HS: Rasismia ei torjuta etuja purkamalla

by , under All categories, Enrique

Comment: Here is a good Helsingin Sanomat editorial on the public statement made Thursday by the Perussuomalaiset (PS) against all forms of racism.

The inclusion of so-called positive discrimination, or lowering the bar for some minorities, in the PS statement was criticized by the editorial.

If the PS had their way, their recipe for social equality, even for minorities such as the Roma, would be to scale back positive discrimination. HS disagrees with this position.

Moreover, one could ask if eliminating positive discrimination would be an effective way of undermining or fueling greater racism in society?

In a culturally diverse society it is important that we have the right mix of ethnicities and sex in any job. The other side of the coin is that if  minorities are not sufficiently represented in certain fields like the police force, it could lead to perceptions of institutional racism and sexism. The end result? Lack of credibility.

Leveling out the playing field for all people, even those that aren’t as fortunate enough to compete equally with other groups, is a noble way of promoting equality by leveling the playing field.

The other side of that policy could be that all forms of discrimination are wrong, even positive. This is the argument that the PS has chosen to take.

_____________

Perussuomalaisten eduskuntaryhmä ilmoitti keskiviikkoiltana julkilausumalla tuomitsevansa kaikenlaisen rasismin, syrjinnän ja väkivallan.  Perussuomalaisilta oli vaadittu kannanottoa siksi, että yksi puolueen kansanedustajista on toistuvasti käyttänyt maahanmuuttajista ilmauksia, jotka luokitellaan rasistisiksi. Eduskuntaryhmä antoi samalla edustajalleen huomautuksen.

Read whole story.

  1. Allan

    I rather the police were competent. Being hired just because you are noble lacks the credibility.

    All kids in Finland are given the same opportunitoes in school. If their ” culture” lacks in promoting education it is one reason not to allow ” multiculturalism” or if you choose multiculturalism you choose lack of education and the consequences. Why should someone not put in the effort be given the same opportunity as someone who studied hard? You would object if the lazy who got the job was white, and the hardworking was black.

  2. JusticeDemon

    Paragraph 4 of Article 1 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination seems a reasonable formulation:

    Special measures taken for the sole purpose of securing adequate advancement of certain racial or ethnic groups or individuals requiring such protection as may be necessary in order to ensure such groups or individuals equal enjoyment or exercise of human rights and fundamental freedoms shall not be deemed racial discrimination, provided, however, that such measures do not, as a consequence, lead to the maintenance of separate rights for different racial groups and that they shall not be continued after the objectives for which they were taken have been achieved.

    This represents positive discrimination as corrective action that aims to establish equal rights.

    It’s hard to find any real fault with this idea, which amounts to fair redress for unfair deprivation. Personally I think that principles of this kind lie at the heart of what we mean by a society or other human collective. Public health services are an obvious case in point. We maintain medical and ambulance services in order to redress the situation of individuals suffering from a sudden and severe loss of health. This is based on the idea that health is a right, and that society should accordingly arrange special measures to redress inequalities in the field of health. When health has been restored, however, there is no further entitlement to the benefit of these special measures.

    These special measures may also be collective. Eastern Finland used to have the world’s highest death rate from heart disease. A specific public project was launched in 1972 to tackle this problem in North Karelia. I don’t recall anyone in Helsinki complaining at the time about this positive discrimination in health care allocation to one part of the country.

    I wonder if any of our more rabid contributors would like to offer objections to this in principle. If not, then what is the problem with special measures taken to correct corresponding imbalances in the labour market? If we suppose that employers have been influenced by remarks made here and elsewhere about Somalis, Moslems, Norwegians, blondes, etc. being incompetent, lazy or otherwise unfit for employment, and if expert studies suggest that this influence affects hiring decisions, then why should we not allocate resources to correcting the associated unfair loss of rights?

  3. Allan

    Yes, indeed;

    “provided, however, that such measures do not, as a consequence, lead to the maintenance of separate rights for different racial groups and that they shall not be continued after the objectives for which they were taken have been achieved.”

    Would like see this happen.

