportunities.

      –The statistics speak for themselves, ethnic minorities and immigrants generally perform worse at school, are more likely to commit a crime and more likely to be unemployed. What use is that to a rich prosperous European country.

      So if you are an immigrant, why did you leave your country? You are, as you state, doing yourself a lot of harm. You are going to do poorly and will not succeed. I disagree, however, totally with you on this matter. Look at countries like the US that absorb millions of new immigrants without imploding. Give people opportunities and they will go for them. Be exclusive and use cheap tricks like prejudice and you will have those social problems we see today in Europe.

  3. Klay_Immigrant

    Also another subject to be pointed out is that Finland hasn’t got a far right wing political party who main policy is limiting immigration and ethnic minorities unlike many countries in Europe such as the UK with the British nationalist party, Switzerland with the Swiss People’s Party, France with the National Front party and so on.

    If immigration was so amazing in these countries with large and significant foreigner populations then how come these political parties exist? Also if Finland was so racist as one is led to believe in this website then how come a far right party doesnt exist there?

    • Enrique

      Klay_Immigrant, did I mention that Finland has far-right parties? One of these is Muutos 2011 and others could be classified as ulta nationalist or xenophobic.

  4. JusticeDemon

    It’s interesting that Klay_Immigrant views these matters in terms of skin colour. The far right is less sophisticated in the UK than in Finland, and its Internet warriors have not yet learned to translate differences of appearance into differences of behaviour when making pronouncements for public consumption.

    All of the usual counterexamples apply. Glasgow has the worst unemployment and violent crime rate in the UK but one of the lowest immigrant populations of any UK city. Immigrant children of Asian descent significantly outperform their classmates at State-maintained schools, and so on. The British in Finland are immigrants too. Does this mean that they are more likely to be criminals or to underachieve at school?

    As most immigration to the UK has been from Commonwealth countries, there has generally been less emphasis on how vitally important it is for immigrants to speak English at advanced educated native speaker standard in order to get a job cleaning toilets. Judging by your complete inability to use apostrophes correctly or to recognise the difference between “there”, they’re and “their”, Klay_Immigrant, I’d say that you must be completely unemployable and should go back to wherever your great grandparents were born (pick one!).

  5. Klay_Immigrant

    Please Enrique do not compare the US to Europe in terms of immigration. The reason is because nearly the whole population of America are immigrants of some sort. Only the indigenous people the native americans who aren’t immigrants. Nearly everyone there can trace their roots to Europe or Africa or Asia. The same applies other ‘New World’ locations such as South America, Australia, and New Zealand who’s indigenous people are the Amerindians, Aborigines, and Māori repectively. These are now the minority in those countries or continents. That’s the difference between ‘New World’ and ‘Old World’ of Europe. They were conquered.

    Enrique are you telling me that Europe has more social problems than US? That’s why the US has a higher crime rate, higher income inequality, higher racial tensions, and lower literacy rate. Has it successfully absorbed immigrants like you said? Well when you enter any city there are large ghettos full of immigrants. Even the ghettos are segregated by racial, religious or gang lines. If that’s not imploding then I guess only WWII is.

    I can belong to 5 countries based on my parents, where I was born, raised and spent the majority of later schooling as stated before. So I didn’t have a country where I left to become an immigrant as you put it Enrique. I can easily get a British passport and not be considered an immigrant but there’s no reason for that as I’ve had a Spanish passport all my life.

    JusticeDemon if you call being a 2nd year PHD student in chemistry at a well established University completely unemployable then you must feel education is not important. You gave Glasgow an example which is correct but there will always be places where generalisations don’t occur. Look at the national level and I stand by my comments that immigrants and ethnic minorities perform worse at schools and are over represented in jails.

    • Enrique

      Klay_Immigrant, ever thought that the first European or Finn was an immigrant? All of our ancestors came from somewhere else. When we speak of being a “tribe” or that we are “an indigenous group facing extinction” because of “savage” immigrants we enter into or borderline or racist discourse. Please read your history and prehistory again.

      With respect to more social problems in Europe or in the US, I am not going to get into that kind of debate because it is an argument that will not take us anywhere. A society has to have pathways of incorporation for all of its inhabitants (including newcomers), grant opportunities, promote equal rights to ALL if it wants to minimize social problems. Historically, Europe’s big pitfall in the last two centuries was nationalism and racism. It had fixated this region of the world to such an extent that it ended horrifying itself. Are you glorifying those things that led us down that slippery slope of mass murder (Nazi concentration camps and racial policy/persecution of political dissidents in the Soviet Union of the 1930s to name only two examples) and war?

      Immigration is a PART of humanity. It is NATURAL that people move and are curious to find out if the grass is actually greener on the other side. Not accepting this is like saying that having children is evil.

  6. student_immigrant

    “The statistics speak for themselves, ethnic minorities and immigrants generally perform worse at school, are more likely to commit a crime and more likely to be unemployed. ”

    Do you have any reliable source for this claim. From my personal experience, i can say that in general foreign students do quite well in studies.

    I myself have received award for excellent studies. And my 8 year old nephew is also topping in his class. And most of my friends have GPA of at least 4.5/5. Barring few who have to work long hours to cover their living expenses.

    • Enrique

      Hi student_immigrant, thank you for that good question. Let’s see what information Klay_Immigrant uses to back up his/her affirmations.

  7. Klay_Immigrant

    As you are talking about GPA on a scale of 0-5 I’m assuming you reside in America. As mentioned in my previous post, the same logic and criteria can not be applied to the US and other ‘New World’ countries compared to Europe in terms of immigration for reasons I already mentioned.

    The US population is nearly entirely made up of people with immigrant anchestry from all over the world unlike Europe. This is reflected in the languages spoken there so comparisons between immigrants and the indigenous population is practically impossible.

  8. student_immigrant

    No, I reside in Finland and so does my nephew. And so does my friends. I think this is a lie that has been repeated too many times on various forums. Tell a lie 1000 times and hope that it becomes true.

  9. Klay_Immigrant

    xyz you obviously did not read my previous post. What is a ‘native’ of America defined by that interview? Is it black,white,asian,or indian? We dont know as she never mentioned the ethnicity of the natives. If a black immigrant does better in school than a black ‘native’ what does that prove? Does that mean multi-cultralism works? Well think about from this view point, if black immigrants stopped going to America then still there will still be a sizeable black ‘native’ population therefore still multi-cultural. The same applies to all the other races.

    It only takes a few years of residing in a particular country to become a national so the ethnic diversity is hidden in that respect when refering to immigrants. This is why it’s difficult comparing immigrants in ‘New World’ countries.

    • Enrique

      Klay_Immigrant, taking into account your hostility towards immigrants and immigration, the last thing you care about are defending the rights of Native Americans or other indigenous groups. You only use this argument to show that you too are like them in danger of facing “extinction.” Give me a break! How can a person with such negative ideas of immigration and othernes be ready to defend Native groups? Yes, you probably are, as long as these groups are (a) thousands of miles way and (b) buried deep in history.

  10. xyz

    She differentiates in this video about people who are native born and people who are foreign born. It has nothing to do if somebody is for example a native black person.

    What I just don’t understand is how can you say that multiculturalism does not work if you are yourself a multicultural person and you even do your PhD? This makes not really sense. Further, I was wandering what your view is concerning the issue of just changing your Passport? Do you think you will be accepted in the “old world” as a native just by having the passport of a specific country?

    If you say that multiculturalism does not work, how is it possible that I work here with plenty of other nationalities (I mean we are all immigrants). We don’t have any fights or gangs and we do not live in ghettos. However, we have one important thing: a job and perspectives.

    Today, I have read an article in the newspaper that Europe may face social unrest since the unemployment rate for young people is really high. Many of them do not see any perspectives. You see what the key issue is: having a perspective.

  11. JusticeDemon

    Klay_Immigrant, August 12, 2010 at 4:36 pm:

    . You gave Glasgow an example which is correct but there will always be places where generalisations don’t occur.

    This is a nice example of how prejudices survive in the teeth of glaring counterexamples. You have already made up your mind about immigrants, and so any facts that contradict your views must be somehow exceptional. From what you said about yourself, you are the very embodiment of a spectacular counterexample to your own opinion. Let’s pass over your earlier inability to write correct English and ask why you didn’t fail at school.

    As a research chemist, would you airily dismiss the failure of raw sodium to react with water at room temperature as an example where a generalisation didn’t apply?

    I do wonder whether direct experience of the UK job market will change your perceptions of the causes of social exclusion. A British equivalent of Tiwaz would pass you over in favour of someone with two GCSEs purely because you can’t use apostrophes correctly. There are plenty to whom the combination of foreign background plus chemistry studies is already enough to consider you a risk to national security. These are the attitudes that you are defending, Uncle Tom.

  12. Klay_Immigrant

    Xyz let me answer your question. I think the procedures and requirements to change one’s passport is too simple and the time taken too short. I mean it’s possible in most of Europe to change your passport nationality every 5 years just by living there. Whether you will be accepted in that country is down to the individual and how they have integrated into that society. A passport may open a few doors but people’s view and feelings are harder to change.

    I don’t know what your point is on multicultualism. Obviously there are examples of immigrants who have done well as you mentioned but you can’t deny in that every and i mean every large western city with a large immigrant or ethnic minority population there is also a ghettos full of them causing numerous problems for that city.

    People yourself included xyz seem to think as an immigrant if you get a job then that’s it. You have done well and integrated. Ofcourse it’s a big factor but it’s not that simple. Some of the other factors would be near impossible to measure. For example if a chinese man worked in a chinese restaurant in china town in london and lived with other people of his nationality and never spoke or socialised with an english person unless at work then are they integrated? No they have segregated themselves. Is that the fault of the host nation? No the immigrant chose to live like that. Is that beneficial to the country as a whole? Absoloutely not.

    By moving abroad an immigrant has to open him or herself up to a new culture and way of living. They have to adapt and try to live and behave generally the way a normal citizen in their new country would. That’s what keeps the harmony and peace. It works both ways for Westerners and people from 3rd world countries. I mean a Western woman wouldn’t go to a muslim country and start wearing a mini-skirts and low cut tops would she?

    Respect the environment you are in and you will be respected by the people. Disrespect the environment then face the consequences and that is not racism or xenophobia.

    • Enrique

      –Respect the environment you are in and you will be respected by the people. Disrespect the environment then face the consequences and that is not racism or xenophobia.

      In an open democratic Western society like England public places are shared. You seem to be denying that there are people from other cultures in your country that can claim Britain as ther home as much as you can.

  13. Klay_Immigrant

    Ok Justin it seems you have the inability to stick to the topic at hand but instead throw insults and make it personal. I’m sure politicians will try that new technique next time they meet for parliment. I’m above that and will not lower my standards to meet yours.

