Hymy: Maahanmuuttoministeri Thors: ”Pohjois-Karjala tarvitsee maahanmuuttajia!”

by , under All categories, Enrique

Comment: Here is an interesting story in Hymy magazine where minister of European and migration affairs, Astrid Thors, encourages the region of Pohjois-Karjala to attract immigration. Her statement is very positive: “Immigrants bring skills, new thoughts and ideas.”

As mentioned many times, the debate in Finland on immigrants and immigration is divided by two camps: those who see it as a threat or an opportunity. There are countless examples in history that show how immigration has been the latter.

The story is significant considering Pohjois-Karjala and especially the city of Joensuu have had the dubious honor of being the most racist place in the country.

Do you agree?

____________

Maahanmuuttoministeri Astrid Thors on antanut tammikuun Hymyyn räväkän haastattelun, jossa hän puolustaa – aivan työkseen – maahanmuuttoa.

-Maahanmuuttajat tuovat osaamista, uusia ajatuksia ja uusia ideoita. Ilman niitä ei teollisuuskaan voi kehittyä. Olemme täysin riippuvaisia vientikaupasta, sillä se tuo 40 prosenttia bruttokansantuotteestamme, Thors lausuu lehdessä.

-Jos emme saa enää maahanmuuttajia, meidän on opeteltava tekemän toisenlaisia töitä. Siinäkin mielessä, ettemme enää saa esimerkiksi bussinkuljettajia ja siivoajia. Suomalaisten on pidennettävä työuriaan, mutta se ei riitä, jos haluamme säilyttää elintasomme. Suuret ikäluokat eläköityvät. Maahanmuuttajia tarvitaan etenkin muuttotappiokuntiin, kuten vaikkapa Pohjois-Karjalan Nurmekseen. Pelkistäen voisi todeta, että ilman maahanmuttoa Suomi tulee näivettymään, laukoo Thors.

  1. JusticeDemon

    There’s nothing new here. I just wonder why this interview is described as räväkkä.

    Now how long until Tony the Toby gives us a reason to lol?

    🙂

  2. Tony Garcia

    “There are countless examples in history that show how immigration has been the latter. ”

    There are also plenty of examples, one just on Finland’s side, that show how immigration has been the former. The problem is that both, skin-heads and multiculturalists, like to generalize when talking about immigration. Both are doing a disservice to their country and to many hard-work-assimilated-integrated immigrants.

    Immigration is an great opportunity when brings groups witch are compatible with the host country, but a disaster when managed in a reckless way.

    • Enrique

      –Both are doing a disservice to their country and to many hard-work-assimilated-integrated immigrants.

      Tell me Tony, which groups were incompatible to Brazilian society? Where they the black slaves that were forced to work for nothing fot he sugar plantations in the Região Nordeste? Was it the Amerindians who first emigrated there?

      You are now trying to play the middle-of-the-road game by pointing two extreme views. But you know what, and you have to give me credit for explaining this countless of times, what does multiculturalism mean? In your world does it mean that there is no diversity in society (no blacks, Chinese, Muslims, Zambos etc) allowed only people who look physically white? I don’t understand your argument.

    • Enrique

      Thank you for the link and I know many Jewish people. But I still don’t get it. How do you build a society where everyone looks and thinks alike? Isn’t that something close to fascism? People can stand to see each other because they look basically alike and they even agree with everything you say. Are you really serious? Was the cultural diversity too much for you? Or were you taught in Brazil a certain ideal of Europe that never existed? When you came here your dreams were shattered and you blamed cultural diversity instead of your relatives who may have had a romantic view of the Old World.

      Since you live in a globalized world and since you live in a culturally diverse world you have no choice but to live with it. There is nothing else you can do.

  3. Tony Garcia

    ” (no blacks, Chinese, Muslims, Zambos etc)”

    Why do you put a religion/culture in the middle of races?

    “How do you build a society where everyone looks and thinks alike?”

    First I’ll try to forget your questions about race, alright? Now, it’s not about how people think but their inability, or in many cases, refusal to give up practices and customs incompatible to the country their freely decided to immigrate to, and for doing so, becoming a problem rather then a solution. The reality is plain and simple, Jewish immigration has been a bless to every place it happened, Islamic immigration, to this date, not so much.

    We can discuss the reasons for that but we can’t deny it.

    “There is nothing else you can do.”

    In Finland? With less than 4% immigrants and vast majority of it Westerns and Russian? humm…

    • Enrique

      –or in many cases, refusal to give up practices and customs incompatible to the country their freely decided to immigrate to.

      This is typical far-right discourse. You will see it over and over again from this group. Because people are “incompatible” we can hate them and be as rude as possible. I think we had a discussion before on how much you understand modern European values. And I am not speaking of Belarus.

  4. JusticeDemon

    Tony the Toby is prejudiced against Moslems. He tries to rationalise this in various ways, but deep down it’s just raw prejudice resulting from his privileged and blinkered upbringing that needs to find someone to blame, because the alternative of self-examination is just too painful to contemplate.

    This kind of psychotic personality is pitiful, but also very dangerous.

    The best remedy is to point out the comical absurdity and inconsistency of the views that Tony the Toby expresses.

    Like Beavis and Butthead, Tony the Toby is not a role model.

  5. xyz

    Not sure if this poll is representative but this is what I found on wiki:

    According to a 2004 telephone survey of a sample of 1846 Muslims conducted by the polling organization Zogby, the respondents were more educated and affluent than the national average, with 59% of them holding at least an undergraduate college degree.

    One in three having an income over $75,000 a year. The editorial also characterized American Muslims as “role models both as Americans and as Muslims”.