  4. Edna

    Where does it say that positive discrimination means that people who can’t compete will get spots they don’t deserve in anything? Corrective action, discriminates against institutions that would like to block certain people out. Quota’s etc. are designed to prevent unfairness and discrimination against individuals based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, height, physical ability, country of origin, etc. And protect minorities from being blocked out of society.

    In a fair society all rates of development should be relatively equal in each population. If the majority group has a 10 % unemployment rate, all minority groups should also only have a 10% unemployment rate. If a work place or school doesn’t reflect equality based on statistics then there has so be an explanation. If 15% of one group are employed as journalists, there has to be a good reason why 15% of any other group in the same society isn’t. If the reason is that 90% of newspapers don’t hire candidates from certain groups, or there are other road blocks regarding access to education, birth control, basic life needs etc. that would interfere with interested persons pursuing the profession than society has to respond. If it happens that there aren’t 15% of applicants from other groups, then we have space for more research to find out why. But if we believe that it is because there are not enough competent candidates in any of the other groups we are passing negative, uninformed, baseless, and irresponsible judgement that ultimately is of no constructive use. Unequal performance sometimes reflects unequal competence on an individual level, but never on a group level. When society assumes anything else, we make a mistakes and miss an opportunity to realize fairness, peace, understanding, and the reality of our collective potential.

    Corrective action in the form of quotas and special programs is just a way for the collective to send the right message to those who would like to practice racism, sexism etc. and to build fairness. Believing that laws that mandate inclusiveness only benefit those who are incompetent creates and environment that denies the realities of inequality in society, and makes life generally uncomfortable for minorities who are doing their best and it’s never good enough.

    Statements like: “Why should someone (who has) not put in the effort be given the same opportunity as someone who (has) studied hard? ” can also be read as “Why should a local who’s never had to work at speaking the language be given job that requires knowledge of the local language, when they are competing with a foreigner who has worked hard to learn the same language with the same fluency?” If more people thought that way foreigners with sufficient language skills would always be the first on any employers list of candidates.

    When one say’s
    “You would object if the lazy who got the job was white, and the hardworking was black.” they imagine away the reality of racism. The situation of one lazy getting the job being white, and the hardworking that doesn’t get the job black is very real. There is no “would” or “if” to it. Fair minded people object to the common scenario of whites getting jobs without having to actually compete with hardworking, well educated, well trained and experienced people of color. We have what is being called here Positive Discrimination laws, so that maybe we can fix it.

    • Enrique

      Hi Edna and welcome to Migrant Tales. Could not agree more with you about the important role so-called positive discrimination plays in our society. That is why the PS statement against positive discrimination is worrisome and in line with their view of different groups in our society. Doing away with positive discrimination would fuel more racism at the end of the day because it would create social inequality.

      What do you think the PS stance on this says about their mindset?

  5. Edna

    You asked: What do you think the PS stance on this says about their mindset?

    I think it say’s that they are scrambling to try and make sense out of a platform that doesn’t.

  6. Yossie

    in my opinion the quotas and “positive” actions are not the way to go. Its the total opposite. Race and ethnicity should be an non-issue when applying in a job, totally irrelevant and not a topic for any kind of job application. Quotas are taking us to the wrong direction making the race into a big issue when hiring people. In an ideal world race wouldnt be looked into but now it would make us look the racial ratios in general and ratios with these new recruits. In general going into a wrong direction if we want to world where race doesnt matter.

    In my opinion “positive discrimination” do increase racism. I think finns have a very strong sense of fairness and making a fast lane for some immigrants doesnt make people feel better about them. It just gives the image that they are not as good and need to be given lower expectations.

    If there is problems with prejudice, that is what we should fight against. We should point out the wrongs in percieved image if there is any and show the true and absolute truth. I do not think they should be hiring immigrant police only because

    “it could lead to perceptions of institutional racism and sexism.”

    we should clear the misconceptions with transparent evaluations and tests rather than making racial based hirings.

  7. Martin-Éric

    Positive discrimination is NOT about giving people jobs they wouldn’t normally deserve. Rather, it’s about encouraging people who would normally throw away someone’s résumé JUST because they have a foreign-sounding name to at least get invited to the interview.