    It’s funny if you are of mixed or black race and critise anything a fellow person of the same race has done then you are an Uncle Tom. If you think O.J. Simpson is guilty, Uncle Tom. If you want to better yourself and live in an affluent white area, Uncle Tom. You don’t talk like a gangstar but do well in school instead, Uncle Tom. I guess the most powerful man in the world (Obama) is an Uncle Tom then. My point is made clear.

    Aslo anyone who thinks that a Spanish national studying a PHD in chemistry is a threat to national security is very stupid and ignorant and would not be in a position to decide my future or whether I get a job or not. It’s ok justin just because I’m more educated than you, doesn’t mean you need to be bitter and resentful.

  14. Klay_Immigrant

    I’m going to ask a serious question. Do you think it’s right that some large cities in developed countries in the near future will have a majority population of immigrants or ethnic minorities compared to the indigenous people?

    I’ll give you an example. An estimated 26% of Oslo’s population consists of immigrants (about 152,000 inhabitants), predicted to increase to between 44% and 51% around 2030. From 1970 to 2007, the ethnic Norwegian population decreased by 10.1% while the immigrant population increased by 823.6%

    It’s already happened in smaller areas across Europe.

    Second question do you think it’s stable and advisable for a country to be ruled by an ethnic minority population? An example of this was South Africa in the recent past.

    I know my answers but I’m interested to hear yours.

    • Enrique

      –I’m going to ask a serious question. Do you think it’s right that some large cities in developed countries in the near future will have a majority population of immigrants or ethnic minorities compared to the indigenous people?

      The problem with your reasoning is that you think immigrants and their cultures remain the same. There always exists the us (so-called natives) and them (so-called immigrants). Cultures change and certainly both influence each other. You can take two routes here: (1) exclude or (2) include. It is as simples as that. Did you know that Buenos Aires had 49.4% of the population was foreign in 1914? This does not include the children of their foreign parents. Did Argentina implode? No. Why? Because these people were included in society and their children through education and later on by military service.

      Cultures change constantly.

      Your best bet is to ACCEPT that there are minorities and INCLUDE them in our society. That is the best social investment you can make for the future.

      History will teach you that after too much racism and bigotry, people rightfully rise against this type of discrimination. It pisses people off to put it lightly. It can lead to the total destruction of your country as did the xnophobia of the Nazi regime in May 1945.

      –Second question do you think it’s stable and advisable for a country to be ruled by an ethnic minority population? An example of this was South Africa in the recent past.

      Nice try but these statement does not make sense. You want to kick out immigrants from Europe, or are afraid that they “will take over your culture,” and then you speak in favor of the blacks in apartheid South Africa. I don’t understand your logic. Are you suggesting that there will be “a white-versus-immigrant race war?”

      Apartheid was NOT a democratic system. It was imposed through brute force. Its main aim was to oppress and EXCLUDE the majority of South Africans from society at the expense of a minority. Are you suggesting that immigrants and their children will do the same in Europe? What about if they are elected democartically? Isn’t that (sorry to horrify you) the way representative government works? You sound like a person in the US in the 1950s who was horrified that blacks would represent him/her in Congress/Senate.

      People from all walks of life, cultures, religions and life styles have a RIGHT to society. It is not you baby and never will be.

  15. Klay_Immigrant

    Final question for you Enrique, if as you put it ‘immigration is a part of humanity’ and ‘not accepting this is like saying children are evil’ then why do border controls exist in every country of the world? If it’s so natural then why don’t governments allow anyone to go anywhere at anytime?

    • Enrique

      –then why do border controls exist in every country of the world?

      Because there are nations and nations like to guard their interests. It does not mean that they DO NOT WANT immigrants or tourists. One of the reasons why the world is messed up, or why there is what you call the “developed” and “underdeveloped” world, is because we can corral people in crappy nations so we don’t have to deal with problems like inequality, poverty and ecological disasters. If I lived in such a nation, it is my human right to seek better opportunities elsewhere. I am not going to stay and throw away my life in such a country. Humans are survivors many won’t conform to making peanuts.

  16. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique please don’t compare Argentina or US to Europe. Is there such a thing as an Argentinian or US language? No they speak Spanish or English. That’s the difference between ‘New World’ and ‘Old World’ plus many other reasons already explained in previous posts in this article. Not going to repeat myself.

    • Enrique

      The US and Argentina as examples show that people from diverse cultures can coexist and live togther. Your argument that it isn’t possible because you see yourself as “a Native European (like Native American).”

  17. Klay_Immigrant

    Yup Enrique let all of Africa and the rest of the 3rd World into Europe as it’s their right to a better living and life. That will improve humanity. Everyone will hold hands and heal the world.

    • Enrique

      Please don’t twist my words, Klay_Immigrant. How many Europeans left this continent in the late-19 and early 20th century? Read history.

  18. xyz

    Klay_Immigrant: Concerning your Ghettos in the big cities…I think the problem in the US is that they do not have a welfare system which is compareable to the ones in many European countries. Let’s take Australia. Young people from all the world are going to Australia to study for a degree. After graduation they apply for a residence permit. Currently, they have an unemployment rate of 5.1% which is half compared to e.g. Finland with around 11%. When I lived in Australia I didn’t see any Ghettos there.

    Concerning your passport. Yes it is indeed possible to change your passport within 5 years. But if you are from another European country, do you really think it is important anymore to change your passport since we have no borders and everybody can go and work/live where they want to live within Europe. Initially, the problem was that many people from Eastern European countries went to Western European countries. However, even this process slows down since economies in those new European countries are developing. We have many Polish people here in Ireland and many of them left home after a few years or thinking of leaving home in the future. This is actually also mentioned here: herehttp://www.hs.fi/english/article/Marrying+into+Finland+/1135258999619

  19. JusticeDemon

    Klay_Immigrant, August 13, 2010 at 1:22 am

    Ok Justin it seems you have the inability to stick to the topic at hand but instead throw insults and make it personal.

    Feigning offence is a tired old debating tactic. Answer the points made.

  20. Tony Garcia

    “I could open my mouth and say almost anything I please no matter how offensive and absurd my statements would be to other cultures and groups. Nobody can call me a racist because I am only exercising my right to free speech and being “critical” of immigrants and immigration to this country.”

    Criticize what peoples think is one thing, but criticize the fact that they are able to say it…?…

    And this is coming from someone who was born in a country with, no long ago, has suffered probably one of the most oppressive dictatorship in Latin America.

    …However…

    Someone who had the luck and privilege to escape from all this and grew up in the US, blessed by the first amendment.

    My old grandmother was a wise woman and used to say something with is quite appropriate to this…

    “A gente nao da valor pro que tem” (We don’t value what we take for granted).

    • Enrique

      Tony, where have you been? Long time no hear.

      –“A gente nao da valor pro que tem” (We don’t value what we take for granted).

      It is because I value these freedoms that I point them out in the blog. All types of extremism (ultra right or left) is bad for society. It is very difficult to look at matters in a levelled fashion when one is too far in the extremes.

      That is why you have a right to point out your ideas and my right to disagree with them. But I will throw you the same question I did a few months ago: All types of minorities live in Europe. That is a fact. Acceptance of this fact is the first big step in the right direction. Or do you suggest something different?

  21. Tony Garcia

    Klay_Immigrant you are quite right mate, I agree with most of what you have said, however you may have mixed up the terms a bit. Immigrants are a very broad term and it means just about anyone how is not born where he/she lives, you probably know that already. My children are immigrants and are doing very well at school. My soon has been identified as gifted and is under assessment to see if he needs to go to special school, he’s far ahead of his class mates.

    Well what can you expect? of a mix of Finnish/Italian/Spanish blood gave him just the perfect genetic composition, this added to the fact that he’s brought up under strict Christian/Conservative values, both at home and school, just can’t go wrong…

    The academic underachievement and overrepresentation on crime statistics and jail population comes not from immigrants in general but ethnic minorities. I have already posted here news about this in the UK, this is also reality in the US, Australia and apparently Canada. Underachievement is not the only problem found at schools massively populated by minorities, some are already installing metal detectors at the door. So they are very “enriched”…

    The Guardian once printed an editorial about this written by Trevor Phillips, a man you wouldn’t thrust to ask the time. He, of course, blame it all on “institutional racism”. So basically it’s all the books and pens fault, when asked how much is 2+2 the kids try to write 4 but the racist pen writes 5 instead.

    And don’t worry about what Demon said about you. He’s using a classic leftwing tactic – attack you personally and ignore what you are saying. If you keep writing to this blog better get used to this, however this is a very good thermometer, when you get attacked be sure that you are dead on.

  22. Tony Garcia

    “I have said before: some immigrants are more conservative and nationalistic than locals. Why? Because you are competing for limited jobs and opportunities.”

    So amigo Enrique, is that it? Really? I thought I was an Uncle Tom, what a relieve.

    So I’m fighting to keep Finland safe, organised, clean, free, democratic, etc… not for the sake of my children, but for fear of losing my senior architect job to an illiterate Somali.

    That makes a lot more sense, thanks for opening my eyes…

  23. Tony Garcia

    So… What exciting moment Finland is living now. I few thrilled… Maybe, just maybe, my children will have a opportunity to grow up in the same Finland that their mother did.

    Dear Finns, next election is probably the most important in your life time, and you just can’t let it pass by. Now is the time for grassroots activism. I already spoke here about the “sauna party“ idea, based on the Tea Party movement in the US. Just look at what the Tea Party is doing there, Mr. Hussein is crapping on his trousers and the Dems are using all the tricks on the book to try to stop it, but this has been an avalanche, and it can be also in Finland.

    As you know facts and common sense are multiculturalism and mass-immigration worse enemy. So use it wisely. Forget those who are against multiculturalism, they don’t need any more work, and also those who love it, they live in their illusionary world denying reality and are a hard nut to crack, you must concentrate on those who think it may be a good idea. Just show then what have happened to those country that went down this road, UK/France/Sweden for a start.

    3 weeks ago we had my mother in law and husband for a week. She have been a Keskusta voter for ages. I told her – “you must vote True Finns this election”. She replayed – “How can I vote them if my son in law is an immigrant?”. I replayed. “That’s exactly why you need to do so, the only way we can live peacefully in Finland is stopping this reckless open door immigration policy and clean the mess”. I show to them a few examples on how bad it can get plus the brawl at Linnanmaki came just in time. After a few days talking, True Finns will get 2 more votes. One can say 2 votes are nothing… Yep, but the fight is just beginning and I’m sure, if you work together, we can change this tie. I have a list of 86 Finns that I’m working hard to change their minds, it’s just about time and effort.

    What you must understand is that Finland is not multicultural yet, don’t be fooled but the left, a few Sami’s in the north and some Swedish in Vaasa doesn’t make Finland a multicultural place. Finland is a monocultural country with a few cultures hanging about, many of them completely blended into the main culture. What is also important to notice is that “diversity” is mostly on temporary permits making it a problem easily to be solved. UK and Sweden have already started to repatriate Iraqis and north of Somalia is basically OK. So it’s all about political will to get this mess sorted out, and for that we need to shout clear and louder.