    Unlike many Muslims in Europe, American Muslims do not tend to feel marginalized or isolated from political participation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States

    • Enrique

      xyz, you hit it right on the nail. And what you will see behind the success of this is acceptance and opportunity.

  6. Immigrant workers

    I think the question of immigrant workers is not a question of just Yes or No but there are are other questions on this subject

    1 . Would they come from a country where even if they are exploited in Finland would they still be earning more than they would in their own country and therefore not say anything or be too scared to say anything, Which could create a “Cheap labour” syndrome . Would it a good idea for Finland to introduce strict penalties for worker abuse where the employer would be the one to scared to abuse the workers

    2. Would workers be allowed to stay in Finland and maybe bring their families to Finland .
    If so would Finland need to bring extra workers to cope with the demands of the previous workers . Would it not be more easy to not allow people to stay in Finland after their contract has ended

    3. If Finland is going to let more foreign workers into Finland and work straight away, would it be better for Finland to be more selective on where they are from so assimilation would be quicker and easy

    Also there is also the issue of separating “Worker”s from “Asylum” .
    When anti asylum views are aired, the view that we need workers is always used out to justify asylum .
    The fact that most Asylum seekers are unskilled and illiterate would not help the “Foreign worker” question one little bit .
    Would it be more sensible if the immigrant debate was separated into sections Asylum, Foreign workers , family rectification, etc etc .
    And not have them connected into the same issue when there is no need for them to be

  7. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, according to you the only way that Muslims will succeed is if we accept that they mutilate their little girls, dictate to whom their women will marry or what they will dress, discriminate against women, financially support terrorists groups like Hamas or Hezbollah, marry a 12 girl to a 80 years man, call Jews pigs and Christians monkeys, etc?

    Oh well, I’m afraid their “success” will have to wait a bit longer

  8. Immigrant workers

    Also over the next parliamentary term with unemployment as it stands and other factors a increase in Immigrant workers will not be needed. Which gives Finland plenty of time to debate this issue .

    Even though Astrid Thors address this issue I doubt she will be the immigration minster when this issue is addressed.
    I be the first to admit that I an no Astrid Thors fan, but I never thought she was able rationalize her views and this immigrant worker question is a issue which will divided and where plenty of give and take will happen .

  9. Tony Garcia

    “If Finland is going to let more foreign workers into Finland and work straight away, would it be better for Finland to be more selective on where they are from so assimilation would be quicker and easy “

    I think this is a very sensible approach, no any integration policy would be necessary and a lot of money would be saved. All the social problems some groups are bringing to Europe today would never happen. An ease to assimilate skilled work force is exactly what Finland needs today.

    “The fact that most Asylum seekers are unskilled and illiterate would not help the “Foreign worker” question one little bit .”

    Agreed 100%. People who mix asylum and immigrants when talking does it on purpose to confuse the debate.

  10. xyz

    Immigrant worker, I think the issue is that every immigrant has a different background. For example even so you are an Asylum Seeker does not necessarily mean that you are uneducated etc. My friend from Iraq came to Finland as an Asylum Seeker and he is an IT graduate with 4 years work experience in his field.

  11. xyz

    Also since we are in a European Union, there will be an inflow of immigrants from other EU countries. As in my case my girlfriend is Finnish. Does this mean that for example everybody from Germany who is in a relationship with a Finn needs to move to Germany because Finland is not able to handle immigrants. Now I have already 4 Finnnish friends who moved to Germany, Austria and Switzerland. They are all working in decent jobs. Here in Finland I have 2 German friends. 1 runs her own business since she is fed up applying for jobs anymore and the other one is working as a cleaner and is doing Finnish courses since 2 years while her motivation to go there gets lower and lower.

  12. Immigrant workers

    Some asylum seekers are very skilled but there is no logic in taking many unskilled people because amongst them maybe a few skilled people. There is no benefit to Finland to follow this logic.

    There is a difference between EU and Non EU workers as the social and economic situation in Finland and Germany is fairly the same there has never been at large amount of Germans moving to Finland or vice versa so there has always been a managed balance .

    The problem with allowing workers for second or Third world countries into Europe is, as there countries of birth are worse of on a economic sense the workers if given the chance will not return and have their families brought over.
    The difference and one of the problems with multicultural immigration compared to European migration form one West European country to another, is that multiculturalism could not hold the balance as there would never be a reverse trend that a large amount of Finns would move to a second or third world country.
    So you will have a large amount of people coming into Finland ,many whose culture has higher birth rates than the host European nation and because of which will eventually tip the scales and not in the Favour of the host nation

  13. Immigrant workers

    If any one wants to claim asylum in Finland then they should have to make their claim at the closet Finnish embassy from the country they are feeling from.
    This will make it more easy for Finland as they can save huge amounts of time and money and even talent spot anyone who could be a benefit for Finland.
    And it would also be more helpful for the Asylum seeker as he or she would only have to travel a few hundred miles to claim asylum instead of the few thousand miles which they are now doing

  14. JusticeDemon

    Tony the Toby is prejudiced against Moslems and sees everything through that filter.

    It is illegal to discriminate against immigrants on grounds of religion or cultural background in general. Finland is not going to withdraw from the system of international treaties and conventions that make this so, not least because participation in these treaties is a condition of modern international trading arrangements. Without international trade, Finland is dead. In any case, discrimination on grounds of religion or cultural background in general is immoral.

    Finland also likes to cultivate the image internationally as a country that keeps its promises. In the modern information environment this depends on complete authenticity. When Finland deliberately failed to deliver its promises under the 1947 Paris Peace Treaties (Article 6), it was taking a gamble that few people would find out about this and that nobody would really care. This kind of dishonesty is no longer possible.

    It follows from this that Finland cannot and will not introduce the kind of discriminatory policies advocated by Tony the Toby and his brownshirt friends.