    • Enrique

      Hi Martin-Éric: good point: Positive discrimination is NOT about giving people jobs they wouldn’t normally deserve. Rather, it’s about encouraging people who would normally throw away someone’s résumé JUST because they have a foreign-sounding name to at least get invited to the interview.

  8. Yossie

    Martin-Eric

    Why on earth would that what you discribed be considered discrimination at all? If that was “positive discrimination”, then no one would have any problems with it. If they are qualified then ofcourse should be invited to interview.

    What really upsets the people is the “positive discrimination” like the one City of Helsinki does by recruiting immigrants not as qualified as Finns only because they are immigrants.

  9. Martin-Éric

    The city of Helsinki does not recruit unqualified applicants over qualified ones. If you’re gonna claim otherwise, you better have some solid and ample evidence to back your claims.

  10. Martin-Éric

    Exactly how is a link to erekryhelsinki supposed to pass as evidence that the few immigrants that get a job at the city of Helsinki are less qualified than Finnish applicants to the same jobs?

    • Enrique

      Yes, Allan, and with your brain could you tell me if you ever heard of “Jan Gästrin PhD,” the author of the 1940 Suomen Kuvalenti article?

  11. Allan

    Not heard of, but he seems to be a Swedish psychologist who published from 193o’s to late 1960’s if you go look in the Swedish library net you might find a biography.

    Or is it some kind of surprise for you that SK used translated articles at the time?

  12. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Positive discrimination is NOT about giving people jobs they wouldn’t normally deserve. Rather, it’s about encouraging people who would normally throw away someone’s résumé JUST because they have a foreign-sounding name to at least get invited to the interview.’

    You people must be very ignorant and naive if you think that an employer who routinely throws away applications just because of a foreign sounding name will magically have a change of heart when those same applicants are interviewed. If anything their foreign accent (if they can even speak Finnish) and looks would make them even more inclined to reject them. You forget that in big organisations and especially public ones the decision making is usually made by a group of people not just by one individual so an employer who acts this way to non native applications would be found out pretty quickly and made to answer for his/her actions.

    The problem of positive discrimination is it does promote hiring people solely based on their race who otherwise wouldn’t stand a chance of getting in normally because let’s face it if there were many equally or better qualified non natives then positive discrimination would not be needed in the first place.

    One of the main reasons supporters claim for positive discrimination is that the people who hold positions reflect society. Anyone who follows football would know that the French national football team is predominately consisted of black or Arab origin players. That obviously doesn’t reflect on France as a whole so why was there a huge problem when Senior heads of the national team allegedly approved of a system to limit black players and those of north African origins on youth training schemes? This is the same positive discrimination but just for the majority not the minority as they are vastly under represented. As usual there is a lack of consistency and double standards in liberal policy all in the name of equality but only when it is advantageous for the minority.

    I for one despise any forms of positive discrimination whether for the majority or the minority. If the best 11 French football players are black then they all deserve to start because they are better then the rest. The same should apply to all other occupations. The most qualified people should be the ones who get hired. Simple as that and that’s the fairest system. Any other way would indicate a fall in standards and quality.

  13. Allan

    Martin-Eric you miss my point so I am not explaining you anything as you are asking a different question. If you are so stuck into your one track mind that is your problem. I was talking of the numbers. If theres only some 1 or 2. % of foreigners with the right qualifications applying then it is not any surprise if theres only a fraction who eventually get hired. I also pointed out what kind of jobs there are so you can guesstimate how many people straight off the airplane would qualify. No use blaming adhominem you are incapable of following logical thought.

  14. Martin-Éric

    http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/Inter+multiculturalism+what+really+issue/4854951/story.html

    This article discusses a similar issue elsewhere. I have often said that comparing Suomi with Ontario was the wrong approach and that Suomi’s case is closer to Québec’s case. This article confirms it. Skip the intro about terminological disagreement and go towards the end of the article. The rest of Canada doesn’t discriminate against people from minorities (same as in the rest of Nordic countries) but Québec does (same as Suomi).