    So dear Finns, don’t let this opportunity goes by. Our children’s future depends on it.

    • Enrique

      The tea party an avalanche, Tony? I don’t think so. They are too radical and that type of conservatism was enough for some USAmericans during the Bush administration.

      If you want something further to the right of the True Finns, check out Muutos 2011. Sorry Tony, we have more (5) eligible voters in our home and I can tell you that the last party they will go to are the True Finns.

      What do you mean Finland isn’t multicultural yet? It has about 150,000 immigrants never mind those that have got citizenship.

      Once you get a chance, please define what “monocultural” is. Thanks.

  24. xyz

    Tony, I don’t know but for me these statements sounds like complete nonsense. How does this fit together and why do you think you should be able to live as an Immigrant while others should not?:

    1. I told her – “you must vote True Finns this election”. She replayed – “How can I vote them if my son in law is an immigrant?”. I replayed. “That’s exactly why you need to do so, the only way we can live peacefully in Finland is stopping this reckless open door immigration policy and clean the mess”.

    2. My soon has been identified as gifted and is under assessment to see if he needs to go to special school, he’s far ahead of his class mates.
    “Well what can you expect? of a mix of Finnish/Italian/Spanish blood gave him just the perfect genetic composition”

  25. Tony Garcia

    Dear xyz, I have already answered this question some time ago, but it was before you start to follow this blog, so let me explain it to you.

    Because there is immigrants and immigrants.

    I’ve been welcomed in Finland by many hard-core nationalists, including some from this very same blog. All the immigrant critics are saying the very same, they only oppose harmful immigration to Finland, basically: bogus asylum seekers, criminals, welfare buns, Islamic terrorist, you know “diversity”. They oppose this and so do I, just like many others immigrants there.

    But there is a catch I know… There is a possibility that it’s all staged and what all they really want if give me a kick in the ass.

    However I play the lesser of two evils. The other option is sit still and watch Sharia been implemented in Finland, as it’s in the UK. It’s watch cars been burned in Espo as it’s in Malmo and Paris. Watch criminality goes sky high as it’s in UK. Watch young girls been grooming by Asian gangs as it’s in the UK. Watch welfare been sucked up by bogus asylum seekers as it’s in Ireland and UK. And most importantly watch my right to say whatever I want been made illegal as it has been advocated by this blog.

    So, the life is all about take chances, and if I have to take one, for the sake of my children, I’ll go for the Finnish nationalists.

    • Enrique

      –All the immigrant critics are saying the very same, they only oppose harmful immigration to Finland, basically: bogus asylum seekers, criminals, welfare buns, Islamic terrorist, you know “diversity”. They oppose this and so do I, just like many others immigrants there.

      Tony, don’t forget that in our democratic system one is innocent before proven guilty. Moreover, if I spoke of women the way you do of some immigrants it would not be a pretty picture. It would be unbecoming.

  26. xyz

    So you think that the majority of immigrants coming to Finland are “bogus asylum seekers, criminals, welfare buns and Islamic terrorist”?

  27. xyz

    So why do you want to support a party if the majority of immigrants are not “bogus asylum seekers, criminals, welfare buns and Islamic terrorist”?

  28. Klay_Immigrant

    Hello Tony, thank you for comments, at last someone on here who agrees with me, and even more impressive as you are an immigrant yourself. We are stating what a lot of locals think, but are afraid to say as people will instinctively throw the old they are racist or xenophobic insult at them. Please continue your political activism and hopefully people’s minds will be changed.

    Xyz, people like you and unfortunately there are quite a few seem to think that it’s impossible to be an immigrant and against multi-culturalism or mass immigration. It’s like saying a white person should not listen to rap music or a black American person must vote for Obama based on being the same race.

    Mass immigration and multi-culturalism is a ticking time bomb that will explode in a few decades. People who cannot see this have no vision and don’t look to the future. They live for today and only today not worrying what their country will be like for their grandchildren.

    Tony the reason why when I talk about immigration I try to mainly focus on ethnic minorities is that they came from 3rd world countries or have 3rd world background and that’s my main concern for various reasons. An immigrant is just someone who doesn’t have a passport of that country. Yes the majority are foreign born but not all, just like not all nationals are born in the country of their nationality. When these Somalis have children born in Finland their children will not be considered immigrants statisically speaking as they will be able to receive Finnish nationality. That’s what hides the true facts.

    As mentioned in previous posts, the requirements and criteria to gain citizenship should be much tougher. Switzerland has the highest proportional immigrant population in the EU but is by far not the most multi-cultural. One of the biggest reasons is that to gain Swiss nationality one has to live there 12 years not the 5 years in most other EU countries. Also a high proportion of immigrants are educated and add value to the country unlike refugees or assylum seekers.

    Immigrants like myself and tony are what countries need and want. Educated, intelligent, and willing to integrate into mainstream society, not leach off welfare. Also another point is that we havn’t put all our eggs in one basket by coming to a particular country. By that I mean we came by choice and if we don’t like it can easily move to another country in the EU with minimum paperwork or restrictions. Can you say Somalis fit all these categories?

    To say the Swedish speaking Finnish population makes Finland multi-cultural is laughable. They may speak different languages but their culture, religion, ethnicity and customs are very similar. That’s like saying on the turn of the 20th century 110 years ago the UK was multi-cultural based the Welsh and Scottish population mixing in with the English. Nonsense.

    Tony, yes Trevor Philips is a disgrace to mankind. If he doesn’t get his way he cries racism to UK authorities who are probably one of the most liberal when it comes to race and immigration issues.

    • Enrique

      Just a question Clay_Immigrant: how would you define multiculturalism. Could you also give us some insight on your future vision of England and Europe. How do we solve these issues that you mention. All you have been doing is saying how bad these things are but could you now tell us how you plan to “put things straight.”

    • Enrique

      –Immigrants like myself and tony are what countries need and want. Educated, intelligent, and willing to integrate into mainstream society, not leach off welfare.

      Your wife must love you. Wow, first you insult people with your demeaning view and now you raise yourself on a pedestal and do all this anonymously. It does not show much character but the face of bravado.

  29. xyz

    Because I don’t understand how you can oppose immigration if you are an immigrant yourself. What are you doing in this country then? Why do you think you should be allowed to live there while others should not?

    • Enrique

      –Because I don’t understand how you can oppose immigration if you are an immigrant yourself.

      It does not surprise me at all, xyz. Some immigrants are more conservative than some locals. We have spoken about the problem of racism among immigrants as well as against other groups. Like the locals, they too could be competing for scarce resources such as jobs and opportunities.

  30. xyz

    Immigrants like myself and tony are what countries need and want. Educated, intelligent, and willing to integrate into mainstream society, not leach off welfare.
    -Tony also agreed that the majoriy of immigrants are not “bogus asylum seekers, criminals, welfare buns and Islamic terrorist”. That’s exactly the point. I think there are plenty of immigrants in Finland who are educated, intelligent and don’t want to live from welfare but they still do not get a job.

    http://www.65degreesnorth.com/life-in-oulu/employment/cold-facts-and-hopeful-thoughts-on-employment/

  31. Klay_Immigrant

    What’s more beneficial to a country xyz, an immigrant who is illiterate, not willing to work, lives off welfare, causes crime, and doesn’t integrate or one who is the complete opposite to that? That’s why some people should be allowed to live in a foreign country while others not to answer your question.

  32. Tony Garcia

    Cheers Klay,

    There have been a few of us hanging on this blog alright. Martin and Willie just from the top of my head. We all share many things in common, all immigrants who moved to Finland, all succeeded (job, friends, social life) and all defend this country. But most importantly we all share the secret of our success, we all took the “when in Rome” road, and it did pay off. And we are not the only ones, I worked in Nokia for many years and met a score of successful immigrants. Some from US, UK, South Korea, Japan, Spain, Norway, to mention a few. As well, all took the same road and are very happy with the result. Finland can be a very good country to live in is play by its rules., try to change it and you are in hell.

    But not all immigrants are wise, that’s why not all of us are welcome. I mentioned here before a case I witnessed when in Nokia. A engineer from somewhere in Middle East, Syria I guess, who worked in my team. He took a different road, he decided to be what his Imam told him to be. He pissed just everyone off demanding appeasement after appeasement and has been humiliated and ridiculed just by everyone. Eventually he has been transferred and the whole team, Finns and immigrants alike, celebrated.

    So Klay, skills and language does play a very important role an all of this, but my experience tells me that attitude is the most important factor.

  33. Klay_Immigrant

    I’ve just read that link xyz and unfortunately, unless you are fluent in Finnish you are never going to get graduate level or higher jobs. As he was Russian I’m guessing he wasn’t fluent in English either so there is no intermediate language between him and his potential work colleagues or public which makes life very difficult.

    You can be the most intelligent and educated person in the world but unless your fluent in the host country’s language you will never go as far as you would in your home country. Common sense.

  34. xyz

    What’s more beneficial to a country xyz, an immigrant who is illiterate, not willing to work, lives off welfare, causes crime, and doesn’t integrate or one who is the complete opposite to that? That’s why some people should be allowed to live in a foreign country while others not to answer your question.

    -Yes I agree on this. However, the only problem I have is that even if you are educated and are willing to work you find it really hard to find anything. I don’t support people who just want to live from the government but for some it is the only choice because there are no opportunities. Either you try to run your own business or you move to another country.

  35. xyz

    Klay_Immigrant: The article said, that he arrived 7 years ago to pursue a PhD in Physics at Oulu University. I suppose they do not teach in Russian there?!?

    Unless you are fluent in Finnish you are never going to get graduate level or higher jobs.
    -I suppose in this field where he is educated in, Finnish skills are not a must.

    You can be the most intelligent and educated person in the world but unless your fluent in the host country’s language you will never go as far as you would in your home country. Common sense.
    -That’s not true. I know one Finn who moved to Switzerland and is doing the same job there in English as she did in Finland. Their company language is English.

  36. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique pure simple logic evades you. You admit that jobs and opportunities are scarce in Finland but think that there should be an open door immigration policy. That will cause more problems and a higher unemployment rate as more people will be vying for those same jobs increasing competition. Is that good?

  37. Klay_Immigrant

    “It´s all in Finnish so I use Google translate to understand what jobs are available and what the requirements are” from that article xyz and he has lived in Finland for 7 years. Poor effort on his part. In that time if he has not learned the language he surely will never. Have you wondered that maybe potential employers thought the same?

    As a PHD chemistry student I would know that science is a universal language and most of the time technical data and experiments need little translation. So that’s how he got by xyz.

  38. xyz

    Klay_Immigrant: Why does Finland offer Degrees in English if they have no use for English speaking graduates as it also seems that it is not that easy to learn this language?

    If Finnish is so important on the Finnish job market then I suppose that those courses are not really well coordinated or Finnish is not really considered as important to work in this field.

    It would be interesting to know how many graduates from Finnish Universities are leaving Finland after they have graduated.