  15. JusticeDemon

    Immigrant workers

    At the risk of sounding patronising, you seem a bit inexperienced in discussing questions of migration for employment.

    The cheap labour syndrome that you describe has indeed arisen in some marginal areas of the Finnish economy at various times, and many of the legal reforms of the last 20 years have been motivated by a desire to tackle this problem by restructuring the conditions under which migrant workers are officially admitted to Finland. This is why the employers of migrant workers are required to provide enforceable promises that they will respect the minimum conditions of collective labour agreements, and a residence permit cannot otherwise be issued on the basis of job offers paying less than the de facto minimum wage. It was also one of the main motivations for abandoning arrangements that formerly tied migrant workers to a particular employer.

    One of the structural weaknesses of the present system is that it largely relies on the willingness of employees to enforce their employment rights. This is most commonly achieved through trade union membership, but even here the individual union member must generally authorise the union to act. Many employment rights are not self-actuating, but are the civil equivalent of “complainant offences” in the penal code. In other words, much as criminal charges cannot be brought for offences like defamation unless the victim complains, most claims under employment law require a civil action for damages. This creates an opening for a civil equivalent of battered spouse syndrome, in which the abused party to a relationship is unable to take the legal steps that are necessary to correct the situation.

    Employment is an asymmetric relationship between a weaker party and a stronger party, and most labour laws are designed to rectify this imbalance. For many years the immigration licensing system made this imbalance considerably worse for migrant workers. This has now been largely corrected, but Finnish labour laws nevertheless often still fail to protect the migrant worker as the weaker party to an employment relationship, because these laws were not formulated with migrant workers in mind.

    We have, indeed, introduced new public law penalties for the worst excesses of migrant labour abuse where these come to light, and a few cases have seen considerable publicity. These penalties are clearly not enough, however, and we can expect further reforms that respond to the particular vulnerabilities of recently arrived migrant workers.

  16. Tiwaz

    What do we need more immigrant workers for? To man the queues at social security offices?

    Out unemployment is out of hand! Politicians have been screaming of “running out of workers” for years, and when was last time Finland had 6% or so unemployment? And let’s take into account the means government uses to fix the statistics… As in, someone in some kind of unemployment office “course” suddenly is not unemployed but student!

    We do not need immigrants, we need jobs. Once existing manpower has been exhausted, then there might be reason to think of importing more. Not a day before that.

  17. xyz

    Tiwaz, yep we need jobs here but it seems that it does not really work here in Finland even so there are almost no immigrants here and most of the jobs are protected via the language requirement. So who should create the jobs? I mean even you said that you don’t want to become an entrepreneur. You think jobs will fall from the sky? Why does Germany and Sweden has to give all those Finns jobs? Sorry mate but with your closed minded attitude there will be also no jobs in 20 years in Finland. For new ideas you need new input.

  18. JusticeDemon

    We have heard these fascist lies before.

    Don’t be fooled!

    Eastern Finland has the highest unemployment rate and the lowest immigrant population in the country.

  19. Immigrant workers

    Employers are fined for worker abuse and like you said of theses cases only a few surface and this after a long period of time of abuse. So how much has the employer pocketed in “Cutting corners” and with the amount the fine is it seems to be worth the risk .
    That is the problem to fine an employer whose is in profession to make money seems to be letting them dictate the rules .

    The problem with the issue of immigrant labour is not they work for less money but work for the lowest legal wage and do depress wages in the unskilled job market and even now the skilled market as well.

    Most immigrant workers arrive in Finland and leave their families in the country they come from they send most of their money home and what money they do spend in Finland is the basic for a single man.
    Where as an unskilled Finnish worker with a family his cost of living makes it more difficult form him to live on basic wage . But a migrant worker would find it more easy to mange on basic wage .
    The Finnish worker can demand higher wages but if his employer is paying the lowest legal wage he is under no obligation to increases his wage and being unskilled he does have much bargaining power over the employer. But on most occasions the migrant worker is willing to work for lowest wage and does not complain about being on the lowest wage. So who is the employer more likely to employ?.

    There is no point having employment laws unless they are injected with a sense of moral obligation as well.

  20. Tiwaz

    -“Tiwaz, yep we need jobs here but it seems that it does not really work here in Finland even so there are almost no immigrants here and most of the jobs are protected via the language requirement. So who should create the jobs? I mean even you said that you don’t want to become an entrepreneur. You think jobs will fall from the sky? Why does Germany and Sweden has to give all those Finns jobs? Sorry mate but with your closed minded attitude there will be also no jobs in 20 years in Finland. For new ideas you need new input.”

    So what kind of jobs immigrants who cannot speak the language will make? Who can they sell their product to if they cannot speak to customer in their preferred language?

    Let’s transplant say 50 000 random foreigners into Kainuu. What massive industry will be born out of it?

    Do you think that adding immigrants to area X will suddenly make jobs appear? What is the magical amount of immigrants in any given region which suddenly causes factory to pop up out of thin air?

  21. JusticeDemon

    Immigrant workers

    You have written a footnote to what I said. Recently-arrived migrant workers are especially disadvantaged in employment relationships. Things have improved since the 1980s and it is no longer quite fair to say that the immigration bureaucracy is an accomplice in compounding this disadvantage.

    Of course there is a moral obligation not to exploit the weaker party to an asymmetric relationship, and we can divide the employers of migrant workers into good and bad employers on this basis.

    The issue of remittances to families left behind is a complex one. As a rule, this is not by choice. Migrant workers are generally keen to bring their families to Finland as well, but there are financial obstacles to doing so (you can thank Kokoomus for that one). Remittances then become an essential alternative that is arguably a greater financial burden on the national economy than family reunification.