    • Enrique

      Thank you for the link, Martin-Éric. Couldn’t agree more. It’s like when politicians fail at a policy they wash their hands and accuse immigrants of not wanting to integrate. It’s the same argument by some politicians who claim that immigrants are out to siphon social welfare. Any person who travels thousands of kilometers from his homeland, moves to a new country where he’ll have to learn the language and customs cannot be considered “lazy.” If anything, it shows a great deal of ambition to better his life. When we keep people on the dole like young working-age immigrants, we not only squander their future but Finland loses an opportunity.

  15. Martin-Éric

    From the article I just mentioned:

    “Obviously the problem is not one of qualifications or willingness to work. It is more a case of the door to integration being shut in their faces.”

    And that is exactly the same issue that we are facing in Suomi, compared to other Nordic countries. It is the same unsuccessful integration as Québec versus the rest of Canada. Both Québec and Suomi happen to have a strong nationalist agenda, while the rest of Canada and the Nordic countries have a civic agenda. The conclusions are fairly obvious.

  16. Allan

    Ah, M-E good article. Quebec is a bit of Åland islands of Canada. But I agree they have a very healthy attitude towards multiculturalism. I like them alrady 😆

  17. Yossie

    Martin-Eric

    Sorry for my late reply but I was unable to respond earlier. What I based my accusation is the guide for preventing racism

    http://www.hel.fi/wps/wcm/connect/6cea39004a17258e8582ed3d8d1d4668/rasisminestaminen.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&lmod=-958623142&CACHEID=6cea39004a17258e8582ed3d8d1d4668

    starting from page 4 chapter 1.3

    “työhönotossa voidaan ottaa huomioon hakijan etninen tausta palkkaamalla tehtävään työmarkkinoilla aliedustettuun ryhmään kuuluva henkilö, vaikka tämä ei olisi aivan yhtä pätevä kuin paremmin edustettuun
    ryhmään kuuluva.”

    Its in finnish however, I hope its not a problem. Basically its what I said ebout prefering minorities even if they less qualified.

    Enrique

    I think your a bit naive if you think there isnt people out there to siphon the benefits. Lets imagine there is far away coutry that offers you money 100 times what you make in your job and you dont even have to do anything and lets you take your family too without you needing to pay a penny. I´m sure no one is interested…

    How do you explain the differences in unemployment rates in immigrant groups. Somalis, Iraqis and Afgans are somewhere around 50-60% when Ghana, Ethiopians and turkies are 8-22% . Should they not be affected by racism at same way? What makes the difference?

    I thin you shouldnt read too much finnish racims. There is real racist but mostly people are upset by the fact that you want to think all immigrants are always good and honest and nothing is never their fault. There is lazy people who have not learned language in 20 years, not wanting to accept finnish customs. We accept people who willing to work and if we they can make up bussiness that sells abroad all the better!

  18. Martin-Éric

    Yossie,

    The keywords there are “voidaan” which is not compulsory and “ei aivan yhtä pätevä” which is a matter of razor-thin difference. It’s also useful to know how that paragraph is generally interpreted by Helsinki city officials: usually as, if that immigrant has the right diploma but no experience, let’s consider taking the immigrant instead of a Finn who has, in addition to the right diploma, tons of experience, because the immigrant needs to finally get to point A and start amassing relevant work experience that the Finn already has.

  19. Martin-Éric

    I’ll also call bullshit on “we accept those wiling to work” since my and many other immigrants’ experience has been that, quite often, we are even more qualified than the Finn that got the job and yet, we have not been invited to the interview.

  20. Yossie

    I find it interesting that you complain about not getting selected even though your more qualified but when it comes to city of helsinki’s case its ok to pick the less qualified since he is an immigrant. I would imagine that since you have been turned down even if your more qualified is certainly a no way to go even if the intentions are good. I can imagine it doesnt feel right.

    Ofcourse I can speak for myself only but I do accept thos willing to work. The thing that upsets people are the ones abusing the system.

    Getting a job is never easy for a finn either. We got loads of finnish unemployed too so finding a good job is not easy. However I do not believe the right way to fight the problem is different standards

    • Enrique

      –The thing that upsets people are the ones abusing the system.