    Here it says that only 13% of foreign students who are studying in Finland consider themselves on an advanced level in Finnish:
    http://www.ylioppilaslehti.fi/2008/04/18/more-finnish-language-courses/

  39. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique a multi-cultural society is one where there are significant and large visible signs of different races, religions, customs and ofcourse culture. Simple as that. I go to certain areas of London and I would not blame anyone thinking they were in the middle of Pakistan with no visible white people, numerous mosques and every food selling shop being halal. Finland hasn’t reached that stage as there aren’t significant and large visible ethnic minority populations. Remember Finland has the lowest immigrant population in the whole EU at only 2.9%. Sweden has 12.9% and that’s not including 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants.

    • Enrique

      Klay_Immigrant, ok, thank you for the definition. How are you going to solve the “problem” of multiculturalism in Europe?

  40. Tony Garcia

    Amigo Enrique, as usual it’s a pleasure to talk to you, we most don’t agree on immigration or football but I always consider you a friend. I don’t think people need to agree 100% to be friends.

    First things first, what the hell happened to our boys in South Africa? I was whishing we could face each others in the finals but I think we’ll need to wait a bit longer. That would be a memorable game, wouldn’t?

    Well I had nothing new to say so, as my dead used to say… “when we have nothing new to add just shut the fuck up”. You know in that “nice” Spanish stile…

    Sorry but this post of yours is clearly not criticizing their ideas but that people can speak their minds. As I wrote you escaped from growing up under dictatorship, but I didn’t. And we had this discussion before, you believe in freedom of speech with limits, I don’t. That’s why this post struck me really hard.

    “…if I spoke of women the way you do of some immigrants it would not be a pretty picture.”

    Well I can say the same, take many of your posts, replace the word “Finnish” by “immigrants” and you will end up in court. The problem is that in today’s world bashing Finns and Finland is cool.

    • Enrique

      –you believe in freedom of speech with limits, I don’t.

      There is a fine line between freedom of speech and insulting. You have a right to insult other people and groups in our society. This is what far-right and populist groups do with respect to immigrants. They are telling you that they are defending civil liberties but in truth they want to change and water them down. There is no way they could carry out their campaign promises against immigrants without changing the laws. I, personally, take this very seriously and understand it to be a consequence if any of these parties got into government.

      Bashing Finns and Finland is cool? I don’t think so. And then you speak that I support freedom of speech with limits. Make up your mind.

  41. Tony Garcia

    “If you want something further to the right of the True Finns, check out Muutos 2011. Sorry Tony, we have more (5) eligible voters in our home and I can tell you that the last party they will go to are the True Finns.“

    You don’t get it do you? You think what I want is see True Finns running Finland, don’t you? I’m quite sure I have said this before, but…

    What is the True Finns policy on economy? I have no idea. How about health care? Or education? Do you know? I don’t, and I don’t care.

    I’ll say it for the last time, this election is not to elect them, but enough of them to scare the shit out of the main parties. Especially Kokoomus the party that I REALLY support, but it’s betraying Finland on immigration.

  42. Tony Garcia

    “Finland has the lowest immigrant population in the whole EU at only 2.9%.”

    Very importantly, the vast majority of this tiny 2.9% are Europeans. So much for a multicultural Finland. I keep what I said Finland is a nomocultural country with some small spots of different cultures (mostly not different at all) here and there.

  43. xyz

    I think the percentage of 2.9% reflects that there are actually no opportunities in this country for immigrants or in general otherwise people would go there and stay.

    I also think that I can not really progress there even If I would learn the language. I mean this was also said here http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Marrying+into+Finland+/1135258999619

    Maybe the issue is not about racism. It is more about if there are no jobs then there are jobs and that’s why they make such a big deal about language skills: “Why should we give a job to a foreigner if there are not enough jobs available for ourselves”.

  44. Tony Garcia

    “How is Kokoomust “betraying” Finland on immigration?”

    By allowing Thors to open the door.

    “How are you going to solve the “problem” of multiculturalism in Europe?”

    Sorry Enrique let me jump on this, you asked this very same question to Osmo some time ago, how he would solve the multicultural nightmare in Canada.

    I don’t think either are trying to find any solution, I think they are warning how bad it can get.

    I personally don’t think there is solution for that, multiculturalism and “diversity” is like a evil weed, once its root get deep into the the ground it can’t be exterminated. That’s why we should prevent it to happen right now, before too late. That’s exactly what make this election the most important in our life time, at least in my opinion.

    “There is a fine line between freedom of speech and insulting”

    Here is exactly where we disagree. For me there only freedom of speech. It includes many things, one of then is the right to insult. If the price of freedom of speech is the danger of been insulted, I’ll pay, no problem.

    “And then you speak that I support freedom of speech with limits.”

    Sorry but that’s what you have done it. Criticize Finns and Finland is acceptable, immigrants it’s not.

  45. Klay_Immigrant

    Well Enrique here’s my solution to immigration.

    First of all immigration from EU nationals is impossible to control or limit unless Finland withdraws from the EU entirely which you may be suprised but I do not agree with. Finland should stay in the EU for trade reasons and other benefits. Besides EU nationals are generally educated and go to Finland with good intentions.

    All refugees and asylum seekers on the other hand should be denied to enter Finland and rejected. Generally they are not educated and do no posses skills that the Finnish population has not got. Also the majority can’t speak fluent English either so integration is made even harder by that fact. A country’s problems in Africa should not concern Finland and they have no responsibility to take any of that country’s citizens. Besides Finland can take millions of somalis but will that cure Somalia and make it a better country? Ofcourse not.

    Finland should identify what shortage of labour there exists and in which job sectors. When that infomation has been found out then Finland can recruit the correct people to fill those gaps.

    When a non EU immigrant arrives they should not be able to bring their family until they have a job and have worked there for 3 months.

    Requirements to gain a permanent residence permit is to have worked for 3 years. To gain a Finnish passport should be more or less the same requirement as in Switzerland. That is residence for 12 years. Children born to non-Finnish parents in Finland shouldn’t mean they gain an automatic right to citzenship. The parents have to get it first or for the child to have lived there for those 12 years. If 1 parent is Finnish then the children born are entitled to citizenship.

    With this immigration policy in place unemployment and crime will stay low. There will also be a very small number of immigrants who claim benefits.

    • Enrique

      –All refugees and asylum seekers on the other hand should be denied to enter Finland and rejected.

      This would not be possible because of international agreements the country has signed. Then we would have to leave the EU and our image abroad would go down the drain. We would lose markets, not be an EU member and be the scrooge of the international community. Your suggestion would have adverse economic, political and foreign policy consequences for the country. At the end of the day, it would be the Finns that would suffer.

      –Finland should identify what shortage of labor there exists and in which job sectors.

      I think that they are doing this all the time but it is more difficult than you think, especially during an economic recession. However, companies need to keep the wheels of industry moving and they cannot wait around for a small group of politicians and citizens to hinder their bottom-line. I don’t sincerely think that a “flood” of people trying to come to Finland. Taxes are high, the language is impenetrable, hostility towards foreigners is a fact, lack of services for immigrants like schools and let’s not forget the weather. These are all factors that keep future immigrants away.

      –Requirements to gain a permanent residence permit is to have worked for 3 years. To gain a Finnish passport should be more or less the same requirement as in Switzerland. That is residence for 12 years.

      We had this type of red-tape nightmare in the 1980s when foreigners were required to apply for a residence permit for EVERY job. Do you want to attract labor immigrants to Finland or do you want to keep them out? If you want to keep as many possible out, bring back the 1980s, when the job of the Aliens’ (yes, that is what it was called) Office and put as much red tape on you as they wished because they had a purpose: to keep as many immigrants out. However, you cannot do this with EU nationals. So again we’d have to leave the EU. Not a good idea.

      Do you have proof that foreigners in Finland are committing more social welfare fraud than Finns? I would like to hear what sources you are using.

      –That means the only way that crime, unemployment, and the number claiming benefits can get worse is if there was an economic downturn or a recession which obviously is not caused by immigration.

  46. Klay_Immigrant

    continued from above…

    That means the only way that crime, unemployment, and the number claiming benefits can get worse is if there was an economic downturn or a recession which obviously is not caused by immigration.

  47. Tony Garcia

    “How can you say this if your own child is even mixed?”

    There are two cultures in my family but we are a monocultural family. Let me explain what I mean with two examples.

    Brazilians have a more liberal approach towards women than the Finns, and that includes at work. It’s common for us to flirt with female work mates, it’s nothing offensive, but this goes against the Finn custom. I did it twice after start to work for Nokia. The second time I had another workmate with me who told me that this was inappropriate. I could…

    A) Multicultural approach: demand that this is part of my culture and the Finns should accept or I would complain about cultural discrimination.
    B) Monocultural approach: When in Rome…

    As you know Finns are crazy about sauna, and my wife has taken our children to it since few months old. Here in Ireland we are members of a very nice swimming centre. There is a sauna, steam room and Jacuzzi, but here kids under 16 are not allowed in either. My wife could…

    A) Multicultural approach: demand that sauna is part of her culture and we should be exempted from this rule.
    B) Monocultural approach: When in Rome…

    Have a guess, on those two occasions with approach we have chosen? If you see any member of my family in any place: work, school, restaurants, parks, hotels, shops, whatever… beside my funny accent and broken English you won’t tell we are not Irish.

    I think you can get what I mean, also notice that I always use quotation marks with the word diversity.

  48. Klay_Immigrant

    Finland is in a unique position. Multi-culturalism hasn’t happened there and the government has the opportunity to keep it that way. For countries such as the UK and France it’s too late for change as in most large cities there unfortunately ghettos exist. Do want the same to happen to Helsinki or Turku?

    Ethnic Minorities in the UK and France don’t think of themselves from that country. That’s why terms such as British-Asian or French-Morrocco exist. They relate more to their country of anchestry even though they are born, raised and have lived in a different country. Some of them havn’t even visited their anchestrial country yet have that mind set. How does that keep the country united? If you want to see this at it clearest then watch a France vs Algeria football match or an England vs India cricket match and see who they cheer and hate. You’ll get my point.

    When ethnic minority immigrants enter the UK or France where do they usually end up? They go and live in the well established communities from their homeland so integration will never happen.

    There a term called ‘White Flight’ and it’s happening all over Europe but not Finland. Hopefully that will remain that way.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

    Decades from now when racial, religious, and cultural tensions are at their highest in countries across Europe, Finland will hopefully not have to suffer the consequences of multi-culturalism and will be inundated with people wanting to live there instead. They will have the last laugh with tough immigration policies they have and will hopefully continue to implement.