    Wage increases are generally the outcome of collective bargaining, with negotiated settlements incorporated into legally binding collective agreements. A migrant worker ought to receive the same wage as anyone else of equivalent qualifications doing the same work. If this is not happening then…

    In practice, we have encouraged migrant workers to be more assertive in insisting on their rights, and to join the appropriate trade union for their occupation. It is also sometimes necessary to give the union a firm kick in the pants to pay heed to the needs of its foreign members, although thankfully we no longer have to do this very often in most industries.

  22. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz, you old Nazi

    We have heard all of this before. You know that such transplantation doesn’t happen, and you only suggest it in order to conjure up scary images. This is a standard fascist tactic, but we are not fooled by it.

    • Enrique

      –And some people keep wondering why they just can’t integrate…

      If you have studied in a university and done research, like your thesis, you know that this a layman’s way of making a conclusion. In the same way I could take something horrid carried out by the Irish and pin it on the whole naiton as a characteristic. You know very well that your view is exaggerated and inflated.

  23. Immigrant workers

    Skilled workers tend to want the bring their families more having better wages they can afford to cover the costs of higher rent etc etc. And their “Skills” can be used an bargain tool.
    “If you do not employ me I go to someone else and it could be a loss to you”

    Unskilled workers or lower skilled workers come to Finland with the purpose of over a period of time to earn as much as they can spend as less as they can and then return. Even if they earn the lowest legal wage all the time that they are in Finland ,they are still going to earn the amount they want to earn before returning

    The view that legal workers earn less is a myth but the fact that some do depress wages is a far worse situation as this is done within the law .Now we have the situation where employers offer the job to people living in Finland before offering in abroad shows there is an issue here.

    But like I said the issue of “Foreign workers” is not simply “Yes” or “No” but is a more complicated long process than that

    • Enrique

      Hi Immigrant workers and thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. True, immigration is always complex. But the issues that you are talking about is the consequence of globalization and competition. You have more labor (skilled and semi-skilled) and they have the right to compete with the locals for jobs if they are EU nationals. They can compete in a number of ways: work harder and for the same wages or less.

      The whole debate about foreign labor reminds me of how some members of the Center Party and the anti-EU lobby were trying to defend the agricultural sector from opening up/competition. Finnish consumers were pretty tired of paying some of the highest food prices in Europe. But what were the arguments used to maintain an ineffective and costly sector: Finnish food is clean (right, other countries eat dirty food) and we are self-sufficient. The same argument is being used today by the True Finns (many of them are on social welfare) and Social Democrats to keep a strong hold on the labor market.

      So, in the same way you say that foreign workers will work for slave wages, not pay taxes etc was used by some in the Center Party before 1995 to keep the country from not joining the EU. Some will – like Finnish labor does in some cases – while others won’t.

    • Enrique

      I am still hearing accusations that I got the Buddhist Temple arson attack wrong. Here is the head of the Migration Institute, Ismo Söderling, who is another one who backs my case:

      Turun buddhalaistemppelin tuhopoltto huolestuttaa

      Söderlingin mielestä syyskuussa Turussa tapahtunut buddhalaistemppelin tuhopoltto oli huolestuttava signaali siitä, että Ruotsissa jo yleistynyt muukalaisvastaisuus saattaa levitä myös Suomeen.

      – Me suomalaisetkin olemme rakentaneet esimerkiksi Amerikan mantereelle työväentaloja, raittiustaloja ja kirkkoja. Ne olivat paikkoja, joissa siirtolaiset tapasivat toisiaan. Ei tällaisissa Turun buddhalaistemppeleiden tapaisissa rakennuksissa ole tämän kummemmasta kyse, Söderling painottaa.

      Read more on it in YLE.

  24. JusticeDemon

    Immigrant workers

    It’s not so clear what you mean by skilled and unskilled in this context, but until we remove the financial obstacles to family reunification there will be no way to tell how many migrant workers prefer remittances and repatriation.

    I couldn’t make sense of your third paragraph. Employers are already required to offer work to local jobseekers before recruiting abroad.

  25. JusticeDemon

    Ricky

    You know very well that your view is exaggerated and inflated.

    No, I think Tony the Toby really is genuinely too thick to understand this. That’s why he keeps making this silly error. You can only correct it so many times before you realise that it’s just a mantra. Then the important thing is to make sure that nobody else is fooled into believing that the lol@the TobyJug is offering serious analysis.

  26. Immigrant workers

    The easy way to describable skilled and unskilled would be those who work for Nokia “Skilled” and those who work on building sites “Unskilled or” semi skilled” not the best answer i grant you.

    Many “Unskilled” workers don’t really have and interest in bringing their family over as they just want to earn some money and leave, and that type of work is very nomadic in its nature as its mainly self employed or not tied to one employer it would be impossible to bring your wife and children when you may work in 2-3 countries in one year .

    Where “Skilled” labours is more stable one place or if two within the same city or country over a long period of time .

    Finland talked about a law (and I do not know if they passed it) where employers would have to offer a job to someone who is a citizen of resident of Finland before offering it abroad

    • Enrique

      –Finland talked about a law (and I do not know if they passed it) where employers would have to offer a job to someone who is a citizen of resident of Finland before offering it abroad.

      I know there was such a clause but doesn’t that take away all the glamor of the EU market?

  27. JusticeDemon

    Immigrant workers

    Your perception of the character of migrant workers does not gel with my practical experience. I know plenty of migrant workers in Finland, but none of them are remittance-repatriation minded. Remittances are usually viewed as a necessary evil when family reunification is blocked for some reason.

    The practice that you are describing is called saatavuusharkinta, and has been part of the national policy on migration for employment for more than 40 years. The legislation that you read about concerns a shift from a corporatist to an individual approach in this area.