      You make a lot of assumptions Yossie. (1) A lot of people (immigrants?) are abusing the system; (2) refugees are abusing the asylum laws; (3) immigrants are going to flood Europe; (4) immigrants ton’t want to adapt etc.

      Since you appear to know so much about how a particular groups are abusing the system, you should share this with knowledge with the appropriate authorities to bring things back to line. But could tell us how many of these people are abusing the system? What about Finns? Why don’t we have any cases of Finns being exposed in public by politicians for siphoning money from welfare? Moreover, you suggest that our authorities must be a bunch of idiots for allowing so many to abuse the system, right?

      The Nuiva manifesto is unworkable because it hinges on assimilation. It is only a very biased view of the wost anti-immigration groups in Finland telling us how they think immigrants should integrate/behave to/in Finland.

      Who said that multiculturalism is Nirvana? You are saying that. No society is perfect never mind those that are culturally diverse. But we can, however, try to make it work. How do you think Finnish society works? Why do you want to apply different rules and laws that you would never accept in a thousand years on others groups?

  21. Yossie

    want to buy edit button… better read what I wrote before posting since it must be a bit hard to understand now -.-

  22. Allan

    quite often, we are even more qualified than the Finn that got the job and yet, we have not been invited to the interview.

    So you saw all the other the Finns’ CVs?

  23. Allan

    you should share this with knowledge with the appropriate authorities to bring things back to line.

    And why do you think PS had a landslide win. Still you oppose the PS while they are trying to do exactly that. Your logic fails, man.

    Moreover, you suggest that our authorities must be a bunch of idiots for allowing so many to abuse the system, right?

    They are, and because they have let the likes of you have a voice in this immigration question.

  24. Martin-Éric

    In my case, I often happen to know someone inside of wherever I apply to and thus later get to hear all the juicy stories as to who got the job, why and how they turned out to be complete imbecils. It then becomes extremely easy for those friends inside the company to claim that I would have done a much better job than whoever the big boss hired.

  25. Yossie

    Enrique

    To me it seems you think ALL immigrants are good honest folk and finns are just racist to think otherwise. Yes I assume there are people abusing the system. Almost 50% of somali mothers are single mothers, we started to get foster children after we started doing DNA tests and most of the “refugees” arent the real refugees according to Genova convention.

    Also Finland just happens to be in far corner of earth, to get here one would had gone through many safe countries so why come here if its not for the all the benefits we give? Estonia gets hardly any refugees since they wont be giving them loads of cash.

    Now obviously finns abuse the system too. My sincere opinion is that welfare system cant hold if people are counting whether to work at all and live on welfare or should I go to work. The system was created to help people between jobs not to be relied for most of your life. Obviously the biggest problems are finns since young people dont seem to have that pride the older generations had about wanting to support themselves rather to humiliating themselves with benefits. Obviously immigrants dont help if they live on welfare too. Let alone these open borden anarchist who would have borders open. Its sure thing we can say good bye to welfare state after that.

    About flooding Europe, I was merely predicting what might happen during this decade. Timeframe is ofcourse a bit short so might not happen that fast, but the truth is there is a lot of unemployed young men in africa and that many of them dont care about their “revolution”, they just want to go to europe.

    Finland and some other countries are not returning the dublin cases back to Greece anymore because they are not capable of handling them anymore, there is calls for integrated refuge policy to ease the burden in the southern europe. Yes I think we are in a way to get flooded over the capability we can take people in.

    I did not say immigrants dont want to adapt, I said there are those who dont want to. There is a difference.

    Now if you call PS or homma forum “the worst anti-immigrant groups” then… yeah.. I think you really have lost the sight of things. The worst groups would want people dead or all immigrants kicked off. PS is nowhere near these whackjob aryan pride jackasses..

    The manifesto allows everyone to retain their culture, language and so on. It just merely states we should not be the ones to pay it. It is no different to any finn leaving to live abroad. No other country is giving them teaching in finnish or money for finnish culture.