    • Enrique

      You are not giving me any sensible solutions to the problem. I told you that culturally diverse societies in Europe are here to stay. You cannot change that unless you want to reestablish the ministry for racial affairs (?) run by the likes of Heinrich Himmler and Alfred Rosenberg. Turku has a suburb where over 30% are immigrants. In eastern Helsinki it reaches 10%. Finland has always been a multicultural country. The impact of foreigners has been big in areas like the economy and architecture. Even though some Finns cannot forget the Russians for the two wars, they built sturdy buildings; much of the infrastructure that Finns got like the ports were built by the Russians. In the 1870s, 15% of Helsinki’s population was foreign. So, I don’t totally agree that we have lived in a hermetically sealed world: the first Finn was an immigrant.

      Do the British that live in Spain consider themselves British-Spaniards? No. Identity is a personal matter. The fact that they have hyphenated identities in the third and fourth generation shows that something is wrong with the country. Maybe it has a low self-esteem of itself. Why would I want to embrace an identity that has low self-esteem or, worse, the excludes me?

      How do you know that racial tensions will rise in the future? Certainly with your attitude they may hit boiling point. Therefore, the key are pathways of inclusion and opportunities if you want to build good and lasting ethnic relations.

      Again, your analysis has a flaw: you think cultures remain stagnant, or in a time warp where they do not change. They do, and all the time.

  49. xyz

    There are two cultures in my family but we are a monocultural family.
    -If you have two cultures in your family then you can not be a monocultural family. I have the same background as your child has but it is impossible that your child will not get influenced by the other culture except if you do not expose your child to the other culture and keep it as a secret. Even when your child grows up then I am quite sure he will become interested into the other culture as well.

    Beside my funny accent and broken English you won’t tell we are not Irish.
    -The thing here in Dublin is that people are much more used to immigrants. My office where I am working is full of immigrants. If you go to the city center you can hear all kind of languages. Of course you don’t have the feeling that you are a foreigner.

  50. Charlie

    Honestly, I am flabergasted by the use of the USA as an example of successful integration.
    Despite a few elites being shown as examples, the USA is the industrialized country where racial tensions are at their highest, and ethnic lobbies are the most divisive.

    A few years ago, you had demonstrations of millions of illegal and illegal-supporting latinos who flaunted foreign flags in the streets of the very country they wanted to become citizens of, DEMANDING naturalization from a nation many had entered without permission. To the point that even their advocates had to ask them to tone down the manner in which they expressed their revendications.

    There is still segregation, even voluntary segregation between ethnic groups in the USA.
    For example, because of the massive influx of latino immigrants in some parts of the sunbelt, there is an exodus of black people who leave their once primarily black quarters, in search for a more homogenous environment in distinctively black hubs like metro Atlanta.

    Even when Barack Obama was named a candidate, there was dissent among the black population: not just because he was part-caucasian, but because he was born of a recent Kenyan immigrant and therefore not part of the historic African-American population of the US.

    Just as of now, there is a huge controversy over the Arizona bill allowing much more thorough ID controls to be performed on immigrants.
    While left wing organizations and latino lobbies have demonized the text, polls show that a very significant majority of non-latino citizens support it.

    • Enrique

      Charlie, you are saying that the US is a failed country when it comes to immigration. Why hasn’t it imploded. Why hasn’t there ever occurred an “all-out race war” that Klay_Immigrant is forecasting for Europe? No country or society is perfect. However, one matter that is great about USAmerica is that so many go there and still it has the ability to absorb and be resilient as a society.

    • Enrique

      Tony, AllWillBeGood offers a good question: how has Thors opened the doors to eveyone?

  51. Tony Garcia

    “This would not be possible because of international agreements the country has signed.”

    Sorry my friend, not so fast… As far as I’m know the agreements says that Finland should consider asylum applications, not accept them, and this consideration it’s at the Finnish government discretion. That’s why seekers move around EU asking asylum in different countries. They know that criteria differs from place to place.

    Also the refugee quotas can be changed, Iceland has a quota of 30 people annually.

    This mess can be sorted, it’s all about political will, and that’s why the next election is so important.

    • Enrique

      –Sorry my friend, not so fast…

      Consider them and give asylum if the person is fleeing persecution. Refugees come to Europe for real reasons. They come from failed states and are fleeing violence.

      So the “mess” you speak of is keeping out 750 quota refugees annually and denying people who are rightful refugees asylum. Hmmmm.

  52. xyz

    Tony, to be honest I think you are a Finn from a right wing political party with a false identity on this blog. I know plenty of immigrants but I have never met a single one who favours for a right wing party in the country where he wants to live in. Also your explanation about a monocultural family makes completely no sense for me. I don’t know about you but if you would be half Finnish and would be raised in Spain then wouldn’t you be interested to learn more about your Finnish background? Or would you just reject it?

  53. Tony Garcia

    This is also very important…

    http://www.migri.fi/netcomm/content.asp?article=2649

    ” person will cease to be a refugee if he or she…”

    “…evidently no longer stands in need of protection as the circumstances which caused him or her to be a refugee no longer exist.”

    As I said UK and Sweden are already send Iraqis back and north of Somalia is getting alright. So there is light at the end of the tunnel…

  54. Klay_Immigrant

    Well xyz I’m an immigrant and I’m a supporter of a right wing political party so you have encountered one now.

  55. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, AllWillBeGood offers a good question: how has Thors opened the doors to eveyone?”

    No quite dear friend, he/she asked about immigrants from EU, but Thors has no control over EU citizens, I don’t know if he/she was being sarcastic, trying to trick me or just being stupid.

    However, about the non EU immigration, as far as I know, Thors was responsible for the alien act, with facilitated enormously family unification for asylum seekers and gave them right to work. I quite remember a heated debate in the parliament where many say it’d make Finnish immigration policy one of the most lenient in EU.

    Some info I have already posted here but just in case…

    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/NEWS+ANALYSIS+Death+threats+have+become+an+everyday+phenomenon/1135253403519

    “Immigration policy in Finland has been in many respects much more lenient than in many other EU countries for some time.”

    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Helsinki+finds+housing+of+large+Somali+families+challenging/1135250831880

    “In the next few years, Finland is expected to receive thousands of Somalis, as the number of asylum-seekers has turned upwards…Almost every applicant who has been granted asylum will apply for family reunification…We have examples of families with even 10 to 15 members…Some families with more than 15 members have been seen queueing for council housing in the capital city”

    Here is an HS report about her trying to fix the problems the act brought. Problems that many, including Halla-aho said it would happened and she denied.

    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Government+prepares+changes+to+asylum+policy/1135246456478

    Anyway, I’ll go for the weekend my friend. Have a nice weekend you and your family, and watch out for the storms. Talk to you on Monday.

  56. AllWillBeGood

    Hahaha Tony you make me laugh. There is something called human rights and not everyone have the strength to respects it.
    Family reunification in Canada
    Under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and associated Regulations, a Canadian citizen or permanent resident of Canada aged at least 18 is allowed, subject to certain conditions, to sponsor specific members of their immediate family for permanent residence in Canada.

    The eligible persons are the sponsor’s spouse, common-law partner, or conjugal partner aged 16 and over, parents and grandparents, a dependent child of the sponsor, a child whom the sponsor intends to adopt, and orphaned brothers, sisters, nieces, or grandchildren under the age of 18 and who are not married or living in a common-law relationship. As an exception to the rules, if there are no eligible persons from the preceding list who may be sponsored and the sponsor has no relatives in Canada, the ‘last-remaining family member’ may be sponsored, but applications of this type are rare.

    The 2010 world cup theme song ‘wavin flag’was written and performed by a somali born canadian called K’naan
    Bigger countries will continue to be big because they think big and smaller thinking ones will continue to be small.

  57. AllWillBeGood

    Tony how lenient is our immigration pölicies?
    bigger economies are fighting illegal immigrants coming to their shores what are we fighting about?
    -the right of a family to live together, or the right of a person to marry whomever he chooses?
    How do you feel as a man or a woman if you are considered unattractive?
    Lets take a country from our so called third world countries–Morocco. if you happened to be in this country take stroll in Rabat and you will notice how unattractive we are. Our embassy is opened once a week for few hours and serving 2-4 clients, meanwhile go to the American, French, German embassies it is opened daily and the people waiting to be served is in hundreds

    People and politicians are calling our leaders for tough stance on immigration but this has been taken care off a long time ago. Again lets take third world continent Africa the one we dislike, and focus on West Africa.It has 15 countries and population of 300 million and one Finnish embassy in Nigeria serving them, Sweden has 8 embassies may be more and USA has 15 and may be more. On the continent we have 13 missions, Sweden have 29 missions and USA 43 missions.

  58. Klay_Immigrant

    AllWillBeGood A country of nearly 310 million is always going to have more embassies and participate in more missions around the World than a country of just over 5 million. That argument proves nothing.

    For every K’naan there will be tens of thousands of fellow Somali refugees who become criminals or sit on their lazy ass claiming welfare.

    • Enrique

      –For every K’naan there will be tens of thousands of fellow Somali refugees who become criminals or sit on their lazy ass claiming welfare.

      These kinds of statments were prevelant in the United States in the 1950s when whites spoke of blacks. Shame on you Klay_Immigrant. You claim to be an “educated” man but in reality you have learned very little. You haven’t even reached day-car level with those types of claims. Furthermore, if your employer would find out, you would end up in an unemployment line.

  59. Charlie

    What human rights, AllWillBeGood?

    Do you know that Morocco is one of the nations who signed the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam, a text that contradicts the Universal Declaration of Human Rights on several key points, including homicide and women’s rights?

    Why should I force myself to fund the well being and integration of foreign citizens according to “human rights”, when governments of countries exporting hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of these immigrants, actually work to promote values that contradict them?

    You think France is pleased that its embassies in North African countries are crowded mith migrants?
    You think it’s a priviledge and the sign of a radiating culture? It’s a sign of intellectual failure and misery, that’s all.

    Bills of human rights were published to stimulate reform in unstable and oppressive countries.
    Nowadays they are used by immigrants to force the hand of rich contries and exploit their so-called moral standing.
    Any illegal migrant that gets caught, the first thing he does, is to claim asylum. It’s become a normal procedure, regardless of his situation.

    In my country, there are a number of associations that get public funding, despite the fact that they don’t just help legit immigrants, they will help illegals with no legit asylum claim as well.

    When our former president visited Algeria a few years ago, there were thousands of youths lined up in the streets, chanting in unison “We want visas, we want visas!”. What do you want to do with people like that?

    Let’s just end this asylum rights madness.
    Whatever happens to asylum seekers, happens.
    Developed countries aren’t the world police, as third world countries love to say.
    They are also not the world’s social workers.

  60. Tony Garcia

    Dear AllWillBeGood, You have brought up 4 topics and I’ll try to briefly address each one of them, please bear with me…

    1. laugh: I’m glad I made you laugh, in today’s world with the sword of Islamic terrorism hanging on top of our heads, brought by open door immigration and multiculturalism, it’s very good that one can have a laugh when talking about such serous subject.

    2. Yooman Rites: oh… I was wondering when someone would bring this up… Well it’s indeed something to be desired, if you are a criminal, a bogus asylum seeker or a Islamic terrorist. Our beloved Yurpeen Court of Yooman Rites has been working very hard to protect those people at the expense of the law binding citizen.