    Roughly speaking, the old work permit system was originally based on national block-level policies decided from time to time by a committee comprising representatives from public administration and both sides of industry. These policies were, at best, based on a statistical assessment of the need for various types of labour. Even at this time employers were at least supposed to claim that they had made some effort to recruit locally.

    This national system was later replaced by a system of very general national guidelines supplemented by local guidelines that were intended to respond to the fact that the job market is local everywhere. At this stage employers were asked to supply some written justification for hiring from abroad, and this would inevitably involve explaining their efforts to recruit locally. The minimum required effort was to advertise the vacancy free of charge through the mol system.

    Following the abolition of the work permit as a separate licence, the latest moves are seeking to eliminate the corporatist element (tripartite committees, policy guidelines) and rely on a concrete obligation to advertise vacancies as a condition of hiring from abroad. This has upset the traditional advocates of the top-down corporatist approach, but it promises to avoid the problem of businesses that cannot recruit staff because no suitable applicants are available, even though “policy” and “statistics” say that there “ought to be” local jobseekers ready to fill the vacant positions.

    The new approach has the positive value that it also protects the job market of migrant workers who are already here. One of the failings of the corporatist approach was that after it had declared a labour shortage in some occupational category, employers were effectively free to import migrant workers without regard to whether anyone local could do the job. The new approach requires employers to advertise for staff through the public employment service, which can then be relied on to connect unemployed and underemployed immigrants with the corresponding vacancies.

  28. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, as usual you miss the point (I’m really starting to think if this is intentionally). The real problem is not in this person attitude, criminals we have in all groups, but in the way Muslims see us…

    “Mr Al-Hakim, of Fulham, west London, is also said to have labelled his cousin’s immediate family “whores” because of her decision to a adopt western style. “

    They don’t integrate because they hate what we are. Here another example…

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/06/linnanmaki_disturbance_highlights_tensions_between_somalis_and_kurds_in_finland_1741816.html

    Kurds interviewed by YLE were not surprised to hear about tensions with the Somalis. They say that some Somalis have previously taken issue with the habits of secularised Muslims.

    One Kurdish woman spoke of an incident in which a Somali took issue with listening to music at a Finnish language course.

    “When I was on a Finnish language course, we had the same problem. One Somali prevented us from listening to music, saying that it is banned under Islamic law.”

  29. Immigrant workers

    Like I said legal migrant workers don’t work for slave wages but work for lowest legal wage and they also pay wages.

    And there is also the argument “They do the jobs that no one else wants to do” which is another “Pro immigration” myth .
    As I have said that it is difficult for someone who lives in Finland with a family who does those jobs to live on basic wage and because of legal migrant workers have now depressed wages (think about what the illegal ones have done) in a completion the employer would rather legally chose the migrant worker instead of the citizen .

    The main blame for the reason with have the immigration worker debate does lay on the door of the EU. Most sensible people agreed giving the citizens of the new EU states full employment rights and free movement was not needed but also could cause too many serious problems, but as usual the EU did not listen and now they are getting punished in the polls because of it .

  30. Immigrant workers

    The key issue is that there is not slave wages in legal migrant labour in Finland but wages which are fully legal but because of which are depressing wages in certain areas .

    The government can not stop theses issue if its legal framework is allowing it for it happen its not the employer that needs to change but the legal framework from the government.

    Going off the subject the people who this is affecting the most are already supporters or will be supporters of the True Finns. And for the government to claim not to be behind their rise is a bit insulting to be honest with you.

  31. xyz

    Immigrant workers, you should tell this to the 10.000 Finns working in Germany while there are only 2.500 Germans in Finland. Why are there so less Germans here if the German population is much higher than the Finnish one? I think the EU is a really cool thing, problem is only that you have to educate people that we are all sitting in one boat. EU has to compete for example against Asia in the future. You have to think in a bigger scale.

  32. xyz

    As I have said that it is difficult for someone who lives in Finland with a family who does those jobs to live on basic wage and because of legal migrant workers have now depressed wages
    -It’s the task of the government that wages are paid equally. It’s not the fault of the immigrants. If you are desperately looking for a job in a country you just take anything in order to survive. I would also take a lower job here in Finland than what I would for example work in Germany. As I said I am not here because I see any financialy benefit or because I can progress in my career here. I just hope that my girlfriend graduates soon and then we can move together away if nothing pops up here. The Alps are also a nice place to live.

  33. JusticeDemon

    Immigrant workers

    Labour generally finds its price through collective bargaining. It will be interesting to see whether the growing number of immigrants working in public transport has any impact on the frequency or severity of strike action in this sector. So far, at least, I can see no evidence that the average pay of bus drivers has fallen, even though there are many more foreign drivers than a decade ago.

    If you nevertheless think there is a danger of wage dumping in occupations with a high proportion of immigrants, then perhaps you could explain what legislative changes could combat this.

  34. Immigrant workers

    XYZ

    The issue is not that one group is getting paid less than another or getting “Slave wages” .

    The issue is that to stop worker exploration the government rightly brought in the basic wage . The problem now is that many employers in certain fields would rather employ migrant workers than Finnish citizens as they can pay them basic wage (which is all legal) and not really worry about theses immigrant workers asking for pay rises and causing a fuss and its very unlikely in theses fields to see employers increasing wages so you get wage depression.

    It seems now the basic wage which was brought in to help Finnish workers is now having the opposite effect , so the government does need to bring the basic wage issue into a more modern age.

  35. xyz

    Immigrant worker, I don’t see any issue here as long as they pay the minimum salary and the cost savings are forwarded to the consumer. If the native has not anything else to offer than being native why should he earn more money?