    Only time when the manifesto tells immigrants to do something is learning finnish language and dont commit serious crimes. I hardly find this to be outrageous at all… As a foreigner to any coutry, you need to do some bit of assimilation. It just happens its not too convinient if everyone speaks different language and needs to have translator all the time.

    what different laws and rules you think I´m promoting? Not taking all the people here to live if they want? Name one country that lets anyone just to walk in

    Martin-Eric

    I really believe you would understand where I come from when I say positive discrimanation doesnt help. You know how much it sucks when some uncompetent gets chosen because ethnicity. It wont be any diffenrent if we change roles and its some uncomptent immigrant getting the job over more qualified finn. People wont be happy at all.

    • Enrique

      –To me it seems you think ALL immigrants are good honest folk and finns are just racist to think otherwise.

      Where have I made such a statement? Since I have studied/researched immigration, beeen an immigrant and come from a family with a long line of immigrants, I see it as a positive force. It is not perfect like society because it is made up of humans.

    • Enrique

      –I did not say immigrants dont want to adapt, I said there are those who dont want to. There is a difference. Now if you call PS or homma forum “the worst anti-immigrant groups” then… yeah.. I think you really have lost the sight of things. The worst groups would want people dead or all immigrants kicked off. PS is nowhere near these whackjob aryan pride jackasses.

      The Nuiva manifesto and the PS don’t have a plan for immigration in Finland. It is a bit like most issues that they claim to know, like the economy. A lot of hot air but little concrete effective solutions. Their “authorities” on immigration are members of a Nazi-spirited association called Suomen Sisu. I don’t need more evidence to scent where they are coming from politically.

      Do all Finns adapt to your values? What are they by the way? Our society allows us to make choices. The choices we choose are our own and our right – not that of some populist politician scoring points with the voters. Do you seriously go around telling Finns how they should dress, what they should drink and how they should behave in an “ideal Finnish way?” You don’t because it would be something offensive and ridiculous.

    • Enrique

      Yossie, tell me why I should not be worried about a party like the PS? In the first place, they are hostile to everything I respresent: to my identity and place in Finnish society. They are against my children because they come from a multicutlural background. They mock at my relatives, who were refugees and immigrants, and insult my father for marrying a Finn with their racial pseudo-theories. Tell me how should any sane person react to such manifest hostility?

  26. Martin-Éric

    Oh, I know perfectly well what the consequences of PROLONGED positive discrimination are. I was born into a country that has turned positive discrimination into a fine art where no minority group is left behind… or almost. White heterosexual men are systematically eliminated from the recruitment process of any company or government agency that has a positive discrimination policy in place. However, getting back to the word PROLONGED, I clearly remember a tipping point in the early 90’s when the objective of getting more handicaped, immigrants and women into non-traditional careers had been reached and, correspondingly, I told a lot of politicians around me that now would be a good time to discontinue those positive discrimination measures, before every white heterosexual man’s career is permanently over before it even started. I was not heard and, sure enough, most white men of my age that I went to school with ended up doing a LOT of menial jobs and very few had a meaningful career in the end. Now, in our early 40’s, we’ve already become too old to be desirable employees.

    In Finland, these days, practically every positive discrimination program focuses on young people, women the Swedish-speaking minority. What is the side-effect of this? Almost every immigration or minority related topic is dominated by young immigrant women and by somewhat older Swedish-speaking Finnish women. Meanwhile, men simply have no place under the sun, be they native Finns or immigrants.

  27. Yossie

    “Where have I made such a statement? Since I have studied/researched immigration, beeen an immigrant and come from a family with a long line of immigrants, I see it as a positive force. It is not perfect like society because it is made up of humans.”

    That is the feeling what I get when read your comments

    “The Nuiva manifesto and the PS don’t have a plan for immigration in Finland. It is a bit like most issues that they claim to know, like the economy. A lot of hot air but little concrete effective solutions.”

    They did gave some mesures that would help to eliminate the welfare shoppers and punish criminals. Also they wanted to concentrate on finnish education for immigrants and make sure immigrant women are not left out outside the language classes. What kind of plan you would like to have? Does anyone have a solid plan? Anywhere in europe? I dont see other european countries doing too well either.