    I had a moment of hope when Cameron got elected, I thought he’d implement the Conservative Party manifesto scraping the HR act. Especially after the ECHR ruled that UK must pay the dole to the families of terrorists. You ask asylum in the UK, blow the shit out of innocent people, get your 7 virgins and the British tax payer will look after your family. Bin laden himself wouldn’t do a better job advertising jihad.

    And when we think that it couldn’t get any more ludicrous we have Iran elected to the UN Commission on the Status of Women. un-freaking-believable…

    The Telegraph printed an excellent editorial arguing why and what UK should do to get rid of ECHR. With Italy pissed off with them as well it could be a domino effect, but what can you expect from a RINO? So he broke this along with many other promises. However at the end of last year Italy made me proud of caring Italian blood in my veins with the “Sentenza N.311”, telling the ECHR to take a hike. I celebrated it with a nice glass of Chianti.

    3. Canada: Apparently Canada is quite a nice place to live if you have a dark skin or a wicked religion. For a white Christian family I would think twice.

    I advice anyone who wonder about Multiculturalism in Canada to read Ujjal Dosanjh, Salim Mansur or Dr. Mahfooz Kanwar. You may start to have a quite different opinion about it.

    Another good reading is Mark Steyn, a Canadian journalist that I respect and admire very much.

    4. Country…Think… Big: That’s a nice left-wing rhetoric with, among many others, are based on feelings rather than rational thought and facts. I, as a conservative, therefore someone who prefer to keep my feet on the ground and see reality for what it is, would, if you don’t mind, change it slightly…

    Safe countries will continue to be safe because they think safe.

    Nevertheless, thanks AllWillBeGood for your comments, I much appreciated it.

    • Enrique

      –Islamic terrorism hanging on top of our heads, brought by open door immigration and multiculturalism,

      Do you actually stand by this statement? Bush left the presidency in 2008 and all that nonesense about “the war on terror/evil.” I think, my friend, you have been reading too many far-right editorials.

      You have not answered my question I asked you a long while back: If Europe has in the present tense ethnic minorities, what should we do with them? Kick out those we don’t want or accept that as a fact of societal life. You are not giving me any solutions. You are only pointing out how one group (the whole group!) is threatening us and that we should as a result become more xenophobic.

  61. xyz

    Guys, it’s Saturday evening…you should go out and have some fun.

    Here an example why more immigrants does not necessarily mean that the quality of life needs to go down:

    In Eastern Germany (Sachsen: 20% unemployment – 2% immigrants) there are quite less foreigners compared to Western Germany (Baden-Württemberg: 5% unemployment – 12% immigrants).

    Surprisingly, the right wing parties are only strong in Eastern Germany. Here some results of elections from Konstanz (as you can see no right wing party):
    http://www.wahlumfrage.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Landtag-Baden_Wuerttemberg_Juni_2009_Sonntagsfrage.png

    Some other facts about Konstanz:
    Unemployment rate for young people under 24 is 1.9% (Finland over 20%)

    And here you can see how they make fun in TV about right wing parties (you need to understand German):

    I think for some reasons integration works better in Germany than in Finland.

    • Enrique

      xyz, you are absolutely right! Thank you for pointing that out. It would be interesting to hear more of Germany’s experiences with immigration. What are some of the biggest immigrant issues debated today in Germany?

  62. Charlie

    Germany?
    Turks are grossly overrepresented in German crime stats, especially for repeat and violent offenders.
    Ex-Yugoslavians have also been cause for concern.

    There are multiple cases of local Muslim lobbies asking for women-only timeslots in public buildings.
    Police forces report escalating provocations by migrant youths as well.

    The reason why you don’t hear about is as much, is that these problems are slightly more recent in Germany.
    Also, because Germany had such an active role in WWII, the country is extremely sensitive when it comes to any criticism that might be hurtful to people of foreign origins, which has helped to create a consensus for barring the far right from mass media. As often, left wingers thrive on guilt.

    AllWillBeGood, your stats are pointless because they only reflect a regional situation.
    Migrants tend to settle in the most favorable economic centers.

    For example, in France, if you take the stats of Ile-de-France (region comprising Paris and its suburbs), the umemployment rate is below the national average. However in Seine-St-Denis, the most third world-infused department within the Ile-de-France region, the stats are very poor and actually bring Ile-de-France’s average down.

    The most honest question to ask is not “Where does it look all rosey?”
    In the end, it always comes down to “Who costs what?” and “Who stabs who?”

    If immigrants are so great for Baden-Württemberg, why then did that very lander’s government try to introduce special tests for Muslim migrants to ensure they understood the German customs of tolerance towards homosexuals and women in 2006?
    Just a coincidence that it happened specifically in your favorite region where immigrants bring nothing but prosperity and peace, I guess.

    It must all have been an unsubstantiated ploy by evil German racists to ostracize gentle Muslim do-gooders.

  63. Charlie

    My apologies, I thought AllWillBeGood posted the remarks about Germany, when in fact it was XYZ.
    So that’s who I was responding to, sorry.

  64. Tony Garcia

    And once we want to talk about Germany…

    This is an interesting article, racist and Islamophocic of course…

    http://www.thelocal.de/society/20100606-27673.html

    “A study that shows boys growing up in religious Muslim families are more likely to be violent…The results showed that Muslim boys from immigrant families were more than twice as likely to agree with macho statements than boys from Christian immigrant families. The rate was highest among those considered as very religious, Pfeiffer said. They were also more likely to be using violent computer games and have criminal friends.”

  65. Tony Garcia

    Thank you amigo Enrique, 3 days since I came back to this blog and already have been enlightened twice.

    First, what drives me is just fear of loosing my job to an illiterate Somali. Now that Islamic terrorism is a myth, just another right-wing fabrication. Muslims just want to hold our hands and sing Kumbaya…

    I feel save already, thanks…

    • Enrique

      Tony, seriously, how can an illetrate person take you job? Now you are exaggerating.

      So you think defending our constitution and due process of law is “Kumbaya?” That was the same type of discourse they used in Latin America when our countries were run by military juntas. Remember how fear was an important factor in killing the opposition’s arguments? Fear, threat they are all scare tactics used by the far right and the military that wants to wage war.

  66. xyz

    Tony, in your article it says:
    “there was not a direct link between Islamic belief and violence – but an indirect one”

    So what is the indirect link? In your article it says:
    “Exclusion starts already when the Muslim child is not invited to a birthday party,”

    Same problem as in Finland. If you exclude people from social life then there is a good chance that they will become violent.

    Here also an article why actually many Muslims in Iran are fed up with a religious government:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/25/eveningnews/main669223.shtml

  67. xyz

    First, what drives me is just fear of loosing my job to an illiterate Somali.
    -What kind of job do you have if you fear that you lose your job to an illiterate Somali? 🙂

  68. Klay_Immigrant

    Xyz your West and East Germany comparison is completely flawed. The unemployment stats have nothing to do with immigration in those regions. The reason why they differ so much is called communism. Why do think they built the Berlin Wall? To keep East Germans from escaping to West Germany. Unfortunately East Germany is still feeling the effects of communism even after 20 years. There has been hundreds of millions in investment to bring East Germany up to West German standards.

    So that explains the difference in the unemployment stats of the 2 regions and as an after effect obviously much less immigrants will go to a region which has inferior infrastructure and prospects. Immigrants did not make West Germany rich compared to the East. It was democracy vs communism.

  69. JusticeDemon

    Just under one in five UK Nobel Prize winners have been immigrants, most of whom entered the UK as refugees.

    The only lawful way to deny entry to asylum seekers is by withdrawing from the 1951 Geneva Refugee Convention. However, this forms part of an integrated human rights acquis that is common to all of the Member States of the European Union and the Council of Europe, and is accordingly applied as a background judicial framework by the European Court of Human Rights and by the European Court of Justice. It is far from clear that withdrawal from the Geneva Refugee Convention is even legally possible while a State remains within the European Union and the Council of Europe. For example ECHR interprets the key principle of non refoulement as a direct consequence of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

    Crime statistics are meaningless unless they are properly weighted at least by gender, age and socio-economic status. To argue otherwise is to accept the view that Finnish men are absolutely unfit to hold senior positions in the Finnish banking and financial sector, because 100 per cent of serious white collar offences in this industry are committed by Finnish men. Similarly statistics from the Finnish High Court of Impeachment indicate that 100 per cent of offences in office committed by government ministers have been committed by Finnish citizens. This clearly indicates that Finnish citizens are unsuitable to serve as government ministers. Correspondingly, 100 per cent of visa overstayers are foreigners, so obviously visas should only be issued to Finnish citizens and Finland should only conclude visa exemption arrangements with itself.

  70. xyz

    Xyz your West and East Germany comparison is completely flawed.
    -No it’s not. I wanted to show you the attitude of people in regions where Germany has high unemployment (structural weak regions) and regions where Germany has low unemployment. The first thing if economy doesn’t perform good are blaming the immigrants.

    You can also adapt this to Finland. Most of the foreigners are living in the capital region because there are the jobs. I was wondering how the attitude in the capital region towards immigrants is compared to structural weak regions in the north of Finland with 20% unemployment or more. I am quite sure that right wing parties are getting most of their votes from those structural weak areas in Finland.

    However, since there are anyway as good as no immigrants in those structural weak areas, voting for right wing will not have any positive outcome for them since it will not increase the number of jobs…just maybe a stable or decrease amount of immigrants. (Also consider that many new immigrants do not speak fluent Finnish so they are anyway not able to compete with you on the job market since Finnish speakers are always preferred).

  71. Tiwaz

    -“However, since there are anyway as good as no immigrants in those structural weak areas, voting for right wing will not have any positive outcome for them since it will not increase the number of jobs…just maybe a stable or decrease amount of immigrants. (Also consider that many new immigrants do not speak fluent Finnish so they are anyway not able to compete with you on the job market since Finnish speakers are always preferred).”

    You forget that immigrants still rack up way higher unemployment figures than Finns. Despite being concentrated in the most employment rich area.

    That is pet issue of Enrique here.

    He just does not have intellectual honesty to say that immigrants themselves are to blame, because they have no useful skills to contribute.

    Employment is not charity. You have to be able to do your job as soon as possible profitably, or you are useless.

    Not speaking local language, not being able to behave properly… All this makes immigrants rank up low on the list.

    And by permitting the ghetto effect of all immigrants trying to get into one small area, we are not helping the integration process. If immigrants can live their life without integrating, they will. This is proven by ethnical ghettoes everywhere where multiculturalism has managed to spread it’s rot.

    By the way, regarding those English language education options in Finnish universities. Perhaps we Finns are naive enough to think that someone going to university has half a brain to figure out that they should learn the local language on the SIDE of earning their graduate papers.

    What this blog is rich with is attempt to absolve immigrants from responsibility of their own failures.