  36. Immigrant workers

    Bus drivers live in Finland for a long period of time and therefore eventually have to cope with all the financial s difficulties as all of us so they start to have the thinking that Finnish workers will have.

    The problem is the unskilled semi skilled workers who come into Finland for a year or less and whilst here don’t mind putting up with shit.
    Before the days of the EU or “New EU” there would be tighter restrictions to the point that their request to work in Finland would be rejected . I think this issue is mainly a EU issue and until there is more on rules on the movement of certain types of workers it would hopefully reduce numbers and for employers to consider Finnish people more .
    But Finland does need to update its labour laws every few years as the theses issues take many forms over a period of time

  37. Immigrant workers

    Because the cost of living of someone living in Finland does go up unless the government increases the basic wage to meet theses cost the employer is of no obligation to do the same.
    Which means a Finnish worker can not or if he or she can just about survive of basic wage .

    Most immigrant workers who are here just to earn some money for a year tend to live in hostels or share an apartment with 4 other people so there living costs is less so its more easy for them to survive on wages they have not been increased to meet the increase on the cost of living.
    And also as their home country the cost of living maybe more cheaper when it comes to providing for the wife and children its a lot more easy as even basic Finnish wage is still high compared to their country of origin. This is why also they don’t bring their families with them if they are from another EU country

  38. JusticeDemon

    Immigrant workers

    to stop worker exploration the government rightly brought in the basic wage

    Ah – now I see the confusion. You aren’t talking about Finland at all.

    Wages in Finland are mainly set by collective agreements. Outside of industries with a generally binding collective agreement there is no minimum wage as such. A wage that is manifestly disproportionate to the work required may be interpreted as an unfair contractual term, and there are laws against extortion.

    For the purpose of immigration rules, a job offer is supposed to include a guarantee of a living wage in order to serve as grounds for issuing a residence permit. The rule of thumb for determining a living wage is 40 times the basic rate of unemployment benefit per month. This is derived from the rules for determining whether an unemployed person has an employment history (työssäoloehto).

  39. xyz

    If you would be a company, would you hire somebody who costs twice as much and delivers the same quality while wondering at the end why you didn’t get the contract from your customer because there is another company which offers the same product for a better price?

    When I worked for example in Ireland there were many from Poland and to be honest those who I met worked really hard. They have the same problem that there are not many jobs available in Poland. So what can they do? Go to a country where there are jobs. Believe me, there are many of them who would prefer to live in Poland rather than in Ireland but sometimes you just don’t have the choice.

    The same for the Finns. What if other countries would say that they should prefer natives more. Would be quite bad for the Finns as well especially since there are plenty of Finns actually working abroad.

  40. JusticeDemon

    I should add that the main rule for determining whether a full-time job offer can serve as grounds for issuing a residence permit is compliance with the collective agreement for the type of work in question. The living wage principle tends to apply only to part-time employment and to work that is not covered by any collective agreement.

  41. Immigrant workers

    XYZ

    Its because one group does not want more, there is the thought that if they don’t more then they wont give it to the other group that does want more

    Its not a question of one group getting more than another Its the reverse

  42. xyz

    Immigrant Workers: What do you mean with if one group does not want more? I just told you how I would see it as a company. Lets say Finland would have not joined the EU and production would be still in Finland. Do you think their phones would be competitive in other countries from a price point of view? Most likely not.

  43. JusticeDemon

    Well, Immigrant workers, you keep shifting the goalposts. Now you are no longer talking about immigrants at all, but transient labour. You are also no longer talking about the residence permit system, but the exercise of EU treaty rights.

    One of the errors of the trade union movement in recent years was to insist on a transition period on hiring workers from the new Member States immediately after the last wave of EU enlargement. The direct outcome of this policy was a boom in the transboundary services market, whereby instead of hiring citizens of the new member States, businesses in Finland purchased services from subcontractors in those countries. These subcontractors then sent their own employees (in practice the same workers) to perform these “services” for businesses in Finland.

    This arrangement seriously hampered effective trade union organisation and supervision of the terms and conditions of employment of workers in Finland. Instead of coming to Finland as staff members of well-organised local corporations (i.e. “welcome to Finland. I am your personnel manager and Seppo is your shop steward”), these employees were hired abroad and sent directly to the worksite by their foreign managers (i.e. “your next assignment is in Finland, here is your flight ticket and the name of your site foreman, who will give you the key to your bunkhouse”). The trade in “services” effectively bypassed most of the mechanisms that exist to protect employees in Finland, and it was the trade union movement that unwittingly encouraged businesses to explore and develop this option.

    We tried to warn them at the time. One SAK employee came perilously close to getting fired for calling attention to a policy that turned out to be an unmitigated disaster for trade union organisation and labour protection.

  44. Immigrant workers

    “I should add that the main rule for determining whether a full-time job offer can serve as grounds for issuing a residence permit is compliance with the collective agreement for the type of work in question. The living wage principle tends to apply only to part-time employment and to work that is not covered by any collective agreement”

    That is the problem there does not seem to many strings attached when it comes to part time – short term contract work.
    The short term three month contract is seen to see if the worker can fit within the company. But this is what employer uses to get on in and then out and get another one in .
    This is what I said the moral issue has been removed from some employers and firms

  45. Immigrant workers

    All immigrant labour is transient labour at some point.

    And this what I said the ” worker issue” is a number of factors all with different factors which some connected with each other some which do not.

    The fact Finland does not need to increase outside labour over the next parliamentary term is an advantage because this will take an parliamentary term to work out which way to go

  46. Immigrant workers

    I don’t have any problem with people who work on a high level coming to work for Noika as there will be some high level Nokia workers going to another phone company.
    This keeps ideas moving by sharing new ideas.