    “Their “authorities” on immigration are members of a Nazi-spirited association called Suomen Sisu. I don’t need more evidence to scent where they are coming from politically.”

    I do not know how “nazi-spirited” Suomen sisu is or is not and it is not like we can read people’s mind how they really think so we just have look at their actions make conclusions from there. Ofcourse if they start to talk about mass transporting immigrants to death camps then.. dont think they would have a support of 0.0001% in elections. What we can hear now is that they have a more sensible view on things then rather blue-eyed view that finnish politicians have had before.

    “Do all Finns adapt to your values? What are they by the way? Our society allows us to make choices. The choices we choose are our own and our right – not that of some populist politician scoring points with the voters. Do you seriously go around telling Finns how they should dress, what they should drink and how they should behave in an “ideal Finnish way?” You don’t because it would be something offensive and ridiculous.”

    I do not mean that all the immigrants should be eating karelian stew(with pork!) or eat mämmi (I do not eat it myself either). What I meant was that for example we should still be having christmas celebrations in schools and still call it a christmas and not bending over since someone might get offended that we still have some christian traditions while we are not that religious.

    We should not accept polygamy, arranged marriages, mutilation of girls or any other actions that are strickly against our western ethics. Girls should have equal rights and not be forced to live inside the house etc. While these things might be ok for some immigrants back where they come from. Those are not things we want here.

    “Yossie, tell me why I should not be worried about a party like the PS? In the first place, they are hostile to everything I respresent: to my identity and place in Finnish society. They are against my children because they come from a multicutlural background. They mock at my relatives, who were refugees and immigrans, and insult my father for marrying a Finn with their racial pseudo-theories. Tell me how should any sane person react to such manifest hostility?”

    I think there is a lot of demonicing of PS going on. During the election they always asked about Soini’s personal opinion about abortion while it was never any kind of agenda for the party and most certainly its other members.

    I´m sure that while there might be racist out there. In general people in homma forums or in PS would have nothing against you. Once again, most people will question the rights of those that are coming here to live on welfare or commit serious crimes.

    Obviously I dont know the situation of your family but I take your children have live their whole life in Finland or very least most of it at least? And they are finnish citizen? I really really cant see people being against them at all… To me it look like that you have had some bad experience with some racists but dont prejudge all PS voters to be like that.

  28. Allan

    Errr – Martin-Eric, was it you or was it me that just wrote that???

    I mean, if you agree that this “no job for white men” has become a problem, how exactly you try and “sell” it to the Finnish WHM, as they see where it will lead to???

    I mean as you said, the “establishment” is now full of these Swedish-speaking liberal women and their aim to better the world does not quite sit with the meat-eating beer-drinking young Hakkarainen’s who basically are revolting against anything these “flowerhat” women are trying to push through. You know the “hakkarainen” will do double the opposite what a “flowerhat” woman tells him to.

    But I guess you have figured this all out by now.

  29. Allan

    One place that apparently does not need “positive discrimination”
    http://yle.fi/alueet/helsinki/2011/05/suomalaiset_ja_ulkomaalaiset_vangit_tappelivat_keravan_vankilassa_2632296.html

    Believe who will
    Vankilanjohtaja Timo Koivuniemi kertoo, että tapauksen tutkinta on Keravalla kesken. Hän sanoo kuitenkin, että varsinaisesta joukkotappelusta ei ole ollut kyse. Tapaukseen ei näyttäisi myöskään liittyvän etnistä tai rasistista motiivia.

    That the jails are truly multicultural, and there is “no racism”…
    Koivuniemen mukaan kansallisuuteen tai ihonväriin liittyvää vihanpito on jyrkästi kielletty ja puuttumiskynnys tällaisiin jännitteisiin on todella matala. Vankilanjohtaja sanoo, että vankien keskinäistä nujakointia sattuu silloin tällöin, mutta rasistisia tapauksia on tiedossa vain yksi.

    Unless the racism is in the “positive discrimination”
    Keravalla ja Jokelassa noin kolmannes vangeista on ulkomaalaisia. Vantaan vankilassa ulkomaalaisten osuus on noin puolet ja Helsingissä uusista vangeista kahdeksan kymmenestä on ulkomaalaistaustainen.