    Never you or Enrique or rest admit that immigrants are fucking up their own life with their own decisions. It would require admitting that immigrants have responsibility for the consequences of their own actions! And we can’t have that.

    It is easier to blame Finns. After all, that is politically correct and cosher racism!

    • Enrique

      –What this blog is rich with is attempt to absolve immigrants from responsibility of their own failures.

      Certainly both sides of the issue have been debated. However, there is no “pro” for racism, which is a punishable crime in out society. Or are you now telling us that you can speak in favor of racism and that you have the right to bash immigrants because you are “exercising your free speech?” Give me a break!

      In an honest debate you have to take those loaded labels and insults from the discourse table. If you look at your own text you will notice that they are peppered everywhere. That is the first step you should take and maybe then you will start to debate the matter in a civil way.

      That advice is also good in your personal life and relationships with your family and friends. You cannot go around DEMANDING respect by insulting others.

    • Enrique

      Tiwaz, here is an excellent example of how you use loaded arguments: –Never you or Enrique or rest admit that immigrants are fucking up their own life with their own decisions.

      In the first place, the term “fucking” puts you in a ruffian debate stutus of your own. Furthermore, I disagree totally: you fear immigration because they can outwork, outdo, and run right over you because you cannot keep up with some of them. Your views of immigration belongs in the xenophobic right. You forget that most of the immigrants that move to Finland are more conservative and hard-working than you. It is not the picture that you or ultra-nationalistic parties in Finland paint. Add to this as a way to lure votes and you are talking about chicanery on an unprecedented level.

  72. Tiwaz

    -“Certainly both sides of the issue have been debated.”

    No they have not been. You have never even once criticized immigrants for their failure to integrate.
    You have never paid anything but passing mention to problems caused by multiculturalism. You have done nothing but bash Finns and Finland.

    -“However, there is no “pro and con” for racism, which is a punishable crime in out society. Or are you now telling us that you can speak in favor of racism and that you have the right to bash immigrants?”

    Here you go again, you play “racism” card. Where is racism in telling immigrant that if they expect to find job in Finland without being able to interact with Finns according to Finnish customs and using Finnish language they are being stupid?

    There is no racism there, it is statement of simple fact. There are very few jobs out there where interaction with Finns is not essential, and in interaction with Finns in Finland is to understand Finnish language and culture.

    You use racism as cheap cop out to avoid need to admit failures of immigrants.

    -“In an honest debate you have to take those labels and insults away. If you look at your own text you will notice that they are peppered everywhere. That is the first step you should take and maybe then you will start to debate the matter in a civil way. ”

    Honest debate requires you to support your claims. This far in your blog we have nothing of any substance from you.

    You preach how good multiculturalism is.
    But when confronted with facts of it’s problems, you do not offer solutions to them. You just pretend those issues do not exist.

    You do not debate Enrique, that is your problem. You make statement and when your statement is shown false, you pretend that it was not and repeat it again and again.

    That is not debate, it is propaganda.

    Problem here is less with me not being able to debate, but you being unwilling to debate as you apparently know that you are in untenable position with your multiculturalism.

    Maybe I would insult you, as you like to say, less if you actually managed to put up debate first.

  73. xyz

    You forget that immigrants still rack up way higher unemployment figures than Finns. Despite being concentrated in the most employment rich area.
    -Take yourself…would you trust a Finn or an immigrant more? So whom would you give the job?

    Immigrants themselves are to blame, because they have no useful skills to contribute.
    -Yes, we are all stupid. Was always wondering why we didn’t learn Finnish as a second language in school instead of English 🙂

    Employment is not charity. You have to be able to do your job as soon as possible profitably, or you are useless.
    -You are really wise. I thought I am working in a charity organization here in Ireland 🙂

    Perhaps we Finns are naive enough to think that someone going to university has half a brain to figure out that they should learn the local language on the SIDE of earning their graduate papers.
    -http://www.ylioppilaslehti.fi/2008/04/18/more-finnish-language-courses/

    What this blog is rich with is attempt to absolve immigrants from responsibility of their own failures.
    -And what are these failures? That we are not able to speak fluent Finnish after 1 month? That we don’t have Finnish work experience? Sorry, but when I worked in Finland, I didn’t see that many differences compared to the other countries I have worked in. Those differences are just in your brain.

  74. Tony Garcia

    Amigo Enrique, I hope you have had a good weekend. Here, on Saturday we had, probably, the last barbeque of the season.

    Off course I’m exaggerating, your notion that for us, immigrants, it’s all about fear of competition is not only ludicrous but highly offensive. You know well how things are from where we come from, so let me tell something, the money my family has invested in my education most immigrants in Finland can only dream about it. So… competition? Bring it on baby…

    The problem with you guys is that you insist to live in denial. For you there isn’t such thing as Islamic terrorism, it’s all a misunderstand from the Bush era. The right defeated communism, and only the right can defeat Islamic terrorism, how can you fight an enemy if you deny its very own existence?

    I’m an engineer and you a journalist, so it’d be ridiculous to engage in an argument about history with you, however do I need to remind you that wasn’t peace activists who liberated Auschwitz? Evil only understand one language, my friend…

    Let me quote Coulter…

    “When there is a one-hundred percent chance that the next terrorist attack will be made by a Muslim extremist, it’s no longer a profile, it’s a description of the suspect.”

    • Enrique

      –The right defeated communism, and only the right can defeat Islamic terrorism, how can you fight an enemy if you deny its very own existence?

      OK Tony, good question. Here is a question: “What does defeating Islamic terrorism mean?” Let me put it in simpler terms: What will the enemy you speak of look like and act like after we have been “victorious?”

    • Enrique

      –The problem with you guys is that you insist to live in denial. For you there isn’t such thing as Islamic terrorism, it’s all a misunderstand from the Bush era.

      Living in denial? Islamic terrorism does not exist? I don’t think any sensible person would think like that. Don’t you think you are exaggerating your case that Islam is a threat to our society? If it is, have you asked why? Where do you think this type of hatred comes from? Are we the good guys and all the members of a group terrorists and potential terrorists?

      You are an architect/engineer that ensures the integrity of structures. There is also a way to look at the integrity of arguments and how well the withstand the elements like fact or hearsay. One piece of hearsay, or outright intentional misinformation/propaganda, that we rarely speak of these days are thos weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq. Weren’t there also connections between Bin Laden and Saddam? I could go on but I’ll stop here.

  75. Tiwaz

    -“Take yourself…would you trust a Finn or an immigrant more? So whom would you give the job?”

    Out of equal standing, Finn for reliability. Never said I wouldn’t.

    But if immigrant is integrated and skilled, I could just as well hire him.

    -“Yes, we are all stupid. Was always wondering why we didn’t learn Finnish as a second language in school instead of English”

    If you as child had decided to move to Finland, it would indeed be stupid of you.
    If you decided to move in later, it is still stupid of you not to put every effort to learning local way of interacting.

    -“You are really wise. I thought I am working in a charity organization here in Ireland ”

    And behold! In Ireland they spoketh English! Language you speak too. So you CAN interact with local language. What is difference to you in Ireland and Finland?

    -“And what are these failures? That we are not able to speak fluent Finnish after 1 month? That we don’t have Finnish work experience? Sorry, but when I worked in Finland, I didn’t see that many differences compared to the other countries I have worked in. Those differences are just in your brain.”

    Failure to learn Finnish, indeed. 1 month, 1 year, 1 lifetime. Irrelevant to Finns and Finland. It is, afterall, YOUR duty to make you employable. Not duty of Finland.

    I recall you having left precisely because you did not get a job in Finland. So now you actually got a job?

    To put it simply, if you got job without Finnish, you were lucky. Sometimes you are lucky, most of the time people aren’t.

  76. xyz

    If you decided to move in later, it is still stupid of you not to put every effort to learning local way of interacting.
    -Yes you are right. It was a stupid idea to move to Finland and also to invest my time and money in 2 Finnish courses. I still regret it.

    I recall you having left precisely because you did not get a job in Finland. So now you actually got a job?
    -Yup, now I got a job and every week a few emails from recruiters who are interested in my CV for new jobs.

  77. Tony Garcia

    “What does defeating Islamic terrorism mean?”

    It means that you and I would be able to take a plane from Amsterdam to Detroit on Christmas day without fear that a Muslim will blow it to peaces.

    “What will the enemy you speak of look like and act like after we have been “victorious?””

    I don’t care, as long as they are there and we are here.

    “Don’t you think you are exaggerating your case that Islam is a threat to our society?”

    Am I? Really? You know we heard this before. First against Nazism, you probably know Naville’s statement about Hitler in 1938 “a man who could be relied upon when he had given his word”. The “warmongers” were just exaggerating about the threat of Nazism…

    Then came the communism, how about Carter’s “inordinate fear of communism” remarks? Today, my friend, you and I can freely talk here because Regan took care of the problem.

    Now “Islam is a religion with could be relied upon” and it’s all about an “inordinate fear of Islam”. The history always repeats itself…

    • Enrique

      –Then came the communism, how about Carter’s “inordinate fear of communism” remarks? Today, my friend, you and I can freely talk here because Regan took care of the problem.

      I would not give that much credit to Reagan. For one, when a system defeats its own values, the only end is a huge implosion like what happened to the Soviet Union. I covered the Gorbachev coup in August 1991 and consider myself fortunate to have been there seeing one of the biggest changes in the last century. It is the same thing that can happen to us if we throw away our values and laws in order to “fight against the Islamic terrorists.” Bin Laden succeeded at provoking the United States with 9/11 and see the consequences. You cannot beat anyone militarily you have to find a political solution to go with it.

  78. Tony Garcia

    And once you want to talk about Iraq, let me ask you a question, what do you think influenced Gadhafi to dismantle his WMD program? Do you think Mohammed himself came to him in dream and taught him the true peaceful essence of Islam?

    • Enrique

      –Do you think Mohammed himself came to him in dream and taught him the true peaceful essence of Islam?

      No, pragmatism: petro dollars and the chance to stay in power.

  79. Tony Garcia

    “No, common pragmatism: petro dollars and the chance to stay in power.”

    There you go… No WMD but one dictator hanged and another decided to take it ease. No too bad…

  80. JusticeDemon

    It might be helpful to draw a distinction between Islamic and Islamist.

    A bit of historical context might help as well. The narrative goes back to at least the tenth century.

    • Enrique

      Good point JusticeDemon. I think that we always end up in thin ice when we claim EVERYONE instead of SOME in a group.

  81. Klay_Immigrant

    I unlike most if not all of you on here have lived in an Islamic country (Saudi Arabia) so I know the culture of Muslims and their society better than most. One of the basic principles is to not tolerate any other religion or criticism against Islam and that’s not only in their own country or region where they are the majority but all over the world.