    But the problem Nokia will need people to make them phones which does not take a genius to do so the question is who would you employ to do this? the person who has no problem on legal basic wage or the person who would want maybe a little more than basic wage

  47. xyz

    Are thos Nokia phones made in Finland at all?

    What I don’t really understand is why parties make such a big deal about immigration to Finland? I think they should more focus on how to create new jobs and not how the protect the few jobs here. Do they have any plan how they get investors to Finland or how to make entrepreneurship more interesting. I think those are the points they should focus on..

    • Enrique

      Here is an interesting thread I picked up on Facebook by a Nigerian woman who lives in Helsinki:

      “Your car is Japanese. Your Vodka is Russian. Your pizza is Italian. Your kebab is Turkish. Your democracy is Greek. Your coffee is Brazilian. Your movies are American. Your tea is Tamil. Your shirt is Indian. Your oil is Saudi Arabian. Your electronics are Chinese. Your numbers Arabic, your letters Latin. And you complain that your neighbor is an immigrant? Pull yourself together! Copy if you’re against racism.

  48. Immigrant workers

    The problem workers in certain jobs and fields in Finland can not have their Jobs protected as the laws to a certain point don’t just protect their jobs they are putting them at risk .

    Until we talk about Foreign labour or Foreign investment into Finland the question of the rights and protection of workers in Finland needs to be addressed first.

  49. xyz

    I don’t know but are there any secure jobs at all beside governmental jobs? I think it is quite normal that you have to compete with others. The best guy wins (and as a native you have anyway plus points).

  50. Immigrant workers

    I don’t know but are there any secure jobs at all beside governmental jobs? I think it is quite normal that you have to compete with others. The best guy wins (and as a native you have anyway plus points).

    In this case it comes to economics and nothing else .

  51. JusticeDemon

    Again, Immigrant workers you shift from subject to subject.

    It is illegal in Finland to base temporary hiring on a trial period, so you are here talking about lawbreaking by employers. It is also illegal to disadvantage temporary employees per se. The relevant collective agreement applies, irrespective of the duration of employment.

    Transient labour refers to people like fruit pickers, who travel to an area only when a certain job needs to be done and then leave afterwards. It is simply untrue to say that all migrant labour is like this at some point, particularly with regard to migrant workers properly so called. I explained above how a serious strategic error by the Finnish trade union movement has needlessly encouraged fragmentation of jobs into service assignments performed by foreign subcontractors. We can all see that it would have been better for Finnish construction companies to hire their own Estonian ventilation system fitters than to purchase the services of the same Estonians from companies registered in Tallinn. The “transition period” introduced to “protect” the Finnish labour market backfired spectacularly.

    • Enrique

      Here is one for a bumper sticker: Successful immigration: Acceptance and equal opportunity.

  52. xyz

    5.4 Obstacles to finding work in Tampere
    The respondents found the lack of language skills (33 respondents), lack of
    connections to local employers (26 respondents) and lack of information about
    job opportunities (18 respondents) the most common obstacles to finding work in
    Tampere. Several of those who had not worked during their studies also pointed
    out that they would be interested if they could find work related to their studies.
    However, according to several respondents, the main problem is that basic
    Finnish skills are often not considered enough and fluent Finnish language skills
    are expected even in jobs requiring little communication. Still, only seven
    respondents felt that they had experienced discrimination when applying for a
    job.
    http://www.uta.fi/studies/surveys/2007/degree_students/surveyreport_international_degree_students_2007.pdf

  53. JusticeDemon

    lol@the TobyJug

    the right people

    This is your ridiculous snobbery again. “The right people” – “The people who are really worth knowing”

    Way back in 1973 Monty Python commented splendidly on this attitude in the Bigot:

    Deep down, let’s face it, all of us hate foreigners. It’s quite natural when one lives in such a beautiful and perfect country as our own to hate and loathe those greasy-haired swivelling toadies from Europe and beyond. What worries me is that sometimes this hatred is so deep down that many of us forget about it, and instead of hitting Frenchmen and letting Dagos’ tyres down, we are buying garlic-smelling French cars and eating filthy chunks of Wop dough in stinking Pizza parlours. Now I’m not saying that we should go out and burn down the nearest Eye-tie, Chink, Froggie or Pakki restaurant – I think the army should be doing that – but if we are going to keep this lovely country of ours beautiful, clean and deeply religious, we must remember that the Young Bigots Club is only a phone call away. They will come round at a moment’s notice and tread on packets of Gauloises and throw Grundig equipment down the lavatory. Remember, Tolerance is a great Finnish virtue – let’s not waste it on Yids, Polacks, Wops, Krauts and Arabs.

    Tony the Toby is simply too dense to appreciate that he sounds like a 1970s parody.

    lol

  54. Tiwaz

    -“5.4 Obstacles to finding work in Tampere
    The respondents found the lack of language skills (33 respondents), lack of
    connections to local employers (26 respondents) and lack of information about
    job opportunities (18 respondents) the most common obstacles to finding work in
    Tampere. Several of those who had not worked during their studies also pointed
    out that they would be interested if they could find work related to their studies.
    However, according to several respondents, the main problem is that basic
    Finnish skills are often not considered enough and fluent Finnish language skills
    are expected even in jobs requiring little communication. Still, only seven
    respondents felt that they had experienced discrimination when applying for a
    job.”

    And has it occurred to these students that Finns have same issues regarding knowing about opportunities and connections?

    When I moved to TRE region looking for work, I had no connections to employers either. I just answered a job ad at MOL-site.

    Something every single immigrant could have done.

    Regarding language. Well, what do you expect? Well over 90% of people here speak… Finnish. They prefer to speak… Finnish.