    Does not look too good from the integration point of view.

  30. Martin-Éric

    In Suomi, it has not yet become a problem, although we are getting awfully close to reaching that tipping point.

    Personally, as a meat-eating heterosexual polyamoric man:

    1) I’m getting sick and tired of seeing all meaningful positions in the immigration sector go to very Finnish women, most of whom are from the Swedish-speaking minority, and whose only experience of immigration issues are with refugees or with prostitution traffic (no, I will NOT call them experts in human trafficking, since they blatantly ignore the moral issues of cheap male labor), whose experience of family reunification issues is limited to helping refugees bring their relatives (blatantly ignoring the trouble that foreign workers or even Finnish citizens have in brining their spouse to Suomi), who basically have zero knowledge of work-motivated migration and whose brain is too small to entertain the idea of entrepreneurship-motivated migration.

    2) I’m also sick and tired to see those Refugee Woman of the Year being toted as role models all while immigrant women who came here as non-refugees and immigrant men in general either get ignored or presumed to be violent unemployed Muslims who abuse their wife.

    There’s also projects everywhere right now to bring more immigrant success stories, both to give role models to immigrants and to offer some positive examples of successful integration to the Finnish majority. Current signs show that most people behind these projects are Swedish-speaking middle-aged women and that the desired role models would be young immigrant women (preferably refugees) with a blatantly colorful skin.

    Despite all the above, I still believe that it’s not to late to reorient positive discrimination programs into a more balanced direction e.g. giving as much priority to bringing men into traditionally feminine professions as to bringing women into traditionally male professions and to stop presuming that the only Finns capable of understanding minority issues are Swedish-speakers. The question remains, is there any political will to stop only pushing for refugee women, young people and Swedish speakers. I’m not sure that there is, but I welcome proofs to the contrary.

  31. Allan

    priority to bringing men into traditionally feminine professions as to bringing women into traditionally male professions

    I actually benefitted from that back in the 1980’s getting “munalisä” for applying to the secretary college… but, the tasa-arvovaltuutettu called it later “unconstitutional” so “positive discrimination” was not allowed to equal the difference into “women’s jobs”…

  32. Martin-Éric

    Allan, please get real. Just because I recognize the dangers of PROLONGED “positive” discrimination doesn’t make me a PS partisan. Besides, I would be disqualified from joining PS just because of their refusal to believe that there is plenty of structural discrimination preventing immigrants from getting any job beyond menial work.

  33. Yossie

    one problem with positive discrimination is that who decides when to stop it? Usually temporary things end up becoming permanent in the end. When some people get benefits, its much harder to remove them as they are already “saavutettu etu”. You told us yourself that it is not easy to thing to remove the benefits of positive discrimination for one group even if the goals have been achieved. Obviously the benefitted group will object and who ever asks for discontinue of it, will be labelled racists and more. That is the danger so I rather not go that way.

  34. Martin-Éric

    No, what I said is that when such priviledges have no curfew date set and when there’s no political will to set one, then they turn into permanent segregation. Right now, men of all ages are the victim of heavy segregation in a variety of laws, politically correct yet morally worng common ides and positive discrimination programs. If you feel that it’s already too late to turn back the tide on favoring women, youths and Swedish speakers, and only IF that condition is met, then the only way out is to also implement programs favoring men, elderlies and Finnish speakers, which ends up balancing things out.

  35. Allan

    Usually temporary things end up becoming permanent in the end.
    Best example of such “temporary” measures is the Finnish car tax.

  36. Allan

    then the only way out is to also implement programs favoring men, elderlies and Finnish speakers, which ends up balancing things out.

    Would the suggestion of not favoring anybody not work out cheaper?

  37. Martin-Éric

    Oh, it would definitely be cheaper, but many interest groups that are already favored by some positive discrimination programs don’t want to loose their exceptional status, so the only way out is to create a niche for every interest group.

  38. Allan

    As said previously “saavutetut edut” and you still claim this “racism” directed at the “exceptional status” groups is not self-caused?

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