    Look what happened in Denmark with that cartoon of Prophet Mohammad, it caused worldwide rioting and death threats. In the Netherlands, the director Theo Van Gogh (great-grand nephew of Vincent Van Gogh) worked with Somali-born writer Ayaan Hirsi Ali to produce the film Submission, which was critical of the treatment of women in Islam. His reward was to be assassinated by Mohammed Bouyeri, a Dutch-Moroccan Muslim. But then ofcourse if politicans condem this then the trump card racist insult is thrown and leftists say it’s an isolated case.

    You don’t see churches in the Middle East. The West do not complain about that. Yet when muslims come to Europe they for example in the UK demand sharia law to be introduced in British Law.

    All that I’m asking is for immigrants and ethnic minorities for which I am one is to behave and act the same way when they enter the West as Westerners do when they come to Muslim countries. That is to respect the local culture and customs and not complain when it’s different and want change.

  82. Klay_Immigrant

    If you think these acts of violence are only for the bottom end criminals then look no further than the people in charge of Mosques in Western countries who have more influence and power amongst muslims than any politican can dream of.

    Two examples are Imam Fawaz of the as-Sunnah Mosque in The Hague who gave a sermon several weeks before the murder in which he called Theo van Gogh “a ‘criminal bastard’ and prayed for the filmmaker to be afflicted with an incurable disease.

    Another example is Iman Abu Hamza al-Masri of north London, the one with the hook as a hand. He preached hatred against the West yet lived in a 6-bedroom million dollar house paid for by the tax payer while receiving huge amounts of welfare due to the numerous children he has. Nice way to pay back that generousity.

  83. Klay_Immigrant

    You want figures and sources Enrique, here you go.

    The TaxPayers’ Alliance estimates father-of-eight Hamza has so far cost Britain £2.75 million in welfare payments, council housing, NHS and prison bills, trials and legal appeals.

  84. JusticeDemon

    And equal and opposite loonies in the American Taleban claim that Hurricane Katrina was Divine retribution for homosexuality.

    Obviously this conclusively proves that the Ayatollahs hit the nail on the head describing the US as the Great Shatan, and the remark about an axis of evil made by a senior US politician was a scientifically objective and accurate assessment.

    Demonising a chosen collective opponent and focusing on its worst instances is a standard practice of demagogues, but it is supremely foolish to buy into this nonsense.

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4J4M6BXDLs?fs=1&hl=en_US&rel=0]

  85. Tony Garcia

    Excellent point. A few more generalizations that need be avoided…

    – Finland discriminate against immigrants.

    – Finnish people are racist.

    – Immigrants do well.

    – Immigrants will benefit the society.

    – Muslims want to integrate.

    – Muslims are not violent.

    – Refugees will not bring their war with them.

    – High unemployment among Somalis is Finland’s fault.

    – Multiculturalism will benefit all groups in the society.

    – Multiculturalism can make any country a better place.

    And very importantly…

    – Left-wingers are good.

    – Right-wingers are evil.

    • Enrique

      Tony, who has made such generalizations? Let’s take a look at them one by one.

      – Finland discriminate against immigrants.

      I don’t agree that we are stating that ALL Finns discriminate. Some, however, do. I am very careful about this. If it is a problem, then we have to address it.

      – Finnish people are racist.

      Again you are suggesting that the blog states that ALL Finns are racist. Dead wrong. See the word “some” used the word Finn.

      – Immigrants do well.

      If unemployment is three- to four-times higher than the natural average, how can the immigrant community be doing well? Never said this. Some immigrant, yes.

      – Immigrants will benefit the society.

      Immigration is in my opinion a positive force in society. That’s the way I see it. It become a negative force when there discrimination from all sides and the lack of tools to belong to society are not there. Full assimilation isn’t possible unless the receiving culture accepts the minority. Moreover, see what happened to the Amerindians when their culture was ripped off and confined in reservations. You call that becoming an equal member of society?

      – Muslims want to integrate.

      Certainly some do. But on whose terms. If our society PERMITS diversity, what is your qualm?

      – Muslims are not violent.

      Certainly some are like some are in our society. In all groups you find deviants. And, you have to add this in a historical context as well. Why do some groups have issues with us?

      – Refugees will not bring their war with them.

      Refugees like immigrants bring their prejudices and culture with them. That is why the receiving country must show them that they don’t have to live with that type of hate where they are.

      – High unemployment among Somalis is Finland’s fault.

      If you look at some studies, they will list a number of variables like outright discrimination.

      – Multiculturalism will benefit all groups in the society.

      Can you tell me a better system to incorporate ALL groups into society equally? I think this is the goal.

      – Multiculturalism can make any country a better place.

      If we are fair, the criticism against multiculturalism has been that it does not integrate groups in society. Please suggest another model that you think could work better. For me, multiculturalism means accepting and respecting diversity in society. We can be different but we are from the same community.

      And very importantly…

      – Left-wingers are good.

      I thought that term went out of the window after the fall of the Soviet Union?

      – Right-wingers are evil.

      That is an absurd statement.

  86. xyz

    You still don’t get it. Nobody said that all Finns are racist nor that it is all Finlands fault. Both sides have to work on it and you have to see individuals not groups.

    • Enrique

      Well said, xyz. Living together and benefiting from each other is a two-way street.

  87. Tony Garcia

    “Well said, xyz. Living together and benefiting from each other is a two-way street.”

    Really? Care to do me a favor? Could you please show me one post from this blog, at least from the last 2 years, time that I have been following it, with has a single word of criticism toward immigrants? Only one post please. Thanks.

    • Enrique

      I have said it before that integration is a two-way street. However, do you want, as you would put it, post a “Kumbaya” post about how everything is honky-dory in Finland for some immigrants? If you want to write such an article, I would be happy to post it.

  88. xyz

    You just posted something a few minutes ago:

    “Excellent point. A few more generalizations that need be avoided…
    – Immigrants do well.
    – Immigrants will benefit the society.
    – Muslims want to integrate.
    – Muslims are not violent.
    – Refugees will not bring their war with them.”

  89. Tony Garcia

    “I thought that term went out of the window after the fall of the Soviet Union?

    So would any reasonable person, my friend. No only that, also the outcome of places like North Korea and Cuba are good examples about how left-wing policies just don’t work. Even after one of the biggest leftist experiments in western Europe, collapsed this year, last week Gregor Gall wrote an editorial for the Guardian calling for more activists like Jimmy Reid.

    So I wish leftism were something from the past, my friend, but as Prager says “be on the left means never have to say sorry.”

    • Enrique

      –No only that, also the outcome of places like North Korea and Cuba are good examples about how left-wing policies just don’t work.

      Do you think capitalism does a better job? Take a look at our economy, social inequality and the environment. Sorry, my friend, the sky is not the limit.

  90. xyz

    Right wing Germany also didn’t survive very long in the 40s. So who is left to vote for? We could maybe vote for a Buddha Party where we all live in harmony together 🙂

  91. JusticeDemon

    So the governments of the Nordic countries since 1945 have not been predominantly leftist?

    We can only assume that the Scandinavian welfare state model is either an invention of the political right or a law of nature that the rightist governments of Sweden and Finland were unable to resist.

  92. Tony Garcia

    All of which are desperate trying to import hordes of Africans, Asians and Middle-Esters to maintain their massively expensive welfare state and unsustainable level of entitlements.

  93. Tony Garcia

    “I have said it before that integration is a two-way street”

    Where, beside the comment sections? I really would like to see it.

    And I never said everything is “honky-dory”, I just said It’s not Finland or Finns fault.

  94. Klay_Immigrant

    If someone was reading the articles and most posts on this blog about Finland they would assume that Finland was a backwards 3rd World developing country who’s people would abuse anyone verbally on the street who was different looking or a foreigner. That person wouldn’t think in reality Finland has one of the highest quality of life in the world and in recent years has topped international rankings for education, literacy and honesty. These are not opinions but are facts. Achieving this even by entering industrialisation relatively late compared to most of it’s European counterparts makes what Finland has accomplished more remarkable.

    It’s a shame Enrique and co. only view Finland from a bad point of view. If that’s not the case then you guys certainly dont show it. A more balanced outlook is needed. No country is perfect but Finland is certainly more perfect than most.

    This isn’t some sort of nationalistic patriotic outcry as I have no connection to Finland but I’m not a biased man and do not view life through rose tinted glasses. The facts speak for themselves, and I for one hope Finland continues to restrict multi-culturalism to a minimum in order to keep it’s character and heritage. You know when for example in the UK the national dish is chicken tikka massala curry then something terrible has happened.

    • Enrique

      Klay_Immigrant, what is your aim in these posts if you have never been in Finland? To protect it from multiculturalism? To be frank, I don’t think you have an idea what “multiculturalism” is or how people from diverse backgrounds can forge good ethnic relations and benefit society in that way. Of course societies change! Or do they stay in some time warp? For you, the view that society is “monocultural” and must be maintained this way are the very seeds that led to mass war and incomprehension in Europe in the last century. It is the reason why some Europeans still have big hangups with accepting other groups. In a democratic society matters are debated. It is not a black-and-white issue but one matter is for certain: It isn’t your property nor can you dictate the terms of the debate and especially ANONYMOUSLY. If you feel that way about other cultures, why don’t you have the guts to do so with your name? Your views are full of bravado and contempt for other people. I wouldn’t be surprised if you were a member of the BNP. But here is some good advice: Don’t lose sleep over cultural diversity because it is here to stay. You cannot do anything about it. Learn to deal with it or move to the Yukon. By the way, they eat tikka massala there as well.

  95. Klay_Immigrant

    I’ve been to Finland many times. It’s a great country especially when compared to England. Other countries may be more attractive to tourists but to live and work in those places is another situation. My Ex-girl friend was Finnish who I met at Uni and was with for nearly 3 years. Met her family in Tampere.

  96. Klay_Immigrant

    I’ve also been to nearly every country in Europe apart from the Balkans and some countries in the far East such as Belarus. Lived in 5 countries in Europe, 7 in total permanently for over a year and I’m only 26. So I have a good knowledge and experience to make comparisons between societies and cultures.

    • Enrique

      –I’ve also been to nearly every country in Europe apart from the Balkans and some countries in the far East such as Belarus.

      If you have travelled in many countries why have you become more reticent towards other cultures? You have the intellectual tools to decipher all this in an intelligent fashion. I don’t get it.

  97. Klay_Immigrant

    It’s a variation of an indian dish. It’s like buying a German car and putting british wheels on it and then saying it’s a British Car.

  98. JusticeDemon

    Klay_Immigrant: August 17, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    It’s a variation of an indian dish. It’s like buying a German car and putting british wheels on it and then saying it’s a British Car.

    By that reasoning everything in Finland is a variation of something foreign, so there is nothing at all that is genuinely Finnish. This includes the Finnish language, and even the Finnish sauna is a variant on foreign sweat lodges.

  99. JusticeDemon

    Ricky, you are ignoring the basic mechanism of prejudice. Travel only broadens the unprejudiced mind.

    Some of the worst racists in history were widely travelled and spent most of their lives outside of their countries of origin.

    A mind that is conditioned by prejudice will organise experiences and perceptions to reinforce that prejudice.

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