    How on earth it would come as a surprise to students that successful employment would often require fluent… Finnish.
    If you plan to live in a country, learn to adjust to that country. Part of it is indeed learning local language. Failure to do so is not failure of society, but failure of immigrant. While courses might be hard to find, there is veritable ocean of information to be gleaned from everyday life.
    Store products commonly have same text in multiple languages etc etc etc. It is question of opening ones eyes, squaring shoulders to meet the challenge and going out of your own familiar and comfortable zone of “only English for me please”.

    -“The third factor was related to Finnish society, in particular to attitudes towards
    foreigners. Openness and a welcoming attitude would make them stay in the
    future, however, if international degree students cannot make contacts and find
    friends they would rather go somewhere else.”

    This again has fault at least as much in immigrants/students. They have not bothered to learn Finnish culture. They expect people of completely different culture to act according to same cultural rules of human interaction as their own native folk. Who is again to blame, society for living as it has always lived.

    Let’s give an example I have read from forum I think a good while ago, by immigrant herself.
    She was working in Finland, in Finnish company. She did her job, but her boss was not patting her shoulder as he would in her country of origin. Eventually she went to her boss to ask what she was doing wrong. Boss was surprised and told she was not doing anything wrong, she was very good worker.

    Catch of story? For Enrique it is all about how Finns are racist. But in reality case is different. Boss did not go shower her with compliments because Finns tend not to do that. Finnish worker would not have expected her boss to come pat her shoulder for doing her job. Actual problem was in immigrant not understanding the dynamics of Finnish society. Sure, boss could be more “culturally sensitive”, but let’s take into account that there are hundreds of different cultures out there. Boss has no way of knowing preferences of each one, not should he.

    Alas, in Finland there is one dominant culture, Finnish. Immigrant studying how this culture works and interacts is nowhere near as ludicrous requirement as assuming that Finn learns all possible cultures employees might have.

  55. xyz

    Tiwaz, you can be happy if any international student comes here at all. I would’t chose this country if I would have the chance again to study and I think it is important to educate prospect students not to come here either. Problem is that they don’t have any clue whats going on here because Universities do not publish this stuff on their website. They can study here for 2-4 years for a degree which is useless. What is the use of offering education which is useless for the own country? Maybe you need to be a Finn in order to understand it. I don’t see any logic behind this. But I am quite sure that there would be as good as no international students in Finland if they would not offer any English Degree courses.

  56. xyz

    And how does Tiwaz explain this:
    “The third factor was related to Finnish society, in particular to attitudes towards
    foreigners. Openness and a welcoming attitude would make them stay in the
    future, however, if international degree students cannot make contacts and find
    friends they would rather go somewhere else.”

  57. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz, you old Nazi

    Finnish businesses invest a fortune in leadership training for line managers emphasising the importance of giving positive feedback to the workforce. What a waste of money, when all they really need is a quick refresher course in management by Perkele from Tiwaz, our resident neo-Nazi.

  58. Tiwaz

    Time to drop by and civilize those who think their censored and thus Finland owes them everything….

    “Tiwaz, you can be happy if any international student comes here at all.”
    Considering they are not paying their studies, all the better.

    ” I would’t chose this country if I would have the chance again to study and I think it is important to educate prospect students not to come here either.”
    I think it is important to realize that those students who apply are responsible for THEMSELVES. Finland is in no way required to hold their hands all the way through the process. If idiots do not do their homework, it is THEIR OWN FAULT.

    “Problem is that they don’t have any clue whats going on here because Universities do not publish this stuff on their website.”
    Maybe they should find other sources. Information is out there. UTFG

    “They can study here for 2-4 years for a degree which is useless.”
    Same for Finns. We have huge oversupply of “media assistents” who are completely useless. Not to mention all those artsy guys pushed out from various schools for them.

    “What is the use of offering education which is useless for the own country?”
    None of it is useless, some of it just leads to fields where competition for jobs is so much harder because need is vastly exceeded by supply.

    “Maybe you need to be a Finn in order to understand it. I don’t see any logic behind this.”
    Our school system needs some rework indeed, but only in regards to amount of students permitted to already massively oversupplied fields.

    “But I am quite sure that there would be as good as no international students in Finland if they would not offer any English Degree courses.”

    True. Which still does not in any way excuse their idiocy in not learning Finnish while they are studying. Instead just assuming that they will have special spot reserved for them in “no Finnish required”-job.

    “And how does Tiwaz explain this”

    Simple, immigrant stupidity for great deal. They stick to each other, trying to avoid learning language and culture of Finland as much as they can.

    As result, they are socially about as desirable companions as lepers. Not understanding how Finnish culture expects people to behave.

    And when dealing with Finns, they ARE judged according to Finnish cultural norms. So not knowing them is unacceptable faux pas.
    Finnis society has it’s own culture and culture defines how social interactions take place. If immigrant does not learn those rules, it is no wonder that they do not get social contacts because their behavior can be very rude.

  59. Tiwaz

    What? You do not dare to demand that Finns must judge other based on some other cultural tradition in Finland? How surprising.

    Or perhaps you think that such practice is somehow universal.

    Finns live in Finland according to Finnish cultural tradition. Finns speak Finnish. Finns expect you to do your own homework when applying for school.

    Blame not Finns for your own failures immigrants. And goes for you too xyz.

  60. xyz

    I just got a permanent job here in Finland. Took me 3 1/2 years to get it. Those Finns who hired me have all lived abroad for years as well. I think this makes the difference with Tiwaz. Tiwaz was not able to live in the UK and gave up after a few months. I suppose this is one reason why he/she/it don’t like immigrants.

  61. xyz

    Thank you Enrique. I am so happy as well. At least I can stay now here for a while until my girlfriend graduates and then we can look what we do next.

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